Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better?

Posted by: Babyloneden

Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/26/12 10:50 AM

Hi everyone, due to lack fo budget(around $4000), compare to these 3 China made piano: Pearl River(or Ritmiiller), Perzina and Kawai(China made, NOT Japan made). Which is worth to buy? Also, I know Pearl river and Kawai both are authentic brand. Does Perzina too?

Thanks
Posted by: gnuboi

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/26/12 11:47 AM

Perzina is not just a piano brand but also the name of the company. They are European but set up their factory in China. I would say there's not a big difference at this price so go with the one you are most comfortable with. Kawai is the most established brand here, so I would expect the other two to offer a bit more in order to compete.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/26/12 12:22 PM

Quote:
Pearl River(or Ritmuller), Perzina and Kawai(China made, NOT Japan made).


If it is the new Premium line Ritmuller designed by Lothar Thomma, they have nothing to do with stock Pearl Rivers.

It's an entirely different species incorporating vastly different designs, specs, built quality and certainly "sound".

Placed besides each other, the pianos perform entirely different.

This would become evident to anybody at virtually first touch.

Good luck in your choice!

Norbert
Posted by: Babyloneden

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/26/12 01:14 PM

Hi, is the new Premium line LQ series? I've already have a play in my local shop. The model is Ritmuller LQ120. The key touch is almost perfect and sound also good. However, I prefer a red color one in my room and at least 122 size or higher. But they only have 120 size and LQ series only offers black color. But I will call them when they stock 125 tomorrow.

Why I am interested in Perzina is its special bass sound(obviousely better than other two).
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/26/12 02:34 PM

Also, the Kawai is not made in China. They are made in Japan and Indonesia.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/26/12 04:36 PM

Quote:
Also, the Kawai is not made in China. They are made in Japan and Indonesia.

Could OP perhaps be looking at a KX-21?
Was this an older model or do they still make it?
It certainly was once available in Canada.

Perhaps OP is writing from outside the U.S.?

Norbert
Posted by: master88er

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/26/12 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Also, the Kawai is not made in China. They are made in Japan and Indonesia.



Steve - beg to differ with you there. I just returned from China, and in deed, there are Chinese made Kawai's supposedly only made for the domestic market. These are made by Parsons and Beijing. I know, it was a surprise to me too - But I have pics to prove it!

As soon as I catch up with other work, I'm going to post on some of my findings and explorations .... and I have another moniker to add to my already lengthy signature f
Posted by: turandot

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/26/12 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By: master88er


Steve - beg to differ with you there. I just returned from China, and in deed, there are Chinese made Kawai's supposedly only made for the domestic market. These are made by Parsons and Beijing.


The lengths to which a dedicated forum retailer will travel to resolve a question are impressive. grin f

Actually, member Chen (forum name) first reported on Kawai production at Parsons a couple of years ago. He described himself as a Kawai employee working inside the Pasons production complex. His reports never created any gasps here. shocked

The first to report on the remarkable similarities between certain Kawai models and Beijing models was Glenn Treibetz.

The first to report on the fact that European retailers were going with Indoesian K-3's rather than the more expensive Japanese made ones (also available to them) was Chris Venables.

I think all this means is that Kawai is hedging its bets on the future, and why not? The Parsons connection in particular makes a lot of sense since Parsons' own retail stores sell oodles of Kawai pianos in China.

Master,

Once you unpack all your contraband CD's DVD's, and pharmaceuticals, maybe you could report your finding about PR's use of the Rimuller and Kayserberg labels on the home market.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/26/12 08:20 PM

Companies today still trying to call the word "China" a dirty word, better have their economic house in order.

[Piano] companies happy enough to sell only in Afghanistan,Luxemburg and Ghana don't have the trouble

All others take note that the Chinese are no longer the coolies of the world.
They got the most money, the largest markets and increasingly the most political power.

Rest assured China will not be impressed by goods made in Indonesia. China's own huge domestic market demands and will continue to obtain goods produced on their own terms. If this be within their own country, so be it. In fact, it long *is*.

Fools will deny and fight this but others including 8000 odd German corporations ["eight thousand"..] are meantime thriving.

So do virtually all our resource companies here in Canada.

"Hide and seek" is rapidly becoming a game for dedicated loosers.

What is for some a threat remaining a "dirty word" has long become opportunity for others. GREAT opportunity!

Here's from one you'd least expect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo

Norbert
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/26/12 08:23 PM

While I was aware that Kawai produced pianos in China for domestic distribution, I thought the imports to North America were limited to Japanese- and Indonesian-made instruments.
Posted by: turandot

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/26/12 09:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
China's own huge domestic market demands and will continue to obtain goods produced on their own terms. If this be within their own country, so be it. In fact, it long *is*.

Norbert


Norbert,

I really don't think the rest of your post breaks any new wind ground. However, this excerpt is a bit startling, even from you. grin

To the extent that their individual income permits, Chinese are keenly interested in and aspire to ownership of foreign goods from the West. As their level of income rises, so with it rises their level of interest in owning what a generation ago would have been inconceivable to them.

This is not an indictment of China's ability to produce quality goods. It is simply a social phenomenon that has repeated itself throughout Asia since WW2.

I don't know what you mean exactly when you say that Chinese demand goods produced on their own terms, but if you mean by that statement that Chinese are demanding Chinese-made products, you are simply wrong.

I also think you're off target in attacking fools who think that the Chinese are a race of coolies. Only a backwoods cretan whose sole cultural acquaintance with China is a pair of disposable chopsticks from the take-ot has that cultural image today. The operative word in 2012 is scary, not dirty.
Posted by: Babyloneden

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/27/12 12:34 AM

ops...Let's back to the topic not China.
master88er is correct, because I am in China now. But only Parsons will produce China Kawai, Beijing will no longer OEM Kawai.
However, you will still find both Beijing Kawai(a few inventory) and Parsons Kawai in the market.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/27/12 12:46 AM

Babyloneden:

Your situation in China is really no different than that of any other piano shopper.

Congratulations: today we sold a piano "made in China" against another one which was not.

Tomorrow, it may be the other way around.

Touch and sound is really what counts most.

There's no quick advice giving outside that.

Good luck!

P.S. Your English is excellent!

Norbert smile
Posted by: master88er

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/27/12 02:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Babyloneden
ops...Let's back to the topic not China.
master88er is correct


... and you expected anything else? laugh
Posted by: turandot

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/27/12 05:15 PM

Originally Posted By: master88er
Originally Posted By: Babyloneden
ops...Let's back to the topic not China.
master88er is correct


... and you expected anything else? laugh


Well, yea! You're a real sweetheart grin, but.......

I don't know that you let him know that he was in China, and even if you had, I would wager that he already knew that without your help.

Could you help him out on the question of the Ritmuller model he describes (a company you represent) instead of exploring the dark secrets of Kawai outsourcing (the copany you don't represent)?

I would find it useful as well because from what I understand the use of the names Ritmuller and Kayserberg on pianos is different in Asia from their use in the Western market.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/27/12 06:40 PM

The question of 'outsourcing' only came up after Steve Cohen claimed Kawai pianos were only made in either Japan or Indonesia.
I later tried to make the point that in today's market the quality of these uprights had less to do with *where* they were made than their musical quality and preference by owner.

