A few comments on recent threads got me thinking that it might be of some value to start a thread based on the actual experiences of those who have bought a piano made in China new or used at any point since their introduction into the international marketplace.
Here are the ground rules.
1. Owners should report their instrument as to maker and model and how long they have had it, and whether it was purchased new or used.
2. Owners should report what actual problems there have been with the instrument’s ability to stay at the performance level which initially motivated them to buy it
3. Owners should not refer to the dealer from whom whey bought in either a positive or negative way. All comments should be about the instrument.
4. Owners should refrain from such comments as:
a) My piano sings to me
b) I tried Schlemmel, Boesenstadt, and Piano Pasta Fagioli, but I bought a Dong Xhu
c) The beautiful French provincial cabinet draws favorable comments from all my visitors
d) My tuner was shocked by how little such a fine piano cost
5. Rather than these types of comments, owners should simply describe any problems encountered and whether and how the problems were resolved, and the owner's general level of satisfaction with the instrument’s ability to perform through the break-in period and into its mature years (where applicable)
6. Dealers, salesmen, and distributors should not post on this thread.
7. Tuners and technicians should only post if they in fact own the instrument under consideration and use it personally in their home
Ok, here's my testimonial. I got my 7 foot Nordiska in April 2005, primarily for recording purposes, my wife being a professional player. She plays allot of different pianos. Some are the creme de la creme. Others... pso's. We shopped around trying anything and everything for a couple of years. Came very close to buying a used Bosendorfer located a distance from us, but settled on the Nordiska because it sounded and played so fantistically without putting such a dent in my bank account. My wife initially preferred one of their baby grands but I prevailed on getting the larger model which I preferred, having had the best success in the past recording pianos in the 7-foot range. And everthing seemed beefier to me in the 7-foot model compared to their baby grands.
So far, it's been holding up spectacularly. Had it Dampe Chasered and tuning after the 1st year has been rock solid. My last recording session on it was at the end of last Oct, and the tuner who sits in on every session hasn't needed to revist since... but reminded me its time anyway.
I might also add that my wife did a live concert on a Fazioli F278 last November (CD released just last week, btw). Which piano she reports was the finest she's ever encountered in her life. And she experienced no withdrawal pains, ill effects, or regrets returning home to our Nordiska. Ok, I still sometimes have this stange recurring dream.
Howard
Neat idea turandot.
I have a 48" studio upright Hardman Peck by Dongbei. Bought it new a year ago with a dampp chaser installed. Had it tuned twice. Each time it's only needed touching up.
So far I an perfectly happy with it.
Ken
OK I seem to be repeating myself but here goes.
I have a 161cm Webdl & Lung grand (that's about 5' 8"), purchased new just over a year ago.
It's been tuned 3 times since then - first time 5 -6 weeks after delivery, which was perhaps too soon but I was doing a recital at home and wanted it to sound good. Next time 5 months after delivery, after a very cold, wet summer - it was quite badly out of tune then, and to be honest the tuning was great afterwards. And again 11 months after purchase, after which it sounds beautiful.
There is a consistent weakness in an octave from about c upwards. It's always been like that, and I thought long and hard about this when buying it. The tech's been able to bring out the notes a little more, and to be honest no one else notices it but me, and even then only in a few pieces where I really need a long sustain on some of those highish notes.
The other problem I've had is some of the black keys sticking, again in the high register. The tech fixed this under warranty. I don't know exactly what he did (I wasn't there at the time) but the first time it took him a little while to find out the exact cause, the 2nd time it occurred he fixed it within 10 minutes. I put it down to the central heating coming on in the house as that's more or less when it started. No sign of it recurring since the 2nd intervention.
When buying I looked at a lot of instruments, including the Wendl & Lung 178cm grand. I have a (vaguely) amusing story about how I thought I was playing the larger piano and really heard the difference compared with the smaller, only to find I was confused and in the fact the smaller piano sounded better!
Yes I agree, the unknown is build quality in the long term. Some information on the UK Piano Forum (
http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/index.php) said that pianos built since January 2006 had a better quality - so I made sure that the one I bought had been bought since then, and took the risk.
The tech who sold me the piano was very knowledgeable about the company, and was completely open about the Chinese origins. No complaints there.
Well, I purchased a Perzina GP129 (large upright) in January, and I am pretty happy with it so far. The sound is lovely--darker than a Yamaha, but brighter than a Kawaii, I would say, and the touch is even. I really love the bass.
As a result, I'm practicing more & posting less.
I have one small problem, and the dealer is working with me to solve it. Several keys squeak (tiny baby-mouse-like squeaks that I can hear but a listener a few feet away cannot, which happen on only a few keys). The dealer has sent out two different techs, and each time they got rid of the squeaks (first tech cleaned the keybed carefully, the second one lubricated all 88 keys), but the squeaks came back. Last time, the original squeaking keys stopped squeaking, but now several others do. They will be sending out another tech to work on it later this month. I'll report on success in getting rid of the squeaks.
So, is this a Chinese piano quality problem, or just a new piano problem?
Margaret
I own a Charles Walter console
1. Wendl & Lung, Mod 161 (5'4")- serial nr. 15966, purchased new beginning of Dec. 2006.
2. -Tuned 6 weeks after delivery; tone is quite stable but knows the dealer tunes his instruments regularly in his showroom (so must have been tuned at least twice during the 3 months is was sitting in the showroom; no Damp Chasser installed but rel. humidity is closely monitored and held within a bracket of 42% - 50% by means of a Venta room humidifyer (room has water circuit floor heating; temp. steady throughout the year at 21-24°C)
- Routine keyboard and action check after 3 months with minor regulations and lubrication
- Since about 1 month a faint click is noticible in 5 to 6 keys in the range between key 37&53; so far dealer could not spot the problem but after direct contact with Wendl&Lung, Vienna, who is now sorting out what might be wrong (expecting feeback within next two days from them)I expect this minor problem will be solved on May 29th when the dealer is coming along for a thorough action regulation (W&L sent a copy of my question to the dealer and will also brief him about their upcoming recommendations)
- Some dampers show some "whooshing" when the right pedal is depressed; trimming of damper felt on some tri-chord dampers may be required.
3. According to the set rules it is not allowed to refer to the dealer, which I won't do; my description of how problems are tackled show however how important the dealer, the service of the manufacturer to the enduser and the relationship between the manufacturer and his dealer network is. I remember having posted once something like " a piano is only as good as the dealer is"; this also reminds me of a discussion in a recent thread about what regulation may be expected and the replies showed this was quite critical for the "tier 1's" aswell as for our Chinese pianos we are now talking about!
schwammerl.
Hi Margaret, that is a good question. I've wondered the same thing. A few months after buying my Perzina grand, a jack hammer on one of the keys fell game unglued, so I had to call a tech to come out and glue it back on, but I've often wondered if this kind of stuff happens with other non-Chinese made pianos, or this is just new normal new piano stuff.
Originally posted by Margaret M:
So, is this a Chinese piano quality problem, or just a new piano problem?
Yesterday over in the piano tech forum I read this absolutely wonderful post by Sam Casey, which I will take the liberty of copying and pasting here, because I think it is directly relevant to your question:
[From Sam Casey] "New pianos are new wire and wood. A piano is a organic instrument, a complex bit of wooden machinery under tremendous string pressure. The purchase of a piano is the beginning of a relationship and as all relationships, requires a bit a patience and forgiveness. New pianos are most vulnerable to funny sounds, tuning instability, sticking keys, etc. You should expect this for a year. I've never met a salesmen who had the guts to tell a customer the truth about a new piano's inherant tendancy to problems and never met a customer who did not understand and accept the fact when I serviced their piano. It simple common sense. Work with your tuner and if he/she are competent you will have a instrument to last a life time."
I am the custodian (the owner of the lounge where I play bought it for my exclusive use and I do all of the tuning and repairs) of a Pearl River grand (@5'8") which has proved to be a tremendously good value. My only disappointment is that the piano was delivered in the crate directly to the lounge with a promise that the dealer would de-bug it and voice it to our specs. We ended up having to do that ourselves, but the piano ended up being a very nice instrument (especially for $6,300 in Dec of '05). The tuning pins are not as tight as I would have expected, but they have plenty of torque to do the job. I also intend to 'turn' the coiled strings to see if I can improve the bass. My biggest objection to the piano just out of the crate was that it needed a lot of voicing to sound like the same piano throughout the keybd. The piano is tuned every 6 months at which time the action is removed and all of the contact points lubricated (including the damper wire bushings). Once we got beyond what should have been dealer prep, it has been very reliable and I would be surprised if it didn't last a lifetime or two.
So - to sum up:
A. If you bought a Pearl River grand out of the box (and did your own set-up) you would have 1) easily fixed routine bugs (occassional stuck dampers, a buzz here and there, etc.), 2) a lot of voicing needed to get uniform tone throughout, and 3) an adequate but mediocre bass. I plan to turn the wound strings to improve the bass. The piano has worked out so well that I might even replace the bass strings if I'm not satisfied after tightening the coils.
B. If you buy a Pearl River from a dealer, you should have a reliable piano that's ready to go. Just make sure that you have it tuned at least once a year at which point the tech will check for and correct any problems. So far as the bass is concerned, the bass as it comes from the factory is adequate (and far superior to what the bass was on average pianos 25 years ago). If you're not satisfied ask the dealer if he'd be willing to have a tech tighten the coils. I don't know yet if replacing bass strings will yield results that warrant the cost, but I'll report on that later. Also, I should point out that, when listening to recordings of this piano, the bass sounds fine. It's when I'm tuning (and being really picky) that I want to improve the bass.
C. If I bought a piano out of the crate from PR again I'd special order it with hammers that were easier to voice. That aside, I wouldn't hesitate to buy sight unseen.
Of all the folks on the board, I think I'm the granddaddy of Chinese piano owners. The piano is a Nordiska 5'5".
Y'all can go back and read about my personal piano safari...the stuff is still there, but it's a bit moldy, of course.
Why did I choose this particular instrument?
Value. The little grand offered a tremendous amount of value for the dollar spent. It's no Steinway, but I'm no Horowitz. Within the parameters of what my wife and I play, it doesn't do an outstanding job. It does do a very good job.
For the money spent, you get a fairly musical piano, you get that nice sexy grand look, and you get the action benefits of the grand. After buying the piano from a tech who owned his own store and taking delivery, I was satisfied with my purchase. After turning my tech loose on it (my tech is VERY good), it became a much better instrument.
Problems? Other than a squeeky pedal, none. Nada. Zippola. Tune it twice a year and play it.
In my piano purchase, I decided not to go First Class. I've got other things in my life that also demand time and money.
So, although I didn't spend the big bucks, I still get get a ride to the musical destination we all seek.
I kinda like it in Coach....
Hi Jolly,
You’re a darn good writer! You expressed yourself rather well there.
I share your thoughts regarding your Chinese made piano. However, my 20 year old grand piano is made in Japan (although the brand, Tokai, seems to be an outcast here on the forum
).
I feel the same about my 5’ 11.5†Tokai as you do about your Nordiska; great musical bang for the buck; no regrets
.
Also, no one in my immediate or extended family or my particular circle of friends has a piano as nice as mine
.
Best regards,
Rickster
Monica wrote (quoting Sam Casey):
. . . New pianos are most vulnerable to funny sounds, tuning instability, sticking keys, etc. You should expect this for a year. I've never met a salesmen who had the guts to tell a customer the truth about a new piano's inherant tendancy to problems and never met a customer who did not understand and accept the fact when I serviced their piano. . .
Thanks, Monica. I am treating it as a "new piano" issue, and the dealer is quite willing to work on it till the squeaks are fixed. I had to put them off because I couldn't take off work, so the tech is coming on the 19th. I really hope they can get rid of the squeaks. Most of them are in the second octave above middle C, and I find them distracting, even though nobody sitting on the couch listening (a rare occurrance) can hear them. Since I play mostly for myself, I figure that if they bother *me* they should be fixed.
They are "odd" sqeaks (tiny wheet-wheet when the key is depressed, even if it is not depressed far enough or fast enough to sound). I searched on the tech forum and here to see if I could find something like that described, and possible fixes, but didn't find anything that really matched.
My impression is that this is likely a new-piano issue, not a Chinese-piano-quality issue, but thought I'd ask if anyone had had similar problems with their Chinese-made instruments.
In every other respect, I love my Perzina, and I am making good progress in imroving my (VERY amateur) playing.
