Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?

Posted by: Larry

Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 12:22 AM

The following is the lyrics to a song from the theatrical production "Cootie Shots"....

(The performance begins with a young boy on his knees, or sitting at this school desk, alone on stage. It is important that the audience not see his shoes. He sings the following song about "Show and tell", and what he brought to it: )

Who knew when it would come my turn,
Their jaws would drop, my cheeks would burn?
I’m standing there for all the world to see.

I didn’t have a thing to share.
I only brought two things to wear.
That make me happy, make me tall.
They can laugh, but I’m above them all.


(he stands, revealing that he is wearing a pair of high heels)

In Mommy’s high heels the world is beautiful,
Let the peasants choke way down below.
I’m standing high above the crowds,
My head is breaking through the clouds.
In Mommy’s high heels I’m ten feet tall!

In Mommy’s high heels life’s a fantasy;
Ev’ry wish I make is a decree!
Let Sissy keep her shrunken heads,
Let Mary walk her dog who’s dead.
In Mommy’s high heels I have it all!!

Here the world is beautiful:
Forests of coat racks and shoe trees,
A land of hope and shopping sprees!
When I grow up I’ll have the cash
To go and buy a bag to match!

So let them say I’m like a girl!
What’s wrong with being like a girl?!
And let them jump and jeer and whirl—
They are the swine, I am the pearl!
And let them laugh and let them scream!
They’ll be beheaded when I’m queen!
When I rule the world! When I rule the world!
When I rule the world, in my mommy’s high heels!


Is this something you would want your 5 year old or 9 year old to see?

Broadway play? Off Broadway? New MTV video?

No. This is being taught to school children from kindergarten through 6th grade in California.

"Cootie Shots: Theatrical Inoculations Against Bigotry for Kids, Parents and Teachers" is a collection of skits and stories with followup textbooks designed for elementary school classrooms, performed for kids in Kindergarten through 6th grade, in the words of the Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network who produced this - for the purpose of "promoting tolerance"....

I have no problem with people living their own lives as they choose. It is none of my business. But this is where I have a problem. This group of homosexual activists estimate that they have taught this course in "tolerance" to around 25,000 school children between K and 6th in California. Living your own life as you see fit is your business not mine (you being used generically). But when you start indoctrinating little children, you've crossed the line.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 12:47 AM

Sick.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 01:07 AM

I think it's touching. The problem isn't with the children. K-6 is too young to understand that there might be sexual inuendo behind this. To them it is a story about acceptance.

What's being "indoctrinated"? Respect for others? Is this what you have such a problem with?

The problem isn't with the children. It's with the bigots.

Grow up.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 01:12 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
I think it's touching. [/b]
Touching? Disgusting is the word you're looking for. If not, it should be. Besides, you can't shoot an M4 well in high heels.
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 01:29 AM

Bernard, kids in kindergarten up through 6th grade do not need to be concerned with sex. This has nothing to do with bigotry. It has *everything* to do with a homosexual agenda to indoctrinate children.

I tried my best to make sure I was clear that I don't care what you do in your personal life, nor do I pass judgment. But you've now called me a bigot, so I will not keep on the kid gloves. The homosexual community is doing themselves in. You started by saying you just wanted to be accepted. Fine. You do not need to teach kindergarten and grade school children this kind of stuff to be accepted. And if you and the rest of the homosexual community doesn't figure this out, you will find the tide turn against you, and you'll end up having to hide in the closet again.

"Touching" is not the word I would use. Disgusting is a good one. Leave our children alone.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 01:40 AM

 Quote:
Bernard, kids in kindergarten up through 6th grade do not need to be concerned with sex. This has nothing to do with bigotry. It has *everything* to do with a homosexual agenda to indoctrinate children.
Exactly what is being indoctrinated? Answer me that, at least!

 Quote:
I tried my best to make sure I was clear that I don't care what you do in your personal life, nor do I pass judgment. But you've now called me a bigot, so I will not keep on the kid gloves. The homosexual community is doing themselves in. You started by saying you just wanted to be accepted. Fine. You do not need to teach kindergarten and grade school children this kind of stuff to be accepted. And if you and the rest of the homosexual community doesn't figure this out, you will find the tide turn against you, and you'll end up having to hide in the closet again.
Larry, you pathetic little twerp. You cannot TEACH homosexuality!! Got it!?

BUT, you can teach acceptance of people.

 Quote:
"Touching" is not the word I would use. Disgusting is a good one. Leave our children alone.
I was a child.
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 01:47 AM

 Quote:
Larry:
It has *everything* to do with a homosexual agenda to indoctrinate children. [/b]
What I can't figure out, is "why."

The outcome-based perspective (I'm guessing), is that somehow, this will teach tolerance, or perhaps I dunno, boys can come to school in a dress and just fit in, no problem?

What the heck do the gays want? To be put on a pedestal? To be admired, revered, what? Do they hope that they can somehow convince children to "give it a try someday" and recruit for the gay lifestyle? Sure seems like that is the main message, but one that no gay would ever vocalize.

There is no stop to this, it's like a cancer growing, it's relentless. Everywhere you turn, one way or another, TV, newspaper front page, news, radio, everywhere it's - "in your face." Well, maybe not everywhere, but we are the gay marriage capital of the world right now, so maybe I'm over-reacting. Yes, I've had enough of gays and their unending agenda, whatever the hell it is (civil unions are NOT good enough, we want to pretend we're a mommy and daddy)

And I could not agree more with Larry: Leave our kids alone!!

Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 02:06 AM

Larry, you pathetic little twerp. You cannot TEACH homosexuality!! Got it!?[/b]

Gee Berdnard, you leave me no choice now, do you?

Yes, you *can* teach homosexuality. You can do it by screwing with little kids' minds, shoving stuff in their faces before they're ready to deal with it, at an age when they are full of questions, and vulnerable to input from anything and everyone, and end up with confused, scarred adolescents who weren't "born queer", but who now carries a load of guilt and confusion as a result of actions they've taken as a result of all this suggestion.

You've never had a kid, you have no concept of what I'm talking about. Kids will "experiment" in small innocent ways, out of curiosity. Shove this crap in their faces and you end up screwing with their minds. "Let's play doctor" might end up with an "experiment" that goes a little further than it should, and scar the kid for life. But of course, you sick perverts don't mind, do you? You don't want to be accepted, you want to screw up as many little kids as you can, so more of them will sit around their apartments wondering if they are queer or straight, talking to their birds.

Don't **** me off, Bernard. I don't care what anyone does in their own personal adult life. But the homosexual community is crossing a line that is going to backfire. Instead of trying to get in a ****ing contest with me, you need to be thinking about the message I'm trying to convey. If you don't, you're going to see the straight community's tolerance level - all 98% of them -take a steep drop.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 02:11 AM

 Quote:
The outcome-based perspective (I'm guessing), is that somehow, this will teach tolerance, or perhaps I dunno, boys can come to school in a dress and just fit in, no problem?
Exactly. It will teach tolerance and it will teach a moral. It is like the moral behind the "Grinch That Stole Christmas". There is good in everyone.

 Quote:
What the heck do the gays want? To be put on a pedestal? To be admired, revered, what?
No. They want to feel accepted for who they are. I am very sure it must be very difficult for someone who never had to fear ostracization from society (can you imagine???!!!) what it is like to know, that according to some, your life is a waste?

 Quote:
Do they hope that they can somehow convince children to "give it a try someday" and recruit for the gay lifestyle? Sure seems like that is the main message, but one that no gay would ever vocalize.
That is your confusion speaking and I do not hold it against you. The very simple fact is the number of homosexuals who wish to "convert" straights is a small minority.

 Quote:
There is no stop to this, it's like a cancer growing, it's relentless.
Rights are a cancer? Perhaps that deserves more thought.

 Quote:
Everywhere you turn, one way or another, TV, newspaper front page, news, radio, everywhere it's - "in your face." Well, maybe not everywhere, but we are the gay marriage capital of the world right now, so maybe I'm over-reacting. Yes, I've had enough of gays and their unending agenda, whatever the hell it is (civil unions are NOT good enough, we want to pretend we're a mommy and daddy)
Yes, you are over-reacting and you know it. God bless you. I know it must not be easy for you because you have societal pressure at your heels. Hey! I was thinking that homosexuals could use the word "merry" instead of "marry". You know--a homonym for marriage. "Be gay and merry!" "Be straight and marry!"

I know you're a good person. Have a drink. Sleep on it. You, your spouse, your children aren't going to be any different tomorrow because of the gay "agenda" whatever that is!?

 Quote:
And I could not agree more with Larry: Leave our kids alone!!
And I am just wondering what you would have to say to me as a child, stranger in a strange land?
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 02:14 AM

The very simple fact is the number of homosexuals who wish to "convert" straights is a small majority.[/b]


What an interesting, telling Freudian slip *that* was.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 02:31 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
The very simple fact is the number of homosexuals who wish to "convert" straights is a small majority.[/b]


What an interesting, telling Freudian slip *that* was. [/b]
I'm surprised you believe in Freudian slips Larry. But as one who does believe in them (although sometimes a pencil is just a pencil), it is interesting indeed, but not as you probably suspect.

What is the "opposite" sex to a homosexual male? The opposite sex of a homosexual male is a male. If a certain part of a homosexual man's brain is feminized, it would only stand to reason that he would be attracted to that which is not feminine, hence heterosexual men may be the biggest "turn on". I'm sure heterosexual men comprise a great many homosexual fantasy. This is the delimna for some homosexual men. This does not mean that a homosexual man is attracted to every heterosexual man he sees. Sorry, but I felt the need to emphasize that. You heterosexuals are safe.

But this has little to do with the topic at hand, which some see as "recruitment". YOU CANNOT RECRUIT HOMOSEXUALS! How many times does it have to be said?!
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 02:50 AM

 Quote:
You've never had a kid, you have no concept of what I'm talking about.
Idiot. I was a kid!

 Quote:
Kids will "experiment" in small innocent ways, out of curiosity. Shove this crap in their faces and you end up screwing with their minds.
The more you spew, the more I think you're the one who's screwed.

 Quote:
"Let's play doctor" might end up with an "experiment" that goes a little further than it should, and scar the kid for life. But of course, you sick perverts don't mind, do you? You don't want to be accepted, you want to screw up as many little kids as you can, so more of them will sit around their apartments wondering if they are queer or straight, talking to their birds.
You're a pathetic little man, Larry. How sad that an alpha male like you could be reduced to a quivering mass of hysteria over people who aren't the least bit interested in you.

 Quote:
Don't **** me off, Bernard.
Oooooh.

 Quote:
I don't care what anyone does in their own personal adult life.
Yes you do.

 Quote:
But the homosexual community is crossing a line that is going to backfire. Instead of trying to get in a ****ing contest with me, you need to be thinking about the message I'm trying to convey.
Larry, you get in ***ing contests with everyone. I'm just being normal.

 Quote:
If you don't, you're going to see the straight community's tolerance level - all 98% of them -take a steep drop.
Maybe in the south.
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 02:54 AM

The Freudian slip was "small majority", Bernard.

And yes, you *can* recruit. And you can psychologically damage a small child, or cause them to act out in ways that end up scarring them, for life. I'm sorry you aren't capable of understanding that, but it is a fact nonetheless.

If it isn't psychological recruitment Bernard, just what is the purpose of teaching a 5 year old tolerance? Any parent here will tell you that little kids are the most open, tolerant creatures you'll find. They don't know *not* to be tolerant. So why do your queer friends feel the need to teach a 5 year old tolerance?

I'll tell you why. They aren't teaching tolerance. They are indoctrinating children. And I am reaching the point of dropping my tolerance for it. Yes Bernard, I have always been tolerant of homosexuals, having no opinion on it one way or the other. I am beginning to develop an opinion however. Your defense of these perverts is pushing me faster and faster toward that opinion too.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:05 AM

 Quote:
Any parent here will tell you that little kids are the most open, tolerant creatures you'll find.
Unfortunately, their parents and society are not always so tolerant. If they see that everyone has hopes and desires they may be less likely to develop attitudes that not only make other lives miserable; their lives will be more beautiful and less negative too.

People are afraid to expose their children to homosexuality. Understandable at this point in history. But the answer is not continued "mum" on the subject. If children see that their parents or elders don't have a problem with homosexuals, they wont have a problem with them either and they will live happier lives because of it. And they won't be screwed up by it. The screwing up comes as a result of experiencing something that their parents view as "abnormal".

(And for everyone else, why, yes--I corrected my "freudian slip". I'm only human after all.)
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:06 AM

Bernard, you seem like a nice guy. You handled my rant very soft-spoken, whereas you could have easily thrown your own rant.

Regarding your statement:
"YOU CANNOT RECRUIT HOMOSEXUALS! How many times does it have to be said?!"

I used to believe this was the case, but no more. What I see here in Portland is a powerful activist homosexual group, it's political. And, they could overall give a damn about teaching tolerance, because they have themselves shown how their growing power makes them intolerant.

You want to teach tolerance to little kids? Fine. Use what they have in their peer group: Latinos, Blacks, fat kids, goofy looking kids. Teach tolerance at that level, and it will be part of their education.

But no. The idea is to teach a gay lifestyle, to mess up kids with a subject they know nothing about, and need not know anything about for many years. Teach them early to consider the "rightness" of being gay, of experimenting and then hope that in the course of their experimentation, they become converts to the cause, the political/power cause.

To say "YOU CANNOT RECRUIT HOMOSEXUALS! How many times does it have to be said?!" -- is an opinion. I have seen and heard ex homosexuals talk about this, most recently an ex-homosexual addressing the County Board on their decision. We have all been led to believe by the gay community over the years that gays cannot be made. Well, I think that's true for the most part, but the K-6 programs are designed to do just that: recruit. Maybe not when in 1st grade, but plant the seed and hope it will grow. As a political power base, it is essential to those activists that this power base grows, any...way...possible.

I commented to my wife, how it was such a Big Deal when Madonna kissed that other woman, yet just about every night on our local news, we get to see two men or two women passionately kissing and everyone around them cheering and clapping.

I've had enough of this gay movement, even though it looks like they will "win" what they want by clever manipulation of the State's constitution. And frankly, I don't care one whit what the gays think about my changed attitude.

And from talking with friends around here that have tried to be as tolerant as possible over the years, this sentiment is growing, and growing into hatred.

Just my honest opinion. Sorry you don't like it.
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:09 AM

Idiot. I was a kid![/b]

Being a kid and having a kid are two different things, moron. (Please note that the name calling was started by Bernard. I'm just returning fire)

You're a pathetic little man, Larry. How sad that an alpha male like you could be reduced to a quivering mass of hysteria over people who aren't the least bit interested in you.[/b]

I've hardly been reduced to a "quivering mass of hysteria", birdman. I am sick and tired of having your perversion shoved in my face. I'm sick and tired of you perverts going after innocent children. And you have a lot of nerve calling me a pathetic little man, Bernard. You're the overly sensitive homosexual sitting around talking to little birdies, not me.

I don't care what anyone does in their own personal adult life.

Yes you do.[/b]

I have been quite consistent in remaining out of discussions about homosexuals, and in repeatedly stating my position of not caring what people do in private. You just want to argue, and don't have the brain power to do it.

Larry, you get in ***ing contests with everyone. I'm just being normal.[/b]

You couldn't be normal if your life depended on it.


Maybe in the south.[/b]

Nice, Bernard. You try to paint me as a homophobe, and you show yourself to be a bigot.

The issue is not *your* personal agenda, Bernard. You have your own issues that need to be dealt with. The issue is the fact that homosexual activists are indoctrinating small children under the guise of teaching "tolerance" to children so young they don't know anything *but* tolerance. Only an idiot, or a pervert, would fail to see the agenda. And I for one have had enough of it.
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:15 AM

And from talking with friends around here that have tried to be as tolerant as possible over the years, this sentiment is growing, and growing into hatred.[/b]

And this is the warning I was attempting to convey to Bernard, before he chose to turn it into a war of personal attacks. He refuses to learn. Too bad. Let's hope the rest of the homosexual community is smarter than Bernard is, or the backlash you describe and that I have repeatedly mentioned is going to grow. A homosexual with an open mind and no chip on their shoulder will see that I am trying to help. Bernard only sees his chip.
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:18 AM

Unfortunately, their parents and society are not always so tolerant.[/b]

Then teach THEM[/b] tolerance Bernard, and leave the little children alone!!!!!!

Damn.....
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:20 AM

 Quote:
I used to believe this was the case, but no more. What I see here in Portland is a powerful activist homosexual group, it's political. And, they could overall give a damn about teaching tolerance, because they have themselves shown how their growing power makes them intolerant.
Rvaga, there is so much in your post I could respond to but not at this time. This quote however requires some feedback.

You are right. I have known homosexuals like that. There is a lot in the homosexual community that is not good. Please, have compassion, and try to understand that these are people who have been denied practically everything since the day they were born. Of course many of them are angry and many of them are acting out in your face. Please try to ignore those, and bear in mind that there are a great many silent and quiet homosexuals.

As Ariel so well said in another thread, what we see in homosexual behavior is not so much the result of homosexuality, but the result of growing up homosexual in a straight society that is blind.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:31 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
many of them are acting out [/b]
Isn't this what one says about immature five year olds, not immature 25 and 35 and 45 year olds?

The latest outrage: King & King



A North Carolina couple is outraged by a book their first-grade daughter brought home from the school library in which a prince finds his true love ? in the form of another prince.

Prince Bertie waves off a bevy of eligible princes before falling for Prince Lee, the Associated Press reported. The book ends with the two "marrying" and sharing a kiss.

The principal of Freeman Elementary School defended the book.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:33 AM

I have to go to bed but before I do, Larry, I must get in another laugh. Ha!

I will let those who know me personally, decide for themselves whether or not I am a pervert. Whether or not I carry a chip on my shoulder. Whether or not I am smart (whoever said I was?).

As far as personal attacks go, again, I'll let everyone who's been around here for a while decide who it is who's modus operandi is to go on the attack.

 Quote:
You try to paint me as a homophobe, and you show yourself to be a bigot.
Oh, I know. I just though you'd appreciate what it was like having the shoe on the other foot. Damn those southerners!! Rednecks! The whole lot of 'em.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:39 AM

[This post will come back later if necessary.]
Posted by: DT

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 07:41 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
Hey! I was thinking that homosexuals could use the word "merry" instead of "marry". You know--a homonym for marriage. [/b]
OK. Here's where my homophobia comes out.

"Marry" and "merry" are homophones, i.e. words that have the same sound but are spelled differently.

Homographs are spelled the same but pronounced differently, e.g. lead, to go in front of, and lead, the metal.

Homonyms are spelled the same and have the same sound but have different meanings and different derivations, e.g., bear, the animal and bear, to carry.

Unfortunately, our education system has these homo's all messed up and homonym has become the common, yet incorrect, usage.

DT
word bigot
Posted by: RKVS1

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 08:21 AM

DT, since you seem to know this stuff, is there a term for words which are spelled and pronounced the same but mean the opposite?

One example is "cleave" which can mean "to seperate", as in meat cleaver, or to "cling together" ,as in husband and wife (the subject of this thread notwithstanding). (I didn't chose that word to be a smarta$$, it was just the first example I could think of. I think there are but a few more.

Bob
Posted by: DT

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 08:54 AM

I think they are called Kerryphones.
Posted by: plays88skeys

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 08:56 AM

Wow. I think I'll just tiptoe on outta here...
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 09:37 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
Sick bastards. [/b]
Absolutely.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 09:43 AM

From personal experience...

In my neighborhood there's a 10 year old boy with a homosexual uncle. He started sharing 'tricks' with my same age son a while ago that he learned from his uncle....

games to play,
things to say,
ways to pass a rainy day
things not appropriate to share in this forum.

This kids little brother now is trying to get my daughter and her friend to play "kiss my peepee" and other stuff. I talk with these kids. They love their uncle. They have no idea this type of behavior is innappropriate.

I know children will be children and play whatever silly sex games they will.

I resent it being introduced into this innocent community of children by some gay uncle who wants his nephew to **** his ****.

I don't mean to focus or accuse a member of the gay community, altho I'd like to see this guy stay out of our neighborhood. (and incidentally I've talked with him). I just want to illustrate that it is inappropriate for children to be exposed to sexuality by those who are not their parents. It should not be taught in schools.

For many of us, sexuality is not something to be taken so lightly.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 09:44 AM

whoopsie
Posted by: ny1911

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 09:46 AM

As a parent, what concerns me more is that the school administrators (at least in the case of the King & King story) are not responding to the parents' concerns.

Tolerance does not need to be taught with a specific subject matter. Teaching it to elementary aged students with material oriented towards sexuality is way over the line.

There are aspects of my life that would not really be accepted by much of society. I haven't come out of the closet to my friends yet...as we dine together they have no idea that there is a .380 in my pocket and a small aresenal locked up safe. I'm OK with that because I've taken the time to understand their position and the effort required to make them "accept" these things is a wedge that would be driven between us. You can argue that this analogy is "different" because mine is based on a choice, not a predisposition. It is, however, a symptom of who I am...

Quote from Gryphon:
"Besides, you can't shoot an M4 well in high heels."

This, to me, is hillarious.
Wasn't Carrie Fisher wearing heels in "The Blues Brothers" when she shot the M16 in the flood control culvert?
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 10:41 AM

View from a parent:

There is too much intolerance among kids towards other races, religions, ethnicities, and - yes - gays.

In a perfect world children learn values, morals, tolerance, etc. from their parents. In the real world either too many kids learn the wrong values, morals, and to be intolerant, or they learn nothing at home. As a result, schools should have a role in reinforcing positive values, tolerance, and so forth.

How they present this issue will be extremely important in determining how the message is received. I'm not so sure that a kid on stage in high heels is the right way to present the issue. Some parents will not have a problem with this. Some parents will be uncomfortable with this. Some parents will say "homosexuality is against my religion, and I don't want my kids exposed to this." The end result will be a lot of parents exercising their right to not have their kids exposed to the play, through lawsuits, pressure on the school, or simply taking their kids out of school for the day(s) it is being shown, and refusing to allow their kids to have any part in any curriculum associated with it. So, you will end up with a lot of bad will from those parents, and a lot of "preaching to the converted" towards the other parents.

My daughter goes to a private school that I pay a lot of money for. My daughter's teachers think I'm a pain, because I complain that they do too much extra stuff that takes time away from learning. Tolerance should be taught as issues arise in the classroom - bullying, name calling, etc. If schools need an outside theatre organization introduce tolerance, they are not competent.
Posted by: ny1911

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:26 AM

Your first point is interesting to me. My town is significantly diverse...while my kids are young, they don't seem to notice the outward differences in their peers. Maybe that will all change when they get deeper into the machine.

Your second statement I can't quite reconcile. I don't think others' values are "wrong" unless they are contrary to what society has mandated by law (even that is a gray area); they are either in agreement or disagreement with our own. If someone wants to teach their kids to hate [insert qualifier here], the schools have no business telling them otherwise. The problems arise when kids act out on their hatred in a manner that either causes disruption to the education process, or is actively projected at an individual group. This should be handled via discipline, IMO.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Phlebas:
View from a parent:

There is too much intolerance among kids towards other races, religions, ethnicities, and - yes - gays.

In a perfect world children learn values, morals, tolerance, etc. from their parents. In the real world either too many kids learn the wrong values, morals, and to be intolerant, or they learn nothing at home. As a result, schools should have a role in reinforcing positive values, tolerance, and so forth.
[/b]
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:34 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ny1911:
[QB]
Your second statement I can't quite reconcile. I don't think others' values are "wrong" unless they are contrary to what society has mandated by law (even that is a gray area); they are either in agreement or disagreement with our own. If someone wants to teach their kids to hate [insert qualifier here], the schools have no business telling them otherwise. The problems arise when kids act out on their hatred in a manner that either causes disruption to the education process, or is actively projected at an individual group. This should be handled via discipline, IMO.

There are positive and negative values. When I observe parents using the worst kind of racial slurs in front of their kids, telling their kids it's ok to bully, it's ok to have boyfriends and girlfriends in 3rd grade - all of which I have observed - that is teaching negative values. Schools can and should counteract that. The question is how do they do it.
Posted by: Luke's Dad

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:37 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
And let them laugh and let them scream!
They’ll be beheaded when I’m queen!
When I rule the world! When I rule the world!
When I rule the world, in my mommy’s high heels!


[/b]
Yep, this is just teaching tolerance :rolleyes: .
Posted by: ny1911

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:47 AM

It is awful to see that kind of behavior from parents; even worse to see it taught to the kids.

I just worry about the lack of a line of demarcation. Whenever I find myself trying to apply the laws of unintended consequences to these situations, I err on the side of personal freedoms over the apparent greater good. Sometimes, like in the case of gays, you can have 2 equally justifiable, opposite positions that are rooted in cultural or philosophical differences (a la Larry and Barnard). You've used an extreme, but valid example of parental values that a teacher would view as negative. But what if that teacher decides that Johnny's parents are teaching negative values because they drive an SUV?

I say let the teachers teach the academics and provide positive values through example. I guess I'm ultimately saying that these value issues should be part of the school environment, but not part of the curriculum.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:48 AM

Did you notice that the "normal" kids carry shrunken heads and dead cats for show and tell, while the one in high heels is presented as the reasonable one. That is, if a boy wanting to be queen is reasonable.
 Quote:
ny1911:
Wasn't Carrie Fisher wearing heels in "The Blues Brothers" when she shot the M16 in the flood control culvert? [/b]
You see how well she did.
Posted by: Luke's Dad

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:51 AM

The biggest problem with the song is that it implies a superiority to crossdressers over regular folk. that's not teaching tolerance, that's saying "If you want to rule the world, be a crossdresser".

Th other thing is it's not teaching anything about homosexuality, it's about crossdressers. Crossdressing has nothing to do with homo or hetero sexuality. Their are gay crossdressers and straight crossdressers, and they are far in the minority of both groups. Is anybody ever born with a genetic disposition for crossdressing? You'd have a hard time selling me on that one. It is psychological abnormality. This song does nothing to promote tolerance of gays, and if anything will put older heterosexual kids on the defensive. It should put homosexual adults on the defensive as well, as it put's iup the message that homosexuals are crossdressers intent on ruling the world and getting revenge on straights.

So tell me Bernard, is that the message you want to send, I don't think so. You're an intelligent well spoken gentleman. I just think your vision gets a little blurry and you get defensive on issues dealing with sexuality.
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:57 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ny1911:

I say let the teachers teach the academics and provide positive values through example. I guess I'm ultimately saying that these value issues should be part of the school environment, but not part of the curriculum. [/b]
I pretty much agree with that. As I said before, issues should be addressed as they arise.
Posted by: Toddler2

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 12:30 PM

I have a gay uncle, and several friends who are openly gay. Interesting to me is that two of the four gay men are shrinks, one is a nurse, and one a businessman. They're all great guys, and the only lesbian couple we socialized with were also very nice, both physicians. That said, the song/skit Larry posted offended me.

I'm not intolerant. I was gung ho to leave Vermont because my daughter never saw a black person until she was over two. Now my kids are in a school where 50% of the children have or are at risk for a developmental delay due to a physical or mental handicap. It's awsome, my kids simply accept as normal that some kids walk, some don't, and that people are different.

BUT! That skit is over the line for little kids. The line about beheading people and becoming a Queen is clearly not needed. It has a sexual meaning and references violence at a time kids get expelled for playing cops and robbers with their fingers! K-6 is not the right time for this. That skit about the little boy who loved his doll was fine. No sexual implications or language.

5 year olds don't need to have normal-variant sexuality thrown in their faces to teach them to tolerate it. All it will do is confuse them.

Also, while I think homosexuality is fine if that's someones orientation, why are they trying to associate it with cross-dressing. When put together, they are showing that little boy trying to attract strait little boys. That may occur in real life before the little guy figures out what he is and wants, but you don't want the gay little kids in the audience to think this is how he has to dress or act. And you don't want the strait kids to think this is what homosexuality is about.

Gay men and boys aren't all sissies. Lesbians aren't all butch. To imply they are is stupid and offends me. It probably has a slew of dead gladiators rolling in their graves too!

Todd
Posted by: Toddler2

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 12:37 PM

PS) NY1911, what are you doing with that little sissy Kel Tec? My next buy will be a 642 with crimson traces and leather from Lou Alessi's or PCS.
Posted by: ny1911

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 01:07 PM

How did you guess it is a Kel-Tec? I like the Springfield Ultra Compact, but they're too heavy and hard to conceal all of the time. Oh well...a .380 in my pocket is better than a .45 at home. ;\)

Sorry for hijacking the thread...
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 01:14 PM

 Quote:
quote:I don't care what anyone does in their own personal adult life.

Yes you do.
I have to apologize to Larry over this remark. It was ill-considered and gratuitous.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 01:17 PM

Phlebas, Luke's Dad and Toddler2, you make some very good points and have supplied food for thought. On re-reading the skit I see what you mean.

I am wondering how many skits are in the collection and how the others compare to this one.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 01:24 PM

Larry, I'd like to see your source that these skits are being "taught" in California schools. From all I can gather it is a collection of skits that is being performed in school assemblies.
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 01:31 PM

Bernard, I see that a good night's rest has restored some clarity for you. Thank you.

My understanding is that most of the material in this production is equally offensive.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 01:33 PM

I am reserving judgement until I can read the whole thing.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 01:42 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
In my neighborhood there's a 10 year old boy with a homosexual uncle. He started sharing 'tricks' with my same age son a while ago that he learned from his uncle....I resent it being introduced into this innocent community of children by some gay uncle who wants his nephew to **** his ****.[/b]
Apple, have you called the police about this? This guy needs to be locked up as a sexual predator and be put on the sexual offenders list in your state, now! A man trying to get little kids to have sex with him can NOT be tolerated!
Posted by: EHpianist

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 02:02 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by apple:
From personal experience...

In my neighborhood there's a 10 year old boy with a homosexual uncle. He started sharing 'tricks' with my same age son a while ago that he learned from his uncle....

games to play,
things to say,
ways to pass a rainy day
things not appropriate to share in this forum.

This kids little brother now is trying to get my daughter and her friend to play "kiss my peepee" and other stuff. [/b]

Interesting because something very simmilar happened with my friend's 6 year old son, except that it was taught to him by a 6 year old girl nieghbor whose single mother is straight but very sexually active. To use this type of semi-pedophiliac example to defame the gay is plain wrong. Children suffer from perverted and uncaring adults regardless of whether they are gay or straight.

I just want to illustrate that it is inappropriate for children to be exposed to sexuality by those who are not their parents. It should not be taught in schools. [/b]

So by this reasoning then children who have parents who are too repressed or too dumb to talk about it with their kids should just deal with the consequences? What will you say to them, "oh sorry hon, you should have been born to more well-educated parents"?

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 02:07 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
In my neighborhood there's a 10 year old boy with a homosexual uncle. He started sharing 'tricks' with my same age son a while ago that he learned from his uncle....I resent it being introduced into this innocent community of children by some gay uncle who wants his nephew to **** his ****.[/b]
Apple, have you called the police about this? This guy needs to be locked up as a sexual predator and be put on the sexual offenders list in your state, now! A man trying to get little kids to have sex with him can NOT be tolerated! [/b]
Gryphon's right. Keep your kids away from these kids and the uncle. You may want to report it as well. Sounds like they are being abused.
Posted by: ny1911

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 02:19 PM

I believe that it has been shown that approximately 3% of the male population is homosexual. That 3% commits 1/3 of the pedophilia. While one can't conclude that a homosexual male is a pedophile, that's where a profiler would look first.

I agree that parents should have the final say in whether sexually related materials are presented to their children. Electives in sexuality are fine with the parents' consent. It's bad enough that kids get misinformation from the media and their peers, why add the school system?

 Quote:
Originally posted by EHpianist:

Interesting because something very simmilar happened with my friend's 6 year old son, except that it was taught to him by a 6 year old girl nieghbor whose single mother is straight but very sexually active. To use this type of semi-pedophiliac example to defame the gay is plain wrong. Children suffer from perverted and uncaring adults regardless of whether they are gay or straight.

I just want to illustrate that it is inappropriate for children to be exposed to sexuality by those who are not their parents. It should not be taught in schools. [/b]

So by this reasoning then children who have parents who are too repressed or too dumb to talk about it with their kids should just deal with the consequences? What will you say to them, "oh sorry hon, you should have been born to more well-educated parents"?

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com [/b]
Posted by: EHpianist

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 02:43 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ny1911:
I believe that it has been shown that approximately 3% of the male population is homosexual. That 3% commits 1/3 of the pedophilia. [/b]

Where does the 1/3 number come from? I am not acquainted with it.

I agree that parents should have the final say in whether sexually related materials are presented to their children. Electives in sexuality are fine with the parents' consent. It's bad enough that kids get misinformation from the media and their peers, why add the school system?[/b]

So then you're saying that a child born to parents who do not discuss sexual issues or are themselves misinformed about them (AIDS, sexually transmitted diseases, pregnancy) has to suffer the consequences because your children are lucky enough to have that education at home? This seems extremely unfair to me.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 02:46 PM

Luke's dad, I think you'll find that what I'm defensive about it being called a "sick bastard", "a sick pervert"; that I "want to screw up as many little kids as I can so more of them will sit around their apartment wondering if they are queer or straight, talking to their birds."

When someone starts denigrating an entire group of people as sick bastards (See post #2), I'm going to use the word bigot and I'm going to defend myself. I should think that would be obvious.
Posted by: Improviso

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:03 PM

Gee Bernard,

Your defensive about labels like "sick bastard" and "a sick pervert" just like "hetero men" are defensive about being labeled "bigots" and "homophobe". We don't fear you. We find your sexual lifestyle sickenly distasteful. It's an opinion, not a fear.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:07 PM

Oh how interesting, here we have "Improviso" who's very first post at Piano World is shot at me.

I hope that some of my longtime acquantances here will come to my aid and help set this person straight.

Isn't it somewhat peculiar for a brand new poster at PW to be posting something like that in here?
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:09 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Improviso:
Gee Bernard,

Your defensive about labels like "sick bastard" and "a sick pervert" just like "hetero men" are defensive about being labeled "bigots" and "homophobe". We don't fear you. We find your sexual lifestyle sickenly distasteful. It's an opinion, not a fear. [/b]
Improviso. Welcome to the Coffee Room! Well stated. You do seem to know what you're talking about. Welcome.

 Quote:
Posted by Bernard: I hope that some of my longtime acquantances here will come to my aid and help set this person straight.

Isn't it somewhat peculiar for a brand new poster at PW to be posting something like that in here?[/b]
Bernard, I don't know. I kind of like him/her. \:D
Posted by: Luke's Dad

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:14 PM

In fairness to Gryph, I don't think that he was addressing the homosexuality community as a whole, but rather those people (straight or gay) that wrote, performed, and promote the song. The song, as it's shown, will be found to be offensive even by reasonable and fair standards, and as I stated earler, actually can cast homosexuals in a negative light.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:18 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
When someone starts denigrating an entire group of people as sick bastards (See post #2), I'm going to use the word bigot and I'm going to defend myself.[/b]
I didn't call you a sick bastard, I said the people who promote this stuff like "Cootie Shots" and "King & King" to little kids are sick bastards. For example, GLSEN and the principal of Freeman Elementary School. And they are.
Posted by: Luke's Dad

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:18 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:

I hope that some of my longtime acquantances here will come to my aid and help set this person straight.
[/b]
A gay friend of mine once told me, "there is no straight, only gaily forward!" \:D

 Quote:

Isn't it somewhat peculiar for a brand new poster at PW to be posting something like that in here? [/b]
I kind of thought so, too.
Posted by: JBryan

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:24 PM

I talk to our bird all the time. He even says little things back. I don't know if they are nice things since I don't speak bluejay but I can hope.
Posted by: EHpianist

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:24 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
Isn't it somewhat peculiar for a brand new poster at PW to be posting something like that in here? [/b]
Pay no attention Bernard, most likely a troll.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:28 PM

ny1911:
 Quote:
I believe that it has been shown that approximately 3% of the male population is homosexual. That 3% commits 1/3 of the pedophilia. While one can't conclude that a homosexual male is a pedophile, that's where a profiler would look first. [/b]
Like Elena, I question that 3% figure.

But that's really not the point. Pedophilia is predatory and abnormal whichever sexual orientation it is emanating from.

