It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.

Posted by: Darn Pianist

It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 01:28 PM

Gays or bisexuals or whatever... in short, they have a different degree in gender issues...I've already proven this myself... in my conservatory, those you suspect to be such are most probably correct...

Well, are there any gays and bisexuals out here?
Posted by: ignorant kid

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 01:46 PM

Not me, but I definately know what you're talking about.

Maybe a better question is: are gays drawn to the piano or does all that piano-playing tend to make some people gay?
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 01:50 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ignorant kid:
Maybe a better question is: are gays drawn to the piano or does all that piano-playing tend to make some people gay? [/b]
Probably the former. (If there really is any correlation.)
Posted by: Darn Pianist

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 01:53 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ignorant kid:
Not me, but I definately know what you're talking about.

Maybe a better question is: are gays drawn to the piano or does all that piano-playing tend to make some people gay? [/b]
hahahahahaha... nice one...
Posted by: ftp

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 01:57 PM

I have no opinion or comment on this topic except to say that straight men who play piano have a tactical advantage in attracting women than non piano playing men.
Posted by: BruceD

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 01:58 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ignorant kid:
Not me, but I definately know what you're talking about.

Maybe a better question is: are gays drawn to the piano or does all that piano-playing tend to make some people gay? [/b]
Most scientific studies on the question tend to reinforce the idea that sexual preference is genetic: one is either gay, bisexual or heterosexual. One cannot be "made" gay, just as gay men and women cannot be "made" straight.

For every gay pianist you can name, I'm sure someone can come up with ten or more who are not, which is about the average.

I fail to see what sexual preference and playing the piano have to do with each other.
Posted by: jmusic_man

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 02:00 PM

ummm... I don't believe that people 'turn gay' by touching piano keys... Perhaps homosexuals are more comfortable with expressing their sensitivity and artistry. You have to be very secure with yourself in order to 'offer yourself' to others through music; it's a very vulnerable position which most 'stereotypical macho males' wouldn't feel comfortable doing. They would rather keep their emotions to themself and watch the game on TV with a beer - cause, that's what 'real' guys do, right?

I'm in a faculty of music at a Canadian university and I can say that the majority of the faculty is very supportive of each other and their artistic endevours, reguardless of sexual orientation. People could care less, this simply isn't an issue. Perhaps this also has something to do with living in a fantastically liberal country that respects everyone's rights reguardless of ethnicity or sexual orientation.
Posted by: Brendan

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 02:08 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by fathertopianist:
I have no opinion or comment on this topic except to say that straight men who play piano have a tactical advantage in attracting women than non piano playing men. [/b]
...because sitting by yourself in a room all day works wonders for your social skills. \:D
Posted by: jmusic_man

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 02:10 PM

haha... :-) that's great...
Posted by: Kreisler

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 02:12 PM

The arts community is generally more accepting of homosexuality than other fields.

I don't think there's anything intrinsically more or less "gay" about musicians, but I do think the field tends to attract a higher percentage of openly gay individuals.

For example, I know homosexual sales managers, travel agents, youth ministers, computer programmers, and, of course, pianists; but only the pianists are openly gay - the rest have had to hide it from their colleagues. (And they're usually frustrated by that and have to look outside their career communities for social support. Many of them find that support in the arts communities.)
Posted by: ignorant kid

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 02:30 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Brendan:
 Quote:
Originally posted by fathertopianist:
I have no opinion or comment on this topic except to say that straight men who play piano have a tactical advantage in attracting women than non piano playing men. [/b]
...because sitting by yourself in a room all day works wonders for your social skills. \:D [/b]
That sounds really funny, but it's painfully true.
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 03:45 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by fathertopianist:
I have no opinion or comment on this topic except to say that straight men who play piano have a tactical advantage in attracting women than non piano playing men. [/b]
So true - - My 81 year old mother ocassionally mentions an old boy friend (one of many since she was a real "Belle.") The first thing she always says about him was "He played the piano."[/b] The second thing was, "He was Italian." The third was "He was a pilot." This paragon went missing in WWII. She married my Dad, who is Irish, was the gunner and flight engineer, and plays nothing but practical jokes, but does like cats.
Posted by: TheAsianPianist

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 04:11 PM

I also understand why people would say that. As most people have said, people who play piano don't turn gay because of piano, but perhaps gain a different awareness of their surroundings.

Music has made me a calmer person, and although I'm not gay I feel that I can be more open to anyone who is musical, whether or not they are gay.

As for the comment about attracting girls, it works :p
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 04:11 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Kreisler:
The arts community is generally more accepting of homosexuality than other fields.

I don't think there's anything intrinsically more or less "gay" about musicians, but I do think the field tends to attract a higher percentage of openly gay individuals.

For example, I know homosexual sales managers, travel agents, youth ministers, computer programmers, and, of course, pianists; but only the pianists are openly gay - the rest have had to hide it from their colleagues. (And they're usually frustrated by that and have to look outside their career communities for social support. Many of them find that support in the arts communities.) [/b]
An example from the past, the Marquis de Custine, a very kind and sensitive individual, was a friend of Chopin and Delacroix and their circle, precisely because the "artists" of Paris accepted him whereas his own social class did not. He had lived as a straight man with a wife, whom he loved, until she died suddenly, I think in childbirth, when Custine was in his 30's. After that he came about half way out of the closet, supposedly propositioned an army officer, and got stripped, beaten up and left for dead beside the road by the officer and some of his buddies. (Sound familiar?) It became the talk of Paris. After that he was all the way "out" and never tried to go back in. Eventually, he was lucky enough to find a permanent partner, an Englishman named Edward with whom he lived for thirty years. Custine became famous for a book of thoughtful and perceptive travel "letters" he wrote from Russia. Custine also wrote a very perceptive letter to Chopin after Chopin's "secret" engagement fell apart, and Chopin quietly fell apart along with it, very delicately offering to lend him a place to stay, or money to go to a spa, in order to deal with his "spiritual" trouble and recover his health. Chopin didn't take him up on it but was touched by his kindness enough to keep the letter. Later Chopin and Delacoix and a couple of other friends did spend a week with him and had a blast playing everything from pool to the piano in the evenings and riding donkeys by day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Custine
Posted by: ChatNoir

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 08:19 PM

Gay pianists? What will they think of next. But if gay men are drawn to the arts, the composers should be even gayer, shouldn't they? We all know that Tchaykowsky was a friend of Dorohty's, but who else? Rumors are that Beethoven and Chopin were gay, and someone also mentioned Grieg one time. Whaddaya think?
(By the way, the info-mobile for gay lifestyles will be in your neighborhood tommorrow morning. It is easily identified by its license plates that read: RU12) \:D
Posted by: Stormcrow

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 08:24 PM

Always always always.
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 08:46 PM

Chopin wasn't gay. He definitely liked women. He might be been bisexual however, as he did appear to have been attracted to one of his male friends as a teenager. There is no indication that he ever experimented. ( He was a good Catholic boy after all. Maybe today who knows?) There is evidence of heterosexual sexual experience, and even of frustration in the case of George Sand. She used the excuse that he was too frail to engage in sex to cut him off when she got tired of him, long before he was willing to concede the same thing.
Posted by: newport

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 08:51 PM

I always wonder what George Sand really looked like? Was she feminine at all, and what made Chopin "fell in love" with her?

