Inspired by "The piano is a thing of the past"

OR:

Why your child should play piano[/b]

On the Piano is a thing of the past thread, there was a great suggestion to "spread the gospel" of all the good things that playing piano does. I thought I would start a brief list of my feelings on the subject. Feel free to use these in conversation with parents or others who might like to try piano, but are not familiar with this information:

First of all, more than 2300 years ago, Plato said, “Music is a more potent instrument than any other for education, and children should be taught music before anything else.” Today, many studies show that listening to and playing music affects a child’s ability to learn. Music also helps children express emotions, gives them a sense of identity and self-confidence, and exposes them to other cultures.

Piano has a more profound effect than just about any other instrument because it can be the entire orchestra. There is so much linear thought (thought process needed to perform higher mathematics, to come to a scientific conclusion, etc.) going on when playing piano because many more musical desicions are made by a pianist than say, a rock guitarist or even a violinist.


♪ Lasting effects: Studies of children who play piano show higher levels of interest in academics (and exhibit higher GPAs), higher scores on cognitive competence tests (including math and reading), greater emotional growth, learn languages easier, and display better attitudes and behaviors.

♪ Skills gained: Children who study piano are working skills such as: fine and gross motor skills, attention span, self-esteem, math and reading skills, self-expression and communication, concentration levels, discipline, listening skills, logic skills, abstract thinking, memory, willingness to learn and creativity.

♪ The Mozart effect: In 1993, college students who listened to 10 minutes of Mozart scored 8 or 9 points higher on a spatial-temporal test than students with no music. In work with preschool children and keyboard lessons, researchers found that the children that received keyboard training performed 46% better on spatial- temporal tests than the other children. Spatial-temporal reasoning is a key to the higher brain functions required for mathematics, physics and engineering.

♪ The “Window of Opportunity”: As a child’s brain develops, connections are being made between trillions of neurons. If the brain does not use some of these neurons, it begins to eliminate them. The richer the environment of the child, the more developed the pathways of the neurons. The most powerful period of this development for both verbal and musical abilities occurs from birth to about age nine. Although this does not mean that a child cannot learn music after that age, the child will probably not develop as great an ability as they would have been able to had they been exposed to music earlier.

Please feel free to contribute. (Do you like my little music notes?)

Thank-you for sharing the wisdom of Plato. Put simply playing the piano is not only extremely fun but it certainly keeps you busy. I like to say there isn't enought time in a lifetime to learn all the pieces you would like to play....what a wonderful way to help keep your brain alive.

I am playing a concert today and will use this quote.

thanks,
rada

Way to go, rada!!

Rich,

I know you said this already, but I want to emphasize it. DISCIPLINE!

How many kids waste are wasting away their childhoods parked in front of a tv or video game? Piano is the anti-video game. It can teach discipline, respect, and appreciation for finer things in life. Piano playing builds nueron pathways like you said. What is tv and gaming doing to those neurons?

Sports is another area where kids can learn discipline. And we certainly see many students drop piano lessons in favor of sports. Sports are definately a big improvement over tv and video games. I just wish that we could impress on parents and their kids that sports, for the most part, are a flash in the pan. It's great when a person is young, but what happens as the kid becomes an adult and ages? The body usually starts falling apart and most of those adults end up parking their butts in front of the tv to watch other people playing their pastime. Piano, and music in general, can provide personal growth and enrichment for a lifetime.

Dan

The other day someone was waiting at our door even before we opened the store.

The lady entered, looked around and said:

"I would like to buy a very good piano for our kids. We are o.k but not rich believing that music is very important - especially in today's crazy world."

At first I thought I didn't hear right then showed the lady around.

Realizing that she obviously meant business I took her to the row of our 49" uprights at which time she seemed to really like one particular model.

After giving her a smoking deal [$ 2000 below sale price] and delivering piano next day, she called me yesterday thanking us for such 'wonderful piano' - kids are fighting to get on it.

"What a wonderful world".

Norbert

As a pianist who started at age 8 and have played for 36 years (put down that calculator!!) I would just like to add something.

Learning as a child is much easier than learning as an adult. Unfortunately, many people don't develop an interest in studying the piano until they are adults and find out that it is difficult and that they may never be able to play at the level of those who started young. Kids don't realize how much they are going to long to play a musical instrument later in life.

To be able to play advanced piano as an adult is a enviable skill in the social world. You will be admired and praised by all. Other adults are always telling me, "I wish I had continued my piano lessons when I was younger. It must be wonderful to play whatever you want, whenever you want".

Don
Kansas City

I couldn't agree with all of you any more.
Two days ago my oldest brother heard me playing Liszt's concert paraphrase on Riggoleto. He hadn't heard me play in a while, and he came up to me and said "I can see that the piano is going to be your life-long mistress"
Although I wouldn't quite have put it like that myself, it's certainly going to be a life-long companion!
Start young if you can. It's the most rewarding hobby you can devote time to.

