Kawai K3 price

Posted by: AuroraG

Kawai K3 price - 12/05/11 10:43 AM

Hi,
I am new to the forum. I am shopping for a new piano for my kids to start lessons. My top choice is Kawai K3. I was quoted an initial price of $6400. I checked Piano Book's online pricing guide. This is roughly 20% discount from the MSP. There seems to be room for negotion. So, what is a good price for K3 nowadays? Is 30% off MSP ($5700) a starting point for negotion or can I go lower?

Also, how does re-sale value look for K3?
Thanks.
Posted by: Plowboy

Re: Kawai K3 price - 12/05/11 11:15 AM

Hi AuroraG, welcome to the forum.

30% off is not an unreasonable place to start negotiating. This may or may not fly with the dealer. It can't hurt to to make the offer though.

Negotiating a price is an unfortunate aspect of buying a piano. However, that's the way it is. Maybe the ongoing implosion of the piano market will force some positive changes on a hidebound industry.

Have you looked at a K-5? A much better piano for just a bit more money, IMHO.
Posted by: Kurtmen

Re: Kawai K3 price - 12/05/11 01:35 PM

Hi I'm a Kawai Piano Dealer in San Jose CA. I'm not familiar with the dynamics of the piano-market in your region hard to say if the price is great for your area or just good. Prices fluctuate based on many local factors such as cost of living; which affects the rates for moving, tuning and overall overhead of the business.
Competition among dealers it is also a factor.
However prices on a 48" upright will have small variations in the hundreds and not in the thousands therfore would not be worth exploring a market outside your area.
In general basis a discount of 20% off SMP is good, 30% is generous.
Keep it simple and enjoy your piano.
Posted by: AuroraG

Re: Kawai K3 price - 12/05/11 02:41 PM

Gary and Kurtmen, thanks for the quick response. This dealer is out of state, thus no sales tax. I'll visit a local dealer as well and see how it goes. Thanks for the recommendation. I really don't like negotiations. But at least it helps to be prepared.

I have looked at K5. It's beyond my budget now. In fact even K3 was more than my initial budget. My initial budget was in the 4000s. So, Yamaha T118 was within range. I have also seen really good reviews of Perzina GP122. I have not seen it yet. I will check it out before making the final decision. But, if I can get K3 at a great price, that would be the one.

Thanks.
Posted by: Oaktoner

Re: Kawai K3 price - 03/28/12 11:12 AM

Hello,
I just joined the forum, and also buying a K3. Has anyone made the purchase recently? Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Oaktoner
Posted by: Kurtmen

Re: Kawai K3 price - 03/28/12 09:39 PM

Piano Buyer new edition is available online.
There, you'll find some realistic guidelines for pricing.
Regards,
Posted by: monads

Re: Kawai K3 price - 03/29/12 01:53 AM

Based on the new structure, $5700 appears reasonable.

In fact I'd put the range of fair negotiating between $5400-$5900. Keep in mind low and high end values in my range all depend on dealers and their OH costs.

Good luck!
Posted by: dealfinder

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/04/12 08:31 PM

So last week I bought our K3, ebony, new, delivered, with bench, with complimentary in home tuning, including tax. for a grand total of $5000.

California
Posted by: Gomer

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/04/12 08:54 PM

Originally Posted By: dealfinder
So last week I bought our K3, ebony, new, delivered, with bench, with complimentary in home tuning, including tax. for a grand total of $5000.

California


Potential "fake" price manipulating dealer, one post wonder?
Posted by: Plowboy

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/04/12 09:01 PM

Congratulations, dealfinder. That's a nice piano, I hope you enjoy it!
Posted by: Rafterman

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/04/12 10:52 PM

Well less than 60 days ago you could get a Kawai K3 for $4500 delivered with a free tuning in the NY tri-state area.

CA always seems to get slightly better deals. What seems suspect about that?

A few of us recently got Kawai K8s for $8000 to $8500 not even including the $300 rebate.
Posted by: monads

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/05/12 02:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Rafterman
A few of us recently got Kawai K8s for $8000 to $8500 not even including the $300 rebate.


Should probably clarify as that's without tax wink

2nd prices have changed since the new price guide became available. I'm on Par with Gomer's comment.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/05/12 11:24 AM

Speaking officially for Larry Fine:

Please keep in mind that the suggested range of 10% - 30% off the SMP is NOT a range of or for negotiation. It is a range to allow for the differing costs to dealers in different markets.

