SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter

Posted by: cklavier

SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 01:15 PM

Hello everyone.

I'm new here and am very grateful for this forum.
After a couple months of research (Larry Fine's Piano Book, Piano World, talking with friends/family) I have narrowed down to a few brands and wanted to get your input on how to proceed.

I first saw the Yamaha T-118 and was decently impressed by its clarity and touch.

The second piano I saw was an Essex 123, which was about the same price as the Yamaha. It was also decent and, the salesperson told me it is quickly becoming their best-selling piano.

I finally played a Charles Walter and was more impressed by the cabinet than I was the feel and sound, but it was OK, too. It had a decent amount of depth.

Any thoughts on which piano to gravitate to and why? I've budgeted around $5,000 and not too much more. Thanks for your help!

I'd appreciate it if you would not suggest other pianos to try out as these are the 3 brands I would like to focus on.
Posted by: paulmarcus

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 02:47 PM

I have not played the Charles Walter, but hear they're nice pianos. I have played the Essex 123.. in fact, just today between tuning appts I stopped in to see the Bechstein dealer and right next to the Bechstein 190 sat an Essex 123. Naturally I played both. I was very impressed with the Essex. For a $5,000 piano I thought it played as well as any Yamaha U series.

I am fond of the Steinway products as I studied for 10 years on Steinway. The Essex uprights are 100% Steinway's design and uses Steinway's patents, but is manufactured by Pearl River. You still get Steinway's full warranty though.

I personally like the Essex, but you'd probably be happy with either.
Posted by: Diaphragmatic

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 05:18 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by cklavier:
Hello everyone.

I'm new here and am very grateful for this forum.
After a couple months of research (Larry Fine's Piano Book, Piano World, talking with friends/family) I have narrowed down to a few brands and wanted to get your input on how to proceed.

I first saw the Yamaha T-118 and was decently impressed by its clarity and touch.

The second piano I saw was an Essex 123, which was about the same price as the Yamaha. It was also decent and, the salesperson told me it is quickly becoming their best-selling piano.

I finally played a Charles Walter and was more impressed by the cabinet than I was the feel and sound, but it was OK, too. It had a decent amount of depth.

Any thoughts on which piano to gravitate to and why? I've budgeted around $5,000 and not too much more. Thanks for your help!

I'd appreciate it if you would not suggest other pianos to try out as these are the 3 brands I would like to focus on. [/b]
The Essex 123 has a full, clear tone and even scale, especially when considering its an 48" upright.

It's my favorite vertical in the Essex line.

and BTW, ~5,000 is an excellent price for that piano.

I have had many families choose Essex over the U series Yamaha's and K series Kawai's even though they do not compete in the same price point.

A Steinway designed product is a solid choice.
Posted by: mahermusic

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 05:39 PM

I believe the Charles Walter is in a different tier than both the Yamaha and Essex in Larry Fine's Piano Book, being in the higher Tier 2.

Also, the Walter will have no particle board in its construction, as you saw when you referenced the cabinet quality, as well as individually weighted keys, and exceptional tuning stability.

Also, unlike the other two models you mentioned, the Walter family handcrafts each piano in their factory in Elkhart, Indiana, and places a 12-year FULL warranty on it. Only a few piano manufacturers give a full warranty with their piano... and Walter is one of them.

Now.... can you get a Walter for $5,000? That may be tough. Are you being offered the chance to purchase a brand new Walter at $5,000? I would say grab it without hesitation.

Disclaimer - I own a Walter... and LOVE it! Good luck!
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 05:43 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by cklavier:
Hello everyone.

I'm new here and am very grateful for this forum.
After a couple months of research (Larry Fine's Piano Book, Piano World, talking with friends/family) I have narrowed down to a few brands and wanted to get your input on how to proceed.

I first saw the Yamaha T-118 and was decently impressed by its clarity and touch.

The second piano I saw was an Essex 123, which was about the same price as the Yamaha. It was also decent and, the salesperson told me it is quickly becoming their best-selling piano.

I finally played a Charles Walter and was more impressed by the cabinet than I was the feel and sound, but it was OK, too. It had a decent amount of depth.

Any thoughts on which piano to gravitate to and why? I've budgeted around $5,000 and not too much more. Thanks for your help!

I'd appreciate it if you would not suggest other pianos to try out as these are the 3 brands I would like to focus on. [/b]
I won't suggest other pianos, but I would question your process of paring your list to three. From the way you describe it, it seems that you arrived at these three after reading Fine, reading this forum, and talking to other people.......no mention of auditioning a bunch of pianos with your own fingers and ears.

If that is true, I think you have probably ruled out pianos that you might like better.

One comment on design. In this price range, who designed the thing is not of overriding importance. Think designer perfumes. The designer's name is all over the packaging, but the fragrance inside tells the tale.
Posted by: paulmarcus

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 08:22 PM

Bad analogy.
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 08:49 PM

 Quote:
Bad analogy.
You're probably right, Marcus.
Stinky actually \:D , but I try to stay away from the car analogies.

Let me phrase it without an analogy. A low-priced piano is not likely to be a technical tour de force. Design is the result of compromises to deliver a product that can compete well at the desired pricepoint with the desired margin. I'm not referring at all to Charles Walter pianos since their intended price is far higher than 5k, and if they are really selling at 5k, it's not by design.

In that connection, let me ask you a question about your statement......

 Quote:
The Essex uprights are 100% Steinway's design and uses Steinway's patents, but is manufactured by Pearl River.
What application of exclusive Steinway patents to the Essex verticals makes them unique from their humble Pearl River cousins?
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 08:54 PM

CW
Posted by: Norbert

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 08:56 PM

If you ever come across this one, try this 49" beaut.

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/IMG_2289.jpg

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/IMG_2292.jpg

In your particular price range and coming with adustable real leather bench, I have played no better piano,now,20 or 40 years ago.

"Norbert"

http://www.brodmann-pianos.com/upright_piano_123m.html?&L=1%20%5BBOE%3A%20Vir

Available only in high gloss mahagony. \:o

The only reluctance I have to post this here is that now all the other Brodmann dealers are running off like crazy starting to order this particular 49" somewhat hidden gem among all the Brodmann uprights

It's one piano at a price that could help explain the current economic trouble we're in.

Raise its price to at least $ 10,000 - and all will be o.k. again.

Hopefully.....

Norbert ;\)
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 10:19 PM

You are considering good pianos, cklavier. What prices are you getting on each piano? Which seems best built to you? What do you feel most comfortable with?
Posted by: Beacon Chris

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 10:29 PM

Hey Pianomadam,

did you forget to go over to the other IP address and post as cklavier? Oops!!! I wonder if the moderator is catching this!
Posted by: Beacon Chris

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 10:32 PM

Ah!

You just edited the post! Rascal.

BC
Posted by: DanLaura Larson

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 11:01 PM

Oh my gosh, that is too funny Beacon. \:D
Posted by: Beacon Chris

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 11:06 PM

DanLaura,

Did you see that too? I tried to use the quote button and save the whole thing but it was already edited. I'm not good with the quotes.

I did manage the copy & paste function on my own computer and this is what she wrote:


"Thank you everybody! The Walter is the one piano I have not tried yet and, if they are not available for less than $5,000 I guess I'll scratch that! I'm leaning a little more to the Essex given the Steinway pedigree. I know there is a lot of debate around here about the Steinway-designed thing, but I think it's overblown a little! Can anybody tell me a little more about their impressions of the t-116?

--------------------
PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer"


BC \:D \:D \:D
Posted by: Catlady

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 11:08 PM

Hey Chris!
Isn't it past your bedtime???
Posted by: Beacon Chris

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 11:13 PM

I'm just catching up with some of those "liars & Cheats" !!!!!

BC ;\)
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 11:14 PM

Chris,

I don't understand (and I desperately want to \:D ).

Did a post appear addressed to cklavier that was from cklavier?
Posted by: Beacon Chris

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 11:21 PM

T,

Pianomadam's most recent post contained this text when I came to the the thread:

Thank you everybody! The Walter is the one piano I have not tried yet and, if they are not available for less than $5,000 I guess I'll scratch that! I'm leaning a little more to the Essex given the Steinway pedigree. I know there is a lot of debate around here about the Steinway-designed thing, but I think it's overblown a little! Can anybody tell me a little more about their impressions of the t-116?

--------------------
PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

I copied the thread because I realized that she obviously posts as this thread starter and her intentions were to post the above post as cklavier - however, she was signed in as Pianomadam so she saw her error and quickly edited before I could use and figure out the quote function (I still don't know how). I had, however, saved her original post!

Understand?

BC
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 11:24 PM

Oh man! I'm reminded of those Southwest Airline commericals...."wanna get away?" Too funny!!!!!
Posted by: Beacon Chris

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 11:25 PM

I can't believe I was on here just as it was happening. Frankly, I've been suspect of all these Essex threads lately!

BC
Posted by: Catlady

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 11:26 PM

OMG!!! \:D
I was thinking the exact same thing!
Posted by: Beacon Chris

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 11:30 PM

I think we scared her away for the night.

COME BACK TO US, PIANOMADAM!!

BC ;\)
Posted by: DarkGreenChocolate

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/12/09 11:31 PM

IMHO, two silly things have been said so far.

1) Why ask for advice and then say you're not interested in a full range of suggestions? More to the point, why on earth would you limit a search to three brands? Particularly if you live in Philly, you have an embarrassment of riches, potentially, to choose from, and the biggest mistake you can make, it seems to me, would be over-selectivity/prejudice.

2) The Essex has about as much in common with the Steinway as a Pontiac Vibe (Toyota Matrix) does with a Chevy Tahoe--maybe less. Did Steinway "design" it? I don't know what that means. What I do know is that it plays suspiciously like a Pearl River, and nothing at all like a Steinway. Does that make it a bad choice? Not necessarily. But keep it real, please. Maybe the warranty, "trade-up" policy, dealer network, etc. make the Essex worthwhile for some people, but don't kid yourself--it is NOT, in any meaningful way, a Steinway.

I've never seen or played a Charles Walter, but I've found, empirically, that hand-built pianos tend to be superior to mass-produced ones, and I feel, non-empirically, that it's awfully nice to support a small, independent, and/or American company whenever possible. That's not in any way a statement against Asian businesses, but simply a recognition that American piano companies are a seriously endangered species.
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 12:15 AM

Wow
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 12:26 AM

Chocolate,

Don't get hung up on the props...... be they Walter, Essex or Yamaha. This was simply great theater, to be savored like a last row seat at the Wiener Volksoper. \:D

Just think of the effort, emotion, and desperation that goes into this kind of dialogue with one's inner being.
Posted by: Diaphragmatic

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 12:37 AM

not a good time to shpeeel
Posted by: Diaphragmatic

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 12:44 AM

not a good time to shpeeel..
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 01:07 AM

Good call Jonathan. I read the "shpeeel" and pushed the post button to respond. When the reply box came up, poof....the spiel was gone. \:D

Props to you for posting in your own name with complete affiliation. Keep your cool and you can offset any collateral damage and embarrassment caused by others who claim to represent the same company that you do. Oh....and about those talking points... :
Posted by: Furtwangler

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 01:10 AM

This is really hilarious.

So not only is she an idiot, but she is dishonest to boot. Gee, who woulda thought?

Another nail in the coffin.

Good catch, Chris.
Posted by: Bear 1

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 01:22 AM

Chris,

You da man! \:\)

Bear
Posted by: paulmarcus

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 10:19 AM

turandot,

My ambition to say as little as possible to keep emotions down has failed. I certainly don't claim to know everything, but I do try to only convey my opinion or facts that I'm aware of. Most of what I conveyed comes right out of Steinway's marketing DVD... and my local Steinway dealer. However, I have played both Essex and Pearl River and it's not a fair comparison.

To answer your question.. I'm not sure exactly what patents in particular they're using although I would imagine many. For instance in action design, soundboard, scale, plate, etc. It is common knowledge that chinesse labor is rediculously cheap. Else why are so many major piano manufacturers creating pianos and using chinesse labor to assemble them? Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not know of a chinesse piano manufacturer that's building pianos by hand. It is basically an assembled piano contracted by another company.

Look at Renner for example. Many piano companies have Renner make an action specific to their application for their piano. Because Renner is in the business of making actions. The chinesse are in the business of assembling pianos.

The Essex may be a "cookie-cutter" piano, but the cookie-cutter came from Steinway. Another clarification.. only the verticals and 5'1" grand are contracted by Pearl River. All the other Essex's are being contracted by Young Chang. The only concern I would have personally is the quality of assembly by the chinesse. However, since it is warrantied by Steinway there should be some peace of mind.

There are some companies that don't design the product at all I know. They simply have an already manufactured product put a different name on it and pass it off as a new product. Personally I think is marketing fraud. I'm not aware of which or if any piano companies are doing that, but Steinway is not. In fact, all the new Essex for 2009 are now going to bear the "designed by Steinway" right on the fallboard.

How much design is Steinway's? How many patents? I don't know. This is a good question for me to ask my dealer next time I'm in.

Any further insight is welcome. I'm not here to be right.. only trying to help and share my opinion.
Posted by: mdsdurango

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 10:33 AM

I've read and re-read this thread and so have an idea of what happened with pianomadam and her shenanigans but can not be certain. Can those of you in the know please explain exactly what occured.

And what is shpeeel?

Mike
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 10:38 AM

 Quote:
Any further insight is welcome. I'm not here to be right.. only trying to help and share my opinion.
Me to, Marcus. I actually like the tone of the Essex, and have said that in this forum more than once. The clean forward tone is more pleasing to me than the tone of the Boston. Of course that's subjective, but I'm on record here for never knocking the Essex PIANO.

This however is not the place to debate the Essex since apparently the OP was only our beloved pianomadam asking a phony question with a phony name to prop up (of all things) the ESSEX.

I do think there is a danger when you might influence a potential buyer here with the 'knowledge' you glean from a company DVD. That 'knowledge' is all-too-readily available at the shop. When a member asks for advice in this forum, they are hoping to get beneath that surface veneer.

As far as I know, all Steinway patents expired decades ago. Any design element they offer is freely available to any other maker who would like to incorporate it into his own design. I have often read here as well that Steinway does not employ any designers and has not employed any designers for decades. I don't know if that's true, but on the occasions when it was stated, it was never challenged.
Posted by: Genaa

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 11:16 AM

mdsdurango, this is what happened as I make it out....

it seems pianomadam posted the original thread starter 'pretending' to be someone interested in choosing between these 3 pianos... she then let a few replies trickle in from folks before 'replying' using her 'pianomadam' login to indicate she felt all were good choices but that the Essex was particularly 'neato'..

Beacon Chris however noticed a reply she had posted intending it to be from the OP 'CKlavier' thanking people for their advice and stating he was leaning towards the Essex...but she did so on the wrong IP address and login and quickly removed the post with the intention of re-posting it as CKlavier, but not quick enough as Chris not only saw it but managed to cut and paste it into a reply he was writing.... heheh - caught in the act \:\) marvellous - good spot to Chris ;\) more more!!
Posted by: mdsdurango

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 11:27 AM

So pianomadam - not too smart on two counts;
In the opening posts cklivier (aka pianomadam) writes: "I finally played a Charles Walter and was more impressed by the cabinet than I was the feel and sound, but it was OK, too. It had a decent amount of depth."
In pianomadams (aka cklivier) original post (copied and pasted by Beacon Cris) she writes: "Thank you everybody! The Walter is the one piano I have not tried yet and, if they are not available for less than $5,000 I guess I'll scratch that!"

Proves that nobody is a good enough liar to keep their stories straight.
Suppose we will ever see pianomadam again?

Mike
Posted by: DanLaura Larson

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 11:37 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mdsdurango:

Suppose we will ever see pianomadam again?

Mike [/b]
Well since she likes to create psuedonymous posters I'm sure she will be around in some form. The sock puppet show would lose dynamics and texture without her here.

Dan
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 11:56 AM

anyone who is not impressed with the CW doesn't know how to play very well.
Posted by: mdsdurango

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 11:59 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
anyone who is not impressed with the CW doesn't know how to play very well. [/b]
That would be me, although I've yet to play a Walter.

I can play a rousing version of "She'll be Comin round the Mountain" though! It sounds real good on my S6!

Mike
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 12:15 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Beacon Chris:
I can't believe I was on here just as it was happening. Frankly, I've been suspect of all these Essex threads lately!

BC [/b]
Hey, BC. I just wanted to say that my Essex thread, despite any can of worms it may have opened, had absolutely NOTHING to do with pianomadam. ;\)
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 12:24 PM

Posted by: Avantgardenabi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 12:34 PM

When some Canadian and American piano professionals wished me to get my "butt" sued, I realized many things about some of piano professionals and their mentality... \:\(

I am sure Pianomadam was quite desperate, however, given today's economy...
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 12:38 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Avantgardenabi:
When some Canadian and American piano professionals wished me to get my "butt" sued, I realized may things about some of piano professionals and their mentality... \:\(

I am sure Pianomadam was quite desperate, however, given today's economy... [/b]
For the record Avantgardenabi is not referring to me.
Posted by: Avantgardenabi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 12:39 PM

Of course, not you, Rod! \:\)
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 04:07 PM

heh
Posted by: windsound

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 05:17 PM

Sorry to say but this is a pretty bad joke to advertise a low-end brand like Essex this way.
Posted by: DanLaura Larson

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 06:07 PM

What's even sorrier is that it wasn't a joke.
Posted by: DarkGreenChocolate

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 08:50 PM

I've actually HAD a last-row seat at the Wiener Volksoper! Don Giovanni--what a show!

And here I was, worried I'd been too harsh in my post...

Sometimes I think I've gotten too immersed in this website, and then this kind of thing goes on, apparently demonstrating that some others are far, far more over-invested...
Posted by: Beacon Chris

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 09:25 PM

DGC,

The Wiener's can keep their Volksoper! My "il mio tesoro" was not exactly what they were looking for in my last audition. Seems they preferred Ottavio a slight bit "taller" and more "handsome". My wife begged to differ.

Go a little easier on yourself. You can never be too immersed in PW ;\)

BC
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 09:41 PM

 Quote:
The Wiener's can keep their Volksoper! My "il mio tesoro" was not exactly what they were looking for in my last audition.
OTOH, Chris, you landed the Osmin role in Madam's production of The Abduction From the Seraglio. They can't take that away from you.
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 10:24 PM

OK, here it is: I screwed up royally! My apologies to all on this forum. I'm ashamed and appalled at the lengths I saw myself go to. I let the anonymity get the best of me. I hope I can gain your forgiveness now or sometime in the future. I do value this site and assume there will be months of scourging I will be going through for any post I put on this forum in the future, but those are the consequences I'm willing to take on.

My apologies to Steinway & Sons, those that represent the Steinway & Sons Family of Pianos, and all piano professionals for my example.

That's all for now...
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 11:02 PM

Madam,

My hope is that there is no scourging. I don't think you set an example. I'm sure it's been done countless times before.

Stepping up and apologizing may have set an example though. I'd wager that's been done rarely, if at all here. Very gutsy move! It should make anyone who intends to ridicule you think twice before doing it.
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/13/09 11:07 PM

oh.. don't worry. lots of dealers do that stuff.
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 12:21 AM

nm
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 01:12 AM

It takes guts to write what you did even if we don't know who you are.

From what I understand,
what you have done has been done by others.

Perhaps an apology to Yamaha and Charles Walter would have also been in order.

Posted by: Furtwangler

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 01:21 AM

Madam

I must say I am quite surprised and very impressed with your apology. How about a fresh start?
Posted by: Beacon Chris

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 07:03 AM

Madam,

Disclosing your true identity and posting that way from now on would give you instant credibility here.

Try it - I think you would like it...

By the way, if you feel the urge to develop a multiple personality disorder again, have a Gianni Schicchi moment, i.e. something funny. (that was for you, Turandot)

Best to you,

BC
Posted by: schwammerl

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 09:59 AM

Madam,

A testimony of great courage.
Above all keep on posting while preserving your own opinions and personality.

schwammerl.
Posted by: mdsdurango

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 10:13 AM

Likewise Madam,
I was surprised to see you post and impressed to see your apology.

Keep your head on your shoulders and above water and you will be fine. Remember; "There can be no friendship without confidence; and no confidence, without integrity".

