brodmann

Posted by: melissap

brodmann - 02/25/06 09:52 PM

I was in to a store today where I heard a Brodmann piano, and I really liked the sound/feel of it, but I was wondering if anyone has heard anything about them? Please let me know!!! The salesman said they are made by the same people who make Bösendorfer pianos.
Posted by: Benecs

Re: brodmann - 02/26/06 01:57 PM

Hi! Brodmans are good quality chineese pianos. They are not made by the same people like bösendorfers. :-)
Posted by: Benecs

Re: brodmann - 02/26/06 02:10 PM

Hm, just about a year ago I read about brodmanns been made in china, but now there is nothing about that on the homepage. Take a look:

http://www.brodmann-pianos.com/
Posted by: Bob

Re: brodmann - 02/26/06 07:47 PM

We just started carrying them at the store. I like what I see so far. I emailed them with a comment and got a response from the company President - that tells me they really care about the customer.
Posted by: melissap

Re: brodmann - 02/27/06 11:06 PM

Awesome! Thanks for the responses...only thing that bothers me a bit is that the dealer swore they were made by the same people (literally) that make Bosendorfers...he saw that I was skeptical, but was unable to show any proof other than the info that Bosendorfer studied under Brodmann before going off on his own. Anyways, I liked the Brodman better than the Yamaha and Kawais that I played and the salesman quoted a price of $3900 for a new 47" ebony Brodmann-what are you selling them at in Florida, Bob? Thanks!!!
Posted by: Benecs

Re: brodmann - 02/28/06 12:43 PM

I'm sure it's a great piano, I have never played one, but a famous hungarian pianist told me about them and said it would be a great piano (of course you cannot compare them with bösendorfers. Anyway I'm still sure it's not made by people from Bösendorfer. Maybe they have learned at bösendorfer. I don't know.
Posted by: melissap

Re: brodmann - 03/30/06 12:54 AM

Well, after further study/talks with others, I purchased the Brodmann, and I absolutely love it!!! It was delivered three weeks ago and I can't stop playing! Thanks again for all your input, I appreciate it!
Posted by: Norbert

Re: brodmann - 03/30/06 02:12 AM

Brodman is just another of the many European-Chinese ventures which will introduce astoundingly new high quality pianos now coming on market.

Brodmann was a project started by Boesendorfer years ago before they had to eventually abondon it, this apparently due to financial difficulties.

The new Brodmann pianos and grands are really beautifully sounding pianos, each identically equipped with genuine German Strunz soundboards, German Helmut Abel hammers, the English made Langer action and, of course the obligatory high end German Roslau strings.

Judging by its tone, touch, design, manufactured components and execution of built and construction - Brodmann, from our experience and in our opinion, is a piano nearing almost now already the very edge of quality before reaching true high end.

Several piano dealers in the U.S. have confided to me that this is one of the most *worrisome* pianos coming up as a new competitior, especially in their own neighbourhood....

Due to their long affiliation with other, perhaps more established makes, it has often prevented them from 'making the move' adopting the line.

Gladly, we did not face the same kind of problem and have made our choice accordingly.

Norbert
Posted by: AndreaH

Re: brodmann - 03/30/06 01:17 PM

Melissap - Congratulations on your new piano!!! Are you going to post pics for us?
Posted by: LucyHeeg

Re: brodmann - 08/04/06 07:30 PM

Melissap, how has your Brodmann worked out for you? Any thoughts post-purchase that would help a prospective Brodmann buyer? I am impressed with the Brodmann sound quality. I have read all I could about them from this forum and web searching. The price I was quoted was $4,900 new, which is quite a bit higher than the quote you posted back in February of this year. Does anyone have thoughts on whether this is an appropriate price? Or any other thoughts regarding Brodmann quality? Thanks for any thoughts or recommendations out there.
Posted by: Brick

Re: brodmann - 08/04/06 09:57 PM

I have been inside some Brodmann grands. Very nice quality, touch and tone. A very solid representation of what may be much more common in the future: European-Chinese pianos that are coming out a lot nicer than the Chinese pianos of the past, and competing strongly with mid-range European pianos. From what I have seen I would call them an excellent piano at the price range they are in.

Another I have seen that has broken away from the reputation of Chinese-assembled pianos as 'low end' is Hailun.

I suppose eventually they will have pianos assembled there capable of competing in each quality tier. But as yet I have not seen a hint of Tier 1.
Posted by: Brick

Re: brodmann - 08/04/06 09:59 PM

Sorry, I didn't notice this thread was so old. But maybe my info will be of value to someone anyway.
Posted by: Sir Lurksalot

Re: brodmann - 08/04/06 10:48 PM

As long as the thread has been revived: Most, if not all, of their uprights are made in Europe. The grands are made in China. The company was founded by some ex-Bosie guys, but the pianos are not "made by the same people..."
Posted by: Brick

Re: brodmann - 08/04/06 11:38 PM

Sir Lurksalot,

Any idea where the uprights are made? Czech Republic perhaps?
Posted by: Cy Shuster, RPT

Re: brodmann - 08/05/06 12:16 AM

Their "European Premium" line is made in Vienna and Germany, according to Fine. The rest are made in Hubei Province, China.

--Cy--
Posted by: Colin Crawford

Re: brodmann - 08/05/06 06:47 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Cy Shuster:
Their "European Premium" line is made in Vienna and Germany, according to Fine. The rest are made in Hubei Province, China.

--Cy-- [/b]
I took the trouble to inspect and tune a 121 sized upright which was sold to a client in Gloucester by Bristol Piano Company and it was mightily impressive. Full agraffe construction, high quality components and immaculate build considering the price was around half that of a discounted Yamaha U1, a very good buy indeed and even vaguely comparable, although the U1 is the better instrument.

