How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165?

Posted by: jian1zh

How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/16/13 01:55 PM

new to this forum, and look forward to buying myself a grand piano.

Brand new Baldwin bp165, serial number dg37844, seller says it's brand new and asks for $9500(CAD), what do you guys think? I liked it's sound, though not as good as yamaha's, touching is pretty well, although again, not as good as yamaha.

Btw, shall I get this Baldwin, or a simillar ritmuller (seen people praise it on this forum)?

Kawai seems to be selling some cool piano with carbon fibre stuff, how do you guys rate carbon-fibre Kawai? I am a technical person and like this new space-age material. If I can stretch my budget a little bit more, I would like to have Kawai gm30.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/16/13 02:48 PM

Hi - Welcome to Piano World!

There seems to be some descrepencies in model numbers. Are you referring to a Baldwin BD165? Is this a purchase from a dealer or private seller? Baldwin is in a state of flux, however, and the products are not held in the same esteem as the vintage instruments. I would suggest that you look at other brands.

With the Kawai, I think you mean the GE-30. It is a good piano and does have the Millenium (composite) action. It is more expensive than the Baldwin, however. The Kawais have superior actions and quite trouble free.

The best thing you can do is play as many pianos as you can, in all price ranges. That way you can find what is best for you within your budget. May I suggest that you check out the "A&D Piano Buyer" at the link found on the left side of this page. The online version is free to use, or it can be ordered in print copy. It is the "bible" for those in search of a piano.

Good Luck with your search.
Posted by: jian1zh

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/16/13 03:23 PM

thanks for your reply.

I think it's a BD165, didn't have time to find out the model number, only serial. It's from a piano store who sells used piano and some brand new piano. Is $9500 a good price ? I've played it, it was actually better than the Kawai gm-10k I've tried on.

Ge-30 is a little bit out of my price range, my question is how much better is it's carbon-fibre action in comparison with woods?
Posted by: musicpassion

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/16/13 10:50 PM

It sounds to me like you want a Yamaha. I would suggest don't get the Baldwin, but go for a Yamaha.

Re the Ritmuller... don't buy a piano because someone else likes it. Buy a piano you like. And you might like the Rimuller... certainly worth trying.
Posted by: musicpassion

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/16/13 10:55 PM

Originally Posted By: jian1zh
Kawai seems to be selling some cool piano with carbon fibre stuff, how do you guys rate carbon-fibre Kawai? I am a technical person and like this new space-age material. If I can stretch my budget a little bit more, I would like to have Kawai gm30.


I enjoy Kawai - and I own one. Mine is older than the carbon fiber, and an upright. However I have played the Millenium Falcon, I mean the Millenium III action at the dealership. I thinks it's a quality action, but I didn't like it. I couldn't put my finger on why.
Posted by: jian1zh

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/17/13 04:28 AM

yamaha is totally out of my price range, despite I like its action.

The Baldwin is not too bad IMHO, it's just a matter of price...if it's a good price, I will take it.
Posted by: musicpassion

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/18/13 02:14 AM

Ok. I didn't look up the exchange rate.

However, I'm surprised Yamaha and Baldwin prices are that far apart.
Posted by: jian1zh

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/18/13 03:03 AM

is baldwin gp165 $9500(CAD) a good deal?

I like Yamaha's action, not sure if it's just me... the action seems to be better than those Steinways I've played on, especially the new c series.
Posted by: musicpassion

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/18/13 03:09 AM

It's not just you. Many people like Yamaha action, myself included.

About the price... sorry, but I don't know.
Posted by: Steven Y. A.

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/19/13 10:08 AM

I think richter also likes Yamaha action, and Horowitz's Steinway has been retrofit with Yamaha action
Haven't heard the Baldwin model but I tried an old Baldwin upright it sounds great. Some sonic character as their concert grand.
U may want to check out the Bolet ballade no.3 (chopin) recording on YouTube.
It's recorded with a Baldwin. To my ears it sounds better than his Steinway recording.

Where do you live? I live in Toronto I'm also on a piano hunt. If I see something interesting I'll let u know.

Steven
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/19/13 11:56 AM

Tell us more about the action in one of Horowitz's Steinways. This was done during his lifetime? Which of his pianos?
Posted by: Steven Y. A.