Lost for a moment but not gone as evidenced by your actions.
I agree with Beacon Cris that more info of who you really are in your signiture line would be appropriate.

Mike
Posted by: JF

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 12:35 PM

I'm new to the board; are things always this exciting? Double agents, smart detectives, international intrigue.....

Word to the wise: IP addresses are trackable; nobody is totally anonymous on the internet.
Posted by: POTUS

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 12:51 PM

I'm new here as well, thinking I could get a little bit more honest information than I seemed to get when shopping for a new piano.

Now I see that we're forced to be extremely skeptical even on a forum of piano lovers. And when someone is caught red handed and belatedly admits the obvious, it's considered "a testimony of great courage"?

Maybe others have more time to sift through the it all and figure out what is truthful here, but I think it'd be more helpful to the rest of us if this sort of thing was policed by the moderators and the related parties banned.

And for the record, I recently bought an Essex 123 and so far so good. And the response on page 1 that $5000 is an excellent price..I paid a lot less. But at least I know that post was by a "sales professional", so it can be read in the appropriate context.
Posted by: mdsdurango

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 01:05 PM

You make a good point POTUS, however as you can see even a "banned" participant of these forums can become - someone else. So I think that giving the offending party a good spanking, which was completed (I think) in her capture, and allowing her to continue to post as we all already know her is a far better option than her resurection as someone else.

This really is a "fair and balanced" community of piano lovers, and the forum does a pretty good job of self policing (as you've just witnessed). Please stick around and I am certain you will see for yourself, and enjoy the program.

Mike

PS, Congratulations on your new piano purchase.
Posted by: windsound

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 01:06 PM

I think the fair price range for an Essex 123 is $3000~$3500.

A Yamaha U1 is usually around $6000~$6500.

Better brand is priced higher.
Posted by: Monica K.

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 02:34 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by POTUS:
Now I see that we're forced to be extremely skeptical even on a forum of piano lovers. And when someone is caught red handed and belatedly admits the obvious, it's considered "a testimony of great courage"?

Maybe others have more time to sift through the it all and figure out what is truthful here, but I think it'd be more helpful to the rest of us if this sort of thing was policed by the moderators and the related parties banned.
[/b]
I tend to side with POTUS on this one. Pardon me if I don't get caught up in the Pianomadam lovefest. She apologized only because she got caught. Who knows how often she's pulled this stunt in the past, and who knows how often she'll pull it again in the future. I agree with you, Mike, that we have no way of ensuring that she wouldn't just re-register under a new alias if she were banned... but I think that knowingly allowing her to continue posting is an even worse alternative.

Not having any kind of consequence for this kind of misbehavior sends the wrong message, imo.
Of course, this is just my opinion; ultimately it's Frank's and/or Ken's judgment call to make.
Posted by: lilylady

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 02:41 PM

And is 'she' even a 'she'?

Sorry PianoMadam, but once caught, it is now hard for me to believe anything that you have written. You have not stated your name nor where you are located etc, which I believe most every honest dealer does here.

I appreciate your apology, but don't appreciate being 'dooped' by anyone - nor the games. Luckily you were caught. As a consumer, I really, really want to believe what my salesman tells me. You have lost your credibility with this outrageous game you played..

I would think that Steinway would be quite embarassed with this public display.

I may forgive but it is hard to forget.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 02:53 PM

If Pianomadam, aka 'clavier' would have heeded my advice and gotten herself a Brodman in the first place, she wouldn't have to apologize to anyone.

Just thank Brodmann, or me...

Norbert \:D
Posted by: Sir Lurksalot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 02:59 PM

What's so courageous about an anonymous apology? If we knew the person's name and store, I would be impressed. Heck, as far as we know, pianomadam could be a Steinway competitor who's trying to make Steinway salesmen appear to be super-sneaky. (Of course that would be pretty impressive, if only for its deviousness).
Posted by: DanLaura Larson

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 03:10 PM

The fact that Pianomadam posts without disclosing her/his identity or store name and location says more negative than an anonymous apology after getting caught.

Dan
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 03:16 PM

nm
Posted by: Bear 1

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 04:08 PM

Pianomadam gets caught with her pants down and some folks want to kiss both cheeks. No Thanks ..
No apology from an anonymous avatar will do.
Wonder how many more avatars she uses?
She now shows her location as Southern United States instead of Northeast USA ...
Did she move her store? Full disclosure please.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 04:10 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Monica K.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by POTUS:
Now I see that we're forced to be extremely skeptical even on a forum of piano lovers. And when someone is caught red handed and belatedly admits the obvious, it's considered "a testimony of great courage"?

Maybe others have more time to sift through the it all and figure out what is truthful here, but I think it'd be more helpful to the rest of us if this sort of thing was policed by the moderators and the related parties banned.
[/b]
I tend to side with POTUS on this one. Pardon me if I don't get caught up in the Pianomadam lovefest. She apologized only because she got caught. Who knows how often she's pulled this stunt in the past, and who knows how often she'll pull it again in the future. I agree with you, Mike, that we have no way of ensuring that she wouldn't just re-register under a new alias if she were banned... but I think that knowingly allowing her to continue posting is an even worse alternative.

Not having any kind of consequence for this kind of misbehavior sends the wrong message, imo.
Of course, this is just my opinion; ultimately it's Frank's and/or Ken's judgment call to make. [/b]
I'm with POTUS and Monica.

Pianomadam has pushed the envelop many times before. This latest fraud exposes her (or him) and shows her true colors.

Praising her for apologizing after being caught is enabling.
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 04:19 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Rod Verhnjak:


Perhaps an apology to Yamaha and Charles Walter would have also been in order.
[/b]
Still waiting.
Don't tell me you are not reading this cause I won't believe you

I agree with the full disclosure of who you are.
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 04:20 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bear 1:
Pianomadam gets caught with her pants down and some folks want to kiss both cheeks. No Thanks ..
No apology from an anonymous avatar will do.
Wonder how many more avatars she uses?
She now shows her location as Southern United States instead of Northeast USA ...
Did she move her store? Full disclosure please. [/b]
I think she said something about the move a while back...could be a load of ****, I don't know. I'm willing to see if she can come clean about her identity and location. And if she doesn't, both of my above posts will disappear.

[edit]Above posts have disappeared anyway.
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 04:40 PM

 Quote:
originally posted by Monica K
Pardon me if I don't get caught up in the Pianomadam lovefest.
Expressing a wish that pianomadam not be pursued and heckled here on this forum and that her apology be accepted as genuine and that she given a second chance is not a lovefest. [/b]

If you want to express a different opinion, go ahead. But you don't need to ridicule the opposing opinion to do that.
Posted by: FogVilleLad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 05:23 PM

I'm in the Monica, lilylady, Bear, and Steve C. camp. Disclosure after discovery - so what.

Personal opinion: suspension + disclosure of true trade affiliation.
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 05:42 PM

I'm not joining the easy apology side either. Saying this is not the same thing as heckling. She has been shilling outrageously for Steinway and all of those fabulous and incredible Steinway-designed products for as long as she has been here. Anyone with a decent grasp of the search function can verify that. Now she has been caught using a sock to peddle and puff Essex. Geez.

OK she apologized. Fine. Embarrassment is a great motive for that. And getting caught in the act brooks no weaseling. It warrants no group hug. Whatever tiny bit of credibility she might have had should be shredded. The problem, of course, is that a shill can always return to influence people who have no history here, but who are looking to this group for help.

It's a constant problem, I know, and she is surely not the only dealer ever to behave in this fashion. That likely fact warrants no group hug either.
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 05:47 PM

Oh .... and thanks to Beacon Chris! I don't think anyone has ever caught somebody with their proverbial pants down so neatly.
Posted by: mdsdurango

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 06:04 PM

Truth is that unless we get to know who pianomadam (or pianomister) really is nobody is going to hear her (or him) out anyway.
Furthering the same truth; even if he/she does come clean his/her posts will be highly scrutinized, filleted, laid open, and most probably dismissed.
So - why ban? She's all but excommunicated anyway.
And I agree with lillylady that pianomadams behavior is, or should be a disgrace to Steinway. It's they who should have her banned!

Mike


(edited for grammar violations)
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 06:11 PM

So now we have 'enabling', 'camp', and 'group hug' to go with 'lovefest'.

I don't think any groups, camps, or the like have met to form a collective opinion. People are saying what they personally feel. Why label opinions as some sort of collective mentality?

In my post I was responding to pianomadam directly and personally. I've seldom been bothered by what she has to say. I've noticed that she keeps her cool when those coming down on her hard get very personal. I suppose I took that into account when I posted, but I was hardly deliberating as if PW was some perfect world where she had violated a sacred principle never violated by others. Give me a break! \:D

Anyway, it's my opinion. I'm not a moderator, a wannabe moderator, or trying to influence anyone else. While I can certainly respect and understand other INDIVIDUAL opinions. I simply wanted pianomadam to know that I sensed her embarrassment and remorse and wished her a speedy rehabilitation free of any scourging.

I would certainly hope that those who run this place don't need some kind of opinion poll or demonstration of a collective will to know how to enforce their own standards.
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 06:19 PM

What? You don't like "group hug?" It's such a "nice" term. \:D
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 06:27 PM

Nah!!! Get away from me. \:D
Posted by: mdsdurango

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 06:41 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
Nah!!! Get away from me. \:D [/b]
Always the rational one - turandot.
Posted by: Bear 1

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 06:54 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
Nah!!! Get away from me. \:D [/b]
Just turn the other cheek .. \:D
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 07:16 PM

Perhaps I'm pushing it a bit but sure makes posts like this seem suspicious when it's one of the first posts made by L1037
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/21749.html

I guess this is what people will think when someone gets caught, faking it.
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 07:23 PM

Hey, I thought that one was bogus the moment I saw it. Could always be wrong, of course, but so many of them had red flags waving in the wind.
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 07:25 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Hey, I thought that one was bogus the moment I saw it. Could always be wrong, of course, but so many of them had red flags waving in the wind. [/b]
I hadn't seen it, but I agree when I see it now. The OP's first (or nearly the first) post and Pianomadam all over in the subsequent responses... :rolleyes:
Posted by: Monica K.

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 07:32 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mdsdurango:
Truth is that unless we get to know who pianomadam (or pianomister) really is nobody is going to hear her (or him) out anyway.
Furthering the same truth; even if he/she does come clean his/her posts will be highly scrutinized, filleted, laid open, and most probably dismissed.
So - why ban? She's all but excommunicated anyway.
And I agree with lillylady that pianomadams behavior is, or should be a disgrace to Steinway. It's they who should have her banned!

Mike
[/b]
I agree with all that you've said here, Mike; pianomadam's not-so-great credibility to begin with is now essentially zip. But I still think she should be banned, or perhaps put in Frank's infamous time-out chair for a nice long spell, simply to reinforce the message that this kind of trickery is unacceptable at PW. To have no sanction at all is tantamount to saying "anything goes, as long as you apologize if you get caught."

I'm sure there are some Steinway execs reading this thread. I'd love to be a fly on the wall during their discussions about it. \:D
Posted by: honkytonk

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 07:39 PM

Now this is the Pianoworld I remember ;\)

I remember when Pianomadam first posted as JordanKittsGuy

It didn't take long for Him (Her?) to realize that this was not a good way to remain anonymous and all of his posts were quickly deleted. Since then this person has posted using many different sockpuppets.

PS - Hi everyone, have you missed me?
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 07:40 PM

there would be quite a few banned posters if everyone who has fished under a pseudonym was outed.
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 07:46 PM

Well then, let's get to it. \:D

C'mon, Monica makes a good point.
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 07:49 PM

i don't know.. there seems to be quite a few pianodads out there.
Posted by: Monica K.

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 07:50 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by honkytonk:

PS - Hi everyone, have you missed me? [/b]
Good to see you back, honky!
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 07:57 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
i don't know.. there seems to be quite a few pianodads out there. [/b]
Ooooh, if I used a sock I would be much more inventive than that!
Posted by: FogVilleLad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 07:59 PM

Monica K. posted,
 Quote:
To have no sanction at all is tantamount to saying 'anything goes, as long as you apologize if you get caught'.
+1
Posted by: mdsdurango

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 08:17 PM

Another consequence of this thread (btw - Hey Honky!) is that from here forth almost all Essex threads will be read with a great deal of scepticism.
How will Essex pianos or posters be portrayed, supported or defended?
Jman, suppose he was one of pianomadams incarnations? There are a few others on board right now hard pushing Boston and Essex. What is their credibility?
In fact, look at the first three posts on this thread! It's possible that we have a "multiple personality disorder" on our hands.

There is a stain here that will not wash out simply.


Edit; Sorry Jonathan Hunt, it appears you are ligit.

"Musically Yours,
Jonathan Hunt

Sales Professional:
Steinway, Boston, Essex, Kohler & Campbell

The Music Gallery
Clearwater, Fl."
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 08:37 PM

Ken Knapp,

Can you check L1037 IP address and compare it to pianomadam and her socks?
Posted by: DanLaura Larson

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 08:49 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mdsdurango:

Jman, suppose he was one of pianomadams incarnations? [/b]
I've been wondering this all along. jman37 and L1037 making similar threads to compare Essex with competitors and Boston with Kawai and Yamaha while trashing the competition. Then Pianomadam tag teaming with them.

Dan
Posted by: paulmarcus

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 09:17 PM

...
Posted by: mdsdurango

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/14/09 09:30 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by paulmarcus:
... [/b]
I am not on a witch hunt paulmarcus.
I did not mean to offend.
You should feel free to speak.

Mike
Posted by: Jolly

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 12:32 AM

Only one appropriate response for these shenanigans...from He Who Must Not Be Named:
Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!![/b]
Posted by: Jolly

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 12:37 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
there would be quite a few banned posters if everyone who has fished under a pseudonym was outed. [/b]
Then ban them.

I'm not big on socks, never have been. Some are ok if they're funny, but this is not a general chat type forum...people are spending hard-earned money on the things they read here.

We may not always be right in our opinions, but let them be honest ones.
Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 02:42 AM

Can sporadically planted postings have a short term effect at all for a dealer? How could sparse plantings help close a sale?

I suspect therefore that such postings are necessarily planted in systematic ways. Only then can such plantings influence buying behavior.

Pianomadam said she screwed up royally. Other perpetrators don't screw up royally. That's the only difference.

In other words, I would expect to find IP clusters of similar plantings.
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 07:23 AM

Are you a little lost lamb who wandered over here from the ABF? Maybe you're thinking of buying a piano? Let this thread be a warning to you--like a bloody head on a stick sharpened at both ends. You've crossed into savage country now. This is where Satan's dearest spawn, piano salesmen, hang their chain saws and hockey masks when they're not butchering little lambs like you.

You see, piano salesmen aren't born and suckled by loving mothers as you and me are, in nurseries with teddy bear wallpaper and squishy-squeaky toys. No. They grow from airborne spores that land in dank corners and suck blood from unsuspecting creatures that happen upon them. Some of these spores become politicians, others become investment bankers, but those that land in the darkest, dankest, and vilest corners become piano salesmen. There they learn dark arts, like shape shifting and IP manipulation, that let them become whoever they want, all the better to entice then squeeze their prey.

Tomorrow we may learn Piano Madam actually sells Walters and Yamahas and fabricated this whole ruse to discredit Essex. We don't know. This is Piano Land! There's no truth, only an eternity of loose tuning pins and cracked sound boards if we listen to the wrong lies.

Sometimes I wish I'd taken up the ukulele.
Posted by: JF

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 07:23 AM

Although I'm brand new on this board, honestly, I think that for me to continue to have faith in the content here, I am going to want to hear from the administrators on these issues.

Have you all investigated this type of behavior? Have you all known, prior to pianomadam's "outing," that this type of behavior was going on? Have you any plans to now investigate, with the goal of stopping this type of behavior? Have you/will you investigate "clusters" of IP addresses organized to promote a particular brand or bash another?

People generally trust what they read here (I know I do/did), and it would be a shame to lose that trust. If we can't trust a poster's advice or impressions on a brand, this board quickly becomes irrelevant.

I know you can't absolutely prevent this behavior, but I would like to know there is an effort...

Just .02 from a newbie......

--
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 07:34 AM

Unfortunately, there have been others who have used socks for 'business purposes' and who have lived to tell the tale. Just ask fathertopianist about the one he caught and publicly outed (though this abuser may have had other socks as well). FTP's discovery was well-sleuthed as opposed to BC's accidental but spectacular discovery.

I would have no objection to an enforced policy that you will be banned if the moderators (or Frank) have good evidence that you are using a sock .... banned after you are first drawn and quartered publicly. ;\)

We all know that people can reappear in different incarnations, though it does impose some costs on them to manipulate their IP addresses.

I would support this banning policy even though the bad PR (of the sort this thread is generating) is another deterrent to sock behavior. The individual needs a punishment as well as the firm they represent.

I cannot imagine that Steinway enjoys the notoriety that this caught-red-handed act of blatant (and false) puffery has brought to their family of pianos. Unlike another recent and controversial internet poster-dealer, who some argued benefitted from all publicity, Steinway is unlikely to feel that bad publicity is just another form of publicity. They have a well cultivated reputation to protect.
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 07:42 AM

Oh, another note ....

Perhaps a moderator could go in and edit the first post and the thread title so that no unsuspecting person who stumbles on it thinks this is genuine information about Charles Walter, Essex and Yamaha if they happen to stop reading prematurely.

This thread could then become part of the forum's FAQ section (when such is built) as a permanent warning to casual researchers of "what happens out there."
Posted by: JF

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 07:56 AM

Well, I am now looking at other threads a bit askance. For instance, there has been a large chunk of Kawai "love" here recently. We have people buying Kawai grands all over the place, people talking about how it is the best piano ever, nothing to bash about it, and how it's just overall "the best."

Now I'm wondering if all/none/some of them are "real." This is not meant to offend any of the people who are posting about their new pianos, because I hate to cloud a moment of joy with cynicism. I wouldn't want people to doubt my excitement over my new piano.

It's just that now, I wonder. And I want the feeling of security in knowing that most of them are probably real, because the moderators are doing everything they can to squelch the fakers.

I'll shut up now...

--
Posted by: Genaa

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 08:26 AM

scoobydoo villain unmasked.... and she would have gotten away with it had it not been for you meddling kids! lol!
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 08:40 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by JF:
Well, I am now looking at other threads a bit askance. For instance, there has been a large chunk of Kawai "love" here recently. We have people buying Kawai grands all over the place, people talking about how it is the best piano ever, nothing to bash about it, and how it's just overall "the best."

Now I'm wondering if all/none/some of them are "real." This is not meant to offend any of the people who are posting about their new pianos, because I hate to cloud a moment of joy with cynicism. I wouldn't want people to doubt my excitement over my new piano.

It's just that now, I wonder. And I want the feeling of security in knowing that most of them are probably real, because the moderators are doing everything they can to squelch the fakers.

I'll shut up now...

-- [/b]
posters have been doing this for years. it absolutely drives me bats... and some of them are very clever... moderators don't squelch the fakers.. the best one can do is argue and and allude.

it is so cheap to debase Piano World this way.

BUY AN AD FOR GOODNESS SAKES
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 08:55 AM

Apple,

Why do moderators not squelch the fakers? There are certainly ways to try (I know this), and hanging a few from the yard arm does set an example that may deter others.

Prompt action from the board in defense of its integrity also may reduce the noise from angry people for whom heckling the outed dealer (and the firms they represent) may seem like the best alternative recourse.
Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 09:02 AM

I do not believe that Pianomadam is a dealer or salesperson at all. With her lack of knowledge, she could never survive as either the former or the latter.

Pianomadam is simply paid for making postings, IMHO. I would'nt be surprised if she is also 'Imelda Marcos' posting to a shoe forum.

Note, that 'the one whose name shall not be mentioned' has been paying such posters.
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 09:07 AM

 Quote:
People generally trust what they read here (I know I do/did), and it would be a shame to lose that trust. If we can't trust a poster's advice or impressions on a brand, this board quickly becomes irrelevant. [/b]
It is a mistake to trust any one opinion that you read here. Equally irrational opinions can be presented by a sock or an exuberant (albeit sincere) ignoramus. It is actually beneficial to lose your trust immediately. Strictly speaking, if you were shopping for a piano and trusted all opinions here, you would not have a clue which piano to buy.

