Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer?

Posted by: Claudia -

Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/20/09 08:58 PM

Hello everybody,
I am in a serious process of buying a baby grand piano for me..
I tried many brands and many pianos.
I have found today a Bosendorfer that sounds VERY good, the action is excellent, as well as the responsiveness.
It is a brand new Bosendorfer 170 (about 5.8')polished ebony, but the year built is 2000. It has been at the dealer's showroom... for 9 years!!! This dealer became now an only-Steinway dealer, so he is liquidating all pianos in his stock that are not Steinways.
He says that the retail price for this Bosendorfer is US dollars 101,000.
(I know that is not what he paid for it in 2000, so the first lie is that the $ 101,000 could be the retail price for a 2009 Bosie 170).
Anyway, the piano is in excellent condition. It is new definitely.
Now this is what I could negotiate:
For the piano + taxes + matching bench + shipping + first tuning = US $ 42,000

How that does it sound to you, friends? Am I getting a price I should not resist? Or is it something average under the present circumstances of economic recession?

I am ready to buy it if I can determine that I am getting a price I will not find anywhere.
If not, I am willing to fly to California to try a Hamburg Steinway "O" built 2005, that has been used for rental. They ask US $ 60,000
I was always crazy for a Hamburg Steinway new or almost new (I don't want vintages, rebuilts, or older ones more than 10 years old), but as you know, it is very difficult to find in the USA.

So... should I buy this Bosendorfer right away? (I really liked it). Or should I put under risk that while I cross the country just to try the Hamburg Steinway O someone would buy it?

Help please!

Claudia
Posted by: TLuvva

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/20/09 09:14 PM

Relax. And take the risk! It enhances your position. Meanwhile, make a reasonable offer. It might not be refused or could become an excellent negotiating point for a 9 year old new piano. A Bosey would be so much more fun than a Steinway. The excitement of a imminent deal is often too much to subdue, but try to remain calm. It certainly seems to be a buyers market.
Posted by: Claudia -

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/20/09 09:20 PM

Answer for TLuvva: the seller started with a price of $ 45,500 + 6 % taxes = $ 48,230 (shipping and tuning included) and I had to pay for the bench (about $ 650).
I offered $ 40,000 everything included... they came to $ 42,650. I offered $ 41,300 and everything ended with $ 42,000 and this is the final price after a hard negotiation (I mean: really hard), so I know it is $ 42,000 or nothing else, ALL included.

Why is that you said that a Bosey would be so much fun than a Steinway?
Posted by: TLuvva

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/20/09 09:38 PM

I don't know about prices like most. Wait for their input. Both would be fine, but while Bosey and Steinway are both top quality, Bosey is well... not Steinway. More to talk about!
Posted by: Claudia -

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/20/09 09:46 PM

Thanks! I will wait for inputs, but remember... I am not talking about a New York Steinway (I just wasted my time trying many, many, many of them in the dealers', I would not pay even half of the price they ask for any of them). I am talking about a HAMBURG Steinway... a totally different animal...
Posted by: Rich D.

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/20/09 09:58 PM

I also think you could negotiate a better price for the 9 year old Bose. However I think you may be limiting your possibilities by not looking at pianos older than 10 years. For example, see link below. I've played that particular Bose 170 and it not only plays and sounds wonderful but is in flawless condition. Just so you know it's being sold by my former tech (when I lived in the DC area) and I have no financial interst in the instrument whatsoever. Good luck.

Rich

http://www.jamescolwell.com/ForSale.htm
Posted by: CD131

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/20/09 10:08 PM

I would be curious as to why that Bosey didn't sell in 9 years. Something smells a little fishy. If it hasn't sold in 9 years, then, what's the rush? I'd do more research, check out more instruments, and, like Rich D. I think your're limiting yourself by ruling out pianos 10+ years old.
Posted by: Barbara G

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/20/09 10:34 PM

A year and a half ago the best that I could find a Bose 170 for was a very beautiful mahogany one for $50,000. It also was a few years old, in the northeast US, and never had sold. The reason is that the 170 is small for a Bose and there is not much demand for them. However they play and sound very wonderful. It is just that most people with that much money want a bigger grand. Also the fancy case Bose seem to be harder to find a buyer for them than ebony ones. I guess that the same is true in other brands also. \:D

I also don't believe that a Hamburg Steinway will sound and play much different than a NY Steinway. If you love the Bosendorfer then I would not guess that you would love a Hamburg Steinway. But of course I'm really talking about my tastes.
Posted by: schwammerl

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/20/09 11:38 PM

Claudia,

A few days ago I posted this: http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/25881.html#000000

A 2006 privately owned but piano dealer sold Bösendorfer 170 Johann Strauss Edition @ $ 50,000. and found this a good deal.

Your offer, a regular 2000 Bosie 170 - never sold before - @ k$ 42 looks more than a fine proposition to me then supposing youy also have full dealer warranty support etc.

In Europe - I know difficult to compare - a used 170 sold by a dealer and in excellent condition from around 1980[/b] will typically sell for about k$ 35.

Irrespective of price, for me if money was no issue, a Bösendorfer 170 would be my first choice. On equal level would be the Bösendorfer CS200, although a bit less expensive I could not accomodate it because of it's length.

schwammerl.
Posted by: Claudia -

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 12:16 AM

My answers:

To Rich about "I think you may be limiting your possibilities by not looking at pianos older than 10 years":
Since I do not want a restored piano, in any part of it, that is why I am not looking at pianos more than 10 or 15 years old.

To CD131 "I would be curious as to why that Bosey didn't sell in 9 years. Something smells a little fishy."
Of course I asked the seller that question. He said that at the retail price of $ 101,000 people would buy any other instrument (they were Yamaha dealers until 2 years ago at the same time they had this Bosendorfer). Then they became only-Steinway dealer and reduced the price for the Bosendorfer in March (last year). So again my question was: how is that in 11 months you could not sell this piano if the price is so great? And he said: because if a customer had that amount of money, at that price range we pushed to sell him Steinways instead.

To Barbara G "I also don't believe that a Hamburg Steinway will sound and play much different than a NY Steinway.":
You have to experience for yourself what feels like to play a Hamburg Steinway. They are literally like a total different piano compared to the New York cousin. I have played them (not in the USA) and they have no relation except for the word "Steinway" regards to touch, action and sound. Still, it has to do with personal taste. I know there is an "american sound" and an "european sound" for pianos.

To Schwammerl: The whole thing you have said helps me a lot! Thanks!
Posted by: alx

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 12:17 AM

Two years ago I was looking at the same size bosie. I found a new one in the northeast for about $53,000. I found a demo model in the south USA for about $52,000. This model was used for a few concerts and was about a year old. So I think this is a very good price. If you like it, go for it. The quality and workmanship on both were superb. Good Luck.
Posted by: Claudia -

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 12:41 AM

Thanks Ark!
Posted by: tucsonpianist91

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 02:18 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Claudia -:
Hello everybody,

So... should I buy this Bosendorfer right away? (I really liked it). Or should I put under risk that while I cross the country just to try the Hamburg Steinway O someone would buy it?

