small cracks at bridge pins

Posted by: wouter79

small cracks at bridge pins - 04/02/10 03:27 PM

I noticed a number of tiny cracks around the bridge pins in my new piano. You kind of need magnifying glasses to see them but I know there is a lot of stress on these pins.

Is this normal?

Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/02/10 03:57 PM

It is not normal or better yet appropriate.
Posted by: KawaiRX7Dude

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/02/10 04:26 PM

I hope the piano is still under warranty. A similar thing happened to a piano I owned when I was younger and the whole bass bridge had to be rebuilt. I'd get a technician to look at it when possible.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/02/10 04:28 PM

You should notify the dealer and request a warranty service call.
Posted by: Mark...

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/02/10 04:29 PM

Is this the piano that was in the store for a long time? Curious what brand is it?
Posted by: SeilerFan

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/02/10 04:49 PM

What piano is this? Age? Size?
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/02/10 04:54 PM

Thanks for your expert advice.

This is a Petrof

I bought it new so yes, it must have been in the showroom many years.

I have had a piano technician inspect the instrument and he thought it was in good condition. At that time I did not know about these cracks. Later I checked the bridge because one or two notes are a bit harsh and I could not find the cause. I am not sure whether these cracks are related to that because these cracks are on more places while the harshness is just on a few notes.

I will contact him again with this photo.

BTW I have a question about a technical inspection as I had done on my piano. What could I expect from such an inspection? I expected the technician to inspect all kinds of details with glasses, pull out the keyboard for a good inspection, etc, but he mainly made some comments on the tuning.
Posted by: Lushey1

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/02/10 10:57 PM

The cracks are in the bridge cap(only that hopefully).They are not a good sign and probably should have been picked up in the inspection.You may want to think about changing the piano over,

Ian
Posted by: Rich Galassini

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/03/10 01:49 PM

Dear wouter,

This is a clear situation. A crack like that should be covered under warranty. Have the dealer look at this. Depending on the manufacturer and the location of the crack, the piano will either be repaired or replaced.

Keep us posted,
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/04/10 03:07 AM

UPDATE

The dealer told me that it depends on whether it is a superficial crack or a crack throughout the entire bridge.

The dealer is coming next week to have a look at it in person.

A few questions:
1. To me these cracks look superficial, at this moment. Is my impression correct?
2. What makes these cracks particularly worrying? Will they grow over time? Will it change the sound of the piano already now? Does it cause problems with tuning? Or something else?
3. On the photo you can also see a small gap at the bottom of the pin, the pin does not seem to fit tight into the hole. Is that also a concern?
Posted by: pianobroker

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/04/10 03:37 AM

1.I'm not a bellyman but know enough as for obvious observations. I can confer with my bellyman tomorrow.
I don't think any bridge crack can be considered superficial because eventually it won't be superficial.

2.They (cracks) will grow over time because the bridge pins are moving because of the string tension. It will change the sound because it affects the side bearing and ?. It will affect the tuning because it is affecting the stability of the bridge pins.

3.The pins have moved already.
Posted by: Robert 45

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/04/10 02:28 PM

Hi wouter79,
If, as you claim, there are many of these cracks along the bridge where the bridge pins have been inserted, then it is a very serious defect in your piano.

Good piano tone is dependent on stable termination points on the bridge. Apart from unstable tuning, the sound of the piano may become feeble with buzzes and false beats.

I would insist on a new replacement piano, not a repair.

Let us know...

Very best of luck!

Robert.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/04/10 04:31 PM

Thanks for this feedback. I think this is very important in the process to come.

The small gaps under the pins, is that normal or is that already indication that the two upper pins also moved?

What should be the main argument to ask for a replacement piano instead of a repair (I suppose replacement is much more expensive)? Can I even ask for such replacement, even if the dealer says everything will be fine after repair?

Is there maybe something I should do? Like ordering an official test report on these pins? Can someone here provide such report (maybe based on photos that I can make?)

Also I bought this piano for the sound, can I require a possible replacement with a sound that I like or could I end up with a bad sounding piano in case of replacement?

"If, as you claim, there are many of these cracks along the bridge where the bridge pins have been inserted, then it is a very serious defect in your piano."

I spotted some 6 of these cracks in a quick scan. I probably missed a few. Don't know if that counts as "many" but it's not an isolated single pin that has this issue.

"I'm not a bellyman"... I do not understand this term, please explain?
Posted by: pianobroker

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/04/10 05:14 PM

Bellyman! I don't have a protruding stomach as in downing a six pack every opprotunity. grin
A belly man is a person in the industry as for their expertise lies in addressing the soundboard,bridges,ribs etc.. Many many rebuilders are versatile and have this expertise as well.

If it is a new piano,you got two viable options. Have them recap the bridges to your satisfaction suppling you with a loaner in the meantime or a permanent replacement. Whether they commission someone in the states or send it back to ? who knows?
Good luck ! wink

Posted by: master88er

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/04/10 06:38 PM

Your main concern should be to determine if there is movement caused by pressure on the bridge pin by the string. A crack likely means that there is movement, and I am surprised that the technician who inspected the piano for you (since he mentioned tuning as an issue) didn't search further. Most dealers would keep their stock tuned, and the fact that the instrument had a tuning issue could be a red flag for a technician.

Even if the piano were on a dealers floor for several years, you purchased a new piano and are entitled to have one free of flaws. Nearly every manufacturer covers manufacturing defects, and from the photo it appears that it should be covered. However, if it is simply the cap of the bridge, you would be entitled to have it repaired by the factory or their representative, not necessarily have the piano replaced. Most warranties allow the manufacturer to repair or replace at their discretion.

I would suggest that you hire a certified RPT in your area to inspect the piano for you, if for no other reason than to have a straightforward analysis of the issue. Additionally, if the RPT finds that you have little to worry about, and that a simple fix (such as epoxy) is warranted, you will sleep much easier.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/05/10 02:59 AM

"Most dealers would keep their stock tuned, and the fact that the instrument had a tuning issue could be a red flag for a technician."

It arrived very well tuned (in my ears, I'm not a tuning expert but my ears are good).
The technician inspected the piano within 3 weeks after delivery and then he already indicated the piano was in need for tuning.
The technician (and dealer too) told me that getting un-tuned is not unusual when the piano is moved. I also heard that on this forum.
The technician did tune two notes when he wanted to show me that the harsh notes were due to being not tuned properly. He did not report having problems with tuning these two notes.

