Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano

Posted by: artemov

Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/30/06 11:35 PM

Hello everybody, this is my first post \:\)

Please don't scold me. I have used the search function and most of the postings on Singapore are quite dated.
So here goes.

I am an adult beginner hoping to learn classical piano. I will be 33 soon, so I hope it's not too late for me.

Currently I am shopping for my first upright piano. Initially my budget is S$5000, but now I don't mind paying a bit more to get something better that can last a decade or two.

I am a bit lost and confused at the many varieties of piano available: different brands, models, countries, factories, ... So I hope that someone can recommend a good and decently priced upright piano for a beginner.

I am quite interested in the new Kawai K series (K3), or a Yamaha (U1 amd M112T), but someone mentioned somewhere here that Kawai in Singapore is overpriced and the pricings are not very transparent. Are the Korean made, or the Indonesian or the Chinese clones (U1J) any good?

Also I don't mind getting a used piano, but don't even know how to play the piano (yet), let alone evaluate one.

I would appreciate if the replies are more relevant to Singapore, but all replies are welcome lah!

Please help, as I really want to learn the piano. Been thinking about it since my high school days!
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/30/06 11:53 PM

I think both Kawai and Yamaha are pretty safe choices, and it will ultimately boil down to your own preferences for tone and touch. If you do not feel comfortable with evaluating tone/touch, then get an experienced player to come along with you. In general, I like Yamahas for their action, although I must say the Kawais have caught up more recently.

That said, for the amount you are willing to spend, which I would presume to be no more than S$7-8K, there are many many other options you could consider. Try Gramercy at Tg Katong Road, to try out their Bohemia (Czech made), and Wilhelm Tell (China made). They both seem reasonably priced and nice sounding instruments. You could also try the Petrof uprights (Czech made) at Music Lodge, at Bukit Timah shopping centre - they sell used Yamahas and Kawais too. And at Bukit Timah Plaza, there's the Pianoman's shop, that sells Nottingham (China made), alongside Ibach . Don't forget to visit Chiu Piano at Thomson Plaza for the Cramers and Kembles, which might be within your budget. And lastly, I think Perzina is great value, very affordable with a nice silky action and deep bass - certainly enough to give Yamaha and Kawai a run for their money! You can find them at Sonata Music House (at Singapore SHopping Centre and Teck Whye).

While you're at it, you might also want to try out some higher end German pianos at these shops (Ibach at the Pianoman, Schimmel, Wilhelm Steinberg at Chiu Piano). I would also strongly recommend a visit to Raffles Piano at Victoria Concert Hall, which sells only Sauter and provides outstanding service - I bought my grand from him. While these German pianos are likely to be out of your budget for now, they do provide a benchmark for comparison. Downside of course, is that you could get too spoilt by too much of a good thing!

The bottomline is, just keep your mind open and explore all the available options. Singapore is a small place and you should be able to visit all the abovementioned shops within a couple of weekends.

Hope this helps
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/01/06 11:32 AM

you can't go very wrong with yamaha or kawai here. the more open your mind is, the deeper you'll have to dish out from your pocket. however, enjoy your shopping and learn more about other piano makes and what sets them uniquely apart from each other.

there's only one dealer selling new kawai in s'pore... so how could the price be not transparent? the only variance could be due to their occasional promotion prices. prices for yamaha is also controlled by their hq and they too goes up and down few times a year...

search my posts and do your own recce.
Posted by: cmk

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/02/06 10:21 AM

First stop, give a call to Alvin and make an appointment and listen/play with the Sauters. That should be your benchmark. After that, your hunting process will be more meaningful, at least you know what to aim for.

At that budget, your best bets would be a good 2nd hand, or a Petrof/Bohemia if you don't mind East European, or a Yamaha/Kawai. These are grouped together for the type of sound they offer.

Next is to get a good teacher, who can nuture your interest.
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/03/06 09:01 AM

Dear all,

Following the advice of Wzkit, I went piano shopping all over Singapore these few days.

First stop Robert Piano to look at the Kawai K3, which is exactly what I did, just look only. The service is courteous, but a bit cold. The guy didn't really say much. He didn't lift the cover or ask me if I want play the piano (which I can't of course).

Then off to Katong to look at the Bohemias and the Wilhem Tells. The service is quite nice, warm and informal. But I didn't quite like the sound of the Bohemia. Seems a bit bloated and fat, like it's a bit muddled or muted and you couldn't quite hear the individual notes clearly. Is this the European sound I wonder? Maybe I enjoy a crispier, brighter sound?

Lastly the Perzina at Orchard. The action feels very good, quite light and very smooth. The sound is quite nice too, but seems to differ substantially from set to set. The nice lady told me the sound can be changed by tuning to my liking. Really? The price is quite good too.

Maybe will go down to see the Sauter \:\)
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/03/06 12:21 PM

Definitely go see the Sauter. I think it will be quite a different experience playing a piano of a different league altogether. At least for me, Sauter was initially way out of my budget, but over a period of 7 months of continuously playing that piano, Alvin convinced me to nearly double my original budget!
Posted by: cmk

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/03/06 12:46 PM

Wzkit, who's the guy who refurbishes 2nd hand pianos? Pass the contact to artemov.
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/03/06 09:13 PM

Yes. Its Emmanuel and Sons at Little India, opposite Mustafa Centre. I think it is possible to get a great deal on a used piano there, and some of them are still in good shape!
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/07/06 09:20 AM

Can't seems to contact Alvin, maybe he's overseas?

Is this Emmanuel and Sons any good?
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/07/06 01:09 PM

Alvin's in Bali at the moment..should be back next week. Try next Thursday.

Emmanuel and Sons has very reasonably priced used pianos. At your budget, you might even be able to get a used Yamaha grand, in reasonable condition.

Btw, I went to Pianomaster at Geylang East, to try out their Wendl & Lung pianos. Pretty good for a Chinese piano, with a very deep bass. If you liked Perzina, you might just like this piano.
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/07/06 10:21 PM

Just wondering, is it possible to find any used German piano (Sauter, Bluthner, Bechstein , ...) in Sg?

Will try Alvin again next week. Really want to listen to the Sauter \:\)
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/07/06 10:25 PM

Yes, in fact, there is a 8 year old used Sauter on consignment at Alvin's place. Amazing piano with an amazing bass. I would grab it myself if I had the room for it.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/19/06 04:48 AM

Hi guys,
I'm from Singapore too!!

Every tried looking around at Christofori at Bedok or Asia Piano or Zadok piano? They are all well prep and tuned. Some shops doesn't tune thier piano on display.. always say .. just arrived. Yeah, Piano Master has very nice sounding Baby Grands.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/20/06 04:24 AM

hi snoopycar,

where's zadok, haven't heard of it before.
which brand do they carry?

i've visited asia piano and they do bring a lot of old jap models, 2nd hand schimmel. the old seasoned yamaha ux series sure do give even some new german ones a run on their money.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/20/06 01:09 PM

Hi Mendo
It's at Balestier shopping or complex.. Shaw something.. I forgot. They have Imported Yamaha, Kawai ... Can freely test there, very good pricing too.

Asia piano, very helpful and friendly guys - no pressure sales. Highly skilled tuner. Have Grand piano there - frequently, 1 or 2pcs.
Posted by: piano shopper

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/20/06 03:04 PM

Hi Artemov,
there is a new piano dealer at bukit timah beauty world shopping complex, 2nd floor.
selling Krakauer and Sun.Tenor, both chinese pianos if i am correct.
never tried the pianos but if my memeory is correct, says in advertisement that Sun.Tenor features Steingraeber action.
don't know if that means the "rolling knuckle" action of Steingraeber.
visited the shop twice, it was closed. you have to call the dealer through the number on display.

I strongly support the suggestion that you should visit Alvin and try the Sauter pianos. it will be a most enriching trip.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/20/06 05:41 PM

sauter...
only if i have S$30k to spare. year end coming and my wife hinting we go japan for tour....

have been making sacrifices these years, that's why also looking at used piano shops like pianoman, asiapiano, music lodge....

however i also accidentally stepped into places like the chiu piano, raffles, galleria .....
Posted by: RazrV3

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/20/06 06:28 PM

I had a Yamaha U5 (I think it was the tallest upright at that time). It served me well for a number of years until I had to get a grand for my diploma. I really liked Yamaha for all-around quality/price.

Have to disagree with artemov's comment about Robert Piano. We went in first asking to see Steinways (and they gladly obliged when I asked to try, even letting me try the B when we told them that it was way out of our range). Their demeanor did not change when we asked to see the Kawais.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/21/06 06:27 AM

i will out-of-topic on robert piano for a while for the benefit of artemov and i don't work for them.

this i what i had gather after a few rounds of visits at their various outlets.

1. the salespersons don't earn any commission unlike yamaha sales. that's why you get the different enthusiasm.

2. different salespersons have different persona.
but if you wanna try most of the units, go to millenia. but the salesguy have rooms for improvement. luv his ties anyway. look for the boss, robert if you have lots of questions. he's a master technician.

3. you really have to open your mouth to get what you want! that includes trying the piano. if you don't play the piano, ask one the experts there. each outlet has one each. the one over at centrepoint have over 35yrs teaching experience.
the millenia has one young guy.

you also have to be upfront with them what type of piano you are looking for, who is using, what level. otherwise you get a lost or blur response from them too.

with more enthusiasm and interest in certain models, and i don't mean buying, on your side, you will get a reciprocrating response. it works for me, all the time.
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/21/06 07:20 AM

Hi all,

Thanks for all the replies.

Done a few more visiting this past week. Also learnt to open my mouth and use my fingers a bit more ;P

So far, my impression of piano dealers in Sg are pretty positive, almost all of them are professional, courteous and knowledgeable. Much much better than electronics, electricals and renovation!

Went down to Asia Piano today. Really tempted by their two used Kawai K50. Music Lodge also has at least 1 used K80. Hmmmm ....

Will visit Pianoman and that Zadok place soon.

Actually I have visited Alvin twice already. Fantastic guy. Learnt so much from him. Sauter is so nice, but also very expensive *sigh*
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/21/06 08:41 AM

being professional and courteous is the only way they could survive in this small island. i believe strong reputation and strong referral are fundamentals to their survival. it's not everyday people walk to buy a piano. when they do, they must make a sum out of the customer, or else they have to close their shop. think, when's the next time you will buy another piano?

the economy of scale from the supply chain aspect does not exist here and that's why you see these high prices. i hate it some begin to badmouth another make or shop when i ask their opinion. guess, they are aiming on the fundamentals of their competitor's survival and that's a fact of life for some dealers over here.

one dealer even told that his main income comes from ignorant parents buying piano for their child and believing a cheap one is good enough. so in 3-5 years time they come in again to trade-in and buy a more expensive one. the dealer says this is what most parents prefer in case the child's interests died and that's the way it is and good for both parties.

i love to discuss about pianos with technicians who plays the piano and technician who doesn't.
so far i've only met one who plays. have you come across any?

they do give important factors to consider when buying a piano that may sounds like below,

1. level of piano proficiency you have
2. pieces you like to hear on your piano and you want them to be on your piano
3. cheap to own, but may be costly to maintain
4. what are these costs?
5. nice to own, but may be too extravagant for even serious amateurs
6. how long you need this piano for?
7. warranty
8. important note you need to differentiate: do you like the sound or can you live with that sound?

i'm seriously thinking of importing a german piano over as i strongly believe they are overpriced here for reasons i'd mentioned above. anyone had done this before and saved an arm and leg?
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/21/06 09:28 AM

hi artemov,

before you move so quickly on your 1st purchase, please find out where and who you will be learning classical piano from. most likely you'll get yourself a personal one whom will vist you every week so that you are using the precious piano that you proudly own. they might give you some good advice on your needs (not piano, but piano playing). thereafter you may plan to buy the piano yourself unless you are absolute sure they are not getting commision from the sales too and giving you a lemon since you are a newbie!

i'm also a serious photographer and i liken piano playing like phototaking. it's the person behind the camera that makes the difference, not the camera. any good player will find a workaround whichever piano he or she plays.
in photo forums, people say a steinway under the hands of incompetent player is ****!

believe me, photographers a more particular on nitty gritty details than most concert pianists.

as such, please focus primarily on your real target, which is actually you know what.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/22/06 11:43 PM

For 1st time buyer...

1 factor to consider is resale value. Try ... oops(censored) to stick to Yamaha or Kawai - $3000~$4200 should be able to get a good Japan imports. The actions should be in good condition too. Use a torchligh to inspect for worn-out buckskin hammer butt , if necessary.

But I have tested 1 brand called Victor at cristofori bedok. It sounded mellow and responsive. price was ~$2900. It's a good-buy. But that was few months back...

Also, some shop offer garantee buy-back scheme. This is useful when you finds you need to upgrade.

Wah, I'm discovering more and more Piano shops !!!
Some located at warehouse 7th level !!
Some spray paint with newspaper masking even while customer browsing around.... hehehe

Did anyone tried the Schimmel Grand at Asia piano 2 months back? It can melt :3hearts: my ears.... so nice, so powerful.. is it still there? out of my pocket's reach. But I regretted i didn't consider a Kawai grand there a year ago .. \:D
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/23/06 06:07 AM

hi snoopycar,

yup i did. it sounded real powerful but lacking the overtones that i'm particularly picky about. however i couldn't get used to the actions in my short visit there. i believe it's still available in the shop.

i wonder what is it doing there in that shop? 2nd hand piano dealers can give sellers a better price and still make from the new buyers?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/23/06 10:35 AM

Hi Mendo.
Yep, was it like medium heavy? i also recalled the inertia was also on the high side - good for strong fingers, perhaps good for expression. Wonder which type of music does pure tone piano suit? Richard Clayderman pop pieces? Mozart K545?

Hmmm.. overtone notes. Is it like Steinway sound? muddy but colourful? Nice. I hear this kind of sound often on the radio- international station, when it plays piano music and others. I can hear the overtone of the after-notes, especially when the player pause for a while and lets the piano sings....

I heard its on consignment. Has the woodgrain finished G2 been set up yet?? oohhh ... Anyway, it's a nice shop where you can talk about piano stuff(technical) casually with the owner and learn some tips too ..
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/23/06 06:40 PM

hi snoopycar,

that schimmel grand sure is different from the ones tried elsewhere. to me, it definitely sound very full and mellow while losing its bit of the clear, calm sounds i normally have no problem associating with schimmels. its good for jazzy or ragtime pieces where i personally would prefer tne heavier inertia. that would definitely increase the lifespan of the felt and hammer from the way i play.

it won't do for my mozart or chopin or even bach pieces. imho. you can try these pieces again on that unit and the ones at thompson plaza. i can't describe the overtone features in words for you.

you can invite some of your friends to listen which one they prefer. they may make very sound judgement even they don't play the piano.

i normally comment a piano at its face value, knowing that just voicing and regulation and slight tweaking can do magic.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/24/06 10:16 AM

Ok... I was incline to think that it was more suitable for classical pieces. \:\) - I need more exposure

artemov: How's the piano shopping going? Narrow down to any particular piano yet?
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/25/06 11:02 PM

Hi snoopycar,

I am still searching. Will be trying more models this weekend.

How's your own search? Any model in mind?

Cheers.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/26/06 03:25 AM

Eyeing for a $7~9K 2nd hand good condition grand piano.... Although i'm an adult beginner, i'm dreaming of a GP just for fun. Anyway, i think i can't get a GP for this small sum of money. \:\(

Right now i'll have to be contentent with my Yamaha U1A. Would you be keen in my U1A??
Happy shopping.......
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/26/06 07:48 AM

way to go snoopycar!!
grand piano sure will lift your interests even more.

think you need to stretch your budget a bit more in order to get a good grand. otherwise you'll be better off with the cheaper good upright.
your present budget could get you a very good new 'professional' upright which easily gives better sound quality and maybe better action than very old grands. unless you are using your grand as a piece of decor. new stuff means better warranty coverage and better resale value.

if i'm more into classical, which you said you are more inclined to, i'll go for a slightly warmer and mellower sound.

what i did was to bring along with me a simple music piece on my mp3 when i visited the shops and play the same piece on the pianos and see if they match close to the sound i would like to hear. this piece was recorded when i played a while on a very expensive grand at one of the shop here. this sound was what i like best and its played on many notable piano recordings.

of course, if that sound is constantly in your head, then you won't need an mp3.

problem for me the last time was for every piano i tried, there is a piece of music which one piano do very well compare to others. of course the goal is to find one that could suit most of your entire repertoire. but after much comparison and deliberation, i still can't get over the sounds of a few pianos.

this is only for the sound category with respect to tone, texture, or whatever other people call.

then there are other factors like touch, action etc. no one knows what you would like best except yourself and that may take a while.
Posted by: Zhonhern

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/26/06 10:35 AM

Somebody's placed a Yamaha C2 on ebay singapore for 4k, if anyone's interested:

http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/YAMAHA-GRAND-PIAN...1QQcmdZViewItem

Looks like a gray market import judging from the 2 pedals, but might be worth considering...
Posted by: Zhonhern

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/26/06 10:54 AM

On 2nd thought, i don't think they made C2s with 2 pedals. It's probably a G2.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/26/06 07:45 PM

Zhonhern
Oh yes, Thanks for the info. I'm trying to register into Ebay to contact the seller.

Thanks Mendo for the encouragements.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/29/06 11:00 PM

Near the end of bidding, the seller called me to come down to take a look. There were other parties going at different time slot.

Well, I went down to inspect the G2 with my Lumileds 3W torchlight.... hehehe
As I was testing and playing, bidding continues..
It ends at about $5300. I finds the G2 below my expectation, so i didn't top up or try to secure the instrument and politely turn down the marriage - didn;t hymotize me. If it were good, I could have blink blink..

Finding: serial no. is about 27 or 29million, didn't remember clearly. Strings, slightly rust stain at tuning pins area. Brass are darken. Hammer are fluffy - needless to say, deep grooved. Touch were poorer than my U1A.
Soundboard, no cracks. Finishing good. Key surface, good.

Tuning were well done by Century Piano. Best of all, the Tone dynamics were great. When player softly, the tone was round. When played hard the overtone sets in, WOW!!! Trills feels fast. No regrets not buying.

Question. Perhaps the Singapore humidity have taken a toil on GPs here. Unless the owner invest in temp controlled room.

How long would a new GP last in our weather? I mean, if I bought a new GP and place it in my 4rm HDB room without climate control, how long would it last before the light-colour wood turns dark, spotted and rust sets in on the strings?


Well, the search continue....

Anyone has a Kawai or and good Grand for sale ??
Posted by: Kelana

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 03:14 AM

For a used grand on that sort of budget in Singapore, you should definitely give Mr. Kwan of Emmanuel & Sons a call. I got my piano there earlier this year. It is a beautiful instrument (25 years old) in beautiful condition, and the price was extremely reasonable.

It's a slightly odd looking place, and he has a changing selection of pianos of various ages and various states of repair (including some real curiosity pianos, such as an ancient Steinway Square Grand). However, his technicians seem to work with real care, and his prices are excellent.

The whole experience was very positive - he does not 'hard sell' (quite the opposite - he almost seems reluctant to part with his treasured collection), and he is very honest about his pianos and their condition and suitability. Obviously, he may not have a piano in stock that suits your needs, but if he does then I can't recommend him highly enough. Well worth checking out.
Posted by: juzzjazz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 04:00 AM

Hi everybody,

I was in the process of piano buying when I came across this forum. Your discussions have always been interesting and helpful. Thought I'd come in and join in the fun as well.

I have been playing on and off for the past 15 years and now am really interested in starting up jazz piano. In all I've visited Robert Piano, Chiu Piano, Yamaha, new piano stores at Balmoral Plaza, Piano Man, Renner and a small store at Orchard Tower.

We finally went to Robert Piano and got a new Toyama upright over the weekend. I must say that of all the China made pianos, I am most pleased with Toyama's round, sweet and mellow tone as well as it's padded touch. The associates at Robert Piano were simply fantastic. I went to their Centerpoint & Millenia Walk showrooms and had a chance to chat with Mr. Robert Chiu, Ms. Edna, Mr. Tony and Mr Chiu's grandson Nick. They advised me to play on every single piano that they had. From their very old used Thompson all the way to their brand new Steinway grand. I spent a total 3.5 hours at their Millenia Walk showroom. It's really fun as Mr. Tony and Nick are such a fantastic jazz and classical piano players. They literally played every single piece I wanted them too :p We chatted just like old friends. What a wonderful service!!!!

My new piano will arrive in the next few days. My hubby hinted that we'll get a Steinway upright if I were to be able to play beautiful jazz pieces by next year \:D Wish me luck guys!

Btw artemov, how did you search go? Hope you'll find the piano that you like soon. Where will you be taking lesson?

Cheers!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 04:44 AM

Kelana

Wow, did you get the 4 strings treble blutner i saw few months back? Beautiful piano and craftman detail finishings....

Yes i "window-shop" there just last Sat. Yes it's a living museum. got barber chair, classical organ $300, 77string fukuyama ,piano, footpump organ, 70's electric yamaha piano(band type), harsicord ... I also saw strink wrap Yamaha U1,U2,U3. I think it's Japan imports. They are catching up... Quality are improving.
Chatted with Mr Kwan and he was replacing hammer for a Foster Grand ... amazing. Very sincere guy, look like Beethovan - the cheek bone!! Prices there are reasonable, of course.

Strange, what's with the low gate at the front of the shop? Didn't notice it 6months back?? Regulation? Someone ran off with a piano? Notice the sales lady always plays the 2chord "sound of silence" end off with a A-minor Appregio?? Well done!!hehehe ..... Actually i dream of having a sales/workshop like that! Would installing aircon be better + carpet?? Perhaps... nice to i don't mind the no-frills. That sort of keep cost donw and pass the saving to the customer - just my observations.

3.5 star award!
Posted by: juzzjazz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 04:59 AM

Hi again artemov,

I also like the Kawai K3 but decided not to get that as I'm saving up for one of the German pianos. With regards to your very first question about Kawai pricing in Singapore, you might want to go to Robert Piano and ask them to show you a book by Larry Fine. The fair price range of each piano brand is listed in the book, thus you can have a rough idea of how much new Kawai should cost. Personally I wouldn't consider the Indonesian made Yamaha, I've tried several of them, and feel that with the same price, few other Chinese pianos (non-Yamaha) have better touch and tone (more expressive and musical. But that could be a personal taste.

You mentioned that you wouldn't mind increasing your budget to get a good piano that will last. I'm not sure how much you are willing to pay but like wzkit say, you can never go wrong with a Kawai. My Kawai at my parents' home is older than I am but I still enjoy playing at it as it still produces beautiful sound and nice touch. For slightly over S$15k, you can get a very good Schimmel upright.

I used to consider buying Petrof but after trying, found that many of the Petrof uprights are quite inconsistent in touch and action. At times, many keys were stuck. They are also pretty heavy.

Hope you're having fun with your search. Do keep us updated of your search, decisio as well as your first music lesson. I'm sure you're going to have a blast playing the piano after waiting for so long \:\)

Cheers!
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 05:41 AM

Hi Juzzjazz,

Glad that you got your piano. Me? Still looking \:\(

I read somewhere that a jazzy piano has quite different characteristics from a piano suitable for classical music. Brighter? Shorter sustain?

Will probably pay Emmanuel & Sons a visit.
Might check out Petrof also.

Cheers.
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 05:47 AM

Hi Juzzjazz,

Oops ... in that case will probably give Petrof a miss.

As a beginner, I think I will go for something more economical first. Either a Chinese, or a used piano. Any recommendation?

I will only upgrade when I finally achieve something. Like you I am also aiming for a German piano in the future, maybe a Sauter or an Ibach grand!! \:\)

Cheers
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 07:37 AM

hi juzzjazz,
great that you got a good piano. i believe mr chiu tune your piano himself.


hi snoopycar,
GB2 no fight with good uprights. if you topup another 1-3k, you'll get a better performing and new piano. not forgetting also good resale price which that GB2 will not have any in 10yrs time.

anyone tried perzina at sonata music house yet? read many good reviews at US. been a bit busy to cover many shops we got here nowadays.

also, who do we have as best tuners in town?
Posted by: juzzjazz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 08:38 AM

Thanks for your message Mendo. I can't wait till they deliver it this week.

Artemov, it's good that you're taking your time finding the ideal piano. In fact if this is your first time buying, trying out as many pianos and reviewing them carefully is a must.

What you read about piano needed for jazz vs. classical is only true to a certain sense. Many authors of piano think that pianos like the Yamaha or some Baldwin and New York Steinways which produce metallic and rather brassy sound/tone are usually preferred by pop and jazz players. On the other hand, classical pianists tend to prefer the mellow and rounder tone with not so light action for their repertoires. Personally I do not agree with them. Whether one is playing classical pieces or standard jazz songs, I still like pianos that produce warm, mellow and round tone with expressive bass. So I hope you're not misguided and end up restricting yourself to "classical piano" vs. "jazzy piano" while shopping for yours. I agree with Mendo when he says that "no one knows what you would like best except yourself and that may take a while". Just play as much as you can and buy the one you really love. Even if you can't play now, just play the scales on all octaves to get the feel.

As for Chinese pianos, having tried the Pearl River 8 years ago, I swore off Chinese pianos until recently when I got a chance to play on Moutrie and Toyama. It's such a pleasant surprise and must say that I am very impressed with the quality of recent Chinese pianos. In fact Moutrie feels like a European piano \:\) If you're considering a Chinese piano, you certainly have got to try Moutrie and Toyama (both at Robert Piano), Schonbrunn (Chiu Piano), Steinberger & Soong??? something (Renner Piano), Nottingham and Knight pianos (PianoMan Shop). I simply love the Moutrie and Toyama; Schonbrunn and that Stein & Soong something seem ok and decent. I don't like Nottingham and Knight at all. But you've got to try them all for the sake of comparison and who knows you might like them yourself. Other Chinese pianos are Perzina and Wendl & Lung. Avoid Pearl River.

If you're getting a used piano, best to buy it from reputable dealers. If buying used from a private party, always hire an independent & experienced technician with you. Enjoy the fun!


Cheers!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 09:46 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mendo:


hi snoopycar,
GB2 no fight with good uprights. if you topup another 1-3k, you'll get a better performing and new piano. not forgetting also good resale price which that GB2 will not have any in 10yrs time.

[/b]
Exactly what i was thinking!!

Yes, i have visited Perzina at the 5th level above Asia Piano... it has a 27xxxxx U1 and is sadly used as a "attention re-director". The sales will tell me ... you hear.. so bright.. you know, sales tactics or technique? i didn't reveal i'm having a U1 too and it doesn't sound that bad...

Anyway, 1 or 2 are nicely voiced. The rest has nice tenor, but treble breaks into a metalic sound abrubty !! The sales says it's nice. "old wong sell pumkin" ..sorry about being straight forword. Is reverse crown soundboard special?? I would norminate it as average. One of the nicest piano is the schimmel upright a Chiu piano, but it's $14,000.00!!! Phwah!!
Posted by: Axtremus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 09:51 AM

 Quote:
juzzjazz wrote:

"With regards to your very first question about Kawai pricing in Singapore, you might want to go to Robert Piano and ask them to show you a book by Larry Fine."
Why would you want a Singapore dealer to show you Larry Fine's book when it comes to pricing?

Fine's pricing numbers are useless outside the US, and unless you're buying Steinway, they can be off by anywhere between 15%~45% in the US.

Please disregard Larry Fine's prices when shopping outside the US.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 09:53 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by mendo:
[qb]

hi snoopycar,
GB2 no fight with good uprights. if you topup another 1-3k, you'll get a better performing and new piano. not forgetting also good resale price which that GB2 will not have any in 10yrs time.

Exactly what i was thinking!!

Yes, i have visited Perzina at the 5th level above Asia Piano... it has a 27xxxxx U1 and is sadly used as a "attention re-director". The sales will tell me ... you hear.. so bright.. you know, sales tactics or technique? i didn't reveal i'm having a U1 too and it doesn't sound that bad...

Anyway, 1 or 2 are nicely voiced. The rest has nice tenor, but treble breaks into a metalic sound abrubty !! The sales says it's nice. "old wong sell pumkin" ..sorry about being straight forword. Is reverse crown soundboard special?? I would norminate it as average. One of the nicest piano is the schimmel upright a Chiu piano, but it's $14,000.00!!! Phwah!!

Another good GP to recommend Wilhelm Tell at Gramercy. The 5'8 is about $14,000. I can see the "engine" is very good. I mean the actions are clean, not shabby wooden shavings... soundboard looks very high standard, light grain colour! definately not laminate SB. if i got $$, i'd just might get a WT.
Posted by: juzzjazz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 10:34 AM

Indeed Snoopycar, I love that Schimmel upright down at Chiu piano \:D Did you get a chance to try out the Perzina? How was it?

Axtremus:

Thanks for pointing that out, while I wouldn't want to mislead anybody, I won't disregard Larry Fine's pricing while shopping outside the US. Though prices in the book are indeed for pianos in the US market, based on my shopping experience, I have to disagree that it applies only in the case of Steinway. For example, the prices quoted to me by Schimmel dealers in San Francisco and Boston are very close or not too far off with the one quoted by 2 dealers in Singapore (quoted in S$). That goes the same for Petrof piano prices in San Francisco and Indonesia (Indonesian Rp) and Young Chang baby grand pianos in Minneapolis and Bangkok (Thai Baht). Those price points fall nicely in between Larry Fine's quotation.

Moreover, I didn't say one has to take Fine's number on the dot, but it's going to be useful to get an idea of price range so as to know whether one is way off or not. Hope this is not confusing \:\)
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 06:19 PM

hi all,

i used a copy of larry fine at kino****** for reference. hee hee, i got a bit of photographic memory. i couldn't get one from nlb.

the figures are good for me....and i don't even have to multiply 1.57! that only works for japanese pianos. so, a very good reference.

as for european pianos, it shows that the prices in singapore is downright absurb! that's why i stay away from these over here. unless is a collector's item or something very far more in value why would most general people pay almost twice the price or even more. these pianos eventually breaks down at the same rate as higher range japanese pianos imho.


hi snoopycar,

for the $14k model you saw, which one exactly is it? i wanna confirm something on pricing before i shoot off!
Posted by: bkkmd

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 06:39 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by juzzjazz:
Indeed Snoopycar, I love that Schimmel upright down at Chiu piano \:D Did you get a chance to try out the Perzina? How was it?

Axtremus:

Thanks for pointing that out, while I wouldn't want to mislead anybody, I won't disregard Larry Fine's pricing while shopping outside the US. Though prices in the book are indeed for pianos in the US market, based on my shopping experience, I have to disagree that it applies only in the case of Steinway. For example, the prices quoted to me by Schimmel dealers in San Francisco and Boston are very close or not too far off with the one quoted by 2 dealers in Singapore (quoted in S$). That goes the same for Petrof piano prices in San Francisco and Indonesia (Indonesian Rp) and Young Chang baby grand pianos in Minneapolis and Bangkok (Thai Baht). Those price points fall nicely in between Larry Fine's quotation.

Moreover, I didn't say one has to take Fine's number on the dot, but it's going to be useful to get an idea of price range so as to know whether one is way off or not. Hope this is not confusing \:\) [/b]
Hmmm, my experience around the cornor from you is quite a bit different when I compare Fine's price to piano prices in Bangkok. One good thing is that Yamaha and Kawai are consistantly cheaper than in the US by quite a good margin. Steinway retail price is almost double whereas Fazioli is almost identical.
Other European brands fall somewhere around 10-50% more than in Fine's book.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/06 06:53 PM

Hi Mendo, it's not an exact price as i was there last dec browsing and buying some music book. I just try out the china(budget) ones and chit with mr Chiu about imports piano. He kind of discourage it as the "conditioning" ain't right for local.... At that time, i wasn't really taking notes of what model it was as i just happen to be comparing around - not so educated yet, you know what i mean? don't shot me...
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/31/06 03:34 AM

hi snoopycar,

i'm not shooting you. just the thought a price quoted to me was for a model i've seen recently at that shop was actually quoted to you at a substantial discount??!! well, you said that was in december.

so it must be a schimmel 120i that you've seen.
;\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/31/06 03:49 AM

\:D hehehe , at that moment, any thing black sounds nice..

I wonder, so far, does my frank commentary hurt any shops? if so, i apologize.. :p
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/31/06 06:23 PM

well, as long everyone keeps their comments constructive and true, everyone is entitled to their opinion, humbly or not.

i believe this is what most people including myself to come into a forum like this to get real individual experiences which otherwise would be quite difficult to get while we are shopping or discussing pianos.

people at a few shops i met stated that not everything in any forum, including this, are truth. and they are correct on this. so take it with a pinch of salt.

some may be quick to fault the dealers or manufacturers when some minor faults are present when really certain things take time to settle. or they simply don't take good care of a piano when they should. acoustic at your home plays an even more important part on the sound of your piano immediately, while in short term, humidity creates havoc, your piano sound gets better, on longer term, it's the piano player itself!

others could be just directing forummers attention to certain models for individual, commercial or personal benefits or even satisfaction or maybe even grudges. well, that's life. in many car forums if someone come in and ask what car to buy, an audi lover will say his or her audi is the best that he or she has driven. this could be only that person is driving only audi all this while. that's how many car clubs got started and each thinks their cars are the prized ones.

one comment about bad reviews or feedbacks on one model could be just a lemon out of hundreds or thousand this manufacturer could have sold.
one comment like this makes many people stay away from this model and nobody including buyers gain from this.

and one important thing is sometime it is how the dealers at your local area prep the pianos for your playing. this is especially true is singapore. all the pianos are not 100% factory prep. i've heard many same models at different shops giving different responses to me. any good tuner or technician could prep your purchase unit into something better that what you heard at the showroom. i've got a friend whose oriental model prep by a master technician until it sounds even better than a 48in schimmel!

by filtering all the noises from these threads you can really get useful information and that's how i got to know many other wonderful pianos that i've never heard of. till today i'm still enjoying going around listening for the perfect one, which i know doesn't exist, but getting closer....

like many photographers will say, it's the person behind the camera that produces a great picture, not the camera. \:\)

i also add, not all great photographers use the same or very expensive tools.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/06/06 04:46 AM

Wow, seems so quiet.. is it due to the return of the haze?? hehehe

Any update on the Singapore Piano scene?
-The White Wilem Tell Empire190 is delicious..... voicing is very even, very sweet tone -lid closed. Bohemia128 very romantic
-Piano warehouse at Bk Bt is quiet...
-private 2nd piano seller, i've seen 2 with broken stings... 1 with 2 broken sting!! rusty tuning pins...

Have anyone been to the piano shop at ind park 2? The display sets were locked out - ahh to prevent kid from banging the keyboard as i was told. You want to test? wait ah, i'll get the key for you... but ah huh.. there were 2 korea grands there. They have expanded the teaching studio. Remember to remove your shoes before you enter - 1st Piano shop with shoeless entry!! way to go!!
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/09/06 06:22 AM

Ah! I just found this thread. I'm a newbie on these forums; posted a question about Kawai's use of synthetics in their action. I was looking for a second-hand upright within a budget of $5K, but after playing on a Yamaha YUS5 and today on a Kawai K8, I'm leaning towards doubling+ my budget for a new K8. Robert Piano @ Millenia Walk said that they'll check with Mr Chiu to see what kind of deal they can offer me on the K8.

A Sauter would be nice, but I can't justify the $$$ for an attempt to resume playing after 23 years away from the piano.
Posted by: Mountain Ash

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/09/06 07:11 AM

Have you considered the K-6, K-5, or even K-3?
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/09/06 07:32 AM

great to hear kawai k8 is in town. must go and try! how was it? i only managed to try on the k3 sometime back.

kawai and i believe yamaha too, have been using plastic actions since many years ago. saw a few 2nd units between 8 - 15yrs old using them and they still look good and work.

so i think durability is not a problem with plastics. in fact hi performance plastics are miles ahead in technical aspects compare to wood including spruce or mahogany, from my study in engineering. higher tensile strength, no warping, lesser porosity, more consistent physical properties etc.

the newer models, also with better improved plastics are even more responsive on the actions.
however, i think plastics is not the only factor that determine the better actions.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/09/06 10:50 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Ash:
Have you considered the K-6, K-5, or even K-3? [/b]
Yes, I have. I played on the K3 and K6, and then the K8. The action is identical in all three, but the sound of the K8 and its genuine sostenuto pedal win hands down.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/09/06 12:19 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mendo:
great to hear kawai k8 is in town. must go and try! how was it? i only managed to try on the k3 sometime back.
[/b]
I really like the K8, which is why I've held back on buying the second-hand BS-3A that I found. I'm now waiting for Robert Piano to get back to me with a price. Mr Chiu is presently out of the country.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/09/06 08:20 PM

i've tried the k3 and didn't like the sound at all even though the action is a level better.

the older k series like k30,k50,k60 and k80 sounds very good. i've only compared the k3 and k25 / k30. have you tried these older models and compare them with the new series?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/09/06 09:31 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mendo:
i've tried the k3 and didn't like the sound at all even though the action is a level better.

the older k series like k30,k50,k60 and k80 sounds very good. i've only compared the k3 and k25 / k30. have you tried these older models and compare them with the new series? [/b]
I'm going back to Robert Piano at Millenia Walk after I send this reply, to play some more on the Kawais. Maybe they have a K80 there. I'll be bringing along some music that I fished out from storage - I hope that the people in the showroom have good ear plugs!

My recollection of the K-3 from a couple of days ago was not positive. It sounded 'strangled'. And you'd expect there to be differences between the K-3 and the K-6 and K-8. The latter two have agraffes, duplex scales, tone release ports, and underfelted hammers. The K-6 and K-8 are also 132cm tall whereas the K-3 measures in at 122cm.

I'm also going to have a go at the Shigeru Kawai SK3. No I can't afford it, and no I don't really have space for it in my flat, but.... Aargh!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/10/06 04:04 AM

 Quote:
I'm also going to have a go at the Shigeru Kawai SK3. No I can't afford it, and no I don't really have space for it in my flat, but.... Aargh!
Oh we can split the cost and share the SK3 and put it in someone with a large house !! \:D How about a "time-share" piano??

How much? $35,000? not problem. Find 35 guys with $1000 each... But put in whos house ??
:p
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/10/06 05:16 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
 Quote:
I'm also going to have a go at the Shigeru Kawai SK3. No I can't afford it, and no I don't really have space for it in my flat, but.... Aargh!
Oh we can split the cost and share the SK3 and put it in someone with a large house !! \:D How about a "time-share" piano??

How much? $35,000? not problem. Find 35 guys with $1000 each... But put in whos house ??
:p [/b]
Hahaha! Put in my house, naturally! I'll make space for it. Actually the SK3's nett price is around $45k. If only my pocket wasn't so darned shallow! The amazing thing is that the SK3 is still cheaper than a Steinway upright.

The K8 is going for about the same price as the Yamaha YUS5 after discount, which is not surprising. There is a newly uncrated Kawai K80E available for $1.3k less.

So I started out with a $5k budget to buy a second hand upright, and now I'm trying to more than double the budget to snare the K8 or the K80E. Why can't one win Toto on demand?!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/11/06 11:07 AM

Digitus:

Actually, with $5k( depending on your bargaining skill), you can get a very good U5. You can request the "master" voicer to voice to your taste. But, even a U1(10year below, with original parts,min usage) can suffice if you're able to pick and choose a good one - good tone and touch. I can bring you to a good shop and be of assistance to you on how to pick a "worth-it" piano, if you like(PM me loh). no, i'm not a piano salesman

I like Kawai K8 too, by looking at the web, haven't tried it yet. Very advance man... For me, I'm getting a very old, refurbish K8 to play-play. Of course, nothing compares to a brand new silky smooth action and the fresh wood smell.. grand look-alike fall board .... yummy yummy.

But i think K8 has no middle slient pedal - for night practise ..
In that case, you can get the K6, if you don't mind doing without a sostenuto features....

In a enclose casing, unlike the grand with its lid open, i not sure if the effects of the duplex can be heard. can anyone confirm my thought?

Make your saliva drip... have you tried a 165 Chrisofori Grand - about 10k?? Sales guy says it's german harp, strings, hammers.. and it's very well voiced-i was thick skin to test drive it, knowing i can't afford one. Go try it tomorrow loh at Bedok branch. Agraffe, duplex..... no harshness. but i think the middle F# has a buzz :0 maybe a loose damper... hehehe
Posted by: Axtremus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/11/06 11:20 AM

snoopycar,

Why would you expect there to be a "very old, refurbished" K8 at all? The K8 is newly introduced this year. Perhaps you're thinking K80 rather than K8?

As for getting a U5 for $5k, I assume you're referring to used[/b] U5. I cannot imagine a new U5 to be available anywhere for $5k.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/11/06 02:03 PM

Aiyoh, snoopycar you are very naughty, putting ideas into my head.

Thanks for the offer with second-hand Yamahas. I've been into their showroom in Plaza Singapura and played on the U1, U3, and YUS5 (no U5 in the showroom). The tone is a little too nasal/bright for me. The YUS5 is the best of the lot though.

The lack of a damper pedal is not really a big issue. If I need to practice at night i will use my Roland A80 master controller connected to a MIDI module with piano samples.

As for enclosures, the K8 and K6 have what Kawai call tone releases.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/11/06 06:55 PM

Yep,$5k is refering to a used U5 ups for adoption \:\) I saw a 1965 Kawai K8 on the harp. Maybe it's so old, they reused the K8 - totally different action of course. Anyway that old k8 is refurbished piano.

Hehehe, i too went to a Yamaha showroom, but it's the Thomson branch. i just press a few keys on a U3 and can hear the tricord beating -slightly OoTune. is it my ears ?? The C2 is quite musically satisfying. Last 3 month got offer, $21k, now back to $24k !!

Didn't mean to phycho you.... if one can afford, of course buy new!! Want to hear scary things about used piano? dead note, mis-aligned hammer wear, loose tuning pins, metalic twinewinewine, sticky keys, "open durian" hammer felt, slugish action? Tell you a funny thing. Last time i went to the parkway parade branch, went inside about 5pm on a sunday... the kind lady was polishing the pianos. I browse around but all the fallboards were close.. yes can i help you she ask? yes pls open all the piano so that i can try them - just kidding.. So i just open a K5 and press a few notes. Wow!! very good tone, mellow and warm - although the temperature in the room was very cold, i think 20deg. I was actualy shivering, how can i sit down to play, my fingers could hardly move!! I said thanks as i move to the other section of korea and china pianos. Immeadiately the kind lady started polishing the K5 i just touch.. oops i'm sorry did i stained the PE with my messy finger prints or is it later you have a "stand by piano parade"? didn't mean to criticize anyone.. hehehe
Next time i'll wear gloves and winter jacket there... or do a 5min 5BX???

BTW is Mr Chiu from Robert Piano same as Mr Chiu from Chiu Piano at Thomson plaza?? have i mixed up their name?
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/11/06 10:43 PM

Nope, it is not the same Mr. Chiu, but yes, they are related.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/11/06 11:13 PM

snoopycar,

According to the sales rep in Yamaha's Plaza Singapura showroom, they have 3 "showroom specials" per year. The current one runs to the end of 2006, so the reversion of the C2 to $24K seems odd. On the other hand maybe the specials alternate between uprights and grands....

One of the things that swayed me towards getting a new piano is my experience with used pianos so far. I don't mean to insult anybody, but my level of confidence in local piano techs isn't very high. I'm sure that there are good used pianos out there, but my *very* heavy biz travel schedule doesn't leave me with much time to pick through what's available.

Heh heh...of course, the other thing is that I can't wait! Two weeks into struggling with my hands on the A80 and I see improvement. The desire is back!

As Wzkit says the two Mr Chiu's are related. Brothers I think. They went their separate ways after the Great Piano Dealer War many many years ago.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/11/06 11:31 PM

interesting topic on the chius. now they are even related! one used to deal with the schimmels and now the other one is taking over.
sounds like conspiracy here?

when i ask one chiu, he said he doesn't 'know' the other. when i ask the other one, he said he 'knows' the other one!
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/11/06 11:34 PM

hi digitus,

based on your very heavy schedule, would your intended k8 gets lonely?
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/11/06 11:56 PM

hi axtremus,

based on the new k8 models, the below are their estimated predecessors (from what i gather on the internet and used piano shops):

k8 1958-1966
ku5D 1969-1971
ku5B 1971-1973
bl71 1973-1980
us50-70 1980-1985
??? 1986-1888
us5-6x 1989-????
us8-9x 1990-????
us7x 1991-????
us6-7xLE 1992-????
bs3c 1994-????
??? 1995-2000
k80 2001-????
k8 2006-

maybe someone can help to fill me in.
from the list, i don't know if kawai is trying its best to confuse consumers? that'll be the day when somebody bought a refurbished k8 thinking it's the new millenium series!

ha ha ....
\:D
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/11/06 11:59 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mendo:
based on your very heavy schedule, would your intended k8 gets lonely? [/b]
I'll make up for it when I am home! \:D
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 12:27 AM

hi digitus,

you mentioned you went back to try at the robert's.

did you by any chance compare the k-x and k-xx?
perhaps you could contribute some of your personal experience.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 01:15 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mendo:
hi axtremus,

based on the new k8 models, the below are their estimated predecessors (from what i gather on the internet and used piano shops):

k8 1958-1966
ku5D 1969-1971
ku5B 1971-1973
bl71 1973-1980
us50-70 1980-1985
??? 1986-1888
us5-6x 1989-????
us8-9x 1990-????
us7x 1991-????
us6-7xLE 1992-????
bs3c 1994-????
??? 1995-2000
k80 2001-????
k8 2006-

maybe someone can help to fill me in.
from the list, i don't know if kawai is trying its best to confuse consumers? that'll be the day when somebody bought a refurbished k8 thinking it's the new millenium series!

ha ha ....
\:D [/b]
Unless he's very un-inform ... \:D (kenna conn)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 01:21 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:
 Quote:
Originally posted by mendo:
based on your very heavy schedule, would your intended k8 gets lonely? [/b]
I'll make up for it when I am home! \:D [/b]
She'll have a companion, mr Roland.... ;\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 01:25 AM

Why should there be a piano world war? izzit about $$$$ ? Anything to do with the Eagle Piano Company?? wink wink

A price war would be good .... 3 cheers !!!
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 04:48 AM

Hi Mendo,

The obvious comparison would be between the K8 and the K80E, but I would have had to go to the Centrepoint showroom to do that. It didn't seem to be worth the excursion for a saving of 10%. Besides, I was already in the process of talking myself into buying the K8. \:D
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 05:54 AM

Oh, and I bought the K8 this afternoon. Delivery will be on 20 Nov after a test in the showroom against the display unit on 18 Nov.

In between today and my last visit to the showroom Mr Chiu had worked on the showroom unit. What had been an impressive upright was now awesome.

The tone is rich and full-bodied. Dynamic range and projection are great. In fact this piano will debunk the myth that you need a bright piano to cut through a mix (if you play pop/jazz in an ensemble). One of the staff (never got his name) played some boogie woogie and the piano was leaping off the floor.

The financial discomfort of the purchase is going to be worth it!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 07:06 AM

Wow leow !! Congrats !! When's the open house for us to meddle your new "baby"?? All my pianos added together, still cannot buy the K8 \:\)

Can i dig some info from you? How was the K8 placed at the showroom?
1)Fully carpeted?
2)piano place against wall or another piano?
3)false ceiling?
4)Aircon

It always sounds so nice in the showroom. I wish i can stay in one. I had to use a 1 inch fibre foldable matteress and put behind the soundboard to make peace with my neighbours ..... hehehe


now you can sleep well .....
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 07:45 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Can i dig some info from you? How was the K8 placed at the showroom?
1)Fully carpeted?
2)piano place against wall or another piano?
3)false ceiling?
4)Aircon
[/b]
Oh have you never visited Robert Piano's Millenia Walk showroom? It is a huge space but well-damped so the acoustics are OK. Yes there are carpets, false ceiling (could be acoustically treated but I'm not sure) and of course air-conditioning.

The uprights are placed back-to-back. Actually this arrangement is probably necessary so that some sound energy is reflected back to towards the front of the piano. The K8 has tone release ports behind the music rack and under the keyboard. These help the instrument to project better too.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 08:11 AM

Sounds like i'll have to take a trip downtown...
to test drive the K8, but my dream remains. the next one have to be a GP, hiak hiak haik . Do Robert's take trade in?

I have this fear to overcome actually. I very scared the sale person overlook at me while i struggle alone to play a pop piece. Sounds like the Roberts are experts. I'll have to wear a P-plate on my neck to self declare "Adult beginner" playing , stay clear, please stay outside temporary or put on your ipod.

I went to bishan cristofori. There's a expert there. When he "demo", nobody else dare to match up .... all becomes mice \:\) hehehe But the bedok sales are very much better, they let you browse in peace, see the engine, take it for a spin. and so on. am i advertising again?

Do you have this experience? When i go to small piano shops to play-play-test-test with what i have like marriage d'amour or coup de coeur, they all ask if i'm a teacher ??? My jaw drop. Ahh, like this low standard anyhow also can become teacher huh? I think they are joking or insinuating. Maybe what they are trying to say is "what are you waiting for"? Buy one piano quick and get out of here \:\) .... joking lah.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 08:46 AM

already 2 purchases made since start of this thread.

great singapore purchass is on!
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 08:57 AM

hi digitus,

on the comparisons between the older and newer series, i'm not sure why the older ones are costing more. discounted price of k30 was at least 10% more than the promotional price of k3 and the same goes for k60 and k6. i got the quote a few weeks back when the k8 wasn't in yet.
it was the sound quality difference between k30 and k3 that justify the higher price of older one. the actions between the two was that obvious to me.

however i think you mentioned k80 is cheaper compare to k8 now
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 08:59 AM

"the actions between the two was that obvious to me."

sorry, meant to type not obvious to me.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 09:40 AM

Hey snoopycar,

If I was you I'd just grow a thicker skin. \:\) Really! After all, you are the one paying money for the piano heh heh.

I haven't touched a piano in 23 years and I can't play for nuts. But there are some basic things I can do myself to assess touch and tone that don't require me to blaze away on the keyboard. Heck, I even brought along some sheet music and stumbled through a couple of pieces.

After (or even before) basic investigation I actually want to have an expert demonstrator show what is possible on the instrument.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 03:33 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mendo:
on the comparisons between the older and newer series, i'm not sure why the older ones are costing more. discounted price of k30 was at least 10% more than the promotional price of k3 and the same goes for k60 and k6. i got the quote a few weeks back when the k8 wasn't in yet.
it was the sound quality difference between k30 and k3 that justify the higher price of older one. the actions between the two was that obvious to me.

however i think you mentioned k80 is cheaper compare to k8 now [/b]
I can't comment on the pricing of anything other than the K-8 and K80E because I don't have any pricing older than one week! But yes, the price I was quoted for the K80E was less than for the K-8. I assume (maybe wrongly) that the K-8 replaces the K80E at the price point that competes against the Yamaha U5 (and now YUS5).
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 03:38 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Do Robert's take trade in?
[/b]
Yes they do! \:\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 06:58 PM

Digitus, are you Artemov??

2 purchase? Sorry i got lost. Which is the other recently purchase piano?

Yes, thicker skin is slowly growing - especially if i'm only secretly browsing, kaykay.. shhh, don't tell Roberts i'm coming. Actually, piano "window shopping" is an experience, as far as for me. I used to press a few key to listen for sustain.. too nervious to play anything. My girlfriend says, kalapak, like this how you're going to be a concert pianist? gotta get more "free" exposure, have to break the barrier of inferior complex... bla bla bla.. but come to think of it, it true. So i started "free" out door training by visiting as many shops as possible. Twice, little pretty girl stand beside me to watch... :0 "wow this old uncle can play or what"?? too young, no HP no... hehehe

Digitus, i also started playing in around ~'85
Now, i still have get even grade 3 !!! and still learning scale - just can't get my Dbminor 3 ocatve right yet... more drills tonight. You made the right choice coming back, somemore with a new piano man.... Welcome back to piano world... did you suddenly became romantic? need to express you feelings -- ?? ;]
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 08:23 PM

yup, 2 purchases that i counted, juzzjazz & digitus. and both from robert piano.

now artemov is anxious
well, if you can wait, take your time.

like my case when i buy my new dslr camera, it's like should i wait till i get the PERFECT camera that will come out in 6-12 months or can i afford to waste all those good shooting opportunities that i'll miss without THAT camera.

translate that into piano, i could easily learn around 6 short pieces and 1 serious sonata during that time. I've got a permanent job too. i'm not asking you to splurge your live savings. now there are many good pianos at really affordable prices. you won't need a BB or Steinway D to play fur elise. i'm still practising my rach and chopin on my 30yr old kawai and have no problem.
just personnally a slightly, more improved actions compare to my existing one would be a bit more perfect and that's why i'm still in this piano forum.

normally when i buy my camera lens, i go to my regular forum and join a mass order to get really good price. before you shoot me down that this is a piano (ahem , very expensive one leh) that you are buying, let me tell you that lens aren't cheap either. the nikon vr 300mm for my birdshooting is ard us$4.4k. that excess money came when i forgo expensive and overpriced german models and now happily i have 2 nice hobbies, one started when my mum moved in a piano into our home when i was 5 and i hated it, and the other when i was in my teens. i'm still growing older by the day and more hobbies are starting to come into picture. i'm not a professional in either "hobbies", like i said but these hobbies have served me well throughout all these years and will continue to do so.

like good lens, only very "good" piano also got good resale value and that's what most people in this island take note of. fyi some really good, discontinued lens sell for more than its original price in the 2nd hand market. for most general pianos, this concept cannot apply as generally newer models just keep getting better and better while your old piano, if not kept in best of conditions, will have problem in time to come. certain rare europeans may defy this concept and that's also a risk you must be willing to take.

this reselling is useful when you realise your tools no longer meets your requirements and you can upgrade easier without considerable loss of money or time. knowing when to sell is very important here.

since so many people are getting from one shop, may as well meet up to get a good bargain.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 08:45 PM

Oh ya, i for got about justjazz, sorry...

Digitus, can reveal how much is the price of the K8, final comsumer figure, not the RSRP. Thanks. or PM me if not so convenient...

Now, back to Monday blues
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 09:38 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Digitus, are you Artemov??
[/b]
Heh heh...no I'm not! Really really....

 Quote:

Twice, little pretty girl stand beside me to watch... :0 "wow this old uncle can play or what"?? too young, no HP no... hehehe
[/b]
Shame on you for even thinking it!

 Quote:

Digitus, i also started playing in around ~'85
Now, i still have get even grade 3 !!! and still learning scale - just can't get my Dbminor 3 ocatve right yet... more drills tonight. You made the right choice coming back, somemore with a new piano man.... Welcome back to piano world... did you suddenly became romantic? need to express you feelings -- ?? ;] [/b]
And I'm sure you are enjoying every minute of the struggle!

As for myself, some people say its part of the mid-life crisis. :p But it has more to do with the fact that I really[/b] needed to get a better work/life balance. I decided to consider buying a piano after a I nearly quit my job because of a particularly heavy period on the road. (I use Singapore Airlines like a very expensive bus service!)

So I fished out some old sheet music and my old copy of Hanon. The first week with just the first 5 exercises in Hanon was filled with frustration and aching forearms! When I saw how much progress I was making I decided to bite the financial bullet and get a piano. So here I am 1.5 weeks later with a K-8 on the way, spending 2.5 times more than my initial budget for a used piano. :p

Actually I struggle a lot on the keyboard, because I have grand ambitions with the repertoire, but I am disadvantaged by small hands (for a pianist) and slim fingers. So I stopped taking exams after Grade 5, but continued with lessons up to about Grade 8 level, playing purely for pleasure.

There, end of grandmother story! \:D
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 09:43 PM

snoopycar, just PM'd you.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 10:00 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mendo:
now artemov is anxious
well, if you can wait, take your time.
[/b]
I think artemov is thinking of waiting until early next year when Pianoman brings in Brodmann pianos. I had considered waiting too, but the itch had grown too strong.

 Quote:

you won't need a BB or Steinway D to play fur elise. i'm still practising my rach and chopin on my 30yr old kawai and have no problem.
[/b]
Spot on!

 Quote:

just personnally a slightly, more improved actions compare to my existing one would be a bit more perfect and that's why i'm still in this piano forum.
[/b]
That's one reason that got me interested in Kawai, after I tried a 15 year-old BS-3A in Pianoman. Since this purchase is likely to last me a lifetime (unless I win the lottery!) I decided to stretch my budget for the best I could afford, with an action that is good and also able to better withstand the high humidity in Singapore. Yamaha also uses composites in their action, but I like the Kawai tone a lot more.

 Quote:

since so many people are getting from one shop, may as well meet up to get a good bargain. [/b]
Spoken like a true Singaporean. Quick, before I pay up the balance! \:D
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/12/06 11:28 PM

Ya, cheaper leh... budget tight... the other shop selling 1k less leh... my friend introduce one leh, cheaper leh - i cash & carry, no need warranty, i tune myself... don't count GST leh..
Got installment boh? Courts also have leh.

Later he will ask me go fly kite!! \:\)

Wow carbon reinforce action - hi tech, cutting edge technology(faster repetition).. drool

Why can't they deliver sooner? 20th Nov a lucky day? hmmm is it your birthday present? Every boy thinks of a good reason to buy toys..

"Great" 8, GREAT!! lucky no. i'm striving for that too. my target is by 75 years old.

That right, we're here to enjoy piano music, for pleasure, leisure, entertainment(nope neigbour don't complaint), no need to stress. no need teacher, DIY.

Happy shopping guys
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 12:50 AM

u mean besides robert piano, there someone else selling the k8?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 01:10 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Ya, cheaper leh... budget tight... the other shop selling 1k less leh... my friend introduce one leh, cheaper leh - i cash & carry, no need warranty, i tune myself... don't count GST leh..
Got installment boh? Courts also have leh.

Later he will ask me go fly kite!! \:\)

Wow carbon reinforce action - hi tech, cutting edge technology(faster repetition).. drool

Why can't they deliver sooner? 20th Nov a lucky day? hmmm is it your birthday present? Every boy thinks of a good reason to buy toys..

"Great" 8, GREAT!! lucky no. i'm striving for that too. my target is by 75 years old.

That right, we're here to enjoy piano music, for pleasure, leisure, entertainment(nope neigbour don't complaint), no need to stress. no need teacher, DIY.

Happy shopping guys [/b]
They have a tie-in with Citibank's time payment scheme. There may be tie-ups with other credit card vendors as well.

20th November because I'm travelling on biz this week, test piano in showroom on 18th, deliver on 20th. 19th delivery not possible because of other personal commitments. \:\)
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 02:04 AM

is there any discounts for showroom pieces?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 03:01 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mendo:
is there any discounts for showroom pieces? [/b]
For sure you'll get the discount off list price, but whether you'll get any more off for showroom units is something you'll have to ask Mr Chiu (if you are in the Millenia Walk showroom). All pricing decisions are referred back to him, as far as I can tell. \:\)
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 03:11 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mendo:
u mean besides robert piano, there someone else selling the k8? [/b]
Apparently so. Probably a parallel imports with no manufacturer warranty. But that usually isn't a major factor because Kawai's QC levels are very high. I recall seeing an advertisement in Section 72 (Musical Instruments) of the ST Classifieds about a shop in IMM importing Yamaha, Kawai, etc.