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/20/13 12:45 PM

I just played a Baldwin gp165, year 2013 Made in China. Very good upper registers. Dealer asks for $14000 CAD so i guess $9500 is a very good deal. Larry Fine's book suggest a maximum price of $11000. Consider pianos are more expensive in Canada so i would say $9500 is a very good price.

I can not confirm the source of Horowitz's piano. It may be just a rumor.
but here is a link for discussion on his piano:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1546518/2.html
Posted by: HalfStep

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/20/13 03:10 PM

I just bought a new BP 152 (delivery tomorrow!) I took lots of advice from PW. The most important, go with the sound and feel of a piano. To that end, I looked at a Kawai GE-30 (I think that's the model) and the Baldwin BP 152. I negotiated down 10% and had a trade up value for about 1700. In the end, the bottom line payment was $9365.00. I am ecstatic!

Good luck!
Posted by: jian1zh

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/22/13 01:54 AM

I think I've changed my mind.... The more I play Yamaha the more I love its touch, but heck, in Canada (toronto) Yamaha is definitely over priced.

I can't decide if I should bite my teeth go for a yamaha or settle for that Baldwin.
Posted by: beethoven986

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/22/13 02:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Steven Y. A.
I think richter also likes Yamaha action


Richter was a Steinway Artist for a long time before he defected (to Yamaha), as several artists did, due to well-documented quality issues at Steinway & Sons during the 1960s-1980s.

Originally Posted By: Steven Y. A.
and Horowitz's Steinway has been retrofit with Yamaha action


This is absolute nonsense. For starters, Horowitz was a dyed-in-the-wool Steinway loyalist. Secondly, even if it were possible to retrofit Yamaha parts into a Steinway (which isn't the case), Steinway owns the piano; why on earth would they put one of their competitor's parts in it?! Especially since the company militantly opposes the use of non-Steinway replacement parts in used/rebuilt Steinways.



Originally Posted By: Steven Y. A.
Haven't heard the Baldwin model but I tried an old Baldwin upright it sounds great. Some sonic character as their concert grand.
U may want to check out the Bolet ballade no.3 (chopin) recording on YouTube. It's recorded with a Baldwin. To my ears it sounds better than his Steinway recording.


You cannot compare a Bolet recording with Baldwin's Chinese-built instruments. He used an American-built Baldwin Artist Grand, which is a completely different design than the Chinese instruments.

Posted by: beethoven986

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 01/22/13 02:37 AM

The Baldwin Bp 165 is built in China. I'm pretty familiar with these instruments and they tend to need quite a bit of work before they can be considered good instruments, and the extent of this work is not something that would be done by a dealer. There are circumstances where this probably wouldn't matter a whole lot, but you yourself seem to prefer the Yamaha. If I were in your situation, I'd go with my gut.
Posted by: Schubertslieder

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 02/04/13 02:46 AM

I am a Baldwin fan. I appreciate the high quality sound the piano produces. Most Baldwin pianos I played in colleges were big grand pianos made in US. I have not played the piano you mentioned. I believe the model you are referring to, bp 165, is not made in US but made in China. However, if you truly like the sound, then that piano is for you, IMO. If you like the piano and the price, you should consider it. I am a believer in doing what feels right when it comes to pianos.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 02/04/13 09:15 AM

Originally Posted By: beethoven986
The Baldwin Bp 165 is built in China. I'm pretty familiar with these instruments and they tend to need quite a bit of work before they can be considered good instruments, and the extent of this work is not something that would be done by a dealer. There are circumstances where this probably wouldn't matter a whole lot, but you yourself seem to prefer the Yamaha. If I were in your situation, I'd go with my gut.


Why would you say the the work is not something that would be done by a dealer? We have 4 RPTs that do work for us.
Posted by: shirlkirsten

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 04/25/15 12:40 PM

I know this is old.. but i favored the Kawai GE-20--a well made piano.. IN JAPAN not Indonesia.. I had to sell when I moved to Berkeley. My tech, Israel Stein, also lauded the GE-20. You have to find one, probably used since they are no longer importing them.
Posted by: Enrico

