Chopin Sonata 2 Finale

Posted by: JoelW

Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 06:42 AM

For those who have learned it, how difficult was the memorization?
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 07:10 AM

That's a question that is impossible to answer in a way that will be of any use to you.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 07:15 AM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
That's a question that is impossible to answer in a way that will be of any use to you.


As useless as this statement?
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 09:44 AM

It's not a useless statement. Memorisation speed is an incredibly personal thing and how one person memorises a particular piece will not have any bearing on how best you are to memorise the same piece.
Posted by: GeorgeB

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 09:56 AM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
It's not a useless statement. Memorisation speed is an incredibly personal thing and how one person memorises a particular piece will not have any bearing on how best you are to memorise the same piece.

+1
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 10:41 AM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
It's not a useless statement. Memorisation speed is an incredibly personal thing and how one person memorises a particular piece will not have any bearing on how best you are to memorise the same piece.


True, but it's rather relative. As in, how difficult is the memorization of the finale relative to other more tonally obvious pieces? I didn't ask "how hard will it be for me to memorize this?".
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 11:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Joel_W
For those who have learned it, how difficult was the memorization?


Speaking of memorizing : it's getting increasingly difficult to remember who you are with, now, another name change.
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 11:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Joel_W
Originally Posted By: debrucey
It's not a useless statement. Memorisation speed is an incredibly personal thing and how one person memorises a particular piece will not have any bearing on how best you are to memorise the same piece.


True, but it's rather relative. As in, how difficult is the memorization of the finale relative to other more tonally obvious pieces? I didn't ask "how hard will it be for me to memorize this?".


It's not "rather relative" at all because it still boils down to how an individual memorizes; the harmonic clues in the score that help one to memorize may be less obvious to one who memorizes by thinking in a more "scalar" manner as opposed yet again to someone whose memory is helped more by seeing patterns that others don't see or whose memory is helped by "finger memory." How can one put a quantitative value on an answer to the question?

What, by the way, is the point of the question?
Posted by: GeorgeB

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 12:01 PM

There are too many variables to make it relative.

Example:
-People with different musical educations memorize differently
-Ages
-Pianistic Skill and past experience memorizing
-Each brain works differently...
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 12:17 PM

I do see what all of the above mean, but I will take a different route here...

I think that if one can actually provide a 'level of difficulty' for most rather known works (such as the RCM or ABSRM or other levelling system) and if we can agree that individuals can have different strengths and weaknesses in our playing, perhaps it's not absurd to provide a fair and simple reply to this new guy, with the older avatar, who looks familiar and posts even more familiar threads, but calls himself Joe! grin

No?
Posted by: boo1234

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 12:30 PM

I find that difficult pieces where you have to look at your hands a lot are a lot easier to memorize than less difficult ones.
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 01:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I do see what all of the above mean, but I will take a different route here...

I think that if one can actually provide a 'level of difficulty' for most rather known works (such as the RCM or ABSRM or other levelling system) and if we can agree that individuals can have different strengths and weaknesses in our playing, perhaps it's not absurd to provide a fair and simple reply to this new guy [...]

No?


No, because I don't see it as a "fair and simple" response. The other "levelling systems" you speak of are based on overall difficulties, both technical and artistic; the question here is "how difficult to memorize." I think that puts the question in another category entirely, not covered by overall grading systems.

Grading systems, as I know them, are conventionally - although not entirely - grading pieces according to primary technical difficulties where such things as octaves, arpeggios, repeated notes, thirds, etc. (you name it!) are more or less quantifiable. I don't think that memorization is a quantifiable component, and certainly not part of grading systems.

Regards,
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 01:31 PM

Bruce, I don't see why it isn't relative. I would say it's pretty objective that the ballades are harder to memorize than say... the 4th prelude in E minor. So in other words, the ballades are harder to memorize relative to the 4th prelude. No? Why can't the same be applied to sonata 2 finale?
Posted by: Kuanpiano

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 01:44 PM

False...the ballades are much easier IMO because you need to put in the hours to figure out the fingerwork,and you can ingrain the patterns into your muscle memory.

Why all of the names changes..
Posted by: Cheeto717

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 01:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
False...the ballades are much easier IMO because you need to put in the hours to figure out the fingerwork,and you can ingrain the patterns into your muscle memory.



you really believe that? you really believe that memorizing any one of the ballades is "much easier" than memorizing the e minor prelude. REALLY?!
Posted by: Kuanpiano

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 01:49 PM

If I told you that I have had less difficulties memorizing,Rach 2, Chopin's 1st ballade, the Waldstein sonata, Chopin's third and fourth scherzi, the Kapustin variations, than memorizing some tiny Scriabin preludes, or a slow Brahms intermezzi, would you believe me? Cause it's true and you missed the big capital IMO in my original post.

