Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos

Posted by: VIP Piano Club

Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 11/24/12 02:24 AM

I've had a chance to meet Del Fandrich who is the piano technician they hired; I'm not a tech and have never played on the newer models. Has anyone played on these upgraded grands; and if you have, what is your opinion?
-Ryan
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 11/24/12 09:17 AM

Welcome to the Piano Forum Ryan.

Del is somewhat of a regular here. He and others, including myself, are familiar with his work for YC over the past few years and have posted a great deal about them.

One way you could "catch up" is by 8using the Users List (top of this screen) to find Del, and then click on View Posts' A significant percentage of threads Del participates in include info and opinions on the new YC designs.

From my experience the new designs are a significant improbement to entry-level and mid-range quality pianos. In particular, the tone he is able to get from smaller grands is quite remarkable.
Posted by: gnuboi

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 11/25/12 11:24 PM

I tried the little Weber W150 and W114. They both sounded really nice and smooth. There were taller uprights near the W114 and I didn't like their tones as much. The next best qualities on these pianos were the prices! smile
Posted by: Cy Shuster, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 11/26/12 09:44 AM

The new Young Chang 4'11" has amazing clarity and sustain for such a small piano. I went to Del's all-day seminar at the PTG 2012 convention in Seattle, and he has done extensive spectrum analysis of alternate bass string and soundboard designs. These are Real World measurements, not just whether a piano has "magic" or "sparkle".

--Cy--
Posted by: Del

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 11/28/12 01:08 PM

Originally Posted By: gnuboi
I tried the little Weber W150 and W114. They both sounded really nice and smooth. There were taller uprights near the W114 and I didn't like their tones as much.

The taller pianos were probably the older designs. Most of the larger verticals have either just recently entered production or are about ready to. I should be signing off on the last of the new designs next month.

For the first time since this project began all of the pianos -- grands and verticals -- on display at the NAMM show (this coming January) will have the new design package. There will undoubtedly be some further refinement over the next few months/years but the heavy work is pretty much done.


Quote:
The next best qualities on these pianos were the prices! smile

That, of course, has been the biggest challenge. It is relatively easy to come up with good acoustical performance if production cost is no object. It becomes considerably more difficult when you are designing and building to a specific -- and low -- price point.

ddf
Posted by: VIP Piano Club

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/16/13 03:58 AM

Steve,

My apologies for not getting back to you sooner. I am going to update my settings so I get notifications via email when there are replies to a post. Thank you for the feedback. After conversing with Del in person I could tell he deeply cares about the quality of his designs, and it is fantastic to hear that the actual production is bearing fruit to the value of his expertise.
-Ryan
Posted by: VIP Piano Club

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/16/13 04:09 AM

Cy, it is a fantastic point you make regarding the difference between the psychological aspect of the "whim of the moment" experience someone may think they are feeling when the sales representative points out that "magical" moment you are referring to, in contrast to the mathematical "irrefutable" angle. In many years to come, if indeed Del's measurements become more well known, Young Chang's sales representatives will have consistent selling point. Del is very humble in my opinion; and it may take those like you who understand his findings to really hit the point home.
-Ryan
Posted by: VIP Piano Club

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/16/13 04:14 AM

Del,
It is wonderful to see you here! I appreciated your hospitality when you came to the Portland area. And I can see you really are impacting the piano industry; your years of hard work are paying off. Congrats!
-Ryan
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/16/13 10:38 AM

To have any meaningful context to quantitative "data" regarding good piano tone-you first need to define "good" in the terms you are measuring. I have never met a piano purchaser who "measures" piano tone quality with any sort of tool. I have also never heard of any one producing a credible technical definition of good piano tone and touch beyond my own basic efforts to flesh out my theory of Musical Intelligible Sound.

I wish YC and Del great success with their endeavor and Del is always an interesting and experienced voice regarding piano technology. I hope to go play the new YC's soon.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/16/13 05:54 PM

Quote:
I have also never heard of any one producing a credible technical definition of good piano tone and touch beyond my own basic efforts to flesh out my theory of Musical Intelligible Sound.


That's right - there are no 'technical' definitions.

But there *musical ones* - here's one:

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/e8ffb87c#/e8ffb87c/276

Norbert

Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/16/13 06:01 PM

When it comes to pianos, a good sound is in the ear of the beholder and a good touch is in the hand of the player. Taste and preference supersedes all else.