Help please!

Claudia [/b]
It's been on the show room floor for nine years. My guess is that you would be safe to let go for another couple weeks to look at another piano.
Posted by: Claudia -

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 02:22 AM

I will give it a good thought, Tucsonpianist91. Thanks for your advice!
Posted by: Chris H.

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 02:57 AM

If this is now a liquidation sale then I'm not sure it is safe to let it go for a couple of weeks. It seems like the dealer really needs to shift this piano which does put you in a good position. However it also means he will be doing everything possible to move it on now. What about agreeing to leave a refundable deposit? You are 90% sure you want it but just need a little time to think it through. I'm sure that if you told the dealer you would give him a decision in a couple of weeks he would be willing to accommodate you.
Posted by: AJB

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 04:44 AM

Claudia

The dealer knows he has an interested customer who is potentially serious after 9 years.

Never never NEVER leave deposits. Very bad negotiating tactic.

If you really like the piano still, after having viewed the Hamburg Steinway, I would give a written offer to the dealer of not more than $40,000 all in, take it or leave it, with 24 hours to make up his mind. Make it clear that this is your final offer.

Ignore all previous negotiations. They were merely skirmishes and are now history, and you can say that if you want.

I very much doubt that the dealer will let you walk away if you stay firm.

Good luck

Adrian
Posted by: AJB

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 04:48 AM

Another thought - have you considered importing a Hamburg from the UK or mainland Europe yourself. There are some decent pianos around, less than 10 years old, and for much less than the currency equivalent of $60,000.

Import is not a difficult process, but you do have the issue of trying the pianos of course. That can be helped by a reputable search agent to weed out the dross.
Posted by: Paul H

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 06:31 AM

The title of your post makes it sound as if you're selling rather than buying. However, maybe it would be useful for you to imagine you already had the piano and were selling it. Would you regard $42,000 as a good price to get for it?
Posted by: PoStTeNeBrAsLuX

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 07:00 AM

Barbara G:
The reason is that the 170 is small for a Bose and there is not much demand for them. However they play and sound very wonderful. It is just that most people with that much money want a bigger grand.

Indeed.

Claudia, let me first commend on your choice of manufacturer \:\) , but do you really have only the room for a 170cm piano? Most spaces that will fit a 170 would also easily fit a 200 with a bit of imagination ;\) . Of course I am biased[1], from both the size and CS v. Black series points of view, but I would strongly recommend at least playing and considering a 200CS as well.

Personally I found the bass response and general character of the 214 size to be so different from a 200, that it was a no-brainer to go for a 214CS instead of a 200 (perhaps used for not too different money), or even less for a 200CS. I would imagine that the change from 170 to 200 is similar, if not more so. I'll admit that the only 170 I've ever played was quite an old one and sounded very 'small' and insubstantial to me, but that was immediately after playing a new Fazioli 212 and 228, a nearly-new Hamburg B and two 214CS examples, so it was up against some strong competition, and was not a like-for-like comparison with anything else.

Of course, it also depends on your musical preferences and general domestic situation. I play classical and for my choice of repertoire and playing style, grand pianos in general start sounding 'interesting' (for want of a better word) from ~190cm upwards, in terms of treble/bass balance, tonal quality and overall sonority. Many smaller grands I have played sounded and felt no better (and some a lot worse) than good quality uprights. But of course the furniture and style aspect of a baby grand is a personal choice compared to any upright.

If this particular Bösendorfer 170 is what you have set your heart on, then go for it; I am sure it is a beautiful instrument. Just be sure you have looked at (and listened to!) all the other options out there, before giving over what is still a large chunk of change in anyone's book...

Best of luck in your decisions.


Michael B.
[1] And arguably have room for an Imperial where my 214CS sits (5m free lengthways), though that would be too much sound for the space when giving it full carrots... er, and I and the family would only be able to afford to eat carrots for next 20 years ;\)
Posted by: David-G

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 08:01 AM

Claudia, I really can't advise you, but I wish you a wise decision. I would just say - make sure that you really love the piano. It's more important than loving the price.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 08:31 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Rich D.:
I also think you could negotiate a better price for the 9 year old Bose. However I think you may be limiting your possibilities by not looking at pianos older than 10 years. For example, see link below. I've played that particular Bose 170 and it not only plays and sounds wonderful but is in flawless condition. Just so you know it's being sold by my former tech (when I lived in the DC area) and I have no financial interst in the instrument whatsoever. Good luck.

Rich

http://www.jamescolwell.com/ForSale.htm [/b]
A 20 year old used Boesendorfer should cost a lot less than a 9 year old new one!!
Posted by: Konzert Patrick

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 08:37 AM

If you like the piano, buy it! It seems like the deal of the year to me. I would love to own that piano \:D It will last you a life time.....

Don't let people talk you into a bigger piano, with this piano in your house you will be able to play it with the lid open and enjoy the full Bosendorfer experience. If the piano gets to big for the room, you need to keep the lid down and that would be a shame!

Good luck and do post the pictures when it arrives in your home ;\)

Kind regards from one jealous PW member \:D
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 08:43 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Claudia -:

He says that the retail price for this Bosendorfer is US dollars 101,000.
(I know that is not what he paid for it in 2000, so the first lie is that the $ 101,000 could be the retail price for a 2009 Bosie 170).
[/b]
It's not a lie to say the retail price is 101K because dealers don't have separate selling or MSRP prices for pianos bought one year and the same make/model bought later or earlier(except in special cases like this one in terms of the selling price). Fine's latest MSRP for this model is about 90K, but this may not have included the latest price increase.

I don't know what discount is possible on Boesendorfers, but it seems like you have somewhere between 50-55% so I doubt many would say this is a bad deal.I don't think it's important if it's the absolute best deal possible. The main thing is, as has been said in many threads, "don't buy the deal, buy the piano".

Have you tried longer grands?
Posted by: Stevester

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 08:53 AM

At the very least I would give Rich at Cunningham's in Philadelphia a call and ask him what he has available. He sells new and used Bosie as well as other major brands (Estonia, M&H, etc...). Rich calls me on occasion with a good and he will probably sell me my next piano.

Regards,
Steve Ries
Posted by: Marty Flinn

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 02:26 PM

I am puzzled by the post. You have done your diligence. You have found a piano you like. You entered into "hard negotiation" and earned a price that looks to be at or nearly at the wholesale price of the instrument. Why would you do that unless you were ready to buy? Tying up an instrument with a refundable deposit while you continue to shop is foolish for the dealer. It is bad business. One phone call to the rep. for Bosendorfer with the serial number and he can confirm if the piano is in fact new. That done, fish or cut bait. Great piano. Great price. Don't look for reassurances after you have worked a deal.
Posted by: SHPiano

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 05:59 PM

It sounds like a pretty darn good price if it is really new. If it has never been sold, then (as I understand it) Bösendorfer should treat it as new and you'll have your 10 year Bösendorfer warranty. On the other hand, as a practical matter, over the years that it has been in the showroom it might have been played enough so that it has some wear and tear (e.g. compacted hammer felt). Since you're serious about this piano, I'd recommend having an independent tech take a look and make sure that it doesn't have any appreciable wear.