Cheers,
Margaret
Hi Margaret,
Reading your post reminded me that I had not disclosed here my own piano and the issue of the plastic part that I described to you a while back. So here goes.
Nordiska 126
I've had it for three months. No sound problems, but I did lose the left pedal one day while playing. When I opened the piano, I noticed that a small plastic collar with a nipple to connect two struts of the pedal linkage had broken. I also noticed that these plastic collars were used in other parts of the pedal linkage as well. Instead of asking the dealer to send someone to replace the collar, I asked that he send me a few replacements in the mail, figuring that I might need more later. He did. I replaced the one and put the others aside in case the problem occurs again later.
Other than that I have no issues so far. although the piano (just like me and probably because of me) has a bad day now and then.
I don't personally own this brand of piano, but my re-builder does, and he's been in the piano business for over 40 years, so I give this info with that caveat.
He purchased several Lothar Schell pianos last year, a grand and a few uprights, with the intention of installing player systems in them. He is very impressed with their quality. I have spoken with him several times and he mentioned these facts to me.....he says the sound is excellent, and they did not need that much prep work to get them to sound good. He is very impressed!
At the risk of being flamed (by someone who has not posted on this thread!
) here goes...
I regularly rehearse and perform on a 7-footer Nordiska. When it was new several dampers were sticking, but that has resolved. I don't know if a tech fixed it, or if the piano just needed to acclimate to the environment (I don't own the piano).
I have some issues with the action (no doubt it just needs a bit of adjustment) and tone (I wish the treble was brighter and a bit more projecting), but since it is not my piano I don't have any say. The venue has a tight budget so I'm just happy that they have a new piano!
The main quality control issue, in my opinion: several rubber buttons have fallen out.
Otherwise, I like the fact that it is a 7' grand, and sounds like one. The piano doesn't sound like others I've played, so in that regard it interests me.
Originally posted by whippen boy:
At the risk of being flamed (by someone who has not posted on this thread! ) here goes...
I regularly rehearse and perform on a 7-footer Nordiska. When it was new several dampers were sticking, but that has resolved. I don't know if a tech fixed it, or if the piano just needed to acclimate to the environment (I don't own the piano).
I have some issues with the action (no doubt it just needs a bit of adjustment) and tone (I wish the treble was brighter and a bit more projecting), but since it is not my piano I don't have any say. The venue has a tight budget so I'm just happy that they have a new piano!
The main quality control issue, in my opinion: several rubber buttons have fallen out.
Otherwise, I like the fact that it is a 7' grand, and sounds like one. The piano doesn't sound like others I've played, so in that regard it interests me. This is a warts and all thread. Your contribution is most welcome.
A tech whom I admire a great deal once told me the biggest knock he had against the 7-foot Nordiska was that he wished they had a little bigger hammershank and hammer. He felt there was more power in the design, if the hammer weight was there to produce it.
Originally posted by Jolly:
A tech whom I admire a great deal once told me the biggest knock he had against the 7-foot Nordiska was that he wished they had a little bigger hammershank and hammer. He felt there was more power in the design, if the hammer weight was there to produce it. [/QB]
The tech who services my piano, who is also a Nordiska dealer, said the same thing. There's just not quite enough mass for his taste.
That begs the question, however. Supposedly, the 7 foot Nordiska (and I've played it, BTW, it's a great piano), has a Renner action. Does Renner put lightweight hammer (shanks) on some of their actions?
From My April 26th thread: Our New Brodmann BG187 Tuned and Tweaked - here is the part of that post that meets our new tread requirements, or course I feel that turandot inspiration for this thread came from my post. Ha.
The independent piano tech - an active member of the local PTG - just finished going through our new Brodmann BG187 a 6’ 2†grand and tuning it for the first time. Our tech had to make a minor adjustment to the placement of the Langer action, added a felt to one of the keys as it depressed further than the others and adjusted one key for a squeak. The action is now quiet and responsive, but the best part is the piano is now really in tune. What a difference – duh. These adjustment and first tuning required less than 2 hours time. Note that I was wowed by the magic our PTG tech performed. The keyboard issue and squeak to me are a result of the piano movers; they had to remove the action to install the legs, one of the bolt/ nut assemblies was crossed threaded probably by an American/dealer. (I was amazed at how the action slides out - remember I am new to pianos) The dealer or Brodmann should have caught the felt, but it was NBD. We did not press our tech for comments about our new Brodmann piano he did offer, "this is a fine piano, a well built instrument". This was the first Brodmann piano he had ever seen, as there are no local dealers in our town at this time. I could not agree more.
Update to that thread: A 7' Bosey owner stopped by our home and she thrilled us with her talent, she was the first real musician to play our new piano. As a teacher and performer, she thoroughly enjoyed playing our little Brodmann, similar coloration of tone, wonderful touch and a worthy instrument for her grand daughter to learn how to play the piano on. See Rosie photo's on that thread. Only time will tell how our Brodmann and childern age.
That begs the question, however. Supposedly, the 7 foot Nordiska (and I've played it, BTW, it's a great piano), has a Renner action. Does Renner put lightweight hammer (shanks) on some of their actions?
To be honest, George, I don't know. I'm guessing Renner will put together an action just about however a manufacturer specs it.
Here's an interesting thought, though...5 years ago we were debating about whether the Chinese could build a decent piano. Now, we're debating about how they can tweak what they've got to compete with some of the better pianos out there.
Has anyone attempted replacing the hammers and shanks in a Nordiska 7-footer to get that extra power out of the instrument?
Doing this is expensive tech work but still quite a bit less than the price difference between a Nordiska and a high-end American or European brand.
So here's an interesting turn of thought...Baldwin goes into the Dongbei factory, takes this 7-footer, and tweaks some more "umph" into it. They put the Baldwin decal on the fallboard, and ship it out to the dealers.
Your local dealer puts it out on the floor for 20K, asking.
Things that make you go hmmm.....
I know it's about double the price, but if you really want the power, their 9-footer likely has a little more bang to it. And still not a bad deal for a piano that size. I've never seen one yet myself but a friend's been looking at one so I might get the chance.
Howard
Well not quite 7' but at 6'2" the Hamilton H401 is just that a Chinese sourced piano by Baldwin. The only issue I had with the H401 is the dealer tried to retained too much of the current "Chinese" value at least at the start to compete with Brodmann. Also Brodmanns include "named" branded components such as; Strunz soundboard, Abel Hammers, Langer action, Burkel turn block, etc. That and coupled with a difference philosophy of when and where to do inspection, Baldwin does not send their master piano technicians to China they send the piano to AR, while Brodmann send it's master technicians to their Chinese partners plant to ensure all stages of mfg. Result fewer issues out the box? That is what this thread is about.
I own a Perzina GP129, and I still think it is one of the nicest sounding pianos I've ever heard. Like Margaret, I love the bass. No problems with my piano so far, but I did have a defective bench. The store I bought it from replaced it with a new bench. The defective bench broke where the height adjustment mechanism is. Some how it got bent. No problems with the new bench.
My wife and I recently purchased a new Steigerman Premium 178 (5'-10") in polished ebony. We are impatiently waiting for the first tuning and adjustment. Aside from being currently somewhat out of tune, a couple of keys sound louder or quieter than they should.
I haven't had any quality issues yet. the fit and finish seem quite good. A couple of minor things - When I look *very* closely at the seams between the pieces of wood, the finish is somewhat uneven and not polished. When I lie down under the piano, the bottom of the laminated rim has not been planed or polished. I have never done this with another piano, so I don't know how much one needs to pay for that kind of attention to detail. I also realize that pressing one's nose against a piano to see into the crevices and lying underneath a piano are not normal pastimes
Our piano has the optional Renner action which my wife claims to be as good as anything she tried. It was really the touch that sold her on the piano. I am pretty much a raw beginner, so I my comments on touch wouldn't mean much.
A friend came to town from Seattle last weekend. She is an accomplished pianist (as is my wife). Our friend has an old upright at home. It was really fun to watch her react to the grand as she played it. She practically jumped of the bench with delight playing the louder bits - it was a great cure for buyer's remorse (for what it's worth, I also experienced buyer's remorse as a kid when I bought a clock radio at a sidewalk sale :rolleyes: ).
Our piano is certainly not the best piano on the planet, but it is good enough that I have taken up lessons and I have played every day since it was delivered, except when I've been out of town.
Just my contribution to this thread. I bought my Wendl & Lung 178 in October last year. After spending a summer on searching, I chose my grand mainly for value reasons. I could not (and did not want to) extend my budget. I'm an adult beginner who enjoys playing the piano with no intentions ever to become a professional.
I have to admit that I bought this grand almost out of the box, with very little dealer prep. From the first moment it arrived at my place I was very much disappointed. OMG what did I buy! It sounded woodier than I remembered and the notes in the higher octaves did not sing, they sounded "plienk-plienk". I can tell you the first month it sat in my room I suffered from buyers remorse every time I played it. After a month I called the dealer to do the first free tuning. He came, "did" the tuning in less than half an hour and left me even more unhappy than I already was. By the end of December I told him that I was very unhappy with it and that I intended to have it taken back. Then he suggested to have a colleague tuner/tech to do another tuning. She came and it took her 4 hours to do all necessary things: tuning, lubrication, pedal adjustment, better pitch (in my ears it was too low, which she admitted). And honestly, she did a very good job. The touch is light and the sound is more to my likings except the f an actave above middle C, which still sounds a bit harsh and out of tune. As we had a very warm and dry April I think it's wise to have it tuned again within a few weeks.
So far I'm happy with my grand. I now can feel the benefits of a grand (action, sound, sustain) even though I still like my old upright. I like to play classical pieces, as well as Einaudi stuff, no jazz. Not sure that I will keep it for ever, I'm dreaming of having a Bluthner grand some day. I never played an Estonia, although Mr. Venno Laul invited me to come over to his factory. But in the meantime I'd better improve my skills.
The Pearl River UP117 is a nice instrument. Looks good, plays nice, and has a great value. There are many better pianos on earth for much more money, but there's nothing wrong with pearl river pianos. They are well built.
What does this thread absolutely scream out?
For me, it's the thirteen owners who responded to the initial thread starter.
Guys, I know more than 13 Nordiska grand owners that were/are members here.
Over the years I've been here, there have probably been hundreds of Chinese pianos bought through member questions and research. Apparently, those folks are no longer here.
So, what practical use is this observation? What I believe, is that a small cadre of dedicated enthuisiasts for ANY one brand, be it W&L, Estonia, M&H, Nordiska, etc...can make that brand appear more popular than it is.
People who join this board do not stay, not for the vast majority. It's an information hub, the piano purchase is made, and folks don't wander back.
I don't think the board moves a ton of pianos...but if you can somehow make your piano the hot piano on the board, you can affect sales, especially in the smaller, boutique-type pianos.
Earlier I wrote
I have one small problem, and the dealer is working with me to solve it. Several keys squeak (tiny baby-mouse-like squeaks that I can hear but a listener a few feet away cannot, which happen on only a few keys). The dealer has sent out two different techs, and each time they got rid of the squeaks (first tech cleaned the keybed carefully, the second one lubricated all 88 keys), but the squeaks came back. Last time, the original squeaking keys stopped squeaking, but now several others do. They will be sending out another tech to work on it later this month. I'll report on success in getting rid of the squeaks.
So, is this a Chinese piano quality problem, or just a new piano problem?
As promised, I now report the outcome: the squeaks are well and truly gone. The thing that fixed it was lubricating the key bushing for the balance rail guide pin felts. (The theory was it might be dampers, but the sqeaking occurred before the damper was even engaged.)
After watching the work & talking to people about it, I think it's pretty clear that this qualifies as a normal new-piano problem, not some problem with the quality of this Chinese-made piano (a Perzina GP 129). According to the tech, they wash all of the lanolin out of the wool in new pianos (to prevent moth damage) and if felts squeak, they need lubrication (and there seem to be a lot of places where this can happen.)
So, now all is well, my piano is perfect, and I love it even more. Not trying to influence sales one way or another, but for my needs this piano was just the ticket.
.
Update on my Chinese piano - I moved house last week, so the piano is in a new home now. The new room is quite different - smaller, lower ceiling. BUt the piano sounds great - yes it sounds louder, but not overpowering.
The best thing is that weak octave I mentioned seems to have been been cured - I'm not quite sure how but perhaps the different accoustics and resonances just mean the notes sing out a bit more. Don't really care - just happy! I would post pictures but my house is still full of boxes...