Also what happened to the pianist who had a sex change (from male to female)? (I read about it several years ago in New York Times Magazine.)
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 08:56 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by newport:
I always wonder what George Sand really looked like? Was she feminine at all?
[/b]
She wore men's clothing and smoked cigars.
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 09:34 PM

She was short and plump, not beautiful but attractive enough with beautiful black hair and eyes. (Chopin must've been attracted to
brunettes as his once upon a time fiancee had been part Italian and had the same coloring.) Despite her ocassional sartorial eccentricities she was demure in manner and had a soft voice. She definitely showed her feminine side to Chopin. He actually bought cloth for her dresses. He never called her George, but always "Aurora," his version of her given name Aurore, or translated "Dawn" into Polish and called her that. Liszt who knew them both well, wrote that
the thing that bonded them, and ultimately led to their rupture was the fact that (and I paraphrase, Lizst was much more florid) "that Chopin idealized her, and she idealized herself."
Sand herself once said that "what lies between a man and a woman is known only to they themselves." That was said earlier in reference to her affair with Musset but could apply to that with Chopin as well. What drew them together is obscured by the smoke screen George threw up after the break up when everyone was feeling sorry for Chopin and George was trying desperately to put herself in the right. What I do know is that they were both extremely intelligent, and both had a good sense of humor, probably similar. She was quite musical herself and probably a more thoughtful and appreciative critic of his music than most of the nonprofessionals he associated with. He was frail and in need of care, she was strong and in need of someone to care for. It was a case of opposites attracting and finding enough likenesses to stay together for ten years. She liked him well enough to keep him around even after she had tired of him as a lover. He loved her enough to stay around on any terms she might dictate.




Posted by: newport

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 10:11 PM

If I live in that age and time, maybe I can also convince myself that I "fell in love" with George Sand :-) ...
Posted by: ignorant kid

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 10:17 PM

I'm hearin about all these gay pianists...where are all the lesbians???
Posted by: John Delmore

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 10:36 PM

Oh my God! Perhaps starting to play the piano in third grade turned me gay! Maybe I should sue Steinway! Anybody know a good lawyer?
Posted by: BassoonyPianoKevn

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 11:42 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by John Delmore:
Oh my God! Perhaps starting to play the piano in third grade turned me gay! Maybe I should sue Steinway! Anybody know a good lawyer? [/b]
Ha. Your sounding like the overweight people who sued the fast food chains for making them fat because they decided to eat there.
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 11:50 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ignorant kid:
I'm hearin about all these gay pianists...where are all the lesbians??? [/b]
what is it with guys and lesbians? i'm sure there were/are some lesbian pianists out there.
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/15/05 11:53 PM

lol
 Quote:
Originally posted by John Delmore:
Oh my God! Perhaps starting to play the piano in third grade turned me gay! Maybe I should sue Steinway! Anybody know a good lawyer? [/b]
ah, yes. The American answer to everything... :rolleyes: :p
Posted by: Palindrome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 12:58 AM

To a large extent, this is a cultural problem ("problem" in the intellectual sense, of "something to puzzle out or solve.") Western males, or more particularly Americans, tend to be less concerned with the arts and less aesthetically sensitive than others. Educated Japanese males, for instance, are far more sensitive to aesthetic qualities in their music, graphic arts, pottery, etc., things many American males would not admit to responding to, even if they might want to.

Example: I'm a pathologist. My cousin Juel* asked me once, "When you're cutting up a brain, do you ever wonder about all the thoughts it had, the feelings it experienced?" "Nope."

But then I thought to myself, "Of course you do, you just don't talk about it." I suppose one might regard this is some kind of cultural straitjacket. I'd respond to that with, "And what good would talking about it do?"

*World-renowned author of numerous cookbooks on tofu, tempeh, carob, seaweed, and other minimally edible foodstuffs.
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 05:26 AM

 Quote:
Example: I'm a pathologist. My cousin Juel* asked me once, "When you're cutting up a brain, do you ever wonder about all the thoughts it had, the feelings it experienced?" "Nope."

But then I thought to myself, "Of course you do, you just don't talk about it." I suppose one might regard this is some kind of cultural straitjacket. I'd respond to that with, "And what good would talking about it do?"
So my brooding, taciturn black Irish Dad, the one time gunner, stevedore, land surveyor, and engineer grows more than fifty varieties of camillias even though he is color blind, just because he likes the shapes.

I've been around plenty of pathologists when they were grossing. The female one ARE far more likely to talk about the thoughts of a brain than the male ones. The male ones are more likely to joke.
Posted by: John Citron

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 12:19 PM

I think that artists and musicians care more about their art then they do someones sexual preference. The fine arts and music are very emotional, and take much of someone's soul to bring out. Therefore, there is more focus on the beauty of the arts rather than the other aspects of life.

The reason why I say this is that both of my parents went to art school, and a number of their friends are openly gay. They are accepted as friends just like other so-called straight people.

I was brought up to accept them as people, and what they can do as artists, rather than whom they sleep with.

To sum it up, who cares.

John
Posted by: ChatNoir

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 02:02 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by John Citron:


To sum it up, who cares.

[/b]
So true. As good old Rhett Butler said before most of you were born: "Frankly, my dear,........
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 02:25 PM

well said. i don't care, but i'm sure there are a lot of gay construction workers. just saying that not all gays are "feminine" and "artsy". my cousin's a butcher, and his partner was in the marines until his commanding officer found out he was gay. they feared for his safety, so he left the job he loved because people only saw him as gay. they didn't see him as a man who had gone to Iraq, willing to sacrifice his life for his country. his "commrades" only saw him as a threat. when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter who one sleeps with.
Posted by: TheloniousPunk

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 06:13 PM

So this is why I've been feeling all gay lately. I thought I was absorbing it from Burger King commercials.
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 06:46 PM

"musicians who are male"?? Does this include rock, blues, and jazz musicians too?

wow, sex with all those hot groupie girls must sure be a tiring front to keep up.
Posted by: valarking

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 07:06 PM

I go to a performing arts high school and we have so many gay people that you would not believe it...
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 07:42 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LWpianistin:
when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter who one sleeps with. [/b]
it shouldn't[/b] matter, but I believe it does[/b] matter to all too many people. And for a variety of dubious reasons.
Posted by: MMSGA

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 09:11 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Darn Pianist:
Gays or bisexuals or whatever... in short, they have a different degree in gender issues...I've already proven this myself... in my conservatory, those you suspect to be such are most probably correct...

Well, are there any gays and bisexuals out here? [/b]
I was wondering if you were hoping to hook up with people on here? \:\) Are you 'gay', 'bi', 'straight'?...

Ironically, as I type this, the radio is playing 'YMCA'... ha ha

I know of one guitar teacher at a prestigious NYC school who is a sister of Dorothy. She's very well known in the guitar world.. \:\)

A lot of pianists I've met have been gay, but as most have said here, it isn't an issue. It would be a HUGE problem in my field, (Finance), but 'the arts' embraces it wholeheartedly...
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 09:20 PM

I often wonder how many people have libraries of books lining their walls with opinions on all, but having never opened nor read any, basing their opinions on the cover of each.

Coincidentally, I think it is precisely because there is a larger density of gay/bi-sexualism in the 'arts' fields that results in a greater acceptance of such a disposition (being neither right nor wrong, good nor evil), whereas the same cannot be said of most other fields. It would make for an interesting study, but I'm not sure how much conclusive evidence one could unearth.

And I had to laugh at this observation:
 Quote:
Ironically, as I type this, the radio is playing 'YMCA'... ha ha
:p ;\)
Posted by: MMSGA

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 09:30 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
I often wonder how many people have libraries of books lining their walls with opinions on all, but having never opened nor read any, basing their opinions on the cover of each.

Coincidentally, I think it is precisely because there is a larger density of gay/bi-sexualism in the 'arts' fields that results in a greater acceptance of such a disposition (being neither right nor wrong, good nor evil), whereas the same cannot be said of most other fields. It would make for an interesting study, but I'm not sure how much conclusive evidence one could unearth.

And I had to laugh at this observation:
 Quote:
Ironically, as I type this, the radio is playing 'YMCA'... ha ha
:p ;\) [/b]
I TOTALLY agree - book covers are SO misleading.

A study would be interesting, but it would be fraught in difficulties. It would be a variation on the, 'did having gay parents/siblings make me gay?' etc etc ...
Posted by: boomerpizza

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 10:37 PM

Did anyone brought up the horowitz quote yet?
Something like all great pianists are either jewish or gay. All of the heteros better start convertin. (or become gay)
Posted by: Bernard

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 10:41 PM

I am and I'm quite sure it wasn't the piano that caused it.