If it were 9'concert grands, the discussion would most likely be somewhat different.

Don't forget these are simple uprights and it would be more interesting to hear what OP has to say and his own impressions than we constantly telling *him*

Happy choosing!

Norbert smile
Posted by: turandot

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/27/12 09:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
The question of 'outsourcing' only came up after Steve Cohen claimed Kawai pianos were only made in either Japan or Indonesia.
I later tried to make the point that in today's market the quality of these uprights had less to do with *where* they were made than their musical quality and preference by owner,

Norbert smile


Norbert,

I realize that Russell was clariying a misstatement and I realize that you were trying to be helpful in sorting out which Kawai it might be.. I'm only pulling Russell's chain to get him (if he can) to speak to the use of the Ritmuller and Kayserberg's names in the Asian market. It's a little selfish because I peronsally find it very confusing.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/27/12 10:03 PM

Quote:
I personally find it very confusing.


Unfortunately you are right there....sigh

Norbert
Posted by: Babyloneden

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/28/12 02:41 PM

Hi there,

I still haven't bought yet.

1. As piano "OEM in China", in my opinion, unlike digital products, the "skill level" of works fully as important as piano parts. So I think there will be still slight diffeence between a outsourced piano and original one. At least for me, outsourced Kawai and original Kawai have noticeable difference. Yamaha seems to be better because they own factory in China and that ensure better quality control.

2. Some native Chinese brand piano really impress me at both workmanship and tone including Pearl River, Ritmuller, Kayserburg. Compare to Japanese Yamaha/Kawai, these are really very good(at least in term of performance price ratio). But why they are my first choice is just because too many people buy them here and I don't want to follow(might sounds ridiculous).

3. I did a research about Ritmüller LQ120 I mentioned before and this modle doesn't appear on Pearlriver company's official website. And other people told me this is just a custom modle not a common modle. Other Pearlriver shop still recommend me to choose common models such as Ritmüller R6/UP120R4 or etc(I don't know if Pearlriver name thier product same name in oversea).

4. Why I post the thread here is just want to hear more differnect voices. For example, Perzina salesclerk emphasizes their product was in group 3A(The Piano Book by Lary Fine). However, businessmen in China is used to "buy a ranking", so that list is highly doubted in China's piano forum. Do you think that list is reliable or just a joke?

5. I just found a new choice today - May Berlin. Will do more rearch.

Thanks
Posted by: master88er

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/28/12 03:38 PM

Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: Norbert
The question of 'outsourcing' only came up after Steve Cohen claimed Kawai pianos were only made in either Japan or Indonesia.
I later tried to make the point that in today's market the quality of these uprights had less to do with *where* they were made than their musical quality and preference by owner,

Norbert smile


Norbert,

I realize that Russell was clariying a misstatement and I realize that you were trying to be helpful in sorting out which Kawai it might be.. I'm only pulling Russell's chain to get him (if he can) to speak to the use of the Ritmuller and Kayserberg's names in the Asian market. It's a little selfish because I peronsally find it very confusing.


If I were the OP, when it comes to Pearl River product in the domestic (China) market, I would be LESS concerned with the brand name on the product than the model of the product. For example, I would probably opt for the UH series upright pianos over the UP series upright pianos whether they say Pearl River, Ritmuller, Kayserburg, Essex, or Jing Zhu ( shocked ) . Again, ONLY IN THE DOMESTIC MARKET, the pianos with identical model numbers have, well, pretty identical features.

The above being said, I would HIGHLY encourage the OP to look at the new products with the Pearl River, Ritmuller and Kayserburg labels on them that say "Pearl River Beijing piano" on the lower right hand corner of the fall board. These instruments come from Pearls factory in Beijing and are new models not available outside of China, yet. They are absolutely FABULOUS!

In the USA and Europe, we have not yet seen what we will know as Kayserburg yet (other than in one retail store in the USA), but NAMM will probably correct that situation. These pianos will be TOTALLY different than the Kayserburgs alluded to above (and those sold in Australia), and have models starting with KA and KD. I'll go into those in another thread at another time, or maybe not ... given the recent tone of postings on PW.
Posted by: Karl Watson

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/28/12 11:29 PM

Russell:

Those of us who either play the piano or are involved in its construction, repair and/or regulation, or perhaps some combination of the above, all know very well that your contributions to this forum are HIGHLY valued.

I hope you will consider finishing your last as it's sure to be valued by those who do their best to avoid the delusional, those that put a high value on anything that will increase their knowledge of the instrument.

Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY
Posted by: turandot

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/29/12 10:07 AM

Babylon,

Using your numbers in your last post....

1.) OEM could theoretically be used as a means to offer a better piano that one could build in house, but in reality is used to save on costs or to cover the fact that a piano 'maker' doesn't really have a house at all.

2.) not necessarily ridiculous, but the name on the fallboard of most pianos probably means less now than it ever has.

3.) UP is an older series that has been completely replaced in the US market. Master 88er gives you good advice.

4.) Fine's rankings are controversial here because people read too much into them. Mr. Fine has said many times that they are offered simply as a rough guide and based more on positioning in the market (price) than a through examination of quality. I think they can be very misleading when applied to the Asian market because in many cases fallboard names and models sold there are not the sane as what we are offered here. Perzina has always been enthusiastic about Fine's ratings because Mr. Fine has always had good things to say about their vertical models. Undertandably, they use that in their general marketing here.

5.) The May Berlin pianos that we got in the US market when they were introduced came from Parsons and were very similar to other Parsons products offered by other 'makers'. The marketing hook with them was that they were all reportedly sent to Germany for final inspection before being sent to North America.

These days, I don't think the ones offered here are coming from Parsons and the claim of being sent to Europe for final inspection is no longer made. I doubt very much that any May Berlin pianos sold in China ever saw the light of day in a German piano factory. It's just another example of how you should be careful evaluating what you have there based on what you hear and read about here.

Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/29/12 01:17 PM

The ways of choosing a piano are made very differently by different people. A lot of it is by "hunch" and often has nothing to do with the instrument itself.

For no others is this more true than the Chinese themselves and I shall say this is actually "good" for us in the West.

But will or 'can' it last?

The moment this will change with the Chinese themselves getting off the "image deat" realizing that many great quality consumer goods can actually be made on their own soil, it will change everything one more time.

Which will be serious.

Since the piano business is such a competitive business, there's a lot of "engineered" confusion going on, unfortunately much of it having come from China.

But China is no longer alone.

Not exactly having had the best reputation for manufactured goods before, there's no place on earth where changes are happening faster and more profoundly than in that country.

When in Germany or simply watching DW ["Deutsche Welle"] in the evening I hear again and again the Germans have long realized their industry would long have been at virtual standstill without heavily committing to China.

Today,over 8000 German companies are producing stuff there, some of it being shipped back, some staying there.

Pearl River, Pasons and Hailun are not the only ones who are taking full advantage of this new reality of cooperation and joint ventures.

The very reason a great number of Germany's best industry experts, engineers, scientists, business people and perhaps people like Lothar Thomma are today in China has to be understood within that very context.

