Valentina Lisitsa and 21st Century Marketing

This is no big deal in terms of musical virtuosity on the piano. Valentina Lisitsa would bring that commodity to any piano she chose to play. However, from the perspective of how a classical soloist will be marketed in the 21st century, it might be of interest. The post is long though, so be forewarned.

In 2009 Ms. Lisitsa undertook to jump-start her career as a performing soloist with what she dubbed her Rachmaninoff project. At her own expense she hired Michael Fine (a top-flight recording producer) and the London Symphony Orchestra (a top-level recording orchestra). She chose a Hamburg Steinway D from Gerd Finkenstein's rental stable in Germany, and Finkenstein himself drove that Hamburg D to the Abbey Road studios in London where Lisitsa had booked studio time for three separate recording sessions with the LSO. Finkenstein also cared for the Hamburg during the sessions. The project included all four Rachmaninoff Piano Concertos and the Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini. It wrapped up in early 2010. Three hours of studio time were budgeted for each concerto. The project involved considerable expense and risk to Ms. Lisitsa, but her career as a soloist had clearly stalled and her piano concerto appearances had been limited to regional orchestras that lacked any international recognition.

Early in 2012 after no major record label had taken the bait, Decca bought the entire Rachmaninoff project and began to release the concerto recordings individually in digital download form. Very recently, Decca has decided to issue hard copies of the concertos both in individually priced CD's and in a complete boxed set. All of this makes perfect sense except that in the meantime, Ms. Lisitsa has become the marketing face of Bösendorfer.

These days Ms. Lisitsa’s personal website opens with a video of those long-ago Abbey Road sessions of 2009. The piano is obviously the Finkenstein Hamburg Steinway chosen by her at the time, but the identifying information (the Steinway name and logo as well as the Finkelstein logo) is blocked by a cookie disclaimer at the bottom of the page. Zooming out brings the missing information into view. The same information is completely blocked in another extended shot by a table with a telephone perched on it. Here's the link.

http://www.valentinalisitsa.com/


Earlier this month a new round of promo videos were uploaded onto youtube by Ms. Lisitsa herself. They open with a slick Decca promo that punches up a Decca/Lisitsa album cover in synch with the accents of a familiar Rachmaninoff riff. It's quite effective. This brief promo is followed by new videos of Ms. Lisitsa performing complete Rachmaninoff 3rd concerto solo parts on a shiny Bösendorfer. These are new videos with high production values. I think it's fair to assume that these particular sessions are unrelated to and came well after the LSO recording sessions of three years ago.

Ms. Lisitsa has provided the following intro to these entries…..

If you think this is fun, I can't wait for you to hear the REAL DEAL :-) With Orchestra ! With London Symphony :-)
It is released today in digital. Be the first to hear it !

Amazon US http://tinyurl.com/aakjorf

Amazon UK http://tinyurl.com/bdr9us7

iTunes US https://itunes.apple.com/album/rachmaninov-piano-concerto/id581994251?ign-mpt...

A message in a bottle for anybody who worried it's too fast, please check Rachmaninoff playing his own 3rd Concerto :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA0kXDMKiLg
Admittedly he was supposed to know which tempos he wanted for this piece :-)


Touché to all those who like their Rachmaninoff slow and ponderous with plenty of dramatic schlock!

Here's a link to the first movement promo. Is there any doubt that this woman can play?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhEpvIpe-6s


Simultaneous with Lisitsa.s new youtube releases, Pieter de Rooij, who documented the LSO sessions in detail as they happened with live performance footage and interviews, has posted a new youtube cobbled together from the LSO sessions three years ago . This video also shows the offensive telephone, but the shot does not block the view of the potentially troublesome Hamburg Steinway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejoXpcJb5hE

Again, all this is no big deal from the standpoint of piano artistry. No one other than Rachmaninoff himself has recorded his concertos in the light accelerating style of Lisitsa, and she makes concert Hamburg Steinways, practice Hamburg Steinways, concert Bösendorfers, and practice Bösendorfers all sound terrific.

Why this direct-sell pitch is of interest (possibly only to me ) is that financially and professionally Ms. Lisitsa is at a crossroads in her career. As youtube's classical version of Justin Bieber, she has not exactly endeared herself to conservative classical recording labels or major performance venues. As the contemporary classical artist who has given most freely (both literally and figuratively) of her material and her thoughts on youtube, facebook, and her own website, and interacted directly with her millions of fans through electronic media, she is unique in the classical music world.. To paraphrase Michael Francis’ comment about the LSO's instnat recognition of her immense talent when they first heard her at Abbey Road studios, “(she knows) how good she really is”. And she cares enough to want you to know that too.

What remains to be seen is how many fans will take her suggestion and spring for a $3.61 download (Amazon US price) or $? for a hard CD or $?? for a boxed set of CD's. None of these items will permit fans to see her in action the way that her free stuff does. The solo youtube videos do allow for that and also have the advantage of allowing all the notes that are customarily buried by the orchestra in a Rachmaninoff concerto to be clearly heard. Ms. Lisitsa (and Decca) will need to get buy-in from the older conservative audiophile set who enjoy collecting and comparing different performances of the most familiar classical works. Will they get enough buy-in to validate the project financially?