Finally, I agree with others that if you love the tone and touch of this instrument and you feel good about the price. . . go for it! I'm probably biased, but I really, really like Bösendorfers. Every day I play mine, I discover new wonderful subtleties that make me want to play for hours.
Posted by: tangledfingers

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 06:17 PM

 Quote:
Another thought - have you considered importing a Hamburg from the UK or mainland Europe yourself. There are some decent pianos around, less than 10 years old, and for much less than the currency equivalent of $60,000.
AJB,
Do you have some examples?
thanks
Posted by: rapide

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/21/09 07:05 PM

Hi Claudia,

In my opinion Bosendorfers don't have to be big to be beautiful. I had a 200 which I preferred to the previous and subsequent 225.

I think Von Karajan had a 170, which seems a pretty good recommendation to me.

A Hamburg B is, or at least was, substantially different to a New York B. I have heard that Hamburg is now using American wood for their soundboards so the difference may not be so noticeable in future.

It really is a tough decision to choose between Bosendorfer and Steinway. Personally though I find the Bosendorfer tone more enchanting

Best wishes in your decision making.

John
Posted by: Claudia -

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 03:32 AM

FINAL OUTCOME

Dear fellow musicians TLuvva, Rich D., CD131, Barbara G, Schwammerl, Ark, Tucsonpianist91, Chris H., AJB, Paul H, Postenebraslux, David-G, Pianoloverus, GC1Patrick, Stevester, MartyFlinn, SHPIano, Tangledfingers and Rapide

First of all, I have to thank everyone of you that spent time reading my post and answering it.
I cannot tell you how helpful you have been in my final decision.

I also put this same post in the “Piano Tuner-Technician's Forum”, since I really thought that both branches would have something very useful to advice me. And they really did.
You can check the answers I received in the other forum here: http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/3/4730.html#000011

As I said I was going to do, following the advice from the Piano technicians, today I got not just an RPT and PTG, but this man is also an specialist in Bosendorfers, and has been trained in Austria, inside the Bosendorfers factory!!! Can you believe how lucky I have been, to find such a person, and that he was willing to come and check this piano on a Saturday evening? This is an experienced tech. for more than 40 years now!!! Add to that that this man has nothing to do with the dealer. Awesome.
His diagnosis about this piano: it has never been used or repaired. It is everywhere and everything original. No scratches. Nothing changed or restored. He said this piano must have been played a maximum of 10 hours during the whole 9 years. He said is perfect in every detail. No doubt it was sitting at the showroom the whole time. He suspects it has been tuned about 3 to 4 times a year, so it is in the perfect point that it does not need the initial period to “break – in”. It is in the point of the full potential.
I asked him how much he would appraise it, and since he does not sell pianos (another good thing, he didn’t try to sell me one of his inventory) but has done in the past (more good things, so he knows how to evaluate these facts) this piano should be appraised at the same level of a model 2009, due to the perfect and original condition in what it is.
I paid him the $ 150 he asked (more than any other technicians I contacted), but due to his expertise, particularly with Bosendorfer, it was worth every penny.
And of course, I asked so many questions to this technician. He was a Maestro. He showed (and taught me) every little detail about how he inspected this piano, to the point that I almost feel myself able to diagnose the condition of a piano!!! ;-) He is literally a Maestro, and better yet, a Bosendorfer Maestro.
So thanks to people and specially technicians of the forum who insisted on this task to be performed. This is something I would not have think without you. Too bad for the tech. who answered first, saying that this was not a question for the technicians forum. If I could have been able to delete my post (what I tried unsuccessfully) I would have never gone to get this done. Now I have peace of mind.
So just a little suggestion for the technicians: don’t diminish a question from someone who asks a type of help that seems not to be directly related to their work... You may be wrong...

I had in mind those who told me “get a bigger piano (for that same money)”.
Well… honestly the SIZE is never a matter for me (in every sense you want to imagine, musically or not). What is really important for me is the quality (again, in every sense).
I understand that in most pianos the size means a better harmony, a more powerful sound.
But in the case of a Bosendorfer, these instruments are made with such a high quality, that they can produce harmonics that other brands of the same size cannot. And I experienced these for myself, trying many different brands and sizes.
Regards to the power, the room where this piano is going to be nested does not have the size to receive too much power sound. It has double ceiling height, but relatively small surface dimensions. Having a bigger piano there would force me to play it with the lid closed, and then I will really lose harmonics, and clarity.
When I was a young student (this is many, many years ago) I had an August Forster upright, and even for my daily practice I opened the upper lid, as well as I took apart the whole front of the piano. I wanted to listen the direct sound. So why should I want to play now on a grand with closed lid, being so easy to just open the lid!?
So regards to who they told me that for the same money I can get a bigger grand, I really believe it can be true, but it will not meet my desires.
In fact, this same dealer has another Bosenforder in the clearance section: a 214 (7’) CS (Conservatory serie) which price is $ 5,000 less than the 170 (5’8”) I have been talking in this post.
Of course I tried the 214 CS, and I didn’t like it. I would preferred to pay more for the 170 (it is NOT a CS serie) than for this huge 214 CS. I really think that there is a difference between the CS series and the other (better) ones, as it is not the same sound quality with the C series and the S series of Yamahas.

After trying this Bosendorfer 170 for the first time yesterday, I went directly to a Yamaha dealer, just to try them. I always had a crush on Yamahas (that is before I discovered the Hamburg Steinways). I had a particular obsession with the C7. And yes... I played one yesterday... What a shock... It meant nothing for me. So I have been thinking yesterday night... is it because after playing this Bosendorfer, the Yamahas means nothing for me any more (except the CFIII)? Does it mean that this Bosendorfer is something really special?
So discarded the Yamahas, I have been thinking of testing the Shigeru Kawais... but as I have been advised here (in another post)... Shigerus will still be Kawais, and although it is not a bad brand... they are not at the same level of Steinways, Bosendorfers, Grotrians, Bluthners... and the list goes on...

Now regards to my obsession with the Hamburg Steinways, the only relatively new one I found in the USA is this one I mentioned in San Francisco... Should I fly there, from Pennsylvania, just to try it? What if it does not sound and feels the way I want, and in the meantime I lose the Bosie? I have asked this dealer that has this Hamburg, 5 days ago, pictures of it as well as the serial number, and I gave him my phone numbers for him to call me to talk about this piano... He said literally through his e-mail: “Sure, I’ll have somebody take a few pictures for you. Please just relax patiently until that joyful day, however”. He never sent me pictures, called me or provide me the serial # of the piano. Should I have made the trip without seeing pictures, verifying that the arm is rounded, so it is really a Hamburg (and not a New York) Steinway? This is not a joke. It is a trip that takes me 3 to 4 planes. Besides, his lack of information (or interest to sell it really?) didn’t smell good to me. This piano is being used for rentals... Who knows if he is serious about selling it?
Besides, the technician who evaluated the Bosendorfer told me that Bosies are made almost equally as the Hamburg Steinways, are the closest to them, and used to have this rich European sound (that is what I have been looking for, not easy to find in the USA).

