Digital VS "real"

After all the controversy and arguments, I came across this in "members recordings" and it nearly broke my heart....

Sometimes, just sometimes, something moves me big time.
This is one of those times,
This dude has just played mendelssohn, on his laptop keyboard..
Literally.

with programs like abelton, you can "play" the actual keyboard of your laptop as a midi controller if you dont have a keyboard.

However, this is not the easyest thing in the world to do, and most folk just use it to write a few midi notes or chords..

This takes it to a whole new level, and moves me that anyone can defeat the adversity of not having even a cheap casio with piano keys to play....

Someone give this dude your old unused keyboard....

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1836173

Rostosky,

I felt the exact same way, which is why I encouraged him to also post on the Piano Corner Member Recordings section. Which he did, and there's been a little discussion there.

-Jason

It's really beautiful. He is very gifted to be able to do that. Not sure it needs a lot of commentary from me, it just makes me realize again,... there are wonders in the world!

Thanks Jason, I misread it as just pianists corner. Saying that, In this instance, I feel that the more folk that see this lad beat the adversity of not even having a digital piano the better.
If I had a spare keyboard that was unwanted or unused, I would be bubble wrapping it up right now.
Not a lot moves old Rossy these days, but this did.

Has the video above been edited? If it has, I refuse to to enjoy it!

And miss out on an excellent example of that which humbles? PPP , I am surprised.

haha. now, that is funny.

gw

Wonderful!

I'm not buying it as a real performance. How is he doing the pedaling? How can he get any dynamics with a keyboard that is either on or off and can't sense velocity? I think it's a con.

Seems to me that the "pedaling" is just at one setting thoughout, so it's not something that needs to be dealt with, other than setting it at "on" or "off". I also don't hear any dynamics, really. So, I don't get a strong sense that it is bogus.

On the other hand, while thinking it is a cool accomplishment and nicely done (and I hope a regular keyboard arrives soon), I don't quite get why people are falling all over themselves about it in the way they are. It's just another kind of MIDI controller, really. The very fact that somebody actually went to the trouble of creating the software to do it tells you that "playing piano" using a QWERTY keyboard is perhaps not all that unusual.

You are right about it being a dynamically flat performance, but there are still some notes that stand out more than others. I aint buying it.

No, he is not playing. Watch at 2.08. After the trill there are notes sounding but he does not even touch the keys. I don't buy it either

It looks like he is hitting them to me. I think he needs a better camera though, because the frame-rate is not particularly great. Also, it is a midi, and if his keyboard is anything like my DP, when you input midi there tends to be a slight lag while it processes the pitch and rhythm for recording (though that might be because I am inputting to my laptop via a USB) - which is why I don't even try to use the midi function on my DP anymore.

Until I understand how this is done and/or how it can be done, I remain skeptical.

Regards,

Does a QWERTY (laptop actually) keyboard have enough keys to accomodate 88 piano keys? I mean with the shift key it seems plausible, but...

Other than that, the 'how' question seems quite easy to answer: You just make a program to response to midi notes 1 key at a time. If you remain at the same velocity layer constantly and have the pedal continuously down, it can be done it seems...

If the pedal was continuously down, the sound would become unbearably mushy. The way he is touching the keyboard is also very un-piano-like. There's no way to make it sound like that the way he is doing it. Still, he's convinced a few people with it so he's had a victory of sorts...

I'm pretty technologically challenged and have no idea to what extent this is possible or not, but I'm starting to be intrigued. Guess I'd better listen to it now (my previous post, in Members' Recordings, was a hypothetical answer to the question "why?" which stores asked - I haven't listened to the actual recording).

Not speculating as to whether or not he is actually playing it this way, but some objections are easy to overcome. For Nikolas, the piece he is playing doesn't use 88 keys; without the shift key (or alt, ctrl) you can have two octaves. For ando, since he must be using a synthesized or sampled piano, he can set the release automatically and shorten the length of decay to keep it from overlapping too much. There are a few spots where chords overlap and are dissonant. The only problem left is the melody seems to be louder than the accompaniment but you can set a filter to brighten the sound around the range of the melody.

I think we should link to this thread in the other thread, so he can offer an explanation. (I don't think he is reading this thread.)
I have never done it, although I think what Damon said is true based on stuff I read on the subject. The video is a little bit blurred and it is difficult to discern what he is doing.

There are obvious problems with this performance in terms of dynamics, pedalling, how long he holds down the keys. It's not totally authentic. Also, people who own a computer with a sampled piano and know how to play, certainly would own a piano keyboard to trigger it. It's more plausible that it was recorded with a keyboard and he is miming to a recorded sequence. It's obvious that he can play it on the computer because he is hitting the same notes consistently. I'm sure you could play the piece, but with less control over the sound. Try playing a decent trill on a computer keyboard, it's pretty much impossible. Nice gimmick though. Another possibility is that it was recorded like this, but was MIDI edited later to add pedaling and fix things like the trills and dynamics. That would be perfectly doable.

