Fantasie in F minor, op. 49

Posted by: JoelW

Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/01/13 08:37 PM

When college websites ask for "a romantic work demonstrating significant technical accomplishment" for part of an audition, would the F minor fantasie work, or are they looking for more difficult pieces?
Posted by: BDB

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/01/13 08:46 PM

You could try it and find out. The worst they could do is reject you with a lot of laughing and pointing!

Just kidding! It should be fine.
Posted by: ScriabinAddict

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/01/13 08:52 PM

You say it as if the fantasie is not a hard work. It should be fine.
Posted by: Tim Adrianson

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/01/13 08:54 PM

The Fantaisie is plenty difficult -- certainly would qualify as a demonstration of technical accomplishment for a college audition. IMO, really a pretty good candidate in the wealth of possible choices -- like all late Chopin, it is musically very rich and complex in addition to being appropriately virtuosic.
Posted by: carey

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/01/13 08:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Tim Adrianson
The Fantaisie is plenty difficult -- certainly would qualify as a demonstration of technical accomplishment for a college audition. IMO, really a pretty good candidate in the wealth of possible choices -- like all late Chopin, it is musically very rich and complex in addition to being appropriately virtuosic.


Right on !!!! thumb

And Joel - I didn't learn/perform the Fantaisie until grad school. If you can truly pull the piece off as a high school senior, I'm betting the folks you play for in the audition will be impressed.

Posted by: JoelW

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/01/13 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Tim Adrianson
like all late Chopin, it is musically very rich and complex in addition to being appropriately virtuosic.


God, absolutely! I practically avoid early Chopin these days. Nothing compares to his later stuff IMO.
Posted by: emilypianist89

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/01/13 09:41 PM

I am in a Masters in Piano Performance learning this piece! It is plenty difficult! It is not all about flashy technique. This piece requires extremely sensitive playing and a deep understanding of its structure.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 01:25 AM

It's about as difficult a piece as there is.

When I first came to this site, I noticed that this piece was one of the least-discussed major pieces of Chopin. Since it's one of my long-time favorites, I started a thread on it, and was shocked to find that one of the main views expressed was that it was one of the less-difficult major Chopin pieces -- like, that it was a piece that intermediate players could try if they didn't feel up to the Ballades or Scherzi. I know that such things are subjective, but.....not always. With all due respect to the other side.....OK, with at least a tiny amount of respect ha ....that's total baloney. I can sort of understand the view, if what they're thinking of is (as is sometimes the case) "except for the hard parts." grin
Or if they're not talking about aiming for anything beyond a cautious and timid performance.

You don't have to worry that the people doing the selection at the college will have that view. They'll regard the piece as it really is.
Posted by: Kreisler

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 02:13 AM

I'll add my voice to the choir. The f minor fantasie is a major work, suitable for any audition or competition in the world.
Posted by: ChopinAddict

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 02:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C

You don't have to worry that the people doing the selection at the college will have that view. They'll regard the piece as it really is.


+1
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 04:40 AM

In the last Chopin Competition, the Polonaise-Fantasie Op.61 seemed to be regarded as the ultimate test of a pianist's musicianship in this composer. Personally, I think the accolade applies even more to the Fantasie.
Posted by: izaldu

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 08:59 AM

Ever since i first listened to it, it is my favourite Chopin long work. And the one of which i find the smallest number of truly great performances.

Egorov's being my favourite.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 10:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Joel_W
When college websites ask for "a romantic work demonstrating significant technical accomplishment" for part of an audition, would the F minor fantasie work, or are they looking for more difficult pieces?
IMO the fact that you think this work might not be difficult enough either means you already have a high professional level technique more typical of a top conservatory graduate or that you don't understand how difficult it is.
Posted by: emilypianist89

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 12:18 PM

And, another point of interest, I had many people suggest that I use this piece for my DMA auditions this winter, and I am in fact using it for that.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 02:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
I started a thread on it, and was shocked to find that one of the main views expressed was that it was one of the less-difficult major Chopin pieces -- like, that it was a piece that intermediate players could try if they didn't feel up to the Ballades or Scherzi.


