USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos

Posted by: master88er

USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/27/12 03:22 PM

All PianoWorld members: You're Invited!
Renowned Swiss Piano Expert Stephan Mohler to debut Kayserburg pianos


Swiss piano expert, and Guangzhou Pearl River piano production director Stephan Mohler will present the new Kayserburg Artist piano line in its USA debut at R.KASSMAN piano in Berkeley, California on Sunday, January 20th.
Mohler, the former Chief of production for C. Bechstein pianos of Berlin, Germany, will present the product details of the recently designed pianos by famed piano designer Lothar Thomma at a performance, presentation and reception featuring the new instrument. To build this instrument, Mohler created a "factory within a factory" at the Guangzhou facility, personally selecting the craftsman to work with him to build the pianos in the European guild system. This means that each instrument is built by a team of individuals from raw product to finished instrument. The pianos, being introduced to the American market at the 2013 National Association of Music Merchants convention in Los Angeles in January, are each hand-crafted and feature solid spruce soundboards, Renner (Stuttgart, Germany) action components, genuine Ebony sharps and patented keytops of mineral components nicknamed "Ecory" (Eco-Ivory). R.KASSMAN was selected as the first Kayserburg dealer in the United States by Pearl River America president Evelyn Luo in a "test market" of how the instruments would be received. Based on response, the instruments will be distributed nationwide beginning in January of 2013.

Posted by: Guapo Gabacho

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/27/12 07:53 PM

I would never consider a Chinese piano with a German sounding name.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/27/12 08:06 PM

Quote:
I would never consider a Chinese piano with a German sounding name.


That's fine.

Chances are the new 126 upright show at next NAMM will blow people's mind. The piano apparently became 'talk of show' during last Shanghai piano fair and since appears near impossible to obtain.

[This from a non-dealer telling other non-dealers...]

At least these are genuinely German designed pianos [Lothar Thomma] with many genuine [and clearly identified..] German parts.

AS opposed to some other "German named pianos" cleverly made some place in Europe with Chinese made parts inside them [not clearly identified..]

Staying slightly behind the times may pay for some - for others it ain't.

To each his own.

Norbert smile
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/27/12 08:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert

At least these are genuinely German designed pianos [Lothar Thomma] with many genuine [and clearly identified..] German parts.

AS opposed to some other "German named pianos" from somewhere in Europe with Chinese made parts [not clearly identified..]
Speaking in a derogatory fashion about other piano makes is a turn off to most customers. Not specifically naming the piano(s) does not change this tactic. It's still bad mouthing the competition.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/27/12 08:34 PM

There's nothing "derogatary" about this claim.

No names are mentioned, no fingers pointed.

It's not my job to identify specifics or specific names.

For those who like to find out more, reading specs and asking appropriate questions from manufacturers is a good start.

I did - years ago when I visited several factories. Nobody there mentioned the typical "made to our specifications" - all [well, most..] were clear an direct in their answers. For which I respect them.

Here it's somewhat different.

Just mentioning the earth is round gets you quickly into trouble with the favorite crowd.

As if my observation and resulting opinion would make the slightest difference, let alone be of any benefit to me...

Norbert cry
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/27/12 08:44 PM

I know a dealer who had derogatory claims about a Japanese piano maker("plastic") on his website although he knew they were unfounded and who did not mention his industry affiliation on PW until after it became a rule for dealers.

"There's nothing "derogatory" about this claim.

No names are mentioned, no fingers pointed."
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/27/12 08:52 PM

Norbert said nothing derogatory about the piano or of the dealership. PLU, you misread his post.
Posted by: Rickster

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/27/12 08:55 PM

Come on, gents, let Mater88er (Mr. Kassman) make his announcement/invitation in peace. Other dealer members here have done it... smile

Thanks,

Rick
Posted by: Norbert

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/27/12 09:00 PM

Not buying a "Chinese piano with German name" is perfectly fine by me. It's a free world out there, buyers can [and should..] do as they see fit. No offence to Guapo - a friend!

[Hey, that's why we like to sell Estonias & Sauters!! thumb]

Buying something however, which is clearly not what it claims to be is a somewhat different matter.

Unfortunately a not too infrequent episode involving many of today's "American", "German" and "Canadian" named pianos - from seemingly everywhere and anywhere...

In this regard Kayserburg or Ritmüller [ sister brand] are hardly main villains as there is nothing secret about the details of their pianos, point of origin INCLUDING all parts and components.