To associate homosexuality with pedophilia is dangerous, inaccurate and unfair. Would we be right in concluding that we should blame all heterosexual males for pedophilia aimed at underage females? That's the commonest kind of pedophilia.

Sickness is sickness. Child molesting is child molesting. Fair is fair.

Ariel
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:33 PM

Bernard asked:
 Quote:
Isn't it somewhat peculiar for a brand new poster at PW to be posting something like that in here? [/b]
Very peculiar. But something tells me, odds are it's not a brand new poster. The turns of phrase sound like a familiar voice to me.

"Improviso", bugger off! And how about signing your usual name?

Ariel

For the record:

 Quote:
Gee Bernard,

Your defensive about labels like "sick bastard" and "a sick pervert" just like "hetero men" are defensive about being labeled "bigots" and "homophobe". We don't fear you. We find your sexual lifestyle sickenly distasteful. It's an opinion, not a fear. [/b]
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:35 PM

Another thing that the defenders of Cootie Shots ignore is the fact that the schools are showing this to elementary school students in violation of the opt-out forms that parents had previously signed to excuse their children from exposure to any material dealing with sex, morality, or religion. They also didn't give prior notice to the parents or allow parents to review the material to be presented beforehand, all California state education code requirements.

Other themes in the series have Rapunzel running off with a princess, for example.
Posted by: DT

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:38 PM

 Quote:
"Improviso", bugger off![/b]
Interesting phrase choice. Chosen for the irony, no doubt.
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:43 PM

No doubt.
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:49 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
[QB] Very peculiar. But something tells me, odds are it's not a brand new poster. The turns of phrase sound like a familiar voice to me.


If that's the case, it is pretty sick to sign on just to annoy a regular poster. Pretty cowardly too.
Posted by: Matt G.

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:51 PM

Not mine:
 Quote:
bigot[/b]
1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]

2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:54 PM

I'm a bigot. If Matt's definition #2 is correct, I can live with that.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:56 PM

Maybe Ariel, but most people who would say that are pretty vocal already and wouldn't need to post under another alias. Unless someone was usually mild mannered and polite and didn't want to burn his image. Hey, kinda like Lazy Pianist's reasons for doing the same thing.
:p
Posted by: Matt G.

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:57 PM

You mean just like the benefit of the doubt that was lavished upon Jack Frost when he first appeared?
Posted by: ny1911

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 03:57 PM

Here are a few links:

http://www.theinterim.com/2002/sept/02study.html

http://www.afajournal.org/archives/23060000011.asp

I can't can't vouch for the researchers as I am just pulling a stat to reinforce what I've heard.
I can say that it seems like most reported cases of pedophilia in the news are man-boy. Which is contrary to what you've stated. I don't know who is correct.


 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
ny1911:
 Quote:
I believe that it has been shown that approximately 3% of the male population is homosexual. That 3% commits 1/3 of the pedophilia. While one can't conclude that a homosexual male is a pedophile, that's where a profiler would look first. [/b]
Like Elena, I question that 3% figure.

But that's really not the point. Pedophilia is predatory and abnormal whichever sexual orientation it is emanating from.

To associate homosexuality with pedophilia is dangerous, inaccurate and unfair. Would we be right in concluding that we should blame all heterosexual males for pedophilia aimed at underage females? That's the commonest kind of pedophilia.

Sickness is sickness. Child molesting is child molesting. Fair is fair.

Ariel [/b]
Posted by: ny1911

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 04:02 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by EHpianist:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ny1911:
I believe that it has been shown that approximately 3% of the male population is homosexual. That 3% commits 1/3 of the pedophilia. [/b]

Where does the 1/3 number come from? I am not acquainted with it.

I agree that parents should have the final say in whether sexually related materials are presented to their children. Electives in sexuality are fine with the parents' consent. It's bad enough that kids get misinformation from the media and their peers, why add the school system?[/b]

So then you're saying that a child born to parents who do not discuss sexual issues or are themselves misinformed about them (AIDS, sexually transmitted diseases, pregnancy) has to suffer the consequences because your children are lucky enough to have that education at home? This seems extremely unfair to me.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com [/b]
No. I'm saying that if a student is taking an elective about Modern Literature, I as a parent should not need to be deflecting discussions about sexuality that are opinion, not fact based.
That can be done in the appropriate forum.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 04:05 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
To associate homosexuality with pedophilia is dangerous, inaccurate and unfair. [/b]
Then please explain why NAMBLA is allowed to march in "gay" pride parades in New York, San Francisco and Boston under its own NAMBLA banner. And why NAMBLA is a member of New York's council of Lesbian and Gay Organizations and the International Gay Association.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 04:07 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
I'm a bigot. If Matt's definition #2 is correct, I can live with that. [/b]
An aside. And a friendy aside: personally, I think that when it comes to your beliefs, you Born Again Christians are weenies.

Matt's definiion #2: you guys would hem and haw for years over that one. ('cept maybe Jolly.)
Posted by: Toddler2

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 04:08 PM

NY1911,
 Quote:
How did you guess it is a Kel-Tec?
I'll refrain from making a sissy boy comment because of the thread we're in. I just played the .380 odds. ;\)
Go here, and ask for one for Christmas ($1000!)
http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/product/prod_set.html


More on topic, the 3% figure is silly. Before you can come up with a percentage, you need to define what your requirements are. If it is that the person would puke before having heterosexual sex, maybe it is 3%. If it is that they would prefer homosexual sex, it's closer to 10%. If it is that they have little preference or prefer homosexual, you get over 10%, but most people consider this last group to be bi-sexually oriented.

1/3 of pedophiles are not homosexual. That would be the case even if pedophiles who preferred children of their own sex WERE considered homosexuals. They're not. They're just considered pedophiles. I can tell you that as a jail doc I met many pedophiles, and it was more about age then gender. It is tragic how many fathers sexually abuse their young daughters. Are they pedophiles? I don't know. I do know they should be shot with something bigger than a .380. Maybe 00 buck to the nether regions?

This
 Quote:

Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny reviewed 352 medical charts,representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in only 2 of the 269 cases in which an adult molester could be identified – fewer than 1% (Jenny et al., 1994).
is from this link:
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

It's worth reading if you have 5 minutes.

Bernard,

I'm surprised I was the only one who was offended by the stereotyping in the skit. Bad stereotyping bugs me almost as much as blatent stupidity. Guess that's why I surf the web here more than at most other sites I'm a "member" of. I'm with you regarding whoever chose this thread as post 1 territory. Almost everyone elses first post is over in the piano forum because that's what brought them here.

Todd
Posted by: Improviso

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 04:10 PM

So, I post an opinion which is in opposition to a regular poster and am immediately labeled a "troll".

Who's being intolerate now? (i.e. Bigot" by the definition above)
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 04:14 PM

 Quote:
Posted by Toddler2 Guess that's why I surf the web here more than at most other sites I'm a "member" of. I'm with you regarding whoever chose this thread as post 1 territory. Almost everyone elses first post is over in the piano forum because that's what brought them here.
[/b]
Earth to Oddler2: "We don't copy!"
Posted by: Toddler2

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 04:16 PM

By the way, that quote is mentioned in one of your links.
Todd
Posted by: Toddler2

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 04:19 PM

Hey Tom,
Go check out MikeMalloy.com or the DU. For the opposite side I'm sure you know more links than I do ya #2 bigot.

This place and, surprisingly, GlockTalk.com, are pretty fair and balanced by me.
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 04:22 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Improviso:
So, I post an opinion which is in opposition to a regular poster and am immediately labeled a "troll".

Who's being intolerate now? (i.e. Bigot" by the definition above) [/b]
Naw, just a jerk, and an overly defensive one.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 04:37 PM

I'm not intolerant, I just don't suffer fools gladly. ;\)

Kinda like those limp-wristed girly-men, who only carry .380s. Why don't y'all carry something a grown man would be proud to stand up on his hind legs, and shoot? :p :p

(This coming from a man who often carries a DAO 25ACP, that you'd probably have to hold the muzzle against the mouse's ear, to be effective.)
Posted by: EHpianist

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 04:39 PM

Todd, just wanted to say how much I have enjoyed reading your well-written, thoughtful posts. You have made many good points. Thank you.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
Posted by: Matt G.

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 04:41 PM

Hmmm... guilt by association. I seem to recall a big stink about that in relation to Justice Scalia....
Posted by: ny1911

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 04:42 PM

That's it. I can't take it any more. I'm going out to buy a 0.50 caliber before NY bans them.
\:D

Seriously though...I don't think I'd ever want to be on the business end of a .22LR, never mind the .25ACP or .380ACP.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:

Kinda like those limp-wristed girly-men, who only carry .380s. Why don't y'all carry something a grown man would be proud to stand up on his hind legs, and shoot? :p :p

(This coming from a man who often carries a DAO 25ACP, that you'd probably have to hold the muzzle against the mouse's ear, to be effective.) [/b]
Posted by: bcarey

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 04:50 PM

Improviso,

Why not start all over and tell us what brings you to this forum.

Are you a pianist?

Or an organist?

Are you shopping for a piano?

Are you a piano technician?

Do you have an agenda?

Whatever. Let us know where you stand.

Introduce yourself to us, and tell us why you are here. This, is your chance. Now, is the time.

\:\)
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 05:14 PM

 Quote:
Bernard,

I'm surprised I was the only one who was offended by the stereotyping in the skit. Bad stereotyping bugs me almost as much as blatent stupidity. Guess that's why I surf the web here more than at most other sites I'm a "member" of. I'm with you regarding whoever chose this thread as post 1 territory. Almost everyone elses first post is over in the piano forum because that's what brought them here.
Toddler2, I guess I wasn't so concerned about stereotyping because I understood the work to be a series of skits, this being just one about cross-dressing. From what I can tell, the piece actually covers many sorts of prejudices.

Luke's dad,
I can see how it might appear that I was over-reacting in my first post. In my defense, Larry's use of the word "indoctrination" really set me off because we hear so much about how homosexuals are out to convert others, and how young children can become homosexual by exposure to homosexuals and by learning about homosexuals, which is ridiculous.

Larry, I'm sorry if my use of the word bigot set you off. I truly believe that many of the people against these types of work are bigots, if not yourself.

My point was and still is that the piece attempts to teach diversity and tolerance for differences and I think that is good. I will actually go out and buy the book and report back when I've finished it.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 05:33 PM

As a society we want what's best for our children. I don't know if child ownership entitles one to an opinion that carries more weight than a non-child owner, but it sure feels like it does.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 05:37 PM

apple, Larry touched on this last night and I disagree with him. I feel quite strongly that the best qualification for knowing what's good for children is to have been a child. And we've all been there. Deep inside us is the child which knows. Parents will have strong feelings about what they think is best for their children but this speaks more to their experience as adults than it does to the experience of being a child. That's how I see it, anyway.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 05:47 PM

If you had children Bernard, when would you teach them 'the facts of life' whatever they are?
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 05:59 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
apple, Larry touched on this last night and I disagree with him. I feel quite strongly that the best qualification for knowing what's good for children is to have been a child. And we've all been there. Deep inside us is the child which knows. Parents will have strong feelings about what they think is best for their children but this speaks more to their experience as adults than it does to the experience of being a child. That's how I see it, anyway. [/b]
Bernard,

With all due respect:

That's crap. I don't give two hoots about my own childhood, ( of course I haven't been through 20 years of analysis!) It's over it's dead, it's done. I care about my kids, that's all. I want them to know nothing about crossdressers, and pedophiles, and sex offenders till they can understand such things--and that would be as late in life as possible.

I want them to know about the existance of evil, yes--but it's the nature of that evil that needs pause and an then explaination, by me.

Their my kids, let me teach them the way I want.
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 06:00 PM

 Quote:
Bernard:
I feel quite strongly that the best qualification for knowing what's good for children is to have been a child. [/b]
Bernard, this makes no sense at all, at least the way I'm reading it.

Posted by: CrashTest

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 06:09 PM

Its funny how parents talk about their kids like they are property!

Well, maybe they are, as our society functions in a way that makes it seem so.
Posted by: kenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 06:14 PM

I agree with Bernard and support him.

You want to wait till kids are 18 to teach them about homosexuality so they are not influenced into becoming gay?
Sorry, too late, they are gay already.
You are afraid that if kids are taught that it is to be okay to be gay they will be more likely to become gay. (Not true)

There are lots of men who, because of the stigma of being gay, get married have kids and act "normal", for as long as they can anyway.
Enter the bath houses, and anonymous public restroom sex.
How sad.

Yes, we will see a larger percentage of the population be gay when there is no longer a reason to stay in the closet.
Actually the percentage won’t change, just the percentage of secret keepers.
Does that make me pro-gay or mean I have an agenda?
I hope so, my agenda is equality for all.

Let's teach kids tolerance.
I think the mommy's-dress-and-high-heels-thing is quite a bit over the top, though I understand why they did it.
It was to get attention with something outrageous.
It worked.

BTW, people send their children into Sunday School at an early age.
Get them before they can think.
Why not wait till they are 18 and can chose their own religion?
What’s wrong? Afraid they won’t turn out just like you?
Shouldn’t it be against the law to expose minors to religion?

See, I just pushed your buttons.
Nothing gets otherwise rational people to go psycho as fast as talking about things that affect their kids, excuse me, their lumps of clay.
Politicians use this all the time to manipulate us.

Very few people get that their kids are separate people, not possessions, not their lumps of clay.
People want little carbon copies of themselves, only better.
Nowhere is this more evident in the fear that their kid will be gay.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 06:19 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTest:
Its funny how parents talk about their kids like they are property!

[/b]
I was being funny Crash.

It's funny how you don't own them but boy are they expensive to birth, house, clothe, educate, feed and insure.
Posted by: CrashTest

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 06:34 PM

kenny, I think that you hit it on the head with the sunday school idea. There are many people who are religious, and when you asked them why, don't can't really tell you, it has been embedded in their psyche and it then appears that it is natural to feel that way, so they put up a wall. It is almost like a disease that you get through inheritance, the cycle never stops, and thus people cannot use their own free will when they are ready.
Posted by: bcarey

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 06:35 PM

Amen!

I was about to ask some "what if" questions.

What if your child asks you why two men or women are walking hand in hand down a street, or in an embrase, and they find that strange? How do you explain? Are you prepared to give them an answer? Are you prepared to do it, or would you prefer it be presented in the form of a play at your school. Let's face it, many parents just don't know how, and don't handle these inevitable questions that come from their offspring.

What if, your child at age, let's say 14, tells you that they have come to the conslusion that they are gay or lesbian?

What then?

With these questions, no one should assume that I have an opionion one way or the other about the original post.
Posted by: LadyElton

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 06:48 PM

BEING GAY IS NOT A ****ING CHOICE!!! I'm a dyke and grew up around hetero breeders. Who in the God and Goddess' names recruited me? Elton John? Liberace? Ani Defranco? Gods forbid one of your kids turns out to be gay. Would you feel the same way then? That some faggot or dyke converted him/her? Like we're some cult? Gimme a break. And people wonder why queer kids have the highest rate of suicide.

(And yes, I'm a bit hormonal )
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 06:53 PM

 Quote:
bcarey:
What if your child asks you why two men or women are walking hand in hand down a street, or in an embrase, and they find that strange? How do you explain? Are you prepared to give them an answer?[/b]
Happened to us several times when we lived in San Francisco. Fisherman's Wharf, the Presidio, other tourist trap areas where particularly weird gays would congregate to wave at people and just hang out (so to speak).

For example: One day, we were walking across the Golden Gate Bridge, two "men" saw us coming (me/wife/6 yr. old/2 yr. old). They turned sideways to somewhat block us from walking, then started passionately kissing and stroking each other while we were forced to watch. This display lasted for maybe 10-15 seconds, then they walked by, laughing.

How did I handle it? What did I say to my wife and kids?

Wait. . . First, let me ask people here in addition to bcarey:

How would YOU handle it?

(edit): The reason I remember the above example so well, is that the two guys did not look gay. Either one could have passed for professional football players - they were big! So no, throwing them off the bridge was not an option.
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 07:11 PM

I have a serious and a trivial observation.

Serious, first.

I have concerns about how children are introduced to sex-role identification. Kids are conservative. Life introduces them to enough surprises, and they're expected to swallow them. You never heard the one about the kid who is told "the facts" when he asks where his baby sister came from?

He laughs hysterically, then working down finally to hiccups and wiping his eyes, says, "OK, OK [snort] Now tell me the TRUTH!"*

You think storks are less plausible? Then you DON'T remember being a kid!

Things have to be kept basic before exceptions are introduced. This is a totally different subject from that of their own innate sexual preferences. And is also from different from intolerance and ridicule.

Before early puberty, kids as a rule (unless they've been abused) are pre-sexual, just as they're pre-orgasmic (except in a psychodynamic sense).

Seems to be more the sticks and and snails and puppy dog tails aspect of sex-role sterotyping.

I'd like to see that loosened up a good bit (and it's VERY different from culture to culture - just pick up some old Malinowski or Margaret Mead, flawed as their methodology was). Especially when it comes to educating about opportunity and human potential - like until recently, girls were told to think of nursing school only if they were keen on medicine.

But in early childhood - as in up to Junior High -I think things should be kept as simple as possible. Yes, kids CAN get confused. Life's confusing enough. Why not keep the boy babies dressed in blue and the girl babies in pink? Gay teachers are fine with me - as long as they're good teachers. But no, save the drag queens for later: in the classroom, on TV and in Disney World. And the whole issue of cross dressing (and walking dead dogs, for that matter too - as gryphon pointed out).

And this is not a pro-stereotyping recommendation; it's a recommendation that kids not be exposed to variations on sexuality which I think are NOT the product of individual idiosyncrasy, but of social pathology.

The pathology being a society which is contemptuous of and shame-inducing about difference - and not just sexual ones. That means it's pretty much impossible to see what "normal homosexuality" (think about it!) might look like.

But it doesn't look like Rupaul.

And to present that variation as a healthy option at an early age isn't doing ANYBODY any good, not gays or hets. (Equally important - it doesn't look like nine-year old female tartlets either!)

I'd be glad to take questions afterwards class. Don't mean to sound pompous. This is actually something that's been on my mind for a long time as a thread topic - since the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade was adapted, to be exact. I had an editorial from the NYTimes I was going to run about it here (but it's been archived).

I think gender-identity confusion is a real risk and has nothing to do with sexual preference. And I've been there in spades as a single mother of sons, believe you me.

OK, onto trivial topic...

I'd LOVE to see a third grade boy maneuver in high heels at all, much less ones way too big for him - and much less, get on and off the school bus wearing them! Puleeze.

And that's how real the whole scenario of the skit is, IMHO.

Ariel
Posted by: Luke's Dad

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 07:34 PM

Great post, Ariel
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 07:42 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LadyElton:
BEING GAY IS NOT A ****ING CHOICE!!! I'm a dyke and grew up around hetero breeders. Who in the God and Goddess' names recruited me? Elton John? Liberace? Ani Defranco? Gods forbid one of your kids turns out to be gay. Would you feel the same way then? That some faggot or dyke converted him/her? Like we're some cult? Gimme a break. And people wonder why queer kids have the highest rate of suicide.

(And yes, I'm a bit hormonal ) [/b]
Ah, yes.

Then if apple's son is lured into homosexual activity, it is simply because he was born that way.

I understand your position perfectly, and allow me to say, I disagree.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 07:45 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by kenny:
I agree with Bernard and support him.

You want to wait till kids are 18 to teach them about homosexuality so they are not influenced into becoming gay?
Sorry, too late, they are gay already.
You are afraid that if kids are taught that it is to be okay to be gay they will be more likely to become gay. (Not true)

There are lots of men who, because of the stigma of being gay, get married have kids and act "normal", for as long as they can anyway.
Enter the bath houses, and anonymous public restroom sex.
How sad.

Yes, we will see a larger percentage of the population be gay when there is no longer a reason to stay in the closet.
Actually the percentage won't change, just the percentage of secret keepers.
Does that make me pro-gay or mean I have an agenda?
I hope so, my agenda is equality for all.

Let's teach kids tolerance.
I think the mommy's-dress-and-high-heels-thing is quite a bit over the top, though I understand why they did it.
It was to get attention with something outrageous.
It worked.

BTW, people send their children into Sunday School at an early age.
Get them before they can think.
Why not wait till they are 18 and can chose their own religion?
What's wrong? Afraid they won't turn out just like you?
Shouldn't it be against the law to expose minors to religion?

See, I just pushed your buttons.
Nothing gets otherwise rational people to go psycho as fast as talking about things that affect their kids, excuse me, their lumps of clay.
Politicians use this all the time to manipulate us.

Very few people get that their kids are separate people, not possessions, not their lumps of clay.
People want little carbon copies of themselves, only better.
Nowhere is this more evident in the fear that their kid will be gay. [/b]
Kenny, I've forgotten.

Do you have children?
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 07:57 PM

Children are only young for a short while
They should be taught to be tolerant
They should be taught we are equal

They shouldn't be taught at too young an age
some of the things that burden adults
that they will experience all too soon.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 08:01 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LadyElton:
****ING...I'm a dyke [/b]
Two mutually exclusive things being presented here. \:D
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 08:03 PM

 Quote:
LadyElton:
And people wonder why queer kids have the highest rate of suicide.
[/b]
And that is such a horrible, tragic statistic.

But what to do? Does the gay activist branch represent your views? What benefit does legal protection guarantee -- marriage, or a series of skits in a school -- if the majority starts to hate those protected by law? How does increasing disdain and anger help gay people?

Hets concern: you're recruiting kids - gays say "no."
Hets concern: you're promoting a lifestyle - gays say no.
Hets concern: leave our kids alone - gays say no.
Hets concern: marriage is man and a woman - gays say no!
Hets concern: father/mother for children - gays say "no longer."
Hets concern: discussion - gays say "we'll use/change the law."

Are we on the road to happiness yet?
Posted by: Renauda

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 08:06 PM

I have no problem teaching toleration in schools but I do have a problem with teaching children that anything goes when it comes to sexuality. I didn't didn't learn about sex form my teachers nor did I learn about it from my parents. I learned about it, like most kids my age I bet, in the playground from the older kids. I don't recall it being traumatic either. As for samne sex relationships to tell you the truth it never entered our minds. Sure we knew that there were such people out there, but really when it came down to it no one really cared- we were all friends from the same school.

Its really gone a bit too far this educating and sensitizing little kids so that a few bureaucrats and paid Ed school grads can feel good about their work.
Posted by: LadyElton

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 08:42 PM

There's nothing in that song that is sexual. The boy wearing high-heels..yep, just oozing sex. The words 'homosexual activity' imply that all we are is who we ****. All this ****ing and moaning is basically trying to make us look like sex machines rather than human. No one said that every queer person is good. But don't let the bad ones cause you to think we're all that way. The generalizing and scapegoating has been going on for ages -- against blacks, Jews, Irish, Muslims, etc. Gays are about the only group that you can still get away with demonizing, thanks to a 2,000 year old book. By the way, this lesbian's 'lifestyle' is going to work everyday, make sure I pay my bills on time, do housework. Gods forbid if I should start dating a woman. We'd go and recruit little girls into a life of carpet licking. Oh please.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 08:43 PM

My little six year old says.......

"there are rings around the sun and there is a planet on every ring"

"a bourbon is a car"

"mom - you are very gay for a mom. I'm gay too, just like you"

(no kidding - he has said all those cute things recently)

Just let him be a kid ......
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 08:46 PM

We'd go and recruit little girls into a life of carpet licking. Oh please.[/b]

ummmm. TomK, maybe you could explain what that means. . .
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 08:48 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
If you had children Bernard, when would you teach them 'the facts of life' whatever they are? [/b]
Thank you for asking, apple. I think "the facts of life" are learned over a period of time. I would probably answer my children's questions as they occurred. I would do nothing to shelter my children from seeing animals, for instance, and I would answer their questions in age-appropriate words. If they came home from school and said they had witnessed something in assembly, I would answer their questions honestly. I would be greatful for the opportunity. I'm sure I would read 2 or 3 books on the subject of childhood sexuality and teaching sex to children before hand.
Posted by: Matt G.

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 09:01 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
....
Then if apple's son is lured into homosexual activity, it is simply because he was born that way...[/b]
Define "lured".
Posted by: Toddler2

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 09:18 PM

Elena,
Thanks, although I nearly hijacked a good thread responding to NY1911. Your point on all kids getting a shot at an education re sex and sexuality was superb. Care to move here to NC and vote with me. We've just gone back to abstinence as the public school curriculum :rolleyes:

Kenny,
The religious school point is excellent and I hadn't thought of it. However, I think it is not the parents intent. They are just doing what organized religion probably realized it had to do, and implimented, eons ago. It's cultural. My kids won't go to religious school until they're old enough to ask good questions and be skeptical.

Bernard,
If the skit had only been on cross dressing, it wouldn't have bothered me.

If it had only been on homosexuality, it would depend on how it was done and what age the boy was. K-6 is a big spread. I think showing a pre-pubescent child to pre-pubescent children, in a sexual way, and associating a value to that sexuality, could be very confusing and judgemental. I know kids relate to kids, but I think the character would be better portrayed as an adult, and care would have to be taken not to imply a value or judgement on the character.

On the flip side, I'm hoping that when my kids have to take "history" in 7th grade or so, the teacher is a flamboyent cross dresser. Maybe that way they'll stay awake through it. I didn't, because I didn't realize how important the subject was until I was past college. (little slow sumtimes ;\) )

Oh yeah, much as I hate to do it, I have to agree with TomK. I learned about how young children interact, think, and interpret their world, by being a parent. My sister teaches little children, and is sometimes more up on what is normal for them in some developmental areas, but even she doesn't understand a lot of it. You have to experience the questions and reactions. Kids teach parents. It's something I hope you get to experience either directly if that's your wish, or vicariously through a friend/relative and their kids.

Every few nights I read my 4yr old daughter a ballet book with pictures by Edgar Dega. Once she asked about him and I mentioned he died. Now EVERY time she asks for that story, she specifies "and after you read it, you can talk to me about his paint and how he died." For me, discussing death with a 4yr old is harder than discussing sexuality with her, but clearly that isn't the case for everyone. TomK can probably just tell his kids that Dega is in heaven, or not. I can't.

Ariel,
I'm not sure which side of the debate you supported, but kids are not pre-orgasmic. What they experience when they stimulate their own gentials to the point where they seem to have an orgasm is moot. Still, many children have been observed doing this.

I'd be very hesitant to discuss when gender identity and sexual preference formation occurs. My wife is studying child and adolescent phycology. One of those two shrinks I mentioned is a child psychiatrist. I could ask them but I doubt they'd commit to a time. I don't believe it waits for puberty, but life sure would be simpler if it did.

Todd

I just previewed that post.
Sorry sorry sorry for the length. I'm rambling at bed time!

Todd
Posted by: Toddler2

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 09:24 PM

Hey Bernard,
Saw your last post when I posted. Great answer. But it's hard to know what is age appropriate and you will not have time to read those two books once you have the kids. Read them now if it's in your future ;\)
Todd
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 09:33 PM

Where to even begin. I have the book in front of me. Stopped at the bookstore on the way to the recital, had a chance to peruse it on the train.

It's an eye opener! Just look at this filth (I hope there are no children here), it's from the piece "Just Because You're You" and it's in the same chapter as as "In Mommies High Heels". I mean the whole chapter is disgusting from beginning to end. It's just like Larry said, "My understanding is that most of the material in this production is equally offensive."

Excerpt:

SON: Tommy said maricones go to hell!
DAD: That was very mean, and he was very wrong!
SON: But-
DAD: Who made you?
SON: God.
DAD: Now why would God create something bad?
SON: He made a mistake?
DAD: God doesn't make mistakes. But people do--like calling each other bad names and not believing that God loves them.
SON: Does God love us all the same?
DAD: Of course! As much as your mom and I love you, that's how much God loves each and every one of his children! God doesn't care whether you can score a touchdown or not, or what grades you get, or how popular you are. God loves you just because you are you!
SON: Wow!
DAD: And do you know why I love you?
SON: Because I'm me?
DAD: (bear hug) You got it, m'hijo.

--by Father Cris Rosales, SDB

So I ask you, when is it going to stop!? Now they are recruiting reverends to write their filth for them. To think this is being presented in public schools makes me sick.

The chapter is called "Be Proud Of Your Difference!". There's a lovely poem called "Chocolate Face" which is really sweet. There's a play about a grandmother who rides a bike called "At Your Age?"

The long and the short of it is "Cootie Shots" has a few items that might be considered 'pushing the envelope' or 'over the top', but out of 50 pieces in the book, they wouldn't amount to more than you can count on one hand. "In Mommies High Heels" is the most unsettling I've yet come across in the book.

I would also like to add that "In Mommies High Heels" begins with 8 stanzas that do not appear in Larry's original post. It begins,

Yesterday at show-and-tell
The other kids began to yell!
What could have caused this wild and crazy scene?

So the overall effect of the piece is slightly altered when read from beginning to end, in that it acknowledges that something unusual is taking place. Also, since someone mentioned it above, some of the other kids show and tell model cars, appendix scars, a pet hyena, etc. Not all the other children's show and tell objects are presented negative ly.

THERE IS HARDLY AN AGENDA IN THIS BOOK EXCEPT THE TEACHING OF TOLERANCE.

The introduction makes the good point that 1st graders are now using the word "faggot" to ridicule others. Is it a bad thing then, to start teaching them love and understanding?

As the inside front cover states: "Cootie Shots is about people not being afraid of what they don't understand." --Chris Watkins (looks to be about 8 or 9 years old)

This book has had words like "perverted", "indoctrination", "sick", and a horde of others thown at it in this thread. Just goes to show why knowing the facts and confronting ignorance (I'm not calling anyone here ignorant) are so important.

"Cootie Shots is a truly life-affirming collection." --Olympia Dukakis

"This book gives children some beautiful lessons about our diversity and sameness before our society teaches them otherwise." --Rev. Robert B. Allman, H.R. Presbyterian Minister, Savannah Georgia Presbytery

"A fun, thought-provoking and creative forum for children to recognize what they can do to treat others--and be treated--in a more equitable manner." --Julie Flapan, Project Director, A World of Difference Institute, Los Angeles Project, Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith

And lastly, just as a footnote, the lawsuit brought in California against the presentation of "Cootie shots" was dropped. Trying to find out more.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 09:50 PM

I wonder if the fact that I have six younger brothers makes me feel a little more qualified to know children than just my own experience of being a child? Maybe. Maybe not.
Posted by: LadyElton

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 09:53 PM

I think some people forget we were once children. We didn't pop out of the womb full grown homo's. :p
Posted by: Toddler2

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 10:00 PM

I'm sure it does. Given you've got to be at least a few years older than the youngest. Can I ask it you want to, or plan to, raise a child? (Please ignore the question if it's over the limit or you think it'll incite a flame war!)

Thanks for checking out the book. I'm still miffed they felt the need to intertwine cross dressing with homosexuality, but nice to know they tempered it some.

Gotta love Olympia Dukakis.

Todd
Posted by: katie_dup1

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 10:38 PM

I spent the last 90 minutes googling "Cootie Shots". I'd also like to take a look at the book .... maybe it's in our public library. From what I've read so far, this all has to do with tolerance, diversity and the anti-bullying message. I wouldn't object to one of my children seeing the presentation in school (If it were fairly short).

Coincidentally, the "opt-out" form for the "Human Sexuality & Life Skills" curriculum arrived home in a backpack today. Thanks to this thread, I made a point of examining the school district's web-site, as well as all the curriculum, related policies & materials. I doubt if I would have done this if I didn't read this thread.

Apple, I sure hope you report your neighbor to the police & the appropriate child welfare people in your area. This fellow should be investigated & the kids may require help.
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 10:41 PM

Todd,

I don't think this discussion should be a polarized debate, which is probably why my "side" may not have been apparent.

My point of view, is that sex-role identification (What are boys, What are girls? Who are the men, who are the women? - and where do "I", the child, fit in?) is fragile and that children are easily confused. It has a lot to do with role models, observations of family relationships, and exposure to example from real and dramatized life.

I think it's very important to keep things simple for young kids, in presenting male and female identity. Which is which. Especially in our society with so many definitions in flux (plus confusing examples, and altered family structures).

So, I'm NOT in favor of introducing variations on sex role identification until roughly puberty. Certainly not variations which are arguably pathological. By extension, I don't think that skit as presented, is a good idea.

But I draw a distinction between sex-role identification and actual erotic preference. Sexual attraction is, I think much less malleable and in most cases, probably not malleable at all. By that I mean, who is gay and who is straight.

Sex-role identity is greatly dependent on custom - NOT "sex". And a lot of what people are up in arms about in the gay/staight controversy are, I believe, issues of custom (and the outward trappings of sexuality) rather than the deep issue of attraction.

But I think customs are very important. I believe young kids should - as far as possible - be exposed to simple models of customary sexual appearance and family roles. This I see as necessary for their own mental health as they develop (both gay and straight children) and for a cohesive, functioning society.

And as an aside - I believe that a lot of what is potentially detrimental to children and society is not actually exposure to atypical erotic preferences (abnormal and "sick", by some lights). I think the harm done is from rapid breakdown in customary ways of doing things, in our society and in our times.

This hodgepodge in social norms I think is more threatening to social cohesion than the acceptance and integration of a homosexual community, with full civil rights. In fact, I don't see such integration as threatening at all. On the contrary, I think continued exclusion and condemnation is harmful to everyone. And wrong.

As far as when children become aware of their erotic preferences. I'd say it's variable - corresponding basically to when hormones kick in. Genetic even chromosomal differences exist before this, of course. But I don't think gay youth are in touch with their erotic preferences any earlier than heterosexual youth, before the full force of this attraction begins to dictate much of their mental and emotional focus.

They may look back and say "I always felt different", but that's not the same thing (and it's also very subject to distortion according to other motives.)

Yes, I know even babies masturbate. A few may even reach a release like a mature orgasm, and boys can have a "dry ejaculation". But I don't think this is typical.

However, this is not my field of expertise, and although I have a good bit of training in clinical psychology, kids were never my speciality. Therefore, most of my comments about this age cut-off are based on observation and opinion...which is why I said "early puberty". And yes, except for a pan-erotic definition of sexuality like Freud's, I would stick with this time-line.

When children are abused (I know more about girls in this regard) things DO change dramatically though - and even their hormonal production and secondary sexual characteristics are stimulated much sooner.

Don't know if this is an improvement, in clarity, Todd. I had wanted to keep a complex subject as simple as I could. That is, my distinction between custom and biology in sexual identity, and how this influences my preferences about social policy.

Loud and clear, however, at the risk of redundancy, I favor full social integration and equality of homosexuals (and other variations on typical sexuality). And I don't regard erotic preference as a choice.

Ariel
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:05 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Matt G.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
....
Then if apple's son is lured into homosexual activity, it is simply because he was born that way...[/b]
Define "lured". [/b]
Happy to do so.

When a homosexual paints their lifestyle as "normal", or even better than the heterosexual norm, and induces a child to immerse himself within that lifestyle.

Children are not fair game for alternative lifestyles.

------------------

Those who cannot understand grafitti, cannot understand culture.
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:19 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
When a homosexual paints their lifestyle as "normal", or even better than the heterosexual norm, and induces a child to immerse himself within that lifestyle.

Children are not fair game for alternative lifestyles.
[/b]
How do people become gay since they were raised in a "non-alternative" lifestyle?
Maybe roll modeling just doesn't apply to the straight/gay thing.
A gay kid raised in an environment of intolerance WILL be more likely to grow up straight acting and appearing, but that ain't that same thing as straight, Jolly.

I do not have children.
Does that disqualify me from having an opinion here?


Oh, and gay IS normal for gay people.
Just like straight is persumably "normal" for you.
Then again they say the biggest homophobes are the most insecure hets, terrified of their shadow (in the Jungian sense).

BTW Jolly, do you think evil and satan are in all of us or they are external?
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:30 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:

Then if apple's son is lured into homosexual activity, it is simply because he was born that way.

I understand your position perfectly, and allow me to say, I disagree. [/b]
If Apple's son turns out to be a homosexual, you can bet your tootin' it wasn't because he was lured (unless there was something I missed in this thread). She as likely as you, me, Kenny or Hillary to have a homosexual offspring.

Edit: ... or John Ashcroft. \:o
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:35 PM

Is gayness inherited?
Do you think it is a recessive or a dominant trait?