In the YouTube description he says he used the following software:

Virtual MIDI Piano Keyboard (VMPK)
Kontakt

With both these tools at his disposal I don't see why anyone should be sceptical about his performance with the computer keyboard.

I don't think he is miming (and I find it quite easy to play a trill on a computer keyboard.) It also sounds to me as if the notes are just ringing out. I'll take door B - editing after the fact.
Also, most (all modern) sound cards have a set of General Midi sounds built in, which is why you can play a midi file from the web and hear it. If the performance was fake, I'd have to wonder why. It's more interesting than it is impressive.

Now if it were a Chopin etude......

I have studied this to extremely hard, I do accept there is a visual disparity at the given time, BUT, he is not using what we would call a half decent camera, He never claimed that the video was taken in one "shoot" It may well have been patched, and given the primitiveness of the camera used, it would seem natural that it didnt have a very large memory card especially if using its video function.

To my eyes, it looks like it was taken on a very old digital STILS camera that had very very basic video capacity like say an early vivitar... the sort of thing most folk were lucky enough to throw away 20 years ago.

He has agreed to do it again, so that he can send me the midi file.. he doesnt need to do that, but has offered.
the midi file wil show up any alleged "velocity changes" and will also show whether the midi notes themselves have been doctored to fall exactly on time, every time, which I seriously doubt.

On my own laptop, In abelton, using Pianotech as a vst for example, If I want to sound notes in different octaves, I hit the X button to go up and octave, and again to go up another octave , and the Z button to go down an octave and again to go down another octave.
This allows to get to the top and bottom octaves in an 88 key range.

I have only ever used my laptop keyboard to sound midi notes and chords when I am working away from my "real" keyboard and dont want to hook the laptop up.

He also mentions that using galaxy Vienna, some notes have different velocities as an inherent flaw of the program, which I believe I have heard folk mention before?

Update, Rupak was using "Camtastia" which records what you are doing online with a WAV file as the sound format. It also allows you to use the webcam function to record visuals.

Quite clearly, his webcam is awfull, and to record the keypad will mean terrible foreshortening, its a wonder we can see anything at all, not ideal conditions for forensic testing of the visuals by a clear margin.

ando: It's not just the alphabet keys. You can very well use pretty much all the keys available (;,.123456890-=`][ and so on, along with the numberic keypad, etc)...

The sound is just a sampled piano, it can happen without a keyboard at all.

And I've had plenty of sound libraries before actually getting a midi keyboard (digital piano that is), so it's perfectly normal.

I never said anything about the keys being used. I actually said that he could certainly play the piece on the computer keypad. Not sure why you are directing this at me.



I never talked about the sound production either. I'm perfectly aware of sampled pianos, MIDI editing, VSTs etc. Again, not sure why you are telling me this. My comments were related to aspects of the performance that do not tally with the video image. Specifically pedalling and dynamics. As I said, it could be played as we see it on the video, but then edited to add what was missing.

Rupak was kind enough to send me a midi file he made, and I have done a review of the evidence...
here are my findings...

Rostosky: Killer of Zombies and Defender of People who just want to Enjoy Music!

I was not aware of this post. I just came to know about it today from Rostosky. I wanna thank you all for your criticisms. But now I see that even Rostosky's hard effort to prove this to be real is also being joked. This is too painful to me. Though most of the confusions and doubts are resolved by Rostosky, polyphasicpianist, Nikolas, Damon (and their speculations are exactly correct and I'll also explain it that way) still for those who are not still convinced and do need and ready to accept some explanations, I've some. But let me first request you to at least have a look at VMPK, Kontakt and Galaxy II Vienna Concert Grand soft piano.

For pedaling and dynamics (ando): VMPK has a sustain pedal controller, but basically it has only 2 effects: pedal down (when it's maximum) and pedal up (when it's minimum or below certain value). So, it's next to impossible to control pedal and I never did it. I fixed it to MAXIMUM VALUE ALWAYS. So, all notes are sustained throughout the playing. But the explanation of why certain notes are sustained more than others can explain the same issue for velocity or volume as well. As I explained it quite a few times; because Galaxy II Vienna's a sampled piano, all notes, even if they are played with a fixed velocity and pedal down, don't produce same loudness or sustain for same time-span. THIS IS THE INHERENT FEATURE OF SAMPLED PIANO. And as Damon also correctly explained, in the EQ settings of Galaxy Vienna I decreased the resonance time a bit as I've to play with pedal down always. This may not be apparent when you play sampled piano with a DP or a midi controller/sequencer but is quite apparent if you try with a computer keyboard as a midi controller. I request you to try this.