The relevance of a board such as this is related to breadth of opinion. If there are enough active members reading content, opinions will be countered with other opinions. False claims cited in connection with those opinions will be exposed as false, and erroneous facts will be corrected. If these conditions exist, a thread will run the same course whether it is initiated by a sock or by a sincere inquiry. The board will have served its purpose.

You may find in the course of membership here that you are suspicious of a certain OP. At that point you have choices. You can tune out. You can state your suspicion in a post reply accusing the OP. You can reply with your honest opinions based on the facts as you understand them and without a hint of accusation. The first choice is to the detriment of all. The second may well cause you to advance a false accusation. The third will be the most productive.

This thread opened with a request for a comparison of three and only three specific pianos. The request was not genuine; the supposed question was apparently an attempt to generate some positive spin for the Essex at the expense of the other two. The first two responses were far more pro-Essex than the OP even though I am quite sure they were genuine and sincere opinions. I suppose you could say that at that point the planted question achieved its purpose. If the board's membership were small and inattentive, did not represent a diversity of opinion, and the thread had simply ended there, the planted question would have achieved the result that the person who planted it desired. Only one side of the case would have been presented. However, the thread did not end there. Contrary opinion appeared and certain facts were explored as to their relevance and/or truthfulness.

Had you believed everything you read on this thread up to the point where discussion of the pianos ceased, you would have needed to believe conflicting facts and opinions. The onus is on you to sort through the information and make sense of it. The onus on the board is to provide a depth and breadth of membership that allows for a topic to be fully explored.[/b] Whether the OP is genuine or planted, a consideration of all the information presented should lead you to the same conclusion, a conclusion based on your own priorities, the information presented as evaluated by you, and (hopefully) hands-on experience with the pianos.
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 09:29 AM

This is the liberal position, as in John Stuart Mill, and there is much to be said for it. For the most part, I agree.

Yet there is also an argument that this board is a public good, and as such there are some pretty bad incentives to abuse it. The moderators (and Frank) may have a role to play in making it function more effectively so that the signal to noise ratio is higher than it might be in complete laissez-faire freedom.

Acting against people who violate rules against non-disclosure or who use sock puppets to advance an agenda may help make the discussion more productive.
Posted by: Sir Lurksalot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 09:36 AM

 Quote:
Note, that 'the one whose name shall not be mentioned' has been paying such posters.
If you're referring to the same person Jolly referenced, that person is not in the business and therefore has no incentive to pay posters.
Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 09:45 AM

The one I meant is in the business, and has been paying posters before PW even existed, i.e. in the days of Usenet.

I have been mentioning 'names' and 'no names' but that's not really the thrust of my message. The thrust of my message has to do with how the bottom drawer of the Internet looks like.
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 09:45 AM

Dad,

I have no disagreement with the moderators removing incentives to abuse the forum, if such incentives exist. However, whatever rules are in place, members do have the responsibility to evaluate conflicting informations.

Whatever rules moderators put in place, I would only hope that they enforce them evenly, and not base the level of enforcement on public outcry from members regarding a certain member, or back-door PMs from disgruntled members.

The OP in this thread was extremely irritating to many members, including you (if I read your posts here correctly). I don't think popularity or lack of the same should be involved in the level of enforcement of whatever the rules happen to be.
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:08 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Apple,

Why do moderators not squelch the fakers? There are certainly ways to try (I know this), and hanging a few from the yard arm does set an example that may deter others.

Prompt action from the board in defense of its integrity also may reduce the noise from angry people for whom heckling the outed dealer (and the firms they represent) may seem like the best alternative recourse. [/b]
it is not unusual to post from different IP addresses. one can check addresses but i know (from another forum) that it is extremely tedious. (might not be here)... i myself spot a trend; a cheerfulness with keywords and subtle disses, subtle endorsements and absurd stories of piano searches (to me). it seems posters work in tandem with a group of 3 or 4 keeping a thread alive.

it drives me bats.

scumbags

--- edit---

I've been mistaken in my assumption of 'im'posters and it is indeed unfair to accuse without proof.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:20 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
 Quote:
People generally trust what they read here (I know I do/did), and it would be a shame to lose that trust. If we can't trust a poster's advice or impressions on a brand, this board quickly becomes irrelevant. [/b]
It is a mistake to trust any one opinion that you read here. Equally irrational opinions can be presented by a sock or an exuberant (albeit sincere) ignoramus. It is actually beneficial to lose your trust immediately. Strictly speaking, if you were shopping for a piano and trusted all opinions here, you would not have a clue which piano to buy.

The relevance of a board such as this is related to breadth of opinion. If there are enough active members reading content, opinions will be countered with other opinions. False claims cited in connection with those opinions will be exposed as false, and erroneous facts will be corrected. If these conditions exist, a thread will run the same course whether it is initiated by a sock or by a sincere inquiry. The board will have served its purpose.

You may find in the course of membership here that you are suspicious of a certain OP. At that point you have choices. You can tune out. You can state your suspicion in a post reply accusing the OP. You can reply with your honest opinions based on the facts as you understand them and without a hint of accusation. The first choice is to the detriment of all. The second may well cause you to advance a false accusation. The third will be the most productive.

This thread opened with a request for a comparison of three and only three specific pianos. The request was not genuine; the supposed question was apparently an attempt to generate some positive spin for the Essex at the expense of the other two. The first two responses were far more pro-Essex than the OP even though I am quite sure they were genuine and sincere opinions. I suppose you could say that at that point the planted question achieved its purpose. If the board's membership were small and inattentive, did not represent a diversity of opinion, and the thread had simply ended there, the planted question would have achieved the result that the person who planted it desired. Only one side of the case would have been presented. However, the thread did not end there. Contrary opinion appeared and certain facts were explored as to their relevance and/or truthfulness.

Had you believed everything you read on this thread up to the point where discussion of the pianos ceased, you would have needed to believe conflicting facts and opinions. The onus is on you to sort through the information and make sense of it. The onus on the board is to provide a depth and breadth of membership that allows for a topic to be fully explored.[/b] Whether the OP is genuine or planted, a consideration of all the information presented should lead you to the same conclusion, a conclusion based on your own priorities, the information presented as evaluated by you, and (hopefully) hands-on experience with the pianos. [/b]
VERY well put.
Posted by: Steve Chandler

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:21 AM

Turandot,

I agree wholeheartedly that readers should evaluate the opinions on this board skeptically. I also agree that posters with opinions should post them, preferably under their own name. I also believe that forum owners and moderators have a duty to enforce the rules on those caught red handed. To this point I am unaware of that being the case here and that gives me cause for concern.
Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:35 AM

I agree that a minimum of administrative measures should be taken to give forum participants a chance for using their common sense in separating the wheat from the chaff.

Beyond such minimum administrative measures, it's quickly becoming a matter of diminishing returns, all you hit is the 'paid for postings' trade, not the real perpetrators behind it.
Posted by: Monica K.

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:47 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Chandler:
I agree wholeheartedly that readers should evaluate the opinions on this board skeptically. I also agree that posters with opinions should post them, preferably under their own name. I also believe that forum owners and moderators have a duty to enforce the rules on those caught red handed. To this point I am unaware of that being the case here and that gives me cause for concern. [/b]
Ditto here. I wish Frank or Ken would weigh in here. \:\( Er, I don't suppose there's any chance that they're not aware of this thread, is there?

p.s. I had no idea people were getting paid for posting. Man, that's 11,000+ opportunities for extra cash I've just squandered... \:D
Posted by: sophial

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:02 AM

Piano*Dad wrote:" The individual needs a punishment as well as the firm they represent. "

P*D- I've agreed with much of what you have written so far but I think this smacks of the witch hunt. For one thing, we really don't know if pianomadam really does represent Steinway. I have always had my doubts about that. She/he has never provided any verifiable identity to support that, and has behaved in ways that would make that a very questionable claim. Even if she is a legit dealer, do we have any evidence that Steinway knows or approves of this type of behavior? I can't imagine Bob Snyder, for example, doing this. The idea of "punishing" Steinway (don't they get enough of that around here anyway? ;\) ) for pianomadam's sins (whoever she/he actually is) seems a bit over the top.

Sophia
Posted by: Jeff Bauer

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:16 AM

wow. I know the economy, and the piano market for that matter, are on the ropes right now, but this trancends slow business and boredom, heading full steam towards guile.

However, it's been an entertaining read.

As the PianoWorld turns.."
Posted by: mdsdurango

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:17 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
OK, here it is: I screwed up royally! My apologies to all on this forum. I'm ashamed and appalled at the lengths I saw myself go to. I let the anonymity get the best of me. I hope I can gain your forgiveness now or sometime in the future. I do value this site and assume there will be months of scourging I will be going through for any post I put on this forum in the future, but those are the consequences I'm willing to take on.

My apologies to Steinway & Sons, those that represent the Steinway & Sons Family of Pianos, and all piano professionals for my example.

That's all for now... [/b]
Back to pm's appology post; Genuine? or a crock of doo doo?

Or does it even matter?
Posted by: OperaTenor

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:25 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Beacon Chris:

By the way, if you feel the urge to develop a multiple personality disorder again, have a Gianni Schicchi moment, i.e. something funny. (that was for you, Turandot)
[/b]
Hey, I'll take that, too.

\:D
Posted by: OperaTenor

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:29 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Beacon Chris:
Madam,

Disclosing your true identity and posting that way from now on would give you instant credibility here.

Try it - I think you would like it...

By the way, if you feel the urge to develop a multiple personality disorder again, have a Gianni Schicchi moment, i.e. something funny. (that was for you, Turandot)

Best to you,

BC [/b]
As for the rest of what Chris says, I agree wholeheartedly. Sunlight's the best disinfectant.
Posted by: OperaTenor

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:32 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by honkytonk:
Now this is the Pianoworld I remember ;\)

I remember when Pianomadam first posted as JordanKittsGuy

It didn't take long for Him (Her?) to realize that this was not a good way to remain anonymous and all of his posts were quickly deleted. Since then this person has posted using many different sockpuppets.

PS - Hi everyone, have you missed me? [/b]
Here we all come out of the woodwork. all we need now is FTP.
Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:39 AM

That's inconsequential poppycock, this 'paid for postings' trade will continue, it has been since the days of Usenet (and which was one nail of many in Usenet's coffin)

What happens right here in PW is not too bad in comparison. It's just that minimum administrative measures ought to be part of site maintenance, that's all, IMHO.
Posted by: DanLaura Larson

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:41 AM

I am sure the moderators are aware of this mess and they are taking their time to make the best decision. I have confidence that they will do the best they can for this forum's ongoing vitality. It may be that they have to tread carefully here because this may be a landmine field of legality.

Dan
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:42 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by sophial:
Piano*Dad wrote:" The individual needs a punishment as well as the firm they represent. "

P*D- I've agreed with much of what you have written so far but I think this smacks of the witch hunt. For one thing, we really don't know if pianomadam really does represent Steinway. I have always had my doubts about that. She/he has never provided any verifiable identity to support that, and has behaved in ways that would make that a very questionable claim. Even if she is a legit dealer, do we have any evidence that Steinway knows or approves of this type of behavior? I can't imagine Bob Snyder, for example, doing this. The idea of "punishing" Steinway (don't they get enough of that around here anyway? ;\) ) for pianomadam's sins (whoever she/he actually is) seems a bit over the top.

Sophia [/b]
My point was really about the individual punishment. This board has not really tried policing socks, even ones that have been de-socked publicly, so to speak.

The firm they represent gets punished by all the negative backwash generated by the sock/shill getting caught. That seems unavoidable and it is independent of whether or not that firm (or manufacturer) was aware of the activity. That's a consequence of preserving anonymity on the web.

BTW, your point about the possibility of truly Machiavellian reverse spin (as in PianoMadam was really trying to throw dirt on Steinway instead of praise) is well taken. Others have argued for this possibility as well. In this case I doubt that is true. PM's posting history here seems far more amateurish than Machiavellian. But this reverse-spin possibility is yet another unavoidable feature of allowing dealers to post anonymously.

I am certainly not arguing that the forum itself should try to punish Steinway, or any other firm, for the lame behavior of its employees. I do wish to see us crack down on the individuals who behave in this way.

Firms themselves do have an incentive to tell their employees how to behave in situations like this. If I were Steinway, and PM was indeed an employee that I discovered to have perpetrated this little episode, I would at the least have a woodshed moment with that employee.

No matter what we do or don't do there are consequences. We could request that dealers do more than give their affiliation. We could ask them to behave as Steve Cohen and many others. Post their actual affiliation, not just their brands. That would ensure that no Machiavellian reverse-dissing was likely. On the other hand, it would drive out all dealers who were unwilling to be as visible as Steve. I'm agnostic about how to 'make' dealers behave.

But I remain of the view that individuals should pay some price for clearly transgressing known ethical boundaries.
Posted by: sophial

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:58 AM

P*D
Agreed about appropriate consequences for individuals who violate the rules/boundaries. In rereading my post, I don't think I actually suggested the Machiavellian scenario that PM is a competing dealer seeking to make S&S look bad (not that I have not at times thought it). Perhaps the amateurish posting style was designed purposely to throw us off the scent-- even more Machiavellian! \:D Well, before we turn PM into the evil genius of PW and start gathering our pitchforks and torches to storm the castle, hopefully the moderators will have some information or a response forthcoming.

Sophia
Posted by: windsound

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 12:24 PM

I think what Pianomadam did has damaged the image of the so-called Steinway designed pianos, that is, Essex and Boston, as well as Steinway in this incident.
Posted by: piqué

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 12:45 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:
Are you a little lost lamb who wandered over here from the ABF? Maybe you're thinking of buying a piano? Let this thread be a warning to you--like a bloody head on a stick sharpened at both ends. You've crossed into savage country now. This is where Satan's dearest spawn, piano salesmen, hang their chain saws and hockey masks when they're not butchering little lambs like you.

You see, piano salesmen aren't born and suckled by loving mothers as you and me are, in nurseries with teddy bear wallpaper and squishy-squeaky toys. No. They grow from airborne spores that land in dank corners and suck blood from unsuspecting creatures that happen upon them. Some of these spores become politicians, others become investment bankers, but those that land in the darkest, dankest, and vilest corners become piano salesmen. There they learn dark arts, like shape shifting and IP manipulation, that let them become whoever they want, all the better to entice then squeeze their prey.

Tomorrow we may learn Piano Madam actually sells Walters and Yamahas and fabricated this whole ruse to discredit Essex. We don't know. This is Piano Land! There's no truth, only an eternity of loose tuning pins and cracked sound boards if we listen to the wrong lies.

Sometimes I wish I'd taken up the ukulele. [/b]
:rotfl:

this post is a classic. \:D
Posted by: piqué

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 12:56 PM

actually, imo, these events are a very good education for piano shoppers. they reveal the character of the piano business, which has never been particularly high-minded, even when business was good.

trusting someone in the piano business just because they put a good face on themselves at PW is not wise, either.

there *are* legitimate, ethical, and trustworthy piano dealers out there, but i'd be hard-pressed to say they are in the majority. and it's all too easy to manage one's image in an online forum.

buyer beware, as always.
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 01:08 PM

I think the moderators should check IP address on the most touted products on here. Walters included.

I'd be happy to help check IP addresses if allowed.
I know where I'd look first and I'd bet some posts would disappear before I got started.

I'll donate 10 hours of my time if the mods want.
Just give me permission and the knowledge how to do it and I'm in.
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 01:31 PM

I wounder if it is as easy as clicking the orange IP "logged" title between our "registered" date and the "Report Post" on the bottom of our post pages.
Posted by: mikhailoh

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 02:04 PM

From the PW Code of Ethics for industry folks...

 Quote:
Code Of Ethics:
We do not condone members hiding behind a veil of anonymity so they can push there own agenda, promote their own business or products, or create negative posts about their competitors and/or competitive products.

Show some class, identify yourself and try to contribute positively to the forums.

If you consider yourself to be a professional, please act like one! If you just can't resist promoting yourself or your business, or you think bashing your competitors and/or their products is the way to do business, you will likely find yourself banned from the forums[/b].

This is not a platform for people with personal agendas, it is a place where people with a genuine interest in the piano come for help, hints, ideas, information, and even to make new friends.

Stop the Self-Promotion!
It is NOT ACCEPTABLE[/b] for you to create posts thinly disguised as an innocent discussion when in fact they are nothing more than a promotion for your business.

Nor should you be directing your customers here for the sole purpose of touting how wonderful you are.
If you can get banned for self-promotion, it seems that what to do about proven deceitfulness is a no brainer.
Posted by: Copper

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 03:18 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:


I'm not big on socks, never have been. Some are ok if they're funny, but this is not a general chat type forum...people are spending hard-earned money on the things they read here.

[/b]
Exactly! The apology must include repayment of any money lost.

Let's start a list.

Anyone who has lost any money based on Pianomadam's advice please post the amount so she can begin mailing the checks.

Once all the checks are in the mail we can begin the discussion of forgiveness.
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 03:55 PM

I lost 25 Walter sales so that's around a buck fifty. \:D

Well, if I sold them at the prices I read here.
Posted by: Monica K.

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 04:00 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:

Sometimes I wish I'd taken up the ukulele. [/b]
I dunno, bluekeys, the ukulele forum seems like it's a wild and crazy place, too; check out their two page thread on the sexuality of "ukers" (as they apparently are known). \:D
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 05:05 PM

This was willfull, pre-meditated and manipulative. Add that to the posted rules here that specifically prohibit socks, particularly when it influences shoppers and it is clear.

Somebody out there likely knows who PianoMadam is. They should identify her/him to the mpderator who should contact and have them agree never to darken our door.

Also, I would begin to suspect everybody. Those who would sock here generally earn poor reputations and are often outed. I do think it is all that common here.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 05:23 PM

BTW, Frank is at NAMM.
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 06:19 PM

Mik is right, as is Steve. This is a no-brainer. A dealer's use of a sock to shill for their wares is, or should be, a banning event. This doesn't mean that Frank (or whoever makes the decision) must have every possible banning scenario worked out. I think some common sense would work just fine.

The fact that others in the past have used the same tactic seems like a poor defense for doing nothing now. In my view we should be more diligent in the future and reduce the incidence of this behavior.
Posted by: FogVilleLad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 06:20 PM

Steve, somebody - Ken K., I suppose - should contact him.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 06:47 PM

There is a "Report" waiting for his retrieval.
Posted by: FogVilleLad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 07:24 PM

Posted by: TX-Dennis

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 08:21 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Monica K.:
[QUOTE]

p.s. I had no idea people were getting paid for posting. Man, that's 11,000+ opportunities for extra cash I've just squandered... \:D [/b]
:D
Posted by: Ken Knapp

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 09:32 PM

Hey Guys, \:\)

I just got home from work and sat down at the computer.

A few thoughts...

Socks do get actively looked into, all the time. IP addresses help some, but the really good socks know ways around that. There are a few I suspect are socks, just can't prove it.

For example, JordanKittsGuy didn't cover his tracks too well and it was not hard to out him.

A few months ago, I got a PM from a forum member advising me that two VERY respected forum members were one and the same person. I checked IP addresses and and found that both members posted from the same address. So I confronted one of the screen names. He had a fairly reasonable explanation, so I let it ride for a bit. About a week later I noticed another indication that we did indeed have a sock on our hands. So I jumped on him and I pulled no punches.

Again he had an explanation, although it was a bit of a stretch. Was he telling the truth? I really don't know. But the end result was that he got upset and never came back. I will not identify either of these people. If I was wrong I would be publicly shaming him, not to mention the other member who is still here. I feel terrible about it because I'll never know for sure and I would never intentionally cause someone grief or harm.

The best course of action when you suspect a sock is to let me and/or Frank know and we WILL look into it. Just beware we might not find any evidence of sock puppetry. And then any action taken would depend on how disruptive the member may be.

Ken
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 09:57 PM

Wow!!! sorry to be a bit negative but that sure puts the Muppets at ease.

It would be better to say we're watching you and you will be banned for puppettering without a licence.

Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:01 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Rod Verhnjak:
It takes guts to write what you did even if we don't know who you are.