The second question is whether the Decca deal and the buzz of some better bookings will get Lisitsa the headliner live bookings that her talent calls for, and finally get her into the snooty big houses with the big orchestras (without her having to put up front money out of pocket). She did get Royal Albert Hall in London not that long ago, and Finkenstein did provide a splendid Bösendorfer for the occasion. Five thousand fans and curiosity seekers opened their wallets and showed up for a solo recital. Decca has bitten on that one as well. And Lisitsa is ready, willing, and supremely able to play the old standards (Winter Wind, slow movement of Moonlight, Rachmaninoff preludes etc.) and even the trite (Für Elise). This is exactly the sort of stuff that the big conservative houses need to feature to keep the subscription patronage rolling. On the other hand, Lisitsa is most definitely a 21st century artist with a bold new streak of self-management and a fan base that, while it is large and dedicated, is not accustomed to shelling out its coin to see her in live performance.. The irony here is that her immense electronic popularity has actually impeded her from being taken seriously by the 20th century establishment. Maybe her new management at IMG will slowly wean her of her generosity of spirit that has made her so accessible for free. But that would be a terrible shame and a tremendous loss, as her up- close-and-personal style is a force that expands interest in acoustic piano music. It might also be ill-advised since electronic media are the future, and the live audience potential for classical music is in decline world-wide, forcing the minority who attend to pay ever-higher prices.

In the simple like/dislike world of youtube and Facebook, Ms. Lisitsa is an unquestioned rock star. It may be a winning strategy for Bösendorfer to catch a ride on that star. In forward-thinking product identity marketing, one trendy and instantly-recognizable Lisitsa may be worth more than the whole Steinway Artist roster,and it could be that the Steinway folks are aware of that. But will the demographics of the Lisitsa fan base at some point come into alignment with the demographics of the $100,000 acoustic piano buyer? Time will tell, and we live in interesting times.



Here is a relatively up-to-date story on how the Rachmaninoff project came about and how it is finally bearing some fruit.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/arts/music/...?service=mobile

Thanks for the detailed synopsis.

The linked Globe and Mail article makes me realize that I just missed her appearance here in Toronto, which I would have caught if I had known of it.

That is an interesting story; I had no idea. That said, I don't really pay much attention to Lisitsa. She has, without a doubt, extraordinary pianistic skill... with fingers that might even make Andre-Hamelin envious, but her playing is so darn robotic and unmusical, IMO; some of my friends love her, but I just don't understand the appeal.

Thank you William for this intriguing and well-researched post. We have to admire the hugely talented Ms Lisitsa's enterprise and determination to thrust her career forward in a situation of increasing belt-tightening by the musical establishment and recording companies.

It seems that there are just about 20-30 of the world's elite concert pianists who have exclusive entrée to the world's best orchestras, concert venues and recording houses. For the rest, it must be among the most challenging and fiercely competitive career choices around.

Kind regards,

Robert.

>>>>>>But will the demographics of the Lisitsa fan base at some point come into alignment with the demographics of the $100,000 acoustic piano buyer?<<<<<<<

As a fan of her videos (perfect to have on all day in my line of work), AND as a current piano shopper, I think you are asking about me in that last paragraph! So I can report that alignment has definitely occurred.

I have been grand shopping around the country for about two years (see my old threads). One of the striking things that a neophyte learns pretty quickly doing this is that there are other equal or greater pianos in the world besides Steinway and Yamaha. This seems obvious to most seasoned members here (and myself after reading this site for a while) or people involved professionally in music, but I was interested in piano music and pianos for many years before I realized that Steinway wasn't a hands down clear cut "best". They have successfully created that image among the general public and casual piano fans all over the world.

Me a few years ago saw it basically like this: If you are serious and want a really great piano you get a Steinway. Unless you are playing jazz or pop, then you get a Yamaha. If you are pretty serious, but not rich, you get a lower end Yamaha. If you just want or need a piano, and aren't really a pro or serious musician, you get a cheap Asian knock off. That was the extent of it, top to bottom.

Discovering how far from the truth that is is really an awakening, and, in me at least, probably engendered a bit of a reactive anti-Steinway bias. When I play them now, it is pretty clear to me that the sound is not what I want. Years ago, I would have died to get to play a B or D, and to own one was an unthinkable fantasy. Today (and now that I have some financial wherewithal), I am very sure that there are several pianos that I greatly prefer to these.

The only other high-end brand I had ever heard of in those days was Bosendorfer. I knew nothing about them and had never seen or (as far as I knew) heard one.

Seeing Lisitsa play one was a part of my process of realizing the breadth of the high-end piano landscape. In that sense, she and her marketing power have likely influenced my choice to some extent. At the least, it has influenced me to look far and wide, instead of just defaulting to a Steinway (which I have available locally).

When spending this kind of money, no celebrity endorsement would ever carry much weight compared to the sound and feel of the instrument, but of course the mind is complex and we are subject to forces in the culture that we are not aware of. To me, I am playing and feeling and listening to make my choice. But who am I to say that the name on the fallboard plays no role in what I think or feel? Who am I to say that hearing her on youtube talk about her love for Bose and hearing so many hours of beautiful playing come out of her has no effect? I am sure it does.