Nothing More - Nothing Less
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/16/13 11:46 PM

I do not subscribe to the "random taste" theory of how the universe works.

Music is a language of emotional information. All humans share the same emotions. All human cultures use musical elements to communicate with each other about emotional intent. Good tone simply does this task better than bad tone and that is how you qualitatively differentiate between them. Good piano touch allows a pianist to do this task regularly and for a significant duration without struggle.

Tone quality is rooted in vocal practice. Touch is rooted in ergonometrics.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/17/13 02:06 AM

Culture.

We forget "culture"

Nobody can get Flamenco sound quite like the Spanish do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-CjLfu9zCk

Western sound has also grown over hundreds of years.

Some capture sound the way they see fit or "design" things

The real McCoys do it without effort - or pretense.

They "have" for very long time...

Worth thinking.

Norbert
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/17/13 06:31 PM

Norbert,
The culture of piano music may have originated in europe-but like most great ideas-people all over the world want to use it. I have a historical reductionist axiom that what defines western culture as "Western"-is that any good idea from anywhere is incorporated/borrowed/stolen into the culture.

The elements that allow maximum musical expression can be defined with an engineering framework. I have done that with pianos, just not published it yet. The fundamental assumption embodied is that tone/touch is not a random taste issue.

Linguistics has proven that all spoken languages can be reduced to a set number of sound elements that are universal to all known languages. This means that humans are physically hardwired for intellectually intelligible sound. This is the reason algorithms can be constructed to synthesis speech.

Since music is emotional language-the expressive elements are also hardwired. Thus a model of piano quality can be constructed and protocols for design elements tested.

I hope you don't find this pretentious of me. I do sometimes find your double spaced posts "full of hot air" at times.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/17/13 06:41 PM

It will be a truly perfect world when the perfect piano tone, and the perfect piano touch, are codified and all pianos will conform to strict parameters.

Ah yes, perfect piano prejudice will permeate the planet.

Perfection!
Posted by: Jonathan Alford

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/17/13 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT

The elements that allow maximum musical expression can be defined with an engineering framework. I have done that with pianos, just not published it yet. The fundamental assumption embodied is that tone/touch is not a random taste issue.

Linguistics has proven that all spoken languages can be reduced to a set number of sound elements that are universal to all known languages. This means that humans are physically hardwired for intellectually intelligible sound. This is the reason algorithms can be constructed to synthesis speech.

Since music is emotional language-the expressive elements are also hardwired. Thus a model of piano quality can be constructed and protocols for design elements tested.


Interesting - these set number of sound elements are used when a "computer" is speaking to us - as in automated phone calls / automated responses on the phone. My ears can tell the difference between a computer and a real person.

Jonathan
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/17/13 07:30 PM

Yes, the computer algorithms cut a lot of corners to save processing speed-and that produces the recognizable "computer voice".

Human ears can be incredibly sensitive to some tonal elements. I am 60YO and if I meet someone on the street I haven't seen for 30 years I will almost certainly not recognize them-until they speak-then I remember their voice.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/18/13 01:02 AM

Quote:
Since music is emotional language-the expressive elements are also hardwired. Thus a model of piano quality can be constructed and protocols for design elements tested.



Perhaps you can give us an example of this?

Norbert
Posted by: ahhsmurf

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/18/13 02:47 AM

All humans share the same emotions.
Posted by: patH

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/18/13 06:59 AM

Quote:
All humans share the same emotions.
To the two posters who said this: Can you back this statement up?
I don't have a degree in psychology, but I doubt that a sociopath has the same emotions as a philantropist.
Posted by: BoseEric

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/18/13 07:41 AM

Quote:
When it comes to pianos, a good sound is in the ear of the beholder and a good touch is in the hand of the player. Taste and preference supersedes all else.


This would result in a free-for-all! It's the skilled piano technician who is the guardian of standards in piano tone and touch. It is his or her job to educate his or her ear to what is correct and desirable and then learn to re-create those standards on pianos he or she works on.

Learning to tune is easy compared to learning what a piano should sound like and then being able to re-create that standard on the instrument at hand.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/18/13 08:47 AM

Eric - I was speaking from the viewpoint of the pianist, not from the tech/rebuilder.