The stakes are high for everone involved.

It's a simple fact that not one single Volkswagen,Audi, Mercedes or GM would be allowed to be sold in China without enormous commitments and investments by these companies on Chinese soil first.

Accepting that the landscape has entirely changed is not and has not been easy for everybody. For many it still insn't.

The first time we ran into Beijing made Steigermann and then later the Hailun made "Steigerman Premiums" we were actually shocked.

How could such great sounding pianos come from "China" and how could they have been offered so inexpensive?

We soon became dealers and I have to still find one single piano which has fallen apart on us or our customers.

The newly designed and manufactured pianos today by a select group of manufactureres are pushing the ante up one more notch yet. These definitely include some of the pianos mentioned.

In fact these new lines are often pianos so spectacular that putting them side by side to other,much better known and highly respected makes can become a serious challenge.

Of course not many dealers are willing to offer this opportunity to their customers knowing full well it could cost them a deal on a piano of much higher price.

It has happened to us and it's unfortunately the price to pay when not arbitrarily manipulating stock on showroom floor.

Having said this, perhaps it is indeed better not to consider some of the better - let alone "top" - Chinese made pianos at all.

Once this will change,we may not recognize the landscape around us any longer.

If and how long this can be prevented considering the sheer number of children learning piano in China today, may be an entirely different question.

Translation anybody?

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/menschen-wirtschaft/klavierbau-piano-statt-forte-11913820.html

Norbert
Posted by: Grandman

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/29/12 04:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
The ways of choosing a piano are made very differently by different people. A lot of it is by "hunch" and often has nothing to do with the instrument itself.

For no others is this more true than the Chinese themselves and I shall say this is actually "good" for us in the West.

But will or 'can' it last?

The moment this will change with the Chinese themselves getting off the "image deat" realizing that many great quality consumer goods can actually be made on their own soil, it will change everything one more time.

Which will be serious.

Since the piano business is such a competitive business, there's a lot of "engineered" confusion going on, unfortunately much of it having come from China.

But China is no longer alone.

Not exactly having had the best reputation for manufactured goods before, there's no place on earth where changes are happening faster and more profoundly than in that country.

When in Germany or simply watching DW ["Deutsche Welle"] in the evening I hear again and again the Germans have long realized their industry would long have been at virtual standstill without heavily committing to China.

Today,over 8000 German companies are producing stuff there, some of it being shipped back, some staying there.

Pearl River, Pasons and Hailun are not the only ones who are taking full advantage of this new reality of cooperation and joint ventures.

The very reason a great number of Germany's best industry experts, engineers, scientists, business people and perhaps people like Lothar Thomma are today in China has to be understood within that very context.

The stakes are high for everone involved.

It's a simple fact that not one single Volkswagen,Audi, Mercedes or GM would be allowed to be sold in China without enormous commitments and investments by these companies on Chinese soil first.

Accepting that the landscape has entirely changed is not and has not been easy for everybody. For many it still insn't.

The first time we ran into Beijing made Steigermann and then later the Hailun made "Steigerman Premiums" we were actually shocked.

How could such great sounding pianos come from "China" and how could they have been offered so inexpensive?

We soon became dealers and I have to still find one single piano which has fallen apart on us or our customers.

The newly designed and manufactured pianos today by a select group of manufactureres are pushing the ante up one more notch yet. These definitely include some of the pianos mentioned.

In fact these new lines are often pianos so spectacular that putting them side by side to other,much better known and highly respected makes can become a serious challenge.

Of course not many dealers are willing to offer this opportunity to their customers knowing full well it could cost them a deal on a piano of much higher price.

It has happened to us and it's unfortunately the price to pay when not arbitrarily manipulating stock on showroom floor.

Having said this, perhaps it is indeed better not to consider some of the better - let alone "top" - Chinese made pianos at all.

Once this will change,we may not recognize the landscape around us any longer.

If and how long this can be prevented considering the sheer number of children learning piano in China today, may be an entirely different question.

Translation anybody?

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/menschen-wirtschaft/klavierbau-piano-statt-forte-11913820.html

Norbert


In contrast to the overwhelming majority opinion on this forum, I think you make a valid point, Norbert. In my ongoing search, I have been extremely surprised at the build quality and musical tone of the top end Chinese pianos.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/29/12 08:44 PM

Quote:
In contrast to the overwhelming majority opinion on this forum, I think you make a valid point, Norbert. In my ongoing search, I have been extremely surprised at the build quality and musical tone of the top end Chinese pianos.


Thanks, but I highly doubt there's an "overwhelming majority" not taking note.

For one, there's a quickly growing, very happy customer base for some of these pianos. They just can't be all wrong.

Next, should anybody understand the above posted article from the economic section of "Frankfurter Allgemeine", a major German newspaper, the smart ones in the industry have long "taking note". And adjusted in pretty major way....

In fact, these guys are busy using the new "piano world order" to their full advantage.

Norbert
Posted by: rlinkt

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/29/12 09:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Grandman
In contrast to the overwhelming majority opinion on this forum, I think you make a valid point, Norbert. In my ongoing search, I have been extremely surprised at the build quality and musical tone of the top end Chinese pianos.


As a recent buyer of a Ritmuller, I can assure you that you are not the only one.
Posted by: Sparky McBiff

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/29/12 09:18 PM

Despite being warned by a few tuners (and several teachers) NOT to buy a Chinese piano I still did.
I wasn't extremely knowledgeable about pianos when I started but I all my research was showing that they were basing their opinion on outdated ideas from earlier days.
Then it turned out that not one of those that had warned me against buying a Hailun had actually ever worked on one or even examined one up close and thus really knew nothing about them.
Those that did examine my Hailun after I got it couldn't hide their surprise and had to begrudgingly admit that it was indeed very well built. (I would have bought a Brodmann as well).
If I had to do it all over again I would still buy either a Hailun or a Brodmann, but probably try to buy the largest one.
Posted by: Guapo Gabacho

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/29/12 09:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
Translation anybody?


Mr. Google gives it a try:

Sometimes, in a quiet hour, Hannes Schimmel-Vogel heretical thoughts go through your head. Then he looks at fellow managers, think of conversations with other CEOs and circulated thoughts such as: In what a complex world we actually live in the piano industry? How much easier you could make money elsewhere and get on the career ladder?

The 42-year old blond boy who has married into the Brunswick dynasty keys and nine years leading the Company, has every reason to such reasoning. Of all the traditional piano maker Schimmel, whose instruments have generations of young school music closer to either spoiled or had to sign three years ago insolvency. Today, mold is again fairly stable, but the future is - this knowledge goes beyond the cliché - more uncertain than ever. And not only of Lower Saxony.

A great opportunity and a big problem at the same time
A few facts and figures meet, and you understand why reports of piano producers have been popular topped with a headline from the idea of ​​recycling drawer: "Piano morte". The late sixties and early seventies, the piano manufacturer in this country produced about 30,000 instruments. The early eighties, there was an initial dip, sales fell to 25,000 units. Today, the company would be more than happy to have such a number, the current production is about 11,000. Only a small part of it remains in Germany: 3000. The rest of the purchases abroad.