From what I understand,
what you have done has been done by others.

Perhaps an apology to Yamaha and Charles Walter would have also been in order.

[/b]
--Fair enough, Rod. I will say, though, that the opinions I expressed are how I, Pianomadam, actually feel, and not an attempt to trash either product. I have sold Charles Walter in the distant past and am basing my impressions on such. I'm sorry for any way that I may have been perceived as trashing Charles Walter or Yamaha.
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:03 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Furtwangler:
Madam

I must say I am quite surprised and very impressed with your apology. How about a fresh start? [/b]
I wish it were that easy! Thanks for the thoughts, though. If I have to face expulsion...so be it. I would deserve it.
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:06 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Beacon Chris:
Madam,

Disclosing your true identity and posting that way from now on would give you instant credibility here.

Try it - I think you would like it...

By the way, if you feel the urge to develop a multiple personality disorder again, have a Gianni Schicchi moment, i.e. something funny. (that was for you, Turandot)

Best to you,

BC [/b]
---This topic has come up before and was resolved. You'll need to reference posts from a while back. Bottom line is that you need to state your affiliation in the industry but not your exact location. For me this is important as I have been asked not to reveal such by my employer.
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:07 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by schwammerl:
Madam,

A testimony of great courage.
Above all keep on posting while preserving your own opinions and personality.

schwammerl. [/b]
---Thank you, schwammerl. I will...if I am allowed to.
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:09 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mdsdurango:
Likewise Madam,
I was surprised to see you post and impressed to see your apology.

Keep your head on your shoulders and above water and you will be fine. Remember; "There can be no friendship without confidence; and no confidence, without integrity".

Lost for a moment but not gone as evidenced by your actions.
I agree with Beacon Cris that more info of who you really are in your signiture line would be appropriate.

Mike [/b]
---Thank you, Mike. I'm open to suggestions by forum members as what else they would like to see in my signature line, without revealing my EXACT location.
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:11 PM

quit while you're ahead
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:14 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Monica K.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by POTUS:
Now I see that we're forced to be extremely skeptical even on a forum of piano lovers. And when someone is caught red handed and belatedly admits the obvious, it's considered "a testimony of great courage"?

Maybe others have more time to sift through the it all and figure out what is truthful here, but I think it'd be more helpful to the rest of us if this sort of thing was policed by the moderators and the related parties banned.
[/b]
I tend to side with POTUS on this one. Pardon me if I don't get caught up in the Pianomadam lovefest. She apologized only because she got caught. Who knows how often she's pulled this stunt in the past, and who knows how often she'll pull it again in the future. I agree with you, Mike, that we have no way of ensuring that she wouldn't just re-register under a new alias if she were banned... but I think that knowingly allowing her to continue posting is an even worse alternative.

Not having any kind of consequence for this kind of misbehavior sends the wrong message, imo.
Of course, this is just my opinion; ultimately it's Frank's and/or Ken's judgment call to make. [/b]
--Fair enough, Monica. I know that some may find this hard to believe but I am not L1037 and other post-ers that have come on here in the past few months talking about Essex as a viable piano choice. cklavier has been my ONLY "sock puppet".
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:16 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bear 1:
Pianomadam gets caught with her pants down and some folks want to kiss both cheeks. No Thanks ..
No apology from an anonymous avatar will do.
Wonder how many more avatars she uses?
She now shows her location as Southern United States instead of Northeast USA ...
Did she move her store? Full disclosure please. [/b]
---Yes, I have indeed moved down south.
Posted by: Greyhound

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:24 PM

Pianomadam[/b] : "I know that some may find this hard to believe but I am not L1037 and other post-ers that have come on here in the past few months talking about Essex as a viable piano choice. cklavier has been my ONLY "sock puppet".

Since you've been on for about 1.5 years, what about prior to the past few months ?
Posted by: Ken Knapp

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:25 PM

Rod,

True. That's why I grit my teeth when statements are made that socks are "allowed" on here. I've spent hours and hours sometimes looking at IP addresses on suspected socks. Not just one or two, but their entire posting history looking for a slip up. It is VERY tedious and VERY OFTEN fruitless.

After a while, they make mistakes, like pianomadam did, and then we know.

We do all we can, within the constraints of our time and available resources.

Banning is sometimes the answer for sock puppets. Or outing them in public forum. I'll promise you this - if I know for sure someone is a sock I'll deal with it, no matter who they are.

Ken
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:26 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
I'm not joining the easy apology side either. Saying this is not the same thing as heckling. She has been shilling outrageously for Steinway and all of those fabulous and incredible Steinway-designed products for as long as she has been here. Anyone with a decent grasp of the search function can verify that. Now she has been caught using a sock to peddle and puff Essex. Geez.

OK she apologized. Fine. Embarrassment is a great motive for that. And getting caught in the act brooks no weaseling. It warrants no group hug. Whatever tiny bit of credibility she might have had should be shredded. The problem, of course, is that a shill can always return to influence people who have no history here, but who are looking to this group for help.

It's a constant problem, I know, and she is surely not the only dealer ever to behave in this fashion. That likely fact warrants no group hug either. [/b]
---Hello, PianoDad. I know emotions are running high and you may have, understandably, said something you really do not have clear evidence for. Here is my question to you (and others):
Do you have some examples of where I have trashed another piano or negatively influenced other post-ers looking for advice by trashing the competition? PLEASE, I really want to know. It shouldn't be tough, according to you. Provide evidence before you make such a damning comment. Then, you can say that my credibility has been shredded.
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:28 PM

quit while you are ahead.

come back as another sock..


that is your only option. you've been sooooo sooooo sooo antithetical to what piano world is all about.

how can you say you are sorry after your 100s of self serving posts? you've trashed Steinway (a fine piano btw) and lost all credibility.

sorry.
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:32 PM

and quit playing so stupid. what do you think we are?

a bunch of idiots?
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:36 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by DanLaura Larson:
 Quote:
Originally posted by mdsdurango:

Jman, suppose he was one of pianomadams incarnations? [/b]
I've been wondering this all along. jman37 and L1037 making similar threads to compare Essex with competitors and Boston with Kawai and Yamaha while trashing the competition. Then Pianomadam tag teaming with them.

Dan [/b]
---Again, please give examples of where I tag-teamed to "trash" the competition.
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:41 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
Bottom line is that you need to state your affiliation in the industry but not your exact location. For me this is important as I have been asked not to reveal such by my employer. [/b]
If I were your boss I'd want the same thing.

BTW, which one is the boss?


Posted by: lilylady

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:42 PM

Ken, I appreciate what you do, and now that you KNOW this is a caught sock that has been outed, should that caught sock be hidden in a thread that has such an odd title?

I have been waiting PM for you to start a new thread apologizing. Now all we are seeing is defensive postings.

If not, Maybe Ken should.

As far as the rules about stating where you work, you should just do it just because that is the ethical thing to do - like SO MANY OTHER dealers do! not just because it is a rule. Geeze.
Posted by: Ken Knapp

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:46 PM

lilylady,

You know, you're right about the title. I'll fix it.

Ken
Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 10:59 PM

Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:07 PM

what do you call a sock puppet who apologizes?
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:09 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
quit while you are ahead.

come back as another sock..


that is your only option. you've been sooooo sooooo sooo antithetical to what piano world is all about.

how can you say you are sorry after your 100s of self serving posts? you've trashed Steinway (a fine piano btw) and lost all credibility.

sorry. [/b]
--That would be convenient for you, apple, I know...less competition against your beloved Estonia. But, with sweeping generalizations such as "your 100s of self-serving posts" I'm more encouraged to stay on. Sweeping generalizations are more harmful to the general public than informed opinions/facts, even if you do not agree with them, which, oh yeah, you NEVER (or rarely) agree with anything I post!
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:13 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
Sweeping generalizations are more harmful to the general public than informed opinions/facts, even if you do not agree with them, which, oh yeah, you NEVER (or rarely) agree with anything I post! [/QB]
you are not honest

duh!
Posted by: Norbert

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:15 PM

 Quote:
Bottom line is that you need to state your affiliation in the industry but not your exact location. For me this is important as I have been asked not to reveal such by my employer.
Sounds to me like some last minute underdeck conversation of the sinking Titanik.

Amazing how many fine shps have cruised the sea since then....

Norbert
Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:18 PM

Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:20 PM

Apple,

I admit I screwed up. All I am asking is that you not make sweeping generalizations. For crying out loud, who doesn't tout their own product once in a while? Re-read my posts and you will see that, often enough, I am helping others make a decision on the pianos they have presented, not even mentioning any of the Steinway-designed pianos. Other times I am starting threads that have nothing to do with the Steinway line (e.g. what is the best piano you have ever played?....would you rather carry kawai or Yamaha?...etc..). Do you have some agenda here...let's be honest!
Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:20 PM

Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:27 PM

unique toiletbrush

Posted by: koiloco

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:29 PM

omg,

I've been away for a while.

This is definitely something else.

Very shameful indeed.
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:32 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
Do you have some agenda here...let's be honest! [/b]
no,

i don't have an agenda... i try not to exploit pianoworld.

we are here i hope, to help those who are interested in pianos, not ourselves.
\

if you want to post as a dealer, do so. What's so bad about that?
Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:33 PM

Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:41 PM

Posted by: Avantgardenabi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:48 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by koiloco:
omg,

I've been away for a while.

This is definitely something else.

Very shameful indeed. [/b]
Hello, koiloco,

It is not something else; remember, there was an incident that involved me and some piano technicians... \:\(

Lately, I am utterly disappointed by the level of professionalism shown by some piano professionals.

Calling Mason and Hamlins "junks" because they are entirely "Chinese," deceitfully acting two members at the same time, or wishing someone's "butt" to be sued...
Posted by: koiloco

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/15/09 11:53 PM

lol Avant.

I remember very well indeed because I offered you to email me those pictures so I can repost them again and see who would like to contact my lawyer \:\)
But again, that's the past. This is my first encounter with an exposed sock puppet.
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 12:18 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
Do you have some agenda here...let's be honest! [/b]
no,

i don't have an agenda... i try not to exploit pianoworld.

we are here i hope, to help those who are interested in pianos, not ourselves.
\

if you want to post as a dealer, do so. What's so bad about that? [/b]
--Very well, Apple. I'm too tired to argue any more. I do stand by what I said previously, though. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, as they say. No surprise, my most vocal opponents from the distant and recent past (e.g. Pianodad, windsound, Rod, Steve Cohen, honkytonk, Bear1, etc...) are leading the present witch hunt to oust me from this forum.
It goes to show their true vitriol for the brand I represent.
Posted by: paulmarcus

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 12:34 AM

I finally got caught up on this thread. Seems like this was over on page 2. Can we just get back to talking about pianos?
Posted by: U S A P T

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 12:36 AM

pianomadam, do you know anything about Cristofori pianos?
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 12:49 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
No surprise, my most vocal opponents from the distant and recent past (e.g. Pianodad, windsound, Rod, Steve Cohen, honkytonk, Bear1, etc...) are leading the present witch hunt to oust me from this forum.
It goes to show their true vitriol for the brand I represent. [/b]

I personally stick up for Steinway when the need arises. Without Steinway my income would be far less than it is.
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 01:09 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
what do you call a sock puppet who apologizes? [/b]
A sorry sock (but a sock by any other name would smell as stinky). \:o

Steven
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 01:19 AM

Posted by: FogVilleLad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 01:34 AM

Pianomadam on your way out the door, would you mind correcting your sig line? You're continuing to pose as a dealer. One of your most recent posts includes the info that your employer prefers that your location not to be specified. (No surprise there.)

You're a disgrace to the Steinway name, BTW.
Posted by: wg73

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 02:32 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:
Are you a little lost lamb who wandered over here from the ABF? Maybe you're thinking of buying a piano? Let this thread be a warning to you--like a bloody head on a stick sharpened at both ends. You've crossed into savage country now. This is where Satan's dearest spawn, piano salesmen, hang their chain saws and hockey masks when they're not butchering little lambs like you.

You see, piano salesmen aren't born and suckled by loving mothers as you and me are, in nurseries with teddy bear wallpaper and squishy-squeaky toys. No. They grow from airborne spores that land in dank corners and suck blood from unsuspecting creatures that happen upon them. Some of these spores become politicians, others become investment bankers, but those that land in the darkest, dankest, and vilest corners become piano salesmen. There they learn dark arts, like shape shifting and IP manipulation, that let them become whoever they want, all the better to entice then squeeze their prey.

Tomorrow we may learn Piano Madam actually sells Walters and Yamahas and fabricated this whole ruse to discredit Essex. We don't know. This is Piano Land! There's no truth, only an eternity of loose tuning pins and cracked sound boards if we listen to the wrong lies.

Sometimes I wish I'd taken up the ukulele. [/b]
:rotfl:

this post is a classic. \:D [/b]
OMG! CLASSIC! LMAO!
Posted by: theJourney

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 03:15 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by POTUS:
I'm new here as well, thinking I could get a little bit more honest information than I seemed to get when shopping for a new piano.

Now I see that we're forced to be extremely skeptical even on a forum of piano lovers. And when someone is caught red handed and belatedly admits the obvious, it's considered "a testimony of great courage"?

Maybe others have more time to sift through the it all and figure out what is truthful here, but I think it'd be more helpful to the rest of us if this sort of thing was policed by the moderators and the related parties banned.
[/b]
Well, if pianomadam were smarter he or she would have become an investment banker, then he or she could have made millions on the back of her or his investors, brought the entire economy to its knees through unbridled greed and systemic fraud and then still be saved by the taxpayer with hundreds of billions in bailout money to keep this years hundreds of millions in bonuses.

But, fraud and deception on a piano nerd bulletin board? How low can you go? I agree it is small potatoes in comparison, but we congratulate him or her upon being discovered just because someone ele could create yet another sock? Or because, after all, "people/dealers do it all the time, we expect them to be frauds" After all, fake online sellers and con artists troll for marks here all the time too. Remember in this brave new world built in the image of the American dream gone sour on the back of the ethic "anything goes and any behavior is ok as long as you are out to make yourself a buck", you can trust no one.

If Pianoworld has no intention of following up on abuse, then it should at least post a large font, bold disclaimer on the start page and every forum page "FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY -- DO NOT RELY ON THE OFTEN BOGUS AND DISHONEST INFORMATION CONTAINED HIERIN FOR PURCHASE DECISIONS"
Posted by: Genaa

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 04:10 AM

I think what you fail to appreciate Pianomadam, or choose not to acknowledge, is that nobody here has any real problem with people touting a particular brand of piano if they are enthusiastic about them.

Horowitzian for example is a staunch enthusiast about the quality of their Steinway B and hell why not..this is largely what Pianoworld strikes me as being about - enthusiastic discussion about the merits of the lovely instruments we cherish.

What you have done is deliberately seek to deceive and mislead other people by your duplicitous constructed multiple IDs.

This was a pre-meditated, deliberate conscious choice on your part, which insults the intelligence of all readers and, to me at least, suggests that you consider yourself somehow above us. That is far worse than lying, it is the worst kind of dishonesty such as practiced by fraudsters.

Please don't add further insult to injury by trying to suggest that all you have done is been guilty of being a bit over-enthusiastic in your support for a cherished stable of brands. Your actions have nothing whatever in common with the likes of Apple, or others, who simply praise the merits of the pianos they own and love playing, so please don't seek to cheapen others by attempting to tar them with a brush the same colour as the muck you are now covered in.

If you think a quickly worded apology "gosh! i don't know what came over me, silly me what have I done!" carries any sincerity then you are sadly mistaken, hey for all I know you had your fingers crossed whilst typing it!

Now you come back on the defensive challenging others to prove the extent of your 'past crimes', go figure- it doesn't matter, one premeditated deception or one hundred - you are still a dishonest person, end of story.

The most useful contribution you can make to these forums now is to take your animal-cunning deceitful low-brow little self away and go crawl under a far-away rock where unpleasant creatures such as yourself should reside.

In short I'll give you a clue...."2 words, seven letters, starts with F, ends with F"
Posted by: Deon van aswegen

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 04:41 AM

Ouch! \:D \:D \:D
Posted by: AJB

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 05:06 AM

Well, this is what happens when you live in a different time zone - and go abroad for a day. I can't believe that an eight page thread suddenly appeared.

Isn't it sad though that dealers (or employees of dealers) are having such a hard time that they feel the need to indulge in such fakery? Even Steinway apparently need to generate business with underhand tactics. I am surprised Pianomadams employer has not sacked him or her. Or maybe I am not so surprised....

I know it has been going on for a long time, and it is one reason why I regard Piano World as entertainment rather than a true reliable source of credible facts. I know that is not what PW wants to be seen as though.

Judgements about pianos are always subjective anyway (hence there are many disagreements, which is fair enough), and for my part I tend to listen much more to the opinions of private posters who have been around for years, rather than dealers.

The IP addresses thing has long puzzled me. My understanding is that the IP address identifies each individual computer. Most private homes probably have several computers now (we have three, plus my son's school laptop) and most businesses will have several. So surely anyone wanting to assume multiple identities that are not traceable by having the same IP address can quite easily do so?

IP zip/post code tracking is also rather inexact I think.

Adrian
Posted by: Ken Knapp

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 05:32 AM

AJB,

IP addresses - What we see are addresses for the gateway. For example, in a home network, there is a gateway box and that's the IP address that shows up when I check it. That's on the internet side of the network. The router gives each individual pc in the home its own internal IP address within the home. That identifies each pc within the home network.

Ken

Ken
Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 05:45 AM

Looks like there is a market for automated sock puppet detection software
Posted by: theJourney

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 05:58 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by doremi:
Looks like there is a market for automated sock puppet detection software [/b]
Here the old-fashioned sock's "foot in mouth" detection was again definitive.
Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 06:03 AM

old-fashioned detection without tool is sporadic
Posted by: Ken Knapp

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 06:14 AM

Before I go to work, I should point out one thing.

I know many would rather that Pianomadam post where she works. I agree that we'd all rather see every person state theri affiliation AND where they work. While I do not know the circumstances where she works, I will say many employers do not want their employees stating where they work on forums. This is because they do not want an employee's words linked to them.

In this case, this thread would be EXTREMELY embarassing to both her employer and S&S. The potential for things like this topic happening is exactly why an employer would not want an employee attaching the company name to their posts.

And in this case I have little doubt that if she now revealed her employer she would be ut of a job. If her employer chose to keep her, it's very likely S&S would exert pressure to send her down the road.

I am not defending her actions, but I did want to explain why she won't reveal where she works.

Ken

P.S. I just proof read this post and would love to have phrased it better but I have to get out the door!! \:\)
Posted by: Greyhound

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 06:59 AM

Pianomadam: I'm going to repeat my question (see pg 7). You stated "I am not L1037 and other post-ers that have come on here in the past few months talking about Essex". Oh, you do so love word play. So once again, what about prior to the last few months??? Did you take any OTHER identities PRIOR to the last few months?
Posted by: Bob Newbie

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 07:26 AM

I keep seeing the word spores? sounds like the movie Day of The Triffids! \:D
Posted by: John Pels

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 07:51 AM

I don't know gang. all this pretense to outrage is just a little bit disingenuous. You have thousands of folks hiding behind one dopey screen name after another, and when one finally is outed as a "pretender" everyone is in a snit. I contribute to a bunch of forums non piano related, and everyone posts using their real name. Seemingly we never have these issues. I tend to be an old school type guy where "my name is my bond" or something to that effect. It seems to me that if you have nothing to hide, your real name should suffice. Otherwise, I am skeptical of EVERY post I read where a real name is not attached. Monica Kern is Monica Kern, Rich Gallasini is Rich Gallasini, Rod Verhnjak is Rod Verhnjak, John Pels is John Pels, and Ken Knapp is Ken Knapp. This sort of thing likely happens a hundred times a day on this type of forum. Feigned outrage is...well...feigned. What can any reasonable person expect when you have adults playing "let's pretend". Sheesh!!!
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 08:13 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
I'm not joining the easy apology side either. Saying this is not the same thing as heckling. She has been shilling outrageously for Steinway and all of those fabulous and incredible Steinway-designed products for as long as she has been here. Anyone with a decent grasp of the search function can verify that. Now she has been caught using a sock to peddle and puff Essex. Geez.