Of course real data will never exist until it is safe for gays to stand up and be counted.
Not in our lifetime judging by the crap in this coffee room.

One thing that makes me barf is how quickly people say, “ Why, I have two friends, or cousins, who are gay. . .”
After demonstrating membership in some cool club, they pen their poison.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:41 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SameKenny:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
When a homosexual paints their lifestyle as "normal", or even better than the heterosexual norm, and induces a child to immerse himself within that lifestyle.

Children are not fair game for alternative lifestyles.
[/b]
How do people become gay since they were raised in a "non-alternative" lifestyle?
Maybe roll modeling just doesn't apply to the straight/gay thing.
A gay kid raised in an environment of intolerance WILL be more likely to grow up straight acting and appearing, but that ain't that same thing as straight, Jolly.

I do not have children.
Does that disqualify me from having an opinion here?


Oh, and gay IS normal for gay people.
Just like straight is persumably "normal" for you.
Then again they say the biggest homophobes are the most insecure hets, terrified of their shadow (in the Jungian sense).

BTW Jolly, do you think evil and satan are in all of us or they are external? [/b]
No children? Then you do not understand, not completely.

When you have children, you try to make their world a little better. You try to insulate them from worldliness, and you try to instill within them the values you think they should have to make their way through life.

You have that responsibility, and no amount of fancy word-play, or logical deductive arguments can convince me to waver from that basic truth.

As to whether we all have Evil inside, I am afraid that is our nature, and a burden we must bear. Chalk me up on the side of Original Sin.
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:46 PM

What if they are gay?
What if I am gay?

A better world for our kids? yes we agree.

Jolly, since I don't have kids would you like me to delete my posts here?
Verily verily I say unto you, those who "don't understand, not completely" should not be welcome in a forum, perhaps on this earth. Right?

Wouldn't it be comfy if everyone was like you?
May you be blessed with gay children that you may grow.

Enuf pontification for one night.
I'm sleepy.
Hugs,
Opps, sholder slap, "How 'bout them Cubbies?"
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:52 PM

Sorry old son, my children are a far cry from gay, so you'll have to just chew your lip on that one.

As to deleting your posts, no, I did not say that, you did. I stand behind what I did say, however. If someone does not have children, they do not completely understand the responsibility, and the viewpoint that comes with it.

Lastly, I did not say everyone had to be like me, and I don't think I ever have. I will say what I believe to be right, and what I believe to be wrong.

I do not suffer from the disease of situational ethics, nor moral relativism.
Posted by: John Andrew

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:53 PM

Welll..

I had not checked in on this thread until now.

Wow!

I am somewhat chagrined at the tack the discussion has taken. Jolly's little ditty is really about transvestites, not homosexuals. And most transvestites are straight.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/19/04 11:55 PM

Go back and re-read, J.A.

You are confused some more.
Posted by: John Andrew

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 12:03 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
From personal experience...

In my neighborhood there's a 10 year old boy with a homosexual uncle. He started sharing 'tricks' with my same age son a while ago that he learned from his uncle....

games to play,
things to say,
ways to pass a rainy day
things not appropriate to share in this forum.

This kids little brother now is trying to get my daughter and her friend to play "kiss my peepee" and other stuff. I talk with these kids. They love their uncle. They have no idea this type of behavior is innappropriate.

I know children will be children and play whatever silly sex games they will.

I resent it being introduced into this innocent community of children by some gay uncle who wants his nephew to **** his ****.

I don't mean to focus or accuse a member of the gay community, altho I'd like to see this guy stay out of our neighborhood. (and incidentally I've talked with him). I just want to illustrate that it is inappropriate for children to be exposed to sexuality by those who are not their parents. It should not be taught in schools.

For many of us, sexuality is not something to be taken so lightly. [/b]
Apple

I know I am late in my comments, but I echo others who recommend you report this uncle.

You and I are both parents. We both know what is "normal" sexual curiosity and sexual play in little children ("I'll show you mine if you show me yours") and w eknow how to handle it without making it more than it really is. But what you are describing is not normal play.

Nor is having a 10 year old that sexualized normal.

One of the first signs of sexually abused child is a child having/playing at sexual activities beyond his years. No, you cannot be sure this 10 year old is abused. But there is definitely a red flag there.

The fact the uncle is gay has nothing to do with it, in my opinion. My guess is the uncle being gay does not really bother you either. The fact the uncle may be a pedophile has a lot to do with it and isn't this what really bothers you? As a parent, if there were a pedophile in my neighborhood -- gay, straight or whatever -- I would take action to protect my children.

A child in your neighborhood needs to be protected. And it sounds like his younger brother needs to be too. And perhaps other children in the neighborhood.

Are you up to doing something about it? I think if it were me, I would make an appointment with the principal at the kids' school and just tell him what my suspicions are. Then let them check into it and handle it. They know how to handle these things -- unfortunately, they have had to learn.
Posted by: John Andrew

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 12:12 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:

Then if apple's son is lured into homosexual activity, it is simply because he was born that way. [/b]
While one may be lured into a homosexual action, one cannot be lured into being homosexual.

I am certainly not advocating anyone's child be lured into any sexual activity -- homosexual or straight. But two little boys or two little girls doing something out of curiousity or because it feels good does not mean they are gay or lesbians.

Homosexuality is not defined by physical/sexual activity. It is defined by the gender one needs in order to find love, satisfaction and fulfillment in one's life partner. The sexual activity is nothing more than an expression of this, just as it is for heterosexuals.
Posted by: John Andrew

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 12:14 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Go back and re-read, J.A.

You are confused some more. [/b]
Well, I did as you suggested, Jolly. I re-read it. I cannot find one line that indicates the child in the skit is gay. What I find, though, is an entire song about a male enjoying wearing female clothing. In short, a transvestite -- most of whom are heterosexual.
Posted by: John Andrew

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 12:25 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rvaga:
Happened to us several times when we lived in San Francisco. Fisherman's Wharf, the Presidio, other tourist trap areas where particularly weird gays would congregate to wave at people and just hang out (so to speak).

For example: One day, we were walking across the Golden Gate Bridge, two "men" saw us coming (me/wife/6 yr. old/2 yr. old). They turned sideways to somewhat block us from walking, then started passionately kissing and stroking each other while we were forced to watch. This display lasted for maybe 10-15 seconds, then they walked by, laughing.

How did I handle it? What did I say to my wife and kids?

Wait. . . First, let me ask people here in addition to bcarey:

How would YOU handle it?

[/b]
If I had to handle it at all, I would have made some comment that such intense physical interaction should be done in private and then dropped it.

To me, what these men did was inappropriate -- and it would have been just as inappropriate if a man and woman had done it. To me, the problem was not two men, the problem was doing something in front of others that is meant to be done in a more private situation.
Posted by: JBryan

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 12:55 AM

Sounds sensible enough to me.
Posted by: lucy in the sky_dup1

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 01:30 AM

Larry--

A most gentle query: Why do you feel that the intent of these lyrics are to "indoctrinate" children to become homosexual? Could this not just be humor? When Allegra was younger, she loved walking around in my high heels and wearing her daddy's undershirt as a "gown." While you've mostly likely never tried it, provided that one has feet that can take it, walking in high heels can be fun. Occasionally, I slip on a pair of stilettos, and I love being eye-to-eye with the guys during intermission at the opera! It gives me an entirely new perspective on things. Could not a little boy like to "stand up" to his parents?
Posted by: PhJ.

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 04:39 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by lucy in the sky:
Larry--

A most gentle query: Why do you feel that the intent of these lyrics are to "indoctrinate" children to become homosexual? Could this not just be humor? [/b]
I'm not Larry, but...

So let them say I?m like a girl!
What?s wrong with being like a girl?!
And let them jump and jeer and whirl?
They are the swine, I am the pearl!
And let them laugh and let them scream!
They?ll be beheaded when I?m queen!
When I rule the world! When I rule the world!
When I rule the world, in my mommy?s high heels!


...I'm not too sure about the humor thing.

While I don't think you can 'indoctrinate' someone into being gay (a gay friend told me that in kindergarten he fell in love with other boys, not girls, like I did), I wouldn't want my 5y old exposed to things like

"And let them jump and jeer and whirl?
They are the swine, I am the pearl![/b]
And let them laugh and let them scream!
They?ll be beheaded when I?m queen![/b] "
presented as humor in high heels.

I really fail to see how this is teaching respect.
Posted by: johnmoonlight

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:20 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
Originally posted by LadyElton:
****ING...I'm a dyke [/b]
Two mutually exclusive things being presented here. \:D [/b]
\:D \:D

I'll have to read through this entire thread when I get the chance!
Posted by: Toddler2

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 09:13 AM

 Quote:
One thing that makes me barf is how quickly people say, “ Why, I have two friends, or cousins, who are gay. . .”
Kenny,

I wasn't trying to be a name dropper if that was directed at me. Just trying to demonstrate why the stereotypes bothered me personally.

Ariel,

You did clarify things a lot. I wonder if you placing a higher value on traditional roles than I do is due to your being a single mother of boys (that was you, right?) Maybe I'm less traditional because being only 1/2 the parental team is so much easier than being all of it. Hat's off to you.

Lastly,

Someone educate me. Isn't a "queen" a homosexual transvestite reference? Or is it just a transvestite reference?

Todd
Posted by: Matt G.

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 10:06 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Matt G.:
Define "lured". [/b]
Happy to do so.

When a homosexual paints their lifestyle as "normal", or even better than the heterosexual norm, and induces a child to immerse himself within that lifestyle.[/b]
"Lured" involves some sort of reward, which has not been demonstrated. And to even consider that anyone, no matter how militant, considers homosexuality better than heterosexuality, belies your complete ignorance of the subject. You really don't know[/b] any homosexuals, do you? Are you really of the opinion that there is some cadre of homosexuals out there subverting the minds of children to induct them into the (as you blithely spit out) "lifestyle" of homosexuality? Sorry, it doesn't exist. It doesn't need[/b] to exist.

Let's get one thing completely clear here. There is absolutely no excuse for any adult, gay or straight, to prey upon children for sexual activity. Period. Children do not have the mental or emotional capacity to understand the implications of sexual activity.

That said, though, there is[/b] an age at which children do become aware of sexual matters in a mostly adult sense. And at this age, kids start to become more clearly aware of whether they are attracted to the same or the opposite sex (or both). This is all spontaneously generated, needing no induction, coercion, argument or rationale from anyone else. It really just is what it is, and isn't influenced by any cultural or social factors.

What happens next, however, is a matter of pure socialization. A child that feels homosexual tendencies at that age who lives within a society that is highly intolerant of homosexual behavior will most likely hide any outward manifestation of his or her sexual attraction. Some may become so concerned that others will find out that they become über-macho or über-feminine, sometimes even more so than their otherwise straight counterparts. For others, the choice is to display an outward indifference to sexual matters so as not to raise any suspicions. And for yet another portion, the internalized loathing of their own homosexual attraction puts them into attack mode against other homosexuals, as if by externalizing the attraction and destroying it they can sublimate their own desires.

Any of these types can and do take opposite-sex spouses, have children and raise families, as they have since the dawn of time. Nobody "knows" they're homosexual except for the anonymous partners that such people pick up for sexual encounters. These people are the stock and trade of many a gay bar (hence the term "trade"), and form nearly the entire clientele base for gay and transvestite protitutes.

But, woe betide the child who for reasons of personal integrity refuses to hide behind a mask of heterosexual "normalness" in such a society. He or she will likely be ostracized by family, church and friends. And, usually, the younger the child, the more vehement the denouncement. What happens to these kids? They run away from home in an attempt to escape the torment, often only to find a netherworld of drugs and sex that will chew them up and spit them out. Or, some choose a take a more radical approach and kill themselves in a last-ditch effort to gain some peace.

Obviously, none of the scenarios presented above are "beneficial to society" for any number of reasons: loveless, trustless marriages, deception, violence, death, etc. But this is how things will remain until such time as society as a whole, and, perhaps even more importantly, we as individuals can learn to accept homosexuality as just another part of the human condition and not something revolting.
Posted by: EHpianist

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 10:16 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rvaga:
What benefit does legal protection guarantee...if the majority starts to hate those protected by law? ...
Hets concern: [/b]
Rvaga, speak for yourself and not the rest of us "Hets".

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 10:18 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTest:
Its funny how parents talk about their kids like they are property![/b]
They are our responsibility. There's a difference.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 10:28 AM

Posted by: Matt G.

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 11:22 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
However, as is exemplified within this thread, the gay community is crying out for an affirmation of normalcy, and I am not going to acquiesce to that demand.[/b]
Then you and people of the same mindset will bear the blame for the societal ills caused by the continued antipathy towards homosexuality. That, unlike homosexuality, IS a choice. Repressing homosexulity won't make it go away, nor will your religious beliefs (or anyone else's), parental love or rebuke, role models, social pressure, etc., you name it. You can live in your fantasy land where homosexuality is some induced behavior that can be controlled by early conditioning. But, guess what, it doesn't work. Children will be homosexuals regardless. There are millions that are living proof.

And, speaking of presumptuousness, this comment of yours is completely off the scale on the presume-o-meter:
 Quote:
Sorry old son, my children are a far cry from gay,
Oh really? Have you had someone watch every single move they make, have you had their thoughts monitored, and had all of this reported back to you? Read my previous comments about outward appearances. You're living in a fantasy of denial if you think your kids couldn't even possibly be homosexual. The truth is, you do not, in fact, know. Lots of gay folks I know were brought up in good, God-fearing Baptist households, with "normal" mothers and fathers, and with a well-developed sense of values that they still hold to. But they're still gay.

The story of your gay subordinate is feckless, abd using it as some sort of proof of your "compassion" is disingenuous. And your condescension regarding my or anyone else's sexual activities is noted. Frankly, I wasn't aware that anyone needed or wanted your permission to engage in any activities whatsoever. Sheesh.
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 11:26 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by lucy in the sky:
Larry--

A most gentle query: Why do you feel that the intent of these lyrics are to "indoctrinate" children to become homosexual? Could this not just be humor? When Allegra was younger, she loved walking around in my high heels and wearing her daddy's undershirt as a "gown." While you've mostly likely never tried it, provided that one has feet that can take it, walking in high heels can be fun. Occasionally, I slip on a pair of stilettos, and I love being eye-to-eye with the guys during intermission at the opera! It gives me an entirely new perspective on things. Could not a little boy like to "stand up" to his parents? [/b]
I think you are misunderstanding me. I am amazed at what has happened in this thread - it doesn't matter what your opinion is of homosexuality, there is no excuse for *any* kind of "tolerance training" that has sexual overtones, even in the slightest, from *any* direction - to K-6 kids. No, I did not say that exposing small children to this will "make them homosexuals". I said it will make them act out things that may go too far, and that it can result in behavior that can scar them for life. Kids this age are highly susceptible to suggestion as well, and they don't need to have the gravity of such issues places on things they aren't even ready to deal with yet. Some of you want to believe there is no agenda - if that is the case, then at the very least, there is a lot of stark and utter stupidity regarding children involved by those who are promoting this crap. Personally, I think if you put aside your *own* (a "group" you) prejudices and agendas and simply look at the lyrics you will see a clear agenda to indoctrinate, but I'll leave that alone for now and address what I'm addressing.

Yes Lucy, I know that kids will play in their parent's shoes and clothes. I have raised 9 children - I think I know at this point what is involved in raising children. My boys have, as small kids, put on their mother's high heels and walked around in them in the house. Things like that are natural - they aren't doing it as a sexual experiment, nor are they doing it with any weighty thinking on their part about sexual preferences, or the need to be tolerant. They are doing it because it is something to do that seems fun at the time. Mommy wears shoes that make her taller, I'm a little kid, I love Mommy, I think it would be fun to put them on and walk around in the house. I've had daughters put on *my* shoes and drag them around on their feet. I've had my sons put on my shoes, and I've had daughers put on their mother's shoes. Sexuality, heavy social thought is not involved. They aren't trying to shape their future sexual identities by doing it, they are simply playing.

But - sit a 7 year old down and tell him that some of the other boys in school may want to dress up like his mother, and may grow up to want to be the "mommy" in a "mommy and daddy" set, and you've given him too much information. Now you've burdened him with things he isn't even ready to have to deal with yet, and the result can be scary and confusing for many of them.

All of the concern by those who think this is just fine seems to be aimed only at those who might grow up to be homosexual. What about the 98% of them that *won't* grow up to be homosexual? What about the little kid who goes home, who is destined to be straight, who is now burdened with two thoughts - one, I just learned more about sex than I'm ready to process, and two: oh no..... I was playing around with Mommy's shoes and makeup just last week.... am I going to be attracted to boys? Is there something wrong with me? Now, in your attempt at help one you've harmed another.

Kids will, by nature, experiment, act out things, act *on* things, as they develop. Much of their role playing is innocent fun, and it should be left that way. Many issues should be left alone, and dealt with individually, as the issue arises. Someone said "what about the parents who aren't capable of teaching this stuff to their children?" This is just one more example of how far off course we are as a society, how adrift we have become as a result of decades of this kind of social engineering. Many have lost sight of the fact that part of being a parent is *learning* how to handle these things. One of the biggest reasons so many parents *aren't* capable of handling things like this is because society tries to do so much for them already. Parents should be left alone to teach things like this to their own children. You are robbing them of some tremendous learning experiences, some extremely valuable human experiences with their children when you try to do their job for them. Sure, some will stumble. Some won't learn at all. Life isn't perfect.

But the fact remains, a school's job is to teach your child how to read, write, and do math. Later on you add things like history, geography, literature. It is *not* the job of the school, or society at large, to teach children about anything else. That is the parent's job, and for better or worse, those issues should be left up to parents to teach. At some point, once the child has reached an age where these things are actually now an issue with them, *then* you can talk to them about tolerance for the differences that have manifested themselves among them.

Try this one: a group comes to your kid's school, goes into the kindergarten classroom, and does a play on schizophrenics. The objective is to teach your child that there are some people out there who, through no fault of their own, are crazy. Some of these crazy people can be dangerous, but they don't mean to be, and they should be treated with respect, and not be made fun of. No, I'm not drawing any parallels. No, I'm not calling homosexuals crazy, or dangerous. What I *am* doing is showing you yet another issue that isn't even an issue to these kids yet, that they have no questions about, and that has no agenda attached to it, but that you have now introduced more questions than answers to the group, and scared a lot of kids for no reason.

If you want to teach tolerance, direct your educational efforts properly. Teach parents how to parent. Don't teach them *what* to instill in their children - that's *their* decision. Just teach them how. Teach them not to be bigots, or homophobes, or fanatics. Teach them how to talk to their children, teach them the importance of being involved in their children's lives, and how to be involved in their children's lives.

But get your social engineering out of the classroom. Get your agenda driven programs out of the classrooms of children too young to process it all. I'm sorry, but to teach a 6 year old about "queens" being superior to regular boys, and use dead animals and things like that the way they are used in this song, is sick. It is agenda driven, and it is misguided. The sugar coating being applied to this kind of activity, the rationalization of this kind of "education", is hollow. I will say it again, as the parent of 9 children - leave our children alone. Let the parents handle these issues with their own children, as the situation arises, at the proper point in time in each child's life. A bunny rabbit with a stick of dynamite up its ass is still a cute, furry little ball of sweetness if you don't recognize the dangers.
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 11:31 AM

Good post, Matt.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 11:32 AM

thanks for your time Larry.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 12:02 PM

 Quote:
Posted by Larry: there is no excuse for *any* kind of "tolerance training" that has sexual overtones, even in the slightest, from *any* direction - to K-6 kids. [/b]
That just about sums it up. Good post Larry.
Posted by: Luke's Dad

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 12:08 PM

Ve Vill not tolerate your intolerance. You must be educated. To do this, you vill go to our reeducation camps.........
Posted by: John Andrew

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 12:13 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Luke's Dad:
Ve Vill not tolerate your intolerance. You must be educated. To do this, you vill go to our reeducation camps......... [/b]
Who knows? Maybe the intolerant on here will enjoy the bath houses (oops! I mean reeducation camps!)

Considering the nature of the threads on here the past few weeks, they really do seem to be obsessed with homosexual behavior. One wonders where this obsession comes from and how much time they spend fantasizing (I mean, thinking) about it.

\:D
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 12:25 PM

Your problem JA, is you don't seem to understand just who it is that is intolerant.

Your post was, as I expect from you, stupid, condescending, off the mark, and insulting.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 01:40 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
To associate homosexuality with pedophilia is dangerous, inaccurate and unfair. [/b]
Then please explain why NAMBLA is allowed to march in "gay" pride parades in New York, San Francisco and Boston under its own NAMBLA banner. And why NAMBLA is a member of New York's council of Lesbian and Gay Organizations and the International Gay Association. [/b]
And in anticipation of your reply, Ariel:

A few years ago the The International Lesbian & Gay Association (ILGA) circulated an anti-pedophilia pledge and demanded that all member organizations sign it, but then withdrew the requirement after over half refused to do so.

In all fairness the ILGA did eventually rescind NAMBLA's member status because they interfered with ILGA's political goals, one of which is U.N. approval. But ILGA's history shows why this was a political move, because prior to that the ILGA urged member organizations to lobby their governments to abolish the age of consent laws.
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 01:49 PM

Letter to the Editor from mother of gay son

jf
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 01:53 PM

Is there any "excuse" for "tolerance training" in connection with racial differences?

Is this all that different?

I have some qualms about ANY kind of sex education in school, but I have fewer about "tolerance training."

Jolly, it's not just about what people do with their body parts...not hardly.

jf
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 01:57 PM

Sob story, nothing more. I would have hoped that he wrote a "letter" to his parents expaining "who he was"--always a sign of good parenting, when your kid writes you a "letter" saying who he/she is before they die.

The lady is making excuses, just making excuses.
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 02:10 PM

Thank you, gryphon, for answering for me (no sarcasm). As you may have noticed I alluded to your news bulletin about NAMBLA elsewhere.

And BTW, I think NAMBLA is a beyond belief disgusting organization, set up to rationalize, (as most pedophiles do), that their victims enjoy it...or have even seduced them, the predators!

I stand by my original statement though, because with all the prejudice about homosexuality, it's very unfair as well as inaccurate to associate/attribute a crime to the small numbers within that group who engage in it or approve of it.

It's kind of like the stigma about mental illness. The number of persons with a psychosis who engage in violent crime is minute. However, the publicity attached to the few sensational crimes where these poor crazies are involved, feeds the general public's fear and prejudice about mental illness.

In terms of set-theory, the sub-set of homosexual pedophiles is also minute, far outweighed by the larger set of heterosexual pedophiles.

The shock and outrage value attached to the abuse of a boy, however, is (I maintain) far greater than that attached to abuse of female minors because of the public's distrust and fear of homosexuality. Amd yet the number of minor females abused is many multiples of the number of males (no, I don't have numbers at hand. Ask your friendly neighborohood Chief of Police).

As far as the signatories above - God only knows - but I think you've heard of "sampling error". I dare say that the number of gays who belong to that activist organization are not representative of gays at large (most of whom I'll bet are still closeted, many even to themselves). It's even possible that this particular organization consists particularly of the most aggressive, hostile, "in-your-face" gays around. Think about it...How many actual "card-carrying" gays do you think there are?

Ariel
Posted by: Luke's Dad

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 02:11 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
"tolerance training."


jf [/b]
Hmmm,"tolerance training", not too Orwellian! :rolleyes:
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 02:20 PM

jf, your article is titled "Discrimination can kill." The mother says discrimination can kill the body. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the kid died of AIDS because he was engaging in risky sexual behavior. So in actuality, discrimination can save lives. If he had been discriminating in who he slept around with he'd still be alive today.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 02:27 PM

Ariel, I never said the majority of homosexuals were pedophiles. *You* said that to associate pedophilia with homosexuality is unfair. I pointed out to you that NAMBLA proudly marches in all the "gay" pride parades behind their own banner. I pointed out to you that they are a member of other mainstream homosexual organizations. I pointed out to you that ILGA tried to force all of their member organizations to sign an anti-pedophilia pledge and over half refused to! So don't tell me that any association between homosexuals and pedophilia is non-existant.
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 02:34 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
jf, your article is titled "Discrimination can kill." The mother says discrimination can kill the body. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the kid died of AIDS because he was engaging in risky sexual behavior. So in actuality, discrimination can save lives. If he had been discriminating in who he slept around with he'd still be alive today. [/b]
Gryph, you are right there is a certain disconnect. It is a letter to the editor and I think the paper supplied the title. The point was just to put a human face on some of the points that have been made...in particular the very high suicide rate among gay teens, many of whom no doubt found it just too painful to live in a world where so many of their peers are intolerant of "fags" and some make a game out of beating them up.

Teaching tolerance can't be that bad in this context can it?

jf
Posted by: Toddler2

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 02:36 PM

I'd like to see documentation of that Gryphon. The ILGA pledge part. Do you have a link? It seems unlikely to me.

Todd

Nevermind,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Lesbian_and_Gay_Association
Not sure about the source, but it is interesting. It also isn't the same as your story. They asked NAMBLA and others to leave, and the groups refused. A few months later ILGA booted them.

Seems like ILGA wasn't very discriminate in what groups could join them a decade ago. Also appears they've improved. However, this prior association of the organizations doesn't establish a scientific link between homosexuality and pedophilia. It only demonstrates that even gay/lesbian organizations can make mistakes, and correct them.

If Helms pressure on ILGA to remove any groups that support pedophilia from their ranks was effective, then the gay/lesbian community had 1 thing they could thank him for. 1.
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 02:44 PM

Gryphon, I never said that YOU said that the majority of gays are pedophiles.

I said that in terms of the numbers, to repeatedly forge a mental assciation (as if one caused the other) is unfair to the majority, who already face discrimination and misunderstanding.

I think it's fair to say that most pedophiles preying on boys are homosexual. I think it's fair to say that ALL pedophiles preying on young girls are heterosexual.

Do we associate (perhaps not the best word choice, originally) pedophilia with heterosexuality?

Perverts are perverts, gay or straight.

Ariel
Posted by: Toddler2

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 02:55 PM

Actually, men who are attracted to male children are not homosexuals. They are pedophiles.

They are not generally attracted to adult men or adult woman. I don't know what the statistics on those who are attracted to adults is, but I have never seen a study showing they are primarily homosexual, or that even a large percentage of them are.

Only studies showing the opposite.

Todd
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 03:01 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Toddler2:
I'd like to see documentation of that Gryphon. The ILGA pledge part. Do you have a link? It seems unlikely to me.[/b]
Warning: these are homosexual websites. 18 and over only, please.

http://www.camprehoboth.com/issue07_27_01/pastout.htm

In its effort to appease the U.N., ILGA demanded that members sign a statement saying they do not condone pedophilia. Many refused on principle, and one—the Toronto-based Pink Triangle Press, which publishes three Canadian gay newspapers—was so outraged by the ultimatum it resigned. This was especially painful, because just two years earlier Pink Triangle had come to ILGA’s aid with a $10,000 donation.

By July 1996, less than half of its membership had signed the anti-pedophilia statement, and ILGA announced it would rescind the requirement.

http://gaytoday.badpuppy.com/garchive/world/020602wo.htm

ILGA circulated an anti-pedophilia pledge and demanded that all member organizations sign it...In fact, ILGA withdrew the requirement that members sign the document in 1996 after over half refused to do so.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/ipce/newsletters/nl_e_2.html

The Canadian gay newspaper X-tra recently resigned from the ILGA, rather than signs the ILGA anti-pedophilia declaration.
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 03:16 PM

Todd,

I’m sure you’re right about my sensitivity to the issue because of my single parent-mother-of-sons status.

Started when my strong-willed older son announced at four, that he wanted to pee sitting down (very hard to demonstrate the alternative).

Next watershed in my attitudes came when son #2, at around the same age, asked me to paint his nails with nail-polish.

Gulp. First thought - get him nail-polish, why not? After all, this is a Mom who purchased not only a baby doll for my sons (in case they felt like nurturing play), but a BLACK baby doll! And I routinely give small female relatives, building sets involving ingenuity.

Buuuut. Nail-polish?

First response,
Me:“Well, honey, that’s just for girls.”
Son: “Why?” Arms crossed and challenging look, way up at me.
Me: (vastly simplified) “Just because.”
Son: “But that’s not FAIR!”
Me: “Well, in a way not, but the way it works is, girls and boys (and men and women) each get to wear DIFFERENT cool things.”
Son: "So what do BOYS get to wear that girls don’t?"
Me: (long silence while I grasp desperately at straws, picturing Diane Keaton among other things)"...Ties!” - said in a slightly squeaky voice, with overly bright smile.
Son: (No words, but...a look. THE look. You know, the look that says, “Oh, WOW!“’ and “You grown-ups are SOOO full of it”.)
My heart and brain do a frantic little dance with each other ending with my principles being tossed out the window, bloodied by reality.

I changed tack, talking about Convention, and being laughed at, and attitudes and fairness. And a whole lot of other stuff.. .

But no nail-polish.

And that’s pretty much where it’s stood since then. I distinguish between Convention and Morals/Ethics in a great many issues. (My kids have pretty salty tongues at home, for instance, for four letter words, relatively speaking. But there's zero tolerance for words, like “retarded” as in “That shirt is so RETARDED!" And general meanness.)

Long digression. All to say - again - Yes, Todd, you are oh so right! And I know I wouldn't have been half so troubled had there been a father in the house.

Ariel \:\)
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 03:19 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
It is a letter to the editor and I think the paper supplied the title.[/b]
The paper supplied the title directly from the mother's letter: Discrimination kills...it kills sometimes the body. Her son participated in risky sexual behavior--homosexual acts--and died of AIDS. He didn't die from being taunted, he didn't die from intolerance, he didn't even commit suicide by jumping off of a bridge because of societal pressure against him. He contracted AIDS from having sex with other guys. Period.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 03:21 PM

Ariel, that's when a dad would have shown him cool, man-things like chainsaws, firearms, and other manly implements of destruction.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 03:29 PM

 Quote:
Posted by gryphon: The paper supplied the title directly from the mother's letter: Discrimination kills...it kills sometimes the body. Her son participated in risky sexual behavior--homosexual acts--and died of AIDS. He didn't die from being taunted, he didn't die from intolerance, he didn't even commit suicide by jumping off of a bridge because of societal pressure against him. He contracted AIDS from having sex with other guys. Period.[/b]
The man killed himself. That's all. Everybody knows that AIDS kills. Everybody knows how you get it. Society has nothing to do with it. Parents need to teach their children responsibility for their own lives--as opposed to schools teaching cross dressing. Get a life.

Next case.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 03:40 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Toddler2:
Seems like ILGA wasn't very discriminate in what groups could join them a decade ago.[/b]
Actually NAMBLA was a founding member, I believe.
 Quote:
Also appears they've improved.[/b]
The ILGA has a long-standing history of pedophilia advocacy. As I pointed out previously, up until their "political" agenda changed they lobbied all their member organizations to get their respective governments to abolish pedophilia laws. Even your story states that their sudden request to condemn pedophilia was "contrary to some past resolutions on the matter" and "it was decided that 'groups or associations whose predominant aim is to support or promote pedophilia are incompatible with the future development of ILGA'." Not that they all of a sudden decided that pedophilia was wrong, but that it was no longer in their interest politically and would hamper their agenda.
 Quote:
doesn't establish a scientific link between homosexuality and pedophilia[/b]
Again, some people here need to pay attention to their reading comprehension. I am not saying that all homosexuals are pedophiles. I simply pointed out that Ariel was incorrect in stating that any association between the two was incorrect. If the homosexual community thinks pedophilia is wrong then why are pedophiles such as NAMBLA proudly in their "gay" pride parades? Bernard, Lady Elton, and Ariel can't seem to answer that, either.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 03:55 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
Ariel, that's when a dad would have shown him cool, man-things like chainsaws, firearms, and other manly implements of destruction. [/b]
Or during potty training, the manly art of "sink the cheerio". \:D
Posted by: EHpianist

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 04:18 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
jf, your article is titled "Discrimination can kill." The mother says discrimination can kill the body. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the kid died of AIDS because he was engaging in risky sexual behavior. So in actuality, discrimination can save lives. If he had been discriminating in who he slept around with he'd still be alive today. [/b]
You mean straight people don't get AIDS? You should go work for Thabo Mbeki in South Africa, you two would hit it off.

Conservatories being the 'artsy' environment that they are, you can imagine that I have been surrounded by gays throughout most of my adult life (frequently bemoaning the fact that all the hunks at school were gay!), my last year in college I roomed with a male homosexual couple, they both told me, as many others have as well, they knew they were 'different' since they were quite small. A gay acquaintance from the conservatory was stabbed to death for being gay while he was taking out the trash from his apartment. Several years ago a twenty-something year old friend of mine confided in me months before he publicly came out that, almost exactly like this article describes, he hated who he was, that he didn't want to dissapoint his parents and his sister and he thought they would never get over the fact that he was gay. He didn't want to be who he was, he had contemplated suicide but thought better of it. He is not nor ever has been promiscuous. Of the dozens of gays I have known only 3 or 4 of them were promiscuous, the rest were either temporarily celibate or in long-term relationships. But I guess it is the bad apple that ruins the bushel.

You bet this is about tolerance, acceptance and a breakdown of stereotypes, just as JF says. I'm not sure I agree with the skit for the "I'll crush them all" attitude, but I have no objection to breaking the sterortype molds for boys and girls so that they learn to accept eachother's behavior as natural. I have a little six year old nephew who, if he doesn't turn out to be gay, he sure has been going through a girlie phase since he was 2!! He loves pink, loves wearing girls dresses, playing with dolls, barbies and unicorns, wearing pearl necklaces and putting on his mom's makeup and high heels. It has nothing to do with the parenting: his older brother is about as boyish as you can get, loves hunting, football and constructing things, even his baby sister is a Tom-boy, or with environment: his parents have never moved, live 5 minutes from grandparents and he has attended the same schools and has had the same teachers as his older brother. He just is what he is and, to his parents credit, they do not impose stereotypes on him, the same way the haven't with any of their children. They figure he will either grow out of it or grow into it but there's no point in forcing him down a path that is not his choice just so they can have a "normal" little boy who hates himself. The sad thing is that this child will eventually meet up with the likes of TomK, [edit] Jolly and Larry in his life.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com


Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 04:32 PM

Sorry,

If you can't keep your pants on, and engage in risky sexual behavior, you will run the risk of contracting HIV.

One does not contract HIV from water fountains, in the check-out line at the grocery store, or singing in church. Ya gotta go out, and pro-actively get yourself infected.

A virus is not interested in your opinion, or mine. It is only interested in replicating itself, and if the host dies, too bad.
Posted by: Luke's Dad

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 04:32 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by EHpianist:
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
jf, your article is titled "Discrimination can kill." The mother says discrimination can kill the body. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the kid died of AIDS because he was engaging in risky sexual behavior. So in actuality, discrimination can save lives. If he had been discriminating in who he slept around with he'd still be alive today. [/b]
You mean straight people don't get AIDS? You should go work for Thabo Mbeki in South Africa, you two would hit it off.

[/b]
Elena, Gryphon never said anything about heterosexual vs. homosexual. His point was, that you need to be discriminating with your partners no matter your orientation. It was not an attack on homosexuality. Of course straight people get AIDS, but it is more prevalent in the United States in the Gay community. At least, it's been reported that way. If this is true, then it's only natural for gays to have to be even more cautious than heteros about their partners.
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 04:45 PM

Ariel,

If you were a single-parent father, instead of a single-parent mother, would the subject ever have come up?

As a man, if I were a single parent, I really can't imagine ever buying my little boy a black doll, white doll, chinese doll, ANY doll to play with (if he wanted one, fine, but I can't imagine that ever being a request before more GI-Joes or Transformers). I don't think such playtime would have been possible anyway, given the time spent on playing "male" stuff.

"OK buddy, let's stop souping-up these AA-cell toys with the 9-volt batteries, 'cause I think it's time to play with that new black baby doll I got you."

What were you thinking? - your son was part of your personal outcome-based psychological experiment?

Yeah, OK, none of my business.

