Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano

Posted by: Keith D Kerman

Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/09/13 08:53 PM

If you buy a new Steingraeber, you will regret it. I don't know how else to put this. Consider yourself warned by one who knows.

We received a shipment of new Steingraebers on Wednesday of this week. I can no longer sleep, eat or concentrate.

On Wednesday, we opened a 212 and a 192. After working a 12 hour day, in which most of it was spent doing mind numbing tasks, I made the mistake of sitting down at the 212.

I blinked and 2 hours had gone by. It was close to 11 pm and I didn't care. I hadn't eaten since breakfast and I didn't care. All I wanted to do was play this piano. I was smitten. Bach, Brahms, Mozart, Bartok, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff and more got played and each sounded better than the last. I enjoyed playing the piano. I wanted to practice. I wanted to play. The piano was inspiring me. It was teaching me. It was helping me sound better than I deserved, yet at the same time showing me how very far I had to go. I had thoughts of giving concerts. I was ready to toss it all, find a cave somewhere, and it would just be me and a Steingraeber and I would do nothing but practice, play and compose.

I fell in love with that piano. Seriously. Love. I was so deep in love that I asked that Steingraeber to marry me. I knew I wasn't worthy, but I thought I could become a better man if only that piano would have me.

Well, fortunately for me, it didn't respond to my proposal, because today we finally got around to opening up the 232. I would like to express my response to that piano, but this is a family website.
What the heck. HOLY MOTHER @#(*@#(@&#(@&#@(#&@(#&@*&#(@&# how is it possible?
That 232 is so good, my head exploded. Literally. That is the only reason I stopped playing. KABOOM. Head exploded. It is some kind of miracle that I can even write this with an exploded head. It shouldn't be possible. I think I am summoning my last bits of strength to warn others, so they don't share the same fate as me.

Please listen. Unless you want to end up wanting to marry a piano, while no longer being able to take care of your normal responsibilities such as concentrating at work and being productive, not to mention completely ignoring your basic human needs such as eating and sleeping, quite possibly ending up living in a cave by yourself with only a Steingraeber piano, and spending what is left of your life with an exploded head, PLEASE DO NOT BUY A STEINGRAEBER PIANO.

heck, it is playing with fire to even try one.

I know for some of you this will fall on deaf ears, but if I can just save one person from my fate, it will all be worth it.

I would write more, but I have to leave. The only hardware store that sells surgical quality duct tape for holding one's skull together is closing soon, and if the rest of my brain falls out, I might drool on the Steingraebers as I play them and that just seems wrong somehow. Although, I suppose that might disuade anyone from buying one of them and taking them from me. Mine! All MINE!!!!!!! MuahahahHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

Well, if you have gotten this far, you cannot plead ignorance. Whatever fate you suffer at the hands of a Steingraeber piano is your own fault.

You have been warned.
Posted by: Sam Rose

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/09/13 09:03 PM

HAHAHAHAHA Brilliant advertorial! Now I want one!

I'll be your best friend if you give me one! Please?

Or maybe I'll heed your advice and never play on a Steingraeber. smile
Posted by: AJF

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/09/13 09:11 PM

You salesmen are getting craftier and craftier with your sales pitches.
I remember when I was a kid my parents would get me and my sister to eat broccoli and spinach by not putting any on our plates for dinner and when my sister and I asked why we didn't get any they would reply "You don't want this, it grown-up food". Of course that made us want it all the more smile
Posted by: Rich D.

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/09/13 09:44 PM

Clever, and here I thought your true love was for Mason Hamlin.
Posted by: CHAS

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/09/13 09:55 PM

Hope you used protection.
Posted by: ju5t1n-h

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/09/13 10:00 PM

haha now that was a funny read!
Posted by: UK Paul UK

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/09/13 10:21 PM

Haha, good post! :-)
Posted by: Scott Hamlin

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/09/13 10:32 PM

Your love-child will be beautiful!
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 12:26 AM

Too late, Keith. smile
Posted by: 4evrBeginR

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 01:51 AM

Thanks for the warning. I will definitely stay away from any Steingraebers. I like my head, and don't wish for it to explode.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 07:54 AM

The first time I played a Steingraeber, I also suffered an attack of EHS. I have never recovered. I now carry industrial strength duct tape with me when I play them.

(Exploding Head Syndrome)
Posted by: Dara

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 09:48 AM

"Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano"

I most likely won't be buying one, but I'd love to play one.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 10:00 AM

I've still never had the (dubious ? wink ) pleasure of playing a Steingraeber. But when I visit Bayreuth next year, I'll make sure to bring a roll of strong duct tape with me - not just to protect my head from EHS when visiting the Steingraeber factory, but also to shield me from SAS (Self-Aggrandizement Syndrome, not Special Air Service) when listening to Wagner in the concert venue he built solely for his own music.....
Posted by: Steve Chandler

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 10:28 AM

Sadly I played a Steingraeber ay Allegro Pianos last summer. My life hasn't been the same since, okay that's a bit of an exaggeration, but it was a wonderfully responsive instrument to play. So much color, and like a super car just touch the gas and it jumped. Only the Estonia 225 next to it (and maybe the 210 downstairs) was equally responsive.
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 11:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
I was smitten. Bach, Brahms, Mozart, Bartok, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff and more got played and each sounded better than the last. I enjoyed playing the piano. I wanted to practice. I wanted to play. The piano was inspiring me. It was teaching me. It was helping me sound better than I deserved, yet at the same time showing me how very far I had to go. I had thoughts of giving concerts.


Selling the illusion of grandeur or suffering from it? Only an uploaded performance video will provide a definitive answer.

If it's selling the illusion, the pitch is to a target audience with a disproportinate amount of it. Logic indicates that the time to replace a piano is when the performance capability of the player begins to exceed, match, or at least approach the performance capability of the instrument. It makes sense. The player's capability should, at least theoretically, be on an upward trajectory. The instrument's capability is either static with good maintencnace or in decline.

Logic, however, is insufficient to the needs of the luxury goods market, and can be its enemy. Without an illusion of grandeur, the piano upgrade market would be next to nowhere and what's left of the piano industry in the West would be in worse shape than it is.

Personally, I dislike had traumana analogies, no matter how far-fetched.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 11:50 AM

Will this do, T-dot? You won't find this one on the PianoCraft floor, though, since it's been carried off by Steingraeber pirates:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUAy-mDIozs

The "about" section is missing from this video, but I can tell you that it's a Steingraeber C-212.

Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 12:31 PM

Harumph-N-Dot strikes again
Posted by: Entheo

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 01:24 PM

i can't help but wonder what the reaction would have been had this topic come from jeff at grand piano haus (also a steingraeber dealer).
Posted by: Goof

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 01:30 PM

Ah! could not agree more.
I did post some time back that when I visited Hurstwood farm Pianos in Kent U.K. (they fit carbonfiber sound boards to Steigreaber), I was moved to tears by the sound of the pianos. Not me playing but friend with a B.Mus degree.
Posted by: Keith D Kerman

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 01:30 PM

Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
I was smitten. Bach, Brahms, Mozart, Bartok, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff and more got played and each sounded better than the last. I enjoyed playing the piano. I wanted to practice. I wanted to play. The piano was inspiring me. It was teaching me. It was helping me sound better than I deserved, yet at the same time showing me how very far I had to go. I had thoughts of giving concerts.


Selling the illusion of grandeur or suffering from it? Only an uploaded performance video will provide a definitive answer.


Hmm……of all the terrible things I suffered from spending time playing on new Steingraebers, it didn’t occur to me that they may also have caused me to suffer from the illusion of grandeur! That is a very excellent and insightful observation, and I personally thank you as you have given even more support to my original post. Sharing your insight here may have saved some hapless innocent from serious risk from buying or even trying a Steingraeber piano, the very thing I am so desperately trying to protect pianists and piano lovers from!
I will add it to my list of warnings and perhaps someone who might ignore my cautionary tale, will be persuaded by your diagnosis.

To be even more protective, I think a warning label on all new Steingraebers should say the following:

Buying or even playing this Steingraeber piano may lead to a desire to marry a piano, neglecting your normal responsibilities, ignoring basic human needs such as eating and sleeping, moving into a cave with only a Steingraeber piano, spending the remainder of your life with an exploded head, and worst of all, suffering from the illusion of grandeur.

Originally Posted By: turandot
If it's selling the illusion, the pitch is to a target audience with a disproportinate amount of it. Logic indicates that the time to replace a piano is when the performance capability of the player begins to exceed, match, or at least approach the performance capability of the instrument. It makes sense. The player's capability should, at least theoretically, be on an upward trajectory.


YES YES YES!!! 1000 times yes. Please, everyone, pay head to Turandot here. Decisions regarding Music, art, self expression, happiness, fulfillment, joy etc should be made logically. If your performance capability as a pianist does not approach the performance capability of the instrument you are interested in owning, DO NOT BUY THAT PIANO! It is illogical. And this is yet another good reason not to buy a new Steingraeber piano. There are super virtuosos like Cyprien Katsaris, Arcadi Volodos, and Marc- Andre Hamelin who can’t outplay a Steingraeber, but at least they push it more than most. I would say that if you can’t at least play the Chopin etudes that they are playing Godowsky transcriptions of, don’t even try a Steingraeber.
Of course, there are many other pianos out there that are likely to offer a performance capability beyond the players. Everyone, make sure you test this before committing to any piano. If your piano has the potential for repetition, soft playing, subtlety, expressiveness, powerful playing, speed beyond your current performance capability, GET RID OF IT! Only if your calculated eventual ultimate pianistic ability matches or nearly matches the full performance capability of a piano, should you consider that piano. It is only logical. Do not consider the illogical such as how much you will enjoy playing on that piano for years and years. It is illogical to think that if one owns a piano with performance capability beyond their personal pianistic ability that they might enjoy playing that piano so much that they play more, listen more intensely, learn from the colors, dynamic range, clarity etc offered on that piano that may not exist on other pianos. Reject the idea that even if you never get better, never play more than you are playing now, it is worthwhile to enjoy to the fullest the time and energy you are spending at your instrument making music.
For that matter, stop buying salt, pepper, or other spices that do nothing but waste money merely to make your food taste better. Stop spending money decorating your house in a way that pleases you. It doesn’t keep the rain out any better! Stop reading books that you enjoy. Heck, as I think about it, even spending time with music in any way is illogical.