One reason I bought from RP is Mr Chiu himself. He's a master tech with more years than my age (which is approaching the magical half-century mark).
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 03:15 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:
 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Ya, cheaper leh... budget tight... the other shop selling 1k less leh... my friend introduce one leh, cheaper leh - i cash & carry, no need warranty, i tune myself... don't count GST leh..
Got installment boh? Courts also have leh.

Later he will ask me go fly kite!! \:\)

Wow carbon reinforce action - hi tech, cutting edge technology(faster repetition).. drool

Why can't they deliver sooner? 20th Nov a lucky day? hmmm is it your birthday present? Every boy thinks of a good reason to buy toys..

"Great" 8, GREAT!! lucky no. i'm striving for that too. my target is by 75 years old.

That right, we're here to enjoy piano music, for pleasure, leisure, entertainment(nope neigbour don't complaint), no need to stress. no need teacher, DIY.

Happy shopping guys [/b]
They have a tie-in with Citibank's time payment scheme. There may be tie-ups with other credit card vendors as well.

20th November because I'm travelling on biz this week, test piano in showroom on 18th, deliver on 20th. 19th delivery not possible because of other personal commitments. \:\) [/b]
Oh sorry, I was referring to RP about the instalment plan thing. I didn't see Mendo's question about the 'other' shop until now. :p
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 03:44 AM

Hi Digitus, may I know the price of the Kawai K8 too? Thanks.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 03:47 AM

Hi Mendo,

I have no reference point for prices because I didn't have any until a week or two ago. So I can't comment on prices before and after availability of the new K series.

Yes, I was quoted a lower price for the K80E than the K-8. My assumption (which may be wrong) is that the K-8 has replaced the K80E at the price point that competes against the Yamaha U5 (and now YUS5).
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 04:12 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
Hi Digitus, may I know the price of the Kawai K8 too? Thanks. [/b]
jarjar, I have PM'd you.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 04:42 AM

Thanks Digitus for the PM.

Hope you all won't find my sense of humour irritating, \:\) .... Piano is seriously fun.
Just trying to inject some comedy and make the reading filled with laugther, that's if i got the frequency right with everyone...

EYE-M-M , huh? I can hear unison beating when i hear one. Will someone help to go down to press a few keys and verify, as a second opinion? I can't comment much. But please, someone go down and check it out and see if it's the same experience response i get. I wanted to say alot, but can't. I can't say good or bad. But it can be a very interesting one.

Me?? Thinking about what?? (innocent)
I have only 1 piano idol, she's in Juliet now.
Wonder how she's doing..... no update at the website... She inspired in to return to piano... oops my secret have been revealed..
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 04:52 AM

Hi Digitus,
Thank you very much for your PM. It is a lot cheaper than in Malaysia!
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 06:16 AM

Jarjar,

You are welcome! I can't believe that the K-8 is so costly in Malaysia! If you want something in the same class (but with differnet tone) as the K-8 then look at the Yanaha YUS5. If the YUS5 is similarly priced then you are out of luck.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 07:35 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:

If you want something in the same class (but with differnet tone) as the K-8 then look at the Yanaha YUS5. [/b]
ha, not even close to the k80 class.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 07:37 AM

hi snoopycar,

what's with imm?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 07:47 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mendo:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:

If you want something in the same class (but with differnet tone) as the K-8 then look at the Yanaha YUS5. [/b]
ha, not even close to the k80 class. [/b]
Oooh.... But that's what the K-8 is positioned against in Singapore. I wonder if Kawai Malaysia mis-quoted jarjar on the K-8 price.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 08:04 AM

yeah, i was telling someone from RP that their kawais are already overpriced during the last GSS where yamaha prices are dropping like mad and continue until today.

10-30years ago, there around 10-20% premium on yamaha over kawai, and very soon you'll see the reverse.

personally i believe kawai not only have overtaken yamahas in action, sound texture and dynamics on their uprights, but also the concert grands.

but the fact that they spend so little on adverts means they should still keep price down as before and this is what irks me.

the nonchalant attitude at the shops didn't help either to some beginner buyers, like artemov.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 09:23 AM

For the past couple of years Norbert has been predicting a disruption in the market as the Chinese OEMs get better and better at making high-quality instruments. We've seen the Japanese and Taiwanese do it in the consumer electronics industry, for example.

It looks like Yamaha has already been reacting to this market movement. My guess is that Kawai has also seen the writing on the wall, if the pricing of the K-8 in Singapore is anything to go by. According to jarjar the price of the K-8 in Malaysia is about double that in Singapore, but it's probably just a matter of time before Kawai Malaysia has to adjust their pricing downwards signficantly.

I was briefly intrigued by the imminent arrival of Brodmann in Singapore next January. But my personal feeling is that the price premium of the Kawai K-8 over the Chinese-made Brodmann BU132 is worth paying for. I appreciate the way Kawai has used technology in making an upright with great tone and a fantastic action that is better able to withstand our tropical climate.

There is a great deal of subjectivity of course, because there is a strong emotional component in the way a person reacts to any particular instrument.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 09:51 AM

I try my best not to post unfavorable comments to any shops. I've joked about style of sales, enviroment, experience... but i better not joke about imm. .... aaaa are you from imm??

Aiya, go and look-see-look-see lah - wah alot of nice ebony polish...
Aiya, go and press-press-massage-massage the sound lah .....

I have ask, aa? how come like this?? It's not XXXX leh. It's like this one, after you buy, then we XXXX it lor. So cold.......

Can Mendo volentier to go imm to check it out? just for fun and learning experience?
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 05:23 PM

which floor?
never see before even though have been there many times.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 06:11 PM

Mendo: you have to go to the "back lane" of 3rd flr. Semi warehouse-like area. Take the main wakalator, behind the swingdoor, beside the passenger lift. or see Sat classified ads for address. you gotta recky around man..... it's an jungle out there \:\)
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 10:44 PM

you are saying they got brand new kawais or yamahas over there?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/13/06 11:21 PM

No.... Japan imports.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/14/06 12:20 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
No.... Japan imports. [/b]
So are these re-conditioned pianos or new ones?
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/14/06 02:33 AM

Haha ... I am not anxious lah.
Too busy these days with work.

Looks like I am the absolute beginner. Can't even play do-re-mi \:\(

Great to see that at least two Sg forummers have bought their pianos.

For me, might have to wait, but certainly not till next year! GST 7%!!!!

Got lobang to buy a used European piano \:\) Woohoo!
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/14/06 02:49 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by artemov:

For me, might have to wait, but certainly not till next year! GST 7%!!!!

Got lobang to buy a used European piano \:\) Woohoo! [/b]
Oh, I forgot about the GST increase!!

So which piano have you got the lobang for? Are you going to take lessons, or are you going to DIY?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/14/06 03:11 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by artemov:
Haha ... I am not anxious lah.
Too busy these days with work.

Looks like I am the absolute beginner. Can't even play do-re-mi \:\(

Great to see that at least two Sg forummers have bought their pianos.

For me, might have to wait, but certainly not till next year! GST 7%!!!!

Got lobang to buy a used European piano \:\) Woohoo! [/b]
Have...
http://www.pianoforte-sg.com
They have nostalgical European used/recondition grands and upright. Give Mervin a e-mail, very nice and honest guy.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/14/06 03:31 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:
 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
No.... Japan imports. [/b]
So are these re-conditioned pianos or new ones? [/b]
oops, i didn't mention, of course used imports lah. \:D You must be thinking car parallel importers.. i saw 1 6mths K8 at $9000 hehehe gotcha :p did your heartbeat skip?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/14/06 04:11 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
oops, i didn't mention, of course used imports lah. \:D You must be thinking car parallel importers.. i saw 1 6mths K8 at $9000 hehehe gotcha :p did your heartbeat skip? [/b]
Ah gray market pianos. Good price for the K-8! Even if I had known I would probably still have bought a new one. That $9K price for the used K-8 tells me that my piano will have good re-sale value should I change my piano in the future for the Shigeru Kawai SK3. When I win the lottery!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/14/06 10:33 PM

Artemov, don't worry or rush into piano, it comes naturally... Maybe one day you pass by some piano shop, and hear me playing ballad pour adeline, and you finds it romantic and buy one piano immeadiately to learn.....
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/15/06 12:05 AM

Hi snoopycar,

Wah ... maybe I will find you romantic and ... oops ... just joking lah.
I used to listen to Richard Clayderman a great deal when I was young. But these days I listen mostly to classical music, especially the Baroque, Classical, early Romantic periods.

Yah, I am taking it slowly. It's a big investment and I am worried about the economy too \:\(
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/15/06 02:54 AM

No need big investment to get satisfaction.
You need to be able to find the lowest cost piano, that performs to good specf. Means that it has been "prepared" by a Piano tech that has a great heart that cares. What i mean is that the piano might have some cosmetic imperfection, but mechanically and acoustically great. There are means and ways to obtain these 3.5 star piano.

You'll have to accept her "old age". it may be older than you. But the body is great. She just had her beauty surgery done - i mean her vocal cords...... Her self consious have been re-programmed. She execrise regularly so that the pivots are not sticky. She have just bought new leather high heels and she can jump very high - the actions were replaced.

I mean there are used japanese piano where the actions and strings have been replace. Casing repolish or repolyestered. But, it still need voicing to bring the tone to a acceptable level. Hammer need to be realigned to the strings, need to re-regulate everything. Hard to find one, but it's possible. if interested, i can help you .... be thick skin like me, i bring you go piano shopping... $2000~$2800 can already.

Nevermind you can't play do-re-mi, 3 keys isn't too hard. Soon you can play fa-so-la-ti-to...
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/15/06 03:24 AM

I wonder how many pianos are imported into Singapore annually - 1) Used (majority grey piano from japan) and 2) New (japanese, chinese, european).
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/15/06 05:08 AM

hehehe, here's the link to my piano idol ;\)
Really admire her talent, so amazing, words can't describe.. and so cute.


http://www.clareyeo.com

we support you....... "jia you" (cheering)
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/20/06 07:46 AM

Hi Digitus, I don't know if the dealer has quoted me the wrong price but I've also asked the price of the K-5 and they are just RM10k cheaper than the K8 which means it is still few thousand more expensive than the price you paid for the K-8. So I guess the price for the K-8 is correct. Well, I wonder if I could buy in Singapore and shipped it to Malaysia as used furniture \:\) . I guess after adding the shipping cost it still a lot cheaper. By the way, have you asked the price of the Shigeru Kawai SK3? Here is selling at RM126k. I tried it b4 and it is amazing!
Thank you for the recommendation on Yamaha but I don't really like the tone of Yamaha. It is too bright for me. I tried a few used Yamaha and their sound pierce my ears. so I guess they don't age well.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/20/06 08:37 AM

jarjar, buying in Singapore and shipping to Malaysia is an option I guess, as long as Robert Piano does not have any agreement with the Malaysian Kawai agent to avoid cross-border sales. I guess you could always arrange delivery yourself. But your shipper must know how to handle/crate pianos properly.

About the YUS5 it was worth listening to right? At least you know what your choices are in that price range.

Yes I agree with you about the SK3. I'll PM the price to you. In Singapore its significantly cheaper than the Steinway upright!!
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/20/06 08:48 AM

Right, my brother is in Singapore. Maybe I could let the piano being delivered to his place then I shipped to KL by myself. My brother had shipped some furniture back from Singapore to KL so I guess it is not a problem but dunno about any tax from custom or not. Will try to check out the Yamaha this weekend. They are Shimmel upright in Malaysia too but haven't tried it yet.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/20/06 11:22 AM

I personally find the Schimmel tone a little to bright for my taste. They are known as the European Yamaha. Ironically, Yamaha owns just under 25% of Schimmel.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/20/06 06:33 PM

Hi Digitus, have your new K8 arrive at home?
Having fun already ?? .... new wood aroma..hmmmm
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/20/06 08:31 PM

jarjar, if not mistaken you will have to settle a 15 + 10% (duty + sales tax) if you bring piano into Malaysia, be it used or new. And, I believe piano in Singapore is relatively cheaper than in Malaysia because Singapore only pay GST of 4-5%?

As for Kawai agent in Malaysia the last I heard Robert (Singapore) took over the Kawai agency from KC United in Malaysia.

Regards.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/21/06 02:27 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Hi Digitus, have your new K8 arrive at home?
Having fun already ?? .... new wood aroma..hmmmm [/b]
Yes, it arrived just before noon yesterday. But the delivery was only mildly exciting -- three guys had to slide the piano on its sled two floors down to my flat. Compare this to the delivery of Wzkit's Sauter grand, carried 24 floors up to his flat.

I've been getting keyboard time in before leaving on a trip tonight. Away for 7 days...aargh! \:\(

And the piano already needs a tuning. I'll give it 3 or 4 weeks before I call in Mr Chiu. Might be earlier if I can't take it anymore! :p
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/21/06 03:11 AM

Wow..you make it sound like my Sauter delivery was the mother of all piano moves :p

But then again, it probably was!

P.S I think you can get your first tuning around 2 weeks after delivery
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/21/06 04:12 AM

Wizkit
Wow, does it cost $100 per floor ? That's what i heard ..... that makes $2400 !!! got ask for discount(typical singaporean style) ?? hehehe
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/21/06 04:27 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Wzkit:
Wow..you make it sound like my Sauter delivery was the mother of all piano moves :p

But then again, it probably was!

P.S I think you can get your first tuning around 2 weeks after delivery [/b]
Well, yours is the first I've heard of a piano of any description (let alone an expensive 6 foot+ grand) being hauled up 24 storeys!

I think two weeks is about right. I don't think I can tolerate the piano being out of tune much beyond that! Anyway, I've got 3 free tunings for the first year.

Unfortunately, my ears are somewhat fussy, and I'm toying with the idea of doing touch-up tunings myself, or get help from one of my friends who tunes his own Petrof grand.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/21/06 05:08 AM

pppsss, don't let robert knows you idea.... \:\)
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/21/06 09:19 AM

Wow, hauled up 24 storeys? Why didn't use the lift? My piano was sent to my 13th floor using the lift so it is quite an easy job.

Jay, you mean I have to pay 25% of tax? I heard that we could shipped it back as used furniture, not musical intrument then could bypass the tax. I heard a lot of Japanese grands are imported in this way.
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/21/06 10:15 AM

Lift was too small in my flat for the piano to fit in. So, there really wasn't any choice. Anyway, I had already factored in the cost of transport ($140 per floor) into the final price, so it wasn't an issue. Its better to pay a little more to get really good movers to do it, especially in a hazardous move like this one! Better not be penny wise, but pound foolish!
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/21/06 10:41 AM

I did a calculation. It is still way cheaper to buy in SG then shipped to KL even include the 25% tax! What are Malaysia Kawai agents thinking?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/21/06 11:10 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
Wow, hauled up 24 storeys? Why didn't use the lift? My piano was sent to my 13th floor using the lift so it is quite an easy job.

Jay, you mean I have to pay 25% of tax? I heard that we could shipped it back as used furniture, not musical intrument then could bypass the tax. I heard a lot of Japanese grands are imported in this way. [/b]
When there a "will", there's a way.....
Just say it's a wardrobe... or a computer table
Or go to the showroom every week to play, then after a few months, the sales guys will give you a special price, really.

Jay, maybe you can try to negotiate for a best price as the price displayed are usually Retail price. \:\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/21/06 11:20 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Wzkit:
Lift was too small in my flat for the piano to fit in. So, there really wasn't any choice. Anyway, I had already factored in the cost of transport ($140 per floor) into the final price, so it wasn't an issue. Its better to pay a little more to get really good movers to do it, especially in a hazardous move like this one! Better not be penny wise, but pound foolish! [/b]
Huh ??? Would it be cheaper to hire a TOWER CRANE ??? \:D

I can't imagine the muscle guys have to twist and turn 24 story up !!! really solid man..
The amazing thing is if they can deliver without a single scratch!!

Wizkit, post some picture of your sauter and scenic view leh....
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/21/06 11:51 AM

Crane would have cost me at least $5K, last I heard...

Anyway, here're the photos of the Mother of all Deliveries...
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/13815.html
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/21/06 06:38 PM

Mama-mia!!

ok ok, yeah, maybe helium balloons should lighten the load a bit .. i'll try the DHL balloon next time..
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/21/06 09:16 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
Jay, you mean I have to pay 25% of tax? I heard that we could shipped it back as used furniture, not musical intrument then could bypass the tax. I heard a lot of Japanese grands are imported in this way. [/b]
Yes... 25% new or used. Oops.. sorry that is for upright piano. For grand I think is only 10% sales tax, no duty.

Shipping as used furnite.... .... that I'm not sure. When I import my furniture from Australia many years ago, it is clearly stated in the B/L it's content.

I am suprise, if is a lot of Japanese grands been imported this way, I guess the Malaysia Customs must be sleeping all the time.
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/21/06 09:34 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
I did a calculation. It is still way cheaper to buy in SG then shipped to KL even include the 25% tax! What are Malaysia Kawai agents thinking? [/b]
:D jarjar, Kawai is represented by the same agent in Singapore.

Oh ya, jarjar tell them there is not teacher or referral involved. Maybe, you can get another 10-15% off.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/22/06 05:31 AM

hehehe jarjar, you can buy K8.... then
Sell it to xxx piano shop for $800
Then he sell you for $1000, with official reciept!! So you pay Malaysia tax, but less lor... good idea? hehehe legal ???

But if you decide to buy from robert malaysia, leave yout toyota camry at home, borrow a kancil and park infront of the showroom... that should add another 5% off bargain power.....
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/22/06 09:20 AM

Jay, actually I'm looking for a grand. I wonder how much is Kawai GE30 selling in Sg. It is RM55k here in Chamber music. I've checked out a few used Kawai 6' grand like RX3, GS-30, CA-40. About 20+ years old pianos selling at RM33-35k and the RX3 made in 1997 selling at RM48k.
Snoopycar, unfortunately I don't own a toyota camry ya \:\) . hehe.
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/22/06 08:12 PM

Ar... RM 55K for GE 30 (5'5"?). Isn't GE entry level models of Kawai. I prefer the RX or Shigeru or the Yammie Big C or S for Japanese pianos. On the other hand, you can get a Petrof V for RM 57K (5'3"?)(USD 15K) or Petrof IV (5'8"?)for RM 59K (USD 16K). IMO, after some tweaking to these pianos they're capable of having wonderful tone and loads of sustaining power.

AND, used for RM33-35K, that is alot of money for a 20+ years old. Furthermore, I thought these pianos are declared as used furniture. They pay no tax. \:D hee hee... It shouldn't be selling at that price....

btw, jarjar what happen to your used yamaha u1 that you just bought?

Regards.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/22/06 10:40 PM

maybe kenna "entice" by the beautiful sound of a grand..... \:\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/23/06 12:47 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Wzkit:
Crane would have cost me at least $5K, last I heard...

Anyway, here're the photos of the Mother of all Deliveries...
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/13815.html [/b]
Wizkit: I saw a de-humidifier in your room. Where did you get it from? I saw 2 types at mustafa last friday midnight shopping... ~$700. need external air intake and hot air outlet, right?
\:\)
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/23/06 01:04 AM

No need for external intake or hot air outlet, for mine at least. Just a normal box set up in a room. Mine was donated for free, so I got lucky \:\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/23/06 02:53 AM

oohh... the ones i saw was actually air-con with dehumidify function.. thanks
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/23/06 03:00 AM

Wizkit: i saw a old 2nd hand sauter upright for sale in the yahoo auction. Went to see... sianzz, 1 strings broken, all very worn out, thought i could get a good deal, gave up. The beauty is the 4 legged foot.... easy to vacuum the floor, hehehe
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/23/06 06:04 AM

Hi Jay, I didn't buy the Yamaha U1, Erwandy is the one who bought the Yamaha U1. My piano is a Challen. Petrof is nice but I think it needs a lot of maintenance and voicing to get the best tone out of it. My piano teacher used to have a Petrof upright, she broke a string of it infront of me. Hehe.
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/23/06 06:14 AM

The GE30 (5'5") is not really an entry level. It has got the Millenium III action and duplex scales. I tried the one at Chambers Music and like the tone and touch very much.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/23/06 09:04 AM

jarjar, is the Challen made in malaysian company who also makes the C. Steinbach piano? How's the sound" good?

wow! GE30, gotta go down to roberts this weekend to "check it out"....
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/23/06 09:40 AM

snoopycar,
Yup, the Challen is made in Malaysia. Their website is http://www.viennamusic.com.my/. The tone is ok, not much dynamic and I don't like the action. Well, with that kind of price, nothing much to expect from it.
Yeah, could you please help me to check out the price of the GE30 in Sg?
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/23/06 12:09 PM

Snoopycar: There's a nice 2nd hand Sauter upright in excellent condition at Raffles Piano. Well worth a visit. If I had space and money, I would take it as my second piano!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/23/06 06:01 PM

Wzkit: a new piano shop? i wasn't updated!!! Where is Raffles Piano?

i took picture with a C steinbach baby grand at the Hyatt hotel at jb when no one was watching.... hehehe

"can't beat out the sound"? you can try to open the front cover to let out the tone, just like a grand.. could be overwhelming

poor dynamics? sianz right? especially when you go piano window shopping and "met" others more responsive ones.... time to upgrade soon, huh?
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/23/06 08:46 PM

That's the place where I bought my Sauter. Its at Vitoria Concert Hall. Just outside the box office. Those who have been there have been mighty impressed - myself included. Totally no pressure at all. I was there every week for nearly 8 months before making my decision, and I never had any pressure. Alvin's a fantastic guy to talk to, and one of the best technicians in Singapore. Prices are typical of German pianos in that league, but with the quality of the product and the service you're getting, I wouldn't complain!
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/23/06 10:18 PM

opss.. jarjar... sorry... got mistaken... hee hee.... my apology.... ;\)

I was told by the salesperson who distribute Kawai (New) that the GE is the entry level piano. The RX is a better of the Kawais. Anyways, I think they are nice piano.

As for maintenance it is the same for all piano. Under extreme conditions like in Malaysia or Singapore, I am not suprise many pianos need extra attention. But, how many owners actually do it!.
And IMO, Japanese piano tends have less problem with the action mainly because of the ABS materials in the action. Then again, you have other critical components such as soundboard, bridge, pinblock etc.. that are wood constructed which are sensitive to humidity. Something you cannot see even if is already damaged, yet the piano still sound :p

How old is the teacher's upright? And, wow.. she broke a string. I guess with this climate, many of the pianos have rusty strings. Also, the poor hammer contact and shape (regulation off) can cause broken strings too. (from www.ptg.org) It is normal to have broken strings.
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/23/06 10:35 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
jarjar, is the Challen made in malaysian company who also makes the C. Steinbach piano? How's the sound" good?
[/b]
If I am not mistaken C.Steinbach have different models. They one I tried many years ago was the produced by Samick. It is the same piano as the WSU series. Nice.. for me. \:D
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/23/06 11:44 PM

hehehe here goes....

Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/24/06 12:11 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
i took picture with a C steinbach baby grand at the Hyatt hotel at jb when no one was watching.... hehehe

"can't beat out the sound"? you can try to open the front cover to let out the tone, just like a grand.. could be overwhelming

poor dynamics? sianz right? especially when you go piano window shopping and "met" others more responsive ones.... time to upgrade soon, huh? [/b]
Maybe it is the piano or most probably it is the hotel. I know for sure hotels' pianos are the worst
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/24/06 02:34 AM

then next time, you gotta record it with your cellphone and put it in the youtube for us to hear too ..... LOL
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/24/06 08:05 AM

Jay, no problem \:D The GE supposes to be the entry level for Kawai but a lot of people think that the GE30 is comparable to the RX but just in a less elegant cabinet. You could tried it out at Chambers music in Sg.Wang. I like it very much but don't like the price. I have checked out the petrof upright actually but don't really like the tone of the 131 in the showroom and the price is so expensive. However I like my teacher's petrof.
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/24/06 08:13 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
Jay, no problem \:D The GE supposes to be the entry level for Kawai but a lot of people think that the GE30 is comparable to the RX but just in a less elegant cabinet. You could tried it out at Chambers music in Sg.Wang. I like it very much but don't like the price. I have checked out the petrof upright actually but don't really like the tone of the 131 in the showroom and the price is so expensive. However I like my teacher's petrof. [/b]

Early this month, I tried the GE was at RC. But when I compare to the RX and Shigeru, phew.. you know what I mean.
Btw, how much was the Pe 131? The last I checked was selling at RM 28K (USD 7500). Frankly, I prefer the Pe 125. But my gf thought the cabinet was nice, tone and the touch was better (full Renner). Well she's the queen ended up with the 131 \:D
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/24/06 08:15 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
then next time, you gotta record it with your cellphone and put it in the youtube for us to hear too ..... LOL [/b]
:p maybe I should ask the pianist if he knows it is so darn out of tune. And how the hell you play beautiful music from this beast
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/24/06 10:39 PM

He is, in a way, a very determine pianist!!
When i go piano window shopping, i can't play a simple tune if i finds the piano out of tune... lost the mood to play. But with a nicely tune piano, it gives the mood to carry on testing. know what i mean? am i fussy?

This lounge pianist really deserves a promotion and with, the extra pay, he can then employ his own tuner !!! yeah !!! hehehe
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/25/06 10:13 AM

Jay, the petrof 131 that I tested was selling at RM40k! And it was sold already! When did you check the 28k price? They have this Weinbach that selling for 20k but it is a 125 model if i'm not mistaken.
I think the little yamaha baby grand piano in The Curve sounds awful, so does the one in Metrojaya Midvalley.
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/26/06 08:11 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
Jay, the petrof 131 that I tested was selling at RM40k! And it was sold already! When did you check the 28k price? They have this Weinbach that selling for 20k but it is a 125 model if i'm not mistaken.
[/b]
RM 40K that must be the retail price. The last I visited Wagner Piano (Petrof Agent) was sometime mid of this month. I saw the Weinbach too, 118 and 126. According to the dealer it is the same piano as the Petrof but less expensive.

Were you Sg. Wang last weekend? Yamaha had a booth there. I tried the new YUS or YSU. I think is better than the U series. At least to me the touch was better and the upper register sings well.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/26/06 09:37 PM

Digitus: Back from overseas yet - are you a air steward?? \:\)
Is your K8 has the sustenuto features? I tried out the GM-10 at CPt, small size, but large sound - junteh! Sound colourful and sweet. The dynamics response range is pretty good. it' s about $13,999. Sounds better that a Yammy GB1. Ai ya, why didn't you choose the grand instead huh? Price is quite same leh...
At my grade, i don't deserve to play a Steinway. But anyway i did manage to "massage" it... thanks to ms chia letting me try the "rolls roy" \:D It's very rich creamy chocolate taste - my upright is only van houten chocolate....

Sorry jarjar or jar(confusing leh), i for get to ask the price of the GE30, GM10 good enough leow - no duplex nebermind.
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/27/06 04:45 AM

Jay, how could the retail price and the actual price so much difference? That's price given by Wagner when I was there in August. Oh, can I bring you along on my next piano purchase? Hehe. Nope, I didn't go to the Yamaha booth there. Not really interested in a yamaha. They might sounds good when new but the sounds gets really bright when it aged.
Snoopycar, the GE10 was selling at RM38k over here. Just a few K more expensive than in SG so I guess it is quite ok la. But is it the discounted price? I haven't played the GE10 b4, they don't have any in their showroom.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/27/06 01:02 PM

snoopycar, yes just back a few hours ago. No, I'm not an air steward, but I do use Singapore Airlines like a very expensive bus service. Will probably be popping over to Germany on Wednesday night, then China next Tuesday.

It turns out that the K-8 imported by Robert Piano does not have the sostenuto pedal. It is fitted with a practice pedal instead. I was at first somewhat unhappy with it, but having the practice pedal in Singapore makes sense. In any case the sostenuto pedal is not used often that all.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/27/06 05:41 PM

no sostenuto pedal on K8?

How can it be not there when the specs in brochures and all international websites state it so clearly?

in your case, you don't need it so often but you STILL NEED IT!

it this one of the cost cutting measure disguised as oooh, s'pore market doesn't need sustenuto instead, want practice pedal instead. otherwise, may as well buy K6 and save thousands.

I would get a full refund if i were you.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/27/06 06:34 PM

Hi guys,

hiak hiak haik.... you have to ask the right question. I was standing(later the stool comes by hinting i needed a seat) and testing the K8, pressing the middle pedal, aaaa?? how come no effect and can slide to the side??

Then i enqire about the sustenuto. Teacher says, "Have" ~$600 more... some ppl don't need so, "why-pay-more". And it also comes with the silencer felt activate by a level, i think below the left keyboard. You know, modern silencer are activated by bicycle cable type design, can mount the level anywhere.. Ah ha.....

Nebermind lah, buy means buy leow lah ;\) . Treat the sustenuto as a "cruise control" on a Honda Civic - don't have also can. don't tuwee, ok? Your "iVtec" (mill3) is the main attraction !!!
Got duplex, got aggraffe, got sound port. Not like my "lau uncle" K8(secret), Simitomo(what also don't have) - but got a good sound board.

cheers..

"Lau Uncle" looks young out side, young at heart - very fit. Must have gone through cosmetic surgery
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/27/06 08:31 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
Jay, how could the retail price and the actual price so much difference? That's price given by Wagner when I was there in August. Oh, can I bring you along on my next piano purchase? Hehe. Nope, I didn't go to the Yamaha booth there. Not really interested in a yamaha. They might sounds good when new but the sounds gets really bright when it aged.
Snoopycar, the GE10 was selling at RM38k over here. Just a few K more expensive than in SG so I guess it is quite ok la. But is it the discounted price? I haven't played the GE10 b4, they don't have any in their showroom. [/b]
My guess is no piano company will sell at retail price. Usually you get a discount between 15-20% (also depends to brand). And when it comes to year end, you even get a better price. I guess is normal… look at the car dealers.
The only piano that sells with no discount is the Steinway dealer in KL. I went to inquire a Steinway B and it was selling at USD 100K nett.
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/27/06 09:09 PM

I just saw 2 K-8s over the weekend at Parkway Parade sostenuto pedal, side by side with a K-8 without the sostenuto. According to the salesguy, the price difference is about S$500. I preferred the tone of the unit without the sostenuto. For most of us, I think the practice pedal is more useful
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/27/06 10:57 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Wzkit:
I just saw 2 K-8s over the weekend at Parkway Parade sostenuto pedal, side by side with a K-8 without the sostenuto. According to the salesguy, the price difference is about S$500. I preferred the tone of the unit without the sostenuto. For most of us, I think the practice pedal is more useful [/b]
I agree. That's why I didn't make a fuss when I found out that the piano came with the practice pedal instead of sostenuto.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/27/06 11:04 PM

That's what i thought at first. But the interesting point is we can have both, Sustenuto and practice "level" (felt gantry).

Wzkit, how's your piano sound in the room? If too boomy or reflective, you can try to add a mattress(Dolby noise reduction) behind the piano like me.... \:\)

Steinway B .. USD 100,000 ... huh....(jaw dropped, cross eye) wonderful price indeed. is there a diamond hidden inside the soundboard? hehehe
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/28/06 09:52 AM

I used acoustic treatment for my room from Alphacoustics.com. Not too loud..in fact, I can go much softer than when I had my old upright!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/28/06 10:10 AM

Wow that's amazing. I'm still worried at times when i'll get bamboo knocking from the floor below....

Digitus, how's the "running in"? guess you'll be taking it easy....
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/28/06 11:59 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Wow that's amazing. I'm still worried at times when i'll get bamboo knocking from the floor below....

Digitus, how's the "running in"? guess you'll be taking it easy.... [/b]
I had about 1 hour last night, and about 5 hours today! Unfortunately the "running in" will take time because of my travel load. My next trip is to Frankfurt for tonight (if I can get a seat), to attend a meeting on Friday. Back on Saturday, then off to Beijing on Monday. Sigh.

Already the piano needs work. A few strings are buzzing slightly, and a couple of keys are sticking a little. I'll call the tech in for week after next when I'm back from Beijing. :p
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/28/06 07:20 PM

phew-u-weee, super globe trotter!! i'm sure you know all the aircrew by name.. "oh it's you again, mr Digitus. Welcome onboard SQ888 \:\) "

Buzzing sound, sure it's not the "hamberger flouresent" light at the ceiling vibrating in unison? oh sticky key... humidity change - minute wood expansion thingy, i assume it's normal - stuck key is another thing. surely the technician can fix it, just bear with it for a while.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/28/06 10:24 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
phew-u-weee, super globe trotter!! i'm sure you know all the aircrew by name.. "oh it's you again, mr Digitus. Welcome onboard SQ888 \:\) "

Buzzing sound, sure it's not the "hamberger flouresent" light at the ceiling vibrating in unison? oh sticky key... humidity change - minute wood expansion thingy, i assume it's normal - stuck key is another thing. surely the technician can fix it, just bear with it for a while. [/b]
No its not sympathetic vibrations from something else :p . The sticky (not stuck) keys are only slightly sticky - I feel it mostly when I am playing pianissimo.

And yes, some aircrew actually recognize me. NOT a good sign.
Posted by: cmk

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/29/06 01:26 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Wzkit, how's your piano sound in the room? If too boomy or reflective, you can try to add a mattress(Dolby noise reduction) behind the piano like me.... \:\)
[/b]
His piano sounds very nice in his room. \:D
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/29/06 02:10 AM

Kenneth..you got that right! The bass sounds even deeper now, after the second tuning!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/29/06 03:39 AM

Hi guys,

Can do you elaborate what is deep bass?
What do you do with it? Play melody lines, alternating bass accompaniments...? something like, muddy vs clear, thin vs thurdering?

hmmm, this seem to be a new area of knowledge i'm lacking... teach leh,can? \:\)
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/29/06 07:00 AM

Deep = lots of resonance, richness and fullness. But also clear and growling at the same time. Sort of like warm and clear.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/30/06 06:24 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Hi guys,

Can do you elaborate what is deep bass?
What do you do with it? Play melody lines, alternating bass accompaniments...? something like, muddy vs clear, thin vs thurdering?

hmmm, this seem to be a new area of knowledge i'm lacking... teach leh,can? \:\) [/b]
See the section titled 'Inharmonicity and piano size' in piano acoustics . Larger pianos have longer, lighter and less stiff bass strings. This allows more of the fundamental to sound, and the harmonics are also closer to what they should be. These result in bass notes that sound deeper and cleaner. (Much also depends on the quality of the soundboard and overall scale design of course.)

This is one reason why grands are generally preferred over uprights. However a good tall upright can often be better than a mediocre babygrand.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/30/06 06:03 PM

"However a good tall upright can often be better than a mediocre babygrand."

i agree, and some even better mid length grand.
try older 130cm yamaha with the x backpost and you'll know what "deep bass" is. these x series are quite rare over here and i had a chance to try one u3x before it disappeared from the shop a few days later, SOLD! it sound better that the yus, u5 or k80 that i've tried.
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/30/06 08:58 PM

Mendo,
I used to own a Yamaha WX-5 (131cm), before I purchased my Sauter. While the bass is respectable, and while it is a far better piano than current production U5s or YUS-5s, its bass is still not comparable to even the shorter models by German makes. Therefore, while a good piano, I would still not classify in the "elite" category of uprights that I would choose over a small grand, as the

However, if you were talking about a quality German upright, vs a small grand piano, then the choice may not be so clear. The Sauter uprights for example have a depth and richness of the bass that exceeds that of a Yamaha C1, C2 and possibly even C3. Even the 122 cm models. And I don't just mean loudness, but actual resonance and depth of sound. It really has to be heard to be believed. On the other hand, I generally preferred the action of grand pianos, even the cheaper ones. Yamaha and Kawai grands have one of the most comfortable actions in the business, and some of the better Chinese makes (Hailun comes to mind) are very respectable too. So in such a case, it is all about trade-offs, and deciding which is more important to you.

Btw, for those on a tight budget but wanting a grand, I would strongly recommend looking at the new Chinese grands such as Wilhelm Tell and Hailun. The latter, in particular, has an impressive bass. The only big unknown here is durability.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/06 02:54 AM

Hi guys, i'm back online - after kenna attack by spyware... manage to reinstall my XP. now i use the free cyber defender as countermeasure....

Wow, so much to learn about bass section of a piano.. my old K8 seem to have a deeper bass(more ummuh) that the U1A. .... more flexible or responsive sound board? not sure....

Thanks for all the infos.

Where else sells a ~$8000 good grand?? go lobang, inform me ok? Jeepoon one.
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/06 06:06 AM

Snoopy: better bass usually equals better design, and better materials.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/06 10:25 AM

I'll be bach!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyCAda37NrI

AR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiMlBMzEJ1I
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/07/06 01:15 AM

Hi guys, what's happening ??? so quiet??
Right now, my project is learning the "le coucou".
Very tickling piece. 5 days have passed and still haven't master it..... don't be disappointed at my playing level. \:\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/13/06 03:59 AM

Wow so quiet, everyone here at the red-dot is busy practising for a recite??

Hi guys, i went down to Cristofori bedok the other day for a browsing session. The sales guys were very friendly and let me try their piano range. 1 particular brand really strikes me. It's the Hoffman - design by C becstein and made in Cz. The tone dynamics and tone substance is remarkably good. If you guys are free, just drop down to check-it-out and hear if my findings correlate with yours. The price is 8.9k!! But to me, the price corresponse with the increase playing pleasure you get out of it.

happy playing
Posted by: okman

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/17/06 08:29 AM

Just came back from Robert Piano. Just got a K18E from them at the advertised promotional price ... It is the cheapest Kawai but sound good at their showroom. There goes my year end bonus ....
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/17/06 08:50 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by okman:
Just came back from Robert Piano. Just got a K18E from them at the advertised promotional price ... It is the cheapest Kawai but sound good at their showroom. There goes my year end bonus .... [/b]
Ah, welcome to PW and the ever-growing SG thread! I know what you mean about the bonus. Mine's gone too! At least its for a good cause. ;\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/17/06 06:54 PM

Hello okman, welcome to Sg thread. feel free to discuss anything here ......

Where did you get the K18 from?
Posted by: seebechstein

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/17/06 07:02 PM

artemov, I don't know if the last 9 pages were helpful at all, but best of luck in your endeavor to learn the piano, and even more difficult, to find an appropriate instrument!
Posted by: okman

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/17/06 08:12 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Hello okman, welcome to Sg thread. feel free to discuss anything here ......

Where did you get the K18 from? [/b]
The K18E is made in Japan. Also heard the test play on the Moutrie and Toyama at Robert Piano, sound not as vibrant as Kawai K18E. Since Kawai is cheaper than but comparable to Yamaha and K18 was on promotion, we decide to go for it. Expensive decision but hope the right one.
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/18/06 12:09 AM

Hi all,

Just back from Oz after 2 weeks. Loved the weather there \:\)

Now back to piano searching! Can't wait to spend my bonus!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/18/06 02:50 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by artemov:
Hi all,

Just back from Oz after 2 weeks. Loved the weather there \:\)

Now back to piano searching! Can't wait to spend my bonus! [/b]
Wah !!!
go bluemountain to look-see-look-see..... \:D

Piano shopping happen to be my hobby..
You can cheo me anytime if you need someone to help you choose a good piano.
Posted by: Terrytunes

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/18/06 08:57 AM

Excuse me, I almost feel like I'm intruding, but I've sort of followed the 9 pages of converstation here and haven't noticed anyone initiating a piano gathering! I'm intrigued by so many members from Singapore gathering into one thread. It's wonderful!!

Surely you'll all be planning a get-together sometime soon??!! Or, maybe a piano store would be interested in hosting a gathering. What a great way for all of you to meet one another in person!!

ok, sorry for the interruption....
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/18/06 10:03 AM

hehehe... the idea is good
who's house ???
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/18/06 11:33 AM

TerryTunes, please don't take your post as an intrusion! You (and anyone else) is very welcome. Singaporeans are a friendly lot, but with a sense of humour and a way with the English language that is ummm different. \:D

A get-together is an interesting idea! Hmmm....
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/18/06 11:28 PM

Does anyone know who is the Estonia dealer in Singapore? I saw an advertisement in the newspapers some weeks ago, but forgot to clip it out.
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/19/06 12:24 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:
Does anyone know who is the Estonia dealer in Singapore? I saw an advertisement in the newspapers some weeks ago, but forgot to clip it out. [/b]
I think is Chiu Pianos
Posted by: SPC001

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/19/06 02:56 AM

Hi all, Estonia dealer in Singapore is Emmanuel and sons, the dealer who sells 2nd-hand pianos, located at the shop near Farrer Park MRT station at Kallang. I have gone down to see the Estonia, very nice matt finish design.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/19/06 03:51 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SPC001:
Hi all, Estonia dealer in Singapore is Emmanuel and sons, the dealer who sells 2nd-hand pianos, located at the shop near Farrer Park MRT station at Kallang. I have gone down to see the Estonia, very nice matt finish design. [/b]
Ah, thanks! I'm going to try to pop in. I want to see/hear/touch for myself why it is rated so highly. \:\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/19/06 04:08 AM

Ah ha... for Estonia, you gotta look for Marvin at
http://www.pianoforte-sg.com/ give him a email. The piano sales page has Estonia logo...
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/19/06 05:57 AM

Snoopycar, that's the one! Maybe both E & Sons and Pianoforte sell Estonia....
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/19/06 06:27 PM

Yeah!! Starting to get hook on piano tone? it's like heaven when you hear a lovely tone, right? and when all the notes are play as a chord, it's like savouring fine chocolate in the ear.... hehehe
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/20/06 05:48 AM

Wow, Estonia is available in Sg? Hopefully I could have a look soon. Digitus, do post your Estonia experience soon.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/20/06 05:53 AM

Snoopycar:

To be honest I've never been a pianophile until recently. Even when I had access to a Bosendorfer Imperial grand (in my uni's conservatorium) for a while I didn't really know much about piano mechanics etc. What was obvious to me was that the Bosendorfer was much easier to play than my piano teacher's Steinway D. But it could be that my teacher's Steinway needed work.... It also sounded odd, almost like each note had more fundamental than harmonics.

I think my Kawai K-8 (one month old today!) has got me wanting more. It is a really good piano - great touch and tone. What's interesting is that I am hearing and feeling infinitely more than I did 23 years ago (when I last had a piano at home). So, now that I've got a piano that will keep me happy for now, I'd like to find out more about what else is out there, just in case I get lucky with the lottery and can afford to put out for a GP! \:D
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/20/06 05:55 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
Wow, Estonia is available in Sg? Hopefully I could have a look soon. Digitus, do post your Estonia experience soon. [/b]
Will do. I've revived my fingers enough that I think I can go play on showroom pianos in a more meaningful way. I'll still have to bring my sheetmusic, and whoever is in the store will still have to suffer when I play.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/21/06 11:08 PM

Digitus, can i ask you something. How did your brand new K8 arrive? Strink wrap? any cardboard to protect the piano edge?

i remember last time i sold my china piano, the move did the "show" for me. But my other recent movers didn't!!!!

thanks
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/21/06 11:14 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
Wow, Estonia is available in Sg? Hopefully I could have a look soon. Digitus, do post your Estonia experience soon. [/b]
Will do. I've revived my fingers enough that I think I can go play on showroom pianos in a more meaningful way. I'll still have to bring my sheetmusic, and whoever is in the store will still have to suffer when I play. [/b]
kekeke.... better practice more for the coming piano party ,,,,,,, hiakhiakhiak
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/22/06 01:19 AM

What piano party?!!!!!

Am I invited??!!!! \:\)
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/23/06 03:14 AM

Nothing yet lah...don't panic! heheheh
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/23/06 10:53 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Digitus, can i ask you something. How did your brand new K8 arrive? Strink wrap? any cardboard to protect the piano edge?

i remember last time i sold my china piano, the move did the "show" for me. But my other recent movers didn't!!!!

thanks [/b]
The piano arrived firmly strapped to a wooden pallet that was slightly bigger than the piano's footprint. The finish was protected by a few layers of the plastic sticky wrap. The pallet was used as a sort of skid when the piano was slowly slid down a couple of flights of stairs to my flat.

Of course, the piano was originally shipped to Singapore in a wooden crate. But that was removed when the piano was first put into the showroom and prepped for me to test before delivery.
Posted by: sensuous_2006

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/23/06 12:03 PM

Hi, I would like to know anyone owned a K25? I am now making a decision between K25 and the new K3 (another S$600 more).
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/23/06 12:27 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by sensuous_2006:
Hi, I would like to know anyone owned a K25? I am now making a decision between K25 and the new K3 (another S$600 more). [/b]
Its best if you are able to play both pianos in the same showroom. I seem to recall that Robert Piano's Millenia Walk showroom has both of them. If they aren't in tune then request that they be fixed and then go back another day. That's assuming that you are going to be buying from Robert Piano. \:D

If you have to choose without playing both pianos then the K3 might be a better choice. It (and the other models in the new K-series) has a new scale design, and the new Millenium III action.
Posted by: sensuous_2006

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/23/06 01:27 PM

Thanks, Digitus. Thats' a fast reply, which i never expct it as this is the first time i post in.
Actually I know nothing about piano, it is because i am buying one for my 6 yr old daughter who just start learning one month ago. Besides i have another 2 daughter (3 yr and 3 mth old), that is why i am considering a new piano instead of a used piano. Any advise?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/23/06 05:19 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by sensuous_2006:
Thanks, Digitus. Thats' a fast reply, which i never expct it as this is the first time i post in.
Actually I know nothing about piano, it is because i am buying one for my 6 yr old daughter who just start learning one month ago. Besides i have another 2 daughter (3 yr and 3 mth old), that is why i am considering a new piano instead of a used piano. Any advise? [/b]
Oh, I see. In that case I don't think that you can go wrong with either piano. Perhaps the K3 could still have the edge in terms of action.

And welcome to the forum! \:\)
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/25/06 01:06 AM

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone and their pianos \:\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/25/06 06:35 PM

Greetings and well wishes to all people too ... \:\)
Posted by: Fretless

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 01/25/07 10:19 PM

Hello folks, I'm new to Piano World and the instrument. Thought I would revive this thread since this is probably the most happening SG thread that I could find =D

I'm an adult beginner as well, and I'm currently learning on a Yamaha digital piano. However, I'm interested in getting an upright. Can anyone give me a rough idea how much a used U1 or U3 goes for?

Also any tips on what I should look out for when getting a used piano? Thanks in advance. =)
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 01/26/07 12:24 AM

I think around the range of S$4.5-5K would be reasonable.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 01/26/07 06:37 AM

wow, this thread still going strong!

was away from thread becos too much work pile up and no time to surf in office. so anyone tried anything nice recently?

have the threadstarter bought already? still going through the whole thread which i miss out.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 01/27/07 02:45 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Fretless:
Hello folks, I'm new to Piano World and the instrument. Thought I would revive this thread since this is probably the most happening SG thread that I could find =D

I'm an adult beginner as well, and I'm currently learning on a Yamaha digital piano. However, I'm interested in getting an upright. Can anyone give me a rough idea how much a used U1 or U3 goes for?

Also any tips on what I should look out for when getting a used piano? Thanks in advance. =) [/b]
Fretless, Thanks for up-ing the thread!! \:\)
What model digPiano are you playing now? Some models are quite good - ~CLP120 upwards
My clp-69 is not so good as its keys aren't weighted - more like spring.

used U1 price may range +- of $1000 depending on the year and condition.
Generally:
New Jap, ~$9000
New Indo, ~$6000

as a rough guide..........
Used Jap U1, 10years, superb condition, ~$5000
Used Jap U1, 20years, good condition, ~$4200
Used Jap U1, 30years, moderate condition, ~$2800

For U3, i'm not so sure, but adding $600 to the U1 used might be reasonable.

So... have you visited any piano shop yet? Have any piano "entice" your hearing sense yet... hehehe? Whats your budget? $3000-4500 might be a good beginning.... If you shop around, you'll get a picture of which shop offers the best value-for-money product... know what i mean?
Go for tip-top condition and bargain abit, so that the end result is a piano "song" to play and "song" to own, and "song" to hear(most important).

Go for it!!!
Posted by: Fretless

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 01/27/07 07:38 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Fretless, Thanks for up-ing the thread!! \:\)
What model digPiano are you playing now? Some models are quite good - ~CLP120 upwards
My clp-69 is not so good as its keys aren't weighted - more like spring.

used U1 price may range +- of $1000 depending on the year and condition.
Generally:
New Jap, ~$9000
New Indo, ~$6000

as a rough guide..........
Used Jap U1, 10years, superb condition, ~$5000
Used Jap U1, 20years, good condition, ~$4200
Used Jap U1, 30years, moderate condition, ~$2800

For U3, i'm not so sure, but adding $600 to the U1 used might be reasonable.

So... have you visited any piano shop yet? Have any piano "entice" your hearing sense yet... hehehe? Whats your budget? $3000-4500 might be a good beginning.... If you shop around, you'll get a picture of which shop offers the best value-for-money product... know what i mean?
Go for tip-top condition and bargain abit, so that the end result is a piano "song" to play and "song" to own, and "song" to hear(most important).

Go for it!!! [/b]
Hey hey =D

I'm playing a Yamaha CP33 stage piano. Pretty new, I just bought it 3 weeks ago. But cos of the layout of my study/music room, my speakers are on my side when playing the piano. Quite annoying to have the sound of the instrument coming from one side.

All in all I find the CP33 pretty nice with graded weighted keys, pretty decent grand piano samples, but still doesn't feel like playing a real thing of cos \:D Oh ya, somehow got this lil short buzz that comes out after every note, quite irritating

I just came back from piano window shopping actually. Went to Robert Piano, Yamaha, Renner and Asia Piano. A new U3 at $11K is out of my budget for sure. So was the sweet Kawai K8! I'm trying to stay below $4.5K.

Currently leaning towards Asia Piano, maybe next weekend I'll go down to their warehouse to put my unskilled fingers on some keys

Anyhow, Leonard was recommending I get this 18yo Kawai KS5F over the U3. Does anyone have any opinions on the Kawai? Would be much appreciated! \:D It's going for a fair bit below a U3 pricewise as well.

Oh yeah, so far I kinda like the U3, YUS5, KS5F and K8. I can't stand the bass notes on a short scale piano \:\)
Posted by: shannada

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/04/07 09:57 AM

Hi All

I have been reading this thread with interest.
I too am looking to buy a piano in Singapore. It will be for my daughter who has just started lessons, and also for myself to play casually - I may take lessons later on to continue from where I left off 15 yrs ago. My budget is for S$7000 or less.

So far I have considered 2nd hand Yamaha U1 and UX1 (around 20 to 25 years old with 5 yr warranty), and and a few 2nd hand Kawais - one in particular being the Kawai NS35 (around 20 yrs old with 1 yr warranty). All going for approx $5000. Also considered a brand new U1 and K3.
The Yamahas sound a little too bright for my liking, but the Kawais sound better.

Anyone know where the Kawai NS35 sits in the Kawai range, is it comparable to a K5 or K8 equivalent? I believe it is a Jap import and is a 131cm model.

I have also looked at some pianos at Cristofori. There is a new JC-121 piano there that is apparently made by the Toyo factory in Japan, and goes for approx $5800 with 10yr warranty - so within my budget. Sound wise it sounded comparable to a Yamaha U1. Anyone on this forum tried this paino and what is your opinion on it as compared to the Yamaha U1/UX1 or Kawai K3 equivalents?

Does anyone have an opinion on the second-hand U1/UX1 versus Kawai NS35 vs the Cristofori JC-121 (new)?
Posted by: SPC001

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/04/07 08:53 PM

Shanaada,
You can check out this piano shop at Peace Centre, where they have very good condition 2nd pianos:

http://www.renner.com.sg/usedpiano.html

I have been to few 2nd piano shops in Singapore , this one has one of the best conditioned ones.

To compare Yamaha and Kawai, they are both popular Jap pianos with just different sound characteristics. There have been lots of threads about the differences you can find in this forum. To sum up a bit, Yamaha sounds brighter while Kawai has fuller tone, you need to play to see which sound you prefer, if you are comparing models of about the same cost.

As for new JC-121, if you can get a good quality 2nd hand U1 or NS35, then you should go for the Jap, unless you prefer to own a new piano instead of used. And for the cost of JC-121, you can get a 2nd hand Yamaha U3 which is far better in sound. Most important thing is you must be able to discern the difference, if you can't, then choose the one you prefer. \:\)
Posted by: Fretless

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/05/07 01:00 AM

Hello =D Glad to announce I just bought a piano last saturday \:\) Got myself an old Kawai US6LE from Asia Piano.

Delivery on wednesday, will post pics when I get it.

Anyway I recommend popping down to Asia Piano to take a look if you are considering used pianos. They're located a Singapore Shopping Center on the 3rd floor.
Posted by: shannada

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/05/07 01:28 AM

SPC001 & Fretless, thanks for the advice. I was leaning towards the 2nd hand models rather than the new Yamaha U1, Kawai K3 and Cristofori JC-122. Any savings would be passed on towards lessons \:\)

I prefer a more mellow tone piano.
The NS-35 caught my eye, and sounded OK tone-wise and not as bright as the Yamaha. Its condition was reasonably good.
There is not a lot of info available on the NS-35, so I don't know how this compares to say the KS5F or its modern-day equivalents , eg K5 (I think)?

Anyone know whether the NS-35 is comparable to the NS5F???

But nonetheless I still found the Kawai to be brighter than some of the European pianos I tried, eg W.Hoffman WH-120 and the Seiler and Steinway - just kicking tyres on the S&S.

The W.Hoffman (S$8999) in Cristofori looked like a possible choice but was just outside my initial budget. Also it is a 120cm model but I was hoping to get a full-sized upright, which is why I am more keen on the Kawais (new or used) rather than the W.Hoffman or Yamaha.

I saw the 2nd hand Yamahas at Asia Piano and the Kawai at Robert Piano. I gather from reading this thread that these 2 of the more trusted dealers in Singapore market?
I will look up Renner used pianos as well, thanks for the suggestions.
Posted by: SPC001

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/05/07 03:00 AM

Kawai NS-35 is of 131cm height. It should be compared against the new model K-6 which is about the same height. K-5 is only of 125cm. NS-35 is an old model while K-6 is newer model with probably some improvement in areas. If possible, given the same price of both model, choose the tallest available model because the string is longer, thereby giving better sound. Also taller pianos tend to have better keyboard action due to the construction.

KS-5F is also a 131cm tall. Diff between NS-35 may be of different generation. You can try out to see which sounds or plays better.

For more mellow tone sound in Jap pianos, Kawai is the choice.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/05/07 11:53 AM

shannada:

First of all welcome to PW!

Where did you see the NS-35? I had a look at one at Pianoman in Bukit Timah Plaza last November. I nearly bought it! If its the same piano then you need to spend a bit of money to get a good piano tech to bring it up to scratch. Although it is in generally good condition, it needs some work. The action needs to be regulated. The hammers also need voicing down - they've become deeply grooved and really hard.
Posted by: shannada

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/06/07 12:11 PM

Digitus, thanks.
I tried out the NS-35 at Robert Piano. From my quick inspection of the internals, this one seemed in better condition than the one you saw at Pianoman, but I am no expert. I haven't been to Pianoman yet, but if they have some good condition 2nd hands I might pay them a visit this weekend. I was planning to drop by Asia Piano to have a look at a couple Kawai KS5F's they have in stock.

So you nearly bought the NS-35. What did you like about it, and do you know how the NS-35 compares to the KS5F or its current day equivalent the K8?
Also what is your opinion on how the NS-35 compares to the Yamaha U1/U3?

If I recall correctly, you ended up buying Kawai K3, right? How's that piano settling in and are you happy with the tone?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/06/07 01:46 PM

shannada: No harm dropping into Pianoman to have a look.

The NS35 I saw was in pretty good shape. The tone was OK, and sustain good. And it fitted my budget. It was too loud and bright, primarily because of the hard hammers. I generally prefer the Kawai tone to Yamaha's. It's a personal preference.

In the end I increased my budget 2.5x and got a K8 instead. :p I simply didn't have the time to go scouring the piano shops in Singapore for a good second-hand instrument.
Posted by: Fretless

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/07/07 03:16 AM

My new (17yo) Kawai US6LE arrived this morning =D Spent the good half of the morning polishing it up and playing watever my unskilled hands were capable of \:D

As promised, here are some pics... sorry for being a bandwidth hog!













Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/07/07 03:21 AM

Wow! It looks to be in great shape! Which shop did you get it from?
Posted by: Fretless

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/07/07 03:57 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:
Wow! It looks to be in great shape! Which shop did you get it from? [/b]
:D got it from asia piano. Everything is in near mint condition except the pedals having "pimples" and light grooving on the hammers.

Got a pretty good deal on it, so no complains =D
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/07/07 05:33 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Fretless:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:
Wow! It looks to be in great shape! Which shop did you get it from? [/b]
:D got it from asia piano. Everything is in near mint condition except the pedals having "pimples" and light grooving on the hammers.

Got a pretty good deal on it, so no complains =D [/b]
Yes, those hammers are in remarkably good shape for a piano of that age. Either they've been spruced up, or the previous owner used the piano lightly and with the practice pedal engaged a lot of the time! \:\)
Posted by: shannada

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/07/07 10:41 AM

Fretless,

Posted by: SPC001

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/07/07 10:19 PM

It is quite a good buy to get 2nd hand piano in that kind of condition with 1/2 of the price of new piano. Shannada, I am sure with time, you will find yourself one good one too!
Posted by: iriscyx

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/09/07 01:43 AM

Fretless,

May I know how much is your kawai piano, it looks so new and beautiful!
Posted by: Fretless

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/09/07 04:46 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by iriscyx:
Fretless,

May I know how much is your kawai piano, it looks so new and beautiful! [/b]
PM Sent \:D
Posted by: mokzartz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/18/07 01:32 AM

Hi all,
I am new to the Pianoworld forum and this is my first post. I am currently based in Shanghai and bought a US5X about a year ago.

As a reference, my piano is 8 years old and cost S$4500 (22,500 rmb). US6LE is taller than my US5X, so it could cost more.
Posted by: stardust

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/18/07 05:32 PM

I just started to learn a month ago...switched from a key board to a used Baldwin. Like it very much...am making progress tho slow and happy :-)
Posted by: Fretless

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/22/07 02:26 AM

If anyone is interested, there's a Kawai US60 on Ebay Singapore at the moment. \:D

http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/Kawai-132cm-Uprig...1QQcmdZViewItem

No it's not mine :p
Posted by: shannada

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/26/07 08:07 AM

I have narrowed down my shortlist to 3 pianos. New Kawai K8, new Yamaha U5 (or maybe YUS5), and a used Yamaha DC1 (12 yrs old). All are going for approx $11,000 to $12,000.

Any opinions on which would be the better piano at this price point would be appreciated.

Please refer to this thread for a more detailed discussion:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/17282.html
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 02/27/07 02:32 AM

shannada: I chose the K8 over the YUS5.
Posted by: shannada

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/01/07 12:15 PM

Digitus, thanks for your input.
What did you like about the K8 versus the YUS5?
At this stage I am strongly considering the used C1.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/02/07 01:58 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by shannada:
Digitus, thanks for your input.
What did you like about the K8 versus the YUS5?
At this stage I am strongly considering the used C1. [/b]
The Kawai tone is more appealing to me. I find it ummm warmer and rounder.
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/06/07 12:48 AM

Hi folks!
I am new to the board. Was searching for piano information when I chanced upon this forum. Really delighted to read posts fm Singapore pals!

