Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music

Posted by: SilentKoala

Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/16/07 02:32 PM

Okay, I'm posting this because it despereately needs to be said, given some of the posts I've noticed around here dissing certain genres of music.

I'm sick of classical musicians who act like modern genres of music are somehow "inferior" to classical music. You know, people who say things like "rap is for retards" or act like modern rock is not as muscially brilliant as classical music. By the definition of the word "music", this isn't even true; but more importantly, such people refuse to accept the fact that these other forms of music take as much if not more talent and creativity as any other form.

It takes a lot more creativity for a DJ to mix his own beats than it does for some asian kid with glasses to sit down and mathematically reproduce a classical score with no emotion. Think rapping is for retards? Why don't you write something and we'll compare it to something eminem wrote and see who really has more talent. You have no idea how hard it is to do what he does - I know I never could. And think hard rocking is easy? Where's your grammy then?

I should add that I have tried learning guitar before, and I'll say right now it is a lot harder than piano. I had more difficulty learning basic guitar songs than I did learning Chopin's 23rd etude. Consequently, I have as much respect for Eddie Van Halen as I do for Yundi Li, and rightly so.

You see the same thing with some Jazz musicians in reference to classical music, sometimes they'll act like classical music is inferior to jazz because there's no improvisation or whatnot. Then they call fake books "real books" like they have something to prove (which is ironic since doing so demonstrates a fear of inferiority - if they were better it would be self-evident and they wouldn't need to say so).

I love all forms of music, because I'm an artist at heart, not a poser concerned with perceptions. Music is art, and art is reflection of self, nothing more, nothing less. Mozart's music and Eminem's music are equally good works of art, because they are both forms of self-reflection expressed through an artistic outlet. Both of their creations required a lot of talent and hard work to create. You may prefer one over the other, but neither is "better" or "more real music".

I don't know why some people have to be so snotty. Maybe society can only tolerate so much creativity at a time, but I think the most likely answer is that some people are just fake -they are so concerned with image and perception that they can't look beyond the surface and see things for what they really are.[/b]

The bottom line is, if classical music is the only type of music you like, or jazz is the only type of music you like, that's fine - too each his own. But don't act like other types of musicians are somehow "inferior" or aren't real musicians.
Posted by: namekuseijin

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/16/07 02:57 PM

"Think rapping is for retards? Why don't you write something and we'll compare it to something eminem wrote and see who really has more talent."

This sounds like a ****ing contest: "oh! i sure **** better than eminem!"

"You have no idea how hard it is to do what he does - I know I never could. And think hard rocking is easy? Where's your grammy then?"

Some of the best music there presents almost no technical difficulties whatsoever. High art doesn't mean it to be difficult or innaccessible to most people.

BTW, the Grammy doesn't award the best or more original, just the most popular or in vogue or old musicians for a lifetime worth of work...

I don't think rappers are bad or inferior musicians. I believe it's a fact they are not musicians at all.

rant off.
Posted by: JBiegel

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/16/07 02:58 PM

I find it interesting how rap music uses canons, and the first rap piece was probably the song, 'Trouble' from "The Music Man" rapped by Robert Preston. I like the fusion of hip-hop and classical--something I want to explore with the right producers. Perhaps you are correct that we don't realize how hard it is for some of these guys in various genres to do what they do. When you watch American Idol, and hear the out-of-tune notes, and the uninspired renditions of songs we know all too well, and some that are amazingly inspired, you then realize that it's not so easy to do. I have found a deep respect amongst my rocker friends like David Foster and Keith Emerson, Billy Joel and Mike 'Punch' Harper who revere the classical greats and talk about them more than I do! After all, their music wouldn't be what it is without their utmost respect for the eternal masters. Thos guys are far from snotty, I can tell you that. Billy once told me, 'I was lying back and listening to Beethoven's Symphonies and thought, I'm so insignificant!' Well, he's a gifted musician in his own right, for sure.
Posted by: Reaper978

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/16/07 03:38 PM

 Quote:
It takes a lot more creativity for a DJ to mix his own beats than it does for some asian kid with glasses to sit down and mathematically reproduce a classical score with no emotion.
Firstly, it takes a lot of skill to gain the faculties needed to read and play music correctly, even without the emotion. Secondly, some asian kid with glasses mathematically reproducing the score without emotion is hardly a concert-worthy performance.