After all, it is the buyer whose preference is the most important. Without the pianst, there would be no need to build the piano.
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/18/13 10:44 AM

Norbert,
Come here my pianos. That is the most convincing way to make my point.
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/18/13 10:46 AM

Sociopathy is a category of illness. It is define by the lack of normal emotions.
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/18/13 10:49 AM

Eric is right on,
This is why great tone-regulators have music in their background. Some formally trained some self-taught.

Marty, do you teach your students about tone color when playing? If you do you ARE establishing standards to piano tone and touch.
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/18/13 11:41 AM

Marty,
In the case of your "first chicken or first egg" post-the piano came first! (Snare drum, rim shot! Kapow!!)
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/18/13 12:11 PM

Quote:
Norbert,
Come here my pianos. That is the most convincing way to make my point.


You misunderstood me - read my post again: I wasn't questioning your pianos.

Presumably your understanding of tone or "sound ideal" is similar to what has prevailed in the Western world for long time.

In fact, a description by yourself would be nice to have.

Norbert
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/18/13 12:31 PM

Mr. McMorrow,

In my teaching, I am not establishing "standards to piano tone." I am teaching a student the methods of advanced technique to allow the student to draw from the color pallete available within an instrument. But first, the instrument must be able to respond in a way that variations of tonal color are available. Unfortunately, many brands of piano are very limited in their response.

That is why trying to 'define and codify' the tone and touch is a futile search. The experience of the player has already defined what is perfect for them. For a builder, or re-builder, to assume the role of arbiter of what is proper, is regressive in approach. It will always be the choice of the player/owner/musician to decide exactly what is best for themselves. To not have the choice, by only producing identical pianos with no variation in response, is the demise of musicianship. When one is so focused on making the mechanics of an instrument, including tonality, so lacking in variation, the concept of musicianship is lost. That would be a catastrophe.

However, all this is moot. Now that I have learned that pianos are hatched, and not built, it becomes futile to contemplate.
Posted by: Plowboy

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/18/13 12:36 PM

A few months ago while auditioning pianos, I tried a Weber 5' of Del's design. It had a very nice tone, the bass in particular. The particular one I played had a very clunky action, however, so I gave it a pass. Unfortunately there was not another of the same model to try out. I'm sure that one was an anomaly.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/18/13 12:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
Originally Posted By: McMorrow
Norbert,
Come here my pianos. That is the most convincing way to make my point.

You misunderstood me - read my post again: I wasn't questioning your pianos.

Presumably your understanding of tone or "sound ideal" is similar to what has prevailed in the Western world for long time.

In fact, a description by yourself would be nice to have.

Norbert,

Comprehension by Mr. McMorrow is a continuing problem. It is the same with expressing himself. Why would he summon all of his pianos around himself? It seems that he is trying to convince his pianos of his own point. Very confusing, indeed.

I believe that this very type of summons was used in "Hansel & Gretel."
Posted by: patH

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/19/13 09:59 AM

One measure of quality that has not been mentioned on this thread yet is: How well was the piano crafted?
Meaning: How well does a piano keep its initial settings after being delivered and used?

If we have two pianos, and both are used equally often in equivalent environments; and after a few weeks, the first piano still sounds and plays like on its first day, while the other starts having imprecise action, keys that get stuck, pedal action that feels like treading a sponge and is going out of tune, then the quality of the first piano is superior by far. And what the initial settings were is irrelevant.

This observation deserves to be on this thread; because last year at the music fair in Frankfurt/Germany, I played on an Albert Weber. After only a few measures of a Schubert Impromptu, two keys started to hang. Young Chang might as well have put a sign over their stand, saying: "We are not interested in customers. Get lost."
I had read beforehand that Young Chang had been taken over by Hyundai, and suspected that Hyundai wasn't interested in selling pianos. But if a new line of Weber pianos is being introduced, then maybe I was wrong.
Posted by: Del

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/20/13 02:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
To have any meaningful context to quantitative "data" regarding good piano tone-you first need to define "good" in the terms you are measuring. I have never met a piano purchaser who "measures" piano tone quality with any sort of tool. I have also never heard of any one producing a credible technical definition of good piano tone and touch beyond my own basic efforts to flesh out my theory of Musical Intelligible Sound.

