Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic?

Posted by: Mark_C

Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 02:46 PM

I'm pretty far removed from the digital piano world, although several friends have them (in addition to their "regular" pianos) and I happened to be in school near where Moog was doing his synthesizers in the '60's and went to some early demonstrations. Most of what I see and hear about it now is on this site, when I glance sometimes at that other section. I understand very little of what they're talking about, and in my gut I don't really consider it the same instrument that 'we' play. But I do appreciate more and more what it offers, how the technology has been advancing, and, I have to admit, the advantages over 'our' piano, although believe me I feel that what gets lost is much greater. Still, while I hope the acoustic piano will survive forever, I'd guess it won't be that long before it becomes essentially a relic. How long? I'd guess as short as 100 years -- about 3 generations of human beings, assuming the world lasts that long. shocked
I think there's a high chance that as soon as 50 years from now, relatively few people will feel there's a reason to invest the greater money and space on acoustic pianos, and within another couple of generations after that, they will rarely be seen.

What do you think?
Posted by: Polyphonist

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 03:02 PM

That would be very sad, I hope I won't live to that day if it ever happens. Digitals are vastly inferior to acoustics in almost every way possible, except convenience and portability.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 03:02 PM

It will never be a relic. Ever.

And I have 2 digital grands, 1 synth keyboard, 13 hardware synths, 2 samplers + at least 120 software synths and a 5 Tb sampler library.

In this part of the woods, the piano business is solid and growing.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 03:06 PM

Originally Posted By: chrisbell
It will never be a relic. Ever.

And I have 2 digital grands, 1 synth keyboard, 13 hardware synths, 2 samplers + at least 120 software synths and a 5 Tb sampler library....

Sounds like a very strong vote, coming from someone like you. I hope you're right. smile

BTW, why multiple digitals?
(Sorry about the stupid question, but as I said, I don't really know anything.) ha
Posted by: mermilylumpkin

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 03:12 PM

I don't know that the same laws of technological change apply to musical instruments as the rest of the world. On a hypothetical level, you'd imagine that violin makers would have been able to benefit from the years and years they've had to refine their craft and further analyze various acoustical properties, yet it's the original Strads and Guarneris that fetch top dollar. There's obviously various reasons for this, but one of them may well be that instrumentalists place less value on the notion of the latest state of the art technology.

Is there really a digital piano that compares with the acoustical properties of a Steinway or Fazioli? At best, the tone would be a copy from an acoustic piano. I'd imagine pianists prefer acoustic to digital for much the same reason hardcore audiophiles would rather listen to vinyl than an mp3 which is really a copy of a copy of a copy. The mechanics of a piano is just so different than the mechanics of a digital keyboard, on a micro level anyway, I always feel like I'm playing a different instrument when I switch from one to the other.
Posted by: BDB

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 03:23 PM

Strads and Guarneris have been modified to bring them up to today's standards, with new necks, fingerboards and strings, among other things. The bows of the time are considered obsolete, as well. Unmodified they are less desirable.
Posted by: FSO

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 03:36 PM

The technology *will* get good enough to replicate harmonic resonance, woodiness etc. Um...another couple of decades and I believe we will see and hear digital pianos outstrip acoustic pianos in terms of space, cost and dare I suggest sound? However, there will always be acoustics around; just as acoustic guitars have taken a back seat but are still around. I mean...I only own a digital, but as soon as I live somewhere with a mortgage (as opposed to renting) it'll be all acoustic-y....and why? Because "real" pianos have more soul. Because wood is infinitely superior to plastic...just because! laugh Um...I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels such...just one thing keeps me sure the piano won't be graved by the digital disease: resources. More and more wood grows every year (well, less, but you get the point laugh ); some precious metals (which will be required for the *best* circuitry to provide the *best* sound) are pretty finite...um...mermilylumpkin; the audiophile comment is, perhaps, a tad unjustified; our ears adapt to small differences and find homes of listening...so, um, when someone used to listening to vinyl hears the minute difference in mp3 they don't *feel* the music quite as deeply, even if they're *technically* hearing a better version...of course, um, this doesn't deal with the youngsters, but that's cult followings for you laugh I agree regarding sensitivity in touch by the way; I've many times considered stop playing my portable grand as (and thus all instruments as it is the only one I have access to), I feel, it is teaching me improper sensitivity and pedaling habits...um...I fear each note extra will unprepare me one note further from the piano laugh
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 03:50 PM

" ... will become..."? I have played some acoustic pianos that have already become 'relics.' smile

Cheers!
Posted by: jeffreyjones

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 03:58 PM

Digitals are getting pretty good. But, they don't come anywhere near filling a large space the way a concert grand does. There's only so much you can do with a pair of speakers. I don't see any way to cure this shortcoming; you need all of the heavy, earthen and organic material of a piano to replicate the full experience for your audience.
Posted by: Hakki

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 04:00 PM

This topic comes on and off occasionally.
My first reaction is that, guessing about the future of acoustic piano and even disagreeing on our guesses is somewhat meaningless. Because non of us will live that long, and therefore any guess is as worthless as the other.

Secondly, the digital pianos, besides the piano sound, can also produce other instrument sounds, such as string, wind, percussion etc. instruments.
Now, I don't see any, and really ANY, difference between the sound being produced whether it is a wind instrument sound or a piano sound.
Would you be able to persuade a clarinetist that the clarinet sound produced by a digital piano is any close to what he is hearing when he plays his instrument?
The same, is as valid for me. In the end it is a digitally produced artificial sound.

Despite all the above, and though I find it meaningless, yet it has been requested by Mark, here is my guess:

I agree with Mark.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 04:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Hakki
Despite all the above....here is my guess:

I agree with Mark.

Even though it sucks?? ha
("It" meaning two things: the DP, and what we're saying.)

Indeed that was a surprise ending to your post!
Posted by: Polyphonist

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 04:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Hakki
Because non of us will live that long,


The kids on this forum might. smile
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 05:02 PM

I think it could acoustics could become obsolete as far as amateur players are concerned but I'm pretty sure there will always the demand for "the real thing" from at least an elite group of professionals. That will keep at least some acoustic makers in business. After all, "they" still make harpsichords and lutes.
Posted by: SBP

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 05:05 PM

I hope they don't.

Personally, I hope that acoustics will evolve away from the loud beasts they are today. That would sure make them more pleasant to play for long periods :P

Mostly, the problem with digitals is that the very best ones are basically just pianos without strings. What's the point of that? You might as well put the strings and soundboard in. Hybrid pianos seem to be the way to go, if you must have a digital piano and an acoustic.
Posted by: Hakki

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 05:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Despite all the above....here is my guess:

I agree with Mark.

Even though it sucks?? ha
("It" meaning two things: the DP, and what we're saying.)

Indeed that was a surprise ending to your post!


But DP's suck today. It doesn't mean they will still suck a hundred years later.
My worthless guess is that, they probably won't.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 05:23 PM

They don't suck today. I have been hunting for a digital piano the past couple of weeks, originally out of necessity. But I'm now very excited to get one, so blown away was I by how far along the technology has come even in the last year or so.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 05:24 PM

Having put my foot into the digital camp when I joined this forum in 2010, which was when I bought my first piano - a digital, I have to admit that the only reason I bought it was because it was either that or nothing: neighbors surrounding me would never tolerate me playing an acoustic. But I was quite pleasantly surprised at how good digitals (or at least the one I bought) have become, in emulating so many characteristics of the real thing. Such that ever since, I won't play on any acoustic that's out of tune or obviously decrepit, whereas before, I'd play on anything that resembled a piano, as long as it was mechanical.....

But of course, I still hanker after a Bösendorfer Imperial 290 or Fazioli F308. Or even a Yamaha CFX, or a Blüthner Model 1, or C.Bechstein D282. Even a Steinway D272 will be fine grin. (In my dreams......).

But with the increasing deforestation around the world as populations keep expanding exponentially, I can't see acoustics staying around forever - especially as digitals (especially of the modeled variety, like my V-Piano) keep improving. I remember when CD first appeared: how could numbers (with error correction built in) possibly give good quality sound for discerning classical listeners, compared to vinyl LP, where all the information from the master tape is in the grooves?
Well, how many of us listen to, or even own any LPs now (assuming we're old enough to know what they look like....)? I haven't played any of mine for decades, and all my favorite recordings on LP have now been duplicated on subsequent CD releases, which I've acquired.

The really odd thing is that most people now listen to music on far inferior MP3 format and YouTube recordings. The audiophiles of yesteryear would be aghast that we happily tolerate dynamic compression (such that pp becomes mf plus hiss), distortion, frequency loss etc, etc. Who's to say that even if digitals never attain the 'live' experience of playing on a fully mechanical instrument, we wouldn't switch over to them in droves simply for their convenience, their ability to stay in tune indefinitely, the fact that they need no maintenance whatsoever and can tolerate any temperature and (lack of) humidity?

If you haven't heard a modeled DP played by a classical pianist in a concert hall before, have a listen to this: http://youtu.be/w0-dC7eT_Oo
I played Schumann/Liszt's Widmung and other pieces on that digital in the Royal College of Music concert hall in London two years ago, and truly felt like I was playing on a well-regulated (and perfectly tuned) grand, such was its range of tone color, dynamics and responsiveness.
Posted by: LarryShone

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 05:29 PM

I very much doubt acoustics will ever become mere relics. Its not just a case of technology being on a par with acoustic engineering, its something 'other', something tactile! New materials replacing wood maybe (there are some high end acoustic guitars made of carbon that are used by professional players now).
So no, I dont think acoustics will ever disappear, especially in professional circles.
Posted by: Hakki

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 05:44 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis

If you haven't heard a modeled DP played by a classical pianist in a concert hall before, have a listen to this: http://youtu.be/w0-dC7eT_Oo
I played Schumann/Liszt's Widmung and other pieces on that digital in the Royal College of Music concert hall in London two years ago, and truly felt like I was playing on a well-regulated (and perfectly tuned) grand, such was its range of tone color, dynamics and responsiveness.


This is very typical of how different all of us can be.
To me, this is just what I mean, when I say it sucks. Right from the very first note.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 06:02 PM

To my ears VI Labs True Keys is the best sounding virtual piano on the market
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zBYtrClM5k

No one can say it doesn't sound better than this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8frV3I8OM4
Posted by: Mwm

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 06:12 PM

I have had a grand for 48 years, and a DP for 27 years, as well as a clavichord. They each serve a niche in my playing and performing. With a good grand, you feel the string vibrations through the keys, since the whole physical structure of the acoustic piano participates and contributes to the sound. Being able to respond, not only to the sound of the notes and to the action, but also to the vibrations makes one feel part of the instrument, something that, as far as I know, has not been simulated on a DP (yet). Until it does, my guess is that performers, at least, will demand acoustic pianos.
Posted by: Hakki

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 06:27 PM

Say, when pianists play the same Steinway D, for example, Cliburn, Rubinstein, Horowitz, etc., they produce completely different sounds from the very same piano. You might even recognize who is who.

For now, I don't think such a thing is possible with DPs.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 06:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Mwm
I have had a grand for 48 years, and a DP for 27 years, as well as a clavichord. They each serve a niche in my playing and performing. With a good grand, you feel the string vibrations through the keys, since the whole physical structure of the acoustic piano participates and contributes to the sound. Being able to respond, not only to the sound of the notes and to the action, but also to the vibrations makes one feel part of the instrument, something that, as far as I know, has not been simulated on a DP (yet). Until it does, my guess is that performers, at least, will demand acoustic pianos.
It has been done on the Yamaha Avant Grand as of a few years ago.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 06:34 PM

I think the huge percentage of pianists, including those on this thread who hate the sound of digitals/hybrids, would have difficulty telling the difference in a blind test.

Some time ago a good pianist posted a recording in the Members Recordings forum. Many praised the recording and some began asking about the piano and guessing what piano it was. The recording was done on a digital or hybrid, but no one guessed this.
Posted by: patH

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 06:35 PM

I don't think it will die out. Not before the end of humanity as we know it, anyway.
Just like the synthesizer did not replace every other instrument, the digital piano will not replace the acoustic piano.

However, I believe that spinets and console pianos might die out eventually. They have poorer action than proper uprights, and therefore no real advantage over digital pianos. Unless you intend to play the piano during the next power outage.
Posted by: jeffreyjones

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 06:37 PM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the huge percentage of pianists, including those on this thread who hate the sound of digitals/hybrids, would have difficulty telling the difference in a blind test.


Not if I was sitting in the back of a concert hall.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 06:48 PM

Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the huge percentage of pianists, including those on this thread who hate the sound of digitals/hybrids, would have difficulty telling the difference in a blind test.


Not if I was sitting in the back of a concert hall.
Yes, I agree that in a space like that digitals are lacking.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 07:23 PM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the huge percentage of pianists, including those on this thread who hate the sound of digitals/hybrids, would have difficulty telling the difference in a blind test.

I sure do, at least in online postings. After seeing this first part of your post, I was going to mention about how I was fooled by a posted recording, similarly to what you talked about in the next part. I don't think it was the one you referred to, but....it was of Chopin's 1st Etude. I did a detailed reply and then was pretty mad when it turned out that this wasn't "real" playing; not only was it on a digital, but the tempo and dynamics were played with after the fact. There was another thread more recently where apparently the posted recording was a doctored digital. Even after some people said this was obviously what it was, I couldn't tell and had no idea what enabled them to know.

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Having put my foot into the digital camp when I joined this forum in 2010, which was when I bought my first piano - a digital....

Maybe showing my bigotry about DP's grin I was very surprised to see this! Through your posts, we know that you're a very serious and very knowledgeable classical piano person, and I wouldn't have expected that you'd be coming from a DP. I guess it also shows how far DP's have come -- farther than I knew, even though I do realize what Debrucey said, that they've been advancing ever more rapidly, even just in the past year.

Originally Posted By: Hakki
Say, when pianists play the same Steinway D, for example, Cliburn, Rubinstein, Horowitz, etc., they produce completely different sounds from the very same piano. You might even recognize who is who.
For now, I don't think such a thing is possible with DPs.

Besides how what you have in mind might be more possible as DP's continue advancing, I think there could also be recognizable differences from the different creative ways that people use the "settings." (Sorry, I'm sure I'm not using the right term, but I mean the programming and adjusting of the kinds of sounds.)
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 07:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C


Originally Posted By: bennevis
Having put my foot into the digital camp when I joined this forum in 2010, which was when I bought my first piano - a digital....

Maybe showing my bigotry about DP's grin I was very surprised to see this! Through your posts, we know that you're a very serious and very knowledgeable classical piano person, and I wouldn't have expected that you'd be coming from a DP. I guess it also shows how far DP's have come -- farther than I knew, even though I do realize what Debrucey said, that they've been advancing ever more rapidly, even just in the past year.



You wouldn't be surprised to learn that I was quite a bigot about the uselessness of DPs for the discerning classical pianist, until I actually decided to buy one for myself in 2010 grin - when reality set in, and I realized I was really fed up of not having a piano to practise on at home, and having to rely on doing the circuits of piano showrooms, occasionally hiring a practice room, or playing on decrepit instruments wherever I could find them....

Until then I'd never touched a DP - not even with a barge pole, with garlic around my neck and holy water ready for sprinkling....... wink
Posted by: Lemon Pledge

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 07:57 PM

Digitals do not come anywhere close to replicating the sound of an acoustic piano, and if their progress during the last 25 years can be extrapolated forward, they never will. They are interesting and useful instruments in their own right, but completely different. And so I don't believe that the acoustic piano will ever be reduced to a true relic, because the music that was written for it (or its cousins) over 250-300 years is just too damn good; someone will always want to play the piano repertoire, and digitals will never suffice for it.

However, I suppose I can imagine a future in which good composers stop writing for it. Not a likely future, imo, but a possible one.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 08:01 PM

Disagree. They definitely will reach a point where the differences in sound become very hard to tell, at least in small room settings and when compared to acoustic instruments of the same price point. Moreover, I think we will reach that point within 10 years.

I hasten to add that I don't think that digital pianos will REPLACE acoustic ones, not do I think they should.

I know many piano teachers who will refuse to teach children unless they have an acoustic piano. I find this sad. A good acoustic piano is beyond the budget of many UK households, especially in the current climate. The merits of digital pianos should not be so quickly dismissed.
Posted by: ChopinAddict

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 08:02 PM

Hopefully not in our lifetime!
Posted by: Lemon Pledge

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 08:05 PM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
Disagree. They definitely will reach a point where the differences in sound become very hard to tell, at least in small room settings and when compared to acoustic instruments of the same price point. Moreover, I think we will reach that point within 10 years.


Absolutely no chance, imo. On my scale, if digitals 25 years ago were at 1, and if the situation you describe above is represented by 100, digitals are now at 3. Not happening in 10 years, unless they take a completely new and different technical approach, one that's beyond my current imagination.

Edit: I didn't notice your "same price point" condition. That makes for an uninteresting comparison. Good acoustics cost real $, and always will, while the cost of digitals could theoretically get Foxconned down to almost nothing.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 08:10 PM

Which digitals have you played on?

I am used to regularly playing steinway B's and D's, and I was still very impressed by the high end digital models I sampled recently. They felt better to play than most upright pianos I have played.

Not that this is really a fair comparison. I think it's quite important to consider than digital pianos are much cheaper than acoustic pianos, therefore it's unreasonable to expect them to be able to sound the same as a piano that costs £100,000.

Edit: Just saw your edit
Posted by: Lemon Pledge

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 08:16 PM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
Which digitals have you played on?

I am used to regularly playing steinway B's and D's, and I was still very impressed by the high end digital models I sampled recently. They felt better to play than most upright pianos I have played.


I try out the new models every couple years, just to see what's going on. Maybe you've played a model that I haven't played. But I don't need to play them to know what they sound like; listening to them is enough. If you can recommend a particular model, I'll play it within the next few weeks and report back.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 08:23 PM

Newer models have to played in person to compare. They don't sound as good through headphones, or a computer, the sound is too 'clean'. The Kawai CA-95 for example, has a wooden soundboard, which gives the sound a much warmer, resonant sound, and when playing it you feel the whole instrument (and the room) vibrate in the same way you do with a real piano. The action it uses has full length (inside the case I mean) wooden keys which pivot like a grand piano action and uses the same lever mechanism, although on smaller scale. The shiny plasticy keys of yesteryear are replaced with ones which look and feel like ivory. It really does feel very convincing. The yamaha Avant Grand series have real grand piano actions in them, and as such feel indistinguishable from playing a grand piano (but in the size of an upright).
Posted by: Lemon Pledge

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 08:25 PM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
Newer models have to played in person to compare. They don't sound as good through headphones, or a computer, the sound is too 'clean'. The Kawai CA-95 for example, has a wooden soundboard, which gives the sound a much warmer, resonant sound, and when playing it you feel the whole instrument (and the room) vibrate in the same way you do with a real piano. The action it uses has full length (inside the case I mean) wooden keys which pivot like a grand piano action and uses the same lever mechanism, although on smaller scale. The shiny plasticy keys of yesteryear are replaced with ones which look and feel like ivory. It really does feel very convincing. The yamaha Avant Grand series have real grand piano actions in them, and as such feel indistinguishable from playing a grand piano (but in the size of an upright).


I've tried Avant Grands already. Will check out the Kawai. My comments above are about the sound, not the feel.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 08:28 PM

I'm looking forward to the release of the Kawai CS10, which is essentially the CA-95, but inside the same case as their K-2 acoustic pianos.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 08:31 PM

One also has to consider what the instrument is going to be used for. If, like me, you are a (soon to be ex) conservatoire student who needs a practice instrument for complex and difficult music but you can't afford an acoustic piano that is good enough, you can't do much better than the avant grand. Sure, the sound is not quite there yet, but essentially you are paying £5000 for a high quality grand piano action that would otherwise cost you many times that and take up many times the space. For my purposes, the action is more important than the sound, and that is something that modern digital pianos do very well.
Posted by: Lemon Pledge

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 08:34 PM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
One also has to consider what the instrument is going to be used for. If, like me, you are a (soon to be ex) conservatoire student who needs a practice instrument for complex and difficult music but you can't afford an acoustic piano that is good enough, you can't do much better than the avant grand. Sure, the sound is not quite there yet, but essentially you are paying £5000 for a high quality grand piano action that would otherwise cost you many times that and take up many times the space. For my purposes, the action is more important than the sound, and that is something that modern digital pianos do very well.