By the way: "in detail"

In fact: "proudly and respectfully" made in China.
[ o.k with a little help: http://www.kayserburgpianos.com.au/aboutus.php

In fact the pianos seem to be getting interesting bed partners in the very heart of German piano making:

http://www.dieklaviermachermeister.at/herstellerberichte_nov10.php?lang=en

Time to wake up to a slightly different world out there....

Norbert
Posted by: Dave B

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/27/12 09:21 PM

Thanks for the invitation. Can you tell us more about the piano line? Or post a link?
Posted by: Guapo Gabacho

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/27/12 10:13 PM

I wasn't knocking Chinese pianos, just those hiding behind a fake name. I think Hailun is a good example of the Chinese doing their thing and developing their name and would not hesitate to again consider them.
Posted by: Plowboy

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/27/12 10:29 PM

Only Norbert could get in trouble for plugging his pianos in a thread started by another dealer to plug his pianos!
Posted by: master88er

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/27/12 11:49 PM

Geez,

It was simply an invitation! You're not obligated to attend,or have any interest, but i don't recall such vitriol when others have recently invited members to Bosie events, haliun events, Cunningham events or Yamaha events.

And, anyone who thinks the name Kayserburg, as spelled, is an attempt at German lineage obviously hasn't traveled beyond the Rio Grande. I guess we'll just have to suffer without a purchase from Groucho..... Oops, Guadalupe....... dang spellcheck.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/28/12 02:01 AM

Quote:
Only Norbert could get in trouble for plugging his pianos in a thread started by another dealer to plug his pianos!


Funny, we're not even a dealers... grin

Quote:
but i don't recall such vitriol when others have recently invited members to Bosie events, haliun events, Cunningham events or Yamaha events.


Of course not. None of the others seem to pose such threat to what is perceived by some as the currently established order of things.

Meaning unfortunately also "opportunity of a lifetime to buyers"

And therein lies the problem.

Everybody make sure never to find let alone try any of these pianos.

Even more dissent expected to break out after....

Let's have 2013 become a year of order and peace!

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

Norbert thumb
Posted by: Guapo Gabacho

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/28/12 08:20 AM

Kayserburg sounds so Asian, no doubt it was made in Guangzhou, China since the Dim Sum dynasty.
Posted by: turandot

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/28/12 11:37 AM

Originally Posted By: master88er
Geez,

It was simply an invitation! You're not obligated to attend,or have any interest, but i don't recall such vitriol when others have recently invited members to Bosie events, haliun events, Cunningham events or Yamaha events.


Master,

Maybe it's just bad dumb luck, or maybe you need to cultivate some enablers. To make it work, you simply cannot have a first responsee that dumps a bowl of stone-cold gazpacho on your head, followed by Norbert and his nemesis buzzing all around your topic doing a Tom and Jerry retro animation piece.

Let me try to clean this mess up.


originally posted by Gazpacho Brujo

I love the name Kayserberg. It reminds me of when I was employed as a sorcerer at a feudal castle.


originally posted by Northoftheborderberto

I would kill to get the Kayserberg lime, but I hope I don't have to. It's so disappointing. I've pumped up Rittmuller to the point it could be the lead balloon in the Macy's Parade, but what do I get in return? Nada!! Life just isn't fair.


originally posted by PianomoderatorNYC

Simply amazing! I'm sure it will be boffo in the next Pianobuyer. In the meantime, could you post something played by Hamburg on a Hamelin and identify the piece?


originally posted by Ricardo Gasolini

Russell, what am I... chopped liver? I want that line. I'll trade you a Cunningham Composer for a Kayserberg Artist to get the ball rolling, What say you?


orignally posted by Mike's Carr Wash

It sounds like a name for hand-cut pastrami on a bulkie. I'm going to stop by for a sample.

_____________

Now to be serious....

Gazpacho,

Five years ago I felt the same as you do. I gave a point to Hailun for building under its own name. However, in the meantime Hailun has become the builder and/or major supplier to so many lines with so many names in so many different markets that five years from now, topics here may well come down to "My Hailun is better than your Hailun".

I don't see anything wrong with the Kayserberg name if the maker uses the name for the same pianos in all of its international markets and does not trade off whatever buzz the Artist line creates to push lesser products under the same name.

Maybe Master can comment on the current plans for worldwide distribution of these products and what markets are currently targeted.