But my point is, if you think such activities do make a positive difference for your son's development -- part of your household -- then the same applies to a gay household. What the "parents" decide influences the child, yet there is no data on gay marriage, only the desire to play mommy/daddy (but there will never be a father). So the school will help? How? By teaching tolerance to all the kids via a play? And those that write such plays, are they males (I mean husbands/fathers/men, not women who think that knowing what it's like to be a boy comes from reading a book) that know what it means to be a male, or are they activists still trying to change behavior of children via outcomes = social engineering: the sexual orientation version?

Maybe I should write one of these plays for schools. It could start with a little boy on stage saying, "I like to play with black baby dolls, because it teaches me tolerance" (liberals applause wildly, nodding in agreement). . ."plus, I like to look up the dress" (whew! - a normal boy, the handfull of fathers in the audience chuckle to themselves, but not out loud of course)
Posted by: EHpianist

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 04:52 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luke's Dad:
Elena, Gryphon never said anything about heterosexual vs. homosexual. [/b]

You are right, I misread the post in myhaste to read through all I had missed. My appologies, Gryphon.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
Posted by: bcarey

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:01 PM

Luke's Dad,

Sadly, I believe many homosexuals contracted AIDS before it was widely known that it was so prevalent in the homosexual population. Many of the ones I know who have died, and those I know who have the disease, contracted it before those facts were known. You medical people do correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe one can have it many years before it becomes full blown and apparent that you are sick.

Take that a step further, and I'm only guessing, but I believe that many gay and lesbian people literally go through hell, in coming to terms with their homosexuality. I know people who have, some successfully, some not so successfully. I'm quite sure that some knowingly throw caution to the wind, and have unprotected sex or do not know the status of their partners AIDS status. In short, their family and society has scorned them. They just don't give a damn.

Also sadly, this was labeled a homosexual disease early on, and yes I will say it, Reagan, chose to ignore it. If there had been an affirmative action plan when this was first known, this disease would not have spread the way it has today. It is literally devasting Africa. With all the "hoopla" about SARS, one would think that at best, a similar campaign could have been waged before the disease mushroomed to what it is today. It could very well do the same to China and Russia, that has already done to Africa. Also correct me if I'm wrong but the fastest growing incidents in the US are in the African American community. And no one is doing anything to stop it!!!

Sorry for getting off topic.
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:03 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Todd,

I’m sure you’re right about my sensitivity to the issue because of my single parent-mother-of-sons status.

Started when my strong-willed older son announced at four, that he wanted to pee sitting down (very hard to demonstrate the alternative).

Next watershed in my attitudes came when son #2, at around the same age, asked me to paint his nails with nail-polish.

Gulp. First thought - get him nail-polish, why not? After all, this is a Mom who purchased not only a baby doll for my sons (in case they felt like nurturing play), but a BLACK baby doll! And I routinely give small female relatives, building sets involving ingenuity.

Buuuut. Nail-polish?

First response,
Me:“Well, honey, that’s just for girls.”
Son: “Why?” Arms crossed and challenging look, way up at me.
Me: (vastly simplified) “Just because.”
Son: “But that’s not FAIR!”
Me: “Well, in a way not, but the way it works is, girls and boys (and men and women) each get to wear DIFFERENT cool things.”
Son: "So what do BOYS get to wear that girls don’t?"
Me: (long silence while I grasp desperately at straws, picturing Diane Keaton among other things)"...Ties!” - said in a slightly squeaky voice, with overly bright smile.
Son: (No words, but...a look. THE look. You know, the look that says, “Oh, WOW!“’ and “You grown-ups are SOOO full of it”.)
My heart and brain do a frantic little dance with each other ending with my principles being tossed out the window, bloodied by reality.

I changed tack, talking about Convention, and being laughed at, and attitudes and fairness. And a whole lot of other stuff.. .

But no nail-polish.

And that’s pretty much where it’s stood since then. I distinguish between Convention and Morals/Ethics in a great many issues. (My kids have pretty salty tongues at home, for instance, for four letter words, relatively speaking. But there's zero tolerance for words, like “retarded” as in “That shirt is so RETARDED!" And general meanness.)

Long digression. All to say - again - Yes, Todd, you are oh so right! And I know I wouldn't have been half so troubled had there been a father in the house.

Ariel \:\) [/b]
Ariel
Your post is why I read this forum.
You reveal yourself.
You talk of your personal experience with your loved ones.
You reveal your conflicts.
What happened when "how it should be" crashes with "how it is".
I love that.
That is where I live.

So not puritan.
So not arogant.
So not principled.
So human.

Thanks
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:05 PM

Ain't it the truth.

And, Kenny, why is your signature line funny? \:D
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:09 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
Bernard, Lady Elton, and Ariel can't seem to answer that, either. [/b]
gryphon
Oh, please nail me to this cross too.
kenny
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:13 PM

 Quote:
"Lured" involves some sort of reward, which has not been demonstrated. And to even consider that anyone, no matter how militant, considers homosexuality better than heterosexuality, belies your complete ignorance of the subject.
As a person who's fished a bit, and trapped a good deal more, I well understand the concept of lures. I meant exactly what I said.

No, I don't think I'm ignorant. I do undertsand the need of some people when engaging in reprehensible behavior, to assume the air of moral superiority. Drug addicts do it. Drunks do it. Pedophiles do it.

So why not the most militant of gays?

 Quote:
You really don't know any homosexuals, do you?
Not in the Biblical sense, no.

But I'm sure you could give me a blow-by-blow description. I have a strong scientific curious streak.

However, when I pointed out that I do know some homosexuals, and in fact have known them for many years, why suddenly, I don't know what I am talking about.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Either I know them, and interact with them on a daily basis, or I'm living on the dark side of the moon. Seeing as how the 'net doesn't reach that side of the moon, we can deductively say the first allegory is true.

 Quote:
Let's get one thing completely clear here. There is absolutely no excuse for any adult, gay or straight, to prey upon children for sexual activity. Period. Children do not have the mental or emotional capacity to understand the implications of sexual activity.
Agreed.

 Quote:
That said, though, there is an age at which children do become aware of sexual matters in a mostly adult sense. And at this age, kids start to become more clearly aware of whether they are attracted to the same or the opposite sex (or both). This is all spontaneously generated, needing no induction, coercion, argument or rationale from anyone else. It really just is what it is, and isn't influenced by any cultural or social factors.
Bend a willow tree as it grows, and you can make it twist itself into knots, ultimately choking itself to death.

Let me have you at an early enough age, and I could train you to believe you were a dog.

Your premise demands that people are either born homosexual, or not. Gryphon has given many examples in just the past few weeks that adequately refute that hypothesis.

 Quote:
For others, the choice is to display an outward indifference to sexual matters so as not to raise any suspicions. And for yet another portion, the internalized loathing of their own homosexual attraction puts them into attack mode against other homosexuals, as if by externalizing the attraction and destroying it they can sublimate their own desires.
Apparently, "I'm OK, you're Ok", does not work for gays?

 Quote:
But, woe betide the child who for reasons of personal integrity refuses to hide behind a mask of heterosexual "normalness" in such a society. He or she will likely be ostracized by family, church and friends.
Not condoned, and ostracized, are not in the same ballpark. I'm pretty much the most fundamental Christian on this board. I don't ever recall anybody being chunked out of church for their sins, unless those sins were perpetrated against the church, or while attending it.

 Quote:
Obviously, none of the scenarios presented above are "beneficial to society" for any number of reasons: loveless, trustless marriages, deception, violence, death, etc. But this is how things will remain until such time as society as a whole, and, perhaps even more importantly, we as individuals can learn to accept homosexuality as just another part of the human condition and not something revolting.
I would like for society to become better. I do not see how including more ambiguity into the societal mores makes the society better.

As I said, what gay folks do on their own time, and in their own homes, is their business. When they bally-hoo their lifestyle to my children on the taxpayer's dime, it becomes my business.
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:15 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
Ain't it the truth.

And, Kenny, why is your signature line funny? \:D [/b]
I remember looking at one of my watercolor paintings.
It was just so damn good.

I looked at it as a toddler looks at his poo in the toilet, fascinated at what came out of his body.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:16 PM

how profound...
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:17 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SameKenny:
Ariel
Your post is why I read this forum.
You reveal yourself.
You talk of your personal experience with your loved ones.
You reveal your conflicts.
What happened when "how it should be" crashes with "how it is".
I love that.
That is where I live.

So not puritan.
So not arogant.
So not principled.
So human.

Thanks [/b]
yes

jf
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:27 PM

Hey jolly, gryphon and renuda, (and who else?)
Why do you use fake names?
What are your real names?
What's amadah?
Ashamed?
Protecting your ill-gotten wealth?

Why are the most verbose righties less likely to show up at piano parties?

Also,
If lefties are more “live and let live” are they not more likely to not bother posting to "fix" anyone?
Or at least, more likely to see the futility of fighting?

Or, perhaps they just tolerate intolerance?

Anyone care to start a list to compare righties and lefties?
Monikers vs. real names.
Absent or present at events.
Posted by: Luke's Dad

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:33 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SameKenny:
If lefties are more “live and let live” are they not more likely to not post?
Or at least, to see the stupidity of fighting?
Or, tolerate intolerance?


Anyone care to start a list to compare? [/b]
Actually, my experience with lefties suggests they are less likely to ascribe to live and let live; oh, they're the first to spout the saying, but the last to actually live the idea.
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:37 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Luke's Dad:
 Quote:
Originally posted by SameKenny:
If lefties are more “live and let live” are they not more likely to not post?
Or at least, to see the stupidity of fighting?
Or, tolerate intolerance?


Anyone care to start a list to compare? [/b]
Actually, my experience with lefties suggests they are less likely to ascribe to live and let live; oh, they're the first to spout the saying, but the last to actually live the idea. [/b]
Luke's dad is a fake name!

. . .

Next. . .
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:46 PM

Mr. Same Kenny (that's really your name?),

Please do not hijack the thread. If you're concerned about people not using their real names, start a separate thread about it.

Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:48 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SameKenny:
Hey jolly, gryphon and renuda, (and who else?)
Why do you use fake names?
What are your real names?
What's amadah?
Ashamed?
Protecting your ill-gotten wealth?

Why are the most verbose righties less likely to show up at piano parties?

Also,
If lefties are more “live and let live” are they not more likely to not post?
Or at least, to see the stupidity of fighting?
Or, tolerate intolerance?


Anyone care to start a list to compare? [/b]
Actually most of us are not too hard to find, if you really want to.

But I do like to think that I'm smart enough to maintain at least a small modicum of privacy on the internet...

See, I pointed out to KathyK awhile back, that if I was a bad person, by using the link that was formerly on her profile, I could do about what I wanted, since I knew where she lived, and what she looked like. Since people are creatures of habit, a few days stakeout, a few innocuous inquiries, and I could have left her in a road ditch, with nobody the wiser.

As to your current writing quality, may I suggest that you go back to staring at poo in the toilet, as I suspect you are feces-faced enough to appreciate it.
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:50 PM

My name is kenny.
I hosted PianoFourm's VERY FIRST piano party in my HOME.
My idea.

A brave act of trust, and the belief in humanity, and in the uniting power of music.
Open to both righties and lefties alike.
A good time was had by all.
All 5 So. Cal. piano parties since have been inclusive and transcendent experiences.
I seem to recall Bernard hosted a party in his home.
In New York, Brooklyn, no less.

What do ya say, next one at Jolly house?
-post edited-
Posted by: bcarey

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 05:53 PM

And I thought that I was turning this thread from the original post. Silly me. Looks like a donut to me. \:D
Posted by: Luke's Dad

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 06:10 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SameKenny:
Luke's dad is a fake name!

. . .

Next. . . [/b]
Actually, more people call me by that than they do my given name \:D .
and that's capitol "D" to you :p .

If you go back to my first post on the forum, then under the name William88 before I lost my password, you will find that the reason I don't post under my given name deals with company policy for my employer. As we had unfortunately had an employee post false information (he was fired), we adopted this policy so that anything I post doesn't reflect poorly on my company.

Besides, what's it to you if I use an alias? Live and let live, isn' t that what you said before?[/b]
Posted by: Luke's Dad

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 06:25 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rvaga:
Mr. Same Kenny (that's really your name?),

Please do not hijack the thread. If you're concerned about people not using their real names, start a separate thread about it.

[/b]
You're right. Sorry I got pulled into it.

Back to the thread at hand:

By the reckoning of those that defend the song/skit; do I have a right to put on a show at a school where a character sings about how they don't want to have sex, and all the other boys and girls laugh at him/her and call the character names, but it's ok because in the end, all the other children are going to be crack-whores and die of AIDS? After all, shouldn't we teach tolerance of those that wish to abstain?

How about a show where a christian boy sings about how he's made fun of because he won't shoplift, because he concentrats on Jesus at christmas and not Santa Claus, and because he prays; but it's ok, because in the end he will go to heaven while the other kids burn in eternal hell. That's appropriate for teaching tolerance of religion, isn't it?
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 06:32 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:See, I pointed out to KathyK awhile back, that if I was a bad person, by using the link that was formerly on her profile, I could do about what I wanted, since I knew where she lived, and what she looked like. Since people are creatures of habit, a few days stakeout, a few innocuous inquiries, and I could have left her in a road ditch, with nobody the wiser.
[/QB]
Jolly
Will you murder me too?
If you DO host the next piano party, perhaps it should be at a local dealer.
Kenny
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 06:34 PM

The sad thing is that this child will eventually meet up with the likes of TomK, Jbryan and Larry in his life. [/b]

Now Elena, that was unfair. If he "met up with the likes of me", he would find that he was treated with the same respect that anyone else is, and would continue to receive that same treatment until he did something to cause me to treat him otherwise.

Tolerance works two ways. You want people to not stereotype homosexuals, so don't stereotype me.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 06:44 PM

Kenny's snapped.

And my name's TOM and my last name begins with a "K".

(apple and I have chatted about hosting a piano party in the Keys--but I have no piano there.)
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 06:49 PM

 Quote:
Luke's Dad:
By the reckoning of those that defend the song/skit; do I have a right to put on a show at a school where a character sings about how they don't want to have sex. . . After all, shouldn't we teach tolerance of those that wish to abstain?
[/b]
I think that's a very good question.

Why do only certain perspectives of social mores get the green light for inclusion into K-12 curriculum, while other perspectives not?

Curious that in K-12 education, the promotion of acceptance of "diversity" was not implemented by caring people looking for humane benefits. The emphasis of including diversity training in all facets of public education was the result of corporations demanding (via NCEE) that schools provide a better work force: high school grads that could work in diverse groups in a group-consensus job environment, and be able to present issues in front of a group (public speaking emphasis). The implementation of diversity training in the public school curriculum had to do with improving worker productivity, it was not part of any liberal agenda (but they think it was, or at least took the ball and ran with it).
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 06:55 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
Kenny's snapped.

And my name's TOM and my last name begins with a "K".

(apple and I have chatted about hosting a piano party in the Keys--but I have no piano there.) [/b]
okay
If you say so, I snapped, but Jolly' reference to leaving Kathy in the ditch was somwhat snappy:

quote of Jolly:
See, I pointed out to KathyK awhile back, that if I was a
bad person, by using the link that was formerly on her profile, I could do about what I wanted, since I knew where she lived, and what she looked like. Since people are creatures of habit, a few days stakeout, a few innocuous inquiries, and I could have left her in a road ditch, with nobody the wiser.

Hmmmm

Anyway, I love the Keys.
Great for renting mopeds and diving.
Rent a piano. . .
Name a date.

Do you love music Tom?
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 06:56 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
Kenny's snapped.

And my name's TOM and my last name begins with a "K".

(apple and I have chatted about hosting a piano party in the Keys--but I have no piano there.) [/b]
What about the Bosie? Or was that a Farfisa?
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 07:51 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by EHpianist:
You mean straight people don't get AIDS? [/b]
Neither my wife nor I will ever get AIDS. (Unless it is introduced into us through a blood transfusion I suppose). We don't engage in risky behaviors like sleeping around or IV drug use. This guy engaged in risky behavior that, sadly, resulted in him contracting AIDS. I believe I said that in each post.
 Quote:
You bet this is about tolerance[/b]
Intolerance gave him AIDS?
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 07:52 PM

kathy--if you can do the rear end--I can do the Bosie!
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 08:12 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by bcarey:
I believe many homosexuals contracted AIDS before it was widely known that it was so prevalent in the homosexual population.[/b]
It became known in the homosexual population in the late 70's. In 1981 the CDC called it "gay cancer" then GRID (gay-related immune deficiency). By now The New York times is publishing articles on it, hundreds of cases are diagnosed and lots of people are dying. In 1982 the CDC changes the name to AIDS. The Gay Men's Health Crisis is formed. Now thousands are diagnosed in the U.S. and they're dying by the hundreds. 1983, now they're dying by the thousands in the U.S. 1985, now the death toll is well over 10,000 a year and AIDS cases are numberd in the tens of thousands in the U.S. 1988, over 100,000 AIDS cases in the U.S.

So that's, what, way over 20 years everyone has known about it. So why are millions of people still contracting AIDS each year? This poor mother's son was a college student, he wasn't an idiot. So why did he just die of AIDS recently? His behavior.
 Quote:
Many of the ones I know who have died, and those I know who have the disease, contracted it before those facts were known.[/b]
So they all died 25 years ago?
 Quote:
the fastest growing incidents in the US are in the African American community. And no one is doing anything to stop it!!![/b]
People are contracting AIDS because of their behavior.[/b] They have the power to stop it today, immediately, by stopping their behavior.
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 08:27 PM

Well, if you must know, Dr. RV, the black baby doll is still in my attic in her box - one of many items I am debating selling on eBay.

I'm a sucker for sales. It's a very nice baby doll (though the features are pretty white).

And if you look back at my original post you will see I had puchased it "in case my sons felt like nurturing play" They didn't, so it stayed in the attic.
 Quote:
What were you thinking? - your son was part of your personal outcome-based psychological experiment? [/b]
Now, any other ways you want to play "gotcha" with my fetish about social engineering? Or rather your fetish that I have a fetish.

Ariel
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 08:34 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
kathy--if you can do the rear end--I can do the Bosie! [/b]
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 08:36 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SameKenny:
gryphon Oh, please nail me to this cross too.[/b]
What the heck are you talking about?
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 08:45 PM

I think he's trying to weave the liberal threads together into a shroud.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 08:45 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SameKenny:
Hey ... gryphon...
Why do you use fake names?[/b]
I use my real name. My real name is in my profile, as is the town where I live. I am also in the phone book. Everyone here knows what company I work for. Most in the Coffee Room probably even know a bit about some of my family (at least a couple of my kids). What about you? Is your name Kenny Jodgflylmp? What city do you live in? Who do you work for? And your kids?
 Quote:
Why are the most verbose righties less likely to show up at piano parties?[/b]
I have never been to one in Colorado or New York or California or Washington because I live in Michigan.
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 08:47 PM

Sameto you SameKenny (SaneKenny),
Thank you. \:\)

And you too, Luke's Dad, from earlier on. \:\) (What's the name problem with you? Luke is a real name, so that's you. You know in Arab countries, parents get renamed after their - boy - children. Mothers anyhow.)

You two are on the side of the angels.

Ariel
Posted by: Matt G.

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 10:51 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
But I'm sure you could give me a blow-by-blow description. I have a strong scientific curious streak.[/b]
Cute, very cute. You kiss you mother with that mouth? \:o

And, honestly, are you trying to insinuate that I'm gay in some sort of misguided effort to undermine my credibility?

 Quote:
However, when I pointed out that I do know some homosexuals, and in fact have known them for many years, why suddenly, I don't know what I am talking about.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Either I know them, and interact with them on a daily basis, or I'm living on the dark side of the moon. Seeing as how the 'net doesn't reach that side of the moon, we can deductively say the first allegory is true.[/b]
Sorry, buddy boy, but the sad fact is that while you may be acquainted[/b] with a homosexual or two, you don't really interact with them on a completely open personal level with them. Yet it's all just surface, because that makes it easier to maintain the us vs. them mentality that pervades your statements of opinion. Methinks thou dost protest too much. Perhaps if you had a very close friend or beloved family member that turned out to be homosexual you might understand them a little better. A coworker is a coworker, and the intimate details of one's coworker's life are far less than one might know of those of a loved one.
 Quote:
Let me have you at an early enough age, and I could train you to believe you were a dog.[/b]
I've never maintained that children are not malleable. There are millions of extremist Muslims out there that confirm your point. My point is that homosexuality arises spontaneously, without any "training" or outside influence, and usually in spite[/b] of childhood training.
 Quote:
Your premise demands that people are either born homosexual, or not. Gryphon has given many examples in just the past few weeks that adequately refute that hypothesis.[/b]
Given a couple of hours, I could post far more examples that support my position. While I can appreciate your desire to cling to whatever tiny and controvertible evidence you have that supports your position, the theory that homosexuals can be "converted" is a decidedly fringe idea.
 Quote:
Apparently, "I'm OK, you're Ok", does not work for gays?[/b]
For gay bashers? Nope. They'd rather destroy the thing that causes them to be attracted than come to grips with their own attraction itself.

 Quote:
I would like for society to become better. I do not see how including more ambiguity into the societal mores makes the society better.[/b]
So, then, you think that the suicides and marriages based on deception are improving society? How?
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 11:15 PM

Matt G,

I follow your arguments, except for the following:

"For gay bashers? Nope. They'd rather destroy the thing that causes them to be attracted than come to grips with their own attraction itself."

Elaborate?
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/20/04 11:36 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:

... that was unfair. If he "met up with the likes of me", he would find that he was treated with the same respect that anyone else is, and would continue to receive that same treatment until he did something to cause me to treat him otherwise.

Tolerance works two ways. You want people to not stereotype homosexuals, so don't stereotype me.
I believe you, Larry, and I would like to put a pause in the thread at this point to say to everyone who might have been aghast to read the ramblings on pages 1-3 of this thread that I take responsibility and wish to apologize for the overly combative tone. Larry, I am sorry for getting things off to such a bad start. I have enough faith in humanity to believe that had I not made what seemed like a personal attack, many of your words would not have been written. And then I would not have felt compelled to hurl even more in your direction. Shall we start over? Shall we agree to retract our insults to one another? Personal insults that come from wounded souls can be excused and forgiven.

This does not mean that the words in this thread don't hurt--they do, and unless your name is Larry, ...

I hope you will understand that I thought the originating threads were stereotyping homosexuals. Even though they appear to, I could have done a better job at discriminating the issues. One of the issues is the tendency to isolate small incidents like the skit and use it to deride an entire group of people. We have seen this happen in the Coffee Room before when talking about gay day at Disney World. I am very sensitive to this sort of thing. (It always really infuriated me in school when the whole class was punished for the behavior of one person. Go figure.)

Many of you know I spent 20 years trying to change my sexuality and have come to a point of greater acceptance. I have also spent the last 20 years in celibacy. From this vantage point I see alot of what goes on in the homosexual community that disturbs me. (I see alot of what goes on in the heterosexual community that disturbs me.) The difference is that a homosexual (usually) grows up with a part of him/her self that remains invisible to everyone else. The most important people in a young homosexual's life must remain ignorant of the true child. This is a big tradgedy and explains a great deal of the behavior that is sometimes observed in homosexual people. People may say "well he acts that way because he's gay". The real reason he acts that way is because he has had to hide for so long and knows that if he didn't hide he'd be shunned and outcast. And when they may finally find a place that seems secure enough to come out, there's usually an explosion of exuberance from having been pent up for so long. There's often also confusion about how to act, knowing they may be insulted and/or physically hurt just for being who they are. There is a lot more I could say about this, but not now.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 12:15 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
Children are only young for a short while
They should be taught to be tolerant
They should be taught we are equal

They shouldn't be taught at too young an age
some of the things that burden adults
that they will experience all too soon. [/b]
apple, I meant to mention it last night, but being at work got distracted. I think it's a beautiful poem. "...some of the things that burden adults..."--They should be taught in their own good time (with an eye on reality, of course), don't you think?
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 12:55 AM

I logged on to apologize too.
I am too combative on this issue.
Equality is just too important.

Maybe I should just get used to people being intolerant.

And Jolly, granted, people who have been parents have a unique experience that can't be simulated.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 05:01 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SameKenny:
Equality is just too important.[/b]
No one has said that homosexuals aren't equal to anyone else. Pushing the teaching of anything of a sexual nature to little kids between five and ten years old, especially against their parents wishes (not to mention state law), is what we're discussing. How much simpler can it be?
Posted by: EHpianist

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 06:21 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
Now Elena, that was unfair. If he "met up with the likes of me", he would find that he was treated with the same respect that anyone else is, and would continue to receive that same treatment until he did something to cause me to treat him otherwise.[/b]
I am only reacting to what I have seen from you. Are you going to tell my young nephew things like:

I am sick and tired of having your perversion shoved in my face...You couldn't be normal if your life depended on it...Your defense of these perverts is pushing me faster and faster toward that opinion too.[/b]

Or will you save it until he grows up and you feel less guilty about telling him to keep his queer ways to himself so you can feel safer and more comfortable?

Tolerance should be taught in schools: religious, racial, and of masculine/femenine expressions(not specifically referring to the sexual if they are young). We all know that children will frequently trumpet their parents' prejudices, so why should schools --in an effort to create a more tolerant, less hate-filled society-- not try to counteract any possible prejudices learned at home and that relate so directly to the wellbeing of a society?

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
Posted by: EHpianist

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 06:44 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gryphon:
Neither my wife nor I will ever get AIDS. (Unless it is introduced into us through a blood transfusion I suppose). We don't engage in risky behaviors like sleeping around or IV drug use. [/b]

Gryphon, like I said earlier, I missread your post. I'm sorry for the confusion. I thought you said that if he had been straight he wouldn't have gotten AIDS. My bad. \:\(

You bet this is about tolerance

Intolerance gave him AIDS? [/b]

No. The whole skit thing, I just don't agree the manner in which the subject is voiced in the skit. Sure there could be skits about abstinency, and Christianiy, just as there should be about Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, safe sex, etc. BUT they should not be presented in a manner that says "I am better than you all" which I think is what this skit preaches and is wrong, but rather that it is all part of our society and should be accepted and not imposed on others. That individuals have the right to practice religion and love whomever they choose as long as it does no harm to another.

Why are some of these subjects given more importance than others? Because it is an attempt to focus attention on issues which are not part of the white, christian, heterosexual stereotype which kids have been bombarded with for generations and which give them little room to find role models if they don't fit this mold. Things, thankfully, are beginning to change but I don't think there will truly be acceptance of any of the thornier issues until they stop being part of the political arena and are thought of as a simple personal choice, like chocolate or vainilla.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 08:45 AM

Dear Matt,

I'm not insinuating, I think you are gay. I base my opinion not only on what you write on this topic, but how you write it, much as a dog defends a bone.

If I am incorrect, I will apologise in advance, if you feel one is needed.

I currently detect an undercurrent in your last statement, that rvaga noticed, namely that people secretly are drawn to the things that they publicly decry. I think that is a bogus argument.

There also is another issue at work within the thread, concerning what society should tolerate.

Some people think society should tolerate everything. I'm sorry, folks, but a society that tolerates everything, will eventually be supplanted by one that tolerates little.
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 09:08 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
kathy--if you can do the rear end--I can do the Bosie! [/b]
Sorry, Tommy, too much cellulite. \:\(
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 09:19 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by EHpianist:
Tolerance should be taught in schools: religious, racial, and of masculine/femenine expressions(not specifically referring to the sexual if they are young). We all know that children will frequently trumpet their parents' prejudices, so why should schools --in an effort to create a more tolerant, less hate-filled society-- not try to counteract any possible prejudices learned at home and that relate so directly to the wellbeing of a society?
Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com [/b]
Well said. We have made a lot of progress from the days when this county instutionalized intolerance and prejudice, but there is a way to go.

jf
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 09:35 AM

I am only reacting to what I have seen from you. Are you going to tell my young nephew things like:

I am sick and tired of having your perversion shoved in my face...You couldn't be normal if your life depended on it...Your defense of these perverts is pushing me faster and faster toward that opinion too.[/b]


Sigh.....

When writing in a little box, trying to be frugal both with space and time, one must assume that the reader bears these limitations in communication in mind, and keeps certain things in perspective. The word "you" does not always mean "you, the individual". "You" often refers to "you the group". One also writes with the intentions that what he writes be kept in logical context, and not torn apart and then pieced back together to form a different picture than the one originally intended.

When I said "having your perversion shoved in my face", I was not talking to any one person. Nor can you assume that I meant homosexuality is what I was referring to. So, instead of a comment intended to tell an individual that his homosexuality was a perversion, it can also be telling a group of people that dancing naked in the street dressed up in drag is perverse, or that a group of people putting on a play to teach little 5 year old boys how to wear dresses and high heels and make up are perverse. The key is the phrase "shoved in my face". The subject was not Bernard's sexual preference, the subject was teaching little 5 year old boys about sex, and doing so from an alternative point of view.

When I told Bernard "you couldn't be normal if your life depended on it", I was responding to his attack toward me, and that is how I do things. Get in my face, and I get right back in yours. Bernard has apologized, I had already, and the issue is over. I like Bernard. We *are* polar opposites. But that isn't a personal indictment of either one of us.

When I said "Your defense of these perverts is pushing me faster and faster toward that opinion", I said what I meant. Again, there was a clue you could have noticed that showed I was not directing the term "pervert" at Bernard, or any other individual. I said "these perverts", obviously referring to the group putting on these plays. It also is obvious that this is the kind of thing I am saying is being "shoved in my face". These people are going around the country teaching little kids that are too young to even think about sex or sexual preferences to think about them, and to "tolerate" them. I'm all for tolerance. I'm tolerant. But tolerance does not mean I just lay down and let every single thing that someone wants to do go by and simply put up with it. It doesn't mean I give up my standards, or my common sense. When you claim you are simply teaching tolerance, but your method of doing that is to take a room full of little 5 year old boys and teach them that it's ok for them to act like little girls and want to touch each other, you're a liar, and you're a pervert, and you have an agenda that has absolutely nothing to do[/b] with tolerance.

Or will you save it until he grows up and you feel less guilty about telling him to keep his queer ways to himself so you can feel safer and more comfortable?[/b]

That is an ignorant, bigotted statement Elena, and nothing more than a snide attack. I will tell him nothing, as long as he doesn't do something to offend me. Since you apparently are so clouded logically because of this topic, let me elaborate on that response though. If your nephew, as an adult, simply mentioned he was a homosexual, I would continue to talk with him in the same polite manner as before. His sexual preference is of no concern to me, and not the topic of our discussion. If he *made* his homosexuality a topic of discussion, I would tell him I didn't care about his sexual preferences one way or the other, and could we go back to talking about whatever we had been discussing beforehand. If he reach for my crotch and asked me for sex, I'd put him in the morgue. But until that happened, I would treat him exactly the same way I would treat anyone else. If on the other hand he said "I want to take a room full of 5 year old children and talk to them about my sexual preferences and tell them that they should be tolerant of it, and that if they feel like being like me it's ok", I would call him a pervert and let him know then and there that if he tries to talk to *my* kids like that he is in for a *really* rough ride. By the same token, if a heterosexual male said "I want to take a room full of 5 year old children and tell them what my wife and I like to do in bed and that if they feel like doing that too it's ok", I will call *him* a pervert, and let him know that he too is in for a really rough ride if he tries to talk to my 5 kid about things like that.

Get it through your head folks - K-6 kids are too young for this, and I don't care *what* your own personal sexual preferences are, keep them to yourself when you're around small children. If your goal is to teach tolerance, focus your energy where it is acceptable, and where it will do the most good - teach the parents how to parent and then get your ass out of their way and let them PARENT! Don't do it for them, don't take a bunch of little kids and give them information they are too young to process and claim you're teaching tolerance. And if you think that makes me some kind of homophobe, or some kind of throwback in the evolutionary ladder, so be it. But keep your agendas to yourself when you get around children.

GEEZ, for the life of me I can't understand what's so difficult about this for some of you to understand.
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 10:04 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
If on the other hand he said "I want to take a room full of 5 year old children and talk to them about my sexual preferences and tell them that they should be tolerant of it, and that if they feel like being like me it's ok", I would call him a pervert and let him know then and there that if he tries to talk to *my* kids like that he is in for a *really* rough ride. By the same token, if a heterosexual male said "I want to take a room full of 5 year old children and tell them what my wife and I like to do in bed and that if they feel like doing that too it's ok", I will call *him* a pervert, and let him know that he too is in for a really rough ride if he tries to talk to my 5 kid about things like that.[/b]
Larry, it's not just about body parts and it's not just about sex. I agree that young kids should not be learning about sex--hetro, homo, or miscellaneous---in elementary school. On the other hand, I believe that all kids at a very early age should learn that some men love each other and some women love each other in the same way that mommy and daddy love each other and that that is ok. The point is that by teaching tolerance and understanding at a young age you: (1) allow kids who start to realize in middle school that they may be gay to understand that they are not freaks, not alone, that they do not have to commit suicide to escape it, and (2) teach kids who are hetrosexual to accept the fact that others are different and that the differences should be respected rather than denigrated. These messages have to begin at a young age because otherwise it is too late.

In my mind, it's not a question of whether a parent "approves" of homosexuality, because homosexuality IS. It's a question of whether we are going to teach our children (finally) to respect and be tolerant of those who may be different, whether by race, religion, or sexual preference.

jf
Posted by: Matt G.

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 10:12 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
I'm not insinuating, I think you are gay. I base my opinion not only on what you write on this topic, but how you write it, much as a dog defends a bone.[/b]
Well, if you had actually read[/b] my question, you wouldn't have answered in this way. My question was why you would feel it necessary to resort to double-entendre and innuendo to take potshots at me[/b], rather than debating my position. Your description of my writing on this topic is also quite telling. You must somehow believe that no right-minded straight person could so sympathetically defend homosexuality. That is where you are absolutely wrong.

 Quote:
If I am incorrect, I will apologise in advance, if you feel one is needed.[/b]
You seem to have a penchant for apologetic lip-service statements like the one above. This statement couldn't be construed by anyone as an apology anyway. It is far too smug and insincere. Perhaps you should consider refraining from making statements that might require an apology. Or is that too difficult for you?

 Quote:
I currently detect an undercurrent in your last statement, that rvaga noticed, namely that people secretly are drawn to the things that they publicly decry. I think that is a bogus argument.[/b]
Think whatever you like, but a common psychological profile for a young gay-basher is someone who has been indoctrinated into the values of the anti-gay culture around him. Deep fear of his own secret same-sex feelings can drive him to act out against gay men, as if that will prove he isn't what they are, or to somehow vanquish the desires by attacking the things (gay men) that stir these repressed feelings. I'm quite sure this is not the case for all gay-bashers, and I wouldn't presume to even say this profile fits the majority. The point here, though, is that in this type of case, repressed homosexual feelings can lead to externalized violence.

 Quote:
Some people think society should tolerate everything. [/b]
Gee, there's really nothing like overgeneralization to needlessly sensationalize one's position. :rolleyes: Nobody has proposed or is proposing tolerating "everything", as you so carelessly tossed out. Can you really believe that tolerance of homosexuality is equivalent to tolerance of "everything"? Or is it that you just can't limit yourself to the topic being discussed?
 Quote:
I'm sorry, folks, but a society that tolerates everything, will eventually be supplanted by one that tolerates little.[/b]
Aahhh, the grand sweeping gesture designed to drive home the point. Unfortunately, you have no point, because the corollary is just as true, to wit: "A society that tolerates little will eventually be supplanted by one that tolerates much." I think that our society currently tolerates little, and would like to see a more tolerant one gradually overtake it. Sorry to hear that you think that's the wrong direction.
Posted by: John Andrew

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 10:39 AM

One of the interesting aspects of this debate is that the same people who are saying the skit is inappropriate for young children because they are young, malleable and should not/need not have to deal with issues such as this are the same ones who a couple of months ago were defending the school district in the South who were going after a Lesbian mother through her seven year old son.

Either children at this age are too young for this sort of thing or they are not. It can't be both ways.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 10:41 AM

Dearest Matt,

Well, I noticed you didn't deny my statement, so we shall procede under the assumption that you are gay, and have a vested interest in this argument...

Please notice that at no time has anyone that is not in favor of the current gay agenda advocated sweeping and radical changes against the gay community. What I have advocated, and argued vociferously for, is for the gay community to mind their own business, especially within this thread in respect to children.

When you want to spread your agenda in the public arena, you must persuade the political majority. As it stands right now, the gay community does not have the political impetus for the remedies they seek, and are in fact quite in danger of marginalizing themselves with much of the public.