Originally Posted By: turandot
The instrument's capability is either static with good maintencnace or in decline.


I would say the instrument’s capability is static or in decline with minimum maintenance. Beyond minimum maintenance, the piano should improve. However, any piano maintenance is a waste of time and money since it only serves to help the piano owner better enjoy their piano, and possibly it may even further the divide between the player’s capability and the instrument’s, and that is illogical.

Originally Posted By: turandot
Logic, however, is insufficient to the needs of the luxury goods market, and can be its enemy. Without an illusion of grandeur, the piano upgrade market would be next to nowhere and what's left of the piano industry in the West would be in worse shape than it is.


Logic is insufficient to the needs of everything that is sold that does nothing more than offer the possibility of some positive emotion for the buyer. That is why the Vulcan market is so hard to crack.

Originally Posted By: turandot
Personally, I dislike had traumana analogies, no matter how far-fetched.


You will be relieved to know that it seems that my initial post was not 100% accurate. After consulting with the clerk at the hardware store about which duct tape to use to patch together my new Steingraeber inspired exploded head, it turns out that my head did not actually explode. The hardware store clerk downgraded my injury to a severally blown mind.
Posted by: fingers

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 01:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Entheo
i can't help but wonder what the reaction would have been had this topic come from jeff at grand piano haus (also a steingraeber dealer).


Interesting.
I can't help but wonder what the reaction would have been had this topic come from a Steinway dealer. The words marketing, hype, blah, blah , blah come to mind.

Personally, I enjoyed Keith's post. smile


fingers
Posted by: KurtZ

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 02:05 PM

What if NORBERT had posted this? Or Ori? Oh, the humanity!

Welcome to Piano Dealer Farm.

KZ
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 02:46 PM

Keith has posted nothing different from what anybody who has travelled German factories for years knowing their products would have said:

These are and always have been outstanding pianos in a class of their own. Nothing new really..

German piano companies, as do their car makers, fiercely compete among themselves for excellence: we were equally stunned when just receiving our last Sauter grands.

At same time it's impossible to identify "the finest of them all" - other than perhaps on a strictly personal basis.

And alos 'model'...

Any dealer for Steingraeber like Keith should be congratulated for offering such exclusive,truly stunning top quality make.

Problem is that only few people know enough about these pianos or have seen enough of them "not" to be surprised.

I for myself have never been able to establish who "the finest of them all" would be - not that this would matter anyways - coming each time to a slightly different conclusion...

Frankfurt Messe anybody?

Norbert smile
Posted by: wouter79

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 03:34 PM

LOL, I did play a Steingraeber before I played and bought my current Grotrian, so maybe we should also warn everyone not to even try a Grotrian? :p
Posted by: Stryder87

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 03:45 PM

This was not even close to what I expected this post to be about. It's just full of awesome. thumb

It's nice to see that I'm not the only one who likes to express myself that way. Now I must ask though...

Tell us how you REALLY feel? ha
Posted by: UK Paul UK

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 03:49 PM

Hmmm..... well when i am grade 8 level and working towards a diploma my lady has already agreed to my getting a grand.... certain things will need to happen before i can justify 50000 on one though :-) like 50000.... :'(
Posted by: Bob Newbie

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 04:11 PM

Wow ! keith I thought you were going to break out into a song! smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8SZng55T0
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 05:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
Keith has posted nothing different from what anybody who has travelled German factories for years knowing their products would have said:

These are and always have been outstanding pianos in a class of their own. Nothing new really..
The point of the post was to be humorous not to reveal something new.

Originally Posted By: Norbert
German piano companies, as do their car makers, fiercely c0mpete among themselves for excellence: we were equally stunned when just receiving our last Sauter grands.
Self promotion.

Originally Posted By: Norbert
Any dealer for Steingraeber like Keith should be congratulated for offering such exclusive,truly stunning top quality make.
I don't think the quality of a dealer is determined by the prestige of the makes they offer.
Posted by: Plowboy

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 06:40 PM

Thanks for the warning, Keith, but rest assured at $90,000 for a 5'7" grand, I'll never afford a Steingraeber.

Now, Field's Pianos in Orange County has a new 2002 dark cherry S&S model M for sale for $49,000. That's a possibility.

edited for atrocious spelling.
Posted by: malkin

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 07:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
...You will be relieved to know that it seems that my initial post was not 100% accurate. After consulting with the clerk at the hardware store about which duct tape to use to patch together my new Steingraeber inspired exploded head, it turns out that my head did not actually explode. The hardware store clerk downgraded my injury to a severally blown mind.


Always good to get a second opinion.
smile
Posted by: Ken Knapp

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 07:34 PM

I think this is a fun topic and Keith has done a good job with giving us a little humor. If this were an every day occurrence, then maybe things would be looked at differently.

If we can't have fun on here then I will turn in my Piano World Secret Decoder Ring.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 10:11 PM

Quote:
I think this is a fun topic and Keith has done a good job with giving us a little humor. If this were an every day occurrence, then maybe things would be looked at differently.

If we can't have fun on here then I will turn in my Piano World Secret Decoder Ring.


thumb

P.S. For those wishing to disagree, there's always the "Funeral Home Forum"....

http://www.simefuneralforum.com/

Norbert smirk
Posted by: Rickster

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 10:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Ken Knapp
I think this is a fun topic and Keith has done a good job with giving us a little humor. If this were an every day occurrence, then maybe things would be looked at differently.

If we can't have fun on here then I will turn in my Piano World Secret Decoder Ring.

Amen! smile

My motto... pianos are a lot of fun; better yet, Piano World is a lot of fun! smile

Rick
Posted by: RJ10

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/10/13 10:24 PM

Keith - Thanks for the fun post. I was a bit worried when I read the subject, but it turned out okay in the end. Always good to hear excitement and praise for finely made pianos. I, too, have had the opportunity to test drive the Steingraeber pianos and found them to be wonderfully responsive with the combination of a very focused tone and a wide tonal palette. Very enjoyable to play.
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 01:00 AM

Keith,

Thank you for your lengthly reply. It's good to see you get a workout at the keyboard (computer keyboard, that is). I'm afraid you missed my point completely though.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a piano purchase that exceeds logic. I never said there was. What is wrong is someone selling such a piano rattling off names of the composers he played on that piano, each performance better than the last, while giving no clue as to what made the piano special.

You write you were stunned by both pianos. You have written in the past that you personally select your Steingraebers at the factory showroom in Germany. In the course of selecting them, one might assume that you play them. I wonder why opening what you had previously selected would stun you?

You're a piano seller. You may be a player as well, but when Piano Craft crafts a video, it's Shaun, not Keith. I even recall a video you uploaded here with Sam Powell playing some neat stuff on a Steinway your shop had worked on. Yet I find no signs of musical life on the Internet of the guy who rattles off "Bach, Brahms, Mozart, Bartok, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff and more and each sounded better than the last" What is it? Shyness?

The challenge in my post was to put your piano keys where you put your computer keys -- on display in a performance video. If you've got the chops, flaunt them. If not, then you're just selling the old illlusion that the better piano in and of itself makes you a better pianist. It may make the same performance sound better, or more palatable at least, but if the piano is the real thing, harnessing its capability will involve a learning curve. Price of ownership gets you nowhere as a player.

A video might also provide a clue as to what makes these two partiulcar Steingraebers stand out. Surely it's not Piano Craft's renowned 'customization' since these babies are fresh from their cartes. What exactly it is would be useful to know since you've provided nothing in that regard with your computer keyboard.
Posted by: Keith D Kerman

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 02:09 AM

Originally Posted By: turandot
I'm afraid you missed my point completely though.


Err........I got your point exactly. Your point was to suck the fun out of this thread. And you have succeeded. You have sucked the fun out of what eveyone else understood instantly to be me goofing around and trying to be entertaining with sincere enthusiasm, and yes, shoot me, a bit of intentionally obvious salesmanship which was pretty much pointed out in just about every response starting with the first . Way to go thumb

FWIW, Shaun Tirrell flew to Bayreuth to choose these instruments, so I hadn't yet played them. I only had reports that they were, well, mind blowing and beyond what I had previously experienced with Steingraebers.

I never said "performance", you added that. I never said anything about the quality of my playing. Each composer sounding better than the last is not a comment on my playing. It is a comment on how the Steingraeber worked great with the music of these different composers. It is a comment on my growing excitement the longer I played.
If I said I tried on several different suits, Armani, Hugo Boss, Ralph Lauren etc in front of a special mirror, with special lighting, and each looked better than the last, it in no way implies that I think I look like Brad Pitt. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you misunderstood what I wrote, and/or what I wrote was unclear.

As for my putting a video of me playing for all to see, I'd like to do that. If I feel I have something good enough, I'll do just that.
In the mean time, you have nearly 7000 posts here, many alluding to your deep understanding of the relationship or lack thereof between the quality of one's playing and the quality of the piano on which they are playing. I can't remember ever seeing a video of you playing. If you put a video of you playing the piano here for all to see, it just might inspire me to do the same.
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 02:45 AM

Quote:
you have nearly 7000 posts here, many alluding to your deep understanding of the relationship or lack thereof between the quality of one's playing and the quality of the piano on which they are playing


That's news to me. I guess you got the post count right although it's usually another member who refers to post counts and estimates how many were of a particular type.

My 'deep' understanding is that the player makes the music and is supported to different degrees by different pianos. I don't feel that's very deep at all. It's fundamental. It's also pretty obvious that a top notch player on a mediocre piano is far more interesting to listen to than a hack on a top grade piano.

Today I went to hear Ben Grosvenor. He has it. He's still a little rough on the edges, but he has it. The piano was an average Steinway D, not a fussed-over C&A, just average. It didn't matter. He has it. He made it work. The piano disappeared into the music. The link was between the pianist and the music. He's an artist, a very young one, but he's an artist.

