I'm having some trouble making my teacher's suggested fingering work in two passages in my Shostakovich trio.

I won't have a chance to ask her if she had a particular reason for needing it to be one way or another until I see her next, so in the meantime I'm curious to know how other pianists would skin this cat. It's a fast moving movement, so I don't really trust myself and prefer to ask those with the field-tested instincts I wish I had!

I'd hate to slog through a fingering that doesn't feel natural to me, but at the same time, I'd hate to work on it my way only to learn that it would have been better to do it right the first time. When it comes to these kinds of passages, I always do better when I start out the right way rather than relearning it differently once I hit a wall. I guess I could just not do anything with it until I see her next, but I'm making good progress otherwise and would like to keep going!

Thanks in advance for any insight.

First passage:



Second passage:

In the first two measures with the right hand, I would do 3-1-3-2-1-2-3-2-1-3-2-3-5-4 In the left hand 1-2-3-5-3-2- etc That kind of fingering becomes natural once you do arpeggios (practice them today, you won't regret it!)

The rest I was lazy to actually type in the fingering, but:

In the last passage I would probably try to play the whole thing with just my second and third finger (of both hands) because that's simplest. Parts of it could be played legato and might theoretically sound smoother if you did, but anyway an advanced pianist needs to be able to play smoothly with either fingering.

The middle passage is just an arpeggio + thirds, but the thirds are easier to play as legato, so I probably would.

Anyway if you're playing that, you've definitely ended your period as a beginner and now are on the road to virtuoso.

There are only two passages.

Much of what you've suggested doesn't work. To the OP: for the first passage, 4-1-4-2-1-2-4-2-1-4-2-4-5-4-3-1-4-3. For the second passage, definitely don't try to play it all with 23, but always use the most comfortable fingering whenever possible. That doesn't mean you have to connect it. For example, in bars 4-7, I can't see a reason not to use 13-24-35 13-24-35 etc, and the reverse for the LH.

Yeah, it's the desire to connect things which is throwing me.

For the second passage, I guess my hardest issue is how to lead into it, knowing I have to ratchet up the keyboard and land accurately. These things still really throw me and I tend to have a lot of fear of disconnecting from the keyboard. I'm not sure why because I pretty much realized I can learn how to do it quickly and land accurately with the rachmaninoff. I guess hit the top B of the arpeggio with 5, take off and reland 1-3 on B-D# to start the ascending thirds. In the left hand, the lead-in note to the ascending arpeggio is the G#, so maybe 5 on the low G#, then up an octave to (1-3-2-1), take off and land 5-3?

For the first passage, I cannot for the life of me figure out why she suggested 5-4-3-2-1 for the descending portion of the arpeggio. When she did it, it looked reasonable, but it's not feeling secure or comfortable and I have larger hands than she does. I think she can unhinge her hands like a snake does to swallow a mouse or something, lol. I am worried that crossing over (my instinct) would somehow not be kosher here, either from a speed or a phrasing standpoint. But what I WANT to do is (5-3-2-1)-(2-3)-(5-3-2-1)-(2-3)-(5-3-2-1-4-3 etc). The initial crossing over the thumb on the way down seems to work because 2 lands on E# from the thumb on G# rather than E, which would make that more awkward overall, but it is still an odd crossover. However, it gives me a nice triple pattern repeat, and it's is always good when I can reuse a pattern. Your fingering works for me, too, though; it just has more crossovers.

I do my arpeggios, though! I do, I do. Along with scales, chromatics, chords, cadences, etc. This week I'm drilling F# major, for what is probably obvious reasons. Ha.

Crossing over 1-2 from G# to E seems fraught with peril. You would be more prone to hitting wrong notes and it would make the phrasing more difficult to execute reliably. I think in general you should avoid crossing over from a black key to a white one when descending in the right hand. 5-4-3-2-1 is fine if you can manage the C# to G# with 3-2. If you roll your hand a little it makes reaching the G# easier. Perhaps your teacher is introducing new technique?

I haven't played this piece, but what my hand really wanted to do when I tested this out is similar to what you suggested: (5-4-2-1)-(2-3)-(5-3-2-1)-(2-4)

IMO, if you play around a little with using your 4th finger instead of 3rd for 1st & second inversion octave chords or arpeggios like this one, it increases accuracy, since those fingers fit the spacing of those inversions better. This may help you with your E# misaiming.

WTF of course it works, I played them all exactly the way I stated before I wrote anything. What exactly do you think doesn't work and why?

How do you propose to start on 3?

That's how I was going to do it first, but in this case you can do it with crossing your fingers over. In other piano pieces you can't get away with that, you really do need to play something like 5-4-3-2-1 so getting better at that kind of fingering is a good skill to have.


Yay!

Have you actually tried this? Going from 1-4 on the e# to c# is kind of a stretch.

Not if you know how to do it. My question stands.

Your question that you posted in reply to twoSnowflakes lol? How do I go from a 3 on g# to a 1 on e#? Is that hard for you?

I think you just got confused and didn't see the e# in the key signature, because in that case I would absolutely use the fingering you suggested (and it's what I did at first too).

