A very nice looking small grand with the Zimmerman name just came available for 5500.00. Does anyone have an opinion on these. It was purchased new in around 1984. I spoke with the owner who said they had purchased it for their daughter to take lessons but she lost interest and it hasn't been used much over the years.

http://alberta.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-...ards-Baby-Grand-Piano-W0QQAdIdZ488073210

Thanks

Wilf

It was made in communist east Germany.

Which "early eighties?"

This might help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_(piano)

The piano was made in the 1980's. I understand the company goes back to the 1880's. Someone said it was made in "communist east Germany" I don't think people necessarily endorse the politics of certain other countries where pianos are manufactured. My question is whether or not someone can tell me if this is a good product or not.

Poorest quality all around.

I especially like the "German made"

If you would have said this in previous GDR [communist East Germany] you would have gotten instant jail.

Everything was called "Socialist Republic" - nothing "German"

Here it was mercilessly exploited by dealers for decades.

How about going to North Korea trying your luck with "Korean" there....

Norbert

Promise me you will not buy this piano. As a young player, I was fortunate enough to land a solo piano gig at a unique restaurant/hotel in tyngsborough Massachusetts. The local owners wanted to recreate a European style retreat with a French restaurant even hiring native French waiters. It was on a horse farm and it was beautiful- except for the pianos. Yes there were two of them, both zimmermans. The owners, I think, thought they were getting high quality German pianos. The got German pianos for sure but not the high quality part. These pianos- a grand and an upright- were without question the WORST pianos I have played in my life. I honestly thought these things were going to collapse in my lap every night. I was afraid t o use the pedals because I thought they would snap. And of course the sound was weak and would never stay in tune. I will never forget those zimmermans. please walk away!

Hey Wilf, slaves don't do precision work. Ever had a Russian watch?

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I had no idea there would be such a reaction. I thought that if the company had a history of over 100 years that would mean they would still be capable of producing quality regardless of government.

If I am not mistaken, I understand that there are quite a few Chinese brands that have gained respect and yet very few people in this part of the world would endorse their governing philosophies.

I have looked at quite a variety of makes and I am hoping to not end up making a poor decision. The trouble is, lots of the pianos "appear" to be high quality. It is hard to know what to do when you are new to the quest to find the best value in a piano.

I hope you don't mind me bringing these possibilities to the forum. My price range may make it impossible for me to find a quality fit.

I had posted earlier about considering a 6' Vose and Sons that is for sale for a really good price. Owner thinks it may be between 40-50 years old. Opinions please?

Wilf,

One of the best things you could do is check out "A&D Piano Buyer" by Larry Fine. The free online version is available here:

http://www.pianobuyer.com/

I recommend purchasing the print version as it is just easier for page flipping and doing research.

Don't trust that a 100 year old name still comes from a company which is still in business or that the new pianos can be compared to the original quality of the company. There are two American companies which built very fine pianos. They are Chickering and Knabe. The names still exist on fallboards but the new instruments have nothing to do with the originals and you can't make a judgement by the name alone. This is where the book is helpful. It will give a brief history of a "name" and then indicate what company is using the name on new instruments. These pianos are referred to as "Stencils."

That is why I asked my very first question in this thread. The seller did not indicate that it was a new instrument when they purchased it in the mid-80's. If it had been a fully rebuilt and original Zimmermann from the nineteenth century, it could be a fine piano. As others have said, the piano in the ad would not be a good choice.

Wilf,

Here is a quote from Roberts Piano, a British piano dealer. It says it all:

Zimmerman pianos made prior to 1940 are of good quality and restore very well. Later baby grands and uprights tend to be of lower to medium quality, the common baby grands often having a heavy and uneven action. However as of 1992, they have been taken over by Bechstein, who produce a fine piano with the Zimmerman name.

Bottom line: Made 1888-1939 - consider it.
Made 1940-1992 - forget it.
Made 1993 onwards - consider it.

With very rare exceptions, "company" and "government" were more or less synonymous in the Iron Curtain countries, as these countries nationalized nearly all companies. Quality suffered terribly.