I am starting my child (6 yrs old) on piano this week. I have viewed 2nd hands and new pianos. Could I have some of your opinions on the following:

1. 3rd hand Yamaha HQ300 (14yr old disklavier) @$2.5k, no warranty, self removal.
2. 2nd hand Yamaha U1 (23 yr old S$2.5k), 1 yr warranty, 1 tuning, foc delivery.
3. New Atlas Piano A102 @S$3200.
4. New HAILUN Piano (not decided on model yet) @2.5k - S$3.9k.
5. New Wendl & Lung Piano @S$4.2k & above.

Any advice would be helpful....
BTW, anyone can advise on the estimate removal cost? ANy reasonable/good movers to recommend?

Many thanks!
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/06/07 01:36 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by silkygals:
Hi folks!
I am new to the board. Was searching for piano information when I chanced upon this forum. Really delighted to read posts fm Singapore pals!

I am starting my child (6 yrs old) on piano this week. I have viewed 2nd hands and new pianos. Could I have some of your opinions on the following:

1. 3rd hand Yamaha HQ300 (14yr old disklavier) @$2.5k, no warranty, self removal.
2. 2nd hand Yamaha U1 (23 yr old S$2.5k), 1 yr warranty, 1 tuning, foc delivery.
3. New Atlas Piano A102 @S$3200.
4. New HAILUN Piano (not decided on model yet) @2.5k - S$3.9k.
5. New Wendl & Lung Piano @S$4.2k & above.

Any advice would be helpful....
BTW, anyone can advise on the estimate removal cost? ANy reasonable/good movers to recommend?

Many thanks! [/b]
Hi silkygals, welcome to PW!

Whatever you do don't go with option 1. If you really want to, then engage the services of a good piano technician to inspect the piano and give you an estimate of how much it will cost you to (1) transport the piano; and (b) do the necessary refurbishment work on the instrument.

Since your child is 6 years old and just starting on the piano, you might want to keep in mind the possibility that he/she will lose interest after a while. So you have to balance that possibility against the cost of the piano.

The selection of option 2 depends on how well the instrument has been refurbished. For this you will need to seek the opinion of a good piano tech or a knowledgeable piano owner, unless the dealer is well-known for doing good work.

I can't advise on the remaining three options because I've not played on any of those pianos. However, if I had to pick one I'd go with Hailun, with Wendl & Lung next.
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/06/07 04:29 AM

Thank you Digitus.
My hubby says Hailun exam model at S$3.8k is reasonable to last us for next 10 years (with warranty, delivery, option to trade-in), compare to the older Yamaha HQ300 (131 ht) as it is used daily for min. 2 hrs practice for the last 3 years (I know the current owner).

I just returned Yamaha showroom and a 2nd hand dealer. A very nice 20yr old Yamaha U3 at S$4.5k. WOW. A new U1 assembled in Indonesia is only $6.2k. Piano shopping is really interesting.
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/06/07 04:32 AM

PS: Digitus, is there a gd reason on recommending HAILUN over W&L?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/06/07 07:54 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by silkygals:
Thank you Digitus.
My hubby says Hailun exam model at S$3.8k is reasonable to last us for next 10 years (with warranty, delivery, option to trade-in), compare to the older Yamaha HQ300 (131 ht) as it is used daily for min. 2 hrs practice for the last 3 years (I know the current owner).

I just returned Yamaha showroom and a 2nd hand dealer. A very nice 20yr old Yamaha U3 at S$4.5k. WOW. A new U1 assembled in Indonesia is only $6.2k. Piano shopping is really interesting. [/b]
You are welcome. Pianos are very subjective things. This is a situation in which the phrase "one man's meat is another man's poison" applies all the time!

The Hailun may or may not last 10 years. It's not because it's a bad piano, but rather that if your child gets sufficiently advanced, his/her ears and fingers can tell the difference between an adequate piano and one that is a joy to play on.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/06/07 08:06 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by silkygals:
PS: Digitus, is there a gd reason on recommending HAILUN over W&L? [/b]
Hailun is a well-known piano manufacturer making instruments under their own label, and doing contract manufacturing for some European brands. They are known to have spent a lot of money on building state-of-the-art manufacturing facilities in Shanghai.

I just remembered that Wendl & Lung are made by Hailun. So you can't go wrong with either option. Various people think that they are great value for money.
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/06/07 09:54 AM

I guess I should view some kawai models before deciding... though Hailun and W&L seems more affordable. German models are out of reach.
Posted by: shannada

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/06/07 12:48 PM

I have decided to make an offer on the Yamaha C1 Disklavier. Pretty much doubled my original budget from when I started off with my piano search, which orginally focused on Kawai verticals.

Thanks to all who have provided advice. Much appreciated.

I'm taking delivery today. The children are excited, and I can't wait to try the piano myself.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/06/07 12:56 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by shannada:
I have decided to make an offer on the Yamaha C1 Disklavier. Pretty much doubled my original budget from when I started off with my piano search, which orginally focused on Kawai verticals.

Thanks to all who have provided advice. Much appreciated.

I'm taking delivery today. The children are excited, and I can't wait to try the piano myself. [/b]
Congratulations. I'm sure that you and your kids will have many hours of enjoyment on it!
Posted by: shannada

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/06/07 01:00 PM

Silkygals

If you are considering brand-new pianos, you could try visiting the Cristofori showroom in Funan Mall to see some other alternatives. They have several pianos there that fall within the upper-end of your budget. These are sourced from a variety of countries including Japan, Korea, China, and Western Europe (mostly Germany) - although the European painos are around S$10k plus. You can also try out some Eastern European-made pianos (W.Hoffmann) for comparison. The W.Hoffmann is the most reasonably priced European piano at S$8900 before negotiation/discounts.

As for your original list of pianos, I have not tried the Wendl & Lung or Hailun, but have tried several Yamaha's including the U1.

If you are keen on Japanese-made pianos, may I suggest you also look at some Kawais (either new or used), which are comparable to the Yamaha in terms of tonal qualities and build quality.

On the other hand if you are keen on brand-new Chinese-made pianos, Perzina makes one of the better-sounding pianos on the market today IMO. Worth a try, although when I visited the dealer's showroom, some of the pianos were not tuned.
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/07/07 01:08 AM

Hello Shannada.

Tonight my gal will start her 1st piano lesson. I will consult the teacher as well and will also be popping by christofori and asia piano by this week.

It is a very exciting experience. I feel like learning to play myself. Ha ha.
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/07/07 10:19 AM

Hi Shannada,
I am back fm the class. Oh Boy, one of the sch's staff has terrible attitude. Sighhh..
We are still stuck at the decision of a used Yamaha Disklavier or New Hailun. Just wonder if your Yamaha C1 comes with both CD & FD player or just a FD player/recorder? Is it a direct Japan model , does it need a transformer to work the player/recorder? The reason I'm asking is that the Yamaha HQ300 I am considering is a jpn model which need a transformer to work the player.
Any advice is much appreciated.
PS: does anyone know is this HQ300 equalivent to a U3?
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/07/07 10:28 AM

Sorry folks, another question. Is it consider heavy usage if the used piano is played by 2-3 persons for 2-3 hours daily for last 3 years.
Posted by: shannada

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/07/07 12:06 PM

Silkygals
Sorry to hear about the music school staff. Where is your daughter doing her music lessons?

My two eldest daughters have also just started lessons a few weeks ago. So far so good, and the teachers seems pretty good.

My Yamaha DC1 is a 1995 model which comes with the FD player/recorder (probably a Mark II Disklavier). This model has no CD as this feature was introduced with the Mark III version of Disklavier, but the CD component can be added-on to any Disklavier system (new or old) according to Yamaha. This add-on is known as the DCD1.

My DC1 was made for this region, not a Japanese grey-import. So no transformer needed, and also all the labels on the Disklavier unit are in English. If you are buying a grey import from Japan, you will need a transformer as Japan uses a mains voltage of 100V, while Singapore and the rest of the Commonwealth countries, use a mains voltage of 240V.

I am not familiar with the HQ300. This model did not come up in any of my research about Yamaha pianos. It's probably a model made only for the domestic Japanese market. What height is this HQ300? If you know the height you may be able to compare it to the U3, which is a 52" vertical.

A piano that has been played for 2 to 3 hours daily would probably be classed as "medium" usage, unless the pianist was heavy-handed and banged away.

If you are looking for Used pianos, I recommend you give Asia Piano a try. They are located in Singapore Shopping Centre. From my experience, the owner (Leonard) came across as a knowledgeable and trustworthy guy. No hard-sell or BS, plus he is a piano technician so knows pianos inside-and-out. They have a good range of used Yamahas and Kawais. While you are there you could also have a look at some new Perzinas. The dealer is located upstairs in the same building. Perzina is Chinese-built using European parts & components. Previously a German-based company, it was bought out and the new owners have now relocated all its manufacturing to China to reduce costs. You might find the Perzina sound to your liking.
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/07/07 09:44 PM

Shannada,

The School? Chxxxxri Music. Teacher is fine. But definitely not the manning staff. She seems to hv an attitude fm Day 1 I met her.

HQ300 is a Jp model, 52" ht so I presume a U3. All instructions are in Japanese. Transformer is included. But no chair. So I hv to top up transport, chair, tuning & perhaps an additional heater. Another $300. It will be a good buy if we can upgrade to CD system, as you mentioned. I saw the same piano at Yamaha Plaza Sing. It costs nearly S$20k for a new one.

Will pop by 2 more shops to check Kawai later. I tik it will be very unfair if I dont view. Ha ha.

Thanks for your advices!
Posted by: jonray

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/07/07 09:54 PM

I am new to this thread, but I find this interesting. Regarding the HQ300, it is in the same class as the U3 in term of size. However, I am also worried about a used disklavier version because it is usually played for long period electronically. 3 hours for 3 years would work out to 1000 hours of play. The best assessment is to look at the felt and the grooves. Physically it should still be in prestine condition since it is less than 10 years. As to the transformer, this is the smallest issue to be concerned with. A transformer can be fix easily for less than $50. Since it is already used by the previous owner, the transformer should already be there.
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/07/07 10:18 PM

Hello Jonray!

The piano was manf in 1993. The current owner bought it fm a 2nd hand shop in Singapore from 2005. They dont use the player. The piano is strictly for their twins practice, probably at grade 5 level. I viewed the piano 3 days ago. Sound ok. The player works but we didnt try the recording. The internal looks clean. I am a piano idiot, so it seems like a good buy compared to the other aged 20+ U1 at other shops ($2.5k-4.5k).

Any comments? I have to reply my interest to purchase in 4 hours.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/07/07 10:31 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by silkygals:
Hello Jonray!

The piano was manf in 1993. The current owner bought it fm a 2nd hand shop in Singapore from 2005. They dont use the player. The piano is strictly for their twins practice, probably at grade 5 level. I viewed the piano 3 days ago. Sound ok. The player works but we didnt try the recording. The internal looks clean. I am a piano idiot, so it seems like a good buy compared to the other aged 20+ U1 at other shops ($2.5k-4.5k).

Any comments? I have to reply my interest to purchase in 4 hours. [/b]
If you aren't piano-savvy and can't bring someone who is (like a friend or piano tech) with you to inspect the instrument then you are taking a risk. If you really like it or feel that you want to tke a chance, then get it, but I strongly advise you to pay a good piano tech to check it out once its been delivered to your home.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/07/07 11:11 PM

Hi silkygals,

If you need someone to help you view and confirm the condition is worth buying, you can contact me at 90228720kc. I don't mind volenteering to help you but, I could drop by after 6pm weekdays. Weekend, no problem.
I can help you to check and determine the hammer wear grove, the action leather, frictions, any gross freeplay, harsh or mellow or acceptable tone. Also, the strings and tuning pins can be check for any serious rust. If you want, we can move the piano out abit to check the sound board...etc .It'll probably help you to decide.

If not, just go by your instinct... \:\)
But Digitus advise is good, better bring along someone mechanical minded along to check.

cheers
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/07/07 11:15 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Hi silkygals,

If you need someone to help you view and confirm the condition is worth buying, you can contact me at 90228720kc. I don't mind volenteering to help you but, I could drop by after 6pm weekdays. Weekend, no problem.
I can help you to check and determine the hammer wear grove, the action leather, frictions, any gross freeplay, harsh or mellow or acceptable tone. Also, the strings and tuning pins can be check for any serious rust. If you want, we can move the piano out abit to check the sound board...etc .It'll probably help you to decide.

If not, just go by your instinct... \:\)
But Digitus advise is good, better bring along someone mechanical minded along to check.

cheers [/b]
Ah! I was hoping someone would volunteer. Thanks snoopycar \:\) I'm not in Singapore for this and the next week.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/07/07 11:46 PM

yo yo yo welcome \:\)
Posted by: jonray

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/08/07 12:50 AM

Most of the Yamaha that I have seen in shop are mostly overpriced, so consider what you are benchmarking with. Without disclosing the price, really, at the end of the day is if the purchase is value for your money.

I use the following 10 pointers to assess the piano which I think is helpful.

1. First, play every note on the piano. Are there any buzzes, notes that don't stop when the key is let go, keys that don't work, etc?

2. Test all pedals to see if they work. A great way to look at pedal function is to make sure the hammers and dampers are in view when testing pedals (do dampers raise, action shift, etc.)

3. Look at the tuning pins and the pins on the other end of the strings. Are any bent, rusted, strings look like they were wrapped wrong, etc. (Testing the pins for proper tightness is an essential test, but usually can only be done by a tech due to experience and equipment issues.)

4. Look at the bridge (where the strings touch the soundboard). Are there any irregularities? Also look at the strings. Are any a different sheen than the others, tarnished or rusted?

5. Look at the front and back of the soundboard for cracks and also inspect the plate for cracks.

6. Look at the hammers and shanks, are any hammers stained, look hugely different? Are they worn to the nub? Are the shanks in good shape?

7. Test notes for evenness of touch and try to ascertain whether the keys are level.

8. Test breaks (where the notes go from one string to two, from two to three, where structure interrupts the strings). Is the tone even across the break?

9. Look at the finish to see if there are scratches, dings, or dents.

10. Finally make sure to look at every area you can inside the piano to make sure there are no "souvenirs" from techs, pets, or Christmas parties.

Can't think of anything else.
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/08/07 04:28 AM

Hi Hi!

Thank you Gentlemen (& ladies)! Really appreciate all your advices. Esp to Snoopycar, for your generousity.

I went down to Asia Piano earlier, metup with Leonard. His kawais are really nice. Excellent service & advices.

We decided to take a risk on our friend's Disklavier HQ300, though the player cant be upgraded. My friend is really fussy. So I tik she might have taken good care of the piano. Will definitely book Leonard for a throughout check once delivered.

PS: Snoopycar, could you care to come over for tea, and to test the piano after servicing? I can make a copy of your concert.

(Shannada, I saw a C1 Disklavier @Asia Piano. A real nice beauty. Good choice!)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/08/07 05:13 AM

No, Ribina will do. But i can only play Back Minute in Gmajor.... hehehe
Posted by: jonray

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/08/07 10:09 PM

Sorry, I did not notice the price earlier. But for a 14 year old HQ300 at $2500 and in good condition, I think it's great buy. Enjoy your new toy.
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/08/07 10:39 PM

Hey Snoopycar, I cant play isntruments.... How bad can you be? *wink*
Posted by: jonray

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/09/07 01:26 AM

I have gotten a used piano in prestine condition recently. I have a few questions below;

1. Does anyone knows what polish is recommended to maintain the piano shine and where to buy it.

2. Anyone knows where to get (locally) the wrench hammer used for tuning the piano?
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/09/07 02:32 AM

Jonray,

I too think it is too good a deal to miss out. I am expecting delivering 2 weeks later. Having some problem with the release date. Owner insists her kids must play till end march. Her quote " a day short of practice, it take 3 days to recover".

Is it that bad? Someone enlighten me pls! I find it hard to swallow.
Posted by: jonray

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/09/07 05:16 AM

silkygal,
Since it is already a done deal, there is no need to be upset about delivery. End of the month delivery is looks reasonable for private transaction. It just show that the piano is still valued to be used by the owner and not an item to be disposed off quickly. I guess you may want to check prior to carting away the piano that the condition has not changed. The only fear is that the owner renege on the deal....hopefully not.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/09/07 05:44 AM

Sounds like buying and selling cars.... hehehe
Have you paid the deposit?

Yes, I once went overseas holiday last year for 10 days, after that i forgot many songs...
now i practise whenever i have the chance.
Oops, i even spell bach wrongly...

Jonray:
Can get the tuning level from cristofori bedok, or order from overseas... i can loan you mine for $5per hour... \:\) ha! I guess you're thinking about self-tuning right? It's quite fun leh.

Polishing to high gloss?? you'll need a buffering machine - if your finishing is polyseter.

cheers
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/09/07 07:12 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jonray:
I have gotten a used piano in prestine condition recently. I have a few questions below;

1. Does anyone knows what polish is recommended to maintain the piano shine and where to buy it.

2. Anyone knows where to get (locally) the wrench hammer used for tuning the piano? [/b]
Are you thinking of tuning the piano yourself? If yes then I advise you to think again. I investigated this in depth a couple of months ago, and I can tell you it is NOT for the faint of heart. And you could ruin the piano. A good piano tech may make it look easy, but it isn't. In any case, you need more than just the wrench.
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/09/07 10:44 AM

I'm also new to this forum and I have been following this 12-page thread on the sidelines before deciding to join in the fun.

It so happens I'm also shopping around for a piano to replace my Challen and the feedback and experiences of those who contributed to this thread were extremely useful. So far, I've been to Asia Piano and Century Piano a few days back and today, I've been to Roberts and Music Clef.

I started out with the aim of getting a used Yamaha U3 after seeing the newspaper ads but must say I fell in love with the Kawais in Roberts. Even the K3 sounded really superb and I really envy the guy here who bought the K8.

Still couldn't decide between the K3, K5 or K6 but the K6 is really going to blow my budget. Are used Kawais any good? The guy in Roberts advised me to get new ones.
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/09/07 11:16 AM

We agreed on a date finally, case settled. I trust her to value the piano and our friendship. Now just wait patiently.

No payment made yet. Nothing much to lose for both of us. : )

Jonray - seriouly I'd leave the technical part to a trusted technican.
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/09/07 11:26 AM

Hi Clam... I am a newbie here as well.
New vs old... Hmmh..

The sales guys tell me to go for new. The 2nd shops say 2nd hands (depend on age / made) are better. So it's very subjective as Digitus commented. For me, I am not so tuned. So I go with my pocket.

If u r still keen on U3, I saw 1 at Renner Piano couple days ago. It may still be available.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/09/07 11:45 AM

JonRay, don,t worry. If you like to tinkle with your piano or any mechanical things, any take up challenges, it could be fun. But of course, i think you'd know, tuning piano takes 1000% effort. If you know what you're doing, the piano won't necessary be ruin. Take courage. But be prepare for "down time" while tuning it. You can write to me. Nothing is too difficult. Just like playing the piano. It depend how one sets the target, moderate or very high. \:\)

Welcome to the forum Clan!!
Most used Japanese pianos are safe. Somehow, i do feels Kawais sounds than yamahahaha \:\) but pls check the engine under the bonnet. check for leaky oil..... hehehe
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/09/07 09:15 PM

Thanks snoopycar and silkygals for the warm welcome. My very first piano 13 years ago was a Yamaha and I was new to piano then but even at that time, I find that the Yamaha was too bright.

Fast forward to today and I realized that this is a fact and experience shared by many as well. I know I can never afford a German or European, and have been advised to stay clear of China/Korean brands, so Yamaha is the only other brand I know.

Thanks for the heads-up silkygals. Will drop by at Renner next week to see what they have.

My Challen has 3-4 quite deep scratches on the piano cover becoz my mum used the vacuum cleaner on it when she spotted dust while vacuuming the floor! Is there a way to get rid of them by polishing or other chemicals?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/10/07 04:15 AM

Nevermind about those vacuum hose attachments scratch.. as long as the tone and sound is good, close one eye loh.... \:\)
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/10/07 05:02 AM

I can close one eye or even both eyes but the buyer whom I want to sell to will knock down my price because of this... \:\( Then my dream of getting the Kawai K6 will be just that - a dream...sigh!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/10/07 05:27 AM

give a discount of $100 lor.

Is your piano black. i think black is easier to repair. send a picture to me...
Posted by: jonray

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/10/07 10:17 AM

Digitus,
Yes, I am thinking of tuning it myself. Then I can do it at will. I agree, it's not for the faint hearted. But, I am not. Indeed, I am challenged to take it on. I think too many times, fear has stop me from taking the first step. But once I have read enough, knowledge gives me confidence. Even if I failed, I will learn the experience and there is immense value to it.

snoopycar,
Thanks for your encouragement. I will tap on you when I run into problem. First problem, where can I get the tuning hammer locally? Where did you get yours?
Posted by: jonray

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/10/07 10:23 AM

Thanks Snnopycar.
Miss your earlier reply...
So I can get the tuning lever from Cristofori Bedok.

Will drop my over the weekend.
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/13/07 04:05 AM

For those still interested in looking for piano (Yamaha/Kawai), this is what I've got so far in terms of pricing:

Yamaha U3 (new): $11,450
Yamaha GB1 (new baby grand): $13,500
Yamaha U3 (used, 20 years): $5,500 - $6,000
Kawai K70 (used, 6 yrs): $6,300
Kawai NS-35 (used, 20 yrs): $5,100
Kawai K3 (new): $7,500
Kawai K5 (new): $9,500
Kawai K6 (new): $11,500
Kawai K8 (new): $12,800

snoopycar, can only post pics after I get my digital camera back.
Posted by: ftp

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/13/07 06:41 AM

Sorry for the off topic question...can you buy a Suzuki piano in Singapore?
Posted by: shannada

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/13/07 08:04 AM

Yes, Suzuki pianos are sold in Singapore. I have seen them in a dealer.
I didn't find the Suzuki piano to be particularly noteworthy. What is the background to this question?
Posted by: shannada

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/13/07 08:25 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by silkygals:
Hi Hi!

Thank you Gentlemen (& ladies)! Really appreciate all your advices. Esp to Snoopycar, for your generousity.

I went down to Asia Piano earlier, metup with Leonard. His kawais are really nice. Excellent service & advices.

We decided to take a risk on our friend's Disklavier HQ300, though the player cant be upgraded. My friend is really fussy. So I tik she might have taken good care of the piano. Will definitely book Leonard for a throughout check once delivered.

(Shannada, I saw a C1 Disklavier @Asia Piano. A real nice beauty. Good choice!) [/b]
Silkygals, thanks for your note. Sorry for the late response, I am on a visit to my hometown/country and did not check this forum until today. I heard from Leonard@Asia Piano just before I left that you had dropped by his store last week. Apparently, he advised you to take up the offer on the 12yr-old HQ300 because it was a bargain at that price. From what I gather from your various posts, it seems to be in good condition and certainly in demand as it is still being used for lessons by the present (soon-to-be previous) owner's children. I would still recommend you have it tuned and serviced by a technician after you get it (since you are not going to get it checked out before the deal is done, although I agree with the other posters that this would be advisable even if you know the seller well). I think you have a good buy here given the HQ300 is about the same age as my DC1 and has all the same Disklavier functionality, plus it is 52' vertical so likely to have better bass than a 5"3' grand piano. All for approx 1/4 the price of my DC1. Well done!!

My DC1 is sweet \:D but so far I have only had a chance to play it for a couple of evenings after work. The children of course love it and were practising everyday since it was delivered, but will have a break with no practice while we are away. They will get back into the swing of things when we return.

Let us know how you go once you have taken delivery of your piano. Cheers \:\)
Posted by: shannada

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/13/07 08:45 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by clam:
Still couldn't decide between the K3, K5 or K6 but the K6 is really going to blow my budget. Are used Kawais any good? The guy in Roberts advised me to get new ones. [/b]
Clam
IMO a good condition used piano is just as good (if not better) a proposition as a brand new piano, in that you could probably afford to get a better performing used piano than a similarly priced new piano.

Used Kawais up to about 10 years old also use the Millenium I/II action, whereas the new models have the the Millenium III action. Most older Kawais use the ABS plastic action. But there have been incremental improvements introduced with the Millenium series. How big a difference is debatable, and depends on your budget as well.

 Quote:
Originally posted by clam:
For those still interested in looking for piano (Yamaha/Kawai), this is what I've got so far in terms of pricing:

Yamaha U3 (new): $11,450
Yamaha GB1 (new baby grand): $13,500
Yamaha U3 (used, 20 years): $5,500 - $6,000
Kawai K70 (used, 6 yrs): $6,300
Kawai NS-35 (used, 20 yrs): $5,100
Kawai K3 (new): $7,500
Kawai K5 (new): $9,500
Kawai K6 (new): $11,500
Kawai K8 (new): $12,800
[/b]
So which one are you keen on? The above prices look like the standard dealer's list price (without negotiation).
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/13/07 12:15 PM

Thanks shannada for your input. I saw in one of the threads here in PW where there were several pics of grand pianos posted and I was drooling at those beautiful equipment. Actually I was deciding on the K6 but thought that if I add $2K more, I could get a Yamaha baby grand. Digitus however advised that a good tall upright in this case could sound better than a baby grand so there....it's going to be a K6 most likely.
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/15/07 03:44 AM

Shannada,
Welcome back! Ya, I booked Leonard for tuning next friday. Same as piano delivery.

I stay on 10th floor. Do I need to carpet the floor area where the piano is resting? How should I maintain the piano (exterior, interior, keys, etc)

Thanks!
Posted by: shannada

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/15/07 05:21 AM

Silkygals, you would not need to lay down a rug/carpet under your piano unless you expect your room to be particularly conducive to sound reflections, ie there are a lot of hard surfaces (non-carpeted flooring, glass surfaces, bare walls, etc) and not many soft furnishings (couch, curtains, carpets, etc). If you do have a lot of bare/exposed hard surfaces, which seems to be common in Singaporean-style housing, then it may help to reduce sound reflections and the perceived brightness of a piano if you positioned the piano with its soundboard (the back of a vertical piano) facing a soft surface as opposed to a hard surface. For grand pianos, as the soundboard lies horizontally and parallel to the floor, the same effect can be achieved by laying down a rug under the piano.

For general piano maintenance, cleaning of external polished surfaces and keys should only be done with scratch-free cloth (cloth with fine and closed-loop thread). Avoid using cleaners and detergents of any sort as this will spoil the finish of the piano - most people use a bit of warm water if there are particularly stubborn stains. For the interior, generally maintenance/cleaning can be done when the half-yearly tuning takes place, but some people also use the vacuum on reverse cycle (ie. blowing instead of sucking) to expel dust and other particles.

When you've had your piano delivered on Friday week, perhaps you could post some pictures of your Yamaha HQ300?
I am sure many on this forum will be curious to see what it looks like given it is not exactly a mainstream Yamaha product in most parts of the world.
Posted by: Fretless

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/15/07 10:56 PM

Talking about pictures... Shan, we're still waiting for yours! =D
Posted by: silkygals

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/16/07 03:13 AM

Thanks for the tips, Shannada.

Btw, is it good to cover the whole piano with cloth? Someone advises me to cover it up with a piano cover, in case kids or dogs scratches the sides or keyboard cover.

If it is advisable, where can I get one? How much does it cost? Hmmmh.. sorry many questions!

Will post pixs once piano ready! Just 1 more week to go.
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/17/07 09:21 AM

Clam, yea, sometimes a good upright could sounds better than a baby grand. For me, the feel of playing a grand piano is worth sacrfice some bass for it.
Posted by: Steve Cohen

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/17/07 12:31 PM

Isn't it amazing that a thread about getting a piano for a beginner in Asia can grow to over 13 pages and over 300 post.

PianoWorld's Piano Forum is simply awesome!

Frank Baxter, the owner, should be very proud.
Posted by: Norbert

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/17/07 08:09 PM

 Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't it amazing that a thread about getting a piano for a beginner in Asia can grow to over 13 pages and over 300 post.
It just shows how big 'Asia' really is.....

Norbert \:D
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/17/07 08:12 PM

Jarjar, I know what you mean! Just out of curiosity I was at Yamaha's showroom and they let me try out the Baby Grand. Man, it was awesome and I cannot forget the kind of sound it produced. Oh no...this is going to really burn a big hole in my pocket.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/17/07 08:45 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by clam:
Jarjar, I know what you mean! Just out of curiosity I was at Yamaha's showroom and they let me try out the Baby Grand. Man, it was awesome and I cannot forget the kind of sound it produced. Oh no...this is going to really burn a big hole in my pocket. [/b]
Heh heh heh. There is a strongly irrational aspct to buying a piano. If the baby grand floats your boat, go for it already, despite what I and others have said about baby grands!

If my pockets were deeper, there's this Shigeru Kawai that's got my name on it. Sigh. How come it's always somebody else who wins the lottery?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/17/07 08:52 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Cohen:
Isn't it amazing that a thread about getting a piano for a beginner in Asia can grow to over 13 pages and over 300 post.

PianoWorld's Piano Forum is simply awesome!

Frank Baxter, the owner, should be very proud. [/b]
Hey Steve, its not all of Asia, just an insignificant Little Red Dot (TM) on the map called Singapore. ;\) I swear we must have the highest number of piano dealerships on the planet here, per head of population.

You are not wrong about PW's forums being awesome. Its the most enjoyable reading I've had online ever. When I first joined last November I was spending hours in PW everyday scouring the current threads and archives for juicy bits. \:D
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/17/07 08:59 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Fretless:
Talking about pictures... Shan, we're still waiting for yours! =D [/b]
Hmmm...which reminds me that I still owe the forum a picture. If only I'm in the country long enough to tidy up my living room for the snap. :p
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/18/07 04:08 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:
Heh heh heh. There is a strongly irrational aspct to buying a piano. If the baby grand floats your boat, go for it already, despite what I and others have said about baby grands!

If my pockets were deeper, there's this Shigeru Kawai that's got my name on it. Sigh. How come it's always somebody else who wins the lottery?[/b]
Hey Digitus, welcome back....juz back from another trip? I'm being pulled in all directions: my head is pulling me towards the Kawai, my heart is pulling me towards the Baby grands and my purse is pulling me towards used pianos. If you do get the Shigeru Kawai, make sure you post the pic!
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/18/07 06:44 AM

Haha Clam, Digitus got the Kawai K8. Actually I'm looking for a grand piano myself too. I have some choices now, a new Kawai GM10LE (assembled in Japan), a used Kawai RX3 and probably will also consider the new Kawai GE30. I think you should follow your heart, if not you'll be keep thinking of the one your heart wants while you're playing the piano decided by your head or pocket and eventually need to change the piano again after a while.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/18/07 09:02 AM

clam: Yes, back from Beijing on Friday morning. The week before that it was Taipei, and before that it was Atlanta. I'm actually NOT traveling this week, so I get to tickle my Baby a little more than I do.

Sadly, there will be no Shigeru Kawai until I win the lottery. I actually have space for an SK-5, but like I said, the spirit is willing but the wallet is weak. \:\(
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/18/07 10:07 AM

I know you are right about the part on following the heart, jarjar. That's why I holding back till the Yamaha Fair in Apr where they are giving away 11% discounts for some models. I think I'll move in for the kill (for the Baby Grand) then.

Digitus, how much does a Shigeru Kawai costs?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/18/07 02:23 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by clam:

Digitus, how much does a Shigeru Kawai costs? [/b]
Depends on which one. The 6'1" SK-3 is VERY roughly $45k.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/18/07 11:08 PM

One can simulate the grand piano sound by removing the front panel !!!
Sounds so real, so economical.

But the touch of a normal upright still cannot.... \:\) Good enough lah.
Posted by: jessica_y

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/18/07 11:47 PM

Robert Piano sells the SK-2 at $42k.. not sure if can get how much discount
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/19/07 10:04 AM

Woa...40 over grand. Looks like I have to start queueing at my office Toto outlet across the street.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/19/07 12:50 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by clam:
Woa...40 over grand. Looks like I have to start queueing at my office Toto outlet across the street. [/b]
And that's still cheaper than the Steinway upright!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/19/07 11:14 PM

let me see.... if i save $400 per month.. i can buy the SK-2 in 10 years time. Add my year end bonus, maybe 9 years time..... hehehe (at the same time buy some toto quick picks)
Posted by: thummy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/24/07 12:45 PM

Hi, I just found PW while searching for reviews on buying pianos. Glad to have found this!

I'm looking for a new piano (budget below 5K) or used piano (budget below 4K) for my 6yo son. Been shopping around for 2 wks, and still can't make up my mind, coz with the small budget, it's quite hard to find. My preference is Yamaha or Kawai (quite inclined to kawai), though may consider other recommendations.

Been to many piano shops. Renner, asia piano, Mun Kai, Pianoman's shop, Piano Passion, Emmanuel & Sons, Cristori Bedok, Robert piano & Yamaha.

Found the following used ones..
1. Used U1 (more than 20 yo, original)
2. Kawai BS2A (16 yo)
3. Kawai BL-20 (below20 yo)
4. Kawai CX-21DP (below 10 yo)
5. Used U1 (30-40 yo, reconditioned)
6. Yamaha LU100 (abt 10 yo) - buy & upgrade later
7. Kawai BL-10 (below 20 yo)

Tried new pianos..
1. Yamaha JU101, M112T, JX116
2. Kawai K3 (tempted, but above budget)
3. Hailun
4. Wendl & Lung
5. Atlas
6. Nottingham

I welcome comments and reviews, and more recommendations.
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/24/07 08:30 PM

Hi thummy, welcome aboard! I know what you mean - when it comes to buying pianos, it's never straightforward, especially considering these musical intruments are not exactly cheap.

I'm not sure about the other makes but I am more familiar with Yamaha and Kawai, and you are better off getting a used Yamaha or Kawai which can sound pretty good despite the age for that price. New Kawais are expensive and even low end Kawai like K3 is about $7K+.

But I do know that there will be a Yamaha fair on Apr 7,8 where you can get pretty good discounts. For example, you can get a M112T for $5,600 (plus extra tuning and free gifts).

Having said that, if the piano is also for yourself or other adults besides your kid, you may want to up your budget and get a better one that will lasts longer and make your purchase a more satisfying one.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/25/07 07:43 AM

thummy, go for Kawai !!! \:\) i somehow prefer it to my U1 - but that depends on the piano you sample...
Go for the tone, then test if the action is ok.
That's right, these 2 brands are quite reliable and trouble free. Tuning are stable too.
Enjoy your search....
Posted by: thummy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/25/07 12:22 PM

Thanks Clam and Snoopycar for your replies.

I have heard about the upcoming Yamaha fair because authorized dealers are already offering these discounts and freebies. But yet, I could only afford the lower end ones.

Wanted to buy the M112T at %5.6k at one point, but later heard from 1 dealer that it is actually not fully made in Japan, it's made in Indonesia. So, held back.

Frankly, my heart goes with the kawais, because the sound is really so "mellow" compared to Yamaha, which is higher pitch. (I learnt the word mellow after shopping around for 2 weeks).

Snoopycar, I don't know how to really listen to the tone and check the action. I only can pretend to peep inside to look at the hammerheads and the felts, but don't really know how to tell the difference. For the tone, only can rely on the demonstrator to show off their skills, and to me, most kawais sound good. Only difference I can tell is the taller the piano, the better the sound. So that's how I judge. :p

Got 1 kawai really captured my hubby's heart is the BS2A, which is a special edition. Looks very new, nice inside, and the sound is good. Only prob is the age of 16 yrs, and around 4k. Good buy? What's really so special about the "special edition"?

I myself is a dummy when it comes to music. Nobody is the house knows how to play the piano. Only hope is my younger one, now 2 yo, other than my 6 yo. Initially, I was very shy when I started shopping for piano alone, as I had to ask the most basic and dumb questions, even about what the 3 pedals were for.

Today, my son's piano teacher commented that he needs more practice, but my son replied that "mummy is still looking for one, must wait". :p Looks like I gotta make up my mind by this week. Stressed!

Of the 3 kawai models, BS2A, BL-10 and CX-21, which is better?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/25/07 10:01 PM

16 year old for a Japanese imported piano is a good mature age - if it's well taken care of. Meaning, the strings and soundboard are typically stabilize. Are the wood colour of the hammers and felt in bright shade?

Aiya... i'm not expert too. Just play some appregio and broken chords up and down the key range. Play some bach, morzart, fur elise, some easy richard clayderman lor. Heard if the music is pleasing, heart melting or harsh. Of course the piano has to be well tuned to begin with.

BS-2A, not sure what special edition comes with. Does anybody know? Special key tops?? But anyway, i think a standard height 121-131 is a good balance between price and sound. I got a feeling special edition is perhaps exterior finishings like lines or trimmings - even pedals.

If you need someone to confirm for you before you purchase, other than the saleman himself, you can ask anyone of us to go to the shop with you. We can give you a un-bias evaluation. Just pretend and say we are your friend lor.... \:\) You can me as i'm a piano craze, not expert, but helpful guy.
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/26/07 10:09 AM

Kawai is also my preferred choice. It never crossed my mind until I tried it out and hear it for myself. I like the touch and the sound. It's pretty unanimous that most people will find Yamaha's sound a little bright. If you go for used piano that age, make sure you hit every key to make there are no sticky keys or that certain keys are "harder" than the rest. The feel of each key should be pretty even. Suggest you take up on snoopycar's offer and get him along. I'm sure a nice latte is enough. ;\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/27/07 08:43 AM

what is a nice latte? coffee?
Swensen treat will do lah \:\)
Posted by: thummy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/27/07 10:33 AM

According to the Robert piano salesman, the special edition is really nothing special except that in that particular year, when Kawai wants to celebrate some event, it produced a certain no of pieces (eg. 10k) of that model and labelled them special edition.

Snoopycar, I wished I could play "twinkle twinkle little star", let alone some Richard Clayderman or Mozart! haha.... If I had known just a little bit more, I wouldn't have been so stressed. Thanks for your offer to help evaluating. That can save me 70 bucks! Can buy latte and swensen for you!

Does anybody know roughly what is the price gap between buying a piano direct from owner and one from dealer? Other than movers and tuning, is there anything else to take care of when buying direct? Is it good to get a dealer to touch up on the piano after buying, like opening up the inside to clean?

Clam, thanks for your tip! Is it that the keys get sticky if the previous owner doesn't turn on the heater?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/27/07 11:38 PM

Price gap does varies.. The more you shop around, the more you'll get familiar with the market price. You can also compare with yahoo action price. Some are realistic, some are over priced. Some seller do indeed sell at a reasonable price. But shopping around cost time.

Shop have overheads and human cost. So it's expected to factor into the selling price. Bottom line is to fine a piano that suits the needs of the musician or student. It's gonna live with the family for many years ahead. Shouldn't have to rush into making a decision.


It could be cost effective if you get a 2nd hand medium range piano from private seller.

http://sg.auctions.yahoo.com/sg/i:KAWAI%...Piano:231938700

There's a K25 seller at the sg.auction. I think $3000 is a realistic price for this intermediate range piano.

http://sg.auctions.yahoo.com/sg/i:ROSEWOOD%20COLOUR%20PEARL%20RIVER%20UPRIGHT%20PIANO:212645117

Pearl River can be econimical. But usually it's harsh sound turn people off. Surely technician can reshape and voice the tone to a acceptable sound.

If the heater is not turn on for a long time:
Due to moisture, and humidity, wood change shape, if the wood wasn't season in the klin properly.

On some piano, the wood that holds the bush at the pivoting hammer or whippen expands and squeeze the pin tight. This make the friction increase, sometime "stuck keys", technically the action is stuck. Sometimes the hammer get stuck and dosent return to rest. Usually the keys of old pianos are loose with side free play, so the expansion of the bush still can't cause a "stuck key".
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/28/07 09:53 AM

snoopycar has given a pretty technical explanation on stuck keys. Look also for pretty constant "gaps" between keys. Sometimes, the previous owner (probably kid) pushed the keys sideways. The heater will also prevent moisture from accumulating on the strings causing it to tarnish or even rust.

You assume alot of the risk if you buy from another owner. The risk can be mitigated somewhat if you know the owner well. Also you have to arrange your own mover so you have to factor the price in. Bring someone(like snoopycar) along to have a second opinion and more objective assessment.

Buying from a dealer (especially those that are piano technicians) will be less of a hassle. And typically you get a wide variety to choose from and compare. Some even have buy back, upgrade, comes with certain number of free tunings, delivery inclusive, etc. Many of them have a reputation to maintain and so are more careful in what they recommend as compared to an owner anxious to get rid of the piano and don't give a hoot to reputation.

This is just my personal opinion and I'm not saying that buying direct from owners will necessary be a bad experience. Just be aware of the pros and cons.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/28/07 10:34 AM

Here are two books that you may have seen mentioned in other posts in PW:

"The Piano Book", 4ed, by Larry Fine, plus the 2007 supplement. I've seen both book and supplement at Books Kinokuniya in Ngee Ann City.

"Piano Servicing, Tuning, and Rebuilding", by Arthur A. Reblitz.

I bought both from Amazon.com. You can get more details there. There is more information in those books that you might want (or need), but better to have it accessible than not. Actually its fascinating reading for us piano-heads heheh.
Posted by: thummy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/28/07 12:35 PM

Snoopycar, thanks for informing about the auction. The Kawai would be nice to own. Still like the lovely sound of kawais, compared to others.

Just want to share one recent experience. I went for one viewing after seeing one online posting. The contact person was a nice guy, but not his family members. They actually stopped my son (the future owner) from touching the piano, saying that it could make it go out of tune. And before the daughter played a short piece, she told her aunt to keep my son away so as not to disturb her. Think this family is not quite ready to sell it. Luckily I did not do anything drastic except the basic visual checks, otherwise they might have thrown me out.

Buying from dealer does have the risk taken care of, but only gotta pay a premium for the price. However, sometimes, those pianos in shops looked so nice that I wonder if it is the truth. More than 15 yo still look so brand new.

Digitus, thanks for your recommendation.

Do we really need to tune every 6 months, or can we drag a bit to 9 - 12 months if the usual is low? Pardon my ignorance.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/28/07 03:55 PM

thummy, yes second-hand pianos can look and sound that good. But it does take time to find the right one. I didn't have the time so I dug deep into my pocket to get a new piano.

As for tuning frequency, how long you can go between tunings is determined by your own ears. Regardless of how well you control the environment your piano sits in, the tuning *will* drift. New pianos will need to be tuned more frequently, at least 3 times in the first year, or whenever you can't take it anymore. The piano will hold a tuning longer as the instrument gets older (and the strings stretch less over time). Other factors that contribute to loss of tuning are significant changes in temperature and/or humidity of the piano's environment.

Frankly, after having paid so much money for an acoustic instrument, I would gladly pay the money for a good piano tech to keep my piano playing and sounding the best possible.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/28/07 07:30 PM

Yes, pianos of 15yo from japan are quite good condition. It's like sitting in a showroom \:\) humidity and air is very ideal there- some parts of japan(unless its place in a industry park..)

But a 15yo piano in singapore non climate control home, it's different thing....
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/28/07 08:41 PM

same analogy is like a car... must change oil frequently lah.... hehehe synthetic oil, 10000km, minaral oil 5000km interval.

or like the bicycle tyre... must pump tyre every week, if not it goes flat, and ride become woobling.... \:\)
Posted by: thummy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/30/07 12:43 AM

Talking about car and oil ... my tank is now low, after searching around for 3 weeks, exhausted all means and visited most shops, but still haven't got any catch. Now also got lots of sales calls from shops that I've visited. *headache*

Got 1 kawai, CX-21H, 8+ yo, quite heavily utilised, going at 2.5+k? Is it a good buy? The sound is okay (not fantastic though) but the inside looks quite dirty, though the hammerheads and felt looks in shape. Gotta self-collect and tune.

Saw the Robert piano advertisement of the K3 again today. Drooling .... at $7.5k, is it a good buy? It's the lowest end of the exam model, but is the sound good?
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/30/07 01:28 AM

double posted... sorry
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/30/07 01:29 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by thummy:
It's the lowest end of the exam model, but is the sound good? [/b]
Someone care to explain what's all about exam models and how different are they built ? Or do you mean the model was used for piano exam. How about concert model, leisure model or etc model, do they exists ?
Regards..
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/30/07 10:09 AM

Exam model means you can bring your piano to the examination studio to play ... hehehe

Yah, i also also hear this term "exam model"... what does it really mean? Key weight standard? Key dip 10mm standard? fast enough repeatition?
Good dynamics range for expression?

Again, perhaps it's like sports shoes. How many people wears it for day to day walking, to work, to jalan jalan. Wear sports shoes doen't means go to sports competition. But it is not impossible to wear a cheap shoe to win a runing event.

If the shop guys promotes, hey man, you'll need this exam model for your kid, go more and say, i want a competition model. Exam mode won't do for me... hehehe \:\)

But seriously, Yamaha U1 tend to be a popular exam reference. So any piano design their touch and dynamic to be similiar quality could be called exam model......

tomorrow is sat
happy practising.....
Posted by: thummy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/30/07 01:03 PM

From what I know, "exam model" is the term used often by some brands (typically Kawai) to refer to upright pianos of height 121cm and above. Those below 121cm are referred to "academic model". Yamaha doesn't use this term. In fact, in Yamaha shops, they pasted a notice from the S'pore Exam board to state that there is no such thing called "exam model". U1 is their typical exam model (of height 121cm). Any other versions?
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/30/07 11:22 PM

From what I heard, "exam model" refers to 121 cm height because apparently the pianos used for exams are of this height (of course they won't spend too much money on higher ones, right?).

I've tried the new K3 at Robert Piano and I was actually blown away by the sound even though it was the "lowest" end there. I believe RP also have got some pre-owned Kawais too and I planned to drop by for a look. Right now, I'm set on a used Kawai K50 but wanted to take a last round of look.
Posted by: jonray

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/31/07 01:17 AM

thummy,
I think your budget is reasonable but I think like clam that you are better off looking for a used one. You should have many choices with 4K for a used 132 Kawai. If you have gotten an Japan imported piano 16 year is almost new. I was in the same situation as you and it took me a year to find a used piano. My first purchase was a lemon. So don't rush into it.
Posted by: himynameisjc

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/31/07 06:18 AM

Hi,
I haven't read every[/b] single post that has been posted in this thread, but all i have to say is that i think the best way to find a beautiful second hand (upright?) piano, is to get in touch with the best technician/s locally in singapore as the market may not be(?) as big as that of America's or otherwise. Im sorry jonray that your first piano was a lemon! That must've been really awful! \:\( .

Good luck
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/31/07 10:21 AM

himynameisjc: definnately a good suggestion.

jonray, it's ok if it's a cheap lemon, you can canabilze it and make it into a tv display stand or computer table .... hehehe

Seriously what happen to the lemon?
Can it be saved? anything can be do about it?
Share the lemon and it won't be so sour anymore
Posted by: Posamenten

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/31/07 10:42 AM

Hi, everybody,

this is my very first post in Pianoworld. We just moved to Singapore from Europe three months ago and I am a total beginner in piano. Thanks to this thread (especially the addresses on the first page and all the discussions on techniques and tips), I have found my piano after two week intensive search (including hiring two independent piano technicians)! The one I bought is Yamaha UX10 BL (15 yr old) from Asia Piano. Another shop that I would strongly recommend is Music Lodge (also for second hand). But I would suggest calling the shop owner (Mr. & Ms. Chong, 94557879) before going there, because they can really share their rich experience with you, however they are not always in the shop. So must call first. Both of the two Shops (Asia Piano and Music Lodge) have big range of second hand pianos at very competitive price (I have run over 8 second hand piano shops and this is my true feeling). And both shop owners are qualified piano technicians, very friendly and professional. The Asia Piano has the buy-back guarantee, which may be interesting for the expatriates.

Now I start to look for a piano teacher. I wonder if it is a good idea to let the piano teacher come to our place, as I heard that the real “GOOD” teachers only give lesson in their own studio. Is this true? We live close to the East Coast Park, can anyone recommend good teachers to me? Thanks!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/31/07 11:11 AM

Welcome Posamenten!! \:\)

hehehe, music lodge is Mr&Mrs Chug, chong is last name.. Chug is family name

Seems like piano is back, bye bye plasma and ps2
Posted by: Posamenten

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/31/07 11:22 AM

Hi, Snoopycar,

Thanks a lot for the correction. Sorry for the mistake. I really have thought the people in Singapore also put their family name in the end.

BTW, any tips for the piano teacher?
Posted by: thummy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/31/07 12:17 PM

Asia piano do really have quite a good selection of Kawais and Yamahas, but the important thing is to know what you actually want and know how to choose. Their shop may not have many display sets but the warehouse stocks quite a lot.

For me, my problem is the choosing part, cos I do not have music background at all. All I could rely on is my ears and eyes, and I have no confidence in my choice. Still hunting ....

It would of course be nice to know some piano technician to help in choosing, but unfortunately I don't know of any. I have spoken to Leonard from Asia Piano. He sounds nice and willing to share knowledge. I told him PW forum has been talking about him. hehehe....

Can somebody share who or which shop does good tuning work, and what are their rates please?

Is it good/necessary to get a professional to clean up, polish and tune after buying used piano?

I wished there is some website where there is a more exhaustive list of piano models, giving more details like their height, reviews. Does anybody know of one?
Posted by: thummy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 03/31/07 12:25 PM

Anybody has good piano movers to recommend also?
May need one soon ... ;P
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/01/07 09:16 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by clam:
From what I heard, "exam model" refers to 121 cm height because apparently the pianos used for exams are of this height (of course they won't spend too much money on higher ones, right?).[/b]
Hmm.. I guess in order a car to be an exam car, my guess would be anything above 2.5 cc hee heee .....

Sorry to be a little rude here, but I don’t get it why so blindly fooled into this term. Why so stupid le... Do you think there is really an exam piano. I think if a piano is in good condition – tune is in pitch, touch is in regulation then it will be right for any purpose….
I guess everybody should get these European & American pianos and not Japanese because these pianos are built to performance and can be use for all-purpose….. ... hee hee.. In case one decide to play leisure later and not exam... :p
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/01/07 10:02 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by thummy:
In fact, in Yamaha shops, they pasted a notice from the S'pore Exam board to state that there is no such thing called "exam model". [/b]
Ar.. yuppie I remember reading a notice letter from the ABRSM some 2 years ago about "there is no such thing called "Exam Model / Piano". If I remember correctly, the letter stated its pre-requisite to be an exam piano is that it must be proper tune and regulated...
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/01/07 10:47 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by thummy:
Anybody has good piano movers to recommend also?
May need one soon ... ;P [/b]
Try Alan : 97811240
Good price and dependable
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/01/07 10:55 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Posamenten:
Hi, Snoopycar,

Thanks a lot for the correction. Sorry for the mistake. I really have thought the people in Singapore also put their family name in the end.

BTW, any tips for the piano teacher? [/b]
No problem..... it just happens that i also spoken to them before, so i remember ...
Somehow, the caller will find out sooner, but, it's correct person, it'll align itself. \:\)

Well, a good teacher is the inner-self, desiring to know the keyboard, the position of the black and white keys... start with J.S. Bach. It'll warm up your mental fingers... hehehe
Posted by: thummy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/02/07 12:04 PM

*Drums rolling... I've finally bought my first piano, a Kawai K25, and it is now sitting beautifully in my house. A very proud owner now, and glad that my search is over.
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/02/07 02:03 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Posamenten:
Now I start to look for a piano teacher. I wonder if it is a good idea to let the piano teacher come to our place, as I heard that the real “GOOD” teachers only give lesson in their own studio. Is this true? We live close to the East Coast Park, can anyone recommend good teachers to me? Thanks! [/b]
Unfortunately, hunting for a "good" teacher can be as tricky as hunting for a good piano in the first place. Is it for your children or for yourself? Is it for examination purpose or for leisure like pop/jazz? My niece takes her lesson at the teacher's home in Sembawang. I'm currently taking lessons from a teacher in Ang Mo Kio learning pop piano for leisure. My sister used to take her lessons from Christofori and she told me it was not bad; but then again, that teacher may no more be there. Sometimes, the only way is to try out for a month or two and you will be able to tell.
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/02/07 02:10 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by thummy:
*Drums rolling... I've finally bought my first piano, a Kawai K25, and it is now sitting beautifully in my house. A very proud owner now, and glad that my search is over. [/b]
Hey thummy, congratulations on the purchase! Hope you and your family will have hours of fun with it.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/02/07 07:42 PM

rumbling roll......
Congrads on your purchase.
This time, don't use the vacuum cleaner on the piano surface... hehehe \:\)

How does it sounds? Beautiful and can fell in love tone?
Posted by: thummy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/03/07 02:49 AM

Haven't got it tuned after moving, not sure when was the last tuning done.

The sound is beautiful, I think, but have yet to test its full potential (coz nobody in the house can really play well).

Clam, mind if you share more info on learning pop piano? ... sounds interesting .. maybe I could pick it up ...

Now my next challenge is to learn about piano maintenance, tuning (find a good tuner) and helping my kid sustain the interest ...

What kind of cleaning kit should I get? I've got nothing at all now. Sori, another dummy question ...
Posted by: Posamenten

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/03/07 02:55 AM

Hi, clam,

Thanks a lot for you tips. I am an adult beginner. So the teacher is for me. I like but classic music and jazz. For me the foundation is very important, as I wish that I could play the music piece totally on my own in the future. Currently I am trying two teachers at the same time. One is giving lesson in her own home studio. Another one comes to my place. Honestly I like the first one, but the trip to her place is a bit too long and too expensive. So I am considering to offer her a higher payment so that she can come over to my place (since she has a car, so it is much easier for her. I have to take the schuttle bus from my condo and then normal bus and later change to another bus..... The cab costs over 16 Dollar for round trip...). But I am keeping looking for more teachers on the east coast. Now I have gathered five names ;-).
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/03/07 10:19 AM

oops, thummy, the vacuum cleaner joke was refering to clam...

thummy, you've got PM

Generally, moist cloth can be use to remove fingerprints. The shinning polyester is tough.
I leave my U1 bear, no piano cover. But i put a towel on top to front when i place music scores on the rack to prevent scratches on the front board.

Having a healthy mix of some pop, classical is good. I'm a adult beginner too. Haven't venture into jazz yet. Still in love with JSBach music.... Still trying hard to finish off Invention no4. my mind is saturated.

Yeah... choosing teacher is beginning to be like piano shopping huh?... this one better, that one better, but the other is also better.... but this one is charming.. that one is pretty..... hehehe
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/03/07 11:18 AM

No vacuum cleaner is going anywhere near my piano that's for sure.

I also prefer to leave my piano uncovered except for the top in case someone decides to put a scissor on the top! It will look very nice with its black polished surface reflecting the surrounding.

I used the Yamaha polish to polish the piano once in a while because for some strange reason, the surface will become "blur" but the polish will restore the shine beautifully. And no vacuum cleaner on your piano! ha!

Me, I'm still struggling with a simple piece: Moonlight Sonata. Somehow some parts just don't seem right. Must be the piano...a good reason to change to a new one. hehe.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/04/07 01:22 AM

perhaps the blur is the oil mist stain from the kitchen.... hehehe
Posted by: jonray

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/04/07 04:09 AM

My lemon was traded in for $50. I was a noob when I first started. My son was a beginner with no idea what is a good piano. Anything that produce sound seems good. It turns out that the piano was rebuilt before and the wood below the key was spurting out fine wood dust. I found out later that the chip wood (which was most like replace before was fraying).

It is good to look for a someone who know. Indeed, I have learn a few tips from Leonard from Asia piano, though I did not make my purchase from him.
Posted by: jonray

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/04/07 04:09 AM

My lemon was traded in for $50. I was a noob when I first started. My son was a beginner with no idea what is a good piano. Anything that produce sound seems good. It turns out that the piano was rebuilt before and the wood below the key was spurting out fine wood dust. I found out later that the chip wood (which was most like replace before was fraying).

It is good to look for a someone who know. Indeed, I have learn a few tips from Leonard from Asia piano, though I did not make my purchase from him.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/04/07 09:48 AM

$50 !! Very Jia Lak man...
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/04/07 11:38 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by thummy:
Clam, mind if you share more info on learning pop piano? ... sounds interesting .. maybe I could pick it up ...[/b]
Pop piano rests alot on playing with chords on your left hand, or variations of it at least, while the right hand plays the actual song or melody. As the name suggests, it is vey suitable for pop music and who doesn't enjoy pop music? It helps alot if you are familiar with the song as well. The emphasis will not be on following strict timing, tempo, etc, while playing classical pieces you may not have heard it in your life. However, while it is definitely easier than learning the "classical" way, you still need to learn some basic knowledge on notes, have alot of practice with your fingering, etc. But even my mom at 55+ years old learn it from a teacher, I'm sure you can as well. All the best!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/05/07 12:54 AM

yoyoyo, start with C major lor.

Clam: wow, moonlight sonata... very romantic man... Have you tried the Mozart K545 piano sonata in C? very trilling indeed.
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/05/07 11:00 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
yoyoyo, start with C major lor.

Clam: wow, moonlight sonata... very romantic man... Have you tried the Mozart K545 piano sonata in C? very trilling indeed. [/b]
Wah sounds like a very complicated piece...wait..slowly...let me finish the Moonlight Sonata first. Otherwise all my pieces I learn to play only halfway.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/06/07 03:07 AM

No lah, not a complex piece.... but i only know the 1st movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2sdOwMkdf8

This pop piece is also nice and charming.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abEEDv-XIek
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/07/07 11:29 AM

This is embarrassing...to play like that little girl in the video, I'd need 4 hands with 8 fingers in each hand. :p
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/07/07 09:42 PM

oh, Yamaha Fair is ON arg.... special offer... U1$8500
http://www1.yamaha.com.sg/

Clam, don't worry, can add legs too...
Aiya.. every piece takes times to learn and memorize to play it musically. Just close you eyes and the music flow out automatically from you fingers...

Which version moonlight sonata are you learing? c#minor?
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/08/07 09:43 AM

Hello. It's me again.

After a very busy three months, I am all ready to shopfor my piano again.

The Brodmanns have arrived. So I will be going down to take a look.

Wah. So many people have gotten their pianos. So envious!!
Posted by: thummy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/08/07 01:35 PM

Kawai is also having sale now!!!! 20% off the usual price. K3 is now only $6999. Also, for people who don't mind display sets for the older models, can get at good price also.

Too bad, I've just got mine, or I'll rush down to grab one .. hehe ..
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/09/07 05:48 AM

20% !!!

would'nt that make the GE10 or GM10 $11200(normal $13999 ??
Very tempted to buy leh.......must resist
Posted by: pufferfish

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/10/07 06:12 AM

Hello everybody. I'm new here. I was shopping around for a piano for my little daughter. We went to see Yamaha, Kawai, Moutrie, Toyama, Cristofori and Nottingham.

Obviously this is turning out to be a much larger exercise than we expected. There are simply tons of made-in-China pianos out there - for a budget of $5,000 or less - and nothing else. Just looking at the China pianos made my head spin.

For a lower-end Japanese one, it a close call between K3 and U1 but they come at a price of $7,000 and above. The M113T is cheaper but the touch and sound cannot make it (to us, that is).

Does anyone have any experience to share with their Kawais, Yamahas, or made-in-China pianos?