This is exactly why I asked you fine people.
Posted by: Orange Soda King

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 03:09 PM

The Fantasie in F Minor Op. 49 is substantial enough for any audition.

Also your Chopin-with-sunglasses picture needs a caption that says "Deal With It." wink
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 03:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
The Fantasie in F Minor Op. 49 is substantial enough for any audition.

Also your Chopin-with-sunglasses picture needs a caption that says "Deal With It." wink


You know... I actually took that part out, but I'm starting to wonder if I shouldn't have. laugh
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 03:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
[...]
Also your Chopin-with-sunglasses picture needs a caption that says "Deal With It." wink


.. and I find that "signature photograph" a very annoying distraction. It could at least be reduced considerably in size.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 03:26 PM

Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
[...]
Also your Chopin-with-sunglasses picture needs a caption that says "Deal With It." wink


.. and I find that "signature photograph" a very annoying distraction. It could at least be reduced considerably in size.


Posted by: Kuanpiano

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 03:53 PM

So mature!
Posted by: asthecrowflies

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 04:30 PM

I think the Fantasie is every bit as hard technically as most of his non-sonata long works. Perhaps not as difficult as the schubert and schumann fantasies though i think few college applicants will have those under their belts!
Posted by: asthecrowflies

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 04:32 PM

(if your name isn't George Li, of course)
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 05:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
So mature!


Bruce was practically begging for it. But then again it likely means nothing considering Bruce and most of PW probably don't know what that meme is. (or memes in general)
Posted by: GeorgeB

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 05:31 PM

It isn't as musically demanding as the polonaise fantasie and I found the barcarolle to be harder technically.
Posted by: beet31425

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 06:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Joel_W
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
So mature!


Bruce was practically begging for it. But then again it likely means nothing considering Bruce and most of PW probably don't know what that meme is. (or memes in general)


I know what a meme is (both in the sense from a few years ago and the more recent Reddit-y sense), and I hate images in PW signatures, yours definitely included! Sorry! (And please do consider changing it because I bet a lot of us find it distracting. smile )

As for the difficulty of op.49, I think that given a few months, I could do it justice. I cannot say that for about 40-50% of the Chopin etudes, by comparison.


-J
Posted by: ScriabinAddict

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: asthecrowflies
i think few college applicants will have those under their belts!


You'd be surprised. wink
Posted by: Damon

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 08:29 PM

Originally Posted By: beet31425

I know what a meme is (both in the sense from a few years ago and the more recent Reddit-y sense), and I hate images in PW signatures, yours definitely included! Sorry! (And please do consider changing it because I bet a lot of us find it distracting. smile )

-J


I "dealt with it". Adblock to the rescue. Someone else used a cartoon in their signature that I blocked. You can alternatively turn signatures off in your user preferences.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/02/13 09:12 PM

Originally Posted By: asthecrowflies
I think the Fantasie is every bit as hard technically as most of his non-sonata long works.

Actually harder than most of those other pieces, IMO -- technically as well as musically.

Quote:
Perhaps not as difficult as the schubert and schumann fantasies....

At least as hard.
Posted by: Aldous

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/03/13 12:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Joel_W
When college websites ask for "a romantic work demonstrating significant technical accomplishment" for part of an audition, would the F minor fantasie work, or are they looking for more difficult pieces?


Let's cut to the chase, okay, folks? Anyone asking this question is begging for compliments.

Right? I mean, really, he's saying, "I'm considering the F minor Fantasie. Do you think it's REALLY and truly hard enough and impressive enough for a college audition??"

Surely this student has a TEACHER who would advise him? Yes? Why not go there first for advice?

He's fishing. Perhaps, even trolling. The F minor Fantasie is big league stuff and we all know it. Any high school kid who could master this could get into any decent program. And any high school kid who has to ASK if it's impressive enough is a poseur.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/03/13 12:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Aldous
Let's cut to the chase, okay, folks? Anyone asking this question is begging for compliments.