But I do think he should have inspected the bridge more in detail and spotted the cracks.



"However, if it is simply the cap of the bridge, you would be entitled to have it repaired by the factory or their representative, not necessarily have the piano replaced. Most warranties allow the manufacturer to repair or replace at their discretion.
I would suggest that you hire a certified RPT in your area to inspect the piano for you, if for no other reason than to have a straightforward analysis of the issue. Additionally, if the RPT finds that you have little to worry about, and that a simple fix (such as epoxy) is warranted, you will sleep much easier."

Thanks, I suppose that this is what the dealer is targeting at. How can you see if this involves only the bridge cap and that the crack will not develop further?

And what about the small gaps below all the pins? Above was indicated that this allows the pins to move a little; would it be necessary to fix ALL pins?

I agree with the need for a good independent report from a technician... I probably have to find another technician.
Posted by: pianobroker

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/05/10 03:36 AM

If the piano was new, an epoxy repair is out of the question.
You do that when the cracks appear 50 years later.Not being aware of exactly the location of all these cracks,it is hard to make an exact assessment how one is gonna remedy this problem. By the way your cracks are in the bridge cap. If the cracks are confined to just the upper upper treble section,than they will most likely recap just that section. Now if they are all over,than recapping the entire bridge cap is alot more labour which will entail destringing,restringing etc. The domino effect comes about. What does one do pinblock wise in this case. Oversized pins when restringing the piano ? If the job gets to extensive than repair will not make sense unless they send it back to the factory. So....now you know a little more. If they do decide to subcontract the job out to a local independent,call me, I'll refer them to my bellyman who will notch those bridge caps better than the original. grin

Im curious, were those bridges vertically or horizontally laminated ?
Posted by: Robert 45

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/05/10 03:47 AM

Hello again wouter79,
It is very sensible of you to seek a range of opinions.
If you have found at least six cracks around the bridge pins it would seem that there was a problem with the wood used for the bridge capping. It may not have been properly seasoned.

It would be a major job to recap the bridge and your new piano would no longer be "new" after such an extensive repair. The strings would have to be removed and this could affect the stability of the tuning pins.
Liability would seem to lie squarely with the manufacturer and it is dealer who is the manufacturer's agent and he or she must take responsibility.

You bought your piano as a new piano and you are the unfortunate victim in this saga. It is legitimate for you to assert your rights as the purchaser.

All the best!

Robert.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/05/10 04:06 PM

Thanks again for the extensive replies. I am happy to receive this amount of detail feedback from you all.

"If the piano was new, an epoxy repair is out of the question. You do that when the cracks appear 50 years later."

Why is this out of the question?

And, are others here also against using epoxy to fix cracks on a new piano (and why)?

"Not being aware of exactly the location of all these cracks,it is hard to make an exact assessment how one is gonna remedy this problem."

I will shoot some more details and post including their location when my camera is recharged. The crack above is at the B3, right below the central C4.

" By the way your cracks are in the bridge cap."

What is the "bridge cap"? "cap" suggests me a separate part but the bridge looks to me like a solid piece of wood, no laminations? Only on the treble section there seems to be a separate "cap".

"The strings would have to be removed and this could affect the stability of the tuning pins. "

I was not aware of this. So do I understand right that if they have to remove the strings they will harm the integrity of my entire piano?

Now people here seem to have ruled out both recapping and using epoxy. Then is there any repair method left?
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/05/10 04:12 PM

"Im curious, were those bridges vertically or horizontally laminated ?"

I can not see any laminations. I will post a larger photo later, maybe you can see or maybe there is no lamination at all?
Posted by: David-G

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/05/10 07:22 PM

If this is a new piano, I would have thought that this was a warranty matter. If it were my piano, I would want it replaced, not repaired.
Posted by: Dale Fox

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/05/10 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: master88er
Your main concern should be to determine if there is movement caused by pressure on the bridge pin by the string. A crack likely means that there is movement, and I am surprised that the technician who inspected the piano for you (since he mentioned tuning as an issue) didn't search further. Most dealers would keep their stock tuned, and the fact that the instrument had a tuning issue could be a red flag for a technician.

Even if the piano were on a dealers floor for several years, you purchased a new piano and are entitled to have one free of flaws. Nearly every manufacturer covers manufacturing defects, and from the photo it appears that it should be covered. However, if it is simply the cap of the bridge, you would be entitled to have it repaired by the factory or their representative, not necessarily have the piano replaced. Most warranties allow the manufacturer to repair or replace at their discretion.

I would suggest that you hire a certified RPT in your area to inspect the piano for you, if for no other reason than to have a straightforward analysis of the issue. Additionally, if the RPT finds that you have little to worry about, and that a simple fix (such as epoxy) is warranted, you will sleep much easier.



I find this to be the most reasonable reply concerning your piano.

Russell represents some very high quality pianos and understands the warranty world very well.

I may be mistaken but I believe the last Petrof I had in the shop for repair had a solid, un-laminated bridge with a cap only at the high treble section. It also had a fair amount of small surface cracking but as it was getting a new soundboard and new bridge caps that was not a major concern. That particular piano started it's career in Taiwan then went to St Louis and then Arizona and finally Sacramento. I dare any bridge capping or soundboard to survive those humidity extremes untouched.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 02:40 AM

Here is a photo of the bridge, the higher registers but not the highest part. I don't see lamination here

Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 02:42 AM

There seems no bridge cap, so would that imply that these cracks will be growing over time?
Posted by: mikewu99

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 07:57 AM

Originally Posted By: wouter79
"If the piano was new, an epoxy repair is out of the question. You do that when the cracks appear 50 years later."

Why is this out of the question?

And, are others here also against using epoxy to fix cracks on a new piano (and why)?

While the epoxy repair may stabilize the cracks and fix the pins from moving, the repair would not be invisible and you would have a cosmetically defective piano. This will have a negative impact on the value of the piano. Potential buyers would see evidence of a repair done to an almost new piano. Add to this the fact that said repair is typically done to older pianos to extend their life before rebuilding (extrapolating here a bit from pianobroker's post) and a significant number of potential buyers will be scared away. Any time you reduce the potential pool of buyers you are negatively impacting the value.