Independent of all this, I have traveled the east coast and played almost every brand on Fine's performance grade list (Petrof and Sauter have eluded me, alas). Bosendorfer and Grotrian (different as they are) are my current final two (with a little more shopping still to do).

If I end up with a Bosendorfer, will it be because of her? I hardly think so, but again we humans are notoriously unreliable in assessing our own motivations.

I think she is a excellent pianist, but certainly prefer some other classic performances of most of her repertoire (Rubenstein, Arrau, Uchida, etc). Her technique is breathtaking. Her personality (and piano choice!) also adds to her appeal imo. I will not be paying money for any of her recordings, fwiw.

Fear not, Turandot. We have endured long and windy posts on many subjects, much less worthy of our attention, than Valentina. I enjoyed your post very greatly, and look forward to following the links you provided.

The only time I saw her in person, I forked over cash, and sat a scant 25 feet from the piano--- pretty close range to the thunderbolts--- but delightful if you can take it.

"... Ms. Lisitsa (and Decca) will need to get buy-in from the older conservative audiophile set who enjoy collecting and comparing different performances of the most familiar classical works. Will they get enough buy-in to validate the project financially?..."

I guess you are talking about me, because I hate dressing up in a coat and tie and squeezing into a crowded hall during flu season, where it's impossible to keep my distance from those who inevitably sneeze and wheeze. And, I do value collecting different performances of the same work--- in hardcopy; I've seen too many OS platforms come and go, and too many hard drives go to hard drive heaven. And yes, I am willing to buy the boxed set and pay cash for it; it's an important way to support both performing artists, and my own music education. Not just for the music, either; as you say, the big boys look to such sales to help figure out if an artist is bankable.

"...The irony here is that her immense electronic popularity has actually impeded her from being taken seriously by the 20th century establishment. Maybe her new management at IMG will slowly wean her of her generosity of spirit that has made her so accessible for free. But that would be a terrible shame and a tremendous loss, as her up- close-and-personal style is a force that expands interest in acoustic piano music. It might also be ill-advised since electronic media are the future, and the live audience potential for classical music is in decline world-wide..."

Like I said: neckties, long drives, parking garages, clouds of cologne, bossy docents, old people, flu germs. Valentina is a new thing under the sun. If anyone can break through to a younger audience--- and a new and viable way to get to it--- it is she. But I can't altogether agree that the potential for success with live performances is not there. However, that is a subject for another long and windy post by me, at another time.

"...Her technique is breathtaking. Her personality (and piano choice!) also adds to her appeal imo. I will not be paying money for any of her recordings, fwiw."

Well, as I said: we have endured long and windy posts on many subjects, much less worthy of our attention...

although i have been aware of bosendorfer for a long time (perhaps starting with the beatles' abbey road recordings?) i've been forced to 'sit up and take notice' of the beautiful sound coming from the imperial in both lisitsa's and montero's recordings.

Add another, though late, master of the Bosendorfer, Oscar Peterson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIkQNti8_EU

To comment on a smaller point of the larger discussion, Valentina chose an instrument for that project, not a brand. Whatever efforts are being made after the fact are to de-emphasize, not to hide.

I have seen photos of Lang Lang playing unidentified instruments with cardboard taped to the side and front to prevent identification even when there is a familiar, distinctive shape. I remember one recent, awkward promotion. Lang Lang is an Audi "Ambassador" and Audi commissioned a Bosendorfer for their 100th anniversary. Lang Lang played the instrument as part of the celebration, but the words "Lang Lang" and "Bosendorfer" somehow never meet in any of the printed coverage.
............

There are relatively few models for this new type of music or content distribution. How do you convert an audience into revenue? Specifically, how do you convert an audience built on free content into paying customers? Many musicians have used free content to put pressure on their contract holders. The comedian Louis CK made people notice when he self-financed and then sold his last comedy special direct. Within the larger audience are fans...fans willing to pay for exclusive content.

Over the last 15 years, consumers have shown great willingness to pay for hardware even as they are unwilling to pay for so much content. Of the millions of people who bought iPads (for ~$500) in the last 3 years, I wonder what they spend on digital content?

The informal top-down video of the Rach concert clearly shows the phone to be offset at an angle and further from the piano. Did they really "videoshop" the official video to put the phone in a strategic way to cover up the Steinway logo? Had no idea the lengths they go to...

Valentina Lisitsa is a breath of fresh air in the stuffy realms of concert pianists & orchestras. And while the traditionalists will try to push her out, it will be interesting to see which "wins" - to the general public.

Pipe Organ is going through a similar shake up with the controversial Cameron Carpenter (and a few others). I know that I'd rather sit through Cameron playing an eclectic mix in maybe an overly flamboyant way - than the traditional set who seem to have made an deliberate attempt to perform the most boring music - Messiaen, Buxtehude et al. To empty houses, largely.

Thanks to all who have posted here. I've enjoyed reading your posts.



