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Another day, another conflicted "can't try these because no one stocks 'em" shopper...

I'm looking for a portable DP, both for dragging on extended trips, e.g. road trips and holidays, and eventually for playing out in piano/EP/organ jazz-angled ensembles. I'm selling an SV-1 88 (unhappy with piano samples' relation to RH3 action, as well as the second-string organ sounds) and looking to spend anywhere from $1,500 to $2,500. I have an MP10 at home, so this would either be a supplemental board (like the E3 HP) or just something at the ready for travel/gigs.

The NP88's appealing for the fantastic piano features, EP sounds, and weight, but I'm nervous about the potential lightness/insubstantiality of the Fatar action, as well as the complete lack of organ sounds. There's the Stage 2, true, but it's too heavy and I've heard the action's decidedly non-AP-like (that is, a compromise for those who want light-action playing for organ).

The FP-7F's certainly a contender, but I didn't care much for the RD-700GX PHA II's lighter (to my fingers) action or grit-like Ivory coating (at the time, it was wearing away--presumably they've fixed this with the PHA III?). And the 7F has features I'd probably never use, e.g. the inline mic with vocal harmonizer, the onboard looper, the accompaniment engine, etc. It strikes me as one of these all-in-one boards for keyboardists who want band gigs (without the full band), which I'm definitely not looking for.

The MP6 probably has the most authentically AP-like action (the one board of the three I've laid actual fingers on) in the $1,500-$2,500 range (the MP10 notwithstanding) and has Rhodes, Wurly and B3 sounds, but it weighs 47 lbs (before case and stand). That, and the sound library gets mixed reviews (some compare it to $2,500 boards like the NP88, others complain it's progressed little from the MP5).

The Electro 3 HP's the most intriguing for size, portability and sounds, but also the most off-putting based on reviews of its action (too light, feels cheap, too noisy, etc.). I prefer a heavier, AP-like action (thus my MP10), but I realize going portable's about making tradeoffs, and I'm happy to make them, up to a point. Has anyone played both the SV-1 and Electro 3 HP? Is the E3 HP's hammer action (Fatar-based?) notably lighter than Korg's RH3? Is there an action it's comparable to?

I'm in Michigan, surrounded by Guitar Centers (in Detroit), but none of which carry the above boards in stock to try.

I think most people have found that the difference in feel between the NP88 and the NS2 is pretty subtle... I think most people would either find both acceptable or both unacceptable. But that doesn't address the too-heavy part... I assume you're referring just to the 41 lb 88 key version, since the 76 key version is actually lighter than the NP88 which you find appealing for its weight.



If the MP6's 47 lbs puts you off, and you consider the Stage 2-88 too heavy at 41 lbs, then forget about the 53 lb Roland FP-7f. (Maybe you meant the 36.6 lb 4F?)


I haven't played the 3HP, but from what I've read, the action actually feels kind of heavy, reportedly more so than the NP88. Obviously, actions are so subjective, there's no way to know you'll like it until you play it, so if you need to buy mail-order, make sure you choose a source with a good return policy.

For a weighted action piano under 40 lbs with at least some variety of arguably respectable organ sounds to replace the SV1, I think your only options are the Electro 3 HP, Stage 2-76, Casio PX-3, Yamaha MOX8, Kurzweil SP4-8, Roland FP-4F/RD-300NX. If you're willing to lose the organ (perhaps adding it with a Roland VK-8M or other module), then you can add to the list the Nord Piano, Numa piano, Korg SP-170, Yamaha P95 and CP33. I think the E3HP Is probably the best choice, but if you find you want a heavier action, I think CP33 may be the only option. I think all the other models I mentioned will either feel about the same as the E3HP, or lighter.

EDIT:

I haven't played the E3HP, but now that I think of it, I believe it uses a Fatar TP100 action, which I think is also the action in the Kurzweil SP4-8, Numa Nano, and Numa Piano. The only one of those I've played is the Numa Nano, and I'd put it at about the same heaviness feel as a Casio PX3, a bit heavier feeling IMO than a Yamaha P95 or MOX8 or Korg SP170 (and, by reputation, a Roland FP-4F), definitely heavier than the FP-7F (one of the lightest actions, which I happen to prefer). But it's probably a bit lighter feeling than the RH3, and definitely lighter than the Yamaha CP33 or P155.

The NS 2 88 weighs less then both the FP7-F and the MP6. Although I prefer both the Kawai and Roland action to the the NS2.

Did you try any downloading any of the pianos from the *soundpack 2* with your SV-1 ? They are noticeably better then the originals imo. That said, I think the SV-1 is more suited to certain kinds of jazz, funk, r&b and other pop/rock stylings then that what a traditional pianist type person looks for in a keyboard or dp.

It would be a hard call and very subjective as to sound and action with all those models you've mentioned. I've played them all but not extensively and only in stores.