I wish YC and Del great success with their endeavor and Del is always an interesting and experienced voice regarding piano technology. I hope to go play the new YC's soon.

I have made no effort to define a grand unifying theory of piano tone or sound. To do so would probably end up being so specifically biased toward the likes and dislikes of the individual formulating the theory as to be useless to anyone else.

The tests, and the data Cy was referring to were intended to demonstrate one specific aspect of piano tone performance: the sound envelope produced by the lowest notes of a very short piano. These kinds of tests are useful to demonstrate the cause and effect relationships between otherwise identical pianos in which just one or two things are changed. In this case it was more of a “before and after” comparison. I used them to demonstrate that the sound envelope produced by pianos with the new bridge and soundboard designs contained measurable sound energy at the fundamental pitch of the waveform (27.5 Hz) and at the lowest harmonics while the waveform of a piano of the same length but with the previous, more traditional soundboard and bridge design did not.

This information tells me in visual and measurable terms what progress has been made and at least gives hints about what remains possible. With some practice at reading and analyzing these kinds of measurements subsequent evolutionary steps become clear.

For this information to be useful it is not necessary to define “good” although it will probably be generally conceded that a sound envelope that contains at least some energy at the intended pitch of the note being played is probably preferable to one that does not. That, at least, was one of my goals.

ddf
Posted by: shaolin95

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/20/13 03:31 PM

Well, let me take the opportunity to say THANKS as I believe you helped design my first Baby Grand! smile
Many of the explanations here go above my head..but I like what I hear at home. smile
Posted by: kapelli

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/20/13 07:15 PM

Buy, do you like the increadibly bright sound of these cheap pianos? There's a lot of Feurich and other China manufacturers recording on youtube and...
Sorry... for me it sounds like playing on glasses, not on piano...

This is from YT recordings, and recordings from Hailun website (which are in very high quality) - it just doesn't sound like piano. Yes, I like deep, warm and little heavy european piano sound and this asian-made glass sounding piano object aren't convincing me at all.

I appreciate all the knowledge they implement, that they hire experienced piano makers from Europe and US factories, but...
You just cannot jump few things...

Perhaps, when comparing cheap Kawai/Yamaha to cheap YC/Hailun and their submarks there is a question which one to chose, but... there's something I don't like about them.

Maybe, even having eperienced people, to achieve the sound of Steinway, Bosendorfer etc. is not so easy within few years of experience and even more impossible within the final product costs.
All I would like to have, would be these china pianos having deep and heavy and soft sound... but most probably unless they will start to cost the 70% of new top-end grands instead of 15% this thing will be never achieved.

Unfortunately, Poland is still to poor country and having a used grand for 5k USD is a luxury (unless someone is not professional pianist/teacher who needs grand).

Eventually, I am very happy that many people can buy new chep pianos build of good quality. I PERSONALLY just don't like the sound of them and I would never buy Hailun due to it's sound. It's horrible for me - based on their website recordings!
Just listen to them - I needed to switch it of, really.

Instead I'd buy a good grand... with better sound to my ear.
But if you are happy - I'm glad, really.

And - we still need to know that the price is made due to something. Labor is one factor, but there are dozens of others. But if the target people are happy so I am happy to.

One like blondes, other brunetes smile
Posted by: shaolin95

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/20/13 07:48 PM

Have you tried one yourself in person and not just some internet samples? You do realize how many variables come into play..just like someone comparing images taken under different conditions and with differently calibrated monitors.
I am a beginner pianist but I was born in a musical family. Started playing guitar at 7. So I have a well developed ear and I reviewed then worked for a speaker company so I can feel confident in my ability to tell what is good sound and what is not...well, aside from the fact we all dont have the same hearing nor taste.
So back to your comment...my piano is anything but bright and harsh. In fact, it makes my Hamilton Baldwin upright almost sound "glassy" now in comparison. It gives me a range of dynamics I never had with my upright which is an oldie but still goodie.
So, I do like the sound a lot and suggest you give some of these new ones a try in person before making a call on their performance.
Regards
Posted by: Furtwangler

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/20/13 08:40 PM

Originally Posted By: kapelli
Buy, do you like the increadibly bright sound of these cheap pianos? There's a lot of Feurich and other China manufacturers recording on youtube and...
Sorry... for me it sounds like playing on glasses, not on piano...