While I agree with you about music/piano and sports being positive, i must disagree with you about TV and video games.

Being a life long video game lover, playing more than 7 instruments and father of a 6 year old boy, I believe in a balance of things.
My son got his time slotted out for different activities including TV, video games and piano. For now, each day, he has 30 min of TV, 30 min of video (DS, Wii, PS3 - his choice), 30 - 45 min of piano practice. I myself don't watch TV but i always play video game and spend the entire time practicing piano with him.
"Finer" things in life are often difficult to define. For me, it's the things that you would enjoy and do it with the people you love.
I've seen enough parents pushing their own belief in life on their kids and not expose them to different things in life. I personally don't think it's positive to do so.
Piano for me is just another instrument and music is an enjoyable science but I am not sure I'll consider them finer than other things I would enjoy doing.

Just another perspective to share.

Just as muscles need exercise so does the brain. Playing piano is an excellent brain exercise for anyone.

Great thread, Rich. You are soooo right that the piano is the 'anti-game'!! We've become a "done-to" society, seemingly, rather than a "doing" society. Perhaps that will change when fossil-derived electricity is more dear than various appendages--piano players will then RULE THE WORLD!!!

God bless you koiloco...your son will...but I would posit that you ARE 'pushing your beliefs' onto him--the belief that it's "okay" for boys (even grown ones) to play the piano, that it's fun, and that it's at least on par in importance with TV and VGs. IMHO, those are fine beliefs to "push"...

Nice thread, Rich.

I’ll add that you don’t even have to play the piano very well to get some admiration and recognition from others; heck, as poorly as I play the piano some of my friends and coworkers think I’m good at it. I don’t know if they are just being polite or have never really heard a good pianist and don’t know the difference .

Moral of the story… any level of piano playing is a good, positive attribute to possess .

Best regards,

Rickster

wrong thread

JDelmore,
In my case, i did not do any pushing when it comes to all 3, TV, VGs and Piano. TV and VGs, i did not even need to ask but with piano, we did ask him if he wanted to learn and his answer was "yes". He was exposed to a lot of music and all my instruments since little so he could have developed some affection for it.
What I did push was the discipline to keep these 3 things in a healthy balance. So I guess in a way, as a whole, I try to teach/pass on to him my belief in balance of things but by no mean, I'd negatively push it on him.

Koiloco,

I think your approach to tv and vgs is great. If all kids had that kind of structure then everything would be great. But I look at my nieces and nephews who spend their entire summer vacation holed up in the basement playing vgs or watching tv, with no other responsibility than mowing the lawn once a week. I realize they are the other extreme, but I think their parents are more typical than responsible parents like you.

And I have to add that I just recently quit playing World of Warcraft, after two years of it. My wife is so much happier now. There are millions and millions of people who are addicted to gaming and can't control themselves.

I wish that my parents had made me sit down and take piano lessons. But I am now starting to take lessons from Laura.

Dan

lol Dan, half of my friends are on WoW. I always have been afraid to start a mmorpg even though my friends keep inviting me to join. I think people are addicted to the social interaction more than the game itself. I did and still play occasionally a mmorpg called "9 Dragons". But when I log on, I enjoy chatting with friends more than grinding the game itself. I met a lot of local people through this game and became friends. It's kind of funny cuz I came from a single player platform.
It's great that you're taking lessons from Laura but don't give up gaming either if you still enjoy it. Just keep it in balance

Good to see another gamer on this forum !

Koiloco,

I have a couple of games on my PC that I play maybe 2 hours a week lately, but no more mmorpg games for me.

Dan

Ain't that the truth! I rarely play for anybody (mostly because I'm decidedly mediocre, have very little repertoire that I can actually play even halfway well, and what repertoire I do have is very basic), yet any time friends hear me play I get told how good I am.

Maybe they're just stroking my ego, but I really think that most people can't tell the difference. I have a year of lessons as a child, two years of self-teaching as an adult, and I get almost as much respect from most people as a concert pianist!

I agree with koiloco, balance is the key. When my kids start lessons they won't have to give up video games or computer time, just fit one more thing into their schedules. (FWIW, I never watch TV, so I'm not sure they realize that that black box in the corner does anything more than play educational videos!)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is this: Being able to play the piano also makes you desirable to the opposite sex. If your kids don't care about that yet, they will soon enough (or maybe too soon!)

Rich - Thanks so much for the great post. My three month old is being fed a steady diet of Keith Jarrett (ballads) and Bill Evans solo piano. It always mellows him out when he's fussy and it's amazing how long it keeps him focused.

They say the first colors a baby can see are black and white - for example, a keyboard! Coincidence? I think not.