This thread is a marvelous case in point. For all of the flag-waving about tolerance, the typical PTA parent wouldn't tolerate our red shoe skit past the opening statements. I know I certainly wouldn't.

As for apologetic lip statements, I was trying to be a bit kind. However, since you do not care to do so, that is your problem, not mine.

Lot of anger there, old son. Well, you've got the same pants to get glad in, that you got mad in, and right now, here's one board member that doesn't give a rolling red rat's rectum which side of the fence you fall on.

Lastly, society is painted in sweeping statements. It is a broad canvass, and I like to see a larger picture than most.

Maybe I have a better perspective than some.

TTFN, dude.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 10:46 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by John Andrew:
One of the interesting aspects of this debate is that the same people who are saying the skit is inappropriate for young children because they are young, malleable and should not/need not have to deal with issues such as this are the same ones who a couple of months ago were defending the school district in the South who were going after a Lesbian mother through her seven year old son.

Either children at this age are too young for this sort of thing or they are not. It can't be both ways. [/b]
No, the two issues are interelated, and I have taken a consistent position on both.
Posted by: Renauda

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 10:59 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SameKenny:
Hey jolly, gryphon and renuda, (and who else?)
Why do you use fake names?
What are your real names?
What's amadah?
Ashamed?
Protecting your ill-gotten wealth?

Why are the most verbose righties less likely to show up at piano parties?

[/b]
Its Renauda not renuda.

My name is Joe and my last name is irrelevant. Tom~*K thinks it (Joe) to be a common name so I have rightly chosen not to use it.

Amadah is an oilfield in Northern Saudi Arabia- why do you ask?

Ashamed of what?

As I have never accepted bribes I do not consider my wealth ill gotten. Nor do I feel any particular need to protect it through extraordinary means. I pay my taxes as required by law. I do expect my tax dollars to be used wisely rather than frivolously. I support public education and government administered universal health care benefits as a right of citizenship.

While it is true I am conservative about sexual matters I no more think of myself as a righty than I think of myself as a liberal. Nevertheless Jolly, Gryphon and a few others would have been shocked to learn that I am among their number. I am truly sorry for the inconvenience.

Still, a piano party in the US is a long way for me to travel for a drink and a good time. You are welcome to visit me though.
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 11:57 AM

I agree that young kids should not be learning about sex--hetro, homo, or miscellaneous---in elementary school. On the other hand, I believe that all kids at a very early age should learn that some men love each other and some women love each other in the same way that mommy and daddy love each other and that that is ok. [/b]

I fail to see much difference. And I couldn't disagree with you more. There are flaws in your logic on several levels in fact. Kids are sent to school to learn to read and write. Especially K-6, shouldn't be involved in anything else. Teaching kids about differences in adult relationships is not the job of the school, it is the job of the parents. Giving the school the right to take on that task is not teaching tolerance, it is robbing the parents of their rights, and it is damaging the child. I don't want my 5-11 year old kids taught that Bobby loves Billy. I want them to learn to read and write. That's all I want out of a school. That's all a school is supposed to do. When *I* feel my kids need to know that in some cases Bobby loves Billy, I'll tell them, and they will learn about tolerance toward it in the same way I have taught them about tolerance and civility in every other aspect of life. But *I* will teach them, not you, not the schools, and not some focus group with an agenda. A 5 year old kid doesn't need this shoved down their throats - they will see it, and ask questions. The ones they should be asking about it are their parents, and their parents will determine when and how to answer. And don't hand me the line about how some parents aren't capable of teaching it, or will teach them to be intolerant. That's the problem with *all* social engineering - it comes with the assumption that those doing the engineering can do it better than anyone else. Yes, there will be some parents who don't teach their kids the right thing. So I repeat - if you want to teach kids tolerance, teach the parents how to parent. The hard part for you to understand is that if a parent teaches his kid intolerance, you're just going to have to live with that. It's *his kid*, and just because some parents are going to teach their kids the wrong way doesn't give you or anyone else the right to take that parents rights away. And that's just exactly what happens when the educational system involves itself in social engineering, spending time and money trying to do the parents' job instead of teaching them to read and write. God knows the schools have been a miserable failure in that area for the last 2 decades, maybe it's time for them to go back to the basics and leave the social conscious education to the ones who are responsible for it - the parents.


The point is that by teaching tolerance and understanding at a young age you: (1) allow kids who start to realize in middle school that they may be gay to understand that they are not freaks, not alone, that they do not have to commit suicide to escape it, and (2) teach kids who are hetrosexual to accept the fact that others are different and that the differences should be respected rather than denigrated. These messages have to begin at a young age because otherwise it is too late.[/b]

Then TEACH THE PARENTS. Leave the kids alone. The vast majority of the kids are *not* going to be homosexual. Those that are should look to their parents, not the schools, for answers to their questions. You do not have the right to invade the lives of the entire population just to accomodate the few. Your very description of "These messages have to begin at a young age because otherwise it is too late" is clear evidence that this is nothing more than indoctrination. Your sentence is exactly how any *cult* explains how to program people to accept the cult's teaching. You aren't teaching tolerance, you're indoctrinating, programming an agenda.

In my mind, it's not a question of whether a parent "approves" of homosexuality, because homosexuality IS. It's a question of whether we are going to teach our children (finally) to respect and be tolerant of those who may be different, whether by race, religion, or sexual preference.[/b]

That's a poor way of expressing it. It has nothing to do with "approving" of homosexuality. It has to do with talking about things that a child isn't mature enough to deal with, it has to do with usurping the parents' authority, of using the school system to do the parents' job instead of what the kid is there to learn - reading and writing. *WE* aren't going to teach my kids anything. *I* am going to teach my children about sexual issues, about religion, and about race. The *school* is there to teach my kids how to read and write. If you want to do some beneficial social engineering, stick with teaching parents how to parent, and let the school stick to its purpose - teaching kids how to read and write. Get your social and political agendas out of the schools just like you want religion out of schools. Don't spend my kid's school day telling him about how some people like one sex and some like the other, and that we should be tolerant of that. Don't spend my kid's school day telling him if he wants to wear high heels and makeup that it's ok. Spend his day teaching him to read. Leave the other to me. It's my responsibility, and you have no right to infringe on that. And just as the "you" is a generic "you", the "I" is a generic "I", because I will bet every dime I have that this is the way the vast majority of parents feel. Even in the extremely remote possibility that it isn't, it *still* comes down to the children - leave the little kids alone about sexual issues.
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 12:16 PM

Joe, I apologize.
I was angry but should not have lashed out like that.
Sorry.
I will leave my posts as evidence of my stupidity.
Ever since the gay marriage thing hit the news it is really sinking in that gay people ARE discriminated against.
I had just gotten used to it.


Either gays are bad or they are not.
If they are bad, then plan A.
If they are not bad, then plan B.
Plan B is equality.


K-6 is a critical time.
The foundation wiring is taking place in the brain.
Certain things MUST be taught early, or they will never take.
Sunday schools are evidence of this.
I have already stated that I think the play in question is over the top.
Still tolerance must be appropriately taught by schools and by parents.
Just cause you are hetero, you must teach your young ones that different is not bad.
Just go on a playground and hear how those k-6ers talk.
7 th grade is too late.

Also, You can pretend to "tolerate" and not be a gay basher and claim to have adjusted to the existence of gays – at least to the outside world of adults.
BUT - what you teach your kids in the home is where the rubber meets the road.
People see their kids as their 2nd chance.
Posted by: Renauda

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 01:07 PM

No need to apologize. I did not think your posts or opinions as being stupid in any way.

Parents and teachers are models for children. Tolerance can be taught by modelling behavior. If you want children to be tolerant of diversity then demonstrate tolerance in your behavior- accept people as they are and laugh with people and not at them. Walk away from intolerance as fighting it only adds fuel to its cause.

Tolerance is not and nor should it be treated as a measurable outcome of school curriculum. There is no need for political, religious or social (i.e. sexual) ryhmes and stories which contribute further to the hidden curriculum in our schools. There is enough hidden curriculum that already infects the school to confuse children and dilute learning in the classroom.
Posted by: Matt G.

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 01:32 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Well, I noticed you didn't deny my statement, so we shall procede under the assumption that you are gay, and have a vested interest in this argument...[/b]
Perhaps you should spend less time trying to analyze my motives than explaining your own. I should also point out that you have not refuted some of the labels that others have pasted on you, so should we procede under the assumption that you are arrogant, dogmatic and condescending? You seem to feign compassion for homosexuals, all the while trumpeting the call that they should not be let out of their "place" in society. CYA in action, eh? Sorry, but I don't buy it.

But, I do, in fact, have a vested interest. But not in the manner you and your haphazard assumptions might think. You see, I have strong reasons to believe that a now deceased close relative was, in fact, homosexual. His own life and the lives of those around him were traumatized by the fact that he was never able to come to terms with this aspect of himself. Outwardly, he was the epitome of masculinity, rough, crude and overbearing. He married, three times, and fathered five children. Yet, he would disappear for days at a time, and when his wives would question his whereabouts, he invited them to kiss his fist or stare down the barrel of a handgun. All three wives were subject to the most heinously degrading treatment. This man also had little to do with his children, and treated them as their mothers' concern, not his. He engaged in innumerable types of self-destructive behaviors, such as heavy drinking, gambling and borderline criminal activity.

He only ever really talked to one of his daughters, and the things she tells of their conversations makes both her and me believe that his frequent absences were centered around anonymous homosexual encounters. We have both been trying to understand why it is that this man was so wantonly destructive of both his own and his family's lives. The only conclusion we have been able to come up with is that he was completely consumed by self-loathing as a result of his inability to reconcile his homosexual proclivity with the straight world around him. He tried to fit in, but doing so caused far too much pain and suffering for himself and those who loved him. Thus, I am convinced that had society been more tolerant of his homosexuality, he wouldn't have felt compelled to try to appear straight, and thus might not have caused all the emotional upheaval.

But, hey, that's my family. I'm sure nobody else's family has any similar tales. Surely this is a unique and isolated instance.

 Quote:
As it stands right now, the gay community does not have the political impetus for the remedies they seek, and are in fact quite in danger of marginalizing themselves with much of the public.[/b]
I am always fascinated by the dichotomy of your opinion on politics. On one hand, when it's convenient, you remind people that this is a Republic, not a Democracy, and that simple majority opinions are not political mandates. Yet, at other times, you seem to insist that the majority should rule with its values, and the minorities should just shut up and butt out. I detect a paradox here. Care to explain?

 Quote:
Lot of anger there, old son. Well, you've got the same pants to get glad in, that you got mad in, and right now, here's one board member that doesn't give a rolling red rat's rectum which side of the fence you fall on.[/b]
Not only is there no anger on my part, I actually feel a bit of sorrow. It saddens me to see an obviously intelligent man reduced to name-calling and crudeness in an attempt to defend an untenable position.

 Quote:
Lastly, society is painted in sweeping statements. It is a broad canvass, and I like to see a larger picture than most.[/b]
A classic case of desire not aligning with reality. You may believe you're seeing a broad picture, but it's more likely that your perspective is blocked by the blinders of the narrowness of your definitions and limitations of your experience. Thus, there are vast areas of the canvas that must be uncharted territory for you. Yet, you somehow feel compelled to opine on areas where your involvement is only marginally tangential, and certainly not personal.
Posted by: Toddler2

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 01:44 PM

Larry,

I didn't like the skit, but I have to agree with JackFrost on several points. While Kindergarden may be too young, my public school's sex education began in the 5th grade. That was not too early. I've helped deliver babies to 13 year old girls.

The one skit from cootie shots that you posted bothered me, for several reasons. I suspect I'd support many of the other skits.

No matter what you think, schools do not just teach reading, writing, and math. They also teach history, science, political theory, music, art, and hopefully, in doing so, they teach children to think.

Schools should try to expose children, in a safe way, to things they will experience and be faced with after school. That may be that after 8th grade, or after 22nd grade. No school that just teaches reading and math is worth attending. You know that. And while parents have the right to teach their kids intolerance, the public school system has the right to incorporate things to try to teach tolerance. This doesn't have to be social engineering, but it clearly will offend people who want to teach the opposite philosophy to their children.

Back to the skit, given it covers a sexual topic and has a value attached to it. It think that was wrong. I think the parents should have been given the option of opting/out even if that skit hadn't been part of the presentation, but if parents don't want their children to learn history, political thought, and social studies, they can home school them or find a private school. Most parents want their children to get the most out of school they possibly can.

Todd

PS) Earlier in this thread, I was as guilty of homosexism (making an assumption that someone is homosexual) as Jolly. Usually most of us are very heterosexist in our thinking, it's just playing the odds. This thread is an exception to that tendancy.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 02:10 PM

There is a saying..

"do not judge another man till you have walked a mile in his shoes"

Some of y'all need to do some walkin.
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 02:21 PM

Matt, thanks for sharing your story. As moving as it is, I dare say, it is not terribly uncommon. Wouldn't it be wonderful if all of those who are so quick to condemn homosexuality were similarly forced to reckon with their own homosexual brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, children, co-workers within their owns circles.
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 03:28 PM

This thing of saying, "Hey, based on what you say you must be gay?" is K-6 playground bully stuff.

Even if he is gay, so what?
Even if he is straight, so what?

Perusing his orientation does not reflect well on you.
His orientation is not relevant to the discussion.
Besides, being gay is okay so this is not the treat you intend it to be.
He has nothing to fear.

Remember the civil rights movement?
White people to supported it were called n***** lovers.

All this parenting and school talk brings to mind the battles over school integration.
Posted by: LadyElton

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 04:59 PM

The last pride parade I was in did not have NAMBLA there. I personally think that the pedo's of NAMBLA are disgusting and don't think they should be allowed to be in gay pride marches. I guess some think that they should be allowed because it's technically an 'alternative lifestyle.' Be that as it may, it's not one to be proud of. Pedophilia is a sickness and by associating with the gay community, the pride marches especially, NAMBLA makes people equate homosexuality and pedohilia. Pedohilia isn't an orientation. It's not about love, about being connected emotionally, spiritually. It's about having power over someone smaller and less powerful - a child. Most pedo's are heterosexual and have been abused themselves. (I'm not saying there aren't any gay pedo's because there are, but the vast majority are straight.) Instead of being proud of being pervs, the members of NAMBLA need psychiatric and psychological help.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 06:05 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SameKenny:


All this parenting and school talk brings to mind the battles over school integration. [/b]
Kenny.....children should be taught about sex when they are old enough to understand about biology. My kids have watch million 'nature' videos and the idea of mating is familiar and natural. Animals mate to reproduce and that is easy to understand... at least I would find it easy to explain in that context. I don't know how I would approach the subject of homosexuality. I'd like a year or two to mull that over.

The one gay man my children see regularly (and Kathy - he is a church organist BTW) would be mortified if they were to question his gayness.

To put things in perspective, I'm conservative about alot of things. I don't like music that tells a woman she'll get it in the butt. I don't let my kids see even PG 13 movies. I don't let them say trashy words. A play about cross-dressing seems a little 'out-there' to me. Shoot! I've only met one cross-dresser in my life, and I have hung around some wild people.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 08:09 PM

It's probably worth while pointing out that this "play" is all of 100 words or less and is only a tiny part of the greater production of "Cootie Shots". The play right before it in the book (200 words at best) is a conversation between two students, one a Muslim and one a Mormon.

Ariel, you'd like the one just before that, it's called "Bright Orange Fingernails" \:D It's based on a true story about 4 young children who paint their fingernails different colors. Two of the children are girls and two are boys. The play is about what happens when the father comes to pick up one of the boys. BTW, there are loads of straight men in NY who get manicures. And it is something that existed years before "Queer Eye For The Straight Guy" came on!

The play before that is called "At Your Age?!" and it's about age discrimination. The poem before that is about race, called "Chocolate Face". There's a play about a young girl in a wheelchair with cerebral palsy. Then there's a poem, "The Princess Petunia" about a princess who loves Violet instead of the prince her father has in mind. I like the way this one ends:

It warmed the king's heart, hearing Petunia's laughter,
And the two princesses lived happily ever after.
But the cherry on top of this chocolate-fudge sundae,
Was the king's proclamation, starting this Monday:
"All the peasants below and royals above
Are now free to marry whomever they love."


\:D

There's a play called "Matzoh", it's about being Jewish. There's "The Golden Rule" a dialogue between a young christian girl who explains the ashes on her forehead, a Jewish boy who explains his yarmulke, a sikh boy who explains his hair, his turban, and Guru Granth Sahib.

There are more plays and poems and songs about homosexuals, religion, ethnicity etc.

So although same-sex love figures in the production, it is not the focal point. There is no focal point other than diversity and tolerance of differences. I think it's unfair to hang "Cootie Shots" up by the thumbs for pushing a perverted agenda.
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 08:28 PM

Bernard, you can cover a cow pile with chocolate icing, and it will look like a cake. Much of it will be sweet and taste good. Keep digging however, and you find you're eating **** just the same.
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 08:47 PM

Larry, I really appreciate your sharing this thread with us. I had never heard of "Cootie Shots" before, and now that I have, I think I'll see if I can get our school system to arrange some performances. What a great idea - what a great way to teach kids tolerance and respect at an early age!

Here's their website.

Cootie shots - the play
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 09:03 PM

Ok. And I'd like to schedule a weekly session with your kids, to teach them about the Republican party, Conservatism, and patriotism. I want to do plays and skits that shows the superiority of that choice over the one you've given them, and let them know that it if they feel this political philosophy is more to their liking, they should ignore you and go with it, because you are tolerant and won't mind.
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 09:14 PM

Jack Frost,

What color does KathyK paint your nails?

\:D
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 09:31 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SameKenny:
This thing of saying, "Hey, based on what you say you must be gay?" is K-6 playground bully stuff.

Even if he is gay, so what?
Even if he is straight, so what?

Perusing his orientation does not reflect well on you.
His orientation is not relevant to the discussion.
Besides, being gay is okay so this is not the treat you intend it to be.
He has nothing to fear.

Remember the civil rights movement?
White people to supported it were called n***** lovers.

All this parenting and school talk brings to mind the battles over school integration. [/b]
No, it doesn't.

Don't take my word for it. Do a bit of googling and see how well the black community is reacting to the association between the Civil Rights movement, and the current activity in the gay community.

You may be surprised at what you read.

Or, all black people can be homophobic bigots, also.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 09:51 PM

There is no denying "Cootie Shots" is pushing an agenda. It's just that the adgenda is not corrupted or perverted and I see it as a way of promoting the "Golden Rule".

Frankly, Larry, I think you're over reacting. You're more than free to create your own production pushing your own agenda. There is, furthermore, a way in which Cootie Shots' adgenda differs from yours; it doesn't presume to be superior.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 09:51 PM

Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 09:59 PM

Posted by Jolly,

 Quote:
...In my case, faith helps. If you haven't tried it, I do recommend it. ...
I've tried it too, and my advice Matt G. is to question what you put your faith in. I'm not saying faith is bad, on the contrary, faith has gotten me through some of the roughest times. But be careful, faith can be blind.
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 10:45 PM

 Quote:
Bernard:
There is no denying "Cootie Shots" is pushing an agenda. It's just that the adgenda is not corrupted or perverted and I see it as a way of promoting the "Golden Rule".
[/b]
That's pretty much the summation, I agree:

"Cootie Shots" is pushing an agenda.

"Not corrupted or perverted" is your opinion.

"...a way of promoting the 'Golden Rule'" - is spin, because it is secondary as related to your stated premise : "Cootie Shots" is pushing an agenda."

Don't worry though Bernard. Some parent, like a KathyK, will decide for whatever reason that the play (or similar) should be presented to little children, based on being just. . . smarter than anyone else I guess. A school will refuse, because obviously the majority of parents will disagree, if this forum is any indication.

Then, the ACLU will be brought in (or similar), or better yet, someone like KathyK can pursue it on her own as a lawyer. And, the end result: the play will be shown, all kids will know that most parents are ****ed-off about this, and the whole point of the play will be turned on its head.

Kids are kids -- If they know their parents are ****ed-off about something, that perspective will carry over into the classroom as well as the playground and everywhere else. The message of accepting "diversity" will turn into name-calling and bullying as soon as the teachers are out of range, for any behavior any kid deems anywhere similar to what the behavior in the play is depicting, or the kid's interpretation of it all trying to guess what his/her parents meant at home.

The one mistake the gays are making in pushing their agenda via the children, is that what happens at home trumps what happens at school.[/b] KathyK and similarly inclined people can force the kids to look and listen to the play, but she can't force what is said in the home about the play.

So, I think I have changed my opinion. This play SHOULD be shown in schools everywhere, and let's see what happens. We can only imagine the discussions in millions of homes and you know what? This means of recruitment, or "Golden Rule" or whatever you want to call it, however you want to spin it, might well have the exact opposite effect than intended.

(the above edited, as the Piano World server is taking about 2 minutes to load a page tonight)
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 11:05 PM

There is, furthermore, a way in which Cootie Shots' adgenda differs from yours; it doesn't presume to be superior.[/b]


Oh to the contrary, Bernard. It presumes to be superior to me period. It is *based* on the belief that not only the average parent's views but the parents themselves are inferior to their socially engineered agendas.
Otherwise, there would be no need for the play to exist - the parents would be seen as capable of instructing their children properly with no other help needed.

Unless of course, there is yet *another* agenda......
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 11:15 PM

Some more facts about Cootie Shots (all emphases mine):

"Editors Norma Bowles and Mark E. Rosenthal, the founders of Fringe Benefits, spent two years collaborating with more than 500 elementary school teachers, parents, therapists, administrators, theater artists, visual artists and youth to create the richly illustrated paperback. Cootie Shots contains 50 pieces lasting two to 15 minutes, which may be used in the classroom. "

--Not exactly a group of homosexuals, although the originators of the idea do promote equality for homosexuals, they saw fit to include a wide group of people in the creation of "Cootie Shots". I wonder if those on the right would have been so inclusive.

It was shown at 2 schools in California.

"Students, parents, and educators throughout California and in other states have enthusiastically received the Cootie Shots show, but a small group of Novato parents objected to the show, "

--The suit against it was brought by 8 parents. Not only that, but the show was welcomed by many parents:

"A Novato parent group and a Los Angeles-based children’s theater company filed a motion today in federal court to intervene as defendants in the case Citizens for Parental Rights v. Novato Unified School District. "

--I also think it's pretty interesting that the United Church of Christ finds value in Cootie Shots: OWL


It sounds to me like a lot of noise is being generated by a small group of people.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 11:18 PM

I think when you have 1st graders going around calling other children "faggots" it is a clear indication that some parents are not capable of doing their job well.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/21/04 11:30 PM

The amazing thing is that we're discussing such a piece might even get within a MILE of our children.

Let kids see trash like this and they'd all be crying about their 20 years of analysis. (I know such things--I was a child too. ;\) )

Parents know what's best for their kids--but what's remarkable to me is how much freedom they give to people with vast and evil agendas to propagandize their kids. Parents--GIVE their children to these public school systems and then wonder why the kids are unhappy or can't learn. And they know better. But most parents don't have the self confidence to make proper decisions for their families--why, they learned how to make decisions in government schools.

Teachers and administrators in government run schools are just as psycho as mail carriers in the government run postal system. That have deep and dark and secret problems. Columbine wasn't any different than any of the shoot 'um ups that happen in post offices.

This is a ridiculous conversation, to even discuss kids seeing things like this. My kids won't come within a mile of such crap--they're in a private school.
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 02:50 AM

TomAsterisk
 Quote:
was [/b]
Tense? ;\)

Actually, related to original issue. I don't get it. In our school system I am continually being asked to sign things giving (or not) my permission for my son to do the most mundane things (example, see "Fantome of the Opera" watch movies one step above PG 13 on field trips, use the Internet at school). He's almost 16!

Certainly they make me sign off his sex-ed material in advance (and I ask to see the books too).

Good, bad, indifferent - or a combination - don't other school districts have these rules so that parents who disagree with particular content, get their kids excused? I can even sign my son out of routine assessment testing (and I've been on the point of doing it often, because of the tremendous loss of instructional time).

As a matter of fact, more than once my son's entire class has been unable to watch a given movie - say a classic Shakespeanean film - because even one parent objected! And often because of a single four letter word.

Ariel
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 07:49 AM

 Quote:
Posted by Ariel: Tense? [/b]
Damn! Ariel, you got me there. \:D
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 08:11 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
don't other school districts have these rules so that parents who disagree with particular content, get their kids excused? [/b]
Yes, Ariel, you are exactly correct, and this is the problem and why parents are upset. From back on page 3 of this thread:

gryphon:
Another thing that the defenders of Cootie Shots ignore is the fact that the schools are showing this to elementary school students in violation of the opt-out forms that parents had previously signed to excuse their children from exposure to any material dealing with sex, morality, or religion. They also didn't give prior notice to the parents or allow parents to review the material to be presented beforehand, all California state education code requirements.[/b]

Unfortunately you have others who don't give a damn about the parents:

Jack Frost:
I believe that all kids at a very early age should learn that some men love each other and some women love each other in the same way that mommy and daddy love each other and that that is ok.[/b]
and
[Mark Rosenthal, one of the original authors]"I AM BURNING! Norma [Norma Bowles, co-author] just told me that those stupid [obscene noun] are at it again. . . [Obscene adjective] parents are posting signs around the school we're visiting on Monday, urging people to keep their kids home."[/b]

A child can be taught about discrimination and tolerance by discussing people of different races or handicaps for example. Sex and homosexuality are not age-appropriate topics for little children. In addition, parents have the right, recognized and backed up by the state, to have direct control and approval over what their children are taught with respect to certain topics that might violate their religious beliefs, etc. It is unfortunate that the social engineers and agenda-driven liberals don't care.
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 08:42 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
Some more facts about Cootie Shots (all emphases mine):

"Editors Norma Bowles and Mark E. Rosenthal, the founders of Fringe Benefits, spent two years collaborating with more than 500 elementary school teachers, parents, therapists, administrators, theater artists, visual artists and youth to create the richly illustrated paperback. Cootie Shots contains 50 pieces lasting two to 15 minutes, which may be used in the classroom. "

--Not exactly a group of homosexuals, although the originators of the idea do promote equality for homosexuals, they saw fit to include a wide group of people in the creation of "Cootie Shots". I wonder if those on the right would have been so inclusive.

It was shown at 2 schools in California.

"Students, parents, and educators throughout California and in other states have enthusiastically received the Cootie Shots show, but a small group of Novato parents objected to the show, "

--The suit against it was brought by 8 parents. Not only that, but the show was welcomed by many parents:

"A Novato parent group and a Los Angeles-based children’s theater company filed a motion today in federal court to intervene as defendants in the case Citizens for Parental Rights v. Novato Unified School District. "

--I also think it's pretty interesting that the United Church of Christ finds value in Cootie Shots: OWL


It sounds to me like a lot of noise is being generated by a small group of people. [/b]
Agreed. I think what we're seeing is a knee-jerk reaction to the most controversial part the play (not coincidentally), plucked out of context; i.e. "OMG!!! A boy in high heels! TRASH, TRASH, TRASH!!!" I admit, it seemed very strange to me until I explored the links Bernard posted to see what it was all about. If those of you harsh critics would do the same rather than relying on your reaction to the initial post, you might feel differently about it.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 09:12 AM

I believe I have made direct reference to other things in Cootie Shots besides Larry's initial skit, kathyk. And this was prior to Bernard's bothering to check it out further, too. And maybe you can explain to me what this has to do with Darwinism.

Oh, wait, I get it. Survival of the species...homosexuals will not procreate? Am I close?
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 09:16 AM

They signify closing one's mind without gathering all the relevant info: Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. NAANANANANANA - my ears are plugged - I'm not listening!!!!

I apologize to you Gryphon if you looked deeper.
Posted by: JBryan

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 09:32 AM

I have no children but I think I can speak for my parents when I say they probably would not have let me within a country mile of something called "cootie shots".
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 09:42 AM

 Quote:
Posted by Bernard "Editors Norma Bowles and Mark E. Rosenthal, the founders of Fringe Benefits, spent two years collaborating with more than 500 elementary school teachers, parents, therapists, administrators, theater artists, visual artists and youth to create the richly illustrated paperback. Cootie Shots contains 50 pieces lasting two to 15 minutes, which may be used in the classroom. "

--Not exactly a group of homosexuals,[/b]
I don't know about that. Therapists, theater artists, visual artists, anybody that would call their company "Fringe Benefits" and any grown up that could actually sit down and write a "play" called "Cootie Shots" featuring a boy wearing his mother's high heels for a bunch of 12 year olds--I'd have my doubts about. \:D
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 09:49 AM

education tax money - How do you spend it when there's so much ...?
Posted by: DT

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 10:07 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. NAANANANANANA - my ears are plugged - I'm not listening!!!!
[/b]
Maureen Dowd could have a heyday with that quote from you.

I thing she said, "Context. We don't need no stinkin' context." but I may be wrong. \:D

I understood your point but if we had a boy singing a song about all the educational things young boys do and all the benefits they provide to society who then threw in one line about being king and beheading all the f****ts, a giant fuss would be raised about it. Selectivity is not an exclusive trait of those trying to prevent dilution of moral values.
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 10:07 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rvaga:
Jack Frost,

What color does KathyK paint your nails?

\:D [/b]
She just slaps me when I bite them........

jf
Posted by: DT

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 10:08 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
education tax money - How do you spend it when there's so much ...? [/b]
Fulfilling federal and state mandates
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 10:18 AM

Agreed. I think what we're seeing is a knee-jerk reaction to the most controversial part the play (not coincidentally), plucked out of context; i.e. "OMG!!! A boy in high heels! TRASH, TRASH, TRASH!!!" I admit, it seemed very strange to me until I explored the links Bernard posted to see what it was all about. If those of you harsh critics would do the same rather than relying on your reaction to the initial post, you might feel differently about it. [/b]

In other words, because *you* think that you've "researched" this beyond what I did, then you have the ultimate truth on the matter, and I'm just an ignorant hillbilly conservative who reacts at a simple minded level far below what you're capable of, someone to be dismissed with a well placed chuckle and a knowing nod of your far more intellectual head.

I've got news for you. I am just as intelligent, just as well educated, and just as sophisticated as you. I cannot and will not be dismissed with such a shallow, smug attitude of superiority.

Cootie shots is just the tip of the iceberg. Our schools are under attack, and the goal is to indoctrinate our children. If you think that I started this thread with nothing more than Cootie Shots as proof of this, then it is *you* that is making a knee jerk reaction, not using an open mind, and thinking in a simple minded fashion. And in your delusional comfort zone where you are the "intellectual sophisticate" and I am simply a "knee jerk reactionary" who isn't capable of thinking as deeply as you, you have severely underestimated me, and overestimated yourself.

More to come as it fits into my schedule.
Posted by: John Andrew

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 11:03 AM

I have made a few comments in this thread but have yet to comment on whether I think children should be see this program as part of their school curriculum.

Personally, I do not like the idea of this program or anything of the myriad of special programs that are out there being brought into elementary schools. Not because I do not approve of what is being presented, but because I am opposed to all of this sort of peripheral education for the children. I do not like an outside group teaching social values. I do not like an outside group teaching sexual values. I do not like an outside group teaching cultural value. I do not like an outside group teaching religious values.

I do not like such things as Black History Month, Christmas Programs, prayer in school or anything else which divides the children or emphasizes a division in a pluralistic society. The divisions are there. The kids see them and know them. The schools need not emphasize them -- even if the intent is benign. More often than not, when one listens to the children afterwards, these programs backfire as often as they succeed.

Yes, the children should be taught tolerance. More importantly, they should be taught acceptance. But it needs to imbue all of what happens in school as it must in all of society. It should not be a special subject matter or presented through some sort of special program, month or anything of that sort.

If the children are attacking other children who are different (as they will), this becomes a learning situation. If within a subject matter, such as history, geography or whatever, there is discussion of people from different backgrounds, cultures, whatever, acceptance of these people should be taught. If the sports minded kids are attacking those who are more intellectually or artistically inclined, this is a basis on which to teach proper values of tolerance and acceptance. If those who achieve more or get higher grades or whatever act as if this makes them better human beings than the other children, a learning possibility develops.

But I think it all should be within the context of the normal educational process and the normal social environment of the school.

The other side of the problem is also unacceptable to me, the inherent teaching of intolerance and non-acceptance. In too many curricula and school environments, differences are not accepted and children are indirectly taught that some people are inferior to others. Too many schools celebrate sports victories but not academic, artistic or scientific victories. History and literature are taught with a strong euro-centric base. Education and the entire school experience must be value/culture/lifestyle neutral.

I have raised (almost finished, thank God) three children. One has completed college, one is in college, one is still in high school. I have never liked these types of programs because I think they take away from what I believe the children need to be focused on. They also tend to define problems the children do not necessarily have, but become problems as soon as the adults emphasize them as problems for the children.

A case in point was the discussion we had a couple of months ago about the 7 year old who told his friend his mother had a female lover. This friend told his parents and all hell broke loose. No doubt, the two seven year olds had resolved this in a seven year old manner. But the adults stepped in and made it something it never should have been for children that young.

Another example. I recall one of my sons having to do an oral report on the biography of some famous person -- sixth or seventh grade I think it was. In his research he found out this person was homosexual. He thought it was pertinent and intended to include it in his oral report. Because part of the assignment for this was to teach the children how to prepare for oral reports, he had to hand in an outline. The teacher struck this from his presentation because she felt it was not appropriate.

This is the type of intolerance and non-acceptance that needs to be removed from the schools. One sentence uttered by one child in one oral report was not going to damage any child or undermine any parent's authority -- but it might have helped some child in a couple of more years when he/she was grappling with accepting his/her own homosexuality.

One thing I have found in my children's education is that the children usually see through agenda ridden curricula really quickly and judge it as such, especially as the children get older. I have yet to see one of these programs have much impact on the children anyway. The moment the program is done and any follow-up discussion/activity has taken place, the kids move on to what they find as more important things -- like who hurt their feelings, what is going to be on the next test, complaining about having to read ANOTHER book and do ANOTHER book report or whining about how hard long division is and why do they have to learn it because they will never use it in their life anyway, blah, blah, blah.

rvaga says a few posts up that what happens at home and the attitudes at home are the most important. This is true. It does not matter what the schools teach or what programs they bring in. If the same values are not taught at home, the school program is meaningless. The schools can teach tolerance all they want; but if the home teaches intolerance, the children will be intolerant.

apple says "education tax money - How do you spend it when there's so much ...?" I do not know if this type of program results because there is too much money. However, her point of determining educational priorities is an important one. In my opinion, if there is money for such extra curricular activities, then let the kids go to a museum, bring in a special program on the orchestra or art, or some other special curriculum that underlines education, not social values.

Tolerance and acceptance must be the mindset of all school adminstrators and all teachers -- and it must be incorporated in the entire school environent. But it should not be a special curriculum or a special program. It simply should be how things are at school.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 11:25 AM

JA:
...sixth or seventh grade I think it was. In his research he found out this person was homosexual. He thought it was pertinent [/b]

I didn't even know what a homosexual was in sixth grade or that the word (or people) even existed.
Posted by: DT

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 11:29 AM

 Quote:
JA said:
Yes, the children should be taught tolerance. More importantly, they should be taught acceptance.[/b]
More importantly, they should be taught to discriminate. Not all things should be tolerated. Not all things should be accepted. Learning which is which is what is what.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 11:45 AM

very nice... JA.. you are so thoughtful sometimes.
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 02:51 PM

gryphon:
 Quote:
JA:
...sixth or seventh grade I think it was. In his research he found out this person was homosexual. He thought it was pertinent

I didn't even know what a homosexual was in sixth grade or that the word (or people) even existed.[/b]
I'm just remembering that when my second son was in elementary school, right around fourth grade, "gay" (later spelled "gheigh")became a put-down.

It's still used as an adjective for just about everything the kids want to describe in a negative way. We're talking High School now. And I'm still having a hell of a time eradicating it from his vocabulary. I THINK, thiough, that it's finally penetrating that, like the similar use of "retarded", it might seriously hurt the feelings of someone hearing it. A someone who might feel it applies to him or her, or a family member.