I don't think so. Who knows, maybe you're right, but it doesn't give me that impression at all.

Quote:
He's fishing. Perhaps, even trolling. The F minor Fantasie is big league stuff and we all know it.

I guess that means you'd be surprised by the many other posters who've said it's not that hard.

Quote:
And any high school kid who has to ASK if it's impressive enough is a poseur.

Do you remember how you were in high school? grin

Be that as it may ha ....I first studied this piece when I was in college. After I just started it, I read that the piece was very hard (I still even remember the way it was put: "I know of no more difficult work...."), it surprised me, and I went and asked my teacher if it was really considered that hard.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/03/13 01:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Aldous
He's fishing. Perhaps, even trolling.


Neither, actually. Crazy, right?!
Posted by: spk

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/03/13 10:43 PM

are you kidding me, man?
The Fantasie is licentiate diploma level stuff.
Posted by: btb

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 01:15 AM

Is part of the “difficulty-level” of Chopin’s Fantasia Opus 49 due to the sight-reading of the big LH “jumps” to the score? (especially from m21-m32)
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 01:26 AM

Originally Posted By: btb
Is part of the “difficulty-level” of Chopin’s Fantasia Opus 49 due to the sight-reading of the big LH “jumps” to the score? (especially from m21-m32)

Are you joking? grin

Nothing whatsoever to do with the "sight-reading," nor with the score reading. smile

It's the playing.

And those measures near the beginning are far from the most demanding part of the piece! (Didn't even count measures; I didn't have to. Nothing so early in the piece is anything like that.) Musically they do present challenges, but....that's subtle.

P.S. You know a lot.
Didn't you really know all that? grin
Posted by: btb

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 02:07 AM

Well, well Mark ... you trash my opinion ... so I’ll put on my crash helmet.

I’ve just played through the first 32 measures on my Grotrian Steinweg and can’t see the difficulty ... but then as you know, I use a graphic system of writing music which has given me the advantage of easy prima vista playing.

In typical Chopin layout the first statement is contained in the opening 4 measures ... by m11-12 Fred grumbles a repeat of m5-6 with LH chords deep down in the bass.

However from m20 we get a jerky divergence of hands ... with the LH moving DOWN and the RH moving UP.

Might I ask (please no rocks) if you can play the first 32 measures of the Fantasia?

Kind regards, btb

Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 03:16 AM

Oy. ha

btb, I see that you actually answered it yourself!

Originally Posted By: btb
....I’ve just played through the first 32 measures on my Grotrian Steinweg and can’t see the difficulty....

Right!
And play on further, my friend!

BTW, I didn't trash your opinion. What I did was, I doubted that it was your actual opinion.
I do think you know better. Much better. smile

Maybe the whole problem is that I still don't really know how to read your posts.... grin
Posted by: carey

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 09:02 AM

btb -

With all due respect, the real fun doesn't start until later in the piece - jump to 2:40 in this video and you'll "hear" what I mean (follow along with the score).

http://youtu.be/c0WTVy7XhlE

And here's Part 2, starting with the prayer-like middle section.....

http://youtu.be/kEWdl8YJCAg

Cheers !!
Posted by: btb

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 10:02 AM

Thanks for that carey ...

Thanks chaps ... I’ve dug out the Fantaisie Opus 49 disc ... and carefully listened to the rendition with the 18-page score in hand.
(composed in 1841 when Chopin was 31 years old.)

But, upon coming back to the ranch
(putting my six-shooter on the mantlepiece till I next see Mark) ... why would anybody want to choose this Fantaisie to impress the judges ... when there is a wagon-load of breathtaking Chopin works crying out for a daring airing?

The Fantasy structure is any composer’s excuse to bend the rules ... and frig around with tempo and indulge in inconsequential rubato ... with lashings of scalar and chromatic runs ... boring stuff.

When the chappie gets it right as with the Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66 ... we all go into adoration mode.