You take enough of a depreciation hit once you bring a new piano home. Even though you may never dream of selling your piano, there is no reason to take the additional hit to its value due to this defect.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 09:07 AM

Originally Posted By: mikewu99
Originally Posted By: wouter79
"If the piano was new, an epoxy repair is out of the question. You do that when the cracks appear 50 years later."

Why is this out of the question?

And, are others here also against using epoxy to fix cracks on a new piano (and why)?

While the epoxy repair may stabilize the cracks and fix the pins from moving, the repair would not be invisible and you would have a cosmetically defective piano. This will have a negative impact on the value of the piano. Potential buyers would see evidence of a repair done to an almost new piano. Add to this the fact that said repair is typically done to older pianos to extend their life before rebuilding (extrapolating here a bit from pianobroker's post) and a significant number of potential buyers will be scared away. Any time you reduce the potential pool of buyers you are negatively impacting the value.

You take enough of a depreciation hit once you bring a new piano home. Even though you may never dream of selling your piano, there is no reason to take the additional hit to its value due to this defect.


Mike make a key point. Unless there are very special circumstances we don't know about, this piano should be replaced under warranty.

That's what would happen at my store. I would "force" the manufactuer to do so.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 10:32 AM

Thanks for this explanation, yes this is an important point and I can not predict if/when I have to sell the piano.

But I can not force the manufacturer in any way at this point, as it is the dealer from which I bought the piano and he is responsible.

I am also a bit worried about using epoxy,

* epoxy is also detoriating over time and in my experience it detoriates much faster than wood.
* epoxy might fix the problem at the surface but you can't see what happened further down the crack. Did the epoxy go all the way down, can you be sure? When I fix things with epoxy I always take the parts completely apart and apply epoxy to both sides but that seems impossible here.
Posted by: Stearman

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 11:03 AM

I would not worry about the epoxy, because your going to get another piano. This is like buying spanking new car, and there are dents all along the side. Upon delivery, you could drive it (or play the piano), but it is not in new condition and you would ask for a replacement car pure and simple.

Cracks in wood happens, but not to new pianos. Companies have been putting pins in these blocks for 200 years, and they don't crack on the showroom floor unless there is a defect of some kind, and customers don't accept defects to new equipment.

As a side note, today's glues are of outstanding quality to the glues of yesteryear. If I were to glue something together, could I expect it to hold 70 to 100 years? Absolutely. Just look as all of the wooden airplanes glued together flying around out there. The stuff works and I have no problem risking my life on pieces of wood that I have glued together.
Posted by: Jeff Clef

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 11:27 AM

"...I can not force the manufacturer in any way at this point, as it is the dealer from which I bought the piano and he is responsible...."

Let's say that at this point, the better approach would be to inform the dealer about the problem, in a letter, backed up by your own, independent RPT's written report, and accompanied by photographs. It would be more polite to phrase your letter in terms of a request, and to state clearly what you want (replacement), and why (to protect the value).

You might send the same letter and attachments to the manufacturer, including a photocopy of the warranty (and serial number), and your bill of sale. A brief covering note that you have just contacted the seller will help them to know at what stage the matter rests. They will want this information anyway.

Your warranty is a legal document which gives you certain rights (which can be enforced in court, if it comes to that), and it is an agreement with the manufacturer--- not the seller. The dealer will normally act as the maker's agent for warranty matters, but sometimes the distributor will act as the maker's agent, or the head office may act for themselves.

It is much more likely that they will want to do the right thing for you, and will help you to resolve the problem to your satisfaction. It's a process, of course, and they will want to have their own technician inspect also.

There are some professional whiners and outright neurotics out there, who cannot be made happy no matter what is done for their piano (because their problem lies elsewhere). From what you've said and shown, this would seem to be another kind of story; a faulty bridge on a new piano is a manufacturing problem and is clearly a warranty matter. It's unusual, and they will want to see it proved up... but that's what warranties are for.
Posted by: Mike Carr

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 12:54 PM

wouter79,

If this is an older "new" petrof originally handled by GIC, you may be out of luck unless the dealer steps up to the plate.

I'm curious, since you haven't mentioned it, what does your warranty say? And your specific model? From the pictures it appears to be one of the P "roman numeral" models.

Is your warranty from the dealer, the manufacturer? Is it backed by Geneva International?



Mike
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 02:26 PM

Jeff,

I thought it good to have the dealer have a look at it first and listen to his recommendation. If he recommends replacement then I do not need to hire a RPT. The more official route of sending photos to him with an RPT report and communicating with the manufacturer seems to me a second step.

I already made an appointment with the dealer, he wants to see in person.

My warranty says 5 years warranty but no further details. This is the warranty offered by the dealer. No mentioning of any backed, I suppose the next in line is the manufacturer. Model is model P IV.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 02:32 PM

Here is a pic of bridge pins of the lowest string.
Notice the small bump, did they already do some repair here?

Posted by: crispin

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 03:36 PM

I had a problem with a new piano... a Bechstein... and Bechstein told me that it was a problem between myself and the piano dealer where I bought it (in France)... This dealer advertised themselves as the 'Bechstein Centre' so in my opinion the reputation of Bechstein was also involved. Eventually the importer of Bechstein into France became involved ... and sorted out the problem in a very good and excellent way. I am not sure if there is some central importer of Petrof into the US ... but maybe you should get them involved if the dealer does not respond in a proper way.
But as other say get a report made by someone independent...
good luck -
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 05:27 PM

OK two more pics, the g5 and g#5. Note that this is entirely different part of the bridge than the first crack



Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 05:35 PM

And one of the B1 and Bb1.

Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 05:44 PM

UPDATE

I got feedback from the technician on the first photo.
Particularly his second commend seems to differ significantly from is said here.


1) I asked him if he thinks it needs further inspection,
His reply (translation by me):

"These cracks are not necessarily a problem, but I recommend you to contact the dealer and/or manufacturer and maybe request a repair under warranty"

2) I also asked if these cracks have efect on sound, tuning stability, whether the cracks will grow etc. He wrote:

"This can not be predicted. These cracks are regularly seen in new instruments. Usually they do not form any problem soundwise etc."
Posted by: Mike Carr

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 10:05 PM

wouter79,

It's always good to nail down the warrantor's responsibilities before you buy a piano. I believe the current Petrof factory warranty is five years. I don’t know why you don’t have the factory warranty card. Maybe the dealer keeps it? Anyway, you can enter your serial number on Petrof’s warranty website to see if everything matches with what the dealer has told you . . . might be good to do this before the dealer shows up . . . just to know exactly where you stand . . . there’s also an email for Petrof’s US service rep . . . I’m assuming you’re in the States . . .