Posted by: Norbert

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/28/12 12:11 PM

Tur:

1] grin

2] thumb

3] Nice to see everybody come to life thumb thumb

Norbert
Posted by: Plowboy

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/28/12 01:00 PM

I miss Mike's Carr Wash. He made some legitimate points and wrote in an entertaining style. Did he get booted or something?
Posted by: Entheo

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/28/12 03:41 PM

Originally Posted By: master88er
And, anyone who thinks the name Kayserburg, as spelled, is an attempt at German lineage...


but perhaps it is, aka http://engrish.com/ smirk
Posted by: carey

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/28/12 04:22 PM

Kayserburg pianos

Not to be confused with the city of Kayserberg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaysersberg

And not to be spelled as

Kaiserburg or
Kaiserberg or
Keiserburg or
Keiserberg

Consider the possibilites !!!! smile
Posted by: Norbert

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/28/12 05:06 PM

As a matter of routine I always ask my customers what they think about a piano after playing it first. It's a matter of courtesy, respect and of course helping to identify what they like.

As dealers we also learn from our customers' tastes: this can and often 'does' involve same instruments by same maker.

Waffling about a make and its presumably great or not so great features comes after. From my experience sound is the summary of everything happening in an instrument, be this part of its innate built quality or after-service.

If sound is not right, nothing else matters.

A lot of opinions and observations have been offered already about this newly introduced line of pianos but it would also be nice to hear from those having actually tried the pianos.

[ note emphasis on 'also'... wow ]

Time to sit back and listen to those hopefully a bit more in the know, serious...

Isn't it nice one doesn't have to "like" an instrument by simply trying it?

Smart dealers learn from this...

Norbert
Posted by: Plowboy

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/28/12 06:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Entheo
Originally Posted By: master88er
And, anyone who thinks the name Kayserburg, as spelled, is an attempt at German lineage...


but perhaps it is, aka http://engrish.com/ smirk


All your Kayserburg are belong to us!
Posted by: master88er

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/28/12 06:09 PM

Originally Posted By: turandot


I don't see anything wrong with the Kayserberg name if the maker uses the name for the same pianos in all of its international markets and does not trade off whatever buzz the Artist line creates to push lesser products under the same name.

Maybe Master can comment on the current plans for worldwide distribution of these products and what markets are currently targeted.



William:

As you know, the brand Kayserburg was created in 2008/2009 for the domestic Chinese market with no intent of export. Those instruments were essentially Ritmuller pianos with some variations and, in some specific model cases, more hands on- some even being finished in Germany.

Because of their acceptance in the marketplace, Pearl River then decided (2011)to build an instrument to compete with the Yamaha CF and Shigeru Kawai instruments and to market them with the Kayserburg label. They created a "factory within a factory," lead by Stephan Mohler, to build these newly designed pianos (by L. Thomma of course) on a very limited basis.

Now that the guild teams (European traditional method of building pianos) are fully trained, and producing approximately 40 instruments a month, Pearl River has decided to add the US market and Europe for ONLY the Kayserburg Artist series uprights. These pianos are best distinguished from the Chinese domestic instruments by model. For example, the domestic Kayserburg 48" piano is the UH121 - exactly the same model designation as the Ritmuller 48" in the USA.

However, the Kayserburg Artist 48" piano is the model KA121. These have completely different components, soundboards, actions and production (completely hand-made by the Artist team and each finished product inspected by Mohler)and include the new mineral "Ecory" keys (mineral substance that is very Ivory-like).

At the moment, only the Kayserburg Artist uprights will be available in the USA (KA 121, KA 126 and KA 132 and MAYBE the KA 130 (my personal favorite)), with grands to follow later - perhaps next year. The grand designations are KR or KD - not GH as in the domestic Kayserburg/Ritmuller.

Since Ritmuller's have become somewhat established in the USA, the intent is to keep their identity the same and separate the Kayserburg Artist pianos completely - much like Shigeru Kawai.

If there are any other questions, I am happy to answer them through PM.
Posted by: KurtZ

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/28/12 08:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Guapo Gabacho
I would never consider a Chinese piano with a German sounding name.


Said the gringo who uses a spanish screen name.

Kurt
Posted by: j&j

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/28/12 09:02 PM

Master88er,

For those of us that can't attend Winter NAMM, some pictures, sound clips, and a video of the guild team building one of the new grands would be very cool.
Posted by: KurtZ

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/28/12 09:26 PM

Russell,

Congrats on the official roll-out. I can't stand NAMM after about 35 of them but eventually I have to get up to Berkley to visit a favorite cousin. So right after I've kissed their darling baby and had my heart attack on a pan at Gioia, I look forward to meeting you and seeing the Kayserburgs.
Posted by: Gregor

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/29/12 03:44 AM

Originally Posted By: master88er
completely hand-made by the Artist team


Define hand-made. Are they using CNC machinery for making the bridges or do they make them with a chisel? Do they fit the thickness of the soundboard with a draw blade?