Unusually for the UK, the piano was sold with a ream of paperwork, which I read enthusiastically outlining the links between Brodmann and Bosie (Joseph Brodmann originally employed the young Ignaz Bosendorfer.... tenuous, but historically nice!) and their partnership with Langer actions. I must say that the action fitted to this particular 121 was very well machined, but bore no distinguishing marks nor branding of Langer. Construction seemed more Oriental than European, but certainly better than a goodly proportion of Polish and Czech examples. Reading on, I recall that the handbook said (to paraphrase a bit!) "The Instruments are made by our partner in the Far East under strict quality control standards which are regularly checked to ensure they meet the highest European standards..... the voicing and regulation are at a level which surpasses all standards of similar products from the Far East" No mention of Germany or Austria being sources of manufacture, but unashamedly, if slightly inscrutably "Far Eastern".

The recent links between Brodmann and Bosendorfer are mainly in that the CEO and President of Brodmann were both ex Bosie employees, Sales Director and UK Sales Manager respectively. And the company's based in Vienna.

From what I can see so far, this Brodmann certainly surpassed most budget pianos for quality at a low price. I would say that of the other Chinese pianos, the best from Perzina and Wendl & Lung are comparable. Bristol Piano Co inform me that the UK division is a delight to deal with, and the pianos arrive at the dealer well prepared out of the box. They certainly seem pleased enough to take on the brand in a big way.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: brodmann - 08/05/06 10:42 AM

In this thread you can read some comments by one of their folks:

http://www.armleg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1394&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&mforum=pianosinc
Posted by: Norbert

Re: brodmann - 08/05/06 11:57 AM

 Quote:
Full agraffe construction, high quality components and immaculate build considering the price was around half that of a discounted Yamaha U1, a very good buy indeed and even vaguely comparable, although the U1 is the better instrument.
In which way, *better*?

Norbert
Posted by: LucyHeeg

Re: brodmann - 08/05/06 07:17 PM

Thanks to all who responded to my inquiry of yesterday for an update on Brodmann performance. I am going to read and fully digest all that has been added. From my daughter's and my shopping today, we've narrowed to Brodmann 121 or a Yamaha U 1. Price difference is pretty big ($1,000+ higher for the Yamaha). At our final stop of the day we were introduced to very low end baby grand, which does hold intrigue. $4995 quoted price for a "house brand" piano made for this particular music store chain. Actually manufactured by Sejung in China, if I have that name right. Seems too good to be true on the price point. I am thinking that for that amount it couldn't be as good as billed. So I would be interested in hearing from you knowledgeble folks-- Are we better off sticking with the good quality uprights we've narrowed to above or is the low-end baby grand actually worth a look? Many thanks again for all the good information!
Posted by: Sir Lurksalot

Re: brodmann - 08/05/06 08:05 PM

Unless the appearance of a very small grand is extremely appealing to you, there is no new grand for $4995 that approaches the quality of a good upright.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: brodmann - 08/05/06 08:23 PM

I happen to know all the three pianos you are talking about.

Here's my own preference:

1] Brodmann
2] Yamaha
3] Sejung grand

Good luck in making your own choice.

Norbert \:\)
Posted by: morini

Re: brodmann - 08/06/06 03:24 AM

If you`re interested in piano history, this may be interesting for you. The Boesendorfer workshop in Vienna was founded in 1828. And Boesendorfer was a pupil of Joseph Brodmann. Brodmann gave the workshop to Boesendorfer.
Pictures of original Brodmann-pianos

Yours, Stefan
Posted by: Brick

Re: brodmann - 08/06/06 10:25 AM

Lucy,

In terms of parts and workmanship you are indeed comparing a higher quality upright to a lower quality grand. However the Sejungs I have worked on proved to be nice playing and nice sounding once they received all the prep they need. Not a high performance piano, but certainly adequate for players at less than a professional level.

Most dealers aren't going to do all the prep work needed to get them playing their best and many technicians don't know how to deal with this kind of work either. So be forewarned about that. OTOH the dealer will of course assure you that all needed prep work is done.

I personally have found them needing from 6 hours to 12 hours of prep.

Once they are prepped up, they may be a little more service-intensive in subsequent years than a higher quality piano because certain quality sacrifices are inevitably made to keep piano price low. Most people seem to have an ignorance-is-bliss approach and neglect to keep their piano in top shape (and a lot of technicians don't have the skills needed either), but for those who do keep everything adjusted perfectly, you are going to generally have more 'issues' with a lower quality piano.

There are certain advantages to the touch of a grand (at least when it is properly adjusted) in my opinion that few uprights can simulate. The actions operate on different principals. Also the sound of an upright is 'trapped in a box' or facing the wall, whereas grands have that nice 'open' tone.

So you have your pros and cons to the good upright versus the cheap grand. I don't think either decision is wrong, but hopefully you know more about it now.
Posted by: Colin Crawford

Re: brodmann - 08/07/06 06:46 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
 Quote:
Full agraffe construction, high quality components and immaculate build considering the price was around half that of a discounted Yamaha U1, a very good buy indeed and even vaguely comparable, although the U1 is the better instrument.
In which way?

Norbert [/b]
Hi Norbert!

Much as I was highly impressed by the Brodmann, and will now start to recommend it wholeheartedly to my clients looking for a 121 sized piano, I still feel that the (far more expensive) Japanese built U1 has the edge in build quality and ultimate sound. The best way I can describe this is that the U1 appears more 'controlled'. The Yamaha action is pretty much unbeatable at this price level. The amazing price of the Brodmann will however make a decent sized high quality upright affordable to many more people than ever before.