I mentioned Geneva, Petrof’s former distributor, because not long ago I ran into a character selling a P II with the old ten year GIC warranty card (five year factory-five year Geneva) claiming it was transferable . . . The piano was 4 years old and he was trying to sell it new, etc. Not a bad sounding piano, but . . .



Mike
Posted by: Roy Rodgers

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/06/10 10:52 PM

I'm going to put in my two cents worth here. The pic with the lowest note and the bulge by the pin looks to me like the wood is being displaced because the pin is moving.

The next few pictures with the cracks and the openings around one side of the pin looks like several much older pianos I have seen lately in my neck of the woods.

The wood is cracking and allowing the pin to move. This will not stop on its own. And with this happening in more than one place on the bridge it means the piano is due some very major work. Sad since it is so young. Resembles the 70 something year old "Heine" we just replaced at our church for this very reason. But it was old, had been in a very dry environment.

Your piano will become very difficult to maintain a tuning because when the tension is increased on the strings to bring it to pitch, the pins will move and allow the pitch to move. This will be very frustrating for you and your tech.

If you can, press hard for a replacement piano.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/13/10 01:46 PM

UPDATE

The dealer was here today to have a look.

Basically he denied any problems and thinks this bridge is in great shape.
He mentioned a lot of points to support this:

1. If the wood is not OK the bridge would break down within half a year and this piano is older
2. Regarding the gaps around the pins, this is because the piano tuner ticks on the pins to tighten the strings under the pins
3. What seems to be cracks are not cracks, but this is the string pushing itself into the wood because it is forced around the pins.
4. You will see the same in other pianos.
5. The bridge wood is never sanded perfectly flat to start with. I think he mentioned this considering the bumps.
6. The first four or five times the piano will de-tune quickly because of switching to a different tuner that uses different methods.
7. There is hardly any play in the pins. Only if the pins would be standing straight up (i.e. there would be a HUGE crack) then there would be an issue.
8. He got quite angry/upset (don't know which) at this whole issue. According to him the piano technicians are exaggerating this problem. Partly because they did not receive commision on this piano, partly because there are too many piano tuners with too little pianos causing low income for them, and partly because this is a chance to gain importance regarding the acquisition and judgment of a piano.
9. He asked me to point out these cracks, he did not see them apparently. After pointing one out he basically repeated above and I did not proceed pointing out the others.
10. He told me that for each technician that I bring in that confirms the problem he can bring in one that denies the problem.

He is going to ask a second opinion from one of the piano tuners that works for him.

The dealer proposed to return my money and take back the piano if I insist, as he thinks we will get into a stalemate.
Posted by: Robert 45

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/13/10 01:58 PM

I would indeed immediately insist on his final proposition and rid yourself of a defective piano and an unscrupulous dealer.

All the best!

Robert.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/13/10 02:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Robert 45
I would indeed immediately insist on his final proposition and rid yourself of a defective piano and an unscrupulous dealer.

All the best!

Robert.


While I disagree with the dealers comments on the problems, he has offered a full refund.

I would hardly call him unscrupulous.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/13/10 05:17 PM

I think I need to check out the bridges of a number of other grands at the same level of detail. I will try to visit a few piano dealers to see for myself.

Also maybe some of you have a good camera and can take a few photos properly focused fotos of the bridge at close distance?
Posted by: Jeff Clef

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/13/10 06:00 PM

If it were me, I'd take the refund... and without delay.

Meanwhile, don't let the the tech's written evaluation, the close-up photos, the written warranty, and your "Paid" invoice (with the serial that matches your piano) get away from you... until the refund check clears.

This seller may be upset at losing the sale, but that is not your lookout. Part of the purchase price is, after all, set aside to cover warranty expenses, and the manufacturer should make this good with the seller. I congratulate you on your restraint, not to have exposed him by name on the forum... and I wish you better luck in your piano shopping.
Posted by: newgeneration

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/13/10 06:17 PM

I can't believe this whole post.
Did you buy a new piano? Yes.
Should a new piano have cracks around the bridge pins? No.
Everything else (although important) doesn't matter. Period.

If you bought a car and a section of the chassis was flawed, would you insist on a new car, or, wait until you were in an accident to find out that the frame was too weak and people were seriously injured when it could have been avoided.

I'm amazed that technician's would even offer any advise other than insisting the dealer either repair or replace to you, the customers, full satisfaction.

Wouter, at this point (considering what the dealer had the audacity to tell you) take your money back and then let everyone know which dealer it was.

Sorry, I have no patience for dealers that don't know anything about pianos and still try to sell them.
Posted by: manofsong

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/13/10 06:54 PM

Take the refund. Then run.

C
Posted by: fe2008

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/14/10 12:07 AM

"Take the refund. Then run."
+2
Posted by: sophial

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/14/10 09:21 AM

Yes, take him up on this before he changes his mind and get out now.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/18/10 03:03 AM

I went to a piano showroom (not the one where I bought my piano) and checked their grands for cracks.

I checked 7 NEW grand pianos and found this

two pianos have a few cracks but in the lower bass section (mine has most in the c3-c4 range)

five pianos have a bit of gaps (space around pins not tight)


For comparison I also checked 3 older pianos, 20 to 40 years old. One of them had cracks in the high notes, and one of them had slight gaps.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/18/10 03:49 PM

I also checked a few old ones.

A steinway from 1961, two very small cracks and a few gaps in the high register but nothing else.

A steinbach of 1976, no cracks at all, a few gaps

A yamaha from 1976, multiple cracks in high registers. No gaps at all.

A dysen from 1906. A few cracks in the range c3-c4 similar in size and location to what is in my piano.

an iback from 1900. Loads and loads of cracks, very bad cracks scattered around the bridge. Lot of the cracks have been filled up with white stuff.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/18/10 04:01 PM

Why haven't you taken the dealer's offer for a full refund?
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/18/10 04:05 PM

From my piano inspections it shows that about 30% of the new pianos have cracks. (although my own piano has more cracks and more serious cracks than what I saw mostly).