Gregor
Posted by: master88er

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/29/12 03:19 PM

Hi Gregor:

After 30 years of traveling to Germany, and doing business there, I know how "literal" the German language and people tend to be. So with my Lebkuchen in one hand, and schnapps in the other , I'll choose to take your comment with a smile and respond that, as you know, the Guild system of building instruments is very much a hands-on approach rather than assembly line production, which is largely automated and impersonal.

For example, using your soundboard example: This does not mean that wood is cut with a sawhorse and mean-toothed blade, but rather with a precision laser which is more accurate. The soundboard material is specially selected by a trained technician from a large stockpile of spruce (Pearl River has a HUGE stockpile), and then guided through the production and installation process by that same individual(s). With production line instruments, that is not the case. This same process is applied to other component selection, and the instrument is built in a separate facility in the guild fashion - several teams, each building sister pianos from start to finish.

If you would like to see an example of this type of production, I am sure I can arrange a visit to Sauter or Steingraeber for you since they are closer to you than Pearl River. They employ this same method of production, even though they don't use a "chisel" or "a draw blade" - oh, wait, Steingraeber does! grin
Posted by: Guapo Gabacho

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/29/12 03:51 PM

Originally Posted By: master88er
The soundboard material is specially selected by a trained technician...


A communist none the less.
Posted by: Furtwangler

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/29/12 03:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Guapo Gabacho
Originally Posted By: master88er
The soundboard material is specially selected by a trained technician...


A communist none the less.


No. A human being actually.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/29/12 05:08 PM

Appreciating people's input about these pianos.

So far it's hard to 'agree' or 'disagree' with anything being said.
In fact, nothing of real interest [to me] has been mentioned.

Would love comparing my own musical notes with these pianos against that of others.

Unfortunately no such opportunity yet.

There must be at least one out there....

Norbert
Posted by: Kurtmen

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/29/12 08:40 PM

Quote:
Five years ago I felt the same as you do. I gave a point to Hailun for building under its own name. However, in the meantime Hailun has become the builder and/or major supplier to so many lines with so many names in so many different markets that five years from now, topics here may well come down to "My Hailun is better than your Hailun".



For the past 15 years we have been waiting for the moment where the North American market recognizes a Chinese Piano Maker as a household name but it doesn’t happen. As time goes by China is rapidly developing and it is no longer the cheapest place to build pianos.

Here is the dilemma; there is no consumer confidence and the prices are no longer low enough to lure buyers. A clear statement of the lack of consumer’s confidence is the need of constant and repeated use of a German or European affiliation from a handful of “piano lines” built in China.

After seeing over the years a parade of piano lines from China, all practically with the same marketing structure, I wonder if somebody will change this trend. In my opinion companies as big as Pearl River should have done what the Japanese did back in the sixties, take the beating and practically built a piano only with one name while developing the product to the point that the quality made it an inevitable good value.

However and understandably the Chinese Piano makers have been more concerned with selling more pianos than branding a particular name and therefore instead of having one dealer in a whole region with Pearl River Pianos (for example) they have four dealers all with a different piano made by Pearl River, Dong Bei or whatever the factory happened to be. I thought that Hailun was going to be able to resist the temptation but apparently not.

An example of the value of branding is that Steinway, Kawai and Yamaha have been for a while already making pianos in China or Indonesia and their names are strong enough where consumers continue buying their products regardless.

I wonder if the Chinese Piano makers will change their strategy or just simply continue popping new names as long as possible. However as pianos made by the Chinese Piano makers get more expensive and their piano lines continue being washed out in a market with a slew of pianos with a German connection, it would not be a surprise to see a Chinese Piano maker go out of business or shift manufacturing to a different part of the world.

Posted by: turandot

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/29/12 11:06 PM

Posted by: Norbert

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/29/12 11:17 PM

Isn't it nice to sell Estonia and Sauter pianos?

One name - one quality.

And no 911 calls....

Norbert grin
Posted by: Furtwangler

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/29/12 11:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
Isn't it nice to sell Estonia and Sauter pianos?

One name - one quality.