I heard that the "Mozart Effect" had been discredited. Either way, I salute Rich's and others' enthusiasm, and, if push comes to shove, I agree that it's worth using whatever argument works to stoke people's interest in the piano. However, I must confess that I tend to bristle at the "Mozart Effect" and similar ideas. Whenever I admit to people that I like classical music, they either look at me like I have six heads, or they say, "Good for you!" as if I've just claimed to eat oatmeal and engage in vigorous exercise daily. This makes me a bit crazy, because I don't listen to (or play) classical music because it's "good for me," and I doubt anyone else does either. You have to love it, I think, to pursue it beyond the first "Classical Music for People Who Hate Classical Music" CD or "Keyboard for Dummies" book. And I fear that, just as millions of people abandon exercise routines b/c they've never found a way to make them enjoyable, many try to take classical music TOO seriously and turn themselves off to it.

The only better solution I can offer is the "playing with the windows open" strategy from the other thread. The saucer eyes of a child watching someone actually coaxing sound out of that funny-shaped piece of furniture are better than all the brain studies in the world.

[/b]

While it is true that in the mid - '90s the Mozart Effect was looked at as a panacea to all things brain related, there have been many other studies that make unmistakable connections between music and many higher brain functions.

Look up the work of Dr. Francis Rauscher and Dr. Shaw on the subject. Look up what James Catterell has found.

In 1998, there was an interesting presentation made at the Society of Neuroscience[/b] meeting in Los Angeles by Dr. Lawrence Parsons. This is his summary:

"An understanding of the brain locations that represent the separate aspects of music will help us identify the neural mechanisms that are specific to music, specific to language and are shared between the two," says Parsons. "The finding that there is a right brain region for notes and musical passages that corresponds in location to a left brain region for letters and words illustrates how a neural mechanism may be present in each of the two brain hemispheres becomes special adapted for analogous purposes but with different information contexts."

The connection between language and music is well documented. So is the connection between music and spatial relations, music and science, and music and math.

My concern is that making the statement you did Dark Green without backing it up with specifics can leave someone with the impression that all of this research is "smoke and mirrors", which it clearly is not.

My 2 cents,

Forget about music making me smart. The older I get the more I hope that playing will help ward off dementia. Use it or lose it.

...otherwise when the carrots start blooming on that upper Bb the rabbit eating the greens will bump my hand on that high arpeggio and my stinking saxophone will be useless.

PIANISTS HAVE MORE EFFICIENT BRAINS

by Dr. Norman M. Weinberger



Scientists in Germany have discovered that pianists have more efficient brains. A group led by Dr. Timo Krings required pianists and non-musicians of the same age and sex to perform complex sequences of finger movements. Their brains were scanned using a technique called "functional magnetic resonance imaging" (fMRI) which detects the activity levels of brain cells, by measuring changes in blood flow. The non-musicians were able to make the movements as correctly as the pianists. However, the amount of brain activity in areas controlling movement was different. The pianists made the correct movements while having less brain activation.

Thus, compared to non-musicians, the brains of pianists are more efficient at making skilled movements. These findings show that musical training can enhance brain function [source: Neuroscience Letters, 2000, 278, 189-198]

This article is reprinted with permission of the author from Musica Research Notes, (Volume VII, Issue 2, Spring 2000). For further information, contact MuSICA at www.musica.uci.edu/index.html


Classical Music's Traditional Audience Is Graying.
By the year 2030, approximately half of our nation's population will be over 65 years of age. Music educators have the power to make Classical music matter again to young people.
(Source: Chamber Music, February 1998; a publication of Chamber Music America)

Music Students Are Scoring.
Music students are outperforming non-music students on the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT). College-bound seniors with coursework or experience in music performance scored 52 points higher on the verbal portion and 37 points higher on the math portion of the SAT than students with no coursework or experience in the arts.
(Source: The College Board, September 1997)

Music Is Beating Computers
at Enhancing Early Childhood Development. Music training, specifically piano instruction, is far superior to computer instruction in dramatically enhancing children's abstract reasoning skills necessary for learning math and science. Learning music at an early age causes long-term enhancement of spatial- temporal reasoning.
(Source: Frances Rauscher, Ph.D., Gordon Shaw, Ph.D., University of California, Irvine, 1997)

Music Enhances Linguistic Skills.
Music -- specifically song -- is one of the best training grounds for babies learning to recognize the tones that add up to spoken language.
(Source: Sandra Trehub, University of Toronto, 1997)

America Is A Country Full Of Music-Makers.
113 million, or 53%, of Americans over the age of 12 are current or former music makers.
(Source: 1997 "American Attitudes Towards Music" poll conducted by the Gallup Organization)

Americans Say Schools Should Offer Instrumental Music Instruction
as part of the regular curriculum. 88% of respondents indicated this in a 1997 "American Attitudes Towards Music" Gallup poll.
(Source: Music Trades, September 1997)