I also have yet to see more examples of Brodmanns to see whether consistency is as good as Yamaha. Are the Canadian/North American U1s all Japanese or are they US built? If your U1s are not Japanese built I'd have no way of judging how they compare.
Posted by: LucyHeeg

Re: brodmann - 08/07/06 07:56 AM

Wow! All the information here has been enormously helpful! Norbert, thanks for giving a ranking based on your hands-on experience with the 3 pianos I mentioned. Yours and others comments convinced me that in this decision tree, the better upright beats the lesser quality grand. But Brick, your point about the action on the grand vs. upright hits the nail on the head for where we are at this moment. When looking at how each piano works, the grand is so compelling. Then listening to my daughter, with some coaching from a very good piano salesperson, experiment on the grand with dynamics in a whole new way than ever before, I could see a tremendous amount of growth potential for her with a decent, though not professional grade, grand under her fingertips. I feel like I did a pretty good job researching the uprights and narrowing to the 2 alternatives and was ready to get a purchase done before school starts next month. But now that we are intrigued with the grand, I think I need to research that option a bit better before deciding. In other words, I am going to go back to square one for a little while so I can be more thorough about what options are available to us in the lower priced grand market. And now I'll go buy the Fine book, which I was going to try to get away without actually reading. All the good advice on this forum reminds me that this is the kind of purchase it is worth taking some time on! I will continue to read through the posts here and will log in with the results of our process in a month or two when we've hopefully made our purchase. Thanks again for all the help!
Posted by: Sir Lurksalot

Re: brodmann - 08/07/06 08:10 AM

 Quote:
I am going to go back to square one for a little while so I can be more thorough about what options are available to us in the lower priced grand market.
In the $5K range for a grand, a used one might be your best option. With a little luck and searching, you should be able to find something that's bigger and higher quality than a new one for the same price.
Posted by: ftp

Re: brodmann - 08/07/06 08:19 AM

What if the buyer was thinking about buying a more expensive grand piano in 3-5 years? Would this change the order of preference based on resale value?

I firmly believe that someone should only buy the piano they love in a given price range, but if it were a close call on preference would resale value tip the scales a different direction?
Posted by: Sir Lurksalot

Re: brodmann - 08/07/06 09:43 AM

Sure, resale considerations might cause you to comprimise a bit now if you know you'll be upgrading in a few years. Still, resale value for a used piano should be better since it's already depreciated.

BTW - I was only responding to the quoted comment, so I'm not talking about uprights.
Posted by: Palindrome

Re: brodmann - 08/07/06 10:34 AM

I have a colleague who's looking for a piano for her three children, and possibly for herself. She stopped in at Karnes (the local Yamaha dealer) and was offered as an alternative to Yamaha, a Brodmann 187 at $18,790. I told her I'd get the current Fine supplement and see what that had to say, and recommended that she visit other piano dealers in the area, get offers on their mid-quality Chinese brands to compare with and use as bargaining points toward the price she's been offered, possibly have her child's teacher evaluate the instrument, and certainly try to get at least 20% off that offering price (possibly more, depending on Fine's price scales). Oh, and lastly, not accept any instrument until all problems are fixed before buying. Any other comments?

I was a bit annoyed with the strong stress on the supposed Brodmann - Boesendorfer connection in their literature, but from what I'm reading above, it may be a reasonable piano at a somewhat lower price than was offered.

I also suggested she look at some used instruments (for instance, Cordogan's had a used Mason and Hamlin from the 1920s for $21K, I believe, last year) which I'd certainly strongly recommend she consider over the Brodmann if it were available only at the price offered.

Any comments?
Posted by: Cy Shuster, RPT

Re: brodmann - 08/07/06 12:17 PM

In that price range, I'd look at the Nordiska 215 as well (7').

Just FYI, sometimes a teacher is (understandably) reluctant to recommend a piano better than their own. It's a good idea to bring another pianist along.

--Cy--

(halfway to LA from Chicago on Route 66)
Posted by: Jolly

Re: brodmann - 08/07/06 12:19 PM

Comments?

Has the M&H had any work done to it? Or is it vintage?

Second comment...as good as the new Chinese may be, for the kind of money we are talking about, I'd be much more inclined to look at the Eastern European pianos.
Posted by: George K

Re: brodmann - 08/11/06 12:44 AM

Check this out. An evaluation of the Brodmann 187.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: brodmann - 08/11/06 12:15 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by George K:
Check this out. An evaluation of the Brodmann 187. [/b]
I noticed in your link a Chinese brand mentioned by Rick I'm not familiar with, that he also thinks is very good.

Things in China are changing rapidly...
Posted by: schwammerl

Re: brodmann - 08/11/06 01:32 PM

Hi Jolly

The brand Hailun which Rick mentions, is where Wendl & Lung is made. See links below:

http://www.hailunpiano.com/en/lishi.asp

http://www.wendl-lung.com/

Schwammerl
Posted by: Colin Crawford

Re: brodmann - 08/11/06 01:36 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:


Second comment...as good as the new Chinese may be, for the kind of money we are talking about, I'd be much more inclined to look at the Eastern European pianos. [/b]
Which ones pray tell?

The Hailun And Brodmann pianos that I've seen recently are far better built than most from Eastern Europe.
Posted by: George K

Re: brodmann - 08/11/06 02:02 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Colin Crawford:
The Hailun And Brodmann pianos that I've seen recently are far better built than most from Eastern Europe. [/b]
Which ones (out of Eastern Europe) do consider inferior to the Broadmanns and why?
Posted by: FogVilleLad

Re: brodmann - 08/11/06 02:06 PM

Hailun's site says that 80% of its production is exported. I think that that is the opposite of the Chinese piano idustry as a whole. The company's purchase of Japanese manufacturing equipment has me thinking that their standard of manufacturing can equal that of Japan.
Posted by: Colin Crawford

Re: brodmann - 08/11/06 02:10 PM

Hailun has a strong Western European link in Peter Veletzky, who uses the Hailun plant to make his Wendl & Lung range. I have a feeling that he has a family connection by marriage to this part of China, and was introduced to the Hailun factory by a relative. All W&L pianos are exported, none are marketed in China, so this could account for your figure.
Posted by: Colin Crawford

Re: brodmann - 08/11/06 02:22 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by George K:
]Which ones (out of Eastern Europe) do consider inferior to the Broadmanns and why? [/b]
Most of them, excepting those like Zimmermann (formerly East German) and others which have been adopted by German mainstream manufacturers, and systematically improved beyond their humble Communist-era designs.

