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Dear Forumites, I hope you find this useful.

Background: I'm a professional pianist/teacher. There is no doubt that in an ideal world we'd all like to live in a grand mansion with a room big and tall enough to house a Steinway grand. But we don't. Hence we all need to compromise. With baby grands, uprights, digitals. I am constantly asked by parents what digital they should buy. Often they live in flats, have uncompromising neighbours and digitals are the only option.

So... I'm on the never ending quest to find a digital piano which will provide a budding pianist with an instrument which will help them develop as far as possible as a pianist.

How do the new CLP480 and CLP 470 fit the bill?


CLP 480:

- Keyboard: ok, nothing special, basically the same keyboard as the 380. I'm disappointed that Yamaha hasn't used the same keyboard they use for the N1-3, given that the AvantGrand is now old technology. The only reason I can think of for not doing this is to keep up sales of the N3.

- Sound: for all the buhaaa about the Real Grand Expression sound engine I didn't notice any difference compared to the CLP 380. The sound is still very artificial (but not as artificial as Roland sounds) and very far from the sound on the AvantGrand N3. What they have done is add a really annoying vibration (through the soundboard speaker) which accompanies each key press. I think this is supposed to simulate the vibrations on a "real" piano. As far as I can tell it's no more than a gymmick, and incredibly annoying if you're used to playing a "real" piano and know what tipe of vibrations to expect.

String resonance: very important if you're playing 20th century pieces. All but absent. Yes it's there in theory (barely audible) but does not act as you would expect on a real piano and even with the setting at the maximum is barely perceptible. Not as good even as Roland's mathematically modelled resonance.

CLP 470:

Basically a crippled 480. Has an old-fashioned and ugly looking digital watch-like display reminiscent of something from the 70s, very obviously put there to encourace the consumer to splash out for the almost identical but prettier more expensive model. Soundwise identical except the speakers are less powerful and doesn't have the soundboard speakers.

Conclusion:

Recommendation to piano students as a practice instrument: I would recommend the CLP 470 to my pupils who cannot, for practical reasons like unsupportive neighbors/family, play an acoustic instrument. The 480 does not warrant the price premium. The bigger speakers are pointless: it still does not sound anything like a real instrument being far from even the semi-realism of the AvantGrand. If you're getting a digital to practice, you should be practicing with headphones. If you're practicing without headphones and no-one is complaining, you should be getting an acoustic instrument.

On a separate note, I'm annoyed at Yamaha for not just dumping the N3 and transferring the AvantGrand technology to the top of the range CLP series given that AvantGrand technology is no longer new. This would have made a huge difference and given them serious competitive advantage. At the moment the N3 is far too expensive for a piano student (if parents can afford it they don't live in the sort of house which would have problem neighbours if they bought a baby grand piano instead), while the CLP 480 is nothing special compared to the CLP 380. And I wish companies would price their top-of the range models correctly instead of issuing crippled "next-in-range" models such as the 470.

Nice and interesting review. Thank you very much.

I've already read other comments on 470/480 and they all don't encourage the purchase.

I hope that CLP 380 will be sold with some discount now and it would become a more interesting deal.

When did you see and play these models in the UK?

Forsyths in Manchester last week. They have the 480, 470 and also a N3 currently on display.

I'd be interested to hear your take on how the $999 Yamaha P155 compares to the mid range CLP series. My opinion is that is's basically the same thing but at 1/3rd the price. Which says that Yamaha, for the price charged should be using some different technology in the CLPs.

hi! thx for this long review.... seams those new DP don't really match your expectations for such product.

But the question is: how does it compare with DP from other brands AT THE SAME PRICE?

I'm probably have to choose a piano for my wife this year.... my budget is arround the price of the CLP470.

I'll probably choose a DP, because it will be very difficult to enter an acoustic piano into my house (pass the door or window...because of the configuration of my house), and a few other reasons (allow my wife to practice with headset....), even if this is not sure. Moreover, for such limited budget, i'm affraid you cannot expect anything great amoug acoustic pianos.

So the question is more: Yam CLP470 or other DP for the same price range (Kawai CA63, Roland, kurlweiz....)?

Isn't it odd how consummers shop. It applies to everything, pianos, cameras,... First hey set a budget then, determined to spend every bit of that money look for the best gadget in that price class.

You think a better plan would be to write down what you need and then look for the lowest priced gadget that just meets those stated needs.

What would happen if engineers and architects did the same. You get a phone call like "Hey good news we found a way to use up the entire budget. Nothing left over."

If yu take apart almost any mid-rang bit of consumer electronics what you find is that within a range of (say) DVD players they will all use the same "guts" but you see on the lower end models they simply have not install the switches on the circuit board so the cheaper unit has no way to access the high end functions. Obviously it costs only the price of a buton to enable the feature. Why? Because Sony and others know that a consumer walks into a store with a price in mind and will only buy if he finds a product at that price point. It's silly to shop that way but everyone does it.

Mostly the best deal is to buy the lowest priced product in a series. These will have the lowest margin for the seller and are the best deal unless you really need one of the features to be enabled then move up the line but only that far.