The only products that eastern European countries made with anything like the quality of Western competitors were armaments, provided they didn't have a lot of electronics.

The situation in China is dramatically different, as most of its economy is now in private hands.

Andy

You may be right GG but you`ll have to be prepared to defend all those beautifully crafted, precision made Kimballs, Wurlitzers and Aeolians from the post-war period against the ghastly Bluthners thrown together by slaves at the same time.

Having said that, I remember being sent to try out a Zimmermann upright (probably around `85 or `86) I reported back that it was nearly as bad as a Samick.

J-C.

Good product? One has to define the word good. I sold Zimmerman back inthe 80's. i have never had a complaint that they didn't play properly with professional and comprehensive or that they failed to hold a tune like any piano of integrity. I sold them to ordinary people who had no great talent, but aspired to do better with their abilities. In that way the piano served the buyer well. I service one in a church which since it has a stable humidity, and twice yearly service continues to hold tune nicely. Since the action of this one is regulated well, by myself, it really plays nicely and pleases everyone in this sweet little church. I just bought one -- a mahogany with chipoendale legs. Moving it I was reminded it has very substantial construction. It is still pretty heavy. Some veneer has split off the bottom of the pedal lyre, but we can fix that. The rest is beautiful and the pins are tight. Without comprehensive service by a top tier technician who knows what he is doing, it will be like any other neglected piano -- a half-baked instrument.

Hey, this is what I like about Piano World... one man's trash is another man's treasure!

I played an older Zimmerman upright at a dealer and it sounded and played okay to me; the cabinet looked pretty nice too.

OTOH, beauty (and quality) is in the eye of the beholder...

Rick

Since you seem opposed of taking a hint what the products were like in previous communist countries related to all their stuff including cars, furniture, instruments etc, I would suggest you buy the piano.

The come back later and ask how we can help with your troubles.

Guaranteed to have some fun since the East Germans took great care building pianos specifically for the extremely dry climate of Alberta....

Norbert

One piano can be bad from a business judgement oriented toward profit and the bottom line in a financial statement. Yet at the same time the same piano may play well, sounds decent and advances the life of the real value -- the human being. In that respect it is good. Another consideration is a piano that is highly collectable -- one fit for a museum would be good for historical or aesthetic admiration but bad for advancing human talents in that it no longer can be tuned or played properly. We should split these nuances as we judge.

Happy Birthday Norbert !!!

Thank you very much - golden 65!!

Competitors: don't start dancing anticipating early retirement...

Norbert

norbert, do you suggest that the zimmermann of the postwar, pre-wall-fall period could be construed as the 'Trabi' of pianos?

If it was much much cheaper it might be worth it for a furniture piece, and piano for occasional use. In East Germany there were several brands producing basically the same piano. I remember one in a school I was at by the name of Niendorf or something, it was bought new in 1984. I remember the piano at school as a pupil and thinking it was a bit rubbish when I was 12 to 17. Then I went back to give a concert at the school last year, and the piano was still standing, and it still played. It sounded pretty rubbish but no worse than I remember from when it was newer.

Even Bluthner from the communist period should probably be avoided. In Bluthner's case they had good designs because the family still ran the firm, but the materials and build quality were not that good. The London showroom sometimes gets them in on part-exchange, and services them (not rebuilding, but servicing), and they sound OK but perhaps if you are a non-professional musician, or a non-pianist musician they can be OK. For a concert pianist, I would avoid them and go for a different brand, or a Bluthner from either before or after the communist period.

There may be more experienced technicians on the forum who can refute my experiences and tell me that some of these pianos are actually quite good, so I'd be happy to read more information.

Well this has all been very interesting. First let me say that I am not in agreement with anything communist. This started off with me being led to believe that "German made", meant good quality. I still think that the idea that nothing of quality has ever come from the eastern block is probably a bit like some peoples opinion that all Chinese pianos are poor quality. Remember, the communists beat us to space. Albeit their safety record was certainly pretty bad.

Anyway, I am actually leaning towards a Kawai or Yamaha if I can find one priced right. In the meantime, when I see a reasonable price on something else, I hope I can ask for opinions without being raked over the coals.