And no 911 calls....

Norbert grin


Well, I will say this (and Norbert and I are not in cahoots)- I have a very close friend who is looking for a great grand piano.

Guess what brands I am going to take him to see next week??

You guessed it.

He is just friggin' tired of the 911 calls on his Steinw.... oops. I slipped.
Posted by: Gregor

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/30/12 05:10 AM

Originally Posted By: master88er
I am sure I can arrange a visit to Sauter or Steingraeber for you


I have been there as I had a Steingraeber factory training this year. There I saw some Kayserburgs.

Team production is more usual than asembly line in Germany. And to be honest: for the workers it is somehow boring to be specialized in only one production step. In some factories they do only that one step the whole day. E.g. glueing in the hammers as opposed to install and regulate the complete action.

Gregor
Posted by: Dara

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/30/12 06:52 AM

Best wishes "master88er" with Kayserburg Pianos.

Though you are the first (and only?) American seller/distributer, the only website for Kayserberg Pianos showing online is from Australia.... seems rather strange ?
Whether good, indifferent or otherwise it's refreshing to be informed about the use of laminated (veneer) soundboards in all of their pianos. - (on the Australian website).

*edit* - My understanding after further research is that the pianos listed on the Australian Kayserburg website only list the GH grand pianos and UH upright pianos for sale in the Chinese and Australian market ( and possibly other markets ?). The artist series , as you have mentioned, use different components including a solid spruce soundboard.

You state you shall only be introducing upright pianos to begin with.
Do you think there are features that distinguish these instruments from other pianos of high quality/design/components coming out of the current market?
Posted by: Entheo

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/30/12 10:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: master88er
I am sure I can arrange a visit to Sauter or Steingraeber for you


I have been there as I had a Steingraeber factory training this year. There I saw some Kayserburgs.


you saw some kayserburgs... in the steingraeber factory? confused
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/30/12 11:06 AM

Those were probably the Steinkayberburgs!
Posted by: turandot

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/30/12 11:15 AM

Posted by: Norbert

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/30/12 01:35 PM

Quote:
This is the result of an agreement between Pearl River and Steingraeber. Master88er has detailed it before in this forum. It does not mean that Steingraeber pianos are full of Chiense parts. From Steingraeber's end it's about easing entry to the Chinese market for its high-end pianos. From Pearl's end, it's about piano-making expertise. No doubt the patina of a prestige Euro connection doesn't hurt either.


This is 2 years old news and was explained to me in detail by Udo Steingraeber when I was in factory last.

While the world was disbelieving me then with our favorite heroes here laughing,Udo also was.

All the way to the bank...

Norbert
Posted by: LFL

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/30/12 02:10 PM

When I saw Master's initial post, I thought "they are following the Shigeru Kawai production model". I may or may not be correct in that thought assessment. Since I am expecting delivery of a new SK5 this week (hopefully....weather has been a problem and see this thread: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1995674
this current thread piqued my interest.
I could be upset that another company is following the Shigeru model; or, I could accept that it is a compliment to Shigeru--an attestation that Shigeru IS a success and should be emulated.
Ultimately, it comes down to sound/action/playability first, cosmetics second, and price third (IMHO)-- and how well the KA's meet these criteria.
Posted by: Michael Taylor

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/30/12 06:25 PM

Count me in Russel! I'll be there.
Posted by: master88er

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/30/12 07:40 PM

Originally Posted By: LFL
When I saw Master's initial post, I thought "they are following the Shigeru Kawai production model". I may or may not be correct in that thought assessment.


LFL:

Actually, you are not entirely correct or incorrect whome

Much like Kawai, with the GS series followed by the AS series then Shigeiru ( I actually wrote the catalogue for the AS series pianos), who followed Yamaha's example (C series followed by S series followed by CF series), Pearl River decided to start the Kayserburg line once their production line instruments had garnered substantial market penetration world-wide (contrary to a post in this thread that states otherwise - I'll get to him later). A major difference is that Pearl/Kayserburg decided to concentrate first on upright pianos rather than grands. In my opinion, this is a pretty wise move. After all, how many superlative concert grands can the market absorb? But, the market for upright pianos superlative to production line instruments, but not priced in the stratosphere, are few and far between. So I think the Niche for the instruments will be a bridge between those consumers wanting something more than a YUS Yamaha or K8 Kawai, but can't quite commit to purchasing a Sauter, Grotrian or Bechstein. One reason we were the sort of "test market" in San Francisco is that the small dwellings coupled with an arts-oriented and educated consumer are the perfect demographic for these instruments.

