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This is my first post to these forums, and I'm hoping I'll get some perspective and answers to something I've been agonizing for for a while.

I learned piano on a Yamaha U3, and it's a very fine instrument. I also finished my Grade 8 practical at the Royal Conservatory of Music and actually play at probably more a Grade 9-10 level, so I'd consider myself at a fairly advanced level.

Due to my living situation, it's completely impractical to move the U3 around, and I've left it at my parents' home. I therefore need something more portable that doesn't take much space (i.e. can be moved by one person, this is very critical!) but as authentic in feel as possible without starting to delve into the price range of a real piano. Part of this drive towards authenticity is the ability to play through Synthogy Ivory. A corollary to that is that I'd like to have the flexibility to play some more synthy sounds despite the piano action.

In my many searches, I've narrowed my search down to the Yamaha CP300 and the Roland RD-700GX. Both actually feel very nice to me. Without going into details, I basically want to enumerate the other factors that are swaying me in one direction versus another.

1. MIDI commands - if I'm going to play through Synthogy Ivory, I've heard that the CP300 doesn't send all MIDI commands and particularly aftertouch. Without getting into the aftertouch argument, I'm concerned that this will affect authenticity. I don't believe the Roland has this issue. In the end, does either of these keyboards have issues with MIDI commands other than what I've mentioned and/or can have those issues overcome in some way?
2. Una Corda and Sostenuto Pedal Inputs - the CP300 has them, but the Roland has FC1 and FC2. Can you put a set of three pedals, including the damper, into the RD700GX and have it interpret them in its native Expressive Grand and/or send them over MIDI?
3. Keybed Durability - since I intend to be playing at least an hour a day on average, I need something that'll last. The RD700GX had key wear issues that greatly concerned me, and I hear conflicting reports of the resolution of this problem. The CP300 floor model that I tried seemed to have a faulty A two octaves above C after I did a "glissando" a few times. The Roland actually felt much better and more like a real piano in this regard, by the way. Is there any guidance on this that can be given?

Factors that aren't factors, in my opinion, or that can be taken care of in other ways: weight (I can lift the CP300's 71 lbs vs. 55), sequencer (I'd run MIDI into my computer anyway), built-in speakers (I have speakers and amps with a wide enough frequency range to handle the full piano range), inputs and thrus (mixer), built-in sounds (external generation, though that DX-7 sound on the CP300 is very very tempting).

That's pretty much it, but I'd like to throw an additional monkey wrench into the works, and that's to ask whether I really should consider a digital piano anyway, like a Yamaha CLP with GH3 or wooden keys, or the Roland HP series. I tried the V-piano and wasn't impressed by the sound, though I was impressed by the modeling technology). I'd love to get my hands on an original Kawai MP8 but they've all been supplanted by the MP8-II which is apparently not as good.

Your help or guidance is greatly appreciated in advance.

As you note, the CP-300 is rather large, and considerably heavier than the RD-700GX. Depending on your build, you may be able to lift it on your own, however I suspect moving the Yamaha will require two people. With this in mind, the Roland is perhaps the more suitable instrument.



While it is true that a number of refinements were made to the AWA Grand PRO II action (as used in the MP8II and current generation of CA Series instruments), I would still recommend visiting a KAWAI dealer to play-test the action for yourself. User forums such as Piano World are a tremendous resource for sharing information and opinion, however nothing really beats experiencing playing an instrument with your own fingers.

Kind regards,
James
x

and note that yamaha and roland sounds termendously different, give yourself few-hour test on each model.

IMO stage pianos are best for gigging musicians, home pianos - pedals built into case - are best for people who'll be playing at home. Yes you'd probably need help moving a home piano to a new apartment, but how often to you move?

I own/have owned two Yamaha stage pianos. Yammy's actions have a good reputation for feel and reliability, and their warranty service is outstanding. I haven't played the newer ones, but am surprised to hear about that faulty A. Maybe try another one. If it does the same thing, there's a problem that hasn't yet been reported on PW.

With problems, it's difficult to know whether it pertains to one of a small series or is a problem with the model. Wish I could offer guidance.

I think that the touch is a little lighter on the MP8-II.

There is no perfect DP or even one which is objectively better on all counts. All you can do is audition as many as you can get your mitts on and decide which package is most likely to be the one that you can live with.

