Mikuli edition wrong?

Posted by: JoelW

Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 03:00 PM

At 3:30, Yundi plays an F-sharp. He plays it at both repetitions too. Do you know what edition he's using? My Mikuli edition doesn't have that F-sharp. Which version is "official"? The F-sharp sounds better imo.

Posted by: debrucey

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 03:58 PM

There is no single correct edition for Chopin. Most of his works have many variants, which derive from several different editions published during his lifetime (often with his personal input) and the autograph score, where it exists. Both with the F# and without are valid interpretations. I'm learning the 4th ballade at the moment and there's all sorts of areas like this.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 04:00 PM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
I'm learning the 4th ballade at the moment and there's all sorts of areas like this.


Does it annoy you? Lol.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 04:04 PM

Nope, it interests me. Obviously I have some strong opinions about which variants I prefer and why, but I think it's useful to be occasionally reminded that there isn't and can never be a single, truly definitive version of a piece of music.
Posted by: ChopinAddict

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 04:41 PM

I always check CFEO when I am in doubt.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 07:09 PM

First editions are not necessarily the most 'authentic'. They often contain engraving errors that are corrected in later editions, and Chopin himself is known to have been involved in the process of making subsequent editions of lots of pieces. The Ballade, for example, has three 'first' editions, French, German and English, and there are lots of differences between them.
Posted by: BDB

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 07:34 PM

Most questions have more than a single answer.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 10:23 PM

Originally Posted By: mazurkajoe
At 3:30, Yundi plays an F-sharp.

As opposed to what?

What he's playing there is the only version I've ever known, and the only version I've ever heard, in all the billions of times I've heard the piece. smile
Posted by: ChopinAddict

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 10:28 PM

I think he means as opposed to the Mikuli edition. I have also always heard F# though.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 10:43 PM

Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
I think he means as opposed to the Mikuli edition. I have also always heard F# though.

What in the world is in the Mikuli edition instead??
Posted by: argerichfan

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 10:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
I think he means as opposed to the Mikuli edition. I have also always heard F# though.

What in the world is in the Mikuli edition instead??

laugh , I was going to ask that too!

BTW, not very happy with what's going on beginning at 6:39. Terribly rushed and smudged.
Posted by: ChopinAddict

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 10:49 PM

We will have to wait until MJ comes back and tells us. smile
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 10:50 PM

OK....I think I know.

Joe: Do you mean something about the LEFT HAND?

I assumed you meant about the melody. I checked Mikuli, and sure enough, there's an F# in the RIGHT hand. It looks like you didn't realize (or forgot) that there's an F# in the RH. That's what made it hard to understand what you were talking about. And really I'm not sure I understand it even now. smile
Posted by: ChopinAddict

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 10:57 PM

There is also the possibility that there is a typo in his book (and that it doesn't have anything to do with "Mikuli").
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/13/12 11:07 PM

Me2. Let's wait to find out what Joe meant.

Anyway: Looking at different editions, I see that there are differences in the left hand.


Edit: Be that as it may, I just learned something. smile

IMSLP has the Fontana manuscript -- and assuming that it's correct on this detail (and I'd have to guess it is), I've been playing it wrong forever, and so do many other people.

I've been re-striking the F# in the LH, sort of not realizing it's the same note that the RH had played previously as part of its octave, and that the note is tied over, not re-struck. (I've been re-striking it with the thumb of the LH.)

Maybe this is what Joe meant: Are you supposed to re-strike that F# in the bass?

I would rush to see what the Joseffy edition shows (because it's the main one I've used), but I'm in the middle of a move and my scores are nowhere to be found.

Can somebody check Joseffy.....
Posted by: GeorgeB

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 12:37 AM

Paderewski edition FTW. Why bother with something riddled with mistakes when you can get a reliable source for which is an amalgamation of several editions done by (several in fact) experts in Chopin and also which list (most if not) all the possible other options in the comments section at the back?
Posted by: currawong

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 12:46 AM

Rather than (or in addition to, if you like smile ) posting a youtube clip and saying "at 3.30...", could you please mention the bar number? Then those of us with slow and dodgy internet connections could simply look it up in the score. I'd really appreciate it.
Posted by: DanS

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 02:26 AM

Originally Posted By: GeorgeB
Paderewski edition FTW. Why bother with something riddled with mistakes when you can get a reliable source for which is an amalgamation of several editions done by (several in fact) experts in Chopin and also which list (most if not) all the possible other options in the comments section at the back?


+1

PE also shows the LH F# is tied from previous measure playing with RH


currawong, it's M293 in question
Posted by: currawong

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 02:44 AM

Thanks, Dan. smile
Posted by: ChopinAddict

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 04:09 AM

Originally Posted By: DanS

PE also shows the LH F# is tied from previous measure playing with RH


Cortot too.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 05:36 AM

Woah, this thread inflated!