Things have changed, gryphon. I too don't EVER recalling hearing the word (or an derogatory equivalent like "fag") in school. Perhaps part of it is that I (later) went to an all-girls' high school - though we talked like Marines. Maybe it's more of a "guy" put-down. "Fatso" or "fatty" or "scag" were the dreaded words in my recollection.

The funny thing is, when I asked my son about the word "gay" when he first started using it as an insult - as expected - neither he (nor his friends) had the faintest foggiest idea what it meant!

Ariel
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 02:53 PM

Remember when we used to call each other queer? I was reading my senior yearbook, and almost every little note/signature included "You are so Queer" \:D .

I didn't know what gay was till I was 19!. Of course I had my first beer at 18, and me second at 19.. (Won't tell what happened when I turned 21). :p
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 02:58 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
I think when you have 1st graders going around calling other children "faggots" it is a clear indication that some parents are not capable of doing their job well. [/b]
While I PERSONALLY disagree with the term used by these first graders, as an American I would fight to the death to defend these kids' Freedom of Speech! \:D
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 03:07 PM

We called each other queer too, but we darn well knew what it meant and it was meant to be the utlimate put-down, even when in jest. I had one best friend throughout high school. We bucked the establishment with our dress and actions, including rejecting the cool kids by openly eschewing drugs and alcohol, and we were a tight little unit. Well, certain cool kids were jealous of us, because we were cooler than them in a kooky way and invulnerable. Since we were pretty impervious to the meanies, they ultimately started a rumor that we were gay. I remember being utterly shocked at the thought, but then I became sort of proud of it and wore my quasi-gayness proudly. It certainly gave me a little taste of the intolerance.
Posted by: Improviso

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 03:31 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
I think when you have 1st graders going around calling other children "faggots" it is a clear indication that some parents are not capable of doing their job well. [/b]
While I PERSONALLY disagree with the term used by these first graders, as an American I would fight to the death to defend these kids' Freedom of Speech! \:D [/b]
Right you are Tom. I will stand with you to defend your children's freedom of speech, YOUR freedom of speech, MY freedom of speech, and my RIGHT to not listen to ANYONE tell me how I should raise MY children. Mind your own business, thank-you very much. YOU (read that as anyone who thinks they know better than I how my children should be raised) raise your children how you see fit and I shall do the same. I won't pass judgement on you, and I expect the same in return.
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 04:04 PM

John Andrew,

Very nice post, I agree with you 100%.

(Don't worry, you will stop shuddering in a few minutes. . .)

\:D
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 04:08 PM

 Quote:
Posted by Improvisio: I won't pass judgement on you, and I expect the same in return. [/b]
Well played my improvising friend, except for the last note, it's ring is sour to my ear. You can't pass judgment on me, but I can pass judgment on YOU.

You see, I'm part of the intellecual elite. \:\) I live in NYC, (ain't talking Brooklyn here.) I travel in sophisticated circles. I make my money from other's hard work. I lunch. If my liberal neighbor down the hall who does the same and writes for the NYTimes could judge, why not little ol' me? \:D

You are such a girl.
Posted by: Improviso

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 04:33 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
Posted by Improvisio: I won't pass judgement on you, and I expect the same in return. [/b]
Well played my improvising friend, except for the last note, it's ring is sour to my ear. You can't pass judgment on me, but I can pass judgment on YOU.
[/b]
Thou doest mortally wound me Tom (with a K).

But seriously, that's my point exactly. The old "Do as I say, not as I do". If a liberal had to take their own medicine they dish out, they'd choke to death on it.
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 04:36 PM

Improviso,

You're not addressing the Forum's foremost liberal in Mr. K above, you know (chortle).

Ariel
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 04:43 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Improviso,

You're not addressing the Forum's foremost liberal in Mr. K above, you know (chortle).

Ariel [/b]
Alas, sweet, sweet Ariel, Improvisio does address the Forum's most Liberal poster, it's just that my liberality is that of the 17th Century variety.
\:\)
Posted by: minime

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 04:45 PM

uh oh wrong thread
Posted by: Improviso

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 04:50 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Improviso,

You're not addressing the Forum's foremost liberal in Mr. K above, you know (chortle).

Ariel [/b]
Yes, I know. Tom and I could probably debate for hours, who is the more conservative of the two of us. I was just having some fun with him, as he was with me.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 05:05 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Improviso:
If a liberal had to take their own medicine [/b]
Ha! You aren't fooling me, not one little bit. Your pronoun doesn't agree with its antecedent subject, a sure sign you are either a liberal PC weenie or a female who's afraid of hurting another's feelings. In either case, this staunch right-wing machismo persona is just a front.

Have I got it right? \:D
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 05:06 PM

 Quote:
Posted by the Improv: But seriously, that's my point exactly. The old "Do as I say, not as I do". If a liberal had to take their own medicine they dish out, they'd choke to death on it. [/b]
Well spoken my valued and true friend! Let's hope it will be slow and painful. Let's hope we see some suffering and agony.

NO! We're better than that. Let's state opinions, but never without listening. Let's speak freedom, but never without respect. But most of all let's learn love and its value, but never at the expense of truth.

It's been my philosophy on this Forum, I have served it imperfectly in my time here, but, my heart is true. My heart is willing.

Take my hand.
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 05:12 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Improviso,

You're not addressing the Forum's foremost liberal in Mr. K above, you know (chortle).

Ariel [/b]
Alas, sweet, sweet Ariel, Improvisio does address the Forum's most Liberal poster, it's just that my liberality is that of the 17th Century variety.
\:\) [/b]
CHORTLE CHORTLE - as in the Marquis de Sade!
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 05:22 PM

 Quote:
Posted by kathy with a k: CHORTLE CHORTLE - as in the Marquis de Sade![/b]
Ouch! You know me too well, my beauty. ;\)
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 05:36 PM

Quoting Larry:
 Quote:
If on the other hand he said "I want to take a room full of 5 year old children and talk to them about my sexual preferences and tell them that they should be tolerant of it, and that if they feel like being like me it's ok", I would call him a pervert and let him know then and there that if he tries to talk to *my* kids like that he is in for a *really* rough ride. By the same token, if a heterosexual male said "I want to take a room full of 5 year old children and tell them what my wife and I like to do in bed and that if they feel like doing that too it's ok", I will call *him* a pervert, and let him know that he too is in for a really rough ride if he tries to talk to my 5 kid about things like that.him know that he too is in for a really rough ride if he tries to talk to my 5 kid about things like that.
Larry, this is perfect example of why I think you are over-reacting.

1) "Cootie Shots" is not about a bunch of adults talking to children about their sexual preferences. The main actors in the skits are children. Children are watching other children do different things.
2) No one has said "if they feel like being like me it's ok". What is being said is "if you see yourself in this actor" it is OK. You are inserting choice where choice doesn't exist.
3) Not one of these skits has a homosexual or heterosexual telling the children what he/she does in bed. The skits are not about sex.
4) Even the skit at the top of the thread doesn't say you must accept this. It only presents.

I consider you one of the more level-headed of the right-leaning group in this thread. But your constant exaggarations lead me to think you have an agenda. It is clear "Cootie Shots" is not teaching sex. It is not preaching--like I said the actors are children themselves. If it is not teaching sex, what are you objecting to? (Something I asked in my very first post, BTW, and don't believe I've received an answer to.) It sounds like you are objecting to the teaching of tolerance. If this is the case, are you sure you're as tolerant as you make yourself out to be.

I'll bet 10 to 1 "Cootie Shots" is phazing some grown ups a hell of a lot more than it is phazing the children.

 Quote:
If your goal is to teach tolerance, focus your energy where it is acceptable, and where it will do the most good - teach the parents how to parent...
Exactly. I couldn't agree with you more and if you can show how that could be done, I'd say fine, we don't need to teach tolerance in school. Would that it were possible. This thread makes it abundantly clear that many parents are unteachable.
Posted by: EHpianist

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 05:43 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
If your nephew, as an adult, simply mentioned he was a homosexual, I would continue to talk with him in the same polite manner as before. His sexual preference is of no concern to me, and not the topic of our discussion. If he *made* his homosexuality a topic of discussion, I would tell him I didn't care about his sexual preferences one way or the other, and could we go back to talking about whatever we had been discussing beforehand. If he reach for my crotch and asked me for sex, I'd put him in the morgue.[/b]
So if a female whom you are not sexually interested in solicited you for sex and grabbed your crotch, would you also put her "in the morgue"? I seriously doubt it. You see Larry, despite all your claims to the contrary, your "acceptance" of gays is a joke. It is akin to having a racist tell a black man that he doesn't mind his blackness as long as he paints himself white. Sure the racist knows he's black, they can even talk about his blackness, but keep any demonstration of blackness at home and don't ****ing show it or "I'll put you in the morgue".

I'm not saying you should sleep with either of them, but I beg you to please think seriously about why one would cause you to react so much more violently than the other. What is so different about the two solicitations other than gender? Why can't they be dealt in the same manner of "I'm not interested"? What makes you feel so threatened about a man soliciting you as opposed to a woman?

Larry, I respect your opinion on many subjects but don't try to insult my intelligence by expecting me to believe you don't have a problem with gays.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
Posted by: EHpianist

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 06:05 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by John Andrew:
They also tend to define problems the children do not necessarily have, but become problems as soon as the adults emphasize them as problems for the children. [/b]
JA, this was a fantastic post and has given me much food for thought. Reminded me of my first experience feeling what it was like to live in a society where race was an issue. I was raised at home in Puerto Rico by my parents and a black woman who lived with us (and still lives with my parents) who has been like a second mother to me, she has been with my family since I was 6 weeks old, she made sure I went with her to church every Sunday while I was growing up, she made sure I was respectful to others, she is kind, reserved and has always loved me like her own daughter, really is an amazing woman. Also, Puerto Ricans being the mixed race that they are I was lucky that until after I graduated from highschool the thought of different races had never even crossed my mind, people were people and my friends were my friends, all colors.

When I arrived in Boston for college I was told things like "don't go into that neighborhood, it's bad, mostly blacks" I would watch television and would see most murders were in black neighborhoods, by blacks. Even among the blacks there was a different type of attitude than I had known, certainly more confrontational. Within a few weeks of living in the US I found myself getting on a bus and thinking, "Oh look a free seat, I'll sit here...but wait, there's a free seat next to that black person over there, if I don't sit there maybe he'll think I'm racist...but now he's seen me vacillate so if I do sit there he'll think I'm doing it out of pity"... I was shocked at my reaction. Eventually I sat down next to the black guy for fear of seeming racist. The point is that I had been surrounded by black friends and parental figures my entire childhood and that thought process had never occurred in me. Clearly other people's problems had suddenly become my own.

So JA, your post really has given me much to think about and to reconsider. Thank you.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 06:17 PM

Yes, that is something to be considered. If the parents are fear- and/or hate- filled, does it do more harm trying to expose their children to the real world? There is nothing that would make me sadder than making a situation even worse for a child. In some households, I can see the the skit above could make a child uncomfortable because the home is filled with intolerance. In this case, what to do?

On the other hand, how do we ever break the cycle of bigotry and violence against those that are different if not by trying to teach children when they are young?
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 06:26 PM

John Andrews, I read your thread also, but if you don't mind my say-so, it sounds a little idealistic.

 Quote:
If within a subject matter, such as history, geography or whatever, there is discussion of people from different backgrounds, cultures, whatever, acceptance of these people should be taught.
How far do you think a teacher would get if he told his class that the homosexuality of Alexander the Great, Michaelangelo, Leonardo, and the inifinitely long list of historical homosexuals should be accepted? He'd probably be fired by the end of the week.

It's no wonder groups like Fringe Benefits crop up. The door is shut in all directions.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 06:35 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
"Cootie Shots" is not about a bunch of adults talking to children about their sexual preferences.[/b]
Cootie Shots was co-authored by homosexuals Norma Bowles and Mark Rosenthal. (It was expanded on later). The skit Larry posted was about a cross-dressing boy who wanted to be a girl. Another skit from Cootie Shots I mentioned had Rapunzel in a homosexual relationship with another girl. (One 3rd-grade girl, after seeing Cootie Shots, asked her father if she was a lesbian because she liked girls better than boys). In the skit you mentioned it spoke of maricones. Now maybe my kids wouldn't understand this, being from the midwest, but kids in California or Texas or Arizona would since maricone means homosexual. So don't even attempt to say that Cootie Shots has nothing to do with "sexual preferences."
 Quote:
Not one of these skits has a homosexual or heterosexual telling the children what he/she does in bed.[/b]
Do you think they have to talk in graphic detail about anal plugs before you think the line has been crossed when speaking to little boys and girls? Damnit Bernard, have you no shame whatsoever?!
 Quote:
If it is not teaching sex, what are you objecting to? [/b]
It is teaching alternative sexual situations, and the objection is that it directly contradicts almost all religious teaching, including catholic, protestant, and I believe muslim. And as such is prohibited from being presented to children without their parents' consent and opportunity to review the material beforehand.
 Quote:
(Something I asked in my very first post, BTW, and don't believe I've received an answer to.)[/b]
Then you need to pay attention since it has been mentioned numerous times already.
 Quote:
are you sure you're as tolerant as you make yourself out to be.[/b]
Although I can't speak with authority for others, I do not hesitate to say that neither Larry nor Jolly nor kathyk nor Ariel nor bcarey nor I would say that we are tolerant of our children being taught anything we disapprove of.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 06:45 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by EHpianist:
if a female whom you are not sexually interested in solicited you for sex and grabbed your crotch, would also you put her "in the morgue"? [/b]
Yeah, Larry, now that Elena mentions it, what was really betgween you and the female (I think) below?
[img]http://members.aol.com/larryinatlanta/myhomepage/1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US[/img]
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 06:59 PM

Good grief, is it worth it!??!

Gryphon,

I SAID:
"Cootie Shots" is not about a bunch of ADULTS talking to CHILDREN about their sexual preferences.
Larry was insinuating that adult homosexuals were going in and preaching to these kids. They are not. I understand perfectly well that some of these skits are about children who have what current society would label as "unacceptable" behaviors.

I very much doubt that the young children Larry is talking about understand the intimate details of sex. And if they do, then by no means are they too young to experience "Cootie Shots".

I believe the real concern should be, is "Cootie Shots" too much for children who are not yet sexually mature. Since the skits are not sexually explicit, and only present "different" behavior, I don't think they pose a great problem. If I were a parent I would welcome and be thankful for the opportunity to explain and clarify that some people in this world are different.

No, I'm not ashamed, I celebrate my existence, I rejoice in what G*d has given me. For you it's all about sex. Nothing but sex. Sounds like an abnormal obsession to me.

 Quote:
And as such is prohibited from being presented to children without their parents' consent ...
I will agree with that.

The question was directed to Larry, thank you very much.

 Quote:
Although I can't speak with authority for others, I do not hesitate to say that neither Larry nor Jolly nor kathyk nor I would say that they are tolerant of their children being taught anything they disapprove of.
That's a different matter.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 07:03 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
"Cootie Shots" is not about a bunch of adults talking to children about their sexual preferences.[/b]
Cootie Shots was co-authored by homosexuals Norma Bowles and Mark Rosenthal. (It was expanded on later). The skit Larry posted was about a cross-dressing boy who wanted to be a girl. Another skit from Cootie Shots I mentioned had Rapunzel in a homosexual relationship with another girl. (One 3rd-grade girl, after seeing Cootie Shots, asked her father if she was a lesbian because she liked girls better than boys). In the skit you mentioned it spoke of maricones. Now maybe my kids wouldn't understand this, being from the midwest, but kids in California or Texas or Arizona would since maricone means homosexual. So don't even attempt to say that Cootie Shots has nothing to do with "sexual preferences."
 Quote:
Not one of these skits has a homosexual or heterosexual telling the children what he/she does in bed.[/b]
Do you think they have to talk in graphic detail about anal plugs before you think the line has been crossed when speaking to little boys and girls? Damnit Bernard, have you no shame whatsoever?!
 Quote:
If it is not teaching sex, what are you objecting to? [/b]
It is teaching alternative sexual situations, and the objection is that it directly contradicts almost all religious teaching, including catholic, protestant, and I believe muslim. And as such is prohibited from being presented to children without their parents' consent and opportunity to review the material beforehand.
 Quote:
(Something I asked in my very first post, BTW, and don't believe I've received an answer to.)[/b]
Then you need to pay attention since it has been mentioned numerous times already.
 Quote:
are you sure you're as tolerant as you make yourself out to be.[/b]
Although I can't speak with authority for others, I do not hesitate to say that neither Larry nor Jolly nor kathyk nor Ariel nor bcarey nor I would say that they are tolerant of their children being taught anything they disapprove of. [/b]
EXCELLENT post gryphon.

Bernard: take another 20 years of analysis and come back and report what you find.

 Quote:
Posted by Bernard: I don't think they pose a great problem. If I were a parent I would welcome and be thankful for the opportunity to explain and clarify that some people in this world are different.[/b]
That would, of course be your plan "B". It's my plan "A" and I would say, NO THANKS.
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 07:05 PM

You know, I think that lady was in my office the other day. She came in with her toothless step-Pa and long gray-hair pony-tailed Ma with Alzheimers and her brother - who actually was amazingly normal looking. I'm serious - her face nearly stopped me in my tracks! Step-Pa was changing his will to include his 5 step kids but cut out his own. I met with him only, just to be sure. And, as I was going through the names of the 5 step-kids I was asking where each lived. When I came to the last son, he paused, and said, "He's in federal prison." I always take a pic of my clients to put in the file. He looked like one who might get a little testy about having his photo taken. I knew he had been in the Navy, so I smiled and said he could take off his shirt and show his tatoos. Boy, did he have a big toothless laugh over that. He did give me a call the next day to let me know he'd had 2nd thoughts about including the boy in prison - how much money does one really need in the can?

The moral: Watch out whose photos you post in jest - it might be someone's step-daughter.
Posted by: JBryan

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 07:08 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by EHpianist:
if a female whom you are not sexually interested in solicited you for sex and grabbed your crotch, would also you put her "in the morgue"? [/b]
Yeah, Larry, now that Elena mentions it, what was really betgween you and the female (I think) below?
[img]http://members.aol.com/larryinatlanta/myhomepage/1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US[/img] [/b]
Looks like Frankenstein in drag.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 07:11 PM

Just a little notice: I don't think I'll be continuing in this thread much longer because I suspect it could go 'round and 'round for quite a long time. It's becoming a drain. Not to mention the incessant interruption of irreverent irrelevancies.

If I were independently wealthy (i.e., didn't have to work), and had more time, perhaps.

In the meantime--Hey! Go see "Cootie Shots" ! I heard it was great, especially for adults.

\:D
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 07:15 PM

 Quote:
Posted by Bernard: In the meantime--Hey! Go see "Cootie Shots" ! I heard it was great. [/b]
Just keep anyone under 18 away from it. \:D
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 07:24 PM

Sorry if I was being irreverant Bernard. You know I support you completely (at least I hope you do) and I would love to see it and wouldn't hesitate for one nanosecond before having my 8 year old see.

One thing that really struck me, (and I know it's been mentioned already, but believe it merits repeating)was how completely asexual almost all of the content is. It's about tolerance not sex. If the piece about the boy in high heels. Who's gleaning sexuality from that? I have a nephew and know of a couple other boys who have loved pink and liked to dress up in girls clothing. Because their parents were tolerant and open-minded, this behavior was not discouraged and they were allowed to play it out. And, frankly I doubt that it has had any bearing on their ultimate sexuality. But one thing is certain, they should not have to bear taunts from other kids or be called a girl because they prefer the color pink or like to play dress-up. That, to me, was what the skit was all about.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 07:30 PM

kathyk, you are by no means included in my remarks. I think your post above was an appropriate response. And thank you for the support. In fact, I'd like to thank everyone who voiced support last week when I was suddenly personally attacked by a complete stranger. Thank you very much. You know who you are.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 07:41 PM

Bernard, for what it's worth, I don't think you were attacked by a complete stranger. But I could be wrong.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 08:29 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
In fact, I'd like to thank everyone who voiced support last week when I was suddenly personally attacked by a complete stranger. Thank you very much. You know who you are. [/b]
Dear Bernard,

Yea, I know, It's me. Big suprise.

I understand that life is complicated. There's hurt and pain and suffering. Sometimes for reasons, sometimes for no reasons that we can understand at all. We are given this life to live and we do the best with what we have. It's not perfect, but it's all we have.

The best we can do is brave the challenges we are given and find some happiness in overcoming them. But most of all we must be true to ourselves, to whom and what we are. We my friend, have different opinions on just about every issue we could imagine. Nothing personal in all that for me, but I do like and I would hope you'd like me.

Unfortunately, you take everything personal, and I mean nothing personal--not the best scenario to make friends with one another. I'm sometimes rude and over the top when I make my points: hay, I just privately apologized to gryphon, whom I disagree with about NOTHING. Was rude to him. That's who I am. Self assured and spoiled (and that would be self spoiled.)

I'm not always nice, and I can be as sensitive as all get out when it suits me, but I wouldn't count on it happening to often.

You're a decent guy. We may not ever be friends, but I wish you the best.

We are on different roads, Bernard. Godspeed and safe journey on your way.

Tom
Posted by: Toddler2

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 10:31 PM

I can't post. Just read Tom's post and I'm too feklempt to keep typing.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/22/04 11:50 PM

Aack! Colin Quinn is talking about this book right now on Tough Crowd!



This show's audience seems to be predominantly populated by liberals, yet one of the liberals on here just said that he's tired of the homosexuals pushing their agenda in his face like Jehovah's Witnesses and he got a rousing vocal ovation from the audience like I've never heard before!
Posted by: Dwain Lee

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 12:01 AM

This Forum would be almost a complete waste of time if it weren't for irreverent irrelevancies.
Posted by: Dwain Lee

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 12:02 AM

Or irrelevant irreverencies.
Posted by: Dwain Lee

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 12:03 AM

And just as irrelevant, this post, just so I can claim post #300 in the thread.

Doh! It's #301!
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 12:15 AM

Yeah, Larry, now that Elena mentions it, what was really betgween you and the female (I think) below? [/b]

What's between us? As much real estate as is geographically possible, I hope.......
Posted by: JBryan

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 12:37 AM

She just needs the bolts on her neck (possibly obscured by hair) for the jumper cables. If she walks up to you and says she needs a jump run like hell.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 01:10 AM

Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 01:27 AM

Jbryan wrote:

Looks like Frankenstein in drag.[/b]

I don't appreciate you talking about my cousin that way, I'll have you know. She's a unisexual, and you're supposed to be tolerant of that. Keep that up, and you're gonna rile up Momma.....

Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 01:34 AM

Little Justin Parks gives his opinion on Cootie Shots tolerance training....



Little Justin's instructor:



Don't worry Buddy - you misunderstood..... some people still want you......
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 01:53 AM

It does appear that Justin could beat his instructor's @ss.
Posted by: David Burton

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 02:36 AM

I stayed away from this thread and just watched it grow, didn’t even read it until tonight. And only got to top third of page 5 before I had to stop. It’s now 2 freaking thirty in the morning! So I’ll post this and see what happens, if anything.

My first thought was how on earth did Larry find out about Bernard’s birds? Maybe someone spoke of this in another thread I don’t know. At least we now know that Jim Bryan also talks to birds. For the record I talk to my cats and believe me they understand what I’m saying, most of the time.

It seems among human beings, and I think it starts rather early too, among children who some have suggested may be tolerant but may not be as tolerant as civilized educated adults with more knowledge of the world and its many facets, there is a sort of mind game that’s played out. It takes the form of bullying by those who can, until they’re prevented in some way. Those who get bullied are terrified but there is also something symbiotic going on. They like it too. It’s thrilling to be scared and bullied.

Wilhelm Reich called one side sadism the other masochism as two poles of mutual attraction in his theory of character formation. It is seemingly of almost primal origin. Strip away all the education and refinement and underneath you will uncover one or the other of these two basic types. Unless of course you can get one or the other to move out of these poles into a more advanced character type. There are even theories that trace these poles to brain formation, linking them with the so called primitive brain below the cerebrum.

Of course Reich knew that sexuality was also a primal drive and fought a heroic fight to uncover a way out of the morass of sadomasochistic relationships between people to weld the sexual drive with higher compassion. If he could have found a way out he was certain he’d be on the way to developing a newer better happier human being.

Was this social engineering? It didn’t have the chance to be. Reich was chased from country to country until they got him on charges of defrauding the public and threw him in jail where he died, a broken man, a failure.

Reich was one of my late wife’s heroes.

Whether we recognize it or not we have witnessed on this thread a kind of play here between the weak and the strong. The strong always like to toy with the weak, that’s part of the sadistic urge. “oh come on I was only playing,” while deriving immense pleasure from seeing the weak squirm. (This was eerily and dramatically brought out in The Passion by the way) Meanwhile the weak wants something from the strong; to be accepted, loved, protected.

And sometimes there is another reaction; the weak wants eventually to overpower the strong and make him feel real pain and agony. This too is all too human.

I was born an albino with limited vision. The school playgrounds occasionally were hell for me. But then I somehow learned to defuse situations by standing up to bullies, by taking the superior role, with quite a crisp hard edge, by occasionally grabbing one of them and showing them my own strength. By the time I was an adolescent I was through with physical reactions. I used the power of my voice and my mind and none bothered me again. I wasn’t a social outcast. I was just apart. People left me alone which was usually fine with me. Those who wanted to know me got to know me.

I can understand something of what a homosexual must feel even though I’ll never be one of them. But to suggest that some of them never try to recruit is not true. I know from personal experience. I also know that just as it is a mistake to say that all straight people are alike, so it is with homosexuals. I have seen all kinds from very tough street smart punks to the most urbane cultured gentlemen. Cross dressers? I’ve heard tales of them in both San Francisco and New York but I’ve never seen one. Nevertheless, look or do anything that’s the slightest bit different and you’re going to be noticed and not always in a positive way.

Usually there are natural societies that form and levels of common sharing that emerge, particularly in typical suburban American high schools with the various cliques devoted to this or that fad.

Obviously there usually aren’t enough homosexuals to form a clique so they probably feel much as I did, separated, left out, alone.

OK, let’s admit that this is a problem. Are the social engineering methods employed by plays like “Cootie Shots” going to do the trick? No they’re not, in fact they’ll backfire as all social engineering does because none of it takes into consideration the basic fabric of human nature particularly the natural relationship between the strong and the weak.

Some people by this time have already begun yawning and saying, “God, what is Burton rambling on about this time?” I’m not as gifted a writer as…

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
Children are only young for a short while
They should be taught to be tolerant
They should be taught we are equal

They shouldn't be taught at too young an age
some of the things that burden adults
that they will experience all too soon. [/b]
I know, it’s hard when you have so much to say and can’t get it into thirty five words. But it’s leading up to this…

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Pedophilia is predatory and abnormal whichever sexual orientation it is emanating from. To associate homosexuality with pedophilia is dangerous, inaccurate and unfair. Would we be right in concluding that we should blame all heterosexual males for pedophilia aimed at underage females? That's the commonest kind of pedophilia. Sickness is sickness. Child molesting is child molesting. Fair is fair. [/b]
Many thanks Ariel !

Most would never believe me if I told them that there is real organized pedophilia out there operating in high places among people you’d never suspect of it who DO have an agenda and have had it since at least the end of the World War II. It started in Amsterdam, still the kiddy porn capital of the world. They decided that if they could gain public acceptance of homosexuality including same sex marriage and child rearing, then they could force their agenda on the rest of society; open target on children anywhere and everywhere. The political end of the homosexual community is being duped into thinking they’ll gain social acceptance, whereas they are in truth being used by far more deviant people who have no great need of or concern for them accept to further their own nefarious agenda. Yes my friends, the insidious weak vs. the strong again in its darkest form.

“one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.” By this definition many of us are bigots. If all the world is somehow bigoted the word ceases to carry much meaning.

We all need to get so beyond this to figure out who has driven these policies, WHO IS BEHIND IT, and unmask them and stop it. Do it before there is a real civil war, and don’t think it can’t happen.

Anyway, think about what I’m saying. Do I need to make it plain? Parents should go find out who is responsible for sponsoring this play and stuff like it, find the real people behind it, then watch them like hawks!

No, pedophilia, I prefer calling it pederasty or child molesting, is not homosexuality and I’m not sure they’re related. And they do NOT share the same profile. A pederast is a predator who masks himself or herself as a normal socially integrated person who just happens to like employment near lots of children; schools, churches, pageants, playgrounds, amusement parks, etc.

 Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTest:
Its funny how parents talk about their kids like they are property! Well, maybe they are, as our society functions in a way that makes it seem so. [/b]
Seem so? It is so in law and fact. I’ve done my research into family law coast to coast covering over 50 child abuse cases and believe you me, underneath most real sexual child abuse is the pederast parent or guardian who gets the courts to accept THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT…. Don’t get me started. Hand me a handgun mister!

Pederasts are on the bottom of my list as far as human depravity goes. The lowest rung of hell would not be bad enough for them. Every person they touch is scarred for life. Many never recover. These are the “sick bastards” not people like Bernard.

I’ve told you guys to go easy on him and I mean it! LOL.

You see my own reactions can’t help fit the pattern. Very interesting how the subject turned to guns too. Very. I don’t own a gun. Don’t care whether others own them or not. I’m not ashamed to admit that though I’m blinder than blind, I’d certainly like the thrill of shooting a big handgun some day. But that’s off the topic, merely symbolic, shooting off our energies, being manly men, etc.

I’d really like Bernard to think over his idea that acquainting young children with prejudices against homosexuals is really going to work. (Kenny too.) He thinks it will teach tolerance of diversity. (Kenny thinks it will further his idea of equality) Actually it may backfire. Rvaga knows.

I have a kid, a sixteen year old girl, who I’m sorry to say is very deeply prejudiced against people she knows very little about, and she certainly didn’t get it from me. She got it from her friends at school? Or maybe she had it as something innate. Her mother would be shocked. I hope she grows out of it. Nobody likes to think the unthinkable but if we grant as Bernard does that being truly homosexual is innate, I’m afraid we’re going to have to accept the possibility that certain other prejudices and predispositions are just as innate.

Political libs have trouble with this. It rankles their notions about equality. Well for the thousandth time I shout EQUALITY DOES NOT EXIST AND NEVER HAS AND NEVER WILL. THE WORLD IS UNFAIR, GET USED TO IT.
I certainly had to learn to accept it.

I’ll never be a Tom K or a Larry much as I might like to. On the other hand neither will ever be able to be me.

This was a real gem of a post:

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I have concerns about how children are introduced to sex-role identification. Kids are conservative. Life introduces them to enough surprises, and they're expected to swallow them. You never heard the one about the kid who is told "the facts" when he asks where his baby sister came from? He laughs hysterically, then working down finally to hiccups and wiping his eyes, says, "OK, OK [snort] Now tell me the TRUTH!"*
You think storks are less plausible? Then you DON'T remember being a kid!

Things have to be kept basic before exceptions are introduced. This is a totally different subject from that of their own innate sexual preferences. And is also from different from intolerance and ridicule.

Before early puberty, kids as a rule (unless they've been abused) are pre-sexual, just as they're pre-orgasmic (except in a psychodynamic sense).

Seems to be more the sticks and and snails and puppy dog tails aspect of sex-role sterotyping.

I'd like to see that loosened up a good bit (and it's VERY different from culture to culture - just pick up some old Malinowski or Margaret Mead, flawed as their methodology was). Especially when it comes to educating about opportunity and human potential - like until recently, girls were told to think of nursing school only if they were keen on medicine.

But in early childhood - as in up to Junior High -I think things should be kept as simple as possible. Yes, kids CAN get confused. Life's confusing enough. Why not keep the boy babies dressed in blue and the girl babies in pink? Gay teachers are fine with me - as long as they're good teachers. But no, save the drag queens for later: in the classroom, on TV and in Disney World. And the whole issue of cross dressing (and walking dead dogs, for that matter too - as gryphon pointed out). And this is not a pro-stereotyping recommendation; it's a recommendation that kids not be exposed to variations on sexuality which I think are NOT the product of individual idiosyncrasy, but of social pathology. The pathology being a society which is contemptuous of and shame-inducing about difference - and not just sexual ones. That means it's pretty much impossible to see what "normal homosexuality" (think about it!) might look like. But it doesn't look like Rupaul. And to present that variation as a healthy option at an early age isn't doing ANYBODY any good, not gays or hets. (Equally important - it doesn't look like nine-year old female tartlets either!) I think gender-identity confusion is a real risk and has nothing to do with sexual preference. And I've been there in spades as a single mother of sons, believe you me. [/b]
Thank-you Ariel.
Posted by: JBryan

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 07:20 AM

Larry,

Who unwrapped your "mummy". Please, tell them to wrap her back up!
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 09:00 AM

David Burton - I'm grateful for the time you share with us....you are very interesting.
Posted by: Toddler2

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 09:15 AM

Interesting post Dave. I read the whole thing and now I think I'm going blind ;\) But if you're ever down here in NC, I'll take you out shooting. You'll get bored of it "right quick" because it's just miserably LOUD. I do own firearms, but until they make them quieter, I can't say I'll enjoy shooting them much. Why I own them we can discuss elsewhere, but offer stands.

On topic, I can't fault taking a conservative approach to educating children about sexuality. As long as you do educate them. But by conservative, I mean be conservative in exposing them to anything judgemental or unclear. Much of what we've heard these skits depict is fairly tame and risk free. It may not be mainstream normal, but it is presented in a simple way with little judgement. Once Kings start issuing proclamations that this is now legal and acceptable, or when "Queens" have people beheaded, you've crossed a line. For people who feel strongly about these issues, NOT crossing that line is hard.

The cross-dressing, possibly homosexual boy in the skit of most contention doesn't meet my criteria for childrens education. You want to show a boy who likes to dress up like a girl and feels bad that he gets teased about it. Fine. Leave out references to "Queens" and beheadings, and that's fine. Maybe I'm wrong that being a "Queen" implies homosexuality, and maybe a little kid might not even notice it, but hey, I'm a physician and even I'm confused by that skit.

Like Ariel, I would follow the KISS principle. Keep it Simple, Stupid. And not because kids are stupid, obviously, but because child under the age of 10 will have a hard time differentiating between sexual attraction and friendship. And between play and gender identity. Confusing them with too much information, especially when the information is presented in a way even we adults find ambiguous and judgemental, seems like a bad idea. ie, not low risk.

Still, I don't agree that this method, call it artsy exposure, will backfire. It will only backfire if too much is made of it and children are pressured to "accept" that these skits depict normallacy (is that a word?). If the kids say, in post skit discussions, "that's weird", or "that's not normal", and are told "that's an interesting opinion", or "a lot of people agree with you, but some people actually do think it's normal", fine. The skits will probably do some good because the kids will have something to think about and discuss with their parents. If they are told by the teachers/educators that "it IS normal", or that they are being intolerant, then the risk of this backfiring and bothering parents becomes much greater.

Touchy subject, and tough to approach it safely.

Todd
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 10:54 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
Larry,

Who unwrapped your "mummy". Please, tell them to wrap her back up! [/b]
Wait a minute..... got to get my webcam turned on for this one.....
.
.
.
.
.
There.....now....
.
You got somethin' against my Momma?.......
Posted by: Improviso

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 11:15 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Improviso:
If a liberal had to take their own medicine [/b]
Ha! You aren't fooling me, not one little bit. Your pronoun doesn't agree with its antecedent subject, a sure sign you are either a liberal PC weenie or a female who's afraid of hurting another's feelings. In either case, this staunch right-wing machismo persona is just a front.

Have I got it right? \:D [/b]
Nope. Missed the target by a country mile. Take another "whack" at it.
Posted by: Improviso

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 11:24 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
Posted by kathy with a k: CHORTLE CHORTLE - as in the Marquis de Sade![/b]
Ouch! You know me too well, my beauty. ;\) [/b]
Tom,

That would be a great (and so true) tag line for you.

"Either kill me or take me as I am, because I'll be damned if I ever change..."
Posted by: JBryan

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 11:46 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
Wait a minute..... got to get my webcam turned on for this one.....
.
.
.
.
.
There.....now....
.
You got somethin' against my Momma?.......
[/b]
No but I'll bet when you were born the doc slapped her instead.
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 12:10 PM

When I was born, they arrested my Momma for peddling crack........

\:D


Actually, I was one of twins. My Daddy looked at us both and said "Momma, we've got to drown that ugly one........"

..... and that's how I learned to swim........

