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Hello all,

My 6 year old twin girls have started their piano lessons recently and I am in search for a good Digital Piano that they could use for practicing (and some fun) at home for next few years. I have no experience or knowledge about pianos, other than reading about them in this forum and some other.

After researching over a week or so, I identified the following models.
Casio AP460 - $1499
Casio AP650 - $1899
Kawai CN25 - $1499
Roland RP401R - $1199 (discontinued model, I think)

I have read that CN25 has great key action and 88 key sampling. The key action on the Roland and the Casios are comparable too.

I read some posts that say about abnormal key clicking sounds in Casios and very good reviews otherwise. As for Roland, the down side I read is that it records only one track - not sure what is the limitation of that in my case. The Roland and AP650 have very high number of sounds which I hope will be some fun for kids

Our budget was $1000 initially and now stretched to $1200, but for Casios I can get interest free financing for 3 years on kraftmusic.com (makes it affordable in the long run).

I would appreciate any help in suggesting a good option from these and anything that I might have missed (a Yamaha, may be?)

EDIT: Just noticed Casio PX-780 - $899 - specs seems to be similar to AP650 and will save a ton of money for me; is it any good?

Thanks!

Hi SSK

From your list, to me the Kawai CN25 is the most appealing - there may be some more substantial wiggle room with its price at a dealer as it is about to be replaced by the CN27 - this goes for all of them though, since the annual tradeshow where new models are introduced is just around the corner ( NAMM )

The main differences between Casio AP-650 and PX-780 are the number of maximum polyphony (256 vs 128) and speaker output power. It is also important to go for a DP with LCD display; not all the models you listed have LCD/LED display. Without LCD display, navigating the menus and naming audio files to save will be harder.

I think the Casio PX-780 should be good enough for young kids.

Apparently they are "okay" as brand new. Maybe a Yamaha or Kawai is quieter, but I haven't personally made any comparisons. All digital pianos say "thump" when played.

A Casio (Privia or Celviano, they are the same) may develop some clunky and rattly keys over time if played a lot. It's a common enough problem to have a few threads on the Casio forum:

http://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/topic/6510-px5s-clunking-keys/

I got my (older generation) Privia as second hand, so I can't say what exactly it takes to introduce these problems. And theoretically at least some of them could be fixed by replacing some worn out parts with brand new spare parts. I haven't tried that out yet.

Sinde you have twins, you might look after the Twin Piano mode (pun intended). All Rolands from FP-30 up have it and it allows you to split the keyboard into two parts with the same tonal range. That way both your kids can practice at the same time with their own set of headphones and only hear themselves.

Many Kawais have twin mode too, but I'm not sure how it works with the headphones.

It might be worth mentioning the just new Kawai ES-110 - paired with a stand this might be very suitable, and its price is nice, has some good piano sounds and others, and its action appears to be pretty good. Could be handy to have something you can stowe away when your 6 year old has friends over and emphasizing the 'you're the reason we can't have nice things' problem we've experienced from time to time here ^^

Also handy about something portable like this, is that possibly when your little one goes off to piano lessons, practice could be done on their own piano - just pack it up and take it along.

PBL, good call on the 'Twin Mode' feature.



Kawai's equivalent 'Four Hands' mode outputs the same stereo signal through both jacks. I like Roland approach of separating the sound, however I believe the output may be downgraded to mono in order to achieve this. Can you confirm?

Kind regards,
James
x

No, I don't know if it is mono. My Roland is too old for those tricks:-) I just know from the manual of never ones that you can chose between having the same signal on both jacks and separating the two. Very clever indeed.

You'll also need a sturdy stand for the keyboard, a bench, a light ... it adds up.

I always advise against X stands. Spend some money and by a stand that is rock solid.

The PX-780 is, essentially, a PX-350 (which I own) with upgraded amplifiers and speakers, mounted in a minimal cabinet. It comes with a 3-pedal unit, the damper pedal has half-pedalling (but not continuous half-pedalling).

It is perfectly adequate for six-year-olds, and well beyond that. It'll get you through "intermediate" repertoire without any trouble. It also has lots of fun features -- auto-chording, auto-harmonize, rhythms, a full "General MIDI" sound set -- which I haven't used much.