I'm in the prepress business and there have always been a number of openly gay people where I work (graphic designers, typesetters, etc.).
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 11:51 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by boomerpizza:
Did anyone brought up the horowitz quote yet?
Something like all great pianists are either jewish or gay. All of the heteros better start convertin. (or become gay) [/b]
"There are three kinds of pianists: Jewish pianists, homosexual pianists, and bad pianists."

(Horowitz was two of the three.)
Posted by: PianoBeast10489

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/16/05 11:56 PM

I know it probobly must seem that many gay people play the piano, but I'm not gay and I play the piano! I could name at least 20 other people I know who are definately not gay who play the piano. I truly only have met one or two gay pianists.... unless everyone isn't being truthful.....
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/17/05 12:03 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
 Quote:
Originally posted by boomerpizza:
Did anyone brought up the horowitz quote yet?
Something like all great pianists are either jewish or gay. All of the heteros better start convertin. (or become gay) [/b]
"There are three kinds of pianists: Jewish pianists, homosexual pianists, and bad pianists."

(Horowitz was two of the three.) [/b]
Where does LISZT fit into this picture?
Posted by: twitchy

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/17/05 04:31 AM

 Quote:
I could name at least 20 other people I know who are definately not gay who play the piano
My brother gave up piano lessons after about 5 weeks and he's gay. I still play now after 15 years or so and everyone thinks I'm gay. There's an irony in there somewhere I'm sure.

Oh, how come no-one mentioned the genius of Liberace in a gay pianist thread?

Posted by: Ronel Augustyn

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/17/05 08:43 AM

To reply to the whole LESBIAN question a few posts ago....

I think there's a LOT more gay pianists than lesbian pianists. In South Africa, I haven't met or heard of one lesbian pianist, but have had my share of gay pianists.

But I don't know whether there's any connection between the two, but personally, I really hope not, coz my future perfect husband must also be a pianist!

Hi from South Africa
Posted by: jpw101

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/17/05 11:42 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ronel Augustyn:

...but have had my share of gay pianists.

[/b]
Posted by: pianno

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/17/05 01:20 PM

I wouldn't say that a lot of classical pianists have a tendency to be gay. Disco pianists on the other hand...
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/17/05 01:25 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Ronel Augustyn:
To reply to the whole LESBIAN question a few posts ago....

I think there's a LOT more gay pianists than lesbian pianists. In South Africa, I haven't met or heard of one lesbian pianist, but have had my share of gay pianists.

But I don't know whether there's any connection between the two, but personally, I really hope not, coz my future perfect husband must also be a pianist!

Hi from South Africa [/b]
Do you think that there are a lot more male pianists than female pianists in South Africa?
Posted by: John Citron

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/17/05 05:21 PM

This thread is getting absurd, but you might find this interesting.

My work career has been varied, and outside of my interest in music. I've worked in factories, field service, computer rooms, etc., over the many years of employment. I noticed that as the education goes up, for the most part, the tolerance level of others goes up as well.

As a PC-board solderer, I worked with, well let's put it, a rough crowd. There was never any Classical music on the radio, and the biggest thing to do was to get drunk on Friday to Sunday.

To give you a picture of the environment, the women walked around with cigarette packs tucked under their sleeves, and had the butts stuck to their lower lip with an ash that was the length of the cigarette. The men wore overalls, and had tattoos up and down their arms, and mostly had a beer or more for lunch. The scary part is the women had deeper voices then the men in many cases.

Anyway, at one point, someone who knew I was studying music, asked me if all Classical composers were gay! Huh? What!!? I've never heard that before!

I probed deeper, and through the rather ignorant conversation with the and duffs like dat, and ya know dat duff. I got the impression that it's because the music sounds gay compared to rock music.

Hmmm... I though deeply before I spoke. I said that maybe some where gay, but not all of them. Bach had 8 children, Mozart had a family, Schubert died from syphillis caught on his birthday, and Robert Schumann married Clara Wiek. The other macho-man looked at me in amazement, and didn't say anything.

There was an openly gay man working there. He was picked on with some pretty low-life insults that would make anyone's stomach churn. He took it on the chin, and gave a few back. We used to talk at lunch, and one day my supervisor spoke with me because that gave people a bad impression about me. Now, granted this was twenty-five years ago, and today these types of actions wouldn't be tolerated in the workplace, including the discussion with my supervisor, but these thing happened did then and were taken for granted.

There were others there too that were suspected of being gay, and people would make comments even though these people claimed they weren't. These people acted so macho that it was sickening.

Now from the eyes of a casual observer, what does this prove? It proves that there maybe no more gay people in the performing and visual arts than in other occupations, it's just as we've said before that the people in the arts are more comfortable with themselves, and therefore, act like themselves rather than to hold everything in.

John
Posted by: pianodevo

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/17/05 05:54 PM

One of my former piano teachers -- a woman and also a personal friend -- told me that during her four years at Juillard, she found it difficult to find other students there who were male and not[/b] gay. Probably she was referring mostly to pianists.
Posted by: Steve Chandler

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/17/05 06:02 PM

Hey John,

Correction, Bach had 20 children,... the joke is because his organ didn't have any stops.
Posted by: Rick

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/17/05 06:06 PM

Bruce said:
 Quote:
Most scientific studies on the question tend to reinforce the idea that sexual preference is genetic: one is either gay, bisexual or heterosexual. One cannot be "made" gay, just as gay men and women cannot be "made" straight.

For every gay pianist you can name, I'm sure someone can come up with ten or more who are not, which is about the average.

I fail to see what sexual preference and playing the piano have to do with each other.
While I neither agree nor disagree with your scientific study assertion (as I just don't know), it seems (if true) to subtly contradict your final statement don't you think? That is to say, your last statement implies that the fact of one's being gay brings no other genetic qualities along with it! It seems that if one were to truly believe that being gay is mostly genetic, then they would have to also believe that the same set of genes might produce a person who liked certain things (or does certain things) more than others might. So you're not allowing the piano-playing affinity quality (for lack of a better term) to be genetic (and related to an alleged gay gene). Surely if homosexuality is genetic, then it would show up in a variety of characteristics in a person. And perhaps it does. I was a little thrown by your logic there, so take this for whatever it's worth.

Rick
Posted by: pno

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/17/05 08:10 PM

Are pianists who are female suspected to be lesbians too? I think they are! Did you also notice that most of these female pianists especially those playing in the chopin competition have no armpit hair too? So I think they must have been genetically modified.
Posted by: John Citron

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/17/05 09:58 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Chandler:
Hey John,

Correction, Bach had 20 children,... the joke is because his organ didn't have any stops. [/b]
Good one Steve! \:D
Posted by: Beethovenite

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/18/05 12:13 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by John Citron:
I think that artists and musicians care more about their art then they do someones sexual preference. The fine arts and music are very emotional, and take much of someone's soul to bring out. Therefore, there is more focus on the beauty of the arts rather than the other aspects of life.

The reason why I say this is that both of my parents went to art school, and a number of their friends are openly gay. They are accepted as friends just like other so-called straight people.

I was brought up to accept them as people, and what they can do as artists, rather than whom they sleep with.

To sum it up, who cares.

John [/b]
Well said sir. What you just said applys directly with the way I am. I am straight, but I'm constantly consumed by the music... not women.
Posted by: Beethovenite

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/18/05 05:00 AM

not ALWAYS though... \:D

sometimes, a nice distraction is a GOOD thing.
Posted by: BJenkins

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/18/05 09:15 AM

I havn't found that there are an unusual amount of gay pianists, but I have found, at least at my school, that literally the majority of male tenor's are gay. I don't know if my university is just unusually gay, but 50%+ is definately a close aproximation.
Posted by: pianistcomposer

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/18/05 03:08 PM

Hi, folks. It's been a while, but I just had to post on this one. "Suspected to be gay" (subject-line)? Almost always, especially in school. I remember being suspected of being gay even before I realized I *was* gay. (Boy, was *that* disconcerting!) And I'm fairly certain that one is not "made" gay. But don't quote me. Anyway, I agree with John - fundamentally, it doesn't matter, at least not to anyone else but you and the person/persons with whom you are intimate. Let the others guess!

