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I've just posted on my blog about playing outside of chord changes.

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2014/01/jazz-piano-going-outside.html

The post has examples from and explanations of Charlie Parker, Paul Bley (from his All The Things You Are solo with Sonny Rollins and Coleman Hawkins), Herbie Hancock, and John Coltrane. A longer post about only the Paul Bley ATTYA solo is in the works.

nice article mark.
a + for the "theme of the eulipions" that's a kickass track

Thanx KlInkKlonk! I'm totally w/you on Eulipions!

HH was very brave to superimpose the F#7 over a F maj 7 chord !

Wouldn't it be incredible to attend a Paul Bley or Steve Coleman masterclass on playing free/out ?!

In this promotional on a Steve Coleman masterclass
http://www.jazzspeaks.org/steve-coleman-presents/

he says “You’re just looking at the same thing from a different angle, holding up a magnifying glass to see why things work and why they don’t."

Cus, that's a great link!

Hi Mark
For your last Paul Bley example could you say that he's approaching the C7 via a half step above ?
So the first 3 notes suggest C# maj 7, and the next 3 notes suggest C# min ?

Hi Cus,

Yes of course you could say that.

On the blog, so I can work with the biggest and simplest explanation that' why I say it's a scale that works over C7 and PB has stretched it back over the Abmaj7.

IF you break it down as you've suggested - which again, you can do - then you've got a map with more rather than less streets on it. Which is fine. And if you see it or hear with more ease that way than thats the best way for you to work with it.

And then how Paul Bley heard it is another story too. But that's not an easy one to answer

.... His earlier Newport solo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mjpIXnaqRw is more inside than the studio version we're discussing now. But the studio version comes 6 months after the Newport one (which of course is your original find ...

Another view of that phrase:

He is "playing up on the black keys"... simple analysis.
Now to be more analytic, he is playing A major over Ab major...
And he is pedaling the C# note (bouncing off it) while he contracts the intervals: he plays a melodic 4th, then a 3rd and finally a 2nd before falling into C7...

That's an interesting idea - the black keys do have a feel to them the white keys don't have. But on the other hand Paul Bley had all the benefits (side effects?) of serious classical piano training. Maybe he's a little past feeling out the difference between black and white keys? But even if he is looking for that difference there's an E in that measure. So that difference in feel between black and white keys really isn't all there in this one measure.



Playing that first measure without a chord underneath there's a very strong sense of C# minor. Cus first mentioned that a few posts ago.

There's really nothing in that measure that suggests A major. There's no A, there's no A major triad, there's a D# which isn't in the key of A, there's nothing about A measure in the preceding measure. There's nothing to A major in the following measure. And of course there's no A (the pitch) in those measures.

Play those 4 notes by themselves. They very plausibly could sound like they're saying C#-.



For sure he's emphasising the C#. And it falls, as you describe, to that C7. The sound of it is the C# RESOLVES to the C on the downbeat of the next measure.

That goes to the idea that these two measure are one scale Paul Bley's "stretched" across them. It's a common technique. Which scale it is depends on what anyone hears the first note of the scale.

But, if a C#-7 chord goes underneath the line in that first measure (and it fits and sounds perfectly fine there). And if a C7 chord is under the next measure, it's pretty easy to hear both measures as C#-7 to C7. Which is a common pattern Herbie Hancock and others, used all the time.

And the classic jazz intro for this tune (from Charlie Parker and bebop) is a vamp on C#-7 to C7. It would make a lot of sense that Paul Bley would be hearing that vamp. He plays a "version" of it out in front of the tune as the intro.

For sure this is one of the great solos in jazz.

Hope this is helpful ...

grrrr ... not to be ungrateful but the transcriptions for this solo - they're helpful for sure but they have some glitches ... but without the transcription, glitches or not, we couldn't have the discussion!! so ...

hey mark. I remember that parker phrase from a barry harris vid I found.. Did you attend Barry Harris masterclasses? Im curious about this concept of colouring chords http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCsw0NjXY1U with the diminshed scale borrowed from, yea from where exactly? the dominant chord of the prevailing chord? cheers

when he says diminished notes he means notes built from a fully-diminished 7th chord chord built on the a leading tone to whatever the chord might be.

if it's Cmaj7 then that leading tone is B and the chord he's talking about is B D F Ab. If it's in the key of C but the chord is a Dm7 then he's talking about C# E G Bb.