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/03/15 08:38 PM

Just wanted to clear up some confusion of this post. The Baldwin for $9500 with serial number dgxxxxx was a dongbei factory piano with the Baldwin name on it. It would have sold for $10,000 ish. This factory has been closed for several years. The current model is a completely different Baldwin scale and has been reviewed very well from all resources. Baldwin has gotten their act together. They are competing at a very high level and have been compared favorably to Steinway and Yamaha. I just wanted to clarify because the current model 165 is much more money and a far superior piano to the dg serial number pianos. I see many teachers when asked to help a student literally just google the model and find something outdated And incorrect as this post and advise their students based on a post like this. Please always look at the date of a post and model and serial numbers too.
I hope this post Is helpful.
Posted by: Enrico

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/03/15 08:40 PM

See this review of current models.
http://www.pianobuyer.com/spring14/50.html
Posted by: Retsacnal

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/03/15 09:49 PM

Originally Posted By Enrico
I hope this post Is helpful.

This is an odd post...

There are many recent posts that laud the quality of the newest Baldwins. Commenting in a revived older thread that described the then poorer quality models, to say they are now better, is strange. But if your goal is to undo all the "damage" done in outdated threads, then you've got a lot of work to do.

In fact, here's an interesting comment in which a dealer advises someone not to buy a Baldwin because he'd "heard horror stories from technicians about Baldwin's lack of customer support." That might be a good place to start.

Just my 2 cents... wink
Posted by: Rich Galassini

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/04/15 05:48 AM

Originally Posted By Retsacnal
Originally Posted By Enrico
I hope this post Is helpful.

This is an odd post...


I think there is a difference in quality in the Baldwin pianos over the past few years. They are improving. However, I would be willing to bet that the explanation for the stark contrast in these posts is simply attributable to whether or not a dealer is carrying that product.
Posted by: Retsacnal

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/04/15 09:13 AM

Originally Posted By Rich Galassini
Originally Posted By Retsacnal
Originally Posted By Enrico
I hope this post Is helpful.

This is an odd post...


I think there is a difference in quality in the Baldwin pianos over the past few years. They are improving. However, I would be willing to bet that the explanation for the stark contrast in these posts is simply attributable to whether or not a dealer is carrying that product.

Wouldn't it be cruel irony if his customers wouldn't consider a given make because of the very disinformation he'd previously put out online when he preferred not to work the with the same manufacturer?
Posted by: Enrico

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/04/15 09:32 AM

That information was correct in 2010. Once again check post dates. Baldwin was In flux then and anyone who carried them would have told you the same. I understand you are not in the industry and can't comprehend what happens in this bizzare world. But let's focus on getting out correct information not trying to create "clever" irony that really is nothing more than disinformation. I carry virtually every brand available and have no agenda to push one of my brands over another. I saw confusion from a customer who found this post and figured I would help the community by clearing up a problem with this post. This is why I try not to go on chat rooms. Everyone suspects the worst of you and I see it all the time on these boards. Just take the information as information. The op was comparing a dongbei piano to a new Baldwin piano. These are different pianos at different price points. This has nothing to do with a hallet Davis post from 2010. In 2010 the hallet Davis and Baldwin were the same piano. Not anymore. And neither are made in dongbei. Let's all be less caddy and try to just give good factual information to the readers of this forum?
Posted by: turandot

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/04/15 12:10 PM

Originally Posted By Enrico
Just wanted to clear up some confusion of this post. The Baldwin for $9500 with serial number dgxxxxx was a dongbei factory piano with the Baldwin name on it. It would have sold for $10,000 ish. This factory has been closed for several years. The current model is a completely different Baldwin scale and has been reviewed very well from all resources. Baldwin has gotten their act together. They are competing at a very high level and have been compared favorably to Steinway and Yamaha. I just wanted to clarify because the current model 165 is much more money and a far superior piano to the dg serial number pianos. I see many teachers when asked to help a student literally just google the model and find something outdated And incorrect as this post and advise their students based on a post like this. Please always look at the date of a post and model and serial numbers too.
I hope this post Is helpful.


Other than the obvious point that this 'factual update' contains a fair bit of opinion, my only quibble is with the statement that "Baldwin has gotten their act together".

Gibson bought the old DongBei plant with the intention of making their grand pianos there. They certainly did not foresee the dispute with the Chinese government that would force them to turn instead to contract manufacturing. In contacting with Terence Ng and Parsons Music to make their grand pianos for them, they may have realized a higher level of product than what they could make initially at DongBei, but if they did wind up with a superior product, a more accurate characterization of the situation than "getting their act together" would be dumb luck: the bad luck of buying a factory that has not been a useful asset followed by the good luck of contracting with a maker who could do a better job than they could do themselves.