FYI, we don't play the piano.
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/10/07 11:14 AM

OK....another drum roll.....I just got myself the Kawai K8. Don't know what got into me that day. I was supposed to walk in and order the 26-yr old US50 but ended with a new K8 which is more than doubled my original budget . The only consolation I have is that they have a 20% discount.....yeah!

I was down at the Yamaha Fair too. The way people are snapping up the GB1 & GC1 baby grands is like they are buying tissue papers and I had to walk out quickly before I end up with a K8 AND a GB1!

snoopycar: yup, in C#minor.

Pufferfish, warm welcome to you! I wouldn't advise you to look at China-made pianos because most of them I encountered are not too good. Maybe someone has a positive experience? If you don't mind pre-owned pianos, you can get a pretty good Yamaha or Kawai for that money.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/10/07 11:57 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by clam:
OK....another drum roll.....I just got myself the Kawai K8. Don't know what got into me that day. I was supposed to walk in and order the 26-yr old US50 but ended with a new K8 which is more than doubled my original budget . The only consolation I have is that they have a 20% discount.....yeah!

I was down at the Yamaha Fair too. The way people are snapping up the GB1 & GC1 baby grands is like they are buying tissue papers and I had to walk out quickly before I end up with a K8 AND a GB1!
[/b]
Way to go! You did exactly what I did, scrape around inside my wallet to double the budget. You'll be very happy with the K8. And don't worry about the Yamaha baby grands. The K8 can more than hold its own against them.

Which reminds me, its time for tuning #2 for my K8.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/10/07 12:06 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pufferfish:
Hello everybody. I'm new here. I was shopping around for a piano for my little daughter. We went to see Yamaha, Kawai, Moutrie, Toyama, Cristofori and Nottingham.

Obviously this is turning out to be a much larger exercise than we expected. There are simply tons of made-in-China pianos out there - for a budget of $5,000 or less - and nothing else. Just looking at the China pianos made my head spin.

For a lower-end Japanese one, it a close call between K3 and U1 but they come at a price of $7,000 and above. The M113T is cheaper but the touch and sound cannot make it (to us, that is).

Does anyone have any experience to share with their Kawais, Yamahas, or made-in-China pianos?

FYI, we don't play the piano. [/b]
Welcome to PW, Singapore style. I guess you know by now that Kawai and Yamaha are having one of the two sales they have every year. I have a bias towards the Kawai sound, so would suggest the K3. (Actually I have much MUCH more expensive tastes in piano, but the wallet is very weak.)

For an interesting comparison, check out Brodmann at Pianoman in Bukit Timah Plaza. Made in China, but some people give their top end upright the thumbs up.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/10/07 05:55 PM

hi pufferfish, welcome to the forum too.
I also think K3 is good performace for price comparison. Higher ends kawai may have neotex key and duplex string scaling, which might not be necessary ....
China piano, can "look" and compare carefully.
To buy, you'd have to consider very very carefully. It's gotta do with inner quality and reliability. Just like cars, QQ, Getz, Jazz, Civic, camry. K3 is like honda jazz, Yamaha U1 is like toyota Vios hehehe

Clam: Congrads on yr new K8!! when is the piano warming party??? ... why didn't you get GE10?

Wah! people are snapping up grands at yamaha..
wonderful..
Posted by: zmm

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/10/07 10:53 PM

hi

i'm new here. May i know where is the Kawai sales held? Is it still on? I know that Yamaha fair was held over the weekend? Is there a good catch?

My girl is doing her grade 2 and my boy has been learning the piano for about a year. He shows more potential than his sister.

We have a 27 year old Kaiser that is way off key and cannot be tuned correctly any more. The kids have been complaining that their songs sound different at home as compared to their music school.

So i'm thinking of getting a new piano. But my budget is constrained. Not cheap to have kids in Spore and to send them for music lessons, etc.

Would appreciate some advice on getting a decent budget piano. Was thinking of either a Yamaha or a Kawai.

Thank you!
Posted by: pufferfish

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/10/07 11:43 PM

Hey guys, thanks for your advice and ideas. Really appreciate them.

Congratulations on getting your K8, clam.

Looking at what's available in Singapore - which are mostly China or Japan pianos - I guess we couldn't go wrong with a Yamaha or Kawai.

We did visit Pianoman over the weekend. If I don't recall wrongly the Brodmann upright was going at $7k+, and they have a Brodmann grand there too.

Some China pianos like sound ok, but I'm afraid they won't age very well and become more bright and irritating as time goes by. Kawai has good sound and touch. Yamaha is a little inconsistent - their J series, M112T and U1 feel and sound somewhat disparate. The Yamaha fair should be over by now, and prices back to normal. That should make the U1 a $9k+ piano.

snoopycar, we don't play the piano, so we're absolutely clueless about inner qualities and reliability. What we know we learnt from this forum (thanks again, guys) and from our chats with the piano sales folks. You can imagine the murky pools of sales pitches we have to wade through. Eventually when we do buy a piano, it may still be a stab in the dark, even though our eyes may have become a little more accustomed to the lack of light.

For the price of a K8, I guess you can get a weekend QQ. lol
Posted by: RichterForever

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/11/07 02:15 AM

After a rather lengthy search I got myself the YUS5. Must say that I was initially not too pleased with its tone straight after delivery as it was quite badly out of tune. Just had its first tuning a few days back and I am now reminded why I chose it over so many other makes and models. I'm amazed what a proper tuning can do to a piano's colour and voice.
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/11/07 10:50 AM

Digitus: Thanks for reminding me I still have company in this highly emotional exercise of buying a K8. So how's your K8 so far?

snoopycar: Thanks. Piano warming party? Mmmm....I'm still recovering from the shock with what I just did and you want me to get a GE10? Probably need to go for counselling pretty soon.

Zmm: Welcome! What's your budget? If you can stretch it, get a new low-end Kawai like the K3. Robert Piano is still having a sale I believe.

pufferfish: Thanks. Yup, pretty close to that weekend China car...So have you decided? Go for the K3.

RichterForever: YUS5....good choice there.
Posted by: zmm

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/11/07 11:15 AM

thanks clam! Will call up Robert Piano to enquire.

So the K3 is about $6999..... Looking at something around $5000 or less. But with <$5000, can only get 2nd hand piano right?

I read somewhere that 2nd hand piano which are not thoroughly cleaned may carry lots of dust/bugs/bacteria. Bad for asthmatics and my kids are asthmatic .... *sigh*

i would still love to go for a new piano ...... *dream* ... We sporeans like cheap and good stuff. But guess that this can't apply to buying pianos.
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/11/07 11:39 AM

zmm, with about $5K, yes, you are limited to pre-owned pianos. But these pianos are not as scary as what you imagined them to be. These 2nd-hand pianos are in pretty good condition and well-maintained because they get them from Japan. I've seen several pianos that looks quite new at the inside because of the cool weather and low humiditiy in Japan. Just to share my discovery when I started out shopping for a piano: Asia Piano has a 7-yr old Kawai K50 going for about $5.7K and that was the one I almost plonk my money into. They also got a USX7 going for about $4K+. Robert Piano also sells some pretty good 2nd-hand Kawai pianos. They had a couple of US50 going for $5.5-$5.8K and they look like they are 5 yr old when they are about 24-26 yrs old. Don't rule them out totally. I suggest you go take a look for yourself.
Posted by: zmm

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/11/07 12:03 PM

clam,

thanks again. thinking of taking a look this weekend - Asia Piano @ spore shopping centre and Robert piano.

Robert piano has 4 stores - millenia walk, Parkway, Centrept and Paragon. Which store will u recommend to go?

Sorry have to ask this, cos hv to bring my whole brood along as no alternative help. with 3 kids in tow, u just want to zoom to the target to accomplish purpose.
Posted by: thummy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/11/07 12:47 PM

Clam, Congrats on getting your new K8. So envious!

zmm and pufferfish, welcome! I was in the same boat, searching almost the whole Singapore for my first piano, but glad that I've got what I wanted finally!

Seriously, with a budget of $5k, it's really hard to get a new fully Japan made piano, especially yamaha or kawai. I was quite shy to tell the salesman when asked my budget. If you want a brand new one, you might have to settle for those OEM in china (parts from Japan or Germany, but assemble in china).

Try looking for used pianos (Yamaha or Kawai), it's really not as bad as bringing a "ghost" home together with the old piano.

Keep trying the reputable shops like asia piano, pianoman, mun kai, music clef (suntec), emmanuel & sons, piano passion, zadok.

For Robert piano, do visit the millenia walk branch, I think they are the biggest and the salesman is quite friendly (compared to the hopeless one in parkway). Their used pianos are in good condition (though a bit expensive). Considered the display sets that they advertised, going at about $5.1k?

Another good source is the internet : yahoo auction, ebay, yahoo classified. Can get much cheaper price coz buying directly from owner, though a bit troublesome to contact and view the pianos. Savings sure worth the effort.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/11/07 10:44 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by zmm:
clam,

thanks again. thinking of taking a look this weekend - Asia Piano @ spore shopping centre and Robert piano.

Robert piano has 4 stores - millenia walk, Parkway, Centrept and Paragon. Which store will u recommend to go?

Sorry have to ask this, cos hv to bring my whole brood along as no alternative help. with 3 kids in tow, u just want to zoom to the target to accomplish purpose. [/b]
I prefer the Millenia Walk showroom. The old man spends most of his time there, and if you want to try for a discount he is the one the sales reps turn to for a decision. He is also nice to chat to, but also dangerous because he is a better salesman than the others who work for him!
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/12/07 11:35 AM

thummy: Thanks. Glad you are happy with what you've found at last. Ha ha...you are beginning to sound like an expert in piano shopping now ;\)

digitus: Surprisingly, the few occasions I was there, I do not see him at all.

zmm: As suggested by digitus and thummy, go for the one at Millenia Walk; it is a huge showroom. Good luck to your piano hunting!
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/12/07 02:58 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by RichterForever:
After a rather lengthy search I got myself the YUS5. Must say that I was initially not too pleased with its tone straight after delivery as it was quite badly out of tune. Just had its first tuning a few days back and I am now reminded why I chose it over so many other makes and models. I'm amazed what a proper tuning can do to a piano's colour and voice. [/b]
Oh, nice instrument!
Posted by: pufferfish

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/12/07 08:50 PM

wah, K3 so highly recommended... Not surprising considering the sound it is capable of producing and the power it can deliver.

thummy: you mentioned in an earlier post the K3 is selling at $6,999 after a 20% discount, while stocks last(!). Does that mean the non-promotional price is $8,500? I ask this because the folks at Robert said the non-promotional price was $7,500.

The Millenia Walk showroom is big. While we were there, we got the salesman to play on a couple of Steinways just for the fun of it. My daughter played on the Steinway grand too.

Whenever we go to a piano shop, she will invariably veer towards the grands (she says she prefer the voices of grand pianos to uprights). Ah, but she is also the biggest wild card in this piano-hunting expedition - who knows how long she will remain interested in playing the piano?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/13/07 01:18 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by clam:

digitus: Surprisingly, the few occasions I was there, I do not see him at all.
[/b]
He is there quite often, though he does pop over to regional countries to service Steinways for rich tai tais. His office is the one with the mirrored window, right behind the Shigeru Kawais.
Posted by: zmm

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/13/07 01:48 AM

thank u people! u all are very helpful.

what do you all think of a 1 year old Yamaha M112T going for $4500?
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/13/07 02:26 AM

Hi All.
This is my 1st posting here. :-)
I am currently looking for a piano to replace my '98 Yamaha U1. My teacher recommends "Ellington" & "Otto-Renner", which are both avaiable at Renner Piano. Heard that Ellington was orginally owned by the same manufacturer of Baldwin. It is currently assembled in Korea. Would appreciate comments about these 2 brands about the touch & tone.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/13/07 08:10 AM

How about getting a grand??
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/13/07 10:44 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pufferfish:
wah, K3 so highly recommended... Not surprising considering the sound it is capable of producing and the power it can deliver.

thummy: you mentioned in an earlier post the K3 is selling at $6,999 after a 20% discount, while stocks last(!). Does that mean the non-promotional price is $8,500? I ask this because the folks at Robert said the non-promotional price was $7,500.

The Millenia Walk showroom is big. While we were there, we got the salesman to play on a couple of Steinways just for the fun of it. My daughter played on the Steinway grand too.

Whenever we go to a piano shop, she will invariably veer towards the grands (she says she prefer the voices of grand pianos to uprights). Ah, but she is also the biggest wild card in this piano-hunting expedition - who knows how long she will remain interested in playing the piano? [/b]
Yes, the K3, even though it is an entry model for the K series, is awesome in both sound and touch. I've seen the newspaper ad where they advertised that the normal price of K3 was $8.5K and they were offering a promotion price of $7.5K but now, it seems it is their 20th anniversary or something so another 20% off. As suggested by snoopycar, go for the grand. Even if your daughter gives up playing, it will remain a conversation piece. Who knows, after spending a fortune on the grand, you may be motivated to take up lessons yourself! \:D
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/13/07 11:05 AM

NW: Welcome to this forum! Mmm...not too familiar with the Ellington piano. Read somewhere it was taken over by the Baldwin Piano Company back in 1893. Now it is made for Baldwin by the Beijing Piano Co. in China. I think the Otto-Renner pianos should be pretty good from what I've read though I've not tried it myself. Check out the local website at: http://www.renner.com.sg/ottorenner.html. The price is indicated there too.
Posted by: pufferfish

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/13/07 08:43 PM

So tempting...

If we get a grand piano, we'll have to leave it on the lift landing outside our apartment. \:D

Apart from the lack of space, our neighbour from downstairs may appear at our with an axe one day, telling us sweetly he wants to meet our piano.

And with two kids chasing one another in the house, I can imagine furniture-wrecking scenes from Tom and Jerry transplanted into our own home. I'm referring to episodes where they get at one another's necks, not those where they actually play music on the piano (Hey, I know Tom and Jerry are musically talented).

Grand pianos, grand pianos, grand pianos...

Decisions, decisions, decisions...
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/13/07 09:57 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by NW:
Hi All.
This is my 1st posting here. :-)
I am currently looking for a piano to replace my '98 Yamaha U1. My teacher recommends "Ellington" & "Otto-Renner", which are both avaiable at Renner Piano. Heard that Ellington was orginally owned by the same manufacturer of Baldwin. It is currently assembled in Korea. Would appreciate comments about these 2 brands about the touch & tone. [/b]
Hi NW, welcome to the forum.
May i enquire what is the reasons for replacing your 98 U1? Is it a change of tone taste? Can something be done like voicing, tuning or touch adjustment be done before you replace it?

I feels the U1 has got lots of capability for an 121cm piano - because i have one too:) maybe my skill have not exceed my U1 yet.. hehehe
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/13/07 10:06 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pufferfish:
So tempting...

If we get a grand piano, we'll have to leave it on the lift landing outside our apartment. \:D

Apart from the lack of space, our neighbour from downstairs may appear at our with an axe one day, telling us sweetly he wants to meet our piano.

And with two kids chasing one another in the house, I can imagine furniture-wrecking scenes from Tom and Jerry transplanted into our own home. I'm referring to episodes where they get at one another's necks, not those where they actually play music on the piano (Hey, I know Tom and Jerry are musically talented).

Grand pianos, grand pianos, grand pianos...

Decisions, decisions, decisions... [/b]
Well... grand piano are not necessarily "noisier" to your neighbour. The sound vibration does not apply to the wall and amplify the piano music. That what i heard from some grand owners - don't knoe ture or not, but make some sense.

Yah.. a grand feels more precious and takes up more space. It can actually double as a study table or computer desk... below can store Books and CDs... hehehe . But seriouly, taking care of the grands surely can be educated. The touch and sound.... wow drool cannot resist one lah. Anyway JPY is to our favour and treat it as promoting economy lor... ;\)
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/14/07 12:14 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pufferfish:
So tempting...

If we get a grand piano, we'll have to leave it on the lift landing outside our apartment. \:D
[/b]
Hey, you've got it wrong. Move your living and dining room furniture plus the TV to the lift landing. Your grand should never be outside of the house... \:D \:D
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/14/07 12:30 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
How about getting a grand??
[/b]
You know you are very evil right? \:D
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/14/07 12:47 AM

Clam,

Thanks for the info. I guess you are quite right about Otto-renner being the better choice. From the description in the website, the soundboard of Otto-renner is graded "AAA" as compared to Elingtion, which only has an "A".
Hope my analysis is right. :-)

Snoopycar,

I used to own a British piano (Brand: Shroud), which my dad bought for me when I was a kid. Really hated that piano because of the flat tone & heavy touch. However, it did strengthen my fingers & get me though Grade 5.

When I bought my Yamaha U1, I was initially impressed by its tone and touch. But I soon discovered that the touch is too light for me. Find it hard to play soft (pp or ppp). Tone is quite inconsistent at times. . The E-flat before middle C does not produce a full tone. Talked to some experienced tuner, and they all told me that it is due to the design, so nothing could me done about it. Perhaps, I do have a sensitive ear.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/14/07 12:58 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by NW:
Clam,

Thanks for the info. I guess you are quite right about Otto-renner being the better choice. From the description in the website, the soundboard of Otto-renner is graded "AAA" as compared to Elingtion, which only has an "A".
Hope my analysis is right. :-)

Snoopycar,

I used to own a British piano (Brand: Shroud), which my dad bought for me when I was a kid. Really hated that piano because of the flat tone & heavy touch. However, it did strengthen my fingers & get me though Grade 5.

When I bought my Yamaha U1, I was initially impressed by its tone and touch. But I soon discovered that the touch is too light for me. Find it hard to play soft (pp or ppp). Tone is quite inconsistent at times. . The E-flat before middle C does not produce a full tone. Talked to some experienced tuner, and they all told me that it is due to the design, so nothing could me done about it. Perhaps, I do have a sensitive ear. [/b]
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/14/07 01:29 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by NW:

Snoopycar,

I used to own a British piano (Brand: Shroud), which my dad bought for me when I was a kid. Really hated that piano because of the flat tone & heavy touch. However, it did strengthen my fingers & get me though Grade 5.

When I bought my Yamaha U1, I was initially impressed by its tone and touch. But I soon discovered that the touch is too light for me. Find it hard to play soft (pp or ppp). Tone is quite inconsistent at times. . The E-flat before middle C does not produce a full tone. Talked to some experienced tuner, and they all told me that it is due to the design, so nothing could me done about it. Perhaps, I do have a sensitive ear. [/b]
About the ppp playablity, quite true. Have to struggle to play pp. But did you tried to put a medium density matress behind the piano to try soften it abit?
Eb sounds less than full...hmmm could try to check if the hammer strike is centered or not and ask your tuner to voice it lor. i didn't have this, perhaps it's gotta do with the double wound strings at this note... hehehe \:\) cheers
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/14/07 01:47 AM

That was exactly what the tuner told me ... is due to the double wound strings. Is there any way to rectify this problem ?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/14/07 01:51 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by NW:
That was exactly what the tuner told me ... is due to the double wound strings. Is there any way to rectify this problem ? [/b]
Not much you can do about it. It is very hard to get even tone across the tenor break. Much depends on the scale design. Even high-end pianos that cost much much more aren't all successful at making the transition unnoticeable.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/14/07 07:09 AM

Hi NW, very interesting findings and ear observation. you know we are very piano hobbyist and like to learn more and figure out how to solve problems.... hehehe how we can solve your issue and save you $$$ or increase you options.

Usually, as the piano action is expose to humidity and wear and tear, friction creeps in, making it more difficult to play softly. mainly, it the hammer which hardens at the contact point to the string, makes light key press sounds loud. Ask your tech to "needle" it lor.

If your key press feel friction, try pressing the damper pedal and feel for any difference. Sometime, too early damper lift may cause poor pp control. Is the damper start to lift when hammer is halfway?

I know a piano player whose key is so heavy, i can't play anything. He says, he can't play anything on the new yama or kawa at the showroom - so loud...
I guess it's like, too used to something and like it.. can't change.... \:\(

corroded damper spoon affect key touch as time goes by.


May be can add some lead weight to the rear of the keys to make touch "heavier".... \:\)

Can elaborate what you mean "not-full"?
Is it softer, sounds muted, tone dies away quickly?

Well, do a comparison then. Try a new U1 at music plaza on the E & Eb and and the non-wounded neighbour to hear for any decernable big difference in timbre quality. If the showroom piano is ok, then check(or have your tech checked?):

1)Check your bridge where the Eb string pass over, is it seating properly? Is the bridge pin drill exactly to specf?

2)Check the strings spacing at the top iron frame where the string pass over before the pressure bar. This will determine the power of the hammer exert on the string. Is it off-sided?

3) is Eb unison tuned?
4) is damper felt fully lifter and not touching any strings when you hold down the Eb?

But i think it's could be the hammer alignment... but have to see to verify.

light key is not really that bad.. you can play for hours without feeling tired... hehehe
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/14/07 07:27 AM

Sorry to sounds like a tech.... hehehe

NW: strangly, my Eb didn't sound "less than full", but the E beside sound brassier.....
Let us know... we're very keen to know \:\)
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/14/07 12:29 PM

Wah snoopycar, did you design and make pianos in your previous life? All the technicalities so chim. How about conducting a course for us all? \:D
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/14/07 08:17 PM

oops, kerkerkerker.... chimilogy man...
previous life was concert pianist hehehe
just rationale thinking only.
yep, planning to become a tech in 6 years time, \:\)

Clam, where is your challen after you get the K8?
How is the K8? 200times more shiok? tone is mellow like cream?
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/16/07 11:29 AM

snoopycar, donating my challen to my mom. Still waiting for my K8 to arrive leh...why this RP take so long?? Will see if I can post pics once it gets here...
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/16/07 11:53 AM

Uncle robert is preparing the piano mah....
putting years of expertise into you new K8 will takes time. my guess is the master tech is tuning it several times, after it stabilize, then final tuning before moving to your place. Of course it is also going through a strigent QC checks by uncle Robert, checking the jack release, let-off, backcheck, maybe a little voicing - sacalee still uncrating... hehehe

hahaha.. cannot tahah aledi huh?? like bidding for COE
aaa... if your Challen needs a tuning before ORD, let snoopycar tune for you ok? hehehe
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/17/07 02:28 AM

Hi Snoopycar,

Actually, both the Eb & E sound hollow. Like Digitus said, it is due to the scale design. Leonard from Asia Piano also have similar comment.
I guess I have to live with this imperfection for the time being.

Not sure if the current U1 has such problem. Have yet to try one.

It is easier for a pianist, who used to play on a hard piano, to adapt to one which has a softer action. I used to play one that was very hard. Though it did strengthen my fingers, it was a challenge to play fast pieces. Just imagine having to play Chopin's Etude on one.

When I bought my U1 (from a friend last year), it was a breeze to play for hours (effortlessly) without feeling tired. :-)

Presently, I am still trying to overcome the difficulty of playing softer. Think it won't be very long.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/18/07 12:03 AM

hmmm, playing softly seem like an interesting topic.... just press the middle pedal lah!!! - but then, no more dynamic range .. \:\(

I'm still thinking, how soft do we have to play? What level is consider ppp enough? I just simplify it an play at 5 level, soft, midsoft, medium, medium loud and loud.
At very soft level, all touch action gotta be smooth and even to start with - quite difficult to achieve. As, probably the flange are at different tigheness. Otherwise, miss note might occur as different keys strikes at different press strength. So it means that to play ppp, both player skill(much more difficult) and mechanical plays a part. No point asking your tech to needle/shape the hammer before checking the action friction - at various friction areas.

Ai yah.. just shift your ppp level higher loh - relativity. When i try to play very soft, my face expression changes, >< like concentrating very hard.
Want to try my kawai? it's easier to pp.

Yah, the Eb n E is bichord, 2 strings at the left end of the tenor section. Sounds little bit thin. Intrestingly, my kawai is using 3 plain steels on all the tenor section.

Check out the other higher range U3 or U5, see what type of string they use? Perhaps its totally different scale design - so can't compare... \:\)

NW: So have you tried out the "Ellington" & "Otto-Renner" yet? How does it feels? Easier to ppp??
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/18/07 01:47 AM

Hi Scoopycar,

"When i try to play very soft, my face expression changes, >< like concentrating very hard."

hahaha that was so funny. Don't need to concentrate so hard. You need to relax your fingers to play soft. Start with a slow piece first. Practice makes perfect. :-)

Haven't got the time to try on the Ellingtion / Otto-Renner.

Might also consider Kawai. Any idea how much is a new K6 & K8 ?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/18/07 02:58 AM

"Might also consider Kawai. Any idea how much is a new K6 & K8 ?"

You must get a "grand action" piano for your ppp requirements \:\) I recommend you the SK-2 !! just kidding
I haven't any piano to think of at the moment. But i've tried a schimmel and kawai grand with higher intertia touch - which you definitely can play ppp.

Happy searching....
Posted by: pufferfish

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/18/07 04:33 AM

Not a grand, but the search is OVER!!! YIPPEE!!! \:D



Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/18/07 05:37 AM

Fine instrument choice!!
Is that a K25 ??

nice carpet......
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/18/07 11:46 AM

pufferfish: wah, you finally got your piano! Very nice indeed. Looks like you got the K3? I'm sure you'll enjoy the piano.

NW: new K6 is about $11K+ and new K8 is about $12K+. They had this anniversary offer when I bought the K8 so I paid $11K+ for the K8. I think the offer is still on.

snoopycar: you are always promoting and encouraging people to get the grand piano - when will it be your turn to get one?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/18/07 06:57 PM

notice the left 3 notes of the tenor section are bichords?

Clam: haha. hold on... i'm saving up $$ to buy one - really. To ramp up my saving rate, i've sold my car last evening... now we're talking.. \:\)
No more car from May, left my 2 "cars"(legs). Changing to the most popular car called "BMW", Bus-Mrt-Walking... hehehe Buying a Grand is like a dream of my life, car no more important.

cheers
Posted by: pufferfish

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/19/07 10:27 AM

Yup, it's a K-3.

Clam, has your K-8 arrived yet? Think you booked it about 2 weeks ago, around the time of the Yamaha Fair?

Snoopycar, what does having bichords there mean?
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/19/07 11:57 AM

yah lah, snoopycar, what are bichords? Sounds like a person with two vocal cords. Looks like you have taken the first step towards getting a grand! Way to go!

pufferfish, good choice in getting a K3. Like I said, I was blown away by the sound of the K3 during my first visit to Robert Piano while someone was playing a few pieces on it. My K8 should be on the way this week... \:\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/19/07 06:45 PM

aiyayaya.. bichord is the twin stirngs pairs which are copper wound loh..

At the tenor to treble, they are usually triple plain steel strings strung per note, sorri to be cheim.. hehehe not cheim

Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/19/07 07:04 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by NW:
Hi Scoopycar,

"When i try to play very soft, my face expression changes, >< like concentrating very hard."

hahaha that was so funny. Don't need to concentrate so hard. You need to relax your fingers to play soft. Start with a slow piece first. Practice makes perfect. :-)

Haven't got the time to try on the Ellingtion / Otto-Renner.

Might also consider Kawai. Any idea how much is a new K6 & K8 ? [/b]
There's a way to make the touch harder. That's to increase the hammer return spring tension. But for U1, the retaining chord is quite fragile and breaks - even at normal spring rate.

Have you check you action for any broken spring retainer chord? Mine has 8 broken chord, have fix all. When the chord breaks, the hammer return spring cannot work - like lost of gravity pull. Just a gentle touch on the key can launch the hammer to the string and stikes louder than other keys.... another cheimilogy...
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/20/07 01:17 AM

Scoopycar: Thanks for the info. Will get the tuner to check it out too.

Wow, did you pay a lot for the repair ? You certainly know a lot about the piano. So brilliant.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/20/07 04:11 AM

Yes, piano has become my hobby and interest.
Actually, i didn't pay alot for the repairs(DIY you can too).
I'm a piano tech "undergrad" leh \:\)
and freelance tuner tech - hehehe.

Instead of the silk cord, i use a similiar material and special glue.

It's not too difficult. The cord is a 0.5mm thick string thread which hook onto the return spring. Just scrap off the old broken cord, cut the cord to length, glue it onto the groove on the hammer flange, making sure the triangle shape formed is same as the others, about 10mm from the flange.
Remember to align the hammer to strike the sting exactly on target onto the old wear groove.

I can attach a pic to show you where this part is later - if you're keen \:\)

Hi all: i post at the adult beginner about what Grade stardard is the A. Dvorak Humoresque? Didn't get many response ....

Do you know? It's a very nice piece, you know?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/20/07 09:44 AM

Hi NW, the cord looks like this.

w800i macro very good hor?

oh no, 2 broken again ..... sian...


I just remember something about ppp playablity.
Can you try this: Depress the damper pedal and play pp. Is it much easier? If so there is a different using and not using damper.
It can be adjusted by damper lift timing and spring rate. It's much easier to adjust the grand lift time by a set screw. But you'd have be bent the damper spoon for the upright.
Another thing. friction have creep up at your damper piviot or felt lining. hehehe

cheers
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/20/07 12:38 PM

looking at the technicalities and fragility of piano internals which most of us have no idea about, maybe we should all just use Clavinovas... :p
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/21/07 12:57 AM

Scoppycar:

My previous teacher doesn't allow me to use the damper pedal when playing pp ... she said it is cheating. Unless it is stated una corda, the use of soft pedal is permitted.

Does anyone here has any comment about this ?

I supposed the original version of "Humoresque" by Dvorak is about Grade 7 standard.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/21/07 06:56 AM

Hi NW, actually i meant to test the capability of your U1 pp ability by separating the friction of the damper lift. not play a whole piece with damper depress lah....

1 observation i made is, if damper friction not good, at the end of your keypress, you keypress speed(slow pp speed) get distrupted by the damper friction, and slows down too much, causing hammer to miss the stings.

If other regulations are within specf, meaning not other bad frictions like sticky hammer butt leather.., by isolating separate section of the action, in this case, the damper lift timing and friction, we can determine what's the main contributing culprit. The keypress transition from 0mm to 10mm should be as smooth as possible.

Many a times, tech were too quick to fault the hammer hardness too soon before making proper diagnostic..... sounds cheim again? hehehe

So to summarize, there seems to be 2 type of pp problem.
1) hammer is so hard, a gentle keypress cause a higher than expected volume
2) hammer are ok, but poor action cause pp to be difficult. Something like when you press pp, hammer didn't hit, so you try harder to overcome the friction, then hammer stroke becomes too fast...

I'm sure yamaha action is great(dynamic may not best, but much better than many other no brands) and you ppp problem can be solved... soon.


Wow... humoresque is grade 7? i can't believe it :0
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/23/07 10:48 AM

Scoopycar:

I first learned "Humoresque" (edited version)when I was Grade 3 or 4.

However, the technical difficulty of the original score is more challenging.
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/28/07 11:37 AM

Yipee....my K8 is finally here! And I'm having lots of fun "warming" it up... \:D \:D
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 04/28/07 05:53 PM

waoh... careful don't overheat ok... hehehe
caress the keyboard..... make the piano sing for you. don't let TV distract your new love... kerkerker...

as usual, pictures pls... take one with you pretend to be seriously playing, another with a funny face with the "v" sign, ok?

how's the sound in you home, very "song"?

cheers
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/06/07 05:00 AM

I think something is wrong with my K8. Sometimes, when I press a key, there is no reaction. The hammer just doesn't want to strike the string. Digitus, do you have this problem when it first came?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/06/07 06:36 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by clam:
I think something is wrong with my K8. Sometimes, when I press a key, there is no reaction. The hammer just doesn't want to strike the string. Digitus, do you have this problem when it first came? [/b]
It depends on how you pressed the key. If you press it very slowly and softly the hammer will not strike the string. It's because you didn't impart enough velocity to the hammer for it to strike the string. When you strike a key you are actually indirectly throwing the hammer at the strings.

It's useful to find out more about how an upright piano action works. Here is one link I found when I did a Google search on "upright piano action": http://www.bluebookofpianos.com/acton.htm. If you remove the music stand and the panel behind it you can see what the action is doing.

If this is happening to only one or two notes then you have a problem with poor regulation. This would be highly unlikely because Kawai pianos are well-prepped before they leave the factory.

If you are getting this while trying to play pp then you are simply not striking the keys hard enough. Modern pianos have big voices, particularly top-end uprights like the K8. They are designed to project into large spaces, so they sound very loud in Singapore's small flats.

Some people say that its difficult to play pp on Kawais (and other pianos) but that's all relative. The dynamic range between ff and pp is good. Its just that the piano projects more. So you may have to attenuate the piano's volume. The easiest way to do this is what snoopycar does - put a foam mattress between the back of the piano and the wall! The other way is to voice the hammers down by needling them. But that costs money, and you really need a good tech to do it otherwise you will get uneven tone.
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/06/07 11:48 AM

Digitus: I did not deliberately press the key slowly or lightly (as in pp) - just normally. It's like the first time I press the key, it just kind of "sinks" in and there is no sound. I end up pressing it again but a little harder and of course, by then, the hammer would strike the string. It's mostly in the right hand keys and it is random so it is difficult to reproduce the problem. It happens when I am playing a song but if I purposely press a key just to test it, chances are that the problem will not surface. Hope I did not end up with a lemon after paying a fortune for this. I'll call RP and ask them. Thanks.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/06/07 01:50 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by clam:
Digitus: I did not deliberately press the key slowly or lightly (as in pp) - just normally. It's like the first time I press the key, it just kind of "sinks" in and there is no sound. I end up pressing it again but a little harder and of course, by then, the hammer would strike the string. It's mostly in the right hand keys and it is random so it is difficult to reproduce the problem. It happens when I am playing a song but if I purposely press a key just to test it, chances are that the problem will not surface. Hope I did not end up with a lemon after paying a fortune for this. I'll call RP and ask them. Thanks. [/b]
Were you trying to play softly? If this happens on only one side of the keyboard then you may have a regulation problem. You are entitled to 3 free tunings in the first year. You should already have done the first one after delivery of the piano. If not call the Kawai service department and arrange for one. Then show the piano tech what you are experiencing.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/07/07 03:25 AM

oops, i hope it's not a sticky jack which fail to reset properly after a keypress.

Clam: did you turn on the heater ???? Open the bottom cover slightly, and feel if it's warm.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/07/07 04:08 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
oops, i hope it's not a sticky jack which fail to reset properly after a keypress.

Clam: did you turn on the heater ???? Open the bottom cover slightly, and feel if it's warm. [/b]
Good point. The heater must be left on 24x7x365.
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/07/07 04:30 AM

And, make sure it falls between 42-65% relative humidity with no more than 10% different.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/07/07 07:23 AM

Some actions are sensitive to humidity change. When i tune older pianos, actions starts to get sticky and stuck as i tune. Owner says, it's was ok before you came... imagine, hammer doesn't return, jack doesn't reset... Then i request to turn on the aircon, come back an 1.5 hr later, and starts to tune - no more sticky action. (oops, i'm a part-time tuner, \:\) hehehe) Anyway, that's an old old piano.

Kawai quality shouldn't be a problem. BTW, clam, do you have a humidity meter? Can buy from sim lim tower or DIY store. Hook it in the piano, below the top cover. Check out the readings lor.
(hope you're not living at the sentosa bunglow with the balcony window open... hiakhiakhiak..)
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/07/07 11:02 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jay:
And, make sure it falls between 42-65% relative humidity with no more than 10% different. [/b]
Not easy to do in Singapore, unless you put the piano in a climate-controlled room. :p
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/07/07 11:43 AM

Thanks for all the advise and concern...I'm feeling a little desperate and frustrated. The technician at RP said the earliest time they could tune is 2 weeks because of tight schedules. The heater is always on and I can feel it's quite warm. I'll go get a hudimity meter and see what happens. My aircon at the living room where the piano is is on in the day time but off at night when I get home. Could that contribute to the problem?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/07/07 01:29 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by clam:
Thanks for all the advise and concern...I'm feeling a little desperate and frustrated. The technician at RP said the earliest time they could tune is 2 weeks because of tight schedules. The heater is always on and I can feel it's quite warm. I'll go get a hudimity meter and see what happens. My aircon at the living room where the piano is is on in the day time but off at night when I get home. Could that contribute to the problem? [/b]
I can imagine how you might feel, but don't despair. The problem, if there is one, is most likely fixable.

When did you notice this thing happening?

You should get a digital hygro thermometer that records the daily minimum and maximum temperature and humidity. I got mine from Home Fix. There are different models. Mine is some obscure brand made in China, doesn't even show on the case! Costs a few bucks.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/07/07 07:03 PM

I just thought of it. The K8 is Millenium3 action, all fibre reinforce plastic parts - something like that. Humidity could not have afftected the flange tighteness, sorry...
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/08/07 08:21 PM

clam: it's ok, take it easy.. wait for the the doctor to take a look lor - doc's very busy hor?
push him a bit lah! Tell him you're very anxious.
(did you over rev the engine? told you to take it easy right? pls don't rev over 4000rpm for first 1000km. hehehe)

for me, i can't wait. i'll open up the front panel, look at the mechanism to observe what's going on inside. i might take a pic to document it, but i won't touch the action as it's under warranty ...
Posted by: wgol24

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/11/07 01:15 PM

Hi All,

I'm new here \:\) Seeing that there's a "singapore" thread here, I thought if any of you may be kind enough to offer me some advice.

Basically, I've narrowed down my search to Yamaha U1 Silent piano. However, there is also the cheaper U1J silent model, but I'm hesitant which to choose?

I know U1J is made in Indonesia, but the price difference between U1J and U1 is like some S$2.5K, which is quite significant. Does this mean that the U1 is "easier" to maintain for the Singapore weather? Why is there such a big difference? What's the difference anyway?

My concern is, I don't want to go for the cheaper one, if the more expensive model is actuallhy better in terms of long term investment.

Any advice or comments would be appreciated!

Thanks in advance!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/12/07 07:15 PM

Hi wgol24, there's some video of piano making by yamaha japan. try to navigate to the Making of an upright video ....

http://www.yamaha-kakegawa.com/

I heard from yami salesman that after the U1J is manufacture at indo plant, it's ship back to japan for assembly. I think the difference in price is due to labour saving, but it still has to pass japan QC. - Just like the thai made altis compare with last time corolla..(sorry different, altis is fully made in thai) hehehe main difference is the level of meticulous craftman involved.

If i wanted to buy a known good piano design like U1, i'd buy japan U1(strickly answering your question with my humble opinion).

I'm quite sure that the higher price is worth it in the long term, like 20~30 years. Meaning 20~30 yrs later, a U1 should perform well mechanically and acoustically.

cheers
Posted by: wgol24

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/12/07 11:54 PM

Wow thanks alot snoopycar!! That was very helpful info! The video was very interesting and educational!

I myself am leaning towards U1 a bit more, but was curious how close the U1J compares (i.e. if comparable in terms of "investment", then would go for the cheaper U1J :p )

Now I'm just waiting for the Great Singapore Sale to start and then buy it before 1 July (before 7% GST kicks in) :p

Cheers
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/14/07 11:31 AM

Digitus,snoopycar: Thanks for the consolation. Doctor coming down tomorrow (finally!) Told him if he cannot fix it, I want a refund and I'll go get myself a Yamaha. That should give him enough pressure to fix it. Will update you guys on the diagnosis. On top of it, I find that the base is a little "dull" like it sounded with a thud, especially those nearer to the middle C.

To answer your question, Digitus, I noticed the problem since day one actually. Will visit HomeFix these couple of days.

Snoopycar: I did open up but everything looks normal leh...
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/14/07 09:39 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Hi wgol24, there's some video of piano making by yamaha japan. try to navigate to the Making of an upright video ....

http://www.yamaha-kakegawa.com/

I heard from yami salesman that after the U1J is manufacture at indo plant, it's ship back to japan for assembly. I think the difference in price is due to labour saving, but it still has to pass japan QC. - Just like the thai made altis compare with last time corolla..(sorry different, altis is fully made in thai) hehehe main difference is the level of meticulous craftman involved.cheers [/b]
Nice link....

On the other hand, it doesn't make sense for Yamaha to shipped their piano from Indonesia back to Japan and re-export. It is too costly. It will be cheaper to buy ait-tickets and sent out their QC officers to their plants outside Japan. I don't hear Yamaha America or China shipped their piano back to Japan and re-export. The salesman must be a good script writer. All of their pianos will come from where it is assemble. Definetly there will be QC but it will be done at the plant where it is assemble. As for certain critical piano parts coming from Japan to plants outside Japan, that would be more logical.

Regards..
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/14/07 09:44 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by wgol24:
I myself am leaning towards U1 a bit more, but was curious how close the U1J compares (i.e. if comparable in terms of "investment", then would go for the cheaper U1J :p )Cheers [/b]
IMO, Japan against the rest of the world (against its plants outside Japan), the Japanese origin is far better in quality workmanship.
On the other hand, U1 is the best of Japanese pianos I have played over the years.

Regards.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/14/07 11:34 PM

Jay, thanks for highlighting. I'm more incline to think what the salesman said about shipping back is shipping the parts back to assemble in japan. Not sure, as i didnt ask deeper.. hehehe. Yah, it doesnt make sense to ship the whole piano back, very far man...

Anyway, who has more accurate idea on what's the diff of a U1(indo) and U1(Japan), pls contribute, thanks. Very interesting in view of economics wise. Japan factory has so much robots and automated assembly line already... i guess yamaha is trying to further reduce cost so that U1(design) can be more affordable to a larger consumer.

Where's everybody? Busy practising hard?
What's on the menu? I trying the Bach French suite V Gigue. Only manage the 1st part half-bucket...
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/15/07 12:09 PM

Well, the doctor came and went and he couldn't detect the problem - which was what I expected. Mmm...maybe it's the way I hit the keys but I never had this problem with my previous Challen and Yamaha pianos. Even my wife had the same experience so it's not just me. The doctor said to monitor for next couple of weeks and see if problem still present, then to call him.

wah snoopycar, your pieces are always so challenging one. I've completed Moonlight Sonata (Movement 1) and moving on to Fur Elise.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/16/07 09:51 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by clam:
Well, the doctor came and went and he couldn't detect the problem - which was what I expected. Mmm...maybe it's the way I hit the keys but I never had this problem with my previous Challen and Yamaha pianos. Even my wife had the same experience so it's not just me. The doctor said to monitor for next couple of weeks and see if problem still present, then to call him.

wah snoopycar, your pieces are always so challenging one. I've completed Moonlight Sonata (Movement 1) and moving on to Fur Elise. [/b]
Maybe your piano is scare of the doctor and decided to be "goodboy"... hehehe

The trouble have to be repeatable for the doc to solve. Was it certain part of the sonata? or certain trill? Was it a first note or 2nd strike of the same note? take notice of these and you might find the bug.

Different thing happen to my U1 too during damper release and press time, in betweem chord change. The bass note will double strike. manage to solve by adjusting the action.

Clam, if your challen needs tuning, can i render my humble tuning service to you? Thks. At the same time i could take a look and diagnose your little bug(don't worry, no dismatling involve).

Yah, this Gigue is indeed challenging. But might be piece-of-cake to others experts. It very ticklish melody is stuck in my mind, every during my sleep! I have to persevere..... and complete it, then i can rest for a month. My sight reading is not-good, so i'm learning it by small bite-size...... yum yum yum, crunch crunch crunch \:\)

Fur elise, hmmmm very nice. Playing both parts brings time back to the Beethoven days. I seeing scene of 2 long distance lovers, writing letters to each others, expressing their feelings, raining evenings...... when will i see thee again... #:^D just kidding
Posted by: wgol24

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/19/07 05:09 AM

Jay, thanks for your opinions on the U1. I have made up my mind to go for the U1-Silent \:\)

clam - isn't moonlight sonata much more challenging than fur elise?? :|

I've been playing Chopin's nocturne Op. 55 no. 1 (in F minor) these days but finding it hard to get motivation to master it on my old old steinberg :s just gotta have to wait for my U1-silent \:D
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 05/29/07 10:15 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by wgol24:
Jay, thanks for your opinions on the U1. I have made up my mind to go for the U1-Silent \:\)

clam - isn't moonlight sonata much more challenging than fur elise?? :|

I've been playing Chopin's nocturne Op. 55 no. 1 (in F minor) these days but finding it hard to get motivation to master it on my old old steinberg :s just gotta have to wait for my U1-silent \:D [/b]
wgol24: So... have the slient piano arrive - does it comes with strings??? Don't feel shy to announce your piano house warming party... hehehe

clam: fur elise practise.. hows the progress? completed the 2nd part?? Have you run-in the K8 already - all the 8 cylinders are vrooming great?

Wonder where's everybody again. Is there another piano forum ? Well let's keep posting and keep the thread alive with humour, information, and updates on piano mechanism, piano learning progress, new song, new recordings(someone bought a new sound recorder right?) and anything about pianos \:\)

cheers
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/02/07 04:15 AM

Hey guys, I've been away from PW for quite sometime. I hope you all still remember me \:\) .
I have a big news to share today. I bought a Kawai GM10LE! It was made in Japan instead of Indonesia. It will be delivered on 23 Jun. Will post the delivery pics \:\) .
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/02/07 04:23 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by clam:
Well, the doctor came and went and he couldn't detect the problem - which was what I expected. Mmm...maybe it's the way I hit the keys but I never had this problem with my previous Challen and Yamaha pianos. Even my wife had the same experience so it's not just me. The doctor said to monitor for next couple of weeks and see if problem still present, then to call him.
[/b]
Any updates?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/02/07 09:06 AM

jarjar: Wow!! That's definitely a right choice!
What were the plus points that made you decided?
Tone, touch, value for money..... congrads \:\)

yah clam: any updates? piano cured itself?
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/02/07 11:58 AM

Hi snoopycar, I guess for my budget, I could only get a small grand if I want a new one. So between Yamaha GB1 and Kawai GM10, I prefer the Kawai. The GM10 of cause seems like nothing compares to the Shigeru Kawai SK2 that is just beside it but i think it beats the other grands in the same range. I also love the touch. I'm quite satisfy with the dynamics it gives. For the tone, it is rather mellow (which I like) and dim because still new. I can see potential in it.
I've tried many used grands like Kawai RX, GS range, Yamaha C3 and even a C7 but I still go back to this.
Posted by: RichterForever

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/03/07 11:37 AM

Just had the pleasure of trying out the Yamaha S4 and I must say it was really really sweet. Until today I thought the Kawai SKs were the sweetest Japanese pianos but I must say after today that the S4 to me was quite the superior piano. Of course S4 is substantially more expensive than the equivalent sized SK.

Also tried the Brodmann 187 at Pianoman's at Bt Timah Plaza. I would recommend this to anyone in the market for a grand. The action was firm which is typical for an european piano. It was the sweet singing voice that really blew me away. The sustain was full and prolonged. I am really excited about this piano but alas I recently bought another one so this will have to wait. This is a Viennese company which ships all the parts from europe to their factory in China for assembly. The piano looks very well finished and the real attraction is the price. I was quoted $16K odd for this beauty. If you are looking for a new piano, please do yourself a favour and try the Brodmann.
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/03/07 12:52 PM

Agree that the Yamaha S4 and S6 are pretty impressive pianos - too bad for the price! For that money I can get a very very good German grand. I was pretty impressed with the SK-6 I tried recently...quite a different animal from its smaller cousins. A smoother action and much more mellow tone overall. I would not rate it a worse piano compared to the Yamaha S6 - just a different type of piano.

Also agree with the assessment of Brodmann, which I think has a beautiful, mellow and dark tone, not typically found in Chinese pianos. At the other end of the tonal spectrum is the Hailun/Wendl and Lung, which is much brighter, especially in the treble - but in a good, sustaining way. Well worth considering for someone whose budget is around $15K

Richterforever...have you tried playing a Sauter before? My piano search lasted 8 months and that's what I eventually ended up with. Never looked back since. Of course, its in a different price range from the Chinese pianos, but comparably priced to the S series Yamahas. I'd dare say, it was truly worth the price...with a completely unique and highly varied tonal response. Not to mention the fantastic dealer service from Alvin. Highly recommended to try, if just for the experience.
Posted by: RichterForever

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/04/07 12:33 AM

Wzkit, I have heard that the Sauter is a great piano but never knew that there was a dealer in SIngapore. Where is Alvin's shop? Must have cost you close to a 100K. Would like to try that too. Will also go and try the Seiler at Cristofori one of these days. Unfortunately, the SKs, S4, S6, Seiler and Sauter are way beyond my price range. Is there a Bluthner dealer in Singapre? Heard it once in the UK and it had such a lovely tone. I really like the action and tone of the German pianos but they are priced at a level I won't even consider which is why I think the Brodmann is a fantastic deal as it feels and sounds like a good German piano. I also tried a used Ibach 7' at Harvest and found that it also had a lovely tune but that the regulation felt quite worn and not so precise.
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/04/07 12:48 AM

Richterforever..don't worry, I didn't pay 100K for my piano. Far from that. Expensive, but not at that level. Alvin's shop (Raffles Piano)is located just outside the box office at Victoria Concert Hall. Because its a one man operation and he has to teach and tune as well, he's only open on Thursdays and Friday evenings. I think its best to call him to make an appointment if you want to visit. Right now there's only 3 uprights and a small baby grand (160 Alpha) in the showroom...but believe me, it is the most amazing baby grand of that size I have seen, beating many many 6 footers on the market.

Bluthner is carried by Robert Piano. There is a 6 foot grand at the Centrepoint showroom, which unfortunately is really in need of some serious voicing and regulation. I don't believe it is representative of the make in general.

I tried that very same Ibach you are talking about, and agree with your assessment. Found the hammers really too bright, so some serious deep needling is needed there. But the sustain is great and with lots of work, i think there's much potential in that piano. I love Ibachs too - did quite a few recordings on them in my NUS days. They have the nicest, purest treble all round, when well voiced. But for bass, I think few pianos beat the Sauter or Shigeru Kawais. Just my opinion.
Posted by: RichterForever

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/04/07 09:51 AM

Will be at VCH to catch Cyprien Katsaris on 29 June. May pop into the shop for a taste of the Sauter. Thanks Wzkit.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/05/07 09:54 AM

wow..... that's fantastic!!!
jarjar, i also feels the GM10 is best price/tone price range. i'm so tempted to get one too....
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/09/07 12:43 PM

Hi, i'm new here. Nice meeting all of you here.
I was reading the previous page of buying 1st piano...I think the new SK touch is superb...i've tried that.The keys makes my fingers "bounce"!!!

Jar Jar...
Ur Gm10 need to be season....play oftenly once you get your piano. \:\)
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/10/07 09:31 AM

Hi Snoopycar, go get one quick \:\) .

Hi Deloris, that's what the dealer told me also. He said if I play daily, it will get seasoned in about 7-8 months' time and the sound will be better. I love the SK's touch and sound too but the price doesn't fit me. Bleh..
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/10/07 12:09 PM

I like the "bouncy" feeling of the SK-3's action too - makes it really easy to execute runs...and makes you a better pianist than you actually are! The downside however is that it might be slightly more difficult to play ultra pianissimo.;

Interestingly, I found the SK-6's action to be less bouncy and more sensitive..more similar to my Sauter for example. Beautiful instrument!
Posted by: ERWANDY

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/11/07 01:14 PM

Hi jarjar..hope you still remember me, congratulation on your new GM10!! excellent choice. I assumed u had trade in ur 126 Challen with a good price. Well I'm still stick with my 1975 U1,hopefully for a long time.."crossfinger" lol...since my yammy tone getting brighter and brighter by day. I went to "RC piano" last weekend..gave test drive on some of the uprights and some of the.... "kawai grands"..hehe..and the Shigeru..wow..beautiful beast..and i very honoured given to try one for the first time in my life( after reading soo much outstanding comment about it)..beautiful mellow and deep tone and the action ..flawless..tone is far far from brighty tone of yammies..U had made a wise choice jarjar..congratulation again. Hopefully it would be one of my next piano (perhaps when i reach 55 and take all my KWSP money for it..haha)


ps/: very friendly and charming dealer at RC btw..

:3hearts:
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/11/07 09:46 PM

Moderator, we have a small request. Can the thread title change to

Adult Beginner in Singapore/Malaysia: Buying First Piano


thanks hehehe .....
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/12/07 06:53 AM

Hi Erwandy, of cause I remember you. Well, if you happened to be in RC piano and tried out the Shigeru kawai, the GM-10 that is at the right most next to it is the one I bought. Hehe..it will only be delivered to me on 23 June so I guess it is still there while you were there. Have you tried it? I sold my Challen to my colleague. Well, I lost about 3k on that 10 month's old piano \:\( . Lol, I guess the SK won't be at this price when you are 55 year-old.
Posted by: ERWANDY

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/12/07 10:38 AM

Yes jarjar, I was in KL for 3days last weekend, visiting my old friend. Besides i get a chance to see more piano brand from many top piano dealer in town such as vienna music (dealer of challen and c.steinberg) and RC piano(kawai's). I missed a chance to visit Wagner piano near the berjaya t.s since it was closed the day i visited due to certain reason (I really eager to try the petrof series). And i also missed to visit yamaha near the subang jaya due (due to my limited time). " Vienna music" appears to hv one refurbished Steinways and sons grand.. I finally get to try one..beautiful singing tone.

When i was at the RC,there are 3 grands at the show room, and one of them are marked "sold" on top of it and its GM10,..hmmm It was just my guess, it's the one U bought since you always mentioned about "RC piano" in your previous thread..and its happened to be true (after i was told by the charming dealer, she is one of pianoworld member too..hehe)..First i tried the RX, then the GM10 and finally the shigeru. The truth is, (with my untrained ears and skills) i can't find any different between the RX and GM10, but one thing for sure, both are excellent sound and action..far-far more better than grand tht i tried bfor. I was told by the dealer that some people claimed the RX action is heavier than GM10 (beside the "heavier" money u have to put for the RX..lol) To me, both action are flawless..the the shigeru..aahhhhhhhh..Im speechless..im in heaven..haha.. I was told the shigeru is fresh..newly unpacked from the crater..I also tried the K3 upright and i love it..

It was a great experience for me to try many kinds of piano in KL.. and I defenitely will come back next time....

I wish u many many years of enjoyment with ur GM10..
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/12/07 11:45 AM

piano is so "addictive"....... i need to hear the sound of piano all day..... hehehe
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/13/07 07:14 AM

Hi Erwandy, glad to hear you have a great time in KL. Wagner has a store in berjaya times square? I dind't know that. I've treid the Petrof 6 ft grand in the SS2 showroom and not very impressed with it and the price is rocket high. Actually, there is a Yamaha GB1 and Kawai GE30 in Chamber Music at 4th floor, Sungai Wang plaza. I've tried the GB1 and it is an excellent piano too.

Yes the SKII is fresh, just opened 2 week before. They had a SK III before but sold already. Personally I think this SKII is better than the SKIII that I tried b4. They used to have 2 RX there but 1 went for exam. That RX is much different than the one in the showroom now probably because it has been seasoned. I personally feel that GM10's touch is heavier than the RX2. Maybe that RX2 has not been regulated. Anyway that RX2 is selling RM20k more expensive than the GM10 which I don't see the reason of spending RM20k more for it. The GE30 would be a better choice.
Posted by: sping

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/13/07 10:33 PM

Hi to all here :-)
I'am thinking of buying my first acoustic piano (currently using a digital) and would like to get some advise from the experts here.
For those of you who own an acoustic piano, what is the maintenance cost like? I know that it has to be tuned every half a year, so what's the average cost per tuning?
Also, does the heater and dehumidifier use a lot of electricity? How much more in electrical bills per month do you pay for these?
Thanks!
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/14/07 02:44 AM

Hi Erwandy,
Glad to know that you have tried the SK II too. Wow...How i wish i got a chance to own that. The price is just like the Millenium 3 action..........SUPERB!!!!!!!!! \:\(
You describe Jess as CHARMING??? Wow....i hope after she read your message she will not ROTFL. \:\)

The RX is very bright. Maybe it is big. However, the SKII is same size as the RX 2. The sound of SKII is just nice.

Hmmm...maybe we should have a meet up or we should have a "little concert" between ourself. I think it will be GREAT.
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/14/07 05:13 AM

sping....
Basic maintenance cost - acoustic piano varies from country to country. But here is what I have gathered over the years.

1) Tuning ~ SGD35-SGD55 per/session (ideally twice in a year)
2) Regulation ~ SGD140-SGD210 per/session (perform once every 2-3 years or when needed), excluding replacement of parts, if needed.

Heater. I don't think it uses a lot of electricity as the heating rod usually ~ 25-45watts.

Dehumidifier. It depends to the environment. If is constantly humid, it will keep runing non-stop. I am sure it will cost you some $$$. At the same time it will bring the room temperature up, making it warm. Also, you will need to make sure the water bucket is not full or it will stop operating. Thus, you will have to remove the water several times a day.

Air-Con. This is best method (for humid country) to maintain a good RH. But, it will cost you a bomb $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on your bill \:D .

Regards
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/14/07 06:00 AM

Hi guys, just a update. I have memorize the Bach french suite V Gigue after 4 weeks, but 80% speed only. Now i can relax for another week till i take up another challange.. hehehe

Tuning frequency? Play A2,A3,A4,A4,A6 with cell phone to your tuner, he places his ETD on the ear piece, and determing if pitch have drop or not.. hehehe.

In reality, tuning frequency depends on how much pre tuning the piano has gone through before sales and alot of factors. Let say the piano has "run-in" and stabilize, it's usually 9~12mth before some notes here and there starts to twang or sounds out of tune. If the player is very sensitive and decerning, then tuning frequency increase... even more if he/she plays piano concerto everyday... haha

Here in the tropics, a 25W heater should suffice.
Posted by: wgol24

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/14/07 10:35 AM

Hi guys, I was told that my new Yamaha piano is "factory tuned" but when it arrived, the notes are quite 'wobbly' and it is certainly out of tune. Some keys also twang quite a bit. Anyone has any idea if this is normal? Hopefully all these will be rectified after the 1st tuning... :s
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/14/07 10:53 AM

wgol24, the tune will out after the piano movement while being delivered to you. You should tune the piano 3 or 4 weeks after the delivery.
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/14/07 11:55 AM

You should also get an experienced person to tune your piano. I had the same problem with my U1, after it was tuned by someone who claimed to have many years of experience. That was my greatest regret !

Don't know what he did ... the feel or action of the piano became different and uneven, which makes it difficult to play.
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/14/07 09:25 PM

wgol..
All pianos are prepped before shipping. High quality manufacturers spent more hours on prepping their pianos before leaving the factory. Thus when they arrive at the showroom, these pianos might need just a little tweaking.

Although the pianos are prepped in the factory bare in mind that the RH in the factory and where the piano ended up is totally different. Thus, wood, felt, leather & etc react to humidity and change. As a result, the piano which was prepped at the factory will be off.

It is very important to make sure that the piano is prep properly before delivery to your house. It is the responsibility of the dealer to make sure these are done. Some dealers will do it some don't because it is very time consuming ($$$). Most of the time they rather deliver it from the box and give you maybe 2-3 free tunings.

Prep includes tunings, regulation & voicing
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/16/07 01:39 AM

Hey SnoopyCar.......

Congratulation on your new song!!!! I'm so envy you can memorized the song. I'm soooooooooo weak in memorizing song.....specially Classical work. \:\(
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/16/07 09:50 AM

Oh thankz. At first, i didn't think i can do it. I downloaded the music sheet and couldn't play a few bars. I skip it for a few weeks. I listen to recordings.. save it on my cellphone, listen to it during lunch time and tea breaks. Then i go home after work to "work" on the piece slowly, bar by bar... try lor. This piece is catchy like a classical pop, nicest Cmajor song i know so far. Try to play it Deloris :-), it's free you know..... hehehe

http://www.clareyeo.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZoH57s2IxU&mode=related&search=
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/16/07 10:09 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by NW:
You should also get an experienced person to tune your piano. I had the same problem with my U1, after it was tuned by someone who claimed to have many years of experience. That was my greatest regret !