OK she apologized. Fine. Embarrassment is a great motive for that. And getting caught in the act brooks no weaseling. It warrants no group hug. Whatever tiny bit of credibility she might have had should be shredded. The problem, of course, is that a shill can always return to influence people who have no history here, but who are looking to this group for help.

It's a constant problem, I know, and she is surely not the only dealer ever to behave in this fashion. That likely fact warrants no group hug either. [/b]
---Hello, PianoDad. I know emotions are running high and you may have, understandably, said something you really do not have clear evidence for. Here is my question to you (and others):
Do you have some examples of where I have trashed another piano or negatively influenced other post-ers looking for advice by trashing the competition? PLEASE, I really want to know. It shouldn't be tough, according to you. Provide evidence before you make such a damning comment. Then, you can say that my credibility has been shredded. [/b]
I would ask you to reread my post and point out to me where I accuse you of trashing the competition. I know that emotions are running high and you may have, understandably, said something you really do not have clear evidence for. ;\)

Shilling outrageously for Steinway, indeed! I think that is obvious to anyone with the meanest intelligence.

Oh, and your first sock-post to start this thread is a dig at CW. Subtle, not gross, but a clear dig designed to turn the discussion, and done as a sock to promote your brand. That's not an honest opinion.

Those of us who think you should be banned are rather forthright in explaining why. You may choose to call it a witch hunt if it makes you feel better.

Lastly, I challenge YOU to show that I trash Steinway. I have posted many complimentary things about Steinway products. I even started my own thread to describe my visit to Steinway Hall with my son (complete with paeans of praise to a wonderful D under the dome.

What I react to is boilerplate promo-sheet hype of the sort you have repeatedly foisted upon this forum. You have brought great discredit to a fine piano.

Now with this sock episode, you need to depart.
Posted by: Sir Lurksalot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 08:27 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
quit while you are ahead.

come back as another sock..
[/b]
Exactly. You're anonymous anyway. Why is it so important that you continue to post as Pianomadam? Given recent developments, it's rather bizarre. You're just a bunch of dishonest electrons to the rest of us, so if you really want to continue participating in this disconnected form of social interaction, change your name and pretend nothing happened. Pianomadam is dead.
Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 08:35 AM

She may not be anonymous to her immediate environment and may have bad karma there too
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 08:39 AM

 Quote:
You're just a bunch of dishonest electrons to the rest of us, so if you really want to continue participating in this disconnected form of social interaction, change your name and pretend nothing happened.
I hope this is not[/b] what happens. If a person is banned, that person is gone, not not just their current avatar.
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 09:17 AM

an internet address can be blocked. ironically the one other person who was permanently blocked was the BEST at doing the laundry.
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 09:44 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by John Pels:
I don't know gang. all this pretense to outrage is just a little bit disingenuous. You have thousands of folks hiding behind one dopey screen name after another, and when one finally is outed as a "pretender" everyone is in a snit. I contribute to a bunch of forums non piano related, and everyone posts using their real name. Seemingly we never have these issues. I tend to be an old school type guy where "my name is my bond" or something to that effect. It seems to me that if you have nothing to hide, your real name should suffice. Otherwise, I am skeptical of EVERY post I read where a real name is not attached. Monica Kern is Monica Kern, Rich Gallasini is Rich Gallasini, Rod Verhnjak is Rod Verhnjak, John Pels is John Pels, and Ken Knapp is Ken Knapp. This sort of thing likely happens a hundred times a day on this type of forum. Feigned outrage is...well...feigned. What can any reasonable person expect when you have adults playing "let's pretend". Sheesh!!! [/b]
I think this is restating the obvious, but most people here—the ones with our "dopey" noms de guerre—don't feel it's wise (or even safe) to use our real names. I'm sure the only thing most of us want to hide is our full names, for the very practical reason that there are a lot of nuts out there. Most of us say things from time to time that someone, somewhere for some reason will find controversial, and it's as easy to make enemies as friends on these here Internets.

Are you aware of how much can be found out about you by revealing your name and location to anyone with a casual motivation to do so? It's certainly your choice to do so, but smugness toward those of us who don't isn't appropriate. (FWIW, Monica hasn't used her surname here for quite a while.)

Steven
Posted by: AJB

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 10:02 AM

I agree with Steven / Sotto Voice here.

There are people who trawl internet forums looking for ID theft material, or just to use the contacts gleaned for nuisance purposes.

I have been on this forum for years now. I have corresponded with many members here and many know my full real name - the forename of which is, remarkably enough, Adrian. My avatar is my initials.

That said I think it is different for a dealer. Dealers - who let's be honest seek commercial gain from being here - should publish their name or their business name. Those dealers who use their genuine id may well get business from it if they post here in a sensible way.

I personally think that dealers who hide behind anonymous avatars should be at least temporarily banned promptly if they engage in blatant brand promotion or blatant brand knocking.

And PianoMadam, having a dig at Piano Dad (who publishes his real name for all to see) is just laughable. He does not need me to defend him, but in several years here I have NEVER seen him engage in brand bashing. We have corresponded from time to time and to my mind he is one of the people here who displays considerable integrity - whether of not you agree with his opinions.

Kind regards

Adrian
Posted by: DanLaura Larson

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 10:03 AM

Pianomadam, here is a thread started by jman37 where he praises Boston at the expense of trashing Kawai. You join in on page 3 to cast subtle aspersions on Kawai actions. A little later on Turandot accuses you of tag teaming with jman37.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/24913.html

Rod already linked this thread where you tag teamed with L1037, but here it is again

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/21749.html

Here's an interesting thread that doesn't trash the competition. You start the thread by asking which line the reader would rather represent, Yamaha or Kawai. The first response is by jman37 hijacking the thread (planned perhaps?) to suggest Boston.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/24927.html#000001

Dan
Posted by: Mark...

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 10:08 AM

Do these professional piano people who play these silly games actually think they are effecting piano sales in any way, shape or form? LOL
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 10:16 AM

Well, if my memory serves me, several people have posted that they felt deceived by some of what they read here concerning a recently defunct internet seller. I have no desire to turn this thread in that direction (please!), but I have no problems accepting that some people can be persuaded to shift their purchase based on the skillful manipulations of a sock here at PW.


P.S. Thanks Adrian.

I don't mind the defense! \:D
Posted by: AJB

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 10:18 AM

Mark...thay are not "professional" people. They are just people who call themselves that but without any of the integrity that actually being a true professional requires.

One advantage they gain is a lots of google hits for their brands. This may pull shoppers in their direction. Possibly.

The other potential advantage they seek may be to damage competing brands.
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 10:31 AM

 Quote:
I think this is restating the obvious, but most people here—the ones with our "dopey" noms de guerre—don't feel it's wise (or even safe) to use our real names. I'm sure the only thing most of us want to hide is our full names, for the very practical reason that there are a lot of nuts out there. Most of us say things from time to time that someone, somewhere for some reason will find controversial, and it's as easy to make enemies as friends on these here Internets.

[/b]
Thank you Stephen for making this sane observation. One could flip John's sweeping slur and say that anyone who posts with a clear identity here is simply interested in calling attention to herself/himself, whether for piano biz related rea$ons or simply from a 'here I am, look at me' perspective. To generalize in that direction would not be right either.

Just a general comment on the festivities here.

The forum has rules. Pianomadam has admitted to breaking the rules. She has also expressed a desire to remain here and to be given a second chance. Ken Knapp is the moderator of this forum. He works with other moderators and the owner. It is their call as to how to deal with those who break the rules.

I can't exactly figure out what the reason is that this morality play keeps piling up the pages. At this point is seems like some people are queueing up just for another chance to stomp on a dead insect lying on the pavement. I mean what's with the continual stream of Pinocchio images?

Or maybe this is a wake that is being well-attended beyond all expectations because enemies of the deceased have traveled great distances to pay their disrespects.

I really don't think anyone here should want the mods to make a decision based on how many hooded or unhooded faces and lit torches can be seen at the castle gate. We are all better-served if they use their best judgment based on rules and precedent in punishment whether we agree with any individual decision or not. They operate from a frame of reference that is far wider than anything we have.
Posted by: DanLaura Larson

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 10:33 AM

Mark, how can we know that Pianomadam is even a piano professional since she keeps hiding behind anonymity?

And I don't begrudge any sales falling to our dealers who do disclose their personal and professional identities. Many of those dealers give a lot of very useful information.

Dan
Posted by: Mark...

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 10:40 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by DanLaura Larson:
Mark, how can we know that Pianomadam is even a piano professional since she keeps hiding behind anonymity?

And I don't begrudge any sales falling to our dealers who do disclose their personal and professional identities. Many of those dealers give a lot of very useful information.

Dan [/b]
I guess I should of said anyone playing these silly games having much effect on piano sales to any great extent. And when I say this I am referring to piano branding, not the Internet sales mess from PSS. Even though I could never buy a piano I didn't actually play...
Posted by: WillisWill

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:14 AM

It seems to me there are a lot of people on the forum that are put off/annoyed with S&S marketing tactics. Whether it's the assertion that Concert D's are better than (Bosie/Blunther/Fazioli/M&H etc...) and that's why 99% of concert artist perform exclusively on them, or that essex/boston are superior to because they are "made by Steinway" unlike yammie, kawai etc...Some question whether this aggressive marketing slides into deception.

PianoMadam seems to embody the all the worst adjectives attributed to S&S's marketing program, and now its been caught red-footed (err, red handed).

To the extent S&S cares what is said about it on this forum, it would seem to me that they would want to publicly distance themselves from this type of behavior
Posted by: piqué

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:33 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
For crying out loud, who doesn't tout their own product once in a while?
this is CLEARLY against the rules and antithetical to what PW is here for.

 Quote:
often enough, I am helping others make a decision on the pianos they have presented,
your kind of help is not what people need.

 Quote:
Do you have some agenda here...let's be honest! [/b]
yes, let's be honest. YOU are the one with the agenda. i sincerely hope you and all of your incarnations are banned. for good.
Posted by: windsound

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:38 AM

 Quote:
No surprise, my most vocal opponents from the distant and recent past (e.g. Pianodad, windsound, Rod, Steve Cohen, honkytonk, Bear1, etc...) are leading the present witch hunt to oust me from this forum.
Come on, I never want to oust Pianomadam from this forum but she or he broke rules by her/himself.

I have repeated my point, whoever tries to promote Essex, Boston over other brands like Yamaha and Kawai with biased info. will eventually damage not only Essex, Boston but also the name of Steinway.
Posted by: U S A P T

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:48 AM

I don't think pianomadam should be banned. She adds a little bourgeois je ne sais pas to the Steinway brand -- kind of cuts through the fancy-pants lingo that Steinway uses to make the brand sound more accesible to people who live in trailers or who buy cars off of "instant credit" car lots.

I've said before that I don't think she is actually a woman and that she probably DOES NOT represent Steinway. If she's anything in person like she is on line, she's probably a terrible representative of the brand and her/his sales are probably in the toilet.
Posted by: U S A P T

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:49 AM

I still would like her take on Cristofori too. . .
Posted by: WillisWill

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:49 AM

Speaking of witch-hunts, did you know that PianoMadam turned my M&H A into a Betsy Ross Spinet?

[incredulous looks]

It got better...
Posted by: Roger Ransom

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:53 AM

Wow, what fun!

and people wonder why I read PianoWorld Forums!
Posted by: U S A P T

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:56 AM

At least i have this to look at. My thermometer says -10 just 24" from my toes.
Posted by: Beacon Chris

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 12:08 PM

PianoMadam,

My piano store is indicated on my profile page. My signature line does not reference it because I'm not here to advertise. I hardly even talk about the brands I carry. I'm here for fun.

I don't use my name as my screen name because of my concert career. Good reasons for this.

If you want to know who I am read this:

http://www.dispeker.com/page/pfund.html

If you decide to visit my store in the future, please bring your pianist, a headshot and bio. Thanks... we'll call you.

BC ;\)
Posted by: honkytonk

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 12:16 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
Very well, Apple. I'm too tired to argue any more. I do stand by what I said previously, though. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, as they say. No surprise, my most vocal opponents from the distant and recent past (e.g. Pianodad, windsound, Rod, Steve Cohen, honkytonk, Bear1, etc...) are leading the present witch hunt to oust me from this forum.
It goes to show their true vitriol for the brand I represent. [/b]
I have great respect for the brand you represent, and I think anyone who knows much about pianos feels the same way. When I started my current sales job, one of my first calls was to Steinway, and I'm proud to call them one of my customers.

To all the people who keep commenting about how Pianomadam has damaged Steinway's name, keep in mind that she doesn't work for Steinway.

She's just a lonely rookie salesman in the back of an empty showroom. She's desperately trying to justify her $1500 draw and hoping she covers it so she doesn't have to pay it back the next month. Lacking the experience or savvy to creatively build a customer base, she gets on the old internets between smoke breaks and looks for Marks on Pianoworld.

People here have cut her way more slack than she deserves, but we've always been a trusting bunch. She's just one of many sockies that have trolled around here.

Finally, people have speculated on whether this behavior can be effective. In my opinion, the answer is yes. Consider a scenario where a customer comes in to the good Madam's shop and asks about Boston compared to Kawai. After hearing the "Steinway-Designed", "investment" and "no plastic parts" pitches, the customer is still skeptical, and mentions that he's been reading on online forum where people are expressing different views. Or, Pianomadam may even point them to this forum and encourage them to ask their questions here. Pianomadam can then attempt to manipulate the customer with her different sockies.

Pianomadam, you really should find another job.
At the very core of success in sales is credibility and honesty, and you have neither.
Posted by: Beacon Chris

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 12:17 PM

Madam,

LOL, I just reread your post to me and I think I was mistaken as to your meaning - the "you" in your post was not "me" rather the universal "you".

Sorry - I thought you were accusing me of not indicating my position in the industry. (underscoring the importance of grammer)

Still, if you do come, I'll still need a bio and headshot.

And by the way, I for one am still confused with regards to your gender???? \:D

BC
Posted by: Roger Ransom

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 12:20 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Beacon Chris:
PianoMadam,
If you want to know who I am read this:

http://www.dispeker.com/page/pfund.html
[/b]
Carmina Burana is mine and my wife's favorite work. We have attended it anywhere we see it advertised within a reasonable distance. We have seen many different productions with no real favorites. It must be awesome to be such an important part of it.
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 12:33 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Beacon Chris:
(underscoring the importance of grammer)
[/b]
That's grammar, Chris. Grammar!

.
.
.
.

\:D
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 12:49 PM

awewsome Chris!
Posted by: sophial

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 01:07 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by honkytonk:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
Very well, Apple. I'm too tired to argue any more. I do stand by what I said previously, though. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, as they say. No surprise, my most vocal opponents from the distant and recent past (e.g. Pianodad, windsound, Rod, Steve Cohen, honkytonk, Bear1, etc...) are leading the present witch hunt to oust me from this forum.
It goes to show their true vitriol for the brand I represent. [/b]
I have great respect for the brand you represent, and I think anyone who knows much about pianos feels the same way. When I started my current sales job, one of my first calls was to Steinway, and I'm proud to call them one of my customers.

To all the people who keep commenting about how Pianomadam has damaged Steinway's name, keep in mind that she doesn't work for Steinway.

She's just a lonely rookie salesman in the back of an empty showroom. She's desperately trying to justify her $1500 draw and hoping she covers it so she doesn't have to pay it back the next month. Lacking the experience or savvy to creatively build a customer base, she gets on the old internets between smoke breaks and looks for Marks on Pianoworld.

People here have cut her way more slack than she deserves, but we've always been a trusting bunch. She's just one of many sockies that have trolled around here.

Finally, people have speculated on whether this behavior can be effective. In my opinion, the answer is yes. Consider a scenario where a customer comes in to the good Madam's shop and asks about Boston compared to Kawai. After hearing the "Steinway-Designed", "investment" and "no plastic parts" pitches, the customer is still skeptical, and mentions that he's been reading on online forum where people are expressing different views. Or, Pianomadam may even point them to this forum and encourage them to ask their questions here. Pianomadam can then attempt to manipulate the customer with her different sockies.

Pianomadam, you really should find another job.
At the very core of success in sales is credibility and honesty, and you have neither. [/b]
great points, honkytonk!

Pianomadam, the idea that you "represent" Steinway is ludicrous and insulting to true professionals like Bob Snyder. What you represent is sneaky opportunism. I have no doubt that you'd turn around and trash the Essex and any other product you've touted around here if you were hired by another company. Please stop talking as if you actually cared about Steinway because clearly you don't or you would not be doing things that could reflect badly on them. This is about you. You need to leave the premises.

Sophia
Posted by: mikhailoh

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 01:11 PM

My gosh there is a lot of philosophizing and handwringing over a very simple issue.

A liar and a cheat who is clearly in the industry has been found out. One of the tenets of PW is the ability for folks to come and get honest, relatively unbiased advice. Lots of industry folks here manage to provide just that. It is no longer possible for Pianomadam to add value to this forum. Not that she ever did in any reasonable proportion to her pitching.

The rules have been clear for years. They now simply need to be enforced.
Posted by: rodmichael

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 01:38 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by John Pels:
I don't know gang. all this pretense to outrage is just a little bit disingenuous. You have thousands of folks hiding behind one dopey screen name after another, and when one finally is outed as a "pretender" everyone is in a snit. I contribute to a bunch of forums non piano related, and everyone posts using their real name. Seemingly we never have these issues. I tend to be an old school type guy where "my name is my bond" or something to that effect. It seems to me that if you have nothing to hide, your real name should suffice. Otherwise, I am skeptical of EVERY post I read where a real name is not attached. Monica Kern is Monica Kern, Rich Gallasini is Rich Gallasini, Rod Verhnjak is Rod Verhnjak, John Pels is John Pels, and Ken Knapp is Ken Knapp. This sort of thing likely happens a hundred times a day on this type of forum. Feigned outrage is...well...feigned. What can any reasonable person expect when you have adults playing "let's pretend". Sheesh!!! [/b]
Well, I must say I'm a bit on the side of Mr. Pels here, at least with regard to all the expressed outrage and 10 pages of it!!! Some people posting 5, 10, or 20 times. I can only respond: Get a life. Move on. Get over it.

If anyone with serious questions went out and bought an Essex piano solely on the basis of PianoMadam's surreptitious posts, not bothering to digest any of the other countless threads that discuss important considerations for a piano purchase, I would say they deserve whatever they get, perhaps something OK since I know nothing about Essex pianos.
Posted by: Sammae

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 01:52 PM

With regards to previous posts from new members that feel a bit of shock over this:

I am also a new member, and have spent too many hours over the past few days going through the boards. I wrote about my self on the "lurkers" thread on the pianists board,
New memebers and lurkers
so from there you would know that I'm looking to purchase a piano in the next few months. I don't spend a lot of time on forums and I tend to be a little naive. I was taking way too much of what I've been reading on here as an honest truth. Until last night, when I read the thread Essex EUP-123E and I finally got JUST a little suspicious...
I'm so thankful to Ken for changing the subject line of this post, as it caught my attention to get me to read it. I know it's partially my fault for being so naive, but people like Pianomadam can be all too influential when it comes to newbies like me that don't know the background of this forum!

With all that being said, HA! to you for getting caught... This has definitely been a too-funny thread to read and a good kick in the butt for me! I'll see you all around! ;\)
Posted by: whippen boy

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 02:34 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by John Pels:
I tend to be an old school type guy where "my name is my bond" or something to that effect. It seems to me that if you have nothing to hide, your real name should suffice. Otherwise, I am skeptical of EVERY post I read where a real name is not attached. Monica Kern is Monica Kern, Rich Gallasini is Rich Gallasini, Rod Verhnjak is Rod Verhnjak, John Pels is John Pels, and Ken Knapp is Ken Knapp.
Yeah, or so they say. \:D

If I told you my real name was John Smith, would you trust me any more?

My point is ... just because someone says it is so, doesn't make it so ... unless they have additional proof to back up what they say.
Posted by: LisztAddict

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 02:38 PM

I can't trust that whippen boy. People in a piano forum say he is an organist, and people in an organ forum say he is a pianist. And he might be too old to be a "boy". \:D
Posted by: whippen boy

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 02:41 PM

\:D

And John Smith is my name. Really.
Posted by: lilylady

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 02:52 PM

Well, I have heard that it might be John, but Smith?