So, while you state correctly that the previous BP165 was a cheaper Dongbei piano with the Baldwin name on it, it would be equally correct to say that the current Baldwin BP165 is a more expensive Parsons piano with a Baldwin name on it. In terms of sourcing, this makes the current Balwin grand no different from a Brodmann.

The long-range issue (to me) is leverage. Baldwin has a grand old name and is doing well on the China domestic market. Parsons, while still largely unknown in the US market, is a powerhouse in China and is the manufacturer of the Baldwin grands. Brodmann has had its up and downs from being totally dependent on contract manufacturing. Baldwin controls its own vertical production and certainly has more marketing currency than a shell company like Brodmann. Buw what happens if Parsons decides to pursue its interests openly in the West under its Yangtze River brand or some other brand name concoction more palatable in the West? Will this affect its willingness to be a pipeline for other 'makers'?

http://www.musictrades.com/profile17.html
Posted by: Markarian

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/04/15 12:56 PM

This is why I wish more Chinese pianos were openly marketed as such, like Pearl River and Hailun.
Posted by: master88er

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/04/15 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By turandot


Gibson bought the old DongBei plant with the intention of making their grand pianos there. They certainly did not foresee the dispute with the Chinese government that would force them to turn instead to contract manufacturing. In contacting with Terence Ng and Parsons Music to make their grand pianos for them, they may have realized a higher level of product than what they could make initially at DongBei, but if they did wind up with a superior product, a more accurate characterization of the situation than "getting their act together" would be dumb luck: the bad luck of buying a factory that has not been a useful asset followed by the good luck of contracting with a maker who could do a better job than they could do themselves.

So, while you state correctly that the previous BP165 was a cheaper Dongbei piano with the Baldwin name on it, it would be equally correct to say that the current Baldwin BP165 is a more expensive Parsons piano with a Baldwin name on it. In terms of sourcing, this makes the current Balwin grand no different from a Brodmann.

The long-range issue (to me) is leverage. Baldwin has a grand old name and is doing well on the China domestic market. Parsons, while still largely unknown in the US market, is a powerhouse in China and is the manufacturer of the Baldwin grands..... Buw what happens if Parsons decides to pursue its interests openly in the West under its Yangtze River brand or some other brand name concoction more palatable in the West? Will this affect its willingness to be a pipeline for other 'makers'?



Okay, so I've posted this same response adnauseum but feel it is again warranted here.

DISCLOSURE: I carry both Brodmann and Baldwin products, so I am certainly biased.

Baldwin, as Tur correctly stated, does NOT contract out their upright production, but rather builds them in their own plant outside of Hong Kong. These pianos are built exactly to the specifications of their predecessors of the same model, and some new models have been introduced as well, completely designed by Baldwin.

The grand pianos, made by Parsons, are NOT stencil Parsons pianos. They ARE Baldwin scales, owned by Baldwin, and components in these pianos are completely under Baldwin control. In fact, an AMERICAN Baldwin engineer is present in China and quality control is completely AMERICAN employees, and EVERY Baldwin grand piano is personally inspected by an AMERICAN Baldwin employee. If you compare similar sized Brodmann or Yangtze River pianos side-by-side (as I have many times) to the Baldwin pianos coming from Parsons, there are easily distinguishable differences in tone and touch. They are not "Parsons pianos with a Baldwin name on it." Again, a similar situation exists at Foxconn in China, who builds the Iphone as well as cell phones for other brands. I know, this has been repeated over and over again by those of us selling the new Baldwin product, but it IS the truth and we would be remiss if we didn't mention it .

I do think it's appropriate to give Gibson their fair share of praise for refusing to accept Dongbei quality, and cease production, choosing instead to build their own factory for uprights (and controlling their own destiny), and for designing and engineering new grand pianos that are Baldwin through and through. The fact that the production is off shores, IMHO, shouldn't negate any brand prestige that Baldwin has.

If you disagree shocked , ask yourself "is a B1 a Yamaha and a K2 a Kawai?"
Posted by: turandot

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/04/15 05:38 PM

Master,

No need to get lathered up over this. Whether the newer BP165 is a better piano than the earlier BP165 is not an issue in my post. My point is that it's misleading to say that the piano Baldwin built at its own factory is a DongBei, while the piano which it is having built at someone else's factory by someone else's workforce is a Baldwin.