Scientists, Therapists Agree: Music Heals More Than Just The Spirit.
Music benefits older adults. Active music-making positively affects the biology and behavior of Alzheimer's patients.
(Source: Music Making and Wellness Project, a study conduc ted at the University of Miami)

The Window Of Opportunity For Studying Music
is between the ages of three and ten. This is the time when we are the most receptive to and able to process music.
(Source: Newsweek, February 19, 1996)

Studying Music Strengthens Students' Academic Performance.
Rhode Island studies have indicated that sequential, skill-building instruction in art and music integrated with the rest of the curriculum can greatly improve children's performance in readi ng and math.
(Source: "Learning Improved by Arts Training" by Martin Gardiner, Alan Fox, Faith Knowles, and Donna Jeffrey, Nature, May 23, 1996)

Music and Spatial Task Performance: A Causal Relationship.
Music lessons, and even simply listening to music, can enhance spatial reasoning performance, a critical higher-brain function necessary to perform complex tasks including mathematics.
(Source: Frances Fauscher, Ph.D., Gordon Shaw, Ph.D., University of California, Irvine, 1994)

The Mozart Effect
surfaced about four years ago when research uncovered that adults who listened to music of complexity for ten minutes or so experienced temporary increases in their spatial IQ scores.
(Source: Frances Rauscher, Ph.D.,Gordon Shaw, Ph.D., University of California, Irvine,1993-1994)

Music Is One of Our Greatest Economic Exports.
"The arts are an economic plus -- second only to aerospace as our most lucrative national export."
(Source: Michael Greene of The National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences)

Music Teacher Expertise is a Critical Factor in Student Learning.
Research indicates that teachers of all subjects -- including music -- who are more experienced and educated are more effective in the classroom. Consequently, students learn more from them.
(Source: Paying for Public Education: New Evidence on How and Why Money Matters, by Ronald Ferguson, 1991)


And even if it didn't do all the stuff listed above, it's FUN! (source: Piano World:Frank Baxter, 2008)

i chuckle when i hear my kids whistle bach fugues...

(not that #2 is doing well in school)

The Piano a Thing of the Past!

The past having been over 300 compelling years of piano or keyboard music development!

And, the improvement of the instrument itself!

The affordability of keyboards and marketed piano study systems - in print and in computer form - as well as in group and individual instruction.

Piano has not been sitting still, has it!

Piano is a vessel that needs a willing brain to match the genius of the instrument's capacity - both in performance and composition.

Don't underestimate the attraction of the piano!

Don't minimize the human spirit's need for challenging endeavors.

Piano, the original "Game Boy". Things exciting and electrofying, capable of building a person to their human capacity through making music.

Discipline? Absolutely!
Harnessing brain waves and paths? Absolutely!
The piano is a thing of the past? Absolutely NOT!Far out? Yes, far out into the future.

Betty

I first ran into some of the articles quoted by Frank B at a Back to School mtg. at a local middle school a few years ago. The band teacher was addressing parents whose kids had enrolled in school band. She handed out a packet of different articles that linked music learning to overall GPA, growth of brain power, success in adult life etc. etc.

Band is a huge competitor to piano, especially to acoustic piano. These articles do not prove that the acoustic piano is any more beneficial in achieving brain fitness or academic success than the digital piano, the violin, or membership in the school chorus.

The problem with the acoustic piano industry is that it, like the instrument it manufactures, is unplugged from the world of today. Just as a digital piano allows connection to a whole world of electronic media, so does the society we live in allow us as consumers to be plugged into Internet communities around the world.

Electronic age consumers want transparency in product origin, component origin, and PRICING. The antiquated (and in many cases deplorable and dishonest)) conditions that exist today in the marketing of pianos will not get the job done. Those who keep the torch lit for acoustic pianos and the classical lit written for them do so out of an emotional response to the instrument and the literature. In so doing, they accept the bad with the good. Unfortunately, the greatest numbers of those who carry the torch are in older age groups. If you pan down the demographics age chart, the torch is flickering.

The piano industry has too many brands, too many models, too many lies, too many subterfuges, and no professional association to certify its good members and hold accountable all the peripheral hucksters, charlatans, and liars who populate its fringes.

NAMM serves the music industry, not the acoustic piano industry. Expecting NAMM to guarantee the acoustic piano's place in the scheme of things is expecting too much. Time to pass the hat and get your own association to advance your own agenda and clean up your image. Saying "I support NAMM" is like saying "I gave at the office".

Turandot, your best post so far that I've read
You are dead on !!!

turandot said:
[/b]

Wow,

Turandot, I have to say that I was disappointed by the nature of your post. I truly feel that in your post you have embraced the very worst of the piano industry, and while it does exist, it is a very small part of what happens on a day to day basis, at least in my experience.