You sell pianos. Your 'fun' was to promote your new arrivals at your place of business. If your intent is to sell them, do it honestly and at least give some information about what makes them special. If your intent is not to sell them, explain what your intent is.

As for what everyone else thinks, it's irrelevant to my honest opinion. I guess it's not to you.
Posted by: Keith D Kerman

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 03:32 AM

Tdot, you win. I don't have the time or energy for this and apparently I also lack the common sense to avoid getting provoked into this type of nonsense. After being away from here for quite a while, I was enjoying participating again. There is nothing enjoyable or of any value with this exchange. I didn't remember you as being so humorless.
If I choose to participate here again, I would respectfully request that you just ignore me. I will give you the same courtesy. If you don't respond again in this thread, I will take it that you agree to my request.
Posted by: schwammerl

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 05:01 AM

Wanting to add something positive and at least as spectacular as Keith's experience with Steingraeber: 'The Ring Project' set up by Dynaudio, the famous Danish loudspeaker manufacturer on the occasion of the Wagner year in Bayreuth.

The 'Ring of the Nibelung' in a transcription for two pinaos by Hermann Behn (1914) is performed on two Steingraeber Liszt concert grands.

For a complete overview of the project, see:
Dynaudio press service site

Should you want to hear some sound samples or by the CD (released January 2013), see:
Dynaudio records

schwammerl.
Posted by: rocklandpiano

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 06:19 AM

Steingraeber and Hurstwood Farm Pianos have a very close relationship.
Steingraeber build what is recognised as the World's most technically advanced piano, the Steingraeber-Phoenix under licence from Hurstwood Farm.
The special features of this piano are bridge agraffes that transmit vibration energy from the strings to the soundboard much more efficiently than conventional bridge pins , yet at the same time do this without the ususal major stress load downbearing on the soundboard suffered by traditional build pianos.
Posted by: lilylady

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 06:58 AM

I got it!

Having met Keith, having played several Steingraebers, having been to PianoCraft and the Steingraeber factory, I got it!

Tdot, you are a sourpuss today.

KK, I totally understood the excitement of losing time and being in the moment of discovering what a piano can do to inspire you. And I thought your post funny and sincere! Yes, I know your schooling, believe your talent, and realize your enthusiasm as a salesperson is sincere. You love music. You love playing and you love your instruments of choice. And what's not to love about a Steingraeber?

I have always enjoyed your posts here. Don't stop now!

And, believe you me, I'd have a Steingraeber in a flash, if I could afford one! Now, do tell, have you decided which of these going to your place?
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 07:33 AM

Originally Posted By: schwammerl
Wanting to add something positive and at least as spectacular as Keith's experience with Steingraeber: 'The Ring Project' set up by Dynaudio, the famous Danish loudspeaker manufacturer on the occasion of the Wagner year in Bayreuth.

The 'Ring of the Nibelung' in a transcription for two pinaos by Hermann Behn (1914) is performed on two Steingraeber Liszt concert grands.

For a complete overview of the project, see:
Dynaudio press service site

Should you want to hear some sound samples or by the CD (released January 2013), see:
Dynaudio records

schwammerl.


Thanks for that. Wagner and Steingraeber is an unbeatable combination - especially in The Ride of the Valkyries which I have been massacring on my digital piano, waiting for the day when I can get myself a real grand....a Steingraeber (if I don't get a Bösendorfer Imperial grin).
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 08:12 AM

German Amazon appears unwilling to ship the Steingraeber Ring project to the U.S. -- anyone else have any success there?

In the meantime, there's this:

http://www.amazon.de/Parsifal-Goes-La-Ha...8392&sr=8-1
Posted by: Entheo

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 08:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: Ken Knapp
I think this is a fun topic and Keith has done a good job with giving us a little humor. If this were an every day occurrence, then maybe things would be looked at differently.

If we can't have fun on here then I will turn in my Piano World Secret Decoder Ring.

Amen! smile

My motto... pianos are a lot of fun; better yet, Piano World is a lot of fun! smile Rick


for the record, my post was not to deflate keith's crafty promotion but simply point out that other dealers are judged by different standards here. jeff tausch, whom i know, and know his fine store, is as enthusiastic about his product line as keith, albeit much more forthright in touting his wares when posting, for example, about new yamahas or yamaha tech. yet he invariably gets his hand slapped for 'advertising' when he is (overly?) exuberantly posting about a product.

my point is that guidelines of this nature should be based on substance (e.g. accuracy & truthfulness of the content) and not style, so that those who have a commercial interest here understand what rules they're playing by, and they're equally applied to all.
Posted by: Rickster

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 09:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Entheo
for the record, my post was not to deflate keith's crafty promotion but simply point out that other dealers are judged by different standards here. jeff tausch, whom i know, and know his fine store, is as enthusiastic about his product line as keith, albeit much more forthright in touting his wares when posting, for example, about new yamahas or yamaha tech. yet he invariably gets his hand slapped for 'advertising' when he is (overly?) exuberantly posting about a product.

my point is that guidelines of this nature should be based on substance (e.g. accuracy & truthfulness of the content) and not style, so that those who have a commercial interest here understand what rules they're playing by, and they're equally applied to all.

Entheo, your point is well taken and Jeff Tausch, or any of our dealer members here are free to post enthusiastic announcements about product changes, new products or whatever. However, when it comes to interpretation, that is a more complicated issue…

Fact is, we all promote ourselves here in some form or fashion, but where is the line between self promotion and advertising? Like I said, there is no hard and fast rule… it is a matter of interpretation.

Now, on the other hand, there is such a thing as blatant advertising. That rarely occurs here with our dealer members, but it does occur. I might also add that PW would not be the same without our dealer members. They are a very important asset to this forum.

So, is it subtle advertising or self-promotion or both? Again, it is a matter of interpretation.

Ken Knapp brought up an important point… consistency.

As a moderator here, I know that not everyone will agree with my decisions (when moderator action is taken). Maybe I need a pay raise… smile

Don’t know if this makes you feel any better or not, but it is what it is…

Rick
Posted by: Dale Fox

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 09:48 AM

Rickster,
please double your current salary. ;p

Keith,

loved the post. Too bad a sense of humor isn't a prerequisite for visiting PW.
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 10:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman

If I choose to participate here again, I would respectfully request that you just ignore me. I will give you the same courtesy. If you don't respond again in this thread, I will take it that you agree to my request.


What's this? The threat of you not posting here if you garner less than universal agreement and appobation? grin If, as you say, I was the only dissenting vote and your purpose was to get as favorable a response as possible, you should have settled for 100% minus one. You didn't have to fire off a 75 line retort (plus the quotes that dissected my 15 lines).

I'll meet you halfway on this. I will not ignore your posts. They can be quite instructive, among the most thought-provoking I read here. Upon your return from your hiatus, I read your post on the donimoes that fall to make low-production pianos so expensive. It was instructive and (sorry)logical

So I'll read your posts, but I will not respond to them so as to avoid being the minus one factor.

Whether you read mine or not is completely up to you. I have no control over that. I'm certainly not out to get you. I simply disagreed with your approach here.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 10:40 AM

"appobation" ?

"donimoes" ?

I suggest the complete OED.
Posted by: Plowboy

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 10:55 AM

Originally Posted By: turandot

My 'deep' understanding is that the player makes the music and is supported to different degrees by different pianos. I don't feel that's very deep at all. It's fundamental. It's also pretty obvious that a top notch player on a mediocre piano is far more interesting to listen to than a hack on a top grade piano.


I was actually thinking about this thread last night.

A couple of years ago, through some sort of obvious miscommunication, I wound up at a fancy party in San Marino. The kind of party where waiters bring drinks and hors d'oeuvres around to you. There was a beautiful Steinway B there. I asked the host, and he said nobody in the house played. So, basically, it just sat there looking impressive.

Last night I was at a more modest potluck party with a bunch of old climbers and mountaineers. In this home sat a Samick baby grand, on the music desk was a Schirmer edition of Diabelli Sonatinas the hostess was studiously working through. She loves Diabelli. There was a stack of other music on the desk as well, all the usual suspects, Bach, Chopin, Beethoven. She talked about getting lost in the music for hours at a time. She's played all her life.

That Samick must be a wonderful piano.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Plowboy
Originally Posted By: turandot

My 'deep' understanding is that the player makes the music and is supported to different degrees by different pianos. I don't feel that's very deep at all. It's fundamental. It's also pretty obvious that a top notch player on a mediocre piano is far more interesting to listen to than a hack on a top grade piano.


I was actually thinking about this thread last night.

A couple of years ago, through some sort of obvious miscommunication, I wound up at a fancy party in San Marino. The kind of party where waiters bring drinks and hors d'oeuvres around to you. There was a beautiful Steinway B there. I asked the host, and he said nobody in the house played. So, basically, it just sat there looking impressive.

Last night I was at a more modest potluck party with a bunch of old climbers and mountaineers. In this home sat a Samick baby grand, on the music desk was a Schirmer edition of Diabelli Sonatinas the hostess was studiously working through. She loves Diabelli. There was a stack of other music on the desk as well, all the usual suspects, Bach, Chopin, Beethoven. She talked about getting lost in the music for hours at a time. She's played all her life.

That Samick must be a wonderful piano.


Great story and a very valid point.

On the other hand, having a piano that you truly love really can help inspire someone to play more than they otherwise might and to derive greater enjoyment the experience than might otherwise happen.

All music is good and all pianos are good, but it's frequently said here that -- all other things being equal -- people should get the best piano they can comfortably afford. That still seems like good advice to me.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 03:04 PM

Quote:
My 'deep' understanding is that the player makes the music and is supported to different degrees by different pianos. I don't feel that's very deep at all. It's fundamental. It's also pretty obvious that a top notch player on a mediocre piano is far more interesting to listen to than a hack on a top grade piano.


While this is entirely true, it's still nice to hear a good pianist on a good piano.

Or a great one on a great one...

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Cellphonepictures045.jpg

Norbert
Posted by: jmcintyre

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/11/13 11:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Plowboy
That Samick must be a wonderful piano.