Ciao...
Posted by: PianoMajor@MSU

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/19/05 01:05 AM

There are 8 male piano majors in my university including me and 3 of them are definitely gay. A few guys I'm not too sure about.

I am 100% straight and have never been suspected of being gay. I'd have to say that a bigger percentage of voice majors are gay in my university than pianists. Come to think of it, almost all of the voice majors are homosexual in my school.

NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE HERE but I'm not one to hangout with homosexuals. My guy friends are and have always been attracted to girls. I guess you can say I'm homophobic.

But when it comes to playing the piano, I am not shy about expressing my feelings. Who cares what anybody thinks!
Posted by: Ronel Augustyn

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/19/05 04:19 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jpw101:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ronel Augustyn:

...but have had my share of gay pianists.

[/b]
[/b]
Not in THAT way man, then they'd be BI-sexual not homosexual! But you know that story about gay guys having lots of girl-friends, well that's true, and I've been in that boat.
Posted by: Ronel Augustyn

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/19/05 04:25 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
[QUOTE] Do you think that there are a lot more male pianists than female pianists in South Africa? [/b]
Maybe a little bit, say the ratio is 60/40. But still I can't even picture a lesbian pianist. the funny thing is, I think there's more lesbians studying art here - maybe that's where threy're all hiding!

Hi from South Africa
Posted by: btb

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/19/05 07:07 AM

My upbringing taught me to hate queers, blacks, Nazis, Moslems, Israelis, Iraqis - that's why I am now poor, disadvantaged, hungry and friendless.

What a way to go!!

But then only a bigot would find time to dwell on the misfortune of others. Don't squander the miraculous camaraderie of piano music.
Time to get real folks!!
Posted by: Monica K.

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/19/05 12:50 PM

As I was reading this thread, it struck me that this really is an empirical question, so I got to wondering what the psych literature had to say about it. I did a PsycINFO search crossing the term "sexual orientation" with "music*" (nothing showed up when I made it specific to "pianists"), and I found only one relevant citation. The finding of greatest interest for this thread is embedded halfway through the abstract, where they report finding no relation between sexual orientation and "higher innate creativity through greater amateur production of art."

Full abstract:

DT: Peer-Reviewed-Journal AU: Lewis,-Gregory-B; Seaman,-Bruce-A TI: Sexual Orientation and Demand for the Arts. SO: Social-Science-Quarterly. Sep 2004; Vol 85 (3): 523-538 IS: 0038-4941 (Print) AB: (from the journal abstract) Objective: We establish and try to explain a gay affinity for the arts. Methods: Using logit analysis on the General Social Survey, we test whether demographics, creativity, gender nonconformity, and sexual repression can explain differences between lesbians, gay men, and bisexuals (LGBs) and others in attendance at art museums, classical music concerts, and dance performances. Results: LGBs' higher education and probability of being childless city-dwellers explain one-third of the substantial attendance differences. However, LGBs do not demonstrate higher innate creativity through greater amateur production of art; gay men's affinity for the arts appears no stronger than lesbians', casting doubt on the gender nonconformity explanation; and LGB-straight attendance differences are as large among young as older respondents, despite supposed declines in the special functions of arts attendance since gay liberation. Conclusions: LGBs are much more likely to attend the arts than demographically similar heterosexuals, but we find little support for three conventional explanations.
Posted by: Hank Drake

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/19/05 07:45 PM

I've heard that Vladimir Horowitz commented that there were three kinds of pianists: Jewish, homosexual, and bad.
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/19/05 09:05 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Drake:
I've heard that Vladimir Horowitz commented that there were three kinds of pianists: Jewish, homosexual, and bad. [/b]
Yup:

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
 Quote:
Originally posted by boomerpizza:
Did anyone brought up the horowitz quote yet?
Something like all great pianists are either jewish or gay. All of the heteros better start convertin. (or become gay) [/b]
"There are three kinds of pianists: Jewish pianists, homosexual pianists, and bad pianists."

(Horowitz was two of the three.) [/b]
Posted by: Bassio

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 12:06 AM

Out of topic:
But most jewish pianists are really good pianists.

There are so many:
horowitz, friedman, rubinstein, ashkenazy

What is the secret?
Posted by: WCSMinorCircuit

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 12:26 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bassio:
Out of topic:
But most jewish pianists are really good pianists.

There are so many:
horowitz, friedman, rubinstein, ashkenazy

What is the secret? [/b]
Ashkenzy was Jewish? Wow. I could have sworn he was Russian. From which more pianists would have emerged from.
Posted by: ChatNoir

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 12:28 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bassio:
Out of topic:
But most jewish pianists are really good pianists.

There are so many:
horowitz, friedman, rubinstein, ashkenazy

What is the secret? [/b]
Practice, young man, practice!
Posted by: CCM Stephen

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 12:31 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by JosephS.:
Ashkenzy was Jewish? Wow. I could have sworn he was Russian. From which more pianists would have emerged from. [/QB]
Why are Russian and Jewish mutually exclusive?
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 03:45 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by CCM Stephen:
 Quote:
Originally posted by JosephS.:
Ashkenzy was Jewish? Wow. I could have sworn he was Russian. From which more pianists would have emerged from. [/b]
Why are Russian and Jewish mutually exclusive? [/QB]
It may not be a logical distinction to Westerners but in the Russian mind being Jewish and Russian are mutually exclusive. Being Jewish is regarded as being more of a nationality or ethnic group than a religion. Russians (Slavs from Russia proper) regard themselves as an ethnic group separate from Ukrainians, Cossacks, Tadjiks, etc. though in the West we lump them all together as Russians (at least before the Soviet Union collapsed.) It's not uncommon to hear someone had "a Russian father and a Jewish mother," the same way we might say, "A Russian father and a German mother." My good friend is an elderly pathologist from Ekaterinburg (Ural mountains) who is of course very highly educated. In conversation she frequently makes this distinction between Russians and whomever and thinks Americans are a bit ignorant for not making it.
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 04:35 AM

 Quote:
Why are Russian and Jewish mutually exclusive?
They're not, necessarily.

Being Jewish and being Israeli are not the same thing. There is no "Jew" country for people to be "Jewish" from.

A person is Jewish the same as they are Christian or Muslim (using the three most common).

A person is Russian as they are Israeli as they are Iraqi, Indian, French, German, Spanish, or American.

That is the proper distinction.

It took my roommate dating a Russian Jew (whom I thought must have been the only one in the world), and then ending up dating one myself two years later to find out that there was a Jewish community in Russia. (I always suspected there should have been, especially after WW2 with all the Jews who probably fled across the border...but could never prove it until I dated one. ;\) )
Posted by: piqué

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 09:59 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bassio:
Out of topic:
But most jewish pianists are really good pianists.

There are so many:
horowitz, friedman, rubinstein, ashkenazy

What is the secret? [/b]
that's why we are called "the chosen people." ;\)
Posted by: piqué

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 10:04 AM

my family is jewish and from russia. my grandfather emigrated to the u.s. long before WWI, let alone WWII. there have been jews in russia for a very long time, as there have been everywhere.

there are lots of russian jewish musicians, music is a very big part of jewish culture. "ashkenazy" actually means "eastern european jew" which includes russia. my own family are ashkenazy.
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 11:13 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bassio:
Out of topic:
But most jewish pianists are really good pianists.

[/b]
?!?!?!?!

I'm guessing we probably just havent heard of the really bad ones or mediocre ones.
Posted by: swingal

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 12:11 PM

I'm reluctant to enter this rather silly debate.

And I can only speak for the jazz pianists I have known and my own view on this supposed connection to the homosexual tendancies.

Rumour is not really worth considering so unless anyone can quote any pure statistics, I for one cannot comment much.

I do think that a musician on any instrument except drums maybe has to have a sensitivity with his fingers and or his lips. This art of music is of course a mostly a non violent means of spreading vibrations to the air and the ears of the listeners. I fail to see how some gentle playing of certain piano music could really turn a man gay.

I have noticed that there are far more women that idolise and follow the male pianists and they have often stated what a sexy attraction they have for the pianist.