Man, look at all the "little things" that need work on these suckers, someone is making some $$$. I guess you get what you pay for!
Man, look at all the "little things" that need work on these suckers, someone is making some $$$. I guess you get what you pay for!
What a thoughtful, elegant and informative remarkk this is! From someone who in another thread claims:
I am a salesman and I play, I've spent most of my life educating "players" like yourself on how not to waste their money on cheap pianos, wherever they come from.
Anyone who does a search on this forum or the tuners-technicians forum for "little things" on any "Tier1,2,3........." will find tons of remarks similar to the ones made by the owners in this thread.
Or should all owners have claimed their piano is supreme without any faults or weaknesses? What would they then be accused off?
Good point, Schwammerl.
Here's a post on the tuners forum about quite a few "little things" on a new Steinway grand.
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/3/2699.html Rickster
Originally posted by Monica Kern:
Originally posted by Margaret M:
[b] So, is this a Chinese piano quality problem, or just a new piano problem?
Yesterday over in the piano tech forum I read this absolutely wonderful post by Sam Casey, which I will take the liberty of copying and pasting here, because I think it is directly relevant to your question:
[From Sam Casey] "New pianos are new wire and wood. A piano is a organic instrument, a complex bit of wooden machinery under tremendous string pressure. The purchase of a piano is the beginning of a relationship and as all relationships, requires a bit a patience and forgiveness. New pianos are most vulnerable to funny sounds, tuning instability, sticking keys, etc. You should expect this for a year. I've never met a salesmen who had the guts to tell a customer the truth about a new piano's inherent tendency to problems and never met a customer who did not understand and accept the fact when I serviced their piano. It simple common sense. Work with your tuner and if he/she are competent you will have a instrument to last a life time." [/b]I posted this on the first page of this thread, but it seems relevant here again. Kenny, I think that MOST new pianos, if not all of them, will have issues that have to be worked through. My M&H had sticky dampers and a buzz here and there during its first year. Does that make it a piece of &$*#& or bad purchase? I don't think so.
What we really need are data on whether Chinese pianos have more of these little issues than higher tier pianos. I sure don't know the answer to that question; maybe some of the techs do.
I bought a 52" George Steck one year ago, its my third piano, I think its about the best value for the $. I recently went back to the dealer and played a 1978 52" from a well known maker, I was really glad I didn't pay 2000.00 more for that piano. Mine has a much more consistant touch with a deeper richer tone. I did however play the new model of that piano and was very impressed. Its better then mine, but not that much better.
Originally posted by Kenny Blankenship:
Man, look at all the "little things" that need work on these suckers, someone is making some $$$. I guess you get what you pay for!
Or, you could buy a Steinway, and have many of the same issues (probably with the exception of the tight centers) to deal with.
But one could sleep much better knowing they paid premium money for a premium product.
I agree, all pianos, new, used, rebuilt, whatever, will always have small things that need attention. It's a production world and THINGS just aren't perfect. Even high end commodities that are hand built will have problems...The real truth will be in 50 years...will they just throw them away or rebuild them. The test of time!!! jm$0.2
I own a Nordiska 6'1" baby grand. Had it about 16 months now and am very happy with it. Upon delivery I sensed the high-end was a little piercing and so, had my technician make some minor adjustments. Also, I did have one key which tended to stay down upon release but that too was easily remedied by the tech. I keep a dehumidifier in the room and humidity averages 40%. No problems with the tuning. The two times I've had it tuned the technician commented on how little adjusting was required.
I brought back this thread to update my own piano's history. I also changed the title. It seemed the old thread title was seen by some as an attempt to unite owners of Chinese pianos. That was not the intent. I hope the new title is neutral enough to not give that impression.
I also thought bringing back the thread might encourage others to participate. I'm sure there have been member purchases in the intervening months. (Vince in Vegas comes to mind.) So if you have bought a Chinese piano recently, or had yours serviced for any issues, please report. Ground rules are in the opening post.
Nordiska 126 vertical, six months old, fairly heavy use.
Services just performed: tuning, voicing, replacement of the felt strips on the rail engaged by the practice pedal.
Previous service: two store-provided tunings.
I had been itching to get my hammers voiced for months, but wanted to wait until the piano settled in after it was delivered. I had gotten some referrals here on the tech forum, but when I contacted the referrals they were either too busy (long wait) or declined to work on a low-end piano. So I went with a tech I had used often in the past for my old piano, John Pasterczyk. I’d like to give a plug for John. His prices are moderate, he never hurries, and he’s very attentive to his customer’s requests.
www.southbaypiano.com in the L.A. area.
Tuning: minimal work was required.
Regulation: none required. I had no complaints. John’s playing up and down the keyboard confirmed that everything was okay.
Voicing: John needled the shoulders a bit. He showed me tiny tracks that were already present on the shoulders of the hammers. I really couldn’t see them well (eyes not the best). He said that Abel (among other hammer makers) is using needling machines to pre-needle their hammers.
First he needled a few hammers and asked me to try those keys.. I could hear the difference and liked the change, so he needled the rest of the hammers accordingly. After I checked that, he offered to do more, but I want to go slowly with the hammers.
Practice rail felt strips: They were easily replaced. They had curled at the corners, causing the hammers adjacent to the scale breaks to strike without damping when the practice pedal was engaged.
Comments: John felt the pinblock was a good one to work with,: secure, but not overly tight. The voicing removed most of the brassy tone that the piano had always had. I’m sure more can be done to fine-tune the sound, but I don’t want to rush.
I’ve always felt my piano is best described as ‘serviceable’. Even among Chinese pianos, its price is low. A few days ago, I read a post by Rich Galassini where he stated that most Chinese pianos to this point have been ‘passable’, while some have been surprising. I think 'passable' is an even better description of my piano than ‘serviceable’. What I hope to do through careful attention is to bring it up a notch or two from being passable. Time will tell. So far, so good.
I’ve included a sound file here. Should you choose to listen, bear in mind:
1.) It’s Mp3 on a Microtrack with a single T-mike over the open cabinet top.
(raw sound)
2.) This is a very inexpensive piano
3.) The playing is a bit sloppy.
4.) The composer is of ill repute.
5.) The ringing phone you hear is not your own.
It’s on the recording.
sound file:
http://www.box.net/shared/yu40zukafh
I sometimes have to play a Pearl River upright for my weekly lesson and don't care much for it.
There are a number of studios available at the music store, but with really only two choices. Some studios have a Yamaha, some have a Pearl River.
If there are several empty studios, I ask my teacher as a favor if we can go into one of the studios with Yamahas. (Her normal studio has a Pearl River.)
I know my input is not very profound, but I have enjoyed reading the thread. Thanks to all.
Originally posted by turandot:
I’ve included a sound file here. Should you choose to listen, bear in mind:
1.) It’s Mp3 on a Microtrack with a single T-mike over the open cabinet top.
(raw sound)
2.) This is a very inexpensive piano
3.) The playing is a bit sloppy.
4.) The composer is of ill repute.
5.) The ringing phone you hear is not your own.
It’s on the recording.
sound file: http://www.box.net/shared/yu40zukafh turandot, that is beautiful, and your piano sounds quite nice to my ears. While I agree that the recording quality isn't the best, the tone that comes through is quite nice. I have played a few Nordiskas and was impressed with their grands, but not with the verticals. I think yours sounds much better than the ones I have played, so obviously John's work has paid off for you. I am still enjoying listening to your recording. Thanks.
Jees, Turn,
If you had spent a bit more money and bought a higher grade piano, you wouldnt have had to spend all those bucks on after sale "preppage."
Nice MP though, good "playage"
I occasionally come across some of those expensive pianos a year or so after they have been sold, and they do not play any better than the cheap ones, not without spending all that money on preparation all over again.
from Kenny Blankenship
Jees, Turn,
If you had spent a bit more money and bought a higher grade piano, you wouldnt have had to spend all those bucks on after sale "preppage."
K-Blank,
Not a lot of dollars really. The dealer had sent me the replacement felts. I could have hung them myself, no big deal; but my tech didn't charge me for it. I also could have gotten 'free' voicing with the second tuning provided by the store. I didn't want the person they provided to be messing with my hammers though, and I didn't want to voice at all until six months of use.
As to spending a couple of thousand more, you may be right. But it's too early to know. I actually like the Dongbei scale design and the action. Action is #1 for me.
If in the future, it seems that spending more would have been better, I'll own up to it. No problem.
Turandot,
I thoroughly enjoyed listening to you play. Sounds like you put significant time/effort and emotion into it.
Originally posted by fathertopianist:
Turandot,
I thoroughly enjoyed listening to you play. Sounds like you put significant time/effort and emotion into it. Likewise T, That was a good listen. The piano sounded quite nice.
Mike
Turandot thanks for keeping this thread alive it certainly has my interest. I love your playing and the piano sounds fine to me. I bought a 6'2" Suzuki Grand (made in the Dong bei factory) and I took delivery about three weeks ago. The initial tuning is still a week away. Problems noted: two keys have a longer than normal sustain or put another way they continue to ring longer than they should. I assume the damper on the the two notes can be adjusted. Several of the very highest notes sound a touch louder than surounding tones and that's I discovered wrong so far.
T-Dot,
Nice chops! Very impressive! Just so happens to be one of my favorite songs. Have you ever listened to Chicago's Big Band album? They did a "Chicago" version of Night and Day that is pretty cool.
See ya'
Originally posted by Jolly:
What does this thread absolutely scream out?
For me, it's the thirteen owners who responded to the initial thread starter.
Guys, I know more than 13 Nordiska grand owners that were/are members here.
Over the years I've been here, there have probably been hundreds of Chinese pianos bought through member questions and research. Apparently, those folks are no longer here.
So, what practical use is this observation? What I believe, is that a small cadre of dedicated enthuisiasts for ANY one brand, be it W&L, Estonia, M&H, Nordiska, etc...can make that brand appear more popular than it is.
People who join this board do not stay, not for the vast majority. It's an information hub, the piano purchase is made, and folks don't wander back.
I don't think the board moves a ton of pianos...but if you can somehow make your piano the hot piano on the board, you can affect sales, especially in the smaller, boutique-type pianos.
Quite right. I, myself, don't come around so much anymore.
I own a Nordiska 165. No problems whatsoever. Sounds great, for the price.
Hi Terry,
As I finished up your post I wondered what is meant by "Sounds great, for the price."
"For the price" is a qualifier that diminishes the "sounds great". So are you saying that a more expensive piano sounds somewhat better, much better, very much better, than your piano that cost considerably less?
By no means am I casting aspersions on Nordiska or any other Chinese made brand. I guess I am asking; If you could have afforded a more expensive piano (or could afford but did not care to spend more) would you be happier with the sound, action, tone of a higher tier piano?
Is the money more important to you than the piano and therefore you made a compromise?
Or, are you extremely happy with your piano in all regards and gratefull for the price? Maybe you meant to say; I love my piano. It sounds great! I love the action. I've had no problems whatsoever, and it cost half as much as a Schimmel!
But somehow that is not the impression that I get.
???
Mike
"For the price" is a qualifier that diminishes the "sounds great". So are you saying that a more expensive piano sounds somewhat better, much better, very much better, than your piano that cost considerably less?
For six grand, I think it sounds great. When I was shopping (speaking only of new instruments here), I preferred nothing at any price point up to the J. Prambergers (this was a few years back). To phrase it in reflection to your question, I was finding that one paid much more money for somewhat better sound.
Originally posted by Jolly:
What does this thread absolutely scream out?
For me, it's the thirteen owners who responded to the initial thread starter.
Guys, I know more than 13 Nordiska grand owners that were/are members here.
Over the years I've been here, there have probably been hundreds of Chinese pianos bought through member questions and research. Apparently, those folks are no longer here.
So, what practical use is this observation? What I believe, is that a small cadre of dedicated enthuisiasts for ANY one brand, be it W&L, Estonia, M&H, Nordiska, etc...can make that brand appear more popular than it is.
People who join this board do not stay, not for the vast majority. It's an information hub, the piano purchase is made, and folks don't wander back.
I don't think the board moves a ton of pianos...but if you can somehow make your piano the hot piano on the board, you can affect sales, especially in the smaller, boutique-type pianos.
Absolutely! This is marketing in the internet age.