PLEASE READ the introduction to his pricing at http://www.pianobuyer.com/spring12/203.html.

One of Larry's major misgivings is the misuse of his pricing guidelines, dominantly by those who do not understand the major differences in costs to different dealers and in differing situations. Shoppers, and some regulars here, too often suggest that a price higher than 30% off SMP leaves room for negotiation. Assuming that a price of say 15% off SMP is higher than it ought to be, is in fact, unfair to a dealer with higher overhead.

He and I have, on many occasions discussed eliminating pricing altogether. The reason he hasn't done so it that it is likely the single most sought piece of information that shoppers look for.

I would hope that the regulars here on the Piano Forum would help educate shoppers on the right perspective to take when considering the MSRP, SMP and "street prices".
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/05/12 12:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Speaking officially for Larry Fine:

Please keep in mind that the suggested range of 10% - 30% off the SMP is NOT a range of or for negotiation. It is a range to allow for the differing costs to dealers in different markets.

Thanks for clarifying this very important point. Although what you say does IMO follow logically from all the rest of the explanation about SMP and varying dealer wholesale prices given in the Piano Buyer, I must admit that I didn't fully understand this. Perhaps adding these sentences to the next edition would be helpful.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/05/12 02:09 PM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Speaking officially for Larry Fine:

Please keep in mind that the suggested range of 10% - 30% off the SMP is NOT a range of or for negotiation. It is a range to allow for the differing costs to dealers in different markets.

Thanks for clarifying this very important point. Although what you say does IMO follow logically from all the rest of the explanation about SMP and varying dealer wholesale prices given in the Piano Buyer, I must admit that I didn't fully understand this. Perhaps adding these sentences to the next edition would be helpful.


Good point.

I spoke to Larry and we will add it to the next edition.
Posted by: Scott McBain

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/06/12 04:37 PM

Kawai K-3 pianos, I sell them for $2,500. but the keys and legs are extra. Bench is extra and delivery can range from $50. to $1500.

Do you want or need to talk to a sales consultant and will you tip the mover? Some dealers tune the pianos more than once, is that important? When you buy you might want some service, is that improtant?

Good sales people are very expensive, but do not make nearly as much nor do they have any of the fringe benefits as a policeman or fireman, or a politician or any government employee.

If I sell a K-3 for $5000. OTD the sales person might make about $150.00

You allow Macy's to charge you 700% when you buy a shirt and you allow Starbucks to make 800% when you buy the flavored water.

Auto Dealers have prices fixed so that they can make a margin that will allow them to stay in business.

These post about prices are just unfair to our business and the people in the business should join in on this one.

Teacher and techs often will ask for commissions for sending over a customer (something we do not do at our store but I know it happens all the time) how many piano salespeople ask a teacher or tech. for a kickback for a recommendation.

Sorry to get on the soapbox, but just need to air a few gripes.
Posted by: Sneakers

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/08/12 09:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Scott McBain

You allow Macy's to charge you 700% when you buy a shirt and you allow Starbucks to make 800% when you buy the flavored water.

Macy's operating margin is 9% and Starbucks is 13%.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=M+Key+Statistics
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=SBUX+Key+Statistics

Quote:
These post about prices are just unfair to our business and the people in the business should join in on this one.

I think you knowing how much you paid wholesale and me having no idea is unfair.
Posted by: Plowboy

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/08/12 11:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Scott McBain
...
Auto Dealers have prices fixed so that they can make a margin that will allow them to stay in business.

These post about prices are just unfair to our business and the people in the business should join in on this one.
...


Scott, IMHO, the industry needs to look at themselves. They created this pricing mess.
Posted by: Jonathan Alford

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/09/12 06:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Plowboy
Originally Posted By: Scott McBain
...
Auto Dealers have prices fixed so that they can make a margin that will allow them to stay in business.

These post about prices are just unfair to our business and the people in the business should join in on this one.
...


Scott, IMHO, the industry needs to look at themselves. They created this pricing mess.


The auto industry is worse for the dealers. You complain about the pricing threads. How would you like to have the invoice where you purchase your pianos wholesale posted on the web, easily found for all to see?

Jonathan
Posted by: Daniel1402

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/09/12 08:06 AM

To me it does not make any sense that a piano is more difficult to shop around than a car!