Don't know what he did ... the feel or action of the piano became different and uneven, which makes it difficult to play. [/b]
1)Well, it's gotta do with tuning pin-setting. Piano tuning is different from tuning guitar. The pin has to rotate CW then CCW while hitting the key moderately hard to equalize all the forces.

2)if the let-off is and backcheck is not set equal, each keys feels differnt from others, not good....

no need to regret, no damage done... maybe some$$ flew away. So did you manage to find a good tuner tech to fix the problems?
I tuned and regulate my U1 myself. quite satisfying. What's your review of your U1, share leh..... I still can't get tired of it. Although it's not mellow, powerfully clear, little harsh, bearable, but distintively yamaha sound. Key touch is responsive, not too light, not disconnected. Definetly not regrets...

cheers
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/16/07 01:58 PM

Erm ... sorry guys. Didn't mean to intrude.

What's the market rate for a classical piano teacher for adult learner? He or she will have to come to my place.

Cheers.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/16/07 07:53 PM

Which location, time available?
I can check for you. My cousin is a private piano teacher :-)
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/17/07 01:08 AM

Weekends, CCK/Yew Tee area, 5 minutes walk from MRT if not driving. Cheers.
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/17/07 01:16 AM

Artemov,
Have you decided on your piano?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/17/07 09:58 AM

Sale Sale Sale !!

Posted by: wgol24

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/17/07 11:03 AM

Thanks guys for the assurance. Now I feel a bit better with more hopes that things will be fixed by the 1st tuning. However, to my dismay, I also discovered that the silent unit is not able to play any demo songs, or let me select Hall1/Hall2/Room mode. I called them and was told it 'should be fixed' too on my 1st tuning. sigh. I guess I just gotta wait ...
Posted by: wgol24

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/17/07 11:06 AM

By the way, how do I know if my piano has been 'prepped'? How can I tell?
Posted by: wgol24

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/17/07 11:10 AM

OMG! Just realised that my last post was the 500th post of this thread! \:D woo-hoo~~ *dance a little dance*
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/17/07 11:11 AM

Scoopycar,

My last tuning was done last October. Tone is getting a bit flat nowadays. Guess it's time for maintenance.

Does regulation actualy improve the action/touch of the piano ? Do you know of any qualified technician who is good in tuning & regulating Yamaha piano ?
Posted by: TTSHE

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/17/07 01:36 PM

Hi everybody, this is my first post. Nice to meet everybody here. \:\)

I am intend to buy a second hand piano for my own. Try to pick up my hobby again. I hope you guys may be can help me to clear my doubt which I am quite confuse.

I would like to buy a Yamaha or Kawai exam piano. For Yamaha, I am aiming for U1. Not familiar of Kawai so haven't decide in which model. I just wonder how are we going to check the age of the piano through their serial no. Is there a website for me to refer to? Which Kawai piano you guys will recommend to me? Why there is a U1J or U1H, are there any different from U1?

I think I should ask a piano technician to go and view with me. Does anyone can recommand to me? How about their charges?

Thanks all for your reply. Hope to hear from you soon.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/17/07 07:17 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by wgol24:
OMG! Just realised that my last post was the 500th post of this thread! \:D woo-hoo~~ *dance a little dance* [/b]
congrads... you won yourself a KFC 2 pc meal hehehe
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/17/07 07:38 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by NW:
Scoopycar,

My last tuning was done last October. Tone is getting a bit flat nowadays. Guess it's time for maintenance.

Does regulation actualy improve the action/touch of the piano ? Do you know of any qualified technician who is good in tuning & regulating Yamaha piano ? [/b]
Hi Nw, yes regulation does improve the touch of the piano. Able to tune to A4 440 is one thing, able to stretch the treble and dips the bass properly makes a big difference.

The keyboard is a collection of linkages, from the key till the hammer strikes the strings.
1)When the key is depress halfway, or when the hammer travels halfway, if should start to lift the dampers, +- little bit. He will use a bender to do this.

2)when the hammer reach 1.5~2mm before the strings, the jack should "let-off", enabling the hammer to freely bounce back.

3)after it bounce back, the back check should catch it, thus preventing it from double strike.
How far it should catch depends on a few factors. If the jack is good design, you can adjust the back check distance depending on player preference of repitition.

4)of course otherthings like key dips and lost motion has to be checked too.

5)Depends on ability too, he will check your U1 hammer strike position, adjust if you want, but after reshaping the hammers.

6)check for abrupt difference of keypress down weight from key to keys. he can regulate by adjust springs.

wow ... very comprehensive. Any good technician with real experience can regulate a yamaha piano. They may have access to the exact specification, but the real world needs not be so rigid, but a general guideline is suffice for all uprights piano...

hehehe chiemilogy... at least this is at least what a good tech should know in the head and does what he knows.
I could recommend myself to service your U1 \:\) i invite you to try my U1 and feel the touch to help you gain confidence in me. but no yamaha certificate... give discount lor...
Posted by: pianist.ame

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/17/07 08:20 PM

to add to that try going to the music store at Singapore Plaza
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/17/07 09:04 PM

oops, hope i'm not touting.. #:^) hehehe
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/17/07 11:57 PM

Thanks, Scoopycar.

Wow, that is "chim" and simply enlightening :-)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/18/07 12:34 AM

Nw, you've got p-mail ...
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/19/07 01:52 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Oh thankz. At first, i didn't think i can do it. I downloaded the music sheet and couldn't play a few bars. I skip it for a few weeks. I listen to recordings.. save it on my cellphone, listen to it during lunch time and tea breaks. Then i go home after work to "work" on the piece slowly, bar by bar... try lor. This piece is catchy like a classical pop, nicest Cmajor song i know so far. Try to play it Deloris :-), it's free you know..... hehehe

http://www.clareyeo.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZoH57s2IxU&mode=related&search= [/b]
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/19/07 01:53 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Oh thankz. At first, i didn't think i can do it. I downloaded the music sheet and couldn't play a few bars. I skip it for a few weeks. I listen to recordings.. save it on my cellphone, listen to it during lunch time and tea breaks. Then i go home after work to "work" on the piece slowly, bar by bar... try lor. This piece is catchy like a classical pop, nicest Cmajor song i know so far. Try to play it Deloris :-), it's free you know..... hehehe

http://www.clareyeo.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZoH57s2IxU&mode=related&search= [/b]
Hey Snoopycar....
Can share the music score? I wanna practise too...Plssss....
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/19/07 04:17 AM

Of course. It's available at mutopiaproject free!!
French Suite no. 5 in G major - Gigue(dance)

I search for French Suite, JS Bach.

http://www.mutopiaproject.org/cgibin/mak...ek&lilyversion=

Kinda long link, don't know it if works. Try ok.
Enjoy....
Posted by: sping

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/19/07 04:28 AM

sorry to intrude, just like to ask, besides a heater for the piano, is there a need for a dehumidifier? For SG climate, is there a need for the dehumidifier to be switched on 24/7?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/19/07 04:36 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by TTSHE:
Hi everybody, this is my first post. Nice to meet everybody here. \:\)

I am intend to buy a second hand piano for my own. Try to pick up my hobby again. I hope you guys may be can help me to clear my doubt which I am quite confuse.

I would like to buy a Yamaha or Kawai exam piano. For Yamaha, I am aiming for U1. Not familiar of Kawai so haven't decide in which model. I just wonder how are we going to check the age of the piano through their serial no. Is there a website for me to refer to? Which Kawai piano you guys will recommend to me? Why there is a U1J or U1H, are there any different from U1?

I think I should ask a piano technician to go and view with me. Does anyone can recommand to me? How about their charges?

Thanks all for your reply. Hope to hear from you soon. [/b]
Hi TTSHE: Welcome back to Piano Hobby!!
Just like me, i finds piano a great choice of hobby. No need to sweat under the sun.. its part fingering gynastic and brain excercise!!

U1 is an excellent choice. But not everyone can take the tone. Some finds it too bright. But try to sample U1 tone with an open mind. Its tone is distinct, clear, when play loud, it holds its tone. Go for U3 or even a U5!!

Kawai has many models in the used market. Watch out, some are sold with heavy hammer wear, but hammer re-shaping is not too difficult. A good tech can do it. Generally, if both yamaha and kawai of same age and same usage, the kawai tone is more mellow.

U1J, if your search yamaha website, it's cabinets are manufactured in indonesia. Parts, i think from Japan, QC by japanese or japan train(?). Can you find a used U1J?? If you have the $$, go for original new Japan U1. But a used 25yr U1, of certain low usage, can be of great value for money($3500~4200)

As for looking for a techno person, i can offer my time to help you with no obligation - a tube of toberone chocolate will do. Certain shop has above average to excellent used pianos. These shop are reliable and need no assistance, you can be sure of its quality. Otherwise if you need someone to "tag" along to select a good piano, and to feel safer, i can "stealth" along.
If you need my help, just mention it.

cheers
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/19/07 04:56 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by sping:
sorry to intrude, just like to ask, besides a heater for the piano, is there a need for a dehumidifier? For SG climate, is there a need for the dehumidifier to be switched on 24/7? [/b]
Hi, not intruding at all, relax in our thread.. feel free to ash anything :-)

Its highly recommended to keep it on 24/7 in normal home without special room climate control. For non aircon homes, RH(relative humidity) can range from 70~90%(estimate) in Singapore. With the heater ON, it can reduce 10~15% and keep the RH inside the piano ~70~75% - according to my cheap RH meter.

Power consumption is 20~25watts, not much... but adds up in the long run $$$$

About installing a de-humidifier, you'll have to ask expert, Wizkit !! (super saulter grand owner wow...)

Wizkit pls help out here.....

Certain european models are not climatize to Singapore condition. What it means importantly, is the soundboard is not klin dry to tropical specf. Something will happen if these piano are not place in climate control room here in Singapore. Most japanese/ asia pianos don't need special climatized rooms.

What i know is on some pianos, the internal pivoting parts(action) will seized it RH gets too high. You see, for example, the hammer is supported by a pin at the flange. The pin are bushed with a thin cloth. Most piano have wooden flange. When the flange soaks up moisture, it expands, but the hole at the bush contracts and catches the pin tighter and tighter... as a result the hammer gets stuck and cannot return to rest position, and as a result the key cannot be depress. (This phenomenon might not apply to plastic flange)

For peace or mind, i leave mine on all the time.

peace \:\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/19/07 05:04 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by artemov:
Weekends, CCK/Yew Tee area, 5 minutes walk from MRT if not driving. Cheers. [/b]
Cousin no slots, checking around for you.
Last Sunday, i was at CCk. A student uses a clavinova to learn piano at grade 2 level. I enquiry about fees... not home, got to studio to learn : $125. Source from cousin, private teacher fees: 100~$120 I'm enqiring another male teacher.. aiya teacher cannot.

Why not go down to music sheet shops to get some beginner materials? Gramarcy has lots of materials. Learn about scales, bass/treble clef, beats, timings... i don't know how to teach..bohoho i wish i could. Do you have any music background? Guitar?
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/19/07 06:02 AM

If you do a search in the forum, you will understand more about the soundboard construction. Majority soundboards are built the same way (except lamination or solid). There are naturally session then kiln dry to about 7, 8, 9%. Cannot remember the figure! IMO, climatizing a piano for a country is very misleading. This is because wood is a hygroscopic materials it is normal (is the fact) for wood to react to humidity. I believe it is difficult to predict where and how many of these pieces of wood will end up to that fits for a certain environment. It is also the fact that humidity varies from countries to countries, seasons to seasons & etc. Just like many unpredictable floods happen today. Thus, wood manufacturers today have lamination boards, MDF, HDF & etc to cope with humidity issue. [There is one famous Italian furniture maker (was told by my ID) use to have solid construction on its' furniture but have now starting to use lamination or MDF]. Piano that is acclimatized for humid country usually has screws on the ribs, more MDF panels and several layers of lacquer varnish applied on the soundboard. The screws are to hold the ribs from coming unglue (too humid glue joint become weak) and the varnish is to prevent the soundboard from absorbing the moisture too quickly. If the piano is sitting in a humid environment for long period of time, it will never help. Keys become sluggish, finishing cracks because the wood is changing dimension as polyester doesn't stretched similar to road surface crack when the earth moves & etc.. etc.... Note: moisture can sip through the edges of the wood, screw holes & etc. Thus, a climate control system will be needed if the environment is too dry or too humid. Action parts are the most sensitive. If I remember correctly, it is the way the wood is cut thus it is exposed and very sensitive (quarterly sawn for strength with highly exposed grain??). What is important is one need to make sure that the RH is within the recommended level. Many see the problem in the action (indicate sluggish, hammerhead unglue & etc) because it shows. But many don’t see it in the soundboard because you cannot see it as the piano still sound maybe not so musically anymore as the design been altered or changed (read from Bechstein broucher). Some manufacturer uses composite materials for its action. Yes, it helps but then again there are other major parts that still uses wood. I believe if the action is affected by humidity so will be for the soundboard, pinblock, bridge & etc.

As for heater, I believe it helps if it is installed and position at the right place. You must make sure the piano is position at the right place too. In another words, if you have a heater on but the piano is beside an aquarium or window or etc, you will never bring the RH down. Just like an air-con, try full blast it with windows and doors open. Do you think the room will be cold?

Japanese pianos tend to do well in any climate. I was told by a dealer, who did an experiment by cutting the piano into half (of course it is a damaged piano due to flood). He discovers that majority the panels found in it are MDFs. This is why their piano doesn't change much. Also it is heavier because of MDF.

Regards.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/19/07 07:59 AM

Welcome back Jay, good info from you!!
Which part are you in now?
M or A or S ??? hehehe
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/19/07 10:17 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Welcome back Jay, good info from you!!
Which part are you in now?
M or A or S ??? hehehe [/b]
hehe.. snoop.. just got back from Singapore.... will be flying off again later... ;\) Well this time is personal.. China golf trip with some 20+ players....
Posted by: sping

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/19/07 11:52 PM

Dear All, thanks for all the replies. Looks like I got to spend quite some $$ on maintenance if I want a piano.

On the topic of piano lessons, why don't you look for a music school instead? my classes at $120 per mth for G3.

BTW, are all of you here adult learners?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 12:02 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jay:
 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Welcome back Jay, good info from you!!
Which part are you in now?
M or A or S ??? hehehe [/b]
hehe.. snoop.. just got back from Singapore.... will be flying off again later... ;\) Well this time is personal.. China golf trip with some 20+ players.... [/b]
Wah...golf aa Hit a hole in one ok?? and win a pearlriver 7' grand piano !!!
20+ ppl gang? I'm sure you'll miss roti prata there, hehehe
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 12:10 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by sping:
Dear All, thanks for all the replies. Looks like I got to spend quite some $$ on maintenance if I want a piano.

On the topic of piano lessons, why don't you look for a music school instead? my classes at $120 per mth for G3.

BTW, are all of you here adult learners? [/b]
No lah, maintenance not high mah...
1)20Watt heater power consumption is negligible
2)Tuning every 10mth, est$50(me)
3)no need change engine oil
4)no need insurance/road tax
5)can last very long 25yrs more.
example $4000/25yr =$160 per yr only
6)free time-killer
7)piano price may appreciate - hehehe

Yep, me adult beginner 38yo.
What piano are you using now? Digital?
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 02:05 AM

Erm ... actually i prefer to learn at home. More comfortable and less paiseh. And i oso know that if i learn in school, i will give up pretty soon as i am too lazy to go down \:D haha.

I have some rudimentary music theory knowledge like clefs, notes, key and time signatures, ...

So i am looking at abt 100 to 150 per 4 lessons for a private teacher?

Thanks.

Oh btw, i am thinking of putting my piano in my living rm, no air con or dehumidifier, just the heater bar. Can? Need to put a thick carpet below? How far shd the piano be from the back wall?
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 03:33 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by artemov:
Oh btw, i am thinking of putting my piano in my living rm, no air con or dehumidifier, just the heater bar. Can? Need to put a thick carpet below? How far shd the piano be from the back wall? [/b]
Get a moisture meter and see what is the reading. Rooms' RH varies from one to another... If it is below 65% and there is no more than 10% dif, the piano should be good.

As for how far the piano from the back wall, well not too far maybe about 4-5 inches. At least you can reach inside/back of the piano to do some cleaning if needed. \:D
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 03:42 AM

Most HDB homes are ok with RH. Just heater rod will do lah - don't worry lah
Homes beside hillside maybe different.
eg. hillview.... dew.dew. moist.moist Hi RH
Homes with basement also will be higer RH

Where you live??? Hope not at the swimming pool pump room aaarr??
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 03:44 AM

Jay,

Erm ... I am in Singapore ... the RH is normally far higher than 65%, though it doesn't fluctuate much.
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 03:48 AM

snoopycar,

I stay at Yew Tee area, 8th storey, relatively humid and wet, and the storms here can get really scary.

I am enamoured by the Bach-Busoni Chaconne currently ... sigh ... how i wish ...
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 05:52 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by artemov:
snoopycar,

I am enamoured by the Bach-Busoni Chaconne currently ... sigh ... how i wish ... [/b]
What's that .... i'll check yahoo \:\)
http://sg.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkt9e.Hh...3Fv=WP-FCztap74

let's hear it later when i get home..


When the storm comes, quick, get a giant zip-loc bag up you piano with 2 bucket of silica gel ... hehehe
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 06:08 AM

Erm ... fazil say's version is not very good leh.

Try this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYUdChWqB6w

by the legenday Mikhail Pletnev.

If u like Bach, this is heaven.
Posted by: wgol24

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 11:16 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
congrads... you won yourself a KFC 2 pc meal hehehe [/b]
Really ah?! \:D Where to claim my prize please :p

By the way, does anyone know where can I buy a RH meter? and how much to pay for a reliable one?

Thanks ;\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 11:57 AM

hehehe just kidding, i at first wanted to say "2 roti prata kosong"

RH meter, DIY store have meh.
Anyway, SimLim Tower sure have many selection. Go to basement lor. I'm going there tommorow after to get 2 rectifier and try to repair a organ name "orla" , ticklish brand right?

wgol24: Whats a Steinberg, Gerh. (1974)?
A german piano? How does it sounds?

ok' i enjoy listen to it.
Bach-Busoni Chaconne
Thanks for the link....
Posted by: TTSHE

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 01:31 PM

Hi Snoopycar,

Thanks for your help. Appreciate \:\)
I did go to Cristofori showroom but they only have U1J or U1H...if I am not wrong. If you said I can get a Japan Made U1 at around $3500 or more. Then I should do more homework in research before I decide. Their piano is 30+years old already.

Is there any negative opinion on buying a recondition Piano from Japan? How about buy from a local owner? Does it means recondition is better than an original old set?

I found 1 owner is selling her Kawai CX9 but I don't have much info on this Piano. Do you know is this an exam model? My budget is around S$4000 so I think U3 or U5 is out of my range already...hehe..

Once again, thanks for your reply..
Posted by: sping

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 09:18 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by artemov:
Erm ... actually i prefer to learn at home. More comfortable and less paiseh. And i oso know that if i learn in school, i will give up pretty soon as i am too lazy to go down \:D haha.

I have some rudimentary music theory knowledge like clefs, notes, key and time signatures, ...

So i am looking at abt 100 to 150 per 4 lessons for a private teacher?

Thanks.

Oh btw, i am thinking of putting my piano in my living rm, no air con or dehumidifier, just the heater bar. Can? Need to put a thick carpet below? How far shd the piano be from the back wall? [/b]
I thought learn in school got more motivation cos after hearing the little girl next door play so well, you will be motivated to beat her at it...haha...

Anyway, I am also thinking of getting a teacher to come to my home, cos at the music school, there will be no replacement lesson when you cannot make it for the lesson (happended a couple of times).

Just wondering, how much time (on avg) do you guys spend on practice everyday? I never seem to have enough time to practice...
Posted by: tses0107

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 09:39 PM

Hi..

I am new in the forum.
I have been looking for this forum, for long time but cant find it.. at last God Bless... I can find one and join it.

Many interesting discussion going on
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 11:11 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by tses0107:
Hi..

I am new in the forum.
I have been looking for this forum, for long time but cant find it.. at last God Bless... I can find one and join it.

Many interesting discussion going on [/b]
Hi Tses...
I'm not really familiar with houses in Singapore.However, in Malaysia most of us staying in condo or apartment. I came across to know a dealer said the customer has to play her piano by using the middle pedal (soft pedal) because whenever she wants to practise the piano, the neighbour will knock at the wall very loudly. SCARY ah........

Well...maybe you should tell your neighbour? or put the piano in a room? deco your room with sound proof ?

BTW, K3 is good...sound is bright and latest mechanism. Why not...?
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 11:21 PM

Hey SnoopyCar........

Thanks for the score.

I wanna share this with you too. My exam piece by E.Grieg-------------Wedding-day at Troldhaugen

Maybe can use this song for wedding?
hahahahahaha..........

Enjoy!!!!
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/20/07 11:22 PM

Hey SnoopyCar........

Thanks for the score.

I wanna share this with you too. My exam piece by E.Grieg-------------Wedding-day at Troldhaugen

http://www.mutopiaproject.org/cgibin/make-table.cgi?Instrument=Piano

Maybe can use this song for wedding?
hahahahahaha..........

Enjoy!!!!
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/21/07 02:40 AM

Erm .. is a piano really loud in a HDB flat?

Cos i live in a four room unit and I am looking at a 132 upright. I intend to put it in my living room. Hope the neighbours wont come knocking.

So really, how much should a pay for a private teacher? Anyone?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/21/07 05:42 AM

Loud nevermind as long the tone is thick and juicy, not thin and annoying... If you live in corner flat, face the non-neighbour side. Play well on acoustic, practise on digital :-)
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/21/07 08:20 AM

Artemov, I'm not sure about the price in SG but I paid my teacher RM110 for 2 hours in Malaysia. Actually the fees is based on hour. RM55 per hour. I have my lesson once every 2 weeks and I only have practical in that 1 hour's time. I go to her house for lesson, if I want her to come to my house, there will be extra RM20. By the way, 1 more day for my GM10 to arrive. Just bought a thick carpet today to put under it. Hehe.
Posted by: tses0107

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/21/07 11:31 AM

Thanks everyone...

Thanks for advice and opinion...

Actually my cousin who also stays in 4 room, also got 1 piano.. but her place is corner so no problem.

Me also staying 4 room, I think I will buy carpet or rug to prevent my neighbours kicking at my door..
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/21/07 11:57 AM

Hi Guys, i saw this at SIM LIM TOWER B1-38 selling for $65. This is the only meter with remote RH sensor. You can put the sensor into the piano to monitor... hehehe can fix camera too to see if there is any lizard inside hehehe


Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/21/07 12:13 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Deloris:
Hey SnoopyCar........

Thanks for the score.

I wanna share this with you too. My exam piece by E.Grieg-------------Wedding-day at Troldhaugen

http://www.mutopiaproject.org/cgibin/make-table.cgi?Instrument=Piano

Maybe can use this song for wedding?

hahahahahaha..........

Enjoy!!!! [/b]
Hmmmm, the music is so cute... do i sense some oriental elements??? 15 page long, maybe i'll put my notebook on my piano top to view the pdf music sheet. Very nice, thank you for sharing Deloris ;\)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UE5cQQltAI
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/21/07 12:33 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by TTSHE:
Hi Snoopycar,

Thanks for your help. Appreciate \:\)
I did go to Cristofori showroom but they only have U1J or U1H...if I am not wrong. If you said I can get a Japan Made U1 at around $3500 or more. Then I should do more homework in research before I decide. Their piano is 30+years old already.

Is there any negative opinion on buying a recondition Piano from Japan? How about buy from a local owner? Does it means recondition is better than an original old set?

I found 1 owner is selling her Kawai CX9 but I don't have much info on this Piano. Do you know is this an exam model? My budget is around S$4000 so I think U3 or U5 is out of my range already...hehe..

Once again, thanks for your reply.. [/b]
Well, from one of my experience, a used imported 25yr(low usage) U1 inside condition look so new, as compare to a 15yrs local used piano.
For example a shop have have 5 U1s, some may be 15yrs, some 30yrs. The more used, the more wear, price tapers downwards. For me i choose a 25yr that looks new inside, light wooden colour, lighe wear on the hammers, little scratch touch up here and there $4000.

Recondition could means the piano could be 35yrs or more, The strings and actions are replaced. Sometimes the action isn't replace to exact specification, as a result, the touch isn't quite nice. I bought my kawai recond at good low price. But i had to put work(36hrs) into it to make its touch nice. Oh yes the old soundboard is a joy to listen to.
But, this is my 1 experience. Don't know about other reconds.

Better buy non recond lah. Unless you have a good tech to readjust everything....

If got money buy new... can smell the fresh wood smell, like buying a new car.. all the nice plastic fragrence....
But for some, why buy new when used are as good at half price? (need to hand select to be succeed if this step is taken)

I bring you go piano shopping, ok?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/22/07 05:45 AM

Happy Bak-chang festival to all ... hehehe
Where's everybody? Went golfing, snookering, genting.... disneyland... Thailand.... I guess its friday lah. everyone is busy:)
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/22/07 09:50 AM

Wa...snoppycar, bak chang festival has past few days already loh.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/22/07 11:23 AM

Thanks.....am i living in a delayed world?

mama says life is like a piano....... practise make perfect. play wrong note, nevermind, try a again...
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/22/07 12:05 PM

Yaya.......happy ZONG ZI day!!!!!
I ate lotsa bak chang!!!
hahaha.......

Hey Snoopycar.....
I wanna go piano shopping too.........next time i go sinapore, You bring me ah...ok?
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/22/07 12:08 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by artemov:
Erm ... fazil say's version is not very good leh.

Try this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYUdChWqB6w

by the legenday Mikhail Pletnev.

If u like Bach, this is heaven. [/b]
Artemov....
the song so difficult to play!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I give up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!
Posted by: TTSHE

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/22/07 02:10 PM

Thanks snoopycar,

I am a bit confuse now. I thought most of the used imported piano is recondition set, doesn't they? Sorry for my ignorant... \:D

Let me narrow down my search first before I invite you to help me, ok. I don't want to waste your time to shop for nothing. And don't worry, I will upsize your chocolate to a big one or you prefer Bak-Chang... :p
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/22/07 08:46 PM

Don't worry, shopping is always educational, about shop owner, piano the sell, the lines they use, the knowledge they have, the helpful nature, the ignorant features, the investments, the people teamwork... meeting other shoppers too and chit chat with them and introducing them to PianoWorld forum !!!!

There are two groups of imports. 1)is very good to moderate condition. No major overhaul, just polishing and buffering. 2)very old, cosmetic and internal are worn. They replace everything, strings.... look new, but might not be orignal parts are it was manufacture 30~40years ago. Maybe U1 still have chance to use yamaha parts.

Go for non reconds, 10~25yrs. you'll be amaze at the state of some of these pianos. The owner in japan take very good care of their pianos. They play them gently, some didn't make it to high grades, so the usage may be low. Just like sitting in a nice show room. When the re-locate, the might not move the piano, as they might not have space or they like to buy new things too.
That's the busniess world. Local importer make some money by shpiing them in containers. High cost investment, but piano can sell one lah, just depends how they market, advertise and provide service support. Anyway it the after sales support isn't great, you still have piano tech like me or other private tech to help you.

The great thing about 2nd hand imports are the price is much less that new ones, more than half price!!! but it comes with age and some wear. It a compromise. and moving the economy... hehehe

need me just pmail me lor.
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/23/07 10:37 AM

The delivery pictures of my Kawai GM10 is here.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/18552.html

Sorry for the oversized images..I hope you enjoy the pictures. \:\)
Posted by: pianoblur

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/23/07 11:01 PM

Hi, I new to the forum though i have read all the pages of it \:\)

I would like to know is it trustworthy to buy from auctions? like ebay and yahoo. What happens when the seller back out of the deal?

blur blur
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/24/07 07:02 PM

Take the seller to courts superstore and ask him to buy you a honeydew smoothie. After that, take him to ikea, and both of u have a hotdog/coffee set. And call it square.. hehehe
Posted by: pianoblur

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/24/07 10:05 PM

i think internet sellers might not be so reliable. Seller seems nice and sincere but in the end also 'played' me out.

Thank you very much
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/24/07 10:39 PM

I always pay 100% cash to seller with family members as witness, no black no white. And when mover reach seller place another day, seller and mover call me to ok the move.

Problems with internet sales is when the window of opportunity opens, it opens for a certain unknown time when deals is open closed. When the buyer delays payment, the seller has rights to rejects deal - if only cash and carry can be done....

When buyers delays payment, he/she prevents the seller from other offers, some cases higher offers. Usually when i buy, i show up in person, chat with the seller, find out the reason, evaulate it the piano is worth the price. I always bring suffcient cash for deposit or cheque book. If it isn't a good deal, i offer my reason say lots of work need to be put in to make is sound nice again... dadada

If piano condition is average and has potential to become great "singer", i'll buy as it is and put magic work into it.

I myself have turn down buyer or seller when i smell something fishy. It's part of internet selling, like you go down to flee market.

Sometimes ones offers a certain price, seller say, wait.. i'll see who bid higher during the weekends. Some seller accept any reasonable offer.
anyway it's iternet auction(but seldom really auction)sales... both parties can change minds if money wasn't transacted.

So whatever happens, lifes like that. You can't win all the time. If ones never been "played out", one would know how it feels. It could teach oneself how to prevent playing out others too. Lifes like that, learn from mistake...


aarhh, let's talk about PIANO lah, not whatever good seller bad seller...... no point flaming anyone. But let's flame-up the love for piano.
Posted by: pianoblur

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/25/07 04:14 AM

ya, forget about the internet thing.

Can someone help me on the 3 shops mentioned above?

Cos I'll be getting it this few days and I really need a second opinion. \:D
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/25/07 05:35 AM

Oh ya hor.

Well, i feel the buy-back thing is an incentive thing. Assuring the buyer that if along the way if he/she likes to upgrade, the dealer makes it possible by trading in at good value - provide you buy another piano from the dealer and the piano is in good shape. But i'm don't know if you can knock-off a few hundreds from the sticker price of the piano you'd like to buy next.

If you choose a good piano in the first place, get a good tech to maintain it. Selling off taking advantage of the buy-back would be the last thing on your mind. What happens to the bought-back piano? The dealer mark up and resell again, isn't it. Most importantly, buy the best piano you can afford. The buy-back has no effect if child gives up and you want to off load it to someone else. Of course the buy-back needs to factor other items like delivery, free tuning....

Avoid recond, as i mention eariler. But again, if it is of great value, a good tech can remedy the fault and turn it into a fabulous buy!!

I can only comment on the good side of the shops.
Honesty is the best policy:

1)If yu buy from IMM, it very near Giant super market. Everytime you go shopping you can get tempted to upgrade.

2)If you buy from redevous, you get many years of service experience and expertise. Sorry, i've not been there yet.

3)If you buy from Cristy, you get 15~20% discount off music books. The New young chang is the one to buy. Very well voiced and mellow.

4)If you buy a 2nd hand kawai from Rythme n Blue, you'll get great service support. And you'll be entice to trade in soon for the lovely Grand sitting at the showroom.

Basically, buy the best sounding n best mechanically if possible - althought it might be a few hundreds more. Buy from the shop with the smiling service, no insinuation, no see-ppl-no-up attitude. If the dealer is not an piano master sifu, never mind, try to get a good tech outside.

Well, happy shopping.
Posted by: TTSHE

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/25/07 05:35 AM

Hi Pianoblur,

I go to Cristofori before. Quite keen to buy their U1.. but after get the info from snoopycar. I did hold back to see whether there is other place to get a good piano.

Not familiar in IMM shop because I have been there for long time ago. I remember there is not many Piano to choose from.

Have a nice shopping!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/25/07 05:48 AM

Don't know if i'll get into trouble for providing information. But i'm not refering to any particular shop. Sacali they bring me to courts superstore and extort me a 42" LCD TV aar...

U1 recond doesn't feels and sound like the real U1, how come? Must open the engine to see lor.
Try out the real U1 at music plaza or of decent age less than 25yr 2nd hand imports. Notice :
1) Key shape is so nice to touch, the edges are so nice and rounded, no cutting adge.
2) The tone is full, the sustain is good.
3) When played hard, the sound comes out, not got lost inside.
4) the keytouch has sustance, the keypress follows through and bounce back quick for another keypress
5)Keypress is not hard, like there is a soft pillow under your fingers.
6)all keys are similaly weighted.

But, still there are some pianist who dislike the U1. I guess after driving a BMW, what's a toyota? No puns intended ... hehehe. No harm keepping both aa? For different occasion right?
Posted by: timbo77

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/25/07 08:51 AM

Hi everyone. I'm new to the forums and have been reading this thread with interest. I'm in Singapore and am in the market for a piano. I really need a silent function on the piano so i can practice late in evenings (i tend to work late).

I don't want a digital piano: have already got and need to return the touch of real piano.

The two models I've tried are the Yamaha U1 and the Schimmel C124. The Schimmel is fabulous -- surprised more people haven't commented on this make in the forums generally. The Yamaha is also good but the sound is a little bright (definitely not a deal breaker, but I prefer the softer German sound). The crunch, however, is that the Schimmel is double the price of the Yamaha. My heart tells me to go with the Schimmel, my wallet with the Yamaha.

Any views?
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/25/07 10:01 AM

Timbo,
If you are in the market for Schimmel, you might want to try other German uprights too, including Sauter, Bechstein, and perhaps Bluthner. Just a suggestion.
Posted by: timbo77

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/25/07 11:41 AM

Thanks Wzkit. The reason why I had focused on Schimmel was the silent feature. I heard that it can be installed on many uprights but Schimmel's the only one I can find in Singapore where they will do it at the factory.

I haven't played a Bluthner for years. I remember not caring much for the one I once tried (though i recall it was a reconditioned grand rather than an upright).

I've just noticed you have a Sauter -- can I ask if the prices are comparable to Schimmel? (I have no feel for what an upright Bechstein or Bluthner go for.)
Posted by: Wzkit

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/25/07 11:54 AM

Timbo - prices between Schimmel and Sauter are about comparable, with Sauter costing perhaps slightly more for the same size. Both have very different tone/touch characteristics however, with the Sauter tone generally more "meaty", in my opinion, while Schimmel would be on the "sweeter" side.

Bluthner would likely be more expensive than either. Bechstein uprights would probably cost around the same as Schimmel or slightly less, but C Bechstein (the premier line of Bechstein) I would expect to cost around the same as Bluthner.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/25/07 06:56 PM

.... not to mention too, do try out the Fazioli and Estonia at E&sons. wow! fazioli, distinct multi layer timbre, sweet, not too sweet, little bell like. Touch is nothing i;ve every lay fingers on, excellent. Estonia, very pure & singing tone. Both very tuned by master. Time to sell off the share stocks to buy whats food for the musical soul... hehehe
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/26/07 02:00 AM

hi timbo77,

i like the sound of schimmel 124TC very much too except the price. it sounds better than the 132DT that was there last year during my shopping trip.

everyone has a different liking for sound. just go for the one you like.
Posted by: pianoblur

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/26/07 05:59 AM

Hi, just 1 more question :

Anybody can advise on Kawai NS-15M or HA20?

NS-15M is Kawai's 60th Anniversary Production.

HA20 is only 9 yrs old.

Is there anyplace I can go to read any comparison?

Please help.

Thanks

pianoblur
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/26/07 10:07 PM

pianoblur.... don't mind me asking the "rude" question.... don't mean to be rude, what's your budget? So that we can help you recomment better.

For a certain budget bracket, certain range of piano model can't go wrong.

For $3500~$4000, get a excellent grade U1 yamaha(work horse) for peace of mind. Let dealers earn some $$, it's ok. Not that yaya has not problems, if there is, they are minor.

Kawai has so many models with "experiments" parts. Some squeak, some leather isn't as lasting. Some capstan dont have any graphite coating and they are squeaky...

Shops that go all out to promote buy-back... how would you know the piano you are going to buy isn't a bought-back piano??

I feels that any yaya or kaka can be made mellow. since yamyam U1 comes with harder hammer, naturally it's brighter. Don't want to change that by needling it. Then it'll change the character of a yamyam U1... (U1 supporter hehehe)
It's like you buy a Subaru WRX then you go change softer spring and 14"wheels.... hehehe

For $2000~$3000
Can get older KaKa or Yamyam or other japanese brands.

For $1000~$1800, can try yahoo auction or ebay for any good deals.

For $600~$1000
Maybe you can get a reasonable gem and ask techie to help you tune it up.

For $500 below
These are testing pianos for child who don't know if interest will last.

For working adults, i'd recomment get a moderate range piano like 3~4K because you get to enjoy good sound and touch pleasure on what a good piano should delivery. A piano is manufacture to give musical pleasure, not just can press got sound can already lah.... hehehe
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/26/07 10:24 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoblur:
Hi, just 1 more question :

Anybody can advise on Kawai NS-15M or HA20?

NS-15M is Kawai's 60th Anniversary Production.

HA20 is only 9 yrs old.

Is there anyplace I can go to read any comparison?

Please help.

Thanks

pianoblur [/b]
Which is better?
It's still better to ask a tech to go down to inspect the inner mechanism, conpare the 2 side by side, listening to the tonal charcter of the 2.
Because even if you can get the specf of the 2 models, the usage can only be determing upon inspection and evaluation.

Piano are not like notebook or car where you can get reviews and testdrive readily. Which has more RAM, which HDD has higher capacity, when CPU is faster, which has longer run time... DVD writer, shaper faster screen.....

Piano are subjective:
Some like heavy keys some like light.
Some like dark, some like bright.
Most like tall.
Most don't like short.
Some like slippery key surface, some like matted.
Some like yamaha, some like kawai
Some don't like both, there sound are too 2-dimension.
Some like pure tone, some like complex

You have to evalute yourself by playing a few songs, legato, staccato, alterating chords, play songs with pedal, play classical pieces.

Listen to the different song, decern the musical effects on your ear.

In summary, we can recommend you what we think, you have to know what to choose.

sorry for being so long winded
cheers
Posted by: pianoblur

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/26/07 10:34 PM

snoopycar,

thank you for your response, but I feel that its a little out of point.

I have tried both and I like both. Though the NS-15M is older at 18yrs and the HA20 is only 9 yrs old.

The difference is only a few hundred dollars. Money is not the issue here.


I would not be surprised that a 18yr old NS can sound nicer than the 9 yrs old HA.

Since u mentioned that certain Kawais are experimental, this is exactly y I want to know the specs of the pianos.

Do you know anything about these 2 pianos or is there any article I can read up on?

Thanks


Pianoblur
(not preferring a yamaha)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/26/07 11:38 PM

oops, sorry aar... \:\)

Specf only mention, dimemsion, weight and limited info. Critical info aren't release.... maybe a kawai tech have access to the service techsheets.

I might have a solution for you, pianoblur. Is it possible to have a pianist play for you on both piano and have your eyes blind folded? Do a blind test and hear which you like better lor...

For me, if i have 2 choice, i'd open the cover to inspect the hammer wear, any loose hammer bush by lightly running your fingenails along the hammer tail, check the leather for flakes, check the regulation, listen to the individual notes for any dead note, or metalic harmonics, test the dynamic range, inspect for any misalign hammer head. massage the keys for freeplay, check key leveling.

I can check all these for you for the price of a box vanhouten chocolate... hehehe Sometime, like choosing a boyfriend is not easy. You can't choose by looking at the academic certificates, diploma, degree.. if under stress, the character breaks down , then it's a bad choice.

Like piano, some don't prefer kawai plastic parts, some don't mind, some like the technology... so different specf may be of little comparison value when the whole piano works in combination of many components and designs put together to produce a unique tone.

If still can't decide, then tigum tigum lor. Sorry, i'm think i went into the chimm mode, over done it again. Hope i didn't confuse you further.
Guess you know now i don't have the answer, sorry to bring you a big round and back to square one. hehehe
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/27/07 07:38 AM

pianoblur,

if money is no issue, better get a new kawai piano. the sound, action and response have improved by leaps and bounds for kawai. that would do more justice for your hardearned money.

if you are determine to get either of the 2, remember to plan your budget for some future cost in maintaining old pianos.

new pianos are also easier to be sold off compare to very old ones. at least can get back some reasonable return should you decide to change one.

like any trade, there are always 7 levels, from novice to world-class. which one are you in? that should set some clue on which to get...
Posted by: artemov

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/27/07 08:14 AM

Yippee! After nearly 10 months, I finally bought my piano!!

I just forked out the downpayment for my Brodmann 132. Will test the new piano and take delivery two weeks later.

My thanks to all those who have helped and advised me in one way or another, especially wzkit, mendo, snoopycar, and of course Alvin. My heartfelt gratitude.

Anyone wanna come down to the warehouse to help me try out the new piano? \:\)

Will try to take some pics for you guys!
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/27/07 08:44 AM

Congra artemov! Please post the delivery pictures ya.
Posted by: pianoblur

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/27/07 08:54 AM

hi Mendo,

The money is not a prob refers to te comparison of 300-400 diff between HA and NS15.

Can't afford to buy a new one yet. \:\)

I have decided to get the NS 15 cos it is taller and it sounds as good. Cos I really have no info on the HA. \:\(

Thanks for the comments \:\) Piano is coming on Sunday.


pianoblur
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/27/07 09:01 AM

Hi pianoblur, you bought it already? Congra, remember to post pictures after delivery ya.
Posted by: RichterForever

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 06/27/07 11:48 AM

Congrats Artemov on the Brodmann. Is the 132 an upright? Going by the 187 I played some weeks ago and the asking price, the established pianomakers should be getting pretty worried.

By the way, I was in Thomson Plaza today and noticed that there was an S6 display set on offer. Didn't ask about the offer price but was allowed to tinkle the ivories and boy was that an experience. IMHO it is the equal of the best European pianos I have tried (although I haven't tried that many) and dare I say better than any of the SKs I have sampled.. Only problem is the list price is in excess of 80K. It was of course moot asking what the offer price was.
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/03/07 12:01 AM

Hey peoples.......
Wah...so quiet suddenly....?
Everyone must be sooooooooo busy ah...

Jar Jar...
The SK II beside your GM 10 last time has SOLD! So fast leh......cannot test already!!!!
Don't know when they will have a new one... \:\(
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/03/07 03:01 AM

as usual... waiting for each other to post.. hahaha... \:D
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/03/07 08:39 AM

which affordable piano sound closest to steinway?
my budget doesn't allow me yet...

i like very much the one george winston plays.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/03/07 09:33 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mendo:
which affordable piano sound closest to steinway?
my budget doesn't allow me yet...

i like very much the one george winston plays. [/b]
Tune your piano slightly out of tune with the wow-wow effects, and it'll sound like a Steinway lor... hehehe
Posted by: wgol24

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/03/07 11:37 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
hehehe just kidding, i at first wanted to say "2 roti prata kosong"

RH meter, DIY store have meh.
Anyway, SimLim Tower sure have many selection. Go to basement lor. I'm going there tommorow after to get 2 rectifier and try to repair a organ name "orla" , ticklish brand right?

wgol24: Whats a Steinberg, Gerh. (1974)?
A german piano? How does it sounds?[/b]
Oh how dare you "cheat" my feelings snoopycar! :p hehe :p so my KFC 2-piece meal is gone! \:\(

Thanks for the info on the RH. Will go and check it out.

Steinberg Gerh. is now under Perzina I believe? It's a very old British-made 2-pedal piano. In its hey day, it has quite a lovely sound but the action is nowhere as good as a Yamaha. Nevertheless it has seen me through my Grade 8 so it holds some sentimental value for me although is it now "beyond hope" and has zilch market value, and is terribly out of tune.

I don't know of anyone who also owns a Steinberg Gerh. so it must be very unknown and unpopular. \:\)
Posted by: wgol24

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/03/07 11:47 AM

mendo, I too would very much like to own a steinway but I simply can't afford it \:\( I had the opportunity to play on a very lovely one in uni, and it simply blew my breath away... (bear in mind I'm not even a good player so to speak)

Personally I quite like the sound of Schimmel too but I'm not sure how much the upright would cost?
Posted by: wgol24

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/03/07 11:51 AM

snoopycar, one more thing, eh don't know if you can help :p If I want to try DIY tuning on my old old steinberg just for the fun of it, where can I go to get the piano tuning tools? err the tool that you will use to twist and turn the tuning pins?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/03/07 07:03 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by wgol24:
snoopycar, one more thing, eh don't know if you can help :p If I want to try DIY tuning on my old old steinberg just for the fun of it, where can I go to get the piano tuning tools? err the tool that you will use to twist and turn the tuning pins? [/b]
I can lend you my spare tuning wrench and some rubber mute. But you'll need some guidence and some reference tone analyzer. For rough tuning, you might use the normal less than $80 type, not very accurate, but can do. If you just want to play and experiement, and feel how it's like, sure can. PM me lor. You'll be surprise some old old piano will sound nice after a proper tuning... hehehe
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/04/07 07:14 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by wgol24:
mendo, I too would very much like to own a steinway but I simply can't afford it \:\( I had the opportunity to play on a very lovely one in uni, and it simply blew my breath away... (bear in mind I'm not even a good player so to speak)

Personally I quite like the sound of Schimmel too but I'm not sure how much the upright would cost? [/b]
me also like schimmel. saw one last year at chiu piano, think it ard 20k for 124in.

each brand of piano, personally for me, is suited for certain types of music.

my preferences based on what i've tried on so far (sound and action as per tried on):

steinway - modern pop, george winston, jim brickman type with firm, booming bass chords and meaty treble

schimmel - jazz type and mozart or hadyn with absolutely crystal clear, singing tones without the booming bass

steingraeber - bach with definite firm, heavy touch and full tone

s. kawai - beethoven, chopin, debussy with overall class in actions and dynamics

anyone else with their preferences?
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/07/07 02:59 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mendo:
 Quote:
Originally posted by wgol24:
mendo, I too would very much like to own a steinway but I simply can't afford it \:\( I had the opportunity to play on a very lovely one in uni, and it simply blew my breath away... (bear in mind I'm not even a good player so to speak)

Personally I quite like the sound of Schimmel too but I'm not sure how much the upright would cost? [/b]
me also like schimmel. saw one last year at chiu piano, think it ard 20k for 124in.


i think the KAWAI K Series and the Shigeru Kawai are suitable for ROCK n ROLL/Boogie......because the repetition is GOOD.
each brand of piano, personally for me, is suited for certain types of music.

my preferences based on what i've tried on so far (sound and action as per tried on):

steinway - modern pop, george winston, jim brickman type with firm, booming bass chords and meaty treble

schimmel - jazz type and mozart or hadyn with absolutely crystal clear, singing tones without the booming bass

steingraeber - bach with definite firm, heavy touch and full tone

s. kawai - beethoven, chopin, debussy with overall class in actions and dynamics

anyone else with their preferences? [/b]
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/07/07 03:49 AM

wow.... thanks for sharing. How nice if there is a switch at the front of the piano to select the types of tone... hehehe

Drop by music plaza thomson yesterday to meddle with the grands. GB1 treble sustain and volume is lacking when compared with his bigger brother C1, C2 ++++ where they have duplex. Their treble seems sweeter and louder, long.. C2 is very nice, price is very nice too. Thanks to the sales guys who let me have my own time testing.... cheers. drooling... \:D

When i play the yamaha grands, i didn't notice any bright or harshness. it's just brillient to me. Can't say is good for any specific music as my music knowledge is still lacking. But i can play anything and anything sounds nice.....
Posted by: pianistsg

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/07/07 10:32 AM

I'm a student and already own a 7 year old china made piano and currently thinking of upgrading.

This might be a little late but I'm going down to view several pianos tommorrow afternoon and hope someone would see this soon and tell me what to look out for when choosing a piano. I have read every page of this thread, serious.

My budget is around 10-15k SGD and I prefer the sweeter sound for a piano. I don't know how to express this in words but I know I'm looking for pianos with kinda mellow and singing tone. For example, I like the sound of Kawai's.

This time I'm getting a piano that has to really last long, I don't think I'm ever gonna change it till termites grow or something.

Can someone advise on models to look at? I'm towawards Kawai and Petrof although I know they produce very different sounds. Yamaha is also on the list, behind Kawai and Petrof.

What songs would be good to test a piano? And are there any other brands of pianos which are good and produce the type of sound I'm looking for? I'm open to 2nd hands, if there are good ones now.

Thanks in advance. =D
Posted by: RichterForever

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/07/07 11:41 AM

Snoopycar,
Did you try the S4 and S6 which was on offer?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/07/07 07:19 PM

Oh ya, the key texture feel strange to me. The tone were more mellow than the Cs. Didn't get to feel more as there wasn't a stool for me to sit at the Ss.. anyway it was dinner time and stomach was grinding. Let meet up and go down another time to eval ok? hehehe (display pianos are for ppl to try and play(test drive) right?)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/07/07 08:01 PM

pianistsg: welcome to the thread !! \:D

wow 10~15k is very solid budget, can buy 3 2nd hand yamaha U1... hehehe

Seriously, you should(IMHO)go and get a kawai GM10 baby grand right away, 13K+ if you have space! But the catch is a grand always sound superior because the top lid is open. Try it with the lid close too. That when you'll spend most of the time. unless there is a motor attach to automatic open/close when you open the fall board.. hahaha
Leaving the top lid open is inviting dust and moisture... not goodie

That's right, since piano passion has grown into you and is going to stay with you for a long long time, owning a new piano is a special event - ribbon cutting, welcome cakes, picture taking with shop staff, shaking the manager hands.

Firstly you need to shop around with some checklist for sound and touch(ignore the internal stuff first).
1)Dynamics
hammer all the notes from bass to treble with 5 different strength as a start. did you feel a volume-ceiling. Some piano, although it may be mellow, because of the soft hammer, it might not produce enough power to excite high sound volume. So, you have to watch out.

Listen when you hit the note hard, can the sound come out of the piano, or it get stuck? a low ceiling, not good. What happens when you hit soft to hard, did the tone timbre change slightly from mellow to little bright, then it's an expresive tone. If it mearly change to louder, it's a digital piano, just kidding. that where the $$ makes the differenc part(voicing done by master).


2)touch - run chromatic lightly across all keys, each pass with more strength
- is it even, did some key feels more friction.
- Is the loudness consistance, did some note sounds short
- did timbre change too significantly? inconsistant, not good.

3)Musicality
-play fast scale, does it sounds fluid like magic or, mechanical, or ordinary?
Play soon pieces on the piano and listen to music as you play, must be a familiar piece lah. Does it sounds like the CD you heard, does it give you a wide eyes wow-factor?

Due to my limited piano experiece, members pls contribute other items to look out too, ok \:D

i read from other thread you should have some selected piece for stacatto, legato, chord crash etc...
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/08/07 12:35 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianistsg:
I'm a student and already own a 7 year old china made piano and currently thinking of upgrading.

This might be a little late but I'm going down to view several pianos tommorrow afternoon and hope someone would see this soon and tell me what to look out for when choosing a piano. I have read every page of this thread, serious.

My budget is around 10-15k SGD and I prefer the sweeter sound for a piano. I don't know how to express this in words but I know I'm looking for pianos with kinda mellow and singing tone. For example, I like the sound of Kawai's.

This time I'm getting a piano that has to really last long, I don't think I'm ever gonna change it till termites grow or something.

Can someone advise on models to look at? I'm towawards Kawai and Petrof although I know they produce very different sounds. Yamaha is also on the list, behind Kawai and Petrof.

What songs would be good to test a piano? And are there any other brands of pianos which are good and produce the type of sound I'm looking for? I'm open to 2nd hands, if there are good ones now.

Thanks in advance. =D [/b]
With that budget, get that K8 or K80, for a little lesser. That would last you till you get your diploma. This thread alone, already 2 persons bought the K8.

Or alternatively, if add a little bit more, I'll go for the 120i schimmel for that pure crystal sound.
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/08/07 11:54 AM

Hey pianistSg,

Well....I truly agreed with Snoopycar's decision. GM 10..is an ideal baby grand.However, i'm not sure how much is the price in Singapore. i personal think the key of GM10 is light. Key weight is not what i want.

As mentioned by, Mendo....K8 will be another good choice too. At least, all the mechanism are the latest. UP RIGHT grand....

Mendo...
Is K80 still in production?
Posted by: singapore qualified technician

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/08/07 02:28 PM

to be safer on your side,check with the dealer,are they willing to provide a buyback guarantee,and also can the shop let you exchange a piano(not question asked) for a certain period,if they do you can rely on them.
traders only dealer(wont do that)
professional dealer can do that i guess
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/08/07 07:09 PM

A big welcome to SgQualified(Piano)Technician:D
(now we know who to bombard questions...hehehe)
Thanks for sharing with all of us.

I know what you mean. There are piano-traders and piano-dealers(used&new). I feels dealers are more commited for long run bussiness. They have technical hands-on knowledge, service support and workshop, tools, stringing tools and on-site experience. They are not so worried about price wars. They know honesty and consistancy is the way to go and the key-magnet to bussiness.

How do you know that a dealer is will provide good service? IMHO one way, if the piano they display at the shop is tuned, you'll know they are commited. Dealers don't bash me ..... Just like a car showroom, how can they display brand new car with a half deflated tyres?(it's ok, we'll pump the tyre after we sell you the car... hehehe)

(i'm not a dealer, old wang selling melon, ok)

cheers n peace to all
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/09/07 07:25 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Deloris:


Mendo...
Is K80 still in production? [/b]
i'm not sure, but the distributor still carry a few units at its few showrooms a month ago. not sure if they are all cleared during GSS.

i personnally prefer the sound of the kx0 series over the newer kx. and it's cheaper too.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/09/07 08:52 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianistsg:
I'm a student and already own a 7 year old china made piano and currently thinking of upgrading.

This might be a little late but I'm going down to view several pianos tommorrow afternoon and hope someone would see this soon and tell me what to look out for when choosing a piano. I have read every page of this thread, serious.

My budget is around 10-15k SGD and I prefer the sweeter sound for a piano. I don't know how to express this in words but I know I'm looking for pianos with kinda mellow and singing tone. For example, I like the sound of Kawai's.

This time I'm getting a piano that has to really last long, I don't think I'm ever gonna change it till termites grow or something.

Can someone advise on models to look at? I'm towawards Kawai and Petrof although I know they produce very different sounds. Yamaha is also on the list, behind Kawai and Petrof.

What songs would be good to test a piano? And are there any other brands of pianos which are good and produce the type of sound I'm looking for? I'm open to 2nd hands, if there are good ones now.

Thanks in advance. =D [/b]
Kawai K-8. But that's probably because I'm biased. \:\)
Posted by: AnneOCDS

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/09/07 10:57 AM

Dear everyone,

This is my 3rd posting. Some kind person referred me to this topic as I am in Malaysia and most of you are in Spore. I would not mind having more advice as to whether I should get this piano or not.

I am looking at a used Kawai BL-31 serial number M103nnnn, which dates back to 1978 or so. The seller is an experienced refurbisher of Yamaha and Kawai pianos which he imports from Japan. He restores them. He also sells to Sporean buyers. I do like the sound and touch of this piano (more mellow and firmer touch).

I got some more info on this piano from the seller. Feel free to comment if you have the time.

1) This KAWAI piano has the word 'SPECIAL' on the iron frame where the Serial no is. Because of this I was told that it is a custom-made one as it has:

a) GERMAN HAMMER heads, therefore the mellow tone
b) STAINLESS STEEL STRINGS
c) DIFFERENT DESIGN in the piano 'legs'. Looks different.

2) The Warranty for 6 years covers EVERYTHING which fails to work as long as the defect is not due to my negligence eg I did not turn on the heater etc.

3) The 1978 year of manufacture needs be 'buffered' with 5 years as the Iron frame which has the serial number printed may be produced as early as 5 years before the actual completion of the piano! Hmmm ... so it could be anywhere from 1978 - 1983 (best case).

4) The pianos made in Japan during the 70s - 90s are THE BEST as they use good AGED WOOD which newer pianos do not use.

5) The parts RESTORED in the piano are the WEAR and TEAR parts eg the 'bushing' lining, otherwise everything else eg action, strings etc are ORIGINAL.

6) The heavier touch can be achieved from :
a) Regulation
b) Weights at the back of the keys.

7) The offer price is RM6000.

THANKS EVERYONE for listening. If there is anything amiss from this report (apart from getting an independent technician), please do let me know, otherwise I think I will buy it.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/09/07 12:32 PM

Hi AnneOCDS,

This thread says that the BL-31 was a relatively low-end Kawai. But honestly, if it is in good shape and you like how it sounds and feels then go for it. Your dealer also seems to be offering good terms.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/09/07 09:20 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by AnneOCDS:
Dear everyone,

This is my 3rd posting. Some kind person referred me to this topic as I am in Malaysia and most of you are in Spore. I would not mind having more advice as to whether I should get this piano or not.

I am looking at a used Kawai BL-31 serial number M103nnnn, which dates back to 1978 or so. The seller is an experienced refurbisher of Yamaha and Kawai pianos which he imports from Japan. He restores them. He also sells to Sporean buyers. I do like the sound and touch of this piano (more mellow and firmer touch).

I got some more info on this piano from the seller. Feel free to comment if you have the time.

1) This KAWAI piano has the word 'SPECIAL' on the iron frame where the Serial no is. Because of this I was told that it is a custom-made one as it has:

a) GERMAN HAMMER heads, therefore the mellow tone
b) STAINLESS STEEL STRINGS
c) DIFFERENT DESIGN in the piano 'legs'. Looks different.

2) The Warranty for 6 years covers EVERYTHING which fails to work as long as the defect is not due to my negligence eg I did not turn on the heater etc.

3) The 1978 year of manufacture needs be 'buffered' with 5 years as the Iron frame which has the serial number printed may be produced as early as 5 years before the actual completion of the piano! Hmmm ... so it could be anywhere from 1978 - 1983 (best case).

4) The pianos made in Japan during the 70s - 90s are THE BEST as they use good AGED WOOD which newer pianos do not use.

5) The parts RESTORED in the piano are the WEAR and TEAR parts eg the 'bushing' lining, otherwise everything else eg action, strings etc are ORIGINAL.

6) The heavier touch can be achieved from :
a) Regulation
b) Weights at the back of the keys.

7) The offer price is RM6000.

THANKS EVERYONE for listening. If there is anything amiss from this report (apart from getting an independent technician), please do let me know, otherwise I think I will buy it. [/b]
I have good experience with a recond 1967 125cm K8. The tone is marvelous bass is deep, mellow, mid treble has a bell like sweet tone. Must be the soft hammers. The regulation need to re-adjust, as all the damper lift was too early - in a way adding unecssary spring weight to the keys touch. I'm planing to sell at SGD2K, waitng for buyer to save up in few mths time.

Look into the actions from the top.
Does the dampers starts to lift when the hammer are halfway to the strings? Is it over lifting - spoon length is wrong?

Key weight is subjective. On some pianos, heavy key can be responsive, but on other piano, it is due to bush friction and hard springs and cause missed notes.