 Quote:
I should add that I have tried learning guitar before, and I'll say right now it is a lot harder than piano.
Haha, you think you can get away with a comment like that on this forum? Alright, guitar is written on one stave, piano is written on two. This in itself creates much more difficulty in the reading aspect. Sure, the same notes are on different places on the fretboard, but the piano also has quite a bit more range, so there's a lot of ledger lines as well. But of course, the reading isn't the only thing. Getting a piece to concert performance level is an extremely involved process, one that I'm sure you've never experienced because of the tone of your post. I'd get into the details, but I doubt you'd care.

As far as Chopin's 23rd etude is concerned, let's see you get it to concert levels that compares with the best in the world. Then we'll talk difficulty.

Now, I for one do not consider rap an actual genre of music. It's simply words set to a beat. There's no melody, harmony, counterpoint, etc. Without some sort of discernible beat and melodic content, I don't consider it music. That's just me. Sure, some may create fantastic beats and great lyrics, but there's not real melody or harmony to be found. It is NOT MUSIC.

As far as Jazz and Classical are concerned, I find that the best musicians can both play from the score and improvise and compose themselves. Look at Cziffra.

Don't get me wrong, I love all sorts of music, from the good metal to Coldplay. If there's real feeling, struggle, anguish, etc. I probably will like it. But it's not my fault that many of these pop songs are simply three chords put to lyrics. Practically anyone with some sense of taste and poetry can come up with a good three-chord song and lyrics. Practically no one can come up with a 5 voice fugue with an excellent subject, countersubject, various well-developed episodes, effortless flow, a subject that can be explored and ripped apart and transposed easily... not to mention that some of this stuff ALSO had lyrics on top of it (Mozart's requiem), and if you wish to sing this music, you must know the rudiments of multiple languages. Come on, the technical challenges of classical music are extreme. Far more impressive than yet more extremely fast shredding on distorted guitar by Steve Vai.

Some bands I like (who actually use classical elements, metal itself is atonal with harsh chromaticism, something that classical pioneered in the 20th century, and even hundreds of years earlier with Gesualdo's madrigals):

Strapping Young Lad
Winds
Behemoth
Old Man's Child
Coldplay
To\Die\For
Type O Negative
Dimmu Borgir
Posted by: SilentKoala

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/16/07 03:43 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by namekuseijin:

This sounds like a ****ing contest: "oh! i sure **** better than eminem!"[/b]
See, you only concern yourself with sterotypes and perceptions. The question still remains, can you write something as lyrically brilliant as he can? Don't dodge the question with an ad hominem this time.

 Quote:

Some of the best music there presents almost no technical difficulties whatsoever. High art doesn't mean it to be difficult or innaccessible to most people.

BTW, the Grammy doesn't award the best or more original, just the most popular or in vogue or old musicians for a lifetime worth of work...[/b]
Say that when you can play the guitar solo from the grammy-nominated Loney Day by System of a Down.

A song also does not have to be technically difficult to be good music. Chopin's 4th prelude is a piece of cake to play but muscially it is a work of genius. A similar statement can be made about Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven.

 Quote:

I don't think rappers are bad or inferior musicians. I believe it's a fact they are not musicians at all.[/b]
Can you explain why they are not musicians? (I'm going to guess you can't). Their art requires rhythm, it requires rhyme, it requires background harmonies and melodies that fit the mood of what they're trying to convey; over all it requires a unique combination of many of the elements of music.

From Wikipedia:
 Quote:
"Music is an art form that involves organised sounds and silence. It is expressed in terms of pitch (which includes melody and harmony), rhythm (which includes tempo and meter), and the quality of sound (which includes timbre, articulation, dynamics, and texture). Music may also involve generative forms in time through the construction of patterns and combinations of natural stimuli, principally sound. Music may be used for artistic or aesthetic, communicative, entertainment, or ceremonial purposes. The definition of what constitutes music varies according to culture and social context, with varied interpretations of the term being accepted under sub-genres of the art."
 Quote:

rant off. [/b]
If you disagree, all you have to do is say you disagree and say why. When you resort to personal attacks such as "rant off", it just proves that you can't argue with it on an intellectual level and reinforces the validity of what I said.
Posted by: namekuseijin

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/16/07 10:47 PM

"The question still remains, can you write something as lyrically brilliant as he can?"