Just look how the women flocked around Fats Waller? Or Oscar Peterson and so on.

So unless we suggest that if a man is sensitive he is usually gay, which I find a very bad suggestion, then we should not debate this too much.IMHO

Alan
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 02:09 PM

 Quote:
So unless we suggest that if a man is sensitive he is usually gay, which I find a very bad suggestion, then we should not debate this too much.
But haven't you ever heard the joke?

"I wish I could find a good man," one woman says to another. "One who's kind, smart, funny, and sensitive."
"They don't exist," the woman replies.
"Oh, but they do," says the first. "The trouble is, they've already got a man." :p ;\)
Posted by: Hank Drake

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 02:54 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bassio:
Out of topic:
But most jewish pianists are really good pianists.

There are so many:
horowitz, friedman, rubinstein, ashkenazy

What is the secret? [/b]
For Jewish pianists, I'm not sure. But Itzak Perlman has stated that the reason for so many great Jewish violinists is that "the fingers are circumcised, which is great for dexterity--especially in the pinkie."
Posted by: John Citron

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 05:17 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:
my family is jewish and from russia. my grandfather emigrated to the u.s. long before WWI, let alone WWII. there have been jews in russia for a very long time, as there have been everywhere.

there are lots of russian jewish musicians, music is a very big part of jewish culture. "ashkenazy" actually means "eastern european jew" which includes russia. my own family are ashkenazy. [/b]
I have a similar background on my dad's side. His grandmother came from the Ukraine in 1898 and his grandfather came from Russia in 1901. The rest of the Kooperstocks and Citrons came over between 1912 and 1917, although there may have been others that didn't migrate. The ones that did make it over, settled in Saugus, MA, New York, and New Jersey.

We've been able to trace the family back to villages in Poland, Ukraine, Belarussia, and Russia.

His mother's family, the Kelners, Israels, and Desners came over in the 1850's and 1860's from Russia, and settled in Brooklyn. My great great uncle was a land developer that made a lot of money when the bridge was opened up.

From what I found out, many of the Kooperstocks were musicians, and there's a possibility I am related to Andrew Kooperstock the concert pianist.

John
Posted by: MMSGA

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 07:17 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by swingal:

I have noticed that there are far more women that idolise and follow the male pianists and they have often stated what a sexy attraction they have for the pianist.
Alan [/b]
This reminded me of a very well known concert pianist who had a very strong 'blue rinse brigade' following.
However, when he admitted to being on the other side of the fence, his blue-filter lenses were no longer needed...
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 08:28 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Drake:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bassio:
Out of topic:
But most jewish pianists are really good pianists.

There are so many:
horowitz, friedman, rubinstein, ashkenazy

What is the secret? [/b]
For Jewish pianists, I'm not sure. But Itzak Perlman has stated that the reason for so many great Jewish violinists is that "the fingers are circumcised, which is great for dexterity--especially in the pinkie." [/b]
:D
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 08:39 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
A person is Jewish the same as they are Christian or Muslim (using the three most common).
[/b]
Eh... no, not really.

It's much more that that. (kind of hard to explain)


In regards to Ashkenazy: his father was Jewish (obviously - what a name!) but his mother was not Jewish.


Here's a list of famous Jewish pianists (since someone asked about Jewish pianists - I bolded some of the big ones):

Charles Alkan
Vladimir Ashkenazy[/b]
Emanuel Ax[/b]
Victor Babin
Gina Bachauer
Dmitri Bashkirov
Daniel Barenboim[/b]
Simon Barere
Boris Berman
Lazar Berman[/b]
Victor Borge[/b]
Alexander Borovsky[/b]
Alexander Brailowsky
Yefim Bronfman[/b]
Ignaz Bruell
Shura Cherkassky[/b]
Harriet Cohen
Bella Davidovich
Misha Dichter[/b]
Samuil Feinberg[/b]
Vladimir Feltsman[/b]
Annie Fischer
Leon Fleisher[/b]
Yakov Flier
Claude Frank[/b]
Ignaz Friedman[/b]
Emil Gilels[/b]
Grigory Ginsburg
Leopold Godowsky[/b]
Alexander Goldenweiser
Richard Goode[/b]
Gary Graffman[/b]
Mark Hambourg
Clara Haskil
Myra Hess[/b]
Vladimir Horovitz[/b]
Eugene Istomin
Byron Janis[/b]
Joseph Kalichstein
William Kapell[/b]
Julius Katchen[/b]
Mindru Katz
Louis Kentner
Evgeny Kissin[/b]
Vladimir Krainev[/b]
Lili Kraus[/b]
Wanda Landowska
Ruth Laredo[/b]
Josef Lhvinne[/b]
Rosina Lhvinne[/b]
Radu Lupu[/b]
Hephzibah Menuhin
Benno Moiseiwitsch
Ignaz Moscheles
Murray Perahia[/b]
Menahem Pressler
Andr Previn[/b]
Michael Roll
Moritz Rosenthal
Anton Rubinstein[/b]
Artur Rubinstein[/b]
Nikolai Rubinstein
Harold Samuel
Andrs Schiff[/b]
Artur Schnabel[/b]
Peter Serkin
Rudolf Serkin[/b]
Abbey Simon
Solomon (Cutner)[/b]
Wladyslaw Szpilman
Mark Taimanov
Carl Tausig[/b]
Sigmund Thalberg[/b]
Rosalyn Tureck[/b]
Isabella Vengerova
Alexis Weissenberg[/b]
Paul Wittgenstein[/b]
Maria Yudina

http://www.jinfo.org/Pianists.html
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 08:46 PM

Geezus H Kryst!! (er..sorry), are there ANY pianists that arent jewish?!?!
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 08:50 PM

Oh, of course. ;\)

Sviatoslav Richter
Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli
Glenn Gould
Earl Wild
Georges Cziffra
Claudio Arrau
...


But yes, there are lots of Jews in music (go to that website I posted for a list of conductors, violinists, cellists...). Quite remarkable, considering the relative tinyness of our population.
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 09:05 PM

Wow Sam - you really did your homework!

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
A person is Jewish the same as they are Christian or Muslim (using the three most common).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eh... no, not really.

It's much more that that. (kind of hard to explain)
I think I know what you mean. I'm not Jewish but I remember a conversation I had with a Jewish friend years ago. We were talking about the Messiah, and he said something along the lines of "maybe Jesus was and we missed the boat." I asked him if he thought that why didn't he convert. He said, "Because I'm Jewish."[/b] It was the way he said it, like it was something totally immutable, more than a belief or an identify, more like the very life and substance of his flesh and bones.
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 09:13 PM

 Quote:
Eh... no, not really.

It's much more that that. (kind of hard to explain)
Actually, the "it's more than that" idea is far more recent than most people would think. And I bet, with some insight and a bit of 20th century historical knowledge, just about anyone can figure out where the change came from.

In fact, ever since the ancient kingdom of Judah was no more, the terms "Jewish" referring to an inhabitant/descendant of Judah, and "Jewish" referring to followers of the religion, have been confused. It was furthered in the Old Testament, and now is also compounded with the wonderful trouble of being Hebrew. Somewhere, "Jew" and "Hebrew" became one and the same. The latter is a person belonging to the worldwide group claiming descent from Jacob. The former are converts, which is a religious implication, and not a genetically-traceable nationality/ethnicity. Yet still, these people claim it for whatever personal reasons...to "belong to the group" most-likely.

Now, there is great confusion as to who is a Jew, who is Hebrew, and who is an Israelite, and they have all, sadly, become one and the same. But the DO NOT share the same exact lineage. This wonderful collage of peoples lumped together into one mosaic occured during the Captivity and Restoration.

More recently, all of this history was lost because of the events of World War II, and now anybody who ever visited a brother of a sister of an uncle who lived within 300 miles of Israel, Germany, or the land between can and will often claim Jewish descent.