If it were me looking for a portable solution I'd go with the Nord Piano-that's assuming you can get along with the Nord's pianos of course. They aren't for everyone. Organ for me is a non-issue, I try very hard not to have to do organ.

The E3 HP is very cool for what it is. If you can adjust to 73 keys it might work for you. The action was light but playable. I wouldn't want it as my main gigging DP but for a quick in & out gig or rehearsal it would be fine. I do question long term build quality/durability with regard to that keybed however...

The actions on the three Nords with regard to just piano and their weight I would rate as:
NP, NS2 & E3 HP.

On the MP6 I liked the action more then the piano sound. The AP sounded a bit harsh in my one time playing it in the store.

With the FP7-F, it's the opposite for me. The action still bottoms out a tad too much , similar to the FP7, for my taste. I do like the sound though--although I think the 700NX is a stronger DP all around both in sound and action.

So basically I'm in the same dilemma except for organ and to a lesser degree, eps.--I'm looking for something in the 40 lb range to use as opposed to always lugging my CP5.

For me, for jazz trio/quartet/solo/accompanying singers, the best 88 note 40 lb.ish options I've found are the Nord Piano and the Yamaha P155. I have to decide if the fact that Nord is always developing new piano samples and has the stronger eps is worth over twice the price of what I can get the P155 for...and I actually prefer the yamaha action to the Nord...

I thought the 700NX and FP-7F were supposed to have the same action, no? Also, I thought the basic piano sound was the same, though the 700NX had additional sounds in it?

Hi Matt,

Before you read any further - I'm biased - I'm gonna suggest getting a Nord! I"m in love and I'm still on my honey-moon! Read on if you want to find out why......

Like you, I've on-sold a Korg SV1 (73) as I was unhappy with the AP sounds and more importantly the terrible keybed. Nothing I could do made it work for me. There was a sponginess to the keys that made playing it unpleasant after extended periods of continuous playing. Oh yeah, don't even get me started on the quality of the keyed either!

I shifted from my trusty Roland RD700SX to the Nord Stage 2 about a month ago and to be really honest, I've been extremely surprised at how quickly and easily my fingers and playing style have both adjusted to the new keyboard. Interestingly, I wouldn't say the NS2 action is "lighter" as such, but more that it triggers the sounds sooner. The upside to this is that I can now play passages much more easily and find myself being able to improvise in ways that I wouldn't have previously tried because I'm able to move around the keyboard just that much more quickly.

The action of my NS2 (HA88) I believe is the same as the Electro 3HP (although I stand to be corrected on that). If I were to compare my NS2 to the SV1, they're words apart! Don't ask me why, but when you play a Nord instrument, the ability to connect with the music is incredibly natural. This was something I couldn't ever do with the SV1.

If I were you, I'd be keeping that beautiful MP10. It's arguably got the best DP action out there and I think that trading it in would be too much of a compromise!!!! Add a Nord or maybe the RD300NX (Roland's lighter version of the RD700NX).

The NP88 doesn't have any Organ sounds, but has 88 keys. The Electro has the organ + pianos + ep's + sample playback, but is limited to 73 keys and is mono-timbral. The Stage 2 88 has all of the above, but adds a VA Synth section and can layer and split the keyboard.

A word of caution about trying out Nord instruments - Always ensure the retailer has loaded the instrument with the latest OS and Piano sounds before making a final decision on them.

And as for the AP sounds in the Nord - they speak for themselves............ but remember, I'm smitten...........

My bad, I assumed the NS2 was heavier, but glancing at the specs, as you say, it's actually lighter. It's a different Fatar action (than the NP88's), right?



Yeah, I forgot to add the FP-7F's weight is practically deal-breaker. Anything notably over 50 lbs, I might as well start lugging around the MP10, since 50 to 80's in the same "inconvenience" range for me.



This is pretty much my only reference point for the E3HP's action at this point: Nord User Forum



I'm leaning strongly toward the E3HP, just looking for general reassurance it's not a step down from Korg's RH3 action, which, imperfect as it is, was about the right compromise for me in portable DP hammer-actions.

Fatar TP40 vs. TP100, I believe. The lighter Fatar action is the main reason the E3 HP can weigh so much less than the NS2... though the action does not necessarily feel lighter to play, and some people have said it feels heavier.

Thanks for that anotherscott. Certainly now makes sense why they are so damned light. I had a little go with one in the store, but it was at the wrong height to get a really good idea on how it felt under my fingers.

I did, and yep, the SP2's pianos play better through the RH3 action, but yeah, I'm more a traditional pianist, looking for either a stronger AP-like action (in the 40+ range) or a much ligher board (in the 20+ range) if I'm going to compromise on action.