Third

© FRANZ BISCHOF
Hannes Schimmel-Vogel leads the Braunschweig piano manufacturer molds since 2003. He already has a bankruptcy behind
Our pianos are therefore primarily not from local factories, but in Chinese, Korean and Japanese. We serve the world, and the world supplying us. Globalization? Yes, but in contrast to a rule that is based on the same value chain. Thus Asia and China in particular a great opportunity for the German piano maker and a major problem at the same time.

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An organically grown chaos
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Who wants to know how the survivors tick today must be prepared for long journeys. The Saxon Seifhennersdorf is at the end of Germany, 100 kilometers from Dresden, on the southeastern edge of the Republic. A place that has lost 40 percent since the fall of its inhabitants. Here once stood a great dress and a shoe factory. But that's history. Reality, however, is the largest employer in the area - and this is now a piano maker. Several renovated cream production facility with elongated box windows harboring C. Bechstein piano factory AG, as the listed company called officially. The term "factory" does not really. Yes, there are computer-controlled drilling and milling machines, it also here. But the 150 staff are mainly manual workers. Bands in vain. The production looks like a better carpenter's workshop. , Equivalent to the industry standard.

Curious whether now visiting Bechstein in Seifhennersdorf, mold in Braunschweig or Blüthner in Großpösna in Leipzig: The impression of an organically grown chaos firmer. At least one company with all visitors. Their understanding of the initially assessed as exorbitant price of instruments grows. Perhaps it could be a wing similar to a car is screwed together glued together on one or two days. Whether a pianist would have been delighted with it is another question. And so the manufacturers take time - at least those who occupy what they call the premium segment.

Producers seek their salvation in the Asia-cheap rail
Until they have one wing is finished, it can take nine months or 18 Alone take the drying procedures for the wood and last and last. In the drying chamber with temperatures around 30 degrees the minute and the hour is not a relevant unit. Elsewhere there is timelessness. Infinite patience seems a Klavierbaumeister own when he worked in his little cubby hammers, lay hold long produced for finished. The felt of each of these parts that strike the strings will put many dozen times with fine needle sticks, to make it more elastic. With small flames the hammer handles are heated to adjust their position to tenths of a millimeter.

Is it any wonder that a product manufactured in Germany beginner piano beats with at least 7000 Euros to the price? That for the standard piano must pay 30,000 euros? And a wing sometimes can cost 150,000 euros? Wonders who likes and can afford it. Of the concert pianist alone could no agency life, not even by Russian oligarchs, who are occasionally intervene with German manufacturers. Since even the demand of all Germans together modestly excludes - add 82 million people to 3000 annually to a new acoustic piano from German manufacturing - Demand must come from somewhere else. And so is the great dream of the German piano industry: China. A dream and a nightmare at the same time. After all, who in this country can suddenly have a piano for 1500 euros, which you can easily begin to wonder if it actually has to be made in Germany.

And so many producers now seek their salvation in the Asia-cheap rail. Bechstein has with the Chinese manufacturer Hailun Piano signed a cooperation agreement, which runs for a year. A "quality product made in China" promises CEO Karl Schulze, and so it really looks like quality, is "designed by Bechstein" on the models. Similar mold goes in front of the middle kingdom. Since 2008, the Brunswick working with a manufacturing partner, who is also their importer.

High proportion of manual work
If you get involved as a more expensive supplier in China, the threat of danger. Why, is likely to ask some customers, I want to spend much money for supposedly German workmanship, the manufacturer produced in China anyway? To avoid such thoughts, the Germans eighth meticulously on brand separation. In China, no mold-made pianos, no wings and no Bechstein Blüthner pianos. In China can produce mold tools with the beautiful German name May Berlin, Bechstein instruments with the beautiful German name Zimmermann and Blüthner instruments with the beautiful German name Irmler.

Given the high proportion of manual labor, the cheap Chinese wages suggests dramatically reflected in the price. About half of the production cost of a piano, expects the chairman of the Association of Piano and Director of Grotrian, Burkhard Stein before, attributable to the wage. Makes 40 percent of the material, the rest come from, among other sales and profit margin. This explains why a piano dealer as the Austrian company Zifreind the Irmler-wing "F 160 Studio" ("by Blüthner") with a suggested retail price of 11,590 euros offered, while even a little smaller original Blüthner Model "11" will cost 35,856 euros.

"The trees do not grow to the sky"
The hopes of the industry are on budget-conscious Germans and especially to the Chinese themselves, the Chinese people as the piano without any ifs and buts apply - at least since pianist Lang Lang has to serve as a role model. The 30-year-old is a built-up of clever marketing pop star who not only play the piano well, but also can tell nice stories that are fit for the legend. At the age of two years, Lang Lang is on record that he had seen a cartoon with Tom and Jerry. In the short film "The Cat Concerto" from 1946, Tom has a star pianist in coping with the disorders of his young opponent. His performance, rapid Hungarian Rhapsody no. 2 by Franz Liszt is, still one of the favorite pieces of the star, for the campaigns for Steinway.

Supposedly Lang Lang have moved millions of young Chinese to play. And supposedly there are 80 million in China who want to learn to play the piano. 80 million - if only one-thousandth of it would be a tool set of German manufacturing, the German manufacturers were their concerns going on. But it is not so simple. Schimmel-Vogel warns against unrealistic expectations, particularly as the brand awareness of the Chinese is anything but strong. And even many of them falsely suggesting a German origin. It's not just the Germans themselves, who provided their China-production with German piano names. There are also the Chinese themselves that make up German. "The look in the phone book again and look to a typical German name of" an industry insider says with just a hint of irony in his voice.

So then arise pianos of shock "Ritmüller". Even before the brand "Edelweiss" frighten you back not know Piano Association official stone. But he also knows that to buy large Chinese manufacturers such as Pearl River German technology and even local Klavierbaumeister recruit. Stein's conclusion: "The trees do not grow to the sky, not in China."

As a pianist who does not need notes
All the more surprising that in such a branch manager and chief not close the dozen the piano lid. It promises great growth apparently not currently still hope for a breakthrough in the future. Ensure the piano belongs in every economic cycle of the losers. In a downturn, the industry serves as a leading indicator, the upswing as lagging indicator. Which means: When it comes down to the economy, the piano makers are the first to notice that the. It goes up, they are the last to benefit.

All this seems to interest people as Bechstein chief Karl Schulze little. The feisty former piano dealer has made the Group after a bankruptcy in the nineties to a successful business. Bechstein is one of the few companies where it verified such statements. The listed company must publicly and broadly accountable. Karl Schulze appears like a pianist who needs no notes, but his score in his sleep dominated. Of the heruntergeratterten figures hangs above all: The pre-tax return is almost 10 percent. At the pinnacle of success increases the 64-year-old Schulze expire. Its 20-percent stake in Bechstein he sold to the new owner Freymuth, and in 2014 he left the chief piano stool.

With family tradition and responsibility
A few years longer, the relatively young chef at Blüthner and mold make their management talent. Christian Blüthner-Haessler sounds confident. For decades we have had no operating loss, he says. And the current consumer spending? "40 years of the GDR have not we done, then it also creates such a Euro-crisis."