Reading the cheerful repartee (
) that is now taking place on the Perzina thread reminded me that there have been no entries on this thread since late July. I know that many members have stated that they purchased a piano made in China since July.
The best way to get beyond the polarization of opinion about pianos from China is to deal in facts. If anyone who
has bought a piano from China since July (be it an Ellenberg, an Essex through Steinway, a Yamaha T-118 or Cable Nelson, A China-made Kawai, a Brodmann, Heintzman, Hailun, Wendl & Lung, Steigerman, Weinbach, Nordiska, Perzina, Sejung stencil, DongBei stencil, et. al.) would care to post here about their post-delivery experience, it would probably be useful.
Also, if anyone who has already posted here on their Chinese piano would like to report some experience with maintenance (positive or negative), it would be useful as well.
If anyone would like to take a shot at Chinese pianos for political, environmental, cultural or business reasons, please take it elsewhere.
Would "sounds great for the price" possibly refer to pianos that sound good (in the opinion of the person saying it) relative to other pianos in the same or similar price range?
88Key_PianoPlayer,
Do you have a piano made in China? If so, do you wish to post something about it?
This thread is for owners of pianos from China to report on their ownership experience, whether good or bad.
I just purchased a new piano. My first piano was a Chinese Dongbei Story & Clark 5' baby grand. I had that for 3 years without an significant issue. The occasional sticky key or damper. easy fixes when it was tuned every six months. In addition it could have been my 80 year old house which could fluctuate in humidity quite a bit. No central air and radiator heat. I added a damp chaser and that helped stabilize problems with keys and dampers.
After 3 years of playing and knowing that I will I continue to play I began to long for a richer sound than the 5' story and clark could offer. Had my new Brodmann BG 187 delivered last week, I could not be happier. It is a very nice piano and also chinese manufacture. I had the damp chaser moved from the Story & Clark moved to the Brodmann so hopefully I will have fewer issues due to the environment.
Originally posted by Jolly:
....
So, what practical use is this observation? What I believe, is that a small cadre of dedicated enthuisiasts for ANY one brand, be it W&L, Estonia, M&H, Nordiska, etc...can make that brand appear more popular than it is.
....
I don't think the board moves a ton of pianos...but if you can somehow make your piano the hot piano on the board, you can affect sales, especially in the smaller, boutique-type pianos.
Isn't that what make Larry Fine almost put Estonia on group 1?
I have a 6'1" Ellenburg JE-185 in my home and love it. I also play on a Yamaha C3 at church and like it as well. I believe some pianos coming out of China today have a lot to offer in value, touch, and tone. The Hailun pianos I have played sound, and feel better than pianos from Korea with European names.
Terry.... is that the "Ellenburg" piano that is recommended in your Piano Buyer's Guide book?
I am now selling a competing piano buyers guide that recommends Pearl River and Ritmuller as being far superior in every fashion to the Ellenberg. The author wishes to remain confidential.
I haven't bought a Chinese piano but I did recently encounter a new Suzuki at a local dealer. There has been interest here in the past in Suzuki for various reasons but not a lot of hands on experience so I thought I throw my impressions into this thread.
To sum things up, I'd have to say the Suzuki I played was really pretty good. This was a bit of a surprise for me because I have encountered a couple of Suzukis in the past that were pretty well unplayable on the dealer floor. This one was well prepped. The fellow showing it to me emphasized the German parts and the Renner type action.
Here's a quote from the dealer's web site:
"Wet sand cast iron plates, Delignit pin-block, German Roslau strings, Renner type dynamic action, fine German low-tension scale-design, etc. etc..."
I asked him what "Renner type" meant and he said that it involved Renner licensing their designs, processes and the use of the Renner name in the production of what is intended to be identical to the real thing at lower cost (just reporting the story here folks).
Anyway, the proof is in the pudding and it's really a pretty good piano for it's size and price. Looked to be about 5'8" inches but I don't remember for sure. Smooth responsive action; no noise coming from under the hood other than music. Full sostenuto, all working properly. Una corda shift was smooth and quiet with no clunking or lost motion. Sounded not too bad for a piano that size. Not a lot of bass but I wouldn't expect it from any 5'8" piano. The treble was sweet and clean. Very musical and lots of power. Not much more to say.
C$15,900 was the tagged price. I don't pay much attention to pianos this size so I don't know if that's a good price or not. That's just what it was.
Originally posted by Jazzmandave:
Terry.... is that the "Ellenburg" piano that is recommended in your Piano Buyer's Guide book?
I am now selling a competing piano buyers guide that recommends Pearl River and Ritmuller as being far superior in every fashion to the Ellenberg. The author wishes to remain confidential.
Hey Dave,
Biz must be slow in your area for you to try and swerve and hit a competitor. Don't know if that is image that best serves your company or not, but I guess desperate times call for desperate measures. Maybe you and Craig at SMC can start new accounts here and chime back and forth under aliases? Oh wait a minute, you've already tried that.
Yes the Ellenburg, along with other brands (including the one you rep for) was recommended as a good value in a buyers guide that we sell. I don't see how, or even why this is offensive to you, but I've given up on trying to find logic among some our industry's professionals. Just so you know the Ellenburg has also great reviews among several RPT's, and players as well. I am sure your brand has RPT's that give it a thumbs up as well. To be honest sound, touch, and feel is very subjective as you know. What one person will think is just great, another person will not prefer. What is not subjective is price. Everyone understands that $X,500.00 is less than say $Y,500.00.
Maybe your dealer(s) could sell more if you let them advertise the name of the piano when they sell on eBay?
P S...
Another 'sell your brand post'?
Complete with underpricing a competitor?
Just because your own buyer's guide recommends it, doesn't make it a good consumer's purchase. I surely hope that consumers do some SEARCHING before believing.
Shame on you, once again.
LL
Mr Wilson,
I was trying to find the buyers guide you referenced on Amazon and other websites to read reviews on it. I can't find it anywhere but your website? Can you provide an ISBN number?
Originally posted by Piano Superstore:
I have a 6'1" Ellenburg JE-185 in my home and love it. I also play on a Yamaha C3 at church and like it as well. I believe some pianos coming out of China today have a lot to offer in value, touch, and tone. The Hailun pianos I have played sound, and feel better than pianos from Korea with European names. I remember you from years back ...
So, I say to all "Consider The Source" when listening to this guy ..
Originally posted by Piano Superstore:
I have a 6'1" Ellenburg JE-185 in my home and love it. I also play on a Yamaha C3 at church and like it as well. I believe some pianos coming out of China today have a lot to offer in value, touch, and tone. The Hailun pianos I have played sound, and feel better than pianos from Korea with European names. At least his church had the good sense to buy a Yamaha C3.
Each time the conversion about 'Chinese pianos' comes up, it reminds me on an equivalent discussion about "European pianos", "American pianos".....
The 'real' discussion, as we would perhaps all agree by now, would be to more intelligently differentiate not only between the different 'brands' on a wholesale basis - but also their particular models, both uprights and grands, including the experience people, especially professionals, have had with them.
In case of those [Chinese] brands we carry ourselves, we may strongly prefer one particular model over another - ordering our stock *accordingly* this, despite the fact that we have made the choice for any one of the particular "brands" for ourselves already before.
With over 200 Chinese manufacturers of one sort or another getting presently onto the market, very few people unfortunately have ever had the chance to see or play just those *few* pianos that have been on the market for at least the last few years.
Add to this the present time right at this moment, when the biggest advances and changes occurring between the different 'Chinese' brands and their respective models appear to be taking place.
Rest assured, the race is on in earnest....
Norbert
Each time the conversion about 'Chinese pianos' comes up, it reminds me on an equivalent discussion about "European pianos", "American pianos".....
Each time the conversation comes up, the same one-trick pony members come out of the woodwork as well, especially when Terry uses the fact that he has an Ellenberg at home to give his owner impressions. (Thanks Terry
)
It almost seems that there are members whose chief purpose being here is to take potshots at Terry. The phrase 'Get a life' comes to mind.
In any case, thanks to Joseph L and Starting Over for adding to the knowledge base here. It was interesting to read that Suzuki is still competing on the open market in Canada, instead of the 'buy now and see later' marketing effort in the US.
Is there no one else who has bought a Chinese piano in the last few months who has anything to share, positive or negative? Floyd, Vince,..??.. are you still out there?
Originally posted by Jazzbo:
Originally posted by Piano Superstore:
[b] I have a 6'1" Ellenburg JE-185 in my home and love it. I also play on a Yamaha C3 at church and like it as well. I believe some pianos coming out of China today have a lot to offer in value, touch, and tone. The Hailun pianos I have played sound, and feel better than pianos from Korea with European names.
At least his church had the good sense to buy a Yamaha C3. [/b]WOW!!! You guys must be really slow, and in the Christmas season as well
Just to respond I would say the following. Yes our church did have the good sense to purchase a Yamaha. Especially in the face of a lot disparaging remarks about its quality, origin, and name. Of course this was 20-25 years ago.
I guess luckily our church ignored what other dealers told them, and bought on value and not on rhetoric. Too bad the internet wasn't available then so those same "type" of industry folk couldn't post threads about the decision of buying Asian then? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by barnaut:
Originally posted by Piano Superstore:
[b] I have a 6'1" Ellenburg JE-185 in my home and love it. I also play on a Yamaha C3 at church and like it as well. I believe some pianos coming out of China today have a lot to offer in value, touch, and tone. The Hailun pianos I have played sound, and feel better than pianos from Korea with European names.
I remember you from years back ...
So, I say to all "Consider The Source" when listening to this guy .. [/b]Hey Barry and welcome to the forum! Yes I am sure you remember me, as I remember you.
So that our readers can "consider the source" we might want to explain our acquaintance, don’t you think? Barry was my Kawai rep when I worked for a dealer in SC. At the time we carried ALL of the SMC lines, some of the Young Chang, we just left Yamaha, and picked up Kawai. The company I worked for decided to get out of the Yamaha business before I came on board. I was told this was because of a lot of heavy handed politics. To be brief the owners were tired of being told you have to buy this amount to keep your franchise, and then being handcuffed on at what price, and where you could sell to.
I had been moderately successful in my former career and was hired to come on board to sell existing inventory, and develop the new lines. Being green to the piano biz politics, and being used to a completely different industry, I was like a bull in a china shop. I just assumed you could sell your wares to whomever and whatever price you wanted to. Little did I know at the time, that this was huge no no in the piano retail biz.
Needless to say it was my friend Barry here who said that “he would not tolerate ankle bitersâ€. Apparently some of his dealers felt upset that people were actually “shopping†for the best price, and found I offered more value. Long of the short we were canceled as dealers. Fast forward to 2001 and Barry and I speak again. I am now running my own business, and have discovered a method to sell, and distribute pianos online. Well naturally Barry is agitated again because he has a dealer crying that a customer came in “shopping†and bought a piano from us. I often wonder if the price was what bothered Barry and his dealer, or the fact the customer bought the piano, was happy, and got a great price despite all of their slander?
Nevertheless Barry and I spoke and agreed to disagree. I believe he ended the conversation with an open invitation to his home for drinks? I hope that is still the case?
So here we are today November 5, 2007 and I simple post a comment about my experience as an owner of a Chinese piano, and boom! I count 3 reps and 2 dealers pop out of the wood work to take a swipe. I even was careful to include another brand, just to bring some balance, but you guys can’t help yourselves can you.
Turandot,
If you ever had any doubts that 99% of the dust ups here on the forum were not motivated by industry politics, I hope they are now removed.
There are many things subjective that we can talk about here. For instance tone, touch, feel, nuances, design, pedigree, and quality of any given piano. The one thing that is absolute is price. Barry represents a school of thought that has kept price, and choices limited to the general consumer. Therefore the argument is never based on the motivation of disdain, but rather straw man debates.
Ahh but you got to love’m…. Don’t ever change guys!!!
Terry,
I think most major manufacturers have clauses in their franchise agreements that frown on internet pricing and sales.
What major manufacturers do you represent that smile on your tactics.
Anyway, this has become off topic ...
Bear
Originally posted by barnaut:
Terry,
I think most major manufacturers have clauses in their franchise agreements that frown on internet pricing and sales.
I agree. Some would question the ethics by "some" of these agreements, but the fact remains they are there. Some might even argue that it is a way to try and "price fix", but I would imagine the law will/has settled that.
What major manufacturers do you represent that smile on your tactics.