Thanks for a great post. "If you can't be with the one you love, honey, love the one you're with."
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 10:06 AM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Will this do, T-dot? You won't find this one on the PianoCraft floor, though, since it's been carried off by Steingraeber pirates:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUAy-mDIozs

The "about" section is missing from this video, but I can tell you that it's a Steingraeber C-212.



As a matter of fact, it will do.

It's amusing that you ask for confirmation on that particular piano for two reasons.

First, I believe that you were the "pirate" that carried it off leaving behind your Avant. It seems to me that you should be asking yourself, not others, if it will do.

Second, before the piano was sold, Keith presented the same video on the Piano Forum as a thread opener. I recall it well because the piano made quite a statement about itself through the hands and mind of Mr. Tirrell. What you may find ironic is that I expressed a very positive honest reaction to that piano on that thead. You may further find the following exchange to be informative reading. My comments are in italics. Keith's are in bold.
_________________

Hey Keith,

What a sterling presentation of that piano!

First of all, the visual setting. I'm not a fan of the shape of grand pianos or the impact that a grand piano has on a room, but this setting is just wonderful, and that Steingraeber with that finish and presented on its short stick has a very pleasing visual line.

Second, the artist. Mr. Tirrell makes Chopin the star. His manner never distracts from the music. His movements are compact with no flamboyance. His playing is secure and confident without being aloof. His phrasing shows an introspective approach that puts Chopin's message first and foremost.

Third, the piano. In listening (3 times now) I really got into the shape of the tone and the length of the decay. They worked so well together!. IMO the sustain was long enough to support the flow of the music without being so long that it interfered with an appreciation of all the notes and their dynamics. Although all three Mazurkas demonstrated this and the second one played is a personal favorite of mine, I thought the last one in particular showcased the balance of fundamental tone and an appropriate sustain.

Last, I don't know to what extent it was the touch control of Mr. Tirrell and to what extent it was the preparation of the piano, but it was noticeable to me that this piano was in no way as percussively bright as a new Steingraeber grand can be.

In that vein, I have a question for you. (Go figure ). With regard to this piano as played, where did preparation end and customization begin? I ask that because I know you choose your Steingraebers at the factory and I have heard from others that Mr. Steingaeber will see to it that his pianos are prepped to the liking of his retailer customer before they leave the factory.


Hi Turandot,

Thanks for the nice comments. Your observation about the balance and shape of the tone on this piano was dead on, and Im kind of shocked and pleased that you were able to get that from a YouTube video.


As for what you are describing as a percussive brilliance that you normally hear in Steingraebers, I assure you, that sound is definately available in this piano should the pianist desire it, and it is an important part of the Steingraeber tone. However, we have set this piano up a bit differently from how they come from the factory and the pianist has to work a bit harder to get that sound. It is interesting that you made that comment because Udo Steingraeber also noticed this. We demonstrated to him that it was still in his piano, only it required a bit more effort than normal to achieve. He was delighted.
It is important to note that we don't customize all our Steingraebers and we have sold many that nothing more than basic work was done, and those clients are quite happy.
The post above this one hopefully answers your other questions.


Oh Ye of little faith!

Sennhrisers helped, and it is. after all. a very fine recording. And that piano..........is a knockout.

Yes, Keith. Many thanks. All my questions have been answered. Some of them had already been answered in your post to Emmanuel Ravelli.

My suspicions have also been confirmed once again. You are one dangerous hombre.


_______________

That thread evoked a lot of positive comments about what I believe is now your piano. So, if you need reinforcement on your decision (and I certainly don't think you should), you might enjoy reading the whole of it.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1732779/1.html

In reviewing this particular Steingraeber thread (which is how I came across your post), I noticed that comments have been directed to appreciation of humor, an endorsement of the brand from a few who state a familiarity with it, comments alluding to what a party-pooper I am, and a banal comment on my typo by an apostle of pedantry. There also seem to be a few posts with stirrings of possible inappropriate self-promoton, and a moderator response that a story of a piano love affair that ultimately cracks your cranium can be a fine and fun thing. Finally, there are Keith's own responses which place him at the podium addressing the PW multitude and me as the lone heckler in the back of the room.

I'm not so sure I see it that way. There are after all thousands of page views and a few dozen individuals responding. It's conceivable that among the silent multitude there is a fair bit of appreciation for Gary' story of that homely Samick, although surely not as much as for the Steingraeber that lured a grown man to a cave. grin I do support the moderators though that there's not enough smoke here to make a fire. People don't lay down significant coin on a piano because it may split open their melons (although people choose a given piano for some strange reasons). The salesmanship that Keith owned up to -- it may stir up some brand curiosity, but that's not a bad thing even for the other silent Steingraeber retailers who may be wincing at his approach here.

Anyway, to answer your question, it's good enough. By all means it's good enough. Enjoy that piano. Work hard to make yourself its equal and you'll enjoy it even more.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 10:32 AM

Aah - The announcement from the Heights of Olympus.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 10:32 AM

I'm trying, T-dot, thanks.

For the record, I enjoyed Gary's post about the Samick as much as anyone, as I noted above.

In addition, I need no reinforcement on my decision to choose this piano, as I've already stated at length in another thread. I haven't played as many pianos as some, but this is the best piano my hands have ever touched. I couldn't be happier with it, and nothing I've said suggests otherwise.

You asked for a video, and I posted one. I'm glad you like it.
Posted by: Furtwangler

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 10:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Aah - The announcement from the Heights of Olympus.


Marty:

Or perhaps Mount Hubris
Posted by: Monica K.

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 11:16 AM

Keith, I enjoyed your post (humor is always a nice touch), and I welcome all your posts. You make a lot of positive contributions to the forum. Please don't let a cranky detractor keep you from participating in the future. smile

Signed,
One of the silent multitude.
Posted by: Karl Watson

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 11:17 AM

To whom it may concern:

The level of repulsive vitriol that our forum now supports is something that I find so profoundly hurtful that I will never visit this sight again. Decent ladies and gentlemen simply do not speak or write in such a manner.

Why is it that is seems to be the most admired and indisputable authorities in the piano world that are attacked in such a manner ? Who cares if Keith is a retailer ? Havewe all lost the love of our instrument that we can condemn one of its devoted servants ? The pianos that this man has provided sustain and nurture artists that NONE of us here can approach.

The video of Shaun Terrill playing the Steingraeber certainly indicates that the piano is special. However, is it totally lost that his playing is simply off the charts in its beauty and naturalness ? However talented the young British pianist is, he could learn MUCH from listening to Shaun Terrill for 30 seconds. Have any of you heard his Rachmaninov Sonata, played on a not particularly remarkable concert grand and in an appalling acoustic ? It is stupendous playing.

It seems that the dog biscuit tribe simply must attack the Tiffany diamonds. Well, you can do it WITHOUT this particular audience member. This is roman coliseum stuff.

Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 11:29 AM

Step off the ledge, please, Karl. In this thread you see a lot of positive, constructive comments and one or two curmudgeonly posts. That's just the internet, and this site is better than most.

If you let the few bad-apple postings chase you away, then that perspective prevails.

Don't go. We need you here.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 11:57 AM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib

In addition, I need no reinforcement on my decision to choose this piano, as I've already stated at length in another thread.


That's not the way I remember it!!! grin
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 12:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib

In addition, I need no reinforcement on my decision to choose this piano, as I've already stated at length in another thread.


That's not the way I remember it!!! grin


Steve, from the minute I touched this piano it was number one on my list, and there was no number two -- though I played lots of really nice pianos. It was like the "thunderbolt" moment in the novel, The Godfather.
Posted by: Swarth

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 01:39 PM

I wonder what % of piano buyers even consider a Steingraeber? I remember when I first heard of Bechstein or Bosendorfer and the prices that were more than my first house and I was incredulous that a piano could be "worth" that much, or that the need for such an instrument would even exist. Of course this was the time when I was weaned off of my Hamilton 243 and was playing my Rhodes and Prophet 5 (which cost a pretty penny) and pianos were "old fashioned". Now, I still can't see ever spending 50K plus for a piano but I realize that at around 30K you can find some very wonderful special instruments. If I had the means and desire I would have no problem spending any amount for the piano that appealed the most to my wants. It really is the aging boomers mid life crisis sports car. A luxury, a splurge and the fantasy of performing concerts in front of thousands playing soaring passages on the wings of your amazing Bosengraeberstein. Your playing ability matters not. Do you really think that the people who buy those exotic sports cars are all race car drivers? Men and their institutions really love to suck the fun out of life by imposing all the rules on "how you should do things", classical music being one of the worst offenders. All I can say say to people who need you to always be grounded in their version of reality; Lighten up Francis.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 01:51 PM

It's amazing what you can afford if you're willing to bargain creatively, drive an old car, and refinance your house.

But we all have our own priorities. Some people take vacations, others play golf, others buy art or jewelry or fancy cars. Those aren't my priorities.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 02:08 PM

Quote:
I wonder what % of piano buyers even consider a Steingraeber?


Enough that their productions is sold out now for months ahead of time. In fact Udo told me a while back they just had their best year in history. So, somebody out there is buying.

By the way, several other top tier makers experiencing same.

Norbert
Posted by: Plowboy

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 03:25 PM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
It's amazing what you can afford if you're willing to bargain creatively, drive an old car, and refinance your house.

But we all have our own priorities. Some people take vacations, others play golf, others buy art or jewelry or fancy cars. Those aren't my priorities.


I bet everyone here agrees with you. Buy as much piano as you can afford. If I ever hit the lottery, you can bet my present piano will be flying out the door!

As a matter of fact, when I can get to my 401k...
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 05:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Karl Watson


Have we all lost the love of our instrument that we can condemn one of its devoted servants ? The pianos that this man has provided sustain and nurture artists that NONE of us here can approach.

The video of Shaun Terrill playing the Steingraeber certainly indicates that the piano is special. However, is it totally lost that his playing is simply off the charts in its beauty and naturalness ? However talented the young British pianist is, he could learn MUCH from listening to Shaun Terrill for 30 seconds.


Both the piano and the performance were special, but you're talking about a thread one and a half years ago. The quality of Mr. Tirrell's playing was not lost on members when that Steingraeber video was presented. My own comment was....