My goal was to give ammunition to those who desired to "spread the gospel" of the joys of the acoustic piano and nothing more. My hope was to give a talking point or two to an avid amatuer that might strike a chord (no pun intended) with someone who might consider taking up the instrument. After all, when children are concerned, it is the parents that will influence what their activities are.

Frankly, I am not concerned with the amount of models and prices available on the market. I am very concerned, however, that the option of an acoustic piano is something that remains available for generations.

Yes, digital pianos can be cheaper - because they are cheaper to make. Yes, kids can play band instruments, or take karate, or play soccer. These are good things, too. They are also what piano competes against. The challenge is choice of time spent, IMHO. Yes, we need more information available on pianos, but as it is there is more available than ever before.

As far as your other points are concerned, if I wish to look for weeds in any industry, I will find them. Of course they are there.

I remain truly disappointed.

Rich,

I'm not trying to please or disappoint anyone. Would you rather I state my honest opinion or would you rather I say something to please you?

On the last post of the thread that you have said "inspired" yours, Frank B said:

Well, I've bought and paid for three acoustic pianos in the past two years. One of those was a gift for a younger member of the family who teaches piano for a living. As best as I know, our host doesn't own an acousitc piano.

You can infer from my purchases that I have no problem with the instruments. There are some good choices at many different price levels. Plenty of good enough used ones are out there too for people who want to get started on a limited budget.

Apparently, we differ on what stands between the instrument and the individual seeking to purchase it. What you refer to as a few weeds seem to me to be pervasive practices in pricing, marketing, and product disclosure that make the purchase process confusing and sometimes disheartening. I certianly don't mean to imply that you are a weed, but I think it's a mistake for you to say

I think you should be concerned.

Wow, between the pesky turandot and the loveable Rich, I would have to be on turandot's side this time around.

I have purchased 1 digital piano and 2 grand pianos sofar. I am planning to purchase a 3rd grand piano in a couple of years. I still can't see through piano pricing.

I enjoy playing pianos in showrooms here and there already, but I abhor the complete obfuscation of piano pricing.

Although I am very willing to UNDERSTAND that most piano dealers make an honest living, I ALWAYS get the FEELING that ALL piano dealers are out there to cheat me out of my money.

Why? Obfuscation of piano pricing.

In stark contrast to open pricing on just about any product on the market.

Edit: Oops, I just noticed that the discussion has been going off-topic. Sorry!

Doremi,

"Pesky" Turandot thanks you for your qualified support , but doesn't feel that you need to choose here between him and the "loveable" Rich. Loveable Rich is living his beliefs and putting his money where his mouth is. Pesky Turandot admires that greatly.

Pesky Turandot feels that the acoustic piano is fighting for survival against some formidable odds.....shifting cultural tastes, incredible leaps in music technology, and economic difficulties worldwide. Pesky Turandot does not buy the argument that today's youth are unfocused lazy louts however. This is a gigantic cop-out that is trotted out whenever the older generation fails to understand the younger one.

Pesky Turandot feels that the piano industry is too small to attack the big-picture problems head-on, and should focus on internal problems that are more within its control....antiquated marketing, an embarrassing pricing structure, and a cannibalistic free-for-all where its 'professional' retailers routinely slam each other's product lines, selling practices, and personal character.

Pesky Turandot does not feel that this is the time to sit around the campfire with held hands and closed eyes saying that the acoustic piano is a marvelous instrument and everything will be okay. Pesky Turandot (and maybe pesky Doremi ) would prefer that the piano industry do some housekeeping and clean up its act by initiating a professional organization that lays out specific truth-in-advertising, selling, and pricing practices, and enforces compliance with these practices by certifying its members who play ball and identifying its members who don't.

Sadly, I think acoustic piano is a shrinking, niche market and in the not-too-distant future, will transform into a boutique segment of the music industry.

Unless you have talent out the whazoo, it takes discipline, committment and repetition to play.

Digital is the future. We can only hope to supplant the guitar as the lead instrument in live music, which can happen, as tastes change.

But I am pessimistic about music, in general...

The major problem with pianos is that learning to play is difficult. It is a lonely endeavor and requires lots of patience and discipline. It is tedious work and is boring compared to all the siren songs around us. Parents don't know how to mentor with the piano and many don't want to listen to the output.

Newer technologies have developed a sophisticated reward system that provide the illusion of mastery with much less effort- this is what the piano is up against.

The truth is that to achieve mastery at anything, long term time and effort is required. We have all witnessed the 80/20 rule at play were one can get to 80% competancy at 20% effort. (and here is where our society has done the best job at make us feel like heroes at the 80% mark). It's that final 20% that takes 80% of the effort. This is where most of the people get off the bus.

Long way of saying that piano makes clear early on that the only way to mastery is lots of discipline and hard work and who wants to sign up for that. Why not just go from idea to idea, get to 80% have a moment of internal greatness, hit the wall and then move to the next stimulus/reward system.