From what I can see (and bear in mind that I live in Europe so get to see a lot of these every week) many Eastern European makers, and I'll name Förster and Petrof as examples, are content to fit a Renner action to an existing design of frame that was probably penned in the late '60s, smarten the cabinet up a bit and affix a higher price tag. It's simply not good enough to do this. The British piano industry did something similar and now it doesn't exist except to assemble Yamahas.

Some Eastern European makers seem content to rest on their laurels whilst the Chinese are breaking new ground.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: brodmann - 08/11/06 02:52 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Colin Crawford:
 Quote:
Originally posted by George K:
]Which ones (out of Eastern Europe) do consider inferior to the Broadmanns and why? [/b]
Most of them, excepting those like Zimmermann (formerly East German) and others which have been adopted by German mainstream manufacturers, and systematically improved beyond their humble Communist-era designs.

From what I can see (and bear in mind that I live in Europe so get to see a lot of these every week) many Eastern European makers, and I'll name Förster and Petrof as examples, are content to fit a Renner action to an existing design of frame that was probably penned in the late '60s, smarten the cabinet up a bit and affix a higher price tag. It's simply not good enough to do this. The British piano industry did something similar and now it doesn't exist except to assemble Yamahas.

Some Eastern European makers seem content to rest on their laurels whilst the Chinese are breaking new ground. [/b]
Sometimes new is not always better. Or not. I wonder whether one would rather have a M&H from the early 1900s, or one from today...or the same could be mused about Steinway.

I'd take a good Knight vertical over any Chinese vertical I've ever played...now, I haven't laid eyes on a W-L, or a Broadman, so on that level I'm ignorant.

But back to grands...you'd take the Chinese over an A-F, a Petrof, or Bohemia?
Posted by: Colin Crawford

Re: brodmann - 08/11/06 03:16 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:


I'd take a good Knight vertical over any Chinese vertical I've ever played...now, I haven't laid eyes on a W-L, or a Broadman, so on that level I'm ignorant.

But back to grands...you'd take the Chinese over an A-F, a Petrof, or Bohemia? [/b]
At the same price point, yes. No question.

I'm not sure how they're priced in the US, but here on average, an average Chinese piano is about 35-50% cheaper than Eastern European. I don't have grand price lists handy, but taking a decent sized upright (Yamaha U1-ish size) the W&L 122, Yamaha Pearl River 125Mi and Brodmann 121 sell for around £2,500. That price would only buy you a 110cm Petrof with a Detoa action. You'd be paying about £5k for a Renner actioned Petrof 125F1. The 125cm Petrof is indeed a better piano, but not in the same price bracket.

I'd agree that a good example of a Knight takes some beating, but there are many poor ones around too.
Posted by: George K

Re: brodmann - 08/11/06 03:35 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Colin Crawford:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:


But back to grands...you'd take the Chinese over an A-F, a Petrof, or Bohemia? [/b]
At the same price point, yes. No question.
[/b]
That is an amazing statement - and I'm not saying that I disagree, being too ignorant except to ask questions.

However, you made the statement "at the same price point."
Fine's 2006-2007 supplement says this as to prices.
The cheapest A-F grand (the 170) is $44.219
The cheapest Bohemia (the 150) is $19,800
The cheapest Petrof (the VI) is $21,900

The cheapest Brodman (the 150) is $14,430
the 187 is $17,160

So, at the price point there is no comparison to the August -Forster, the Bohemia comes close, but is still pricier.

Now, how would you rate them at the same size point? Is the Brodmann comparable to the A-F 190 (which lists for three times the price), or the Bohemia 185 which is $10K more?

Believe me, I'm not trying to be snarky, but I am genuinely curious (and I plan on checking the Brodmanns out soon), but I don't see how it's possible to compare "at the price point" for there are no similarly priced European pianos.

Thanks!
Posted by: Colin Crawford

Re: brodmann - 08/11/06 03:48 PM

I had no grand price lists to hand, which is why I gave an upright for price comparison.
Posted by: George K

Re: brodmann - 08/11/06 03:53 PM

Thanks for your thoughts, Colin. Understandably, when speaking of uprights, the price differences become much, much smaller. Having said that, how would you compare the grands that I mentioned as compared to the Brodmann?
Posted by: Colin Crawford

Re: brodmann - 08/11/06 04:25 PM

I'll let you know as soon as I see a Brodmann grand!

I've only seen three Brodmann uprights so far, two 121s and a 125. All were excellent, consistent in quality and particularly good value, so I'm going on first impressions here!.

Of the recent Petrof/Weinbach grands I've experienced, consistency was very variable indeed, even down to casting quality and shade of paint on the frame on pianos with close serial numbers.

I've never seen a Bohemia, but I've worked on several of the sister piano, the Rieger Kloss. Quality of all of the aforementioned relies totally on dealer preparation; since they are so variable from the factory, comparison is difficult. Every single Rieger Kloss that I know of has needed a fair amount of action recentring before it has proved saleable, and the Petrofs have been only marginally better. Admittedly, once all this heavy preparation had been done, they have all settled down to be pleasant instruments, but I can imagine that in the hands of indifferent dealerships they could be nightmarish. I cannot imagine however, that all of this faffing about will be required with a Brodmann.