The artist. Mr. Tirrell makes Chopin the star. His manner never distracts from the music. His movements are compact with no flamboyance. His playing is secure and confident without being aloof. His phrasing shows an introspective approach that puts Chopin's message first and foremost

Are you suggesting that on this thread there is a specific piano to compliment or its player to praise? I must have missed that.

It's bizarre for you to suggest that because Mr. Tirrell's playing is firs-rate, that the young British pianist who you have no clue about should listen to Mr. Tirrell for 30 seconds and realize his own inadequacy. Rather than quitting this place, you should untangle your wiring.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 05:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
I wonder what % of piano buyers even consider a Steingraeber?


Enough that their productions is sold out now for months ahead of time. In fact Udo told me a while back they just had their best year in history. So, somebody out there is buying.

By the way, several other top tier makers experiencing same.

Norbert
And all of them have extremely limited output.

If a maker produces a few hundred pianos per year and sells them all that certainly doesn't imply many are considering the purchase of that make piano or have even heard of that make piano. I'd guess that less than 10%(probably much less than 10%) of North American buyers have even heard of pianos like Steingraeber, Estonia, Fazioli, Sauter, and other Tier 1 and Tier 2 makes.

A piano's high quality in no way implies many are considering the purchase of that piano. I don't think there are even 10 Steingraeber owners among the 50,000 members. The real world is not like the few hundred regular posters at PW Piano Forum where there is much talk about the super high end pianos.
Posted by: Chopinlover49

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 08:33 PM

Not sure how to copy part of a post (above) to replay to it, so I will just sum up that there was one post that suggested one should not buy a piano that is way above one's performing ability. Not sure if that was a joke or not. I know that my performing ability will never be equal to the potential of my Mason-Hamlin BB, but I think the piano has helped me improve a lot in just a few months. If I chose a piano that matched my ability, I suppose I would have to check the junkyards.
Posted by: JohnSprung

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 08:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Plowboy
... I wound up at a fancy party in San Marino. The kind of party where waiters bring drinks and hors d'oeuvres around to you. There was a beautiful Steinway B there. I asked the host, and he said nobody in the house played. ....


So, what happened? Did you play? Did you ask if you could?
Posted by: BoseEric

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/12/13 09:09 PM

Really enjoyed your post Keith...very few people are in this business only for the money anymore. Many of those (of us) left really LOVE great pianos!

I get it!
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/13/13 02:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Chopinlover49
Not sure how to copy part of a post (above) to replay to it, so I will just sum up that there was one post that suggested one should not buy a piano that is way above one's performing ability. Not sure if that was a joke or not. I know that my performing ability will never be equal to the potential of my Mason-Hamlin BB, but I think the piano has helped me improve a lot in just a few months. If I chose a piano that matched my ability, I suppose I would have to check the junkyards.


My goodness! That approach doesn't sound like it would be too rewarding.

Look. I don't know if you're referring to what I posted because I didn't write exactly that. But in case you're referring to my post, hers's what I wrote.

Logic indicates that the time to replace a piano is when the performance capability of the player begins to exceed, match, or at least approach the performance capability of the instrument. It makes sense. The player's capability should, at least theoretically, be on an upward trajectory. The instrument's capability is either static with good maintenance or in decline.

Logic, however, is insufficient to the needs of the luxury goods market, and can be its enemy. Without an illusion of grandeur, the piano upgrade market would be next to nowhere and what's left of the piano industry in the West would be in worse shape than it is.


No reasonable industry person would deny that unit sales are down in the West -- both in Europe and North America. No reasonable industry person would deny that the upgrade market has never been more important than now to its survival. Without the segment of the market that purchases beyond logic, the industry would be in worse shape. So the retailer whose only sale of the month is a high-ticket piano can at least be thankful that the one sale can make his month, but the problem is not the high-tecket piano. The problem is at the grass roots level. There are simply not enough first-time buyers to fuel the product category going forward.

Everyone has his favorite scapegoat for the decline -- everythig from lazy vidoe-addicted youth (totally unfair) to the flood of cheap Chinese pianos (equally unfair). Between those two poit-the-finger choices lie many legitimate factors that relate to a massive cultural shift in the apportionment of leisure time.

Despite the multitude of reasons given, no one has an answer. But whether the high-ticket piano is a mid-life splurge by a baby boomer (as another member put it) really doesn't matter. The fact is that upgrades upon upgrades buy the industry a little more time to come up with an answer. The industry needs that kind of purchase to keep its retailers alive. It needs to sell a piano to someone who already has one. So the high upgrade buyer is a good thing for the industry and that in turn is a good thing for the survival of the instrument as a viable form of cultural expression in the West.

In my opinion, you or anyone else is 100% entitled to a splurge that defies logic. It's your business to spend your money on whatever peaceful means suits you, and it's very difficult to pin a price tag on pure enjoyment. However, upgrade shoppers should be fully cognizant that a high-ticket piano carries no guarantees that you will always enjoy it, that in and of itself it will carry you to the level you aspire to, and that it is a necessary ingredient of the recipe to get there. It isn't. You can go any awfully long way as a pure player with something of the caliber of a U1. You can go yet further with a 25k grand. If you choose to go beyond that, you are not a criminal or fool, but hopefully you are fully aware that it's up to you, not to the piano, to make it work.

I disagreed with the content of this thread for reasons that have nothing to do with people wanting to have a nice piano around to give them pleasure. I sincerely wish you great success on your Mason.
Posted by: Entheo

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/13/13 09:03 AM

Originally Posted By: turandot
Everyone has his favorite scapegoat for the decline -- everythig from lazy vidoe-addicted youth (totally unfair) to the flood of cheap Chinese pianos (equally unfair). Between those two poit-the-finger choices lie many legitimate factors that relate to a massive cultural shift in the apportionment of leisure time.


clearly, Lang Lang is responsible for the decline. smirk
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/14/13 12:38 AM

Quote:
No reasonable industry person would deny that unit sales are down in the West -- both in Europe and North America. No reasonable industry person would deny that the upgrade market has never been more important than now to its survival.


Perhaps except China, they seem to have their own economy happening there...

For others, especially top German makers like Steingraeber, Sauter and Grotrian the market is actually up by considerable margin.

Hamburg is reportedly building at full capacity.

Russia and China have become major buyers ordering plenty.
Especially the 'most expensive' models.

China is ordering whatever they can while trying at same time to get their fingers into some kind of co-ownership or at least joint ventures.

[Only few budging up till now..]

Now back to us being "rest of the world"...

Norbert cry
Posted by: sophial

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/14/13 10:47 AM

Are you referring to Hamburg Steinway, Norbert?
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/14/13 11:36 AM

Quote:
Are you referring to Hamburg Steinway, Norbert?


Yes, of course..

N smile
Posted by: mickangel33

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/15/13 03:19 AM

Steingraeber in Europe have a fantastic reputation. There is a website who is ranking them on the first place, before steinway and all others brands.
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/15/13 06:30 AM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
It's amazing what you can afford if you're willing to bargain creatively, drive an old car, and refinance your house.

But we all have our own priorities. Some people take vacations, others play golf, others buy art or jewelry or fancy cars. Those aren't my priorities.


Sorry, but that's way too simplistic and polemic a contrast.

If you already have all the house that you and your family will be needing for the next 20 years, and can simply refinance it, good on you. Please don't assume that the same holds true for all other home-owners. Some of us mortals are living in a coop that we could afford as first-time buyers, and simply refinancing it will not magically create a decent-sized garden for junior to play in, or space for the work and hobbies we would like to pursue.

Yes, I drive an old car (maintain it myself, mostly), and yes, I can bargain creatively. Our vacations are typically weekend camping trips, one hour from home. Our art is either cheap and/or self-made. And no, I don't plan on ever playing golf, and neither do I plan on ever driving fancy cars. As far as jewelry goes, we keep that at an absolute minimum too.

And even though we could technically afford a $50k piano at this stage, before I ever buy a $50k piano (not to mention one for $100k), I'd much rather put the money into the homestead that we actually want, and keep my modest but decent Ibach upright. (Then, of course, there's the matter of junior's education funds...)

So, pray stop your insinuation that anyone who can't afford a Steingraeber is squandering his money on vacations, golf, art, fancy cars or jewelry. Life isn't as simple as you paint it.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/15/13 11:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
It's amazing what you can afford if you're willing to bargain creatively, drive an old car, and refinance your house.

But we all have our own priorities. Some people take vacations, others play golf, others buy art or jewelry or fancy cars. Those aren't my priorities.


Sorry, but that's way too simplistic and polemic a contrast.

If you already have all the house that you and your family will be needing for the next 20 years, and can simply refinance it, good on you. Please don't assume that the same holds true for all other home-owners. Some of us mortals are living in a coop that we could afford as first-time buyers, and simply refinancing it will not magically create a decent-sized garden for junior to play in, or space for the work and hobbies we would like to pursue.

Yes, I drive an old car (maintain it myself, mostly), and yes, I can bargain creatively. Our vacations are typically weekend camping trips, one hour from home. Our art is either cheap and/or self-made. And no, I don't plan on ever playing golf, and neither do I plan on ever driving fancy cars. As far as jewelry goes, we keep that at an absolute minimum too.

And even though we could technically afford a $50k piano at this stage, before I ever buy a $50k piano (not to mention one for $100k), I'd much rather put the money into the homestead that we actually want, and keep my modest but decent Ibach upright. (Then, of course, there's the matter of junior's education funds...)

So, pray stop your insinuation that anyone who can't afford a Steingraeber is squandering his money on vacations, golf, art, fancy cars or jewelry. Life isn't as simple as you paint it.


I surely did not mean to suggest that life is simple for everyone, nor did I mean to suggest that everyone in the world can afford anything they want merely by economizing.

My intended point was merely that a fair number of people (but undoubtedly not everyone) can afford more piano than they might initially think they can afford if they are willing to adjust existing spending priorities and reallocate existing assets.

Our friend Perri Knize wrote an entire, wonderful book about doing precisely what I've described. Perri's case was similar to others like those you've described. It was a major inspiration for my own piano quest.