Others are setting the priorities for our kids for their own benefit. They are not invested in teaching the values of discipline, apprenticeship, aesthetic pleasure, long term rewards. Piano is a great way to teach life skills-it doesn't have to be an end in itself. Generally it's about 10,000 hours of effort to be really good at something, is anyone paying attention to where the investment of time is going in themselves and their children?

lol, turandot, I was painting in pesky black and loveable white colors to get the message out in a few words.

However, the message on obfuscation of piano pricing is indeed intended to be black and white, because that's what it is, IMHO.

Gosh, there will hopefully no comments on the colors themselves. I won't respond to that.

I am very much inclined to agree with Fathertopianist and elements of what Turandot says.

I think the discipline argument is often misguided. Is it right for a parent to decide that a child shall commit hundreds or thousands of hours to learning to play a piano: and use discipline as a reason(among others) to support this decision? I regard that as at best a weak argument.

Children need to be motivated and encouraged to love music in order to derive real benefit from learning any instrument. Forcing them to learn something when they do not possess this interest, ultimately leads to disappointment, resentment and a waste of part of your child's life.

There is nothing special about the piano. It is just a tool to make music. It is no better or worse than any other tool to make music and your child will benefit most by learning an instrument that he is motivated to learn which may well not be piano.

Some instruments, though not necessarily any easier to learn to professional level, can be much more accessible to children in terms of delivering some some of recognizable musical performance quickly. Acoustic pianos suffer from having a steep learning curve, a high price, a costly maintenance requirement, no portability and they occupy a lot of space. Practice can be a trial for the whole family if a silent mechanism is not present. So Jolly is spot on - digital is without doubt the future for most people.

Computer games can also build intellectual and other skills. I suspect that most people who disparage them do so from a position of ignorance.

The piano has allot of competition for your child's time. Video games, computers, movie rentals, 150 TV channels all compete for time. Then theres the higher number of home work hours and the trend to team sports for so many students. There is actually little time left for children to learn a musical instrument unless they are highly motivated musically. I do believe that both guitar and piano should be taught in the schools on a voluntary basis.

nm

Steven, coming over from that same Mozart thread, I'm starting to get where you're coming from too. The problem with the idea that the youngest age is a window of opportunity comes through what is done with that. A child who is left sitting in front of a t.v. or without much to occupy him will not develop in the same way as one who is given plenty of stimulus and opportunity. He should have a "rich environment" and the nature of that environment makes a difference.

What has happened, however, is that we have oversimplified this, not understood how rich learning is, and we put this to relatively narrow purposes through adult eyes. We give our kids Speak 'Spells, toys with numbers and letters, everything is for specific learning. I wrote in the other thread about the kindergarten teacher over 20 years ago who even back then had to start teaching kids to crawl over, under, and through things because they were intellectually developed but had not concept of space which begins physically.

I noticed even at a kindergarten level that many children didn't know how to play anymore unless they were reenacting things they had seen, or using toys that told them what to do. It seems that the earliest kind of playing explores on all levels, and is internally directed. The interplay of everything is very rich and varied. You taste, rattle, shake, listen, try and you build a million impressions of the world. You imagine something and you create what you have imagined. The seeds of physics and abstract ideas lie in this. What happens if we overly direct the attention of the young child? What might we lose?

I also remember the documentary about some famous musician who brought people into some kind of barn. He had hung up things that made noises when you struck them and he was running about, an elderly man, banging away at these objects and listening, like a little kid who explores. It seemed important to see this.

The story is far too vast and it's my fault for having opened the door to it. The pencil in hand is quite ok. Not being able to use your body to explore and being drilled, and plunked in front of Sesame Street as a 3 year old, that was the problem. We form our abstract concepts and our ability to perceive such things as shape and direction, through the free physical explorations we do when very small. You were probably given that opportunity. These kids weren't. And maybe you were also precocious. ;D

At this point in time I have raised two sons, following my ideas partly out of necessity, homeschooled for 8 - 11 years, and now have the feedback from the adults. I have tutored children on and off, very often at a moment of crisis at school. But I also taught a young man whose "crisis" it was that he had an independent active mind who was so far ahead of the material that it was ridiculous and he was a pleasure to teach, except that the school curriculum kept getting in the way. I have explored various teaching systems and philosophies for the sake of my children. And finally there is my own learning process which is a puzzlement of its own accord.

I have a feeling that there is something out there that has not yet been explored, or maybe not in the mainstream. This is not a good place to put that idea.

keystring,

I would enjoy speaking with you more about your experiences. Have you had any musical experiences with any of these young people? Have you taught music or an instrument at all? I am just curious.

Thank you for your input so far.