I don't work for any manufacturer. I am rewarded by what the buying public decides. I have seen a lot of good people that ran brick mortar stores go out of business in the last few years. I am confident that the manufacturers they represented were very happy with them though. I guess you could say they were all happy to the end?
Anyway, this has become off topic ...
Bear
I agree, but that has never stopped my detractors before. Why should it now? :rolleyes:
Manufacturers and Reps and competitors dont care about Terry and his internet house brand pianos.
He just wants people to believe that we do. It's all part of his "story". All planned.
Good Luck to you, Terry, and your "River" pianos.
Caveat Emptor.
Originally posted by Jazzmandave:
Manufacturers and Reps and competitors dont care about Terry and his internet house brand pianos.
Right...... And that's why you highjack every thread that I post on... :rolleyes: Seems to me like you and others are very anxious to express how much you "don't care" every opportunity you get.
Give me a break! :rolleyes:
Hey Dave,
Why don't you tell the people here why you allow "some" of your dealers to sell on eBay, but you wont let them name the brand?
You have stated in the past that our price, and selling anywhere in the US is not a problem with you. If so, then why regulate a dealer from advertising your brand with a price beside it on the internet brand new?
"200 Chinese manufacturers" creating who knows how many brand name pianos... some (many?) stenciled for particular stores and/or (internet) dealers..
No wonder there is a stigma toward Chinese pianos.
The waters are very muddied, choose your Chinese piano carefully.
Mike
(sorry turandot, I do not own a Chinese piano)
from MDSDurango
(sorry turandot, I do not own a Chinese piano)
Don't worry about it Mike. I know how you must feel not owning a Chinese piano, but there are worse things in life.... like owning a Yamaha
This thread is now officially brain-dead. Someone has given it the one-star middle-finger salute and frankly I don't blame whoever it is. There was a little hope of resuscitation until the taggers arrived.
Time now to pull the plug.
William
Actual owner of Suzuki 6'2" grand. I love it. It needed to be regulated and tuned (as the website stated) and has sounded great every since. I thought the action was too heavy and I asked my technician. He reported that it wasn't but if I wanted it lightened he would work on it. J. Pels mentioned in another thread that all pianos are designed to have about 55 grams of required key pressure (I think that is the term to use) and anyone can easily measure this by stacking nickles (they weigh approximatelly 5 grams each) on a key with the damper raised. When the key begins to move note the amount of nickles and you have your answer. My keys moved at 60 grams. I take lessons at a music store where there are a number of grands made by Young and Chang, Petrof, Yamaha, Kawai in various lengths and the ones six foot long all feel about the same as my pinao. I'm probably not skilled enough to note a huge difference from any of these brands from the one I have at home. There are, of course, differences in sound but not a difference I would call superior...just different. Again I'm a neophyte when it comes to judging differences in grand pianos (I played for years on a Wurlitzer spinet) and maybe the difference in these "better" pianos are lost on me. Just my two cents.
Aw heck! I was just starting to like this thread and now it's brain dead.
Terry,
First of all, I have only posted a response to a few of your "posts". You are as usual misrepresenting the facts.
What dealers are selling Pearl River on ebay????
Name them.
Originally posted by Jazzmandave:
Terry,
First of all, I have only posted a response to a few of your "posts". You are as usual misrepresenting the facts.
14 out of the last 20 post you have made are on threads involving me, my company, or products I sell either directly or indirectly. I don't know what your definition of few is? Of course I guess I really don't know what your definition of is, is?
What dealers are selling Pearl River on ebay???? Name them.
Please feel free to email me and I would be more than happy to send you the links so that you can validate my statement. I am not in the habbit of advertising for my "friends".
If you want to name them on a public forum afterwards then it will be your choice, and not mine.
I can even provide you proof where new pianos that you sold to a dealer was then shipped across country into another reps, and dealer territory. I of course don't have single problem with this, but I wonder who in your "family" will?
Originally posted by turandot:
This thread is now officially brain-dead. Someone has given it the one-star middle-finger salute and frankly I don't blame whoever it is. There was a little hope of resuscitation until the taggers arrived.
Time now to pull the plug.
William Hey William,
I apologize that my post to owning and playing a Chinese piano attracted the mob squad again. I think it's a great topic, and people need to see and hear from people who own such pianos regardless of brand. There are many people in our industry who still continue to use the term "Chinese Piano" as some sort of derogatory slur about any given piano they don't sell, or own. The fact is there are some really nice, quality made pianos being built in China now. For people who can't spend, or wont spend but so much this is a viable option. I say the more people who can afford a piano, buy a piano, or own a piano the better off we all are. Not just as an industry, but as a society.
Great topic. Sorry some of my fan base followed me over. The floor is now yours....
Terry,
As always, you have used the forum to promote your style of piano retailing. However, you are right on several issues. There are dealers out there that are buying PR pianos and shipping them across the country to be sold at non-PR dealers events and in their stores. How could this be happening? Wouldn't PR reps have control of this situation?
If they were the only mfg that this was happening to it would be really bad on them. It is unfortunately happening with practically every line out there.
My wife and walked into a store in a medium size market to just look around and see what was happening in that part of the country. We asked if they carried _______ brand and the reply was "What model? I can get you one shipped in" So, it is happening everywhere.
As a veteran retailer who has chosen to "retire" from retail, I can post without any agenda. But, as an active seller of pianos, shouldn't you be a little more discreet? Your by-line is offensive as an ad for your company which is not what this business forum is all about.
Respectfully,
Originally posted by WILLIAM C. HAUGHT:
Terry,
As always, you have used the forum to promote your style of piano retailing. However, you are right on several issues. There are dealers out there that are buying PR pianos and shipping them across the country to be sold at non-PR dealers events and in their stores. How could this be happening? Wouldn't PR reps have control of this situation?
If they were the only mfg that this was happening to it would be really bad on them. It is unfortunately happening with practically every line out there.
My wife and walked into a store in a medium size market to just look around and see what was happening in that part of the country. We asked if they carried _______ brand and the reply was "What model? I can get you one shipped in" So, it is happening everywhere.
As a veteran retailer who has chosen to "retire" from retail, I can post without any agenda. But, as an active seller of pianos, shouldn't you be a little more discreet? Your by-line is offensive as an ad for your company which is not what this business forum is all about.
Respectfully,
Mr. Haught,
Thank you for your thoughts, and comments. It's always nice to hear your thoughts and ideas. Let me answer your questions as best I can.
You asked:
But, as an active seller of pianos, shouldn't you be a little more discreet?
I guess the short answer to your question is yes, and no.
Yes it would be nice, but discretion here on the forum, and on the web in general is characterized as being non-transparent, or hiding something. Read some of my earlier post here years ago, where I tried to use discretion. The drum beat from dealers, and anonymous posters here on the forum was SCREAMING for more details. This was also used as a diversionary tactic, and a means to try and discredit me and my company. The real motivation by these same people have become blazingly obvious as recently as this thread.
No in the fact that we are an internet based wholesale piano company. So discretion, and web presence do not really coexist very well. If I were simple a B&M business alone that sold in a designated territory, then it would be our method of operation. However, this is not the case. Therefore I really don't mind speaking my mind, under my own name, in a public forum. If you will notice, with the exception of a few, you being one of them, the strongest and most pointed oppinions and comments generally do not come from people posting under their own name. You and I, and some others however are the exception and not the norm. I believe if people are going to have the courage to make a public statement, they should have the courage to own it.
William Haught Said:
Your by-line is offensive as an ad for your company which is not what this business forum is all about.
I couldn't agree with you more on both points. It is offensive, and it is not what this forum is about according to the guidelines. The problem however with the by line you are referring to "prices too good to be true" is that it's not my words. This was the tittle of a thread that a long time member here posted about me and my company as a hit job. Some of the same people you see chiming in here on this thread were on that thread as well. The member who started the threads point was the price I had on my website on a certain model of piano in which he carried as well was way too low to be legitimate. In this thread he posted the name of the piano, and the price we were offering. Which was fine by me, anytime a competitor can advertise for you it can't be bad. Just so you know the price was basically normal dealer cost. The point being however my by line was authored by a competitor. It is offensive, and it shouldn't have been used, but it's not my words. It is interesting to see how some prices posted here can be left unedited, and other can not however. I have no doubt that our moderator is only responding to what has been reported. My disagreement is not so much with them, but the members who find pricing posted okay in one instance, but not okay in another. It seems if the content fits the agenda its okay, but if not then it must be flagged.
Mr. Haught,
Thanks again for your thoughts and your post. I have always enjoyed your post.
Sincerely,
I have been looking all over the place for a piano 6 to 7'. I ran into Langlois & Sons Piano in Bremerton, Washington (hoping to play their advertised Kawais) and instead ended up playing the custom hand made Chinese 6'10" Langlois & Sons. What he has done evidently is to take an Italian sound board and parts from other parts of the world that he considers exceptional and have this assembled by hand in China for a price that is unbelievable. I was very impressed and although I did not buy one, because I have to play every piano in every store and on Craigslist in two states before I can make up my mind (and put thousands of miles on my car--taking up countless hours of time instead of spending this amount of time practicing), in that particular store (or warehouse), I just kept coming back to that piano. Not the exact sound I was looking for, but a very nice deep bass, perfect weight and even action (one you don't even notice). I would put that piano among the better pianos I have played (now deciding between Schimmel (182,189 or 213), Grotrian and M&H BB). In the meantime, still playing my old 1947 Baldwin M!
I did not buy one, because I have to play every piano in every store and on Craigslist in two states before I can make up my mind (and put thousands of miles on my car--taking up countless hours of time instead of spending this amount of time practicing), in that particular store (or warehouse),
Oh, can I ever identify with that feeling.
I've wondered about the Langlois. I 've seen their listings on eBay and visited their website. The price of the Langlois seemed high for a straightforward Chinese piano. Now I can see why they feel it commands a higher price.
Did you happen to play their rebuilt Ellington?
Yes I played the Ellington. American sound, which I like. But it is an older piano (solid though) and behaves like an older piano. And after the Ellington, I did go back to his Langlois & Sons. By the way I am still driving around looking at pianos. . .
1947 Baldwin M and looking
C. Bertozzi, please do post any further impressions of the Langlois pianos.
I'm interested in your impressions because, based on your post above, they might be a category buster. I've been posting that there is what I call a "second generation" of Chinese-made pianos and that these are ones which are directed at the export market and benefit from various degrees of direction and control by non-Chinese. Makes cited include Brodmann, Heintzman, and Steigerman Premium.
When posting, I have in mind that the direction and control is exercised at the manufacturing site. Merely shipping components to China does not qualify. The reason for this is that I have more confidence when quality control is exercised on site. If design also comes from outside, that's a plus, because I value experience. (Please don't read anything into this re the ability of the Chinese to do quality manufacturing. Frankly I'm astonished when I read posts which question their ability.)
When I first saw the Langlois on eBay and went to their site, it seemed to me that their grands were slightly overpriced. For example, the 6'10" is c.$16k. The Heintzman 6'8" has a List Price in Larry Fine's, The Annual Supplement To The Piano Book of $17.7k. Deducting a 25% discount would produce a street price of $13.3k. Heintzmans fit solidly into my "second generation" category, because they're produced in a company-owned factory in which there is majority ownership by non-Chinese and because the company claims to have essentially kept the designs while moving production to China.
Langlois does appear to use many quality components - the hammers, 'boards, and rims, for example. But I don't see any indication that there's a Langlois rep on site and I doubt that they're large enough to afford that. The "hand made" claim is, IMO, essentially marketing poop. All piano manufacturing involves some hand labor.
That said, I'm impressed that your impressions are those of someone who's actively auditioning pianos and whose sampling universe includes premium instruments. And I am wondering if the tunings and regulations mentioned on their site can, if done properly, result in an instrument that is the equal of my "second generation" category.
I'll probably still have a little reservation re quality control. For example, hardwood pinblocks are a good thing, but that doesn't mean that the 'blocks are properly fitted.
I like to post info which helps people, particularly people who are new to piano. If you continue to be favorably impressed by the Langlois, I'll include them as a possible exception to the "second generation" category.
Looking forward to further posts re Langlois.
Hi Fog--I think Mr. Langlois said he had spent a lot of time in China looking for a place to do what he wanted and finally found the perfect place in Chingdow. I can't remember if he said he presided over the manufacturing process, but I think he put together the design and supervised. He comes from a long line of technicians and is rather particular (which is why he gathered together all those parts the way he did). I did say to him, well, so you have accomplished a vision. And he agreed, saying (passionately) that he wanted to design a piano that has all the best parts, etc. etc. So, his stated intent was to bring all these various parts together and design his own piano that he thinks is an exceptional piano.