But there is STILL a distinction between the religious practice and being descended from those original peoples from Judah. This is why, when someone tells me they're "Jewish", I often will ask if they mean their religion or their descent. Because there is such thing as a Catholic Jew (where Jew is ancestrally used), the same as there is a Russian Jew (where Jew is primarily religiously used). Of course, there's also the Russian Catholic Jew (which, of course, ignores the schism in the church, but more importantly, where Russian and Jew claim ancestry and Catholic describes the religion).

So, yes, it is fairly complicated thanks to modern (and not-so-modern) history, but in its pure form, it is as I described. ;\)
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 09:21 PM

Derulux, when most people talk about "Jews" they aren't talking about Christians who descend from Judah. ;\)


When someone talks about "Jewish pianists", for example - you know what they mean by "Jewish."

But defining what it means to be Jewish - in the sense of the Jewish people (not just anybody who happens to descend from Judah) is very complicated - you're right. It's not just a religion. It's a people. A nation. A culture. A Jew who leads his life strictly according to the Torah is just as "Jewish" as a Jew who does not practice at all. A Jew from China is just as Jewish as a Jew from the United States. A black Jew is just as Jewish as a white Jew. A person who converts to Judaism is just as "Jewish" as a Jew who is a direct descendent of the Temple Priests.

It's an identity. It's a people. Well, there aren't really such good words to describe it. But it's definately more than just a religion.
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 09:33 PM

I'll concede that, basically, we're saying the same thing...except for the phrase 'a nation'. If you could point to the Jewish 'nation' on a map, I'd quit playing the piano for life. (Unless you pulled out a map that had Judah on it, and pointed to that. :p ) Nation, as used in describing someone's nationality, is not applicable in the sense of the Jewish community, because they have not had a nation since Judah. The closest thing they have is Israel, but then, those people are Israeli by nationality (not to be confused with Israelites).

This is why it is entirely possible to be a Russian Jew (and not simply Jewish). A person who lives in Russia is Russian by nationality. They might be African by ethnicity. And they can still be Jewish by religion--which unfortunately lumps them in the Jew community, in that the certain assumptions society makes based on the words "Jew" or "Jewish" are entirely inaccurate.

That's why I make the distinction when I'm talking to someone...and half the time, the person I'm talking to doesn't even know the answer. I say "Judah" and people stare at me like I said, "Aliens landed in my back yard."

The term has been grossly misused throughout history, and, unfortunately, even though it's popular, societal uses are generally incorrect. ;\)
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 09:40 PM

Yes, it is definately possible to be a Russian Jew, or an American Jew, etc.

When Judaism is referred to as a "nation", it's not exactly like Canada or Israel or Poland...

It's because it's so hard to explain what Judaism is that we use all of these words like "nation", "people", "culture", "tradition", "identity", "religion", etc. But none of those words are perfect descriptors, and they don't always mean what you think they might mean.

Even "religion" isn't a perfect descriptor, because a Jew who lives his life "according to the Torah" is just as Jewish as a Jew who doesn't practice.

"Culture" and "Tradition" aren't quite perfect, because Chinese Jews have a different culture than Ethiopian Jews.

"Nation" isn't quite perfect, because most people tend to think of 'nation' as a geographic location, and this Judaism is not. It's a nation in the sense of being a people, and being born into the religion... for example, you are American if you are born in America, regardless of how you view yourself and America. If you don't want to be American, you can emigrate... you are still technically American, as you were born in America, but you can emigrate and "leave" the American nation. If you are not born in America, you are not American, regardless of how "American" you might seem. If you immigrate to the U.S., though, then you are an American. It's kind of the same way with Judaism, thought not exactly identical. It's not a perfect descriptor, but it does in part help explain what it means to be Jewish. But Judaism is so complex - it's hard to come up with a list of words that perfectly explain it.
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 09:45 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
That's why I make the distinction when I'm talking to someone...and half the time, the person I'm talking to doesn't even know the answer. I say "Judah" and people stare at me like I said, "Aliens landed in my back yard."

The term has been grossly misused throughout history, and, unfortunately, even though it's popular, societal uses are generally incorrect. ;\) [/b]
No, you[/b] use it incorrectly. ;\)

You're using an archaic term. Today, the Jews are members of Judaism - of the "Jewish" people. Not just any descendent of Judah.

You're right - the term has changed over time. It has changed... (or rather, one definition - that of Judaism as a people - has remained and evolved, and the other definition - any descendent of Judah - has become archaic) and that's a great reason why most people you talk with don't know what you're talking about when you ask what they mean by "Jew." You know what they mean by "Jew" (well, not entirely I suppose - but you know what they are referring to), and to ask them if they are just a "descendent of Judah" is simply showing off your historical knowledge of the evolution of the word "Jew."
Posted by: IrateHamster

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/20/05 11:17 PM

Well, to answer the OP's call for actual empirical responses for his personal study: I'm bisexual, leaning towards gay. It's impossible to tell my orientation from the way I look or act (except, of course, for the fact that I play the piano ;\) ).

Btw, all the posts that begin "I'm not gay" remind me of the Seinfeld quote: "Not that there's anything wrong with that!"
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 12:46 AM

 Quote:
You know what they mean by "Jew" (well, not entirely I suppose - but you know what they are referring to), and to ask them if they are just a "descendent of Judah" is simply showing off your historical knowledge of the evolution of the word "Jew."
No, you see...that's precisely it. It is because I know the many referrals of "Jew" that I ask the question. It is not "showing off" as you put it, but rather, a desire to know exactly what a person means when they say "Jew", because, by and large, it is an abused word.

I equate it to verbalization. Over time, incorrect use has become accepted use, and accepted use has become correct use, but in formal diction, even that is unacceptable. So many former nouns in the English language have become verbs that their governance has grown slack because the uninformed majority cannot fathom the proper use of a word. So it goes with "Jew", so rather than assume someone purely means religious connotation, or purely means ancestral descent, or purely means culturally, or any combination thereof, I take it upon myself to ask precisely because I do not like to infer.
Posted by: piqué

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 12:52 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by John Citron:
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:
my family is jewish and from russia. my grandfather emigrated to the u.s. long before WWI, let alone WWII. there have been jews in russia for a very long time, as there have been everywhere.

there are lots of russian jewish musicians, music is a very big part of jewish culture. "ashkenazy" actually means "eastern european jew" which includes russia. my own family are ashkenazy. [/b]
I have a similar background on my dad's side. His grandmother came from the Ukraine in 1898 and his grandfather came from Russia in 1901. The rest of the Kooperstocks and Citrons came over between 1912 and 1917, although there may have been others that didn't migrate. The ones that did make it over, settled in Saugus, MA, New York, and New Jersey.

We've been able to trace the family back to villages in Poland, Ukraine, Belarussia, and Russia.

His mother's family, the Kelners, Israels, and Desners came over in the 1850's and 1860's from Russia, and settled in Brooklyn. My great great uncle was a land developer that made a lot of money when the bridge was opened up.

From what I found out, many of the Kooperstocks were musicians, and there's a possibility I am related to Andrew Kooperstock the concert pianist.

John [/b]
john,
our families came to america as part of the same migratory wave, and our grandparents could have been born in the same shtetl in europe. my paternal side settled in milwaukee (golda meir went to school with my grandmother) and the maternal side in brooklyn (they were from budapest, actually).

it would be interesting to see what proportion of the world's great musicians come from this small pool of eastern european jewish stock. there are many professional musicians in my family, and most of their musician friends were also from this part of the world.
Posted by: piqué

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 12:53 AM

oh, yeah, and some of them were gay! (horowitz definitley was.)
Posted by: pianodevo

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 04:21 PM

Why are so many great pianists Jewish? And the same for other instrumentalists? I also point out that a large preponderance of the top chessplayers throughout history have been Jewish.

I'll take a stab at the reason: scattered about in the diaspora over aeons of time, and often persecuted without reason, the Jews emphasized education and the arts as coping and survival mechanisms.

Even in the present day, when survival may not be threatened nearly as much as before, the custom of emphasis on education and the arts continues to percolate throughout Jewish families.