I can't comment on recent Förster grands.
Posted by: mikhailoh

Re: brodmann - 08/12/06 11:41 AM

I played a Petrof III with the Mag Assist action.. did not like it one little bit. The tone was Ok.. not great but OK. The action was horrendous, stiff and clumsy and very difficult to play with any grace at all.
Posted by: Brick

Re: brodmann - 08/12/06 12:58 PM

Michael,

There had to be something drastically "off" there. The ones I've dealt with were creamy and light to play. Stiff and clumsy would be the last descriptives I would use. Perhaps an explanation could be gotten by emailing Joe Swenson or John Elliott at Geneva International.
Posted by: mikhailoh

Re: brodmann - 08/12/06 01:05 PM

Brick,

(Love your screen name, BTW.. 'He's a Brick... House.. he's might mighty")

It was the worst Petrof action I've seen, and that even includes one or two 10 or 15 year old ones. I think it had to be a case of adjustment. I've played some lovely Petrofs.
Posted by: Cy Shuster, RPT

Re: brodmann - 08/12/06 03:15 PM

The Petrof magnetic action has a different feel. Some people might take longer to adjust to it than others.

I found it very pleasant and light, especially the sensation of the keys staying in contact with my fingers after release.

--Cy--
Posted by: George K

Re: brodmann - 08/20/06 12:35 PM

Read my impressions of a couple of Brodmanns here. Take it for what it's worth, I'm no pro, just an interested consumer.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: brodmann - 08/20/06 09:43 PM

George:

I happen to agree with your assessment and observations.

For all still not seeing the light:
[or *hearing the sound*...]

The race is on.

"China has arrived".

Rest of the world: "better take note"....

Norbert \:o
Posted by: Upscale Piano Lessons

Re: brodmann - 02/22/09 03:46 PM

I played one yesterday and I was very impressed! This Chinese made piano is a manufacturing project that was dumped by Bosendorfer. It was taken over by some Bose execs who left the company. It's basically a reverse engineered Steinway and it plays and sounds like one too. Here's the kicker: The price is actually affordable!
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: brodmann - 02/22/09 04:01 PM

Paul, Nice first post.

What is a reverse engineered Steinway.

Why would ex Bose guys make a piano that sounds and plays like a Steinway
Posted by: turandot

Re: brodmann - 02/22/09 04:21 PM

 Quote:
Why would ex Bose guys make a piano that sounds and plays like a Steinway
Maybe the project was designed to take a bite out of someone else' apple instead of one's own.

Too much success in approaching the level of the high-priced original with the low-priced clone would create problems. Why not create problems for someone else? \:D
Posted by: Diaphragmatic

Re: brodmann - 02/22/09 06:32 PM

I am assuming eveyone is aware this thread was started nearly 3 years ago..
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: brodmann - 02/22/09 06:56 PM

Yep, I saw that.
It's one reason I mention "nice first post" :rolleyes:
Posted by: Norbert

Re: brodmann - 02/22/09 10:05 PM

Oh I love those discussions about 'brands'.. \:D

Unfortunatley it takes a bit more knowledge about the various models a maker offers to get "the gist of things"

I've said this here so many times, it's becoming a broken record...

Anybody ever playing a 42 Yamaha E 108 walking away thinking it's a great brand?

Perhaps try the 48" Brodmann 121 and especially the 49" 123 C and M to get a better idea.

http://www.brodmann-pianos.com/upright_piano_123c0.html

Latter just being chosen by a local performance venue out of about 15 others as their "piano of choice" for visiting or hired entertainers.

And it's only an upright...

Norbert \:o
Posted by: JeffBC

Re: brodmann - 02/22/09 10:23 PM

Paul (Upscale Piano Lessons) played a PE187 - I know I was there with him.

Of course he also played a few Steinways, Blunthners, Bosendorfers, Estonias, Mason & Hamlins, Steingraebers, a Yamaha, and at least one August Forster. The Brodmann was in good company ;-)
Posted by: Norbert

Re: brodmann - 02/23/09 12:33 AM

 Quote:
Why would ex Bose guys make a piano that sounds and plays like a Steinway
Because Brodmann was originally planned as a second line to Boesendorfer....

Norbert
Posted by: David-G

Re: brodmann - 02/23/09 03:04 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
Because Brodmann was originally planned as a second line to Boesendorfer....

Norbert [/b]
I have been wondering - if the Brodmann line had come to fruition as a second line to Boesendorfer, what (with the benefit of hindsight) would have been the effect on Boesendorfer's finances?
Posted by: BoseEric

Re: brodmann - 02/23/09 10:09 AM

 Quote:
Brodmann was a project started by Boesendorfer years ago before they had to eventually abondon it, this apparently due to financial difficulties.
The project never got beyond a very early stage due to marketing issues, not financial difficulties.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: brodmann - 02/23/09 11:17 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
I've said this here so many times, it's becoming a broken record...
[/b]
Agree.
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: brodmann - 02/23/09 12:17 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by BoseEric:
 Quote:
Brodmann was a project started by Boesendorfer years ago before they had to eventually abondon it, this apparently due to financial difficulties.
The project never got beyond a very early stage due to marketing issues, not financial difficulties. [/b]
Did it get farther than a thought? Were there any pianos designed, tested and approved?

My understanding is the product line is owned by a pianos dealer, Parsons in China. What connection did Parsons have with Bosendorfer?
Posted by: turandot

Re: brodmann - 02/23/09 01:33 PM

Rod,

Your posts about pianos from China are so so obvious, not that transparency is necessarily a bad thing.
Posted by: FogVilleLad

Re: brodmann - 02/23/09 01:47 PM

In an earlier thread someone posted that Bosie ahd built prototypes. I don't recall if the poster said anything about what the execs took with them. In a more recent thread the 187's scale was said to be a copy of the Steinway A. In that thread Del posted that it was of an A2.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: brodmann - 02/23/09 03:45 PM

For most pianists, piano players or music lovers, getting the right piano for themselves is a simple matter of musical/personal compatibility.