To answer to those who suggested me to import a Hamburg Steinway from Europe: of course I tried it. I was in touch with a dealer in Spain, and the price to put a M model in the USA was 52,000 euros plus importation taxes and shipping. And the New York Steinway dealer asked me US $ 78,500. And of course, I am not going to buy blindly a piano… I have to travel MYSELF to Europe to choose it… Each piano is different (unless you buy one made in serie). So I have analyzed this idea of bringing one from Europe… but it is sooo expensive… compared with this new Bosendorfer 170, new, for $ 42,000

As Marty Flinn recommended me: I got the serial number and I called another Bosendorfer dealer, and confirmed it is built in 2000.

Regards to those who advised me here to leave a refundable deposit for the Bosendorfer and continue shopping around... no way. It keeps me psychologically tied. And I love freedom more than any other thing in life... It is a personal belief. As some of you said here:
“Never never NEVER leave deposits. Very bad negotiating tactic.”

About to leave it for 2 weeks and then write the dealer an offer for $ 40,000: that is not ethical from my part, the way I negotiated the deal. I know at where we started, I know how hard I was to get to the point I arrived (the $ 42,000 everything included), I got information that he is not financially in a hurry... You provided me information in these forums (and after that I got mine through some phone calls and Internet) about what is the real price in the market for these pianos, and also the wholesale price. I knew I didn’t have room to get it for less.
So I thought: I have a deal. Now I have to buy the piano.
And in this aspect, what Pianoloverus said “don't buy the deal, buy the piano” really helped me with directions in my process of thinking and analyzing.

I asked myself: Is this a piano I am going to regret not to buy, if I lose it for continuing shopping around “just in case”? And my answer was: yes, this is something I will regret.

So bearing in mind, as David-G said here: “make sure that you really love the piano. It's more important than loving the price” is that I went there this Saturday evening with the technician. Then I tried the piano (and other pianos again)… and I really liked the piano. The more I played, the more I liked it.

Then, you see… following Marty Flynn “You have done your diligence” (and believe me, I did everything, as I have explained here) and then “That done, fish or cut bait”

So… guess what… I did it… I fished it…
A few hours ago I bought the Bosendorfer 170 PE new from year 2000 at $ 42,000 what includes taxes, artist bench, shipping, grand piano lamp, first tuning and 10 years warranty.

For what I heard in these forums, it sound too good to be true. But it is true!!

Now, if someone wants to hear something also hard to believe, this dealer has 2 other new Bosendorfers in the clearance process:
- 214 CS (7”) ebony satin, from year 2001, never sold (althought it has been used for a few concerts in the showroom)
- 170 (5’8”) model Yacht (what a beauty!), 2001 or so (a higher # serie than mine)

If anyone wants to contact the seller, send me a private message. I will be happy to share my good luck of finding these jewels, as well as referring to the seller of the store who was very honest with me.

Thank you everyone again, you have been wonderful. These forums at pianoworld are terrific!
Have a great Sunday and week, and from my part… I will wait for my Bosie to arrive, hopefully on Tuesday!

Warm hugs!
Posted by: schwammerl

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 04:50 AM

Claudia,

Congratulations with your Bösendorfer 170, a beautiful instrument indeed; enjoy it for many years to come. \:\)

And thank you for your most genuine testimonial.

I also hope you will continue posting here as from your buying experience there will be lots you could share with others in future.

schwammerl
Posted by: PoStTeNeBrAsLuX

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 05:56 AM

Claudia,

Congratulations on your new piano.

I really think that there is a difference between the CS series and the other (better) ones, as it is not the same sound quality with the C series and the S series of Yamahas.

Well, you think wrong. This has been discussed many times here before, but here we go again:

* The rim construction, plate, action, soundboard, hammers and strings are all identical on the B and the CS series pianos. They are both made in the same factory by the same workforce using the same materials. Any comparison with the differences between C and S series Yamaha pianos is quite astoundingly wide of the mark.

* The CS series has a satin exterior finish and the plate is not as highly polished. Both activities involve a lot of (expensive) labour, and though cosmetically superior, neither make any contribution to how the pianos sounds or plays.

* Not all the strings are individually hitched on the CS series, some being loop-strung, which again saves some labour time. Similar to Steinway, Fazioli and other quality manufacturers (who use loop stringing as standard) Bösendorfer don't believe that single-stringing brings any advantages other than cosmetic.

* The CS models receive somewhat less preparation at the factory, but still more than many other piano-makers. Of course many of these elements are lost within a short time of delivery (if the piano is indeed used for music rather than as a fancy furniture ornament), so any experienced technician[1] should be able to maintain any B or CS model (as they are essentially the same piano wearing slight different clothes) in identical tip-top playing condition as the years go by.

So, if you cannot perceive the superior tonal quality/balance, control (appreciably longer key length) and sonority of a 7' Bösendorfer compared to the smaller instrument, then it's probably best that you stick to something you know and like. From a cosmetic and furniture point of view a B170 is obviously a superior piano to a 214CS; however from a musical standpoint I (and I'd imagine most other experienced pianists) would maintain the opposite to be true.

You and others might consider this response an example of an owner merely defending their choice of instrument, and of course there is an element of that. However the misplaced analogy above merely serves to spread misinformation on a forum which is consulted by people looking for reliable and correct information, and it is also in that spirit that I felt the need to set the record straight.

Yours rather irritatedly,

Michael B.
[1] The chap who maintains my piano is Vice-President of the Swiss PTG, and regularly visits the factory in Vienna, as he is also Bösendorfer's official technical representative for French-speaking Switzerland and works closely with their main dealer in Montreux.
Posted by: Barbara G

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 08:16 AM

Congradulations Claudia. Thanks for sharing this quest and experience with us. As you can tell I have a Bosendorfer also and they are trully wonderful pianos. They have many craftmanship items in design and building which no other piano has. When ours was being repaired I learned about these things.

Don't hesitate to thank Gerhard Feldmann by name here on PW. He is rebuilding his service and repair business since he closed his New York store. He is a man who is loved by many and my husband has talked to him on the phone several times. We think the world of him also.

I'm sure that you will love and enjoy your piano for years. Congradulations.
Posted by: lilylady

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 08:25 AM

"So… guess what… I did it… I fished it…"

I hope that you will be happy playing in the waters! It's a beautiful piano.

Tues, huh? That's wonderful...

We do love delivery pics, you know!

BTW, if taxes were included, it sounds like the piano is actually around $40,000. Delivery, tunings, benches etc is normal.