Schimmel-Vogel is a little quieter. After all, he already felt how it feels to a bankruptcy ". Like a roller coaster ride, where you do not know where it goes," Schimmel plays only "marginal" the piano, and who asks him what binds him to the instrument gets replied: ". Difficult to say" For him, the piano is a "mix of anachronism and civility." And this feeling fades with categories such as family tradition and responsibility for almost 200. Schimmel, after almost a decade ago succeeded his father at the head, once cleaned up, fired the old management and tangled with the union.

Today, the business management has become quieter, but he still knows ". It is trite, in the end it comes to sales and profits, and therefore, to reduce costs," Long pause. "But it has a charm that holds a da and motivated every day." Although perhaps elsewhere could earn easy money.
Posted by: trigalg693

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/29/12 11:37 PM

My only input here is, my cousin has a Ritmuller upright (I don't know which model) that's probably around half a decade old, and I was absolutely shocked because it had the best action out of any upright I've ever played. Including the nifty Steinway upright they had at Carnegie Hall.
Posted by: turandot

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/30/12 09:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Norbert


The moment this will change with the Chinese themselves getting off the "image deat" realizing that many great quality consumer goods can actually be made on their own soil, it will change everything one more time.

Which will be serious.

Since the piano business is such a competitive business, there's a lot of "engineered" confusion going on, unfortunately much of it having come from China.

But China is no longer alone.


Norbert


Norbert,

I believe the OP is a Chinese national living in China. He gives every appearance of being smart, thoughtful, well-educated, and fluent in English. He shows no indication of being blinded by image. I don't know that your predictions, while always interesting (even if somewhat repetitive grin) , relate to any of his specific questions.

Same with the link. Karl Schulze and Hannes Schimmel-Vogel have their own issues, but The OP's issue is trying to sort through what's available to him at this moment in time.

The viewpoint of Deutsche Welle is naturally tilted toward the survival of German industry in a changing world. In that sense China is extremely important in terms of partnering, selling into, and accessing lower-cost skilled labor. There's nothing wrong with any of that, and Germany's realization of its opportunities in China has been to its benefit. But when was the last time you were in China? The focus of the average consumer there is somewhat different from Deutshe Welle's. And for the piano consumer, even locating and hiring a competent, unaffiliated, independent-minded technician to evaluate a possible new piano for purchase is a bit of an issue.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/30/12 11:49 AM

Quote:
And for the piano consumer, even locating and hiring a competent, unaffiliated, independent-minded technician to evaluate a possible new piano for purchase is a bit of an issue.


I have no agenda whatsoever if OP buys a Chinese piano or not, be it Essex, Yamaha, Kawai Perzina, Ritmuller or whatever.

If like in our city of Vancouver B.C. the prejudice against Chinese pianos is so much among local technicians simply because they have seen only the worst of those brought in by the competion [on purpose?] hauling in a tech in could also be of no great help.

Those who can actually play and make up their own mind, are my own favourite species. And those buy all kinds of pianos.

Like the teacher who recently visited with her student virtually shouting at me she "would never recommend a Chinese piano" - and then bought one herself.

Meantime ask your local dealer for the "certificate of origin" where the fine piano you are admiring on his floor may actually originate from.

Or perhaps 90% of its parts and components.

You may be in for a surprise.

In fact, even your "independent technician" may not have known that..

Norbert
Posted by: KC Ng

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/30/12 02:15 PM

I was once regulating piano in a piano store in Hong Kong. A customer came by and asked me for my opinions on inexpensive and non-Chinese made pianos in the store. I tried out two pre-owned pianos: one was German and the other one was British. I played the same piece of music on both pianos, and found that they both were out of tune and out of regulation. I told the customer that they are playable but will need some works, and asked which tone he likes better. He said he has no idea, but just doesn't want to get a Chinese one. There were quite a number of Chinese pianos with similar price range to that German and British in the store. But he didn't listen, or even look at any one of them.
I explained to him that there are many German-Chinese and Japanese-Chinese semi-finished pianos and German designed, or Japanese designed, Chinese pianos with good quality and a rather "affordable" price. But he just didn't want to get something Chinese-related.
Well, being a Chinese, sometimes I really have to think twice, or more, when I am deciding to buy things that are made in China too. Because I have experiences getting stuffs from China that didn't last long or even didn't work, and read many news regarding the quality and safety issues of Chinese products. It is the image of "Chinese-made" and our experience with Chinese made products that make it hard to believe that Chinese is capable of making quality products.
Globalization brings skills and knowledge, as well as opportunities in the manufacturing industry in China. It won't take long to for Chinese to learn and make quality products, but may take decades to convince others that quality products can be made in China.
Posted by: turandot

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/30/12 05:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert

Those who can actually play and make up their own mind, are my own favourite species. And those buy all kinds of pianos.
Norbert


Those who are confident in their own ears and fingers are fortunate in many ways, but may still make inquires into the build quality of a piano. Their concern in doing so is based on the long-term prognosis, not in how the thing sounds or even plays at that moment in time.

I think that is the nature of the OP's inquiry. He's not dead-set against buying Chinese. He's not at all like the typical Chinese consumer that KC Ng describes. The choices he mentions are all Chinese. I doubt if he's even considering the possibility of one of those pianos falling apart. It's more about the piano's ability to maintain its level of playing quality over the years after purchase. This is a normal concern that is not exclusive to Chiense pianos.

It seems likely that those of us in the West can't really give him all that much specific guidance due to the confusing fallboard names and even model numbers in use in China today, although I thought Russell gave him some very good and very pertinent advice. Whether you've been to China or not, I'm sure you're aware that many cheapo made-in-China pianos are for sale there that their manufacturers would not dare send here. It does seem however that if the OP can find a piano from Perzina, Parsons, or Hailun that is exported for sale in the West, and he likes it well enough to choose it, it should need only normal maintenance.

If the tech community in Vancouver is poisoned against Chinese pianos, that's unfortunate. That's not the case where I live. Then again, we don't get that many teachers rushing into shops demanding to buy un-Chinese and leaving the shop exhilirated about the Chinese piano they just bought.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/31/12 01:25 PM

Quote:
Then again, we don't get that many teachers rushing into shops demanding to buy un-Chinese and leaving the shop exhilirated about the Chinese piano they just bought.


This is true but has often to do with nothing else but 'price'

Yesterday we delivered a brand new, freshly flown in Sauter grand directly to waiting customer.

I can say in all honesty that this was the perhaps finest piano we have ever sold.

Together with Estonia, these pianos elicit an entirely different, much deeper & profound response from owners than those just being "happy" with their newly bought Chinese or whatever other oriental pianos.

It was an experience to see a fully grown man, piano teacher and tough ex-policeman literally touched to tears having realized a lifelong dream. Even we we stunned.

Thanks for the invitation to dinner after, a pleasure to celebrate together! [next on us of course... ]

Perhaps it's time to rethink our business model, leave the endless bickering about Oriental pianos to others and move exclusively to those which really seem to make a difference.