Now to the other posts:

Originally Posted By: Norbert

Would love comparing my own musical notes with these pianos against that of others.

Norbert


Dear Norbert: These pianos (KA,KR, KD series) have not been seen/heard by anyone on this continent so your challenge will largely go unmet - as you may well know. The normal Kayserburg series (UH uprights and GH grands), which you have heard, are wonderful instruments but not part of the Artist Series. One major distinction is that the KA/KR/KD series does have a solid European spruce soundboard, unlike the UH/GH series that we test-marketed and is sold domestically in China and in Australia. These are also completely different Thomma designs, with a different pressure bar, scale design, rib design, action design and..well, the whole thing's different!

Let's face it, all the arguing one can do in favor of a well designed/engineered all spruce (aka laminated) board won't convince little Johnny's piano teacher to recommend anything but a solid spruce board. Personally, having marketed these instruments locally, we are finding them extremely stable and holding tuning in the changing climate far superior to the less expensive solid boards. Oh well! Marketing wins out again and the Artist series have solid boards.

Originally Posted By: Kurtmen


An example of the value of branding is that Steinway, Kawai and Yamaha have been for a while already making pianos in China or Indonesia and their names are strong enough where consumers continue buying their products regardless.



Kurtmen: Turandot has already pointed out many of the ludicrous and acrimonious assertions in your post. However, he failed to point out your obvious lack of awareness of how Kawai and Yamaha got started and, arguably, destroyed the American piano industry.

You state:
Originally Posted By: Kurtmen
In my opinion companies as big as Pearl River should have done what the Japanese did back in the sixties, take the beating and practically built a piano only with one name while developing the product to the point that the quality made it an inevitable good value.


One name? Do the names Howard, Marco Polo, Diapason, Shulze and Sons, Scheidmeyer, or Grinell Bros. ring a Kawai bell for you? Or perhaps Story & Clark, Everett, Marshall Field and others in the case of Yamaha? It took Kawai and Yamaha well into their 30th year in the USA to establish a singular brand recognition that rivals others in the industry. The Chinese, IMHO, are doing so in half that amount of time.

Originally Posted By: Kurtmen
...it would not be a surprise to see a Chinese Piano maker go out of business or shift manufacturing to a different part of the world.


You mean like shifting from Japan to Mexico, Korea, the USA, Indonesia, Macao, Taiwan and finally China like Yamaha and Kawai have done in the past, and continue to do?!

Originally Posted By: Michael Taylor
Count me in Russel! I'll be there.


SO, here is a man who put his MONEY down on a Kayserburg. Michael, thanks for being a guinea pig of sorts grin. While your UH 121 Kayserburg is a wonderful piano when compared to other 48" pianos, the Artist series is vastly different and we'll be happy to see you at the event to make the comparison in person.

Which brings me back to the initial post - it is an invitation to meet the Production manager of Pearl River (sorry Kurtmen, but he is Swiss) and was the production director for Bechstein in the late 80's to early 90's. In case you missed it in all this carnival barkery, here it is again:

[img:center] [/img]
Posted by: Kurtmen

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/30/12 08:00 PM

Maser88er,
You over analyzed my post. My only point was that there is very little consumer confidence in the market for Chinese pianos and the marketing strategies are very similar among companies. I simply think it is time to try something new.

I'm sorry if it bothers you, I was just making an observation about the market from a dealer stand point. Take for example the used market; you can get more money for a 40 years old Yamaha than trying to sell a 1 year old used Kayserbeger or even a Chinese piano with more history.

This is what the market is like, I just pointed out. Anyways good luck in your enterprise I admire your determination.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 12:28 AM

Quote:
that there is very little consumer confidence in the market for Chinese pianos...


Not in China, world's by far largest market for which these pianos have been basically planned.

Maybe 5-10% of these new super-pianos may indeed trickle over to this continent should the Chinese have enough "confidence" selling pianos in this depressed market is worth their while.

Interesting times - better stay tuned....

Norbert
Posted by: master88er

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 01:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Kurtmen

You over analyzed my post. My only point was that there is very little consumer confidence in the market for Chinese pianos and the marketing strategies are very similar among companies.


LOL, your wishing this was true doesn't make it so. In spite of the best efforts of Japanese companies, who quietly build products and components in China and Indonesia, while publicly disparaging the same, the major Chinese companies are doing quite well.