That's all very reasonable, but I was never addressing anything here other than the sound of digitals, which is completely unlike the sound of acoustics. That doesn't mean that I think digitals are useless.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 08:39 PM

I think the progress of digitals/hybrids has been astronomically fast. I played a Clavinova in the 90's in countless high school musicals and the the Avant Grand and others are light years beyond that in the space of 20 years or less.

Around thirty years ago the best computer chess programs were very weak. Now some $25 program can beat 99% of chess players and the best computer programs regularly defeat grandmasters. It has gotten to the point where only grandmasters have a chance against the best chess computer programs. In blitz chess, I don't think even the best grandmasters can beat the best computers.

I actually find it hard to believe, based on the exponential improvement in computers and technology, that anyone thinks that non acoustics will not eventually become indistinguishable from acoustics. The only thing that might prevent this is a lack of market for this type of non acoustic piano.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 08:41 PM

It's getting closer though. Digital pianos tend not to sound as good themselves as standalone software packages which are available separately. But if you put the two together, they can sound pretty good.

If I spent £2800 on an yamaha upright, and then spend £2500 on a Kawai CA-95 and £300 on TrueKeys for my laptop and paired them up, I feel confident that I could get more colour, contrast and subtlety out of the digital setup, especially with the features I mentioned like the inclusion of a wooden soundboard.
Posted by: Michael_99

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 09:18 PM

The world, as usual is always changing. When I was a kid I grew up in a trailer so a piano was not possible.

Today an 88 keyed weighted keyed piano can be had for 600 dollars Canadian. When I bought my shack it cost 40, 000 and vehicles cost 3 thousand dollars. Today houses on a small lot cost a million dollars and a condo, 400 sq ft. cost a half a million. Today vehicles cost 50,000. Food is interesting. I remember visiting Japan and seeing produce in small boxes. Today lots of fruit and vegtables come in boxes. Everywhere I look, I see lots of baby carriages with 1 or 2 babies. Today, I understand, that 2,000 people a month move to this city.

The cost of housing and what it means if you own a piano - digital you can play 24/7/365 and an acoustic restricted by neighbours. I love my acoustic piano but the future, who knows. When I was 13 I taught myself to type on a manual typewriter. Today, it is difficult to get ribbons for typewriters and manual and electric typewriters aren't seen. Everyhwere you go people of all ages are holding cell phones, etc.

When the personal computer first came out it was around 4,000 dollars and today laptops can be had for 300 dollars.

The good news is that digitals pianos can put a piano everywhere in the reach of almost anyone who want to learn to play a piano like never before.

When I go to music store the digital keyboards department always has lots of people of all ages. When I go to the acoustic piano department there is only one time that I saw a customer there when I went there. Remember what a descent piano costs, new or old, and what a digital piano costs - less than a monthly paycheque.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 09:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Michael_99

The good news is that digitals pianos can put a piano everywhere in the reach of almost anyone who want to learn to play a piano like never before.


Yes, absolutely. Surely this is something to be celebrated. If I didn't have a digital when I was a teenager, I wuldnt have had a piano at all. I wouldn't be where I am now.
Posted by: yhc

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 09:30 PM

The future of piano I think probably is just like that of the harpsichord today. When later generations ascustom to the tone color of the electronic piano, the piano now will fade but not diminish.
Posted by: ShiroKuro

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 10:06 PM

One thing not mentioned (enough) so far is the organic sound of an acoustic, which I miss terribly now that I only have a digital. I'll probably get pelted with rocks and garbage for saying this, but I used to love how I could hear the weather change in my (acoustic) piano. The instrument was alive to me. I have always loved the differences in the sounds of (acoustic) pianos, what some people complain about to me sounds like the piano's own character. You never get that on a digital.

I had the pleasure of playing a Yamaha Avant Grand for several lessons, and it was very impressive. I would much rather have it than my current wimpy little Yamaha Arius. And given my current living situation (apartment, grad student) I am grateful to have the Arius rather than no piano at all. But these pianos are painfully sterile and their stability is dull. I long for my beloved acoustic and it's personality and warmth. An acoustic piano is organic in a way that a digital one can never be.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 10:15 PM

Unless you could figure out a way of programming in said organicness. It could be done.
Posted by: Mwm

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 10:29 PM

Quick question. On a really good DP, when you hold notes using the sostenuto pedal but don't actually play those notes and then play and release harmonically related chords several octaves higher, do the held notes sing by sympathetic resonance, as in an acoustic piano?
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 10:44 PM

Yes, high end digital pianos now sample sympathetic resonance. The same is true when you lift the sustain pedal. All of the notes resonate, not just the ones you play. I have even tested holding a low C and playing up the harmonic series.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 10:49 PM

The comparison with harpsichords is interesting, but ultimately I think inaccurate. Pianos superseded harpsichords because they were wholly different instruments. Digital pianos tend to be judged largely on how faithfully they recreate the experience of playing an acoustic, i.e the more indistinguishable they are from real pianos the better they are.
Posted by: Kuanpiano

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 11:26 PM

The Avantgrand I own is probably the only reason why I'm able to continue with music right now... it's something that I'm eternally grateful to my family for providing it for me. It's more expensive than a lesser digital, but I don't think I would have able to expand my repertoire to its current state without it.

@Debrucey - LOL, we're playing like the same stuff this year. I also did the 4th ballade and will be performing the Ravel again soon...+ I've fooled around with some Kapustin preludes. Not played at your level however :P.
Posted by: argerichfan

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/15/13 11:27 PM

...
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 01:01 AM

Originally Posted By: ShiroKuro
One thing not mentioned (enough) so far is the organic sound of an acoustic, which I miss terribly now that I only have a digital....I used to love how I could hear the weather change in my (acoustic) piano. The instrument was alive to me. I have always loved the differences in the sounds of (acoustic) pianos, what some people complain about to me sounds like the piano's own character. You never get that on a digital

....given my current living situation...I am grateful to have the Arius rather than no piano at all. But these pianos are painfully sterile and their stability is dull. I long for my beloved acoustic and its personality and warmth. An acoustic piano is organic in a way that a digital one can never be.

I agree. I had never thought of it before as a plus, but yeah. I fight this characteristic of pianos, by working hard to stabilize humidity, temp etc., but I guess I love it too, just as you said.

One of the challenges of performing is feeling out how the piano is at that particular moment and adapting to it. Even if we tried the piano the previous day, or that morning, it'll be a little different when the performance comes around. Just like what I said in the above paragraph, I've viewed this mostly as a 'problem,' but y'know, I also love it. It has become a familiar and wonderful part of the performing routine and helps make each performance a unique moment.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 01:56 AM

Originally Posted By: SBP
I hope they don't.

Personally, I hope that acoustics will evolve away from the loud beasts they are today. That would sure make them more pleasant to play for long periods :P


This is an excellent point.

Why should all quality grands be more appropriate for the concert hall than home?
Posted by: outo

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 03:00 AM

I hope not but...

For professionals it probably won't happen soon, they mostly study on an acoustic and that's what is expected in concerts.

But in homes of the amateurs? I would expect that it might happen for a few reasons: Price, convenience, space.
I was talking to a piano dealer the other day and he said he sells quite a few grands to older people to be more furniture than an instrument shocked
Where will all the grands go after these peole are gone?
And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...

For me the digitals don't get more appealing even though they get better and better. The things about the acoustic that draw me into it are the feel of the playing, the effort it takes to be able to get the sound I want and the little differences or imperfections that make the piano an individual and it's sound more living than a perfect digital sound.
I don't know if the young people today would care for this, more like the easier the better so I do think acoustics will become less and less common in households. Especially when the old uprights get dumped and the new good quality uprights are pretty expensive. Why buy a cheap acoustic that is low quality when you can get a really good digital for less...
Posted by: outo

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 03:07 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: SBP
I hope they don't.

Personally, I hope that acoustics will evolve away from the loud beasts they are today. That would sure make them more pleasant to play for long periods :P


This is an excellent point.

Why should all quality grands be more appropriate for the concert hall than home?


I agree 100%!

My dream is to own a fortepiano one day, because they have so much more appealing sound than the modern monsters...
Posted by: carey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 03:21 AM

Yes - you can purchase a digital for less than an acoustic - but a digital only lasts about 25% as long as an acoustic (at best).

If your power goes out - a digital will be completely useless.

At least you can play an acoustic by candlelight.

I imagine that acoustics will be very popular with future doomsday preppers. grin
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 03:31 AM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the huge percentage of pianists, including those on this thread who hate the sound of digitals/hybrids, would have difficulty telling the difference in a blind test.



Cher, it's not the sound of a digital I hate (though I'm not wild about it)-it's the feel. I keep one at my elderly parents' home to practice on when I'm down there. Yes, it has weighted keys but it still feels like some sort of toy compared to my not particularly grand acoustic.
Posted by: Hakki

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 04:12 AM

Do you remember the film A.I. Artificial Intelligence?

This is from IMDb:

"A highly advanced robotic boy longs to become "real" so that he can regain the love of his human mother."
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 04:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Hakki
Do you remember the film A.I. Artificial Intelligence?

This is from IMDb:

"A highly advanced robotic boy longs to become "real" so that he can regain the love of his human mother."


Didn't Disney do an animated film on the same point some decades earlier? wink
Posted by: wr

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 06:19 AM

Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...



Status and identity, I think.

I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.
Posted by: wr

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 06:35 AM

Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
There's only so much you can do with a pair of speakers. I don't see any way to cure this shortcoming; you need all of the heavy, earthen and organic material of a piano to replicate the full experience for your audience.


I think this is crucial - speakers simply are not the same kind of sound-producing vehicle as a piano. No matter how good they get, at least using the concepts currently in use, they just don't move the air in the same way as an acoustic piano does. It's physically impossible.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 07:35 AM

Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the huge percentage of pianists, including those on this thread who hate the sound of digitals/hybrids, would have difficulty telling the difference in a blind test.



Cher, it's not the sound of a digital I hate (though I'm not wild about it)-it's the feel. I keep one at my elderly parents' home to practice on when I'm down there. Yes, it has weighted keys but it still feels like some sort of toy compared to my not particularly grand acoustic.


This is no longer an issue with modern digital pianos.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 07:37 AM

Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
There's only so much you can do with a pair of speakers. I don't see any way to cure this shortcoming; you need all of the heavy, earthen and organic material of a piano to replicate the full experience for your audience.


I think this is crucial - speakers simply are not the same kind of sound-producing vehicle as a piano. No matter how good they get, at least using the concepts currently in use, they just don't move the air in the same way as an acoustic piano does. It's physically impossible.


Human hearing is only so good. It's theoretically possible to have a speaker system good enough that the ears will be deceived.

Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 07:40 AM

Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...



What!?
I think they'e beautiful.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 09:38 AM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...



What!?
I think they'e beautiful.
Of course. They're incredibly beautiful which is one reason, and a perfectly valid one IMO, that some only get them as furniture.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 09:44 AM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
There's only so much you can do with a pair of speakers. I don't see any way to cure this shortcoming; you need all of the heavy, earthen and organic material of a piano to replicate the full experience for your audience.


I think this is crucial - speakers simply are not the same kind of sound-producing vehicle as a piano. No matter how good they get, at least using the concepts currently in use, they just don't move the air in the same way as an acoustic piano does. It's physically impossible.


Human hearing is only so good. It's theoretically impossible to have a speaker system good enough that the ears will be deceived.
I think you meant "possible".

I don't know if it's possible, but I'd assume based on how fast technology is advancing that any problems/shortcomings in this area using current methods will eventually be worked out.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 09:47 AM

Haha yes sorry I meant possible. I didn't mean necessarily possible with todays technology, but it is within the realms of possibility.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 09:49 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: SBP
I hope they don't.

Personally, I hope that acoustics will evolve away from the loud beasts they are today. That would sure make them more pleasant to play for long periods :P


This is an excellent point.

Why should all quality grands be more appropriate for the concert hall than home?
If everyone agreed with you, no one would be buying those pianos for their home. I have a Mason Hamlin BB in a tiny living room and it is not too loud. I do realize that sometimes pianos can be too loud for their spaces, but it is certainly not always the case.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 11:01 AM

1) No digital piano can ever recreate the same presence of acoustic grands.

2) Machine-made electric grands will all be 100% identical to each other. You can't even say this about machine made grand pianos, which leads me to my third point.

3) People love the uniqueness of organic instruments. Every Steinway is different in tone, touch, character, everything. This is hugely important.



Instruments have been made organically for thousands of years; I don't think this will ever change. I just think raw materials will always beat synthetic ones when it comes to music. Sure pop and some e-music (electronic music) genres do everything with computers and sampling, but I don't believe that this will ever dominate organic instruments.
Posted by: carey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 11:18 AM

Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...

And a small box-like plastic/particle board digital with a fake finish looks better than a beautiful acoustic grand in a formal living room??? grin
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 11:22 AM

Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...

And a small box-like plastic/particle board digital with a fake finish looks better than a beautiful acoustic grand in a formal living room??? grin


I think those AvantGrands are quite ugly. It looks like a 3 foot grand piano. I believe if you look up 'ugly' in Websters you will find a picture of one.


And I agree with Mark and Debrucey. Real grand pianos are gorgeous. When I walk into a piano store my eyes light up like a kid in a candy shop.
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 11:22 AM

Originally Posted By: JoelW
1) No digital piano can ever recreate the same presence of acoustic grands.


Never is a long time. I remember when similar comments about sound and feel have been made that have been surpassed.

Originally Posted By: JoelW

2) Machine-made electric grands will all be 100% identical to each other. You can't even say this about machine made grand pianos, which leads me to my third point.


There are wide variety of parameters on some digital keyboards that go a long way toward personalizing the piano. They are also not the same in ways that are not as charming as an acoustic but at least prove they are not identical to each other.

Originally Posted By: JoelW

3) People love the uniqueness of organic instruments. Every Steinway is different in tone, touch, character, everything. This is hugely important.


People also love saving money. Digital pianos are often a fraction of the cost and never need tuning. (that $100 a pop around here).

Another thing people love is space. A digital piano takes much less of it than a grand piano.

Also, some of us who use the instrument to make money, find the ability to move it, invaluable.

I believe if it weren't for rich people that like the snob appeal of a grand piano as furniture, they would already be gone....maybe. smile
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 11:23 AM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...

What!?
I think they're beautiful.

++
I can't believe it took that long for anyone to start countering it.
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 11:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...

What!?
I think they're beautiful.

++
I can't believe it took that long for anyone to start countering it.


I found the comment to ridiculous to respond. wink
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 11:41 AM

Originally Posted By: JoelW
1) No digital piano can ever recreate the same presence of acoustic grands.

2) Machine-made electric grands will all be 100% identical to each other. You can't even say this about machine made grand pianos, which leads me to my third point.

3) People love the uniqueness of organic instruments. Every Steinway is different in tone, touch, character, everything. This is hugely important.
Part of the differences between Steinways is usually attributed to quality control/manufacturing inconsistencies although this has apparently improved significantly in recent years. Other makers of the highest category are generally more consistent in touch and tone although there are still differences that could make someone choose one piano of the same make and model over another.

Hybrids already have the possibility of being adjusted in terms of their touch like any acoustic piano and are not therefore all exactly the same. In terms of variety of tone, I think digitals/hybrids already have some possibility for tonal adjustmentts based on the wishes of the performer and can certainly imagine that the options in this area could increase dramatically as non acoustic instruments develop. I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.
Posted by: carey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 11:51 AM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.

True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses.
Posted by: LarryShone

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 11:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...

What!?
I think they're beautiful.

++
I can't believe it took that long for anyone to start countering it.


I found the comment to ridiculous to respond. wink

I am in shock! The thought of describing a grand piano as ugly..no I just cant picture it! :()
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 11:53 AM

Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.

True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses.


Well they won't go away.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 11:55 AM


Pianoloverus:

Quote:
Part of the differences between Steinways is usually attributed to quality control/manufacturing inconsistencies although this has apparently improved significantly in recent years. Other makers of the highest category are generally more consistent in touch and tone although there are still differences that could make someone choose one piano of the same make and model over another.

Hybrids already have the possibility of being adjusted in terms of their touch like any acoustic piano and are not therefore all exactly the same. In terms of variety of tone, I think digitals/hybrids already have some possibility for tonal adjustmentts based on the wishes of the performer and can certainly imagine that the options in this area could increase dramatically as non acoustic instruments develop. I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.




That's fair. But what about the actual presence? A 9' concert Steinway has godly presence. It's insane. I don't see how speakers on a little AvantGrand-type instrument could ever match the raw experience of a 9' resonating beast. With real grand pianos, the entire piano is the speaker. All of it vibrates, not just the soundboard. I just don't see electric pianos ever being able to capture that, and if they could, it seems like they'd be too big and too expensive to have the luxury of inexpensiveness and portability. It seems like they would just be building an electric 9'. And even then would it match the raw power and organic experience of the real 9' grand's presence? I'm just not convinced.

I think the problem is when we try to match an electric instrument to an organic instrument. When the goal is to make the fake one sound like the real one, the fake one with never be as good as the real one because it's always an imitation. This is why the piano did away with the harpsichord. It wasn't just an imitation, it was an improvement. Electric pianos serve a good purpose but I think their place in music needs to be acknowledged. They do what they do well but they won't ever be a 9' Steinway.

This is all my opinion! smile
Posted by: carey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 11:57 AM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.

True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses.


Well they won't go away.

Of course they won't wink
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 12:00 PM

Originally Posted By: JoelW
Quote:
Part of the differences between Steinways is usually attributed to quality control/manufacturing inconsistencies although this has apparently improved significantly in recent years. Other makers of the highest category are generally more consistent in touch and tone although there are still differences that could make someone choose one piano of the same make and model over another.

Hybrids already have the possibility of being adjusted in terms of their touch like any acoustic piano and are not therefore all exactly the same. In terms of variety of tone, I think digitals/hybrids already have some possibility for tonal adjustmentts based on the wishes of the performer and can certainly imagine that the options in this area could increase dramatically as non acoustic instruments develop. I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.




That's fair. But what about the actual presence? A 9' concert Steinway has godly presence. It's insane. I don't see how speakers on a little AvantGrand-type instrument could ever match the raw experience of a 9' resonating beast. With real grand pianos, the entire piano is the speaker. All of it vibrates, not just the soundboard. I just don't see electric pianos ever being able to capture that, and if they ever could, it seems like they'd be too big and too expensive to ever have the luxury of inexpensiveness and portability. It seems like they would just be building an electric 9'. And even then would it match the raw power and organic experience of the real 9' grand's presence? I'm just not convinced.

I think the problem is when we try to match an electric instrument to an organic instrument. When the goal is to make the fake one sound like the real one, the fake one with never be as good as the real one because it's always an imitation. This is why the piano did away with the harpsichord. It wasn't just an imitation, it was an improvement. Electric pianos serve a good purpose but I think their place in music needs to be acknowledged. They do what they do well but they won't ever be a 9' Steinway.

This is all my opinion! smile


They're not trying to sound like a 9 foot steinway, that would be ridiculous. Who has a 9 foot steinway in their study?
Posted by: carey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 12:00 PM

Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...



Status and identity, I think.

I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.



But, on the other hand, they were always prepared for a party !!
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 12:01 PM

I think a piano always brightens up a home. Even if someone doesn't play, its nice to have one. Whenever they have guests who are musicians they can have a bit of a singsong, and thats nice
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 12:02 PM

Originally Posted By: debrucey

They're not trying to sound like a 9 foot steinway, that would be ridiculous. Who has a 9 foot steinway in their study?


Well the 9' was just the most extreme example. I think the same applies to all of the well-sized grands, and even the smallest of grands. The organic, raw sound presence you get from any acoustic instrument can't be replicated as such by a non-acoustic instrument. IMO.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 12:04 PM

Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: debrucey

They're not trying to sound like a 9 foot steinway, that would be ridiculous. Who has a 9 foot steinway in their study?


Well the 9' was just the most extreme example. I think the same applies to all of the well-sized grands, and even the smallest of grands. The organic, raw sound presence you get from any acoustic instrument can't be replicated as such by a non-acoustic instrument. IMO.


Well, I have experienced it replicated, so yes it can.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 12:06 PM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: debrucey

They're not trying to sound like a 9 foot steinway, that would be ridiculous. Who has a 9 foot steinway in their study?


Well the 9' was just the most extreme example. I think the same applies to all of the well-sized grands, and even the smallest of grands. The organic, raw sound presence you get from any acoustic instrument can't be replicated as such by a non-acoustic instrument. IMO.


Well, I have experienced it replicated, so yes it can.