Rich, musically I'm still a student. I would enjoy teaching music some day when I know enough and can do enough, so these topics interest me vividly. Then also, I am on my own musical journey and we "teach ourselves" even when we study with someone because an effort must be made. I've helped musically once or twice, in one single session with someone who asked help with basic things. It doesn't amount to anything yet.

You can't take for granted anything that you would have expected children to be grounded in.

The world is such a mixture of cultures, educational opportunities and deprivations, parenting skills are in a wide range of failure to success as are most relationships, add to that nutrition, and a few other "people makers".

Life experiences in children to the date that we meet them are varied and a mixed experience.

Even though I am familiar with the expectations in our local school districts (not one, but MANY school districts with lots of elementary classes, middle schoolers, and high schoolers, and alternative programs) the students attending these schools are diverse and multifaced, just not in the same way. We've become international, bigtime. This was something I experienced in my early schooling because of the mix of the community from the arrival of people of many other countries.

Some kids have had limitations because of no exposure, other kids have had acceleration because of exposure.

Things missing, hopefully, will roundout before the age of 12, and it is wise for a piano teacher to be familiar with
1) What these missing things might be, and,
2) What the excelling areas are to each child.

Complexity of a sorts, but I don't think we can across the board here in the US, think of all children as prepared for life in the same way.

It is especially important to entertain these questions as to piano study because of the communication and educational content being so important.

The learner's profile is more important than ever.

Betty

In response to Turandot's statement about the piano being "unplugged from the world of today," I'd like to offer a list of things that also do not require electricity:

Football
Jogging
Tennis
Golf
Baseball
Skateboarding
Bicycling
Drinking Beer
Sex

I imagine the piano will die out about the same time those things do. I think we're safe.

Kreisler!

Good to see you. Where you been? What have you been up to?

We need more members like you, so hang around a little more - its been too long!

I stopped by to ask a question about our piano and happened to see this thread.

We got an incredible deal on a very nice, used Kawai US60 for $3K. The kids love it and are learning to play. Yes, this may be a fairly affordable price for many families but you have to consider the cost compared to other instruments. I bought a brand new, imported Telecaster that I consider to be of comparable quality to the piano and it only cost me $150 brand new with gig bag. Well, I did buy a used, Vox tube amp for $200 and a $40 cord. For $500 I have a truly professional playing and sounding guitar rig that weighs in at less than 50 pounds.

Given the price and portability, the guitar is a very compelling choice.

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Betty,

I agree completely. These are wise words.

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Music in general is a great thing, Joe. I have to tell you that two of my most recent grand piano customers are guitarists as well.

Hmmm... maybe there is a correlation.

There must be. A certain Mr Pete T. (Who?) got himself a new concert grand earlier this year.

Well, I bought a guitar although I play bass because it is a blast to play. I bought a piano as well. No matter what instrument one buys, get a decent one.

I think one of the reasons so many children gravitate to video games and TV instead of piano or musical instruments in general is simple availability and exposure. Most kids can get their hands on an XBOX controller much easier than a piano. We have both at our house and although the games get more use the piano is definately getting its share of completely voluntary attention.

In an interview, the great American soprano, Renee Fleming, stated that for her children, learning the piano was "non negotiable".
We certainly need more parents with the educational wisdom of Ms Fleming.

The future of the acoustic piano in the next 50 years will be determined by state of acoustic piano pedagogy today. In China where the vestiges of Confucian thought remain, the value of learning the piano is embraced and China is now the world's leader in the number of pianos produced.

In developed countries, the electronic age has affected attitudes towards the piano and its music. Compared to most other instruments the piano is relatively expensive, piano lessons are costly and electronic media are competing fiercely for what is left from the family budget for music and entertainment.

In the West, where sales of acoustic pianos are in decline, a child's piano education is becoming financially out-of-reach for most families on average incomes. There are also other priorities in a society of changing musical values.

The acoustic piano will have a rosier future if educators can reassess and reaffirm the value of learning the piano. The acoustic piano has the most extensive literature of all the musical instruments and it is the instrument par excellence for learning notation and aquiring insights into the language of music. Every child should have the opportunity to learn the piano.

Good, less expensive pianos are now available and an enlightened attitude shift, which will reaffirm the value of learning the piano, will certainly assure its future.

Best wishes,

Robert.

I'm going to have to add my 2 cents. Sorry, but can't resist.

I don't think kids spend lots of time in front of the TV or video games because such things are more interesting than piano. Kids spend time doing these things because their parents don't want to interact with them. I have spoken to many, many parents who are so grateful for the "modern" toys that entertain their children for hours on end. This allows these parents to do their stuff instead of paying attention to the kids.

When a child takes piano, or any other type of lesson (music or otherwise), it takes not just a commitment of the child's time, but also of the parents' time. When I explain this to parents who are thinking about starting their kids on piano lessons, their reaction is: I don't have time to practice with them. Well, that's ok if the kid is 13 or 14, but not if the kid is 4 or 5.