Originally Posted By: kurtmen

I'm sorry if it bothers you, I was just making an observation about the market from a dealer stand point. Take for example the used market; you can get more money for a 40 years old Yamaha than trying to sell a 1 year old used Kayserbeger or even a Chinese piano with more history.


Your "observation" , as disingenuous as it is, is not based on reality. Have you sold a 1 year old Kayserburg , or even seen one? Maybe you are confused, or San Jose is different, but up here in civilization, we are selling used Japanese Kawai pianos for more than their new counterparts. I have yet to see a used haliun, ritmuller or Brodmann. And I am sure you would shout it from a rooftop if you had one.

Originally Posted By: kurtmen

This is what the market is like, I just pointed out. Anyways good luck in your enterprise I admire your determination.


Thank you for the comic relief. While I wish Kayserburg was my enterprise, I am simply the exclusive Bay Area dealer for the product and a marketing consultant to Pearl River.
Posted by: Gregor

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 07:10 AM

Russel, how will these uprights be priced compared to competitors products?
Posted by: carey

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 09:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Gregor
Russel, how will these uprights be priced compared to competitors products?


You beat me to it - I was just about to ask the same question......
Posted by: turandot

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 10:46 AM





Posted by: Jonathan Alford

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 01:33 PM

Originally Posted By: turandot



Fifty miles is no big deal in CA. I recommend the Eastbay route (not East Beirut! grin)

http://www.rkassman.com/maps.html



Save time for lunch at Picante - a nice little place just around the corner for Russell's shop!
Posted by: Kurtmen

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 04:52 PM

Quote:
The problem is that it's a broad observation from a dealer down the road in a hotly competitive market. It was clearly inspired by his posting an invitation to a store event. It just looks bad.


I think we all post in this forum at the risk of having somebody reply with a statement we disagree with or even at the risk of people dislike you in the real world, if you are not anonymous.
Your posts are keen and show great grasp of the nuances or fine layers of the piano business.

In good spirit I'll tell you; the judgmental and self righteous position don't equate with an individual of your intellect. wink
Posted by: master88er

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 05:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Kurtmen
Quote:
The problem is that it's a broad observation from a dealer down the road in a hotly competitive market. It was clearly inspired by his posting an invitation to a store event. It just looks bad.


I think we all post in this forum at the risk of having somebody reply with a statement we disagree with or even at the risk of people dislike you in the real world, if you are not anonymous.
Your posts are keen and show great grasp of the nuances or fine layers of the piano business.

In good spirit I'll tell you; the judgmental and self righteous position don't equate with an individual of your intellect. wink


Posted by: Guapo Gabacho

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 05:57 PM

How many "Artists" will switch to a vertical piano?
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 06:15 PM




I completely agree!

Posted by: turandot

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 07:17 PM


Posted by: musicpassion

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: turandot
Kurtmen,

I had no intention of being judgmental or self-righteous. I was simply trying to point out something -- something that is not intellectual or nuanced and does not have many layers. grin Your entry here just looks bad. That's all.

I think it's also fair to assume that half of the 2000 hits Master has gotten on this thread are from recreational users who sense the potential for blood-letting. Still. hits are hits and In that sense you've boosted your competitor's visibility.

It seems that rather than helping things, I'm just becoming part of the circus. so bye for now.



Grab the popcorn and soda.

I'm new here, but I do have an actual question for the thread (or for Master): are their grand pianos going to be at or part of the event? The website lists several models of grands. Somewhere along the way it became unclear to me if the grands were at the event or not.
Posted by: Furtwangler

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 08:46 PM

Moderators

May I respectfully suggest that we put this one out of its misery?
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 08:52 PM

It's quite disappointing that a thread about a introduction of a new piano, and especially one that is apparently of high quality, has caused so many negative comments, self promotions, and dealers trashing dealers. Why not just be happy that a new piano will be available instead of making endless predictions and judgements?
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 09:14 PM

How Interesting! - Turandot is scrambling to remove his posts before this thread gets locked for all time and eternity.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 12/31/12 11:37 PM

The only other product reviews written and eagerly read by public BEFORE product even being on market, are Apple and Microsoft.

By this measure, Kayserburg just beat heck out of them!!

Norbert thumb
Posted by: turandot

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 01/01/13 02:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
How Interesting! - Turandot is scrambling to remove his posts before this thread gets locked for all time and eternity.