Do you think that we are that gullible?

(oooh....on the other hand...maybe we are!)

Posted by: whippen boy

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 03:04 PM

\:\)
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 03:44 PM

let's have a code, perhaps **** in a row (just incongruously interspersed in our response)

to convey a 'sockpuppet heads up'.

let the cheap mofos pay for their own advertizing.
Posted by: DanLaura Larson

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 04:17 PM

Here's another classic thread. "Steinway Character Assasination!"

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/21888.html

Started by L1037, but it took Pianomadam 5 pages to chime in. Maybe not a connection here, but up to this point was an all time low for the madam when she eventually slurs Glenn Gould accusing him of basically whoring for Yamaha by giving a paid endorsement.

Dan
Posted by: curry

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 04:18 PM

Good one Apple. So true.
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 04:24 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by DanLaura Larson:
Pianomadam, here is a thread started by jman37 where he praises Boston at the expense of trashing Kawai. You join in on page 3 to cast subtle aspersions on Kawai actions. A little later on Turandot accuses you of tag teaming with jman37.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/24913.html

Rod already linked this thread where you tag teamed with L1037, but here it is again

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/21749.html

Here's an interesting thread that doesn't trash the competition. You start the thread by asking which line the reader would rather represent, Yamaha or Kawai. The first response is by jman37 hijacking the thread (planned perhaps?) to suggest Boston.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/24927.html#000001

Dan [/b]
--Unbelievable. I feel like I'm reading the script for "Conspiracy Theory". And, THOSE were your "examples" for how I have supposedly trashed the competition? Wow! You are hurting in defending your argument....Me=1, You=0.
Posted by: DanLaura Larson

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 04:27 PM

Madam, how deliciously ironic that you were already caught in a conspiracy on this thread. Nice attempt at deflection.

Dan
Posted by: lilylady

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 04:29 PM

RE:

Me=1, You=0.

You have got to be kidding.

Your testosterone is showing.

KEN....

FRANK....

You, PM, are bringing out the worst in many of us. Is that the game plan? Are you enjoying this?
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 04:31 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
Me=1, You=0. [/b]


I don't think the defendant gets to be the judge, too.

Steven
Posted by: windsound

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 04:54 PM

I have no idea who L1037 and jman37 are but their posts make me feel unconfortable and I ma highly suspicious that some biased information and evaluation which describe Essex and Boston are better choice than Yamaha and Kawai are intentionally spread.
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 05:01 PM

Still waitin' for the examples of "trashing the competition" and all the other injurious posts I have supposedly made. Seems like a lot of fluff being thrown around and sentiments really rooted in an anti-Steinway agenda than genuineness. You know who you are and now that you have your opportunity you bask in over-generalizations and
"what-if" scnearios. I'm not trying to poke fun nor trying to downplay the mistake I made, but I am serious in asking for verification to these claims.
Posted by: Fanny

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 05:17 PM

Pianomadam, you cannot be serious. In addition to being a liar, you are just plain stupid. Give it up.
Posted by: Pianomadam

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 05:30 PM

Hello, Fanny.

Name-calling and personal attacks are not verifiable proof.
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 05:35 PM

just go away pianomadam

you've done enough damage already
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 05:40 PM

Also, PianiMadam said that we "should not throw out the baby with the bathwater."

Banning her wouldn't have any significant downside. I have seen no contribution from her that wasn't said by others. Her positions were far from unique contributions. In fact, in many cases they were sales crap.

Not banning her has a significant downside. She has eroded the integrity of Piano World, making others such as L1037 suspect. She originaly claimed to be a Jordan Kits employee, damaging their reputation. Andm not banning her sets a bad example for others who would use socks.
Posted by: GeePee

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 05:40 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
..... I'm not trying to poke fun nor trying to downplay the mistake I made, .... [/b]
Pianomadam,

a "mistske", is an unintentional act .... like playing the wrong note on the piano (or as I've just discovered .. spelling the word "mistake" incorrectly).

What you did was a considered, intentional and deliberate decision to deceive.

I'm all for giving people a second chance no matter what they've done, however it was suggested many pages ago following your apology, that you disclose your true identity. Had you bothered to do that and maybe even named the store where you work, then I believe this thread would have come to a grinding halt, as most here would then have accepted your apology as genuine and sincere.

It's getting too late now.
Posted by: ProdigalPianist

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 05:45 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by whippen boy:
 Quote:
Originally posted by John Pels:
I tend to be an old school type guy where "my name is my bond" or something to that effect. It seems to me that if you have nothing to hide, your real name should suffice. Otherwise, I am skeptical of EVERY post I read where a real name is not attached. Monica Kern is Monica Kern, Rich Gallasini is Rich Gallasini, Rod Verhnjak is Rod Verhnjak, John Pels is John Pels, and Ken Knapp is Ken Knapp.
Yeah, or so they say. \:D

If I told you my real name was John Smith, would you trust me any more?

My point is ... just because someone says it is so, doesn't make it so ... unless they have additional proof to back up what they say. [/b]
I don't see why we would have to use our real names on an internet forum (which many technology professionals discourage anyway). Many people have valid reasons to do so that have nothing to do with bad motives related to piano posting.

I think the real question is whether your posts are honest show and you to be an authentic person. If someone took the trouble to read most posts of those of us who don't use our real names, it would not be horribly hard to figure out who we were.

I would hope the owners and administrators would take definitive action to deal with people who damage the credibility of this board as a resource...if for no other reason that damaging the board's credibility also damages the potential monetary value of advertising here. I am aware that Frank is always looking for ways for the board to support itself. If this is allowed to happen blatantly with no action to ban the offender(s), then the value of the information found here for the general public is suspect, and the monetary value of the board is also reduced.
Posted by: windsound

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 05:50 PM

Yes, you don't have to use your real name but the bottom line is one can not use sock puppet(s) and spread biased information.
Posted by: ftp

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 05:52 PM

Edit- on second thought the post seemed out of place.
Posted by: rustyfingers

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 06:01 PM

Hard to believe that this person has the temerity to get his/her back up in this defensive way when he or she should be slinking into the bushes in humiliation. Who cares about the rest of it?

This is accusing people of a witchhunt while standing over the cauldron.

I tell my kids this all the time: If you EVER lie to me, I will NEVER know when I can trust you.

The working assumption is a fraud is a fraud. I agree with apple. Give it up.
Posted by: birchy

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 06:08 PM

It is unlikely that people have been particularly influenced by PianoMadam's misleading sales pitches and half-truths on PianoWorld - or at least no more by the online medium than by receiving the same spiel in person at a dealership. If you believe this cr@p online, I would think you are even more likely to believe it when in person when the piano is glistening in front of you.

The people who should be truly angry at this situation are the Steinway, Boston and Essex dealers who by association look to be part of a very unprofessional group. I can't for a moment believe that this kind of behavior is standard practice amongst the S&S family. As a perceived leader in the marketplace, perhaps it is possible that some arrogance can creep in, but PianoMadam seems to take this self-absorption to a level of shamelessness that is fast becoming legendary. The longer this goes on, the more commercial damage is done within the piano community to the S&S retail distribution network.

If I was an executive with S&S or any affiliated retailer I would be pulling out all the stops to get this content off the internet (by going after PW to remove it) and locating the individual and firing her (or him - who knows anymore).

If a flim-flam Fuller-Brush rambling philosopher-preacher-tycoon-vapor warehouse-importer from NC can figure out how to get incriminating info off of PW, surely a multi-million dollar (and market leading) corporation with real lawyers can do the same thing. The fact that it doesn't seem to even be on the S&S network radar is just incredible to me.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 06:11 PM

Father,

Do you go off your meds again?

Go take the lithium!
Posted by: whippen boy

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 06:16 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by fathertopianist:
On a more ominous note, the CPS commented, "reports of Cylon sleeper socks who may not even know they are socks have been rumored to be in operation and at this time there is no known method of detection."
It's easy to detect a bad sock - he has holes in his story! \:D
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 06:44 PM

smelly too
Posted by: Roger Ransom

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 07:19 PM

When we are young and naive we tend to be shocked at some of the things people do or say. As we get older we learn to not be surprised at any of the depths people will stoop to, particularly when money and/or power are involved.

This sorry episode is no surprise to me as I have always looked critically on postings that seem to have a possible agenda. It started when I was curious as to why several dealers were promoting Estonia pianos constantly. One day I was casually browsing one of the dealers web sites and noticed a statement that - Estonia pianos are one of the favorite brands of people on the Piano World forums. AHA says I, now I understand, they are manipulating the forum for their own commercial purposes.

Ever since then I just read it all for entertainment value. I have learned over the years to reserve trust and belief to people I know VERY well and for a long time. that doesn't include very many people in the whole world.

Just my, sometimes cynical, observation.

It's fun to read though.
Posted by: Rickster

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 07:31 PM

Origionally posted by Roger:
 Quote:
Ever since then I just read it all for entertainment value. I have learned over the years to reserve trust and belief to people I know VERY well and for a long time. that doesn't include very many people in the whole world.
Wow, what a thread!

Since the philosophy is flying here, I’ll add my .02. In my life’s experiences I’ve learned that there are many “bluffers and bull-shooters” in this world (at least that is what I call them). Another large percentage of folks have an agenda they are pushing, trying to sell you something or otherwise have intentions of using you in some way for their own personal gain. There are few individuals who are genuine and sincere and in whom you can trust. It’s a shame there are so few of the latter.

Best regards,

Rick
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 07:36 PM

Nice taste in pianos, GeePee!

Whoops, shameless promotion. Well, at least I'm neither a sock nor a dealer. \:D

This thread is surely the energizer bunny today. It keeps going, and going, and going.

Just need Frank to come back and declare Pianomadam personae non gratae. Yes, that is written in the plural.
Posted by: Bob Newbie

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 08:16 PM

and I thought PW was a fun place \:\( ..I'd rather hear Rickster do his Elvis impersonation...on the pie anna.. \:D
Posted by: DarkGreenChocolate

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 08:50 PM

Mr. Cohen: please don't joke about (mental) illness, medications, etc. People die from this stuff (illness, not your joke).

PianoMadam and others: I don't think an apology is enough. Call me naive, but I take everything on the forum at face value, and don't enjoy having to do virtual detective work. Banning might be overdoing it, but some sort of sanction/punishment, like suspension and/or requirement of fuller identity disclosure, seems appropriate to me.
Posted by: Barbara G

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 09:08 PM

I agree that the rules should be enforced. It would be nice if everyone here had a real name associated with their registration with Piano World. Then when people are sock puppets it would be easy to know for sure. They would not have to use their real name on their posts, but Frank and the moderators could enforce the rules much better.

As for Piano Madam, she should leave.
Posted by: gutenberg

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 09:36 PM

Wow, this is like coming to a party late, only this is no party. I must add my vote to the enforcement camp though. Its enough to process the many different opinions here, but when fraud is established the offender must go.
Posted by: Terry C.

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 09:57 PM

Pianomadam,
I have been following this thread all day! In my Native American culture,i was taught to always try and find some good in someone. I have studied your responses all day,and have come to this conclusion! Your apology is not sincere! In one sentence you sounded truthfully sorry and then you came back with the vengence of a snake. In my culture ,people who are LIARS and CHEATS come back in their next life as a snake.Your forked tongue makes you a very good canidate for the snake that you are destined to become.I feel you have spread enough of your poisonous venom here on this forum.
With this being said,i wish you would have sincerly redeemed yourself and given me a chance to find something good in you!I hope instead of lashing out at people you have deceived,you can do some inner searching to realize that you were the one responsible for all of this outrage!Your greed got the best of you!
Suck it up and crawl out of this forum on your belly the way that any snake would do!
I cannot however ask you to leave without wishing you well and to hope (for your sake and your victims) that you get tired of being the snake that you are! Good luck!


Be well and happy,
Terry C. \:\)
Posted by: Ken Knapp

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 10:16 PM

Just so you all know, I have started a topic in the moderator forum to discuss appropriate action. My post points to this topic so all the moderators will have opportunity to read your thoughts.

Ken
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 10:16 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Terry C.:
Pianomadam,
I have been following this thread all day! In my Native American culture,i was taught to always try and find some good in someone. I have studied your responses all day,and have come to this conclusion! Your apology is not sincere! In one sentence you sounded truthfully sorry and then you came back with the vengence of a snake. In my culture ,people who are LIARS and CHEATS come back in their next life as a snake.Your forked tongue makes you a very good canidate for the snake that you are destined to become.I feel you have spread enough of your poisonous venom here on this forum.
With this being said,i wish you would have sincerly redeemed yourself and given me a chance to find something good in you!I hope instead of lashing out at people you have deceived,you can do some inner searching to realize that you were the one responsible for all of this outrage!Your greed got the best of you!
Suck it up and crawl out of this forum on your belly the way that any snake would do!
I cannot however ask you to leave without wishing you well and to hope (for your sake and your victims) that you get tired of being the snake that you are! Good luck!


Be well and happy,
Terry C. \:\) [/b]
a stunning example of verbosity Terry!

well done
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 10:27 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Knapp:
Just so you all know, I have started a topic in the moderator forum to discuss appropriate action. My post points to this topic so all the moderators will have opportunity to read your thoughts.

Ken [/b]
You gave THIS as homework!
Posted by: Ken Knapp

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 10:39 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Knapp:
Just so you all know, I have started a topic in the moderator forum to discuss appropriate action. My post points to this topic so all the moderators will have opportunity to read your thoughts.

Ken [/b]
You gave THIS as homework! [/b]
Maybe we could call it required reading? \:D

Ken
Posted by: pno

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:09 PM

Are you guys really that bored? Get a life!
Posted by: Rod Verhnjak

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:10 PM

Posted by: Terry C.

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:21 PM

LOL :rolleyes: Very funny Rod! \:D


Be well and happy,
Terry C. \:\)
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:30 PM

Ken,

A comment and a question. First the comment.

If this thread is to be the basis for moderator discussion of a violation, I think it should focus on the first two pages beginning with the OP and ending with pianomadam's statement that she screwed up at the end of the second page.

I say that because rules should apply evenly. They shouldn't apply or not apply based on the popularity level of the person who has broken them.

The nine additional thread pages prove conclusively that there exists a lot of pent-up bad feeling toward pianomadam based on her posting style and post content. That posting style and content was not judged by you at any point to be a violation, so personally I don't think it is any basis for a decision regarding violation of the rules.

Now, I realize this is walking a fine line because pianomadam's lashing out at her critics in the later pages makes questionable her claim that she was appalled and ashamed of her actions and also calls into question her intent going forward. However, lashing out at one's critics, particularly when so much of the criticism is vulgar and very personal, would not seem in any way to be a violation. JMO

The question

I remember early in pianomadam's stay here that she was accused of violating standards of disclosure. At that time, you came onto a thread and defended her right to limited disclosure.

Disclosure has been a hot button topic here, but there are precedents. Mr.Honky Tonk (whose name I would imagine is not that) existed here for years with less disclosure than pianomadam. He did not even show a brand affiliation, only that he was in piano sales. He was at times a polarizing figure here, to be found in the center of many controversies. M&B has declared himself to be a dealer and stated two brand lines represented without any disclosure of his dealership.


Here's the question (at long last \:D ).

Do you routinely check new memberships of industry professionals to see if in fact they are who and what they claim to be. Have you ever checked pianomadam's personal data to verify that she is connected to S&S? Have you ever checked M&B's personal data to verify that he is a dealer representing M&H and Kawai. I ask this because many here would say that pianomadam has done more (even without this incident) to make the S&S image more negative than it would be without her presence and many would say that M&B has done the same for Kawai and M&H by indirectly linking them to his many inflammatory posts attacking piano brands and piano retailers.
Posted by: Monica K.

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:40 PM

What I hear you saying here, turandot, is that you think Ken should listen to and heed YOUR opinion about how this situation should be handled but disregard entirely OTHER people's opinions. :rolleyes:

Thanks, Ken, for the update. I would hope that the moderators read the entire thread. 11 pages (and counting) may be overkill, but there are some excellent points made in it, and I definitely think pianomadam's subsequent behavior after her apology is relevant when weighing the sincerity of that apology.
Posted by: James Maxwell

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:40 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Knapp:
Just so you all know, I have started a topic in the moderator forum to discuss appropriate action. My post points to this topic so all the moderators will have opportunity to read your thoughts.[/b]
Ken,

I would think that by now you have at least determined via the IP address whether PianoMadam and JordanKittsGuy are one and the same person, as this is not difficult to do. If the answer is positive, the only right thing to do, IMO, is to hand over her IP address to Bob Snyder, as she has disgraced S&S and its reputation through her despicable behavior on this forum. Meanwhile, expel her from this forum for good, if you care about the reputation of it.

If Bob Snyder is a man of integrity, as I believe him to be, he will find out whether she is an S&S dealer in the DC area as JordanKittsGuy originally claimed to be, and which one. Bob can then deal with her privately in a professional manner. It is then up to Bob to decide whether/what he wants to tell the rest of us what actions he has taken.
Posted by: Jeff Bauer

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:46 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by James:
Bob can then deal with her privately in a professional manner. It is then up to Bob to decide whether/what he wants to tell the rest of us what actions he has taken. [/b]
In all fairness to Bob, James, it's not his job to discipline an employee of a dealer that merely sells their product.

If Steinway wants to step in for whatever reason, it would be whoever is the local Steinway wholesale rep for the dealer to speak with the owner of the piano company. But in the end, it would be an internal matter between the person behind PM's avatar and the HR department of the company she reps.

No reason for an entire retail store/chain to burn for one person's actions, at least in this case.
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/16/09 11:49 PM

 Quote:
What I hear you saying here, turandot, is that you think Ken should listen to and heed YOUR opinion about how this situation should be handled but disregard entirely OTHER people's opinions.

Why on earth would I choose to state your opinion instead of mine, even if I knew what your opinion was. I don't have all that many posts on this thread. Most of mine occurred before and at the time the bubble burst. I was one of those responding to the phony OP. My response to the OP would have been identical had it been genuine or phony.

My opinion has been consistent. Rules apply, not emotional statements that follow. Should the decision be based on one member's description of pianomadam as a slithering snake? As a whore? Should it be based on emotional responses by her to charges like that?

If your opinion is different from mine, state it. Don't expect me to do it for you. I don't even know what it is.
Posted by: James Maxwell

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 12:01 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Bauer:
If Steinway wants to step in for whatever reason, it would be whoever is the local Steinway wholesale rep for the dealer to speak with the owner of the piano company. But in the end, it would be an internal matter between the person behind PM's avatar and the HR department of the company she reps. [/b]
I do not think there is disagreeemnt here. It is not Ken's job to find out whether she is an S&S dealer or not, but it is Bob's, who can and should find out, and have a word with the dealer that she works for. On the other hand, if she has no connection with S&S, Bob can make a statement in this forum to that effect as well.
Posted by: Supply

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 12:06 AM

I must say it surprises me very much to hear that a Loya Jirga has to be called in so that the Council of Grand Poohbas can discuss whether or not anything should be done when someone has been caught, and has admitted to, breaking the most basic rules here.

Is there no precedent, no MO? Nothing inpplace? No exit plan????
How long do you have to deliberate a drop kick?

Deliberation to me underscores that maybe, just maybe, there is a chance of breaking all the rules in the book and getting away with it.

Back to reason for a moment:
I think the least that should happen during the deliberations is a suspension of forum privileges of the party who pleaded guilty. This thread has seen too much attack and counter-attack already. Put an end to it, I say.
Posted by: U S A P T

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 12:19 AM

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/24842.html#000006

In this post, PianoMadam identifies herself as a Steinway dealer. I'd think it would be fairly simple to figure out how many female-owned Steinway dealerships there are. Probably very few.

Of course, I don't think that pianomadam is really a woman but she's an interesting shill no doubt.
Posted by: Diane...

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 12:43 AM

Wow, this was a very interesting read!

Just have to say congratulations to Beacon Chris! and thank you for being so quick and intelligent in catching this!