Next issue is video. I recorded the video with a cheap Frontech webcam. The ambient light was also low. I'm sorry for this but please note that I'd no other options. I used camtasia to record the system audio and video from webcam. As correctly anticipated by polyphasicpianist, the video framerate as low as less than 15-20 fps, and I couldn't make it larger. So, the trill portion can't be as clear as a regular HD video looks. I have seen so many people typing much much faster than the trill, even hard core gamers used to press buttons like storm Try to catch their finger movements with a slow framrate webcam and see what happens.

Another minor issue which can be understood quite easily if one really wants to is implementing 88 keys on computer. This is quite correctly explained by Damon: this song absolutely doesn't need 88 keys. Even I didn't have to shift the octave up or down. That's a major reason I choose this song to play. Again, best way to be convinced is to try for yourself.

These are some explanations which probably I couldn't make lucid because of my poor english. But I've an ultimate suggestion to all of you. If someone still needs proofs I request him to first download VMPK (it's free) and then send a PM to me so that I can send him the keymap settings (which qwerty key is mapped to which piano keys) that I made for this song as well as the exact notes (the qwerty key sequence to play this song). I believe anyone can try this with a computer and can convince himself more than any explanation or argument can.

Thanks a lot to all of you.

Best regrads,

Thank you, Rostosky for taking the time to make a thorough and convincing analysis in support of Mr. Bhattacharya’s performance.

What he has done is the musical equivalent of producing a Renoir with nothing but a paint roller, and I applaud his diligence, his commitment to making music, his creativity in overcoming the limitations of his equipment, AND for his performance. I hope we’ll be hearing more from him (and on a real keyboard) in the very near future.

Regards,

John

Thank you a lot for appreciating Rostosky's hard work for such a mere insignificant work of mine. Surely he had gone through a lot more hardships for making this video than me. I don't know how to meet my debt to him. He deserves lot more appreciations than me.

I tend to agree.

On a larger scale, members of our species believe the most incredible things ... and without proof.

If this is 'real', let's see a video with greater resolution.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Recorded at "Area 51"

Did you see Rostosky's video? The velocity of the midi was not altered, meaning the subtle rhythm shifts (which he would of had to learn to mime exceptionally well, if he was faking the whole thing) would of had to have been altered on a note by note basis, thus making this one of the most elaborate and pointless internet hoaxes ever produced.

We can go back and forth, but it would save a lot of f****** time if there were a video of reasonably high resolution.

I personally know people who believe that there is life after death without any proof. I personally know people who believe that virgins can give birth. These are intelligent people who believe incredible things without proof. Why should the bar be set so low for musicians?

Asking for a higher quality video is not asking too much.

Anyone remember the Joyce Hatto recordings?

We already knew you were attacking religion with your first post. Everybody gets it. You're an atheist. Why not put it in your tagline so you don't have to make a point of bringing it up all the time?

I was attacking those with silly superstitious beliefs but mainly those without critical thinking faculties. Should I also include those who worship flags as well?

Why not put it in your tagline so you don't have to make a point of bringing it up all the time?

All the time? Really? Amazing! Could you provide a link?

Obviously you shouldn't be attacking at all, unprovoked as it is, and why you would add yourself to the list is beyond me.

If the video is genuine, let's see a slightly higher resolution video.

This isn't a matter of faith, Damon, proof in the form of 21st century technology isn't asking too much.

I almost laughed out loud when I first saw the video, thought Faaaake... then I found this musical computer keyboard clip on youtube. This guy is explaining the program he developed, and showing how the keyboard works, how to change keys, etc. It's from 2007 and there are better sounding samples by now, I'm sure. But the way his hands move on the keyboard, and the slight delay between pressing the key and the sound, seem very similar to what Rupak posted.

Profanity warning-- to skip the general idiocy and bad language, go straight to 1:10 in the clip, where he starts explaining seriously. Like some forum members here he manages to work the f-word incongruously into the conversation, but uses the ph-word later-- Phrygian! It actually seems simpler to use than a piano-keyboard, and although I was persuaded it was real, at the same time was less impressed by the "virtuosity" required to use it. (I still think Rupak has a great sense of music, though)

Unless your a kid who who is being asked to fork out extra cash to purchase a high definition webcam just to satisfy some harcore skeptics on an internet forum.

I've seen the light. Glory Halleluiah!

Why don't you look at the video provided? I'm able to discern a few notes already and could probably provide the key-map myself with just this video. You act like this is a monumental achievement, like the birth of a god or something.

What's the difference between a skeptic and a hard core skeptic?