When you work on a big piece, you have bigger issues than trying to memorize the notes, so that works itself out. I've never had to consciously put work into memorizing a large or technically challenging work.


Yes.
Posted by: Cheeto717

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 02:07 PM

Now you've changed your argument. The Chopin e minor prelude is not on the same level as brahms intermezzi or scriabin preludes. I was just wondering if you truly thought it was more difficult to memorize the prelude than any one of the ballades.

Also I recommend you not put such final words like "false" in a sentence you deem to be just your opinion.
Posted by: Kuanpiano

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 02:23 PM

Well, comparing the E minor prelude to say the G sharp minor Scriabin one. Or the E major, or the G flat major (all from op.11). They're all one page, slow, roughly the same form as the Chopin. Why isn't that a fair comparison? I'll admit that the Brahms is more of a stretch...

I think saying that something is "false, IMO" is equally valid as "I think it's pretty objective that..". I was also feeling snarky because I don't usually think someone's "just wondering" if they ask rhetorical statements sounding like "u rly think that? srly bro? o rly? REALLY!?"
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 02:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
"u rly think that? srly bro? o rly? REALLY!?"


lmao
Posted by: Cheeto717

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 03:46 PM

I admit I don't know those preludes you mention off the top of my head, but knowing how closely Scriabin followed the romantic tradition in his early works I'll accept that comparison.

Although I could've expressed it in more eloquent words I still remain skeptical of your original claim.

Happy Practicing!
Posted by: wr

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/15/12 06:37 PM

Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: Joel_W
For those who have learned it, how difficult was the memorization?


Speaking of memorizing : it's getting increasingly difficult to remember who you are with, now, another name change.


Fun fact I just discovered: if you have "Ignore user" placed on someone and they change their ID, their posts will still be hidden. Cool.
Posted by: dolce sfogato

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/16/12 12:16 PM

other than being the shortest movement of the 4, for me it is the 'easiest' for fingers/brains, memorizing wasn't the issue here, it never is now I think of it, but it took me much more time to 'do' the first 2 movements, btw it isn't atonal music at all, just have a closer look.
Posted by: JBB_Piano

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/19/12 02:20 AM

I was about to say "if you've practiced it enough to be able to play it, the memorization shouldn't prove any problem"...then I read the last post. Easiest movement of the four? Wow. I think it's really hard to play presto and leggiero.
Posted by: dolce sfogato

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/22/12 06:49 PM

It is much more difficult, for me that is, to 'project' the 1st movement, to give the 2nd mov. it's drive and melancholy, than to just render the finale, let's not discuss the marche funèbre, because may be that is the biggest problem. If a pianist is capable of performing the b-flat minor sonata, his worries should be in making it stick together as a whole, a single piece in four departments, the finale just being a formality, musically and tecnically, with 'devastating' effect of course.
Posted by: btb

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/23/12 03:17 AM

Does anybody want to mention that the Presto chases up and down IN PARALLEL HANDS? ... and that Chopin splits the giddy ride into FOUR MEASURE darts (ie. 1-4, 5-8, etc).

Going at this wild rate, we need to be reminded NOT to get rowdy ... and respect the composer’s “sotto voce e legato”.

Memorisation is easy because of identical hand patterns (one octave apart).

Only 75 measures breaking your hands ...
and then you need to pour yourself a stiff brandy and soda.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/23/12 11:50 AM

Originally Posted By: btb
....Memorisation is easy because of identical hand patterns (one octave apart)....

I think this is the first time that I sort of agree with btb. ha

The only reason I'm unsure is that most of the time I don't have much idea what he's talking about. grin

A couple of things about how he puts it: I wouldn't flat-out say "easy," but certainly relatively easy -- i.e. compared to many other Chopin works. And btb actually sort of understates the "easiness" with his word choice: It isn't just identical "patterns," it's identical NOTES. There's just one line to learn, and no issue about inner voices, because there aren't any. If you just know how the 'melody' goes, that's all there is -- which isn't the case when there are inner voices and different notes in the lower and upper voices.
Posted by: btb

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/23/12 12:58 PM

Thanks for half-agreeing with me Mark C ... you say
"It isn't just identical "patterns," it's identical NOTES." ... but notes in turn make up NOTE PATTERNS.

kind regards, btb.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale - 11/23/12 04:12 PM

Sure. But "identical patterns" can mean things that are less simple than identical notes. That's why your phrasing understated the simplicity and why this is relatively 'easy' to memorize. But no worries -- your post was way closer to how I see it than anyone else's. smile