Really? If you were to be blindfolded and sat down at two pianos, one being the one you felt successfully replicated the organic presence of an acoustic, and the other being a 6' acoustic grand, you would NOT be able to tell which one was which? Haha c'mon man! "I have experienced it replicated" -- no you haven't! grin
Posted by: LarryShone

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 12:38 PM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
I think a piano always brightens up a home. Even if someone doesn't play, its nice to have one. Whenever they have guests who are musicians they can have a bit of a singsong, and thats nice

Agree! But I just want, no NEED a piano in my life, any piano!
Posted by: Hakki

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 01:15 PM

Mark, BTW, did you manage to follow the Poll so far?

How is it going? Relic or not?

Could you post a list of who said what.
Posted by: personne

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 01:33 PM

The cost of acoustic piano can well make acoustic piano relics smile
My colleague says she purchased an August Foster piano for her nieces 20 years ago for 1/3 this make and size cost now.
Digital pianos have not come far in terms of sound modeling, they have a lot of room for improvement, their software is still pretty primitive. As soon as software will be able to emulate piano resonances and tonal differences at the reasonable level, only few will still purchase a 'real piano' - and not because they cannot tell the difference, but due to the cost and convenience.
Now digitals compete with entry-level acoustics, as soon as they can compete with mid-price point, there will be not too many buyers left on the market for acoustic pianos as a few have budget for high-end grands. IMO.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 02:06 PM

Digital pianos have come extremely far in terms of sound modelling, and they can emulate piano resonances.
Posted by: outo

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 03:10 PM

Originally Posted By: LarryShone
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...

What!?
I think they're beautiful.

++
I can't believe it took that long for anyone to start countering it.


I found the comment to ridiculous to respond. wink

I am in shock! The thought of describing a grand piano as ugly..no I just cant picture it! :()


I'm sorry for shocking anyone...it has to be a matter of taste...I've just never liked the shape of a grand...it's somehow unbalanced... But I love to play and listen to them smile
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 04:04 PM

Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.

True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses.


Sample libraries are already vast and growing. By the time acoustic pianos have died, sampling them will no longer be necessary and people will be identifying more with the sample than the original. I imagine that a couple of centuries from now, a project will be undertaken to build a (then extinct) acoustic piano to marvel at how ingenious we neanderthals were.
Posted by: Mwm

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 04:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.

True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses.


Sample libraries are already vast and growing. By the time acoustic pianos have died, sampling them will no longer be necessary and people will be identifying more with the sample than the original. I imagine that a couple of centuries from now, a project will be undertaken to build a (then extinct) acoustic piano to marvel at how ingenious we neanderthals were.


The sad part of all this discussion is that, aside from acoustic pianos, we will be replicating our food and other naturally derived items. "They" are already growing hamburger in a petri dish. I suppose that one day we'll be able to simulate sex, because the real thing is ugly, or too expensive. I imagine that in a couple of centuries from now, a project will be undertaken to have real sex, and marvel at how ingenious we neanderthals were, that is if, unlike the Shakers, we are still around.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 06:34 PM

I think there are already some concert pianists around who would say that a high-end digital is preferable to a vertical - any vertical, according to one well-known pianist I spoke to, after a masterclass that I attended this afternoon.

One of the biggest drawbacks with most digitals are their consistent sound - too consistent. If you strike a chord with the same force several times without pedal you can easily get exactly the same sound, which is next to impossible on an acoustic, due to the 'Butterfly Effect'. That's because you're triggering the same velocity level on the DP, which any good pianist can do. The sheer consistency really does become boring in a way acoustics can never be, and contributes to the sterile effect when you try to play expressively, especially in slow music. And slow sustained music is also where sampled DPs show up their flaws: the decay sounds artificial, because it's looped and stretched: no vibrating string decays like that. (In rapidly flowing music like, say, Chopin's Op.10/2, sampled DPs can sound very convincing).

And that's where modeling makes all the difference, which I believe is why it will be the future of digital pianos - if only all the big DP manufacturers get in on the act, to spur each other on. Another advantage of modeling is that it's easy to tweak so many parameters like level of sustain, tone color, various resonances, pedal effects etc - because the sounds are generated from scratch, not already pre-recorded: there's only so much you can do to pre-recorded piano sounds before they become unacceptably synthetic-sounding.

BTW, anyone who isn't familiar with looping and stretching on DP sounds might want to drop in on the Digital Pianos forum and look at the long-standing 'DPBSD Project' thread (DP bullsh*t detector - you get the idea grin) where 'dewster' does tests on the sound samples from several DPs........
Posted by: ShiroKuro

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 06:49 PM

Yeah, I have gotten a lot of good info at the DP forum. Also, if anyone in this thread has only ever played DPs in the class of Yamaha's Arius and the like, try to play an Avant Grand if you have the chance, it's pretty amazing! No headphones, no recordings, you have to play it yourself to understand what they've done.

That said, I will always prefer organic, go-out-of-tune-when-it-rains pianos!
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 07:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Mwm
[...]I suppose that one day we'll be able to simulate sex, because the real thing is ugly, or too expensive. [...]


"Real [sex] is ... too expensive..."? Really? I guess I'd better not ask ....
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: Mwm
[...]I suppose that one day we'll be able to simulate sex, because the real thing is ugly, or too expensive. [...]


"Real [sex] is ... too expensive..."? Really? I guess I'd better not ask ....


Reminds me of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, as well as a Hollywood movie starring Ewan McGregor (? The Island with Scarlett Johansson)......
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 08:32 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
I think there are already some concert pianists around who would say that a high-end digital is preferable to a vertical - any vertical, according to one well-known pianist I spoke to, after a masterclass that I attended this afternoon.


I'd probably agree with that.
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 10:16 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis

And that's where modeling makes all the difference, which I believe is why it will be the future of digital pianos -


I wouldn't give up on sampling yet. As the price of memory continually drops they will soon be able to make an affordable digital without loops and stretches.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 10:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Hakki
Mark, BTW, did you manage to follow the Poll so far?

How is it going? Relic or not?

Could you post a list of who said what.

I thought of doing a tally, but even if I had the stick-to-it-iveness to go through with it, which I'm not sure I would have grin I said the heck with it after going back over the first few posts because I wouldn't have known how to score some of them.

My impression is that it's pretty heavily in favor of "not relic," but with a substantial minority saying "relic."

Maybe something like (just making up these numbers) 55% not-relic, 30% relic, 15% "hey that's an interesting question, I can see it either way." smile

I'm not posting very much on the thread but reading everything and getting a lot out of it. What I'm getting:

-- There are stronger reasons for "never be a relic" than I'd thought.

-- I'm particularly glad to see so many fans and owners of DP's arguing "not relic."

-- Very interesting to see the analogies people are making and how they're being compared to the acoustic-vs.-digital-piano question, especially the harpsichord stuff.

-- Something I hadn't thought of before but what this thread has me thinking....I don't know if anybody said exactly this, but there've been a few posts hovering around it....
The DP has been mostly an attempt to mimic the acoustic piano. But, electronic keyboards can do a lot more than that. When I first became aware of the synthesizer, around when Moog first introduced his, I don't think there was any notion that it would mimic the piano; it was a new thing of its own, with new and unique possibilities of its own. The idea wasn't to try to be a piano, but to be all that it could be, which arguably was much more than a piano. (And of course we could say also less, but the "more" is still true.)

Moog didn't invent the synthesizer. What he did was add a piano-type keyboard to it, which made it easier to play and more accessible for more people, and which (I think) led to DP's. The whole tenor of the posts on this thread has me wondering if maybe the future of "DP's" -- DP's per se -- is NOTHING, because electronic keyboards will forget about trying to mimic a piano since it is unnecessarily limiting on what the electronic keyboard can do, and it'll go back to being a syntesizer, only this time it'll be made for the mass market.

Aren't you glad you asked.... smile
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Mwm
....I suppose that one day we'll be able to simulate sex....

Welcome to 2173.... ha

Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/16/13 11:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
because electronic keyboards will forget about trying to mimic a piano because it is unnecessarily limiting on what the electronic keyboard can do, and it's go back to being a syntesizer, only this time it'll be made for the mass market.


Many if not most DP's mimic multiple instruments. The one that I use for gigs is a full-blown synthesizer that mimics nearly everything.
Posted by: Ferdinand

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/17/13 01:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Damon
... I believe if it weren't for rich people that like the snob appeal of a grand piano as furniture, they would already be gone....maybe. smile


At first I was aghast that anyone would write such a thing on this forum.

On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.

So, when the piano becomes a relic, there will be no more piano recitals. Or people are going to travel and pay money to hear some virtuoso evoke the recorded sounds of an obsolete instrument?
Count me out.
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/17/13 01:57 AM

I will be obsolete long, long before the acoustic piano will be. Some suggest I am already smile

Cheers!
Posted by: btb

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/17/13 02:45 AM

I had to remind myself what the heck an “acoustic piano” was ... (in the broad light of day) and looked up Wikipedia ... to discover that my Grotrian Steinweg (what a treasure) apparently is one of same ...
being classified as “upright” by the blokes who know all about it.

Quite agree with BruceD who thinks that he will be long since gone before acoustic pianos bite the dust ... and I'm older than him but not dead yet.

Still smelling the rose ... regards btb
Posted by: outo

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/17/13 03:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Ferdinand
Originally Posted By: Damon
... I believe if it weren't for rich people that like the snob appeal of a grand piano as furniture, they would already be gone....maybe. smile


At first I was aghast that anyone would write such a thing on this forum.

On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.



I had the idea that people buy grand pianos to play them and are willing to pay for quality work, sound and touch...this is what I am looking for and I am willing to pay much more than what I could actually afford for it.

Yet the piano dealer told me that a large proportion of his clients are more interested in how the piano looks and disklaviers are getting more popular... They also want a piano that is a known brand (which around here means Yamaha or Steinway if there's a lot to spend), even if they could have good quality with less money.

I guess people who have money but are not serious about piano playing are a good thing, if they keep the acoustic piano industry alive as a whole, maybe giving more options to those of us who really want an instrument instead of furniture.

EDIT:
Some of you probably don't know how lucky you are...the market for quality used grands around here is almost non-existent...I would actually prefer an older instrument, but they are really difficult to find. The piano dealer had one small Kawai and one (white) Yamaha when I went there. Not much private market either.
Posted by: btb

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/17/13 03:31 AM

The Finnish chappie (who obviously values a quality piano) might like to know that age has little to do with good sound ... as long as the piano has been played frequently over it’s lifetime ...
My Grotrian Steinweg piano was built in 1912 in Germany ... and after being reconditioned recently is sound as a bell.

It is always wise to use an expert in the purchase of a piano.
Posted by: Hakki

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/17/13 05:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C


Aren't you glad you asked.... smile


Sure.

Thanks for the detailed analysis.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/17/13 03:29 PM

Originally Posted By: outo
....Some of you probably don't know how lucky you are...the market for quality used grands around here is almost non-existent...I would actually prefer an older instrument, but they are really difficult to find....

I don't know if we are. In my experience they're hard to find anywhere, if we're talking about one that's well-maintained and in good shape and (if we're picky) that we really like. I prefer them too, but only once in my several piano shoppings did I find one that was suitable.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 01:26 AM

Originally Posted By: outo
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: SBP
I hope they don't.

Personally, I hope that acoustics will evolve away from the loud beasts they are today. That would sure make them more pleasant to play for long periods :P


This is an excellent point.

Why should all quality grands be more appropriate for the concert hall than home?


I agree 100%!

My dream is to own a fortepiano one day, because they have so much more appealing sound than the modern monsters...


A fortepiano or a chamber music inclined grand piano without the MODERN, SPACE AGE, FILL THE D**N AUDITORIUM SHOUTING TENDENCIES would be a welcome addition indeed.

Recently attended a three hour Haydn recital of Ronald Brautigam on a fortepiano and it was already plenty loud enough for the mid-sized Muziektheater aan het IJ...and this instrument would have been much preferable to listen to in my living room than my Kawai grand...(although 3 hours of Haydn sonates is enough on any instrument).
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 05:07 AM

Ideally, one should own a fortepiano for Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert; and Pleyel and Erard grands for Chopin and early Liszt. That would spare our ears from the excess loudness of modern grands which should be reserved for later Liszt, Brahms and beyond....
Posted by: wr

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 06:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Ferdinand


So, when the piano becomes a relic, there will be no more piano recitals. Or people are going to travel and pay money to hear some virtuoso evoke the recorded sounds of an obsolete instrument?


I think the few people who will be interested in the old classical music for piano a few centuries from now (assuming for the sake of argument that there are any people left) will just listen to the old recordings and be satisfied with that. Sure, there may possibly be a few specialists who still play, and a few builders who make and repair instruments.

At present, all signs seem to point to people in the future relying exclusively on electronics for their sounds. And because of that, the interest in trying to create fake pianos via electronics will die out, because it's inherently pretty silly. It's silly in the same way that trying to make plastic look like wood is silly. Or trying to make movies look like stage dramas is silly. Or trying to make tofu pass as a hamburger is silly. It's all about being bogus, and while such things may serve a transitional purpose, even for a few generations, they typically do not survive.

But you never know...things always seem to take weirdly unpredictable turns.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 07:00 AM

The writing is already on the wall - the vast majority of people now are passive 'participants' (recipients) in music - they just listen to music on their iPods or computers, and can't play any instrument or sing.

Or they pride themselves in 'creating' and mixing playlists and call it a 'performance'. Anything that requires long effort over many years - learning classical piano for instance - is not worth the hassle. It's the age of instant gratification, reality TV shows, etc.

Just get a keyboard, press a button for the built-in rhythms and automatic chords, play a one-finger tune and you've got everything, with minimal effort.....

An acoustic piano doesn't allow you to do that. How much longer will it survive? If it hadn't been for East Asians taking up playing the piano in their millions, will there still be an acoustic piano industry?
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 08:36 AM

As someone who has played and used digital pianos professionally ever since the early Kurtzweil (still a great piano sound!) in 1988 (actually far earlier with the first Emu sampler) up until the latest Roland V-piano and Nord's (and the ubiquitous collection of software library's, I can say, with utmost surety, that in no way will digital ever catch up with acoustic!

Digitals are great for practice at home late at night, or other situations where neighbourly concerns are paramount. They are great when played in a heavier (and there's nothing wrong with the gravity here in Sweden) orchestral situation; fusion, rock, blues, etc. Even playing classical chamber music in venues that don't have a piano a digital can suffice (I use a Roland Fp-7; ok sound, ok built-in speakers).

But no way will a heap of bytes put into plastic ever compete with a living breathing amalgamation of metal, bronze, wood, (some plastic) built with love and literally centuries of craftsmanship.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 08:51 AM

Originally Posted By: outo
On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.
You sound prejudiced against rich people.

Originally Posted By: outo
I had the idea that people buy grand pianos to play them and are willing to pay for quality work, sound and touch...this is what I am looking for and I am willing to pay much more than what I could actually afford for it.

Yet the piano dealer told me that a large proportion of his clients are more interested in how the piano looks...
There is nothing wrong in any way about buying a piano purely for its looks or purely for furniture. Your motives for buying a piano are not superior to those who buy it for furniture although you seem to think they are.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 02:20 PM

Originally Posted By: chrisbell


...... a living breathing amalgamation of metal, bronze, wood, (some plastic) built with love and literally centuries of craftsmanship.


Er....are you sure about all that? wink (Maybe for some pianos and some brands....)
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 02:31 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
...... a living breathing amalgamation of metal, bronze, wood, (some plastic) built with love and literally centuries of craftsmanship.

Er....are you sure about all that? wink (Maybe for some pianos and some brands....)

OK, OK! A dead, airless amalgamation of urethane, polyester, velcro, built with pay-by-the-hour and decades of automation and cybernation. What's the difference..... grin

But seriously folks.... ha love your answer, Chrisbell!! thumb
Posted by: outo

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: outo
On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.
You sound prejudiced against rich people.

Originally Posted By: outo
I had the idea that people buy grand pianos to play them and are willing to pay for quality work, sound and touch...this is what I am looking for and I am willing to pay much more than what I could actually afford for it.

Yet the piano dealer told me that a large proportion of his clients are more interested in how the piano looks...
There is nothing wrong in any way about buying a piano purely for its looks or purely for furniture. Your motives for buying a piano are not superior to those who buy it for furniture although you seem to think they are.


First of all, I never wrote your first quote. Secondly I was merely surprised about the motives of some people buying musical instruments that are costly and take a lot of space. I did not make any value judgement about their motives, just revealed my own. Personally I would rather buy some art to look at...
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 06:26 PM

Originally Posted By: outo
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: outo
On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.
You sound prejudiced against rich people.

Originally Posted By: outo
I had the idea that people buy grand pianos to play them and are willing to pay for quality work, sound and touch...this is what I am looking for and I am willing to pay much more than what I could actually afford for it.

Yet the piano dealer told me that a large proportion of his clients are more interested in how the piano looks...
There is nothing wrong in any way about buying a piano purely for its looks or purely for furniture. Your motives for buying a piano are not superior to those who buy it for furniture although you seem to think they are.


First of all, I never wrote your first quote. Secondly I was merely surprised about the motives of some people buying musical instruments that are costly and take a lot of space. I did not make any value judgement about their motives, just revealed my own. Personally I would rather buy some art to look at...
Sorry for my confusion. I mistakenly thought you had written part of the post you quoted.

I have seen too often people complaining about other people's motives for buying a piano, that some... especially "rich" people only buy them as furniture, that these people are somehow undeserving of a piano or that it's terrible that they buy them for the wrong reasons while some serious musicians can't afford a nice grand.

But you are not guilty!
Posted by: outo

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 06:36 PM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Sorry for my confusion. I mistakenly thought you had written part of the post you quoted.

I have seen too often people complaining about other people's motives for buying a piano, that some... especially "rich" people only buy them as furniture, that these people are somehow undeserving of a piano or that it's terrible that they buy them for the wrong reasons while some serious musicians can't afford a nice grand.

But you are not guilty!


No problem...I may be a lot of (bad) things, but I am not generally pre...ous (cannot even spell the word) grin
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 06:37 PM

Originally Posted By: wr
I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 06:48 PM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: wr
I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Interesting thought.

So when a person buys a bushel of rice to dump it into a ditch, this is the same as someone buying a bushel of rice and distributing it to the poor and hungry. All purchase motives are equal.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 06:59 PM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: wr
I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Interesting thought.

So when a person buys a bushel of rice to dump it into a ditch, this is the same as someone buying a bushel of rice and distributing it to the poor and hungry. All purchase motives are equal.
I was speaking about pianos and not rice. When I said that anyone's reason for buying a piano being just as good as anyone else's, I was thinking of at least reasonable motives.

But I do strongly object to those who complain about someone buying a piano only as furniture or for status or because they think it's nice to have, etc..

Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


What if someone purchased a piano to be used in a crime?
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 07:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


What if someone purchased a piano to be used in a crime?
As long as it wasn't a tier 1 piano.
Posted by: Cinnamonbear

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 08:14 PM

Originally Posted By: chrisbell
[...] But no way will a heap of bytes put into plastic ever compete with a living breathing amalgamation of metal, bronze, wood, (some plastic) built with love and literally centuries of craftsmanship.


Ja. The way I like to say it is, "I am constantly amazed at the way wood, felt, steel and copper can bring such sound into the air as would plumb the depths of the human soul." Or reach into your chest and pull out your guts and crush them with unbearable sonic density... ...Or put wings on your heart and give you such breathtaking altitude... ...Or, something like that. With hide glue that goes "moo."

Another thing about acoustic pianos is durability and sheer numbers. In my neighborhood alone, you can throw a rock in any direction and hit a piano--mostly spinets and consoles. Still, of the houses on my side of the street, four in a row of five each have a piano, and one of them has three. *ahem* blush

Last week, I worked on a 1903 Schiller upright, a 1925 Conover grand, a 1952 Cable console, and a 1963 Cable spinet, all of them in reasonably good, practical working condition. And what chrisbell said about craftsmanship~~I can say in no uncertain terms that some of these old pianos are built like tanks and sound like angel choirs. They don't make 'em like they used to.

That said, I wonder if the question could be re-framed, "Will there ever be enough pianists to play all the pianos on the earth?"