No, how you get a 3 on G# in the first place. You're the one who's confused here, not me.


I'm not an idiot. Thank you.

Hmmm Good question. You always need to consider how to get there. In that case you could do it by using the 1 on the F before. You're going to be using that kind of fingering in the next few measures anyway, so it wouldn't be hard.

Though considering that, I would probably just end up using the 5-4-3-2-1 fingering lol, it just seems easier.

But if I didn't, I would probably end up going 4-1-3-2-1


I didn't say you are an idiot. You chose a fingering that has a jump between e# and c# that is wider than most people can reach.

F? I don't see any F.

I'd rather use the awkward fingering as little as possible, and maintain the uniformity of the sound between the three ascending arpeggios.


Therefore you assumed that I couldn't read key signatures...

It is, and it's also a standard fingering for C# major arpeggio.

On the thirds, I agree with Polyphonist, aim and speed will improve if you use a succession of different fingerings instead of the same one over and over again.

I am confused about the "connecting" comment -- the thirds alternate hands and the notes do not overlap, so unless I am missing something there is no way one could connect one RH note to the next RH note?

About snake unhinging jaw, that just made me laugh, and I have often thought that when people go in and out of big stretches like that, it looks very much like a snake's jaw!

What is the tempo? Maybe I'm weird, but my first instinct is to try 2-4 on all of the thirds (both hands too).

But why?

Interestingly a lot of people described Liszt's hands as being like a great python, stretching.......

The way I look at it, you have two melodies, one in the right hand, one in the left. Even if you don't actually play them connected, thinking of them that way keeps things smooth and clear, but maybe that's just me.

Also probably worth mentioning, the key (IMO) to getting the 5-4-3-2-1 fingering right is coordinating the movement of your palm down the piano along with your fingers

I have small hands, but 5-4-3-2-1 for that passage feels easy and natural to me, maybe because I have flexible wrists (swaying sideways like a....cobra ).

I mean by connecting that I want to have an anchor point to get to where I need to go. I don't mean connecting in terms of phrasing. I have trouble, sometimes, having the confidence to really move where I need to go. It was a lot worse last year when I physically seemed to need to grip the keyboard. My teacher would try to get me to leave the keyboard and I'd claw into it. On some really interesting occasions where I felt out of my element and scared to move, I'd find myself almost gripping the side of a key with a finger, like someone holding onto the threshhold of an airplane for dear life right before a skydive. I've worked hard on gaining flexibility and more freedom of movement so I could go where I need to go. I still fear feeling un-anchored and often look for fingerings that allow me to pivot securely to new places.

I should also be clear, the thirds themselves don't really concern me. Frankly, they seem similar in execution to the alternating triads at the climax of the Rach prelude C# minor. It's the GETTING there. And then getting back.

It's a pretty fast tempo. The marked tempo seems, frankly, unplayable (132 the dotted half note), and I've not heard any performance near that. I feel it works well at around 80-100.

Yeah, haha. I was thinking the same thing, and there you have no choice. You should have no problem with it.

OK. 132 is pretty fast but not impossible. Here's what you do for the thirds. Organize them into groups of 12 13 24 35. For example, the first group will be 12 13 24 35 in right hand and 35 24 13 12 in left hand. Make a crescendo as you go so that your hand is making one U-shaped arc with increasing emphasis (one movement in just under 1 second) instead of 4 separate bounces (4 movements in under 1/4 second each).

In case anyone asks, yes, I tested this with a metronome before posting...

As for getting there and getting back:
Getting back is just a big jump, and it's hard, no tricks will help you there.
Getting there, you have two options that I can see.
If you'd rather avoid a rapid change of hand position, do the G major arpeggio in such a way that the last note is 1, like for example 1241, then you're already in place for 12 on the first third.
If you'd rather avoid a rapid repeated note with the same finger, do what I'd do, 1245 on the G major arpeggio and then scoot over very quickly to 12.
Obviously that's all for RH but the LH has exactly the same issues and same solutions.

Ok, I THINK I've got it.

I found it easiest to do the arpeggios as they would be in g major and c major. Predictable and easy to hit for me. In the right hand coming up the first time, I'm replacing one finger with another on the bottom note of the beginning third, so that's fine, and in the left, same thing. On the second arpeggio, the right hand ends up with thumb on C anyway, so that works, and the left hand has third finger on the top of the starting third, so that works.

The jump is the jump. I'll figure it out.

The thirds I'm fingering as you said.

I'll post a video tomorrow of that and the other passage. I think it's going to work out. It's starting to feel moderately comfortable which means that over time I can work on the tempo.

LOL I'm impressed.

Still, I actually don't much LIKE it at breakneck speed. The recordings I've enjoyed tended to be more moderate. I like it when the movement sounds like a twisted funhouse you can't get out of. The Borodin Trio does a version I really like. Also the Kempf Trio.

But for the most part there's probably a limit to how fast I can go and still be a good chambermate. I'm still just not experienced enough at piano to take too many risks.

Ha, don't be too impressed, I only played a couple measures at a time, it's not like I learned the passage, i.e. what you will be doing !
I have to say I think this piece works well at many tempos, and part of the fun of performing it must be choosing one.