In my life, I know people who say that can't afford a piano (or a better piano), but they live in fancy houses, drive big luxury cars, own lots of jewelry, take expensive vacations, etc. My point, again, is that to my ears, a person in such circumstances who says "I can't afford a good piano," is really saying, "A good piano is not high on my priority list."

Those people are obviously well off, but even a fair number of middle-class people can and do stretch budgets for special purposes by juggling their spending and assets. It's not always easy, but by no means is it rare. Many here at PW have done exactly that in order to buy a piano they might initially have thought was beyond their reach.

I wouldn't have considered this analysis particularly controversial, but if I've inadvertently touched a nerve, I do apologize.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/15/13 11:48 AM

Quote:
Steingraeber in Europe have a fantastic reputation. There is a website who is ranking them on the first place, before steinway and all others brands.


I would like to see that website.

From my own experience, after being in the same market for over 200 years, the top German makers know exactly how good their competition is and don't make these pretenses.

Nobody at BMW says they're better than Mercedes or Audi.

[But may think so secretely...]

Norbert wink
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/15/13 11:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
Steingraeber in Europe have a fantastic reputation. There is a website who is ranking them on the first place, before steinway and all others brands.


I would like to see that website.

From my own experience, after being in the same market for over 200 years, the top German makers know exactly how good their competition is and don't make these pretenses.

Nobody at BMW says they're better than Mercedes or Audi.

[But may think so secretely...]

Norbert wink


Norbert, I'd never have guessed you've been in the market so long. smile
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/15/13 12:59 PM

Quote:
Norbert, I'd never have guessed you've been in the market so long.




Well, I hardly have.... wink

However, when visiting these guys over there or talking with them on trade shows, one never gets the feeling of one playing the 'superiority card' over the other.

Don't forget, many of the owners had dads, grand-dads and grand-grand dads that knew and respected each other for a very long time.

Instead, they most typically tell which artist bought pianos from them before [including most recently ..] "where" most of their pianos are being sold right now [not USA] and which top craftsman trained by one factory recently "was stolen" by someone else and is now working for another guy.... cursing

P.S. soccer, skiing and sometimes 'hunting' are also favourite subjects...among others of course...

Norbert ha
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/15/13 05:43 PM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
[quote=Mark R.]
Our friend Perri Knize wrote an entire, wonderful book about doing precisely what I've described. Perri's case was similar to others like those you've described. It was a major inspiration for my own piano quest.


Keep in mind that the title of that book is Grand Obsession. There's probably been quite abit of paper written in the re-fi market due to that book. grin

Any financial analyst will tell you that it's not too swift to take money out of an appreciating asset to put into a depreciating one. However, that is somewhat logical, and if you're obsessed, logic will do little good. Better a re-fi than a piano dealer's tasty credit plan.

The mortgage market is interesting in the US right now. People who bought at the wrong time are underwater even as they continue to make on-time payments. They can't even get a line of credit. People trying to become first-time buyers are facing a lot of obstacles as they pay for the corruption and corporate greed of others.

I was in Japan around 1990 when the bubble burst there. A lot of people who gave up on the possibility of buying a home set their sights on more accessible luxury goods. The car makers catered to that, going so far as to create new upscale models designed for a less conservative more risk-oriented younger generation. Golf clubs, sailing clubs, and yacht clubs all saw an increase in membership interest for the next couple of years even as the economy stayed moribund.I had friends living in a rent-control apartment who used their home-purchase savings fund on a Nissan Cima and a small sailboat. That was the equivalent of $60k US at the time. Grand pianos never participated in the spending spree because they're simply too damned big to be practical in the Japanese scale of interior living space.

Around 1995 the reality truly set in. Upscale department stores and luxury goods boutiques began to falter as 100 yen stores (similar to 99 cent stores here) and dedicated used car dealerships began to sprout up. Japanese air carriers, who had never offered mileage clubs, suddenly had one.The % rate of saved income began to climb once again as Japanese who lacked true wealth realized that the cloud over their economy wasn't going anywhere in a hurry. Things are no different there today. People's expectations are lower, their caution sharpened by experience.
Posted by: fingers

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/15/13 06:00 PM

Turandot,

Finally we stumble on a topic on PW that I know a little something about- Foreclosures(REO). wink

fingers
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/15/13 06:23 PM

T-dot, your financial advice is noted. Besides working in finance for the past 35 years, I also have an intimate understanding of my own financial situation. I would never dream of burdening you with enough knowledge of that situation to allow you to render an opinion that was worth anything at all in my case.

Thanks all the same, though.
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/15/13 07:27 PM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
T-dot, your financial advice is noted. Besides working in finance for the past 35 years, I also have an intimate understanding of my own financial situation. I would never dream of burdening you with enough knowledge of that situation to allow you to render an opinion that was worth anything at all in my case.

Thanks all the same, though.


One thing that's become clear here is that you are johnny-on-the-spot to counter any comments that may impinge on your prolonged celebration of your piano purchase on this forum. Please understand that my observations are from a macro perspective and need not intersect with your personal finances in any way. Whatever you, or any individual does with his money in a peaceful way is completely up to you. I'm quite sure I posted that already.

Earlier you put up a link to your owned Steingraeber from a time before it was owned by you. You asked if it was good enough for me, but I had requested absolutely nothing from you. My response was that I had seen and listened to the link, and while I liked the piano a great deal, it was not one of the pianos which are the subject of this thread, It still isn't, and you aren't.

There's plenty of bandwidth here for your celebration to continue. There's also bandwidth for people of different opinions and experiences to share observations that are not dedicated to that celebration. Again, to be blunt, you are not the thread topic.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/15/13 07:32 PM

Originally Posted By: turandot
Again, to be blunt, you are not the thread topic.

Neither are you, dot, neither are you.
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/15/13 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: turandot
Again, to be blunt, you are not the thread topic.

Neither are you, dot, neither are you.


For once you are correct, but it's disheartening that in a mere seven words you had to be redundant.


Why don't you explain what the thread topic is? I mean really -- take a stab at it.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/15/13 07:55 PM

My goodness, T-dot... You surely do get peeved when people try to divert your thread hijacking efforts...
Posted by: C523.3

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/16/13 04:37 AM

We English find your brash American salesmanship so amusing!
Do people really fall for it? You appear so desperate!
Don't worry, you're bound to sell it one day. wink
Posted by: terrell

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/16/13 08:16 AM

We brash Americans have sold more chewing-gum and rocking chairs than you can imagine, and if we could teach the rest of the world to rock and chew at the same time we would open markets world wide.
Posted by: Entheo

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/16/13 09:09 AM

Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
[quote=Mark R.]
Our friend Perri Knize wrote an entire, wonderful book about doing precisely what I've described. Perri's case was similar to others like those you've described. It was a major inspiration for my own piano quest.


Keep in mind that the title of that book is Grand Obsession...


i quite enjoyed perri's book, but must confess that i often wondered if her vision quest was ultimately realized by the repeated playing of a couple of mendelssohn's "songs without words". 'obsession' carries a pejorative connotation; something out of balance, koyaanisqatsi. i have extraordinarily accomplished friends who have mediocre pianos that are out of tune most of the time, but when they play, it matters little. i suppose one could say they are obsessed with the music. in any case, the middle path serves most of us well, most of the time. everything in moderation, including moderation, as it's been said.

that said, i'll be the first to admit that my instrument is above my 'play grade', and i'm happy to see steinways and faziolis in homes of modest abilities. it's a good thing dealers don't make us audition for our choices, and it's a sad thing that those who really deserve the finest instruments can't afford them.
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/16/13 09:46 AM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
My goodness, T-dot... You surely do get peeved when people try to divert your thread hijacking efforts...


You know, you're the second person to tell me that my comments here are getting in the way of the parade. I asked the first one to apply his noggin to fashioning some sort of an explanation of what the parade theme is. I'll ask you to do the same.

The way I see it, Keith provided the itch -- a guy gone mad from lusting over a high-ticket piano. You provided the scratch with your sage financial advice about what one can accomplish if "you're willing to "bargain creatively, drive an old car, and refinance your house". In between the two, you provided the climactic moment when you wrote:

"from the minute I touched this piano it was number one on my list, and there was no number two -- though I played lots of really nice pianos. It was like the "thunderbolt" moment in the novel, The Godfather."

More like from an old Harlequin Romance, if you substitute a guy for the piano. The mob wasn't much into pianos, although they did find some creative uses for piano wire.

No matter. I had no reaction of any kind to the thunderbolt. We're all wired differently in terms of what sets off an electric charge. For me it was the scratch, not the climax, that opened the door once again to alternate points of view on how to handle the itch. I can see how to you it just messed up the transition to the denouement, but it just stuck in my head that there was something phony and hollow about that scratch, just as there was something phony and hollow about your compliment to Gary on his alternate reality story of the humble Samick. Yeah, you quickly wrote that it was nice and you went out of your way to state how you appreciated it as much as anyone, but that just served as a promo for yet another rerun of your core message.

At this point I've had a change of heart, though hardly a thunderbolt. I've got to tell you with you and Smarty both on standby stumbling over my dog's name and nipping at her heels , I looked at her, she looked at me, and we both decided -- what the hey -- maybe it is your thread and we're just jealous of how you're sitting pretty on that fine piano of yours.

So to make a long story short, we're throwing in the towel. I was wrong. It is your thread. Clearly it is your thread. Getting in the way just ain't worth it, and it does mess up the plot line.

It reminds me in many ways of my Uncle Leo. He was christened Leo, but everyone in the family called him Uncle Same-ol behind his back. He was the epitome of the self-made man...absolutely relentless with his repetitious stories. His wife, Aunt Corine, had chronic headache problems which were rumored to be caused by severe constipation which in turn was rumored to be caused by life with Leo. Of course this diagnosis was never talked about publicly at family gatherings.

Uncle Leo's favorite story was how right out of college he went to work for Goodyear Tire and Rubber for only $3.10 an hour, and how from that humble start, through the sweat of his brow he made his fortune. What he never mentioned was that when he went to Goodyear, the minimum wage was $1.00 an hour. None of us really knew what Uncle Leo's fortune was. There were stories that it wasn't all he cracked it up to be, but nobody really knew.