No point adding weights to the key rear, but the hammers is light, doubt the tone dynamics would improves. But if it was refitted with heavier hammers which make the resulted key inertia higher, and the action is properly regulated(good setup-like a racecar), it can be a thrill to play!!

Have you tried to play some songs on it? mozart k545? Where is the piano shop? Johor jaya?
Posted by: tses0107

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/10/07 12:57 AM

Thanks to everybody posting and advise...

I have bought my Kawai K3.. \:D

The size also suit my small HDB flat..

Now playing it almost everyday, coz I have stopped playing piano for more than 10 years..

Hope I can play well one day...
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/10/07 02:21 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by tses0107:
Thanks to everybody posting and advise...

I have bought my Kawai K3.. \:D

The size also suit my small HDB flat..

Now playing it almost everyday, coz I have stopped playing piano for more than 10 years..

Hope I can play well one day... [/b]
Hey Tses 0107;

GOOD CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Congratulation!!!!!!!!
Didn't you take any picture during the delivery time?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/10/07 05:20 AM

Wow another Kawai Fan !!!
Congrads !! (^V^)

New shinny knight huh.... did you give it a pat every night and morning?? I touch the trebles of my pianos everynight... ting ting, sometimes it response with bong bong at the bass section... hehehe
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/10/07 06:47 AM

Mendo,
Here is my experience and preference:
1) Yamaha - my niece has an U1. It has the typical Yamaha bright tone and light touch. However, it is loud and the dynamics is very good. I think Yamaha is good in pop songs, jazz and modern music. I think it is not suitable for Baroque period pieces such as J.S Bach due to the long sustain.

2) Petrof - my 1st piano teacher used it and I have been learning piano on it for few years. The warm tone is very suitable for classical pieces. I love the mellow tone of it.

3) Kawai - I own one now. It is very suitable for romantic period pieces by Chopin, Mozart and also modern music. Pieces that use a lot of sustain pedal is good on Kawai.

Snoopycar,
I've played some old Yamaha C3, C7 (more than 20 years old) and they all have exceptional bright tone. Maybe the one that you've played is still new and those that I played have not had any good maintenance and voicing. I prefer the Kawai Neotex key surface rather than Yamaha's Ivorites. I feel the Ivorites is too coarse. While the Neotex is finer but still provide the good 'anti-slippery' effect.

A little update on my GM10, it has started to adapt to the new environment as I found more and more keys are out of tune now. My house's temperature is quite high and does not have air-cond in my living room. Will try get it tune next week and probably I could do some recording later. The lid is so heavy to lift up, now I found a good excersice for my arms already.

Deloris,
The SK is doing quite well in Malaysia ya? So is the boss going to open more branches? Hehe..maybe can hire me by then.

PianoDisc,
My vote goes to the Kawai K8 as well. Although I own the GM10 baby grand which Snoopycar suggested but I still suggest you to go for the upright. The upright is better choice for Singapore living environment since most of the people live in condo/HDB. It is easier to sell too. I believe it has a deeper bass than the GM10 and it also comes witht he Millenium III action.


Anne,
Welcome to the forum. I'm from Malaysia too and there are also quite a number of members in this forum are from Malaysia. I like to do piano shopping and I've been to quite a number of piano shops in KL. Do you mind telling me the name of the dealer of the piano that you're looking at?
Regarding the piano BL-31 that you intend to buy, as another poster has stated, it is not an highend model of Kawai piano. The price RM6000 is too high for that 30 year-old piano. I think you could slash it down to RM4000~5000. They are tons of those pianos in the market now, you could easily find another one. About the key weight, I'll prefer a lighter touch, even if the key weight is heavy, it should not be stiff.

Are the German hammers comes with the original piano or has been replaced? If all the hammers had been replaced that means this piano could have gone through lot of usage. I know it is not easy to hire a piano tech to check out the piano for you in Malaysia as recommended by other members so don't rush to commit. See more and try more.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/10/07 09:41 AM

nicely said

jarjar, how does your grangrand sounds with lid close? How about half stick?

Does your boyboy admire you from the sofa when you play ?? My girgirl startled me graps my 2 hands from behind and imagine she's playing the song, then the song gets mess up, then giggle.... then my memory becomes scramble, need to refer to music sheet again... hahaha
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/10/07 12:16 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
Mendo,
Here is my experience and preference:
1) Yamaha - my niece has an U1. It has the typical Yamaha bright tone and light touch. However, it is loud and the dynamics is very good. I think Yamaha is good in pop songs, jazz and modern music. I think it is not suitable for Baroque period pieces such as J.S Bach due to the long sustain.

2) Petrof - my 1st piano teacher used it and I have been learning piano on it for few years. The warm tone is very suitable for classical pieces. I love the mellow tone of it.

3) Kawai - I own one now. It is very suitable for romantic period pieces by Chopin, Mozart and also modern music. Pieces that use a lot of sustain pedal is good on Kawai.

Snoopycar,
I've played some old Yamaha C3, C7 (more than 20 years old) and they all have exceptional bright tone. Maybe the one that you've played is still new and those that I played have not had any good maintenance and voicing. I prefer the Kawai Neotex key surface rather than Yamaha's Ivorites. I feel the Ivorites is too coarse. While the Neotex is finer but still provide the good 'anti-slippery' effect.

A little update on my GM10, it has started to adapt to the new environment as I found more and more keys are out of tune now. My house's temperature is quite high and does not have air-cond in my living room. Will try get it tune next week and probably I could do some recording later. The lid is so heavy to lift up, now I found a good excersice for my arms already.

Deloris,
The SK is doing quite well in Malaysia ya? So is the boss going to open more branches? Hehe..maybe can hire me by then.

PianoDisc,
My vote goes to the Kawai K8 as well. Although I own the GM10 baby grand which Snoopycar suggested but I still suggest you to go for the upright. The upright is better choice for Singapore living environment since most of the people live in condo/HDB. It is easier to sell too. I believe it has a deeper bass than the GM10 and it also comes witht he Millenium III action.


Anne,
Welcome to the forum. I'm from Malaysia too and there are also quite a number of members in this forum are from Malaysia. I like to do piano shopping and I've been to quite a number of piano shops in KL. Do you mind telling me the name of the dealer of the piano that you're looking at?
Regarding the piano BL-31 that you intend to buy, as another poster has stated, it is not an highend model of Kawai piano. The price RM6000 is too high for that 30 year-old piano. I think you could slash it down to RM4000~5000. They are tons of those pianos in the market now, you could easily find another one. About the key weight, I'll prefer a lighter touch, even if the key weight is heavy, it should not be stiff.

Are the German hammers comes with the original piano or has been replaced? If all the hammers had been replaced that means this piano could have gone through lot of usage. I know it is not easy to hire a piano tech to check out the piano for you in Malaysia as recommended by other members so don't rush to commit. See more and try more. [/b]
Jarjar,
I do agreed with what you said. As for me, there is no any particular preferences on pianos to play any type of songs. However, as i tried KAWAI before, i think KAWAI is nice to play in all type of music. This also need to depends on the model of KAWAI. The RX 2 i tried, i like the touch as it is heavier, sound is brighter which i can play "pounding" songs. When i tried your GM10 last time, it is more suitable for songs which is more "SEXY" and sentimental. ;\)

Anne,
RM6000 for BL model, i do think it is TOO much. Try to key in the Serial number at www.kawaiuk.com and check the age of the piano. If you are paying RM6000 for a 30 years old piano, why dun u invest a lil bit more for a brand new piano, despite KAWAI or YAMAHA?

Jar Jar,
Why not recommend Anne to the shop you bought the GM10? Hey, you can check with Jess whether the boss is going to have another branch? hehehe..... \:D
Posted by: singapore qualified technician

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/10/07 02:09 PM

to restore a japanese used piano the proper way is time consuming and not very viable,as the price when new just doesnt justified,
not much trader would restring and change tuning pins on japanese piano,only easier work eg,muffer felt,keyrail felt,cleaning pins and string or changing of bridle tapes.
so far i did only 1 yamaha U3 as some idiot have spray oil on the tuning pins and made it very slippery,
my main concern is too old a piano sometime torque of the tuning pins might be loose which is crucial for a piano ,if you wants to tune it to concert pitch of A440c/s.if cant tune to the pitch then its not worthwhile to consider.
i repeat tuning pins must be tight enough to hold the pitch at A440cps,THATS MOST IMPORTANT when buying a used piano.
Posted by: singapore qualified technician

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/10/07 02:18 PM

Snoopycar,
I prefer the Kawai Neotex key surface rather than Yamaha's Ivorites. I feel the Ivorites is too coarse. While the Neotex is finer but still provide the good 'anti-slippery' effect.

all above are man-made syntetic ivory,if you happen to have a yamaha with ivorite and have turn coarse pls dont relace it with plastic keys\top thats what some sg yamaha tech will do,
i just buff it up and they feels smoother and nicer,easier ,cheaper and still can key the ivorite.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/10/07 06:55 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by tses0107:
Thanks to everybody posting and advise...

I have bought my Kawai K3.. \:D

The size also suit my small HDB flat..

Now playing it almost everyday, coz I have stopped playing piano for more than 10 years..

Hope I can play well one day... [/b]
can you pm me the price you paid for. did you check the other k series?
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/10/07 07:06 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by singapore qualified technician:
to restore a japanese used piano the proper way is time consuming and not very viable,as the price when new just doesnt justified,
not much trader would restring and change tuning pins on japanese piano,only easier work eg,muffer felt,keyrail felt,cleaning pins and string or changing of bridle tapes.
so far i did only 1 yamaha U3 as some idiot have spray oil on the tuning pins and made it very slippery,
my main concern is too old a piano sometime torque of the tuning pins might be loose which is crucial for a piano ,if you wants to tune it to concert pitch of A440c/s.if cant tune to the pitch then its not worthwhile to consider.
i repeat tuning pins must be tight enough to hold the pitch at A440cps,THATS MOST IMPORTANT when buying a used piano. [/b]
so, the tuning pins becoming loose is a matter of simply retightening again or an intrinsic failure mode, that the pins need to be change over certain period of time?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/10/07 07:07 PM

ya man.... some traders spray wd-40 on scotch brite to clean the tuning pins, some oil seeps into the block and thats it ..leow. pitch drop by itself...

SQT, good info thanks
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/11/07 09:23 AM

Haha snoopycar, you're so funny. Well, my bf doesn't got the chance to 'admire' my playing yet. He flew off to Vietnam for job function the next day after my piano was delivered. Till now still not back yet.
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/11/07 10:55 AM

so...........as a conclusion..........DONT buy used piano????

How should we know whether the tuning pin of the used piano is good or not? We cant ask the tuner to check b4 we buy, rite?

Well....buying a used piano really BUY AT UR OWN RISK.
Posted by: singapore qualified technician

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/11/07 02:24 PM

How should we know whether the tuning pin of the used piano is good or not? We cant ask the tuner to check b4 we buy, rite?

Well....buying a used piano really BUY AT UR OWN RISK.

stick to japan used piano age below 25years if you have to take the risk,chances is slimmer,much slimmer of torque being loose,
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/11/07 07:44 PM

Well, there are ways to do that, denpend on cost.
After choosing the piano, request it to be tuned, all unison to be perfect - good pin setting is a must.
1) Jab as hard as you can with 2nd/3rd fingers striaght on all the notes, bichord, trichord.
After a while, listen for any wild unison.
Take a tuning hammer to turn the affected pin, is it loose? If not loose, tuner didn't set pin to optimun. If it was a loose pin, it will show up early. Or spot check the common notes F3,G3, C4...

2)Use a torque wrench with tuning pin attachment to check all the pin if it is within specf. After that, you may have to pay for a tuning for the poor dealer as all notes would be out of tune... hehehe Gather the data. Determine the torque spread with afew settings. Abit extreme hor?

3)Take a risk. Smell the pins for any WD-40 or oily smell. If no smell = probably ok
Buy piano, next time tuning come to tune piano, ask if there is any loose pins. Depend on honesty, you'll get different answers.
If pins becomes so loose that it is un-tunable, then do something like technician magic lor.
Sometime loose pin doesn;t mean un-tunable, because of the friction at the pressure bar and the termination bar, it manages to maintain tension = pitch.

4) buy new lor, but high price leh.....

Buying 2nd hand risk is there, but the potential saving is there too. Applying some knowledge minimize the risk lor, right?

cheers
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/12/07 08:50 AM

I bought the 'The Piano Book' by Larry Fine. It teaches you how to choose an used piano. For the tunning pins, it says check whether the level of every pin is same and the position of the string at the pin. Hard to explain here but that is really a good book.
Posted by: funfuntrip

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/12/07 10:31 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by tses0107:
Thanks to everybody posting and advise...

I have bought my Kawai K3.. \:D

The size also suit my small HDB flat..

Now playing it almost everyday, coz I have stopped playing piano for more than 10 years..

Hope I can play well one day... [/b]
Hi All,
I am new here. I am also an adult beginner and have already attended 5 lessons but still practising on a 66-key keyboard. I am shopping for a piano, used or new, but quite inclined to getting a new one.

Hi tses0107,
Could you PM me the price you paid for the K3? Btw, is the music very loud when you played in your HDB flat? I live in a 4S HDB flat and I planned to put the piano in the living room which is not very big.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/12/07 10:39 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
I bought the 'The Piano Book' by Larry Fine. It teaches you how to choose an used piano. For the tunning pins, it says check whether the level of every pin is same and the position of the string at the pin. Hard to explain here but that is really a good book. [/b]
Otherwise known as "The Piano Bible". However, like all scripture, take with a pinch of salt. Some people think that whatever he says is the absolute truth, even when he cautions against making such assumptions. You can download the annual supplement from the book's website, for a fee.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/12/07 10:44 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by funfuntrip:
 Quote:
Originally posted by tses0107:
Thanks to everybody posting and advise...

I have bought my Kawai K3.. \:D

The size also suit my small HDB flat..

Now playing it almost everyday, coz I have stopped playing piano for more than 10 years..

Hope I can play well one day... [/b]
Hi All,
I am new here. I am also an adult beginner and have already attended 5 lessons but still practising on a 66-key keyboard. I am shopping for a piano, used or new, but quite inclined to getting a new one.

Hi tses0107,
Could you PM me the price you paid for the K3? Btw, is the music very loud when you played in your HDB flat? I live in a 4S HDB flat and I planned to put the piano in the living room which is not very big. [/b]
Welcome!

Don't worry about being loud. There are was of damping the sound somewhat (ask snoopycar). There are people who have grand pianos in HDB flats, in a bedroom no less. (Looks at wzkit, heheh)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/12/07 11:20 PM

The foldable 3 section fibre mattress type seems good. Sponge isn't so good. Stuff it behind the upright. Try with different distance, tight, some spacing. Usually 121cm above piano gets loud, but depends. My U1 us place in between 2 small windows with curtain. Seems like no need to put ant mattress behind, sound level is nice, free piano sound for downstair playground....
Posted by: tses0107

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/13/07 09:19 PM

Hi FunFunTrip,

I put my piano in my living room, I also stay at 4S flat.
Maybe its loud, but I close my door when I am playing.. so far no complaint haha... I play ard 8-10.
I ask the seller to send me the dimension, and try to figure it out in my living room.
Actually I also worry, it will be too big and take up all my spaces, but it turn out just nice.
If you want I can email you my K3 measurement.

Hi Mendo,
I paid 7k, just before the gst hike. I am not sure how much would it cost now.
I did try other model,like K8, but the price far far beyond my ability to pay \:\(
For K8 price, you top up a bit, can get baby grand already.
Yamaha I also browse, but I prefer Kawai.
Posted by: clam

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/14/07 03:24 AM

Wow I've been away from this forum for about 3 months now and it is still alive and kicking and into it's 25th page too! Congrats to all those who finally found their pianos! Me? I'm pretty happy with my 3-month old K8.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/14/07 08:17 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by clam:
Wow I've been away from this forum for about 3 months now and it is still alive and kicking and into it's 25th page too! Congrats to all those who finally found their pianos! Me? I'm pretty happy with my 3-month old K8. [/b]
Welcome back. Glad to know that your K-8 is doing better. I've heard that it can take a year for new pianos to settle in. Just play it as much as you can. The tuning will drift quite a bit during that time but will be more stable after that. I got my instrument last November and already I will be using up my third and last free tuning in a couple of week's time.

I'm also asking the tech to do some tweaking of the action. The let-off is not even across the keyboard. Drives me nuts when trying to play pianissimo.
Posted by: funfuntrip

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/14/07 10:42 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by tses0107:
Hi FunFunTrip,

I put my piano in my living room, I also stay at 4S flat.
Maybe its loud, but I close my door when I am playing.. so far no complaint haha... I play ard 8-10.
I ask the seller to send me the dimension, and try to figure it out in my living room.
Actually I also worry, it will be too big and take up all my spaces, but it turn out just nice.
If you want I can email you my K3 measurement.

Hi Mendo,
I paid 7k, just before the gst hike. I am not sure how much would it cost now.
I did try other model,like K8, but the price far far beyond my ability to pay \:\(
For K8 price, you top up a bit, can get baby grand already.
Yamaha I also browse, but I prefer Kawai. [/b]
Yes tses0107, it would be nice if you could send me the dimension of the K3. $7k before GST hike, now probably add another $150 or so. But don't know whether the price will go up after the Great Singapore Sale. Where did you buy your K3 from? Tomorrow I will pop over at Asia Piano when I meet my brother for lunch at Plaza Singapura.

Hi to all beginners here, how do you test play a piano? Do you just poke your finger at the keys or you actually play out a song from memory? I only had 5 lessons and learnt very simple songs but cannot play without song sheet. I don't see shoppers coming in with song sheets, if I bring along like so paiseh
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/14/07 12:11 PM

Yes tses0107, it would be nice if you could send me the dimension of the K3. $7k before GST hike, now probably add another $150 or so. But don't know whether the price will go up after the Great Singapore Sale. Where did you buy your K3 from? Tomorrow I will pop over at Asia Piano when I meet my brother for lunch at Plaza Singapura.

Hi to all beginners here, how do you test play a piano? Do you just poke your finger at the keys or you actually play out a song from memory? I only had 5 lessons and learnt very simple songs but cannot play without song sheet. I don't see shoppers coming in with song sheets, if I bring along like so paiseh [/QB][/QUOTE]

Hi Funfuntrip,
Come on.....you no need to feel pai seh to bring your song book and try the piano. There is NO right or wrong bringing the song sheets. There are some ppl who like to "DEMO" in the piano shop instead of trying. Perhaps i would use the word "SHOW OFF". After show off, they can't even tell the feeling of playing the piano!!!

As for me, i'll try the running notes, choromatics scales, arpeggios,and feel the key weight of the piano (that is very important to me. I'm not good in memorizing songs...but...i always play "spontaneously" which they call is "improvise" ......anyway...just a few bars with few chords.
The "feeling of touch" is very important for me when i try a piano.
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/14/07 12:20 PM

Hi funfuntrip, I really brought my music scores along when I went piano shopping. I can't memories a single song too. Don't need to feel 'paiseh' as you're the one will be playing the piano and paying the money afer all.
Posted by: singapore qualified technician

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/14/07 04:19 PM

Yes, piano has become my hobby and interest.
Actually, i didn't pay alot for the repairs(DIY you can too).
I'm a piano tech "undergrad" leh
and freelance tuner tech - hehehe.
by snoopy

mr snoopycar.i m very new in PW,you have passion for piano technology,proud of you,curious ?
btw have you try the art of tuning temprement by ear?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/14/07 08:03 PM

Hi SQTech,

Yes, i have try, but didn't succeed yet. I need to strip mute the tenor, try to set the ET bearing at the 2 octaves with 4th and 5th. Time consuming to me as i find dificulties. Tried the consecutive 3rds method.. after that i got a "machine" to jump start.

As some of the problem i encounter is learning with no-so-good pianos, the uneven tone, due to uneven wear of hammer, cause inconsistant partial of the different notes. For instance, i may hear the 5th of this interval well, but the next 4th rings differently, i got stuck trying to listen to the faint partials. When i try bearing setting on my U1, it's much easier. So due to my humble limitations, i decided to set this my future goal.

I know a "master" tuner who just use 1 mute, 1 fork, hammer and a ear+brain processor to tune a whole piano - in "can earn living timing". If i use just these, i'd take days and not even succeed.. hehehe When i found out that in tech school the standard is 1.5hrs for pitch raise aural tuning, my jaw drop. My standard is from 430 to A4 440hz in 2.2hrs, includes multiple over pull passes until system is roughly stable, then i go for fine passes, then touch up. Check with 3rds n 10ths. If incremental rolls is missing, i'll locate the off-note and troubleshoot.

For now, i use "machine" partly also due to enviroment constraint(my lame execuses \:D ). u know customers home lah.. not perfect for tuning pianos... cartoons lah, harry porters, mickey mouse.. blender machines lah, Tibs bus pasting by every few mins, fan blasting, pants sweating, flaten hammers, telephone hotline chatting. But when i gets to final fine tuning at the high treble, i try to request all external noise to mute.

Yes, that's right, i really have passion for piano technology. Perhaps you are my "mentor" at a particular piano shop i frequent and discussed tuning and regulation issues? hehehe Sorry, very busy, try to visit your shop ok??

happy tuning
enjoy piano

PS:I think i blasted my ear the other time i went for pasir laba live range and forgot to wear ear plug, after that i hear ringings in both ears for half a day.. i thought, jai-luck leow, end of piano career..
Posted by: YYGoh

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/14/07 09:27 PM

Hi, Sorry for interrupt. Happen to find this topic talking alot about Singapore piano. I think may be some members here can give me an advise of buying a piano.

I am thinking to buy a Yamaha U3. I just wonder am I able to get it below S$4000 for a used piano. How old the piano can I get from the shop? Quite confuse on this because for the price around S$4000-S$4300. I can get a U3 of serial no. above 2100000. I wonder is it fair to get this age of piano at this price which is imported directly from Japan and no recon.

Thanks in advance. I am keen to get one in this few weeks and stop searching anymore. It is a headache for me to choose within my budget for this piano.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/15/07 12:08 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by YYGoh:
Hi, Sorry for interrupt. Happen to find this topic talking alot about Singapore piano. I think may be some members here can give me an advise of buying a piano.

I am thinking to buy a Yamaha U3. I just wonder am I able to get it below S$4000 for a used piano. How old the piano can I get from the shop? Quite confuse on this because for the price around S$4000-S$4300. I can get a U3 of serial no. above 2100000. I wonder is it fair to get this age of piano at this price which is imported directly from Japan and no recon.

Thanks in advance. I am keen to get one in this few weeks and stop searching anymore. It is a headache for me to choose within my budget for this piano. [/b]
i would say this price for u3 is quite high. S/N at 2M is something 30yrs or more. no recon doens't mean the parts like the strings have been replaced. unless the condition is near pristine and good, you'd be better of getting something closer to 5M. i've seen one around 4M at 5k. if you are still keen on the one you'd seen, be prepared to write off your 4k in 5-10 years time.

normally the dealer would give some discount from the 1st quoted price. 5-15% would be a gauge depending on the unit you are looking at.
you may get more if you are paying all by cash.

More importantly you must get one that has the better conditions and sounds. buying from a reputable outlet would be the first step. buy back guarantee doesn't mean a thing. If what you get is a real deal, then in 5 years time, the piano still won't need any repair, unless you need to trade in if you don't like it after a few weeks.

hope this helps...
Posted by: YYGoh

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/15/07 01:15 AM

Thanks Mendo,

I don't know whether the shop is reputable but there are some members did mention about them. Then, how about if the U1 serial no nearly 2800000 and qouted me around S$3200.

For the piano I am considering I will definitely won't think about resale it. I am just worried whether it will last me long.

Thanks a lot
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/15/07 03:33 AM

My 1st piano was tuned by a tech that tune by solely his ears. No equipment at all and he could tell me that my old old piano still not to concert pitch yet and will quite a number of tunning to get there. He did the job in about 1 hour. That time my piano was put in my father's motorcycle shop, imagine those noices. Really a good tech but i lost contact with him so can't really find him now.
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/15/07 08:00 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by YYGoh:
Thanks Mendo,

I don't know whether the shop is reputable but there are some members did mention about them. Then, how about if the U1 serial no nearly 2800000 and qouted me around S$3200.

For the piano I am considering I will definitely won't think about resale it. I am just worried whether it will last me long.

Thanks a lot [/b]
2.8m is still something close to 30yrs. have you check properly the piano yourself? at this price no point getting a pianoetch to check. even if you get one, the person may also most likely know the dealer.

for what i've seen and read in this forum, the piano from the era you mentioned, are slightly on the better side.

a few simple clues to help you (you may find many more in this forum):

1. hit the last left note firmly. is the sound firm and deep and still have sweet resonance? if not, forget it.

2. run all the keys including the black ones (take your time) in 3 modes, soft, medium and hard. are all the notes have the same tone, color and loudness? if not, forget it.

3. are any keys sticky? like the key takes some time to lift up after pressing? old yamahas are known to have this problem. if yes, forget it.

4. open up the piano and check the hammers for thickness and evenness, strings, frame and tuning pins for rust, the board for any small cracks...


i'm not sure what level you are at now. the price you pay also depends what you wanna out from your toy. you may need to change in a few years time, if needed.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/15/07 08:38 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
My 1st piano was tuned by a tech that tune by solely his ears. No equipment at all and he could tell me that my old old piano still not to concert pitch yet and will quite a number of tunning to get there. He did the job in about 1 hour. That time my piano was put in my father's motorcycle shop, imagine those noices. Really a good tech but i lost contact with him so can't really find him now. [/b]
That's a true master tuner!!
jarjar, your dad's motorcycle shop is the first to have a piano in workshop!! thumbs up. Hope the mechanic didn't greased the keys... hehehe

When i schedule is less hectic, i'll re-learn my tuning from machine to aural, I'm inspired to be next generation aural tuner in 5years time
Posted by: YYGoh

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/15/07 11:35 AM

Thanks a lot, Mendo. Your tips will help me a lot definitely.

At least now I know may be I am still able to find a piano within my budget.

It is really great to have this thread. I can learn a lot from here and getting some advise.

many thanks and wish all the best to you.
Posted by: singapore qualified technician

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/15/07 01:57 PM

I don't know whether the shop is reputable but there are some members did mention about them. Then, how about if the U1 serial no nearly 2800000 and qouted me around S$3200.

For the piano I am considering I will definitely won't think about resale it. I am just worried whether it will last me long.
by yy goh.

reply to u :U3A or U30 is the piano you should consider (they are 20years and below,you have to pay more ,maybe you can ask the dealer for a end user and buyer kind of deal(no gaurantee,tuning,and etc,etc which they provide)he might consider to lower price,give and take,
and i will be glad for you rather then you buy a U3h which in my opinion is on a little old side,
forget about U3M they only in production for 2 years (younger then U3h older then U3A)

please test the lower bass and confrim is the tone still singing stronly or not?(sorry sound hard to describe by words)
i have seen yamaha with serial nos only 5 digits or 6 digit which is way to old to consider,2 pedals,with the word y,,,,, on the right size facing you,some unprofessional dealer i guess dump these piano in our shore(my colleage just tune one in ubi ave recently.so sad to see these pianos in sg,wondering who are the people who imported these junk.
Posted by: singapore qualified technician

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/15/07 02:19 PM

When i schedule is less hectic, i'll re-learn my tuning from machine to aural, I'm inspired to be next generation aural tuner in 5years time
post by snoopycar.

by aural 1st of all -temprement or some tech called scaling must be taught,and sorry to say this have to be taught tough to learn youself as u wont know you are right or wrong,major 3th fast or too slow,

what i was told is that if you cant tune a piano by ear to a certain high level of expectation then its better to tune it by scope(of course not a cheap guitar tuner,i meant a full range piano tuning scope )

u have a real good sense of humour,tis place came alive because of you.techie"
Posted by: singapore qualified technician

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/15/07 02:34 PM

post by mendo originally
no point getting a pianoetch to check. even if you get one, the person may also most likely know the dealer.

many of the technician(not all )in singapore.will hold their own opinion wheather they know the dealer or not,you just have you get the ethical ones,ask them sincerely that u pay them a apprisal fee,will they do it.also ask the dealer ,would they mind a technician to inspect,narrowdown the one who weclomes u.

btw FYI there use to be a 2nd trader in sg, operating from home,(for many years in old airpot road ,thomson rise,n maybe bukit timah area)he will cut you off once you intend to bring a technician,just buy and sell,many buyers was sold by him.
Posted by: singapore qualified technician

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/15/07 02:59 PM

original by deloris
How should we know whether the tuning pin of the used piano is good or not? We cant ask the tuner to check b4 we buy, rite

buying a tuning wrench is not viable,and you still need a tech to turn it,although tis the best method.
i suggest you buy a tuning fork A 440c/s few dollars.test the A nos 49 keys and compare it with the tuning fork(if they sounds at the same frequency most likely its safe and also play the cromatic scale are they sounding right.
tips for you :to test the dealers professionlism.
many traders dont prepare a concert pitch standard piano ,
each of you play the same note on different piano at the same time .eg A49 together,you can hear do they sound the same .same frequency should sound the same if not forget it.
buying a new or used its same thing ,you need to tune to standard pitch of A440c/s the shop should do this if they really care for your child,affect her hearing if play too long on a wrong pitch piano,hearing test will be bad,
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/15/07 11:32 PM

Ya lor... SQtech, how come you post so early in the morning? Due to strong coffee? Cheers, i think we are on the same track, to service and tune pianos in SG with honesty and pride...
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/16/07 02:31 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by singapore qualified technician:
post by mendo originally
no point getting a pianoetch to check. even if you get one, the person may also most likely know the dealer.

many of the technician(not all )in singapore.will hold their own opinion wheather they know the dealer or not,you just have you get the ethical ones,ask them sincerely that u pay them a apprisal fee,will they do it.also ask the dealer ,would they mind a technician to inspect,narrowdown the one who weclomes u.

btw FYI there use to be a 2nd trader in sg, operating from home,(for many years in old airpot road ,thomson rise,n maybe bukit timah area)he will cut you off once you intend to bring a technician,just buy and sell,many buyers was sold by him. [/b]
Yah lor, why like that. For buyers who'd like to bring a piano tech along, just pretend he's your friend or brother lor. The seller should not be intimidated and be open about the sales. Who knows, it may be to his benefit. If the tech see a good piano, he will recommend others to the seller too.

Even if the piano is not tip top, but it may still sound great (minus the cosmetic) Ever play a looks great but sounds bad piano? But it piano is not good, worn out with "beef floss", sound bad, it should not be on sale in the first place.

I feel shop or private sale should welcome 2nd opinion from tech. They could disagree or agree and end result is to understand the needs of the customer more as a result. (a chance for the tech to sell service too, touch regulation, voicing..)
If the tech reflect that piano isn't worth the $$, at least the seller knows that he might have over priced a bit.

But tech must be non bias of course lah, cannot under table ok? How about asking the tech to wear a mask or put on a moustach so that the deal can't recognize him? How about blind fold the tech so that he doesn't know which dealer you are bring him to? When you reach there, put a black cloth tent over the piano for him to inspect under it, the dealer must remain outside and their identity withheld?

I think you all must be laughing by now.. hehehe
Posted by: mendo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/16/07 09:43 AM

anyone here hire alvin who sells sauters to tune kawais or yamahas? how's the outcome?

talked once to him over the phone and found he really know his stuff. can describe the actual state of my old piano just be conversing....
Posted by: funfuntrip

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/16/07 10:31 AM

Visited some shops and found these.....

1. Ellington Deluxe model (new at $4600), German parts, made in Korea.

2. Karl Schonberg KU121 (new at $5800) and KU131 (new at $6500) both made in Korea, and uncle said Karl Schonberg is a German Company bought over by the Korean.

3. Yamaha U2 (used about 35yo at $3200), felt and hammers replaced, board and strings (uncle said these are crucial parts) original.

4. Yamaha U10H (new at $6k+), made in Indonesia, not of spruce wood.

I would most appreciate it to hear your views on the above made and prices. Will be visiting some more shops to see see touch touch other make. Yet to see the Kawai K3.
Posted by: singapore qualified technician

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/16/07 01:52 PM

1. Ellington Deluxe model (new at $4600), German parts, made in Korea.
ans:i thought its made in china

3. Yamaha U2 (used about 35yo at $3200), felt and hammers replaced, board and strings (uncle said these are crucial parts) original.
ans : try consider U1 or U3 and younger ones please,as U2 have been dicountinue production many years ago.age a little concern
4. Yamaha U10H (new at $6k+), made in Indonesia, not of spruce wood.
ans: should be U10J soundboard is laminated spruce thats why cheaper than a solid spruce one.
Posted by: rzz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/16/07 09:00 PM

Hi,
I have to aplogise for interupting. I need some advise. I have actually enrolled my daughter (6 yrs old) for Yamaha junior course and she's been there close to 2 yrs now. The problem is she's way behind her peers in sight reading.
She's basically memorising the songs by heart. Is that the correct way?

Morever, she refused to come out to play the piano when it's her turn and shred tears every lessons. She's ok at home though, practising the songs.

I am at a loss what to do since it's abt 2 mths more to her exams.

I dont have a piano at home, basically she practises using the keybroad and we are hesitating in buying a piano as it can be a huge investment and it can go to a waste if she doesnt want to continue.

Does anyone faces similiar problems when it comes to kids?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/16/07 09:51 PM

I empathize with you. Every child has different ablilties and timings. Keyboard is OK. The love for music cannot be obstructed. Don't have to focus too much on exams. Hastening results could be futile at this stage.

As for real account. Last sunday i tuned a petrof. The pianist is an 8year girl. I notice a stack of 12" high music books on top of piano. After i tuned, ashlyn plays many songs from memory, little bach here, little jazz there, some counterpoints. I'm amazed, seems she likes piano music well. Her younger brother haven't take up lesson yet, but anyhow press the keys but sound like fusion jazz already... hahaha
She even pose for me to take a pic! As i was waiting for the lift, her playing fills the neighbour corridors.. thumbs up.

Interestingly, when i enquire her mom, she is only in grade 1 and taking exams soon. But, like you, her child took the 2 year yamaha course(i need to attend these course). So, this really strikes me. The yamaha children development course is doing it's part in developing budding pianist is well establish working model. And the thing is they bought this 131petrof only a year earlierm meaning she uses a keyboard too at the learning stage.

Do worry, not to pressure her if she isn't ready for mini recital or exams. Give her a hug and tells her it's ok, tell mommy or daddy when you are ready. Giving her phobia is the last thing you'd wanna do. Slowly expose her abilities. Encourage her to "preform" to family members, applaud everytime as a reward.

Be patience. The aim of music is a life long learning journey, instill into the heart of those chosen to be musician. I constantly hear piano owner saying, my children is grade 8, but now as grown ups in 30s, has given up or stop playing completely.... sad.

cheer up
Posted by: singapore qualified technician

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/16/07 10:13 PM

original by rzz
The problem is she's way behind her peers in sight reading.
She's basically memorising the songs by heart. Is that the correct way?

thers not right or wrong on the above,agree with snoopycar/after 2 years she have aquire good sense of hearing and most likely aleady have music appreciation in her .
she will enjoy piano more then many childs whom simply start piano the traditinal way,
music is to enjoy,dont stress her n yourself,(i knew of many grade 8 player,without a score they can play(do you want your child to be like this?

since she have aquired sense of hearing,its important that the piano you invest in future must be tune to A440 c.p.s (international standard pitch)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/17/07 12:19 AM

Talking about piano playing, i have some more interesting observations.

It about problem solving skills development.
How do you breaks up a difficult task into sections. After overcoming the individual section, how do you connects it up. How do you transform the mechanical playing to and enjoyable musical moment?

It's also about finding the right teacher to strengthen the weak areas you have. Another encouraging story i heard is this play can't sight read well, but can memorize, doesn't take exams, no grade. So end up he could play at road shows demos. In real life, he's a lawyer.
What about the aeronautic engineer story ......

Perhaps its time to get an Acoustic Piano Like U1 and you're halfway there already.

Come to think of it U1 sounds like YOU-WANT. Yes you-want, buy me now......

Then U2 sounds like YOU-TOO, yes you want to buy 1 too.

U3 sounds like Are YOU-FREE.. no i'm busy tonight.

Don't buy U5 coz it sounds like U're Fired... hahaha

cheers
Posted by: pianist.ame

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/17/07 01:40 AM

"Yah lor, why like that. For buyers who'd like to bring a piano tech along, just pretend he's your friend or brother lor. The seller should not be intimidated and be open about the sales. Who knows, it may be to his benefit. If the tech see a good piano, he will recommend others to the seller too."
haha...sorry I can't help it! Singlish lol. I'm singaporean too...

I took the yamaha course when I was a little kid too for about 5 years, although they never corrected my flat fingers, I know it did my alot of good. I really taught me to love music and made a difference to my life as compared to many other kids
Posted by: tses0107

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/17/07 05:16 AM

Hi Fun Fun Trip,

Sorry, late reply. Me not online for some days.

Kawai K3 dimension:
Height 48" (122 cm)
Width 60" (150 cm)
Depth 24" (59 cm)
Weight 483 lbs. (219 kg)

I also can't really play the music with out the song sheet.
I have stopped playing for more than 10 yrs. Now start again.
All the fingers are hard already..
Usually i just try the scales, I feel scales is good, you can feel all the tune.

I also cant afford to pay the whole sum in 1 go. I do the installement by the credit card.
You may check with the store.

Hope you can find the good piano that suits you..
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/17/07 12:24 PM

Hi rzz,

You should not be worrying too much about her sight-reading skill at this time. I am sure she will improve with more practice.

What you should focus now is on learning the correct fingering. Make sure she don't learn the bad habit of playing with flat fingers. No good. It will be difficult for her to unlearn the mistakes in her later years.

Don't be stingy about getting a good acoustic piano. Think of long-term benefit.
Go for a piano with a good tone and medium touch (not too hard or soft).

... and most importantly, get a private piano teacher, who is qualified (LRSM) and good in human management skill.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/17/07 07:12 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Amelialw:
"Yah lor, why like that. For buyers who'd like to bring a piano tech along, just pretend he's your friend or brother lor. The seller should not be intimidated and be open about the sales. Who knows, it may be to his benefit. If the tech see a good piano, he will recommend others to the seller too."
haha...sorry I can't help it! Singlish lol. I'm singaporean too...

I took the yamaha course when I was a little kid too for about 5 years, although they never corrected my flat fingers, I know it did my alot of good. I really taught me to love music and made a difference to my life as compared to many other kids [/b]
Wow, i like the Bach Partita.....
http://www.audiolunchbox.com/album?a=24073
What should the tempo of Capriccio?
BACH: Partita No. 2 in C minor, BWV 826 - Capriccio
I have one mp3 in my handphone thats so fast, the one play in the link seems 3 time slower...

hehehe, yes the singlish makes this thread unique, less former tone, more fun. I heard from my friends angmors here speaks with lahs and lors too nowadays. Join in, don't paisay lah...

Anyway, i wish i was enroll into the yamahahaha junior course when i was young. No chance to be a teacher at my age now. But somehow i mananage to learn some intermediate song and loving the piano everyday, epecially weekends when it's ok to play anytime in the day hours without volume restraints.

Hmmm Canada, long way from home huh? The usual question, do you miss chay kuey teow, roasted chicken rice, haimanese oily chicken rice, rojak, durian, ice kachang, ice cheng teng, wanton mee... char siew rice, ban mien, ngo hiang bee hoon... ok i'll stop here to prevent you from drooling further.. or do you have a hawker center there selling all these already?
Tiong bahru hawker have rebuilt you know??

Ah ha... canada had a famous Bach specialist call GG, i wished 2% og me can play like him.

Good advise, hope rzz will take it easy and be encouraged.
Posted by: rzz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/17/07 09:01 PM

Hi there,
I'm glad I found this forum. Really appreciate all your comments and advise.
Been ignorant,I would never have thought about LRSM when hiring a private tutor.

I dont have any music background, it may sound stupid, what do you mean by flat fingers? and in any event shd I invest in a acoustic or a digital piano? My hubby is more hands up for the digital as he feels that there wont be any tuning required and the sound effect is the same. Maintenance, will be much easier.

When will be a gd time to start her off on a 1-1 basis? She will be completing her 2 year course in Sep.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/18/07 12:14 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rzz:
Hi there,
I'm glad I found this forum. Really appreciate all your comments and advise.
Been ignorant,I would never have thought about LRSM when hiring a private tutor.

I dont have any music background, it may sound stupid, what do you mean by flat fingers? and in any event shd I invest in a acoustic or a digital piano? My hubby is more hands up for the digital as he feels that there wont be any tuning required and the sound effect is the same. Maintenance, will be much easier.

When will be a gd time to start her off on a 1-1 basis? She will be completing her 2 year course in Sep. [/b]
Hi rzz, welcome to the forum, and to our Uniquely Singaporean (TM) thread.

An acoustic piano and digital piano are most definitely NOT the same. I have both and I can assure you that for piano music, a decent acoustic instrument beats a digital piano hands down.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/18/07 02:09 AM

can i add...... but the acoustic piano gotta be of decent brand, tone and touch in the first place, then only it can beat the digital hands down(spanking + yee haa).. hehehe
Posted by: funfuntrip

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/18/07 03:05 AM

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/17651.html

Quote clam "...They had this anniversary offer when I bought the K8 so I paid $11K+ for the K8...."

>>>> Hi clam, what makes you finally decide on the K8?

>>>> Hi SQtech, understand that K50 is being replaced by the K5. Does that mean it is better to buy the K5 instead of the K50 as the latter would be discontinued in production just like the U2?

This afternoon went to see the K3, K5 and K50 at Centrepoint. Got the salesperson to play on the K3 and K50. Lovely!
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/18/07 03:55 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
can i add...... but the acoustic piano gotta be of decent brand, tone and touch in the first place, then only it can beat the digital hands down(spanking + yee haa).. hehehe [/b]
One thing that a digital piano can NEVER do is provide you with the tone intermodulation that an acoustic piano can. It also cannot imitate the effect of the damper (sustain) pedal. That's why I bought an acoustic piano last November, after years of feeling dissastisfied with a digital keyboard.
Posted by: pianist.ame

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/19/07 01:22 AM

 Quote:
Wow, i like the Bach Partita.....
http://www.audiolunchbox.com/album?a=24073
What should the tempo of Capriccio?
BACH: Partita No. 2 in C minor, BWV 826 - Capriccio
I have one mp3 in my handphone thats so fast, the one play in the link seems 3 time slower...

hehehe, yes the singlish makes this thread unique, less former tone, more fun. I heard from my friends angmors here speaks with lahs and lors too nowadays. Join in, don't paisay lah...

Anyway, i wish i was enroll into the yamahahaha junior course when i was young. No chance to be a teacher at my age now. But somehow i mananage to learn some intermediate song and loving the piano everyday, epecially weekends when it's ok to play anytime in the day hours without volume restraints.

Hmmm Canada, long way from home huh? The usual question, do you miss chay kuey teow, roasted chicken rice, haimanese oily chicken rice, rojak, durian, ice kachang, ice cheng teng, wanton mee... char siew rice, ban mien, ngo hiang bee hoon... ok i'll stop here to prevent you from drooling further.. or do you have a hawker center there selling all these already?
Tiong bahru hawker have rebuilt you know??

Ah ha... canada had a famous Bach specialist call GG, i wished 2% og me can play like him.

Good advise, hope rzz will take it easy and be encouraged.
Haha....thanks lah! Would like to help you with the Bach Partita in C minor (Capriccio) but i've only learnt the Sinfonia besides I have enough to learn now!

Yup, to be exact Canada is 18 hours away from Singapore by plane...so far arh. I miss singapore alot lor, here you can't get food as good for 2 or 3 dollars if you get the same you'll probably pay about $12 singapore dollars which is crazy...
Posted by: pianist.ame

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/19/07 01:23 AM

we should have a musician's thread just for singaporeans ...
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/19/07 02:44 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Amelialw:
we should have a musician's thread just for singaporeans ... [/b]
Oh come on.............include malaysian too!!!!! we r so near! :p
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/19/07 02:59 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rzz:
Hi,
I have to aplogise for interupting. I need some advise. I have actually enrolled my daughter (6 yrs old) for Yamaha junior course and she's been there close to 2 yrs now. The problem is she's way behind her peers in sight reading.
She's basically memorising the songs by heart. Is that the correct way?

Morever, she refused to come out to play the piano when it's her turn and shred tears every lessons. She's ok at home though, practising the songs.

I am at a loss what to do since it's abt 2 mths more to her exams.

I dont have a piano at home, basically she practises using the keybroad and we are hesitating in buying a piano as it can be a huge investment and it can go to a waste if she doesnt want to continue.

Does anyone faces similiar problems when it comes to kids? [/b]
Hi Rzz,
i would like to share some of my thoughts on ur child case. I personally feel that, kids specially young kid....age 4-6 will prefer to memorizing songs instead of play while looking at the score. For eg: twinkle twinkle little star. They knew how does the song being sing or sound, so they will "assume" that is the song they hear and that is the way they should play, which is not correct.

Some kids also will ask their teacher to play or demo a particular song to them 1st, before they themselves try out on the piano. Well, don't be surprise a good player can only play by ears and not reading any notes from the song book.

As for me, i'm a lazy bum too because so many "taugeh" on the score...sometimes feel very frustrated and lasy to count!!!!!!!!!!!! hahaha.... however, i found out that, if i read notes more often, when ever there is a new piece to put infront of me, i can play it just like i've practise the song b4. Most of us will be scare if there is a new song put infront of us, and say "pls play this song" . Well,the 1st thing in the mind will be "Die...nv play this song b4...how la...later play wrong notes....so pai seh...wah...so many sharp and flats......"

I prefer to learn from the book, then memorize. If i make some mistake....i can figure out which bar i was.

Those were my thoughts.............. :rolleyes:
Posted by: singapore qualified technician

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/19/07 03:07 AM

Hi SQtech, understand that K50 is being replaced by the K5. Does that mean it is better to buy the K5 instead of the K50 as the latter would be discontinued in production just like the U2?

the new k5 i yet to try so cant commend how good or better then assisting or not i really dont know,maybe any kawai technician from japan pls comment .

but 1 typical example, of yamaha (A) U1 9 to 15 years old,compare to a (B) 1 to 5 years old,i kind of like the 9 to 15 years one by toner quality,
and 1 big different i check is the back post or the pillar of the piano ,piano A is made of solid wood where as piano B is all join by thin pieces of wood together,
lets request some comparision from some technician who are well versed with these 2 piano to comments,helps please any technician out there
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/19/07 05:09 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by singapore qualified technician:
Hi SQtech, understand that K50 is being replaced by the K5. Does that mean it is better to buy the K5 instead of the K50 as the latter would be discontinued in production just like the U2?

the new k5 i yet to try so cant commend how good or better then assisting or not i really dont know,maybe any kawai technician from japan pls comment .

but 1 typical example, of yamaha (A) U1 9 to 15 years old,compare to a (B) 1 to 5 years old,i kind of like the 9 to 15 years one by toner quality,
and 1 big different i check is the back post or the pillar of the piano ,piano A is made of solid wood where as piano B is all join by thin pieces of wood together,
lets request some comparision from some technician who are well versed with these 2 piano to comments,helps please any technician out there [/b]
Discontinued.... sound like the Honda Concerto model years ago... in hokkien, it sounds like KongSiToh, company bankrupt!! hahakaka

Why Kawai offer so many models? So many updates.
Super confusing man... is there a table of models, year and specf available?
Is like, yes we have a 1.6L engine model, what you want??? ABS?? EDB??? SRS Airbag??? 16"wheels or stock 15"?? you want spare steering wheel??? oh you want this, that'll be this model x code x options = model number.

Yamaha models are easier to select.
U1J = Altis
U1 = corolla - made in Jeepon
U3 = Picnic
U5 = ESTIMA
No question, all models have SRS, ABS,
bridgestone tyres, leather seat, nonolux solarfilm, 100000km warranty, free 3 servicing.
Posted by: pianist.ame

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/19/07 03:26 PM

[/QUOTE] Hi,
I have to aplogise for interupting. I need some advise. I have actually enrolled my daughter (6 yrs old) for Yamaha junior course and she's been there close to 2 yrs now. The problem is she's way behind her peers in sight reading.
She's basically memorising the songs by heart. Is that the correct way?
Morever, she refused to come out to play the piano when it's her turn and shred tears every lessons. She's ok at home though, practising the songs.
I am at a loss what to do since it's abt 2 mths more to her exams.
I dont have a piano at home, basically she practises using the keybroad and we are hesitating in buying a piano as it can be a huge investment and it can go to a waste if she doesnt want to continue.
Does anyone faces similiar problems when it comes to kids? [QUOTE]

One thing about little kids, majority of them always memorize things really easily, you shoul'dnt let your little girl do that though, because it will become a habit. One thing that might help alot would be for you to buy a pack of notecards, make up a system for her to learn the notes properly. I have 2 6 year old students I used this for and they found it really fun or really motivating.

Yes I have come across many little kids like that, I myself used to be like that. The reason why i'm telling you that you should correct this problem is that no one corrected me till I was 16 when I came to canada. When I started under my present teacher, she noticed that I was playing everything by heart so I had to relearn many skills, technique etc...

Maybe your little girl feels shy having to play the keyboard in front or with so many peers. Maybe you should consider enrolling her with a private teacher.
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/21/07 09:33 AM

I think every child has their own way. Just let them develope naturally, don't measure them using the normal progressing standard.
I have been with my private tutor for about 9 months now. She will spend 30-40 minutes in every lesson to teach me skills and technics such as how to use the correct force. I don't have to do those scales and arpegios. I can't remember any scores even during my low grade days, I think that's why my sight reading is pretty good.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/23/07 02:20 AM

Glad to hear that all of you are enjoying playing piano - what a wonderful instrument for a wide range of skills from simple Bach minute in G to Piano concertos \:D

Lets stand up for 10sec and clap 10times to the invention of the pianoforte!! n sit down n get back to work !!!!

*music to the soul
Posted by: rzz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/24/07 08:54 PM

Hi,
thank you all for your valueable advise. My girl will end her 2 years course in Yamaha in Sept and after a chat with most of the parents in class, it seems no one will be continuing the group class afterwhich.

Most of them will be enrolling for a 1-1 lesson with a private teacher. Now I m considering that as well. I heard that 1-1 lesson only abt 0.5hr. Is that sufficent?

Anyone knows a school that conducts 1-1 and what are the costs like?

thanks
Posted by: pianist.ame

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/24/07 09:03 PM

half- an hour is sufficent especially for a 6 yrs old kid. Kids are not able to concentrate for longer time spans like teens or adults.

Commonwealth Plaza has a music school with private music teachers. My sister's friend teaches there. i might be able to find out what the rates are like.
Posted by: rzz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/25/07 09:15 PM

Hi,

Anyone can tell me, what do you think of BS-1A, 13 years old kawai, selling for $3,500?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/26/07 09:53 AM

hehehe..... my dream have come true
The brand is "Steal Chicken" in chinese
To, steal.
Kai, chicken.
What a strange name. It's 170cm, and the cheapest japanese grand i can find. It is fully financed from the tunings i earned.. hehehe



tuning hammer shaping, aligment, regulating, voicing in progress
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/26/07 10:47 AM

Oh, a Tokai piano! Congralation!
Posted by: rzz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/26/07 08:42 PM

Wow! congratulations! It's very impressive.

I need some assistance here regarding purchasing a piano as I m clueless when it comes to buying a 2nd hand piano.

U3 1043320 (abt 30year old) - $2800.00
Kawai 13 years Bs- 1A - $3500.00

any one got any views on this? I need some recommendation on a 1-1 private tutor for my girl as well.. I'm staying in sengkang and currently I do not have a piano at home, just a keybroad. My girl is 6 and her gp lessons will end this sept.
It will make sense for me to send her to the tutor home very saturday for practise. Anyone can help me? Anyone knows any school that conducts 1-1. Looking for a patient and loving female teacher, my girl is extremely shy and cried in class often during her 2 years in yamaha.

I'm getting a headache looking for teacher.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/26/07 09:24 PM

rzz,

As always, we try our best to help.
Pianos, like cars, you need to test drive it, ECP, CTE, BKE, mount faber slop(QQ cannot make it), listen to road noise, engine noise, suspension comfort, power steering, steering feedback, braking power...

For pianos, at least press a few notes at the center portion, listen to the tone, if it's harsh or comfortable. Press the key to feel it response to different finger strength.... see the inside for any serious wear and tear... hammer wear.... and 30 other items to check!!! so many things to check before deciding which piano to buy.

I'm afraid nobody dare to suggest which model is better before looking, hearing and touching it.
But generally, both Yamaha and Kawai are reputable and reliable brands, just like toyota and honda.

Where did you see this 2 model?
Perhaps if i pass by, i can check it out and give you a mini review? the exterior is only 5% of the total score.

For tutoring 1-1... i might not help much.
I have a client's daugther studying grade 5. Teacher is australian, come to her place, 1 session $60, so 1 mth is about $240.
Maybe grade 1 no need so expensive. Average 1-1 student home teaching is ~$80-100. But from what i know, have to hunt around as teachers are always fully booked. Wonder why, too many student? not enough teachers? don't know...

Amelia, any news for rzz?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/26/07 09:46 PM

Hi rzz, you've got Private Mail!!

i'll sent you 2 teachers contacts referal by my cousin to you. Do call them and check it out \:D
Posted by: rzz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/27/07 03:00 AM

Hi snoopycar,

Thank you for your recommendation. called up the 2 teachers, unfortunately they are much too far? Anyone you know in the east area?

thks.
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/27/07 11:36 AM

Rzz,

Try these websites for list of piano teachers:

http://www.smtasingapore.com/main.php

or

http://www.musicstaff.com/lounge/viewInter.asp?country=182
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/30/07 02:06 AM

What's happening..... \:D

Wanton Noodle good recommendation!
Cantonese "Botak" at upper pierce reservoir kopi shop. The char siew and chilli is marvellous. Try the prawn dumpling too. After 5pm, free parking.

yawn......
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/30/07 11:39 AM

Does anyone know where to find Baldwin (new & old) upright piano in Singapore ?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/31/07 05:00 AM

Wow, Baldwin Piano... hunt for you lor
Where's your U1?
Could kindly share with us how come you're looking for a special brand piano? Is it the tone is special? Looks? Nostalgic? Powderful?
Broadway sound?

thks
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 07/31/07 12:16 PM

I had the chance to play an upright Baldwin when I was in America. Was amazed by the clear and powerful tone.

Wonder why nobody mention this brand. Most of the discussion are mostly focused on Japanese or German made piano.

My U1 is still with me. Still trying to get used to the tone, which is rather volatile. Hates it when it sounds bright. Must be the humidity ...
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/03/07 06:54 AM

Hi NW

I found a old Baldwin for you, about 115 or 120cm not too sure. It's exterior need to be done up. But the inside Action looks ok. It's low price before "spring cleaning" If you're keen, i can pass you the contacts. You can speak to the shop owner and see how much he charge to the job \:D







cheers
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/03/07 11:17 AM

HI snoopycar, so how do you feel about the Baldwin? Please share your comments. How is your grand doing? Is it a new one? How much u paid for u? More pic pls?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/03/07 02:54 PM

Hi jarjar, the baldwin wasn't in good shape to determine, it need to go through army training first.. hehehe. Well it wasn't in tuned as it was left as it is, it need to be clean up, tune up, regulate before i can tell how good it is. But as i press some keys, it sounds.. at least the soundboard is working, haha.

Need to ask if NW is interested to invest first and find out what's his budget to get it up.

Oh my grand? it's second hand lah, action is a little noisy, little click clark here and there, "cheap" "cheap"... but it play ok. Keytouch is more meaty. Sound is different from upright as the sound comes from the front and it's loud - free piano music(noise) for the neighbours.

Wait, after i polish the strings, then i post more ok? it's just an ordinary piano design horizontally - like apollo chocolate. Kawai is like cadbury !!!

can we have your pic too, pose with the K.Kawai lah... ok go go
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/03/07 05:23 PM

Thanks snoopy for taking the trouble...

No lah, that Baldwin looks as if it needs an "extreme" makeover. :-p
By the way, where is that shop ? Are there any Baldwin authorized dealer in S'pore ?

Surprise to see a "Shroud" in your website. I used to have one too. Bought it from "Eagle Piano". It comes with 3 pedals. Tone is on the brighter side. Touch is rather stiff and heavy.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/04/07 12:13 AM

No problems; it's an export piano, meaning the condition is as-is. Probably not many baldwin buyer for a "extreme make over" hehehe, waiting for sponsors.. Not so extreme lah, too exagrated leow. I'm not sure of any baldwin authorize dealer here. I PM you lor.

Yah, there are still some Shroud around, getting rare each day, even the old kemble is getting arthrittis, hehehe

Stick to the U1(my favortie) Try to overcome the pp part. Do you want to put bean bags at the key rear to make your U1 touch heavier? \:D wah-haha
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/04/07 09:57 AM

Thanks for the update snoopycar. I just noticed that you have a website. The pictures are amazing and I saw there is a Bosendorfer? Thank you NW for highlighting. I think the white Nordiska is nice.

Now is a little update on my Kawai GM10. I just got my 1st tuning after it has been delivered about 6 weeks. Everything went fine until the tech adjusted the sustain pedal. While he was adjusting the pedal, I highlighted to him that the pedal is noisy. Then he put a little piece of cloth on it to try to damper the sound. Even it is small but I still can hear the sound. After he went off, I tried my piano. Oh my gosh, the pedal is disturing! I keep on hearing 'tuk tuk' and 'yik yik' sound from it. Maybe it could be like that on my previous Challen but definately not on the Kawai baby grand. I don't mind the pedal is a bit heavy but no point to adjust it if there is extra noise coming out from the pedal. Sounds should only come out from the soundboard and not the pedal.

I was so excited to wait till the piano get tuned but now i don't feel like i want to touch it because of the 'tuk tuk yik yik' sound.

Jess, it this the best tech you have?
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/04/07 10:09 AM

Snooycar,
I just read the 'About' in your website. You had a Steiner b4? My very 1st piano was a Steiner too! I bought it for RM2500 in 1990 from a 2nd hand piano dealer. It had been with me until last year which I sold it for RM1000 to my colleague and got the Challen. I dunno its country of origin and that time, the dealer said it was French made. . Anyway, I was just 15 back then.

Still nobody to take the picture of me with my Kawai yet \:\(
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/04/07 02:41 PM

Hi jarjar, during that time, i still didn't know about yamaha piano yet, i thought yamaha only makes motorcycle as i was riding a RD125Lc that time. But heard from my wify, in JB last time, they only knew yamaha makes piano!! So opposite from my knowledge.

Did tech try to adjust the damper pedal stopper?
Ask tech to check it out when he pass by. Leverage point works best pivioting, should rub against side. yik yik yak yak, aiyo so annoying.. play piece pedal-less for the time being.

Aiyo... nowadays even phone camera got self-timer mah... nevermind lah, i know u shy to be in the forum... not like me thick skin \:D (let you off)

Recommend you 1 nice song, Richard clayderman Souvenirs D' enfrance.
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/04/07 03:05 PM

HI snoopycar, I already know the song. But I also only knows Yamaha makes motorcycle coz my father sells it. I didn't know they make pianos at that time.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/04/07 03:21 PM

oh.. not bad huh u too know this song, nice song must share right?