If you can get it at a reasonable price, it's a good choice. Ideally, you'd compare it against the Roland FP-30 (widely available) and the Kawai ES-110 (just released).

. Charles

Hi SSK,
I will go against crowd and will NOT recommend Kawai ES110 nor CN25. Do not get me wrong, especially CN25 is very good instrument, but rather for adult pianist. From children perspective, it has like only 5 sounds.
Whatever pianos (= piano), Electronic pianos (= strange pianos), Organs, Choir, Strings. Lack of display makes it hard to find out "what the heck the children did".

I have no experience with Casios, so from your list, I would choose Roland RP401R. Its nice piano with pretty decent keyboard (3 sensors), lot of sounds (=lot of fun for children), bunch of features and very good price at the moment.
Also, I would avoid slab styles pianos with childrens unless you have good justification for it.

Thank you all for the thoughts and suggestions.

I missed to add one thing in the initial post - I am looking for a console/cabinet type DP and not portable.

Does anyone have any opinion about the Roland RP401R model? The reviews I read say mostly good about it and one of the down side is the 1-track recording. I am not sure how important is multi-track recording and how will it affect my kids if they have to record.


Due to the budget and the financing options available, we are inclined to the Casios or the Roland.


As I understand, polyphony value of 128 is more than sufficient for the first few years where they won't do any complex stuff. Speaker output is 30Wx2 (AP650) vs 20Wx2 (PX-780) which I think is not a huge difference. One other noticeable difference I see is that the AP-650 has "weighted" keys which is not present in PX-780 - is that a deal breaker?

As for the LCD/LED display, I am thinking of buying one which has it - which might move AP-460 to the lower half of the list.

I see you have a Casio, do you have those key rattling sounds?


That is one issue that worries me about the Casios, especially if I opt to go with the expensive Celviano (460/650). I hope they have improved their quality lately

I think Casio gives 5 years of parts and labor warranty for both AP-460 and AP-650 DPs. Any idea how good is their support?


Split is one main thing my kids' teacher told not to bother about. She insisted on having 88-key piano (acoustic preferred, but digital is fine too) and each of them should practice at home separately. So split is not a requirement.


I missed to mention in my original post that I am looking for console models that will sit in our living room. So portability is not required.


I am looking for console models, so no X stands.


PX-780 is priced at $899 on kraftmusic.com and I suppose is a good price for the spec, which is almost comparable to the $1899 AP-650.
PX-780 vs Roland RP401R?
I am interested to know your experience with your PX-350, especially the key rattling issues (if any).


I think the CN25 has 19 sounds, still no where near the AP-650 or the PX-780 or the Roland RP401R. I have read multiple people suggesting, same as you, to go for as many sounds as possible so kids can have fun and learn piano.


I was told by a person who suggested CN25/CN35, that RP401R is the next best thing in that price range for key action since it has the "let off" similar to the CN series.



By slab type do you mean the portables? Then I am not looking for those, I am interested only in the console/cabinet type DP.

Thanks!

The Roland RP401R is discontinued. Its replacement is very similar. It does have a lot of sounds, but the tiny LCD display won't tell you what they are. You might find yourself digging out the manual to figure out what tone number will sound like a harp (18) or saxophone (189-192).

https://www.rolandus.com/support/knowledge_base/202979499

https://static.roland.com/assets/images/products/gallery/rp-401r-rw_ipad_gal.jpg

You can see the screen is small. You can connect an ipad and run an app from roland that will let you use that as a screen to help navigate. Not ideal though. Wireless connection requires you have a wifi router at home and buy a wifi dongle for the piano. The app is not available for android unless you get the next version from Roland, either the FP140r or the RP501r.

Instead of the casios you've mentioned so far, you might like the cheaper casio CGP700 with its bigger display. Typical price is $800, add another $70 or so if you want to have 3 pedals - can the kids reach the pedals yet? It has plenty of different sounds, a 'duet mode', and two headphone jacks if they ever want to play together without making too much noise.

http://www.casiomusicgear.com/products/cgp-series/cgp-700

You said they were taking lessons, has their teacher offered any recommendations?