Kawai James - agreed, there's no substitute to playing what's out there. I guess my big thing is that I need a bit of a heavier feel in order to reproduce the dynamics I need.

henrik - I've played both for a couple of hours each, and though I'm more partial to the Yamaha sound, I think I'm actually warming up to the RD700GX action. Again - the sound is one thing that I could take care of externally, but neither sounds particularly worse than the other to the point where I'd exclude it.

FogVilleLad - I've moved a lot. Way too much, in fact. In the last ten years, I've moved a total of eight times for many reasons, some good and some bad. When you're paying by the pound for a move, and when you simply can't buy nice furniture because you know the movers will utterly trash or scratch it, you realize quickly there's no point in investing in a furniture-like piano. Had I moved with a regular digital piano all those times, the thing would've been hacked to pieces. At the end of the day, the instrument needs to be able to go in a hard shell case just like my bass guitar. The Roland HP-207 would definitely be a top choice for me, but I'm actually trying to see if I can replicate its basic piano function, including pedals, with the RD700GX. If I can do that, and know that my keybed won't wear down, I think it'll be a big decision influence for me.

Thanks again for jumping in on the thread so quickly!

RD700GX has sustain, sostenuto, half damper effect. What is most "urgent" and "important" is all there in RD700GX.

I read that Roland is giving 3-year warranty for RD700GX, so no worries about the keybed !

RD700GX is beautiful and sexy instrument. I trust you will love it. Beautiful instrument will give you inspiration to play.

I have a friend who plays Ivory Italian through his CP300. He's never mentioned problems. I will ask him.

On the stage / home piano question, I look at it a little differently from Fogville. To me the determinant should be the feature set and the panel layout. For example, is there a teaching function on a home piano that you will never use? Is there a tone wheel extending the length of a stage board that you will never use? Is the menu easy to navigate? Are the controls intuitive and the display big enough to see easily while playing? Are there blinking LEDs with certain functions that will drive you batty? (at least they do me!)



Amen! No perfect player either. The trick is to match the imperfections of each. Try all you can. To get the best potential sound, use good headphones. If you're not going to use the onboard speakers anyway and you can't bring your own speakers to the shop, carry the same good phones with you wherever you go. And don't rule out the MP8 II. Give it a shot.

pianodilemma, my response was colored by my own experience - same building since '69, same apartment since '80. I'm officially deferring to t-dot's criteria on this one, with a strong seconding of taking the best 'phones that budget permits with you when auditioning. Sennheiser's HD 600's are pricey but, IMO, well worth it. This model has a "flat" response - no frequencies exaggerated.

Studio quality 'phones are also a lovely adjunct to software pianos and they will let you experience the true character of a DP's included sounds.

I don't understand your first factor. The CP300 does not send all MIDI commands, that's true, but which instrument does? There's are many that are irrelevant to a piano. I didn't think any DPs had aftertouch, but some googling proved otherwise. Aftertouch can be useful for e.g. violin sounds, but why would you be concerned about it with regards to the Ivory sound samples. Surely they don't do anything with the aftertouch command anyway, right? Or maybe they do, but an acoustic piano has no aftertouch so authenticity should not be a concern.

Please don't do that. It's good to consider from all angles since each player will find some criteria important and others irrelevant. Pedals (as you mentioned) are important to many. Warranty is one that I forgot to mention. Reading Henrik's comment reminded me of warranty.



Henrik is posting from Malaysia. I'm not questioning what he says. But in the US, Roland supports its keyboard products differently. Here is the latest info from their warranty support page.

Roland keyboards 1 yr. parts 90 days labor

V-Piano 3 yrs. parts 1 yr. labor

Home Pianos (HP- & KR-series not specifically listed below, RK-100, RK-500)* 3 yrs. parts 1 yr. labor

Home Pianos (C-30, DP-990, HP-201, HP-203, HP-207, HPi-6s, HPi-7s, KR-103, KR-105, KR-107, KR-111, KR-115, KR-115M, KR-117M, LX-10, RG-1, RG-3, RG-3M, RG-7, RM-700, RP-101)* 5 yrs. parts 1 yr labor

(* asterisk refers to in-home service)

As you can see, Roland warranty terms in the US strongly favor the home piano lines. For FP, GX and other stage pianos, you only get the one year parts and 90 days labor. I asked a Roland US guy about the disparity once. He said it was not a reflection of Roland's level of confidence in the different products, just the reality of the abuse that gigging pianos get. Those would include packing, moving, setting up, taking down, and electrical mishaps that may occur at a venue. Even if you don't do any of that, you still get stuck with a pretty short warranty.