I bought a wooden shed last summer and paid $3,500. There was no negatiation and the price was posted as "take it or leave it". All other shed suppliers in my area had the same policy.

I requested a price by e-mail on a Kawai K3 just to "test the water" and I received $10,000 (in Ontario Canada). Upon visiting the store a month later, I got $7000 (plus 13% tax) without any negotiation. However, I doubt I can get the price down to $5000 tax included! (Another example where pricing is higher in Canada because of lower sales volume).

I just wish piano prices were posted "as is", with an MSRP that makes sense. This way people like me could concentrate on features, touch and tone when shopping around...

My two cents.

Daniel
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/09/12 09:31 AM

This topic has been discusses many times. In the FAQ is this thread which may help in understanding the complexities in pricing issues.
The Taboo Subject of Piano Pricing.

One further point: What is the actual wholesale cost of a washing machine, a tractor, a high-end wristwatch, a high-end camera, or for that matter any consumer product. Do you really think the "invoice" price on a car reflects the actual price paid by a car dealers?
Posted by: Daniel1402

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/09/12 09:38 AM

Thanks, I will have a look at the FAQ. I like the title "...taboo...".

Daniel
Posted by: Jonathan Alford

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/09/12 10:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen


One further point: What is the actual wholesale cost of a washing machine, a tractor, a high-end wristwatch, a high-end camera, or for that matter any consumer product. Do you really think the "invoice" price on a car reflects the actual price paid by a car dealers?


I agree that it is not anyone's "right" to know what the wholesale price of a good is. If known, many consumers would (and do) misuse the information to try to get an unrealistic price.

Yes, the invoice price is what a car dealer pays. 20 years in the business has taught me that.

Jonathan
Posted by: monads

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/10/12 01:07 AM

With a little research, and patience, one can figure out a reasonable price range for negotiation. If a buyer has done their homework, is fair/reasonable, it's simply a matter of visiting dealers and negotiating.

It's the buyer who lowballs and want's dealer cost for a product that upsets the market. That practice is not "fair/reasonable". Most consumers are not Cost Engineers, they have no idea of 'overhead' costs or what it takes to be a sustainable business or hidden dealer service costs associated with a product.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/10/12 10:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Jonathan Alford
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen


One further point: What is the actual wholesale cost of a washing machine, a tractor, a high-end wristwatch, a high-end camera, or for that matter any consumer product. Do you really think the "invoice" price on a car reflects the actual price paid by a car dealers?


I agree that it is not anyone's "right" to know what the wholesale price of a good is. If known, many consumers would (and do) misuse the information to try to get an unrealistic price.

Yes, the invoice price is what a car dealer pays. 20 years in the business has taught me that.

Jonathan


My understanding is the there are a number of sales incentives provided new car dealerships that are not reflected by the "invoice" price. Also, isn't it true that, unlike the piano industry, much of the profitability of new car dealerships are from non-sales income, particularly service?
Posted by: Rickster

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/10/12 11:11 AM

I know this is OT, and there is a lot of difference between new cars and new pianos, but since Steve Cohen is using the analogy, I’ll chime in… smile

A sales manager of a medium size Ford auto dealership used to be a member of my Church. I ask him one Sunday, out of curiosity, how much commission a car salesperson usually made on the sale of a new car (if he didn’t mind me asking). He said it depended on the particular model, and what kind of price was negotiated, but usually ranged from $150 to $300 per car. Much less than I was expecting.

On the other hand, he said the sales commission on a late model used car could be as much as $3000, depending on the profit margin the dealer was making. He said most auto dealership make the most profit on the sale of late model used cars they take in as trade-ins.

So, when the car dealer offers you peanuts on your trade, they turn around and make big bucks on it… such is the nature of the business.

Personally, I think the best approach on getting the best price on a new piano is to shop around at the various dealers. The problem is, at least in my area, there are not that many dealers around, unfortunately.

Rick
Posted by: Plowboy

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/10/12 11:46 AM

Originally Posted By: monads

It's the buyer who lowballs and want's dealer cost for a product that upsets the market. That practice is not "fair/reasonable". Most consumers are not Cost Engineers, they have no idea of 'overhead' costs or what it takes to be a sustainable business or hidden dealer service costs associated with a product.