It might be nice to share the tech and seller's business name here. \:\)

edit - oh I see that BG wrote at the same time as I!
Posted by: turandot

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 10:33 AM

 Quote:
So, if you cannot perceive the superior tonal quality/balance, control (appreciably longer key length) and sonority of a 7' Bösendorfer compared to the smaller instrument, then it's probably best that you stick to something you know and like. From a cosmetic and furniture point of view a B170 is obviously a superior piano to a 214CS; however from a musical standpoint I (and I'd imagine most other experienced pianists) would maintain the opposite to be true.

You and others might consider this response an example of an owner merely defending their choice of instrument [1], and of course there is an element of that.
A pretty strong element, I'd say.

Two points

Although it is a majority opinion here that longer is generally better for reasons you have cited, there is a minority position that individual manufacturers' best achievements are not necessarily their longest ones. For example, there are players who find too much resonant bass annoying, too much sustain a nuisance, and are interested in a type of musical expression that is enhanced by neither. Count me in. \:D

You don't have to make your point by inferring that the member cannot perceive the superiority of your instrument and must be interested in furniture over musical qualities. Beyond the member's statement that she prefers a a smaller grand open to the possibility of a larger grand closed, she is entitled the courtesy of knowing better than anyone what works best for her musically. You can defend the quality of workmanship and materials in your piano without putting down the member's ability to play or discern.

[1] "an owner merely defending their choice of instrument" would be better expressed as "an owner merely defending his choice of instrument". \:D
Posted by: TLuvva

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 10:43 AM

Congratulations! It's so fun to get so excited about an instrument. It's like a crush.

Boy, I'd love to consider that 214CS at that price myself. Don't think Mrs. A would go for it at this exact time and place though. Maybe it will sit another few years or months at least.

And hey, Mr B. try to give Claudia a little slack. You're right, but she's obviously quite excited and delightfully so. When you have a crush like that, your excitement might cause you to inadvertently say something about someone else's girlfriend. Oops! I'm sure she didn't mean to. And thanks for the reassuring details about my future piano's quality.
Posted by: AJB

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 11:03 AM

If you can get a 7ft 214 CS for $40,000 or less - that is a significantly better piano for a musician than a 170. Think carefully. The 214 is in small concert grand territory: a pro instrument. It can always be voiced down a bit for your room. It will also give you much more dynamic control.

Michael is dead right that the cosmetic and minor technical differences between the models have no impact on musical functionality. The CS is in no way an inferior instrument - just a little less pretty as a piece of furniture.

Try them again!

Anyway, good luck with your purchase.

Adrian
Posted by: PoStTeNeBrAsLuX

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 12:17 PM

William:
You don't have to make your point by inferring that the member cannot perceive the superiority of your[/b] instrument (my emphasis)

I don't own the sole 214CS in the world, therefore this is not actually a personal issue. I know what I like, but of course people tastes vary, and not everyone likes the same thing, so 'vive la différence' and all that malarkey. However I find it a shame that uninformed and incorrect opinions be presented as fact by someone seeking to justify his/her buying decisions.

Claudia said "what is really important for me is the quality" and this is a fine and laudable attitude to have. However, after not liking the 214CS, she then sought to justify her decision to buy the B170 as being the result of a 'quality' issue; the 214CS was not one of "the (other) better ones," etc. As this is provable to be factually wrong (in terms of a musical instrument, though perhaps not aesthetically), I merely pointed out that as quality issue was probably not concerning the piano, but elsewhere. I am presuming that the dealer is serious about selling these pianos now (though obviously was not that serious during the past 9 years!), and they were all in tune and reasonably-well prepared.

A B170 is a exquisitely-made small grand piano, and I hope that the Claudia is very happy with it. However, it was just a shame that she felt the need to invent things out of thin air in terms of 'quality' essentially to slam what she didn't like (or most likely appreciate/perceive/understand.) If the Claudia had written "I came to the conclusion that a 7ft piano is too big (and/or loud) for my piano room, and/or I don't like satin finishes, and all in all I prefer the sound, finish and look of the B170, so I bought it," I would have had no further comments, apart from sincere congratulations.

"an owner merely defending his choice of instrument"

Aaaaargh! ;\)


Michael B.
Posted by: curry

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 12:50 PM

Michael we might like DeLaFée chocolates, but many actually enjoy eating Hershey's. Sometimes one may be lost to the taste of the other.
Curry- Chocolate Nazi.
Posted by: turandot

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 01:04 PM

 Quote:
so 'vive la différence' and all that malarkey.
Malarkey, huh? \:D

Michael B,

I understand your answer, and you are right that it takes two to tango (or tangle). I have noticed that often when members reveal their final choice here, they inadvertently kick aside the other pianos that lined the race course to the finish line. I guess it's all part of the rationale that leads to and affirms a decision.

Let's just assume that there was something really special about that 170. I've learned (from reading here \:D ) that at the highest elevation of the high-end, individual samples vary greatly. So maybe among the individual samples of the breeds that were available, the 170 was a true thoroughbred.

I didn't congratulate Claudia either, so let me add my congratulations to yours.

Claudia,

Congratulations on a terrific piano! I enjoyed reading your thread.
Posted by: ftp

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 01:14 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Claudia -:
FINAL OUTCOME

I really think that there is a difference between the CS series and the other (better) ones, as it is not the same sound quality with the C series and the S series of Yamahas.

[/b]
What are the different ingredients between the CS and C that would lead to this statement?
Posted by: Andromaque

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 01:43 PM

curry
Keep the 24k gold and pass the chocolate. I treated myself an hour ago to a couple of truffles from Teuscher . I walked back and forth to Madison Ave to burn the extra calories.. But they were worth it. The Swiss don't build pianos ( I often wondered why... too much democracy may be??.. no patrons supporting music??) but they sure know chocolate...
Claudia
sorry for the deviation. Congratulations on your piano. I must say I came close to going for a stunning 170 until I met a Steingraeber. I fell for him, heels first. Regardless, you love the piano and you got it.. Enough said!
Posted by: PoStTeNeBrAsLuX

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 04:39 PM

curry c-n:
Sometimes one may be lost to the taste of the other.

Hi there, hope you are well. Yesterday evening I had the pleasure of getting myself outside of most of a bar of Lindt Excellence Ecuador 75%... the remaining sliver of which I consumed with coffee this morning ;\) . Of course we are a bit spoiled over here when it comes to Things Chocolatey, even at the local supermarket. This was the first time I'd tried the Ecuador; it's usually a few bars of Madagascar 70% that gets thrown in the shopping basket each week.

Michael B.
Posted by: Kieran Wells

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/22/09 05:00 PM

The prices quoted in this thread are anomalous. They are lower than current wholesale. Unless the dealer is planning on not stocking the item anymore, it is pretty crazy to sell for less than what you can replace it for. In fact it is a stupid move no matter how you look at it. Even if they were just trying to wholesale it out, the responsible thing would have been to wholesale it to another dealer. Our store would have paid that for the 170. Good for you Claudia and shame on the dealer for smudging the perceived market value to those who skimmed the thread. The only thing that I can think of is that they are going to pocket the $ and not pay the bank. Just conjecture though. Who knows. Did they look as though they had a drug problem? No doubt however, this dealer will probably not be selling any more Bosendorfers.