Like the guy above well put it: "It's simply words set to a beat."

So, yes, I'm quite certain I can write much more "lyrically brilliant" "poetry" than him, which isn't to say much since being better than crap is not guarantee of quality. Though I won't be a big star as I lack the right contacts, the oportunity, the media exposure and the attitude and visual flair which make up for a lack of real talent.

Music there's none there.

"Say that when you can play the guitar solo from the grammy-nominated"

Empty virtuosism is a hallmark of mediocrity. Many works by Liszt and Paganini are not high art, but mere exhibitionism.

"Can you explain why they are not musicians?"

They don't play instruments. Well, that's ok, because they sing, right? Wrong, they simply talk through a beat. So, they don't sing nor play instruments. What do they do then? Oh, yes, right, they dance like monkeys, wear funky clothes, look rather ****ed off and throw money at the camera. Yep, sure a hallmark of musicianship.

Any basic "harmony", perhaps a few chords barely heard in the background, just behing all the glam and the dance beats, is surely not worked by them, but a post-effect edited in by the smart marketeers from the recording industry...
Posted by: PerformingYak

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/19/07 11:00 PM

not all of the rap artists around rely on their management and recording industry techs to do their musical work for them.
I'm not going to enter strongly into this arguement but the rappers that talk THROUGH the beat are not the good ones, the rappers that create the beat and rhythms with their words are.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't music, music is changing.... what about techno?? (just to throw a spanner in the works)
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/19/07 11:02 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by JBiegel:
I find it interesting how rap music uses canons, and the first rap piece was probably the song, 'Trouble' from "The Music Man" rapped by Robert Preston. [/b]
Why stop there? Why not go all the way back to 17th century recitative?
Posted by: Jeanne W

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/19/07 11:13 PM

here we go again...

Jeanne W
Posted by: namekuseijin

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/19/07 11:40 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by PerformingYak:

but the rappers that talk THROUGH the beat are not the good ones, the rappers that create the beat and rhythms with their words are.
[/b]
ah, I see the difference! It's a whole new level of musicianship indeed when rather than paying a drummer to punctuate the rhythm you emphasize some syllables here and there while you talk.

 Quote:
Originally posted by PerformingYak:

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't music, music is changing....
[/b]
It's not music changing, it's people's new low standards of acceptance dictating the market. I'm sure the next hit will be a band formed by dogs: some bark, others howl, and others pee at the public.

 Quote:
Originally posted by PerformingYak:

what about techno??
[/b]
why stop there? what about a jet turbine? or Atari2600 blip-blops? There're plenty of great sounding stuff out there for rough ears...
Posted by: JBiegel

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 05:34 AM

I was about to type the recitative in my reply above then stopped, since for the most part, they function as prose which is sung to chords held for specific periods without steady beats to allow the singer to sing the words according to their prosody against these chords placed in a quasi improvisatory fashion by the composer. The 'sprechtstimme' in Schonberg goes the next step and the 'Trouble' tune from 'The Music Man' has a definite steady beat which must keep going and the 'Harold Hill' must conform to it, rather than the recitative chords adhering to the singer.
Posted by: Jeanne W

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 07:04 AM

(This is kinda long -sorry. I just dashed this off this morning and have to go to work now.)

I'd like to enter this discussion. A few disclaimers.

First, I, myself, do not have a particularly high opinion of rap music and some experimental or progressive (whatever it might be called) types of music. I offer this so people will know I do not have a bias towards/for rap or those kinds of music.

Secondly, I understand and believe that everyone has and is entitled to his/her own opinion.

To get on with it...

Some of our PW members seem to be trashing certain types of music or particular pieces of music and/or the musician's themselves - their ability to compose and play music.

Some thoughts on the subject.

When we talk about music some things are factual, but others are more subjective. Some things are "facts"; others are "opinion".

Music can stand alone; be enjoyed for what it is.

Music can be "evaluated" and comparisons and value judgements made.

What criteria is being used for the comparisons and evaluations and value judgements?

Comparing any kind of music to another only proves it is similar or not - - unless you are saying one type of music is the standard by which all music should be judged.

Saying one type of music is the standard by which all music should be judged is a value judgement; an opinion.