When he plays ATTYA in that clip and says "diminished notes" he means for each chord he's going to choose the appropriate fully dim 7th chord as a place to get some dissonant notes. so the opening chord is Fm which goes in the next measure to Bbm (first two measures of the tune)

He'll take "diminished" notes for the Fm from E G Bb Db (E fully dim7) and for the Bb from A C Eb Gb (A fully dim).

The "dim" notes he pulls for the Fm are G in the RH and E in the LH. The "dim" notes for Bb are, I think, C in the RH and A in the LH. In both cases those dim notes are a 10th apart.

See if you can figure out how those 10ths (the dim notes) resolve for each chord. Hint: You can probably hear those voices go down by step (not up ...

Hope this helps ...

Sooner or later someone will say well that's just a 9th and a maj7 that's been stuck into both chords. And that's right. But BH, so he can get the moving lines probably doesn't describe them that way. Which is why he says "diminished" notes.

I've never "got" BH's diminished theory. Still can't figure it out what he means . . . :-)

The chord B D F Ab in the key of C is a G7(b9) to me (coming from classical theory, that's how I hear also it) a dim-chord is an incomplete dominant chord.

So the C# E G Bb in D minor is a A7(b9).

Chris, I hear what you're describing all the time. I'll try to re-explain that diminished thing again. What he means by it.

That chord you call G7b9 - because it has B D F Ab. with G as a root. G7b9. Yes, that's there. It exists. We hear it like that. I'm with you.

BUT. If you conceptualise that chord as B D F Ab - forget the G for now - you actually could stick 4 different roots underneath it: G, Bb, Db, and E.

So we don't have one single domb9. We've got 4 of them. G7b9 Bb7b9 Db7b9 E7b9.

They're related to each other. They belong to the same "family." Later in the BH system you get to zip around with them through keys a min3rd away from each other.

So, ake the G out the picture and the chord can resolve to more places. And, actually, that's what you find in 19th century classical music where fully dim7 chords really get banged on a lot ... in Wagner, for example. That music plays on the fact that a fully dim 7 chord can become a dominant in 4 different keys.

But, again, that's for later in the BH system. The immediate thing he wants to do is get "diminished" notes and add them into whatever the base chord is. The reason he wants to do that is he needs notes that imply motion.

In classical theory the motion notes are simply dissonances. They resolve. In jazz they're usually 9, 11, 13. If you remember, in classical theory, 6ths and 7ths on a chord are dissonant as well.

A concrete example: Cmaj7. From B D F Ab could grab D F and Ab. Those are the "diminished notes that go along with that chord. It doesn't mean those are the only other notes you can add. It's just that right now, those are the "diminished" notes.

BUT. In Barry Harris land, Cmaj6 - and NOT Cmaj7 - is the fundamental chord. The reason is if you take his scale, which is C D E F G G# A B and pull out every other note you have two chords. C E G A (C6) and D B F Ab (D dim7, which for BH purposes is the same as B dim7)

If C6 is the fundamental chord than any of those notes in the B dim 7 chord - B D F Ab - are "diminished" notes.

BH says use any of those diminished notes where ever you want them. And then resolve them.

If we have a chord like C E B. It's a simple Cmaj7 chord. No mysteries there. But in BH land that chord actually needs to move a little. The motion is the B resolves to A. So C E B resolves to C E A.

Then in BH land you might dress that chord up so it's C E B D. No mysteries there, either. It's a simple Cmaj7 w/a 9th.

BUT. BH is seeing that B and the D as diminished notes that want to move. Even as I write this, I imagine someone saying: Wait! That's just a 7th and a 9th. They can just stay where there are! ... Well, they can but that's not how BH world works! It's actually not how classical "classical" theory - common practice theory - works either. In CPT 7 and 9 are dissonances. PREPARE SUSPEND RESOLVE. Or treat them as passing tones.

Back to the example. The simple resolution is C E B D -> C E A C. B resolves down by step to A. D resolves down by step to C. That's basic voice leading counterpoint stuff.

Let's dress the example up a little more.

C B E G#. The B and the G# are the diminished notes. The resolution would be C B E G# -> C A E A. OR. C B E G# -> C C E G#. That's also basic voice leading stuff.

All The Things You Are. The first chord. It's F-7. But the "hip" way to play, at least by those who used to use the word "hip" is F-maj7. And the melody note of course is Ab.

Barry Harris says in the video something like "let's grab diminished notes!" He instinctively grabs G and E as the diminished notes. Because those notes are coming out, in his world, from E G Bb Db and in his world that's the chord that gets superimposed on top of Fm.