Norbert
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/31/12 03:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert

If like in our city of Vancouver B.C. the prejudice against Chinese pianos is so much among local technicians simply because they have seen only the worst of those brought in by the competion [on purpose?] hauling in a tech in could also be of no great help.
Norbert


The overgeneralization, labelling all local technicians here in Vancouver as suffering from discrimination against Chinese instrument is a bit inflammatory.

Indicating all Vancouver technicians suffer from this malady is of no great help in itself. How exactly would you like me to view this statement Norbert? I was under the impression that I have offered considerable assistance with your products, both in sales and support.

Originally Posted By: turandot

If the tech community in Vancouver is poisoned against Chinese pianos, that's unfortunate.


The tech community is a poisoned atmosphere in Vancouver for sure but the reason is not because of Chinese instruments; more a concerted effort to ostracize the independent technician and dealer along with who sells successfully the lines of higher quality Chinese instruments.

This was proven out when a gathering to show Hailun was boycotted intentionally several years back.

Back to regular programming....
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/31/12 04:08 PM

Dan:

There been a few exceptions like you, thank you very much.

But I was recently told by one prominent PTG member who is in contact with a lot of others here that the only reason why few techs in this city take interest in Brodmann, Hailun or Ritmueller pianos, is because "they are Chinese"

Hoping this doesn't include the majority of their customers these days...

Norbert
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/31/12 05:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert

But I was recently told by one prominent PTG member who is in contact with a lot of others here that the only reason why few techs in this city take interest in Brodmann, Hailun or Ritmueller pianos, is because "they are Chinese"

Hoping this doesn't include the majority of their customers these days...

Norbert



I have also been made aware of the way Chinese pianos are viewed locally. Some of this, in part, could be because of the Chinese instruments that landed here in the early nineties.

But the same could be stated about the Korean instruments in the early eighties, or the Japanese instruments of the late fifties and early sixties. A lot of resistance was evident upon the realization of those instruments landing on our docks and being sold in the marketplace.

I suppose we could say that misogyny is found in a lot of places these days including Vancouver.

I have no idea what the majority of their customers’ view is because I have distanced myself from most of the technicians locally.

I tune and repair pianos. Where they are manufactured, by whom, and who owns them is of little consequence in my shop.
Posted by: Guapo Gabacho

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/31/12 07:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
I suppose we could say that misogyny is found in a lot of places these days including Vancouver.


Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 10/31/12 08:13 PM


My mistake; I just returned to correct that. I meant xenophobia.
Posted by: jennie_hp

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/01/12 09:54 PM

Reading this post makes me curious about Perzina so I went to the Perzina distributor for the US and tried all 3 Perzina grands. I really like the sound and the look of it. To my ear, it sounds like a more expensive European piano. If I were shopping for Kawai RX vs Perzina, I would definitely give Perzina pianos serious consideration because they seem to be just as good, if not better and at much better price.

Only problem I have with Perzina is their grands don't have much of a track record and they are made in China...image problems. But hey, Iphones, Ipads, Ipods, are all made in China and the world loves them enough to make Apple the largest company in the US.

I also feel that the quality of a good piano is in the design and the components. Yes, I read that this is only the tip of the iceberg, but common....the modern piano is not a high tech instrument. It has been around for decades with only a few tweaks here and there. If you have good workers who are well trained, what's so hard about putting the parts together? It's not rocket science. Common sense tells me that fear of German design pianos with German parts assembled in China is probably blown out of proportion by the competitors.

This is my opinion and I'm not a professional pianist. I would say consumers like me are the majority of piano shoppers today. Traditional companies are taking notes and that's why Steinway have Essex.
Posted by: chen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/08/12 03:17 AM

hi Babyloneden ,

can you tell me the KAWAI piano's model made in china you mentioned ? thanks

now in china ,just Parson's Music produce KAWAI piano,and the model is KU serise ,exmP: KU-A1 KU120P,and ...you can check them on our web: www.kawaiyc.com,all the model are Upright.

by the way ,BeiJing not produce KAWAI piano anymore,since July
Posted by: chen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/08/12 03:44 AM

and turandot,a Kawai employee working inside the Pasons production,I am employee working in Parson's Music,thanks
Posted by: Jay

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/08/12 08:14 PM

chen, we have kx series that the distributor said is coming from hsinghai. so it means that since july kx is no longer produce by hsinghai but parson or if kawai decided to manufacture the kx in their indonesia plant now instead?
Posted by: chen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/08/12 08:39 PM

Jay,I think you are confused

in china ,Parson's produce KU serise,and before JUly,Beijing produce NK and KC serise,None of them were produced in ShangHai
Posted by: Jay

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/08/12 10:13 PM

chen, ops i thought Hsinghai (Xinghai) Beijing Piano Group Ltd. was the company making for Kawai(as per pianobuyer.com)?

maybe the model differ from country to another. this is the local distributor weblink, the model KX-21 http://www.kawaimalaysia.com/eAsia2u/eng...mp;itemid=12961

any idea where will the KX be produce now?
Posted by: chen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/08/12 10:30 PM

ok i see
Hsinghai Xinghai ,haha ,I understand now
kx is no longer produce by hsinghai ,and Kx serise no produce anymore ,it's a history ,it's end
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/09/12 08:37 PM

Quote:
in china ,Parson's produce KU serise,and before JUly,Beijing produce NK and KC serise,None of them were produced in ShangHai


As mentioned, the KX 21 series also was. It's a bit ironic that one of our past customers did not want to own a piano "made in China" but then bought one of these models instead...ha

Can you tell us why Kawai are reportedly no longer built by Beijing and now only exlusively by Parsons?

Having my own hunch - guessing it's all just 'good'ol business'

Norbert smile

Posted by: chen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/09/12 09:16 PM

YES ,Norbert KX 21 made in Beijing

No longer built by Beijing,I thought there have 3 reasons,
1,product's quality is not good enough,some Processing in detail not well,
2,Beijing Xinghai's own problem on management,
3,You know ,my pal,Business is war,and in china,there is and old proverb,“there can not accommodate two tigers in one mountain",so,Beijing Xinghai is a loser,just that,
one has to adapt to survive
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/09/12 11:48 PM

deleted
Posted by: chen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/10/12 12:07 AM

yes we purchased Wilam steinberg

we can' t produce KAWAI's Grand ,Japanese do not give us the permission .
Posted by: turandot

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/10/12 01:02 AM

Originally Posted By: chen
and turandot,a Kawai employee working inside the Pasons production,I am employee working in Parson's Music,thanks


Sorry Chen. Since you've always posted the Kawai logo with your name, I assumed Kawai was paying your salary. Are there Japanese Kawai people in house supervising production of their orders?

Norbert,

That was is a magical recording to be sure. I've heard of phantom mics, bu my goodness -- phantom recording! No evidence of any recording equipment or wires anywhere in the space. Astounding! grin

Also hard to miss the sheer force exerted by that Brodmann piano on the player. I've read the expression "blown away by a piano" many times on PW, but until your video link, I really didn't know what it meant. grin
Posted by: chen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/10/12 01:32 AM

YES,KAWAI have experts in YiChing for supervising
Posted by: schwammerl

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/10/12 01:43 AM

Quote:
That was is a magical recording to be sure. I've heard of phantom mics, bu my goodness -- phantom recording! No evidence of any recording equipment or wires anywhere in the space. Astounding!