Think he should be voted the next "James Bond"!
You've got my vote!
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 01:58 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Supply:
I must say it surprises me very much to hear that a Loya Jirga has to be called in so that the Council of Grand Poohbas can discuss whether or not anything should be done when someone has been caught, and has admitted to, breaking the most basic rules here.

Is there no precedent, no MO? Nothing in place? No exit plan????
How long do you have to deliberate a drop kick?

Deliberation to me underscores that maybe, just maybe, there is a chance of breaking all the rules in the book and getting away with it.

Back to reason for a moment:
I think the least that should happen during the deliberations is a suspension of forum privileges of the party who pleaded guilty. This thread has seen too much attack and counter-attack already. Put an end to it, I say. [/b]
This is it in a nutshell. The admission of guilt was the time to put the muzzle on pianomadam until a decision could be reached. It would not have completely eliminated the bloodlust, but it would have controlled the frenzy. Keeping her under wraps would also have prevented her from making the worst possible strategic decision: to launch a counterattack.

The thought that this might be decided by a show of member vitriol has caused me to personally question if I want to post in the piano forum at all. The obvious virtue and exalted high moral standards of some of the membership seem completely out of whack with the everyday world in which I live. The possibility that there is no precedent to guide a swift decision and that options might include everything from getting out of jail free to outright expulsion is the reason I am so concerned with mob mentaility. If nothing firm and fixed applies, then overcooked emotions might fill the void.

If madam's violation means termination according to the rules, I see no problem with it. Nor does she. In this thread she is on the record saying that she would deserve it. What she does not deserve is to be left twisting in the wind to suffer further humiliation while the poohbahs find an option which will satisfy the masses.
Posted by: scepticalforumguy

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 03:20 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:
Are you a little lost lamb who wandered over here from the ABF? Maybe you're thinking of buying a piano? Let this thread be a warning to you--like a bloody head on a stick sharpened at both ends. You've crossed into savage country now. This is where Satan's dearest spawn, piano salesmen, hang their chain saws and hockey masks when they're not butchering little lambs like you.

You see, piano salesmen aren't born and suckled by loving mothers as you and me are, in nurseries with teddy bear wallpaper and squishy-squeaky toys. No. They grow from airborne spores that land in dank corners and suck blood from unsuspecting creatures that happen upon them. Some of these spores become politicians, others become investment bankers, but those that land in the darkest, dankest, and vilest corners become piano salesmen. There they learn dark arts, like shape shifting and IP manipulation, that let them become whoever they want, all the better to entice then squeeze their prey.

Tomorrow we may learn Piano Madam actually sells Walters and Yamahas and fabricated this whole ruse to discredit Essex. We don't know. This is Piano Land! There's no truth, only an eternity of loose tuning pins and cracked sound boards if we listen to the wrong lies.

Sometimes I wish I'd taken up the ukulele. [/b]
Holy smokes! This is probably the funniest person on this forum. Truth is a bit ugly sometimes...
Posted by: gryphon

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 03:26 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Monica K.:
But I still think she should be banned, or perhaps put in Frank's infamous time-out chair for a nice long spell, simply to reinforce the message that this kind of trickery is unacceptable at PW.[/b]
I'm only four pages into this twelve page thread, but I'll respond anyway.

Monica, you're kidding, right?

I exposed PM as an unscrupulous shill a year or two ago. Pretty sure others have as well. And as for your assertion that this kind of trickery is unacceptable here, I can only laugh out loud.

You cannot be serious.

This kind of trickery has ALWAYS been acceptable here. People who have railed against it the most have either been banned or left voluntarily.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 03:43 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by JF:
Although I'm brand new on this board, honestly, I think that for me to continue to have faith in the content here, I am going to want to hear from the administrators on these issues.

Have you all investigated this type of behavior? Have you all known, prior to pianomadam's "outing," that this type of behavior was going on? Have you any plans to now investigate, with the goal of stopping this type of behavior? Have you/will you investigate "clusters" of IP addresses organized to promote a particular brand or bash another? [/b]
Forget it. I pleaded with Frank before to make IP addresses available. There are successful forums with this feature enabled. Frank refused.

Sockpuppets have always been a problem here, and until recently it seems nobody gave a darn. Well, not nobody. It has always come up. I question why all of a sudden it seems to bother everyone? I mean, it's not like you didn't know this was going on all along, did you?

There are a couple of other things that I can't mention, for different reasons. But trust me (or not) there is even more.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 04:00 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
posters have been doing this for years...moderators don't squelch the fakers.. the best one can do is argue and and allude.[/b]
+100

I would reword this and say that "moderators refuse to squelch the fakers." Old-timers here, like apple, know this. It's the new people who get screwed, but who looks out for them? The management? No, they don't care. They have systematically refused to implement policies to combat this behavior, they have knowingly allowed it, they have stifled dissension using several arguments: they don't like the way you're stating something (therefore erase your post and let the unaware consumer get screwed out of thousands of dollars), they are afraid of lawsuits with no legal basis (therefore erase your post and let the unaware consumer get screwed out of thousands of dollars), or other reasons (therefore erase your post and let the unaware consumer get screwed out of thousands of dollars).

This is a Piano Forum. There is a saying, "You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts." This place is often devoid of facts.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 04:03 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Supply:
I must say it surprises me very much to hear that a Loya Jirga has to be called in so that the Council of Grand Poohbas can discuss whether or not anything should be done when someone has been caught, and has admitted to, breaking the most basic rules here.

Is there no precedent, no MO? Nothing inpplace? No exit plan????
How long do you have to deliberate a drop kick?

Deliberation to me underscores that maybe, just maybe, there is a chance of breaking all the rules in the book and getting away with it.
[/b]
There may be some genuine concern on the part of the owner/management of pianoworld that if socks are enforced against that in time only about eight people will still post and the forum will dry up and blow away...After all, during 90% of the time the PSS affair (which is comparable) was in play, the only editing of posts and enforcement was against the critics of the crooks (forcing the hand of the moderators with threats), or those who made the real names of their accomplices public, not the crooks themselves. People sent TW cash for pianos they would never receive based on misinformation that PW protected and facts that PW repressed because PW erased the relevant information under pressure from the PSS tagteam. For all we know, the largest revenue stream from pianoworld could come from those who are paying under the table for the privelege to be able to spread disinformation without enforcement on a forum that looks and feels authentic; made authentic by the contributions of you and me and others.

Just like the National Enquirer and other quality media for the masses, controversy and the regurgitation of blatant lies and absurdities sells and keeps people coming back for entertainment. No one believes most of the stuff posted here anyway...do they? As pianomadam would say (and turandot apparently would agree), "Why throw the baby out with the bath water?"

I know that this affair has again reminded me that I waste way too much of my precious time slumming around these parts being earnest in the company of crooks, charlatans and chimeras.

Perhaps most of us would be better off kicking the pianoworld habit spending our time practicing behind the piano keyboard and away from the computer keyboards...
Posted by: gryphon

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 04:23 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
sweeping generalizations such as "your 100s of self-serving posts" I'm more encouraged to stay on. Sweeping generalizations are more harmful to the general public than informed opinions/facts[/b]
When have you ever given an informed opinion or fact? You've posted pretty much nothing but a tissue of lies covered with a gauze of plausibility since you joined.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 04:26 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
That would be convenient for you, apple[/b]
How would that be convenient for apple? She doesn't sell pianos. She isn't in the business. She was right, quit now before you destroy your reputation further, which frankly isn't possible. But let's pretend that it is. In some fantasy world you could actually sink lower.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 04:33 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
i don't have an agenda... i try not to exploit pianoworld.[/b]
 Quote:
my most vocal opponents from the distant and recent past (e.g. Pianodad, windsound, Rod, Steve Cohen, honkytonk, Bear1, etc...) are leading the present witch hunt to oust me from this forum.
It goes to show their true vitriol for the brand I represent. [/b]
I own an Estonia 190. The best piano I ever played was a Steinway. I think you should be banned.

Any questions?
Posted by: gryphon

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 04:42 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Genaa:
This was a pre-meditated, deliberate conscious choice on your part, which insults the intelligence of all readers and, to me at least, suggests that you consider yourself somehow above us. That is far worse than lying, it is the worst kind of dishonesty such as practiced by fraudsters.


one premeditated deception or one hundred - you are still a dishonest person, end of story. [/b]
+1
 Quote:
The most useful contribution you can make to these forums now is to take your animal-cunning deceitful low-brow little self away and go crawl under a far-away rock where unpleasant creatures such as yourself should reside.

In short I'll give you a clue...."2 words, seven letters, starts with F, ends with F" [/b]
+1
Posted by: gryphon

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 04:55 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
yes, let's be honest. YOU are the one with the agenda. i sincerely hope you and all of your incarnations are banned. for good. [/b]
+1

Of course, I have already said this. I've only responded because pique, you owe me bikini pictures. Oh, wait, that was jodi. Never mind. But you still owe be backpacking pictures. Bikini pictures would also be appreciated, though.

Glad to see you are doing well!
Posted by: Terry C.

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 06:23 AM

Turnadot,
If it looks like a snake,slithers like a snake,it's a snake!! I could make an apology for my harsh remarks,but then i would be stooping to the level of pianomadam with an unsincere apology! There shall be
no such apology from me! For quite some time i held out hope that she would redeem herself!However being the snake that she is,she remains under her rock and occasionally lashes her forked tongue out in defense of her deceitful ways!
Pianomadam: Slither,slither slither! Poof! Be gone!


Be well and happy,
Terry C. \:\)
Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 07:16 AM

Like John Pels, turandot, and a few others I feel that there is a pretty big overshoot going on right now.

From a practical point of view, the biggest impact of PM's behavior on PW is that piano buyers cannot do comparison shopping.

Compare that to the very widespread and longstanding practice of pricing obfuscation in the piano trade. The result is the same: piano buyers cannot do comparison shopping. Same methods too: anonymous dealers posting deceitful pricing (and other) information. Same wilful intent too.

None of us condone none of such behaviors, but let's keep some perspectives.

Edit: I am not saying I am against banning. I am not saying I am in favour of banning. I am saying the limelight is glaring.
Posted by: Ken Knapp

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 07:24 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
Here's the question (at long last \:D ).

Do you routinely check new memberships of industry professionals to see if in fact they are who and what they claim to be. Have you ever checked pianomadam's personal data to verify that she is connected to S&S? Have you ever checked M&B's personal data to verify that he is a dealer representing M&H and Kawai. I ask this because many here would say that pianomadam has done more (even without this incident) to make the S&S image more negative than it would be without her presence and many would say that M&B has done the same for Kawai and M&H by indirectly linking them to his many inflammatory posts attacking piano brands and piano retailers. [/b]
Unfortunately, the only way that can be done is if the member chooses to reveal his/her true personal information. Most PW members do not choose to do so, so there is nothing to verify.

Many years ago I was a member of a bbs where you didn't get any posting access at all until you provided valid personal info about who you were and it was verified. There were special forums on it that you had to provide a copy of a photo ID in order to access.

As far as revealing the name of the business you work for, it is a tough call. If I attached the name of my full time employer to my posts I would be at the mercy of getting fired if I posted something they considered inappropriate and they found out. You'll notice that most of the dealers that post the business name OWN the business.

Ken
Posted by: Ken Knapp

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 07:44 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Supply:

Is there no precedent, no MO? Nothing inpplace? No exit plan????
How long do you have to deliberate a drop kick?

[/b]
Frank has to be the one to push the button to ban anyone and he's been at NAMM. Moderators cannot ban anyone. They can only recommend.

Ken
Posted by: SHPiano

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 08:14 AM

I was pretty blown away to learn of the deception. I guess I am naive, but in all of the fora I visit, I don't think I've seen sock-puppetry before (or I didn't recognize it).

Personally, I think the moderators should ban PM. Ideally, PM would do the right and honrable thing and ban herself. I read her apology and I accept it. However, there has to be consequences for bad conduct. (Not to go off on a tangent, but I think we in the US have seen a lot of people claiming to take "responsibility" for significant mistakes without there ever really being a consequence.)

I don't blame the moderators or Frank for any of this. I suspect folks like Ken are not in this for the joy of having power over others, but rather because like all of us, they're gaga over pianos. I my view, PM is wholly to blame - to blame for her own deceptive conduct and the opprobrium it brings but also to blame for putting Ken and others in what must be an uncomfortable position.

I am not claiming to be "holier than thou". We all make mistakes, seek atonement and hope for forgiveness. However, the fact that we may all sin sometimes should not paralyze us from enforcing the mores of our little community by censuring bad behavior.
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 08:19 AM

Frankly, I don't think much weight should be given to past precedent. I may not go as far as theJourney or Gryphon in condemning the place, though I must admit to sharing much of their analysis, but I do believe this place would function more smoothly and with less hostility if rules were clearer and were enforced.

Sock puppetry for commercial gain is poisonous. It degrades the information and breeds suspicion. The fact that some have gotten away with it in the past should not force anyone who is making these decisions to bow before that past history. From NOW ON we are free to declare people gone for behavior of this sort .....

PERSONAE NON GRATAE

...as I said before. This isn't some huge punishment. No one's civil rights are being abridged. Free speech isn't under threat. A clear signal is being sent, that's all.

I suspect we would have a more civil place if we could feel more confident that each avatar offered a singular point of view, and that violators of that trust would quickly be shown the door, permanently.

The fact that there are people here who have 'gotten away with it' in the past strikes me as a very weak rationale for merely slapping present and future miscreants on the wrist and telling to behave themselves. That is the path that rightly infuriates some of us. We CAN do better if we choose to.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 08:42 AM

If I'm late for work and drive 71 MPH rather than the speed limit of 70 MPH, that is not the same as if I gratuitously have an affair and have sex with someone other than my wife. All sins are not the same and deliberate deception should not be tolerated.

What are the downsides of banning PianoMadam? None. There is no child support or custody issues to worry about. What are the upsides to banning her? Integrity, which frankly I don't expect from this place. I've been a member too long to expect that.

What are the upsides of not banning PianoMadam? None. What are the downsides of not banning PianoMadam. Well, frankly none, because there is no expectation that this place is honest. That has been proven over and over and over and over and over again.

Sorry, Frank, but that is true and it has been pointed out to you over and over and over and over again, and you don't care. You refuse to do anything about it.
Posted by: tanjinjack

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 08:46 AM

Wow, I finally want to make a post in this sock puppet thread.

IMHO, banning PM will not help. The damage is done, to PW, to Steinway and any other relevant person.
I read an article about the Japanese attitude's. when a Japanese commits a mistake, he will not step down to show that he is responsible for the mistake. Instead, he tries his best to recover the damage done, a way to present his responsibility on the matter. Stepping down is, IMHO, a very irresponsible act as the damage has to be recovered by other people, and in PW case, the other members.

IMHO, we, or the mod, should ask PM to make a new post. In the new post, he/she should make an apology, make a statement about his/her intention to create a sock puppet and also include words that can let prospective/new members feel safe to post here. He/she should also try to reduce the damage to Steinway, and any other relevant authorities. He/she may not disclose his/her full identity, but I guess he/she should either reveal his/her location OR name, as a way to show his/her sincerity.

After that, only she can leave, or the mod can ban her. Anyway, if she does not intend to try to recover the damages, then I will be on the line to ban her.

Just my 2 cents from a young man.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 08:57 AM

Then you vote "ban" because PianoMadam will not do the things you listed. No way will she EVER do the things you listed.
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 09:05 AM

I'm having trouble grasping why we should not have a simple rule against sock puppetry. It's already supposedly forbidden, and everyone can accept that the practice is unethical. Just DO something. Declare perpetrators

personae non gratae.

Done.

take a stand.
Posted by: Beacon Chris

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 09:36 AM

Piano*Dad,

Or should I say "P*Daddy"

U R keepin' it real!

And no, I don't spell very gud.

BC

P.S. Go to NAMM for the day and look what happens to the thread!!!
Posted by: gryphon

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 09:51 AM

Piano*Dad, take a stand? Surely you jest. PM me and I'll tell you two other places to visit if integrity in a piano/keyboard forum is actually important to you. PW lost that a long time ago.
Posted by: U S A P T

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 09:54 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there could be some legal ramifications for Frank for providing much more than a place to post views, however scurrilous they may be at times.

PW IS self-policing. I think we can all agree on that.
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 09:59 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
Piano*Dad, take a stand? Surely you jest. PM me and I'll tell you two other places to visit if integrity in a piano/keyboard forum is actually important to you. PW lost that a long time ago. [/b]
I'm sure P*D isn't the only one interested. Would it be inappropriate to mention them by name or post links?

I don't understand why PM would not be banned. The fact that (s)he could come back under a new alias and IP, and the fact that all malevolent socks can't be detected and punished equally, doesn't mean someone should be let off the hook when caught in flagrante.

Steven
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 10:08 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Knapp:
 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
Here's the question (at long last \:D ).

Do you routinely check new memberships of industry professionals to see if in fact they are who and what they claim to be. Have you ever checked pianomadam's personal data to verify that she is connected to S&S? Have you ever checked M&B's personal data to verify that he is a dealer representing M&H and Kawai. I ask this because many here would say that pianomadam has done more (even without this incident) to make the S&S image more negative than it would be without her presence and many would say that M&B has done the same for Kawai and M&H by indirectly linking them to his many inflammatory posts attacking piano brands and piano retailers. [/b]
Unfortunately, the only way that can be done is if the member chooses to reveal his/her true personal information. Most PW members do not choose to do so, so there is nothing to verify.

Many years ago I was a member of a bbs where you didn't get any posting access at all until you provided valid personal info about who you were and it was verified. There were special forums on it that you had to provide a copy of a photo ID in order to access.

As far as revealing the name of the business you work for, it is a tough call. If I attached the name of my full time employer to my posts I would be at the mercy of getting fired if I posted something they considered inappropriate and they found out. You'll notice that most of the dealers that post the business name OWN the business.

Ken [/b]
Ken,

I'm confused. It was a while ago that I registered as a member here and my memory may be unclear, but my impression is that I needed to identify myself with some sort of personal information. That information included my true name and my personal Email. That information did not need to become a part of my tag here, but I think (unless my memory has failed me) that it was a part of the registration process.

In that sense I would assume there are two layers of disclosure: one to the forum administration which will remain private, and another to forum participants which is voluntary and will become a part of my posting signature if I so choose.

If I claim to be nothing more than a consumer hack, I see no reason that I should have to declare that in my post signature. In the absence of any resume-type information, people can assume that to be the case.

If, however, I were to declare that I was a retailer owner representing specific brands, I would think that such information should be verified before I be allowed to post here, especially if I were going to be allowed to declare THAT information in my signature. I have assumed this to be the case here. Otherwise, the potential for creating embarrassment to the professional community here through my behavior is unlimited, as is the potential that unwary consumers might attach too much significance to my opinions believing them to be the opinions of an informed industry person.

As an example, M&B has registered here and been permitted to have a signature declaring him to be a dealer representing M&H and Kawai. In the course of his posting, he has made negative comments about both M&H and Kawai. He has entered fabricated price-paid information on the price-paid thread with the obvious intent of de-valuing the market value of Estonia pianos. He has attacked the integrity of several (fellow?) retailers and manufacturer reps including Frank Woodside, Norbert, Russell Kassman, and Rich Galassini. Attacks have been extremely personal. He has declared that all pianos made in China are junk that will fall apart within a few years. If[/b] he has been permitted to do this with no necessary verification in the registration process of his claimed dealership and claimed representation of M&H and KAwai, I am astonished. I am not trying to pick on M&B here. I simply don't think it's the best atmosphere to use pianomadam as the example.

Could you please clarify this point?
Posted by: gryphon

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 10:42 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
Piano*Dad, take a stand? Surely you jest. PM me and I'll tell you two other places to visit if integrity in a piano/keyboard forum is actually important to you. PW lost that a long time ago. [/b]
I'm sure P*D isn't the only one interested. Would it be inappropriate to mention them by name or post links?[/b]
I think so. Unless Ken gives permission. Frank won't, he never bothers to read his own board. I even sent him some emails. He has an area devoted to member pianos. I sent him photos like others in his gallery. Nothing. Several emails, nothing.

Of course I sent him money a couple of times, that was perfectly fine. He accepted that. Never a "thank you." That was BEFORE he even began soliciting money. When the Coffee Room was active a number of people then contributed to keep PW and the CR active. Frank took their money and closed down the CR. Those people left. They were very vocal about Frank taking their money.