FogVilleLAd,

I hope you get out of the building soon to get some fresh air. Forty-nine years is too long.

All,

Thanks very much again for giving your feedback.

On point 1, MIDI commands are really a semantics issue for when I start using other devices with the keyboard. For an external piano, it seems like it will be just fine.

On point 2, I actually tried the damper in the RD700GX in the other two slots at Guitar Center. Seemed to work just fine as a sostenuto and una corda, so that issue can be put to rest.

On point 3, I don't think the keybed durability should be a big issue. The main thing is, as with all instruments, to treat them like a lady - gently and with respect - and they'll return the favor in kind.

So it comes down to two last points for me -

1. Feel/Action - and for which nobody but me will be able to assess, although I doubt I would be unhappy no matter what the choice as they're pretty close in many respects.
2. Warranty - Yamaha gives three years parts and labor. That's pretty significant considering that Roland only gives 1 year and 90 days on labor too.

The CP300 is also about $300 less expensive than the RD700GX.

FogvilleLad - I was actually thinking about getting the HD650s! The 800s would be even better, but they're almost the same cost as a stage piano!

Thanks again all, thoughts and comments appreciated.

I've made my decision, and it's not an easy one but it's one I think is best.

I'm not buying either the CP300 or the RD700GX.

In fact, at this point in time, I'm not happy with any of the stage piano choices since an acoustic piano is what I'm used to and I can't have one.

The RD700GX is, based on everything I've read, a risky purchase. I've seen too many people complaining about the keybed, keywear issues, and general durability. I simply can't find the same level of negative comments on the CP300, though it's not without its faults. Even if the formulation has been "corrected" in newer instruments, does that mean that I'm going to be replacing the keybed in five years instead of three months? If I'm spending $2500 on a professional-level instrument, it's my expectation that it can last for many years without major service or chronic or ongoing problems. I also think that this is reflected in Roland's abysmal warranty policy. It's inexcusable that Yamaha's older instrument has a full three year parts and labor warranty when Roland's is much less. I used to lust after a DX-7 when I was growing up, but it was far too expensive. And yet, some of these DX-7s are still going after twenty years. If Roland's product management happens to read this thread, you need to fix these problems and restore people's confidence in your products, as well as stand behind them in a critically important US market. The RD700GX seems nothing like the Rolands of old, many of which are still going after over a decade.

This leaves me with the Yamaha CP300. I really do like the instrument, but I come back to something I mentioned at the beginning of the thread, and that's how it feels in my hands. When I played the CLP240 with GH3, or the CLP370 with NW, there was a noticeable difference to me. Even if it's not huge, it's still noticeable enough that it makes me want to go for that type of keybed. In fairness to the Roland, the PHA II is actually similar in quality of feel (though still different) to GH3 and NW. I've seen all sorts of rumors of updates to the 3+ year old CP300, and it seems like an update is due soon since there is a gap between the CP300 and the RD700GX on paper in some areas. Many rumors leading up to Winter NAMM'09 and some other things I've read seem to corroborate this update coming. I do actually love Yamaha in general, most probably because I grew up on one. I'm just going to wait for the one that meets my needs. And to Yamaha's product management if they read this: please hurry up!

As Geddy Lee once wailed, if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. And I most certainly have. My folks taught me to be patient, and I think it will pay off in the end.

Thanks again to everyone for your help.

Best buy is having a sale on the Roland RD-700GX. $1800.

i'm guessing CP300 replacement would come out either later this year or early next year. i hope the new one would have at least GH3 action, which so far Yamaha hasn't put on any of its stage pianos.

btw, Yamaha DP's quality is evident, especially its middle to upper level models. my pf500 (similar to P250) has been used for about 4 years and so far no problem ever occurred and played still like new.

I know I'm coming here late, but here is a different opinion on that statement:

I own a Roland RD700SX, which is essentially the same as the GX, which is a minor upgrade to the SX.

I am a gigging musician, and have used this piano for about 5 years on many many gigs, loaded it and unloaded it from van to stage and back again countless times on road trips, and it has never failed me or given any problems whatsoever.

The keybed is fine...it is a little worn, but anything mechanical, including an acoustic piano or a Yamaha digital, will wear with constant usage.

If you listen to my music on my webpage, you will see that I am not necessarily a gentle player.

ps...all that music was recorded using the Roland, either using its internal sounds, or via microphone from the audience.