Gaps around the pins seem even more common, about 70% of the new pianos seem to have them.

Nevertheless almost everyone I spoke with says that such cracks are inappropriate. Apparently dealers do not check for cracks at all and are just selling those pianos.

Also, from these numbers one would expect all old pianos to have cracks and gaps but this is not the case. In fact most older pianos that I saw look in great shape. Now I wonder, is that because only the good ones remained, were pianos build better to start with, or something else?
Posted by: TX-Dennis

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/18/10 04:36 PM

I think you should get that refund while you still can. Wait too long, and the dealer may change his mind or worse yet, go out of business. You may have no warranty at all if the dealer closes since this is probably one of the Geneva International Petrofs. I repeat: TAKE THE MONEY AND SAY THANK YOU.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/18/10 05:11 PM

Again, why haven't you taken the dealer's offer for a full refund?
Posted by: Konzert Patrick

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/18/10 05:13 PM

You are playing expensive games......
My Yamaha GC1 had no cracks neither has my Schimmel.

It is not normal, you should take the refund, the piano is supposed to last a lifetime... this hardly will happen like this!

You money, your gamble, just be careful.
Posted by: Jeff Clef

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/18/10 07:05 PM

"From my piano inspections it shows that about 30% of the new pianos have cracks. (although my own piano has more cracks and more serious cracks than what I saw mostly). Gaps around the pins seem even more common, about 70% of the new pianos seem to have them. Nevertheless almost everyone I spoke with says that such cracks are inappropriate."

As many as that? Hmmm. It raised enough of a question in my mind that I went downstairs and looked at my RX-5's bridge; it's about two-and-a-half years old. Gaps = zero, "White stuff" = zero. Then--- I saw what looked like a hairline crack down toward the bass end of the bridge. Taking a closer look, it turned out to actually BE a hair. I could even name the dog it came from. So, Cracks = zero; "Bad animal!" Oh well, I shed, too, so who am I to accuse the dog.

So, Wouter--- you're going to keep it, cracks and all, then? I'd ask you why, but I can't bear to read any more. However, next time I go to a piano store maybe I'll take a magnifying glass, and...
Posted by: howardc64

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/18/10 08:19 PM

The black stuff around the pins is exactly what I saw in a 12 year old Weinbach this weekend (it was around a few bass string pins)). It looks like some black stuff is feathering from the pins.

Since Weinbach is made by Petrof, is this something characteristic of Petrof manufacturing? Is there some kind of paint/dye that causes this feathering?
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/19/10 01:21 AM

"Why haven't you taken the dealer's offer for a full refund?"

That option is still open.

The reason that I'm not eager to return it is that I really like the sound and that it took me so long to find one that I like. Returning it would mean that I have to re-start searching and I would be without piano again, maybe for a long time.
Posted by: Konzert Patrick

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/19/10 02:03 AM

The piano you have now will give you trouble in the future.
With the money of the refund you can look around, try the same piano at a few stores, they do not vary that much! You now know what you like and dislike so the search does not have to take such a long time.....
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/19/10 03:13 AM

I think I forgot to mention: the dealer wanted a second opinion and that will happen friday. I wait at least till then.
Posted by: David-G

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/19/10 03:17 AM

"The dealer proposed to return my money and take back the piano if I insist, as he thinks we will get into a stalemate."

You should have accepted this offer immediately, and then there would have been no need for a second opinion. Do you have confidence in the person who is going to give the second opinion?
Posted by: cinstance

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/19/10 08:39 AM

After reading this thread, I held a flashlight and inspected my Kawai RX-3. To my relieve, zero cracks.

Speaking from the view of a mechanical engineer. As long as there is a crack, the stress is going to concentrate on it and the defect is going to develop further until it fails, which is a rather common knowledge. I would insist on a full refund.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/19/10 09:23 AM

It is HIS second opinion, not mine. I can not say if I trust him as I have not yet met him.

Would it matter to me what his second opinion determines? Are you suggesting that he can retract his offer (It seems to me that his offer would still be standing even if his second opinion would agree with the dealer?)
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/19/10 09:25 AM

"With the money of the refund you can look around, try the same piano at a few stores, they do not vary that much! You now know what you like and dislike so the search does not have to take such a long time....."

I agree partially to that I now know what I want and that I may be able to find it quicker now. The problem is that I already heard some points for improvement on my current piano and that the next one I like most likely will be out of my budget...
Posted by: maserman1

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/19/10 02:42 PM

Wouter79.
I don't understand why you are so hesitant. There should not be ANY cracks from the bridgepin holes. You have had some very good advice here - take the refund and run.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/19/10 06:40 PM

Cracks and the like due to aging limit the woods performance over time, not the case with granite bridges.
Posted by: David-G

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/19/10 07:21 PM

"Are you suggesting that he can retract his offer (It seems to me that his offer would still be standing even if his second opinion would agree with the dealer?)"

I have absolutely no idea. But can you be 100% certain that he won't? If he detects your hesitancy, I am afraid that he might retract the offer.

"I agree partially to that I now know what I want and that I may be able to find it quicker now. The problem is that I already heard some points for improvement on my current piano and that the next one I like most likely will be out of my budget..."

While I understand your feelings, you will forgive me for observing that this does not seem a very convincing reason for keeping a faulty piano. (And of course, a point of improvement on your current piano would be an intact bridge.)
Posted by: AJF

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/19/10 08:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Cracks and the like due to aging limit the woods performance over time, not the case with granite bridges.


No offense dude, but there is a poster here trying to sort out a very troubling situation and I hardly think a plug for your miraculously ground-breaking granite bridges is appropriate.

To the OP: what I'm getting so far from this thread is that you really like your Petrof and if there is any way to NOT get rid of your piano you would rather go that route. Most of the posters here have good intentions but, when it comes down to it most of us (RPT's aside) are giving advice based on nothing more than common sense backed by little or no real expertise in these matters. I think what you need (to restate what's been said already) is the opinion of a truly impartial expert (ie RPT). Piano enthusiasts (ie owners and players) are quite often neurotic by nature and not the best sounding board for these types of matters.
Good luck. I really do hope you end up happy and satisfied at the end of this ordeal.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/20/10 05:15 PM

Thanks for your input.