Good for you though. You really got a superb instrument.
Posted by: AJB

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/23/09 02:53 AM

Kieran - did you just skim the thread? Wakey wakey - don't criticize others for what you have evidently just done yourself.

The dealer has switched to Steinway only.
Hence is not replacing his Boesendorfer inventory.
The pianos are getting on for a decade old.
Wholesale at that time would have been below the sale price now. He will not care what cirrent wholesale is.
Maybe the dealer does not want to sell to a competitor - that is often the nature of competition in business you know.
There is no justification whatsoever for assuming that the dealer even has a bank loan let alone will default on it.
The drug reference is just plain silly and discredits you.

Adrian

PS, In case it vanishes, this is what you said:

"The prices quoted in this thread are anomalous. They are lower than current wholesale. Unless the dealer is planning on not stocking the item anymore, it is pretty crazy to sell for less than what you can replace it for. In fact it is a stupid move no matter how you look at it. Even if they were just trying to wholesale it out, the responsible thing would have been to wholesale it to another dealer. Our store would have paid that for the 170. Good for you Claudia and shame on the dealer for smudging the perceived market value to those who skimmed the thread. The only thing that I can think of is that they are going to pocket the $ and not pay the bank. Just conjecture though. Who knows. Did they look as though they had a drug problem? No doubt however, this dealer will probably not be selling any more Bosendorfers."
Posted by: brahms

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/23/09 05:11 AM

Michael B,
However the misplaced analogy above merely serves to spread misinformation on a forum which is consulted by people looking for reliable and correct information, and it is also in that spirit that I felt the need to set the record straight
I absolutely agree with you on the above statement. Thankyou for coming to the defense of owners of the inferior CS series. The only differences are in the single strings vs. looped strings, and a 40 hr polish vs an 8 hr job over the cast iron plate, none of which affects the sound and action of the piano. Bosendorfer do not use inferior material for the CS series. They only produce less than 250 pianos including uprights, and it has a staff of only 250. they are not interested in messing around with a less than perfect job.

Claudia, you were trying out the CS214, which is produced much later to produce a more familiar sound, I tried several 214 both CS and traditional and there were only 2 200s on the floor through out an area of 50 miles. I came to the conclusion that these are 2 different pianos with their own characteristics of sound. the CS 200 has a darker tone that I like better. Both my tech and my teacher, who is a seasoned performer liked the CS214, and it is meant for a small concert hall. I have tried my best to prefer it, but I settled for the smaller 200, The choice is a very personal one. At the time, there was a 214(glossy) on the floor that the dealership wanted get it off the floor, but I still like the sound and action of this CS200. It is so ready, although I can easily live with any of these pianos-no complaint what soever! I even checked the facts by calling Vienna. Enjoy your piano.
Posted by: BoseEric

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/23/09 10:22 AM

The subject of the difference between our regular line and the CS lines comes up every so often. To repeat, the only differences between the regular line and the CS line you see on dealers floors are the following:

1. looped instead of single stringing
2. exterior and plate finish.
3. possibly less time in final voicing.

Point 3 is why you may find a bigger variance in the CS series than the regular line.

Remember, the CS is intended as an institutional piano, where it's going to get kicked around and played for hours every day. The thinking is to cut cost everywhere we can while making sure it is still a Bosendorfer. The production spec calls for slightly less time in final voicing. Since it's going to get the tar beat out of it how long will that final factory tone last anyway?

The reality is that the factory has a very difficult time letting a piano out that is not perfect which is why some sound more even and more like the regular line.

I assure you all the structural components are EXACTLY the same as the regular line with the exception of the 3 points above. This includes the quality of the spruce in the rim and soundboard, the hammers, EVERYTHING.
Posted by: Steve Chandler

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/23/09 12:25 PM

Claudia,

Congratulations on making the deal of the year. You even aroused the ire of a current Bosie dealer. I'm sure you'll be very happy with you B170. Play and enjoy!!

However, I did want to comment about one of your comments.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Claudia -:
I have been thinking of testing the Shigeru Kawais... but as I have been advised here (in another post)... Shigerus will still be Kawais, and although it is not a bad brand... they are not at the same level of Steinways, Bosendorfers, Grotrians, Bluthners... and the list goes on...
[/b]
You are aware that Larry Fine rates the Shigerus in group 1C, the same as New York Steinway and higher than Yamaha S series. Having played some Shigerus (SK2, SK3 and SK7) I'll simply say that their sound does not appeal to me, I like a piano with a more robust sound. I would call the Shigeru sound highly refined, but I've played smaller pianos that could achieve a more dramatic sound (my preference is for an instrument that can jump out of the box). I will say that within that refined sound paradigm I've not played an instrument that was as supremely controllable with an action that was both fast and light. I could do things on the SK7 that I simply couldn't do on any other instrument.

I mention this only because I know someone personally who did something similar. She bought a Steinway M (an instrument I know well and I feel she could have done better) after visiting a local Yamaha dealer and made the decision that she didn't want to bother with Kawai. In my market that was unfortunate because at the time our Yamaha dealer didn't bother prepping and tuning their instruments, whereas the Kawai dealer was particularly fastidious about this. My point is there are many factors that can affect a purchase decision. I know that Kawai pianos and especially Shigeru Kawais can be world class instruments and would have been worthy of at least taking a look. They are certainly not Yamahas with a different name on the fallboard.

Do enjoy your Bosie and there's no need to feel bad about your choice. Your situation reminded me of something a little closer to home and I felt compelled to comment, if only to disabuse other readers of the notion that Yamaha and Kawai are two peas in a pod. The Shigerus really are something special, especially if their sound appeals to you.
Posted by: Claudia -

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/23/09 01:17 PM

Dear fellow musicians and piano lovers, as well as dear technicians, tuners and piano dealers / sellers:

First of all, thank you so much for your best wishes and congratulations on my new baby.

Regards to my so SO BAD WRITTEN comments comparing Bosendorfers series CS and regular ones, please permit me apologize and clarify:

I am Argentinian, so my native language is spanish. I have a few troubles with the english grammar, and my vocabulary is not very rich as I would desire. So in order to express something, many times I try to use the shorter way I can find, and still I can't get the right words. And I think this is what happened with what I commented here.