This is from YT recordings, and recordings from Hailun website (which are in very high quality) - it just doesn't sound like piano. Yes, I like deep, warm and little heavy european piano sound and this asian-made glass sounding piano object aren't convincing me at all.

I appreciate all the knowledge they implement, that they hire experienced piano makers from Europe and US factories, but...
You just cannot jump few things...

Perhaps, when comparing cheap Kawai/Yamaha to cheap YC/Hailun and their submarks there is a question which one to chose, but... there's something I don't like about them.

Maybe, even having eperienced people, to achieve the sound of Steinway, Bosendorfer etc. is not so easy within few years of experience and even more impossible within the final product costs.
All I would like to have, would be these china pianos having deep and heavy and soft sound... but most probably unless they will start to cost the 70% of new top-end grands instead of 15% this thing will be never achieved.

Unfortunately, Poland is still to poor country and having a used grand for 5k USD is a luxury (unless someone is not professional pianist/teacher who needs grand).

Eventually, I am very happy that many people can buy new chep pianos build of good quality. I PERSONALLY just don't like the sound of them and I would never buy Hailun due to it's sound. It's horrible for me - based on their website recordings!
Just listen to them - I needed to switch it of, really.

Instead I'd buy a good grand... with better sound to my ear.
But if you are happy - I'm glad, really.

And - we still need to know that the price is made due to something. Labor is one factor, but there are dozens of others. But if the target people are happy so I am happy to.

One like blondes, other brunetes smile




Oh - you mean like these lovely sounding European pianos with that deep, warm sound you love so much:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFDfTGY5W5Q

or this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlWynRVre_M

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYTVmZ29aZE

Lovely. Just lovely.
Posted by: shaolin95

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/20/13 08:46 PM

I got nothing else to say to you tired
Posted by: Mark VC

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/20/13 09:06 PM

Wise, Shaolin. Something about message boards in general, and certainly not just this one, seems to bring out sarcasm. Is it the safety of knowing the other person is not physically present, that allows normally gracious, friendly people to engage in snark?
Posted by: shaolin95

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/20/13 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark VC
Wise, Shaolin. Something about message boards in general, and certainly not just this one, seems to bring out sarcasm. Is it the safety of knowing the other person is not physically present, that allows normally gracious, friendly people to engage in snark?

Indeed amigo but I have been around long enough to detect "those" types and my time is more valuable than that smile
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/22/13 12:28 AM

Del,
I think my experience working on the concert stage preparing pianos for performers has helped to broaden my sense of what good and bad tone/touch is all about beyond any personal absolutes. I certainly have many happy customers who are very serious musicians, performers, and teachers. Many of these customers trust me implicitly to shape the performance characteristics of their pianos based on their experience with my past work.

I think it is obvious whenever any technical decision is made regarding using a service or design detail that someones taste is involved. The whole endeavor of servicing, designing or building a piano is rooted in esthetic musical and ergonometric considerations.

That is why my "Musically Intelligible Sound" model is needed. I have certainly found it useful in consistently producing fine pianos. My work has shown that the successful tonal archetypes share many significant characteristics and the touch parameters are even somewhat narrower.
Posted by: JohnSprung

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/22/13 05:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
.... and the touch parameters are even somewhat narrower.


That's interesting. I'm by no means a good player, and I notice that the difference in touch between pianos can be a big problem. I suck much worse than usual for the first few hours playing a piano I'm not accustomed to. It's just the difference, not the quality. It happens with much better pianos than mine.
Posted by: shaolin95

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/22/13 09:04 AM

Indeed the touch is something that can throw me off all the time. It happened a lot when going to take my lessons from practicing on my upright then going to the grand to take lessons.
It should be easier now that I got a Baby G too.
I am thinking if this is like skating when you notice the touch more as you get more experienced...
Like when I began ice skating...I couldnt tell the difference between sharp skates or dull ones or even the ice surface..but after getting much more experienced..I could tell right away if something was wrong with my edges or the ice surface as it felt totally different.
So as you can imagine..Recital day is a frustrating day because you have no warm up time, you sit there and start playing on a piano that feels totally different from what yours does and somehow need to adjust on the fly.
That was one of the reasons I moved to a Grand..besides it being my long time dream of course smile
Posted by: Mark VC

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/22/13 01:57 PM

When are the new YC's likely to be on floors in stores? After all this discussion I'm really interested to try one!
Posted by: Del

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/22/13 03:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark VC
When are the new YC's likely to be on floors in stores? After all this discussion I'm really interested to try one!