Also hard to miss the sheer force exerted by that Brodmann piano on the player. I've read the expression "blown away by a piano" many times on PW, but until your video link, I really didn't know what it meant.


See recording information:

Studio Mateusz Zahora

...where at the very bottom of this page it says:

Quote:
* audio has been pre-recorded in the studio on a different piano than the one used in this video


hmm, schwammerl.
Posted by: turandot

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/10/12 07:55 AM

Originally Posted By: schwammerl
Quote:
That was is a magical recording to be sure. I've heard of phantom mics, bu my goodness -- phantom recording! No evidence of any recording equipment or wires anywhere in the space. Astounding!

Also hard to miss the sheer force exerted by that Brodmann piano on the player. I've read the expression "blown away by a piano" many times on PW, but until your video link, I really didn't know what it meant.


See recording information:

Studio Mateusz Zahora

...where at the very bottom of this page it says:

Quote:
* audio has been pre-recorded in the studio on a different piano than the one used in this video


hmm, schwammerl.


Luc,

I was aware, but thought it best to be playful about it (having just recently been through an ugly thread where a Hamburg Steinway filled in for a Cunningham for two weeks before the retailer who posted the clip supplied the details.) I didn't want to be perceived as a wet blanket.

In all honesty though, if a retailer for a brand posts a video clip that presents a brand he sells through the audio presence of another brand, I think he is skating on thin ice in terms of fraud. Obviously, this video was not cheap to make. Production values are way too high. Someone paid for it, and I doubt that that someone was Fedorova. My guess is that she was paid for her services by the same party that paid for the total production.

The piano biz has enough ethics problems as it is without getting involved in this sort of stuff. Although Brodmann pianos had no bearing on the OP's question, I'll just assume that Norbert didn't know what was going on in this clip when he posted it.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/10/12 11:05 AM

All I can say is that the sound was unmistakingly Brodmann. We had too many, heard too many..

The recording standard was very high which certainly helped.

Fedorova also performs on many other pianos so yes, this was most likely a paid demo.

But very nice nonetheless.

Chen: Since Kawai doesn't allow Parsons to build grands I can now see why they're going in other directions developing more of your own.

You also build your house brand Toyama.

Care to tell us a bit about those?
[hope am not diverting..]

Thanks

Norbert
Posted by: chen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/11/12 08:17 AM

NOW toyama is not the point ,the brand Yangtz river is the most important
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/11/12 01:55 PM

Quote:
NOW toyama is not the point ,the brand Yangtz river is the most important


How many brands of pianos are being produced in factory?

There seems to be quite a few....

Norbert
Posted by: GoodS

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/11/12 06:18 PM

Hi, Chen, read your messages, and so the kawai uprights selling in Asia (k7,k8) are all made in yiching but not Japan? So kawai Japan has stopped producing uprights now?
Posted by: chen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/11/12 09:31 PM

sorry ,you r misunderstood ,K3-K8 the K serise were made in japan
Posted by: chen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/11/12 09:34 PM

8 brands
Posted by: turandot

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/12/12 11:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
All I can say is that the sound was unmistakingly Brodmann. We had too many, heard too many..

The recording standard was very high which certainly helped.

Fedorova also performs on many other pianos so yes, this was most likely a paid demo.

But very nice nonetheless.



Indeed very nice. But whether it was or it wasn't what it might have been or might not have been, we're probably not going to know conclusively.

I contacted Mateusz Zahora, the owner of the studio that did the photo shoot and the video, to ask him the specifics. Here are his comments....

Quote:
Audio was delivered by Anna Fedorova prior to making the video. She is the only one who can specify what particular piano was used to record those pieces. My studio have done video, editing and photos. (you can see them on our website http://studio.zahora.eu/en/galleries/people/anna-fedorova-pisarzowice-2 )

Brodmann as a company didn't pay anything at all. All this project was financed by Me, Anna Fedorova and Bohdan Szydzisz from pianoexpert.eu. This project was planned to promote Anna as a pianist. I knew that video and the photos will be quite attractive in advertisement but it was not our first target in this project. After releasing the video Polish distributor shoved it to brodmann CEO and he contacted us.

As for the photos. Brodmann and his reseller can not use them for advertising purposes, as they didn't ask for them.

So in short:
The video was not shot for
Brodmann, was not paid by
Brodmann, and we treated it from
purely artistic point of view.


When I mentioned to Mr. Zahora that it might be better for advertising purposes if the piano heard and the piano seen be the same, he replied....

Quote:


There could be an option. We can try to make another recording and then change the videos. but this is quite hard to do. There is no 212 Brodmann piano anywhere near. Anna is unavailable now since she has concert in Carnegie Hall soon and additionally we don't have budget to do a professional recording now.


Of course one could question wny an artist had enough confidence in a piano to highlight it in a video to promote her career, but not enough confidence to let it be heard, but that would probably be unfair for many reasons.

1) Doing the audio as well as the video in the church would have added to the expense considerably. I think we can safely assume that PianoExpert, the Polish distribution agent for Brodmann products, picked up the tab for placing the Brodmann 212 in the church.

2) As a touring artist with a very busy schedule, time may have been an issue

3) The Winter Wind Etude is a signature piece for Ms. Fedorova. Counting the new Brodmann promo which is prominent on her personal website, she now has three different videos of the piece on her site. She may have simply wanted to be heard through what she felt was her best performance.

4) Ms. Fedorova was probably not taking into account any piano authenticity issue because she wanted the video to promote her career, not to promote a piano brand. Both the audio and video are authentically hers. They just don't happen to match.

One could also debate whether Brodmann's prominent use of the clip on its own website is misleading, but it seems Brodmann was in the end licensing the use of a video that had already been made, and was not directly responsible for any mismatched misleading content. I suppose that Brodmann could inquire as to what brand and model of piano was in the audio, but as you mentioned, whatever it was sounded terrific. From Brodmann's point of view it probably seems best to leave well enough alone. grin
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/12/12 03:07 PM

Originally Posted By: turandot
One could also debate whether Brodmann's prominent use of the clip on its own website is misleading, but it seems Brodmann was in the end licensing the use of a video that had already been made, and was not directly responsible for any mismatched misleading content. I suppose that Brodmann could inquire as to what brand and model of piano was in the audio, but as you mentioned, whatever it was sounded terrific. From Brodmann's point of view it probably seems best to leave well enough alone. grin


I know Brodmann's management and I believe that, had they known the audio was not a Brodmann, they would likely not have used the clip.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/12/12 03:23 PM

It is unfortunate that the recording was not made on a Brodmann, yet piano was used in video.

Upon investigation from my side, this has since been confirmed by recording staff involved.

This also was part of their statement:

Quote:
The video was not shot for Brodmann, was not paid by Brodmann, and we treated it from purely artistic point of view.



At same time I stand by my opinion that the piano used did bear an uncanny resemblance to 7' Brodmann sound.

At least judging from recorded files....

Here's a 'real' one for comparison:



Norbert
Posted by: turandot

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/12/12 04:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen


I know Brodmann's management and I believe that, had they known the audio was not a Brodmann, they would likely not have used the clip.