You can really tell the difference between the kids whose parents are part of their music experience and those kids whose parents are not.

Why I am writing this on this thread? Because an electronic keyboard is perfectly fine for a young child just starting out. Eventually, should their interest grow, they'll want a "real" piano.

I agree that future sales of acoustic pianos will decline. But I feel the biggest reason isn't that other things are so much more attractive, but because so many parents don't want to invest their time in their child's life. "Go play on your Xbox," is much easier than saying "Let's do piano practice together."

And as the number of piano-playing children declines, so too will the number of folks interested in buying pianos.

Personally, I can't understand this way of thinking. What could possibly be more important than spending time with, and developing, our kids?

Though it's discussed a lot here, I can't see how lack of "pricing transparency" could make the piano a thing of the past. In all my years I've never heard a parent say "We were going to get Johnny piano lessons, but then we couldn't understand the industry pricing structure, so we bought him an Xbox instead." Most people first decide to play, then make a budget, look for an instrument in that budget and buy one. (or not) In the end, pianos are like anything else for sale - they sell for what the market bears.

The issue of demand is driven more by culture than the industry, in my opinion.

Acoustic piano sales have declined versus digital over the past 8 years. Two local stores have told me they sell 1/2 digital and 1/2 acoustic.

and that is because digital pianos continue to get better and better for less and less money .... like all electronics.

RachOn,

You are of course correct. The issue of demand is driven more by culture than by the industry itself. However, had you chosen to quote the paragraph from my post that preceded the snippet that you excerpted, you would have quoted:



My business is education. I deal with two kinds of teachers. Those who say the odds are stacked against them by the disinterest in learning manifested in the younger generation and a lack of parental support in fostering the value of education. Valid points for sure, but where do you go from there? The other teacher group strives to find ways to break through the apathy and find a means to communicate via a variety of learning modes. Although there is compromise, at least you can go somewhere from there.

In the US for the first time since statistics have been kept, a generation of young people is entering the work force who have reached a lower level of education than their parents. How do you deal with that? In small steps and with small bites, we focus on what we can do as educators to begin to reverse the trend. We don't simply flail about in the enormity of the problem hurling blame at the parents and kids who have brought us there. We focus first on what WE can control, the changes that WE can realistically accomplish.

This thread is six months old. In the meantime we have had another NAMM show in the US. Though you may be told otherwise, attendance by piano sales professionals was way down. Many displayed pianos were forlorn objects of neglect. Dedicated acoustic piano exhibit space shrank considerably once again. Costs to exhibitors had gone up again. In the midst of this a teacher member of PW asked here if there was a way she might attend NAMM so that she could see the pianos and be more helpful to one of her students seeking her advice to buy a piano. She was told No-No-No for a lot of different reasons, principally that NAMM is an industry show and that business could not be transacted with consumers sharing the floor. Suggestions to distribute complimentary tickets to piano teachers through music teacher professional assocations and to piano majors through local universities with music departments were similarly scorned. In fairness there were some dealers posting who supported bringing a breath of fresh air to the NAMM acoustic piano segment. They represented a minority view.

Is the piano establishment ready to change its ways before shrinkage reaches the point of no return where the stale odor of a dying industry sets in? Let's see.

BTW, you may have never heard of a family that didn't buy Johnny a piano because of the antiquated marketing and pricing, and went on to buy him an Xbox instead. Neither have I. But there are plenty of families with children playing band instruments who considered a piano and piano lessons but were turned off by the marketing and pricing of the instrument and the limited piano literature which most teachers insist on teaching. You see, most kids today don't want to Rach On.

Another important point is that music be made. I'd rather have somebody buy their kids an electronic keyboard for piano lessons than not have the kids do piano lessons at all... Imagine if very high quality keyboards cost $100. How many more kids could start lessons? Rather than having to invest thousands of dollars in a decent piano, the entry cost becomes quite low. With so many more kids starting, eventually that could lead to greater demand for acoustic pianos.

And I agree with Turandot: the single biggest problem in our education system is parents! Even the best teachers have difficulty teaching kids whose parents place no importance on education and no consequences for poor performance at school.

Parents are often the major problem in the education system. It's easier to complain that the teacher is too hard on your kid than it is to take a good, hard, honest look to see if maybe your child is lazy, doesn't care or is a major behavior problem. It's too uncomfortable to look in the mirror and see if they're learning it from you. If teachers in the U.S. didn't get "summers off" the turn over rate in the profession would skyrocket from burnout so quickly. You can't teach someone that doesn't want to learn.

The standardized testing craze is no help either. Too much time has to be spent making sure kids can fill in the proper bubbles with their no. 2 pencils at the exact appropriate grade level while we cut out Art & Music programs because they're "not important" to our childrens' education.