The 150 grands have been available in some stores for a year or so. As has the smaller 114 vertical. The problem is that dealers tend to want to clear old inventory before ordering in new product.

I had a new 157 grand in my classroom at WestPAC and there was another on display -- along with a new 185 -- in YC/Weber's exhibit. There was also a 122 vertical in the exhibit space. I doubt that either the new 175 grand or the new 131 upright will be available for another six to twelve months (though that is just a guess on my part).

I'm told that all of YCNA's future orders will be for the new designs. The old designs are still available for the Chinese market and will probably continue to be built until all of the parts and materials inventory have been used up.

The Chinese market is rapidly becoming more sophisticated so I assume the transition will take place there as quickly as is practical.

ddf
Posted by: shaolin95

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/22/13 03:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Del
Originally Posted By: Mark VC
When are the new YC's likely to be on floors in stores? After all this discussion I'm really interested to try one!

The 150 grands have been available in some stores for a year or so. As has the smaller 114 vertical. The problem is that dealers tend to want to clear old inventory before ordering in new product.

I had a new 157 grand in my classroom at WestPAC and there was another on display -- along with a new 185 -- in YC/Weber's exhibit. There was also a 122 vertical in the exhibit space. I doubt that either the new 175 grand or the new 131 upright will be available for another six to twelve months (though that is just a guess on my part).

I'm told that all of YCNA's future orders will be for the new designs. The old designs are still available for the Chinese market and will probably continue to be built until all of the parts and materials inventory have been used up.

The Chinese market is rapidly becoming more sophisticated so I assume the transition will take place there as quickly as is practical.

ddf

IIRC my local stores where I got the 150 had all the bigger models too so I was lucky the sell lots of pianos so they did not have any older version to push me to buy those smile
Posted by: JohnSprung

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/22/13 06:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Del
The 150 grands have been available in some stores for a year or so. As has the smaller 114 vertical.


Del, can you give us an overview table of all the new designs, both YC and Weber (are there others)? Make, Model, Estimated avaliability date, First serial number.... Is there anything bigger than the 185 in the works?
Posted by: Del

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/22/13 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: JohnSprung
Originally Posted By: Del
The 150 grands have been available in some stores for a year or so. As has the smaller 114 vertical.


Del, can you give us an overview table of all the new designs, both YC and Weber (are there others)? Make, Model, Estimated avaliability date, First serial number.... Is there anything bigger than the 185 in the works?

Not really. My work has been focused on design and is now transitioning more toward quality control and production processes. I pay little attention to marketing efforts.

The easiest way to tell the new designs from the old is to look at the bass bridges. None of the new designs utilize bass bridge cantilevers.

The entire product line has been redesigned. This includes the 208 (6' 10"), 228 (7' 6") and 275 (9') grands.

ddf
Posted by: j&j

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/22/13 10:32 PM

Somewhat off topic, but Del, I love your picture in the Young Chang ad and a very nice short article about your design work for YC in the latest issue of MMR.

Congratulations!
Posted by: R_B

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/24/13 08:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Yes, the computer algorithms cut a lot of corners to save processing speed-and that produces the recognizable "computer voice".

Human ears can be incredibly sensitive to some tonal elements. I am 60YO and if I meet someone on the street I haven't seen for 30 years I will almost certainly not recognize them-until they speak-then I remember their voice.


This is at least partly true of other animals.
I can walk up to a horse I haven't seen in a few years, he/she is unlikely to "recognize" me by sight, or even by smell.
(most of us offer a bare hand for a horse to sniff as part of the greeting)
Once I say, "Hi" the whole facial expression changes and not in the same sort of way that a horse that I haven't met before reacts.

{NOT a horse whisperer, but I like 'em and they seem to get along with me (-: }
Posted by: JohnSprung

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/25/13 05:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Del
I pay little attention to marketing efforts.


OK, fair enough. Perhaps YC should get a marketing person here on PW.