--Andy
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 08:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear


Ja. The way I like to say it is, "I am constantly amazed at the way wood, felt, steel and copper can bring such sound into the air as would plumb the depths of the human soul." Or reach into your chest and pull out your guts and crush them with unbearable sonic density... ...Or put wings on your heart and give you such breathtaking altitude... ...Or, something like that. With hide glue that goes "


I can honestly say that I never felt anything much for the console-sized vertical on which I spent the first four years learning the piano. It had (and still has, last time I checked) a shrill, tinny, shallow tone which hardly varied from p (pp wasn't possible) to ff (when it was unbearably strident), and its action was far too shallow, unresponsive and light, which made playing the pianos during the ABRSM grade exams very difficult to adapt to. Fortunately, I then went off to boarding school where the practice rooms had far superior uprights, where I made up for lost time....

My digital is a superior instrument in every way (in key action, tone, dynamic range, responsiveness to touch etc) to that vertical - which resides still in my parents' home, now unloved and unplayed by anyone...... grin
Posted by: Old Man

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 09:05 PM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.

Spoken like a true market capitalist, and I agree 100%. Why anyone buys anything may be a mystery to me, but it's none of my damned business. And I would think that piano purchases, whatever the motivation, that benefit manufacturers would be welcomed by those of you who truly are capable of producing beautiful music. Whether those who can afford it view a 9-foot Steinway as a piece of furniture, a planter, or a urinal means nothing to me. Just keep writing those checks. laugh
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 09:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Old Man
....Whether those who can afford it view a 9-foot Steinway as a.... urinal means nothing to me..... laugh

Old Man, you're pulling our, uh, leg. ha
Posted by: Cinnamonbear

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 09:11 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear


Ja. The way I like to say it is, "I am constantly amazed at the way wood, felt, steel and copper can bring such sound into the air as would plumb the depths of the human soul." Or reach into your chest and pull out your guts and crush them with unbearable sonic density... ...Or put wings on your heart and give you such breathtaking altitude... ...Or, something like that. With hide glue that goes "


I can honestly say that I never felt anything much for the console-sized vertical on which I spent the first four years learning the piano. It had (and still has, last time I checked) a shrill, tinny, shallow tone which hardly varied from p (pp wasn't possible) to ff (when it was unbearably strident), and its action was far too shallow, unresponsive and light, which made playing the pianos during the ABRSM grade exams very difficult to adapt to. Fortunately, I then went off to boarding school where the practice rooms had far superior uprights, where I made up for lost time....

My digital is a superior instrument in every way (in key action, tone, dynamic range, responsiveness to touch etc) to that vertical - which resides still in my parents' home, now unloved and unplayed by anyone...... grin


I'll take it!!! grin
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 09:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear


I'll take it!!! grin


You'll change your mind within a minute of playing it, I guarantee you.

It still looks pristine, with nary a scratch, but many of the keys no longer sound, a few are stuck or very sticky, and all that's apart from the fact it's not been tuned and regulated for decades since I left home for greener pastures...

I remember that even when brand new, it was prone to sticking keys - quite randomly (probably because of its overly light action and sluggish key return): I actually had to manually lift the odd key back up in the middle of practising. It didn't improve in this regard after the technician's visits; it just sounded more in tune, that was all. Not knowing any better, I used to think that all pianos were like that...... cry

But I'm sure it looks good as furniture, and its top is low enough to be used as a mantelpiece for garden gnomes who prefer to be indoors wink .
Posted by: Cinnamonbear

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 10:23 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear


I'll take it!!! grin


You'll change your mind within a minute of playing it, I guarantee you.

It still looks pristine, with nary a scratch, but many of the keys no longer sound, a few are stuck or very sticky, and all that's apart from the fact it's not been tuned and regulated for decades since I left home for greener pastures...

I remember that even when brand new, it was prone to sticking keys - quite randomly (probably because of its overly light action and sluggish key return): I actually had to manually lift the odd key back up in the middle of practising. It didn't improve in this regard after the technician's visits; it just sounded more in tune, that was all. Not knowing any better, I used to think that all pianos were like that...... cry

But I'm sure it looks good as furniture, and its top is low enough to be used as a mantelpiece for garden gnomes who prefer to be indoors wink .


Ah, bennivis... My first reply to your initial message was that you had a lazy tech. Then, I edited that out to say, "I'll take it!" Now, I edit "lazy tech" back in. (Sorry bennevis's tech, if you're reading this.) O, what the simple key spacing tool might have done with a little twist to the front key pin... Or a little mashing of the bushing felt. Or, a little nudge of the balance rail pin with a well-placed screwdriver. Or a little sandpaper to the capstan end of the key if needed... And a quick regulating pass... Even short consoles can be opened up to hum and sing with the right tuning. I believe that a tech who knows the temperaments can fit a temperament and a stretch to each individual piano, no matter how humble, like a well tailored suit.

In any case, I commend you for your perseverance. I also believe that each pianist has a piano that fits. Personally, I prefer a light action for all that Handel and Bach and Clementi I like to play. No ff needed, either. For someone who plays the rhapsodies, though, a big, solid piano is definitely in order.

Go ahead and ship your childhood piano to me, and I'll fix it up and find it a good home. grin
Posted by: ChopinAddict

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 10:33 PM

Andy has already brought back to life many pianos. He can do it! smile
Click to reveal..
And then he can send it to me. laugh
Posted by: Cinnamonbear

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/18/13 10:47 PM

Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Andy has already brought back to life many pianos. He can do it! smile
Click to reveal..
And then he can send it to me. laugh


Thanks for the vote of confidence, CA! And, since shipping costs are not a factor in this discussion, I would gladly send it to you and charge it to bennevis! laugh
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/19/13 01:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.

Spoken like a true market capitalist, and I agree 100%. ... Just keep writing those checks. laugh


That was how it came across to me too: an implicit statement that there are no values in life other than the value of the almighty dollar.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/19/13 06:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Andy has already brought back to life many pianos. He can do it! smile
Click to reveal..
And then he can send it to me. laugh


Thanks for the vote of confidence, CA! And, since shipping costs are not a factor in this discussion, I would gladly send it to you and charge it to bennevis! laugh


I'm sure my mom won't mind the gnomes being evicted from their residence on the top of the piano (and the gnomes themselves won't mind, being inanimate objects, despite all appearances to the contrary), so that the latter can be shipped off to you. But I fear it wouldn't survive the journey across the pond......not to mention the cost of shipping is more than what the piano's worth grin.
Posted by: wr

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/19/13 06:32 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.

Spoken like a true market capitalist, and I agree 100%. ... Just keep writing those checks. laugh


That was how it came across to me too: an implicit statement that there are no values in life other than the value of the almighty dollar.


I guess I should appreciate the reminder of why I have a person with such an attitude on my ignore list, although I'd just as soon not have read the remark at all. Old Man appears to be heading in the direction of joining him and the rest who are on that list.

To me, it's a shame to waste an instrument for any reason, regardless of what I may think about why it was wasted. I am not going to go into what I think about the social malady known as conspicuous consumption and the people who practice it. Although the argument could be made that pianos can be used in that way (as in the example I gave), and therefore the topic is somehow relevant to PW, it's just not that interesting to me at the moment.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/19/13 07:21 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.

Spoken like a true market capitalist, and I agree 100%. ... Just keep writing those checks. laugh


That was how it came across to me too: an implicit statement that there are no values in life other than the value of the almighty dollar.
That's not what I said or meant at all. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/19/13 07:53 AM

I wish there were a compelling philosophical system that would forbid other people doing all the things I find distasteful in them. Unfortunately, I don't think such a system exists, and I conclude, rather reluctantly, that people are going to have to be allowed to set their own priorities for what they do with their time, energy, values, beliefs, opinions, and money, up to the point where their choices may inflict harm upon others or restrict the similar freedom of choice of others.

I hate that conclusion, but the alternatives have been tried, and they haven't worked all that well.
Posted by: Dara

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/19/13 08:21 AM

piano shall thrive
amazing invention
one of the wonders of human creation
Posted by: Old Man

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/19/13 03:36 PM

Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.

Spoken like a true market capitalist, and I agree 100%. ... Just keep writing those checks. laugh


That was how it came across to me too: an implicit statement that there are no values in life other than the value of the almighty dollar.


I guess I should appreciate the reminder of why I have a person with such an attitude on my ignore list, although I'd just as soon not have read the remark at all. Old Man appears to be heading in the direction of joining him and the rest who are on that list.

To me, it's a shame to waste an instrument for any reason, regardless of what I may think about why it was wasted. I am not going to go into what I think about the social malady known as conspicuous consumption and the people who practice it. Although the argument could be made that pianos can be used in that way (as in the example I gave), and therefore the topic is somehow relevant to PW, it's just not that interesting to me at the moment.

wr, you're preaching to the choir. I doubt that anyone in this forum would want to "waste" a piano, or any other instrument. We are all lovers of music, so I'm sure that most of us find the idea of buying a piano as a status symbol or a piece of furniture to be repugnant. But it happens all the time.

I won't speak for Plover, and I apologize to him for dragging him into your line of fire. But speaking only for myself, I was simply saying that all economic decisions are based on myriad motivations, some rational, some irrational, and most in between. I view buying a car as a purchase that requires as much rationality as I can muster. I favor Toyota and Honda, because as a mechanically challenged person, reliability is paramount to me. But millions of others don't give a damn about reliability. They want cars that are stylish, have loads of amenities, or are made in America. During the 1970s and 80s, when American cars were greatly inferior to foreign models, I was roundly castigated as being "un-American" for not buying from one of the Big Three. So they thought I was unpatriotic, and I thought they were irrational. But that's the nature of economics. All's fair.

When it comes to pianos, yes, I understand the reverence that a beautiful instrument commands - or should command. But we can't control the motivations of others. And my point was that regardless of why people buy pianos, the fact that pianos continue to be purchased can only serve to benefit those of us who truly do love pianos. As long as there is sufficient demand for acoustic pianos, manufacturers will prosper, or at least tread water, and that will allow those of us who dream of owning one some day to perhaps realize that dream.

Feel free to put me on ignore. At least I hope I've clarified what I was trying to say.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/19/13 03:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Old Man
....Feel free to put me on ignore....

Very good job replying to such a post from him. I think some people don't realize enough that when so many people tick them off, they might need to look in the mirror a bit more. I think it can be found in the dictionary under "misanthrope."
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/19/13 04:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Old Man
I doubt that anyone in this forum would want to "waste" a piano, or any other instrument.
I'm glad you put waste in quotes because my whole point is that someone who buys a piano for reasons other than playing it isn't IMO wasting a piano. They're just as entitled to their reason to buy a piano as anyone else, and it's arrogant for someone to think their reason is the right or a better reason.

It's not as though there are too few pianos to go around to those willing to buy them. In fact, the opposite is true and so someone buying a piano for furniture doesn't prevent anyone else from buying a piano. And I think it's incredibly judgmental for someone to say that their reason to buy a piano is better than someone else's reason.

I do think it's a shame that more people can't afford pianos or can't afford really terrific pianos, but that is not the same as begrudging someone for buying a piano for reasons other than playing it.

Posted by: Scott Hamlin

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/19/13 04:25 PM

Quote:

That said, I wonder if the question could be re-framed, "Will there ever be enough pianists to play all the pianos on the earth?"

--Andy


I was just thinking that as well...
Posted by: Old Man

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/19/13 04:36 PM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
... my whole point is that someone who buys a piano for reasons other than playing it isn't IMO wasting a piano. They're just as entitled to their reason to buy a piano as anyone else, and it's arrogant for someone to think their reason is the right or a better reason.

Agreed. I can just imagine a Steinway dealer vetting each of his customers, interrogating them about their "true" intentions, then making them swear an oath to faithfully love, cherish, protect, maintain, and play their new piano every day, til death do they part.

I think the average dealer thinks: I have piano. You have money. Let's trade. Thank you very much. grin
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/19/13 04:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
... my whole point is that someone who buys a piano for reasons other than playing it isn't IMO wasting a piano. They're just as entitled to their reason to buy a piano as anyone else, and it's arrogant for someone to think their reason is the right or a better reason.

Agreed. I can just imagine a Steinway dealer vetting each of his customers, interrogating them about their "true" intentions, then making them swear an oath to faithfully love, cherish, protect, maintain, and play their new piano every day, til death do they part.

I think the average dealer thinks: I have piano. You have money. Let's trade. Thank you very much. grin


All the punter has to do is to make the dealer an offer he cannot refuse...... wink
Posted by: Old Man

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/19/13 07:39 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis

All the punter has to do is to make the dealer an offer he cannot refuse...... wink

A fellow Godfather aficionado possibly?? thumb
Posted by: Ferdinand

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/19/13 08:36 PM


Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: outo
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: outo
On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.
You sound prejudiced against rich people.

Originally Posted By: outo
I had the idea that people buy grand pianos to play them and are willing to pay for quality work, sound and touch...this is what I am looking for and I am willing to pay much more than what I could actually afford for it.

Yet the piano dealer told me that a large proportion of his clients are more interested in how the piano looks...
There is nothing wrong in any way about buying a piano purely for its looks or purely for furniture. Your motives for buying a piano are not superior to those who buy it for furniture although you seem to think they are.


First of all, I never wrote your first quote. Secondly I was merely surprised about the motives of some people buying musical instruments that are costly and take a lot of space. I did not make any value judgement about their motives, just revealed my own. Personally I would rather buy some art to look at...
Sorry for my confusion. I mistakenly thought you had written part of the post you quoted.

I have seen too often people complaining about other people's motives for buying a piano, that some... especially "rich" people only buy them as furniture, that these people are somehow undeserving of a piano or that it's terrible that they buy them for the wrong reasons while some serious musicians can't afford a nice grand.

But you are not guilty!

I wrote the passage above that was misattributed to Outo. I am not prejudiced. I should have chosen the words more carefully. I apologize if it offended anyone.

My technician and I were talking today about various fine pianos he knows of in this area. He mentioned several that were bought for other reasons than to be played by the owners. Some of these have been badly neglected and have deteriorated.

I have no quarrel with people buying pianos that they won't play. But it's difficult for me not to think of a fine hand-crafted piano as a living thing. I wish owners had a sense of responsibility toward their instruments and toward the workers who put their soul into the making of them.
Posted by: Pogorelich.

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/20/13 11:38 AM

Oh, it just warms my heart that I can't and won't be able to (for some years) afford a piano, let alone a STEINWAY of all things, and there are apparently people who buy Steinways for nothing more than furniture in their castles?????

What a wonderful world.

(I understand people can own whatever they want for whatever reasons they want - I wonder if anybody bought an original Picasso just so they can use it as a tray? - but you can't stop me from feeling a tiny bit resentful and wish that I can too own a piano one day)
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/20/13 12:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
I wonder if anybody bought an original Picasso just so they can use it as a tray?


That was the quote of the day!
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/20/13 12:55 PM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
I wonder if anybody bought an original Picasso just so they can use it as a tray?

That was the quote of the day!

....if not more. grin
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/20/13 01:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
I wonder if anybody bought an original Picasso just so they can use it as a tray? - but you can't stop me from feeling a tiny bit resentful and wish that I can too own a piano one day)


Not a fair comparison since each Picasso truly is one of a kind. I would, however, love to do just that!
Posted by: Pogorelich.

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/20/13 01:55 PM

Each Steinway is also one of a kind wink no piano is identical
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/20/13 01:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Not a fair comparison since each Picasso truly is one of a kind. I would, however, love to do just that!

You do realize that many people think likewise of pianos?

I sure do. Look: Even leaving aside issues of varying workmanship, even when the workers are only machines ha .....no two pieces of wood are identical.

The fact of every piano being unique (anyway I'm calling it a fact) grin is why it astonishes me that so many people seem happy to buy pianos sight-unseen (and sound-unheard), or, for that matter, to buy a piano in need of rebuilding before seeing and hearing what it'll be after the rebuilding. The nature of a piano depends on its materials, workmanship, and history, and you never know exactly what it is or what it'll be until you see.

Edit: Thanks, Pogo, for saying the same thing in just one line. ha
Posted by: patH

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/20/13 02:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
Not a fair comparison since each Picasso truly is one of a kind. I would, however, love to do just that!

You do realize that many people think likewise of pianos?
The comparison between art and music instruments is a good one, for two reasons.

Reason one: Nobody who buys a Picasso is asked if they know anything about art, or can paint themselves. The only requirement for buying a Picasso is the proper amount of money. The same is true for pianos, even if some people might not like it.

Reason two: The original question in this thread was, if acoustic pianos will be obsolete one day. Well, we just have to look at the world of visual arts. We have photography (now digital), we have powerful software programs that can help the artist create interesting works; and we now even have 3D printers. And yet, oil painting has not become obsolete. People still do it, people still love it, people still buy oil paintings.

So I'm optimistic that acoustic instruments, especially pianos, are here to stay.
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/20/13 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
Not a fair comparison since each Picasso truly is one of a kind. I would, however, love to do just that!

You do realize that many people think likewise of pianos?


Many of those people DO use their pianos as trays. smile

I still find the comparison laughable.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/20/13 10:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Many of those people DO use their pianos as trays. smile

I cringe at that. Even when it's on coasters. ha

Nothing is allowed to be on my piano! (Except my metronome, hygrometer, pen, glasses, phone, a second hygrometer to make sure the first one is accurate, and sheet music.)
Posted by: currawong

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic - 03/20/13 11:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Nothing is allowed to be on my piano! (Except my metronome, hygrometer, pen, glasses, phone, a second hygrometer to make sure the first one is accurate, and sheet music.)
I don't even allow pens and phones. I don't have a hygrometer and I hardly use a metronome, so that leaves glasses, and sheet music.
Posted by: ChopinAddict

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 02:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
I wonder if anybody bought an original Picasso just so they can use it as a tray?

That was the quote of the day!

....if not more. grin

Well, hopefully not a mirror! ha
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 06:31 AM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Really? I suppose you think marrying for money is a valid as marrying for love. People do things for the wrong reasons all the time. The prime example is entering politics but I could fill a book.
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 07:18 AM

Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Really? I suppose you think marrying for money is a valid as marrying for love. People do things for the wrong reasons all the time. The prime example is entering politics but I could fill a book.


I think it is.
Posted by: Mwm

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 08:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
Many of those people DO use their pianos as trays. smile

I cringe at that. Even when it's on coasters. ha

Nothing is allowed to be on my piano! (Except my metronome, hygrometer, pen, glasses, phone, a second hygrometer to make sure the first one is accurate, and sheet music.)


I use my Digital Piano as a tray for my hygrometers, among other things.
Posted by: sandalholme

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 09:09 AM

A person's motivation for any action is based on a value judgement. Value judgements vary between people (and within people over time).

Similarly peoples' value judgement on other people's motivations .......
Posted by: Pogorelich.

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 11:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Really? I suppose you think marrying for money is a valid as marrying for love. People do things for the wrong reasons all the time. The prime example is entering politics but I could fill a book.


I think it is.


Oh boy. Please tell us you're kidding?

Or maybe that's right... and maybe that could be my ticket to being rich! Helll, I'm good looking - now just have to find a rich husband and I WILL own a Steinway!!!
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 12:03 PM

Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Really? I suppose you think marrying for money is a valid as marrying for love. People do things for the wrong reasons all the time. The prime example is entering politics but I could fill a book.
I'm not sure about the merits of different reasons for marrying, but I am sure about (my opinion) of the merits of buying a piano. I didn't say the merits for doing anything are the same. Certainly the merits of different reasons for going to war are not the same.

But buying a piano for furniture or prestige or as an expensive coffee table for photos does no harm. It doesn't prevent anyone else from buying a piano because there is no shortage of pianos.
Posted by: Pogorelich.

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 12:06 PM

It kills the soul of the piano, because that piano is never played. A piano is not a couch ...

poor piano.
Posted by: LarryShone

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 12:12 PM

I read a article from 2009 in BBC Music Magazine where Olli Mustonen had to choose a Steinway Grand from all the units on offer in the Steinway showroom. A layman might think one grand is like another, yet he chose one specific example!
Yet if they were DPs they would likely be all the same!
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 01:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Really? I suppose you think marrying for money is a valid as marrying for love.

I think it is.

Oh boy. Please tell us you're kidding?

I'm not.
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.

Or maybe that's right... and maybe that could be my ticket to being rich! Helll, I'm good looking - now just have to find a rich husband and I WILL own a Steinway!!!

You wouldn't be the first.
Posted by: Pogorelich.

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 01:37 PM

And would it be fair to anybody?

And I thought -I- had no morals haha
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 01:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
It kills the soul of the piano, because that piano is never played. A piano is not a couch ...

poor piano.
The soul of the piano?