I'm an amateur Hammond player, so it's not a dealbreaker. I'm just trying to avoid the "eventually have to buy a Hammond SK1" second board scenario, if I want to MMW-out.



The 73-key thing's no problem, actually, as this would be a gig and travel board. The action's feel and longevity's the most important thing.



I've owned a P120, P140, and for the first half of 2010, the P155. My favorite GH action was Yamaha's...until I met Kawai's RM3. My dream portable board would be 73-key E3HP with Kawai's RM3 (or even RH) action.

i think you are looking for something that doesn't exist. my vote would be either the NP88 or the RD300NX- both are light with good AP sounds. i don't think you can have super-authentic action and a light board at the same time. so you have to make a decision.

i said the 300nx without much knowledge of it. unless its action is truly crappy, it gives you some exposure to SN pianos, a light weight for hauling around, and a price at the low end. and it has a more versatile slate of sounds than the NP88, although the NP88 gives you the best AP sounds for a $2100 price point under 40 lbs (lots of options to buy it at that price on ebay- i wouldn't pay the $2800 tag at a lot of the online retailers). the fp7f is an attractive option but seems awfully heavy

Scott, I've played both quite a bit and the 700's action just feels more like a real piano to me.
On the Roland site the 7-F's action spec says "PHA III Ivory Feel-S Keyboard with Escapement". Where the 700 leaves out that *S* in their description of the action. I guess it's a subtle thing they don't want anyone to notice--but I did..

Regarding the sound--yes the 700 does have the extra Studio and Bright samples with 3 variations on each.
But that aside, the sound of the 700 just sounds more vibrant, alive and for the lack of a better description--more hi-fi then the 7-F to me. Like with the Yamaha CP1 & 5 , I'm thinking there is a superior DAC, perhaps an added preamp stage or even something in the processing on the flagship model that gives it that extra edge.

I believe that the NS2 and NP88 use the same Fatar TP40 action, but possibly adjusted slightly differently (and also the Stage 2 has aftertouch). I think the feel is very similar, if not quite identical. The E3HP would feel notably different.


Possibly of note, not a single person who posted in that particular thread had actually played an E3HP *and* any version of a Nord Stage or Nord Piano. And there was very little info there about how heavy the action feels. One person said it was lighter than the "Stage Piano" (not sure what model that's supposed to be), but he said that's just what he read elsewhere. Other comments said it felt lighter than an acoustic piano or a Rhodes, but that doesn't tell you how it compares to any other keyboard (Nord or otherwise), especially when you stop to think that not all acoustic pianos or Rhodes pianos feel the same, some of those have notably lighter or heavier actions than others.

I don't have a specific thread to point to, but I have read that people have thought the 3HP felt heavier than the NP/NS2. It's certainly possible that there's no universal agreement about this. "Heavy" action doesn't really reduce to a single measurement, different attributes can make a board feel light or heavy to someone, and someone could be more tuned in to some aspect of the feeling than another. For example, I've read posts that say the Casio PX3 action is light, and others that say it is heavy. (On this very forum, if I remember correctly.) I think what makes it seem light to some people is that it does not require a lot of force to trigger a note; but what makes it feel heavy to some people is how it behaves over the full travel and/or on the return.

Matt, I'll try to give you a brief rundown on my light(er)weight boards. And I'll preface it by saying that I agree wholeheartedly with anotherscott's analysis, above.

I find the Roland FP-4 (I have not played the FP-4F) to be a good "compromise" board. At around 33lbs it's very totable, but with an action that seems to work well. The pianos are standard Roland pre-SN fare - good, but not stunning; perhaps slightly better for more up-tempo, jazz-oriented pieces due to their lack of pp velocity-level samples. Rhodes/Wurli samples are actually quite good. Organs are non-drawbar samples with two, selectable, rotary types. The main one (888 with 3rd harmonic percussion) is OK for occasional use. A couple of others are useful for non-solo backing. The FX bank is good. You can tweak the thing quite a lot and store the results; in this sense it's much more versatile than the FP-4F and FP-7F.

The FP-7F has the best combination of acoustic piano features I've found in a DP - it just plays beautifully. The Rhodes is meh. The tonewheel organs are quite good, but lack the ability (AFAIK) to be controlled live by MIDI. I prefer a dedicated clonewheel so haven't spent much time with the organs. At around 53lbs, it's no lightweight!

The SP4-7 is a nice little, sturdy, lightweight board. However, it has a compromise action, so if you were to consider Kurzweil, I assume it would be the SP4-8. With OS2 and the additional downloadable PC3 patches, it has a lot of potential. BUT, the acoustic pianos are outperformed by most other boards out there, IMO, including (dare I say) Casio. That's not to say they don't have a nice tone, but the implementation is pretty crude. On the plus side, there are some great EPs in the board, and the REAL ABC organ patch is pretty stellar for a non-dedicated board - it has a lot of muscle. You get a modicum of real-time control over drawbars with the single FX control knob, but you can patch in a midi controller for full functionality. There should be enough space on the SP4-8's panel to place something like a UC33e controller. If you need synths, there are also some very good lead sounds.