Compatibility can happen with any piano reagardless of its name or background or *who* designed it, *why* and for which specific purpose.

A player's choice doesn't need justification or *reason* and no piano shopper is accountable to anyone else but him/herself.[well, perhaps a wife or husband... ;\) ]

In this context every piano out there is making a contribution, if only for purposes of comparison or giving a different point of reference for shoppers.

On Saturday I received a very nice letter by someone who had opted for a different piano in the end but very much appreciated the experience she had trying out our Brodmann grands.

In my world, this is the stuff that makes it worth being in this business, as opposed to try selling each and everybody the piano one happens to carry, find justification for its existence and/or pretending to have the *right* answers for everybody at all times.

Norbert \:\)
Posted by: Mocheol

Re: brodmann - 02/23/09 06:58 PM

Hm.
Seems I,m not the only one to laud Brodmanns virtues
[This thread now going 3 years!}
Posted by: carey

Re: brodmann - 02/24/09 12:30 AM

Well not really - let's say it was "resurrected" after three years. There have been several threads written during that time that have provided much more information about Brodmann pianos than can be found here. And yes - I happen to think Brodmanns are a smoking deal given what they sell for compared to other brands. HOWEVER - from a quality standpoint they are comparable to Yamaha, Kawai, Boston (Japanese) and Young Chang (Korean) - all GOOD consumer grade instruments. They are not Tier One or Two instruments. For the average player they are just fine. For heavier use, perhaps not.
Posted by: Upscale Piano Lessons

Re: brodmann - 03/01/09 12:39 AM

Hi Rod,

Thanks for the welcome!

Reverse engineering is when a company dissects a competitor's product in order to figure out what it's made of and how it works. Then, copies are manufactured that may or may not violate existing patents. (A notable example in music electronics is Behringer vs Mackie.)

Now, being that I have no inside or direct contact with anyone from Bosendorfer or Broadmann, this info is all from the grapevine and should be confirmed from sources other than myself. The story I heard was that Bosendorfer had started this project but abandoned it due to financial issues. The Bose execs who were supposed to run the project, went out and started it up on their own.

I would guess that the original Bosendorfer plan to copy a Steinway and sell it at $15k made a lot of sense from a competitive standpoint.

Have you had a chance to take a look or play the Broadmann yet? It has very little history so there's no proof as to how it will hold-up over time, but I was very impressed with it in every regard.

Paul

www.upscalepianolessons.com
Posted by: Upscale Piano Lessons

Re: brodmann - 03/01/09 05:11 PM

Ouch! shocked
Posted by: Upscale Piano Lessons

Re: brodmann - 03/01/09 06:18 PM

Hi Rod, Hi Jonathon,

Playing a Brodmann and posting on Pianoworld are both new to me. I will read the rules again to see if there's a time limit on responding to a thread. If I've made an error, my bad, I apologize to you and the community.

With that said, I think that you might consider a world where neophytes are welcomed and not unduly criticized or ridiculed for not being totally up to speed.

I thought this was going to be a nice, friendly place to talk about pianos... oops... STUPID ME!

Jonathon,

I noticed that Brodmann is not included in your product line: Could this be the reason for that three-year-old pebble in your shoe?

smirk
Posted by: ChrisVenables

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 05:26 AM

Hi

Brodmann seem to be receiving some good reviews.

Would any Brodmann dealers or Brodmann owners like to comment on their experiences when comparing Brodmann and, say, Yamaha in terms of reliability, tuning stability and quality of action/touch response? (I appreciate there is a considerable price difference) Also, from a dealer's viewpoint, are there any problems with continuity of supply?

Many thanks in advance for your time.
Posted by: schwammerl

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 01:25 PM

Chris,

Welcome on board as a European piano dealer. smile

There aren't all that many around here!

schwammerl.
Posted by: schwammerl

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 01:34 PM

Quote:
I appreciate there is a considerable price difference


Officially there should not be all that much difference anymore with e.g. Yamaha in Europe if dealers would apply Brodmann's RRPs, e.g.:

http://www.brodmann-pianos.com/grand_piano_1870.html?&L=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.molod.net.ru%2Fforum%2Ftemplates%2FsubSilver%2Fimages%2Fesoxod%2Friwezin%2F

However price are a bit all around in Europe. Dealers like e.g. Precision Pianos in the Irish Republic or Besbrode, Leeds are in fact quoting prices based on RRPs of end of 2006! Not so however in e.g. France, Germany.

schwammerl.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 02:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
Brodman is just another of the many European-Chinese ventures which will introduce astoundingly new high quality pianos now coming on market.

Brodmann was a project started by Boesendorfer years ago before they had to eventually abondon it, this apparently due to financial difficulties.

The new Brodmann pianos and grands are really beautifully sounding pianos, each identically equipped with genuine German Strunz soundboards, German Helmut Abel hammers, the English made Langer action and, of course the obligatory high end German Roslau strings.

Judging by its tone, touch, design, manufactured components and execution of built and construction - Brodmann, from our experience and in our opinion, is a piano nearing almost now already the very edge of quality before reaching true high end.

Several piano dealers in the U.S. have confided to me that this is one of the most *worrisome* pianos coming up as a new competitior, especially in their own neighbourhood....

Due to their long affiliation with other, perhaps more established makes, it has often prevented them from 'making the move' adopting the line.

Gladly, we did not face the same kind of problem and have made our choice accordingly.