\:D
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 03:34 PM

David Burton's post?

Simply outstanding. David has a gift for seeing the bigger picture.
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 03:35 PM

And for writing the biggest posts!
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 03:43 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Improviso:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
Posted by kathy with a k: CHORTLE CHORTLE - as in the Marquis de Sade![/b]
Ouch! You know me too well, my beauty. ;\) [/b]
Tom,

That would be a great (and so true) tag line for you.

"Either kill me or take me as I am, because I'll be damned if I ever change..." [/b]
Ahh dear friend, thank you for your wise suggestion: but it was penned to kathy with a k, and the one who is the sun and to whom I am but a pale waxing moon would scorn the idea.

Women! Damn them and their feelings to hell!

But what can be done my friend, they hold the key to our hearts, do they not!?!

Some day, you and I, my philosophical compatriot, shall raise a tankard or two of ale together and find a few wenches to break our hearts!
Posted by: Improviso

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 04:07 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
But what can be done my friend, they hold the key to our hearts, do they not!?!

[/b]
So true. We're like putty in their hands. It's a good thing we are so "trainable" or I think they would take us out back and shoot us.
Posted by: bcarey

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 04:30 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Improviso:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
But what can be done my friend, they hold the key to our hearts, do they not!?!

[/b]
So true. We're like putty in their hands. It's a good thing we are so "trainable" or I think they would take us out back and shoot us. [/b]
Don't tempt us. ;\)
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 04:44 PM

you guys need jobs
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 04:52 PM

I've got one and can't seem to get it done.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 04:55 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
you guys need jobs [/b]
apple!!! You lusty wench, you are fair maiden that has won this swashbucklers heart, be mine tonight, my lovely. I shall wisper such sweet nothings into you ear that your breasts will grow a size larger!
Posted by: JBryan

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 05:18 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
you guys need jobs [/b]
Boss is coming:



Get back to work!
Posted by: bcarey

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 05:34 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
you guys need jobs [/b]
apple!!! You lusty wench, you are fair maiden that has won this swashbucklers heart, be mine tonight, my lovely. I shall wisper such sweet nothings into you ear that your breasts will grow a size larger! [/b]
Apple,

Take him out back and shoot him! ;\)
Posted by: bcarey

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 05:37 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
you guys need jobs [/b]
Boss is coming:



Get back to work! [/b]
Trying to change the constitution, JBryan?
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 05:39 PM

\:\(
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 05:40 PM

Hasta la Vista, Babies!
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 06:27 PM

[EDITED: The post that was here, and which explains some subsequent discussion, has been replaced because it was based on a misunderstanding. Sorry that the subsequent posts referring to this will not make sense to you now.]

Quote from Tom*-K:
 Quote:
Unfortunately, you take everything personal, and I mean nothing personal--
Are you telling me I am not to take the things you said in this thread personally!? Like it or not, homosexuality is not a choice, and it is not just an idea. We are real people.
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 06:31 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
I've got one and can't seem to get it done. [/b]
Kathy, I think the smilie you picked explains it pretty well...... :p ;\) \:D
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 06:55 PM

Bernard,

You are like me, entitled to your opinion. Nothing against you, I disagree with you and I play harder.

That's it. Nothing more. Nothing personal, I actually like you. BUT, I fight and argue for what I want. You cry and call the cops. Fine with me. Write Frank, quit, pout, throw a tantrum--that's what you're doing--you're being a teenaged girl. Fine with me.

When you grow up and be a man we can talk again. Stay on the Forum. STAY. I PROMISE, I PROMISE I won't comment on your posts again, till you become a man or never--whatever come first.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 07:02 PM

:rolleyes:
Posted by: David Burton

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 07:10 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
David Burton's post?
Simply outstanding. David has a gift for seeing the bigger picture. [/b]
Thanks Jolly.

 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
And for writing the biggest posts! [/b]
Yep, I like Mahler too, once in a while.

But I'm writing this post from another computer as mine may actually be dead. So, I wont be around for a while until I can get it fixed, or whatever it takes. Some of you will be grateful, others...well, you'll just have to wait til I return.

Best to you all.

Over and out.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 07:11 PM

Bernard - why do you keep fighting? I've found that a fair number of the posters, when arguing a position will never concede, back down or apologize. It sucks...

You are right. It's not worth your time.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 07:12 PM

Roger!
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 07:16 PM

apple, in case you hadn't noticed I stopped arguing my position last night.
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 07:23 PM

And I'm up for just about any position..... no argument here... just tell me which one...
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 07:39 PM

I disagree, Apple (respectfully of course).

Bernard's views are important, as there are perspectives only he can provide. And, it doesn't hurt for him to repeat his arguments/positions over and over. Sometimes it takes several slightly different presentations of the same point for it to get through to someone like me - a bonehead at times.
Posted by: johnmoonlight

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 07:58 PM

David, excellent post!
I disagree, however, that homosexuality is NOT innate. I firmly believe that it IS although I can't prove it.
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 09:39 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
you guys need jobs [/b]
AMEN. I don't know how you all manage to find jobs that let you play in the CF all day. I don't know how someone like KathyK who is her own boss manages to get any work done....I could never do it.

jf
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 09:44 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
And I'm up for just about any position..... no argument here... just tell me which one... [/b]
I think Larry is h*rn*y.......This certain theme keeps coming up.......

jf
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 09:46 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
 Quote:
Dear Bernard,

Yea, I know, It's me. Big suprise.
Tom*-K, I don't suffer fools lightly.

After my initial confrontation with Larry, for which I apologized, I took a breath and tried to argue in a reasonable manner. I thought Frank had in mind this would be a forum where adults could hold discussions about serious topics. You have never altered your childish and bratty behavior.

Perhaps I will leave. I haven't the inclination to waste my life dealing with you. You created a fictitious poster just to attack me. You carried on a conversation with yourself for half-pages at a time, deriding those you disagree with. This is very small, and as someone pointed out earlier, cowardly. I think this is well beyond the limit of what should be acceptable behavior here at PW. I think Frank should review the recent goings on.

 Quote:
NO! We're better than that. Let's state opinions, but never without listening. Let's speak freedom, but never without respect. But most of all let's learn love and its value, but never at the expense of truth.
That's what you said to your other persona in one of your schizophrenic conversations. What a lie.

 Quote:
Unfortunately, you take everything personal, and I mean nothing personal--
Are you telling me I am not to take the things you said in this thread personally!? What sort of dreamworld do you live in? Like it or not, homosexuality is not a choice, and it is not just an idea. We are real people.

Anyone who would do what you have done in this thread is sick, and in my opinion doesn't deserve the good graces of PianoWorld. [/b]
To quote one of my favorite posters....."I'm confused." Bernard, who is TomK's alter ego that he is debating in what thread???

jf
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 09:54 PM

 Quote:
posted by Bernhard: That's what you said to your other persona in one of your schizophrenic conversations. What a lie.
[/b]
Just curious, who is my "other" persona? Not combative, just curious.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 09:58 PM

Jack...its the Coffee Room !!!!!!

- not the Coffee Forum..

This is the Piano Forum - the coffee room is a subset.

goodnite Jack
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 09:59 PM

see what happens when sockpuppets play?
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 10:00 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
Jack...its the Coffee Room !!!!!!

- not the Coffee Forum..

This is the Piano Forum - the coffee room is a subset.

goodnite Jack [/b]
Goodnite Apple. I don't understand.........really I don't.

jf
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 10:07 PM

 Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Bernard:
In fact, I'd like to thank everyone who voiced support last week when I was suddenly personally attacked by a complete stranger. Thank you very much. You know who you are.
Tom's response:
 Quote:
Dear Bernard,

Yea, I know, It's me. Big suprise.
I believe Tom*-K is owning up to being Improviso, the complete stranger I was referring to in my thanks. What other explanation is there for his response? "It's me. Big su[r]prise." ??

If THAT's supposed to be a joke, it REQUIRES a graemlin to clarify. You can't believe I wrote what I did in that post just because Tom*-K has a different view of things? I wrote what I wrote because I believed Tom*-K was saying he was Improviso.

Tom*-K, without joking around, have I misread your statement? Are you Improviso? If not, disregard what I wrote. In fact, if you are not Improviso I will delete the text of my post.
Posted by: jodi

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 10:12 PM

Yeah, I've been trying to figure that out too, Bernard. You been playing with us again, Tom?

Jodi
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 10:17 PM

Bernard,

You are clearly correct and I guess TomK has admitted as much. I was not up to date with the posts.

Think of TomK as the Jester...Puck...Cupid even...clever, entertaining,makes things happen, but in the end......we have to0 learn not to take him to seriously or too personally....

jf
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 10:19 PM

I don't think that tom is to blame this time... of course I was wrong last time.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 10:21 PM

JF,

The Coffee Room was created by Frank to take some of the contentiousness out of the Piano Forum. In the old days, we might start out on pianos, and end up howling at the moon over durn near anything.

While highly entertaining, it wasn't much good for people wanting to strictly research, or discuss pianos.

So here we are, where we can marshall our slings and arrows of outrageous misfortune, and blithely cast them at each other, in wordy combat.

Now I hope I've been able to make our existence as clear as the LA skyline.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 10:24 PM

you mean muddy buddy?
Posted by: netizen

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 10:29 PM

Ya know.. I totally ignored this thread til today (I figures after 13 pages or whatever) I ought to check it out. I thought it was on school vaccines or some such. Geesh.... I 'm almost scared to check into the drip irrigation thread \:D

Anyhow, reading thru here I was reminded of one of my favorite films: "Ma Vie en Rose" (My life in pink): "the story of Ludovic, a little girl born in a little boy's body. For him, nothing is more natural than to change his gender. As a hopeful and sensitive child, he truly believes that a miracle is going to happen. He will be a girl, no doubt about it, and he's in love with Jerome, his school mate, and son of his father's colleague. Initially a source of amusement, an outrage begins in their suburb when the two boys are discovered pretending to get married. The family begins to realize with horror that his desire to be a girl isn't just a little boy's fantasy. They try to make him change his mind, to no avail. The situation turns into a real-life drama of intense reactions from neighbors, friends, and teachers, resulting in a profoundly optimistic ending."

check it out - Link


If you haven't seen it, I do recommended it.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 10:29 PM

 Quote:
Think of TomK as the Jester...Puck...Cupid even...clever, entertaining,makes things happen, but in the end......we have to0 learn not to take him to seriously or too personally....
Sorry, Jack Frost, I have put myself wholly into this serious discussion, I have gone out on a limb because I think it's important, and I've put myself on the line, trusting that I will be treated with respect. Creating a false identity just to berate me is crossing a line. If that's the way it is around here, I will be out.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 10:32 PM

netizen, Thank you. Can't wait to get it. Love the title too. Another film I want to add to my "Top 10" list when it recurs (it usually comes around a few times a year) is "The Naked Civil Servant".
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 10:35 PM

Bernard,

No. I thought that you had meant ME Tom K as the one who attacked you--we had an argument a while back and I thought...sorry.

I am not Improvisio. I wouldn't attack for the fun of it-- I do attack, but only for what I believe in.

Like them on not, you know my beliefs. I hold them strongly. I'll fight for them. But I'd never deceive--unless it was in fun.

I am not Improvisio--I have a good idea of who she is though.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 10:42 PM

as Kim says...."It's very easy to jump to wrong conclusions -so its' best to never accuse anyone"
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 10:51 PM

she. . . she. . .she. . . hmmmmmmm. who could it be. . .

Wait - - It's TomK saying "she." consider this guy, he can be tricky!
So, improvmiserio might not be a she, but a he that would like to be a she and uses female-like responses. Or, it might really be a he that feels like a she but talks like a he.
Or. . . maybe a she that used to be a he, but pretends to be a he and posts as a she to trick the hes and shes into thinking he/she is either a he or she or neither!

Yup. got it. figured it out.

;\)
Posted by: SameKenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 11:11 PM

Bernard
You are brave to be yourself amid these people.
I admire and respect you for it.

Offering your true self here makes you more of an honorable person than any of these faux-puritans.
Don’t let them get to you; their words are only heard by their buddies.
They must huddle together for warmth.
But the truth does not need agreement.

Don’t cast all your pearls here.
Keep some for yourself.

Very few contribute so much good to this forum as you do.
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 11:12 PM

A shemale, rvaga?
Posted by: netizen

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 11:35 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SameKenny:
Bernard
You are brave to be yourself amid these people.
I admire and respect you for it.

Offering your true self here makes you more of an honorable person than any of these faux-puritans.
Don’t let them get to you; their words are only heard by their buddies.
They must huddle together for warmth.
But the truth does not need agreement.

Don’t cast all your pearls here.
Keep some for yourself.

Very few contribute so much good to this forum as you do. [/b]
What he said !

And thanks for reminding me of "The Naked Civil Servant". Hmmm I wonder if NetFlix has it?
Posted by: Para

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 11:38 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Luke's Dad:
The biggest problem with the song is that it implies a superiority to crossdressers over regular folk. that's not teaching tolerance, that's saying "If you want to rule the world, be a crossdresser".

Th other thing is it's not teaching anything about homosexuality, it's about crossdressers. Crossdressing has nothing to do with homo or hetero sexuality. Their are gay crossdressers and straight crossdressers, and they are far in the minority of both groups. Is anybody ever born with a genetic disposition for crossdressing? You'd have a hard time selling me on that one. It is psychological abnormality. This song does nothing to promote tolerance of gays, and if anything will put older heterosexual kids on the defensive. It should put homosexual adults on the defensive as well, as it put's iup the message that homosexuals are crossdressers intent on ruling the world and getting revenge on straights.

So tell me Bernard, is that the message you want to send, I don't think so. You're an intelligent well spoken gentleman. I just think your vision gets a little blurry and you get defensive on issues dealing with sexuality. [/b]
Luke's Dad has an extremely good point. He's said it better then any of the rest of us I believe have, and as for the brawl between Larry and Bernard. They were both wrong on some account and were just being stiff and refusing to accept anything but their own opinions.

Although I usually don't share it publicly, (and even if I were straight, I doubt I'd boast openly about it. Sexuality is a personal mindset, not a supiriority/minority that should be used for claiming to be better then others) being a member of the gay community, I still disagree completely with the song and think Luke's Dad has made an awesome point. Thanks.
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/23/04 11:39 PM

 Quote:
Ariel:
A shemale, rvaga?
[/b]
Oh no!! My MOTHER IN LAW posts here!!!???

Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 12:20 AM

From Tom*-K:
 Quote:
Like them on not, you know my beliefs. I hold them strongly. I'll fight for them. But I'd never deceive--unless it was in fun.
To hold beliefs is fine, and probably necessary to us humans. To remain willfully ignorant is a sin in my book. I don't begrudge you the right to fight for your beliefs. But when scientific evidence indicates otherwise, isn't it time to revise the beliefs?

 Quote:
I am not Improvisio--I have a good idea of who she is though.
OK then. You do believe s/he is an imposter and I think you owe it to the forum to out her/him. If he or she is not the culprit they can defend themselves. But if we allow this sort of thing to continue, it will become impossible to hold any sort of meaningful discussion at Piano World and I for one will not hang around. It's difficult enough as it is. I will not hesitate to ask Frank to investigate this issue.

Kenny,

Thank you for your kind words and gentle advice. I will heed them. You are brave too.

Netizen,

What I just said.

Para, you said:
 Quote:
They were both wrong on some account and were just being stiff and refusing to accept anything but their own opinions.
With due respect, and no offense intended, I don't think you have been here long enough to appreciate the banter on the opening pages of this thread. Larry has been here for ages (apparently), and I've been here for 2.5 years--there is familiarity with one another's ways.

I also think, that like Luke's Dad, you are taking the skit way too seriously. Have you read this entire thread? Do you know the whole skit, not just the excerpt? Do you know the entire production of "Cootie Shots"?
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 01:12 AM

I think Larry is h*rn*y.......This certain theme keeps coming up.......[/b]


Jack, I was *born* h*rn*y. You will just have to be tolerant of that..... just don't decide to put together a program of skits to teach little kids about it.
Posted by: DT

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 07:41 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rvaga:
So, improvmiserio might not be a she, but a he that would like to be a she and uses female-like responses. Or, it might really be a he that feels like a she but talks like a he.
Or. . . maybe a she that used to be a he, but pretends to be a he and posts as a she to trick the hes and shes into thinking he/she is either a he or she or neither!

;\) [/b]
L-O-L-A, Lola
Lo-, Lo-, Lo-,Lo-Lola
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 07:47 AM

 Quote:
Posted by Bernard: OK then. You do believe s/he is an imposter and I think you owe it to the forum to out her/him. If he or she is not the culprit they can defend themselves.[/b]
Two points: I meant to say s/he not she and if I "out" someone who I "believe" is Improvisio, that would be participating in a witch hunt. I would never do something like that. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. You just don't understand how life works do you?

As far as your remark about science goes, fine I have no problem with science. I just don't want crap like "Cootie Shots" within a mile of my kids. I read the whole thing and honestly I don't like the idea in general not just the "high heels" part of it.

They are my kids, I will socialize them the way I choose. If I err on the side of what I feel is in their best interest at the expense of some other members of society--too bad for the other members of society. They have school work and piano lessons and equestrian lessons and golf lessons. That's enough for them to do, to have them start worring about the shenannigans of two percent of the population before high school isn't worth the effort. \:\)
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 08:49 AM

Okay, Tom, so you're not Improviso. But you are Rudolofo Tierra del Fuego (or some such mouthful) and the ever so briefly appearing, bus socially conscious Bud Struggle (who I was quite smitten by) and yesterday, you claimed to be Chickgrand (who has been strangely absent from the forum for nearly a month.

So, anybody, PLEASE, PLEASE tell me TomK is not Chickgrand. That is a blow I think I could not bear!!
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 09:32 AM

Dearest kathy,

I'm not Rudolpho whomever. (who is he by the way--he must be interesting!) Never heard of him. I was Bud for a MOMENT when I changed my email address and locked myself out of my old TomK, I figured (after making a pass or two at apple) I would just be TomK with a different name. I told everybody right away. apple simply HATED it and he's gone.

And I am NOT Chickgrand. Though sitting here dressed my winter white cotton twill trousers that I bought yesterday from Neiman-Marcus and my blue button down shirt (the blue is the color of the April sky in Texas,) with a slight white pinstripe and my floral Gucci tie, I can understand the way his aesthetic sensibilities run.

As I look out over the plethora of colors in my garden and see the foxglove and the honeysuckle and the jasmine in bloom, I can understand the depth of his feelings for color and texture and taste. I can understand him probably better than anyone else on the Forum.

Hope that answers you question.

By the way, are you Improvisio?
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 09:56 AM

Yeah, right! It's an outlet for my latent conservative tendencies. Nope, sweets, I'm just little ol' me.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 10:05 AM

And y'all thought I was nuts over the issue of sockpuppetry...

Well, how do y'all like it now?

In a medium such as this, all we have is an honest effort to be what we are, yet we have no way of proving anything.

That is why honesty is so important, even if you do not agree on the issues.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 10:10 AM

 Quote:
Offering your true self here makes you more of an honorable person than any of these faux-puritans.
Don’t let them get to you; their words are only heard by their buddies.
They must huddle together for warmth.
But the truth does not need agreement.
Personally, I don't consider myself faux anything.

And just because you do not agree with many of the viewpoints, does not mean that those viewpoints are not accepted by others. In this particular thread, we are talking about a skit that would not play in almost any school district I have ever known - not if the parents were given the script beforehand, and allowed to comment.
Posted by: jodi

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 10:12 AM

Tomk is not Chickgrand, I think Chickgrand is on vacation from this place. And I believe that Chickgrand has the guts to post what he thinks under his own handle. I don't really care who the Improvisational dude is. Nor do I particularly care if s/he's outed. That's not our right, nor Franks job, so please don't bug him about it. Improv can swim or sink on his it's own words here just like the rest of us. (and I'm not throwing it any flotation devices either)

Jodi
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 10:23 AM

Adopting a different alias - and announcing you are doing so, what the limits of the camouflage are and what your reasons are - is one thing.

This is done in a limited fashion for explicit and understandable purposes (whether or not you yourself would have done the same)...

For instance, remember the member who confided using a different identity, that he/she was concerned about a biopsy result?

For an established member, to adopt and use a new name WITHOUT ANNOUNCING THAT IT IS BEING DONE is a whole different kettle of fish.

No, Jolly it is NOT the same as your obsession with Lazy Pianist.

Ariel
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 10:43 AM

Excuse me Ariel, but I believe I'll stand on the side of honesty, and let you explain to me why people should lie.

This should be interesting...especially in lieu of your recent post about internet honesty....
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 11:00 AM

I'm all for telling the truth myself. For one thing, I believe that when you start fudging and twisting and outright lying, you tend to forget what the truth is. It's hard enough to know what we feel and why and who we are, in many ways.

For instance, I think OJ really believes he did NOT kill Nicole. I've read, in fact (and it makes sense) that most murderers do not recall committing the crime. Scary.

But then we have a need to believe we're nice people. After all, there's no such thing as divorcing our own selves (sometimes I've wished I could give myself a good swift kick in the rear, though - but unfortunately, I can't reach \:\( )

And most people DO believe it's wrong to lie. So they start to believe what they've said is actually true.

I'm glad I'm not a saleswoman. (In fact, I got fired from one job in retail for refusing to tell women they looked good in clothes that were not becoming.)

So I tell the truth not just ethically but out of self-defense. Can't afford to get any more confused than I started out, after all! (And as the saying goes, it IS easier to remember).

But adopting a second fake name from what is for most of us, a first fake name - and being clear about it - is a far cry from lying in my book.

It's still quite a mystery to me how you justify calling it such, in fact, Jolly. Where's the lie?

Ariel/Amanda
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 11:24 AM

Hey, Jolly. Is that your real name? I had a 3rd grade teacher named Mrs. Jolly in Marine City, Michigan. She was the best - probably my favorite teacher. She had dark curls and pointy cat glasses. Today, she might remind one of Ms. Frizzle from the Magic School Bus books. She let me tutor (as in giving some extra help) some of the kids that had "cooties." You know, the ones everyone else made fun of because they wore funny shoes and lived in foster homes. It was in that grade that I developed a real empathy for the cootie kids and tried to demonstrate to my peers they they were just like the rest of us by letting them know I wasn't afraid of catching cooties. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. Anyway, Mrs. Jolly was a big part of that formative experience. You think you're related?
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 11:24 AM

Rudolofo Tierra del Fuego is a very dear friend to several of us here on the forum. His real name is Radu, and he is a Romanian living in Israel. And yes, he is one interesting dude. He was in the Israeli army, he owns and plays the piano, and has a clever wit. It would take forever to paint a picture of the man using words, so let it suffice that he is not a troll, not a sock puppet, but a highly valued old friend to many of us who have long posted on usenet. If you took anything he wrote as a dig, or "trollish", it was simply because you didn't understand him the way those of us who know him do. We even went through a phase where we would yell "I hate you" to each other, having established through a long string of posts that we sometimes say one thing and mean another, so.... you get the picture.

He is a dear man, a valued friend to many here, and one we worry about quite often because of where he lives.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 11:28 AM

A lie is nothing but an intentional act of deception.

Yes, most of us have handles on this board (or any other, for that matter), but that is an issue of privacy, and one of safety. Kenny has pointed out his distaste of the practice, but I have no problem with it. Just because one plays the piano, does not mean they don't do a bit of serial killing in their spare time. ;\)

The playful temporary taking of a second handle does not overtly worry me, either. Sure, i'm not wild about it, but it is usually done in fun, and rapidly disclosed.

In the case of LP, or anyone else, who will deliberately change names, and keep it that way, is akin to a ship sailing under false colors. I can look back over Ariel's posts, or Larry's, or whomever's, and I can get a sense of that person's integrity, and honesty. I can put faith in what they say, whether i agree with it, or not.

Sockpuppetry, on the other hand, can have many detrimental effects. It can be used to create the illusion of agreement. It can be used to create a straw man that can easily be torn down by its' creator. It can be used to say hurtful, or spiteful things that cannot be traced to the originator. And yes, I believe it shows a fundamental lack of honesty on the part of the creator. One should be confident enough in one's beliefs to stand on your own two hind legs, and defend them.

I know this is not a courtroom, or a legal proceding, but imagine if you will a court where the accuser never has to confront the accused, where evidence does not matter, and no-one is responsible for their actions, or what they say.

This medium has enough anarchy for me, without adding to the confusion.
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 11:35 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
Rudolofo Tierra del Fuego is a very dear friend to several of us here on the forum. His real name is Radu, and he is a Romanian living in Israel. And yes, he is one interesting dude. He was in the Israeli army, he owns and plays the piano, and has a clever wit. It would take forever to paint a picture of the man using words, so let it suffice that he is not a troll, not a sock puppet, but a highly valued old friend to many of us who have long posted on usenet. If you took anything he wrote as a dig, or "trollish", it was simply because you didn't understand him the way those of us who know him do. We even went through a phase where we would yell "I hate you" to each other, having established through a long string of posts that we sometimes say one thing and mean another, so.... you get the picture.

He is a dear man, a valued friend to many here, and one we worry about quite often because of where he lives. [/b]
Correction, his name is Portamento which sounds Latino to me, not Romanian. And why does he say he lives in Tierra del Fuego? Larry, I think your full of it.

A post from Rodolopho
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 11:45 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
Hey, Jolly. Is that your real name? I had a 3rd grade teacher named Mrs. Jolly in Marine City, Michigan. She was the best - probably my favorite teacher. She had dark curls and pointy cat glasses. Today, she might remind one of Ms. Frizzle from the Magic School Bus books. She let me tutor (as in giving some extra help) some of the kids that had "cooties." You know, the ones everyone else made fun of because they wore funny shoes and lived in foster homes. It was in that grade that I developed a real empathy for the cootie kids and tried to demonstrate to my peers they they were just like the rest of us by letting them know I wasn't afraid of catching cooties. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. Anyway, Mrs. Jolly was a big part of that formative experience. You think you're related? [/b]
If you go back far enough.

The name is old, and probably originated in France, but the original settlers in America would have called themselves English.

The original Heraldry featured an arm holding a sword, and the Latin words meaning "as long as I can".

Kinda explains my personality, doesn't it? ;\)
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 11:48 AM

Well, we've seen the results of your thinking before......

I copied his "handle" from one of your posts. I don't pay any attention to the names he comes up with. He often switches names, but lets everyone know its him. It's part of his personality. The name is a made up name, Kathy. Radu is his real name. And you can expect to see several others pile on during the day who will tell you the one who is full of it is you - that they know Radu very well. Matt, Dwain, Jolly, DT, Chris, Jodi, they all know Radu.
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 11:53 AM

Okay. I really thought he was TomK, but he says no and you say no. I guess I give TomK way too much credit for being clever. \:\(
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 11:59 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
They have...golf lessons.[/b]
You monster.
Posted by: jodi

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 12:08 PM

Radu doesn't post much here, but he is (or was) a big part of rmmp. Larry's telling the truth, kathy. And Tomk really is Tomk just like he says. His last name starts with a K.

I have no idea who Iprov is, but if he's a second personality to someone we know, it is very much the same as what LP admitted to doing - posting under another name in the coffee room so they could say what they really thought about the more controversial matters, which, for some personal or professional reason they are uncomfortable posting under their "real" or "other" handle.

You want to know what I think? Well, guess what, you're going to hear it anyway. If you can't say it online to the whole world under your real identity, you probably shouldn't be saying it at all.

\:\) Jodi
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 12:14 PM

I agree Jodi. And as to Radu, or Rodolpho, I wish he'd post her more. From the little I saw, he was rather entertaining.
Posted by: kenny

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 12:39 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jodi:


You want to know what I think? Well, guess what, you're going to hear it anyway. If you can't say it online to the whole world under your real identity, you probably shouldn't be saying it at all.

\:\) Jodi [/b]
Amen Sister!
Real people have more credibility than fake ones.
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 12:55 PM

Tom*-K:

 Quote:
As far as your remark about science goes, fine I have no problem with science. I just don't want crap like "Cootie Shots" within a mile of my kids. I read the whole thing and honestly I don't like the idea in general not just the "high heels" part of it.

They are my kids, I will socialize them the way I choose. If I err on the side of what I feel is in their best interest at the expense of some other members of society--too bad for the other members of society. They have school work and piano lessons and equestrian lessons and golf lessons. That's enough for them to do, to have them start worring about the shenannigans of two percent of the population before high school isn't worth the effort.
Tom*-K, I think that's fine (except for the 2% part, it's much higher than that.) I do think parents op-out signatures should be honored. What I objected to was the tone which Larry created in his post linking "Cootie Shots" with gay marriage and everything else homosexual by insuating there was an agenda of indoctrination behind "Cootie Shots". My whole point throughout this whole thread has been that the agenda behind "Cootie Shots" is acceptance and tolerance. There are whole skits devoted to religion (including Catholicism); it is not a biased work. It tries to illuminate the many ways in which people are different. That's all.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 01:32 PM

Radu is a riot, and a long-standing romper roomer.

I wonder if he still has the Samickstein?....
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 01:34 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
Okay. I really thought he was TomK, but he says no and you say no. I guess I give TomK way too much credit for being clever. \:\( [/b]
Wait till you find out that I'm Jack Frost! \:D

And kathy, I don't know why you keep insisting that I have to go outside the TomK franchise to be schizophrenic. I think I do a pretty good job of having multiple personalities under one name. \:D

Also, dear kathy, Rumanian is a romance language derived from Latin just like Italian--there are a lot of similarities.

Bernard, I rather "Cootie Shots" not be in the schools at all. I like the idea of schools for learning the three "R"s and for the parents to teach socialization at home.
Posted by: Dwain Lee

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 01:46 PM

I received one call at my office just after the 9/11 attacks (sadly, just after we had all left for our homes) to offer condolences and ask after my friends and loved ones. That one call came from none other than Rodolpho Fritzweil Portamento. It was a very long distance telephone call; one which I'll never forget and which I'll always be sorry only ended up on my voice mail.

His name is whatever he tells you his name is, whenever he cares to tell it to people. I, and others here, have spoken with him, written him, shared gifts and kind wishes, and shared fears and worries. I know that at least one crazy soul tries to contact him every time a terrorist blows himself up in a particular city, and at least one person has begged him to move, for the safety of him & his family.

Put in a whole lot fewer words, he is real, and a very good friend.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 01:49 PM

Gee, now that everybody is saying such nice thing about him, I wish I was this Rudolpho!
Posted by: Chris Aher

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 05:27 PM

I have also spoken to "Rudolpho" on the phone. I called him after a bombing hit a little close to home over there a while back. I consider him to be one of my most valued friends. He has a wonderfully off-beat sense of humor that doesn't always translate well. Remember English is not his first or even his second language. (more like forth or fifth)

As to the original subject of this thread, I'm a "live and let live kind of guy but don't mess with my kids". On the other hand, we raised them from a very early age to be self sufficient and to take care of themselves. They were subjected to far more insideous garbage (hands on condom demos in 9th grade for instance) than the "Cooties" play in school, but we chose not to opt out but to teach them to see through the cr*p and think for themselves. Unfortunately, this is a preparation for life, where they will have to sort through the nonsense as adults. They are both in college now and so far so good. Teaching critical thinking to your kids is a very difficult and painful process but the results are worth it.

I came up against intolerance to homosexuals personally as a teenager. In my neighborhood,(Brooklyn) if you were interested in music, art, and literature you were automattically labeled as a "fruit", or "queer" and were a target to get beat up. Your actual orientation didn't matter. Intolerance is an ugly thing. I ignored it when I could and fought like h#ll when I had to. I will say no one laid a fist on me more than once.

Regards,
Chris
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 05:37 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
Okay. I really thought he was TomK, but he says no and you say no. I guess I give TomK way too much credit for being clever. \:\( [/b]
Wait till you find out that I'm Jack Frost! \:D

And kathy, I don't know why you keep insisting that I have to go outside the TomK franchise to be schizophrenic. I think I do a pretty good job of having multiple personalities under one name. \:D

Also, dear kathy, Rumanian is a romance language derived from Latin just like Italian--there are a lot of similarities.
[/b]
He already suprised me with his persona, so I don't think you could pull that one off, TomK. I must admit, when you re-emerged with the star, I thought you (and Bud Struggle) were my ultra-liberal (reformed R), ultra-political, ultra-witty brother-in-law who I had worked on to join the forum. (Remember my cryptic PM?) Just another one of the string of disappoinments you've subject me to, Mr. T!

P.S. I thought Rumanian was a slavic language????
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 05:46 PM

But kathy,

I can BE anybody. Tom~*K is who I CHOOSE to be, now. See? \:\)
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 06:11 PM

surprised? How about obsessed?
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 06:22 PM

apple,

She only a woman--a woman who has met "the TOMK"!

We must forgive her, she know not what she does. She is as we say in Pamplona "full of the poopie of he who runs"!
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 07:40 PM

Obessessed with what?! Miss Apple, 'fraid you missed the boat on that one! I have a husband I'm quite very content with. I'm just lookin' for some online diversion from my sometimes dull work! If I'm obsessed with anything of late, it's PF (and JF!).
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 08:01 PM

Girls, girls, girls; let's behave now. \:\)
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 08:05 PM

I am not one of your girls Mr. smiley.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 08:08 PM

OOps! you are so right. My lovely, my sweet. I kiss you nose, I kiss you toes.

I love you apple, no kidding. I love you.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/24/04 08:27 PM

ok

lly2
Posted by: ChickGrand

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 12:55 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
And I am NOT Chickgrand. Though sitting here dressed my winter white cotton twill trousers that I bought yesterday from Neiman-Marcus and my blue button down shirt (the blue is the color of the April sky in Texas,) with a slight white pinstripe and my floral Gucci tie, I can understand the way his aesthetic sensibilities run[/b]
Wrong. Fifty identical black T-shirts and army fatigue shorts fill my closet. Been in long pants only twice in three years. Ball cap and high top tennies and I'm good to go. Add a black leather jacket if it gets below 20 degrees. No "Ricardo Montalban" here, whatever you may think. I don't put on a suit unless I'm dining with a senator, a president, or a monarch. And I've been sorely tempted to put on the Reeboks with the suit, even then and very nearly have. :p

And, yeah, Radu is pretty cool from way back. I'm working my way backwards through this thread. Doubt I'll go much further back than to find out what he had to say.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 01:25 AM

I feel for ya, Chick. Today I wore bluejeans, a chino shirt, and Nike airs. I have to dress up every day, and today I rebelled. I'm not taking it any more! Harrumph!
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 01:57 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jodi:
Tomk is not Chickgrand, I think Chickgrand is on vacation from this place. And I believe that Chickgrand has the guts to post what he thinks under his own handle. I don't really care who the Improvisational dude is. Nor do I particularly care if s/he's outed. That's not our right, nor Franks job, so please don't bug him about it. Improv can swim or sink on his it's own words here just like the rest of us. (and I'm not throwing it any flotation devices either)

Jodi [/b]
OK. I said I wouldn't hesitate to ask Frank to investigate this issue. I meant that I think Frank should know that the practice of sock puppetry exists here, and that some of us who have really enjoyed Piano World will be driven away if enough of it occurs.

Sorry, Jodi, I simply do not understand "that's not our right, nor Franks job" ?? Surely you do not mean that you are content to allow anyone to come in here and run amok, and neither we nor Frank should do anything about it? No one should protect the investment that is Piano World?

Improviso could be a legitimate new poster but I find that a stretch to believe. His/her very first post at Piano World appears above and it's purpose was to make derogatory remarks about my sex life, which the presumptuous (I can think of more than one adjective) little weasle knew nothing about. I can think of at least two times in the past when a brand new poster appeared in the Coffee Room attacking someone on the right, and they were practically driven out of here. It was argued that this was Piano World and it was meant for people with at least a basic interest in piano. So far, Improviso has only posted in the Coffee Room and the majority of his/her posts are in this thread.

Tom*-K took responsibility for being Improviso, but now we know that was a double misunderstanding--one on his part, and one on mine. He took the trouble of sending me a personal email to tell me he is not Improviso and I believe him.

Thirdly, what I now consider the most probable, Improviso is a sock puppet. If that is the case, he/she, as someone said earlier, is a coward.

So there we have it. If s/he's a legitimate new poster, we've seen that s/he doesn't know what s/he is talking about and spews untruths--that illuminate a lot more about who they are than about who I am. Or they are cowardly sock puppet.