For the record, Norbert, my Sister-in-law bought a piano from you and I am interested in a piano you currently have in inventory.

Thanks,


Wilf

Make sure he gives you a good deal, because he doesn't have an ad here on PW...

Rick

This is exactly what the dealers who sold those pianos made the public to believe. Zimmermans were not 'bad-bad' but they had nothing to do with what one would normally expect from "made in Germany"

Re Yamaha and Kawai, thanks but I'm not the best to ask.
Vancouver Craigslist and others have so many used ones for sale, they should be almost free...

Good luck.

Norbert

I don't talk about politics here, but I made researches and I worked 6 years in Communist countries before 1989.

Communist products are not consumer-oriented, but state-plan oriented. So they can produce good rockets, space programs (as you mentioned), good weapons (AK is the best in the world, especially in guerilla conditions) during the Cold war, medal oriented athletes (their athletes gathered a lot of medals, especially East Germany, and now we know how they were doped).

Do you know where the price of consumer products like irons or fans ... were? They were graved on metal plaque and bolted or welded on the products (note: this practice was not universal, but happened here and there, just enough to illustrate the situation)

Why? Because everything were planned by some bureaucracy somewhere (input, output, price ...). No marketing research was necessary, no fear of competitor, therefore the prices were fix and can be bolted or graved on the products.

In these working conditions, were workers stimulated to work well, work better, produce good products? No, no and no, because whatever they do will have no impact on their payrolls, no promotions, no nothing.

So a piano Made in East Germany before 1989 is for sure better than pianos made in other Communist countries because their Germany heritages still had something that could not be faded in just a few decades (1945 -> 1989).

Larry F. made an interesting comparison between car and piano industries. So please compare BMW, Mercedes, Audi of West Germany to any car brands of East Germany in the same period (1945 -> 1989)and have conclusion for East Germany pianos.

It's really hard for someone who never experienced it to comprehend the abysmal quality of Communist-era consumer goods. Without market forces, Iron Curtain economies supplied them erratically. Women in Czechoslovakia had to use rags for menstrual pads because none of their bureaucrats thought to provide for sanitary napkins. When I was in that country in 1966, about a third of the cars on the road were pre-WWII models, much like the situation in Cuba today where people do anything they can to keep their pre-Revolution American belchers going. I even saw people hand-cranking cars that must have been from the twenties.

If you've ever seen the film Moscow on the Hudson, you may have thought the scenes of everyday deprivation were exaggerated. They weren't. On the contrary, when I asked my cousin who immigrated from Moscow around the time that film was set, she said conditions were actually much worse than the film depicted. I had visited her parents in Moscow in 1966, but they were so frightened of the risks of foreign contact that they didn't tell my parents that their daughter was not only in Moscow but attending the same conference as my dad. I played my great-uncle's grand piano. He was a music professor at Moscow State University and had the rare privilege of an extra room to accommodate the instrument. Thus their "apartment" was two rooms in a chopped-up palace with a communal kitchen and a single bathroom shared by 33 people.

Andy

China today is a completely different story that was once East Europe, including East Germany I say this as someone whose own family had taken the brunt for decades over there, appreciating every single food package we sent them...

The real shame was that many Western piano dealers took advantage of the "confusing" situation marketing Eastern products as "made in Germany" when in reality Zimmermans had nothing to do with Steinway, Grotrian, Sauters and the like of Western Germany.

That's all.

Norbert

Well, it’s not often that I play the devil’s advocate (don’t even like the sound of that ) but has anyone thought about that fact that, if the top-end and better piano makers can build a lemon on occasion, perhaps there might be a Zimmerman that is an anomaly and a rather nice instrument?

What happened to judging a piano individually and on its own merits? (Innocent until proven guilty?)

Okay, I’ve stopped playing the devil’s advocate and will ask for forgiveness…

Rick

The problem is Rick, none of us here knows that particular piano. We can only offer general advice on the common regard and reputation of any given piano.

East Germany's answer to BMW.

Yes, but this is due to previous East German spies infiltrating some Western companies.

After all, they needed to be employed somewhere....

Not sure if any of them made it to Hailun.