Sorry it took so long for me to get back. (i'm finally on a good sleeping schedule)



Okay, to clear things up: Yundi Li is definitely 100% re-striking the F-sharp in the LEFT HAND at 3:30 and the repetitions. It does not sound tied over at all. Take another listen!
Posted by: GeorgeB

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 06:14 AM

your use of caps, bold and underlining is really makes you sound obnoxious
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 06:18 AM

Originally Posted By: GeorgeB
your use of caps, bold and underlining is really makes you sound obnoxious


THANKS!
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 06:53 AM

FWIW, I've always thought those aspects of your posts have been fine. smile

The only thing is, you weren't clear on what you meant about the F# thing. ha
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 06:55 AM

Originally Posted By: currawong
Rather than (or in addition to, if you like smile ) posting a youtube clip and saying "at 3.30...", could you please mention the bar number? Then those of us with slow and dodgy internet connections could simply look it up in the score. I'd really appreciate it.

I often do the same as he did because of not having immediate access to a score with measure numbers. Most scores don't have them.

Of course another way to achieve what you asked would be to post an image of that portion of the score, but I've never done that because despite several online 'tutorials' by our members, I've never been able to do it. I don't recall if Joe's done it or if he knows how.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 07:40 AM

Even with a Paderweski edition its not always clear which variants to take. Henle editions are just as scholarly but they sometimes make different choices.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 07:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: currawong
Rather than (or in addition to, if you like smile ) posting a youtube clip and saying "at 3.30...", could you please mention the bar number? Then those of us with slow and dodgy internet connections could simply look it up in the score. I'd really appreciate it.

I often do the same as he did because of not having immediate access to a score with measure numbers. Most scores don't have them.

Of course another way to achieve what you asked would be to post an image of that portion of the score, but I've never done that because despite several online 'tutorials' by our members, I've never been able to do it. I don't recall if Joe's done it or if he knows how.


Yea, my score doesn't list the bar numbers.

but..

Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 08:07 AM

Originally Posted By: mazurkajoe
....but..



SHOW-OFF!! grin

BTW, about the Paderewski edition: It seems that it's no longer so much considered the most authoritative one. The Polish National gets the most props.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 08:20 AM

Mark I can teach you if you want to learn. It's really easy.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By: mazurkajoe
Mark I can teach you if you want to learn. It's really easy.

Sure, but please realize, lots of people have said that!

BTW, please don't make it a multi-step process. I can only do one. ha


(OK, maybe I could do 2.) smile
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 08:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: mazurkajoe
Mark I can teach you if you want to learn. It's really easy.

Sure, but please realize, lots of people have said that!

BTW, please don't make it a multi-step process. I can only do one. ha


(OK, maybe I could do 2.) smile


C'mon Mark it's gonna take more than 2 steps. Lol.

Here,

Click to reveal..
1: Open the PDF of your sheet music (or however you use music on your computer)

2: Copy your screen. If you're using a PC, the key will be in the upper-right side of your keyboard and will say 'prt sc'. This command captures whatever is on your screen.

3: Open Paint and hit ctrl+v. (or manually click paste)

4: Crop the section you want.

5: Save it.

6: Go to an image board such as imgur.com or postimage.com.

7: Upload the image.

8: Scroll over the image, right click and press "copy image location"

9: Go to PW and in the post toolbar click 'enter an image'. I use non-floating.

Easy!
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 08:33 AM

-- I have a Mac. grin

-- I got stuck on step 2 -- I don't see how to "copy the screen."

-- I have no idea what or where "Paint" is.

As I said, this wouldn't be easy, but thanks for trying. smile
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 09:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
-- I have a Mac. grin



Posted by: argerichfan

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 11:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
-- I have a Mac. grin

Mark, it's easy to copy the screen on a Mac. Hit 'shift' and the 'Apple' key, then press '4'. Left click and drag the mouse over the portion you want to copy. Bingo! You will see a '.png' file on your desktop.
Posted by: Damon

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 11:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
-- I have a Mac. grin

-- I got stuck on step 2 -- I don't see how to "copy the screen."


To capture a portion of the desktop, press Command-Shift-4. A cross-hair cursor will appear and you can click and drag to select the area you wish to capture. When you release the mouse button, the screen shot will be automatically saved as a PNG file on your desktop. (The file is saved as PDF in Mac OS 10.3 and earlier.)
Posted by: BDB

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 11:50 AM

Schirmer's printing of the Mikuli edition is a re-engraving of the original Kistner edition. There are sometimes anomalies that were the result of arcs passing from one line of the music to the next which were unclear, and might have been misinterpreted in the engraving process.
Posted by: DanS

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
Even with a Paderweski edition its not always clear which variants to take. Henle editions are just as scholarly but they sometimes make different choices.


I like the look of the Henle's. I just wish they were a little more durable.

In reference to the OP, maybe Yundi Li just liked the way it sounded replaying the F#. Maybe he's so good that he only looked at the music once and had it memorized! wink
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 10:53 PM

Jason and Damon: Thanks so much for trying some more to help me do it, but I think I'm just ineducable on this. mad

Jason: I have no idea how to "left click" with the Mac laptop -- not that it would help me if I did, because:

Damon: I did what you said, and it seemed (almost) to work until the last part. I got it saved on my desktop....but then how do I get it into a post?