I came there the first day to see the KG-6E Kawai, which was not there at the time. That's when I played the Langlois and found it quite interesting. I played the Ellington and a few notes on the smaller Langlois, which did not interest me after I played the 6'10". I came back the next day because Mr. Langlois was there and said he would prep the 6'10". It was much improved although the treble was a little bit metallic for my ears, so he fixed that. I had brought a 6" stack of music, but my thoughts (and playing) were interrupted by his talking (and telling me probably all the things you wanted to know--which I did not want to hear because I wanted to play the piano)! Egad. However, going through my mind (in between the chatter) was: great bass, treble-not bad, singing possibilities, nice action, keys weighted perfectly, somewhat different unique sound. I would say this piano has its own voice and a technician MIGHT be able to even do more with it. One thing I did notice was that the piano frame is a thicker than other frames--a little heavy for my taste (even though it is probably stronger and would hold the soundboard in shape better?). He has some kind of special African wood on the inside of the frame. Also, the white Italian soundboard is perfectly grained and very light and even (he is very proud of that). I personally prefer a darker, more aged, classical or antique look. He will give a 10% teacher's discount (I am not a teacher).
Bremerton is out of most people's way, being on a peninsula. I would be interested to hear someone else's impressions and I hope all my chatter (!) adds some useful information.
--cb--
Bertozzi,
I wouldn't make the classification of first-generation and second-generation with Chinese pianos. IMO the fitting of upscale European components into what are essentially Chinese instruments is a reaction to the cold reception Chinese pianos have generally received in the West. In some cases the resulting pianos have these 'name' components as stock items, not options that raise the price. That would be the case with Brodmann for example. In other cases you can have stock Chinese components replaced by things such as factory Renner actions at additional cost. That would be the case with Perzina and Steigerman.
Added to those alternatives are items such as Mr. Langlois' Chinese piano and the customized Dongbei grands offered by Fandrich and Sons a few years ago.
If I were you, I wouldn't consider those customized alternatives unless I had ruled out stock Chinese pianos at the price point. Those would include the larger Hailun, the larger Brodmann, and the often overlooked Nordiska O, which at a full 7' is still my favorite of those available even though it is not the latest and greatest so to speak. In fact, in your price territory, I would want to audition a Korean Knabe 64 as well. On paper it would be more expensive, but with discounts being the way they are, it may not.
There's something about your description
great bass, treble-not bad, singing possibilities, nice action, keys weighted perfectly, somewhat different unique sound. I would say this piano has its own voice and a technician MIGHT be able to even do more with it
that indicates you were less than blown away by the Langlois. I think at your price point you may very well find a piano that does blow you away if you continue traversing you two-state area on a full-time basis.
Have you checked out a Brodmann 187, a Hailun 178, or a Nordiska O ?
I was thinking of flying to Boston to check out all the pianos there and have one sent back here to the NW. Or Florida. Or for that matter, maybe I should just go ahead and go to Germany. But I do like American pianos! (Maybe they sell them over there!!!)
C.B., thanks for the update.
Langlois certainly has specified some fine components and it's great that he's been able to realize his vision.
Re the frame, it sounds as if you mean "rim." The beech and birch laminations, which are used on premium European pianos, are a good thing because they're relatively hard and dense. (The maple used on premier American pianos is even harder and denser.) This will prevent vibrations from the soundboard being absorbed into the case as heat, and that should help both clarity and projection. In general, rims are thicker on larger pianos, but I don't know any guidelines.
Re the unique tone - and assuming that you can recall, with him running his mouth - the bass, is it rich, just powerful? The Ok treble, not strong enough, doesn't sustain long enough, the timbre just wasn't right?
Does any aspect of the tone remind you of other pianos that you've auditioned? For example, compared to the American sound that you like, how similar is the Langlois' bass?
To further confuse the issue, I played today: Steingraber, Sauter, Brittman(?), Falcone, Steinway A, Kawai Howard, Baldwin R. (The Steingraber was out of my control. The Brittman and Falcone both were nice pianos, but not the sound that I am looking for. I could fall in love with the Sauter--now that's a piano that sings even with the dampers down????), but this one was a 5') The A needed a lot of work and was toooooo expensive for the amount of work it needed (45K). The Kawai was of historical interest with the proverbial (this time two) dead notes in the bass. The 1978 Baldwin R (purchased and never used) was predictably Baldwin, which is the sound I already have--which I like but it's time for a change (don't you think?)
So, I would call the Langlois bass resonating--it was the best part of the piano for me. I do recall thinking and probably saying (since I have become quite frank about these things lately) that the piano was impressive and a surprise in the lower register. What I found in the treble was not bad--but I suspect it would take many voicing attempts (in their latter stages described below) to see if it could get to where I like it--which I guess is to have more of a clear voice. I also suspect I might frustrate the technician or myself, or we might even end up arguing over either (a) the meaning of the word "clear" or (b) what we were actually hearing, i.e., I say it's buffered, he says it's not; I say it is; he says no it isn't; yes it is, no it isn't, etc. etc.
Good lord, Bertozzi
Do you have a daily quota of piano auditions that you have to fill?
A Steingraeber, a Sauter, and a Breitmann???Breitmann is a seldom-seen Bluthner-adopted Chinese stencil from Artfield. I guess you don't mind mixing and matching
. Tomorrow you should line up a Bosendorfer and a Belarus for a side-by-side duel to the death.
You should probably parachute out of this thread and start a piano search thread. You'll get a broader cross-section of member opinion. This thread had been tainted (salmonella or E-coli or something similar) before you arrived. I think some members won't even check in here now. Your piano search appears to be universal and ubiquitous. I think if you start your own thread a lot of members will enjoy corresponding with you along the way. Piano search threads are a fun read for all.
Originally posted by C. Bertozzi:
[QB] To further confuse the issue, I played today: Steingraber, Sauter, Brittman(?), Falcone, Steinway A, Kawai Howard, Baldwin R. (The Steingraber was out of my control.
Very curious about your Steingraeber comment. Could you elaborate?
Secondo, thanks for updating your impression of the Langlois. You could have its treble voiced up, but in general it's better to start with a piano that already has the tonal palette that you prefer and then have it voiced to perfection.
All the best with your auditioning.
Dear Tur:
My sincere apologies for contaminating the thread. Please bear with me while I quickly answer theJ's question: It was too loud and some notes were louder than others and I simply could not control it. (voiced for a concert hall???)
PS Changed my name to secondo, which is what I play
Hey wait a minute--This thread was brain dead long ago. On that note, I played the 7' Nordiska (it needed a tuning unfortunately) today as you suggested and sitting very near it was a Chinese made/assembled Geneva Int'l collaboration 6' Weinbach. I like that piano (unfortunately, I didn't like the salesperson). And, on the subject of daily quotas, etc., the ubiquitous of my piano search is only exceeded by the list of pieces I play in one sitting!
My sincere apologies for contaminating the thread.....Hey wait a minute--This thread was brain dead long ago. On that note, I played the 7' Nordiska
Secondo,
Here's the suggestion I made to you:
You should probably parachute out of this thread and start a piano search thread. You'll get a broader cross-section of member opinion. This thread had been tainted (salmonella or E-coli or something similar) before you arrived . I think some members won't even check in here now. Your piano search appears to be universal and ubiquitous. I think if you start your own thread a lot of members will enjoy corresponding with you along the way. Piano search threads are a fun read for all.
Universal means that you are looking at pianos from everywhere, not just China or Asia. Ubiquitous means that you are willing to travel far to find them. My suggestion was based on you getting a bigger readership, nothing more.
Now I see that you are trying to make a link between brain-dead and Nordiska, while providing your usual level of sketchy detail about a DongBei Weinbach.
Here's another suggestion. Try to report the same kind of information about each piano you play if possible.....tone, touch, size, age, and price....you know the basics. And please... lay off the Nordiska jokes.
Dear Tur:
You have mistaken my sense of humor completely! I was making fun of myself and being a little mischevious. Please try to read it in that different light. Having scrolled up to previous entries and finding that there was some talk about "brain dead thread," I found an opportunity to do what I usually do--announce which pianos I played that day, and since this thread was about Chinese-made pianos, I confined myself to those (I played others that day as well), thinking that my entry would be a little more legitimate. I do confess that I was being a little mischevious (I have children whom I love to annoy). I can't help it. If you don't believe me, look at my entry (specifically directed to you in the Schimmel v. Steinway discussion--entered earlier today before reading your post above)(And I was talking about Steinway!) Come on, Tur. I was just trying to be funny!
Secondo,
Don't worry about it. Just be yourself. I'm not going to touch that Hamburg post of yours though. People who get involved in Steinway squabbles are dealt with severely. Just look at Piano*Dad. He's been reduced to a shadow of his former self. From what I've heard, he's trying to get into the Witness Protection program.
A long time ago this was going to be a thread for owner and user reports on pianos made in China. But like I said, that was a long time ago.
Originally posted by turandot:
Just look at Piano*Dad. He's been reduced to a shadow of his former self. From what I've heard, he's trying to get into the Witness Protection program.
Okay, I have been wondering where he's been, now I've got to know what happened? Surely this kind gentle forum has been good to it's beloved expert economist? PD and I have disagreed on numerous occasions, but I have always found him to be kind, balanced, and slow to jump to conclusions.
If you wait a little longer, all pianos will be made in China and all the threads will be the same.
Originally posted by Secondo:
If you wait a little longer, all pianos will be made in China and all the threads will be the same.
Have you ever looked at the factory workers building the MH pianos in the video "How They Are Made" that was featured on The Science Channel. What's up with that?
:rolleyes:
Here's a link for those of who have not seen it. It's a great 10min video.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qdFejZgOHDA
Originally posted by Piano Superstore:
Originally posted by Secondo:
[b] If you wait a little longer, all pianos will be made in China and all the threads will be the same.
Have you ever looked at the factory workers building the MH pianos in the video "How They Are Made" that was featured on The Science Channel. What's up with that? :rolleyes:
Here's a link for those of who have not seen it. It's a great 10min video.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qdFejZgOHDA [/b]And your point is, T. W/ ????
Say it like you mean what you are saying and show your true colors once again.
And if it is what I think you mean....
SHAME ON YOU, 'once again'.
Have you been there, T. W?
-------
What viewers will see is a quality piano being built by trained and quality artisans to the high standards that Mason and Hamlin is known for. To be on one of their tours, one comes away in awe of their workmanship.
See the many posts of MH factory tours here:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/22/128.html http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/22/99.html How dare you, T. to suggest anything but?
LL
Okay guys. Cool it. This thread is about Chinese pianos.
Hmm, another "ruh-roh....."
Originally posted by Secondo:
If you wait a little longer, all pianos will be made in China and all the threads will be the same.
How true.
I'm glad to see this thread resurrected. I'm always checking back to see what the latest comments are, and every week I'm looking into a different Chinese make, comparing them all to the 5'8" Knabe that I love.
lilylady Said:
And your point is, T. W/ ????
Say it like you mean what you are saying and show your true colors once again.
And if it is what I think you mean....
SHAME ON YOU, 'once again'.
Have you been there, T. W?
It was a joke LL. May I suggest decaf? :rolleyes:
What is there to be so defensive about? Oh yeah, that's right..... It's that whole drop in tier position due to the out sourcing thing??? Ooops...
Just so you know I don't think they should have fallen in position at all. If anything should have moved in tier positions is quality made pianos from China should have moved up.
Mr. Wilson,
Are these websites a joke too or are you unfamiliar with them, except that one recommends your piano:
www.thepianoguide.com www.thepianoblog.com
from Diinin
I'm glad to see this thread resurrected. I'm always checking back to see what the latest comments are, and every week I'm looking into a different Chinese make, comparing them all to the 5'8" Knabe that I love.
Surprised you can still glean something from this thread Diinin. Ever since owner/builder Terry reported that he liked his house Ellenberg (a stunning development actually
), this thread has taken a Wild West direction. You know Doc Holliday pulls into town and all the local gunslingers get an itch in their trigger finger. The fight begins at the bar, spills over into the dining room, and proceeds up the staircase to the quarters of the 'attending' ladies until one participant crashes through the phony stage-prop balustrade onto a table just below.