AFJ, Yes I really don't like the prospect of returning this piano.

I agree that a solid advice from a good technician would help. I was unfortunate to hit upon a bad technician.

An RPT (Dale Fox) also responded here and he seemed to agree that "Even if the piano were on a dealers floor for several years, you purchased a new piano and are entitled to have one free of flaws." And this is not a simple cap replacement since there is no cap. I conclude that also he suggests replacement.
Posted by: Stearman

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/20/10 06:05 PM

Wouter, I understand your hesitation. My Steinway is 97 years old, and is all original. Lots of hairline cracks in the bridge. My piano has a beautiful sound, that being said, when it gets out of tune, and a note does not play perfect, I wonder, is it because of the bridge? Even though you are enjoying your piano right now, and love the sound, it will go out of tune, and you will worry about the bridge pins moving as the culprit. My old girl has been around the block a time or two. Hell it was build before air conditioning and humidifiers. It has had a tough life and some dings are expected, that being said, if I was to buy a rebuilt or new piano, I would not accept any cracks no mater how good it sounds. I guess I just would not want to keep wondering if the bad sounding note is the result of cracked wood.
Posted by: Jeff Clef

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/20/10 06:19 PM

"Cracks and the like due to aging limit the woods performance over time, not the case with granite bridges."

I should show you my kitchen counter. Two years old, granite; cracked. The installers' fault of course, not the granite's. Still, even the hard rocks can suffer stress fractures... and if it had looked like this on Day One, there wouldn't have been a Day Two.
Posted by: AJF

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/20/10 06:48 PM

Originally Posted By: wouter79
Thanks for your input.

AFJ, Yes I really don't like the prospect of returning this piano.

I agree that a solid advice from a good technician would help. I was unfortunate to hit upon a bad technician.

An RPT (Dale Fox) also responded here and he seemed to agree that "Even if the piano were on a dealers floor for several years, you purchased a new piano and are entitled to have one free of flaws." And this is not a simple cap replacement since there is no cap. I conclude that also he suggests replacement.






So what's the current plan of action?
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/21/10 03:47 AM

Current plan is as follows

1. The dealer's technician will have a look at it to give the dealer a second opinion. I will take his opinion with a big grain of salt because his opinion likely is biased towards the dealer's opinion.

2. I have asked two technicians here whether they have expertise on bridge issues. I hope one responds soon and has time soon to get his input too.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/23/10 04:48 PM

UPDATE

Today the technician sent by the dealer was here.

He tuned my piano, was badly needed :-)

Basically his opinion was in line with the dealer's.

He said he had seen many pianos with cracks
He thought the cracks in my piano were caused when the pins were hammered into the bridge.
He is sure that these cracks will not grow further and that this does not affect the sound.
He thinks these cracks are too small to consider a repair. They are too small to glue and seem not worth to take the piano apart which would be necessary for a recap. Besides a recap would change the sound which is not desirable either.
He said that these cracks look superficial
He also said that even if the pins would be loose the strings would pull the pins tight
He even went to the same extreme as the dealer: only if the pins would be so loose that they changed orientation then this would be an issue.


Again, I take this with a large grain of salt.
I will await my second technician's report.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/23/10 08:33 PM

Go bsck to the store. Look at all other grands on the sales floor. See how many have similar cracks.

Better yet, take up the dealer's offer for a full refund. You can always find another that sounds as good and is more flaw-fee.
Posted by: Dale Fox

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/24/10 02:21 AM

Originally Posted By: AJF
Originally Posted By: wouter79
Thanks for your input.


An RPT (Dale Fox) also responded here and he seemed to agree that "Even if the piano were on a dealers floor for several years, you purchased a new piano and are entitled to have one free of flaws." And this is not a simple cap replacement since there is no cap. I conclude that also he suggests replacement.






So what's the current plan of action?


Just to be clear, concerning what you have in quotes above. I did mention that most Petrofs do not have bridge caps. You attributed someone else's advice as coming from me. My only comment on the topic was the second post on page three. I try to stick with facts in evidence not legalities I am unqualified to comment about.

BTW, there is nothing simple about a cap replacement. Below is the full comment I made in context.

I find this to be the most reasonable reply concerning your piano.

Russell represents some very high quality pianos and understands the warranty world very well.

I may be mistaken but I believe the last Petrof I had in the shop for repair had a solid, un-laminated bridge with a cap only at the high treble section. It also had a fair amount of small surface cracking but as it was getting a new soundboard and new bridge caps that was not a major concern. That particular piano started it's career in Taiwan then went to St Louis and then Arizona and finally Sacramento. I dare any bridge capping or soundboard to survive those humidity extremes untouched.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/24/10 02:36 AM

Steve,

I did that, see my post #1419529 - 04/18/10 04:05 PM above.

"You can always find another that sounds as good and is more flaw-fee."

Yes but this was the first one that also was within my budget.


Dale Fox,

Please correct me if I understood you wrong. You wrote "I find this [master88's post] to be the most reasonable reply concerning your piano.". From this I understood that you were mostly agreeing with master88er, who said that "Even if the piano were on a dealers floor for several years, you purchased a new piano and are entitled to have one free of flaws."
Posted by: Dale Fox

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/24/10 08:57 AM

Wouter79,

it was the entire context of the post by master88 that I was referring to. Legal requirements allow the manufacturer a broad palette of choices when dealing with warranty issues. At their discretion they could choose to repair, rather than replace. This repair could take the form of anything from a simple epoxy repair to a complete replacement. To suggest, as many have, that you are guaranteed a replacement by the manufacturer is just not required, unless you have a special clause written into your purchase contract.

As it is, it sounds as if the dealer is stepping up when he offered to replace the piano. As to the severity of the problem, I don't get extremely alarmed at what I've seen from the posted pictures. I've seen worse in much higher priced instruments, straight from the factory. I get alarmed when I see cracks that are in line with the neighboring bridge pins and show signs of "connecting the dots".

The following is the rest of 88's post.


""Nearly every manufacturer covers manufacturing defects, and from the photo it appears that it should be covered. However, if it is simply the cap of the bridge, you would be entitled to have it repaired by the factory or their representative, not necessarily have the piano replaced. Most warranties allow the manufacturer to repair or replace at their discretion.