Leo's pride, joy, and conspicuous badge of success was a Chrysler Imperial that he spent his retirement years washing and waxing repeatedly. Leo did everything repeatedly, but God knows, he really did love that car. It served as the crowning symbol of his life well spent. The only thing was, when you got a ride in it, he became even more insufferable than usual as he puffed up before your very ears, sitting at the helm of such a beautiful piece of machinery.

I never let on about it to my dad, who I always suspected was jealous of his brother, but I really loved Uncle Leo. It was clear that he hadn't had it easy. his siblings all had careers that his parents liked talking about. He was the guy who spent his life at the rubber plant. Corine liked church socials and potlucks. He liked the ticket window at the track and the bleacher seats at the ballgame. When he got cataracts and driving became risky, he let me pilot the aging Imperial to take him to his many doctor appointments. His health was failing fast and he knew it. He was deflating. When he passed on, I was there reading a book to him. That was another thing about Leo. He could listen. He loved a good story more than he loved his own bloated boasting.

So, am I peeved at you? Not at all, not in the least. I love a good story too.

Posted by: Norbert

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/16/13 11:45 AM

Quote:
"from the minute I touched this piano it was number one on my list, and there was no number two -- though I played lots of really nice pianos. It was like the "thunderbolt" moment in the novel, The Godfather.


This is exactly what "should happen" when making a purchase:
there are many testimonials here by people involving much less suspect makes than Steingraeber.

To me Keith's comments were enjoyable to read as he, as several others here, has across a GREAT NUMBER of top class pianos in his life.

Once these "seasoned travellors" have found something truly special to them, it might be just worth taking it pretty well at face value "accepting the ride"...

Why not simply "enjoy"?

Norbert smile

Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/16/13 12:07 PM

Dot,

You seemed to have learned much from your Uncle Leo.

Self puffery and verbage have become your hallmarks.

Those qualities are now the core of this thread.
Posted by: AJF

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/16/13 01:44 PM

Why don't you all quit squabbling and go practice!
Geez.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/16/13 04:48 PM

Originally Posted By: AJF
Why don't you all quit squabbling and go practice!
Geez.


Best suggestion I've heard all day.
Posted by: BerndAB

OT Frankfurt Messe - 02/16/13 08:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
Frankfurt Messe anybody?


Me. Fearing the noise of thousands piano hobbyist players (like me..)
Posted by: mickangel33

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/18/13 03:32 AM

The website is pianoranking.

M
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/18/13 10:03 AM

That ranking stie is interesting even though it doesn't reveal much about itself. Some of the comments lead me to believe it is an honest collective effort and not slapped together for a commercial purpose. You should post it as an opener in a new thread.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/18/13 11:06 AM

Originally Posted By: mickangel33
The website is pianoranking.

M


An interesting set of opinions, but without background and methodology, the lists aren't anything but lists.

Even if there were more backstory, I'm sure I would agree with Norbert's earlier point -- that the differences among pianos in this tier are mainly sorted according to personal preferences of players and listeners. I have my preferences, and others have theirs, but that should mean nothing to someone else choosing his or her piano.
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/18/13 12:01 PM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: mickangel33
The website is pianoranking.

M


An interesting set of opinions, but without background and methodology, the lists aren't anything but lists.


Well, as long as you're going to comment on it, I'll assume it's a permissible detour on your thread. grin

I agree with the lack of background, but methodology is really tough with acoustic pianos. There's been some success with digitals because they open themselves more readily to quantifying measurables. You're not stuck on dark, bright, full, thin, deep, and all that stuff.

With acoustic rankings, maybe the best you can hope for is that it's an honest effort and not a sales ploy concocted by an inside interest. Ultimately, you compare it to your own and possibly find some matches, possibly not.

The thing I noticed about this site is that it took on specific models. IOW unlike Fine for example, it didn't stay just at the brand level. It was also willing to reveal some of its shortcomings.....only one sample of a Bosie 130 (unprepped at that) and apologies for not getting to Vienna, apologies to Yamaha for putting up the S and not the CFX, and a sharp divide of opinion on AF rather than any consensus. Those are only examples. There were more.

I sent an email asking for more info on the composition of their ranking panel. I'll post something if they reply.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/18/13 12:10 PM

Anyone interested in pianos like those showing up on the pianoranking lists might find more substance (and, of course, no shortage of opinions) in this blog:

http://www.highendpianoguy.com/
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/18/13 12:14 PM

Eric doesn't rank pianos.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/18/13 12:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
"from the minute I touched this piano it was number one on my list, and there was no number two -- though I played lots of really nice pianos. It was like the "thunderbolt" moment in the novel, The Godfather.


This is exactly what "should happen" when making a purchase:
there are many testimonials here by people involving much less suspect makes than Steingraeber.

To me Keith's comments were enjoyable to read as he, as several others here, has across a GREAT NUMBER of top class pianos in his life.

Once these "seasoned travellors" have found something truly special to them, it might be just worth taking it pretty well at face value "accepting the ride"...

Why not simply "enjoy"?

Norbert smile



Indeed. That was the intent I read into Keith's original post and a lot of the great followup comments consistent with it.
Posted by: Rich Galassini

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/18/13 02:10 PM

Originally Posted By: mickangel33
The website is pianoranking.

M


My thoughts,

This pianoranking site could be something of substance, but without more information it is of little value. Further I like "group rankings" much better than an order that appears to say "first place", "second place", etc.

Even though the author says this is not a strict ranking, it certainly asppears to be just that.

Also, IMHO, the author is not a native english speaker. I only say this because the choice of wording is sometimes awkward (but so is mine occasionally) and the misspellings are simple words that could have been easily proofread.

Either that or it was slapped together.

My quick 2 cents,
Posted by: Supply

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/18/13 02:37 PM

That is not a very useful website. All the top pianos seem to be "regular", with the top brand being perfectly regular.... thumb
(...I know what is meant, but compulsory interpretation and needless ambiguity and are not helpful...)
Posted by: turandot

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/18/13 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich Galassini
Originally Posted By: mickangel33
The website is pianoranking.

M


My thoughts,


IMHO, the author is not a native english speaker. I only say this because the choice of wording is sometimes awkward (but so is mine occasionally) and the misspellings are simple words that could have been easily proofread.

Either that or it was slapped together.

My quick 2 cents,


I think from the syntax the original is French, a far bigger curse than not being a native English speaker. grin

Jurgen,

I took it to mean regulation. But I could be wrong. I don't have experience with piano action laxatives.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/18/13 10:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich Galassini
Originally Posted By: mickangel33
The website is pianoranking.

M


My thoughts,

This pianoranking site could be something of substance, but without more information it is of little value. Further I like "group rankings" much better than an order that appears to say "first place", "second place", etc.

Even though the author says this is not a strict ranking, it certainly asppears to be just that.

Also, IMHO, the author is not a native english speaker. I only say this because the choice of wording is sometimes awkward (but so is mine occasionally) and the misspellings are simple words that could have been easily proofread.

Either that or it was slapped together.

My quick 2 cents,


Agreed. For the little we all know, these folks could be real piano experts, but their lists purport to be hierarchical with no explanation of the system employed or the people employing it. They may be independent experts, they may be affiliated with some in the industry, or they may be no experts at all -- we just don't know.

In addition to not displaying qualifications or metrics, there's very little explanation of the basis for distinctions among the various pianos described, and the few distinctions drawn are done using language so general and subjective as to convey little information.

Again, these folks may be top-notch, and their blog may develop into a rival for Piano Buyer, but lacking either quantitative or qualitative evaluation factors, it has a ways to go.

Personally, I got a lot more information out of Keith's humorous original post, and from various descriptions others here have posted about different pianos they have acquired or played.
Posted by: jinorden

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 02/28/13 04:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
If you buy a new Steingraeber, you will regret it. I don't know how else to put this. Consider yourself warned by one who knows.

We received a shipment of new Steingraebers on Wednesday of this week. I can no longer sleep, eat or concentrate.

On Wednesday, we opened a 212 and a 192. After working a 12 hour day, in which most of it was spent doing mind numbing tasks, I made the mistake of sitting down at the 212.

I blinked and 2 hours had gone by. It was close to 11 pm and I didn't care. I hadn't eaten since breakfast and I didn't care. All I wanted to do was play this piano. I was smitten. Bach, Brahms, Mozart, Bartok, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff and more got played and each sounded better than the last. I enjoyed playing the piano. I wanted to practice. I wanted to play. The piano was inspiring me. It was teaching me. It was helping me sound better than I deserved, yet at the same time showing me how very far I had to go. I had thoughts of giving concerts. I was ready to toss it all, find a cave somewhere, and it would just be me and a Steingraeber and I would do nothing but practice, play and compose.

I fell in love with that piano. Seriously. Love. I was so deep in love that I asked that Steingraeber to marry me. I knew I wasn't worthy, but I thought I could become a better man if only that piano would have me.

Well, fortunately for me, it didn't respond to my proposal, because today we finally got around to opening up the 232. I would like to express my response to that piano, but this is a family website.
What the heck. HOLY MOTHER @#(*@#(@&#(@&#@(#&@(#&@*&#(@&# how is it possible?
That 232 is so good, my head exploded. Literally. That is the only reason I stopped playing. KABOOM. Head exploded. It is some kind of miracle that I can even write this with an exploded head. It shouldn't be possible. I think I am summoning my last bits of strength to warn others, so they don't share the same fate as me.

Please listen. Unless you want to end up wanting to marry a piano, while no longer being able to take care of your normal responsibilities such as concentrating at work and being productive, not to mention completely ignoring your basic human needs such as eating and sleeping, quite possibly ending up living in a cave by yourself with only a Steingraeber piano, and spending what is left of your life with an exploded head, PLEASE DO NOT BUY A STEINGRAEBER PIANO.

heck, it is playing with fire to even try one.

I know for some of you this will fall on deaf ears, but if I can just save one person from my fate, it will all be worth it.