"Music" can also stand on its own merits. We can just simply examine the music itself and make a value judgement, not really comparing it to anything else. Even with no comparisons being made, not everyone is going to appreciate or like it.

The way I see it:

We can discuss facts: that some music in comparison to others is more or less simple, complex, organized, etc. but...

Once a person says something is "good", "bad", or otherwise, they are entering the realm of opinion.

Saying a particular type of music or piece of music is "garbage" is a value judgement; an opinion.

Opinions are not universal.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but opinions can be put forth in respectful or offensive ways.

Having strong opinions is understandable and can be a good thing, but saying something is "garbage" is an extreme way of expressing an opinion and is likely to offend people. It seems to me expressing one's opinions in that manner is meanspirited, inconsiderate and maybe even exhibits an intolerance of other people. It's easy then to understand why people get hot under the collar.

I think also sometimes we are actually in agreement here with one another but do not realize it - or, at least, not as "at odds" with one another as we think. Because we may not be expressing ourselves in a clear enough manner. Which can lead to misunderstandings that rile people. For example…

I believe everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but if a person is stating an opinion, it is helpful to point out to everyone that is exactly what he/she is doing. Especially when taking an extreme stance. Saying something is "garbage" without attaching some kind of disclaimer to the effect that "this is my opinion" makes it sound like that's some kind of "blanket statement" that is being presented as "fact" - some kind of universal truth - rather than what it is - OPINION.

I would love to see or participate in a respectful discussion of the different types of music. One in which we discuss "facts" as "facts" and offer "opinions" as "opinions" in a civilized manner. Where people express themselves in a way that makes it clear that their opinions are just that. Where people don't make it sound as though their OPINIONS are declarations of FACTS i.e. prounouncements coming from "on high." And I don't think it's constructive or useful to participate in a discussion or debate in a way that incites the wrath of the other people you are trying to talk to.

This is a long rambling post. Maybe it will have some value, though.
Jeanne W
Posted by: JBiegel

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 08:28 AM

Thanks, Jeanne. Entirely why I took a few moments to venture into this thread--if you re-visit my posts, you'll see a support for the genre--as in every style, there are opinions of like and dislike--this is normal. The original post reflects the attitude of some toward various styles. In my opinion, the topic simply means that people should express their opinions in a positive way if they have something nice to say or especially interesting to add to the conversation. Exhibiting an elitism toward any style of music merely reflects the negative, which will gain nothing. Adding factual data about a specific subject is always of interest, and can be a springboard to other related topics which add to interesting conversation. Once it gets personal, watch out.
Posted by: U S A P T

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 08:45 AM

Nothing like getting your point across by attacking the other side.

Maybe when you are old enough to go to college you might think about taking a class called "Critical Thinking." Then study well the logical fallacies that make up MOST flawed arguments -- like yours.

Yours is ad hominem: shoot the messenger.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 08:52 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SilentKoala:
I should add that I have tried learning guitar before, and I'll say right now it is a lot harder than piano. I had more difficulty learning basic guitar songs than I did learning Chopin's 23rd etude.
[/b]
I play guitar and piano and I disagree.
Posted by: JBiegel

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 08:58 AM

Good point, USA. I remember taking a Music Criticism course at Juilliard with Irving Kolodin. Everyone thought they knew everything! Well!! Mr. Kolodin played two reordings of the same aria. He said after, compare them. Everyone commented on how the first one was this or that, and the second singer was this or that. Here's the punchline: Mr. Kolodin said, "Ha ha. They are both the same singer. The first recording was from her earliest recording at the beginning of her career, and the second recording toward the end of her career. Be careful how you criticize things." That's when I learned to have respect for all styles, not that I didn't before, but being in a competitive environment challenges an individual's own security and knowledge. It's very easy to lose track of this.

By the way, I tried guitar once--impossible for me. My hat's off to anyone who can play the guitar or any string instrument without lines for every note on the fingerboard. Can you imagine a piano without separate keys?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 09:25 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by SilentKoala:

It takes a lot more creativity for a DJ to mix his own beats than it does for some asian kid with glasses to sit down and mathematically reproduce a classical score with no emotion.
[/b]
Not sure those match.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 09:53 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Reaper978:

Now, I for one do not consider rap an actual genre of music. It's simply words set to a beat. There's no melody, harmony, counterpoint, etc. Without some sort of discernible beat and melodic content, I don't consider it music. That's just me. Sure, some may create fantastic beats and great lyrics, but there's not real melody or harmony to be found. It is NOT MUSIC.
[/b]
Could you name a specific rap song you're talking about? I'm not a fan of rap, but I don't hate it anymore than I do some other genres. But I've certainly heard enough to know it has the elements you've mentioned.