Norbert

It's very kind of you to post this picture but are you sure that it's an '86 Baldwin SF-10?

It's the East German knock-off, a Trabaldwin.

You Frenchies are so silly.

I might admit to a certain silliness (?sp.) on my own part but I don't think it right to tar the whole French nation with the same brush. Was Descartes silly? Was Fauré given to facaetiousness? (?sp., again) Did Napoléon make frivolous little quips even as he retreated from Moscow? Is President Hollande an imbecile?

Well, as you say in America, three out of four ain't bad.

J-C.

Good evening Marty, I truely appreciate the little green laughing chap who I will always think of as 'Minnesota Martian'

What I meant to say in my previous post was:

'When you're running down my country, Horse,
You're walking on the fightin' side of me'

J-C.

"There is nothing lower than the human race...except for the French." - Mark Twain 1878-79

“You know the good part about all those executions in Texas? Fewer Texans”

George Carlin.

J-C,

Have you ever noticed that Ray Walston and Serge Rachmaninoff look like twins? He liked Salad Niçoise very much. That's Rachmaninoff, not the alien.

Cheers!

Well, I can`t say I had ever noticed the similarity; Mr Walston is perhaps less well-known in France than in the US. I looked him up however and found that he was born in New Orleans which reminded me of:

I was born in Louisiana,
Down on the old bayou,
Raised on shrimps and catfish,
And Mamie`s good gumbo,
I caught this ramblin` fever,
Said goodbye to Ma and Pa,
I crossed that ol` Red River,
And this is what I saw......

I saw miles and miles of idiots.....

J-C.

French speaking Creoles, I am sure.

I'm glad to know that I'm still Your Favorite Martian, however.

Far be it (if I may allow myself an English subjunctive) from me to correct a native American (can one say that?) but if you cross the Red River from Louisiana do you not see miles and miles of Texas? Or indeed Texans.

The Sabine river separates Louisiana and Texas, but it does not stop the Creoles on the east from seeking the promised land of Texas.

The piano has a nice finish.

Amongst all the Martians that I have ever encountered Marty, you are certainly my favourite.

J-C.

New question here, oddly enough, - related to pianos. I hope I don't create a new firestorm, but can anyone tell me about Kimball Viennese grands. I am looking at an ad for one that is about 25 years old. Looks nice. It's hundreds of miles from here. I am planning a trip to the area to look at several, but I would like input before I go. Is it Chinese? German? (east or west), Korean? (north or south) or American? ( if so, do the owners vote D or R?)

Seriously, though, I am interested in knowing about the piano brand if someone has insight.

Thanks,

Wilf

Wilf:

Nothing wrong with a little firestorm here and there...

Now:

Kimball Viennese were later type U.S. made pianos when company owned Bosendorfer. Some of them were nice sounding, some not so much. Quality control was definitely less than desirable. I saw some of them with panels coming off: brand new: rumors had it that finishing work, especially polyester work was done in Mexico. Company didn't last of course, the rest is history.

If piano is free of charge, giving it second look.

If not, others at same/ similar price range need to be compared.

Personally I doubt it "would make the cut".

best wishes,

Norbert

Norbert is the expert here, but when I was looking for a 7 footer I could afford, I came across a late 1970’s 6’8” Kimball Viennese grand and I was actually impressed with the way it played and sounded. I may well have bought it, but the piano was very dirty/greasy, like it had been in a restaurant or something. It could have been cleaned up, I suppose, but I decided to pass due to some discrepancies in the owner’s explanation of the piano’s history, and he wanted a high price.

If I’m not mistaken, I’ve read that those pianos had a laminated sound board and could be very nice sounding and playing pianos; not sure where they were made. Unlike Norbert, I would give it a close look and serious consideration, depending on price and condition.

Good luck!

Rick

So, thanks to everyone for the feedback. Looks like it comes down to a Yamaha G1 or a Baldwin of similar size for similar money. The Yamaha is about 25 years old. I am trying to find the age of the Baldwin but am not having any success. Can anyone tell me the age and where it was made. serial number MP 50561. And is it comparable to the Yamaha


Thanks