So F and E are played in the left hand. The RH gets G and Ab (played as a minor 2nd). If you do this at the piano voice it so the G is a 10th higher than the E. You'll probably hear the G is screaming to resolve down to F!

What's going to happen is G resolves down to F and E resolves down to D (simultaneously). And then BH takes it a step further. He brings the F down to E and the D down to C# (simultaneously). Because E and C# are diminished notes. And then resolves those two notes up (simultaneously) by step. So C# and E come back to D and F.

One more example.

C7. The notes are (LH) C & Bb and (RH) E & G.

C Bb E G.


The BH "dim" notes for that chord are from B fully dim7 (B D F Ab). That dim notes always come from a chord that's a 1/2 step below the root.


Let's put some diminished notes in that chord and then resolve them.


C B F Ab -> C Bb E G

So that's some of the basic stuff of the system ... Then it's just a question of how far in anyone wants to go. And then some prefer a different system ....

I hope I clarified it rather than making it muddier!!!

Interesting because, prior to reading this, I played F-maj7 tonight (maybe I heard it this way) and it sounded too "outside" for the beginning chord. I had the E in the RH.
Will try out tomorrow with E in the LH.

Actually, starting on the maj 7th for whatever chord quality whether maj, min or dom, could potentially be a nice way for creating an outside sound, do you agree ?

Hi Cus,

Yes, I do agree w/you. It's a standard bebop sound. But the fakebooks don't always catch it. So often but not always where the chord could be F-maj7 the fakebook just says F-7.

And even it doesn't seem that F-maj7 should be the chord it can always resolve down to F-7. And F-7 can always go to F-6. ... to make moving lines rather than static chords.

So basically a dim chord with the original chord note in the bass? for the fm in attya you can play: (from bottom) : F (bass note) A C# E (from E dim scale OR does it have to be tones from the Edim CHORD alone?) and Ab (melody note) and reslove that to Bb Eb Ab within the same meassure for good voice lead. Sorry if this sounds confusing, I only have internet for 1 hour, cheers and thanks

Klink,

I'm not totally sure what you're spelling or describing but I think I know what you're asking .... maybe ...

So, yes, if F is in the bass the diminished 7th chord for that chord is going to be E G Bb Db.

All of those notes are fine to use. But in practice probably either 1, 2, or 3 of them get added at once.

Here's an example.

In your LH play F and E (a major 7th). In your RH play G and Ab (a minor 2nd).

Let's resolve those hands one at a time.

First the LH. F E -> F D. Hold the F and resolve the E down to D.

Then the RH. G Ab -> F Ab. Hold the Ab and resolve the G down to F.

Now put the two hands together and play it.

RH
Ab -> Ab
G -> F


LH
E -> D
F -> F

Hi Mark
I had somehow thought that the F-maj7 was a relatively recent sound, but it seems like it's been around for a while.

I tried the maj 7 to b7 to 6 LH movement for the C min 7 chord. The moving line does sound good.

Cus. Excellent! Glad that works!

Heres' a version of the 1st three measures. The 1st measure is pretty much the notes BH plays in the vid. The 2nd & 3rd measures aren't literal.

About the 1st measure: The basic notes come from Fm6. Anything that's not's part of an Fm6 chord is a "diminished" note. You can see how BH steps from dissonances to consonances and vice versa in that measure.

In the 2nd measure the C and A (on the downbeat of the measure) are the dim notes. They resolve ...

In the 3rd measure the D natural is a dim note. it resolves (to Db) which is part of Eb7.




The F-maj7 sound... it's one of the bebop "sounds." And yes, it can sound harsh at first!

... so just to make sure the context is clear - those 3 measures are ATTYA in a style that BH "might" demonstrate.

Hey Mark, I had a hole in my understanding of what BH meant but you just filled it. So just a leading tone to the current chord.

For example, when doing Footprints I'm doing B dim on C-. But I stayed with that the whole time. If I'm understanding you right, I should be doing E Dim on the F-?

After using this a bit, I'm understanding that these are tension raising maneuvers and they give some sort of logic for doing it outside of just dominants. True?

I watched some video where someone said that Herbie uses Min-Major scale (which is aug instead of dim). I suppose if you think about it more closely, maybe we're putting in a lot of theory to explain why and how they go out when it's just the occasional half-step, or is it a question of "which" half-step?

For example, if you're at an approach note on the offbeat and you HOLD it through the downbeat, then in essence, you've gone out and the sophisticated theoretical explanations may not be what the player was thinking. I tried practicing like this and it frankly started to sound like Paul Bley (I didn't realize this until I heard Paul Bley do it a few times).