Steve,

I have no reason to disagree with you. The arrangements under which this happened were unusual. It would be unfair to point a finger at the Brodmann company. Three parties were involved in the prouction. Mateusz Zahora had one objective. The artist had another. PianoExpert, the Brodmann distributor for Poland, had another. The Brodmann company was not involved in the production. They simply licensed the resulting video for use on their site.

Norbert,

I think "unfortunate" is the correct word. I agree with you.

Comparing the two videos, I don't hear the pianos as that close, but there are so many variables -- listener subjectivity, playing styles and levels, styles of music, and recording techniques to mention a few -- that a meaningful comparison is virtually impossible.

What strikes me about this situation is how the world has changed. Can you imagine Alicia de Larrocha or Wanda Landowska lying flat on the lid of a grand piano in a slinky dress to promote their careers as artists? grin

It's a tough brazen world we live in. Artists have to put a lot of obvious effort into carving out their niche.


But whatever it is exactly and whatever it might have been, it is a very compelling and convincing rendition of Opus 25, #11.
Posted by: GoodS

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/12/12 11:54 PM

Hi, Chen, thank you for clarification. So all kawai k8 parts, hammers, sound board, wires are made in Japan and the k8 was assembled and made in Japan, right?
Posted by: chen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/13/12 02:38 AM

yes you are right ! all parts made in japan and assembled and made in Japan
Posted by: jrcallan

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/13/12 05:12 AM

Isn't the current state of information that we don't know what piano was pre-recorded?

The tone of the discussion seems to have concluded that it was not a Brodmann. How so?
Posted by: GoodS

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/13/12 09:23 AM

Hi, Chen, that means your confirmation indicates all kawai k8 selling in Japan, Singapore, hong kong etc and their parts are made and assembled in Japan. Good to hear this.

By the way, sometimes, found the pressurized wool of the hammers on the newer k8 is somehow a bit "loose"... Any such observation?
Posted by: turandot

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/13/12 09:39 AM

Originally Posted By: jrcallan
Isn't the current state of information that we don't know what piano was pre-recorded?

The tone of the discussion seems to have concluded that it was not a Brodmann. How so?


I don't think it's the tone. Maybe I'm biased, but I think the tone has been pretty objective. It's really a question of facts.

All available facts indicate that the piano on the pre-recorded audio was not made on a Brodmann. There is no indication that it was a Brodmann. These facts would include some comments from project staff on the scene -- comments that were only alluded to here.

However, there is no clear evidence as to what piano was actually being played in the audio clip, so in that sense the facts are inconclusive. As the studio owner put it, only the artist could say with certainty.

What's important to keep in mind is that there is absolutely no indication that the Brodmann company attempted to rig a promotional vidoe in its favor by manipulating the sound. It comes down to a decision by the artist to use an audio sample she already had in her possession and have it synched to the video she was about to make. That decision could have been for any number of reasons -- available time, available budget, an assessment of the acoustic environment of the church, etc. A video and still shoot of the type and quality of this promo involves a lot of concerns that are not musical. Those would include camera angles, lighting, costume, props, and even makeup. In the midst of all those concerns, it might have been difficult to produce the best possible end-to-end running performance of the music.

There is no indication that the artist felt that a Brodmann piano was insufficient to the task. If she had any negative predisposition toward Brodmann pianos, I doubt she would have agreed to the terms of the project.



Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/13/12 11:45 AM

While Tur's above comments are more than fair and seem to reflect [part of..] the truth, as Brodmann dealer I am disappointed that the makers' name was tangled up in such scenario.

IMHO it doesn't do anybody any good, including the artist, to publish something that "isn't"

It undermines the trust, and to some degree the "joy" people have when watching such videos.

God knows, next time it shows a Steinway but was actually recorded on a Brodmann....

Norbert cry wink
Posted by: chen

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/13/12 10:13 PM

yes ,from the surface into the core,will more tight and tight ,surface will let you feel soft or loose ,core is very tight
Posted by: turandot

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/14/12 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
While Tur's above comments are more than fair and seem to reflect [part of..] the truth, as Brodmann dealer I am disappointed that the makers' name was tangled up in such scenario.



Norbeert,

Sorry to read that you're down in the dumps.

Well yeah,. "More than fair" is probably accurate, and "tangled up" is a good choice of terms...like when you're walking down the straight and narrow and some creeping ivy grows out of nowhere to trip you up. grin But what are you going to do? The only way to get past the known facts [the truth in part] is to ......

1) follor the money

2) apply the Nixon Doctrine Acid-Test investigating what X, Y, and Z knew and when they knew it

Maybe you could hire Schwammerl to snif the trail and do some disntangling, but he's probably feeing disillusioned and world-weary too. Or you could write a fervent fan letter to Fedorova telling her how much you loved that performance and asking what piano it was actually played on.

Another more serious thought would be to personally encourage the Brodmann people to pull the promo from their site. You've been representing them since early on and you might have some sway. If they pulled it, would that lift your spirits?
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/15/12 03:27 AM

Tur:

Brodmann was tangled up in this without any of their own knowledge or fault. Still, this is not a good situation reflected by the word "disappointed"

These days we're only selling few Brodmanns here and there.
The pianos are not the easiest ones to get and we never have enough stock for people breaking down the door.
The ones we do move simply sell by musical appeal and price point.
This is where the pianos remain [in my honest opinion..] one of the most attractive options on market.
At no time has anybody ever bought a Brodmann [ at least from us and to best of my knowledge..] because of some odd YouTube video. Be that one real - or 'not'
If anybody actually has and then found out piano sounds and performs entirely different at home, glad to refund any dollar or cent.
Office tel 604-951-8642

Norbert smile
Posted by: Rickster

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/15/12 08:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
If anybody actually has and then found out piano sounds and performs entirely different at home, glad to refund any dollar or cent.
Office tel 604-951-8642

Norbert smile

I thought there was a sign in your store that said “All sales final”? smile

Just kidding, Norbert.

Rick
Posted by: turandot

Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? - 11/15/12 09:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
Tur:

Brodmann was tangled up in this without any of their own knowledge or fault. Still, this is not a good situation reflected by the word "disappointed"
Norbert smile


Even if the entanglement is innocent and the Brodmann company made the decision to publicize the video because important information was withheld from them by their own Polish distributor, I would think that you might encourage the Brodmann company to pull the video and thereby free themselves from the entanglement. Are you saying that you would not encourage that? I don't think it should be a question of how many Brodmanns you sell, how difficult it is to get stock, how important the brand is now to your business model, or how appealing the pianos are. The appeal of the insturments at their price point is undeniable IMO, but as usual, it's the people who get in the way.

So, to make it simple, would you or would you not encourage the Brodmann company to pull the video?



Originally Posted By: Norbert
At no time has anybody ever bought a Brodmann [ at least from us and to best of my knowledge..] because of some odd YouTube video. Be that one real - or 'not'


Now it's "some odd Youbtbue video" unlikely to influence anyone, but here is the way you deposited it into this thread...

Originally Posted By: Norbert

Here's one of your company's other finest: almost fainted when I found recently same model in my Alma Mater, Erlangen Germany...



Norbert smile