So here goes my clarification.
I have been wisely advised about the size and how it matters in the piano world.
I knew and experienced myself (specially with New York Steinways) the difference between S, M, O and A lengths. When I tried at the New York Steinways dealer these models I eliminated from my wish-list models S, M and even O. I tried at least 4 pianos of each model, and for my PERSONAL TASTE they are NOT worth the price they ask (S, M or O, New York Steinways talking). So I had to think of an A or bigger (which price is not worth either, FOR ME, for my personal judgement). Then I focused myself on As... but the touch and sound didn't fulfill my soul, ears and fingers desires.
It is true that IN GENERAL, the bigger the better (although FOR ME this is not necessarily valid for all the brands, specially if I compare the same size of different brands. I experienced that Bosendorfers are more powerful. This is what I humbly think, and it is valid only FOR ME).
The B170 (5'8") sounded more harmonic and richer than any New York Steinway O (5'10"). But I tried in Argentina a 1958 Hamburg Steinway M, smaller, that sounded richer and deeper than any New York Steinway O and even A that I tried in the USA.

Now let's go to my unfortunate comments about the Bosendorfer B170 I bought and the 214CS I tried.
Remember I said:
"Of course I tried the 214 CS, and I didn't like it. I would preferred to pay more for the 170 (it is NOT a CS serie) than for this huge 214 CS."
But please pay attention that I was talking about THIS CS214, not all the CS214s, because truth be told, that is the only CS214 I have tried in my life.
I didn't like the touch and the sound of THAT ONE CS214 I tried. I asked the seller why is that some keys would make an unwanted repetition, he was inspecting... he said that it was necessary a very good regulation. I saw a few scratches on the finish... I learned it was played for concerts in the showroom... I don't know for how many concerts... who knows...
Then I tried this B170 PE, that doesn't need anything except the first tuning at home: exceptionally well regulated... etc. etc... I fell in love with THIS B170, and I didn't like THIS CS214.
Besides, I don't have a room with the acoustics to truly enjoy the power of any CS214, good or bad regulated...
What I recognize it is very bad worded from my part is when I wrote: "I really think that there is a difference between the CS series and the other (better) ones".
Fortunately I never said that I was informed for sure that CS series are worst... I said "I think..."
And yes, it is bad to make generalizations and assumptions, specially if beginners or not informed pianists read these forums, because it creates mistakes.

Anyway, selecting a piano is a SO PERSONAL AND SUBJECTIVE decision. The one you like... I despise... the one I choose you find horrible...
That is why I would never buy a piano that I didn't try.
And also that is why I have never asked in this forum: "What piano do you think has the best sound or action?" I just asked help to know if the price for this Bosendorfer was right or not. And when I talked about the CS214 was just to answer the comments or questions on why I focused myself on the B170 instead of the CS214 which price was also unbelievable.

Besides, as Turandot said here:
"there is a minority position that individual manufacturers' best achievements are not necessarily their longest ones."
Again, I cannot confirm if this is valid for CSs and regular series about Bosendorfer.
But in my poor, uninformed and so ignorant opinion this is valid for these particular two pianos I tried. And again, it is valid just for me.

Regards the comments that because I chose the B170 (and not the CS214) it was possible to assume that I prefer the cosmetic, exterior aspect over the sound that the pianos produce (the look over the quality)... Let me emphasize something I mentioned before: Just beside the B170 polished ebony I bought, the dealer has a beautiful, impressive model "YATCH" (what a good looking, extraordinarily handsome piano!!!) for only $ 4,500 more (in the market this model is easily $ 10,000 more at least).
I (fortunately) have that extra amount of money... but I liked more the touch and sound of the less beautiful one. And the more I tried both (the black and the Yatch, both 170), the more I liked the black one... the cheaper one, the uglier one!!!
So... I am absolutely sure I chose quality over good looking. And I am particular proud I did it. Therefore now I am married to the ugly and small boy... but he was who seduced me with his qualities (against all odds!!!) and will make my life happier than the handsome good looking boy or the bigger, robust, impressive-sized man.

I hope that I clarified this issue.

Best regards to everybody, again.
Claudia
Posted by: Kieran Wells

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/23/09 03:33 PM

Adrian,

I did indeed skim the thread-my fault. I was obviously to busy to properly post. My intention was to call attention to how ridiculous a price it is. Adrian, I do not do this for recreation only, I do it for a living and have done so for about a decade. I do love pianos and for the most part the contribution the enthusiastic people here make to the industry. It was indeed a mistake to skim the thread but I do my best to keep all the balls in the air and don't always have a lot of time to devote to this kind of thing. I all of a sudden had a store full of customers and had to be quick.

Good for Claudia, and I mean that.

The piano did seem to find a good home though. She sure went above and beyond doing her research.

I would love to meet you some time to see what you are like in person. Until then, keep up the enthusiasm!
Posted by: AJB

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/23/09 05:12 PM

Fair enough Kieran. I have heard good things about Jim Laabs pianos so I was surprised at such a tetchy post. Clearly an aberration. Claudia got a good deal.

Kind regards,

Adrian.
Posted by: RickG

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/23/09 06:26 PM

Claudia, You are to be congratulated !! Best wishes with your new piano!! We want to see pics when it arrives!
Posted by: TLuvva

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/23/09 08:50 PM

I've visited the store myself and found it full of pianos of every sort including a Bosey 225, a model that always gets me going. I believe I spoke to Kieran and they were quite tolerant of my questions and average playing ability. Certainly worth a visit! But too cold to visit often. Sorry MN, but Georgia is much warmer and even GA is too cold for me.

Again, congratulations Claudia and good luck with the English. I was trying to get a little Spanish going during a recent visit to Costa Rica (now that's warm). My words to you are "Puede hacerlo!"
Posted by: Deerwood Dad

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/23/09 11:25 PM

TLuvva -- You are right about Kieran's grace and tolerance for average (or in my case even sub-average) playing. But I don't think the Bosie being discussed was at Jim Laabs.

By the way, you wouldn't have to wear that silly mask if you breathed a bit more of our refreshing Minnesota air, which currently is at a balmy 10 degrees (15 degrees warmer than it was this morning). \:D
Posted by: turandot

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/24/09 02:40 AM

This is all getting silly, and I don't mean tluvva's mask. I assume it's something that he feels he needs to wear when he posts here.

Claudia did business with a Bosendorfer retailer who had his representation terminated around the time [edit: "around the time" should be "well before" / Thanks to Boseric for the correction] that Yamaha took over, although probably not because of that. It's completely up to that retailer how and for what price he wishes to sell his remaining inventory.

Claudia chose a piano from his inventory, not from the Bosendorfer factory. She chose the one she liked the best. Time after time I read here that people should choose the one they love. Isn't that what she did? Now instead of that we get this stuff about how the Bosendorfer 214 is a pro instrument and the implicit inference that the 170 isn't. What does that mean and who cares?


Ninety-nine percent of those who read here would probably exchange their piano for hers in a heartbeat. I know I would.
Posted by: FogVilleLad

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/24/09 04:58 AM

Claudia chose the piano whose tone she prefers and whose size she considers to be appropriate for her piano room. Considering that some of us regularly post about the importance of comparing showroom acoustics to piano room acoustics and considering also that she auditioned other pianos, I'd say that the lady knows what she's doing.
Posted by: lilylady

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/24/09 08:56 AM

Is today the day, Claudia?