The Numa Piano is a little quirky. I had a problem with my first board and I'm waiting for the replacement. For the short time I was with the board I was actually fairly impressed. This packs quite a lot into a 25lbs-or-so package. No, the pianos do not have the sophistication of others (no string or damper resonance, no velocity-level blending, lots of obvious stretching), but they actually sound good, with a wide dynamic range. The updated pianos are pretty bright, so you need to like that kind of sound. The Rhodes is pretty much the best I've heard outside of Nord and Kurzweil, and in some ways I like the way it responds better than the Nord (lots of bark and bell). The Wurli's pretty good, too. Organs are just about usable but not a focus of this board. The main 888 plus percussion patch is OK, but lacks the presence of the Numa Organ. However, there is a rotary sim, and unless organ is a big part of what you do, I wouldn't write off this lightweight contender. The action is not bad, with a very helpful velocity-curve learning feature.

It wouldn't be fair of me to comment much on the MP6 as I've only just received my fixer-upper model. It's not a bad all-rounder, lighter than the FP-7F, and will allow a small amount of drawbar control using zone faders when the updated software is released. You get good action, OK pianos and EPs, plus lots of other sounds in a medium-weight case.

Anyway, hope this helps. I haven't tried a Casio PX-3 or a NE3HP, but both Casio's and Nord's APs irritated me after a while.

Good input, Voxpops. I'll just add a few comments...

IMO, while the Kurzweil pianos are not today's state of the art, I still find them more musical to play than the current Casio PX-130/330/3 piano sounds.

I also love the way the FP-7F plays, but not everyone likes a light action, including the OP.

I think the Numa Piano specs at 30 lbs, FWIW.

I like Kurz EPs better than Nord's. I like Kronos better than either.

The Nord "Bosendorfer" sample is one of my favorite pianos. I was not a big fan of any of their earlier grands (and I haven't heard their newer one). But, personally, I would take that particular Nord piano sound over anything from Korg, Roland, Kurzweil, or Casio. That, some Yamahas, and the Kawai MP10 are the only hardware pianos I've really completely enjoyed the sound of (though the action of the MP10 does not appeal to me). My runner-up pianos would be some Roland and GEM, but they are somehow less natural to me. (Perhaps not coincidentally, those two companies employ less sampling and instead emphasize modeling.)

As for organ patches, my pet peeves are when a company includes an organ-with-percussion patch but it triggers percussion on each key instead of only when no other keys are held down, and when the top and bottom "Leslie" rotors don't change speed at different rates. Those are the two biggest "tells" that make it sound fake.

One quick comment about the NP88's action. It is definitely outperformed by the latest actions from Kawai and Roland. I found that it really doesn't respond well to repetition. If you couple that with the Nord's rather truncated dynamic range, it seems somewhat unsophisticated. I'm not saying it's a bad action, as it feels quite good to play, just that there is quite a gulf between Fatar and others.

The Numa uses the Fatar TP100, which has been designed as an action for lightweight, compact boards. It is not perfect either: playing with a delicate touch can result in a slightly uneven response. But, being able to dial in a velocity curve to suit one's own style of playing makes a significant difference.

The manual states 11.3kg (around 24lbs). I haven't put the thing on scales to check (it wouldn't surprise me if they got it wrong!) but it certainly is easy to carry.

Funny, the spec sheet says 30 lbs.
http://www.numaworld.it/PDF/NumaPianoSpec.pdf

(The spec sheet also includes some spectacular mangling of the English language.)

I think this can be described as the Studiologic Syndrome.

Having owned the NP88 now for 8 months, played extensively the NS2, played the MP6, and just recently the NE3HP, but not the FP-7F, I would rate the MP6 with the best action and the Nords with the best overall sounds. I have played and briefly owned the RD-700NX (same exact action and main piano sound that's inside the FP-7F), and just played on it again at GC, and for piano feel, the RD-700NX and Kawai MP10 are kings in terms of the feel, and both sound very very good.

I have to say I was very impressed with the NE3HP. The action was killer for what it is, and offers so much more control for piano and EPs vs the waterfall action inside my NE3 61. The Long Release and other newer features not in my NE3 61, all the other benefits found in Nord's boards, and the ridiculously light weight of it considering it's still got hammer action make it a very attractive product for a gigging musician.

Incredibly helpful, thank you voxpops, especially for all the fine detail on those boards! I think I'm going to give the Electro 3 HP a try, and if my hands don't fall in love with the action (which I've now been told was modeled after the Mark VII's) then I may take a look at the Numa Piano.