I would suggest that you hire a certified RPT in your area to inspect the piano for you, if for no other reason than to have a straightforward analysis of the issue. Additionally, if the RPT finds that you have little to worry about, and that a simple fix (such as epoxy) is warranted, you will sleep much easier.""
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/24/10 10:04 AM

Dale,

Thanks for the explanation. I understand that there are more ways for the dealer to fix this issue than replacement.

"As it is, it sounds as if the dealer is stepping up when he offered to replace the piano. "

No, he did NOT offer to replace the piano. He offered a refund.

"I get alarmed when I see cracks that are in line with the neighboring bridge pins and show signs of "connecting the dots". "

Like this? (the a6 in my piano). I did not notice other places where the cracks connect 2 dots.

Posted by: acortot

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/24/10 10:55 AM

they sure are using cheap wood these days from the looks of it..

yikes!
Posted by: fe2008

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/24/10 11:31 AM

I still don't know why you're with this piano yet. Srs.
It sounds clear to me: If a dealer sends "his" tech of course they'll have the same opinion.
Sorry man, but it seems they're fooling you. If you ask for a refund I am not so sure if it would be a smooth negociation.
Posted by: sophial

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/24/10 11:48 AM

If you can get the refund, TAKE IT!
Posted by: Roy Rodgers

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/24/10 02:05 PM

Those cracks will continue to grow, and the tuning stability will become severely limited. The pins will move. They are already showings signs they are moving now.

Since that bridge is not capped, the cracks will spread through out the bridge wood. I'm not sure even an epoxy repair would stop that from happening.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/24/10 04:12 PM

Monday I let my (second) technician look at it. To be sure I removed the dealer sticker from the piano... Then I will have to make up my mind.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/24/10 04:29 PM

Dale,

Thanks for the additional information.

Can you tell if these cracks need treatment in any case? Are these cracks going to grow as people here belief? The dealer's technician said that they will not grow anyway, even without treatment.
Posted by: Dale Fox

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/24/10 06:50 PM

Originally Posted By: wouter79
Dale,

Thanks for the explanation. I understand that there are more ways for the dealer to fix this issue than replacement.

"As it is, it sounds as if the dealer is stepping up when he offered to replace the piano. "

No, he did NOT offer to replace the piano. He offered a refund.

"I get alarmed when I see cracks that are in line with the neighboring bridge pins and show signs of "connecting the dots". "

Like this? (the a6 in my piano). I did not notice other places where the cracks connect 2 dots.




Thanks for the clarification on what the dealer offered. I didn't read every post apparently.

And yes, like that.
Posted by: fe2008

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/25/10 01:51 AM

every single person in this thread is telling you to return this piano... I'm not sur why are you still asking for more opinions.
Posted by: Sparky McBiff

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/25/10 07:58 AM

Originally Posted By: fe2008
every single person in this thread is telling you to return this piano... I'm not sur why are you still asking for more opinions.


My thoughts exactly.
I just purchased a brand new grand myself and if upon delivery I found the same sort of cracks that you did you better believe that I would be looking to return it in a flash.
The bottom line is you just don't know if those cracks are going to get worse over time.
I don't see why you are willing to risk that chance.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/25/10 08:17 AM

"I'm not sur why are you still asking for more opinions."

I'm not really asking for more opinions here as it is pretty clear what the verdict here is. It is just keeping all here up to date.

"every single person in this thread is telling you to return this piano..."

It's a bit less black and white (I also received PMs with slightly less black/white opinions). But yes the general consensus is that I should return it.

On the other hand all three experts that came here and judged in person thought this piano is in good shape. But only the first one was independent of the dealer and I have slight doubts even about that. Therefore I decided to have a second technician have a look at it in person.
Posted by: rodmichael

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/25/10 05:56 PM

I've been watching this thread for a couple of weeks it seems, and I guess I have the same question everyone else has: What are you waiting for? I have no doubt what I'd do, and I don't believe I'd have needed 2 weeks and 50 outside opinions to make the decision.

I believe there's information that you haven't revealed to the respondents on this thread. I say go to a quiet room and make your decision. Cease the public agonizing for such an obvious (to the rest of us) decision. Move on.

BTW, I don't want to be kept up to date on this. The dealer offered a refund. That's all we need to know. What your decision is is of no further interest except perhaps to you. And I'm not sure of that.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/25/10 08:22 PM

+1

And considering that the re-sale value would be negatively affected, acepting the refund or exchange is a no-brainer.

Why are we here?

Let this thread die!
Posted by: Jeff Clef

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/25/10 10:11 PM

If I had to guess, I'd say that a really special and low-cost deal--- possibly involving some irregularity with the instrument (a cosmetic flaw, maybe)--- is on the table... something wouter is not going to be able to equal elsewhere, let alone beat. If he gives up this 'bird in the hand,' the 'bird in the bush' is going to cost significantly more. And, the piano budget being only so elastic, he may have to move downscale or wait until he saves enough to get what he really wants.

Or, possibly, there's something especially attractive about the deal itself... maybe some special financing feature.

Maybe the wife has put her foot down, or has her thumb on the scale somehow, so that the natural balance point cannot be read.

Just guesses, of course. As rodmichael pointed out, we don't have all the information, and maybe it's none of our business to know it. I am, personally, willing to keep it that way. No one has to read this thread, if it's become too agonizing. Hey--- maybe we should be practicing our piano lessons; I know I should.

And, the take-home lesson is: take that close look at the piano FIRST, before the deal is struck and a problem lands in your living room that you're not really willing to solve.

As Mae West used to say, "When choosing between two evils, I always pick the one I haven't tried yet."
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/26/10 06:43 AM

"Why are we here?"

You tell me! I'm not forcing anyone to read this thread. I guess people want to know how it goes?

If you don't want to read it please stay out.

There was no "really special" deal. I do feel that I finally found a nice sounding piano and really hate the prospect of restarting a similar long lasting search - or even longer as I already saw most nearby dealers.

"And, the take-home lesson is: take that close look at the piano FIRST, before the deal is struck and a problem lands in your living room that you're not really willing to solve."