Remember the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air theme song?
Posted by: Frank_W

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 09:54 AM

What really sucks, is when people do all they can to take the joy out of anything that people enjoy doing. I've seen it with music, flying ultralights, scuba diving, and a myriad of other pursuits that I've engaged in, over the years. I avoid such people. Instead, I seek out people who enjoy what they do, regardless of their skill level, and I avoid the killjoys. Some people are so spiritually bankrupt that they can't be happy unless they are stomping on the hearts, joy, creations, and enthusiams of others.
Posted by: namekuseijin

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 11:45 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeanne W:
(This is kinda long -sorry. I just dashed this off this morning and have to go to work now.)
[/b]
Not to worry. It can be summed up to: opinions are not fact.

So let's attain to the facts about rap "music". For this, you gotta forget the MTV videos and all its flash and "attitude" altogether and focus on the "music" itself. That obviously means dropping the lyrics too of course: just the words, not the "melody".

What remains of music there? I want facts, not opinion.
Posted by: namekuseijin

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 11:52 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Frank_W:

What really sucks, is when people do all they can to take the joy out of anything that people enjoy doing.
[/b]
I just want to clarify I'm not saying people can have no fun or joy at all from rap. I'm just saying it's not music. You know there are people who are masochist, don't you?
Posted by: Frank_W

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 12:10 PM

Well, I'll be the first to admit that rap isn't my cup of tea. By the same token, neither is most orchestral or classical. Diversity is the spice of life, though.
Posted by: namekuseijin

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 12:16 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Frank_W:
Diversity is the spice of life, though. [/b]
sure, I don't listen just to classicals, either. But what I listen to is always definetely music.
Posted by: phonehome

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 12:31 PM

Music is organized sound.

Rap music is the current stop on a road made up of West African ritualistic shouts, African American spirituals and ringshouts, ragtime, jazz, R&B, be-bop, rock and roll (which at first differed from R&B only because of its marketing) and cool jazz. Historically speaking, music in Africa was VERY different from the music of Europe. The fusion of these two is what has become the style of popular music which most of the world listens to.

Rap music leans toward the influences of Africa, for obvious reasons. To say that rap isn't music is to say that African music, in general, is not music, because they share the same basic qualities which include syncopated rhythms, call and response, and audience participation (dancing along can be considered participation). The music of West Africa has come to affect almost everything that people in the world listen to, and that INCLUDES serious classical music. Gershwin, Ravel, Barber, Stravinsky (think 'ebony concerto'), and many other classical musicians have African influence in their music.

Sorry, but even if you don't like it, rap is most certainly music.
Posted by: JBiegel

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 12:34 PM

And Saint-Saens wrote the 'Africa' Fantasy--he was in Algiers for some time.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 12:38 PM

I agree with phonehome. And nice Paganini Rhapsody by the way, I didn't get around to posting in the other thread.
Posted by: phonehome

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 12:54 PM

Thanks Kevin =o)

I do appreciate all kinds of music, so this was a perfect thread for me.
Posted by: Ted

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 05:40 PM

I concur with Frank here. The personal worth of music for me concerns joy, serendipity and surprise - the delight which it produces in my brain when I play or hear it. In the end nothing else matters very much except the sound and its effect on me. Style, fashion, tradition, social, historical and extra-musical associations and so on, even less its mode of creation - using or not using a particular set of rules. These things are certainly interesting at the intellectual level, and we can all have fun talking about them, but they do not seem to affect the immediate qualia of my musical experience. I do not really understand how this latter works and I suspect it is so deep I shall never fully do so.

Of course, the sounds which transport me will most likely not impress everybody else. Given the diversity of human personality it would be most surprising if they did. Nonetheless, if even a handful of people, musicians or not, take a fancy to my sounds then, while not strictly necessary, it undoubtedly adds a bonus to the process of creating music.