Frank also has a number of aliases he posts under. Surprising given the little attention he gives his own board, I know.

I could go on but I won't. If anyone wants to know of two good alternate piano/keyboard forums, PM me.
Posted by: lilylady

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 11:14 AM

Gryphon,

I am having a hard time reading you trash this place in several posts. If you don't like it, why are you here? Just to bring back bad vibes or to get members to join elsewhere from a PM to you?

Geeze.

That rials me up almost as much as sockie PM does.

I just don't get it. I'll try to say this as nice as I can. Be a part of this place or be away but don't trash the party.
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 11:37 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Terry C.:
Turnadot,
If it looks like a snake,slithers like a snake,it's a snake!! I could make an apology for my harsh remarks,but then i would be stooping to the level of pianomadam with an unsincere apology! There shall be
no such apology from me! For quite some time i held out hope that she would redeem herself!However being the snake that she is,she remains under her rock and occasionally lashes her forked tongue out in defense of her deceitful ways!
Pianomadam: Slither,slither slither! Poof! Be gone!


Be well and happy,
Terry C. \:\) [/b]
Terry,

In the course of pianomadam's stay here, I have been in the trenches many times countering her sales spiel with the facts as I understand them to be. As proof of that I would direct you to the first three pages of this thread where the issue of S&S design of the Essex was discussed. Long ago, I became convinced that pianomadam was using her space here to present a particular point of view that favored her stated affiliation. While this is certain par for the course here in terms of opportunisitc dealer posting, I also found that some of her responses under her avatar gave the appearance of being written by different individuals. My own decision was and is to simply counter her slanted agenda with facts in evidence. Those facts do not include a fact that Essex is a bad piano. In my experience it is not. I have tried to indicate that in responses that I make out of a sense of fairness.

In this thread pianomadam got caught with her hand in the cookie jar. Since that time members have come from far and wide to castigate her. I suppose this is what has been referred to in this thread a while back as "the public good". Your comment that pianomadam is a snake crawling away on her belly does not support any true notion of "the public good" if such a thing in fact even exists.

After being caught, pianomadam could have simply slithered away never to post again under her avatar. She did not do that. She posted that she had screwed up, was appalled by the extent she had allowed her anonymity to do something truly unethical, apologized to one and all, and said that she expected to be scourged for her behavior. To me, this is not crawling away on your belly. She has also stated in this thread that were she to be banned, it would be deserved.

At this point the questions gravitate toward this forum's set of rules, precedents, and the level of enforcement. I do not think descriptions of pianomadam as a reptile, a whore, or other emotionally-charged metaphors are a necessary part of enforcing the rules. If it is apparent to me that a decision will be based on the vehemence of such emotional reactions, I will not post in this forum in the future because I do not wish to be part of a forum that panders to member sentiment rather than enforcing its rules. I have said repeatedly and consistently that I have no problem with a decision that permanently bans pianomadam from this forum, providing it is based on an application of the rules and not her level of popularity or unpopularity.

 Quote:
originally posted by the Journey
As pianomadam would say (and turandot apparently would agree), "Why throw the baby out with the bath water?" [/b]
Journey,

This is a gross misstatement of a position I have stated clearly and consistently. I understand your good intent to make this forum a better place. I also understand that in executing your good intent you are often sloppy with your research. If there is any baby here, it would be Jonathan Hunt (Diaphragmatic) and Jman. As Jeff Bauer stated, pianomadam has made Jonathan's mountain twice as high and added cacti along the terrain.

Jonathan has posted with full disclosure. He has also verified that Jman is in fact what he always claimed to be: a piano teacher with a business relationship to Jonathan's dealership. Though I personally never agreed much with Jman's posts and may not agree with everything Jonathan has to say, I respect the fact that they are sincere and transparent in their efforts to affect change in the somewhat negative general perception in this forum that S&S sub lines do not stack up well against other competitive products at their pricepoints.

Another baby that could be maimed if not thrown out completely is the entire retailer membership in this forum. It has been stated that this incident tarnishes S&S. I don't think that is true if people exercise common sense. It has however tarnished the image in this forum of all participating retailers. As some members here advance their opinion that this forum has routinely been manipulated by retailers over the years with the silent acquiescence of its administration, the level of trust which consumers place in participating retailers will diminish, in many cases undeservedly. Had a clear decision been made immediately, or a temporary restaining order gone into effect to muzzle pianomadam until a decision could be made, this creeping distrust could have been minimized, if not completely eliminated.
Posted by: nutchai

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 11:44 AM

It would be nice to see an actual decision by Frank on this whole mess soon..
Posted by: doremi

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 11:52 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
It has however tarnished the image in this forum of all participating retailers. As some members here advance their opinion that this forum has routinely been manipulated by retailers over the years with the silent acquiescence of its administration, the level of trust which consumers place in participating retailers will diminish, in many cases undeservedly. Had a clear decision been made immediately, or a temporary restaining order gone into effect to muzzle pianomadam until a decision could be made, this creeping distrust could have been minimized, if not completely eliminated. [/b]
Society/Internet/PW have a bottom drawer like drawer chest. One can try, but the bottom drawer will always have some content.

Does not mean that PW should or should not ban in this case.

In any case, it's up to everyone in society/Internet/PW to deal with the ever present bottom drawer.
Posted by: AJB

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 12:04 PM

if we stand back and look at this from Frank's point of view, I think it may be naive for anyone to expect him to do much when people misbehave.

Frank is interested in volume. He wants a large number of members (even if many of them are long gone) and he wants a large number of searches, page hits and so on. He has stated that PW is now his business and income stream, so he is incentivized to maintain that.

You may think that having a forum with integrity is important. Bt it is not as important to the owner, I suspect, as having a lot of activity. Potential advertisers like activity. They think there a lot of people possibly looking at their ads.

Threads like this generate activity, as do the controversial misdeeds of the likes of Pianomadam.

Forget perfect integrity. You would then have only a few people posting. But the forum is largely about entertainment and passing a few minutes on the internet having fun, as much as it is about really informing newbies.

So - see it for what it really is. Everyone has thoroughly enjoyed the dreadful scandal of yet another sockie being outed. Big deal. But not very important really.

Adrian
Posted by: Mr. Kia

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 12:23 PM

Bingo AJB!
Posted by: nutchai

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 12:29 PM

And I have to agree with Turandot here...

Although what PianoMadam has done here has been quite unethical... it still points to the fact that she should only be banned on the basis of breaking the above-mentioned rules and NOT on the basis of her popularity.

If the latter were to occur, this forum would simply become a cyber high school.
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 12:29 PM

i don't know how helpful it is to second guess Frank's intentions, particularly since there seem to be many guesses.

one would hope that all would post with good will ......... that is simply not the case.
Posted by: AJB

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 12:42 PM

I disagree with you Apple. There is no need to second guess anyone's intentions. It is commercially obvious. Frank has said PW is his main, or only, business. It is an internet business that must depend largely on advertising, plus a few sales, and the advertising depends on volume.

PW is not damaged by this at all - as I posted on another thread, having thought about it a bit. The thread will soon disappear into the mire and will be forgotten and not even seen by most newbies.

It most likely does not damage Steinway et al either. The brand gets more attention and curiosity will be aroused that could well carry people into stores to see what all the fuss is about with these Essex piano and the much better (allegedly) Charles Walters.

The dealers who post here also probably have no negative emerging from it all. The good ones come across with integrity anyway, and their shopfront is getting visible on an internet site that is highly active. Win/win.

The argument is largely a load of hot air. It is in Frank's best interests to let it ride for a while and in my view it is naive to suppose otherwise.

It may be even more productive to have another thread later on explaining why Pianomadam and her range of sockies has been banned. Then everyone can comment on that at length too. It all adds to ....the entertainment! And will generate lots of volume ;-)

Adrian
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 01:31 PM

there is much to be perceived here besides the commercially obvious.
Posted by: AJB

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 02:18 PM

Perhaps, but making cryptic remarks does not aid anyones perception.

Incidentally I do not have a problem with anyone seeking the removal of Pianomadam. I just happen to disagree with the frequently repeated statement that it is all bad. bad for the business, Piano World and so on. In reality it is a pimple on the moon.

Some posters like to assume that PW is a beacon of truthful virtue in the piano world. And so misbehavior results in indignation. Oh my goodness, how awful! Everyone who has been here a while knows that PW suffers from the same issues as all internet forums: nonsense mixed with good advice, bias, puppetry, entertainment, dealers promoting stuff, misinformation and bashing, and so on.

So lets accept reality and move on to the next drama.

I expect Pianomadwoman already has another ID in any case.

A
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 02:27 PM

My, my, my, how this thread has grown since I last passed through the gates of Mordor into the dark realm! The Inquisitioners have donned their black robes and oiled up their interrogation wheels. The forum must be pure! There are rules, and there must be consequences! And there are principles involved that require erudite analysis and discussion. Studies must be conducted and councils convened. This is, after all, a matter of such crushing importance that work, family, and mere playing of pianos must go on hold until we write 20 or 30 postings each that analyze it from every conceivable angle.

Thanks to those who found my earlier bit of whimsy amusing, but I just don't have the stamina for this place. I'm going back to the ABF!

(Don't flame me. I kid 'cuz I luv)
Posted by: Jeff Bauer

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 02:37 PM

last two posts are my favs. BlueKeys, I laughed out loud at your first, very well done.
Posted by: apple*

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 02:46 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by AJB:
Perhaps, but making cryptic remarks does not aid anyones perception.

[/b]
some people can understand them \:D
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 02:51 PM

 Quote:
Well, this is what happens when you live in a different time zone - and go abroad for a day. I can't believe that an eight page thread suddenly appeared.
AJB,

This is how you trumpeted your arrival in this thread. Though it is true that we live in different time zones, the elapsed time between a member's posts is accurate and consistent if both posts are measured according to the same time zone.

At the time of your last forum post before your dramatic entrance here, this thread had already accumulated 5 of those 8 pages that you refer to and 115 posts had been made. The thread did not initiate or develop during your absence. Those preciou$ page views that you allude to as being the only interest of management here were already topping the charts. \:D

I realize that travel from country to country in Europe is quite facile and that you cherish your image as the boy-wonder James bond of Fleet Street by way of the World Bank in NYC. I am also aware that at other times you have entered threads saying something to the effect of 'lookee here what all has happened in my absence'. \:D Hey, as you have noted, entertainment value is not to be sneezed at. \:D

Apple has recently stated that there is much of value here beyond commercial enterprise. I support that view wholeheartedly. There are many who come here to navigate a purchase in a tricky product arena who receive invaluable help. I have personally received follow-up thank you letters from members who I had no specific recollection of helping. I have actually visited a couple of those members to meet them and see their pianos. I'm not boasting here. I'm just giving an example of the help which this place can and does afford people. There are others here who provide practical and valuable guidance superior to mine.

At this point you have apparently decided to toss everything out with the bathwater..equating this website to tabloid journalism such as it is practiced in your country and mine. You have also stated that EVERYONE enjoys the drama of a witch hunt and that entertainment quite naturally takes precedence over information.

You are certainly entitled to that view since apparently you are satisfied to come here as a diversion and seek nothing further. However, I think this forum is different things to different people and that there is genuine sadness on the part of many (including me) to see it floundering in such an unfortunate situation.

So while I would not dispute at all your view that it is what it is as viewed from one's own perspective, I would remind you that the vantage point of superiority upon which you place yourself is not shared by all that many others.
Posted by: lilylady

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 02:55 PM

T-

do you EVER run out of words?

;\)

I can't even plough through the last one...expecting the same things you have said previously...

but please...don't let 'me' stop you!!!!
Posted by: mikhailoh

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 03:23 PM

I think trying to divine Frank's thinking on this is both pointless and a wee bit insulting. He's been here longer than anyone and, agree with him or not, he's the host.

I've never known him to be keen on dishonest activity on this board. He just doesn't jump at every shadow. Let the man enjoy NAMM in peace. This can wait.
Posted by: AJB

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 03:39 PM

Turandot/William - you are basically a ranter. I find it hilarious how easily you bite. Verbose and frequently drifting away from the point into your diatribes. You reckon I missed the first 5 pages. You may well be right! Who cares - certainly not me. Do you not grasp irony? I dip into Piano World usually when I am not busy with something else. Given that the most important part of my family lives in a different country to me, I am often sat around at airports. Europe is a bit different to your neck of the woods.

And you are right, I can easily be mistaken for Bond. Unfortunately it is Brook Bond (of the PG tIps variety).

Get over yourself. You and I rarely share the same perspective. It is not personal. It just adds to the richness of the dialogue.

Now, if you have got something useful to say that is on topic, go at it old chap! We are close to dinner time shut down for PW in the UK, so your amazingly witty response will have to wait until the morning for me.

Kind regards

Adrian
Posted by: ftp

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 03:43 PM

At the end of the day this is Frank's site and he is free to do as he pleases. It's up to him to sort out all the free advice he has been given by those who have free access. PW is free in many senses of the word. Being free has pros and cons--features and functions are missing, desired reaction times are not met, sock puppets have some ability to roam freely in his absence.

I tend to agree with P*D and others that known malicious sock puppets and their owners should be banned- it's a risk they can take with known consequences if they get caught.

PW is also part entertainment, part community, part unselfish advice. It should operate based on the priniciple of good will by everyone (as Apple states)although with all the egos involved of course it will get unruly from time to time. Ben Franklin advocated moderation in everything including moderation. I agree with AJB, whom I have personally found to be very unselfish in assistance on a few matters, that this place is also entertainment- I believe he may have suggested to take the pixels too seriously may be bad for your health.

I have no doubt that PW will sort all this out. This thread reminds me of a famous quote "To retain respect for laws and sausages, one must not watch them in the making".

Ironically PM's two part invention would likely have fooled no one as her(?) comments are always subject to reality checks. Regardless the behavior I'm sure will be dealt with appropriately when Frank has a free moment.
Posted by: MoodyBluesKeys

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 04:32 PM

First (and only) comment:

The NAMM show very likely is considered important in a business sense to Frank - otherwise (especially since PW seems to presently be the main source of personal revenue), he would not have paid the air fare, the hotel reservations, meal expense, and so forth; in order to attend.

From postings on another forum by people who are at NAMM - there is no direct Internet access at the NAMM show (at least not for the attendees). It is completely unknown if there is access in his lodgings. Trade shows are typically places where one not only gets to see new merchandise, but opportunities to meet and schmooze with potential suppliers AND clients. Most of the trade cannot justify the expense just to see the new toys - they are there to actively pursue business.

Frank could very well be busy after the public showings each day - getting potential advertisers, maybe lining up other opportunities in his line of work. The show is not infinitely long - far from it. The trip back to Florida is only a day.

Several posters seem to have taken personal offense that Frank has not yet taken action - GIVE HIM SOME SLACK!!!!!!!!!! This matter really does not rank right up with news like short supplies of heating gas in Europe, change of leadership in the US, even a plane falling into the Hudson river. Rhett Butler would really say, "frankly, my dear, I don't give a d**n."

I'm not really sure which is more pathetic - the original sham - or (presently) 14 pages largely filled with vitriol over the matter. Do what I'm going to do - get back to the keyboard (musical, not computer), and work on improving technique.

Jim
Posted by: Ken Knapp

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 04:46 PM

FYI everyone, I've had some talk with Frank through PM's and I am sure he will comment directly or through me as soon as he can.

Turandot, as far as the personal info goes, I can't remember if I gave PW personal info when I signed up or not. Maybe I did.. But I don't see anyone's personal info, maybe it's there and only Frank can see it.

Ken
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 05:40 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Supply:
I must say it surprises me very much to hear that a Loya Jirga has to be called in so that the Council of Grand Poohbas can discuss whether or not anything should be done when someone has been caught, and has admitted to, breaking the most basic rules here.

Is there no precedent, no MO? Nothing in place? No exit plan????
How long do you have to deliberate a drop kick?

Deliberation to me underscores that maybe, just maybe, there is a chance of breaking all the rules in the book and getting away with it.

Back to reason for a moment:
I think the least that should happen during the deliberations is a suspension of forum privileges of the party who pleaded guilty. This thread has seen too much attack and counter-attack already. Put an end to it, I say. [/b]
This is it in a nutshell. The admission of guilt was the time to put the muzzle on pianomadam until a decision could be reached. It would not have completely eliminated the bloodlust, but it would have controlled the frenzy. Keeping her under wraps would also have prevented her from making the worst possible strategic decision: to launch a counterattack.

The thought that this might be decided by a show of member vitriol has caused me to personally question if I want to post in the piano forum at all. The obvious virtue and exalted high moral standards of some of the membership seem completely out of whack with the everyday world in which I live. The possibility that there is no precedent to guide a swift decision and that options might include everything from getting out of jail free to outright expulsion is the reason I am so concerned with mob mentaility. If nothing firm and fixed applies, then overcooked emotions might fill the void.

If madam's violation means termination according to the rules, I see no problem with it. Nor does she. In this thread she is on the record saying that she would deserve it. What she does not deserve is to be left twisting in the wind to suffer further humiliation while the poohbahs find an option which will satisfy the masses. [/b]
Frank's opinion matters significantly. Frank is the only one who has the authority to ban someone.

FRANK IS AT NAMM!!!!!!

Let me repeat...FRANK IS AT NAMM.

His has MUCH more pressing matters to attend.

Perhaps just a litle patience....
Posted by: turandot

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 06:28 PM

[QUOTEoriginally posted by Lilylady
]I can't even plough through the last one...expecting the same things you have said previously...
[/QUOTE]

Change of pace caught you off guard huh?

Well, you know, I always read Adrian's posts very carefully, and interest in this thread has seemed to flag. Bearing in mind Adrian's opinion that entertainment value is key, I just figured that a new controversy would keep the ratings high until the poohbahs got a chance to see the overnight Neilsons. \:D

It was fun taking a run at Adrian, and he certainly would agree that it's for a good cause...to put fresh meat on the table. \:D He can get me back in the morning and serve me up as a roast duckling. Lord knows how long sideshows may be needed to keep people from changing the channel. Anyone you want to take a swipe at? Now's the time! \:D A Free-for-all would probably set a new high in page views.
Posted by: Ken Knapp

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 06:36 PM

Steve is right. We're all guests here, and while there is nothing wrong with making suggestions, it's discourteous to him to start making them sound like demands.

Ken
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 07:58 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
[QUOTEoriginally posted by Lilylady
]I can't even plough through the last one...expecting the same things you have said previously...
Change of pace caught you off guard huh?

Well, you know, I always read Adrian's posts very carefully, and interest in this thread has seemed to flag. Bearing in mind Adrian's opinion that entertainment value is key, I just figured that a new controversy would keep the ratings high until the poohbahs got a chance to see the overnight Neilsons. \:D

It was fun taking a run at Adrian, and he certainly would agree that it's for a good cause...to put fresh meat on the table. \:D He can get me back in the morning and serve me up as a roast duckling. Lord knows how long sideshows may be needed to keep people from changing the channel. Anyone you want to take a swipe at? Now's the time! \:D A Free-for-all would probably set a new high in page views. [/b][/QUOTE]Makes me want to buy stock in Piano World. ;\)
Posted by: Horwinkle

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 08:39 PM

You didn't say whether you've bought a piano before, so ... in case you haven't ... let me add this:

Prices are negotiable. Don't ever expect to pay the dealer's asking price. Work the price.

(I'm guessing that recessionary times are the best for buying expensive items, like pianos. Sales are down and the buyer are well positioned to work a good deal.)
Posted by: Jeff Bauer

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 09:41 PM

erm... L Horwinkle... you might consider reading past the first post to see what others have already said. You may reconsider your position ;\)
Posted by: Piano*Dad

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 09:55 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Bauer:
erm... L Horwinkle... you might consider reading past the first post to see what others have already said. You may reconsider your position ;\) [/b]
:D


We even had Ken change the title of the thread to help prevent this. Whaddya gotta do?
Posted by: Ken Knapp

Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter - 01/17/09 10:50 PM

Hmmmmmmmm...

Well, someone did mention the other day that there hadn't been a locked thread in a while.. \:D

Ken