Even if one agreed that pianos have souls, I think you're assuming what that would somehow imply they must be used as musical instruments.
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 03:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
And would it be fair to anybody?

And I thought -I- had no morals haha


And think about the number of cultures where arranged marriages - marriages arranged for the mutual benefit of the families concerned, not for that of the marrying couple - are the norm. Those marriages are arranged on the basis of social and financial standing as well as on religious compatibility.

Does one consider the "fairness" or the "morality" of such marriages. Yes, perhaps, but only if viewed from a North American perspective. It's hard for some of us to understand how fair and moral arranged marriages can be when we aren't raised in the social context where such are the norm.

Regards,
Posted by: Pogorelich.

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 03:51 PM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
It kills the soul of the piano, because that piano is never played. A piano is not a couch ...

poor piano.
The soul of the piano?

Even if one agreed that pianos have souls, I think you're assuming what that would somehow imply they must be used as musical instruments.


No, I'm sorry - they we're built to be used for firewood.
Posted by: patH

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 06:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
And would it be fair to anybody?

And I thought -I- had no morals haha
A better question IMO: Would it be unfair to anybody?
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 06:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
And would it be fair to anybody?

And I thought -I- had no morals haha


Is love fair to anybody?
Posted by: Pogorelich.

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 06:59 PM

Originally Posted By: patH
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
And would it be fair to anybody?

And I thought -I- had no morals haha
A better question IMO: Would it be unfair to anybody?


Yes....... To the person with the cash.

Damon - what kind of a question is that? You think it's fair for some broad to marry a rich guy while not giving a damn about him, possibly having affairs left and right - is that fair to the guy, really? Is that better than two people in love getting married?

I am a cynic too at times, but come on... Love is the most powerful thing in the world and a marriage is kind of cheapened if the main reason for getting hitched is money or whatever else...
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 07:11 PM

What Pogo said.
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 07:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
[...]Is that better than two people in love getting married?

[...] a marriage is kind of cheapened if the main reason for getting hitched is money or whatever else...


Said, obviously, by a young starry-eyed romantic from a decidedly North American point of view. Given that the American divorce rate is almost 50% (46% in 2012), how strong an argument is that for "marrying for love"?

Click to reveal..
Obviously didn't bother to read my comment traditional arranged marriages that are the social backbone of many societies.
Posted by: patH

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 07:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: patH
A better question IMO: Would it be unfair to anybody?


Yes....... To the person with the cash.

Not if they know what they're getting into.

In my opinion, if both parties are consenting to have a marriage based on material values (e.g. one party wants a trophy, the other party wants money), then I have no problem with them marrying.

However, I disagree with arranged marriages, if at least one spouse does not want to be married, and is unhappy in the marriage.

But a piano will not feel that. Although I'm not happy at the thought of a well-crafted piano just standing in a room without being played, I accept that a piano is not a person.
Posted by: Pogorelich.

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 08:03 PM

Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
[...]Is that better than two people in love getting married?

[...] a marriage is kind of cheapened if the main reason for getting hitched is money or whatever else...


Said, obviously, by a young starry-eyed romantic from a decidedly North American point of view. Given that the American divorce rate is almost 50% (46% in 2012), how strong an argument is that for "marrying for love"?

Click to reveal..
Obviously didn't bother to read my comment traditional arranged marriages that are the social backbone of many societies.


I am European.

OH! and why do you assume that the marriages based on "love" are the only ones to fall apart?
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: patH


But a piano will not feel that. Although I'm not happy at the thought of a well-crafted piano just standing in a room without being played, I accept that a piano is not a person.


Yes, let's not forget that. A piano (acoustic or otherwise) is just as happy gathering dust as getting pounded daily by a ham-fisted would-be virtuoso. Or being used as an over-sized tray, or as an objet d'art, to impress the snooty arty types.

Ideally, of course, a piano should have at least two purposes, just as all humans (not just of the fairer sex) should be able to multi-task. Life is too short to be single-tasking in today's frenetic age. So, my piano is used as a tray, to hold some of my voluminous volumes of music scores, stacked up high on either side of the music stand; it is getting pounded daily by a would-be ham-fisted virtuoso (me); and last but not least, it is also gathering dust (as I haven't dusted it since it arrived in my humble abode).
Posted by: ando

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 08:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
[...]Is that better than two people in love getting married?

[...] a marriage is kind of cheapened if the main reason for getting hitched is money or whatever else...


Said, obviously, by a young starry-eyed romantic from a decidedly North American point of view. Given that the American divorce rate is almost 50% (46% in 2012), how strong an argument is that for "marrying for love"?

I am European.

OH! and why do you assume that the marriages based on "love" are the only ones to fall apart?


Not to mention that those same cultures that arrange marriages generally won't allow marriages to fall apart. Marriage statistics in such a culture are practically irrelevant. These people are culturally forced to accept their lot in life.

I don't care if some cultures claim that arranged marriages have their virtues or higher success rates - I think it's a basic human right and responsibility to choose one's own spouse. People should be able to take responsibility to determine their own destiny (regardless of whether half of them end in divorce). Whether or not a marriage hangs together is not the only thing at stake in marriage. There is freedom, risk and discovery in choosing your own spouse - and so there should be. We shouldn't view marriage as something that is locked in and guaranteed just because you manage to get somebody to sign on a dotted line. The relationship must promote growth and happiness, and if it can't be made to deliver that, it should fall apart.

Some relationships aren't meant to last forever - doesn't mean they don't function in highly significant ways to a person's life. We are on this earth to develop every bit as much as we are to live in a stable domestic home life. Most people who divorce or remarry are just as happy with how their life has gone as those who rigidly stuck to the one person their whole life and resented many things about that life.

No amount of "cultural" talk has ever convinced me otherwise on arranged marriages. It's a regressive step for humanity. Something from the dark ages. Controlling behaviour, impeding freedom, promoting class-based societies. Not for me. I'd take 50% failure rate of marriages in a free society over 100% success rate marriages in an arranged marriage society. The former allows personal growth, the second holds people by rules.

Anyway, anyone like pianos? grin
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 11:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.

Damon - what kind of a question is that? You think it's fair for some broad to marry a rich guy while not giving a damn about him, possibly having affairs left and right - is that fair to the guy, really? Is that better than two people in love getting married?


As long as they are two consenting adults, I don't see that it's any worse. Love is usually a passing notion. More hormones than anything else.

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.

I am a cynic too at times, but come on... Love is the most powerful thing in the world and a marriage is kind of cheapened if the main reason for getting hitched is money or whatever else...


I see a lot of evidence that people want to marry for financial benefit. You can live with someone and "love" them without getting married. Just ask Goldie Hawn or Susan Sarandon.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/21/13 11:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Damon
....Love is usually a passing notion. More hormones than anything else.

Would you agree that maybe that's just one kind of love?
Posted by: Pogorelich.

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 12:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
....Love is usually a passing notion. More hormones than anything else.

Would you agree that maybe that's just one kind of love?


Yes... It's attraction. We all have it all the time. But the other kind of love.. Lasts for a long long time.
Posted by: argerichfan

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 12:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
....Love is usually a passing notion. More hormones than anything else.

Would you agree that maybe that's just one kind of love?


Yes... It's attraction. We all have it all the time. But the other kind of love.. Lasts for a long long time.

That can happen. I am hoping so.
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 12:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
....Love is usually a passing notion. More hormones than anything else.

Would you agree that maybe that's just one kind of love?


Sure, but I wouldn't marry for the other kinds.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 01:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
....Love is usually a passing notion. More hormones than anything else.

Would you agree that maybe that's just one kind of love?


Sure, but I wouldn't marry for the other kinds.


You would feel right at home in my city. Prostitution is legal by the act, by the minute, by the hour, by the day, you name it.

No marriage contract required to get a materially less well off partner to prostitute herself or himself in a longterm transactional relationship in exchange for money ...
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 01:14 AM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: wr
I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Interesting thought.

So when a person buys a bushel of rice to dump it into a ditch, this is the same as someone buying a bushel of rice and distributing it to the poor and hungry. All purchase motives are equal.
I was speaking about pianos and not rice. When I said that anyone's reason for buying a piano being just as good as anyone else's, I was thinking of at least reasonable motives.

But I do strongly object to those who complain about someone buying a piano only as furniture or for status or because they think it's nice to have, etc..



Who is the arbiter of what is reasonable? Pianoloverus, I presume?

Your strong objection to others being allowed to express their value judgments regarding the Steinway-as-furniture motives of piano purchasers is itself a value judgment which you wish to impose on others here...

Quite unreasonable, if you ask me.
Posted by: wr

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 06:10 AM

Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...



Status and identity, I think.

I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.



But, on the other hand, they were always prepared for a party !!

You mean by having it always at the ready to serve as a sideboard to set drinks on?

The piano was never played at parties (which occurred once per year, exactly). I don't know why - either she didn't invite anyone who played, or, if she did, they still didn't play it for some reason.

But then, AFAIK, she never had it tuned, either - who knows what it would have sounded like. It was a Steinway, if I remember my landlord's description of it correctly.
Posted by: wr

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 06:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: patH
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
And would it be fair to anybody?

And I thought -I- had no morals haha
A better question IMO: Would it be unfair to anybody?


Yes....... To the person with the cash.

Damon - what kind of a question is that? You think it's fair for some broad to marry a rich guy while not giving a damn about him, possibly having affairs left and right - is that fair to the guy, really? Is that better than two people in love getting married?

I am a cynic too at times, but come on... Love is the most powerful thing in the world and a marriage is kind of cheapened if the main reason for getting hitched is money or whatever else...


Where I live, there is a neighborhood magazine specifically catering to the wealthiest area of the city, and in it, the society column announcing engagements and marriages is called "Mergers and Acquisitions". Need I say more?
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 07:03 AM

Here in the UK, well-heeled young women go to débutant parties organized by their parents where the rich and the good of both sexes get together to socialise, swap phone numbers.....and eventually marry. That way, they get the partners of the same standing in society (whatever that is), and none of the wrong class......

Going back to arranged marriages, there are a lot more problems than just incompatible partners and love (or lack of it). There is a very significant genetic problem because these arranged marriages aim to keep wealth etc within the 'family', which means first cousins often marry each other, leading to a very high incidence of genetic defects like microcephaly in their offspring. This is unfortunately very common in countries - and cultures - where arranged marriages are commonplace.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 07:15 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: wr
I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Interesting thought.

So when a person buys a bushel of rice to dump it into a ditch, this is the same as someone buying a bushel of rice and distributing it to the poor and hungry. All purchase motives are equal.
I was speaking about pianos and not rice. When I said that anyone's reason for buying a piano being just as good as anyone else's, I was thinking of at least reasonable motives.

But I do strongly object to those who complain about someone buying a piano only as furniture or for status or because they think it's nice to have, etc..
Who is the arbiter of what is reasonable? Pianoloverus, I presume?
If you actually think using a piano to commit murder and using a piano as furniture are equally reasonable or equally unreasonable you are in a very tiny minority.

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Your strong objection to others being allowed to express their value judgments regarding the Steinway-as-furniture motives of piano purchasers is itself a value judgment which you wish to impose on others here...
I have no objection to others being allowed to express their value judgments and never said anything like that. I said I disagreed with those those judgements which is totally different.
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 07:25 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
....Love is usually a passing notion. More hormones than anything else.

Would you agree that maybe that's just one kind of love?


Sure, but I wouldn't marry for the other kinds.


You would feel right at home in my city. Prostitution is legal by the act, by the minute, by the hour, by the day, you name it.


That was quite a leap. The only other kinds of love that I recognize are the kind one has for their parents or children, children being the closest to unconditional love. The kind of love that would have me seek out a prostitute is the same that would have me seek a wife. In my later years now I prefer to be a hermit. Your city holds no attraction for me.
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 07:26 AM

Welcome to MarriageHome.com! (which actually is a site (up for sale) so don't click it! wink
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 08:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Damon
The kind of love that would have me seek out a prostitute is the same that would have me seek a wife.


Indeed. That was what I understood.

We seem to have very different ideas about the foundation upon which a healthy marriage should be built. I can understand why being a hermit might be preferable to such an arrangement.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 08:38 AM

You say now:
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I have no objection to others being allowed to express their value judgments and never said anything like that. I said I disagreed with those those judgements which is totally different.

While you said before:
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
But I do strongly object to those who complain about someone buying a piano only as furniture or for status or because they think it's nice to have, etc..



To strongly object to those who complain is not the same thing as strongly objecting to opinions held or values not shared.

We can't read your mind, we can only go on what you write here. And your words seem to be quite clear.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 09:11 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
You say now:
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I have no objection to others being allowed to express their value judgments and never said anything like that. I said I disagreed with those those judgements which is totally different.

While you said before:
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
But I do strongly object to those who complain about someone buying a piano only as furniture or for status or because they think it's nice to have, etc..
To strongly object to those who complain is not the same thing as strongly objecting to opinions held or values not shared. We can't read your mind, we can only go on what you write here. And your words seem to be quite clear.
I think my words were clear as I originally wrote it and they meant what I said in my last post. When you put part of what I said in boldface you conveniently didn't boldface the rest of the sentence which completed the thought. If one objects to those who complain about something specific, that would normally mean one objects to what they said and not simply to the act of complaining.


Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 12:10 PM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Damon
The kind of love that would have me seek out a prostitute is the same that would have me seek a wife.


Indeed. That was what I understood.

We seem to have very different ideas about the foundation upon which a healthy marriage should be built. I can understand why being a hermit might be preferable to such an arrangement.


I thought you might be leaning towards the idea of a "soul mate" which, in my book, puts you in unicorn-land. Companionship is perfectly legitimate but I don't equate that to love.
Posted by: Pogorelich.

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 12:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Damon
The kind of love that would have me seek out a prostitute is the same that would have me seek a wife.


Indeed. That was what I understood.

We seem to have very different ideas about the foundation upon which a healthy marriage should be built. I can understand why being a hermit might be preferable to such an arrangement.


I thought you might be leaning towards the idea of a "soul mate" which, in my book, puts you in unicorn-land. Companionship is perfectly legitimate but I don't equate that to love.


Just because you couldn't find it, or had it one day and lost it, doesn't mean it's not there. Obviously something bad has made you think this way, and I can only feel sorry for you.
Posted by: outo

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 01:19 PM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: wr
I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Interesting thought.

So when a person buys a bushel of rice to dump it into a ditch, this is the same as someone buying a bushel of rice and distributing it to the poor and hungry. All purchase motives are equal.
I was speaking about pianos and not rice. When I said that anyone's reason for buying a piano being just as good as anyone else's, I was thinking of at least reasonable motives.

But I do strongly object to those who complain about someone buying a piano only as furniture or for status or because they think it's nice to have, etc..
Who is the arbiter of what is reasonable? Pianoloverus, I presume?
If you actually think using a piano to commit murder and using a piano as furniture are equally reasonable or equally unreasonable you are in a very tiny minority.



Now this was interesting...how to commit murder with a piano...You cannot really hit anyone in the head with it...unless you are a giant...I guess if it's a grand you could ask someone to look at the strings very closely and then slam the lid...
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 01:31 PM

I sense a Hollywood blockbuster coming to a screen near you: Death by Piano......(which pays homage to Alfred Hitchcock).
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 01:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
I can only feel sorry for you.


Thanks, but it isn't necessary. I'm quite happy.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 01:34 PM

There already has been a film where someone was killed by having a piano lid smashed on their head a few times.
Posted by: patH

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 02:00 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
I sense a Hollywood blockbuster coming to a screen near you Death by Piano......(which pays homage to Alfred Hitchcock).

Or maybe to Tom and Jerry? wink
There was already a short T&J movie where Tom gets killed by a piano while chasing Jerry. Then he ascends to heaven, where he is told that he has one hour to make Jerry forgive him, otherwise he'll end up in heck. And at the end:
Click to reveal..
Tom wakes up, and it was all a dream.


EDIT: The board is replacing h e l l with h e c k? What the heck?
Posted by: Old Man

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 02:50 PM

Originally Posted By: patH

EDIT: The board is replacing h e l l with h e c k? What the heck?

ha I always get a chuckle when people discover this little curiosity (as I did a couple of months ago). I would assume the software should allow for a customized verboten list, but whoever maintains it must take particular offense to the 'h' word.

But if it's any consolation, you are free to use "damn" and "bullshit" with reckless abandon! laugh
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 03:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Old Man
....But if it's any consolation, you are free to use "damn" and "bullshit" with reckless abandon! laugh

OK -- dare we see what happens with "----"?

(There -- I just saw. And then deleted the word from what I had typed before posting this.) ha

What comes out:

[censored]
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 03:33 PM

Originally Posted By: patH
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I sense a Hollywood blockbuster coming to a screen near you Death by Piano......(which pays homage to Alfred Hitchcock).

Or maybe to Tom and Jerry? wink
There was already a short T&J movie where Tom gets killed by a piano while chasing Jerry. Then he ascends to heaven, where he is told that he has one hour to make Jerry forgive him, otherwise he'll end up in heck. And at the end:
Click to reveal..
Tom wakes up, and it was all a dream.





I think we should all get together to write a script for a new B-movie, using all the latest CGI technology, which might interest a Mr. Steven S. grin

My idea involves a new piano competition where competitors have to play on a brand new 110-key grand designed by the founder of the competition, who also composed a concerto that all finalists must play.

Competitors start disappearing mysteriously as they begin practicing on the amazing Böstéînfåzyám piano, trying desperately to master the intractable difficulties of the 90 minute concerto. Everyone thought they were getting cold feet, and pulling out one by one, but too embarrassed to let the organisers know they were flying off home.

Then people began noticing that the piano was 'developing' more and more keys, and its tone was getting more mellifluous as competitors disappeared off into the ether. One of the favored pianists put a hidden video camera to see what was happening during the practice sessions....... wink

....and saw, to her horror, that when the pianist played a wrong note, the piano lid suddenly expanded and curled out, and turned into a huge upper jaw to gobble up the hapless pianist, sucking him into its innards.........grin

Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 03:39 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
I think we should all get together to write a script for a new B-movie, using all the latest CGI technology, which might interest a Mr. Steven S.... grin

Great post, and excellent choice! ha

I think it could also work with Quentin Tarantino, or by exhuming Alfred Hitchcock....
Posted by: patH

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 04:19 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
I think we should all get together to write a script for a new B-movie, using all the latest CGI technology, which might interest a Mr. Steven S. grin

I can already imagine titles for this movie.

Pianormal Activity
The Last Concerto

Tagline: Some keys should never be used...
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 05:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I think we should all get together to write a script for a new B-movie, using all the latest CGI technology, which might interest a Mr. Steven S.... grin

Great post, and excellent choice! ha

I think it could also work with Quentin Tarantino, or by exhuming Alfred Hitchcock....


Hey, I'd watch it. I think it could actually work. Sort of a cyberage version of the Mephisto Waltz. (Alan Alda, not Liszt)
Posted by: outo

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/22/13 05:25 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: patH
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I sense a Hollywood blockbuster coming to a screen near you Death by Piano......(which pays homage to Alfred Hitchcock).

Or maybe to Tom and Jerry? wink
There was already a short T&J movie where Tom gets killed by a piano while chasing Jerry. Then he ascends to heaven, where he is told that he has one hour to make Jerry forgive him, otherwise he'll end up in heck. And at the end:
Click to reveal..
Tom wakes up, and it was all a dream.





I think we should all get together to write a script for a new B-movie, using all the latest CGI technology, which might interest a Mr. Steven S. grin

My idea involves a new piano competition where competitors have to play on a brand new 110-key grand designed by the founder of the competition, who also composed a concerto that all finalists must play.

Competitors start disappearing mysteriously as they begin practicing on the amazing Böstéînfåzyám piano, trying desperately to master the intractable difficulties of the 90 minute concerto. Everyone thought they were getting cold feet, and pulling out one by one, but too embarrassed to let the organisers know they were flying off home.

Then people began noticing that the piano was 'developing' more and more keys, and its tone was getting more mellifluous as competitors disappeared off into the ether. One of the favored pianists put a hidden video camera to see what was happening during the practice sessions....... wink

....and saw, to her horror, that when the pianist played a wrong note, the piano lid suddenly expanded and curled out, and turned into a huge upper jaw to gobble up the hapless pianist, sucking him into its innards.........grin



Can't wait, never could resist B-horror...
Posted by: wouter79

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/23/13 09:15 AM

Lemon Pledge +1. Speakers suck at reproducing piano sound. Maybe the speaker approach is flawed completely. But the elecronic sound boards are not really much better either. So my vote is 'no'

But I realize that many people don't hear the difference so 'democracy' may determine otherwise...
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 06:37 AM

Originally Posted By: wouter79

But I realize that many people don't hear the difference so 'democracy' may determine otherwise...