I'm glad you like it here, but a word of advice. Don't take the table under the balustrade!
Well the the piano guide site is a landing page we use to sell a buyers guide that recommends several different makes and models. Some are brands we carry, and some are not.
The Piano Blog site is a site one of our companies designed and built for a client in TX. This has been discussed, discovered, and decided several threads ago. In regards to the piano guide site we've had numerous people tell us that the ad pretty much illustrates how they felt shopping for a piano. The question I have is why is it offensive to you?
Do you wear the same type of sports jacket?
Have you been taught to sell pianos by defaming other dealers, and other brands? Do you shuck and jive when people ask you straight out for a price? Do you critisize your competitors brand that is made in the same factory of brands you promote? Do you use the term Chinese piano as some type of slur toward other pianos? Do you work for, or are a dealer for Samick?
If you answered yes to any of the above than I warn you that yes, our site will be offensive to you. To answer your inquiry about the motive of the sites being humerous let me say this. I think the content of the piano guide landing page is hillarious, relevant, and pretty much sums up a lot of peoples feelings when they shop for a piano.
I do appreciate your thoughts and your post. Good luck with your Christmas sells!
Do you wear the same type of sports jacket?
What about the fit and finish? Quality of fabric? Any sound buttons? Is it a faithful execution of the designer's intent? Any hidden made-in-China label? Who headed the factory inspection team? Did you try it on before you bought it? Internet purchase...sure hope not!
Happy Birthday, Terry Wilson.
Hmmm! Might be a good idea to let someone else try the cake first.
Originally posted by Secondo:
Okay guys. Cool it. This thread is about Chinese pianos.
Yeah, and threads about Chinese pianos usually end up being lurid P$$-bashing fests.
I should know, I'm one of the chief protagonists....
My friend Primo says that trying to keep everyone posting on topic is like trying to herd a bunch of cats.
Originally posted by turandot:
Do you wear the same type of sports jacket?
What about the fit and finish? Quality of fabric? Any sound buttons? Is it a faithful execution of the designer's intent? Any hidden made-in-China label? Who headed the factory inspection team? Did you try it on before you bought it? Internet purchase...sure hope not!
Happy Birthday, Terry Wilson.
Hmmm! Might be a good idea to let someone else try the cake first. Well had the wife take the first bite, and it seems everything was fine.
I can tell you for a fact ASOP's jacket has "sound buttons".
We have a Perzina 122. We've had it for just three months and so I'll post again when we've had it longer.It's been great so far. We've had no problems with it beside the usual new piano problems of the piano settling in, like it going out of tune within a month. It sounds great. At first we thought the sound might be too big for the room, but it's nice because when someone plays, eveyone in the room has to listen since you can't hear anyting else. One problem I've had and our piano teacher says there's nothing I can do, is that there is a reverberation in the piano while you're playing it. It's a constant hum. I think it's from the sound bouncing off the wall behind. It's an upright so we can't move it into the middle of the room. Can anyone suggest something? Once I've noticed the sound, it's all I hear.
Just look at Piano*Dad. He's been reduced to a shadow of his former self. From what I've heard, he's trying to get into the Witness Protection program.
No, the truth is far worse ....
Dateline: NY, Dec. 5.
A dazed man was arrested today at Steinway Hall. One witness said he was observed with a band saw approaching a brand new model D under the dome that was being moved into position for a concert this evening. The man, who repeatedly mumbled that he should be called Piano*Dad, claimed he was merely trying to improve on the shameless condition of many new steinway pianos foisted on an unsuspecting furniture-loving, status hungry population of dotcom millionaires.
Steinway officials said the man was stopped from doing grievous damage to the new instrument by the timely action of a top salesperson and Steinway kitten named PianoMadam. She bravely interposed her body between the vengeful assailant and the sleek ebony piano. PianoMadam tartly observed that she would have done the same for a Boston, given its excellent pedigree and unparalleled Steinway design.
More details as they become available...
I would have expected no less from PianoMadam. Noblesse oblige, after all.
varshali,
That sounds annoying. I've heard that moving the piano a bit further away from the wall sometimes helps if it's the acoustics. If it's a cabinet buzz, that won't help. Did you mention it to the tuner when you got your store-provided tuning?
Piano*Dad and FogVilleLad,
You know that posting in this thread at this point is not much different from being spotted by fellow-members in the Walletjes or spending a night in Kabukicho and being seen doing it. Just a warning. You know...mind your image...that sort of thing.
Piano*Dad,
A few questions
1.) Were there any wood shavings in the D case before you applied the bandsaw?
2.) Did you spot Karen Alphabet or Berber on the premises?
3.) What does 'tartly' mean in this context? Have you thought about the implications of a tartly madam selling an Essex?
Dateline: NY, Dec. 5 10:30 P.M.
As the potential piano chopper was led away from Steinway Hall, a triumphant PianoMadam glared at him and asked if he thought she was just a mere sales rep. As he quietly accepted the hand cuffs, he replied,
"Madam, we've already established that, but since we're in Steinway Hall we cannot haggle over the price."
Sheer genius, Piano*Dad! These two posts get my nomination for the PW Academy Awards.
turandot,
I did not mention the problem at the initial tuning. We had a bad experience with the initial delivery which I didn't mention before since that wasn't the point of these posts. Our piano was delivered unprepped by the dealer. There was still wooden planks holding the keys down inside using plastic ties. We couldn't figure out initially why the keys were so hard to play and didn't make a good sound. We finally got it tuned a few days later instead of letting the piano settle since we were having such problems. The piano tuner found the wood inside. They basically took the piano from the warehouse and delivered it to us as is. Needless to say, the humming wasn't present before the tuning and I only noticed it later. We haven't gotten it retuned yet. We are waiting a few more months to do that.
Hi Vaishali: Two thoughts:
(1) Did you get the same piano you played at the store? I believe we are supposed to write down the serial number before going home to make sure the delivered piano is the same one.
(2) You might try some carpeting under the piano?
(3) Tell the dealer immediately, so in case it continues to drive you crazy, you can discuss an exchange. I wouldn't delay to let them know exactly what you are going through.
(4) I thought Math was my best subject in high school and college . . .
Wishing you the best
They basically took the piano from the warehouse and delivered it to us as is.
Varshali,
The story of your delivery is more than vaguely familiar to me. If this is the dealer that I think it is, you should tell them you want prompt attention or you will disclose their identity in this forum.
I'm glad you brought it up here. The typical Chinese piano depends heavily on its state of preparation to make a good showing. This kind of effort (or lack of effort) on the part of your dealer is part of the actual user experience. From what you're saying here, I don't think it's the acoustic properties of your room. I suppose it's one more thing left unattended after the dealer had your full payment in hand.
We did not get the same piano as the store. They didn't have the size we wanted. The floor has carpeting, so that's not the issue. But I think I will mention it to the store. I don't think they'll do anything, and will make excuses about it.
P*D, we feel your angst. I hear that the slammer in Steinway Village has a "B stock" Essex in the gym. Keep in touch.
PS, the guy who offers to share his dessert with you - not a friend.
Piano*Dad,
What are your trying to insinuate about mentioning Steinway in a Chinese thread? What are your trying to say? Are you suggesting they are somehow copying MH in someway?
You should be ashamed!
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
[b]Dateline: NY, Dec. 5 10:30 P.M.
As the potential piano chopper was led away from Steinway Hall, a triumphant PianoMadam glared at him and asked if he thought she was just a mere sales rep. As he quietly accepted the hand cuffs, he replied,
"Madam, we've already established that, but since we're in Steinway Hall we cannot haggle over the price."
[/b]
LOL. Think she gets now that he is not her Piano*Daddy?
Turandot, I listened again to your recording, and really do like the tone of your piano. Then I listened to the Knabe (which of course, I have heard in person in 3 different sizes), and while the Knabe was a little more woody, the overall tone, I thought, was pretty similar, full and dark. Love it.
There's about a 99% chance I will be able to contribute to the actual subject matter of this thread in the future. Might be a little while yet, but no doubt it's coming!
diinin,
Thanks for the kind words. Lest anyone think I am peddling CD's or Nordiska's through PMs, I'm going to quote here my answer to your question of what piano I play. I have removed my reference to going prices.
I have a simple nordiska 126. I probably told you a way back when that it's not for everyone. The scale design produces a lot of partials. The overall tone is dark and a little brooding for most people's taste. The Nordiska G at 5'5", and the Nordiska K at 6'1" are both good values in Chinese grands......but, like I say, the scale design and tone are not to everyone's taste. I would prefer a more neutral tone than the Nordiska, but I do prefer it to sharp penetrating tone, and in my particular price / value / needs equation it was the choice.
If you really want to hear a finer Nordiska than mine played by a finer pianist by me and recorded by a member here who really knows what he is doing, I would suggest you send a PM to member hv and ask him to send you some sound files of his wife Sue playing their 7' Nordiska grand. Actually, Now that I think about it, I think I will e-mail him myself and ask him to start a thread of his wife's performances on their Nordiska. Recently he hosted such a thread featuring a Steingraeber. Although the Nordiska grands certainly do not have the 'wow' factor associated with Steingraeber, IHMO the K and the O are fine pianos, not fine pianos for the money, just fine pianos period.
turnadot and diinin, this thread has several links to hv's recordings of Sue Keller playing the big Nordiska.
Oh, yeah, I've listened to his recordings from earlier this year--does he have more? He posted links to recordings on the 5'5, the 6'1", and his own 7'. I would love to hear something slow and classical, since that's all I play. The end of your piece was pretty classical sounding, so that helped.
No, I know you're not pushing Nordiska, or CDs
. Your link to the recording was earlier in this thread. I myself am trying out as many Chinese brands as I can get my hands (literally) on.
Hey T-Dot,
If you ever wanted to push your CD's I know a Piano Website that just so happens to sell such.
Hi Vaishali:
I am of the opinion that because you did not play that piano at the store, you had no way of knowing how it would sound in your home. The sound that bothers you may be inherent in the piano or could be a defect. It could also be a larger instrument's sound in your living room (I think you said you upped the size from the one you tried in the showroom). I would encourage you to discuss this all with the dealer. You may be surprised how willing they may be to see a happy customer. On the other hand, if the dealer does not respond favorably to you, that is a matter that you can bring to the attention of the piano forum. I would also mention to the dealer that you are a member of the forum and were encouraged to discuss the problems with your dealer.
Hi Vaishali:
I am of the opinion that because you did not play that piano at the store, you had no way of knowing how it would sound in your home. The sound that bothers you may be inherent in the piano or could be a defect. It could also be a larger instrument's sound in your living room (I think you said you upped the size from the one you tried in the showroom). I would encourage you to discuss this all with the dealer. You may be surprised how willing they may be to see a happy customer. On the other hand, if the dealer does not respond favorably to you, that is a matter that you can bring to the attention of the piano forum. I would also mention to the dealer that you are a member of the forum and were encouraged to discuss the problems with your dealer.
Here is my daughter playing her 7 foot grand, which should be essentially the same as the Nordiska...although she is not as good a player as Sue Keller.
C'mon J Mark,
I know a picture is worth a thousand words and all that, but this is surely a reverse of the usual. Normally members supply the text and are encouraged to post pix. So how about some text....you know....actual user experience? Bring a little light into the darkness.
Um, jeez, maybe another picture will help....
Actual user experience. Two weeks ago took delivery on 6'2" Hamilton Grand (H401). Commented on page one of this thread by another owner. Ours was tuned prior to leaving the showroom, and will be tuned again within a couple of weeks. We're letting it adjust to our room/heat/humidity (about 42%). D# above mid C is slightly off...other than that it's playing beautifully. Perfect in the room. about 1/3 is over an area rug, 2/3 over hardwood. Tone is what I'd call a medium. Very powerful bass, upper registers are clear...but not too bright. Will not change voicing at least for year one. Daughters are spending time over and above "practice time" to sight read, and are having a ball.
Sorry for the double post. Should have added that Hamilton brand is owned by Baldwin. They "spec" it, decide on parts, and design, and it's manufactured in China, and sent to Arkansas for inspection. Standard 10 year warranty backed by Baldwin, which is now owned by Gibson, Nashville. That was plenty of American backing for me. I had a Honda Element for four years. Was it Japanese? Well more than half the parts were from the U.S. and it was assembled in the U.S., the dealer was in the U.S. and his profits stayed in the US. But the corporate profits went to Japan. Which is better? Not sure. And not sure I care. It's a world economy.