If you ever want to record know that some pianos - including the RP401r only record 'MIDI' data. Think of the digital piano as three separate parts. You have the keyboard/controller, the sound engine, and the speakers. MIDI data is created when you hit a key, it'll be something like 'key e4 struck with velocity 65'. The sound engine uses that to create audio data, which is played back through speakers or headphones. It's perfectly fine if you want to play back through the piano. But you can't load MIDI data onto an mp3 player as if it was a song. If that's not an issue, I believe recording more than one song on the RP401r is doable if you connect a usb flash drive to the piano.

In your price range weighted keys should be seen as a necessary feature. The PX780 has the same weighted keys as the AP650. Both use the casio tri sensor scaled hammer action 2. Polyphony of 128 is perfectly fine. I don't have experience getting work done on casios during their warranty period, but one of the differences between the PX and AP lines is the warranty. I believe with the PX series coverage is one year, increased to three years if you register the product with Casio (free to do). It might be worth your time to look into where warranty work is done - do you have to disassemble the piano then bring part of it or all of it to a shop? Does someone come to your house?

+1.

My PX-350 keys don't rattle. The downward motion (pressing the key) is well-damped at the bottom. Pulling your finger off a fully-down key and letting it rise freely, there's one soft (and audible) bounce off its top stop, before it settles.

If you play the PX-xxx pianos at a reasonable volume -- either through headphones, or through speakers -- you won't hear any key noise. It's covered by the music.


You can find a DP with a quieter action, but it'll be considerably more costly than your price bracket. The newest Roland PHA-50 action is pretty quiet -- try one out on an HP603 / HP605 or one of the LX series.

Acoustic pianos also have key noise, but nobody complains about it -- it's just accepted as part of the instrument's sound. If you can find an acoustic, try it out. Play a note, let it die away, and see how loud the action noise is, when you suddenly lift your finger off the key.

My suggestion:

. . . Don't let "key noise" be a determinant of what you buy.

EDIT: As the previous post says, distinguish between "MIDI recording" and "audio (=WAV) recording". The PX-780 supports _audio_ recording to a flash drive, as well as multi-track MIDI recording.

FWIW, I've had the DP for several years, and haven't used its multi-track MIDI recording ability even once. But I _have_ used the audio recording feature -- it's handy, and simple to use.

I'd also test drive a Yamaha DGX-660. It has lots of great voices and comes in under budget.

Keep your eye on what is rolled out in the 2017 NAMM convention over the next few days.

The RP401R is $1199 on kraftmusic.com and the newr RP501R is $1499 - same price as Casio AP-460. And I agree that one would need the manual to understand the selection from the LED display. But its better than having none, like on the Kawai CN25 or the Casio AP-460.


kraftmusic.com has a WIFI bundle with the WiFi dongle, so wouldn't be an issue. But not sure how easy it is to access the functions using the Roland Partner app.


This one looks like a portable which we are not considering at this time. But thank you for suggesting it and I will take a look at it.


Yes, they started their lessons last week. Their teacher did not specifically talk about any brands or models. The suggestion was to get a real piano. But if that's not possible now, get a digital one with 88-key piano. She insisted not to get a lesser key one since it will make the kids confused with the extra keys at her home during the class. Also suggested to get one with at least one pedal (3 is ideal) as the kids might require it sometime later. I am not sure when they will be able to reach the pedal - haven't checked their current reach.


So with 1-track only recording the songs played on the piano cannot be shared with friends and family. That could be a limitation, I guess.


Yes, AP-650 has 2 years additional parts and labor warranty. I have to double check if it includes in-house repair.


I am not too concerned about the key noise in normal working, but was asking about some of the posts on the casio forum about key rattling noise which usually shows up after using for a year or more. I need to check how effective is Casio's warranty.


Good to know PX-780 has audio recording.


Looks like a portable model, I am looking for a console type DP.

Thank you all for giving your ideas and suggestions.

One difference I see between AP-650 and PX-780 is that the former has Acoustic Resonance (String Resonance?) and the latter has Damper Resonance. How much important is this feature for a beginner to a student with 3-5 years piano learning?

Does PX-780 has sliding key cover?

I am leaning towards PX-780 since it has most of the features that is required for a beginner and is priced below $1000.

The one concern I have now is will the lack of String Resonance in this model turn out to be an issue once my kids move to another level, say in 2-4 years?

Thanks!