Hi Sam,

I always enjoy reading the free content which you offer here to put pressure on the buying public. I am just kidding. You're not like that at all.

I just want to say that I am brand-neutral about this. Obviously, Ms. Lisitsa (Valentina to those as lucky as you) chose a piano for the recording project and not a brand. It's a good position for an artist to be in. I'm not sure she's in the same position today. She almost certainly wouldn't be if the makers' roles were reversed.

Even more specifically, she chose one of Gerd Finkenstein's fleet of rentals. I have heard that those pianos are all at the top of their game, and as I wrote, he also supplied her a splendid Bösendorfer for the Albert Hall gig.

My instincts tell me that Bosie made a coup when they signed her up. If you can get a charismatic and supremely competent classical pianist with 5o million youtube hits to be the face of your franchise, then why the he11 would you want anyone else? Will the conversion to revenue that you and I wonder about actually take place? I don't know. You might say that the musical performance industry, like Ms. Lisitsa herself, is at a crossroads.

I hope that Ms. Lisitsa, Decca and Bösendorfer all profit from whatever relationships they enter into. I have immense admiration for Ms. Lisitsa as a force to expand the appreciation of classical piano music.


Unfortunately, so have I...'nuf said.

I also wish everyone involved in this all the best. The classical piano world needs a shake up. Now if we could just get Ms Lisitsa to consider 21st century repertoire.

As for Lang Lang the pictures aren't so bad, it's the videos that show his goofy side.

I wouldn't compare Cameron Carpenter to Valentina Lisitsa. I'm only 18, yet I found Cameron's playing offensive. And I tend to like Buxtehude, Messiaen, Bach, Widor, Mendelssohn, etc. I don't like hearing revolutionary etude on the pedals . Then again, organ recitals in my area are usually giving to full churches, and the members of the local chapter of the AGO tend be purists when it comes to organ playing.

Now for Lisitsa... I love her playing. I love her attention to inner voices, phrasing, her tempi, and her habit of researching a piece inside and out before performing it. I can say that her videos do not do her live playing justice. I do find it sad that she's getting tied up in piano brand drama. I wish artists would stop becoming "artists" for different brands, and just play what they like. Much less red tape, and it would make their lives much less awkward, I would think.


Donald Lee III

Turandot,
That was a very interesting and insightful post. Thanks for taking the time to share it with us!

I'd like to see her on bluray DVD! ..."You know how to whistle don't you Steve,
you just put your lips together and blow"

Turandot!

Long time, no speak.

I loved the article and since I wasn't aware of her professional journey, it was a good read. Your summary wasn't half bad, either.

In the classical music biz there are quite a number of opinions of this sort of promotion, but my gut tells me that it's becoming more the norm than the exception, and it appears that Ms. Lisitsa was ahead of the curve. Given the ease and accessibility of youtube and mp3 files, maybe the days of the powerful manager as kingmaker are waning...

Thank you for drawing my attention to it - I love looking at what she's doing; coincidentally, I'm in the process of producing something very similar.

Open content really helps drive the live engagement for the artist and I can't imagine it's hurting her at all. Most impressive was her willingness to make such a personal financial investment in her recordings. Wow! That's confidence.

Have you actually heard her live? I thought the same thing until I heard her live and was blown away.

Thanks again to all who have commented.



It's a good thought, but she still has to wade through most of the twentieth century first. Could be that if she establishes herself to her own satisfaction, she'll put a little more risk into her repertoire.




Decca released the Live at Royal Albert Hall on DVD, but no blue-ray format is available AFAIK. Write to Ms. Lisitsa. She was the performer and the video director.Tell her you want blue-ray if you're going to smack down 25 bucks.



Hi Chris,

Nice to see that your professional credits now include 'humorist'.

I think she is ahead of the curve. It's not only the releases on youtube. She did a thing last year where she had a webcam on in her house to broadcast her practice over a period of days free to all who wanted to see and hear.

She has commented publicly that she uses youtube to size up the competition as well and research the performance history of a piece.. It's funny about MP3. Audiophiles complain incessantly about the sub-par quality, but I think a trained musician can get a very good sense of a performance from MP3 even if the piano isn't great. The phrasing, the tempi, the attention to interior melodies -- all that comes through. I suppose the sound quality is more critical in your field though.

Finally, Lisitsa's budget of $250k for her Rachmaninoff project, while substantial, had to be spread across the rehearsal and production of 5 major works. Since that came down to only 3 hours per work, she sent her Lisitsa minus orchestra youtubes of the Rachmaninoff stuff to Michael Francis before the sessions so that he could sense what direction she wanted to go. Maybe others have done that, but I'm unaware of it.

Francis commented publicly at the time that it was a huge help both to his conducting and to the orchestra members. He felt he knew her before he actually met her.

The classical music field will adapt to changing times, even if it must be dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century.

The fossils that be will knock Lisitsa, be horrified by Yuja Wang and Lang Lang, but so what? There are a lot of young folks on the rise, as always, and the old ways will slowly go away. Some for good, some for bad. So it goes.