I'll be interested in trying that 275 when it's available, not that I'm really in the market (The old Knabe 9 ft. is fine for me). Given the great results that your design ideas produce in small grands, I'm eager to see what happens when they're applied at the full 9 ft. level.

When and how much no doubt are questions for a marketing type.
Posted by: Del

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/26/13 07:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I think my experience working on the concert stage preparing pianos for performers has helped to broaden my sense of what good and bad tone/touch is all about beyond any personal absolutes. I certainly have many happy customers who are very serious musicians, performers, and teachers. Many of these customers trust me implicitly to shape the performance characteristics of their pianos based on their experience with my past work.

I think it is obvious whenever any technical decision is made regarding using a service or design detail that someones taste is involved. The whole endeavor of servicing, designing or building a piano is rooted in esthetic musical and ergonometric considerations.

That is why my "Musically Intelligible Sound" model is needed. I have certainly found it useful in consistently producing fine pianos. My work has shown that the successful tonal archetypes share many significant characteristics and the touch parameters are even somewhat narrower.

I agree that experience on the concert stage working with outstanding performers is useful. It certainly taught me the value of listening for, and identifying, the sometimes—but sometimes not— subtle timbral differences among different pianos that can make a pianist love one instrument and completely reject another while another equally skilled pianist will come along and reverse the selection. Given that I’m not sure I agree that these differences are always that narrow.

Although he was 88 years old when I first met him and his hearing was not what it once had been, Arthur Rubinstein had very definite ideas about how he wanted his piano voiced and that was quite different from the preferences of, say, Alicia de Larrocha. Even though both were broadly viewed as “classical” pianists the way they approached the piano was quite different. And, although I don’t remember specifically discussing it at the time, I doubt either of them would have thought much of Vladimir Horowitz’s piano. Few people besides Horowitz himself did yet he liked what he liked and I wasn’t about to argue with him about it.

Although Oscar Peterson and Paul Badura-Skoda performed on the same Bösendorfer Imperial in the same hall about a week apart their opinions about how the piano should sound were quite different. Admittedly, Peterson and Badura-Skoda represented two extremes of the musical spectrum—jazz vs. classical—but I think we have to be able to produce pianos that appeal to each even though in the process one instrument might end up not being suitable for both.

Even within the same overall genre, musical taste—and with it the demands on the piano—can vary considerably. Though both were broadly categorized as “jazz” pianists the sound and feel that Dave Brubeck looked for in his piano was enough different from what Bill Evans was after that I doubt they ever would have willingly selected the same performance instrument. Brubeck ended up playing a Baldwin SD-10 while Evans just loved a certain Steinway D that some pianists wrote off as “too weak.” It wasn’t really weak but the hammers had not been overly lacquered as was becoming common at the time. Brubeck wanted a sharp, almost percussive attack while Evans was much more interested in a controllable and warm pianissimo—he expected his audience to shut up and listen—than in the sharper, more percussive sound of the Baldwin.

Since I have no idea what your “Musically Intelligible Sound” model is would you mind explaining?

ddf
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/26/13 07:47 PM

I have proven that if you adopt the proper tone regulation protocols you can produce a fine piano that most pianist would find perfectly suitable-from all genres of music. Yes, each pianist has preferences, and they can vary with their mood, repertoire, etc, etc,. But it is not "anything goes" as far as tone and touch standards.

Great piano tone must include a wide dynamic range, volume balance across the compass, projection of melody easily achieved in all registers, vowel tone color change with dynamics, minimized hammer/action noise, and this should all be coupled to an action that communicates to the pianist how fast and where the hammer is and when the key is ready to be played again. Same control issues apply with the pedals.

If you would have taken the numerous opportunities you have had in the past to attend my classes at PTG you would be more aware of the state of the art I have established. Specifically my class titled; "Tone is Not For Tasting". I have been to many of your classes Del. I have also exhibited pianos at PTG events that exhibit what I am talking about. I don't think you ever took the time to try one of my pianos out. I also can't recall the last time you exhibited a piano that you were responsible for the musicality of.
Posted by: Del

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/26/13 09:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
If you would have taken the numerous opportunities you have had in the past to attend my classes at PTG you would be more aware of the state of the art I have established. Specifically my class titled; "Tone is Not For Tasting".

Actually, I've been in several. You must not have noticed.