Apply this to Yamaha digital pianos. Don't start with a price. Start with a list of "must have" features. Which keys do you want? GH or GH3 or maybe you like GHS. Pick the kind of sound and so on. then move up the line until you get all of them.

whats the sound like on the CLP 470? is it anywhere near the standard of the excellent 380 sound? Does it go loud and the sound envelop you etc..?

mwf - I wouldn't say the 380 has an "excellent" sound. It sounds more piano-like than the Rolands but is far from excellent. The 470/480 sound very similar to the 380, and like the 380 have noticeable distortions and "wrong" sounding regions. As I said before, To me the best available sound is currently in the AvantGrand N3, the 470/480 falls way behind compared to the AvantGrand.

My teahcer has a grand and a high end clavinova that i play if the grand is out of tune (a few times per year). It is better than the out of tune grand but I agree the resonance is not there. At home my CP 33 hooked to Synthogy Ivory puts it to shame, though the CLP action is better. Why Yahama does not place a high end processor with resinance modeling and a multigig sound bank in their higher end Clavinovas mystifies me.

Yeah well a lot of people dont have that kind of money to get an Avantgrand, I say the CLP380 does indeed have excellent sound, I think you are way over critical if I may say and very negative towards any piano apart from a really expensive digital or a real acoustic. I can tell you now the CLP380 was hands down a better piano than a lot of acoustic uprights I have played on over the years, better action, tone and sound. I read everything you wrote above and I just dont understand how anyone can be so negative and hyper critical towards the more affordable digital pianos. I really dont like what you have put, not contributing anymore to your thread, had enough to be honest.

Which Roland did you try to say the CLP-380 sounds more piano-like ???

The sound of the CLP-380 is far from excellent... ???

I think that in your mind, everything that is not an AvantGrand N3 is not worth it, so why bother ?

Add me to the ranks of the mystified. Top dollar should get top sound generation technology, particularly when that's supposedly their business.

mwf - ever heared of someone having an opinion different from yours???

cohenfan - I'm not saying "it's not worth it", it depends why you are buying a digital: in the case of many of my students, they are practicing to eventually perform in public on a high-end acoustic instrument but for practical reasons cannot have an acoustic in the house, and cannot afford an AvantGrand; in this case a 470 is "worth it" to them; for others an Arius is "worth it".

I dont like your attitude thats all, one does not have to spend a fortune on a piano to progress and develop as a musician, its does not matter what piano they learn on, a Yamaha P85 worth £400 or whatever would do, wouldnt like to know what you think of something that cheap for your students, I cant imagine for a second you would let them learn on one of them. wouldnt be good enough would it? All I am saying is there is no point coming on a digital forum and acting like your an anti-digital player, you are only interested in hugely expensive digital pianos or acoustic. Whats your idea of a high end acoustic instrument I wonder, as if it makes a world of difference to a players talents

I must add, that is the most pointless review for anyone interested in a CLP400 series piano, namely the 470/480 - tell me what you expect anyone to gain from your ridiculously over the top cynical review you have wrote above... there is not one positive aspect about the pianos, they are complete rubbish, the 470 will do, its a last resort, dont get the 480 as its rubbish also and does not sound like a piano anyway, even though its over £3000 it does not sound like a piano ...ok.

So again I ask what the heck was the point in your review, what has anyone gained from your highly respectable and professional opinion, you sound like a sales rep from Kawai to be honest the way youre talking.

you could at least try to be helpful in a digital piano forum, not just come here to tell everyone how awful digital pianos are.

Well, I would argue that mdb2303 is entitled to his or her opinion. I have yet to play the new CLP-400 range, however the CLP-370/CLP-380 were very good instruments, so I expect the improvements made to the new Clavinova models will be appreciated by consumers.

Whether or not the flagship Clavinova is as good as the AvantGrand is a moot point. There's a large price differential between the two product ranges, which obviously affects the keyboard and sound technology used. This is simple economics.

That being said, if mdb2303 was not overly impress by the CLP-470/CLP-480, I'm also somewhat curious as to which digital pianos he/she would recommend to pupils' parents?

Cheers,
James
x

mwf: I see nothing odd about the OP's review. It was far from comprehensive, but it was hardly "over-the-top cynical".

Clavinova upgrade, from my view, it's just like the automobile manufactures perform upgrade for their product lines every year.
You can't expect every year's upgrade can bring a completely new design, and technology. For example, it's not possible to see BMW bring the F1 engines on to M3, or Porsche implement the 2006 Carrera GT's V10 into the next year Boxster.

The new model doesn't bring a surprise to the market doesn't equal to the product line is bad.

The transformation of technology is not a few paper work, think about blutooth, I saw this technology long long time ago, but it took a long long time for this technology to become popular (practical on the technology side). I believe the curves for the digital piano are same.

mdb2303, have you try some other DP in the same pricerange as CLP 470 or 480, to compare comparable products? If yes, what can you tell us about this?

Of course, it would be fantastic to get the quality of an Avantgrand in the Clavinova CLP series, but i'm affraid this can only be a dream, because the price range is not the same at all.

Second question: as you seams to particulary appreciate the quality of real acoustic Grand Pianos, can you detail your opinion about this choise: a CLP 470 is around 2200 euros, and is presented by Yamaha as a relatively high end DP (not very high end as Avantgrand, but not a 500$ toy). For the same price, in the "acoustic" world, you can only expect to get a very low-end, and probably-second hand piano. So, in such situation, what product can you advice and why?