Orchestras all over the country are in financial trouble, except for the LA Phil. Why is that? Is it just because of the Hollywood Bowl? Or is it because they are not afraid to program music from the 20th, and even (gasp) 21st centuries?

Over at the Pianist forum, they love to bash Lisitsa and Astanova for being Youtube phenomena. They are missing it.

Nice thread, Turandot.

Gary,

It would seem the "new" is ushered in for at least two reasons, It is good and it is different.

"Good Bye to the Old" in my opinion, is very short sighted. The "Old" as you say, came in and endured because it was and still is good. It is familiar, has been here for a long time and therefore, new is the release.

When I was given the opportunity to prepare a piano for Valentina, I was fortunate she was so prolific on YouTube. It gave me so much to listen to and know her as a performer.

BTW, Her husband, Alexi, is also a very good pianist. Alexi deserves significant credit for establishing her success on the "Internet".

I was very fortunate, as many seem to be, to have Valentina here in Lowell for two appearances. So may I offer, Valentina is a generous and very gracious personality. Suffice to say, this is also a key ingredient in her success.

I have deplored the lack of interest in classical music in the United States compared with European countries and many other parts of the world, so anything that promotes new interest in the world of serious music is fine with me. I admire Valentina Lisitsa's online performances. She is fascinating to watch. I am one of those 20th century fossils someone was writing about. I, too, collect multiple recordings of important works to compare performances and artists. I am a collector. I confess to having dozens of recordings of most of Chopin's works, as well as multiples for Beethoven, Mozart, Schumann, and so on. I won't even get into symphonic and operatic works.

I believe Valentina Lisitsa is a solid, top-tier performer in the same level as other top piano artists today. But even if I am wrong, who cares? She is trying to do something about the lack of interest in the genre. She is trying to promote a career. Why is that wrong?

I have played Bosies while looking for my special piano. I am not a fan of the smaller models I tried. I avoided playing the big ones because I knew I couldn't afford one and didn't want to have a piano spoil me for all other pianos. When I hear Valentina's talks about Bosies and listen to her play them, I am glad I didn't play the big ones. She is a great sales tool for the brand. I know Steinway has used their Steinway artist program this way for years, but her widespread popularity on YouTube has got to be one of the most successful campaigns in a long time for a piano brand.

I enjoyed reading the OP's post. Fascinating. I didn't know anything about this, and wonder if anyone else has any interesting information like this about other piano artists, etc. I really would like to know more.

(I want to add, I recently completed my piano search very happily with a slightly-used American Mason-Hamlin BB piano that fit my taste and budget. I love it. But would I trade it for a slightly-used grand Imperial 290 if cost were the same? What do you think?)

Very true!

I'd never heard of Lisitsa (not being a fan of Youtube) until I joined this forum two years ago, but my curiosity was really only piqued when people mentioned that she preferred Bösendorfer, as my dream piano is also a Bösendorfer Imperial (which I first played in Bösendorfer Hall in Vienna when I was a poor student many, many years ago).

Then I met her when she practised for her RAH concert in a London piano showroom earlier this year - she played the entire program (3 hours of music...) for the 20 or so people who turned up to hear her 'practise', plus a few other pieces that she had no time to play during the concert. I'd say that the secret of her success is not just due to her YouTube appearances, but also her warm and charming personality (she was happy to chat to everyone, regardless of how musical they were) and the fact that she so obviously loved to play the piano. The latter is also part of Lang Lang's enormous success - he radiates joy in performing, unlike some classical pianists I could name who look like they are undergoing water torture when they play....

I think what he "radiates" are the most nauseating affectations I've ever seen. I can't bear to look at his stupid face when he's playing. Less is more. Always. Give me Horowitz or Argerich or indeed almost any other player over that clown.

I can't speak about Lisitsa; however, I have heard C. Carpenter twice. The second time, I walked out at intermission. I guess I am one of those old fossils. The program was more about him and not the composer IMHO. There is also that famous Youtube of him playing in drag at Dickinson College. What is the point?
On the other hand, CC is bringing new converts to the organ. Or are they just his disciples? Virgil Fox was out of the mainstream but I do think he brought people to appreciate organ music. With CC, time will tell.

Did you see "Do or Die: Lang Lang's Story" on BBC One in November? It told a very remarkable story indeed.

May I suggest that you close your eyes and just listen to his sound. That could be a revelation!

Kind regards,
Robert.

No, I saw the trailer but thought oh God, I can't watch his ridiculous facial contortions, and so I avoided it. Shallow I know. But no one is going to persuade me that his face-pulling is desirable. A decent teacher should have beaten that nonsense out of him right from the off! It's distracting and completely unnecessary. I know he has many fans and he is at the forefront of popularising classical piano and I give him credit for that - but I really cannot stand to look at him.

Please desist.

This thread is about one artist's attempt to advance her career and the music she loves by somewhat unconventional means. It is not about Lang Lang or his well-known sense of the theatric. To come on here simply to unload a bunch of personal animosity and refer to someone's "stupid face" is completely uncalled for.

It is possible to appreciate or disapprove of Ms. Listitsa's undertakings without knocking or vilifying others. The point was made that her new approach does not lessen the accomplishments of others who have taken more traditional ways to bring the pleasure of classical music to an audience. It's a good point.