It's the customer's fault that the system set up by the dealers doesn't work?
Posted by: monads

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/10/12 12:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Plowboy
Originally Posted By: monads

It's the buyer who lowballs and want's dealer cost for a product that upsets the market. That practice is not "fair/reasonable". Most consumers are not Cost Engineers, they have no idea of 'overhead' costs or what it takes to be a sustainable business or hidden dealer service costs associated with a product.


It's the customer's fault that the system set up by the dealers doesn't work?


Not necessarily, I was saying it's the customer's fault who figures out the cost, and abuses the knowledge not being fair to different dealer's OH costs. They don't have to buy the piano from xyz dealer if they don't like.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/10/12 01:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Plowboy
Originally Posted By: monads

It's the buyer who lowballs and want's dealer cost for a product that upsets the market. That practice is not "fair/reasonable". Most consumers are not Cost Engineers, they have no idea of 'overhead' costs or what it takes to be a sustainable business or hidden dealer service costs associated with a product.


It's the customer's fault that the system set up by the dealers doesn't work?


What alternative system would you suggest?

[Perhaps it would be better to answer in a new thread.]
Posted by: Jonathan Alford

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/10/12 03:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: Jonathan Alford
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen


One further point: What is the actual wholesale cost of a washing machine, a tractor, a high-end wristwatch, a high-end camera, or for that matter any consumer product. Do you really think the "invoice" price on a car reflects the actual price paid by a car dealers?


I agree that it is not anyone's "right" to know what the wholesale price of a good is. If known, many consumers would (and do) misuse the information to try to get an unrealistic price.

Yes, the invoice price is what a car dealer pays. 20 years in the business has taught me that.

Jonathan


My understanding is the there are a number of sales incentives provided new car dealerships that are not reflected by the "invoice" price. Also, isn't it true that, unlike the piano industry, much of the profitability of new car dealerships are from non-sales income, particularly service?



There are very few direct to dealer incentives available anymore. Usually only at model year switch over for last year's models on the lot. Not all manufacturers even do that anymore. Almost all the incentives available now on new cars are manufacturer to consumer incentives.

Auto dealers do have service departments - some make money with them - some do not. I see nothing stopping Piano Dealers from doing the same.

Auto dealers hire expensive, knowledgable technicians and spend lots of money on intrastructure to support them. Run properly - the service department can make money. Run poorly - it can close the business down.

Jonathan
Posted by: Sneakers

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/12/12 07:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen

What alternative system would you suggest?

Isn't Steinway's system of non-negotiable prices an obvious solution? If I understand that the price is what it is, I won't feel the burden of researching prices to make sure I'm getting a good deal.

Piano dealers complain on this board about consumers who do research, but that's the logical response to negotiable pricing and sticker prices that are double what the dealer can sell for.

Perhaps dealers should contact the manufacturers and request standardized pricing.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/12/12 09:12 AM

Due to the nature and strength of the brand, Steinway is able to exert far more control of pricing issue that any other manufacturer.

Also, your suggested model would likely be illegal as it amounts to price fixing, a violation of federal law.
Posted by: Sneakers

Re: Kawai K3 price - 05/12/12 09:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen

Also, your suggested model would likely be illegal as it amounts to price fixing, a violation of federal law.
Incorrect. It's no different than an iphone being the same price at every store.
Posted by: summitnj

Re: Kawai K3 price - 07/21/13 05:33 PM

Rafterman, I'm in the market for a k3 and I'm in north Jersey. Do you mind sharing where I can go for your deal? Thanks
Posted by: pianocritic

Re: Kawai K3 price - 07/22/13 02:34 PM

Having been in business for the majority of my life, the operating percentage has nothing to do with the wholesale price of a product. Macy's and starbuck's were mentioned. Their raw cost of product could be in the 700 or 800% but their operating margin at the end of the day might be the 7 to 9% range. The cost of doing business involves so much more than the wholesale price of the product. Wholesale prices can also vary by quantity discounts, location from the supplier, dealer incentives such as paying options and many more. The fact is some dealers, because of these factors, can sell at a lower price than others. The dealer who has to sell at a higher margin to remain in business is not a cheat or crook because he needs a higher margin to stay in business and provide you with the service you deserve. Just like operating your personal budget requires you to not spend more than you take in, hopefully. A dealer must also work in that manner. He also is entitled to make a living. Very few people are willing to invest the amount of money needed to run a business on the hope that you will be successful. Most people would rather get a paycheck for someone willing to take that risk.