Is that "Ellenburg" I see on the fallboard of your new piano, J. Mark?
Congratulations! May it bring you and your daughters years of playing pleasure.
J. Mark, congratulations! What'd ya get?
Originally posted by fathertopianist:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
[b] [b]Dateline: NY, Dec. 5 10:30 P.M.
As the potential piano chopper was led away from Steinway Hall, a triumphant PianoMadam glared at him and asked if he thought she was just a mere sales rep. As he quietly accepted the hand cuffs, he replied,
"Madam, we've already established that, but since we're in Steinway Hall we cannot haggle over the price."
[/b]
LOL. Think she gets now that he is not her Piano*Daddy? [/b]Makes me wonder, whatever happened to Noona?
Originally posted by OperaTenor:
J. Mark, congratulations! What'd ya get?
Thanks. I shouldn't be so catty. It's just that I haven't been in any hurry to invite a firestorm, and this place has not been, shall we say, very supportive of people who deal with Terry Wilson.
The piano is a 7 foot Ellenburg. I've had it for several months. I haven't been posting much during that time, and have not gotten involved in the PSS "debates" that have taken place. Just haven't much felt like it. It all seems sort of surreal, when I read people here saying things like "Ellenburg's don't really exist."
I was pretty close to buying a Yamaha GB1 from a local shop. But I played a seven foot piano somewhere and the little five footer just couldn't compare. Terry offers a seven footer, and the price was below the price of the GB1, including delivery. I spoke to Terry about it, and I felt he was being entirely honest with me in saying that it is quite a nice piano. And he was crystal clear that if I was not 100% satisfied, the transaction would be 100% reversed (and he knows my profession <g>).
So I ordered one.
It took several weeks -- I told Terry that was ok and the next available run to NY was fine. It was delivered by two guys who set it up for me (I mean, assembled, not "setup") (and no, they installed the lyre after it was upright on all three legs).
I had a tuner/tech come right away, as I wanted a professional assessment. I found the tech on the RPT site. Turns out he also does the pianos at my music school (largest in the area). The guy came to my house and he spent nearly five hours, meticulously working on the piano, crawling under it, over it etc. (I think he just didn't have anything else to do that day.)
This guy had spent most of his career working for Steinway, and had way too many Steinway stories (alas) (seriously, I enjoyed them). I took a low-key approach and explained to him that I have two small children, I'm an adult "re-beginner," and this is likely just an "interim piano" until I can afford a really good one. This was at the end of his visit, after I had paid him and we were just chatting.
I was sort of surprised at his reaction. He said, sort of slowly, "Actually... you could keep this piano for a long time. This is a good piano.... Quite a good piano." He then sat down and played it for a while. He was a good player. And again he said, "This really is quite a good piano." He repeated that it could serve me well for many years, "maybe forever."
My own assessment: I love it. The sound is BIG, as I guess a seven foot grand will be. I can find nothing to complain about. Well, there are maybe two notes that seem to sustain a little without the pedal. And the pedal "whoosh" seems a little louder than I expected. I'm told both these things can be worked on (although the whoosh may be normal), and the plan is to have the tech back later this month. Given the price of the piano, I am perfectly happy to pay the tech to do a little "fine tuning" on it. I like having a solid relationship with an independent tech anyway.
In the meantime, the piano (in our living room) has become the center of nightly family gatherings. My daughter *loves* it, and we sit together on the bench and she learns little one-note songs (she has learned several and does pretty good). My son (only 3) stands with us and is occasionally allowed to plink a key or two. When they get bored, I pull out a book of Christmas songs, and play for a while -- I can more or less site-read the fairly simple arrangements, and this makes my wife happy. We usually have a fire in the fireplace, but it is a fair distance from the piano.
So I hope you can understand why I just haven't had much of an appetite for posting in these inevitably venomous debates (yes, I admit, I have been the source of some of the nastiness in the past). I'm frankly just too happy with my piano to much care.
Excellent J. Mark! I too found that after speaking with Terry (and his right hand man Jay) I felt comfortable dealing with him. My experience mirrors yours. I also had a RPT (found from the online guild) give my piano the once over (tune, regulation and one additional visit for a damper issue). One of the reasons I bought my particular piano (beyond the great price) was that it was a piano from the Dongbei factory. My technician has over two decades of experience in the business and he thought the piano was well made and a very good value (Its a 6'2" Suzuki Grand).
Congrats on finding a good piano. I'll bet you and your family will enjoy it for a long time.
Congratulations J. Mark. As another re-beginner I can tell you there is nothing like a new piano to refire your enthusiasm for playing. And it lasts. You are right to focus on what you have and let the only 'noise' you hear be the wonderful music you and your family make.
Hi J. Mark.
Congratulations on your new piano! I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thread regarding your new 7’ grand piano. Also, the pic’s indicate that you have a beautiful piano, a beautiful home and a beautiful family. You are indeed well blessed.
I can see why you are pre-occupied with your new piano to the point where the debates and arguments that occur on these forums take a back seat
.
Best regards,
Rickster
Congratulations J. Mark. I've always had my reservations about how ANY child can grow up in this country and not know who Paris is, but I AM convinced that she has NO DOUBT who the best Dad in the neighborhood is.
Now that you've finally pulled the trigger before she leaves for college, you must now upload recordings and join the fun at ABF.
Maybe some day my ship will come in (although I'll probably be at the airport). If it does, I'll build a house by you. We can then rename the street something like:
When I was visiting Schimmel's factory, the GPS on the tour bus was passing through a town that sounded strangely familiar...
JMark, congrats on the piano!
Congrats J.Mark. I'll bet the 7-footer creates quite a reverberation in that room! That should make practice a much easier thing for kids to do, and you too.
Enjoy the piano and congrats J. Mark- it's a great thing you are doing for your daughter.
J Mark Congratulations. As a person who had had 7 foot piano for almost 40 years, I agree that there is nothing that can replace that wondeful, effortless smooth bass.
It's beautiful and you'll enjoy it for many years.
I love it.
J. Mark,
Congratulations from your friends from northern westchester. I'm looking foward to taking it for a test drive... Piano Party- hint,hint.
My son and I wish you and your daughter many years of joy.
Best regards,
fingers
Wow, thanks folks. I really do appreciate the kind thoughts.
Here's a little vid made with a cheap digital camera a couple of months ago, for your amusement Remember, she just turned 5 and she's barely learning how to play one note at a time:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VoOUlZinuwg I posted this once before elsewhere, and it was made using what I later learned was a wrongly-configured recording setup, with an injured finger... but it's the only one I have right now:
http://www.box.net/shared/fruhdjn6ih
Hey, fingers. Long time. You guys should come by the house, and yes, let's do have a piano party. Might have to be after Christmas for that, as we have parties and weddings all month long (alas). But come on over any time. Whatever happened to Suzy?
J. Mark the video of your daughter is PRICELESS!!
P.S. for fingers "Playing piano at age 2, it was thought that I was some sort of idiot-savant. As it turns out, I'm just an idiot." still the funniest line I've read on the forum.
Originally posted by Vince in Vegas:
P.S. for fingers "Playing piano at age 2, it was thought that I was some sort of idiot-savant. As it turns out, I'm just an idiot." still the funniest line I've read on the forum.
[/QB]
Vince, uhhh.... the sad part about that is that I'm not trying to be funny.
All kidding aside though, thank you.
fingers
J. Mark, thanks for the reply. You won;t get any flames from this sector.
I guess I better enjoy my plate of crow, and apologize to Terry Wilson.
Originally posted by OperaTenor:
J. Mark, thanks for the reply. You won;t get any flames from this sector.
I guess I better enjoy my plate of crow, and apologize to Terry Wilson.
Well who could refuse a heartfelt apology like that? If you are sincere OT, than I say sincerely no problem.
J. Mark,
Though I have thanked you privately for the business, let me say publicly I truly appreciate it. I can't wait to hear some recordings! You have a very lucky daughter, but I am sure you feel lucky as a dad like I do as well.
See Ya'
Originally posted by Piano Superstore:
Originally posted by OperaTenor:
[b] J. Mark, thanks for the reply. You won;t get any flames from this sector.
I guess I better enjoy my plate of crow, and apologize to Terry Wilson.
Well who could refuse a heartfelt apology like that? If you are sincere OT, than I say sincerely no problem. [/b]Yes Terry, my apology for doubting the existence of Ellenburgs, along with attacking you about it, is indeed sincere.
Originally posted by OperaTenor:
Originally posted by Piano Superstore:
[b]
Originally posted by OperaTenor:
[b] J. Mark, thanks for the reply. You won;t get any flames from this sector.
I guess I better enjoy my plate of crow, and apologize to Terry Wilson.
Well who could refuse a heartfelt apology like that? If you are sincere OT, than I say sincerely no problem.
[/b]
Yes Terry, my apology for doubting the existence of Ellenburgs, along with attacking you about it, is indeed sincere. [/b]No problem!
I'm thinking want to buy an upright piano. I have approached a Wendl & Lung dealer in Malaysia. I need some opinion from you guy about the Wendl & Lung 122cm upright piano.
J Mark, your daughter is adorable, and your piano sounds wonderful. Please post more recordings! Do you play Moonlight Sonata? That's one of the pieces I use to test the tone of a piano, because of the bass octaves and slower tempo (1st movement, of course).
No Chinese piano owner will get any criticism out of me, that's for sure. (Or should I say, "owner of a Chinese piano..."
).
Originally posted by J. Mark:
[QB] Here is my daughter playing her 7 foot grand, which should be essentially the same as the Nordiska...although she is not as good a player as Sue Keller.
Ah, ha... found the thread! Congrats on the piano purchase. It really does look very much like our Nordiska. Sue says she didn't play half as well as your daughter so soon after 1st encountering the piano.
Howard
I see more posts since I was last here.
OT -- Thank you for your kindness.
Vince and diinin -- Thank you for your kind comments about Clare. All children are beautiful, but of course I think my own are the most beautiful.
Terry -- There is no need to thank me for my business (but it is nice of you nonetheless). The gold lettering on the fallboard of my piano will be a source of pride (and an occasional chuckle) for a long, long time. I also know, from our conversations and photos exchanged, that you have every right to be a proud poppa (and I enjoyed saying hi to your lovely little girl on the phone). Thank you.
Howard -- Thank you for your kind words (and for putting aside our past differences). And thank Sue, too. One thing Clare and I often do is watch Youtube vids of people playing the piano, and I have shown her Sue's vids. Most of the vids we watch are stodgy old men playing Beethoven, so it's nice to have an upbeat, talented woman for her to look up to.
It's snowing like crazy here in NY today, and we just took the kids to see Santa. Very exciting. Happy Holidays to you all, and thank you and Frank for this wonderful forum.
Mark
All water under the bridge... and what a nice comment to Sue who says kids probably relate to her because she's just a big kid herself. Here's a vid list of some younger players your daughter may also relate to:
Peoria Piano Contest - Junior Division Howard
Aww, Group Hug...... please, Bring back the Angst!
Originally posted by Kenny Blankenship:
Aww, Group Hug...... please, Bring back the Angst!
Don't worry. NAMM is just around the corner and I am sure there is something we will all find to fight about?
Hi everyone!
Being an owner of a chinese grand - here are my initial thoughts.
About six months ago we bought a new Wendl &Lung 178 (similar to Steigerman premium/ Hailun) and I must say that so far I am very impressed by it! The sound is great and the action is at least for me perfect ( light yet very responsive).
After three months we had it tuned (it kept its tune very well) and also some slight voicing of a few keys. Since then the tune has continued to be very stable.
The only problem so far was noice from the right pedal (sustain) which the tech had to come three or four times during the first months to fix - but now it is silent!
You sometimes see W&L (and others) being regarded as a good entrylevel or beginner grand. And of course its a great piano for the beginner but I have played the piano on an almost daily basis for 35 years now and I can truly recommend this one also to the experienced player. The question that I obviously cant answer is the long time durability, how will it sound in a few years?? - well maybe Schwammerl or JohnEB could fill in something there...
//floyd
You sometimes see W&L (and others) being regarded as a good entrylevel or beginner grand. And of course its a great piano for the beginner but I have played the piano on an almost daily basis for 35 years now and I can truly recommend this one also to the experienced player.
I couldn't agree more Floyd. I think those who are looking for a quality made piano, even a few steps above a so called "entry" level piano would be well served to look at some pianos coming out of China today.
Congrats on your piano!