"Offshore" is also not an issue in my post. AFter all, we're comparing one Chinese piano product with another. Such comparisons are probably the future of the piano industry.
Posted by: master88er

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/04/15 06:55 PM

Originally Posted By turandot
it's misleading to say that the piano Baldwin built at its own factory is a DongBei, while the piano which it is having built at someone else's factory by someone else's workforce is a Baldwin.


Tur,

That is exactly where I respectfully disagree. Are you saying that the Iphone and Ipad are not Apple because they're built by Foxconn? Or that the Yamaha T1 was not a Yamaha because it was manufactured by Pearl River, or Boston is not a Steinway product because it's manufactured by Kawai? Or (uh oh) Cunningham is not a Cunningham because it's built by Hailun smirk ? OEM manufacturing is nothing new to any industry, but that doesn't mean the product produced is not a genuine product of the designer, creator and/or guarantor of the product.

MY point is whome that the pianos built by Parsons for Baldwin are genuine Baldwin pianos in every respect, from design to components to quality and sound, and the piano warranties are from Baldwin, not Parsons. Whether they are better or not than those produced by Baldwin in Arkansas or Cincinatti is subject to personal opinion.

Originally Posted By turandot
AFter all, we're comparing one Chinese piano product with another.


You mean like the Samsung S5 to the Apple Iphone 6? grin
Posted by: turandot

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/04/15 07:35 PM

Master,

I posted that I had a quibble -- and bear in mind that a quibble is not a monumental problem -- with this statement made by Enrico in his post.

"The Baldwin for $9500 with serial number dgxxxxx was a dongbei factory piano with the Baldwin name on it".

It seems to me that a piano bearing the Baldwin name and made in its own factory must certainly be a Baldwin. I see the quoted statement as attempting to distance Baldwin from its own product produced in its own factory.

How about this? Let's say that the DongBei BP165 is a Baldwin and the Parsons sourced BP165 is a Baldwin too. Is that a reasonable compromise?

As to I-Phones, I-Pads, and Samsung Galaxy product, I'm out of my element. I know very little about them, and the little I do know I wish that I didn't.
Posted by: master88er

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/04/15 07:39 PM

Originally Posted By turandot


As to I-Phones, I-Pads, and Samsung Galaxy product, I'm out of my element. I know very little about them, and the little I do know I wish that I didn't.


On that we can agree 150%!
Posted by: michaelha

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/04/15 07:40 PM

But Baldwin's story is a little different than Apple's. Baldwin pretty much laid off all their workers, filed bankruptcy and Gibson came in to buy their assets, probably mostly the brand, designs/IP. But it doesn't seem like there's much left of the Baldwin team. It might be more accurate to put Gibson on the pianos, or Baldwin/Gibson. Then Gibson would be thinking what did they pay for anyway... But it might give consumers more confidence to know a company like Gibson is going to stand behind those pianos, than a slightly complicated story about a bankrupt Baldwin that moved manufacturing to China, etc...
Posted by: master88er

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/04/15 08:04 PM

Originally Posted By michaelha
But Baldwin's story is a little different than Apple's. Baldwin pretty much laid off all their workers, filed bankruptcy and Gibson came in to buy their assets, probably mostly the brand, designs/IP. But it doesn't seem like there's much left of the Baldwin team. It might be more accurate to put Gibson on the pianos, or Baldwin/Gibson. Then Gibson would be thinking what did they pay for anyway... But it might give consumers more confidence to know a company like Gibson is going to stand behind those pianos, than a slightly complicated story about a bankrupt Baldwin that moved manufacturing to China, etc...



As usual, your comment is a misinformed mischaracterization. Gibson didn't simply buy the assets of Baldwin, "closing the factory and laying off workers." In fact, Gibson (Henry Juszkiewicz) actively ran the factories in Conway and Trumann for nearly a decade before deciding on his course of action, and the Trumann facility remains open to this day. Under your ridiculous theory, Steinway should change its name to Selmer, and Kawai to Mitsubishi.