But I suppose the OP chappie is looking for something which is not “run-of-the-mill” (perhaps layered in dust and possibly on the skids for eternal hibernation (remembering that this work is posthumous and only published after the death of Chopin in 1849.)

My guess is that Chopin didn’t want this work to see the light of day ... he had already written his masterpiece ... Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66.

Well, well ... I feel better now.
Posted by: argerichfan

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 10:40 AM

Originally Posted By: carey

With all due respect, the real fun doesn't start until later in the piece - jump to 2:40 in this video and you'll "hear" what I mean

YT videos always stall out at work, so not sure what is happening @ 2:40, but I always thought the real 'festivities' of the piece commenced at measure 109 with the contrarily moving octaves. Few passages I can immediately think of are so prone to inaccuracies at full tempo.

Some years ago I heard a famous pianist completely bomb out at that point in concert. I felt really badly for him. (Out of respect, the pianist will remain anonymous, but it's a name everyone on this board knows.)
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 11:44 AM

Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: carey

With all due respect, the real fun doesn't start until later in the piece - jump to 2:40 in this video and you'll "hear" what I mean

YT videos always stall out at work, so not sure what is happening @ 2:40, but I always thought the real 'festivities' of the piece commenced at measure 109 with the contrarily moving octaves. Few passages I can immediately think of are so prone to inaccuracies at full tempo.

Some years ago I heard a famous pianist completely bomb out at that point in concert. I felt really badly for him. (Out of respect, the pianist will remain anonymous, but it's a name everyone on this board knows.)


I watched the great No-Wrong-Notes Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli split a note there once...

But I think you're referring to someone else.

For a wrong-note passage, I think the coda to the March of Schumann's Fantasy in C takes the biscuit. Horowitz's comeback concert was particularly dire - even after he patched up a few notes on his so-called 'live' recording released on LP. I obtained the back-to-basics unadulterated version that Sony (much later) released on CD....
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 12:45 PM

Originally Posted By: btb
....why would anybody want to choose this Fantaisie to impress the judges ... when there is a wagon-load of breathtaking Chopin works crying out for a daring airing?

The Fantasy structure is any composer’s excuse to bend the rules ... and frig around with tempo and indulge in inconsequential rubato ... with lashings of scalar and chromatic runs ... boring stuff.

When the chappie gets it right as with the Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66 ... we all go into adoration mode....

My guess is that Chopin didn’t want this work to see the light of day ... he had already written his masterpiece ... Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66....

Double oy. grin

BTW that last thing, about Chopin not wanting the piece to see the light of day, is clearly mistaken.

btb, even after being together on this site for about 100 years, I still don't know how serious you are about 90% of what you say, and I'd bet you've been pulling our leg with most of this. But you do have a unique and creative style. smile
Posted by: carey

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 02:30 PM

Originally Posted By: btb

My guess is that Chopin didn’t want this work to see the light of day ... he had already written his masterpiece ... Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66.
Well, well ... I feel better now.


Glad you feel better - but you're wrong !!

From the Vancouver Chopin Society Website regarding the Opus 49....

"This large-scaled composition is considered one of Chopin’s masterpieces. The Fantasy opens with a solemn and mysterious march-like introduction leading to a passionate drama with a central chorale, Lento sostenuto, of unusual serenity. Niecks felt “Chopin’s genius had now reached the most perfect stage of its development and was radiating with all the intensity of which its nature was capable.” "

As for the Opus 66 Fantaisie-Impromptu - it was published against Chopin's wishes after his death. Apparently he didn't feel it was up to snuff. crazy
Posted by: Ridicolosamente

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 02:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Joel_W
Seems like something out of Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter.