Is no one familiar with the Joyce Hatto story? A lot of people were fooled.

I'm just reserving judgment until I see more proof. The bar of proof is set so low that anyone who questions anything is labeled hardcore these days.

The difference is that a plain skeptic understands that they don't need to push a trivial issue to its metaphysical limits.

Metaphysical ... funny!

Pretty sure the Hatto matter has been hashed, rehashed, and hashed again. Try the search function.



I do wonder about what incredible things Mr. Horne believes without 'proof'. Everyone has a certain amount of faith, be it God, money, women, weed, etc.

Faith, by definition, is the belief in something for which there is no proof.

Was it W.C. Fields who said, Everyone have to believe in something, I believe I'll have another beer.

Is it too much to ask to see a higher resolution video?
Yes Mr. Horn, in this case it is, firstly Rupak is a struggling Physics Phd student in Bangladesh India.

He doesnt even have a "real" midi keyboard.

Secondly, he didnt think he would have to scientifically "prove" what he has played to anyone.

And why should he? Members post themselves playing here, sometimes on $10,000+ steinways, using a number of mics, and then post an MP3 or wav of that in the "ether"

Who says " we want to see you playing to believe its you?"

We take it on trust its not their friend or uncle albert or whatever.

But , I made a video reviewing the evidence, if you dont understand it just say so...
I will post it again in case you wish to argue any of the points raised in the evidence.

However, the latest development in this case is as follows:


David campos, grew up in his fathers recording studio, as a child he was allways at the feet of sound engineers and music producers.

As he grew up he built a few recording studios himself, what he doesnt know about the production of music could be written on a postage stamp.

He has produced music for films, adverts and bands.

I sent him the link to Rupaks mendelssohn on computer keyboard.

He has no doubts whatsoever..and regards it as totally genuine.

And is more than prepared to put his money where his mouth is on this.....

He offered to provide Rupak with a Midi keyboard.

Kudos David Campos.

However, Rupak declined the Gift, citing that he was worried that he may not be able to put enough time into learning to play just at the moment as his Phd is all consuming timewise.

I think Rupak felt that he would feel personal pressure to learn to play, almost like he would be so endebted to David, he would feel obliged..

I tried to explain that a gift is a gift, and that it would not be a conditional gift, or come with strings attached.(no pun)

Rupak also said that he was busy saving up for a keyboard and hopes to aquire one in the near future for himself.

Kudos, Rupak, not many folk in this world decline something for nothing, and I find this admirable.

In my personal opinion, Rupak found a way to say "hey guys, I know this wont sound like perfectly played mendelssohn, but I really love this piece of music, and found a way to play it as best I could on what I could"

And was put on trial for it...

Again, I say : Shame on you.

FWIW, I have no trouble believing the video. People arguing pedal and velocity just aren't listening closely enough. My first take on the video was confirmed by Rupak's explanation of how the system works.

The only thing about this thread I don't understand is why people get so bent out of shape about this kind of thing.

On the PC Member Recordings thread, I didn't have any trouble believing it, mainly because I saw who were some of the people who had replied and weren't doubting it; otherwise I probably would have regarded it as impossible. Maybe that wasn't a great reason to accept it, but I thought it was, and looks like that was right.

We can be both too accepting and too skeptical of stuff on the internet, and sometimes we can't be sure which is which. What's the right amount? We'll never know.

Assuming that Rupak's Mendelssohn was for real, I'm sorry to see that he was subjected to some of what was said on here. But it happens. And anyway the skepticism was part of what led to our finding out more about how it was done.

Anyway, Rupak - you should regard it as a compliment that some people doubted the authenticity of your recording. It means it is something pretty unusual.

I first played "piano" using some software like this; it may have been the exact same software, but I make no promises on that.

The general idea behind the software that I had was that the numbers (sortof intermitently) are black keys, then the row [TAB]QWERTYUIO... are white keys, then the row ASDFG... are black keys, and ZXCVB... are white keys. Not each letter/number corresponds to a key; some of them are unresponsive and represent the blank spaces on the piano where there are not black keys (if the piano keys were a perfect white/black/white/black... repetition, then each key on the computer keyboard could link to a piano key easily).

The first chord I taught myself was CBM, if I remember correctly.


A full range of about three octaves can be achieved using this. The function keys (above the numbers) can add another octave and a half, but only of either white or black keys. This setup is a bit disorientating at first, but you can get used to it. The fingering of each hand can be almost identical, if you start in the correct place and have the right song. It only gets tricky when an octave extends from one set of keyboard rows and down onto the next set, such as a chord of P]Z

What proof do you have that WC Fields ever said such a thing?

I sense buns.

You have a good heart

Thats sweet, thanks, I guess some one has to no matter how much it hurts.