Not scrambling, just giving up. My presence wasn't helping things. I care about both these guys. If it were you, I wouldn't give a damn.
Posted by: Dave B

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 01/01/13 05:26 AM

Kurtman, a lot of what your saying is true. But::: Chinese piano manufacturing is quickly coming to its own. When you walk into a showroom that presents side by side comparisons, you quickly realize the workmanship, materials, design, sound, playability, etc. have in a few short years caught up with and in some instances surpassed Japanese piano manufacturing.

Tim Oliver at Cunningham Piano was kind enough to take the time to show me these comparisons. And Tim confirmed my observation that over the last two years Chinese piano manufacturing has achieved a very high level of consistency and quality control.
Posted by: Michael Taylor

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 01/23/13 02:17 AM

How was the event?
Posted by: Norbert

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 01/25/13 03:59 PM

Hearing unbelievable reports about these pianos coming in fresh from NAMM, all from non-dealers.

Any member presently at show willing to confirm or elaborate things?

Curious....

Norbert
Posted by: Steven Y. A.

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 01/25/13 05:26 PM

oh...no polished white finish.. (from the australian website)
Posted by: Norbert

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 01/25/13 05:32 PM

Steven:
These are not the existing Kayserburg pianos on current website.
This is a completely new series called "Kayserburg Artist" - totally different pianos.
Never seen them, never played them...
Anybody?

Norbert
Posted by: Steven Y. A.

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 01/25/13 05:57 PM

I see! No polished-white-no-option laugh thats wife's order
Posted by: Michael Taylor

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 01/25/13 11:32 PM

I didn't realize the event was on NFL Conference champion weekend. I had a bit too much to drink to drive to Berkeley. Hopefully, I can check them out next week.
Posted by: master88er

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 01/26/13 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Michael Taylor
How was the event?

I didn't realize the event was on NFL Conference champion weekend. I had a bit too much to drink to drive to Berkeley. Hopefully, I can check them out next week.


Michael, sorry you couldn't make it. The event was really great and well attended.

I will tell you about one interesting anecdote:

Before the event, I hired RPT Peter Clark, from Sacramento State University, to prep the Kayserburg and three other 50 inch upright pianos: A Bechstein, Steingraeber and Sauter. I asked him to prep them to his liking, tune them to A442 and then to use blue painters tape to cover any identifying marks of each instrument.

Then, I hired Cesar Cancino (pianist / music director for Joan Baez and Maria Muldaur) to play all four pianos at the event - with short pieces going from one piano to the next for 30 minutes as people arrived.

We simply labeled the pianos A, B, C and D. I then printed a card listing the retail price of the pianos. They were:
1. $49,102
2. $38,640
3. $15,600
4. $14,800

Other than myself and Mr. Clark, nobody knew which piano was which.

Of the Technicians and teachers attending and voting, INCLUDING Larry Fine:
  • Nobody correctly guessed which one was the Kayserburg
  • 79.9% selected the Kayserburg as the most expensive piano on the list, and the others guessed it as the second most expensive on the list (100% placed it as one of the two most expensive- nobody guessed its real retail)
  • a direct quote from the pianist when playing the Kayserburg: "the touch of this piano is so far superior to the others that it MUST be the most expensive one."

Obviously, I was ecstatic as were the factory representatives and Mr. Mohler. I think it's fair to say that Larry was shocked.

This piano (the 132) then left for NAMM, where it continues to draw accolades from everyone who tries it. As I had mentioned in previous posts, Kayserburg has a very small and limited production and only 8 dealers will be selected nationwide. When I left NAMM yesterday, 6 had already been committed.

So Michael, the pianos will be in my showroom on Friday of next week (they leave LA on Thursday). I'd be happy to have you play them next weekend, but I think you'd best hurry in because two of the three are already sold to retail customers and will be delivered the following week.
Posted by: Steven Y. A.

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 01/26/13 10:45 PM

that sounds very exciting! mind to give out more information about the Kayserburg models and MRSP?

this is the only image i can find from a Russian website
http://www.arsenalmusic.ru/goods/item91010.html


KA132B
Posted by: master88er

Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos - 01/27/13 03:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Steven Y. A.
that sounds very exciting! mind to give out more information about the Kayserburg models and MRSP?



Hi Steven:

The three models that will be available in the USA are the KA 121, KA 126 and KA 132.

In polished ebony, the approximate MSRP is:
KA 121 - $11,400.
KA 126 - $13,000.
KA 132 - $15,000.

The reason it is approximate is that final shipping costs have not yet been determined and will affect these prices (upward frown )