We should follow the example of Ms. Lisitsa herself. Other than occasional comments disagreeing with the playing approach of contemporary exponents of the so-called Russian school of pianists, she has never knocked the competition, and certainly never singled out any pianist for abuse or ridicule.

Again, we should all follow her example and resist any urge to burden others with our own subjective negativity.

I'm so thankful you are here to police and censor us! Keep up the good work.

Turandot, +1....This may be the first time I have completely agreed with one of your post. Clearly stated and on point. Thank you.

For those who haven't met Lang Lang; he is a very warm and charitable man. Don't judge his musicianship by a few flashy performances posted on Youtube.

Back to Valentina Lisitsa. I'm picking up the Rachmaninoff set this coming weekend. A hard copy for the car. Thanks.

Thanks once again to all who have posted to the topic of the thread.



I've been thinking about that. I'd like to know too. I'm no piano performance historian at all, but it seems to me that classical piano music hasn't been as successful as opera or dance in freshening its image while holding onto all that is good about the past. Take the Three Tenors phenomenon for example. They transformed opera haters into opera lovers without any loss of self-respect or disrespect for the music. And they had fun doing it. That's important.

Most classical pianists seen and heard on youtube don't upload their own stuff, and definitely don't add a note asking their fans to be the first to own their product for sale. I'm sure it's scandalous for some. Even fraternizing professionally in performance with artists of other musical genres (Friedrich Gulda, Emmanuel Ax, etc.) can get an artist into hot water with the establishment.

IMO Lisitsa's position at present with regard to youtube and social media most closely parallels the position of the symphonic and operatic composer Richard Strauss when in 1904 he brought the entire music establishment down on his head by giving two concerts in Wanamaker's (now Macy's) Department store in NYC. Critics on both sides of the Atlantic wrote that he had cheapened classical music by performing it in a place of commerce. This isn't much different from how old-guard critics pan Lisitsa today. The difference is that in Strauss's day, critics were kingmakers with tremendous power to make or ruin careers. Today it's completely different. With so much content on demand and most of it free, any individual can educate his own ears and come to his own judgment -- professional critics be damned.

Strauss's response to the lambasting he absorbed was to say: "True art enables any hall, and earning money in a decent way for wife and child is no disgrace - even for an artist." I think Lisitsa would see things pretty much the same way. She is not to blame that pianists who can barely play have their own youtube channels. She simply wants to reach as many folks as she can and let them make up their own minds.

turandot,

I have no quarrel with what Lisitsa is doing to advance her career through unconventional means. I just wish I found her musicianship more compelling. As far as I have seen and heard so far, she is within the pack of competent professional musicians but nothing special, and the attention she has garnered seems out of proportion to her actual accomplishments, imo.

T,
I think I've said this a time or two about selling pianos.

BC

Sophial,

While I understand your sentiment, I do think that "competent professional" understates Ms. Lisitsa's talent by quite a margin. Nevertheless, I think you hit on the obvious point that the music biz is the music biz and that talent is only one piece of the "international performing career puzzle". The trouble is that in today's world, the ground game of classical music promotion is changing quickly and we all struggle to find the balance between making ourselves available and playing hard to get.

As to the proportionality of attention to talent issue, I think we can all breath a deep sigh of relief in knowing that in this case, the issue is not one of Lady GaGa proportions...

I have a feeling that the limited demand in the US for new classical piano cds has driven the music companies to manipulate the public's concept of who the most talented pianists in the world are. If they have a large catalog of one artist and can recycle it in various formats endlessly, they have no urgency to introduce new artists. On the other hand, if sales on these items drop significantly, they suddenly discover a new, wonderful, artist who is rewriting the rules of music with his/her magnificent interpretations. I feel for the artist who must find a way to distinguish himself/herself in this environment. It used to be that a pianist had to win a major competition to prove his worth. That was a slippery slope, but at least we heard of some new artists once in a while. Now that doesn't seem to be enough. Maybe YouTube is the way. I just want classical music to flourish and for more people to find the joy that I find in this magical gift. We may need more people like Valentina to open the eyes of the music-buying public. Good luck to them all.

Indeed, but I put her in the same category as an Andrea Bocelli who has had popular and commercial more than critical success. For an upcoming star with real artistry and musicianship, I'd give the nod to someone like Benjamin Grosvenor. I'd listen to him any time rather than Lisitsa.

We live in an upside down world, their are hundreds maybe a thousand wannabe classical players trying to make a go of it as a career.. if Ms Lisitsa found a way bravo!
they pay bigger prizes for Wheel of Fortune than Jeopardy! go figure, Lady Gaga will make more money in one month than Lisitsa would in 20 yrs of playing
finacial compensation seems to go more to the "popular" than the scientist who discovers
a cure for some dreaded disease would recieve paltry finacial compensation
than some major league ball player...an upside down world to be sure!

Sophia,

I have no quarrel with your opinion of Lisitsa the musician if it is your own opinion. It bothers me a little that you refer to her level of "critical success". I think, unless you yourself are a professional critic, you should only speak for yourself. That's good enough. Professional critics are becoming relatively toothless, but they are still scary, and often nasty and vindictive.