Juszkiewicz did not want to go the route of Steinway, where Baldwin pianos became un-affordable, the quality questionable and burning money. Steinway decided to go “off-shore” to build pianos of different quality that they designed (Boston, Essex). Baldwin/Gibson, however, decided that they wanted to maintain their traditional quality and approach to sound and, like Apple Computers, wanted to control all aspects of production and, most importantly, engineering. Initially, Baldwin purchased the Dongbei facility in China and they imported instruments from this facility while still building the Artist grands in Truman, Ark. They were not happy with the Dongbei products or labor force, and the Truman costs continued to surge dramatically, putting the pianos out of reach of most consumers. At great expense, and with a LOT of courage, Juszkiewicz decided to start over, training and owning his own work-force and factory in Zhongshan (near Hong Kong). As previously stated, this factory currently only builds the Baldwin uprights, and to identical specs of the Trumann factory. When that facility was complete and fully trained, they addressed grand pianos.

The Parsons factory in Yichang is amongst the most respected OEM piano factories in Asia. The company has long been known for building quality pianos for your precious Kawai, as well as Wilh. Steinberg, C. Bechstein, Brodmann and others - each to the individual manufacturers specifications and quality control. The fact is that Barnabas Fekete, a longtime Baldwin employee, oversees EVERY piano built by Parsons... and he's paid by Baldwin, as are others invovled in the production.
Posted by: michaelha

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/04/15 08:33 PM

Originally Posted By master88er


As usual, your comment is a misinformed mischaracterization. Gibson didn't simply buy the assets of Baldwin, "closing the factory and laying off workers." In fact, Gibson (Henry Juszkiewicz) actively ran the factories in Conway and Trumann for nearly a decade before deciding on his course of action, and the Trumann facility remains open to this day. Under your ridiculous theory, Steinway should change its name to Selmer, and Kawai to Mitsubishi.



As usual your comparisons are inaccurate. Steinway didn't layoff a bunch of workers and buy factories in China when Paulson took them private. Not sure what the relationship with Kawai & Mitsubishi but either way, Kawai makes the majority of their pianos in their original factory in Japan.


Baldwin stopped manufacturing new pianos at its Trumann, Arkansas factory in December, 2008. They have retained a small staff to build custom grands and to finish numerous artist grands which are ordered.[2] They are planning to continue production of the pianos as demand picks up.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Piano_Company#History
Posted by: phacke

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/04/15 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By turandot

Gibson bought the old DongBei plant with the intention of making their grand pianos there. They certainly did not foresee the dispute with the Chinese government that would force them to turn instead to contract manufacturing.


Sorry, what was that dispute about?

Thank you-
Posted by: Tominator

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/05/15 12:31 AM

what would you consider a fair price for a new BP 178?

I really like the sound and playability of it and am thinking of finally pulling the trigger

Thanks in advance for the response
Posted by: turandot

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/05/15 03:12 AM

Phacke,

I'll take a pass on your question and hope that master88er or Enrico answers it. I've heard contradictory information, all hearsay. I don't know if any of it is true.

Originally Posted By Tominator
what would you consider a fair price for a new BP 178?
I really like the sound and playability of it and am thinking of finally pulling the trigger

Thanks in advance for the response


I'll assume that you're in the US.

I think it starts with your mindset and your determination of what is fair. If you really like that piano well enough to buy it on the spot, you need to convince the seller that you are that serious. To determine what you think is fair, start with Larry Fine's SMP price for that piano. If you're unfamiliar with Fine's work on pricing, read his introduction to piano pricing on pages 201 to 203 of Piano Buyer. Then apply what you read there to his SMP.

Here's a link.
http://www.pianobuyer.com/spring15/201.html

As of February of this year, Fine's SMP on a BP178 in basic black was 23k. Now it's possible that wholesale has crept up a bit since February, but early summer is the slowest season for piano sales so let's call it a wash.

Each 10% you can chop off that 23k is 2.3k. Fine reckons that most deals are struck somewhere between 10% and 30% off the SMP. So, for a piano with an SMP of 23k, 10% off brings the price to 20.7k and 30% off yields a net price of just over 16k. You can determine what you think is fair by settling your limit somewhere between those two prices.

To begin the mating ritual of price negotiation, you want to find out what price the retailer wishes to start from. If he wants to set the initial bar at full MSRP, negotiation on that piano will be tiresome and probably unproductive. If his starting point is SMP, chances are that you and the retailer can arrive at a price where neither of you is completely happy, but you're both satisfied.