Not "democracy." Captitalism.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 08:32 AM

Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: wouter79

But I realize that many people don't hear the difference so 'democracy' may determine otherwise...


Not "democracy." Captitalism.


Captitalism sounds like the economy of the red light district...
Posted by: patH

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 08:44 AM

Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: wouter79

But I realize that many people don't hear the difference so 'democracy' may determine otherwise...


Not "democracy." Captitalism.

And capitalism says: As long as there are people willing to shell out good money for quality acoustic instruments, they (the acoustic instruments) won't die out.

The instruments that will possibly die out are the cheaply made acoustic instruments, with mediocre sound and not-so-great action. Because these instruments don't offer more value for their money than good digital pianos. But who knows; maybe people who buy pianos will somehow still like acoustic instruments.

That's why capitalism is good: It gives people a choice as to decide what will survive in the market.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 04:07 PM

Yes maybe that's right, if it's just market work yet then it is capitalism.

But government also plays a role. If it's decided that it's too expensive to *educate* the people that build, tune and maintain these pianos, then it's more a political choice?
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 04:13 PM

Originally Posted By: wouter79

But government also plays a role. If it's decided that it's too expensive to *educate* the people that build, tune and maintain these pianos, then it's more a political choice?


What government educates piano builders?
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: wouter79

But government also plays a role. If it's decided that it's too expensive to *educate* the people that build, tune and maintain these pianos, then it's more a political choice?


What government educates piano builders?


Or piano tuners?
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: BruceD
Said, obviously, by a young starry-eyed romantic from a decidedly North American point of view. Given that the American divorce rate is almost 50% (46% in 2012), how strong an argument is that for "marrying for love"?


First of all, Pogo never said "marry for infatuation". Get it right.

Secondly, I'm so sick of older people who condescend to young people for being young. That s*** is obnoxious.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 04:47 PM

Government pays the schools a lot. But only the official recognised institutions. And the government also judges the quality of the institutions and for accreditation of the diplomas. So I suppose they have quite some influence on WHAT is being teached.
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 04:52 PM

Originally Posted By: wouter79
Government pays the schools a lot. But only the official recognised institutions. And the government also judges the quality of the institutions and for accreditation of the diplomas. So I suppose they have quite some influence on WHAT is being teached.


Perhaps in general education but what government document or instruction can you produce that outlines and refines the process of building and tuning a piano? Can't a home schooled person become an expert piano builder or tuner without the assistance of government? Or is it this?

Posted by: -Frycek

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Said, obviously, by a young starry-eyed romantic from a decidedly North American point of view. Given that the American divorce rate is almost 50% (46% in 2012), how strong an argument is that for "marrying for love"?


First of all, Pogo never said "marry for infatuation". Get it right.

Secondly, I'm so sick of older people condescending towards young people for being young. That s*** is obnoxious.


Hey, I'm a decidedly older person. I'm on your side.

(More or less happliy married for 30 years. One of my favorite songs is "Hello Young Lovers" from the King and I. It pretty much says it all.)
Posted by: patH

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 05:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: wouter79
Government pays the schools a lot. But only the official recognised institutions. And the government also judges the quality of the institutions and for accreditation of the diplomas. So I suppose they have quite some influence on WHAT is being teached.


Perhaps in general education but what government document or instruction can you produce that outlines and refines the process of building and tuning a piano? Can't a home schooled person become an expert piano builder or tuner without the assistance of government? Or is it this?

I don't know the situation in America; but in Germany there are schools ("Berufsfachschulen") where instrument building is taught as a profession. The schools are usually public schools and supervised by the government.

Another way to become an instrument builder is in a company; starting as an apprentice and eventually becoming a graduate and a master.
I don't know much about the training system in companies; but I believe that government agencies supervise them. After all, diplomas should be comparable.
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 06:07 PM

Originally Posted By: patH
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: wouter79
Government pays the schools a lot. But only the official recognised institutions. And the government also judges the quality of the institutions and for accreditation of the diplomas. So I suppose they have quite some influence on WHAT is being teached.


Perhaps in general education but what government document or instruction can you produce that outlines and refines the process of building and tuning a piano? Can't a home schooled person become an expert piano builder or tuner without the assistance of government? Or is it this?

I don't know the situation in America; but in Germany there are schools ("Berufsfachschulen") where instrument building is taught as a profession. The schools are usually public schools and supervised by the government.

Another way to become an instrument builder is in a company; starting as an apprentice and eventually becoming a graduate and a master.
I don't know much about the training system in companies; but I believe that government agencies supervise them. After all, diplomas should be comparable.


No such thing exists in the US. (Big surprize, right?)
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 10:16 PM

Originally Posted By: JoelW

First of all, Pogo never said "marry for infatuation". Get it right.


I never said she did. Get it right, dude!
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 10:32 PM

Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: JoelW

First of all, Pogo never said "marry for infatuation". Get it right.


I never said she did. Get it right, dude!


That's what you seemed to imply.
Posted by: argerichfan

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 10:34 PM

Originally Posted By: -Frycek
One of my favorite songs is "Hello Young Lovers" from the King and I. It pretty much says it all.)

But maybe not so intense as We Kiss in the Shadow?

wink
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 10:51 PM

Originally Posted By: JoelW

Secondly, I'm so sick of older people condescending towards young people for being young. That s*** is obnoxious.


I'm sick of young people using adjectives in place of active verbs. laugh
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/24/13 11:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: JoelW

Secondly, I'm so sick of older people condescending towards young people for being young. That s*** is obnoxious.


I'm sick of young people using adjectives in place of active verbs. laugh


Fixed. (I think?) grin

--

EDIT: Damnit, someone help me out with this grammar.

"don't condescend to me" or "don't condescend me"

I don't even care about my previous post, I just want to know!
Posted by: ando

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 02:44 AM

Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: JoelW

Secondly, I'm so sick of older people condescending towards young people for being young. That s*** is obnoxious.


I'm sick of young people using adjectives in place of active verbs. laugh


Fixed. (I think?) grin

--

EDIT: Damnit, someone help me out with this grammar.

"don't condescend to me" or "don't condescend me"

I don't even care about my previous post, I just want to know!


Joel, there was actually nothing wrong with your sentence.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 03:29 AM

Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: JoelW

Secondly, I'm so sick of older people condescending towards young people for being young. That s*** is obnoxious.


I'm sick of young people using adjectives in place of active verbs. laugh


Fixed. (I think?) grin

--

EDIT: Damnit, someone help me out with this grammar.

"don't condescend to me" or "don't condescend me"

I don't even care about my previous post, I just want to know!


Joel, there was actually nothing wrong with your sentence.


I give up.
Posted by: wr

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 07:39 AM

Originally Posted By: patH
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: wouter79

But I realize that many people don't hear the difference so 'democracy' may determine otherwise...


Not "democracy." Captitalism.

And capitalism says: As long as there are people willing to shell out good money for quality acoustic instruments, they (the acoustic instruments) won't die out.

The instruments that will possibly die out are the cheaply made acoustic instruments, with mediocre sound and not-so-great action. Because these instruments don't offer more value for their money than good digital pianos. But who knows; maybe people who buy pianos will somehow still like acoustic instruments.

That's why capitalism is good: It gives people a choice as to decide what will survive in the market.


No, that is not "why capitalism is good" - it's merely an assertion of some beliefs you have about the marketplace and about people and about musical instruments. To me, it amounts to "why capitalism is bad", because there's a false relationship between demand, worth, and cost.

A flaw in the premise that immediately pops into mind is this: the people who may find the most value in an instrument (or whatever) and can get the most use out of it, may also be the least able to afford that item. It's quite possible for something that has worth to the culture as a whole to fail in the marketplace.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 08:39 AM

Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: patH
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: wouter79

But I realize that many people don't hear the difference so 'democracy' may determine otherwise...


Not "democracy." Captitalism.

And capitalism says: As long as there are people willing to shell out good money for quality acoustic instruments, they (the acoustic instruments) won't die out.

The instruments that will possibly die out are the cheaply made acoustic instruments, with mediocre sound and not-so-great action. Because these instruments don't offer more value for their money than good digital pianos. But who knows; maybe people who buy pianos will somehow still like acoustic instruments.

That's why capitalism is good: It gives people a choice as to decide what will survive in the market.


No, that is not "why capitalism is good" - it's merely an assertion of some beliefs you have about the marketplace and about people and about musical instruments. To me, it amounts to "why capitalism is bad", because there's a false relationship between demand, worth, and cost.

A flaw in the premise that immediately pops into mind is this: the people who may find the most value in an instrument (or whatever) and can get the most use out of it, may also be the least able to afford that item. It's quite possible for something that has worth to the culture as a whole to fail in the marketplace.



Unfortunately, the only objective, universal measure of "value" that we have is money. By that measure, the people who find the most value in instruments (or anything else) are the people willing to pay the most for them.

Beyond that, there are various private and subjective measures of "value" capable of yielding any sort of argumentative conclusion clearly implied by the premises with which one begins the argument.
Posted by: Pogorelich.

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 09:12 AM

Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: JoelW

First of all, Pogo never said "marry for infatuation". Get it right.


I never said she did. Get it right, dude!


... "dude"?
Posted by: the nosy ape

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 10:57 AM

Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: JoelW

Secondly, I'm so sick of older people condescending towards young people for being young. That s*** is obnoxious.


I'm sick of young people using adjectives in place of active verbs. laugh


Fixed. (I think?) grin

--

EDIT: Damnit, someone help me out with this grammar.

"don't condescend to me" or "don't condescend me"

I don't even care about my previous post, I just want to know!

Well, since you ask, "condescend" is a verb while "condescending" is an adjective. People can condescend, but they cannot condescending. People can, however, be condescending.
Posted by: ando

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 11:12 AM

Originally Posted By: the nosy ape
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: JoelW

Secondly, I'm so sick of older people condescending towards young people for being young. That s*** is obnoxious.


I'm sick of young people using adjectives in place of active verbs. laugh


Fixed. (I think?) grin

--

EDIT: Damnit, someone help me out with this grammar.

"don't condescend to me" or "don't condescend me"

I don't even care about my previous post, I just want to know!

Well, since you ask, "condescend" is a verb while "condescending" is an adjective. People can condescend, but they cannot condescending. People can, however, be condescending.


Not true. It is perfectly acceptable to use the verb as a present participle with an "ing" ending.

Example: I'm tired of people speaking to me like I'm a child.

The word speaking can be an adjective, but in this case, it functions as a verb and an alternative to the following sentence:

I'm of people who speak to me like I'm a child.

The use of "condescending" as a present participle makes it a verb in a continuously active form. It happens all the time in all sorts of situation.

I'm tired of driving to work.
I'm sick of people complaining.

It's the same thing as Joel's sentence.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 11:12 AM

Yes I understand that but I was asking about whether or not to use 'to' after 'condescend', see the edit in my post you quoted.
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 11:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: JoelW

First of all, Pogo never said "marry for infatuation". Get it right.


I never said she did. Get it right, dude!


... "dude"?


Isn't Joel a "dude"?
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 11:27 AM

Originally Posted By: JoelW
Yes I understand that but I was asking about whether or not to use 'to' after 'condescend', see the edit in my post you quoted.


The usual expression is to be condescending towards someone.

Regards,
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 11:28 AM

Originally Posted By: the nosy ape
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Damon
[quote=JoelW]
Secondly, I'm so sick of older people condescending towards young people for being young. That s*** is obnoxious.


I'm sick of young people using adjectives in place of active verbs. laugh

Well, since you ask, "condescend" is a verb while "condescending" is an adjective. People can condescend, but they cannot condescending. People can, however, be condescending.


Almost.

"Condescend" is an intranstive verb which alone does not take a direct object.

"Condescending" is not only an adjective but is also a conjugation of the verb; it is the progressive form when combined with the helping verb "to be".

So in your correction, "being condescending" is the progressive form of the verb "to condescend", not an adjective. It would be an adjective if you would say "Damon is a condescending rascal." It would be a gerund if you said "Condescending is Damon's middle name."

To make it less permanent and less personal you could say:

"Secondly, I'm so sick of older people expressing condescension towards young people for being young. That s*** is obnoxious.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 11:35 AM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Unfortunately, the only objective, universal measure of "value" that we have is money.


Since when can money be considered an objective measure of value, let alone the only objective, universal measure?
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 12:29 PM

Originally Posted By: theJourney

So in your correction, "being condescending" is the progressive form of the verb "to condescend", not an adjective. It would be an adjective if you would say "Damon is a condescending rascal." It would be a gerund if you said "Condescending is Damon's middle name."


I wasn't being condescending. I was expressing my distaste for the conjugation. I feel the same way about the use of "disrespecting" as in "You are disrespecting me". It's not technically wrong but it sounds clumsy, like Tarzan might say it. (ok, maybe a little condescending laugh )
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 12:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: theJourney

So in your correction, "being condescending" is the progressive form of the verb "to condescend", not an adjective. It would be an adjective if you would say "Damon is a condescending rascal." It would be a gerund if you said "Condescending is Damon's middle name."


I wasn't being condescending. I was expressing my distaste for the conjugation. I feel the same way about the use of "disrespecting" as in "You are disrespecting me". It's not technically wrong but it sounds clumsy, like Tarzan might say it. (ok, maybe a little condescending laugh )


So you started all this confusion because you prefer another wording? C'mon, man. lol

But I guess it's my fault for not knowing I wasn't actually wrong. (I still don't really know)
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 12:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: theJourney

So in your correction, "being condescending" is the progressive form of the verb "to condescend", not an adjective. It would be an adjective if you would say "Damon is a condescending rascal." It would be a gerund if you said "Condescending is Damon's middle name."


I wasn't being condescending. I was expressing my distaste for the conjugation. I feel the same way about the use of "disrespecting" as in "You are disrespecting me". It's not technically wrong but it sounds clumsy, like Tarzan might say it. (ok, maybe a little condescending laugh )


Lame backpedaling.
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 12:54 PM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: theJourney

So in your correction, "being condescending" is the progressive form of the verb "to condescend", not an adjective. It would be an adjective if you would say "Damon is a condescending rascal." It would be a gerund if you said "Condescending is Damon's middle name."


I wasn't being condescending. I was expressing my distaste for the conjugation. I feel the same way about the use of "disrespecting" as in "You are disrespecting me". It's not technically wrong but it sounds clumsy, like Tarzan might say it. (ok, maybe a little condescending laugh )


Lame backpedaling.


There was nothing to backpedal. Your reading skills and analysis are lame.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 01:19 PM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Unfortunately, the only objective, universal measure of "value" that we have is money.


Since when can money be considered an objective measure of value, let alone the only objective, universal measure?


A dollar is a dollar in anyone's hands. The value of a dollar (or a pound, or a Euro, or a Swiss Franc) at any point in time is objective, not subjective. That's true anywhere (barring a few countries that impose currency controls).

The fact that the value of a dollar is empirically verifiable and not a matter of personal opinion makes it an objective measure of value. The fact that that value holds true essentially everywhere makes it a universal measure of value.

If I'm missing some other objective and universal measure of value, I'd very much welcome knowing about it.
Posted by: Roger Ransom

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 03:26 PM

So --- Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic?

Good grief.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 03:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Roger Ransom
So --- Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic?

Good grief.


Nope, never!
Posted by: wr

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 07:18 PM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Unfortunately, the only objective, universal measure of "value" that we have is money.


Since when can money be considered an objective measure of value, let alone the only objective, universal measure?


A dollar is a dollar in anyone's hands. The value of a dollar (or a pound, or a Euro, or a Swiss Franc) at any point in time is objective, not subjective. That's true anywhere (barring a few countries that impose currency controls).

The fact that the value of a dollar is empirically verifiable and not a matter of personal opinion makes it an objective measure of value. The fact that that value holds true essentially everywhere makes it a universal measure of value.

If I'm missing some other objective and universal measure of value, I'd very much welcome knowing about it.


There is no objective and universal measure of value, and there is no reason to expect that there should be one. The "objective" value of a dollar is self-referential, and not a measure of anything outside of itself.

If I give the farmer at the farmer's market a few dollars for some tomatoes, that doesn't mean the real value of the tomatoes has actually been measured, either for the farmer or for me. It only means that we both agree to use the exchange rate as a convenient symbolic proxy for barter. If money were to actually measure anything, it would, as one condition, have to stay constant in what it represents. It doesn't.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 10:40 PM

Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Unfortunately, the only objective, universal measure of "value" that we have is money.


Since when can money be considered an objective measure of value, let alone the only objective, universal measure?


A dollar is a dollar in anyone's hands. The value of a dollar (or a pound, or a Euro, or a Swiss Franc) at any point in time is objective, not subjective. That's true anywhere (barring a few countries that impose currency controls).

The fact that the value of a dollar is empirically verifiable and not a matter of personal opinion makes it an objective measure of value. The fact that that value holds true essentially everywhere makes it a universal measure of value.

If I'm missing some other objective and universal measure of value, I'd very much welcome knowing about it.


There is no objective and universal measure of value, and there is no reason to expect that there should be one. The "objective" value of a dollar is self-referential, and not a measure of anything outside of itself.

If I give the farmer at the farmer's market a few dollars for some tomatoes, that doesn't mean the real value of the tomatoes has actually been measured, either for the farmer or for me. It only means that we both agree to use the exchange rate as a convenient symbolic proxy for barter. If money were to actually measure anything, it would, as one condition, have to stay constant in what it represents. It doesn't.





It is precisely an agreement about value. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you weren't offering the farmer in money what he felt the items were worth, he would wait for the next punter. If you thought he was charging too much money, you'd move on to the next stall. But since you are making the deal, you are ageeing -- in money -- what you both believe the value of the items to be.

Thanks for the excellent illustration.
Posted by: wr

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/25/13 11:26 PM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Unfortunately, the only objective, universal measure of "value" that we have is money.


Since when can money be considered an objective measure of value, let alone the only objective, universal measure?


A dollar is a dollar in anyone's hands. The value of a dollar (or a pound, or a Euro, or a Swiss Franc) at any point in time is objective, not subjective. That's true anywhere (barring a few countries that impose currency controls).

The fact that the value of a dollar is empirically verifiable and not a matter of personal opinion makes it an objective measure of value. The fact that that value holds true essentially everywhere makes it a universal measure of value.

If I'm missing some other objective and universal measure of value, I'd very much welcome knowing about it.


There is no objective and universal measure of value, and there is no reason to expect that there should be one. The "objective" value of a dollar is self-referential, and not a measure of anything outside of itself.

If I give the farmer at the farmer's market a few dollars for some tomatoes, that doesn't mean the real value of the tomatoes has actually been measured, either for the farmer or for me. It only means that we both agree to use the exchange rate as a convenient symbolic proxy for barter. If money were to actually measure anything, it would, as one condition, have to stay constant in what it represents. It doesn't.





It is precisely an agreement about value. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you weren't offering the farmer in money what he felt the items were worth, he would wait for the next punter. If you thought he was charging too much money, you'd move on to the next stall. But since you are making the deal, you are ageeing -- in money -- what you both believe the value of the items to be.

Thanks for the excellent illustration.


Nope, it's not about value. As the person paying, I'm one side of the transaction that doesn't believe that way, regardless of what the farmer thinks and believes. And there's certainly no guarantee that the farmer thinks as you do, either. You can assert whatever you want - it doesn't make it real for me.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/26/13 02:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Damon
I'm sick of young people using adjectives in place of active verbs. laugh

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: theJourney

"being condescending" is the progressive form of the verb "to condescend", not an adjective. It would be an adjective if you would say "Damon is a condescending rascal." It would be a gerund if you said "Condescending is Damon's middle name."

Originally Posted By: Damon
I was expressing my distaste for the conjugation... It's not technically wrong but it sounds clumsy,


Lame backpedaling.

Originally Posted By: Damon

There was nothing to backpedal. Your reading skills and analysis are lame.


You are digging a yet deeper hole.

Real men have the balls to admit their mistakes and offer their apologies.

Try it, you'll like it! whome
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/26/13 04:15 AM

And this all started as a discussion of what?
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/26/13 04:52 AM

WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: wr

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/26/13 07:43 AM

Originally Posted By: -Frycek
And this all started as a discussion of what?


Whether acoustic pianos will eventually be supplanted by digitals, in part because of economic considerations.