Even if I had my first technician with me, he would have told me that this is a great piano.
Posted by: Larry Larson

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/26/10 07:06 AM

Now for a psychological/emotional perspective-- given your level of concern I don't think you'll ever be totally at peace with this piano and be able to fully enjoy it even if you became convinced the problem wasn't serious.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/26/10 04:41 PM

UPDATE

To my relief my second technician confirmed the problem. At least I am now sure what's up here.
So it's definitive, this piano has to go cry

Quote:
I don't think you'll ever be totally at peace with this piano and be able to fully enjoy it even if you became convinced the problem wasn't serious.


Yes this is also an important point. But the official judgment from the technician was the main point.
Posted by: SeilerFan

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/26/10 05:15 PM

Makes you wonder why the dealer and his technician would claim that this problem was only minor while trying to fight your concerns. My trust would be shaken and I would never want to do business with this person again.

Even though you got good advice here, it was good that you brought someone in who was independent and who confirmed the concerns of people here. I hope you can get your money back. I am sure you'll eventually find a great piano to your liking.
Posted by: AJF

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/26/10 09:12 PM

Originally Posted By: SeilerFan
Makes you wonder why the dealer and his technician would claim that this problem was only minor while trying to fight your concerns. My trust would be shaken and I would never want to do business with this person again.

Even though you got good advice here, it was good that you brought someone in who was independent and who confirmed the concerns of people here. I hope you can get your money back. I am sure you'll eventually find a great piano to your liking.


+1

Glad you finally got this issue resolved Wouter.
You know, after you get your refund you might want to contact Petrof and report this dealer's practices. He sold you a piano that is defective and then tried to deny that anything is wrong with it when you brought it to his attention.
Posted by: sophial

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/27/10 11:45 AM

Originally Posted By: AJF
Originally Posted By: SeilerFan
Makes you wonder why the dealer and his technician would claim that this problem was only minor while trying to fight your concerns. My trust would be shaken and I would never want to do business with this person again.

Even though you got good advice here, it was good that you brought someone in who was independent and who confirmed the concerns of people here. I hope you can get your money back. I am sure you'll eventually find a great piano to your liking.


+1

Glad you finally got this issue resolved Wouter.
You know, after you get your refund you might want to contact Petrof and report this dealer's practices. He sold you a piano that is defective and then tried to deny that anything is wrong with it when you brought it to his attention.


+2
And what is with the technician who also denied any problem with it? Is this a matter of depending on business from the dealer to stay afloat and therefore he's biased in favor of the dealer? Maybe this is just business as usual in piano sales but I hope not. It's pretty disturbing from a consumer perspective.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/27/10 12:08 PM

UPDATE


I tried to contract Petrof (the manufacturer) for more than a week but they never replied.

I checked with the distributor, and it shows that this dealer was not an official Petrof dealer. Therefore they could not help me either.

I mailed the dealer and told him I would take his refund. They came right away, and I got back my money.

I can just guess what the dealer and his technician were doing. My (optimistic) guess is that no one can tell for sure how these cracks will develop. Their approach may be : let's just see, when it becomes a real problem we will kick in the warranty (if it is still valid). As hardly any bridge crack probably develops until the pin falls out in just 5 years (warranty period), they will never face the consequences of this approach and thus it seems the right approach.
Posted by: ChasT

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/27/10 12:19 PM

If the dealer isn't an official Petrof dealer, will there even be a warranty?

You did the prudent thing.

Charles
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/27/10 01:17 PM

Of course there is warranty. To my knowledge:
1. The dealer gives a warranty.
2. There is the factory warranty. But that comes in only after the dealer warranty I think. The dealer is the one to deal with in warranty cases because you bought it from him.

In my case I think the factory warranty had expired but the dealer warranty was still 5 years from the day of purchase.
Posted by: Susan K.

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/28/10 10:34 PM

Wouter79,

Personally, I searched today for your thread, because I wanted to know what your private technician said. I'm glad that you got your money back, and I'm also glad that you did it on YOUR terms, with what made you feel comfortable.

It's all good and well for 50 people to tell you to get your money back, but it's your piano and your decision. And I think that you used this thread for exactly what it's designed for, to help you through a big decision.

I'm sending wishes through the universe that your search for that perfect (crackless) piano in your price range won't take nearly as long as your first attempt.
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/29/10 04:58 AM

Originally Posted By: wouter79
I can just guess what the dealer and his technician were doing.


And from own experience, I can just guess what they are doing right now: flogging the same piano off on another unsuspecting customer.

For every Wouter who inspects his piano and finds the cracks, there are probably ten John Doe's who don't - relying on the (dealer's?) tech's judgement.

The cracked bridges will find a loving home yet.
Posted by: Konzert Patrick

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/29/10 05:49 AM

Just see it this way... you are now free from trouble and can find a great piano again.
Maybe the same model, maybe a different one... maybe a different brand!


How exciting!

Enjoy it.....
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/29/10 01:21 PM

Susan, thanks for the good wishes.

I had to cancel my lessons and that is disappointing. My teacher offered me to find a simple replacement to bridge the gap until I find a new one. But I politely did not accept that as I know a good piano sound is what I like so much and I don't want to play just to keep in technical form. Most uprights have not so nice actions either...

Actually I saw my piano back in the shop. It said something like 'has been played on for two months due to family circumstances'. And, it was priced a few thousand HIGHER than what I had paid !
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/29/10 01:23 PM

Patrick, yes, but I first have to recover from the shock ;-)
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/29/10 09:32 PM

Just checked out this thread. Oh my.

I'm no piano tech, but it doesn't take a Ph. D. in physics to understand that an abundance of cracks in a system maintaining tons of pressure is not a good sign.

I opened the lid of my five year old beast to examine it for comparison purposes. No cracks. Pristine. Much more uniform construction too.

Alas, I have to agree with Mark R.'s suspicion that the piano will be out the door again quite soon.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/30/10 08:19 AM

At dealers I saw a significant number of "new" pianos with cracks. BUT you have to look very carefully, just a brief glance at your bridge might leave you with the impression that there are no cracks. Make sure you scrutinize a large number of these pins with magnifying glasses and good flash light before believing that there are no cracks.
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 04/30/10 09:39 AM

The cracks on your former piano's bridge were fairly obvious. And I don't really need a magnifying glass. I'm quite nearsighted, which means I can get up close and personal with things without need of a magnifying glass. smile
Posted by: wouter79

Re: small cracks at bridge pins - 05/02/10 03:58 AM

"The cracks on your former piano's bridge were fairly obvious."

From the photos, yes. But with the naked eye, no.