As far as genres are concerned, the older I get the broader my outlook is becoming.
Posted by: PerformingYak

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/20/07 06:48 PM

 Quote:
sure, I don't listen just to classicals, either. But what I listen to is always definitely music.
So what music do you listen to namekuseijin?

I don't exactly like rap but I do believe it is a form of music. It is just a form of music based on rhythms and beats rather than melodies. Would you consider a drum solo music, or a drumming group, or some of the african or indian music, with untuned percussion instruments? What about that of the Australian aboriginal people?

Also some rap music does have variations in pitch, I would hardly call it a melody in most cases however there are definitely different pitches in there.

Attitude is part of music. Would any music still be as entertaining without any emotion at all?
However with out the flash videos(which I don't watch anyway), and the lyrics there isn't a lot I agree. There is still music in there be it bad or good, either way there is still rhythm, beat and a loop (even if it has been lifted from something else)

Jeanne W- loved the post and totally agree.

 Quote:
Firstly, it takes a lot of skill to gain the faculties needed to read and play music correctly, even without the emotion.
Are you saying that Pavarotti was less of a musician than .. oh say, Eric clapton? You know he couldn't read music right (I don't know if this is still the case.)
Posted by: Reaper978

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/21/07 11:20 AM

Hm, I never stated that the ability to read music well was in fact a measure of someone's musicianship, just that the difficulty of reading music is very high and requires a large amount of focused training in order to gain enough mental faculties to pull off. Silentkoala was talking difficulty in the first place.

Though the ability to read music well can boost your opportunities as a musician to extreme heights.

Though I'm not sure who you're referring to in your message, is it Clapton who can't read music or Pavarotti? I've always guessed that Pavarotti was a classically trained tenor, so I have a feeling he can read music and very well at that.
Posted by: argerichfan

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/21/07 11:36 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Reaper978:
I've always guessed that Pavarotti was a classically trained tenor, so I have a feeling he can read music and very well at that.
I wouldn't put money on that. I think he learned his music pretty much by rote.
Posted by: pianoid

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/22/07 04:20 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by phonehome:

Music is organized sound.
[/b]
Tell that to chance composers who want all but randomly disorganized sounds to be called music. :p

 Quote:
Originally posted by phonehome:

Rap music is the current stop on a road made up of West African ritualistic shouts, African American spirituals and ringshouts, ragtime, jazz, R&B, be-bop, rock and roll (which at first differed from R&B only because of its marketing) and cool jazz.
[/b]
So, it seems it has come a full circle:

African ritualistic shouts -> African American spirituals and ringshouts -> ragtime -> jazz -> R&B -> be-bop (high point!) -> cool jazz -> rock and roll (descending) -> rap (shouts and ritualist drums).

\:\)

 Quote:
Originally posted by phonehome:

To say that rap isn't music is to say that African music, in general, is not music, because they share the same basic qualities which include syncopated rhythms, call and response, and audience participation (dancing along can be considered participation).
[/b]
So, it's wrong to say a son is ugly because his parents are beautiful, even though the brat is indeed ugly? Please, don't generalize: there are many good african descended music, which rap isn't.

The most distinctive feature of african music is its heavily syncopated rhythm and percussive nature. Problem is: rhythm is a feature not only of music, but also of poetry (literature), dance, cinema and many other "timeflowed" arts.

What makes music music is when there's at least melody lines involved, when there's pitch variation involved. So, African ritualist shouts and syncopated rhythms are no more music than a bunch of birds randomly calling their mates. Like any other primitive music efforts from all over the world, BTW.

It was only when African-Americans took ahold of centuries-old refined european musical instruments and common-practice harmonic rules, and then bent them to suit their expression needs that we had the germ of much of 20th century music.

If I'm sounding imperialist or colonialist, sorry, that's not what I mean. What I mean is that music improved from the fusion of old primitive african traditions and the then still relatively modern tonal practice that took europeans some 2 centuries to perfect.

And then, close to the end of the 20th century, the beginning of this one, we are going back once again: to shouts and hollow tree drums being beaten ragely.
Posted by: PerformingYak

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/22/07 07:22 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Reaper978:


Though I'm not sure who you're referring to in your message, is it Clapton who can't read music or Pavarotti? I've always guessed that Pavarotti was a classically trained tenor, so I have a feeling he can read music and very well at that. [/b]
I was referring to Pavarotti. It was a huge piece of news a few years back but washed over pretty quickly when people realised "hey, the guy can't read music but he's still AWESOME"

as for the ability to read, maybe it was just the way it came across... words written down don't always have the right tone:)
Posted by: PerformingYak

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/22/07 07:26 PM

By the way, I bow out of this arguement/ conversation/ whatever you want to call it.... I find it useless when everyone here (including myself )is coming across with their own views but not getting anywhere in broadening anyone elses opinions. While there is a lot more to say on the subject it is getting very repetative.