At this point, I don't care who Improviso is. But it would be wrong not to have had a discussion about him/her.

I'm out of here.


P.S. Has this conversation turned to Radu Lupu!?
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 02:43 AM

*sigh*

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
I meant that I think Frank should know that the practice of sockpuppetry actually exists here[/b]
No kidding? I'm surprized that you only realize this now, especially since you don't know that sockpuppetry actually exists in this case (although you have ignored it before when it was liberals doing it) so don't be surprized if your cries fall upon deaf ears.
 Quote:
it's sole purpose was to make derogatory remarks about my sex life, which the scummy little weasle knew nothing about. [/b]
I don't understand this at all. First, I noted earlier that at 9:00pm EST there were 102 visitors on PW and 50 something members. There are hundreds of people who read this every day but aren't members until they have a reason to officially sign up so they can post something. (I was one until I was ready to buy a new piano). Maybe that thread prompted them to post here. Not only that but there are over 5,000 members here, and more new ones every day. Second of all, yes, they did know about your sex life because you talk about it like a peacock spreading his feathers for all to see! Are you blind? Have you ever read a message where I've talked about licking carpet or anything? No! So why are *you* being so flamboyant here? Same thing with Lady Elton. She continually posts that she is a dyke (her words) and uses so many swear words that at least two are bleeped out by the forum censor here on every post she makes. So don't be surprized if people talk about your sexuality when you post about it.

If Improviso is a sockpuppet, then I agree with you that that is wrong, even though Improviso may be a sweet woman who doesn't want to be identified as someone who thinks the homosexual lifestyle is utterly disgusting. On the other hand, maybe he's a long time reader, first-time poster.
 Quote:
If s/he's a legitimate new poster, we've seen that s/he doesn't know what s/he is talking about and spews untruths[/b]
Huh? Unless you are being strict in meaning in that you, as a homosexual, are celibate and Improviso stated that the homosexual lifestyle was disgusting. Heck, I didn't know or remember that you were celibate. Is that what you are referring to? And why are you constantly bringing up your sex practices?
Posted by: EHpianist

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 02:56 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
Rudolofo Tierra del Fuego is a very dear friend to several of us here on the forum. His real name is Radu, and he is a Romanian living in Israel. [/b]
I didn't know Radu posted here! I haven't read any of his posts... I hope he is alright!

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
Posted by: Bernard

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:00 AM

Gryphon, Your hatred and vileness are so clear in your post that I do not need to point it out to the others on this forum. They will see through you the way I do.

[Edited out.]

I am gone from Piano World.

I know, I should be able to deal with it. \:\(

To my friends: we'll keep in touch via email.
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:06 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
Gryphon, Your hatred and vileness are so clear in your post that I do not need to point it out to the others on this forum.[/b]
Bernard, I've reread my post and frankly I don't see it. Maybe that's evidence of my hatred and vileness, but again I don't see it. Perhaps if you (or others since you won't be here) could point that out, perhaps I could better myself.
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:23 AM

I dunno about the "hatred and vileness" (does anybody say vileness any more?). All I read from the above discourse is an honest dialogue between two opposite poles.

But, you're definitely a night-owl, Gryphon!
Posted by: gryphon

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:31 AM

As I stated to another in email a little bit ago, I'm sitting at my kitchen table working. And now I'm off to bed!
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 04:14 AM

 Quote:
Posted by Chickgrand: Wrong. Fifty identical black T-shirts and army fatigue shorts fill my closet. Been in long pants only twice in three years. Ball cap and high top tennies and I'm good to go. Add a black leather jacket if it gets below 20 degrees. No "Ricardo Montalban" here, whatever you may think. I don't put on a suit unless I'm dining with a senator, a president, or a monarch. And I've been sorely tempted to put on the Reeboks with the suit, even then and very nearly have.[/b]
I don't know, hows this: I'll meet you half way. Baggy tan chinos with penny loafers and no socks. Pernament pressed polo shirt from K-mart with no pocket and no emblem over the right breast. Since it gets cold in the midwest a Gortex jacket and ski hat that can pull down over your face in case you want to rob a bank. \:\)
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 10:30 AM

I do not use sock puppets, so if anyone thinks I did it, you are mistaken. And Bernard, you wear your feeling too far out on your sleeve. I don't like seeing *anyone* leave, but I'm not going to beg someone to stay when they are being sensitive to the point of ridiculousness.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 10:42 AM

The thing is Bernard is that this is PianoWorld.. not Sexualorientationacceptance-World. You are asking a diverse group of people to accept your concepts on your terms. Some of us do and some don't.... so what?
Posted by: jodi

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 11:53 AM

Don't know how I missed the end of this thread, couldn't figure out where the last straw for Bernard was.

Bernard, (assuming you're still reading) this is an open forum, and an unmoderated one (for the most part) as well. I believe that Frank came really close to shutting us down awhile back because he was having a hard time dealing with all the people reporting posts and posters that they felt went over the line.

As much as I wish that everybody here was nice and smiley all the time, it just isn't the way the world works. Especially on a forum like this, were the most controversial topics are up for discussion, where folks lay open their thoughts and lives for public scrutiny.

People say mean and nasty and offensive things. Sometimes, people say really strong things, that they believe they have the right to say, because it's their opinion. And then others, because of their circumstances, because of who they are, because they have already had to live with such discrimination all the time, get really offended. Are you being overly sensitive? Maybe no, maybe a little yes. You are who you are, and you react to things certain ways because of that. I can't speak for you.

I don't blame you for being offended, and feeling attacked by Improviso. I avoided that thread forever, and then read it straight through, and his first post came off as ugly and hateful. I felt it too. (And honestly, if he's someone we know by another name somewhere else in these pages, it was a really chickenshit thing to do - but that's another topic)

I just went back and read the words again. Improviso said:

"We don't fear you. We find your sexual lifestyle sickenly distasteful. It's an opinion, not a fear."

And sprinkled in that little paragraph were quoted phrases from someone elses message: "sick bastard", "sick pervert", "bigots", "hetero-man", and "homophobe".

Well, Yikes. All those friendly words. No wonder it set me (and you) off. I mean, it's not a great leap to go from "We find your lifestyle sickeningly distasteful." to "We find you sickeningly distasteful." If I were a homosexual, and I'd lived my whole life with an awful lot of people associating what I was with words like that, I'd be pretty sensitive too. And probably really depressed a lot of the time.

What if Improv had said, instead: "I find the thought of sex with someone of my same gender distastful, it's not a fear, it's an opinion."?

Maybe that's what he meant. Maybe not. I don't know. I just know that words hurt. Especially here, when that's all we have to go from - words on a computer screen.

So, I'm sorry that you are leaving. I wish that you wouldn't, but I can't say that I don't understand.

All my best to you, Bernard.

\:\) Jodi
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 01:39 PM

gosh - i didn't know he/she said those things. (i'm a skimmer) I take back my welcome to Improvio...I was just word-playing with the previous poast..sorry
Posted by: EHpianist

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:00 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
P.S. I thought Rumanian was a slavic language???? [/b]
Kathy this is a common misconception, but Rumanian is in fact a Romance langauge (based on Latin), just as Spanish, French, Italian and Portuguese.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:12 PM

Now on the other hand Bernard goes on to gryphon:
 Quote:
Gryphon, Your hatred and vileness are so clear in your post that I do not need to point it out to the others on this forum.[/b]
gryphon was just stating facts to him in his fashion. Bernard's not the innocent little lamb that he's being made out to be.

And I pointed out a very interesting (at least to me,) and serious connection that might occur (albeit in my usually arch way,) between homosexuality and abortion and Bernard missed my point and accused me of being insulting. I, being the gentleman that I am, apologized. Not because I was wrong but because for him to have understood what I was saying I would to have been totally serious. Not something I could do that easily (being a class clown is a genetic problem with me.) I'm pointing these instances out because Bernard needs to be treated in a special way and that's not necessarily going to happen in this meileu.

Listen: Improv was over the line with his remarks. They were not meant to discuss, they were meant to hurt. On the other hand it's hard to discuss the pro's and cons of important issues if people are going to take fair and honest discussion as personal attacks. The lines of good taste could be blurred a little, but they shouldn't be broken by either side. But when they are, we should just think, "A**hole!" and move on.

No one's getting on Kenny's case now that he's tearing up the scenery as a drama queen (no pun intended.) We all know and understand what he's up to. Fine. I think that we all should give each other that kind of benefit of the doubt in these discussions. Relax a little and realize--this ain't real life.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:19 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by EHpianist:
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
P.S. I thought Rumanian was a slavic language???? [/b]
Kathy this is a common misconception, but Rumanian is in fact a Romance langauge (based on Latin), just as Spanish, French, Italian and Portuguese.
[/b]
Where have I heard that before? :p
Posted by: JBryan

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:21 PM

It must be a Romance language. Haven't all of us gentlemen whispered sweet nothings in Rumanian?
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:32 PM

good post tomk.... and everyone else of every color and persuasion that ever wrote a post. (my apologies if I left anyone out.)
Posted by: JBryan

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:35 PM

What about us transparent people who cannot be persuaded?

I feel so left out. \:\(
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:36 PM

apple,

Kisses and hugs to you my little angel!
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:39 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
What about us transparent people who cannot be persuaded?

I feel so left out. \:\( [/b]
It's CLEAR to me you are a PANE IN THE GLASS Jbran.

(hugs etc. to you friend tomk)
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:47 PM

I think you're *all* a bunch of sick perverts, and I'm telling mommie........
Posted by: JBryan

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:48 PM

Did you get her wrapped back up again? (I hope)
Posted by: Chris Aher

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:50 PM

Hey!

I resemble that remark!

\:D

 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
I think you're *all* a bunch of sick perverts, and I'm telling mommie........ [/b]
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:50 PM

TomASterisk:
 Quote:
Relax a little and realize--this ain't real life. [/b]
That's where you - and Jolly (who has also said the same thing once in awhile as have others), are wrong.

Of course, it's real life. As long as we're real people (somestimes a question), this is real too. It's just a different, modern way of (real) people relating.

And it obviously matters to all of us or we wouldn't spend so much time and energy on it.

I realize that you - Tom - more than any others perhaps, makes the most claim to taking it purely as entertainment and an opportunity for banter (and cyber-passes)...Nevertheless, even if you're not one who spends a lot of energy pouring out your heart and philosophy, it's obviously by your involvement that it's pretty important to you too, even if your feelings aren't easily (at all?) hurt.

Ariel
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 03:54 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
TomASterisk:
 Quote:
Relax a little and realize--this ain't real life. [/b]
That's where you - and Jolly (who has also said the same thing once in awhile as have others), are wrong.

Of course, it's real life. As long as we're real people (somestimes a question), this is real too. It's just a different, modern way of (real) people relating.

And it obviously matters to all of us or we wouldn't spend so much time and energy on it.

[/b]
see ...it does matter Ariel.
Posted by: jodi

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 04:04 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
...The lines of good taste could be blurred a little, but they shouldn't be broken by either side. But when they are, we should just think, "A**hole!" and move on.
[/b]
This is pretty good advice, it's just not always that easy to do. Some of us manage better than others.

\:\) Jodi
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 04:05 PM

 Quote:
Posted by Ariel: I realize that you - Tom - more than any others perhaps, makes the most claim to taking it purely as entertainment and an opportunity for banter (and cyber-passes)...Nevertheless, even if you're not one who spends a lot of energy pouring out your heart and philosophy, it's obviously by your involvement that it's pretty important to you too, even if your feelings aren't easily (at all?) hurt.
[/b]
Of course it matters My Little One, but it's HOW it matters that's important. If the PF is an enhancement, a grand embellishment of a full and happy life--that's fine. But, when it substitues for what you really do or say to real in the flesh, love and life. That's a problem.

That's YOUR problem.

And I ain't your shrink. \:D
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 04:50 PM

Tom, I quite agree (and thanks for saying it nicely). It IS very unhealthy if one relates more on and through the computer, than to people close at hand. Even just excessive googling or eBaying (both little problem areas I have \:D ).

I was reacting to "it's not real life" (and inevitable extrapolation, that the people and relationships are not real either. ).

It's a common "chill out" dismissal, and I think it's very inaccurate. As we all demonstrate in spades, even you.

Ariel \:\)
Posted by: Improviso

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 05:00 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jodi:

What if Improv had said, instead: "I find the thought of sex with someone of my same gender distastful, it's not a fear, it's an opinion."?
[/b]
Jodi,

May I use you to wordsmith my posts. You captured the thought I was going for precisely.

It's not the first time I have been accused of being a bull in a china shop.
Posted by: Improviso

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 05:04 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:

Listen: Improv was over the line with his remarks. [/b]
Maybe so.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 05:10 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Improviso:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jodi:

What if Improv had said, instead: "I find the thought of sex with someone of my same gender distastful, it's not a fear, it's an opinion."?
[/b]
Jodi,

May I use you to wordsmith my posts. You captured the thought I was going for precisely.

It's not the first time I have been accused of being a bull in a china shop. [/b]
Damn! you sound like me! At least in the first sentence does. (The rest falls off a bit--but that's OK.)

Well written. \:\)

I am indeed curious about a soul that could hammer a sentence so fine. Personally, I often craft fine lines, but as pearls before swine; no one notices. \:\(
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 05:24 PM

you just need more commas tom... and a speller.
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 05:27 PM

Improv,

You have, as you know, been the subject of much controversy.

Without being specific (unless you feel wildly daring), how's about answering the question about whether you are a prevous poster? Maybe even a current one. You are, after all, cloaked in the anonymity of your 13-post infant alias.

And - might as well go for broke - if (as I assume) you are not a newby, are you a frequent poster past and/or present, or just a sporadic one?

Why did you suddenly swoop down and zero in on Bernard, in the opinion part of the PW site? We have no indication about why else you would be present on a piano chat room. No piano in your profile...etc.

Not "who are you"? (too much to expect, I guess) - but at least, "WHY are you?"

Ariel
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 05:31 PM

an imposter!
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 05:47 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Improv,

You have, as you know, been the subject of much controversy.

Without being specific (unless you feel wildly daring), how's about answering the question about whether you are a prevous poster? Maybe even a current one. You are, after all, cloaked in the anonymity of your 13-post infant alias.

And - might as well go for broke - if (as I assume) you are not a newby, are you a frequent poster past and/or present, or just a sporadic one?

Why did you suddenly swoop down and zero in on Bernard, in the opinion part of the PW site? We have no indication about why else you would be present on a piano chat room. No piano in your profile...etc.

Not "who are you"? (too much to expect, I guess) - but at least, "WHY are you?"

Ariel [/b]
WOAH!!!! Little Lady. "No piano in your profile...etc." Let's not be National Socialists, here. You should be ASHAMED of yourself. Who cares who Improv is. WE ALL HAVE OUR OPINIONS around here. Maybe he can't afford a Steinway like you and me.

You're are being rude. Let Improv express his/her points. Do not judge lest you be judged.

Ariel, Jesus said that. Listen to him. \:D
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 06:05 PM

Ariel psychologied:
 Quote:
Of course, it's real life.
Maybe for some.... ;\)
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 06:13 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Ariel psychologied:
 Quote:
Of course, it's real life.
Maybe for some.... ;\) [/b]
Well said, Brother. That's EXACTLY the point.
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 07:17 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
WE ALL HAVE OUR OPINIONS around here. Maybe he can't afford a Steinway like you and me.
[/b]
I think Improv has a Steinway....

jf
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 07:22 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jodi:
Don't know how I missed the end of this thread, couldn't figure out where the last straw for Bernard was.....

Bernard, All my best to you, Bernard.

\:\) Jodi [/b]
Nicely put Jodi. I missed Imrov's intro and really had no idea what was going on here until I read your summary. You should weigh in more often on some of these threads.......and, Bernard, you should stick around. Just ignore the stuff that bothers you. (I know, easy for ME to say.) I'd kind of like to get to know you better.

jf
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 07:34 PM

 Quote:
posted by JF: I think Improv has a Steinway....
[/b]
KMA \:D Not me. He/she's interesing, though. I NEVER would be that obvious.

JF, You insult me.
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 07:41 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
posted by JF: I think Improv has a Steinway....
[/b]
KMA \:D Not me. He/she's interesing, though. I NEVER would be that obvious.

JF, You insult me. [/b]
Brother TomK, I tried my best!!
How did you know I wasn't talking about Ariel?

jf
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 07:43 PM

 Quote:
JF:
I think Improv has a Steinway....[/b]
With only white keys and bass notes?

:p
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 07:57 PM

No problems. I'm not Improv.. As Frank is my wittness.
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 08:19 PM

It's you Tomk. And I am disgusted - to borrow the title from another thread. At first I thought it was someone else - I won't say who, but Gryphon knows, and stupid guess that was. It all stacks up. It's you Tomk. You'll never admit it, because you see what a mess you've made. I really, really feel sick about this thread and the mean-spirtedness exhibited here - yet again.

Bernard, I look forward to meeting you you in Haverhill. I just wish Benedict could be there too.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 08:34 PM

kathy. You are a Fool. You have had your conspiracy theories up the Yin Yang about me for months... I was this guy, I was that guy. Get a LIFE. I have NEVER been anyone else than TomK (except my three posts as Bud--to make a pass at apple!)

You a are a Fool.

Your husband is just as bad. You are both calling me a liar. Hay, I'll all for kidding around, I tease a little, but this is serious.

You are both vicious, mean and maybe evil.

Ask Frank if I'm Impov. He can say.

FOOL! FOOL! FOOL!

If I don't like you I, "I" TomK will say so. Did it long before you showed up here. I say what I say and that's it. I NEVER was anyone else.

NEVER! You have really insulted me. And that takes a lot.

FOOL!
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 08:38 PM

Well, Improv, come clean then! Because, Improv is clearly someone who has been amongst us for much longer than 12 posts. Do prove me wrong! I would welcome that and humbly bow out of this sickening fray.

P.S. And for anyone who might wonder, I don't think this is the least bit funny anymore.
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 08:42 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
Well, Improv, come clean then! Because, Improv is clearly someone who has been amongst us for much longer than 12 posts. Do prove me wrong! I would welcome that and humbly bow out of this sickening fray.

P.S. And for anyone who might wonder, I don't think this is the least bit funny anymore. [/b]
Fool kathy--neither do I.
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 09:00 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
kathy. You are a Fool. You have had your conspiracy theories up the Yin Yang about me for months... I was this guy, I was that guy. Get a LIFE. I have NEVER been anyone else than TomK (except my three posts as Bud--to make a pass at apple!)

You a are a Fool.

Your husband is just as bad. You are both calling me a liar. Hay, I'll all for kidding around, I tease a little, but this is serious.

You are both vicious, mean and maybe evil.

Ask Frank if I'm Impov. He can say.

FOOL! FOOL! FOOL!

If I don't like you I, "I" TomK will say so. Did it long before you showed up here. I say what I say and that's it. I NEVER was anyone else.

NEVER! You have really insulted me. And that takes a lot.

FOOL! [/b]
EVIL?
TomK, I was just foolin around with you. What is this all about?

jf
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 09:05 PM

JF,

Don't believe it for a second, but what that hell:
:p \:D

No hard feelings. \:\)
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 09:08 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
JF,

:p \:D [/b]
OK, if you say so....that was quite a rant!

jf
Posted by: jodi

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 09:22 PM

Would you guys quit confusing me?!!

(insert dizzy eyed smiley that Gryphon always uses) Jodi
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 09:26 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jodi:
Would you guys quit confusing me?!!

(insert dizzy eyed smiley that Gryphon always uses) Jodi [/b]
Jodi,

I can assure you that you are not the only one who is confused.

jf
Posted by: jodi

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 09:30 PM

I really do believe that Tomk is not Improv. He has no problem saying exactly what he thinks under his own handle, why on earth would he create a new one?

Jodi
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 10:29 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
It's you Tomk. And I am disgusted - to borrow the title from another thread. At first I thought it was someone else - I won't say who, but Gryphon knows, and stupid guess that was. It all stacks up. It's you Tomk. You'll never admit it, because you see what a mess you've made. I really, really feel sick about this thread and the mean-spirtedness exhibited here - yet again.
[/b]
Girlfriend's not playful enough for my tastes, but, who am I to say?

Anyway, I'm not Improv, I like him, but he's not me. kathy is a snot, a peg or two below lovable, but I'm not married to her, so I don't care. All's well that ends well. \:\)
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 10:35 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
kathy is a snot, a peg or two below lovable, but I'm not married to her, so I don't care. All's well that ends well. \:\) [/b]
Yer takin all this much too seriously and personally, my bro....

jf
Posted by: Tom--K

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 10:42 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
kathy is a snot, a peg or two below lovable, but I'm not married to her, so I don't care. All's well that ends well. \:\) [/b]
Yer takin all this much too seriously and personally, my bro....

jf [/b]
Maybe, maybe not. I need your old lady to come sayin' she 'a sorry. \:D Not you. I can here her in the background..."well then write..."

If she doesn't apologize, tell her I will publish the contents of our PM's. She is of course free to do the same with me. \:\) You will notice I have never told her anything that isn't common knowledge, and she? Well, let her decide. \:\)
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 10:47 PM

 Quote:
KathyK:
It's you Tomk. And I am disgusted - to borrow the title from another thread. At first I thought it was someone else - I won't say who, but Gryphon knows, and stupid guess that was. It all stacks up. It's you Tomk. You'll never admit it, because you see what a mess you've made. I really, really feel sick about this thread and the mean-spirtedness exhibited here - yet again.
[/b]
TomK, you are amazingly patient in your responses.

I thought lawyers had this "innocent until..." perspective.
Maybe that's only for Guantanamo Bay?
Posted by: JBryan

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 10:59 PM

Taking TomK too seriously can be hazardous. He does not take himself all that seriously. That's (just one thing) what I like about him.
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 11:00 PM

 Quote:
It's you Tomk. And I am disgusted - to borrow the title from another thread. At first I thought it was someone else - I won't say who, but Gryphon knows, and stupid guess that was. It all stacks up. It's you Tomk. You'll never admit it, because you see what a mess you've made. I really, really feel sick about this thread and the mean-spirtedness exhibited here - yet again.
Who is Improviso? Who knows? I don't, but I do believe it's not Tom, or he wouldn't have suggested Frank so quickly.

Maybe Improviso is Lazy Pianist in a conservative mood.

Sockpuppets are harmless, no matter what name they go by.... :p ...well, that's what I've been told.

Repeatedly. \:\)
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 11:07 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
kathy is a snot, a peg or two below lovable, but I'm not married to her, so I don't care. All's well that ends well. \:\) [/b]
Yer takin all this much too seriously and personally, my bro....

jf [/b]
Maybe, maybe not. I need your old lady to come sayin' she 'a sorry. \:D Not you. I can here her in the background..."well then write..."

If she doesn't apologize, tell her I will publish the contents of our PM's. She is of course free to do the same with me. \:\) You will notice I have never told her anything that isn't common knowledge, and she? Well, let her decide. \:\) [/b]
I have no idea what you have, but publish away. I do not speak for K but I can predict that your ultimatum will not yeild much.....

what the heck is going on with with TomK??? Publish private messages? These threats seem so.......out of character...

are you really TomK or has someone else takin over your.......

jf
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 11:10 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
I can here her in the background..."well then write..."

If she doesn't apologize [/b]
No, no she has been asleep for two hours. This is just me and I barely understand what is going on. Jodi, can you explain.......

jf
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 11:13 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
If she doesn't apologize, tell her I will publish the contents of our PM's. She is of course free to do the same with me. [/b]
Go ahead. Is this really you?

jf
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 11:13 PM

this goes to shows to go what a bad thing imposting is.

Impro - you might be having fun but some people are not because of you.


it's not tomk - I can spot his flirbles from 10 feet.
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 11:17 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
If she doesn't apologize, tell her I will publish the contents of our PM's. She is of course free to do the same with me. [/b]
Go ahead. Is this really you?

jf [/b]
Go ahead. PUBLISH.
What kind of lame threat is that?

jf
Posted by: .rvaga*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 11:18 PM

If I could pretend to be wise. . .

Don't let something like this end up too ugly between friends. Yes, just Forum Friends, but still - arguments aside - friends.

Improversio vs. Bernard is taking a back seat to the secondary explosion that might occur.

Whoever the Improversio is, he/she must be having a good laugh. This raises the ugliness from sockpuppet to troll, when this type of exchange is the result (it's like watching water come to a boil).
-----------

So. . . . . .how about some new children sex plays.
Anyone heard of a good one??

I'll back out of this after posting my 2-cents.

Maybe I'll go see if Shantinik wants to arm-wrestle. . .
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 11:20 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rvaga:
If I could pretend to be wise. . .

Don't let something like this end up too ugly between friends. Yes, just Forum Friends, but still - arguments aside - friends.

Improversio vs. Bernard is taking a back seat to the secondary explosion that might occur.

Whoever the Improversio is, he/she must be having a good laugh. This raises the ugliness from sockpuppet to troll, when this type of exchange is the result (it's like watching water come to a boil).
-----------

So. . . . . .how about some new children sex plays.
Anyone heard of a good one??

I'll back out of this after posting my 2-cents.

Maybe I'll go see if Shantinik wants to arm-wrestle. . . [/b]
Well noted bob, but I just don't have the beginging of a clue what is going on and Tom with a K my friend seems possessed with another....

jf
Posted by: JBryan

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 11:22 PM

move along now. Nothing to see here.
Posted by: JBryan

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 11:24 PM

 Quote:
Whoever the Improversio is, he/she must be having a good laugh. This raises the ugliness from sockpuppet to troll, when this type of exchange is the result (it's like watching water come to a boil).[/b]
Or a train wreck after you pulled up the rail.
Posted by: jodi

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 11:29 PM

WHAT IS GOING ON??!!!

Sheesh, I go hunting for hex signs for 20 minutes, and we've now got PWW III on our hands? Tom, Jack, GO TO BED. This will all seem silly in the morning.

(Tommie, you should be ashamed of yourself, threatening to publish PM's? And I thought I had PMS. Yikes.)

goodnite, all.
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 11:44 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jodi:
WHAT IS GOING ON??!!!

Sheesh, I go hunting for hex signs for 20 minutes, and we've now got PWW III on our hands? Tom, Jack, GO TO BED. This will all seem silly in the morning.

(Tommie, you should be ashamed of yourself, threatening to publish PM's? And I thought I had PMS. Yikes.)

goodnite, all. [/b]
OK MOM, I am going to bed....and I appreciate your posts or interventions and value your advice...now and tomorrow.

nite

jf
Posted by: Jack Frost

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/25/04 11:47 PM

nite

jf
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/26/04 08:34 AM

TomK, thou protesteth too much, me thinks. Go ahead and publish my PMs. There is nothing in them that I would be ashamed to share with my husband and that that he doesn't already know. I wrote them to you as a friend, sharing a personal experience that I thought might resonate with you and Apple. No, I obviously wouldn't blast them over the internet for just anyone to read (silly me, regarding you as a friend) - - but you know what, I really don't give a rat's **** if you do.

I am steaming mad about what happened here with Bernard. I would not be true to myself if I looked the other way as if nothing happened. Maybe I am dead wrong in my conclusions, but you've pretended to be others in the past, I've already limply witnessed you cruelly and gleefully run Benedict out of the coffee room and assault Nunatax similarily, and the syntax and grammatical errors, in Improv's posts and yours, as well as the timing (He's always been online when you have) lead me to my conclusion. Improv is no one new to this coffee room, and whoever he is, is is despicable. If Improv had any spine, he'd show himself - but, I doubt very much that will happen.

So, go ahead, post my PMs. Your doing so will only seal my conclusions.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/26/04 09:45 AM

Sometimes Kathy- when dealing with people who like to fight it's best not to get them all wound up. Best for humanity in general.

Tomk - when you are not nice - that's your life.

Everything is connected.
Posted by: jodi

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/26/04 09:47 AM

You know, this really serves no useful purpose. I'm going to say it one more time. I don't think Tomk is Improv. I've also been totally convinced that certain identities were the same person in this place just like you seem to be now kathy, I even did searches on unusual phrases to prove my point. I was completely wrong. Let Improv hang himself. You guys need to move on.

Jodi
Posted by: Improviso

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/26/04 11:57 AM

This thread has been absolutely amazing, given the original theme of "tolerance". Grown adults reduced to bickering, naming calling childen.

Before anyone teaches my children about tolerance, practice what you preach. This thread started as an interesting conversation on what was acceptable to be teaching small children in schools and quite quickly degraded to a witch hunt. I would like to personally apologize to Larry for that occurring. I never intended to hijack his thread.

Excuse my ignorance of proper etiquette here. I assumed when Bernard reduced himself to insulting Larry with "you pathetic little twerp" or "Idiot...You're a pathetic little man", that the gloves were officially off in the conversation.

How dare I, a newbie, to question Bernard's combative tactics. I didn't see anyone call him on the carpet for that. I was very direct in expressing a very strong feeling I have on the subject. I did not flower it, dilute it, or convey the message in a politically correct way.

I admitted earlier in this thread to Jodi, that she conveyed the thought in a much more elegant way than I. Castrate me for style, not content.

It was actually Gryphon who planted the seed with his comment "Bernard, for what it's worth, I don't think you were attacked by a complete stranger. But I could be wrong." Bernard builds on the myth with "Thirdly, what I now consider the most probable, Improviso is a sock puppet. If that is the case, he/she, as someone said earlier, is a coward." And KathyK absolutely is convinced she knows the truth when she says "Why does everyone keep saying "welcome to the forum" when we know that Improviso is no newcomer to the forum? I think I know who."

For the record, Gryphon later got it right when he said "If Improviso is a sockpuppet, then I agree with you that that is wrong, even though Improviso may be a sweet woman who doesn't want to be identified as someone who thinks the homosexual lifestyle is utterly disgusting. On the other hand, maybe he's a long time reader, first-time poster."

To you Gryphon, I say "on the other hand, you are wise beyond your years."

I am (was) a long time reader and first time poster. I have never posted here before under any other name. Before I could say such, the witch hunt began. Intrigued, I sat back to see where this would go. Why? I was called a "troll" by Elana and told to "bugger off" by Ariel. I questioned the labeling and was told by Phlebas that I was "just a jerk, and an overly defensive one." OK I reasoned. I'll be a little more "thick-skinned" in the future. No need to rebutt every arrow slung my way.

In the end, I too was puzzled by Bernard's outburst and leaving. Where the hell did that come from. But I would bet that Bernard is still reading this thread. To you Bernard I say, your battle will be long and mostly uphill, but you will never prevail if you quit. I'll stand in your way because I hold my belief just as strongly as you hold yours. That's the reality of the times we live in.

Tolerance? A pretty hard concept to grasp even as adults, huh? Imagine how tough that is for our kids.

Teach tolerance to parents. The kids primary concern is they just want to fit in.
Posted by: johnmoonlight

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/27/04 11:21 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jodi:
You know, this really serves no useful purpose. I'm going to say it one more time. I don't think Tomk is Improv. I've also been totally convinced that certain identities were the same person in this place just like you seem to be now kathy, I even did searches on unusual phrases to prove my point. I was completely wrong. Let Improv hang himself. You guys need to move on.

Jodi [/b]
Well said Jodi. About a year ago there was similar suspicion that Tommy was someone else. That was before I knew and respected him. I spent alot of time trying to prove that he was the other person but all I proved was just the opposite...that he is the one and only.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/27/04 12:28 PM

nothin worse than being falsely accused.
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/27/04 07:08 PM

Well, Apple, I guess that's my cue. If I'm wrong, then I take it back. What really bugs me is that we'll probably never know, because Improp, whoever he is, is not only a mean trouble maker, but also a coward. And, I have no doubt whatsoever that he has been with us AND posting for a good long while.

To TomK, if I am wrong, I apologize for the accusation. I don't apologize for expressing my feelings about how mean you have been to certain people here in past, including your recent outrageous threat.

I do apologize to Benedict, Nunatax, and others who have been pilloried here in the past for not having stood up more strongly and publicy in their support especially against those who seem to do it with impugnity because of their charm, wit and/or apparent status here.
Posted by: Larry

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/27/04 07:14 PM

I do apologize to Benedict, Nunatax, and others who have been pilloried here in the past for not having stood up more strongly and publicy in their support especially against those who seem to do it with impugnity because of their charm, wit and/or apparent status here.[/b]


Oh, stuff it, Kathy. I get tired of people bringing things up after the fact and taking it all out of context in order to place blame. When it's someone *you* like, you conveniently forget everything said before the part you like to drag out and hammer people over the head with. Nunatax wasn't an innocent player in that debate. He is now a most enjoyable poster, and the chip on his shoulder is gone. Benedict was damn near close to being a troll at times. So go save some other whale.
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/27/04 07:47 PM

apple:
 Quote:
nothin worse than being falsely accused. [/b]
Except being falsely accused of falsely accusing.
Posted by: apple*

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/27/04 10:42 PM

that's just a symptom of "nowayamiwrongitis". \:\) \:\) \:\) \:\)
Posted by: Jolly

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/28/04 09:13 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
I do apologize to Benedict, Nunatax, and others who have been pilloried here in the past for not having stood up more strongly and publicy in their support especially against those who seem to do it with impugnity because of their charm, wit and/or apparent status here.[/b]


Oh, stuff it, Kathy. I get tired of people bringing things up after the fact and taking it all out of context in order to place blame. When it's someone *you* like, you conveniently forget everything said before the part you like to drag out and hammer people over the head with. Nunatax wasn't an innocent player in that debate. He is now a most enjoyable poster, and the chip on his shoulder is gone. Benedict was damn near close to being a troll at times. So go save some other whale. [/b]
Here, here!
Posted by: Ariel

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/29/04 04:07 AM

Aye, Aye Sir, Cap'n Ahab!

Posted by: lucy in the sky_dup1

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 03/29/04 07:00 AM

Ariel, you are too much! \:D \:D \:D \:D \:D
Posted by: David Burton

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 04/01/04 02:07 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by johnmoonlight:
David, excellent post!
I disagree, however, that homosexuality is NOT innate. I firmly believe that it IS although I can't prove it. [/b]
So sorry Doc, I had to read more of this really very incredible thread: managed to get up to page 15 and actually accumulated 25 pages of quotes so far, oh dear! And it’s now nearly 2 am again and I can’t go on to Mahlerian lengths. But alas you’ve provided me something I can fairly succinctly answer, and move this thread back to the top once more...

I am not decided on whether homosexuality is innate or not. Like you, I suspect that it IS innate, even if no physical proof yet exists, and NOTHING short of physical proof would satisfy me completely on this matter. But my point was that if homosexuality is innate then perhaps other less desirable human behavior patterns are as well, some of which may be far less socially redeemable than even homophobia, the existence of which this thread has amply convinced me. I am, you see, at bottom, deeply skeptical about most things. We know so little. We do not know what instinct is, what constitutes the physiological basis of human drives, etc. although I think we will know more in 20 years than we know now. I should think studies in human endocrinology, especially in developmental stages, will hold promise of showing us some of what is now only to be guessed at. I hope that clears things up a bit.

I can hear the hackles now, “Please spare us the 25 pages of quotes!”

Yes, with honest admonitions of goodwill and civility toward all, may I bid you all a fond good night until we chance to cross mental swords again on another such weighty topic as this.

Tomorrow night, I might get through the last five, or six, or seven pages. For some of us there is torture, for others there’s the coffee room!
Posted by: jodi

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 04/01/04 09:57 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by David Burton:
For some of us there is torture, for others there’s the coffee room! [/b]
:D \:D \:D

David, you really are one of my favorites.

\:\) Jodi
Posted by: Chris Aher

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 04/01/04 11:43 AM

David,

This reminds me of a wonderful Russell Baker essay in which he describes his efforts to read Proust in terms of an expedition to climb Mt. Everest.

 Quote:
Originally posted by David Burton:
So sorry Doc, I had to read more of this really very incredible thread: managed to get up to page 15 and actually accumulated 25 pages of quotes so far, oh dear! And it’s now nearly 2 am again and I can’t go on to Mahlerian lengths. [/b]
Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it.
Russell Baker
Posted by: kathyk

Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet? - 04/01/04 01:44 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by David Burton:
. . . and move this thread back to the top once more...

I[/b]
Thanks David. :rolleyes: This is a thread which many (at least I for one) would gladly have seen sink into archival oblivion.