Can i survey? for knowledge purpose.
How long was the tuning? 1hr?
Is it touch up or full tuning?
By ear or scope?
New piano usually take a few tuning session for tension and soundboard to stablize..

thks
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 02:33 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Hi jarjar, during that time, i still didn't know about yamaha piano yet, i thought yamaha only makes motorcycle as i was riding a RD125Lc that time. But heard from my wify, in JB last time, they only knew yamaha makes piano!! So opposite from my knowledge.

Did tech try to adjust the damper pedal stopper?
Ask tech to check it out when he pass by. Leverage point works best pivioting, should rub against side. yik yik yak yak, aiyo so annoying.. play piece pedal-less for the time being.

Aiyo... nowadays even phone camera got self-timer mah... nevermind lah, i know u shy to be in the forum... not like me thick skin \:D (let you off)

Recommend you 1 nice song, Richard clayderman Souvenirs D' enfrance.
[/b]
RICHARD CLAYDERMAN............!!!!!!!! The Charming prince!!!! 1 of my favorite song too!
Thanks for sharing! ;\)
Posted by: Deloris

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 02:37 AM

Snoopy car,
What model is the KAWAI(Mahagony) beside the photo SHANGHAI??? It looks alike with my piano at home wor....must be a short piano right?

Hi Jar Jar,
Please get the tuner check the pedal again. SUSTAINING pedal is very important...song play without pedal sound very boring...no life.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 02:41 AM

Aiyoh! Your piano tech is very lazy. Trap work is not difficult.

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
Thanks for the update snoopycar. I just noticed that you have a website. The pictures are amazing and I saw there is a Bosendorfer? Thank you NW for highlighting. I think the white Nordiska is nice.

Now is a little update on my Kawai GM10. I just got my 1st tuning after it has been delivered about 6 weeks. Everything went fine until the tech adjusted the sustain pedal. While he was adjusting the pedal, I highlighted to him that the pedal is noisy. Then he put a little piece of cloth on it to try to damper the sound. Even it is small but I still can hear the sound. After he went off, I tried my piano. Oh my gosh, the pedal is disturing! I keep on hearing 'tuk tuk' and 'yik yik' sound from it. Maybe it could be like that on my previous Challen but definately not on the Kawai baby grand. I don't mind the pedal is a bit heavy but no point to adjust it if there is extra noise coming out from the pedal. Sounds should only come out from the soundboard and not the pedal.

I was so excited to wait till the piano get tuned but now i don't feel like i want to touch it because of the 'tuk tuk yik yik' sound.

Jess, it this the best tech you have? [/b]
Posted by: timbo77

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 07:13 AM

Hi everyone -- what do you recommend for stabilising humidity for my piano in this part of the world? Is a dehumidifier in the room enough or should I be looking at a dampp-chaser system as well?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 07:49 AM

timbo77: What piano do you have? Was it bought here?

 Quote:
Originally posted by timbo77:
Hi everyone -- what do you recommend for stabilising humidity for my piano in this part of the world? Is a dehumidifier in the room enough or should I be looking at a dampp-chaser system as well? [/b]
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 08:56 AM

Hi timbo77, I put a Thirsty Hibbo (disposable silicone dehumifier) under my piano to reduce the humidity.

Ya lor Deloris, without the pedal, I can only play scales and arpegios...blah.

Digitus, he is not lazy, he is over hardworking. Adjust the thing that doesn't need to be adjusted. Hehe.
Posted by: timbo77

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 09:41 AM

 Quote:
What piano do you have? Was it bought here?
Waiting for a new Schimmel upright to arrive (bought it here). If I need to order something for the humidity, would like to do it now rather than wait until the day it arrives (end of August).
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 09:41 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Deloris:
Snoopy car,
What model is the KAWAI(Mahagony) beside the photo SHANGHAI??? It looks alike with my piano at home wor....must be a short piano right?
[/b]
Think it's the usual CE-7 \:D


jarjar, i think he purposely put a bug in the pedal so that he have an excuse to come back and chit chat, drink kopi, eat crackers, kuay lapis.... hehehe
Sometimes after tuning, i chit chat with owner, play some songs and get tipped!! wow,wee
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 09:49 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
Hi timbo77, I put a Thirsty Hibbo (disposable silicone dehumifier) under my piano to reduce the humidity.
[/b]
Where do you put the silica beads?
Under the top lid?
How do you put under the piano? The action is inside leh. Do you mean under the soundboard?
Hang it with wires?

There should be a heater rod just behind the fallboard, is it there? Should be ok leow.
Then, when not playing, u gotta cover it up with the cover to keep moisture out.
If the lid is close, humid air still gets circulated around the action and inside, lau-hong, you know?
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 10:53 AM

snoopycar, i put 2 big bags of beads inside the lid, on the soundboard. The thirsty hippo is on the floor la just behind the lyre lar. The inside actions already got heater ma. My house has very high humidity. I'm asking my friend to get me the blue gizmo rh meter that you posted from sim lim square for me. I put the lid down when not playing, put down the music desk, slide in and put a table runner to cover it.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 11:17 AM

Oic. ;D

I saw others slide out the desk and put it on top(with protection cloth, maybe towel) with all the top cover close. Like that can protect the inside, no need to always open - that's if you don't mind a little muffle tone.

Why your house so humid? Got sauna bath? House beside sunway lagoon? hehehe just joking.

hehe, mine's old grand piano, no need to sayang so much
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 11:21 AM

My house is humid because it is made of red bricks that absorbed water and i'm on the high floor. Where do you put your grand? Your house really big, can put so many pianos.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 01:49 PM

Oh, not really big house, if big house i'll have pipe organ - hehehe
It's just a 3bedroom + 1 living rm flat. grand is in living rm, U1 in rm1, Clavi and kawhy in rm2. No baby yet, so piano is "baby" hehehe
I just imagine the baby grand is a round dinning table lor.

icic, after you get the humidity monitor, you can judge the RH% more clearly. And see whatever measures you take and any improvment, like closing window, turn on little aircon..

No not simlim square, that's for PC stuff.
It's SimLim Tower, diagonally opposite, don't sabo your friend.... :-)
Posted by: timbo77

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 02:38 PM

jarjar, snoopycar: silicone beads, "heater rods"? you're confusing me.

Are silicone beads enough to keep my pride and joy in shape?
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 03:00 PM

Oh, thanks snoopycar. I thought it was simlim square. Oh ya, maybe you can have steamboat party on your grand with people sitting around it? Hehe.

timbo77, silicone beads is those disposable dehumidfier in small box. Can find it at supermarket or pharmacies. Heater rod is a heater that will be installed inside your piano to keep the piano warm. I suppose all new pianos come with it. Please check with your dealer.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 03:41 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by timbo77:
jarjar, snoopycar: silicone beads, "heater rods"? you're confusing me.

Are silicone beads enough to keep my pride and joy in shape? [/b]
Heater rod is use to keep the roti-john warm... hiak hiak hiak

No... For a normal non aircon room, heater rod(powered ON) is use to reduce the RH% afew %, like 5~15%.

I suddenly realize, if we spent too much $$ and cost to keep RH to ideal 40~55%, which is good for the wood, but there are still others things we cannot avoid like, wear and tear, mechanism becomes loose, hammer become flaten, keys become click clark, felt compacted, leather parts wears out.... pedals and shinning brass hinges become tarnish. Know what i'm trying to rationalize?

don't beat/hammer me..... ouch ouch
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 03:58 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
Oh, thanks snoopycar. I thought it was simlim square. Oh ya, maybe you can have steamboat party on your grand with people sitting around it? Hehe.
[/b]
yaya, i'll just do that next chinese new year reunion dinner, and of course, i take pics and post them here \:D
Is my 170 long enough? should i get the bosie 9ft? can fit 2 steamboat you know? n invite you and the gang ... wait a minute, what about wheeling it to the corridor for a barbeque?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/05/07 07:46 PM

LIke I was saying elsewhere (by mistake), I need to rob a bank. Or win Toto. In the last 3 weeks I have been making my first round of visits to various showrooms, playing on grands.

The list so far includes:
  • Kawai SK-5
  • Kawai SK-6
  • Yamaha C5
  • Yamaha C6
  • Yamaha C7
  • Yamaha S4
  • Brodmann BG187
  • Yamaha C7 (15 years old)
  • Bosendorfer Imperial (30 years old)
  • Schimmel K189T (5 years old)
  • Estonia 190
  • Fazioli F185
  • Fazioli F212

This is a sickness, you know. And yet so addictive?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 12:20 AM

ah ha... i see you went Yammie, Kawie and Emman for shopping last weekend...

-The Estonia 190 would be best value for money IMHO. Not too big, not too small, tone is rich, doesn't hurt ears.

-Bosie Imperial good for performance stage
-C7 has real irory? wow!!


Its a hobby(obsession) only ...
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 01:52 AM

Yesterday to E&S. Yamaha sometime during the week last week, and Kawai the week before that.

Frankly the big guys (Yamaha and Kawai) were disappointing in the way they don't keep the pianos at least in tune. I wanted to try the RX-5 and RX-6 as well, but Robert Piano has only an RX-2 in Singapore.

The Estonia actually isn't that far from the SK-5 in terms of price, but I've got to play both more before I can say which I prefer.

The Bosie is, well, a Bosie. I like it a lot because I used to practice on that for a little while back in uni (when I sweet-talked the auditorium staff to let me sneak in from time to time). But its not the sort of piano I could ever have at home.

The C7 at E&S was interesting. It had new hammers and damper felts and actually sounded better than the C7 in the Yamaha showroom. But then again the Yamaha showroom is absolutely awful for evaluating tone. Yes ivory key, but stained from years of obviously heavy use. Apart from the fact that I refuse to use ivory as a matter of principle, about 4 keys in the treble had chipped edges.

Next on the list are Grotrian and Sauter. But I already know which piano I'm going to get with my Toto winnings!

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
ah ha... i see you went Yammie, Kawie and Emman for shopping last weekend...

-The Estonia 190 would be best value for money IMHO. Not too big, not too small, tone is rich, doesn't hurt ears.

-Bosie Imperial good for performance stage
-C7 has real irory? wow!!


Its a hobby(obsession) only ... [/b]
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 02:41 AM

Aa..? E&S open on Sunday meh?

No need to wait for toto. If i have 25k now, i'd grab the Schimmel 189T right away, or you can haggle a bit. It's so lightly used, like new condtion. Do you have anything to lelong off, like golf sticks, spare alloy wheels, share stocks....

Well, the C7, if the price is right, you can alway replace the key tops of your choice for peace of mind.

Did you play the mini pianos??
How about the U5?

Digitus, wow, so fast thinking to get a companion for you K8 already huh? At night drive taxi for 1 year can buy Fazioli already.. hehehe
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 03:19 AM

I rang and Mr Kwan was in. He had come in for a couple of pianists to try pianos. When I rang in the late afternoon they'd just left so he very kindly offered to wait for me.

Don't like the Schimmel. Yes its in very good condition. although the action needed a little work. But the bass was weak, and dynamic range a little restricted.

I do have things to lelong. Will most likely be disposing of one electronic keyboard on eBay. Also have a lot of other crap lying around.

Didn't play anything other than those I mentioned in my list. I didn't want to keep Mr Kwan longer than necessary for the first pass through.

The one I *think* I want is the Fazioli F212. It is an absolutely mind-blowing piano, at an equally mind-blowing price. Some people don't like the Fazioli "sound" but I could definitely live with it. And I could certainly live with that fabulous action.

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Aa..? E&S open on Sunday meh?

No need to wait for toto. If i have 25k now, i'd grab the Schimmel 189T right away, or you can haggle a bit. It's so lightly used, like new condtion. Do you have anything to lelong off, like golf sticks, spare alloy wheels, share stocks....

Well, the C7, if the price is right, you can alway replace the key tops of your choice for peace of mind.

Did you play the mini pianos??
How about the U5?

Digitus, wow, so fast thinking to get a companion for you K8 already huh? At night drive taxi for 1 year can buy Fazioli already.. hehehe [/b]
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 03:44 AM

Yes, you're accoustically observant. It may lack "turbo boost" but it has "mid range". Perhaps its good for certain works.

Oh well, do drop by one weekday, take halfday leave, take mc(flu, backache, ear-ache...) go and play the Fazioli - offer to trade in your K8 as deposit. haha. After that can go Mustafa shopping ..... cheap casio watch, cheap sanyo AA2700mAh batteries, 999 soap?

Oh pls control yourself........ don't get immsonia
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 04:42 AM

Cannot lah, not when the sweet spot is just the two octaves up from middle C.

The Estonia also has dynamic range issues, but not as bad as the Schimmel. Having said that it is also tonally not that appealing to me.

This piano thing is a sickness, particularly when I start to seriously think of ways to swing the purchase of the F212. \:\(

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Yes, you're accoustically observant. It may lack "turbo boost" but it has "mid range". Perhaps its good for certain works.

Oh well, do drop by one weekday, take halfday leave, take mc(flu, backache, ear-ache...) go and play the Fazioli - offer to trade in your K8 as deposit. haha. After that can go Mustafa shopping ..... cheap casio watch, cheap sanyo AA2700mAh batteries, 999 soap?

Oh pls control yourself........ don't get immsonia [/b]
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 05:16 AM

Oh no..... piano love-sick.
U need to see doctor...
Be cool, don't be reckless, don't find ah-long.

Or get something within reach like GM10 for the time being to chiam-see-tong first?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 05:54 AM

No in-betweens. If I can't afford what my heart wants now, then I'd rather just stick with the K-8 until I can. I can't bear to lose so much depreciation with each purchase.

I hope that my next purchase will be the last one ever, so I would like the instrument to be The One. But yes, there is Financial Hell to consider as well. Sigh. Reality bites.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 06:07 AM

Take my cheap advice. Open up the front cover, the sound will come out at you like a grand!! no kidding, try it! You won't want to put it back afterwards..... \:D
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 06:21 AM

Not necessary on the K-8. The front panels of the piano are vented. \:\)

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
Take my cheap advice. Open up the front cover, the sound will come out at you like a grand!! no kidding, try it! You won't want to put it back afterwards..... \:D [/b]
Posted by: swingal

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 06:23 AM

I would make sure the piano is suitable for the climate there. That would mean makes like Yamaha and Kawai perhaps.

I would go for the tallest upright as they have longer strings.

No,age 33 is very young, you should be able to learn without problems. Be sure to do finger exercises as much as possible though.

Good luck, I was in the RAF at Changi in 1948 and bought records from the music shop in town. I managed to take them home to England without breaking any (those were the old shellac ones).

I loved Singapore, such a fine place to live I imagine. With particularly nice people.

Alan
Posted by: swingal

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 06:29 AM

Post-script on above, I agree with snoopycar. when I used to have an upright, I would remove the front board too. Do not let dust get in though. Perhaps a cloth cover would make it easier to remove than the wooden board every time. Don't let the sun shine on the piano either.

Alan (swingal)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 07:49 AM

Digitus, the vented front only lets out extra 10% sound. For full effect, like the F1 engine without exhaust mufflers, you must remove the front cover for full horsepower effectiveness.

At the same time, notice the panel, is it light weight or heavy MDF?


Hi Swingal, thanks for visiting our thread.
Changi huh... do you still remember Charlie Snack corner? Beer....fish n chips. oh, maybe in 1948, charlie is still a kid... hahaha

Well well well, what records were they, Elvis? Beatles? Oh, Singapore nice.... ooohhh thanks. Wait till you get on the expressway.. and those taxis. hahaha. But yeah, generally, sg is nice to live in, but once in a while it's good to go to bukit timah hill for a jungle walk, to get out of the concrete jungle for a change. It's a pressure cooker here!!! some say

Where the attap house gone, where's the chicken droppings smell? i know CCK still have some.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 07:55 AM

Hey Alan/swingal,

You should come back to visit if you can. I'm sure a few of us PW folk would be more than happy to take you out for a meal and a swing around the island! You will be amazed at how this place has changed, though not all for the better. But its home and I like it here. \:D

The climate issue is a perennial one for us in the tropics. That's one of the reasons why I ended up with a K-8. Having composite materials in most of the action means that there is one less thing that the humidity and temperature here can affect.

I was actually working up towards either an SK-5 or SK-6 (for when I win the lottery heheh) until I started doing the rounds of the piano showrooms. And that's when trouble starts \:D . The Fazioli F212 floats my boat, and I have to convince myself that it's not a wise purchase in terms of $$$ and maintenance.

But you know what, modern glues and production techniques from high-end manufacturers like Fazioli actually make their pianos more able to withstand climatic variation than before. So perhaps with appropriate precautions in the home it may still be safe to have a European piano in the home.

 Quote:
Originally posted by swingal:
I would make sure the piano is suitable for the climate there. That would mean makes like Yamaha and Kawai perhaps.

I would go for the tallest upright as they have longer strings.

No,age 33 is very young, you should be able to learn without problems. Be sure to do finger exercises as much as possible though.

Good luck, I was in the RAF at Changi in 1948 and bought records from the music shop in town. I managed to take them home to England without breaking any (those were the old shellac ones).

I loved Singapore, such a fine place to live I imagine. With particularly nice people.

Alan [/b]
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 08:02 AM

snoopycar: I really don't need to take off the front panels. The piano is already loud enough. Besides for me what's important is dynamic range, being able to play ppp with complete control, and then go to fff without breaking my fingers!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 09:41 AM

Ok ok.. budget has just been approved by the piano association minister. You may get the Fazioli 212. Pls prepare you room layout proposal, make sure the acoustic is correct.
For climate control, USE only ministry approve mitsubishi aircon with inverter technology. Also check you lift dimemsion and submit to engineering office next 2 days. May need the housing board to fab cargo lift in your block. Before the issuing of cheque, the official will measure the spectrum analyzer graph of key excitation vs sonic dB and compare against other similar size grand sound charcteristic. If the result is of significant improvement against other sample, we will further plot a cost analyzsis chart to detect any exponential curve, a linear graph is expected, but expeception could be make by the board of directors. The board is not deter by cost, but need data to justify investment. The board also have set aside 2.5 million for your music furtherance at the Ferrari school of music.


This is a computer generated letter. No signature is reqired.... \:D

Don't call us, we'll call you.


tick tick tick... the Fazioli catalog is ready for collection.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 10:02 AM

The room is ready! The grand will go where the K-8 stands now. No lift approval needed - my flat is two levels down from road level. Mitsubishi aircon already in place. Not inverter technology, but OK lah. \:\)

But I still need to find the $$$. Maybe after tonight's Toto draw.... \:D
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 10:46 AM

I've tried a 30 year-old Yamaha C7 and Kawai KG5C (also 7 foot something) but I dunno why both of them doesn't seem to 'wow' me. Maybe the age? Or the showrooms environment are bad? Both of them going quite cheap actually. I only heard the recording of Fazioli by 1 of the PW member. Hmm.. the tone is not my cup of tea but I bet the action would be superb.

This morning, I fixed the appointment with the tuner to come fix my pedal at 6pm. So I purposely went home earlier and waited for him till 6:30pm still no sign yet. When I called him, he said he totally forgotten about the appointment! Oh my gosh.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 10:57 AM

The action is unbelievable. Makes me sound like a much better pianist than I really am. The tone is something you like or don't. I'm leaning towards the 'like' side, but I can't be sure until I give Grotrian and Sauter a try.

Actually speaking of Yamaha, the C6 in the showroom in Singapore is appalling. It is so bright and jangly that listening to it is like having nails driven into your ear drums. I can't believe that there could be so much difference between it and the models on either side of it, the C5 and C7.

All in all, the Yamaha grands are not for me. Maybe they just aren't prepped right. For example, the S4 in the showroom was very disappointing. It wasn't much better than the C5, and in fact had a somewhat muffled bass. And this for about 46% more than the C5 in price.

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
I've tried a 30 year-old Yamaha C7 and Kawai KG5C (also 7 foot something) but I dunno why both of them doesn't seem to 'wow' me. Maybe the age? Or the showrooms environment are bad? Both of them going quite cheap actually. I only heard the recording of Fazioli by 1 of the PW member. Hmm.. the tone is not my cup of tea but I bet the action would be superb. [/b]
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 01:34 PM

Digitus, you are flower heart. Not even 1 year, you itchy fingers leow... wah hahaha
But i'm also flower heart... more pianono than you, can't deny.. ;\)
Is "Katerine8" open minded?
Does she not mind another? so soon?

It's the boing boing part that makes the different. Some older Cs are refitted with other sofer hammers, so the tonal may be different.
Maybe even the C7 have many version with slightly different scale design...
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 01:58 PM

Hi, just thought of sharing with you all. Someone request me how to make a Jack let-off tool. I think better keep his name anonamous because sacali his piano warranty kenna void... hehehe

Left- improvise let-off tool. Right - proper tool.


Get a 6mm nut driver, cheap - hardware store


Crush it with a viseclamp, not too much.


There you go .... WARNING adjust at own risk
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 02:05 PM

@snoopycar:

Like I said before its a sickness! \:D

The K-8 was a massive impulse buy because I started getting the itch to play again, and didn't have the time nor patience to track down a good second-hand upright.

My progress in the last few months has been encouraging and thoroughly enjoyable. So I think its time to settle down for life, as it were. So the question really is about whether it will be with an Italian or German hottie. I'm not married so there is no wife to neglect. I doubt that my cat will object, as long as I don't torture her with my attempts to teach myself how to play the violin!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/06/07 02:12 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jarjar:
This morning, I fixed the appointment with the tuner to come fix my pedal at 6pm. So I purposely went home earlier and waited for him till 6:30pm still no sign yet. When I called him, he said he totally forgotten about the appointment! Oh my gosh. [/b]
oh my goodness, he need a personnel assistant!! Qwah Qwah

nevermind lah, busyman forgets sometimes, at least you get to come home early and listens to the yik yak concerto
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/07/07 03:39 AM

jarjar,
Punish him by playing a Bach invention 15.
Anyway, did he make it up to you?
Take a pic of the problem location, maybe we can learn something.

When is your friend coming to simlim tower?
After that can introduce him go eat Katong Laksa... hehehe

(I wanted to offer to buy for you and ship it to your place but i scare custom officer will think it's a digital time Bxxb, so i scarp the idea.)
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/07/07 04:08 AM

Well, for some strange reason I did NOT win the lottery last night. Jarjar's idea (in another thread) of trying an ATM heist is starting to look attractive. \:D

 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:
The room is ready! The grand will go where the K-8 stands now. No lift approval needed - my flat is two levels down from road level. Mitsubishi aircon already in place. Not inverter technology, but OK lah. \:\)

But I still need to find the $$$. Maybe after tonight's Toto draw.... \:D [/b]
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/07/07 06:42 AM

Digitus... you can't resist the temptation - you have to give in.
The Fazioli inner rim inlay is gogerous.
The tone at the low range is distinct.
The sweet ringing of the tenor is irrisitable.
You have been deeply hypomotise(how to spell arrh)
Get F212 now. $150000 minus last digit zero, because you are digitizer, manupilate the digit. no need rob bank.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/07/07 07:32 AM

@snoopycar

You are very evil.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/07/07 08:45 AM

I read newspaper last time someone swap the price tag at mustafa to save money on certain items.
I tried to paste a Young Chunk on a Yamaha C7 but at the check out counter, the cashier scan the barcode, it shows Yamaha C7A(renner hammer) and i was busted. I was made to polished the grands during weekends for 30yrs....

When is this gonna stop? Till Digitus gets a Ferrari212 quad cam V12 boxer engine with twin turbo?
I think we are scaring the readers away.... \:\(
Posted by: angy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/07/07 11:28 AM

hi all

I am new to this forum and i am glad to see a singapore thread in this forum. I hope someone can help me.

I am recently migrated to NZ and suey lah, forget to buy a piano before I shipped all my barang barang to NZ.

My daughter was learning organ but no organ teacher in NZ so, i have to change her to playing piano.

Good thing is, the piano teacher is my neighbour, super easy. Bad thing is, no piano, just yamaha electone organ.

I went to a piano shop on weekend. My jaw dropped to the floor and bounced back.

Yamaha UX $9K NZD (serial number, 2.6, 2.7, 3.2)
Kawai u80 $9K
Kawai U65 $9K

I then went to ebay to check out the price, wao, a similar aged piano in OZ, was only 3.5K OZD.

So, I ring Singapore and try to search the net and found the first dealer, Asia Piano. The guy quoted me around $4.4K and a UX30 is around $7.2K

I read from this thread that Yamaha is bright, and Kawai is alittle mellow. I can hear the difference and I agree with the comments.

Questions that I hope any of you can help
1. If I focus on yamaha, Should i buy UX or UX30? Any difference?

2. If not yamaha, what equivalent Kawai can I get? I read alot about K8 in this thread, should i focus on that? If K8, how much?

thanks in advance
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/07/07 12:42 PM

My pedal finally got fixed today. No more tuk tuk sound now but I still can hear the sound of the damper dropped down to the string. I guess I won't be able to hear it while i'm playing.
Thank you snoopycar for you kind intention. I dunno when he is going to buy for me. Actually he is my bf's friend. He is helping my bf to buy some guitar part to modify his guitar so I tap along lar.
I'm a bit different from digitus, I will tend to upgrade my piano from time to time. Seems like I have problem to settle for only 1 instrument for a lifetime. Hehe.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/07/07 01:11 PM

Hi angy, welcome to the forum.

I suggest that you do not buy a new piano. Try to find a good second hand one if possible. The trick is to locate a good piano dealer. You might want to try asking for help in a separate thread in Piano Forum. I'm pretty sure that there are a couple of regulars there from NZ.

The reason I suggest a second-hand piano is that new pianos suffer from very steep depreciation in the first few years, some more than others. You can then defer the purchase of a better new piano until later if your daughter wishes to continue playing.

If you can, try to get the entry level pianos in the higher model ranges from Yamaha or Kawai. From Yamaha, consider the U1, and from Kawai consider the K-3. My personal preference is for the K-3. Forget the K-8. It is the wrong instrument for your needs right now.
Posted by: angy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/07/07 01:22 PM

digitus,

thanks for the welcome. You know what is the price of the K8 here? gosh, you will be surprise. 21K

http://www.beggsmusic.net.nz/afawcs0117489/SUBID=1/page=1/products.html

A Yamaha U3 used is between 4-5K NZD.

I found out the shipping price from Singapore to NZ. And even if I add the shipping cost, the UX is still cheaper than what I can get in NZ. Maybe I can sideline and sell pianos? \:\)

To me, that is the dilemma.

if Kawai (as you have the K8), which is a good entry level one that I should focus on?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/07/07 01:29 PM

@angy,

The prices are astonishing, but surely negotiable to an extent. That's the disadvantage of being in a relatively remote location with a small population.

I think a used K-3 will be fine for your needs, if you can find one. Otherwise a Yamaha U1 will do too. I forgot to mention earlier that you might want to consider other makes from Korea and China as well. I suggest Yamaha and Kawai because they are known quantities to me.

Please find a good dealer first!
Posted by: angy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/07/07 01:39 PM

Digitus,

it is very usual here in NZ. People pay the price that is pointed out by the dealer. 99% no negotiation.

another dealer, check out the price

http://www.lewiseady.co.nz/shop/Pianos/Kawai+Pianos/Kawai+Upright+Pianos.html
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/07/07 01:45 PM

Spent another hour at E&S late this afternoon, mostly on the F212, and a few minutes on the F183 just before I left.

For someone like me who is still struggling to get my hands back into shape, the F212's lighter touch is hard to control. The F183's slightly heavier touch suits me better.

I also struggled with the damper pedal. The Fazioli's have such incredible sustain that you are restricted in how much fudging you can do with the damper pedal to hide inadequate technique.

Oh, not that I intend to get a Fazioli (let alone a grand) just yet, but I read the Fazioli warranty (and you should read yours too). The warranty does not cover instruments that are located in climatically uncontrolled rooms in which the air temperature is around 20 degC and the RH between 45 and 65 percent. Waiting for clarification for pianos sold in the tropics.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/08/07 12:52 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by angy:
Digitus,

it is very usual here in NZ. People pay the price that is pointed out by the dealer. 99% no negotiation.

another dealer, check out the price

http://www.lewiseady.co.nz/shop/Pianos/Kawai+Pianos/Kawai+Upright+Pianos.html [/b]
Wow! Rocket pricing?
But is it the rental rate and taxation are much higher at NZ causing the shops to increase price to maintain overhead?
Posted by: angy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/09/07 10:11 AM

snoppycar,

the price is far too high. I guess everyone needs to eat. So the consumer is the loser.

Overheads are the same as Singapore.
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/09/07 10:37 AM

Angy,
Have you checked whether there is any tax to be incurred when you bring a piano into NZ?
Posted by: angy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/09/07 12:54 PM

jarjar,

yes there is tax, but it is not the issue. Can ask friend to claim it back through his business.

Now I am checking on shipping cost. I still cannot believe the price differential is so significant.

Maybe i can do sideline business \:\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/09/07 01:43 PM

angy, try looking up at local newspapers for used pianos. Maybe you can get a good price?
Posted by: rzz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/10/07 01:47 PM

Hi Hi,

Been piano shopping for the past week. Most of the shops I went to recommended me to get a U1 for my toddler.

Saw these:
U1H - 28-30 years
LX113 - 3 years
LU - less than 10 year old

Saw a couple of U1 but they are all more than 25 years old. I read that it's not recommendable to get a U1 more than 25 years of age. Is that true?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/13/07 02:45 AM

Hi rzz, without getting too technical, all the 3 models are good models for learning.

I'd suggest a good used U1 if your budget allows.
Age 20~35, structure wise, is nothing for a piano. Not like cars.
Mainly, if the parts are ok, you can get.

For example, i have tuned a 23yr U1 recently. This piano is a local piano bought from music plaza, not japan import. The heater was still working when i service the piano. This condition is very good.

What i mean is the leather parts is still lightly worn only. The string are still shinny, the tuning pins have no rust. Tone wise is excellent. As expected, the action need a some regulation, like let-off and back check adjustment.

In summary, with the age in consideration, i don't mind buying such condition as i know it's original and good state. And i have confident that it'll last for at least another 15yrs or more if i take care of it.

Piano of other age are subjected to many unknow factors of different extremes. If a piano is very new, 5yrs, and it's subjected to aircon room set at very cold temp 22deg every night. And in the day the aircon is off and windows are open. Humidity change is very wide. The cold parts in the piano condense with water vapour, the felt parts starts to develop dew mold spots... not nice.

Although piano looks like a black box from the out side, you can request the seller to open the lid, front, bottom and top to inpect the inside for any rust and "flossy" stuff, fishy smell.
Take note of the findings. Compare with another piano. Decide which is better compare to price and condition and tone.

I feel if you buy yamaha, you'll be safe. The LX and LU90 or Lx113 are already very good for a beginner.

It's like:
LU90 = toyota Yaris
LU113 = toyota Vios
U1 = toyota Altis

Taller piano, better bass, better treble.
Like car, more leg space, suspension smoother.

The price paid for second should be much lower that new price. Work out a depriciation rate yourself, eg less 20% compound every 5 years.

As a guideline only for original used piano:

eg new U1 $8000
5yrs $6400
10yrs &45120
15 4096
20 3277
25 2621
30 2097

Of course actual sale price depends on the condition, shop or private seller, over heads and service provide. Sometimes it's ok to pay a little more for service and assurance, and help economy... hehehe
Also, if there has been parts change or replacement, price also are affected slightly.

Bottom line.
1) No point getting a cheapest piano but sounds bad. Not good for ears and learning.

2) No point getting a new piano, won't help the learning speed. But if one can afford, why not? \:\)

3)Get a reasonable price vs condition piano. Get a 2nd opinion, or even multiple opinions from teachers, friends, technician. Then trust yourself you have made a good decision, and enjoy the sight of a "black beauty" as part of you home decor... hehehe.
When the teacher comes to your home, teacher also says, "wah say!" what a good piano choice!!
Also, i feels a good piano will inspire the learner to play music better n learn at a faster rate.

my 3cents......

cheers
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/16/07 04:20 AM

Updates pls.....

Who bought new/used piano recently?
Share with us whats the latest piano findings/ test results?

rzz, share with us leh..

Digitus, hows the "love-sick"? Ordered a Fazioli 212 already?

jarjar, do you have a cover for your grand?

NW, found any good Baldwin so far... ?

Wizkit, working on your lastest recordings?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/16/07 07:24 AM

I have decided, but its not a Fazioli. \:\) I won't say what I've selected until I can figure out how to swing the purchase. I can't depend on winning Toto, and robbing a bank is generally a bad idea. \:D
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/16/07 08:10 AM

Digitus, (i sense you're the tall guy... hehehe)

As a Kawai lover, i bet you book the SK-3 !!! \:D
Yah, i wanted to recommend the genting black/red but, i don't gamble. So i should promote gambling too.

Yes, saving up is definately a good way.
(don't tell me you were the one who dump all the stocks shares and that's why the STi too a tumble?) I'm thinking to get a taxi driving licence.......

Oh tell us what brand you choose ..... pls... we so wanna to know...... kaypoh lah.......

SK-3 = Nissan Cefiro !!!
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/16/07 10:08 AM

HI snoopycar, I bought a table runner to cover the music desk area. I don't want a full piano cover, doesn't look nice and i'm lazy to take it off everyday when I play. Have you tried using any tuning software to tune pianos? I've heard somebody using the Tunelab.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/16/07 10:19 AM

Yeah, that somebody is me lor... you can see some of my webpage pic has the HP PDA. TuneLab PPC is great. Helps me to tune in homes where children watch mickey mouse, bus zoom pass every minute, watching serial movie.... blending chilli padi..
Get 1, i teach you how to tune!!

Well done, that's another innovation!!
I never thought of covering the desk area with a table cloth. I tried to remove the desk and place on top of the close lid. Sound cannot come out from the front, not siok. And the desk becomes too high. If you like, you can think of a way to cover the perimeter too. Notice the gap around the main lid? Dust can get in too.
Enjoy your kakakakawhy....

cheers
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/16/07 05:02 PM

Wait lah. Don't want to say yet. If I get it I will reveal all, if not then pretend nothing happened.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/17/07 02:23 AM

ok ok lah... don't spoil the surprise element right?
Posted by: lolisalo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/17/07 04:27 PM

hi all!! new to piano world... and also hopefully will get to be new to piano.. cos intending to take up piano..

first of all will be the hunt for the most impt item.. piano!

have sorta decided on a digital piano (dp) for now, being the price and allowing me to put it on headphones.. then probably consider acoustic piano few years down the road if my interest is still intense ..

any recommendations?

been surfing the net quite a bit.. seems that yamaha & korg dp are the better ones..
therefore, deciding between yamaha dgx 620, korg sp250... cost abt $1k-$12k...

my main concern is the weighted keys shld match acoustic types to the best.. althou i noe it'll never be the same...
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/18/07 09:06 AM

snoopycar, it is table runner, not table cloth. The size is 13 inches width x 70 inches long. Just the right rize for the music desk area. Since I put on the runner, I don't need to close the desk lid already. I'd like to learn how to tune piano but I don't have a pda \:\( . Will try to borrow my bf's laptop when he is back to try the tunelab. I notice a few keys has already out of tune almost right after the tunning. I wonder whether the new piano doesn't behave nicely or the tuner's problem. By the way, where can I get all the tuning equipments?

Today I was in the a mall, a music store was doing a mini roadshow and there was an 18 year-old boy playing a very nice song. When I asked, he said he composed it himself. Wow, really talented. I like the song very much. They are selling a piano brand name Wimmbert. I never heard of it and 0 information on web. He said he is in love with he Wimmbert piano's actions. But from the price range, I think it is a China made piano.
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/18/07 09:08 AM

Oh, and here is little side story. Today I flipped through my 1st grade piano book. I saw the teacher's hand writting on the book with the date I played that piece. It is 19/06/87! Wow, 20 years....
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/18/07 01:13 PM

That's when i was in Sec4 playing control car !!!
If i didn't stop learning the piano during the 87~05 period, i could learn a lot deal more on piano techinques. Now i only have some fundamental... satisfied leow.

wow was that some Canon in D ?hehehe

Oh there is a few U.S. suppliers. I order from international piano supply. Oh for you to tune the sour unisons.. you dont need a PDA, just a tuning wrench and a rubber wedge!! The software cost about USD340. Trial s/w is i think 1 note per minute. Tuning is an art. practise make perfect(with proper knowledge). In singapore, cristofori also have, but hve to order. If you want to save on frieght, i can order for you. Theirs is japan tuning wrench, should be good. Mine is Hale brand.


\:D
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/18/07 01:28 PM

Thank you so much snoopycar. How much is the tuning wrench?
Nah..where got canon in D for 1st grade book? I also totally didn't touch th piano from 91-06! Imagine that.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/18/07 02:08 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by lolisalo:
hi all!! new to piano world... and also hopefully will get to be new to piano.. cos intending to take up piano..

first of all will be the hunt for the most impt item.. piano!

have sorta decided on a digital piano (dp) for now, being the price and allowing me to put it on headphones.. then probably consider acoustic piano few years down the road if my interest is still intense ..

any recommendations?

been surfing the net quite a bit.. seems that yamaha & korg dp are the better ones..
therefore, deciding between yamaha dgx 620, korg sp250... cost abt $1k-$12k...

my main concern is the weighted keys shld match acoustic types to the best.. althou i noe it'll never be the same... [/b]
Hi lolisalo,
Welcome to the thread.

Did you get a yamaha clavinova?
The CLP 120 above should be a good choice :-D
Posted by: lolisalo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/18/07 06:03 PM

hello..

have just paid for a yamaha dgx620 today at luther musicworks... $1.4k poorer... but happy cos I'VE FINALLY GOT A PIANO!!!!

shall try my best to keep it in the best condition so that i can trade it for an acoustic silent piano few years later.. . :p

and now gotta hunt for a private teacher... \:\)

can't wait for the piano to arrive!!
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/19/07 09:35 AM

HI lolisalo, congratulation on your new piano! But I don't think it will have any resell value after a few years though.

Snoopycar, this is how my piano goes to sleep.

Posted by: lolisalo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/19/07 12:32 PM

then most prob might just keep it for the addtional features for pop piano.. \:\)

any recommndations for adult beginner's piano books? looking at Alfred Adult Beginners All in 1 book...
Posted by: steppy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/19/07 03:15 PM

Hi All - Greetings - and chanced upon this forum while doing some research on getting a new piano for the family.

Been thinking of a nice German made upright piano and the choice is now between the Bluthner or the W.Stienberg.... While the Bluther is pricier - I like it becos of the nicer warm sounding tone - any inputs from anyone here? Is the premium over the Steinberg worth it?

And as the old chinese saying goes, 'if the old does not go, the new would not come' - I have a very well maintained Yamaha U3 for sale - serial number is is in the range of 2.2m - please drop me a p.m. to contact me.

Thanks!
Posted by: rzz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/20/07 12:41 AM

Hi there,
I finally bought a piano for my daughters last week.
Decided to increase my budget after looking through some shops.
Bt this 5 year U1 from Mr. Kwan. I wld have think it's a gd buy considering the price. Series..597..... About 5 years old.

I am no piano expert, looked through the interior and thought that the hammer looks new and presentable plus the shop is reliable. Hence decided to buy it after 3 visits.

There's another shop worth visiting - Shelley's piano, anyone heard this before? Mostly imports fr Japan.

Loisalo - I heard that Alfred books are pretty good, my girls got those for their lessons, interesting songs .
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/20/07 03:45 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by lolisalo:
hello..

have just paid for a yamaha dgx620 today at luther musicworks... $1.4k poorer... but happy cos I'VE FINALLY GOT A PIANO!!!!

shall try my best to keep it in the best condition so that i can trade it for an acoustic silent piano few years later.. . :p

and now gotta hunt for a private teacher... \:\)

can't wait for the piano to arrive!! [/b]
Oh, great!Last time in 98 i almost bought my CVP69 from Luther. He compose jungles for commercials at that time. But after a week, there is a yamaha warehouse sale, so i bought a display unit ... cheaper lor..

Well, it's alway good to keep the digital even after a few year you decide to get a acoustic piano. Can play duet mah....
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/20/07 07:41 AM

Congratulation, RZZ ! Btw, have you found a teacher for your daughter ?
Posted by: evsu

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/20/07 07:21 PM

How much is the tuning wrench? original by jarjar


you mean u going to buy a wrench n start tuning on your grand.Oop,if yes please think of the consequence,
snoopycar i guess is one of a kind who is a handson person, n maybe he have gods gift to be able to tune n learn himself,
eg some piano player like me ,can learn n play piano by selflearning but i will never be a profession player because all my technique n basic fundamental are all wrong,but did quite ok for popmusic just for myself ok,not to perform,
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/21/07 02:35 AM

Oh welcome to the thread, evsu \:D
Thanks for your concern indeed.

Yah lor, full tuning is not a easy task, need muscle power and brain power, and motor power.
If, i guess jarjar was referring some of the sour unisons, a moderately good tuning wrench will do.
(plus lots of will power)

For the treble section for example, each note is 3string. If 1 is slightly out of tune to the other 2, a pulsation sound can be heard, like vibrato. Just need a rubber mute to find out which of the 3 is out of tune. No need a tuning device, just normal ear. Bionic ear even better.

This fine tuning only requires a slight movement or pressure to correct. Dont turn a 1/4 or 1/8 !!!
Maybe it's like 1/1000 of a turn to correct it.
You;ll need a jerking push or pull. Don't turn it like changing a car tyre .. hahaha

Full tuning is not recommended for novice, on a new piano. Better get an upright to learn. Don't be frighten by the guys at the amazing race who even broke a string!!

evsu, let me compliment you for self-learning the piano too. No one says one must learn from teacher and play perfectly. Half pail of water is good enough here......... Can play TongHua, Jolin Tsai, or ballade pour adeline can already.. hehehe
If need more challange and have time, can learn some classical pieces. eerr, i not handsome lah... looks like chinaman hahaah.

Aiya.. relax, wrong fundamentals.. technique... nebermind. as long the music come out right... like a pro!! I think you're doning ok, join us more often for chit chat here \:\)
Posted by: piano_kk

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/21/07 09:02 AM

Hi. I would like to sell my grand piano. I have been using it for slightly more than a year. It is a 7 feet long Wilhelm Tell grand piano.

Wizkit has already posted in another thread that it is in a very good condition. There are no damages to it and the tone is still fresh.

I'm selling it because i don't stay in Singapore, because i often have to leave the country.

I will post a picture of my piano later when i get back home.

Any interested parties can pm me.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/21/07 11:43 PM

Wow, is it the Empire, rounded legs? So nice.
And is it a white finishing ;D
I remember gramercy mention someone bought it and had it man lift up to 20 something story apartment!! Sheer determination of strength(2 day MC after that)!!

How's the WT compared to Wizkit super grand?
Lush and thick tone?
Posted by: rzz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/22/07 01:27 AM

Hi NW,

Oh yes, I have shortlisted 2 teachers for my daughters. I am fortunate that 2 of them prefer one of them.
5 mins drive from home to her studio. I have started lessons last week and I am keeping my fingers cross that the teacher will cultivate and develop their interest in music.
Posted by: angy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/22/07 08:58 AM

today in NZ, Kawai has a sale.
K6 was 17,995 and now 13,995.

I think Singapore is around 11K.
Posted by: RichterForever

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/22/07 11:28 AM

Popped by Chiu Piano today and the boss was in the process of tuning a 5'8" Schimmel he had just taken delivery of. He somehow managed to squeeze it into his shop right next to the Bosendorfer. He said it would be for display and demo. Should be ready by tomorrow. Must say it was beautifully finished.
Posted by: getrich

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/23/07 03:51 AM

Posted by: getrich

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/23/07 05:10 AM

Hi Steppy,
now that you have mention Bluthner, i have read it somewhere it is still under the family tradition since 1850s. As for the W. steinberg, i only get to know this brand in this Forum.Hmm.. not popular i guess, where can i try that 1 out or is it worth the try????(somebody pls enlighten me)
I have actually tried the Steinway, Bluthner Yamaha/Kawai and Schimmel.Steinway ISSS AWESOME...but way beyond my budget. I have to agree with you the Bluthner does have a that warm sounding tone, i love it. But still WAAAY beyond my budget.Sigh.....
I have a yamaha of 9 yrs and is getting way to bright, irritates me. The kawai i have tried, got a lovely beautiful sound,glad i tried it. have added that in my list too.
as for you, buy the 1 you really like and dont regret it. we are not talking about small amount here.
All the Best.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/24/07 02:44 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by angy:
today in NZ, Kawai has a sale.
K6 was 17,995 and now 13,995.

I think Singapore is around 11K. [/b]
Grap it quick......

Must always factor in the cost of living by the chicken rice/char kuey teow formula:

Chicken rice in NZ/Chicken rice in Singapore =
NZ$5/SGD2.5 = 2X !!! + factor in the beautiful scenary of the mountain, the lake, the ocean....
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/24/07 03:04 AM

Hi Getrich,
Wow yahmaha 9yrs getting bright??
Have you tried to put a foam mattress behind the piano to see it it can improve?
What model is it?
Chk the hammer face, is it flatten?

My U1 place in bedroom with curtains above and the recess wall facing the soundboard sounds ok, not too bright, just nice. Before in the living room, very loud and bright.

cheers
Posted by: getrich

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/24/07 04:16 AM

]
Posted by: getrich

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/24/07 05:01 AM

Hi Snoopy,
My model is U1, seems brighter than the first time i got it.never check the hammer head ( guess that is the thingy that hits the strings,right?)
You mean i can muffled the sound by putting a foam matress at the back, of the piano!! Wow, should try. Wat you thing, should i get a new 1? i so loove the Bluthner, got a very warm sounding feel. i tried at RP but cant afford and was AMAZED at the beautiful tone quality of the Kawai.--let me know. Thanks for the reply snoopy. Really appreciate. i know nuts about it.hopefully can learn more in this forum.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/24/07 06:00 AM

The tone thingy is very interesting subject.
Now that my U1A is in the room, i'm so in-love with it. Placement can do wonders. At the living room last time, the mattress did help to lower the loudness and helps.

U1 a good piano, hold on, don't just change a piano because the tone is bright, yet. The hammer does compact over usage and become less resilience. Thus hitting the strings with less cushion effect. secondly the the face where the part where it hits the strings become flatten and produce a harsher sound wave. But slightly flatten doesn't know directly means a harsher sound. Many factors are involve.

1)Is your piano position/location same as it was 9yrs ago?
2)How old is it?
3)is it a first hand?
4)was it formerly "voiced"?
(a needling process which makes the hammer "softer")

There is however 1 alternative. If you ask me, i could suggest to reshape, and voice the hammer.

I'm beginner to like the sound of my U1. Bright is good at times. Too mellow becomes muddy. Should listen for tone fundamental tone fullness, little ringing sweetness, sustain, volume at whole keyboard span, dynamics, voice detail at different volume(expression).

cheers
Posted by: angy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/24/07 09:35 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
 Quote:
Originally posted by angy:
today in NZ, Kawai has a sale.
K6 was 17,995 and now 13,995.

I think Singapore is around 11K. [/b]
Grap it quick......

Must always factor in the cost of living by the chicken rice/char kuey teow formula:

Chicken rice in NZ/Chicken rice in Singapore =
NZ$5/SGD2.5 = 2X !!! + factor in the beautiful scenary of the mountain, the lake, the ocean.... [/b]
you are spot on

2 piece of roti prata 6.50 to 8NZD
chicken rice 8NZD
yum char, same price as SG

Now contemplating with a Malaysian friend of mine. He is thinking of getting either a K6 or K8 for his son
Posted by: steppy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/24/07 01:50 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by getrich:
Hi Steppy,
now that you have mention Bluthner, i have read it somewhere it is still under the family tradition since 1850s. As for the W. steinberg, i only get to know this brand in this Forum.Hmm.. not popular i guess, where can i try that 1 out or is it worth the try????(somebody pls enlighten me)
I have actually tried the Steinway, Bluthner Yamaha/Kawai and Schimmel.Steinway ISSS AWESOME...but way beyond my budget. I have to agree with you the Bluthner does have a that warm sounding tone, i love it. But still WAAAY beyond my budget.Sigh.....
I have a yamaha of 9 yrs and is getting way to bright, irritates me. The kawai i have tried, got a lovely beautiful sound,glad i tried it. have added that in my list too.
as for you, buy the 1 you really like and dont regret it. we are not talking about small amount here.
All the Best. [/b]
Hi getrich - thanks - with stienway almost double in price to that of the bluthner, i guess it is really out for me...

I guess i have almost the same problem as you...the u3 is a bit too bright for my liking and when my son practises on it, it really gets very irritating - in addition, piano teacher has commented that the touch on the yamaha + the age of the piano is a bit light and may not be good for my son...

So...i love music and love the warm/airy type sound from a german piano..but the problem here is i really dunno which one to buy!!!

In anycase, i am dropping by to check out the c. bechstien tomorrow with the family....
Posted by: evsu

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/25/07 12:29 AM

There is however 1 alternative. If you ask me, i could suggest to reshape, and voice the hammer.

i face the same problem ,got a cheap price tech to do it ,result not so good,i ask him how he was trained,he reply selftaught .readup.gosh
finally got a technician ms ang i think trained in japan,wow got what i wanted but paid 3 times more.money well spend
Posted by: piano_kk

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/25/07 09:52 AM

snoopycar

My Piano is Empire190 but i changed rounded legs to straight legs.It is warm tone and bass is very powerful, the touch never
changed still very comfortable to play. Enjoy the pics!

[img]http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pRI4mmXFbCNob6W95JhZuF9icly9ua7ZXQQFJmVP56WHbY6sR7EFPqmpQ9XWHyHnJ7xJF_I71y0c[/img]
[img]http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pRI4mmXFbCNrbfCIfePnaqfpkCMhRu2Aue5JadTr7oSZGTxJfAX60q25kbbdHKbNMvdQycDDU7jc[/img]
[img]http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pRI4mmXFbCNrnfCX7nV9b3iKyZBrBsuT4DuL-7olUCyz49vmmtS1w-0rw-[/img]
[img]http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pRI4mmXFbCNr1QBLL52lisDpVgnNHfkd2_9pWOHnHE8VcKZ1nSIHGprnohznLiyshzQ6AAEK0Gyg[/img]
[img]http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pRI4mmXFbCNoFYtd64FM4flWUCtfsNY4ORApOiM6nZbHNRUPmElmP7CYRdilL69_1yXvpKfKWCFw[/img]
[img]http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pRI4mmXFbCNrB3ySzN61ZJVDAmVG4eFTRMpfJY8UJ1RC9A1KRQQD4B9UpzPzCPHrNhC8ZGhSbbbw[/img]
[img]http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pRI4mmXFbCNpuDRQofMlguvNCs6RFLcCaa-_oJbWA1d532mqmxA7g--Ebuv9wY_cKN1Y3JayCguM[/img]
[img]http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pRI4mmXFbCNpdJn91tiiVPiKhb2aUtD5oMRHW08E1D3tKJX8RQYdwJ4Prio82RmZSg1rpdPEh2NU[/img]
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/25/07 01:44 PM

Evsu,

I have sent you a private message
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/25/07 02:19 PM

Good to know the stick is at the right position \:D

hmmm how i miss those round leggys......


Super Swee !!!
Posted by: evsu

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/27/07 04:49 AM

wheham tell. iwas told made in china.may should test it out.but dont like chinese piano
Posted by: getrich

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/27/07 07:58 AM

hi snoopy thanks for the advise.
who can i call regarding reshaping my hammerheads
does it cost alot, do they have to bring the whole thing back.
went to try the bluthner again, god i love the sound of it,
SIIIGHHHHHH./............
Posted by: getrich

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/27/07 08:03 AM

hi Steppy,
Hows your piano hunting. any decision make yet.
I heard bechstein went bankrupt or sold to other korean company, if i am not wrong. YOOOO Snoopy, is it true, correct me if i am wrong.
anyways , hope you get the right 1.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/28/07 02:02 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by getrich:
hi snoopy thanks for the advise.
who can i call regarding reshaping my hammerheads
does it cost alot, do they have to bring the whole thing back.
went to try the bluthner again, god i love the sound of it,
SIIIGHHHHHH./............ [/b]
Hi getrich, wow... blue-ner tone, like a BMW 7-series satisfaction..... truely a class of its own. Ah ha... went to try BMW again? U'll get enticed and seduce!! Try Estonia and Fazioli(Ferrari) too.

Well, before you make any decision, are you sure U1 is really so bright till it become annoying? Some complain about it's ability to play softly. You must physcho yourself "it's nice, it's sweet, i like it".... and your ear sensors will tune to accustom it by auto-adjusting it's equalizer stage by stage... hehehe

How about this suggestion. I'd like to invite you to my place to listen to my U1, no special room sound proofing, no special voicing done - just a tuned piano. It seem it sound quite ok to me. You can listen and compare.

Have you chk the face of your U1 hammer? is it flatten or morderate flatten? I would also suggest you to have a 2nd opinion from another pianist to listen to your U1 and hear if it is really too bright. (I hope the piano is tuned well in the first place...)

Where is your U1 placed? Living room? Lots of sound reflection. Must remember that nice showroom are carpeted and has a nice false ceiling to dampers sound reflection.

One more thing i didn't take account is do you play alot very hard, are you a concert pianist? Have the hammer taken a beating? ouch ouch!! If not, maybe the ear have gotten bored of the sound you initially liked \:D If, yes, you practise hard, then any piano would need voicing by now.
Ok, later i mail a concert tuner/voicer contact to you. Changing hammers job needs piano to be move to shop and back to your home. But first try voicing.

cheers
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/28/07 02:07 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by getrich:
hi Steppy,
Hows your piano hunting. any decision make yet.
I heard bechstein went bankrupt or sold to other korean company, if i am not wrong. YOOOO Snoopy, is it true, correct me if i am wrong.
anyways , hope you get the right 1. [/b]
Yoyoyo... i don't know about these tacky things... i only watch Discovery and History Channel \:D
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/28/07 10:09 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by evsu:
wheham tell. iwas told made in china.may should test it out.but dont like chinese piano [/b]
Nevermind make in where mah..., just treat it as made in earth by ppl of earth can oredi lah... hehehe . Price wise it's moderately priced. If one can get hold of a 2nd hand WT, why not? Nevermind about the made in china thingy. It's different from buying a QQ. The WT is made by craftman trained by Swiss man, serious quality stuff....

Really. you got to take a look and listen and be non bias. It's quite an nice sounding piano. Looking from the open lid, craftmanship also not bad man.. but to be exact, we have to pull out the action to touch and shake every flange to check if there's any looseness. Too leychay...

don't worry, follow your ears.
Posted by: timbo77

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/29/07 02:53 PM

Hi everyone -- since RichterForever mentioned Chiu Pianos a few days ago, I thought I would just chime in and say that I took delivery today of a Schimmel. It's beautifully finished and sounds wonderful. I was recommended to visit Mr Chiu by someone on these pages and I'm so glad they did. If I ever have the money to get a Bosendorfer, I'll be going straight back there.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/30/07 01:31 AM

Yahoo!! Congrats !!

How does it sounds compare to the last piano?
Wonderful, fabulous, totally captivated?

Pls give us a full review and report \:D
Posted by: Buratino

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/31/07 02:36 AM

Hi Everybody!

I am a beginner, I wanted to learn piano for long time but could not get started. Now I want to learn it together with my son. For begining, I plan to buy an used piano or digital piano with small budget (app. 2k). Please help to give me your suggestion with this budget which one is better choice. By the way, I think the piano with silence mode would be great as I only have night time for practice.

Many thanks in advance!
Posted by: RichterForever

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/31/07 07:36 AM

Yes Mr Chiu is a lovely gentleman. Obliging and not pushy at all. That Bosendorfer has been in the shop for quite a while. Timbo77 do you mind sharing the model and price of your new Schimmel.
Posted by: timbo77

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 08/31/07 03:13 PM

I got the Classic 124 in black and paid around 19k. When I was looking at buying it, I also played the Schimmel grand (before it was sold): that was a lovely lovely piano as well.

For its size, it makes an impressive sound. I was drawn to the clear tone the piano makes. And Mr Chiu's manner was just excellent. He was quite happy to let me play every piano in shop (I almost did) and basically recommended I get a cheaper model than the one I was originally looking at (the 130). How often does a salesman recommend you save money?

I'm sure by the weekend my neighours are going to hate me!
Posted by: PianoDaddy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/01/07 01:53 PM

Hello! Recently came across this thread and found it interesting to read about Pianos from a more local context. Most of what we read on the web are usually from a North American or European context. I don't really play the piano, but got introduced to it because my son is currently taking lessons \:\)

We currently live in Tokyo and glad in a way because the standard of hardware (actual pianos) and software (piano education) are quite high here. So while we are here, might as well let my boy learn as much as possible!

I have a question. My mom in Singapore bought a used upright piano about a year ago. Is there an experienced tech I can ask to check it out and service it? I am hoping to find an experienced tuner who does it aurally rather than depend on electronics. Any recommendations will be appreciated!
Posted by: RichterForever

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/01/07 03:37 PM

Timbo, thanks for the info. You are right, Schimmels have a very clean tone which I really like. Great for Baroque and Classical repertoire.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/03/07 03:48 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by PianoDaddy:
Hello! Recently came across this thread and found it interesting to read about Pianos from a more local context. Most of what we read on the web are usually from a North American or European context. I don't really play the piano, but got introduced to it because my son is currently taking lessons \:\)

We currently live in Tokyo and glad in a way because the standard of hardware (actual pianos) and software (piano education) are quite high here. So while we are here, might as well let my boy learn as much as possible!

I have a question. My mom in Singapore bought a used upright piano about a year ago. Is there an experienced tech I can ask to check it out and service it? I am hoping to find an experienced tuner who does it aurally rather than depend on electronics. Any recommendations will be appreciated! [/b]
You've got mail .... \:D
Posted by: DayDreamer

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/06/07 01:00 AM

Hello I am also an adult beginner, I have learnt piano previously when I was in early primary school. Then I had an acoustic piano, after moving to Singapore my dad bought me an electric piano about 10 years ago.

I recently started learning piano again, only had 2 lessons so far. I really wish to have a acoustic piano again, but the cheapest new kawai (K3 I think?) is SGD7.5k.. and my entire family (husband & parents) thinks that's crazy.

Since the Kawai K3 is the lower end, is it wise to buy that or should I somehow save or rob to get a better piano (how much will that cost?) after I succeed in my evil scheme to buy myself a piano?

In case I am going around in circles basically my question is.
1) Kawai K3 $7.5k from what i gathered from this thread
2) Something better that can last me till my kids are big. So that will be like 20 yrs? As they are not born yet LOL (How much is this option going to be?)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/06/07 03:59 AM

Hi DayDreamer

Welcome to the thread \:D
Kawai K-3 is a good choice and surely can last more than 20 yrs - as with any modern japanese pianos. Hold your money for a while longer. Open up your options. How about a yamaha? How about a used grand piano?

Good condition used piano are also one other economical option. These used pianos are imported from japan, some hardly use, some mildly used. You could save 40~65% as compare to a new one of similar performace/specf type. If it's a good one, don't let the age deter you. Lightly used 15~22yrs old pianos from japan looks new inside.
But beware of lemonade.. hehehe(good looking but plays and sounds "harsh")

On the other hand, owning a new piano is also as exciting. Less worry of any hidden defects, u can smell the fresh fragrance... dealer support, full warranty... (bank balance damage)

Some choose new, some choice used. it's all about dollar and sense. Some may rationalize, why pay more when i can't heard the difference? Some prefer to own new things.. hmmm.. life choices

There are many good used piano shops. Look through the classified ads.
These are a few i can think of, in no bias/particular orders of perference:

Asia piano
Cristofori bedok
Emmanuel&Sons
Zadok Music
many others....