Do you have your fingers ready?

Do you have your camera ready?

\:D
Posted by: BoseEric

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/24/09 09:43 AM

Just a clarification. The dealer in question ended their relationship with Bosendorfer a number of years ago, long before the acquisition by Yamaha.
Posted by: John Pels

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/24/09 10:32 AM

The final arbiter of what satisfies the buyer is THE BUYER. If Claudia is happy, that is all that matters. It is important to know yourself, your goals, desires and abilities to best determine what your needs in an instrument actually are. Here at PW, we sort of try and impose the collective on the individual and each of us believes in his heart that we (individually) are right. As I just sat playing the last movement of the Schumann Fantasy and I drifted from low D flat octaves to lowest B flat octaves (when the theme re-states in A flat), I realized that the instrument I have is "right" for me. This movement is slow and largely contemplative. There is plenty of time to relish those sonorities.

Of course, I could also relish the sonority of $40K rattling around in my bank account.
Posted by: PoStTeNeBrAsLuX

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/24/09 12:39 PM

JohnP:
If Claudia is happy, that is all that matters. It is important to know yourself, your goals, desires and abilities to best determine what your needs in an instrument actually are.

Indeed. I agree most violently \:\)


Here at PW, we sort of try and impose the collective on the individual and each of us believes in his heart that we (individually) are right

Perhaps. However, if you read a little more carefully at what was written above, you will find that the only 'imposition' in this particular case was that the purchaser in question did not to invent 'quality' issues and erroneous analogies with no factual basis, merely to justify and affirm a buying decision.

If someone only has room for or indeed has stated a particular preference for a smaller instrument, then I (and I think most here) would not attempt to persuade him/her otherwise. Suggest that s/he makes the effort to audition other alternatives, yes, but 'impose' I think not.

To be fair to Claudia, she has since apologised (both on and off list) for her misleading comments, although somewhat qualified by saying she meant that particular CS example was of 'lower quality' and that she said 'I think' rather than 'I know' about the CS being essentially of lower quality (cf. Yamaha C versus S series), and not being mother-tongue English. Not very convincing IMO, but of course better than nothing. At least a manufacturer's representative, in the form of BoseEric, has also since stepped in to set the record properly straight for others reading this in the future.

Of course, I could also relish the sonority of $40K rattling around in my bank account.

Life is short and you are dead for a very long time afterwards. And a rich man is just a poor man...with money ;\)


-Michael B.
Posted by: Steve Chandler

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/24/09 01:38 PM

Claudia,

I tried to respond to your PM, but your mailbox is full.
Posted by: Aristocracy

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/24/09 05:46 PM

Hi, Claudia. Was this Bosendorfer at a Trombino's? I just wanted to know, seeing as how I live in Pittsburgh and have been to a couple. Thanks.
Posted by: Claudia -

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/24/09 06:59 PM

THE BEAST ARRIVED!!!!!!
Yessssssssssssss............

For those who wanted to take a look, I put the pictures here:
http://www.4shared.com/file/89322790/9557989a/Bosendorfer.html

(I don't know how to include pictures in PW)

Claudia
Posted by: SHPiano

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/24/09 08:52 PM

It looks wonderful Claudia! Enjoy!
Posted by: lilylady

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/24/09 09:05 PM

Great looking piano Claudia!

Are your fingers falling off yet?

;\)
Posted by: jazzyprof

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/24/09 09:20 PM

Congratulations, Claudia on your beautiful new piano. You're one lucky lady!
Posted by: swampwiz

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/25/09 12:50 AM

As someone who recently has bought a lesser quality piano at a super discount, this sounds like a good deal. The 9 years the piano has had at the dealership has been very pampered; the piano is probably at the same level of degredation as a normal piano of maybe 3 years.

Look, you like the piano, which is very important for the stratospheric level of a brand like the Bosie. Years from now you will feel great that you had made the wise decision to buy this piano. And since the dealer will be replacing this with a Steinway, you have helped the American economy.
Posted by: brahms

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/25/09 04:12 PM

Claudia,
it must be a video, because I can't view it at work, it is blocked. I'll view it at home.
I read your post and I understand. By the way, I heard from my high level techn. that The Bos. factory is not producing small grands in stock, They have to be specialy ordered I wonder whether these are fancy wood inlaid and special editions one. So it is fortunate that you got yours! p
Posted by: Claudia -

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/25/09 04:21 PM

Hi Brahms, Thanks!!!!!
It is not a video. I put 5 pictures in a PDF file. And yes, if you are trying to download it in your work, you must be blocked to access to this type of links (your company doesn't want to risk that you may download a file with a virus).
Take care!
Claudia
Posted by: brahms

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/26/09 01:04 AM

Claudia,
what I saw is a pretty big Grand, it does not look like a 170 cm.! glossy! p
Posted by: Claudia -

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/26/09 01:35 AM

Not only that... it sounds as a grand!!! Honestly... it needs a bigger room.
I am so impressed!

When I learn what's a good and relatively unexpensive gadget I can use to make a video with high quality sound to be seen through a computer, I will do it and share it here.
Any suggestions? What device should I buy that is not very expensive (brand, model, price)?
Don't tell me anything to record with the computer. My PC room is far away from the piano room, so it has to be with a portable gadget).

Claudia
Posted by: FogVilleLad

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/26/09 02:42 AM

There's a comparison of digital audio recorders here. Clicking on the Model Nos. takes you to reviews. It'd be worthwhile to be confident that you understand what these recorders can and cannot do. Some of the folks here and on the digital forum can probably help.

The Sony PCM-D50 is well worth considering. The chart has been around for a while, but I think that the PCM-D50 is still that company's top model. If it's not available locally, amazon.com has it for $500.
Posted by: TLuvva

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/26/09 08:34 AM

Piano looks awesome. I'm just annoyed with myself for how much I would like to be a Bosey owner though I feel fortunate to own a C6. It all stems from that first time I sat at that 225 and there seemed to be such a difference from it and the others.

Hey boys, at least PART of my face is in my avatar. I'm not hiding behind a pic of my DOG! (OK, I'll use a Graemlin, just to be sure that's taken correctly: \:D ) It's meant to be self-deprecating since it's one of the more ridiculous looking photos of myself (although there are more).

And Deerwood D, I keep up with the temp up there because I have friends and business there and have to go myself from time to time. I honestly don't see how you do it. It's freezing enough here!
Posted by: lilylady

Re: Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer? - 02/26/09 08:56 AM

Claudia,

Many on these forums have supported the ZOOM H4 and ZOOM H2 company.

There are a few threads on them. See the SEARCH feature above and make sure that it searches through all the forums. The Adult Beginner's Forum I think, is where a thread that is about 20 pages long resides!

It does a good job.

Then one can go to the computer and download it to hear it. For better listening, put it on a CD and listen through your stereo system.

I have the Zoom H4. $250 or there abouts. Google for the best price.

Beware though...we often get the red light syndrome when recording ourselves!