Norbert thumb


Is this a post or an advertisement??
Posted by: Norbert

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 02:27 PM

Quote:
Is this a post or advertisement?


Why not ask some *customers* of this piano including some other knowlegeable minds?

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...ite_id/1#import

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea....html#Post60566

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...ite_id/1#import

Brodmann grands were the only ones out 47 others to jump a whole category up into a new tier.

Even Larry Fine must have been out of his mind to allow this happening...

http://www.pianobook.com/supplement.html

Now, nobody here is forced to buy or even consider Brodmann.

On the other hand, as soon as somebody is becoming recognized as a serious competitor on the market he's being shot down by those perhaps feel most threatened by its sucess and emergence..

Luckily, none of those involve our or anybody else's customer's for this brand.

Norbert
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 02:57 PM

The fact that Brodmann makes a decent piano doesn't justify one's running an advertising campaign for it. smirk

Posted by: Norbert

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 03:11 PM

Steve:

As the previous "Mr.Pramberger" par excellence you were so eager in advertising that brand here on the board that it even embarassed us dealers.

Praise by customers or consumers however, fall into a slightly different category.

For those of course, who understand the *difference*....

Norbert

Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 03:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
The fact that Brodmann makes a decent piano doesn't justify one's running an advertising campaign for it. smirk



Exactly.

Norbert refuses to abide by the forum rules because he thinks he can probably get away with it. I've told him countless times that my objections have nothing to do with the particular piano he's giving his latest infomercial about or whether I think his statements are true.

Even if there was new piano ten times better than Boesendorfer and it cost $100 including a leather artist bench, 10 free tunings, Stanwoodized action, solid gold name plate, and lessons from Horowitz it is not appropriate for a dealer of that piano to endlessly self promote it here.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 03:32 PM

Complete nonsense.

Actual customer reports about a brand like Brodmann and factual upgradings by Larry Fine are bits of information anybody can bring to the plate - in fact he/she *should*.

These are hard earned things in business and being largely customer/fact based - as are the links in my above post - are the most of all credible information available to consumers today.

You, Steve Cohen or anybody else, is very welcome to demonstrate the success of those brand you have either chosen for yourself or favourite of.

This threat, however, is about Brodmann and as a long time dealer for Brodmann I am entitled to make those remarks which are either based on our own experience or that by our customers.

The reason you and some others here keep fighting anything good being said about this make, is simply that you know the information is actually *correct* and has some kind of real or potential effect on your own [or your friends..] position within the market.

My advice: Choose those brands with highest potential and promise early in the game, otherwise your competition will.

Chances are, it already has....

Norbert
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 04:06 PM

Here are the forum rules you ignore.

"If you consider yourself to be a professional, please act like one! If you just can't resist promoting yourself or your business, or you think bashing your competitors and/or their products is the way to do business...


Stop the Self-Promotion![/b]
It is NOT ACCEPTABLE[/b] for you to create posts thinly disguised as an innocent discussion when in fact they are nothing more than a promotion for your business.

Nor should you be directing your customers here for the sole purpose of touting how wonderful you are.


Some Guidelines:[/b]

Not Necessarily Self Promotion...[/b]
If a dealer OCCASIONALLY posts news about what is going on in their business, it's not self-promotion.
If a private individual is enthusiastic about a brand and talks about it a lot, it's not self-promotion.

Now for what we do consider self-promotion:[/b]

If you're in the business and you continually create posts to talk about your business, you're self-promoting."
----------------------------------------------------------------

It's laughable to think my posts have anything to do with Brodmann. What would I have to gain? Of course if I was in the piano business as you once claimed....I almost fell off the piano bench when read that one.

As a NON DEALER I can talk as much as I want about my opinions about Piano X. When a dealer does it, even if he's saying customer Y said such and such, it's called self promotion.

Do you think when Steinway says pianist X says all these great things about Steinway, it's not self promotion?
Posted by: birchy

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 04:47 PM

pianoloverus, your signal to noise ratio isn't particularly good.

Let people talk about pianos, whether they sell them or not. If someone puts out an untruth, the knowledgable core group here will have the grill warmed up quickly. If someone is out of line, moderators will take care of it. If you don't like the moderators' sensibilities, then you have some decisions to make.

My sense is that reasonable members find your continual hectoring of others embarassing, and a real detriment to the environment here.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 04:52 PM

I challenge anyone to click on my name is any of my posts and then click on my post history. Read as many as you wish. they are all there.

Then do the same for Norbert.

You will find that the majority of Norbert's posts promote him and the brands he carries. While I certainly express my opinions I show no such bias.

Norbert, you consistant push the envelope. Soon, it will burst.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 05:42 PM

birchy:
I sent you a PM but don't know if it ever arrived. It should answer your concerns.

I notice you and Norbert are both from Vancouver and you own a Steigerman. Are you perhaps one of his customers?
Posted by: birchy

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 05:45 PM

I didn't get a message.

After a long search I did buy a piano from Norbert. It has worked out well.

Have you met him?
Posted by: schwammerl

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 06:11 PM

From birchy:

Quote:
Let people talk about pianos, whether they sell them or not.


birchy, I am with you here.

When dealers are talking about their brands I find it more interesting than threads like these:

Quote:
Do you try and let gases out before a long recital


thumb

schwammerl.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 06:36 PM

[quote=birchy]I didn't get a message.
[/quote

I tried PM you twice and the message didn't go through. Your profile seems to indicate you do accept private messages. If you want to PM me with a test email maybe I can "reply".
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: schwammerl
From birchy:


When dealers are talking about their brands I find it more interesting than threads like these:

Quote:
Do you try and let gases out before a long recital


thumb



Well, that's not exactly high praise. Where would you rate the infomercials with respect to the "Washing Hands after Playing the Piano" thread?
Posted by: Diaphragmatic

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 08:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Upscale Piano Lessons
Hi Rod, Hi Jonathon,

Playing a Brodmann and posting on Pianoworld are both new to me. I will read the rules again to see if there's a time limit on responding to a thread. If I've made an error, my bad, I apologize to you and the community.