Feel free to ask more questions.
Perhaps a good guideline is, fix a budget, find the best sounding, youngest, branded piano with this budget.

happy searching \:D
Posted by: DayDreamer

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/06/07 04:20 AM

Hi Snoopycar thanks for your reply.

I'm afraid I'm quite spoilt, therefore I want a new piano. Don't fancy getting a 2nd hand.

As it has been the feedback of many in the forums, yamaha tends to sound brighter than kawai, and therefore I will prefer a kawai. My teacher has a grotrian (correct spelling ) she says its german and handmade.

Is there any decent german pianos for about 10k ?

Any piano shops that I can visit that carries the latest offerings from kawai ? The only piano shop I know is the yamaha one at PS
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/06/07 05:01 AM

Well, for Kawai, of course go to Roberts Piano, 4 shops around the island, Millenium, parkway parade, centerpoint.. one more where arr , can someone help me?

I almost can sense you want a brand new piano \:D
Aiya, used some can be call pre-own. Used sounds like haggled, worn-out. Pre-own is like new.

(Hello, anybody selling a pre-own K8 ??
Someone is upgrading to a Grand .....)

Hmm, hvn't seen a gortians yet. I've seen C.Becstein .. \:D

cheers
Posted by: DayDreamer

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/06/07 06:19 AM

I guess I'll be safe sticking to a Kawai then. Is it worth to top up for a higher end model of Kawai ?

Millenia walk is the one next to suntec is it? Somebody mentioned that the old man hangs out there the most
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/06/07 07:12 AM

Mr Chiu rotates his time at the stores.
Posted by: DayDreamer

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/06/07 08:45 AM

A side question how far in my piano education do you think its justifiable to buy myself a piano ? Since I only had 2 lessons its very hard to convince anyone, but waiting till I pass my grade 5 exams seems abit too long
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/06/07 10:01 AM

How about rent a piano ?
or Rent-to-own package ?
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/06/07 01:12 PM

HI DayDreamer, welcome to the forum. Anyone taking piano lesson is justified to get themself a piano. But I think the idea of passing down the piano to your children is not that practical, at least for me. You get the one you like and could afford at this time. You could upgrade it in the future. I'm having my 3rd piano now. It is a baby grand, hopefully I could upgrade it to a Shigeru Kawai later. You might want to take a look at the K5 or K6 if you think K3 is too small for you. For S$10k, probably you can try Petrof? I've seen a Gotrian grand piano and it sounds great.
Posted by: DayDreamer

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/07/07 01:01 AM

Is Petrof as economical to maintain as a Kawai ?
My teacher said that they have to tune her Gotrian every other month to suck out moisture or something.

My teacher also said that my electric piano feels and sounds very different from a real piano, but nobody in my house believes there is a need for a real piano \:\(
So my plan is to get my year end bonus, spend it secretly and wait for judgement
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/07/07 01:52 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Buratino:
Hi Everybody!

I am a beginner, I wanted to learn piano for long time but could not get started. Now I want to learn it together with my son. For begining, I plan to buy an used piano or digital piano with small budget (app. 2k). Please help to give me your suggestion with this budget which one is better choice. By the way, I think the piano with silence mode would be great as I only have night time for practice.

Many thanks in advance! [/b]
HiHi,

It's ok to get a acoustic piano. When you depress the middle pedal, a felt cloth lowers in between the hammer and strings. This lowers the volume substantially.
I suggest a medium range piano $1500~2000, not too chap, not too expensive, nice to listen, nice to touch.

For 2nd hand digital, you sure can get below $1k.

\:D
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/07/07 02:04 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by DayDreamer:
Is Petrof as economical to maintain as a Kawai ?
My teacher said that they have to tune her Gotrian every other month to suck out moisture or something.

My teacher also said that my electric piano feels and sounds very different from a real piano, but nobody in my house believes there is a need for a real piano \:\(
So my plan is to get my year end bonus, spend it secretly and wait for judgement [/b]
Yah, the damper control feeling is different. The mechanical feeling is different. When you play crash chord, the sound is much more satisfying, not like a mini-hifi. Bass from a real piano is definetely better.

Petrof(music lodge) and Bohemia(Gramercy) piano is special. The tone flavour is unlike the Japanese. Go Try it, little sweet, little ringing, more 3-dimensional. Some go for these piano because they prefer a more "hand made" piano, unlike mass production(just a feedback).
Posted by: DayDreamer

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/07/07 02:26 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by snoopycar:
 Quote:
Originally posted by DayDreamer:
Is Petrof as economical to maintain as a Kawai ?
My teacher said that they have to tune her Gotrian every other month to suck out moisture or something.

My teacher also said that my electric piano feels and sounds very different from a real piano, but nobody in my house believes there is a need for a real piano \:\(
So my plan is to get my year end bonus, spend it secretly and wait for judgement [/b]
Yah, the damper control feeling is different. The mechanical feeling is different. When you play crash chord, the sound is much more satisfying, not like a mini-hifi. Bass from a real piano is definetely better.

Petrof(music lodge) and Bohemia(Gramercy) piano is special. The tone flavour is unlike the Japanese. Go Try it, little sweet, little ringing, more 3-dimensional. Some go for these piano because they prefer a more "hand made" piano, unlike mass production(just a feedback). [/b]
What about maintaining a Petrof is it any different from a Kawai ? Just tune every 6 months?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/07/07 02:54 AM

Hi DayDreamer,

All new piano requires more tunings untill the strings tension and soundboard compression settle down. Perhaps 6-monthly tuning for the 1 years, then 9-monthy for the 2nd year onwards. After that you can tune 9-12monthly. At the same time, let the tech check if there is any other adjustment needed. Tuning usually cost around $50~70 only. Maybe you could get $5 off if you tune 1/2 yearly \:D

These are the 2 basic maintenance you need for new piano, tuning and adjustment.

The mechanism in all pianos are more or less the same concept. Not like cars, where certain brand spare parts are more expensive and rare. New Piano don't break down, no electronics parts. The mechanical parts are basic leverage physic. After a long time, it may tend to wear out abit. But as a rough estimation for achedamic use, it should last 20yrs without major breakdown. So don't worry, Petrof or Kawai or Yamaha or etc, i don't think there is any special maintenance requirement for each of them. All are good choice.
Posted by: getrich

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/07/07 05:18 AM

Yo Snoopy,
Thanks for the recommendation to your si-fu.
another 1 of robert piano branch is at paragon,i got their name card.haha

tata
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/07/07 06:27 AM

I agree with snoopy... dont worry about maintenance issue. Petrof, Kawai, Yamaha or etc are well-known established piano companies. Choose the one you like. Neither one will require more or less unless the piano is not kept in the correct humidity or there is large fluctuation of humidity thru-out 365 days or the piano have been many-many-many years not maintain . Sometime is also the tuner, non experience or maybe a lousy one that doesn't know how to set the pins. Thus, a little hard bang to the keys the tuning will go off.
On the other hand, also watch out for dealers too. If they carry the brand they tell you wonders but speak of other brand are like junk. You know.. hard sell mah... Good luck....
Regards
Posted by: piano_kk

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/09/07 07:24 PM

Zzzzzzz

I am still wating for my buyer...
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/10/07 08:01 AM

Hi Piano_kk,

Don't sell lah...
enjoy the piano for a little longer.

Hire a pianist and play you your favorite song while you relax at the sofa sipping a lipton tea.... then you won't want to sell anymore \:D
Posted by: supabertbert

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/10/07 03:23 PM

Hi. I came across this forum some time ago but didn't have time to sit down and read the posts. Just a question, which I know many people have asked.
What is the difference between a brand new Kawai piano and a brand new Yamaha Piano?

I used to own a China-made Hsinghai and am thinking of getting a Japanese piano, with many friends buying either a Kawai or Yamaha..
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/10/07 03:45 PM

Hi supabertbert,

I suppose for similar price between the 2 brands, the tone timbre is different. It's like Van Houten or Cadbury chocolate. Too sweet, too bitter, nuts, rasin... I like both. Both are quality pianos. Both are good choice. some like the yamaha clear bright tone(not the metalic bright), some like the kawai mellow tone.
Again, both have good key touch - can't go wrong.

Are you looking to brand new or pre-owned?
Posted by: lolisalo

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/11/07 05:57 AM

Hi All! been quite some time since i've last visited here... this is really an active forum.. seeing so many members joining!! so happy to read all ur msgs...

but i'm also sad!! ordered a Yamaha dGX 620 3 weeks ago from a retailer... delivery time was supposed to be 2 weeks but they called me later to inform that it was OUT-of-stock!!!! becos Yamaha sold quite all exisiting stocks overseas.. and worst thing, the next shipment is scheduled only in 5 weeks time!! not only this, it might be even longer than 5 weeks... wait wait wait... hiaz.... long wait..... \:\(

luckily my piano school allow me to go practice during weekdays.. but yet to have much chance to go down other than lesson time...
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/12/07 03:49 AM

Arr.... so many weeks arrr... This model must be in hot DEMAND !!! Time to "poke" some pizza hut voucher from the dealer as "pacifier fees"!!!
Posted by: supabertbert

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/17/07 03:05 AM

snoopycar,
thanks for the advice.
I'm still not sure which I want to take up, brand new or used..as budget is (and always has been!) a very big consideration.

1) I don't want to spend so much on something that i may only tinker on for a few times a week but if I can get a new piano for a good price, why not?

2) I don't want a compromise in quality eg a very old 2nd-hand Yamaha U1 which someone wanted to sell me, which sounded "honky-tonk" and metallic.

I know I might be fussy but I want the best value for my very limited money. Isnt that what all customers want?

best rgds
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/17/07 07:08 AM

Hi,

It's not fussy, it's good sense. Get the most out of the dollar. You have made a good choice to hold on your purchase till you hear other better sounding pianos. Interestingly, i have yet to hear a honky-tonk U1:D ... Did someone stick thumb tacks into the hammer??

Have you tried a pre-owned Kawai? Or refurbish Yamahas? They can sound mellow if the hammers were replaced with a softer types. So keep your option open on 2nd hand pianos. Not all are bad, plenty are still value for money. You just got to choose it right.

I'm sure $1600~2600 can buy a good satisfying piano - tall, shinny, beautiful tone. The internal parts have to be in good condition, not worn out till you can hear part clutters.
Feel free to PM me if you need 2nd opinion.

happy searching...
Posted by: savvyguy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/20/07 03:22 AM

I've been playing on my Yamaha P70 (digital) for quite a few months already, and I'm starting to get dissatisfied with the quality of the sound and touch.

Having a budget of 3000SGD, what choices do I have, that can perform much better than my current P70? I need it to practise for my ABRSM exams, and at the same time, for some casual pop music playing. I'm also helping one of the starters to choose a good acoustic piano. any recommendations? not considering 2nd hand pianos.. because I do not have the expertise to choose one without the insiginificant malfunctioning parts. thank you!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/20/07 03:47 AM

I saw a 2nd hand yamaha LU-90, very new, few years old. $1600 neg. Would you like to have the contacts? Very low cost beginner to imtermediate model. Can take exam, of course.
Posted by: savvyguy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/20/07 04:05 PM

hmm, i mentioned i'm not considering 2nd hand pianos .. sorry there.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/21/07 01:42 AM

hehe, yes, i was testing you.. \:D

SGD3k.. let me think.. Would you like to consider chinese brands? Pearl river, hailun, ruben & sons, Wend&lung ? How about Atlas? How about indonesia made budget yamaha? must be 121cm Exam models right? choices are not many, gotta hunt around.

Well, if one doen't have the expertise to chk out used piano, one could pay someone's expertise to do so - cheap of course. But in fact, choosing a used piano is not difficult. Just need to have a check list and know what to look out for.

Even a new piano can be a sour-plum, same goes for a used piano. It's not guessing. Even for new piano, it's good to have some knowledge. Open the top lid, chk the hammers alignment by slowly pressing the key till the hammer reach the strings. If the new piano isn't aligned well, it'll give trouble after some time. Look out for workmanship...

i understand, sometime when we introduce piano for others, we don't want to get into trouble by introducing a "troublesome" piano. kenna(get) blame for nothing.. \:D New piano are safer in this case.

cheers
Posted by: savvyguy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/21/07 02:55 PM

hmm, are MIC pianos credible? I asked my piano teacher, and she recommended me to go for the more credible Yamaha line. she said tuners mention the hammers and strings will degrade over time, but usually yamaha pianos are the ones that will maintain the standard.

Nope, it doesn't have to be exam-model standard..
Posted by: jarjar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/21/07 03:02 PM

Hi savvyguy,
I think you don't have much choice with the SGD3K budget for new piano. Even can't do for a Yamaha entry level piano.
Posted by: savvyguy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/21/07 04:20 PM

really? how much does an entry level yamaha cost?
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/21/07 04:34 PM

complicating matters...
Price reference ;>
http://www.yamaha.com.sg/662.html

Better range yamaha have better, more lasting hammers(resilience) which is more lasting than normal low cost hammers. Low cost hammer gets flatten easily, which usually yields harsh sound.

Yah, i do come across strings that tends show sign of rust at the bottom bass strings area. I wonder is it due to low cost strings....

If you ask, what good(bang for the bucks) piano can 3k buy? Theres many options. But if you ask what new pianos can 3k buy, then options becomes limited.

I know 3k can buy a brand new MIC 115cm piano. I also know ~3.4K might buy a very good 2nd hand U1. The used U1 might fetch a good resale value. The 3K MIC piano might not fetch good price if you some time later decide to change piano.

Come to think of it, 3k is quite a sum of money. Use it wisely lor. psst, 3k can even get a used grand piano !! :-D

How about a samick??
Posted by: savvyguy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/21/07 05:10 PM

hmm, but from what my teacher has said.. it really puts me off from buying a 2nd hand.. since the parts in the piano will degrade over time, and some are replaced with the oem parts, that makes it a lousier piano than it originally is. 3.4k for a used U1? that's really cheap.. must be a super old set?
Posted by: WCH

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/21/07 05:44 PM

savvyguy,

You may want to find out if there is any dealer out there who offers rent-to-own or instalment plan.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/22/07 12:09 AM

savvyguy:

Whether or not a reconditioned/rebuilt piano is better or worse than the original instrument depends on the person doing it. Third-party parts are not necessarily worse than the original parts. In some cases they can be a LOT better. Pianos from reputable dealers have a lifespan of tens of years. If you scan the threads in the Piano Forum you will see that many people own instruments that are pretty old by Singapore's "new must be better" mentality.

If you have the time and patience then you should be able to find a decent second-hand upright for $3k. It may not be a Yamaha or recent Kawai, but still OK nonetheless. Of course you should also make sure that you are sufficiently educated about how to assess the condition of a used piano.

The best 'one stop' place to go is Larry Fine's "The Piano Book". I got my copy from Books Kinokuniya. Many piano shoppers arm themselves with this when they go shopping. Other than telling you about how a piano works and how to assess a used piano, he also gives a pocket summary of each vendor and the models. It covers primarily the U.S. market but many of the vendors covered sell all over the world, including in Singapore.

Larry also has a tiered ranking system that attempts to give you an idea of how good each vendor's pianos are. But this ranking system should be used only as a guide, because some of the rankings are highly controversial. You should also bear in mind that a Tier 3 piano (for example) isn't necessarily bad. It just isn't built/plays/sounds like a piano from a Tier 1 vendor. A supplement is published every year to update the vendor list and rankings.

So where do you start your search, if you are OK with a used piano. You go to dealers that are known to do good reconditioning and rebuilding. And the best place to start is Emmanuel & Sons, at the Serangoon Road end of Owen Road. Mr Kwan the owner is a friendly and helpful guy, and an expert piano tech. There are others.

Heheh. My guess is that you will end up doing what many of us doing - doubling your budget to get a good used/new piano. \:D
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 09/22/07 12:57 AM

Hi savvyguy

Very glad that you are quite well informed by teachers. Teachers advice can be right or not so right sometimes :-) But being nice, teacher usually offer the safer advice.

For some adventurous guys, who like to take risk, ask for views, hunt for the best piano money can buy, 2nd hand piano is like stock market. Got to pick the right ones base on knowledge(learnt from pass mistake).

Older yamaha, eg. 35ys onward U1 seems to have a good matured soundboard. but the parts are worn. So what to do? Order new parts, re-stings, repolish, regulate everthing.

But the question is, who install these parts, how skill are they? the can be indonesian ex piano factory sifu, can be jb tech, can be local tech, can be japanese apprentice. we really don't know. Sounds like sea of uncertainty.

Hehe, i kenna complain once by teacher that my tuning is out. After arriving, i investigate... hmmm i was sabo by the spinning ceiling fan above. After we turn off and stop the fan, no more shivering tone ;D the rotating blade somehow induce a tremolo effects on certain keys more badly due to phase interaction.

Well, 3K + for U1 of age 22~30 yrs is reasonable market price. I bought mu U1A (22yrs) at ~4200 from a dealer. So i estimate, private market is slighty lower 30% \:D
Hunt around, yahoo auction, ebay. Don't buy on impulse. As for advise or 2nd opinion.

What i meant 2nd hand is not "beat up" pianos. I mean, good condition, moderately use, not for concert pratice. Owner takes good care, upgrading or migrating. Not selling because something is wrong type. So, these pre-owned piano aren't as bad as it sounds. The only things left is "if the price is right".

So... have your pespective widen already?
or we made you more blurr?
Posted by: piano_kk

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/05/07 04:25 PM

why so silent here ???
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/06/07 08:55 PM

ya hor..... \:D

practising for exam?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/07/07 01:05 AM

...and posting in other threads mah. \:\)
Posted by: Estranged

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/08/07 03:13 AM

Hi everyone!

Newbie here...have been reading all the messages in this thread and i must say that i have learned alot about pianos from you guys!

I'm starting to learn the piano...a childhood dream of mine...rusty fingers!

Anyway, i have purchased a second hand upright kawai piano...it's a kawai US-7X from century piano in liang court. Was hoping to know a little bit more on the US series.

It's a 15 years old piano and i must admit the sound is really captivating...total damage - 5.7k with 5 years warranty and 3 free tuning. Not sure if i got a good deal..

Any advices for this new beginner?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/08/07 09:10 AM

Estranged: Welcome to PW and to this Singapore/Malaysia monster thread! It is never to late to start learning to play the piano; you'll realise that when you read more in the Adult Beginners forum (ABF) \:\)

I don't know anything about the US-7X. You might get more information if you post in the Piano forum. $5.7k seems like a lot to pay for a 15 year old piano, but a quick search online suggests that this might be one of Kawai's quality instruments (during that time). On the other hand, 5 years warranty and 3 free tunings for a 15 year old piano suggests that the dealer is pretty confident about the instrument that he sold you. \:\)
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/10/07 05:38 AM

Welcome to the thread Estranged

Pricing could be secondary issue. As long as the piano plays wonderfully, it should be worth it. And if one day you finds it was a little over price, introduce someone else to buy from uncle and ask for a commision to offset your last purchase .... hehehe

Well as a start learn the scale, appregio.. chords... learn fur elise... Are you self learning or learning from a teacher? Lots of us here are like you, returning after a long break or to re-pursue life's dream(one of) \:D

cheers
Posted by: Estranged

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/10/07 05:49 AM

Hi Snoopycar,

I'm taking private lessons from a piano teacher. Anyway the piano arrived yesterday and i'm very happy with it!!

Any ideas on the kawai US series, i'm trying to search on the specifications.

By the way, what is a upright grand?? I heard of baby grand but upright grand?? Is this a gimmick?

Thanks!
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/10/07 06:36 AM

Hi

Sometimes, large upright(132cm) are pitch as upright-grand.... big bass, big sound. Is it gimmick, perhaps. Some ppl prefer softer sound for HDB rooms.. so loud for what, wait downstair knock bamboo

Actually it's more like, oh this tall upright has long key, feels like a grand touch... and so on
As kawai has so many models, just enjoy your piano lor. Piano can be addictive, but healthy.

I'm almost an piano hobbyist addict myself haha
Posted by: Estranged

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/10/07 06:50 AM

thanks for the reply.

Loud more shiok mah...:-)
Posted by: indecisive

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/29/07 06:08 AM

hey r steigerman & wagner pianos gd? or shld i jus stick to kawai or yamaha?
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/29/07 06:27 AM

Hi Roses... If you are not rushing on your purchase, then try as many pianos as you can. Compare them. I believe Singapore have huge selection of pianos. Of course, there maybe few brands that will cost you a bomb. But no harm trying it, it will help along your piano shopping.
Regards
Posted by: rains

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/29/07 09:22 PM

Hi guys,

I'm new here. I'm getting a Yamaha U1 for my seven-year-old. Is it crazy to get a brand new one at $8600 or should I just settle for a 12-year-old second hand for $4600? I know the importance of 'depending on condition', but I'm just wondering if second hand pianos are really worth it. I'm a layman and know nuts about pianos. Is it true that Japan-imported pianos at second-hand shops do not have 'tropicalised' or 'climatised' cabinets (I'm assuming that 'cabinets' refers to the body of the piano) or even soundboard? I'm not too sure why the Yamaha salesperson say that. I thought the pianos they bring in are also shipped from Japan. Why should second-hand yamahas not 'tropicalised' while those that are sold in their retail shops are?
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/29/07 10:14 PM

Rains... if you do a search in the forum, you find a lot of debate pertaining to the season for destination, tropicalised or climatised issue I think they work the same being 70% made of wood. I remember reading it in the forum, that piano makers cured their woods the same way, maybe some cured it differently but the variation is somewhere between 1-2% EMC. On tropicalised pianos, you noticed there are few screws on the ribs. I think the edges are also applied with extra layer of something, I think is lacquer – similar material used on the soundboard. I was told this process slow-down the absorption (especially for humid tropical countries) but it doesn’t stop the absorption. In long-term (constantly at 80-90%) they will still have problems. End of the day, whether the piano is tropicalised or not, manufacturers will still suggest that piano stays between 42-65% RH. IMO, if manufacturers have suggested the same figures for both season for destination and built for the world so why worry! And, also piano warranty does not cover humidity issue. Regards.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/29/07 10:36 PM

12yr U1:
It should be worth it - if its not heavily used.
(because i'm a U1 supporter ... hehehe \:D )

Alright... with $4600, wow! u can explore 2nd hand bohemia, petrof 131 or even older U5 !!

Anyway U1 is always a safe choice. Try to get more "free tuning" package. Make sure it's standard A4-440 tuning. I known a customer who manage to get 4 free tunings!! Really, and when i was ask to tune the U1, it was quite holding its pitch at 440! As uaual, go through all the necessary checks, and ... bargain a bit.

hmm troicalized.. i'm not sure if it means anything. How about i paste a sticker "tropicalize" on your piano and charge you $2000 for insurance fees n cover your for any capentry or parts defects related for 20 yrs.... just kidding.

It should be no problem getting a used piano imported from japan domestic market. Many are sold here in Spore. They are mostly in superb condition, even smells new - really.. you know when you open the lid to inspect the internal parts, you can literaly smell the fresh just made smell. For me, i like that.

For the money saved compare to buying a new one $8600, i would say it's worth it. Use the $$ save for a good teacher - wiser investment.
(assuming the 12yr U1 is prinstine condition, not used in diploma music school where its was heavily used)

Choosing a Piano is sometime is like predestine. They comes in batches. In the batch, condition varies. If you go at wrong time, good piano are sold out, left not so good ones.
Piano are not like cars. 12yrs car you have to consider hard in Spore - UV, parts wear, fuel comsumption... road tax

Bottom line, go see and hear the U1.
It's like buying a Corolla, quality functional design. \:D
Posted by: indecisive

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/29/07 11:11 PM

okie thanks!
Posted by: nevets

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/29/07 11:16 PM

Hi. I am new here. Currently looking to buy a piano. I have 3 sons just started their piano lessons. They are age 6, 9 and 15 years old. I went to look at many brands, namely Kawai, Yamaha, Broadmann, Hailun, WIlhelm Tell, Petrof, Elington, Pearl River, etc. With so many brands, I am not sure which one is suitable for my 3 kids although I personally like the Kawai K8. I went to a used piano shop and they told me there is a shipment with a Kawai K70 coming in. Any body know the specs of a K70 and if it is good?

Thank you in advance for you advice.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/29/07 11:48 PM

Whether it is 42% or 70% RH is actually far less important than *constant* RH. It is large RH swings over long periods of time that are bad for pianos. In the tropics if you can keep the RH of the air in the vicinity of the piano around 70% (+- 5%) I think is fine.

As an example, one particular high-end piano manufactrer does not perform 'tropicalization' on their pianos. However they will honour their warranty for their grand pianos as long as the instrument is in an environment with a more or less constant RH of 75% and a full Dampp-Chaser installation. The downside with this is that this manufacturer doesn't know that it is not possible to get a full Dampp-Chaser installation in Singapore (at least not when I tried).

The bottom line is that although you have to be careful with pianos and RH, these things are actually far more hardy than you think. I have a 42 year old Schimmel console that spent its first 10 years in Singapore, then the next 9 years in a warehouse and then in Tasmania, and then back in Singapore for the 23 years to the present (but not in my home). And it is still doing OK.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jay:
Rains... if you do a search in the forum, you find a lot of debate pertaining to the season for destination, tropicalised or climatised issue I think they work the same being 70% made of wood. I remember reading it in the forum, that piano makers cured their woods the same way, maybe some cured it differently but the variation is somewhere between 1-2% EMC. On tropicalised pianos, you noticed there are few screws on the ribs. I think the edges are also applied with extra layer of something, I think is lacquer – similar material used on the soundboard. I was told this process slow-down the absorption (especially for humid tropical countries) but it doesn’t stop the absorption. In long-term (constantly at 80-90%) they will still have problems. End of the day, whether the piano is tropicalised or not, manufacturers will still suggest that piano stays between 42-65% RH. IMO, if manufacturers have suggested the same figures for both season for destination and built for the world so what is the different! And, also piano warranty does not cover humidity issue. Regards. [/b]
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/07 12:23 AM

\:D No need full dampp-chaser... half will do. Humistat plus, maybe few, dehumidifier with the right watt.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/07 03:08 AM

Use super-hippo can oredi .... hehehe
(3 for $2 @ 2dollar shop)

How is everybody?

Digitus, how are you? ... and any updates? New K8 come oredi? Solved the double strike issue?
Triangle shape 3wheel Audi A6 coming?

Where is jarjar?
Polishing recital?

Jay : dropby Singapore for Depavali??
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/07 03:40 AM

Yeah Snoop maybe.... I want to check out the Fazioli \:D ... Also the A380
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/07 04:15 AM

New K8 arrived over 2 weeks ago. Still settling in. No double-strike. It is clear that the previous K-8 had a fundamental geometry problem in the action. It's already been sent back to Japan.

The dream piano might arrive in late-March, one month earlier than anticipated. Having dinner tonight with the manufacturer (visiting Singapore for 24 hours). \:D
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/07 04:31 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jay:
Yeah Snoop maybe.... I want to check out the Fazioli \:D ... Also the A380 [/b]
A380 parking at T3. But T3 not open(is it?)
I manage to see it took off to sydney from my tampines factory!! I'm having funny ideas about the bed in the sky thing..... strange no one seems to be mentioning the obvious "funny idea". Haha haha

Yes, you gotta "wine taste" the Fazioli, or at least take a picture posing with the master tuner. Listen to the Clear/Sweet harmonics of italian wonder piano.

You've got mail.
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/07 05:38 AM

Oh yeah.. the bed.. I read it in the papers few days ago... It is a studio apartment built-in. I guess the air-ticket for that will cost a bomb. ... Since they have a studio apartment built-in, I wonder if they did consider putting a concert grand inside. Just like the cruisers....
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/07 06:09 AM

oh... for special moment, $$ no problem

Well come to think of it, it might be in the pipeline... 300kg = avg 5 persons. But maybe must get Aviation approval fist. Wonder how the piano will sound with "thinner" air, flying at subsupersonic speed.... I can be the inflight tuner.. hehehe
Posted by: Young L.

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/07 10:00 AM

 Quote:
I wonder if they did consider putting a concert grand inside.
Hmm...Isn't it too loud and heavy to place a 9 foot 500kg grand piano, maybe a baby grand. Does anyone know how grand pianos fair with constantly changing altitude and cabin pressure? ;\)
Posted by: Estranged

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/07 10:03 AM

Hi all,

Does anyone know the price of RX-2 and RX-3 in singapore?

Thanks
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 10/30/07 11:28 PM

Pop by Robert Piano for inquiry, price might differ from phone call. Centrepoint, Millenium Walk, Parway parade... + i more i always can't remember.

Just frankly ask the price say for own usage and comparing around first. Then you might hear "did you know...... kawai history da da da da.. specialze.... yamaha da da da.."

Anyway, all Kawai piano are excellent choice.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/01/07 02:08 PM

The dealer for the high-end manufacturer I was referring to has corrected me. The warranty will be honoured if the RH of the environment is between 30% and 70%, and a partial D-C system installed. 'Partial' means heater bar with humidistat, but no humidfier portion (because it's obviously not needed here in Singapore!)

 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:
Whether it is 42% or 70% RH is actually far less important than *constant* RH. It is large RH swings over long periods of time that are bad for pianos. In the tropics if you can keep the RH of the air in the vicinity of the piano around 70% (+- 5%) I think is fine.

As an example, one particular high-end piano manufactrer does not perform 'tropicalization' on their pianos. However they will honour their warranty for their grand pianos as long as the instrument is in an environment with a more or less constant RH of 75% and a full Dampp-Chaser installation. The downside with this is that this manufacturer doesn't know that it is not possible to get a full Dampp-Chaser installation in Singapore (at least not when I tried).

The bottom line is that although you have to be careful with pianos and RH, these things are actually far more hardy than you think. I have a 42 year old Schimmel console that spent its first 10 years in Singapore, then the next 9 years in a warehouse and then in Tasmania, and then back in Singapore for the 23 years to the present (but not in my home). And it is still doing OK.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jay:
Rains... if you do a search in the forum, you find a lot of debate pertaining to the season for destination, tropicalised or climatised issue I think they work the same being 70% made of wood. I remember reading it in the forum, that piano makers cured their woods the same way, maybe some cured it differently but the variation is somewhere between 1-2% EMC. On tropicalised pianos, you noticed there are few screws on the ribs. I think the edges are also applied with extra layer of something, I think is lacquer – similar material used on the soundboard. I was told this process slow-down the absorption (especially for humid tropical countries) but it doesn’t stop the absorption. In long-term (constantly at 80-90%) they will still have problems. End of the day, whether the piano is tropicalised or not, manufacturers will still suggest that piano stays between 42-65% RH. IMO, if manufacturers have suggested the same figures for both season for destination and built for the world so what is the different! And, also piano warranty does not cover humidity issue. Regards. [/b]
[/b]
Posted by: indecisive

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/04/07 09:56 AM

ello i saw a used kawai KU1 goin for abt 2k u guys think i shld get it? or shld i buy this Paco (mm im not sure bt the model) whom someone is sellin? it has no warranty coz a fren's fren is selling it...

rgds
Posted by: angy

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/09/07 08:22 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:
New K8 arrived over 2 weeks ago. Still settling in. No double-strike. It is clear that the previous K-8 had a fundamental geometry problem in the action. It's already been sent back to Japan.

The dream piano might arrive in late-March, one month earlier than anticipated. Having dinner tonight with the manufacturer (visiting Singapore for 24 hours). \:D [/b]
Digitus, I am going to checkout the K8 tomorrow. I have been following your thread regarding the K8 double strike problem. You also mentioned about the preparation as well.

Can you share with me, what should i look for, hear for?
Posted by: scalar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/09/07 11:06 PM

Hi! Guy, I new here. Wanted to buy a used piano for my children. But not sure which brand to buy. Any brand and place to recommend to buy 2nd hand piano. Budget is about S$2500- S$3000. Thanks.
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/09/07 11:53 PM

Yo Singapore market... In the 80s new pianos were selling like hot cakes, particularly European and Japanese make. You even get to see various new piano models being displayed on the floor. Today almost 90% of the shops I visited in the last few years carries only used pianos. In fact, some showroom have over 50+ used pianos on the floor. With used japanese pianos flooding into the market and introduction of chinese pianos what do you see the future of European pianos (fully European assembled pianos) and new Japanese pianos (from Japan) in Singapore?
Regards.
Posted by: indigo123

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/26/07 01:24 AM

Wah! So many adult beginners in s'pore. so glad...i'm not alone :p

I'm a great fan of Yiruma's and George Winston's music. Can someone help to recommend the type of piano that is suitable for their music? My place currently can only accomodate an upright and my budget is below 10k SGD. Guess i'll only get a grand after I got a new place and have attain some level of proficiency.
Posted by: indigo123

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/26/07 10:18 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jay:
Yo Singapore market... In the 80s new pianos were selling like hot cakes, particularly European and Japanese make. You even get to see various new piano models being displayed on the floor. Today almost 90% of the shops I visited in the last few years carries only used pianos. In fact, some showroom have over 50+ used pianos on the floor. With used japanese pianos flooding into the market and introduction of chinese pianos what do you see the future of European pianos (fully European assembled pianos) and new Japanese pianos (from Japan) in Singapore?
Regards. [/b]
Well, even though japanese cars now dominate the world mkt, upmkt european car makers still have their own followers and have maintain their stronghold in the luxury segment pretty well.

I think piano is fairly similar too. Establish top tier piano maker will continue to enjoy their prestige unless they do something silly that tarnish their own brand equity.

As for new japanese pianos, there will always be people who prefer brand new pianos becoz of the new improvements or maybe becoz there is less hassle.

\:D
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 11/26/07 09:47 PM

Very true... Toyota is one good example today....
Posted by: Gothique

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/07 02:54 AM

Hello everybody

I am also located in Singapore and looking for a piano for my new home. At my parent's place, I played on U1 from Grade 1 to 8.

Budget is $10k but I am willing to pay more if the piano is REALLY good.

Used or new piano is OK, and upright or grand is also OK (got space). The only requirement is that the tone must be on the mellow side.

General feeling is that

1.Yamaha is out due to brightness
2.Made-in-china pianos are out due to quality
3.European pianos are out due to humidity.

Any suggestions? I've seen Cristofori at Bedok, Asia Piano at Singapore Shopping Centre, Music Clef at Suntec, Prince Piano at Textile Centre, Piano Gallery at IMM, Kawai at Millenia Walk, etc... but not really able to find something that is suitable... am I being picky or what?

Anyone got recommendations? Thanks!
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/07 04:12 AM

Have you tried music lodge.... check them too.

And why European pianos are out due to humidity? If that is the case, generally all pianos should be out cause they are made of wood. Maybe one day there would be a plastic piano.

The fact is there is nothing wrong with European pianos or American pianos or Asia pianos or etc, the climate is the problem.

Nope you not picky just that you haven't found one that suit your taste.. Continue shopping no rush I am sure you will find one that is a perfect match.
Regards.
Posted by: Gothique

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/07 05:06 AM

Hi Jay

Sorry I should say, Eurpoean pianos are out due to SINGAPORE's humuidity / I don't want to spend $$ on dehumidifier and empty water bucket the whole day

I did a Yellow Page search, is this the one that you recommend? Is there anyone knowledgable working there that you recommend we can talk to? Thanks!

Music Lodge

170 Up Bt Timah Rd #01-16 Bt Timah Shopping Centre Singapore 588179
Tel : 6762 6378

I am desperate for a piano! Livign without one is quite torturous. So quite a few times wanted to just BUY but something holding me back, cuz i'll have to live with it for at least 5-10 years. haiz...
Posted by: soarer

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/07 06:25 AM

I am deciding between two used KAWAI KS-3F and had a hard time deciding which one to buy. One of them have a "Good" rating in terms of its tone as compared to "excellent" rating in terms of its touch, structure and tuning stability; whereas the other one have a "Good" rating in terms of its tuning stability as compared to "excellent" rating in terms of its tone, touch and structure. Would appreciate if anyone can highlight which would be a better choice? Thank you.
Posted by: Gothique

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/07 07:12 AM

hi soarer,

where did you see the ratings from? the shop rated its own pianos? if so, i will definitely be questioning its independence.
Posted by: soarer

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/07 10:10 AM

Hi Gothique, the ratings were from christofori. Their sales person told me their own technicians rated the used pianos they import from Japan. You think I can trust their ratings?
Posted by: Gothique

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/07 10:14 AM

Hi Soarer

We have bought a diapason from there before. overall good experience with them.

Personally tone is very important to me. So I will go for the one with the tone that I love.

As for tuning stability, I'm no technician so I can't comment. Personally i will just check that the piano is in reasonable tune, and that the internally the tuning pins, strings etc look OK then i might just go ahead with it.

good luck on your purchase!!
Posted by: soarer

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/07 10:41 AM

Hi Gothique,
Thanks for the reply!! Will go down this weekend to test on the piano again.
Posted by: sweetz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/07 10:55 AM

hi how does one rate the k5 upright?
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/07 11:00 AM

What's an upright grand? What is the model?
Posted by: pianist.ame

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/07 06:27 PM

hi,

could anyone please list me the name of shops in singapore that sells pianos, besides singapura plaza. I will be moving back next year and I need info on piano prices etc.

it would be great if any of you have the websites, price lists etc.

thanks
Amelia
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/07 08:49 PM

Gothique... when I was there last year, if I am not mistaken, I spoke to a gentlemen by name of Mr. Chng.
Posted by: Gothique

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/03/07 09:32 PM

hi Jay...

Thanks, I will get in touch with him after Christmas I think.

Hi Amelia,

There are lots of shops that sell pianos but I think website/shop doesn't give you the price list! Straits Times classifieds has a lot of adverts for pianos on Sat mornings, you should take a look and start from there.

Hi Digitus

Upright grand is just a upright that is higher than a certain height... to me I would only consider those 131 cm and above as upright grand but I guess you can see that Sweetz piano is 125cm but she also calls it upright grand. I'm not sure if there is any guideline for calling an upright an "Upright Grand", maybe someone else can enlighten!

Still searching for my piano! It's taking longer than I thought!
Posted by: indigo123

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 12:49 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jay:
Gothique... when I was there last year, if I am not mistaken, I spoke to a gentlemen by name of Mr. Chng. [/b]
Yes, the owner is Mr Chng. He runs the shop with his wife. He is a nice guy. I went there recently and was looking at the back of a piano. He immediately try his best to shift the piano for me to see even though it's so heavy.

But I have to say the terms he offered wasn't ideal with warranty of 1 year and only 1 free tuning (from what I've read, pianos need a couple of tunings before they "settle down" in a new place). I didn't bargain coz I intend to visit other places first.
Posted by: indigo123

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 01:21 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:
What's an upright grand? What is the model? [/b]
Don't worry, Digitus. Your K8 is an upright grand too
Posted by: Gothique

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 01:27 AM

Hi Indigo,

Mr Chng sounds nice. After all the recommendations, I will definitely take a look after Christmas.

As for tuning,maybe it's better to get a good tuner and pay him rather than take free tuning from the shop.
Posted by: indigo123

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 02:12 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Gothique:
Hi Indigo,

Mr Chng sounds nice. After all the recommendations, I will definitely take a look after Christmas.

As for tuning,maybe it's better to get a good tuner and pay him rather than take free tuning from the shop. [/b]
True, especially if you already have a tuner whom you trust.
Posted by: scalar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 04:21 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by soarer:
Hi Gothique,
Thanks for the reply!! Will go down this weekend to test on the piano again. [/b]
Hi! Soarer
I saw the used piano at christofori, they look good. But the only question is that all the used piano is re-conditioned. I not sure is there any issuse on that( meaning can it last). It is true that the piano sound good and the internal look good. Can anyone comment on re-condition piano.
Posted by: Gothique

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 04:36 AM

Hi Scalar

FYI, Not all used pianos are re-con. There is a difference between reconditioned used piano and repair/touched up used piano.

I would consider Cristofori's used pianos as touched up or repaired. But maybe some pianos at E & Sons is considered reconditioned. Involves some complex stuff like changing all the strings. Personally I am also not very comfortable to buy reconditioned piano.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 05:36 AM

Hi Gothique:

The question I asked was a leading question. There is no such thing as an upright grand. \:\)

The term is used as a sales gimmick. Calling an upright an "upright grand" is not meaningful because the action of a modern upright is fundamentally different from that of a grand piano. Yes, the hammers still strike the strings, but the mechanics are not the same.

Classification of an upright as an "upright grand" because it is taller is also not meaningful.

A couple of manufacturers try to mimic a grand piano's faster repetition rate by using specially designed actions, but that's about as close to a grand piano that an upright can get, action-wise.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Gothique:

Upright grand is just a upright that is higher than a certain height... to me I would only consider those 131 cm and above as upright grand but I guess you can see that Sweetz piano is 125cm but she also calls it upright grand. I'm not sure if there is any guideline for calling an upright an "Upright Grand", maybe someone else can enlighten!
[/b]
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 05:54 AM

Heheh! Welcome to the club. In the end I just went for a new K-8 because I didn't have the time nor patience to trawl through the shops and classifieds to locate a decent second-hand piano. If you read some of the threads in the Piano Forum you'll see that some people have taken months and months to find an instrument they like! \:D

 Quote:
Originally posted by Gothique:

Still searching for my piano! It's taking longer than I thought! [/b]
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 05:57 AM

Reconditioned or rebuilt pianos are not that much of a risk if the technician doing it is competent. Mr Kwan at E&S is good at his craft. Go visit his shop and talk to him, see what he's got.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Gothique:
But maybe some pianos at E & Sons is considered reconditioned. Involves some complex stuff like changing all the strings. Personally I am also not very comfortable to buy reconditioned piano. [/b]
Posted by: Gothique

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 07:30 AM

Hi Digitus

Yeah I agree with you, an upright is an upright, regardless of whatever they call it! But I guess it's just a shortcut I use so that the shop knows I am looking for a taller upright.

are you talking about the variable touch piano from kawai? well same as you, I'm not sure how much they can mimic the grand piano action! (ie I have my doubts)

and yep i saw that someone took 10 mths, but i think i will be pretty uncomfortable without a piano for 10mths... will have to keep going elsewhere to practice rather than at home.

and lastly on Mr Kwan, we almost got a piano from him. Personally I felt that his pianos is really old... perhaps for collector. No doubt he know what he is doing and have really unusual pianos. It's almost theraputic to drop by and get lost among the pianos in his shop.
Posted by: diinin

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 09:48 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Digitus:
Hi Gothique:

There is no such thing as an upright grand. \:\)

The term is used as a sales gimmick. [/b]
Upright grand...what an oxymoron.
Posted by: indigo123

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 10:16 AM

[/qb][/QUOTE]Don't worry, Digitus. Your K8 is an upright grand too [/qb][/QUOTE]

hohoho, I guess I'm too busybody!
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 10:55 AM

Aiyah, then just say that you are looking for a taller upright lah! \:\)

No, I am not referring to the variable touch piano. An example of what I mean is Sauter's Double Repetition action (see http://www.sauter-pianos.de/english/technique/sound/double_repetition.html).

As for pianos at E&S, if you have the patience to wait, Mr Kwan gets very interesting pianos coming through from time to time. For example, a couple of months ago he had a 15 year-old Yamaha C7 grand come in. I played on it before he started work on it and it already sounded pretty good. The cabinetry needed some work and the old ivory key tops were yellow and chipped. But these are things that can be rectified relatively easily.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Gothique:
Hi Digitus

Yeah I agree with you, an upright is an upright, regardless of whatever they call it! But I guess it's just a shortcut I use so that the shop knows I am looking for a taller upright.

are you talking about the variable touch piano from kawai? well same as you, I'm not sure how much they can mimic the grand piano action! (ie I have my doubts)

and yep i saw that someone took 10 mths, but i think i will be pretty uncomfortable without a piano for 10mths... will have to keep going elsewhere to practice rather than at home.

and lastly on Mr Kwan, we almost got a piano from him. Personally I felt that his pianos is really old... perhaps for collector. No doubt he know what he is doing and have really unusual pianos. It's almost theraputic to drop by and get lost among the pianos in his shop. [/b]
Posted by: scalar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 04:13 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Gothique:
Hi Scalar

FYI, Not all used pianos are re-con. There is a difference between reconditioned used piano and repair/touched up used piano.

I would consider Cristofori's used pianos as touched up or repaired. But maybe some pianos at E & Sons is considered reconditioned. Involves some complex stuff like changing all the strings. Personally I am also not very comfortable to buy reconditioned piano. [/b]
Hi!Gothique,

Thanks for the info, because the sale person at Cristofori told me, they changed the key, string and the hammer except the sound board. So I thought this consider re-condition. I'm new,no nothing on piano, that why not sure should get from them. Still looking around. Now it give me a clearer picture. Thanks.
Posted by: Estranged

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 05:49 PM

hi all,

need some help. A noob to piano. When i'm playing a particular key on my piano, there is a strange buzzing sound like "zzzz" type of sound. This is really weird and it's quite random as well. sometimes, it's fine, sometimes it's not.

the keys which has this problem seems to "fluncating" as well. sometimes, it's the middle C, sometimes, it's G.

What's wrong with my piano. I jsut had it tuned 3 weeks ago.

Thanks!
Posted by: soarer

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 08:16 PM

Hi scalar, I still got a piano from Christofori yesterday after some serious consideration. Had a talk with the sales person there and he managed to convince me to buy the KAWAI KS-3F with only a "good" rating for its tuning stability as compared to "excellent" for the others. Regardless it's recon or repair, I guess if its tone, action and touch can be produced in a way it ought to be, I guess it's fine for me. \:\) In addition, it comes with 5 yrs warranty. But anyway found out that the piano that I bought come with Louis Renner hammer heads (don't know good or not) from the previous owner.
Posted by: Gothique

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/04/07 09:18 PM

Hi Scalar,

Wow, that sounds like major work to change everything except soundboard. Er... perhaps that is considered recon liao!

When I went there, I saw that most of the pianos are in quite good condition, didn't really seems like much work was done on it. Maybe now different.

Hi Soarer,

Nice to know u got a piano liao. Enjoy it man. I always love kawai pianos. How long did u take to search for it?

Hi Digitus

I heard u guys talking about the sauter piano. is it good? I'll google it later when got time.

Yeah, after hearing what u say, I will drop by Mr Kwan's place when I get back, who knows if there's something good coming along!

By the way.. anyone got piano for sale or see a good piano for sale... please tell me. Budget $10k but can flex a bit if really good... thanks!
Posted by: soarer

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/05/07 01:00 AM

Hi gothique, I always love kawai piano as compared to yamaha. Yamaha tone is too "loud" (no offence to yamaha lovers ya, personal preference only). Used to have a toyo piano but find that the tone is too "loud" for my liking.

It took me around a month to surf around the net and made visits to 2nd hand piano sellers. Made 2 weekend visits to christofori before i place my order yesterday.
Posted by: indigo123

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/05/07 04:39 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Estranged:

What's wrong with my piano. I jsut had it tuned 3 weeks ago.
[/b]
Hi Estranged,

I assume there wasn't any 'zzz' sound before the tuning. Have you check with your tuner? If he can't solve it, you may have to look for someone who is more experience. \:\)
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/06/07 08:51 AM

You will find Sauter at www.sauter-pianos.de. They are located in Spaichingen in Germany, the same town in which they started way back in 1819. Sauter is the oldest piano manufacturer still in business today.

Do they make good pianos, you ask. Well, they rank in the top tier alongside makes such as Bluthner, Steinway, Grotrian, Steingraeber, Bosendorfer, and Fazioli.

And no, you can't get one on a $10k budget, not even an upright. :p

 Quote:
Originally posted by Gothique:

Hi Digitus

I heard u guys talking about the sauter piano. is it good? I'll google it later when got time.
[/b]
Posted by: Gothique

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/07/07 06:37 AM

Hi Digitus,

Sauter is out of my range then. Anyway, heard that need to have dehumidifier on all the time for European pianos. So it's out for me!

Going off for my trip, merry christmas everyone in advance.
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/08/07 03:00 AM

Gothique not just European pianos. Generally, all pianos don't do very well when the RH is above 70% or below 40%. That why you need a dehumidifier in this climate. I won't agree with you that only European pianos need it. I have seen Japanese pianos that are bad too in this climate.

Have a good holiday!... pheww... already end of the year.. isn't too fast... \:D
Posted by: J.C

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/09/07 09:33 AM

Recon pianos are generally in good condition however the soundboard remains unchanged which is hard for buyers to gauge whether it's really in a good condition or not. My teacher advice was to stay off recon and second hands that are older than 10 years old. that would be a safer choice but really pretty much depends on the previous owner.

Kawai music school do sell some good second hand pianos. can check it out.! =)
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/09/07 09:45 PM

...and on the technician who worked on the piano. You must ask about the history of the piano, what he found, and what was done to the piano.

 Quote:
Originally posted by J.C:
Recon pianos are generally in good condition however the soundboard remains unchanged which is hard for buyers to gauge whether it's really in a good condition or not. My teacher advice was to stay off recon and second hands that are older than 10 years old. that would be a safer choice but really pretty much depends on the previous owner.
pianos. can check it out.! =) [/b]
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/10/07 12:37 AM

JC... used market is cruel.. If a used piano (less than 5 years old) badly taken care I would stay away from it even if is less than 10 years old. Importantly is that you must have a trust worthly piano technician who can give you true report on the condition of the used piano. If a 20 years old piano, regularly service where RH constantly at 50%, I dont find any reason as to why I should ignore it. Of course, provided that you like the sound and feel. Regards.
Posted by: J.C

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/10/07 02:07 AM

well of course Jay, it all depends on where u are looking for it. =)
Posted by: guitarman

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/15/07 12:25 PM

Hi, i'm new and have been reading the thread that dates back to 2006 with interest. Its interesting to know there's piano/music loving community here.

I am currently in a predicament of selecting a piano for my son. I myself dont play piano (though i do play other instruments) and have followed the various advice from the various experts here and gone through a few shops and have shortlisted 3 pianos (i have yet to see the Petrof and Brodmann... will probably do so next week). They are
1. Yamaha U1/U3
2. Kawai K3/K5/K6
3. Bohemia 125/132

Of the 3, i am impressed by the K5/K6 most, though i think the Bohemia sounds warm and mellow to my liking as well.

The thing is, everyone of the shops i go to will say something not so nice about Kawai except Robert. I am beginning to wonder what's wrong with Kawai. From what i listen to when i was at robert's .... it sounds wonderfully good. I tried also the SK3 and Steinway (not sure if its A or B) ... i'd say the SK3 is quite close to Steinway though the Steinway sounds much more expansive, if you know what i mean.

The U1 is ok, but i'd prefer the sound of the U3... but might not want to stretch that far for my 4 year old.

Can someone enlighten me please? I'd prefer to buy new, but do you think if i get a new U3 or K6 is a little too much of an indulgence for a young new beginner like my 4 year old? He is showing a lot of interest to learn though.

I will check out the Petrof too... but is it worth checking?

Thanks!
Posted by: J.C

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/16/07 11:41 AM

it's really common for the sales person to diss other brands. i go to kawai they diss yamahas and all the china brands and well. it's the same on the other side.

For beginners a u1 or k3 is really considered very very good pianos. well my teacher told me i don't need such a good one since i'm just starting. but well that's his opinion. i tried the Kawai k3 and k5. prefer k5.

i recently bought a second hand kawai from robert's piano. service's not bad. they know what they are selling. =p

but hey getting a good new piano has good resale value in case u wish to trade it in for smth better in the future. my opinion. a K6 is too much for a young beginner personally i feel that k5 and k6 is leaning towards those traning up to perform and advanced stuff.

most importantly is that you like the piano and the sound of it. you will be the one listening to yr son play anyway. =)
Posted by: guitarman

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/16/07 11:40 PM

Thanks for the advice.
How about Petrof? is it worth considering comparing it with Yamaha/Kawai ?
Posted by: eFatz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/18/07 09:22 PM

Hello guys i'm new here, also from singapore..
anyway in response to guitarman's post, Petrof is not really made with the tropical climate in mind, and under the heat and humidity, they can cause many problems. My advice is not to get a petrof.
As for the 2 japanese giants, yamaha and kawai, i won't tell you not to buy, but counter-advice is that after 1993 when the economic bubble burst, japan moved a lot of their facilities overseas, yamaha to jakarta, and kawai to china. So even new models like YUS5 and K8 claim to be "fully assembled in japan", it is assembled in japan alright, but not all parts are manufactured in japan (means they manufacture the parts in indonesia/china, ship to japan for assembly). Although the performance of such instruments are not too adversely affected, the durability is. But of course to protect their names, for grand pianos, all the parts are 100% made in japan. I mean, after i tried their uprights and grands, i feel that there is a significant rift in quality between uprights and grands.
So, what is your best bet? well i would think if you are willing to shell out 15000 for a yamaha YUS5, then why not add another 1000 or 2000 to get a german upright (maybe a ronisch or a seiler from cristofori, go to their showroom in funan or the bedok warehouse). i personally went down to try and felt that the ronisch pianos felt much more solid than the kawais..
so yeah, i know this is a long first post, but just some information that i have.
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/18/07 09:26 PM

Care to explain how a piano is made for tropical climate?
Posted by: eFatz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/18/07 09:29 PM

i'm not too sure myself (since i play only, regarding this mechanical things, i ask my technician).
but two independent parties (both my technician and the old guy at chiu piano) have told me that they have seen cracked soundboards on petrof pianos in singapore
so ... yeah, i guess better not buy a petrof
Posted by: eFatz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/18/07 09:42 PM

ok sorry guitarman i didn't read your previous post.
So you are not looking for something top of the line. Well, if that is the case, then i guess your best bet is to go to AsiaPiano. The reason i recommend them is that i have done two deals (one my student, one not) with them in the past and up till now the comment is still quite good, and more importantly, they have something like a "money-back guarantee". So, let's say in the first 2 years, your son somehow decides that he doesn't want to learn any more, you can sell the piano back to them at 70% of your purchase price. in this way, the risk becomes much smaller and you don't end up losing a large chunk of money..
Posted by: Jay

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/19/07 12:47 AM

How many petrofs with crack soundboard? Is it only petrof? I've played on a knight with crack board too. If the piano is not properly taken care because of the owner's negligence, you can’t say is manufacturer's fault or the product is inferior?

I am sorry but sometimes I think it is unfair to discredit a company because of owner’s negligence. Cracking soundboard happens (except laminated boards) if the climate is too dry or the fluctuation of humidity is too great from too dry to too wet and vice versa as a result the glues give way.

"It is the climate not the piano"

Yamaha, Kawai or Petrof are established brand and good quality pianos. There is nothing wrong with any of these pianos. The only different is that they use different materials, different scaling, different construction and so on. As a result they sound differently and feel differently from one another. Try all these pianos. Play as much as you can. Ignore the salesman. Finally pick the one that you like.
Posted by: snoopycar

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/19/07 02:26 AM

Oh crack soundboard is not as bad
as crack ribs... \:D

Anyone attending piano recital at Art House on 28th Dec 7.30pm.
Pianist: Alexander
Piano: Tadah... Fazioli !!!

I'm going yeah..yeah yeah (So young, Corrs)
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/19/07 02:33 AM

Hi eFatz, and welcome to PW, and our own little thread!

If some parts are not made in Japan does not mean poorer quality or lower durability. The American Tier One manufacturer Mason & Hamlin recently switched the source of their action parts from Renner to a Chinese company. And of course they were slammed for it. But I doubt that M&H would do such a thing if they felt that it compromised the quality of their pianos.

In the car industry BMW and Mercedes Benz source their parts from around the world. It doesn't mean that their cars are somehow less reliable or of poorer quality than if all the parts were made in Germany. For example, BMW and MB buy some of their wiring harnesses from a factory in China. That factory's quality is higher than any other source of wiring harnesses that those two car makers buy from. I know, because my brother owns that factory.

Jay is right. Listen to what you hear from the various dealers with polite skepticism. The ultimate arbiters are your fingers and ears, and some research. If you like the piano and the price is right then put it on your shortlist.

As for the issues with Petrof, they could very well be due to owner negligence. Or it could be the use of construction methods that don't stand up well in a tropical climate. Or both. We just don't know.

The best thing is to treat your piano right from the start and you will be rewarded with years, sometimes a lifetime, of pleasure. Make sure that the relative humidity around the piano is within safe limits, and have the piano tuned and serviced regularly.
Posted by: guitarman

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/19/07 11:30 AM

Thanks for all your advice. They are invaluable and will be taken into consideration in my decision making process.

I tend to agree with digitus that the quality of parts sourced from China or other 3rd world countries are not necessarily inferior in quality to those from the traditionally superior Germany or Japan. But the reputation of these countries have yet to match the more illustrious counterpart.

Having said that, i did sample some made in china pianos without being told they were made in china (cant remember the brand)... and i did think the sound was fabulous until someone told me its from China, and suddenly, its no longer viewed the same way. I know i am guilty of pre-judging a product base on its country of manufacture... but i am only human. i hope that someday, pianos made in china will be viewed (and sound) the same way as those made in japan, if not better... at a fraction of the price.

Coming back to the piano search, i have decided on the K5 ... as its sound-price-value suits me. Afterall, i am buying for my 4 year old to start learning. i think to many, the K5 is already a very good piece of piano to start off with. When he is ready someday, i'll not hesitate to replace it with get a better one.

Thanks all for your sharing your views and knowledge.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/19/07 09:01 PM

Guitarman: Congratulations on your choice of a fine instrument!

You don't have to apologise for your reaction to made-in-China pianos. When Japan was struggling to re-invent itself after World War II goods made in Japan also got the same kind of reaction.

Actually the availability of cheap Japanese, Korean, and now also Chinese pianos is causing a lot of anxiety in the piano world. There is major rationalisation going on, and many old and established makes are either being bought out or else going out of business altogether.
Posted by: eFatz

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/19/07 10:11 PM

Yo to Jay and Digitus!
well, i have learned at a very early age not to trust SALES personnel. (sorry if i offended any sales people here)
The person who told me about these is actually my piano technician. Yes, he works for one of the major piano dealers in singapore (i won't name which one), but i do believe he is fair, as he gives me very impartial comments about the pianos that his company deals with.
The thing about Japanese pianos with foreign parts is this: the PERFORMANCE will not be affected, but the DURABILITY is. this means, within the first 5 years you should not see any problems, but after 5 years the problems will start to surface. The older Yamahas and Kawais made before 1993 are extremely hardy and durable, they should not give you any mechanical problems within the first 20 years of purchase, but my technician has told me that the recent pianos that he has serviced, a lot of the new yamahas and kawais are starting to have snapped strings in the first 5 years.
As for Petrof, i do think they have a very sweet tone indeed, but the mechanical aspect is not good, as in, i don't like the touch and as i have said, more than 1 experienced techncian has told me about cracked soundboard in singapore.
Posted by: Digitus

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/21/07 02:25 AM

See this thread for some perspective: Give me a reason to buy new , particularly the comments by John Pels.
Posted by: doremi

Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano - 12/22/07 09:34 PM

I am not from Singapore, but I have enjoyed this thread so much, I have read every page of it! The views expressed in this thread are very down to earth, whereas