Quote:
I have been to many of your classes Del.

You have? Many?



Quote:
I have also exhibited pianos at PTG events that exhibit what I am talking about. I don't think you ever took the time to try one of my pianos out. I also can't recall the last time you exhibited a piano that you were responsible for the musicality of.

Yes, I've seen several pianos you've had on exhibit dating back to the last time the annual convention was held in Portland.

ddf
Posted by: Jeff Clef

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/26/13 10:55 PM

"...while Evans was much more interested in a controllable and warm pianissimo—-- he expected his audience to shut up and listen—-- than in the sharper, more percussive sound of the Baldwin..."

And Bill Evans was right, too. (The best public speakers know this trick of getting the audience to lean forward in their seats, to catch those words that trickle down to triple-piano --- then the pause, a few rests of pregnant silence ---then they thunder forth with a fortissimo. It's almost orgiastic.)

Not that I feel a need to argue with Dave Brubeck about how he liked his Baldwin voiced...

I suppose that if you were able to keep Rubinstein, De Laroccha, Peterson, Horowitz, Badura-Skoda, Brubeck and Evans all satisfied, then I don't need to be pointing these things out. But if you were thinking of writing a book about "How the Sound Gets Into the Piano and Gets Out Again", you could furnish it with some nice case histories. Book to be accompanied by a CD and a DVD.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/26/13 11:21 PM

Quote:
I suppose that if you were able to keep Rubinstein, De Laroccha, Peterson, Horowitz, Badura-Skoda, Brubeck and Evans all satisfied, then I don't need to be pointing these things out.


Thinking the main thing is to get good ratings and keep Larry Fine happy with all the new piano designs under discussion..

Norbert wink
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/27/13 12:45 AM

If I am reading your posts correctly; you said you were unaware of my concept of Musically Intelligible Sound theoretical framework. My classes usually include a synopsis at least. I also don't recall you attending any of my classes for many years. You are kind of hard not to notice Del.
Posted by: Del

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/27/13 12:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
If I am reading your posts correctly; you said you were unaware of my concept of Musically Intelligible Sound theoretical framework. My classes usually include a synopsis at least. I also don't recall you attending any of my classes for many years. You are kind of hard not to notice Del.

It wasn't that long ago that you did a class at the Puget Sound chapter meeting. I didn't get to the event you held recently at your shop because I was in China at the time -- a rather long commute.

At conferences and conventions it is difficult to get to many of the classes I would like to attend because I generally have my own teaching schedule and other duties. Please don't take my absence personally; I'm there when I can be there. I often don't agree with you but I always find your presentations interesting and stimulating.

ddf
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/28/13 11:24 AM

Del,
I haven't done a program for Puget Sound Chapter in at least 15 years. My Musically Intelligent Sound concept dates back to 1995.

A client of mine is Julliard graduate who studied with Rhosinna Levine, she also spent some time listening to Leonard Bernstein discuss music. He talked about framing a similar analysis structure for tone as mine according to her.
Posted by: Del

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/28/13 01:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Del,
I haven't done a program for Puget Sound Chapter in at least 15 years. My Musically Intelligent Sound concept dates back to 1995.

A client of mine is Julliard graduate who studied with Rhosinna Levine, she also spent some time listening to Leonard Bernstein discuss music. He talked about framing a similar analysis structure for tone as mine according to her.

Time flies. Well then it must have been at a regional but I know I've sat in on at least one of your classes more recently than that. Although I've been to nearly all of the regionals over the past several decades I don't remember you're being around for most of them. But, as I said, I am often teaching and or have other duties and/or business contacts to make; I don't get to attend all that many classes any longer.

Do you have any more presentations scheduled in which you discuss your tuned aliquot system? If so, when and where?

ddf
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/28/13 10:34 PM

The creative class of people have a social convention that honors inventors with the rights to name their inventions. Do you not recognize that?
Posted by: Del

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/29/13 08:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
The creative class of people have a social convention that honors inventors with the rights to name their inventions. Do you not recognize that?

Sorry I asked, Ed. Good luck with that marketing strategy.

ddf
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos - 03/30/13 10:19 PM

Del,
Thanks for the well wishes. My recent marketing plan has certainly brought me in contact with some very interesting pianists and people in the piano business. Take care my friend!