Unless you have paid for her material in live or recorded form, you are in Ms. Lisitsa's debt for giving you and everyone else so much via free electronic media to react to in forming your own judgment. That judgment is different from mine, but that's of no consequence whatsoever.. The point is that in the 21st century we are able to reach our own judgments of what we would rather listen to without a whole bunch of effort.

This thread is really more about the means to the end than anyone's (self especially included) particular categorization or pianist ranking system. If, as you say, the attention paid to Lisitsa is out of proportion to her accomplishments, then it proves that something is clicking, and that Bösendorfer and Decca, rather than reacting slavishly to professional critics, are catching a ride on whatever is clicking.

This morning I listened to some week-old tracks on Lisitsa's youtube channel. I was hardly johnny-on-the spot. Thirteen thousand had preceded me. Here are some notes from her that accompanied one upload.

What you see and hear is basically my first performance, LOL!
Piano is Boesendorfer Imperial owned by http://www.leclavier.ch/
Free sheet music download is available, as always, at IMSLP library:
http://tinyurl.com/cuenc44

This little piece is the best answer to all those "music critics", self-proclaimed experts and other snobs who throughout the years and years belittled, ignored or attacked Liszt music as primitive kitsch designed to pander to primitive tastes of gullible public. What can be closer to perfection than these few pages sparsely "populated" with few notes , easy enough for any amateur to tackle - yet profound and comforting to turn to in the moment of quiet happiness and contemplation - or in the moment of utter hopelessness and despair?



What I get from those notes is a musician who is encouraging her followers to explore some free sheet music and make their own statement with a piece that is not densely populated with notes and is not all that technically demanding. I think it's this encouragement and lack of any condescension that is working. It's also quite obvious what she thinks of so-called experts.

________________

BTW, I'm intrigued by Ben Grosvenoor as well. I'll be making my annual pilgrimage to La Jolla, CA in February to see what's up with him. But let's be clear here. Grosvenor is in the emerging stage where the main challenge is to keep up with all his competition-related obligations without physical and mental exhaustion. Lisitsa went through that long ago with t he handicap that she made her bones on dual piano works. At this point her interest is in resuscitating a career that had stalled badly when the critics moved on to the latest competition darlings and left her to her own devices.

HI turandot,

It is very much my own opinion based on watching a number of her youtube videos and sections of the Royal Albert Hall recital. It was only after that and out of a sense of "what is all the fuss about?" that I started reading more and talking to other pianists whose opinion I respect and who had come to similar conclusions independently.

I do appreciate her egalitarian stance and willingness to buck convention. She seems like a lovely and gracious personality. However, it doesn't surprise me that her solo career had stalled, probably for those reasons I mentioned in my earlier post. Once you get past admiration for her technical facility, there is not a lot of great musicianship happening, imo. But I realize others may strongly disagree.

Sophia

Sophia,

I very much respect your opinion and appreicate you caring enough to take the time to post here. I really should get out of this thread for a while instead of mouthing off, but allow me one personal note.

I don't know exactly what makes a performance compelling to different people, but I don't think Lisitsa's demeanor or style on the bench contributes that much to whatever it is. Lisitsa's posture and motions remind me of someone operating a loom, and she dispatches the music without giving the appearance of savoring it. I know from talking to others that her way can be maddening.

I've always been drawn to performers who seemed a a little cold-blooded in their execution of a piece (even when they didn't have a warm and gracious personality ). Michelangeli, Richter, and the late Alexis Weiseenberg were big faves of mine when I was more involved in classical music. Each one got my box office donations.

So personally I'm a sucker for the aloof and dispassionate image that Lisitsa presents at the piano. I also admire all the videos she uploaded in which she was playing both Bosies and Hamburgs that were nowhere near the top of their game and was sitting on a $50 X bench. Hey, what can I say? I've been reaching an accommodation with less than perfect pianos all my life and honestly prefer upright chairs and X benches to the fancy stuff.

Happy New Year to you. It was fun chatting with you once again. Now I've got to try my best to stay out of the way for a while!

Again, not challenging your personal preferences or intentionally singling you out, I would like to correct this misconception that Valentina ever lacked wide critical acceptance; she had many excellent reviews but that was not why she struggled to develop her career. Those who were previously aware of her regularly laid out fine reviews for both her mastery and her performances. What she lacked was draw. She has had critical acceptance in the community for some time. She found a way to create her audience. Her audience includes millions who have never seen her live. More audience means more fans and more critics.

Her career had basically stalled without the draw. Her traditional options were not good, so she took big risks and earned my fascination a second time. I feel almost the opposite, like reading a great author that finally made the NY Times best seller's list.

The idea that she is not deserving of success for her artistry irks me. Preferring another doesn't bother me in the slightest, but trying to detract or divert that success shows a real disconnect to me. Isn't there room in the great many, half-empty halls to do more?