That pretty much means a discussion of the acoustic instrument's value to people vs. the value of DPs will ensue. And so I think some of us aren't really too far OT - we're still talking about value (and, a bit more OT, whether it can be objectively measured).

Speaking of which, the idea that what I paid for my piano measures its value to me is either ludicrous or obscene, I can't decide which. Maybe it is both.

It also didn't measure the value to the seller, who charged me the usual price, but, in fact, was somewhat chagrined that I bought it at just that moment, since it had been selected to be the main instrument for a competition the dealership was sponsoring. It was the best instrument they had in stock for that purpose, but that fact was not reflected in the price.
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/26/13 08:04 AM

Originally Posted By: wr

It also didn't measure the value to the seller, who charged me the usual price, but, in fact, was somewhat chagrined that I bought it at just that moment, since it had been selected to be the main instrument for a competition the dealership was sponsoring. It was the best instrument they had in stock for that purpose, but that fact was not reflected in the price.


He sold it to you. Was he not in control of the sale?
Posted by: wr

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/26/13 08:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: wr

It also didn't measure the value to the seller, who charged me the usual price, but, in fact, was somewhat chagrined that I bought it at just that moment, since it had been selected to be the main instrument for a competition the dealership was sponsoring. It was the best instrument they had in stock for that purpose, but that fact was not reflected in the price.


He sold it to you. Was he not in control of the sale?


She.

Being "in control of the sale" doesn't really get to what I was talking about, which was that the instrument had some value to the dealership that was not reflected in the price, or, now that you bring it up, availability to buyers.

Sure, they could have taken it off the market because they wanted to save it for the competition. Being a large dealer, they had an inventory of other decent instruments to use for the competition. So, they had to make some judgement calls about what mattered the most to them. Those sorts of judgement calls are a kind of gambling, rather than expressions of real value.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/26/13 10:50 AM

Originally Posted By: -Frycek
And this all started as a discussion of what?

Don't remember, but it became a discussion of whether mistaken pedantry about grammar is a relic, and that hopefully it will be pretty soon. grin
(Joel, there was never anything wrong with how you said that thing.)

Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually it is, especially if we get off the mistaken pedantry. The discussion has been excellent -- and I hope the moderators aren't thinking of closing it.
Posted by: the nosy ape

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/26/13 12:43 PM

Well, I was trying not to be pedantic, but being brief only invited more responses. C'est la vie.

As far as the original topic goes, I do not think the acoustic piano is going to disappear any time soon. While it would be possible to make a digital piano that is indistinguishable from an acoustic one, the development costs would be astronomical and the sales of such a thing would probably not be all that great. As with all consumer products, manufacturers will strive to hit the "sweet spot" of the market, usually something that is "good enough" and inexpensive. But there will always be the high end and "lunatic fringe" markets. Here the current manufacturers have the advantage in that much of their development has already been done. Even innovations like composite actions and carbon fiber soundboards are really just incremental changes to the instruments' designs. It looks like the spinet and console markets are already gone. I can believe studios and small grands will follow. I do not think it will go much beyond that.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/26/13 01:32 PM

.
Posted by: Mark_C

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/26/13 10:16 PM

Originally Posted By: the nosy ape
Well, I was trying not to be pedantic....

I don't think any of us were referring particularly to you, and I hope nobody is worrying particularly about this any more anyway. smile
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 02:42 AM

The Harp has existed for thousands of years and continued/continues to be played side-by-side by the hammered dulcimer, the clavichord, the harpsichord, the fortepiano and today's pianoFORTE.

It is, however, now a specialized instrument used primarily by professionals in certain limited settings such as orchestras, etc.

I could imagine the (concert) grand piano having the same status as the harp in the not too unimaginably distant future.
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 03:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
And this all started as a discussion of what?

Don't remember, but it became a discussion of whether mistaken pedantry about grammar is a relic, and that hopefully it will be pretty soon. grin
(Joel, there was never anything wrong with how you said that thing.)

Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually it is, especially if we get off the mistaken pedantry. The discussion has been excellent -- and I hope the moderators aren't thinking of closing it.


Yes, it is definitely a discussion worth pursuing. If the forum hotheads don't ruin it first.

I, for one, doubt that acoustic pianos are going the way of the dodo bird anytime soon. Digital piano technology just isn't there. The acoustic piano is a rich continuum of sounds, feelings, and colors.

Digital technology is (and always will be) hampered by the fact that you are limited to a set of discrete states (binary 0's and 1's at the most basic level). It may work well in a band setting or for folks who don't have room or can't afford an acoustic piano. But so long as there exists concert music that requires expressive depth, there will be acoustic pianos.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 07:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Horowitzian

Digital technology is (and always will be) hampered by the fact that you are limited to a set of discrete states (binary 0's and 1's at the most basic level). It may work well in a band setting or for folks who don't have room or can't afford an acoustic piano. But so long as there exists concert music that requires expressive depth, there will be acoustic pianos.


All the music we hear is based on the binary system, unless it's live, or on analog recordings on LP or tape, or scratchy 78s.....

The best piano sounds I've heard are on CD: digital recordings of perfectly tuned and regulated concert grands played by master pianists, with the microphones at the ideal distance. Not live in concert, or when I'm playing the piano myself - because I'm not sitting in the ideal position to hear the piano.

So, it's not digital technology per se that limits the sound of digital pianos; it's how it's implemented.....
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 09:04 AM

Why does everyone seem to assume that the successor to the piano would necessarily have to be a digital faux-piano/pretender instrument?

Why did the fortepiano and the pianoforte succeed the clavichord?
After all, across many aspects, the clavichord is a superior instrument:
- it allows for additional expression through the use of bebung;
- it is more suited to home and individual playing;
...and was the clear choice of any number of composer/performers including CPE Bach.

One reason, of course, was the new phenomenon of the public, large hall concert demanding LOUDER INSTRUMENTS. Another, was a change in the kind of dramatic music being played as we moved into Heavy Duty German Romanticism. Another reason might be seen as "progress for the sake of progress" where persuing technologically more advanced instruments was seen as a historical imperative.

The kind of music that is being demanded today and that can reasonably expected to be demanded in the future would seem to be changing even more rapidly and radically than at the time of the eclipse of the clavichord after the Pre-Classica and Classical Periods.

Everything, everywhere around us in today's society is getting louder and louder and noisier and noisier. In many countries, more than half of children growing up today will have severe hearing impairment by the time they reach the age of 50. Pianos -- even relatively small uprights and 6' grands -- have become 100 dB(A)+, eardrum shattering, auditorium filling, shouting technological marvels. Yet they will never be able to compare to the throbbing sounds emerging from professional sound installations at bars, cafes, pop concerts and rave parties that are, for good or bad, largely determinining the listening expectations for huge swaths of the population.

At the same time, those of us who play chamber music or enjoy being on the " house concert " circuit, are too often using pianos that are complete overkill for the spaces they are found in.

Perhaps it is time for the pianoFORTE to lead to the next fortePIANO?
Posted by: Damon

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 11:44 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Why does everyone seem to assume that the successor to the piano would necessarily have to be a digital faux-piano/pretender instrument?


Cost.
Posted by: Pogorelich.

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 12:50 PM

So what will happen to all those real pianos? Will we have to burn them?
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 01:05 PM

Only diamonds are forever, Pogorelich.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/arts/m...ed=all&_r=0
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 01:54 PM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Why does everyone seem to assume that the successor to the piano would necessarily have to be a digital faux-piano/pretender instrument?
Because technology seems to advance at an incredibly fast rate, and after a very short span of time the digital/hybrid is already incredibly close in sound and touch.
Posted by: ando

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 02:24 PM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Why does everyone seem to assume that the successor to the piano would necessarily have to be a digital faux-piano/pretender instrument?
Because technology seems to advance at an incredibly fast rate, and after a very short span of time the digital/hybrid is already incredibly close in sound and touch.


It's not that close, but yes, it's very gradually getting there.
Posted by: johnlewisgrant

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 04:29 PM

Excellent question, to which the general answer is easy:

Loudspeaker technology is the hurdle, and it's a BIG one... a HUGE DIFFERENCE ....

Fake pianos are totally real-sounding IFFFFF ... you mean "compared to a real RECORDED piano".

No question. You can't tell the difference between a RECORDING of a real piano and a high end sample... Impossible (wasn't always the case, but it is now.)

But LIVE...LIVE .... LIVE????!!!!

No comparison between acoustic and fake. Because FAKE need LOUDSPEAKERS... which aren't (YET) able to convincingly copy the real thing in SOLO live performance settting.

(But we may be getting there soon. Then all bets are off!)

SORRY TO OFFEND.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 04:34 PM

You've clearly never heard a £50,000 Bowers and Wilkins setup.
Posted by: patH

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 06:52 PM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
You've clearly never heard a £50,000 Bowers and Wilkins setup.

At that price, you can get a tier 1 acoustic grand piano. wink
Posted by: johnlewisgrant

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 07:44 PM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
You've clearly never heard a £50,000 Bowers and Wilkins setup.


Sure... great RECORDED sound. No question.

But that's the whole point... it's RECORDED, albeit with fantastic sound.

But fantastically real recorded sound is NOT the same as the acoustical/tactile feeling of playing live even on a [censored]-poor instrument.

Not saying that one is superior to the other.

They're just DIFFERENT.

Also not saying that B&W couldn't rig a system up to a properly regulated touch-sensitive keyboard that couldn't completely fool the pianist/player.

But it hasn't been done yet.

Probably COULD be accomplished, though. No reason why not.
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 08:47 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian

Digital technology is (and always will be) hampered by the fact that you are limited to a set of discrete states (binary 0's and 1's at the most basic level). It may work well in a band setting or for folks who don't have room or can't afford an acoustic piano. But so long as there exists concert music that requires expressive depth, there will be acoustic pianos.


All the music we hear is based on the binary system, unless it's live, or on analog recordings on LP or tape, or scratchy 78s.....

The best piano sounds I've heard are on CD: digital recordings of perfectly tuned and regulated concert grands played by master pianists, with the microphones at the ideal distance. Not live in concert, or when I'm playing the piano myself - because I'm not sitting in the ideal position to hear the piano.

So, it's not digital technology per se that limits the sound of digital pianos; it's how it's implemented.....


That's not the point though. All a digital piano does (even a high end one) is play back the SAME sound, possibly with some discrete set of differing volumes if it has touch sensitivity. This comes nowhere near what you can get out of a decent acoustic piano, vertical or grand.

Naturally, a professional recording played through a high end hifi system in a good room is going to sound amazing, but in my opinion, comparing that to a digital piano is apples and oranges. There is nothing about an acoustic piano that digital technology can replace, save for costs of maintenance. And maybe a a cost-effective alternative to a junky PSO.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 08:54 PM

I brought it up with Debrucey and I'll say it again:

Can the best technology fool you when playing both real and synthetic grand pianos side by side, blindfolded? If you CANNOT tell which one is real and which one is fake, the synthetic piano has succeeded. (but this will never happen)
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 09:19 PM

I disagree that it will never happen. The only way you can say that is if you know what will happen in the future, and you don't. I don't see any conceptual or technological barriers to it happening.

Horowitzian, your understanding of digital pianos is a few years behind.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 09:42 PM

[b]
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian


That's not the point though. All a digital piano does (even a high end one) is play back the SAME sound, possibly with some discrete set of differing volumes if it has touch sensitivity. This comes nowhere near what you can get out of a decent acoustic piano, vertical or grand.

Naturally, a professional recording played through a high end hifi system in a good room is going to sound amazing, but in my opinion, comparing that to a digital piano is apples and oranges. There is nothing about an acoustic piano that digital technology can replace, save for costs of maintenance. And maybe a a cost-effective alternative to a junky PSO.


You were equating the binary number thing with hampering the emulation of piano sound, which I pointed out cannot be true, because otherwise we'd only listen to analog recordings on LP still, and digitally recorded music (which is in binary code) would still sound synthetic. (Granted, there are still a few die-hards who insist that digital recordings are still inferior to analog....).

Also, if you read one of my earlier posts, I mentioned the difference between sampled and modeled digital piano sounds: a sampled sound undeniably always give you the same sound, because it's a recording of a single note; but modeled sounds don't, because they're generated from scratch, depending entirely on how you play, and what's already sounding, and whether the damper is off the strings etc, etc. Therefore, the same note will sound different depending on its context, and not just in volume and overtones.
But at present, there are still only two digital pianos that use pure modeling in their sound generation (though a third one has just appeared from a small company, and is generating some interest over in the digital piano forum).
Posted by: argerichfan

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/27/13 10:29 PM

Originally Posted By: JoelW

Can the best technology fool you when playing both real and synthetic grand pianos side by side, blindfolded? If you CANNOT tell which one is real and which one is fake, the synthetic piano has succeeded.

Well as an organist myself, I am never fooled, and recordings will not count for obvious reasons.

After hearing electronic substitutes in Worcester, Hereford and Chichester cathedrals in the UK -to call out only three which I can currently think of- there is just no way an educated ear could possibly be fooled.

To be fair, the electronic substitutes at Hereford and Chichester were temporary whilst their pipe organs were undergoing a rebuild.
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 12:16 AM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
I disagree that it will never happen. The only way you can say that is if you know what will happen in the future, and you don't. I don't see any conceptual or technological barriers to it happening.

Horowitzian, your understanding of digital pianos is a few years behind.


Perhaps stating that it will "never happen" is assuming a bit too much, so I'll qualify that...

I doubt we will see a digital piano in our lifetimes that will be able to match an acoustic piano. The modeling technology bennevis points out is intriguing, but it is still just that. A model, and it necessarily will be imperfect. Perhaps if someone develops a digital piano that contains a quantum computer. laugh

Also, how is my knowledge behind if there are only 3 modeled pianos on the market? Has sampling somehow become exponentially better during the alleged gap in my knowledge?
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 02:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: debrucey
I disagree that it will never happen. The only way you can say that is if you know what will happen in the future, and you don't. I don't see any conceptual or technological barriers to it happening.

Horowitzian, your understanding of digital pianos is a few years behind.


Perhaps stating that it will "never happen" is assuming a bit too much, so I'll qualify that...

I doubt we will see a digital piano in our lifetimes that will be able to match an acoustic piano. The modeling technology bennevis points out is intriguing, but it is still just that. A model, and it necessarily will be imperfect. Perhaps if someone develops a digital piano that contains a quantum computer. laugh

Also, how is my knowledge behind if there are only 3 modeled pianos on the market? Has sampling somehow become exponentially better during the alleged gap in my knowledge?


Modeling is not just intriguing. Modeling is US. The world as we know it, including all pianos analog and digital, is nothing more than an imperfect model in our heads. If a Disklavier is playing Gershwin and there is no human to hear it, is there a player piano playing? No. If there is a piano in a showroom on West 57th Street but no human mind to model it as such, is there a piano? No. If the world were to be destroyed by neutron bomb, killing all humans and leaving the buildings and Avantgrands and Steinways standing, then pianos will instantly cease to exist too, despite the specific continued configuration of atoms for a century or too until the elements get to them.

Quantum effects may be implicated in our personal and subjective illusion of consciousness, but it won't take the application of anything so grand as quantum computing to produce a modeled digital piano that eventually can eventually satisfy the expectations that an acoustic piano can today, for a recording studio, for a listener live and for a player.

The question of course is: why would we necessarily want to? What are the specific and compelling advantages of such an approach that would have us relegate the acoustic piano to the junk heap of history (rather than, e.g. to merely supplant accoustic pianos under specific conditions)?

Today I can buy low cost, low maintenance linoleum or plastic laminaat flooring. However, we choose to have natural hardwood floor laid by hand in fish scale pattern, requiring monthly waxing by hand. It is less efficient, but infinitely more satisfying. By the same token, one may be able to buy a grand piano where the sound engine is modeled and sound reproduction is electonic and based on speakers and transducers (while probably still containing a very, very physical and mechanical action). But, other than the fact that TODAY'S MODERN GRAND PIANOS ARE ALMOST ALWAYS TOO DAMN LOUD FOR ANYTHING BUT A LARGE AUDITORIUM, or I might save a few bucks, why would we? Strings, a soundboard, the smell of wood, authentic inharmonicity, etc. -- it is all much more satisfying.

We might consider creating -- as an analog to the famous Turing Test for artificial intelligence proposed by the British war hero Alan Turing who practically single-handedly defeated the Nazis by brilliantly cracking their enigma code before killing himself in desperation after being chemically castrated by his own nation just because he was sexually attracted to men -- the deBrucey test for digital piano prowess.

There are many instances today where hybrid pianos already could pass the deBrucey test in all or some circumstances for many, many pianists. Don't believe it? Just get yourself to a Yamaha showroom and find a well regulated Yamaha C3 Grand with the SH Silent system installed. Play acoustically then play digitally with comfortable, high-fidelity headphones. Get into your playing. Switch back and forth. Many or even most pianists will at some point forget or not be able to tell or not find important whether or not they are playing " live or memorex ".
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 03:22 AM

The fact that a model will be imperfect is irrelevant. It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be good enough to fool our brains, and that is nowhere near perfect.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 03:23 AM

You say 'save a few bucks' as if the difference between £1000 and £10,000 isn't a deciding factor for almost everybody.
Posted by: sandalholme

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 05:42 AM

Re theJourney's post. The pianoforte took off, not just because of the ability to alter the volume of sound, but because of its ability to play softly. The harpsichord was relatively loud. What is fascinating is, that having bought a Kawai ES7 which now sits in the same house as a Kawai RX2, one advantage of the ES7 is that it is softer, pp can be much quieter than with the RX2. In other words it is a domestically friendly instrument. On the main topic, I have now recorded a few hours from the ES7 and burned a cd to hear it through good quality equipment. In soft passages, the sound - including resonance/note decay - approaches an acoustic. From mf upwards, the acoustic sound is clearly better. As always with recorded music, the sound varies with the differences between the sound system used.

I refer to recordings because they can be listened to objectively, but they bear out my subjective response whilst playing.

The ES7, or any decent DP, is a great domestic instrument and I have also played it publicly in a small venue - 40 people - and was gratified at their response to the sound.

My conclusion is that the acoustic piano will survive as a professional instrument for concerts/recitals but it will die out as a domestic instrument - a trend which is well under way.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 05:49 AM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
You say 'save a few bucks' as if the difference between £1000 and £10,000 isn't a deciding factor for almost everybody.


Horses for courses.

If you want today, or in the near future, a modelled, digital piano that can function as a grand piano in a concert hall you will spend the same amount or even more as a commercial grade acoustic piano. There won't be the saving of a few bucks.

If one wants a truly convincing digital piano playing experience in a home instrument -- one that is convincing enough to still the inevitable, relentless hankering for a real, acoustic piano over months and years of playing -- then you may spend a similiar amout, or be forced to buy an acoustic piano with a digital piano built in.

At the same time, due to the miracle of modern manufacturing techniques and global trade, high quality acoustic grand pianos are going down, down, down in price and have perhaps never been more affordable in the history of mankind than they are now.
Originally Posted By: debrucey
The fact that a model will be imperfect is irrelevant. It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be good enough to fool our brains, and that is nowhere near perfect.

Our brains, as they create our world around us from moment to moment, can indeed be quite easily fooled. However, the more senses that are involved, the more experience we have and the more detailed our expectations, the harder it is to "pull off". All of the senses are involved for the piano player, and, the experienced piano player with 10 to 20 years of playing under his or her belt has quite some sophisticated expectations.


Again, however, I really do question whether what will really happen in the future of musical instrument evolution will simply be that today's grand piano tone and playing characteristics will be eternally immortalized into a whoopdeedoodah digital reincarnation -- like some prehistoric insect presevered in amber -- simply because of the happy coincidence that the piano was the predominant keyboard instrument at the time that the computing revolution could create reasonable facscimiles.

Sure, I love the piano, but do I think that the best that the human race can come up with is to make plastic copies of an instrument that has been around for a couple of centuries, taking pains to duplicate all its inherent mechanical and musical shortcomings and to stop evolution and development in its tracks? I shudder to think that such a reactionary faux-conservatism would be the extent of our ambition and define our long term vision.
Posted by: wr

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 06:18 AM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
The fact that a model will be imperfect is irrelevant. It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be good enough to fool our brains, and that is nowhere near perfect.


I suspect that the fooling of our brain is a fairly shallow kind of fooling. There has been little work done objectively test whether our brains, as players, get fooled over the long term, AFAIK. And I think that "over the long term" matters a lot.

It might be that my brain could be fooled for a week by a digital piano, but not for a year. But at this point, there's no way to even test that, because there's no way to easily disguise the kind of piano one is playing.