-Daniel
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 06:34 PM

Help me out. smile

Is it possible that someone as knowledgeable as btb would have really thought the main difficulty was where he said, and that he would have doubted that someone even half-accomplished would be able easily to play the notes? I really can't imagine it -- and most of the time I can imagine almost anything. ha

I think this is a little important. It's good to know how seriously to take things. smile
Posted by: Damon

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 06:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Help me out. smile

Is it possible that someone as knowledgeable as btb would have really thought the main difficulty was where he said, and that he would have doubted that someone even half-accomplished would be able easily to play the notes? I really can't imagine it -- and most of the time I can imagine almost anything. ha

I think this is a little important. It's good to know how seriously to take things. smile


I think your premise is faulty.
Posted by: carey

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 06:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Help me out. smile

Is it possible that someone as knowledgeable as btb would have really thought the main difficulty was where he said, and that he would have doubted that someone even half-accomplished would be able easily to play the notes? I really can't imagine it -- and most of the time I can imagine almost anything. ha

I think this is a little important. It's good to know how seriously to take things. smile


Mark - One thing I've learned around here is to not make assumptions about anything....... ha

btb was either serious - or pulling our collective legs.

Nevertheless, I offered the info above, in part, just to see how he'd react. (Testing the waters so to speak.......) wink
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/04/13 06:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Damon
I think your premise is faulty.

If you mean the premise that I think you mean grin ....I can see how one might think that, and for quite a while I easily sort of assumed it myself, until I saw (to my satisfaction, which doesn't mean it's right) that it's as I said. smile

BTW if Stores were still here, he'd have a field day with this post.

In fact, I can do it myself!


"Wow, just wow." ha
Posted by: btb

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/05/13 02:20 AM

Adding a bow to Mark's "wow" (see bottom of page)

Later generations are said to regard the
Fantaisie Opus 49 of Chopin as a masterpiece ...
but not this chicken ...
Chalk and cheese after I had played the Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66.

And let it be said from the rooftops ... as you chaps well know ...
I know better.

PS I'm homeless ... but a piece of cardboard shields the rain ...
it’s passing dogs with raised legs who need watching.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/05/13 02:42 AM

You're a poet, and you know it. smile

Originally Posted By: btb
And let it be said from the rooftops ... as you chaps well know ...
I know better.

Yes, I thought so.


And I hope you're not serious about that last part, and I suspect you're not, among other reasons because I don't think very many homeless are able to be active on the internet, but who knows....and if you are serious, I can only say I hope you're all right.
Posted by: btb

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/05/13 03:03 AM

Thanks for staying in the mix Mark ... anything I say will always have a lampooning jibe ... to unhinge any straight-laced stay-at-homes ... and remind them that there is a lot of fun out there ... if they get off their backsides and smell the roses ... sometimes a case of grab the nettle! ( but I wear gloves).

The Internet provides a marvellous phantasy world ...
where the daring can go on a magic carpet ride to hitherto undreamt worlds.

PS Must just tell you that I’ve dredged up a stunning record of the King ‘s Singers ...

The Windmills of Your Mind
I’m a Train
Fool On the Hill
Java Jive
Life on Mars
A Horse with No Name
She’s Leaving Home
God Bless Joanna
Strawberry Hills Forever
For the Peace of all Mankind
A Taste of Honey

Anybody remember?

Hang in there Mike!
Posted by: carey

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/05/13 09:36 AM

Originally Posted By: btb

Later generations are said to regard the
Fantaisie Opus 49 of Chopin as a masterpiece ...
but not this chicken ...


Nice to know that YOU really know better.......... grin
Posted by: AZNpiano

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/05/13 01:24 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
For a wrong-note passage

I immediately think of the jumping octaves in Scherzo No. 3.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/05/13 01:40 PM

Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: bennevis
For a wrong-note passage

I immediately think of the jumping octaves in Scherzo No. 3.

Hard for me to see the octaves in the Scherzo being nearly as risky or challenging as those in the Fantaisie -- in any event, they aren't for me, and I don't hear people messing them up or making musical sacrifices on them nearly as much as in the Fantaisie. I know that there's a lot more of them in the Scherzo, but I don't see them being nearly as hard.
Posted by: dolce sfogato

Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 - 01/05/13 06:47 PM

not harder than the jumping octaves in the scherzo of op.35 for me, or some awkward moves in op.25/10