Hi turandot,

Thanks for the kind words and Happy New Year to you too! It's an interesting thread, and I don't begrudge her success, nor question her path to it. However, my opinion of Lisitsa's musicianship has nothing to do with her demeanor or visuals at the piano. I don't get aloofness from her at all. If anything I find her to be rather demonstrative in her arm movements and facial expressions, unlike say Richter (who I adore), Horowitz, Rubinstein and other performers who exhibited the highest levels of musicianship and interpretive artistry with no fanfare or showmanship. I simply don't find her musical ideas or interpretations to be very compelling, interesting or artistically convincing, which leaves me feeling she is not a top caliber artist, although very technically adept. Sam and others may disagree, fair enough. She deserves credit for finding another path to success, whatever opinions I or others may have of her strengths and limitations. Nice chatting with you again too.

Sophia

Just look at what Emily Bear is "using".

First appearance on "Ellen" I think it was a Yamaha, and there are movies on youtube of her promoting a variety of piano stuff. Recently I haven't seen her with anything else than Steinway, though I could be wrong?

With Emily's emphasis on composing I don't know how marketable (or interested) she will be in older age for a piano brand - nevertheless she will be able to earn all the money she needs doing scores for commercials, films etc, adding to what she may earn in "non-commercial" music.

If you have any doubt about this,
(
if you saw her at Ellen doing this
(jump to 4:30 if you're in a hurry)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EybqStUVyDg
you probably haven't
)
just look at her two recent re-scorings (?) of short movies


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlIypRYeVH0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHldRFFOch8


Did you cry? Yes, the movies are good from the start, but great scoring makes it perfect.

Compare with these versions of the first film Reunited:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESAW8EluEjg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u24f2O_sLjc
These two don't give me the same emotional rush, at all.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I get the impression that she knows a lot about the playing of other classical pianists, and admires them, not as competition, but as colleagues.

It goes without saying that everyone is entitled to her/his personal taste, and entitled to employ a different (often subconscious) weighting system of the many factors that collectively add up to taste. There's no argument about that.

When I was a kid studying piano, it was pretty much one headliner pianist concert a year. Other than same-day student rush seats, tickets were expensive. Like most of my piano student friends, I collected a few albums with my allowance and part-time job earnings. The great debate of the day was Horowitz/Rubinstein...who was better? The debate was lively but poorly fuled, mostly by limited access to a few LP's, some cut live and some made in studio. Part of the fuel mix were the back covers of the albums, which touted the most favorable critical reviews from the profesesional experts of the day. In retrospect it was all kind of silly, but we were kids, and even if we had been adults, access to comprehensive data was extremely limited.

Obviously times have changed and Lisitsa, love her or hate her, deserves credit for being at the vanguard of that change. A professional pianist who shares her practice sessions, broadcasts with a webcam from her practice room, and feeds her fans a steay stream of new material as well as encouragement to pursue their own talent -- such a musician is bound to lose a few who like to think of their faves as members of a pianist pantheon in the garden of the gods.. On the other hand, 52 million youtube hits are going to pick up some new fans along the way to replace the stargazers

Even if you dislike Lisitsa's playing approach or fault her musicianship, you should be grateful to her for making it so easy for you to reach that conclusion. You don't have to spend a dime to get the data that fifty years ago would take most of a lifetime to accumulate.

I remember the great Horowitz/Rubinstein debate quite well. And as for pianos, the debate back then focused on the relative merits of Steinway versus Baldwin. No other brands were considered to be in the same league - until Bosendorfers started to gain a following in the USA in the mid-1970s.

Now looking at the website with my 1600x1200 screen nothing is hidden initially, the phone is still there though. The cookie disclaimer when accepted turns into a menu. The hifi-interested should look to the left of the screen when she talks in the first movie. Looks like B&W 800's.
http://www.bowers-wilkins.eu/Speakers/Home_Audio/800_Series_Diamond/Products.html

When I was at university in the midst of my piano studies and friendly debates, Richter was also thrown into the mix. Though at the time, Cliburn hadn't yet self-destructed and was in consideration.

It's very true about the Baldwin/Steinway thingy but I think that Bosendorfer had crept in a bit sooner, in the early sixties. By the time I entered the UW-Madison in '69, it was already a Bosey school.

I think an important element is often missed when people consider the ability of Valentina Lisitsa.

She has a remarkable capacity to learn, she learns musical scores of great complexity very quickly and has gained herself a massive repetoire of technically challenging and difficult music because of it.

It is arguable that she is single-handedly responsible for the popularity of certain works. I read recently that it is now virtually a given that a concert pianist must be able to play all the Chopin Etudes and her You Tube versions are the first many youngsters see when they take an interest in classical piano playing.

This remarkable ability to learn is a double blessing, giving her more free time to actually promote herself.

The chances are that anybody else with her combined talents would take exactly the same course of action she takes.

The fact that none do does not make Valentina Lisitsa a freak, it simply makes her one of the greatest pianistic talents alive today.

Yes - Richter and Cliburn - were definitely part of the great debate back then. In fact, I was a great fan of Richter in the 60s.

I'd never been exposed to Boseys until I played one they'd recently acquired for the recital hall at the U of Missouri in Kansas City in '76. I'm impressed that UW-Madison was ahead of the curve !!