That starting point for negotiation is really important with Baldwin pianos because despite saying nice things about Baldwin's current production, Fine does not take Baldwin's MSRP prices seriously. His SMP prices are substantially lower than Baldwin's MSRP prices. On your piano, the MSRP is around 36k. That's 13k over the SMP.

To make things clear to the retailer, you can state at the beginning of negotiation that you will negotiate only from the SMP. He can refuse in which case you can visit another Baldwin retailer.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/05/15 10:28 AM

I am posting this as a representative of Piano Buyer:

I think there is some confusion about our development and use of the SMP. The 10%-30% discount range is to allow for variations in pricing due to the varying costs of business in different markets and with differing types of operations. (LA, NYC, and Toledo for example.) The volume of the piano dealership also varies widely and directly affects pricing.

Dealers necessarily price their instruments at a level that will result in a net profit. For some, discounting even 20% would lead to bankruptcy while others might be able to thrive at that price.

It is somewhat unreasonable to expect a big discount in markets where market conditions keep overhead high.
Posted by: Tominator

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/05/15 10:50 AM

Thanks to turandot and Steve for your responses
Posted by: turandot

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/05/15 01:24 PM

Tominator,

Steve's point is valid. Even the wholesale price that different dealers pay can vary. There is an extensive list of potential variables in that Piano buyer link I provided.

The real key in the case of Baldwin is whether the retailer recognizes the SMP as a valid starting point. Baldwin, along with some other Chinese brands such as Brodmann (built in the same factory) and Perzina, shows a dramatic difference between the company's stated MSRP and Fine's SMP. I'm fairly certain that Steve himself would respect the SMP as a valid measure considering his position at Piano Buyer and comments he has made on this forum.

However, that does not mean that the validity of the SMP will be accepted by every dealer who is faced with a substantial difference between MSRP and SMP. If confronted with a dealer who tells you that the SMP is unrealistic, it's probably best to move on.

Things would be different if you were shopping one of the many brands where Fine's SMP and the manufacturer's MSRP are identical or at least close. But that's not at all the case with Baldwin.
Posted by: master88er

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/05/15 02:02 PM

Originally Posted By turandot
Tominator,

Steve's point is valid. Even the wholesale price that different dealers pay can vary. There is an extensive list of potential variables in that Piano buyer link I provided.

The real key in the case of Baldwin is whether the retailer recognizes the SMP as a valid starting point. Baldwin, along with some other Chinese brands such as Brodmann (built in the same factory) and Perzina, shows a dramatic difference between the company's stated MSRP and Fine's SMP. I'm fairly certain that Steve himself would respect the SMP as a valid measure considering his position at Piano Buyer and comments he has made on this forum.

However, that does not mean that the validity of the SMP will be accepted by every dealer who is faced with a substantial difference between MSRP and SMP. If confronted with a dealer who tells you that the SMP is unrealistic, it's probably best to move on.

Things would be different if you were shopping one of the many brands where Fine's SMP and the manufacturer's MSRP are identical or at least close. But that's not at all the case with Baldwin.


Steve's comments are on point, but Tur is not considering another very important factor: When a model of ANY manufacturer is particularly in demand, and not generally readily available for a dealer to replace, a steep discount would be hard to come by.

IF you were looking at the BP165 or BP148, the figures Tur is suggesting might be valid. But on the BP178 or BP190, well, good luck even finding one in the finish you want.
Posted by: KurtZ

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/05/15 02:10 PM

Russell,

I have no interest in the (minor) brouhaha about what or what isn't a Baldwin but I am looking for a clarification; When you say that they are Baldwin scales are they classic scale designs or newly developed by an employee of Baldwin?

No agenda, no gotcha, I'm really just curious.

Kurt
Posted by: turandot

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/05/15 02:31 PM

Originally Posted By master88er
Tur is not considering another very important factor: When a model of ANY manufacturer is particularly in demand, and not generally readily available for a dealer to replace, a steep discount would be hard to come by.


Master's post brings to mind two other points regarding negotiation.

1.) If the dealer doesn't have the piano you want for sale on the floor, move on. The sales floor is where the action is. Special orders are a whole other matter. You want the piano you're negotiating to be under your nose.