Catch you in another discussion
Posted by: JBiegel

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/23/07 05:37 AM

It started as a plea for people of all genres to be sympathetic and accepting of other musician's genres. That isn't asking too much--but it won't happen all of the time to everyone's liking, so we learn to accept everyone for who they are and give them the space to be who they are. I always say, if you don't like something about someone or what they've said, it's not your problem, it's theirs. You can't change people nor their views--and should survey your own thoughts, likes and dislikes without bestowing them on everyone around you unless asked--and even then, with great discretion.
Posted by: Frank_W

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/23/07 09:50 AM

Sage advice, JBiegel.
Posted by: Jeanne W

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/25/07 01:59 PM

Those who found this post of interest may want to check this post out:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/2/14537.html#000000
Posted by: phonehome

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/25/07 06:35 PM

"Tell that to chance composers who want all but randomly disorganized sounds to be called music."

I would still consider chance music to be organized in a sense.
Posted by: wisredz

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 03/27/07 10:04 AM

This is something I think about a lot. Please do not take anything I write personally it is my view on music.

I adore classical music, I think it is the pinaccle of creativity and beauty. I respect those who perform classical music, teach it, practice it as a hobby, or simply listen to it.

I used to play guitar and got quite good at it (that's what people tell me, I'm not an arrogant person). As expected, I listened to a lot of rock and blues and jazz, listened to a lot of virtuosos and the like. They are very creative people with a really good understanding of music. (Steve Vai, Stevie Ray Vaughan, BB King, Albert Collins etc)

I won't discuss whether rap is music or not, but it does tax one's creativity. There was a time when I listened to Eminem's Marshall Mathers LP really much and I still do if I get in the mood. He is a creative person and uses his creative powers in what way he can express himself.

Each people likes certain kinds of music and that's fine. But as long as music is done for music's sake, not for money's, I respect the musician, though I may not like his music.
Posted by: phonehome

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 04/12/07 05:07 PM

[/qb][/QUOTE]Tell that to chance composers who want all but randomly disorganized sounds to be called music. :p

It's still organized on a page, isn't it?
Posted by: U S A P T

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 04/12/07 05:32 PM

After a week of delivering pianos and motorcycles all over the west I'd come home and get on my bike and ride down the to the Las Vegas strip and park in front of Bellagio and watch the fountains.

It was the most beautiful spectacle and between shows you could think about all the amazing musicians who played in studios and studied hard. The singers, the water choreographers, the engineers and designers who put it all together and the millions who flock to see it each year.

Sarah Brightman, Whitney Houston, Andreas Bocelli and all the other people whose art could so effectively be put to water and light.

OR

Some cluck would walk by in a polyester hawaiian shirt and a fanny pack and say "How tacky."


Whitney Singing Star Spangled Banner

Bocelli Brightman duet

Paganini Theme
Posted by: Bryan P. Carney

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 04/22/07 09:24 PM

Hmm, I didn't know these forums were active. I just want to add my two cents:

I listen to music to get high and to take me away from mundania. If music has no aesthetic value to me, I ignor it.

I can get high off of any music. I especially get high when I am in the act of making music. I don't give a damn about other people or their level of enjoyment. The rules of music are there to facilitate uninterrupted ecstacy.

Ever beat drums in the woods or on a plain, around a fire, only to marvel at the beautiful, naked, humans gyrating to some universal beat? Would propriety prohibit you?

Currently, I am in a mode of exposing myself to what we call classical music, through the piano, and, of course, marvel at the desert that is popular music. I once played hand drums with the same zeal. I once wrote poetry with the same zeal.

Some people just hate to cop to hedonism, to humanity. Yes, that is a value judgement.
Posted by: U S A P T

Re: Snotty musicians who act like their genre is the only "real" music - 04/27/07 11:28 AM

I am always wary of those who see their preference as the only valid one.