With that said, I think that you might consider a world where neophytes are welcomed and not unduly criticized or ridiculed for not being totally up to speed.

I thought this was going to be a nice, friendly place to talk about pianos... oops... STUPID ME!

Jonathon,

I noticed that Brodmann is not included in your product line: Could this be the reason for that three-year-old pebble in your shoe?

smirk



I'm Sorry this is a somewhat dated response but I just noticed this post and felt compelled to respond.

Upscale Piano Lessons,

I'm not sure what you are talking about..

I have no problem with Boradmann piano's. Actually, I have heard and said good things about them (please check my previous posts).

..and If you feel you were "unduly criticized or ridiculed" by me simply stating this thread was started 3 years ago then I'm not really sure what to say..

For whatever its worth, I hope you don't pass judgement on this site so quickly..
Posted by: Norbert

Re: brodmann - 03/05/09 09:46 PM

To bring in some fresh air.....

Perhaps it would be nice to hear from some others here about the pianos they carry and are proud of.

Of particular interest would be those that are relatively new on the market, are creating considerable consumer buzz in a short period of time, offering a line at least up to semi-concert grands and are being consecutively upgraded by Larry Fine in his Annual Supplements.

Wondering if Steve Cohen's grey-market pianos would perhaps make for a good candidate....

Norbert
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: brodmann - 03/06/09 01:31 PM

Deflecting the issue of your blatent adverting of Brodmann by attackng me is a tactic worthy of Terry Wilson.

Also, inviting other dealers to promote their lines in violation of forum rules is a poor way to try to justify your transgressions.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: brodmann - 03/06/09 01:57 PM

Steve:

Why go back to Brodmann, the line you apparently once wanted but couldn't get?

In fact as a "industry consultant for Bechstein" I always wondered why you don't even carry Bechstein in your store.

It is very unfortunate that instead of making some valid contributions here you simply see the need to insult those owners of pianos who have seen fit to write about their shopping experience here.

You claim I'm hyping things, yet completely ignore that much of it it customer based stuff.

Including some of our areas most respected teachers, students, pianists and churches.

Too bad that things like that create envy and strife in the industry for those who may feel endangered or even threatened by the competitive edge happy customers can create in the market.

For most it's good stuff to read about - it's based on real life experience, the stuff Larry Fine is often basing his evaluations on.

Rest assured, always happy to read some of your own.

Congratulations in advance!

Norbert

Posted by: Jeff Bauer

Re: brodmann - 03/06/09 03:07 PM

*cake*
Posted by: ChrisVenables

Re: brodmann - 03/08/09 09:12 PM

Hi again and I thank you for your replies so far. However, those replies do digress to some degree from my original points: so may I refer you to my actual questions:

Would any Brodmann dealers or Brodmann owners like to comment on their experiences when comparing Brodmann and, say, Yamaha, in terms of reliability, tuning stability and quality of action/touch response? (I appreciate there is a considerable price difference) Also, from a dealer's viewpoint, are there any problems with continuity of supply?

Any opinions, positive or negative, on these manufacturers' and their models would be very much appreciated.

Likewise, if I can be of any help in supplying feedback from UK customers regarding new Yamaha and Steinway pianos, I would be delighted to help.
Posted by: djtoast

Re: brodmann - 03/09/09 01:07 AM

Originally Posted By: ChrisVenables

Would any Brodmann dealers or Brodmann owners like to comment on their experiences when comparing Brodmann and, say, Yamaha, in terms of reliability, tuning stability and quality of action/touch response?


I've had my BU 125 (Now called a PE 125 I believe) for about 13 months and it's behaving very well; still sounding gorgeous and has stayed in tune very well - better than I expected for a brand new piano settling into a new home. A slight "click" developed when depressing the sustain peddle (it was VERY quiet, only audible when playing pp and WITH the practice pedal) and went away again a week later.

I don't have much to compare it to, but since I'd rate my experience with the piano as just about flawless, I can't imagine another brand of piano could have pleased me more. Which isn't to say I don't believe there are better pianos - but for someone at my level of proficiency (moderate, shall we say!) , with my budget, it seems to have worked out well. The piano I can most easily compare it to is my teacher's, which is a Boston grand, and of course it has a fuller sound and a touch capable of more subtlety, but it was I guess between four and five times the price.

The reason I picked the Brodmann over the other pianos on my shortlist (a Bechstein, a Danemann, and a U3, all about the same price) was mostly the peace of mind I associated with owning something brand new. Tuners and technicians seemed to be responding well to the brand, and I found myself thinking "the Bechstein sounds great, but how much longer will a 90 year old pin-block last?" ; "the U3 has a great action but how much life is left in the strings?" etc...

A year and a bit down the line and I've learned quite a bit more about pianos, but I'm deliriously happy with my choice still, though I do eye up the 187cm grand whenever I pass my dealer's place!
Posted by: juststeve

Re: brodmann - 05/18/09 07:36 PM

I know your posting was quite a while ago but I'm curious what did you end up buying and are you happy? I'm in the market for that similiarly elusive 10-15,000 under 6ft grand and have been considering Broadmann. So I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

thank you. steve
Posted by: djtoast

Re: brodmann - 05/18/09 08:56 PM

the person who started this thread last posted three years ago so may not be back to respond...

there's a more recent thread here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1164681/1.html

which digresses in the middle but is more recent and involves someone choosing between a brodmann 187, a kawai RX2 and a boston 178 - might be worth a look.