And also: The reason I said "almost" is: Suppose the portion of the score that you want to copy starts in the MIDDLE of a score line, and extends into the next line? (As was the case in the example I was using.) I couldn't get it to include the beginning of the second line; it would only include the portion of the second line that begins at the same horizontal point where I began copying the first line. (And likewise for all additional lines.)
Posted by: ChopinAddict

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Jason: I have no idea how to "left click" with the Mac laptop -- not that it would help me if I did, because:


Have you got a mouse? I don't have a Mac so I cannot say much, but left-clicking usually means "clicking on the left button of the mouse". smile
Posted by: BDB

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/14/12 11:56 PM

Macs usually have only one button.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/15/12 12:20 AM

Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Have you got a mouse? I don't have a Mac so I cannot say much, but left-clicking usually means "clicking on the left button of the mouse". smile

See BDB's post. smile

(I'm not quite that stupid.) ha

(I'd know how to left-click with a mouse.)
Posted by: ChopinAddict

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/15/12 12:26 AM

Maybe Jason has this mouse? smile
http://www.apple.com/magicmouse/
Posted by: argerichfan

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/15/12 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By: BDB
Macs usually have only one button.

Those are the old ones which Apple -thankfully- have not made in years. The newer ones have both left and right click capabilities. But if Mark is still using an old one, then hit 'control' and click. That's the equivalent of a left click.
Posted by: argerichfan

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/15/12 12:31 AM

Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Maybe Jason has this mouse? smile
http://www.apple.com/magicmouse/

I've never cared for Apple mice, preferring a third-party mouse both at and home and at work.
Posted by: Damon

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/15/12 01:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Damon: I did what you said, and it seemed (almost) to work until the last part. I got it saved on my desktop....but then how do I get it into a post?


First you put the photo online. There are several places like "photobucket" (my favorite) or you can upload them directly to pianoworld with this link. Just fill in the form and click on the browse button to select the pic from your desktop to upload. Your pic will be at http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/*****.*** (the asterisks will be your file name) Don't worry if it gives you an error, it will still upload. The picture of bacon below proves it. You can quote this post and look at what I did.

Posted by: BDB

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/15/12 01:36 AM

The Magic Mouse has only one button, but it can be used with touch-sensitivity for multiple functions. In any case, control-clicking is not what you want to do when taking a partial screen shot. You want to hold and drag over the area you want to shoot.
Posted by: Damon

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/15/12 01:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C

And also: The reason I said "almost" is: Suppose the portion of the score that you want to copy starts in the MIDDLE of a score line, and extends into the next line? (As was the case in the example I was using.) I couldn't get it to include the beginning of the second line; it would only include the portion of the second line that begins at the same horizontal point where I began copying the first line. (And likewise for all additional lines.)


Your best bet is to make sure all that you want fits in the rectangle. I don't know of a screen grabber that can be that specific. What I have done in the past was make a separate pic of the next line and post two (or more) pics
Posted by: ChopinAddict

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/15/12 01:44 AM

Oh, it was just the first hit that came up when I entered MAc and two-button mouse. Maybe that's why:
Two-button click
Magic Mouse functions as a two-button mouse when you enable Secondary Click in System Preferences. Left-handed users can reassign left and right click, as well.
So basically one button but you can click on both sides of it. I think I have seen something like that before.

Apparently this is not necessary anyway, as Jason said new Macs come with a two-button mouse.

I assume Mac doesn't have a snipping tool like the new versions of Windows (otherwise it would have already been mentioned)?
Posted by: ChopinAddict

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/15/12 01:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

And also: The reason I said "almost" is: Suppose the portion of the score that you want to copy starts in the MIDDLE of a score line, and extends into the next line? (As was the case in the example I was using.) I couldn't get it to include the beginning of the second line; it would only include the portion of the second line that begins at the same horizontal point where I began copying the first line. (And likewise for all additional lines.)


Your best bet is to make sure all that you want fits in the rectangle. I don't know of a screen grabber that can be that specific. What I have done in the past was make a separate pic of the next line and post two (or more) pics


Two separate pictures can be put together in PhotoShop, but you need Photoshop or a similar program of course.
Or just draw a red line where you want to start if you want to start in the middle of a line (to make it clear).
Posted by: BDB

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/15/12 11:54 AM

Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict

Apparently this is not necessary anyway, as Jason said new Macs come with a two-button mouse.


New Macs come with the Magic Mouse, which only has one button. You can set it so that it works as a two button mouse.
Posted by: argerichfan

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/15/12 12:00 PM

Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict

Apparently this is not necessary anyway, as Jason said new Macs come with a two-button mouse.


New Macs come with the Magic Mouse, which only has one button. You can set it so that it works as a two button mouse.

Now I didn't say they came with two buttons. I said they came with left and right click capabilities. Jeez, guys, I hardly need a tutorial on Apple mice... wink
Posted by: Arghhh

Re: Mikuli edition wrong? - 11/15/12 07:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Joel_W
Originally Posted By: GeorgeB
your use of caps, bold and underlining is really makes you sound obnoxious


THANKS!


That just made my day. Lol!