I would write more, but I have to leave. The only hardware store that sells surgical quality duct tape for holding one's skull together is closing soon, and if the rest of my brain falls out, I might drool on the Steingraebers as I play them and that just seems wrong somehow. Although, I suppose that might disuade anyone from buying one of them and taking them from me. Mine! All MINE!!!!!!! MuahahahHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

Well, if you have gotten this far, you cannot plead ignorance. Whatever fate you suffer at the hands of a Steingraeber piano is your own fault.

You have been warned.


I like this post, it's funny, and not attacking anyone.
Posted by: kapelli

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 03/02/13 05:51 PM

Hmm
Do you know why Steingraebers are so uknown in the piano lovers industry? IF they are horribly well made - better then Steinways Faziolic Bossiec etc, so why the are not in big concert halls and CD's used as recorded pianos?

Is it really only the case of marketing?
If yes - why they do not do the same what Fazioli is doing- from few years everybody is talking about Fazioli.

To be honest, I know the Steingraeber name from at leat 10 years, but I NEVER RECOGNIZED IT AS TOP-END PIANO MAKER. Just some on of many european piano makers which is putting their pianos on festivals and etc.

So, if they are so damn good, why still so little people know this company, or if they now - why it's not recozniged as the same class as S&S, Bossie, Shigeru etc?
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 03/02/13 06:04 PM

It is recognized in the same class as S&S, Bossie, and a number of others. It is the Shigeru which is not quite there yet. But the Shigeru is a very fine instrument.
Posted by: BDB

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 03/02/13 06:07 PM

Bossie? Did someone have a cow, man?
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 03/02/13 06:14 PM

Yea BDB - The first time around it was a "Bossiec." I think that's a new religion competing with "Faziolic." I just used his odd spelling.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/15/13 09:16 AM

I finally got a chance to play the Steingraeber D-232 that Keith commented on in the original post in this thread.

It's every bit as good as he said.

Just before I stopped by the shop, they had received another D-232 that was even better than the one Keith wrote about. At least, in my opinion, it was a bit better.

There are obviously many different types of fantastic pianos, and what one likes best will be driven by one's personal taste and playing style.

To me, though, I can't imagine I piano I'd like more than that D-232.

Well done, Udo and PianoCraft.
Posted by: Rich Galassini

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/15/13 09:27 AM

Originally Posted By: jinorden
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
If you buy a new Steingraeber, you will regret it. I don't know how else to put this. Consider yourself warned by one who knows.

We received a shipment of new Steingraebers on Wednesday of this week. I can no longer sleep, eat or concentrate.

On Wednesday, we opened a 212 and a 192. After working a 12 hour day, in which most of it was spent doing mind numbing tasks, I made the mistake of sitting down at the 212.

I blinked and 2 hours had gone by. It was close to 11 pm and I didn't care. I hadn't eaten since breakfast and I didn't care. All I wanted to do was play this piano. I was smitten. Bach, Brahms, Mozart, Bartok, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff and more got played and each sounded better than the last. I enjoyed playing the piano. I wanted to practice. I wanted to play. The piano was inspiring me. It was teaching me. It was helping me sound better than I deserved, yet at the same time showing me how very far I had to go. I had thoughts of giving concerts. I was ready to toss it all, find a cave somewhere, and it would just be me and a Steingraeber and I would do nothing but practice, play and compose.

I fell in love with that piano. Seriously. Love. I was so deep in love that I asked that Steingraeber to marry me. I knew I wasn't worthy, but I thought I could become a better man if only that piano would have me.

Well, fortunately for me, it didn't respond to my proposal, because today we finally got around to opening up the 232. I would like to express my response to that piano, but this is a family website.
What the heck. HOLY MOTHER @#(*@#(@&#(@&#@(#&@(#&@*&#(@&# how is it possible?
That 232 is so good, my head exploded. Literally. That is the only reason I stopped playing. KABOOM. Head exploded. It is some kind of miracle that I can even write this with an exploded head. It shouldn't be possible. I think I am summoning my last bits of strength to warn others, so they don't share the same fate as me.

Please listen. Unless you want to end up wanting to marry a piano, while no longer being able to take care of your normal responsibilities such as concentrating at work and being productive, not to mention completely ignoring your basic human needs such as eating and sleeping, quite possibly ending up living in a cave by yourself with only a Steingraeber piano, and spending what is left of your life with an exploded head, PLEASE DO NOT BUY A STEINGRAEBER PIANO.

heck, it is playing with fire to even try one.

I know for some of you this will fall on deaf ears, but if I can just save one person from my fate, it will all be worth it.

I would write more, but I have to leave. The only hardware store that sells surgical quality duct tape for holding one's skull together is closing soon, and if the rest of my brain falls out, I might drool on the Steingraebers as I play them and that just seems wrong somehow. Although, I suppose that might disuade anyone from buying one of them and taking them from me. Mine! All MINE!!!!!!! MuahahahHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

Well, if you have gotten this far, you cannot plead ignorance. Whatever fate you suffer at the hands of a Steingraeber piano is your own fault.

You have been warned.


I like this post, it's funny, and not attacking anyone.


Actually, Keith Kerman is diabolical! He is an evil genious trying to take over the entire piano world!!
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/15/13 09:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich Galassini
Actually, Keith Kerman is diabolical! He is an evil genious trying to take over the entire piano world!!

I guess that means that Rich has competition in the quest to become Piano Master of the Universe!
Posted by: Piano Doug

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/15/13 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
I finally got a chance to play the Steingraeber D-232 that Keith commented on in the original post in this thread.

It's every bit as good as he said.

Just before I stopped by the shop, they had received another D-232 that was even better than the one Keith wrote about. At least, in my opinion, it was a bit better.

There are obviously many different types of fantastic pianos, and what one likes best will be driven by one's personal taste and playing style.

To me, though, I can't imagine I piano I'd like more than that D-232.

Well done, Udo and PianoCraft.


Is it better than your Steingraeber D-232? If so, how?
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/15/13 09:41 PM

Every bit as good. smile
Posted by: LJC

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/16/13 04:29 PM

I had the same exact experience as Keith...only it was on a Steinway.
Posted by: Keith D Kerman

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/16/13 06:35 PM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
I finally got a chance to play the Steingraeber D-232 that Keith commented on in the original post in this thread.
It's every bit as good as he said.
Just before I stopped by the shop, they had received another D-232 that was even better than the one Keith wrote about. At least, in my opinion, it was a bit better.


FWIW, these 2 videos are of the Steingraeber 232 that ClsscLib liked so much. The instrument in these videos has sold and is no longer available.
The dynamic range in the Scriabin on this recording is quite large, so if you turn it up too much while it is soft ( it starts quite softly) , it might get too loud for you when the music gets to its more powerful moments. For those of you not familiar with this particular piece by Scriabin, you are in for a treat. Such a great piece of music.



Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/16/13 06:48 PM

That is just a flat out gorgeous instrument!
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/16/13 06:55 PM

New page arrived - For a real treat, go back to Page 4 and scroll down to the last entry.

Try it, you'll like it!
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/16/13 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
New page arrived - For a real treat, go back to Page 4 and scroll down to the last entry.

Try it, you'll like it!


The Hurstwood Farms post?
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/16/13 07:26 PM

Nope. The links from Keith Kerman. The one just before my "Gorgeous" post. Maybe the pages are numbered differently in various browsers.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/16/13 07:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Nope. The links from Keith Kerman. The one just before my "Gorgeous" post. Maybe the pages are numbered differently in various browsers.


Sorry, can't find it. Maybe I'm slow today.

Perhaps you could give us a link to the post?
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/16/13 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
I finally got a chance to play the Steingraeber D-232 that Keith commented on in the original post in this thread.
It's every bit as good as he said.
Just before I stopped by the shop, they had received another D-232 that was even better than the one Keith wrote about. At least, in my opinion, it was a bit better.


FWIW, these 2 videos are of the Steingraeber 232 that ClsscLib liked so much. The instrument in these videos has sold and is no longer available.
The dynamic range in the Scriabin on this recording is quite large, so if you turn it up too much while it is soft ( it starts quite softly) , it might get too loud for you when the music gets to its more powerful moments. For those of you not familiar with this particular piece by Scriabin, you are in for a treat. Such a great piece of music.



Posted by: lilylady

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/16/13 11:56 PM

Yes, Keith, that Scriabin certainly was a treat. And on such a beautiful instrument.

Took my breath away.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/17/13 12:31 AM

Sorry, Marty. What you were seeing on page 4 I was seeing on page 13. I was looking in the wrong part of the thread. I don't know how the displays are so different... but thanks for indulging me.
Posted by: rlinkt

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/17/13 12:47 AM

What a beautiful piece of music! and a gorgeous sounding piano!
Posted by: patH

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/17/13 04:26 AM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Sorry, Marty. What you were seeing on page 4 I was seeing on page 13. I was looking in the wrong part of the thread. I don't know how the displays are so different... but thanks for indulging me.

You can set the number of posts per page in your settings. Default is 30 posts per page; and then you have the videos on page 4.
Posted by: Keith D Kerman

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/17/13 05:24 PM

Originally Posted By: lilylady
Yes, Keith, that Scriabin certainly was a treat. And on such a beautiful instrument.

Took my breath away.


Glad you liked it. Do you think you would have ever had a clue that the Scriabin is for one hand if you weren't watching the player? Such ingenious piano writing.
Posted by: lilylady

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/18/13 02:28 PM

Would not have had a clue. What a fantastic interpretation he does.

Ax found the piece on imslp and it looks like something I might try (with two hands though). I wonder what the purpose of it being written/played with just LH when written with a grand staff? There are so many high treble notes! (I'll leave out why that might make it hard for some females to play with just LH!)

It's haunting me, but my 'season' is here and it is hard to find time to practice something new right now, but I am always on the lookout for 'the next piece'! With such a rich bass, it should sound nice on a MH.
Posted by: Anne'sson

Re: Do not buy a new Steingraeber piano - 05/18/13 03:05 PM

Since Scriabin died in 1915, his Op. 9 (which consists of two works for the left hand) couldn't have been one of those written for Paul Wittgenstein (Austrian pianist who lost his right arm in WW1). But I wonder if these Scriabin pieces were part of Wittgenstein's repertoire.