I suppose there could be some sort of arrangement where the bodies of the instruments are hidden behind an acoustically transparent but visually opaque screen of some sort, and the test pianists were required to switch back and forth between them over a long period, while logging impressions of how they compared. And you'd need to do it with a significant number of pianists. I don't think there have been any tests like this, so far.
Posted by: wr

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 06:40 AM

Originally Posted By: johnlewisgrant

Loudspeaker technology is the hurdle, and it's a BIG one... a HUGE DIFFERENCE ....



I think you are right that is a major issue.

I've several times had the experience of hearing music that incorporated a synthesizer part within an orchestra of acoustic instruments, and the synth always stuck out like a sore thumb. I always thought the weird "wrongness" of their part was not because of the kind of sounds they were making, but because they were producing sounds through loudspeakers. Loudspeakers simply do not make the air vibrate in the same way that an acoustic instrument does, and it's a perceptible difference. And it becomes very obvious when trying to incorporate a synth into an otherwise acoustic ensemble in a live performance. So far, in my experience, it can't be done without drawing a "hey, this is a loudspeaker" kind of attention to itself.
Posted by: patH

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 06:48 AM

Originally Posted By: sandalholme
Re theJourney's post. The pianoforte took off, not just because of the ability to alter the volume of sound, but because of its ability to play softly. The harpsichord was relatively loud. What is fascinating is, that having bought a Kawai ES7 which now sits in the same house as a Kawai RX2, one advantage of the ES7 is that it is softer, pp can be much quieter than with the RX2. In other words it is a domestically friendly instrument.

[...]

My conclusion is that the acoustic piano will survive as a professional instrument for concerts/recitals but it will die out as a domestic instrument - a trend which is well under way.

Actually, the fact that digital pianos can play more softly than acoustic pianos (thanks to volume control) will make sure that acoustic pianos will NOT die out.

Because people who perform regularly in public or semi-public places will want to be able to adjust quickly to the acoustic piano they will most likely be playing on. And if they practised on a DP with quiet volume, they will be overwhelmed by the loudness of the acoustic piano, if they play it like a digital piano.

I know that firsthand. Before I bought my Yamaha C2, I had a Yamaha Clavinova CLP-150. And when I visited my parents and played on my father's Sauter upright, I thought: Wow, what a powerful instrument. And I don't even have to play too hard.
Today, I am used to my powerful Yamaha C2, and when I play on the Sauter, I think: Well, it's not a grand piano. It's more neighbour-friendly.

Digital pianos will be first choice for people who play just for their own amusement, never perform in public, and don't have to care about technique. But for more ambitious players, an acoustic piano is still the measure.
Posted by: sandalholme

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 01:48 PM

Set at full volume, the ES7 plays much more softly than the RX2 - when the touch becomes so light the note doesn't sound.

As for technique, never performing in public, and being more ambitious, I have played acoustic pianos and harpsichords in public since the 1970's, including recording for the BBC. 20 years experience of maintaining a harpsichord - tuning, restringing, replacing quills, voicing etc. I doubt I am the only exception to your rule that would rate me as only playing for pleasure, not caring about technique etc.

Digitals and acoustics are different, but do not make the mistake of regarding even moderately priced digitals as only for people who are playing around with the piano, who are not ambitious and who don't care about technique. They may not equal acoustics in some respects, but music can be coaxed out of them, in roughly the same way that music is coaxed out of an acoustic.
Posted by: joflah

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 01:49 PM

Another aspect of this is whether 'piano' will become a relic. There's a lot of effort to perfect digital versions of acoustic pianos, with the holy grail taken as an imitation indistinguishable from a high-end 20th century acoustic instrument. It's not surprising, given the refinement of that instrument, the tremendous accumulation of literature for it, and the great cultural investment in piano playing, even for works never written for the piano per se.
The digital/computer revolution opens the way for an infinity of other instruments, played with a standard keyboard or not. It may be that the perfection of the imitation of the acoustic piano is a side show.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 05:06 PM

Originally Posted By: sandalholme


Digitals and acoustics are different, but do not make the mistake of regarding even moderately priced digitals as only for people who are playing around with the piano, who are not ambitious and who don't care about technique. They may not equal acoustics in some respects, but music can be coaxed out of them, in roughly the same way that music is coaxed out of an acoustic.



I'd been playing on acoustics exclusively from age 10 (many, many, many years ago wink ) until three years ago, but can say without any doubt that my technique has improved out of all recognition since acquiring, and playing on a digital grin (from 2010 onwards).

OK, that's not because it's a digital - it's just that I now have a piano to practise on anytime when I'm at home. I'm sure I'd have improved just as much if my piano is a Bösendorfer Imperial (still my dream piano) - but only if I have a mansion to put it in, and no neighbors to worry about. BTW, when I say 'improved', I don't just mean finger dexterity and octave/chord technique: it's all aspects of piano playing, including minute control of touch and articulation, dynamics, voicing, tone color etc.

BUT - I play my DP like an acoustic. The volume control has been fixed to give the volume via my headphones equivalent to that of a small grand. (My DP has no speakers). I've only ever adjusted it once - when I upgraded to a better pair of headphones two years ago, which has slightly higher impedance. I believe a big reason why many people who practise exclusively on digitals never develop (or lose the ability for) proper control of dynamics, tone and voicing is because they use the volume control to do what pianists playing on acoustics have to do using just their own muscles. If you want to play pp without 'silent' notes, how much easier to just turn the volume control down - because you can - than to develop real muscular control. And if you are trying not to disturb your nearest and dearest watching TV in the next room, again far easier just to turn the volume control down rather than use your headphones.....but how can one develop real keyboard control when the goalpost keeps moving?

I see (and hear) these problems from DP users frequently when I visit piano showrooms.
But to blame their technical problems exclusively on their use of DPs (assuming they are of high quality) rather than the way they play on them is wrong.

And IMO, all those additional fun sounds (organ, synth, 'electronic piano' etc, etc) on most DPs just encourage development of bad playing habits - because you're still using the same key action but having to change the way you play, because the sound isn't a piano sound, and doesn't behave like one when you alter your touch.
Posted by: patH

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: sandalholme
As for technique, never performing in public, and being more ambitious, I have played acoustic pianos and harpsichords in public since the 1970's, including recording for the BBC. 20 years experience of maintaining a harpsichord - tuning, restringing, replacing quills, voicing etc. I doubt I am the only exception to your rule that would rate me as only playing for pleasure, not caring about technique etc.

Digitals and acoustics are different, but do not make the mistake of regarding even moderately priced digitals as only for people who are playing around with the piano, who are not ambitious and who don't care about technique. They may not equal acoustics in some respects, but music can be coaxed out of them, in roughly the same way that music is coaxed out of an acoustic.

Ok, maybe I was simplifying a bit. My point was that when you set the loudspeaker of the DP too low, then you will play differently than on an acoustic piano. At least that's what I did, and it wasn't good for my technique.

But when you play a digital piano like an acoustic (like bennevis), with comparable volume, then the digital piano can be a serious instrument, if it has a good action. Unfortunately, most digitals are not quite there yet. And those that are cost almost as much as an acoustic piano, if not more. I'm thinking Yamaha AvantGrand, or the lesser known Alpha Piano.

On the other hand, if you play piano AND harpsichord, then maybe you have a different technique than me. I played a harpsichord only a few times, and had a tendency to hack. Maybe I play best on an instrument with not too light action.
Posted by: Vid

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 07:03 PM

Well said bennivis!

I would add that using piano software gives you a much wider palette to work with.

My Clavinova has maybe 6 - 8 samples mapped to various velocity levels (I think it outputs around 100 out of a possible 128 midi signals). When I switched to using pianoteq I found it provided a much larger range in dynamics and color. I could more effectively bring out different voices and believe it has improved my technique considerably.

I hope to replace the clavinova with a much better keyboard (probably a Kawai VPC when I can get my hands on one). I believe combining that with piano software will give me an instrument that is better than most mediocre uprights.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/28/13 11:36 PM

Originally Posted By: patH
Originally Posted By: sandalholme
As for technique, never performing in public, and being more ambitious, I have played acoustic pianos and harpsichords in public since the 1970's, including recording for the BBC. 20 years experience of maintaining a harpsichord - tuning, restringing, replacing quills, voicing etc. I doubt I am the only exception to your rule that would rate me as only playing for pleasure, not caring about technique etc.

Digitals and acoustics are different, but do not make the mistake of regarding even moderately priced digitals as only for people who are playing around with the piano, who are not ambitious and who don't care about technique. They may not equal acoustics in some respects, but music can be coaxed out of them, in roughly the same way that music is coaxed out of an acoustic.

Ok, maybe I was simplifying a bit. My point was that when you set the loudspeaker of the DP too low, then you will play differently than on an acoustic piano. At least that's what I did, and it wasn't good for my technique.

But when you play a digital piano like an acoustic (like bennevis), with comparable volume, then the digital piano can be a serious instrument, if it has a good action. Unfortunately, most digitals are not quite there yet. And those that are cost almost as much as an acoustic piano, if not more. I'm thinking Yamaha AvantGrand, or the lesser known Alpha Piano.

On the other hand, if you play piano AND harpsichord, then maybe you have a different technique than me. I played a harpsichord only a few times, and had a tendency to hack. Maybe I play best on an instrument with not too light action.


Are Alpha pianos actually being sold to the public, or is this more vaporware?
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/29/13 01:21 AM

Originally Posted By: patH
Digital pianos will be first choice for people who play just for their own amusement, never perform in public, and don't have to care about technique. But for more ambitious players, an acoustic piano is still the measure.


Not so sure about this.

Interestingly enough, some of the biggest boosters of digital pianos on pianoworld are professional and/or very highly advanced pianists...

On the other hand, most of the acoustic pianos being sold by our most successful piano retailer in town are to the families of piano students -- most of whom will never play for anything other than their own amazement (or tortured horror) -- upon the recommendation of their conservative piano teachers.

The Avantgrands, and the Silent C2s, etc. are often being delievered to the professional pianists.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/29/13 01:41 AM

Originally Posted By: sandalholme
Re theJourney's post. The pianoforte took off, not just because of the ability to alter the volume of sound, but because of its ability to play softly.


No. The problem with the harpsichord was one of not being able to play dynamics beyond the dynamics of using different manuals (terrace dynamics.)

The piano did not proceed directly from the harpsichord but from the gravicembalo col piano e forte or forte piano, which was no longer a plucked instrument but one of leather covered hammers and harpsichord-like strings and which was able to be played with dynamics including very softly but not nearly as loudly as today's pianos due among other things to its volume being limited by the restrictions on string tension predicated by a non-metal frame.

In many respects, the fortepiano was (and again today is) a superior instrument for playing in home environments. It has a light touch which is easy to manage for the legio of aging arthritic pianists, it has much more diversity of sound across the keyboard rather than the homogenous uniformness of the modern pianoforte, it does not produce ungodly volumes wholly unsuited to the home and practive environment to disturb neighbors and permanently destroy one's hearing without active intervention and self-protection like modern pianos, and for those who enjoy playing music from the 18th and first half of the 19th century it is often naturally better suited to the literature than the modern pianoforte.

It is no wonder that the fortepiano is being built and delivered again to pianists.

Now, if we could only have a pianoforte grand piano which was built for its musical qualities rather than an arms race of volume production and auditorium-filling rather like the horrible changes to wines in the international scene under the unhealthy influence of Robert Parker ratings demanding thick, concentrated, fruit-forward, highly alcoholic bombs of wines that win the ratings game but are undrinkable beyond the first glass.
Posted by: sandalholme

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/29/13 05:36 AM

theJourney: I agree with practically all you say in your last post except the volume issue. Early pianos were quieter than harpsichords - fact. Yet they caught on. The late English harpsichord makers went to great lengths to modify their instruments with Venetian swells etc - not to make them louder, but to enable them to play more softly, to give pseudo dynamic changes a la fortepiano.

Whilst the piano became the loud instrument of today, able to compete with an orchestra, lack of volume was not an issue originally, indeed, the ability to play softly like a clavichord, but audibly to people other than the player, was prized.

I have played harpsichords for decades - love them - but even the quietest stop produces a penetrating tone. The soft tone of leather on string, almost stroked rather than twanged, must have sounded very sweet to 18th century ears.
Posted by: patH

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/29/13 07:00 AM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Are Alpha pianos actually being sold to the public, or is this more vaporware?

I honestly don't know.
I checked out their website, which says that they are "probably available in late 2011", and that you need to contact them directly; and the website seems to have had its last update in March 2012, i.e. a year ago. And they are not listed as exhibitor for the Musikmesse 2013.

On the other hand, I have not found any articles that say that they went out of business.
I guess the easiest way to find out would be to contact them. If no reply comes, then it's probably vaporware.
Posted by: patH

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/29/13 07:12 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Interestingly enough, some of the biggest boosters of digital pianos on pianoworld are professional and/or very highly advanced pianists...

On the other hand, most of the acoustic pianos being sold by our most successful piano retailer in town are to the families of piano students -- most of whom will never play for anything other than their own amazement (or tortured horror) -- upon the recommendation of their conservative piano teachers.

The Avantgrands, and the Silent C2s, etc. are often being delievered to the professional pianists.

AvantGrands were the pianos I had in mind for professional pianists. They cost about as much as acoustic uprights.
And a Silent C2 is still an acoustic grand piano. One reason I bought it rather than an AvantGrand was because I wanted to resist the temptation of setting the volume of a digital piano to too quiet.

When I mentioned digital pianos as first choice for piano players without serious pianistic ambitions, I was thinking of digital pianos with a mediocre action, but with lots of gimmicks like different sounds, drum machines etc.. Something like Casio would make; or possibly several product ranges of Yamaha and Roland. I don't think a (semi-)professional pianist would consider these instruments as serious instruments for practise.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/29/13 07:26 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Now, if we could only have a pianoforte grand piano which was built for its musical qualities rather than an arms race of volume production and auditorium-filling...
This is a gross exaggeration I think. I have a 7' Mason BB in a 12'x18' room with no loudness problem. I also think all the top rated pianos sound glorious(highly musical)as long as one buys a size appropriate for the space it will be used. To characterize them as not built for their musical qualities is IMO incorrect.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/29/13 08:55 AM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Now, if we could only have a pianoforte grand piano which was built for its musical qualities rather than an arms race of volume production and auditorium-filling...
This is a gross exaggeration I think. I have a 7' Mason BB in a 12'x18' room with no loudness problem. I also think all the top rated pianos sound glorious(highly musical)as long as one buys a size appropriate for the space it will be used. To characterize them as not built for their musical qualities is IMO incorrect.


The musical qualities of most > 6' acoustic grands being built today are within the assumed context and competitive marketing imperative of a wannabee Steinway instrument possessing the capabilities to fill a concert hall or auditorium.

What is the construction year of your Mason BB? Pre-1985 by any chance?

That the player may not find them (too) loud does not mean that the listener might not -- and certainly says nothing about the neighbors. In Amsterdam, many pianos are (attempted to) be(ing) used in poorly insulated multi-family buildings that were built in the 16th, 17th & 18th centuries when pianos were not so loud while neighbors were much more tolerant and even appreciative of free piano music.

Modern grand pianos played forte can routinely produce sound levels that are in excess of 100 dB(A). Noise induced hearing loss is already suffered from sounds in excess of 85 dB(A) over extended periods of time consistent with normal piano practice.

The reason you might not think your BB is (too) loud may be because of your partial deafness. shocked
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/29/13 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
The musical qualities of most > 6' acoustic grands being built today are within the assumed context and competitive marketing imperative of a wannabee Steinway instrument possessing the capabilities to fill a concert hall or auditorium.

What is the construction year of your Mason BB? Pre-1985 by any chance?

That the player may not find them (too) loud does not mean that the listener might not -- and certainly says nothing about the neighbors. In Amsterdam, many pianos are (attempted to) be(ing) used in poorly insulated multi-family buildings that were built in the 16th, 17th & 18th centuries when pianos were not so loud while neighbors were much more tolerant and even appreciative of free piano music.

Modern grand pianos played forte can routinely produce sound levels that are in excess of 100 dB(A). Noise induced hearing loss is already suffered from sounds in excess of 85 dB(A) over extended periods of time consistent with normal piano practice.

The reason you might not think your BB is (too) loud may be because of your partial deafness. shocked
My hearing has been tested and is excellent despite many decades of playing. My BB is from around 2006. It's generally agreed that larger pianos can be played just as softly and perhaps softer than smaller ones in part due to their longer keys.

Neighbors can always be a problem but this isn't just a question of being too loud but often more the idea that one has to listen to someone practice at all which can be unpleasant at any volume especially if the person is repeating the same thing over and over. I got only my second complaint from a neighbor in 25 years about a week ago, but that was mostly due to playing the very loud and raucous Swanee River Boogie over and over for three weeks.

One person's forte is not necessarily the same as another person's forte so statements about forte playing inducing deafness don't have much validity IMO. I think it goes without saying that when a person plays forte in their home they are playing at a lower dynamic level than forte in a larger space.

If most pianos were really too loud then this problem would get far more notice then it does, word would have gotten out a long time ago, and soon it would drastically effect piano sales. Although there certainly have been some PW threads expressing concerns about a home piano being too loud, I think the percentage of people with this problem is relatively small since we tend to hear mostly from those with this problem and not people who don't have the problem.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/29/13 02:03 PM

Originally Posted By: patH

...When I mentioned digital pianos as first choice for piano players without serious pianistic ambitions, I was thinking of digital pianos with a mediocre action, but with lots of gimmicks like different sounds, drum machines etc.. Something like Casio would make; or possibly several product ranges of Yamaha and Roland. I don't think a (semi-)professional pianist would consider these instruments as serious instruments for practise.


I'm guessing you haven't played any of the most recent Casio DPs. They aren't toys by any means. To the contrary, many here consider their action competitive with digital instruments costing a lot more than the Casios.
Posted by: patH

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/29/13 02:36 PM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
I'm guessing you haven't played any of the most recent Casio DPs. They aren't toys by any means. To the contrary, many here consider their action competitive with digital instruments costing a lot more than the Casios.

You're right; I haven't played a recent Casio. But I've bought a Privia a few years ago; and when my Clavinova had a sticking key, I used the Privia as practise instrument. Bad idea.

Maybe other Casios are better. If they are, then please accept my apologies.
Posted by: Mwm

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/29/13 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Now, if we could only have a pianoforte grand piano which was built for its musical qualities rather than an arms race of volume production and auditorium-filling...
This is a gross exaggeration I think. I have a 7' Mason BB in a 12'x18' room with no loudness problem. I also think all the top rated pianos sound glorious(highly musical)as long as one buys a size appropriate for the space it will be used. To characterize them as not built for their musical qualities is IMO incorrect.


The musical qualities of most > 6' acoustic grands being built today are within the assumed context and competitive marketing imperative of a wannabee Steinway instrument possessing the capabilities to fill a concert hall or auditorium.

What is the construction year of your Mason BB? Pre-1985 by any chance?

That the player may not find them (too) loud does not mean that the listener might not -- and certainly says nothing about the neighbors. In Amsterdam, many pianos are (attempted to) be(ing) used in poorly insulated multi-family buildings that were built in the 16th, 17th & 18th centuries when pianos were not so loud while neighbors were much more tolerant and even appreciative of free piano music.

Modern grand pianos played forte can routinely produce sound levels that are in excess of 100 dB(A). Noise induced hearing loss is already suffered from sounds in excess of 85 dB(A) over extended periods of time consistent with normal piano practice.

The reason you might not think your BB is (too) loud may be because of your partial deafness. shocked


I own a 2009 M&H BB and play it in an 18x18x8 foot room. My wife, a singer and pianist, my pianist friends and I can sit in the room while we take turns playing and find the volume level to be just fine. You can play ppp, and you can play fff. The fff playing is probably in excess pf 110 dB on the A weighted scale, so one does not use that level very often - about as often as the composer suggests.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/30/13 03:46 AM

http://www.baua.de/en/Publications/Expert-Papers/Gd10.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=2
Posted by: Mwm

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 03/30/13 08:13 AM



Excellent article. My wife was successful some years ago in getting the university, where she taught, to install sound reduction materials in all the teaching and practice studios. She had complained of excessive sound levels when working there, borrowed my sound level meter, and found she was exposed for six hours a day to levels well in excess of the legal maximum for that length of exposure.
Posted by: HorseMom

Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? - 04/07/13 09:58 PM

Never!