I'd never claim anything innately superior for the Jewish people (and I'm Jewish) -- that would simply be blatant racism, without any foundation at all.
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 04:28 PM

Yes, I think it might have had a little to do with "coping and survival mechanisms" in the shtetles, though we fortunately aren't having to fight as much today for our survival. But I'm not sure that's really one of the big reasons.


I do strongly agree with you that there is nothing innately superior about being Jewish. We're the "Chosen People", because God chose to give us his commandments... (there's actually a story that God had "chosen" other people for the commandments before, but they all didn't want them... so by the time he got around to asking the Israelites, he was so frustrated, that he just threatened to kill them by dropping a mountain on top of them if they didn't accept the commandments... :p ) but Jews certainly aren't "better" than others, just because we're Jews.


It's an interesting question, for a population so relatively small (last time I checked, 0.25% of the world population and 2% of the U.S. population), why we are so well represented in the arts, literature, science (look at Nobel Prize winners...), politics, etc.
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 05:25 PM

Well, the initial answer isn't so difficult as you might imagine. You've heard of the derogatory terms, "Being Jewed", etc? Well, they all stem from the Middle Ages, from Jews' supposedly extortionate practices as moneylenders.

Of course, it wasn't until the 19th century that a the "Jewish Disability" was lifted and a Jew was allowed to serve in British Parliament.

But that aside, noting the fact that Jews were moneylenders says one thing: they had money. And cash flow turns the world. Money, during those times, led to education, and education to art. It's no coincidence the best artists were also among the most educated. Later, as more people became educated, more artists emerged, and money became less of a factor. Still, most artists lived in some form of at least a middle-class existence, and many of the greats in some form of esteem or luxury.

With history comes heritage, and the trend continued to be passed down through the generations.

Now, how Jews came to be moneylenders is a different story...especially in countries dominated by other ethnicities and nationalities and religions. And that is probably a trickier question. ;\)
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 06:03 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
Now, how Jews came to be moneylenders is a different story...especially in countries dominated by other ethnicities and nationalities and religions. And that is probably a trickier question. ;\) [/b]
That's exactly the question I was thinking while reading your post. ;\)
Posted by: Theodore

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 06:07 PM

This thread has me scared and afraid!!! After all the discussions, trying to focus on the title and comments, I think I may have it worked out.

The part about being a gay pianist must be linked somehow to the circumcision process, is that a safe assupmtion? Or is it that all uncircumsized men that play the piano are straight, but not very attractive, unkind, uneducated and hate the arts?

Bi-sexual piano players would then have to be sort of educated, quasi-good looking, but not very educated.

Transexuals, do they play piano or not? I guess it depends upon whether they eat pork and shellfish. Someone help me understand this thread...
Posted by: Schumann

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 06:13 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
It's an interesting question, for a population so relatively small (last time I checked, 0.25% of the world population and 2% of the U.S. population), why we are so well represented in the arts, literature, science (look at Nobel Prize winners...), politics, etc. [/b]
Did you happen to see this article , Sam? Made the news a couple of months back, but I haven't seen anything on it recently.

 Quote:
Ashkenazim generally do well in IQ tests, scoring 12-15 points above the mean value of 100, and have contributed disproportionately to the intellectual and cultural life of the West, as the careers of Freud, Einstein and Mahler, pictured above, affirm. They also suffer more often than most people from a number of nasty genetic diseases, such as Tay-Sachs and breast cancer. These facts, however, have previously been thought unrelated. The former has been put down to social effects, such as a strong tradition of valuing education. The latter was seen as a consequence of genetic isolation. Even now, Ashkenazim tend to marry among themselves. In the past they did so almost exclusively.

Dr Cochran, however, suspects that the intelligence and the diseases are intimately linked. His argument is that the unusual history of the Ashkenazim has subjected them to unique evolutionary pressures that have resulted in this paradoxical state of affairs.
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 06:14 PM

Theodore... huh?

What is the link between circumcision and being gay?


Jewish males are circumcised, but that doesn't make us gay. If it did, we'd be in a lot of trouble in terms of marriage and making babies!!!

Not all gay people are circumcised, and I'm not sure how circumcision would make someone gay.
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 06:17 PM

-----
Posted by: John Citron

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 06:19 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
"...I do strongly agree with you that there is nothing innately superior about being Jewish. We're the "Chosen People", because God chose to give us his commandments... (there's actually a story that God had "chosen" other people for the commandments before, but they all didn't want them... so by the time he got around to asking the Israelites, he was so frustrated, that he just threatened to kill them by dropping a mountain on top of them if they didn't accept the commandments... :p ) but Jews certainly aren't "better" than others, just because we're Jews..."
[/b]
I wish some of my cousins saw things this way. They act like because they are Jewish, they are the best.

Remember... We are who we are, and we should respect every one else for whom they are. Music is a universal and international langauge that breaks through all walks of life, sexual preferences, ethnic groups, and religious beliefs.

John
Posted by: kathyk

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 06:41 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
Oh, of course. ;\)

Sviatoslav Richter
Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli
Glenn Gould
Earl Wild
Georges Cziffra
Claudio Arrau
...


[/b]
You sure about that? Gould and Richter sound suspect to me. Maybe not Ricther - that's very Germanic (although there's a lot of cross over there), but Gould . . .?
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 07:42 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
Now, how Jews came to be moneylenders is a different story...especially in countries dominated by other ethnicities and nationalities and religions. And that is probably a trickier question. ;\) [/b]
That's exactly the question I was thinking while reading your post. ;\) [/b]
Jews became moneylenders in the Catholic countries because their beliefs allowed them to lend money for interest. The Roman Catholic church considered all lending at interest "usury" (a term now reserved for Mafia loan sharks and the like.) The Christians couldn't charge interest and remain in good with the Church, so why bother? Since everybody, particularly the nobles, needed to borrow money, they were very glad to have someone to lend them it, interest and all. The Jewish people became famous as moneylenders to the nobility (and everyone else.) Like any other moneylenders some were exorbitant, some were reasonable. Unfortunately the exorbitant ones made more of a dent in the social consciousness. Hence Shakespeare's Shylock. On the other hand there is a very sympathetic Jewish money lender in Dicken's "Our Mutual Friend." As a side note, I've heard some speculation that Christopher Columbus was Jewish and that his financial connections helped get his voyage of exploration off the ground as much as Isabella's jewels.
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/21/05 09:19 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
Oh, of course. ;\)

Sviatoslav Richter
Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli
Glenn Gould
Earl Wild
Georges Cziffra
Claudio Arrau
...


[/b]
You sure about that? Gould and Richter sound suspect to me. Maybe not Ricther - that's very Germanic (although there's a lot of cross over there), but Gould . . .? [/b]
Siddhartha asked sarcastically if there were any pianists who weren't Jewish. So I started to list these guys who weren't Jewish.
Posted by: littlePianoGirl

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/22/05 10:30 AM

i think the reason why people think that male pianists are gay is because they look feminine when playing piano and getting really into the music (or in my opinion they do)
Posted by: Max W

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/22/05 10:58 AM

But then there are just as many 'masculine' appearing pianists (Volodos)
Posted by: Brendan

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/22/05 11:19 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
Oh, of course. ;\)

Sviatoslav Richter
Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli
Glenn Gould
Earl Wild
Georges Cziffra
Claudio Arrau
...


[/b]
You sure about that? Gould and Richter sound suspect to me. Maybe not Ricther - that's very Germanic (although there's a lot of cross over there), but Gould . . .? [/b]
Richter was definitely gay (or bisexual), but Gould's sexuality has always been in question. I believe that he was asexual, if anything.
Posted by: littlePianoGirl

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/22/05 11:45 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Max W:
But then there are just as many 'masculine' appearing pianists (Volodos) [/b]
true but whenever i see a masculine or muscular guy playing piano for some reason they make it look like playing piano is really hard and "rigid" instead of more graceful and passionate looking and sounding. i dunno maybe its just me. lol
Posted by: piqué

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/22/05 11:56 AM

fascinating article in the economist. thanks for posting it. i've sent it to several members of my family. we have both tay-sachs and breast cancer in the family.
Posted by: Diarmuid2

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/22/05 04:11 PM

Gould was so far in the closet he was in Narnia.
Posted by: kesterlucille

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/22/05 11:01 PM

Ok, so if there is a connection between circumcision and being gay, how do women become lesbians??