2.) Dealers have the right to refuse, to simply say no. However, in practice they much prefer to prove to you that you are wrong. They might tell you that the model you want is scorching hot and damned near impossible to replace. It's an ancient time-honored strategy that might give you a sense of urgency. They might tell you they would need special permission from the factory to get even close to that SMP. They might tell you that Fine's SMP barely covers their wholesale. They might even imply that you're a doofus for believing in Fine's SMP prices.

The dealer has years of practice in this arena. You don't. That's why it's better to cordially forego negotiation and move on.
Posted by: master88er

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/05/15 03:27 PM

Originally Posted By KurtZ
When you say that they are Baldwin scales are they classic scale designs or newly developed by an employee of Baldwin?

Kurt


That depends on what your definition of is is whistle

Seriously, it does depend on what you mean by "Classic." The scales used by Baldwin did change through the years; for example, the Concert grand had many iterations. So, to try to answer your question reasonably, the scales on the grand pianos are NOT the same as those used when the factory in Conway/Truman ceased producing instruments (2008), but they are the same on the uprights. The "Parsons" Baldwin grands have new scale designs based largely on earlier Baldwin scales (1920's-30's) of pianos of similar size, and these were completely designed by Baldwin USA employees.

I hope the above was helpful eek
Posted by: KurtZ

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/06/15 12:07 PM

Originally Posted By master88er
Originally Posted By KurtZ
When you say that they are Baldwin scales are they classic scale designs or newly developed by an employee of Baldwin?

Kurt


That depends on what your definition of is is whistle

Seriously, it does depend on what you mean by "Classic." The scales used by Baldwin did change through the years; for example, the Concert grand had many iterations. So, to try to answer your question reasonably, the scales on the grand pianos are NOT the same as those used when the factory in Conway/Truman ceased producing instruments (2008), but they are the same on the uprights. The "Parsons" Baldwin grands have new scale designs based largely on earlier Baldwin scales (1920's-30's) of pianos of similar size, and these were completely designed by Baldwin USA employees.

I hope the above was helpful eek


It is helpful. Thank you for the reply.

Kurt
Posted by: phacke

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/09/15 12:06 AM

Originally Posted By master88er


The "Parsons" Baldwin grands have new scale designs based largely on earlier Baldwin scales (1920's-30's) of pianos of similar size, and these were completely designed by Baldwin USA employees.


Greetings,
Did the rim shape and the bridge placement change with these in any important way? I think of 'scale' as speaking length and wire diameters (I guess there may be other definitions), but rim shape, soundboard nature, and bridge placement changes can make these 'scale' items much less major considering these other design parameters, which change tone behavior, such as with soundboard impedance.

Best wishes-
Posted by: phacke

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/10/15 01:43 AM

Originally Posted By phacke
Originally Posted By master88er


The "Parsons" Baldwin grands have new scale designs based largely on earlier Baldwin scales (1920's-30's) of pianos of similar size, and these were completely designed by Baldwin USA employees.


Greetings,
Did the rim shape and the bridge placement change with these in any important way? I think of 'scale' as speaking length and wire diameters (I guess there may be other definitions), but rim shape, soundboard nature, and bridge placement changes can make these 'scale' items much less major considering these other design parameters, which change tone behavior, such as with soundboard impedance.

Best wishes-


I wonder if anybody knows if the rim shape and the bridge placement changed with these in any important way.
Posted by: phacke

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 06/13/15 02:15 AM

Reminder.
Posted by: Andrys

Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? - 08/25/15 04:49 PM

Originally Posted By master88er
Okay, so I've posted this same response adnauseum but feel it is again warranted here.

DISCLOSURE: I carry both Brodmann and Baldwin products, so I am certainly biased.

Baldwin, as Tur correctly stated, does NOT contract out their upright production, but rather builds them in their own plant outside of Hong Kong. These pianos are built exactly to the specifications of their predecessors of the same model, and some new models have been introduced as well, completely designed by Baldwin.

The grand pianos, made by Parsons, are NOT stencil Parsons pianos. They ARE Baldwin scales, owned by Baldwin, and components in these pianos are completely under Baldwin control. In fact, an AMERICAN Baldwin engineer is present in China and quality control is completely AMERICAN employees, and EVERY Baldwin grand piano is personally inspected by an AMERICAN Baldwin employee.


Your posting is more than warranted. Excellent info that most of us would not see otherwise.