Are we concluding in this discussion that lesbians are not musical? I think that's rather offensive to lesbians!
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/22/05 11:06 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by kesterlucille:
Ok, so if there is a connection between circumcision and being gay, how do women become lesbians?? [/b]
I'm still confused about that first point.

All Jews are circumcised, so if circumcision really induced homsexuality, then the Jewish people would have ceased to exist a long time ago! (Homosexuals don't generally make babies...)


What is the rational behind penning such a strange connection?
Posted by: Palindrome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/22/05 11:54 PM

I dropped out of this thread on page 2, and now, returning on page 5, I find some very strange things.
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/23/05 12:04 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Palindrome:
I dropped out of this thread on page 2, and now, returning on page 5, I find some very strange things. [/b]
It's HAS turned into a bit of a fugue hasn't it.
Posted by: John Citron

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/23/05 02:29 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Frycek:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Palindrome:
I dropped out of this thread on page 2, and now, returning on page 5, I find some very strange things. [/b]
It's HAS turned into a bit of a fugue hasn't it. [/b]
The second subject has entered with a counter-subject has moved the the bass.

John
Posted by: lemoncoke

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:27 AM

http://www.league-ncr.com/library/history/heritage2.html

I found this link accidentally.........but I still can't believe Chopin is gay.....
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 11:39 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
 Quote:
Originally posted by kesterlucille:
Ok, so if there is a connection between circumcision and being gay, how do women become lesbians?? [/b]
I'm still confused about that first point.

All Jews are circumcised, so if circumcision really induced homsexuality, then the Jewish people would have ceased to exist a long time ago! (Homosexuals don't generally make babies...)


What is the rational behind penning such a strange connection? [/b]
I cant find the original post making this claim. Best I can see is its a warping of someone's sarcastic jokes hear and misinterpretation of them. If anyone really is suggesting this, its ludicrous. The majority of American males are circumsized. I think it was just a joke.
Posted by: pianistcomposer

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 12:18 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by lemoncoke:
http://www.league-ncr.com/library/history/heritage2.html

I found this link accidentally.........but I still can't believe Chopin is gay..... [/b]
This is a good link, but it's outdated; Corigliano won the Academy Award around five years ago for The Red Violin, and Lou Harrison has died, I think...
Posted by: MMSGA

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:06 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by kesterlucille:
Ok, so if there is a connection between circumcision and being gay, how do women become lesbians??

Are we concluding in this discussion that lesbians are not musical? I think that's rather offensive to lesbians! [/b]
Female circumcision, by logical extension. I'll ask my sister. She's so butch she makes John Wayne look positively flaming \:\)
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:16 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by MMSGA:
 Quote:
Originally posted by kesterlucille:
Ok, so if there is a connection between circumcision and being gay, how do women become lesbians??

Are we concluding in this discussion that lesbians are not musical? I think that's rather offensive to lesbians! [/b]
Female circumcision, by logical extension. I'll ask my sister. She's so butch she makes John Wayne look positively flaming \:\) [/b]
Yes, females can be circumcised:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c...ion&btnG=Search
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:19 PM

Did that say, "Exorcism of the Clitoris?"
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:21 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
Did that say, "Exorcism of the Clitoris?" [/b]
Only if the operation was performed on a witch.

"Excision" is the right term, I believe. ;\)
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:22 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by lemoncoke:
http://www.league-ncr.com/library/history/heritage2.html

I found this link accidentally.........but I still can't believe Chopin is gay..... [/b]
Who said Chopin was gay? He may have gone through a certain amount of adolescent sexual ambivalence, but as an adult he liked women quite a lot. He had a 10 year relation with a woman. She went by the pen name of "George Sand," but she was definitely female, real name "Aurore Dupin."
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:24 PM

On his way from Poland to France, when he was 20, Chopin stopped along the way to do business with a young girl named Theresa: he gave her money, and she gave him syphilis. What a deal.
Posted by: MMSGA

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:25 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Frycek:
 Quote:
Originally posted by lemoncoke:
http://www.league-ncr.com/library/history/heritage2.html

I found this link accidentally.........but I still can't believe Chopin is gay..... [/b]
Who aid Chopin was gay? He may have gone through a certain amount of adolescent sexual ambivalence, but as an adult he liked women quite a lot. He had a 10 year relation with a woman. She went by the pen name of "George Sand," but she was definitely female, real name "Aurore Dupin." [/b]
Devil's Advocate...

George Sand dressed like a man, and liked to behave in a masculine manner. Is it possible that Chopin was unconsciously attracted to this? He is then dating a biological woman, but intellectually atracted to her masculinity. Best of both world's, one could argue..
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:31 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
On his way from Poland to France, when he was 20, Chopin stopped along the way to do business with a young girl named Theresa: he gave her money, and she gave him syphilis. What a deal. [/b]
It is unlikely that it was syphillis, it was probably gonnorhea. Syphillis manifests itself symptomatically later and is much more serious. In Chopin's time it would eventually kill you after driving you insane. Gonnorhea (for a guy) is more of a nuisance
ailment, manifests itself quickly and was self limiting even in the 19th century. It is more serious in women and can cause "Pelvic Inflammatory Disease" (PID) which is what almost killed Josephine Baker.
Posted by: PianoJohn

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:32 PM

weird-a*ss thread all the way through
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:33 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Frycek:
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
On his way from Poland to France, when he was 20, Chopin stopped along the way to do business with a young girl named Theresa: he gave her money, and she gave him syphilis. What a deal. [/b]
It is unlikely that it was syphillis, it was probably gonnorhea.[/b]
At least she didn't give him diarrhea.


(Strange thread, indeed! :p )
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:36 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Frycek:
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
On his way from Poland to France, when he was 20, Chopin stopped along the way to do business with a young girl named Theresa: he gave her money, and she gave him syphilis. What a deal. [/b]
It is unlikely that it was syphillis, it was probably gonnorhea.[/b]
At least she didn't give him diarrhea.

He got that on Majorca. :p
(Strange thread, indeed! :p ) [/b]
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:38 PM

That's too bad. Diarrhea's a pain in the butt.
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:44 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by MMSGA:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Frycek:
 Quote:
Originally posted by lemoncoke:
http://www.league-ncr.com/library/history/heritage2.html

I found this link accidentally.........but I still can't believe Chopin is gay..... [/b]
Who aid Chopin was gay? He may have gone through a certain amount of adolescent sexual ambivalence, but as an adult he liked women quite a lot. He had a 10 year relation with a woman. She went by the pen name of "George Sand," but she was definitely female, real name "Aurore Dupin." [/b]
Devil's Advocate...

George Sand dressed like a man, and liked to behave in a masculine manner. Is it possible that Chopin was unconsciously attracted to this? He is then dating a biological woman, but intellectually atracted to her masculinity. Best of both world's, one could argue.. [/b]
They certainly complemented each other. George Sand dressed in women's clothing when she wanted to be athletic (she was an excellent horsewoman)or make a statement. She had been half raised by an eccentric tutor who treated her and her half-brother exactly alike. He treated them both like boys. The undeniable reality of her femininity once she reached puberty must've been very irksome to her. In spite of the fact that she dressed in masculine clothing and smoked cigars (aspects of her behavior Chopin found irritating) she was a well bred French aristocrat, and in manner she was said to be very quiet, soft voiced, lady like and demure. She was also petite and plump and very maternal. She definitely had her feminine side. As for her "masculine" side, Chopin admired her intellect and her sense of humor. He liked her strength, competence, strong will and directness of purpose as well since it was such a contrast to his own physical frailty, emotion lability and ambivalence.
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 10:58 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
That's too bad. Diarrhea's a pain in the butt. [/b]
Rancid olive oil and pig fat -- yuck!
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 11:26 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by MMSGA:
Devil's Advocate...

George Sand dressed like a man, and liked to behave in a masculine manner. Is it possible that Chopin was unconsciously attracted to this? He is then dating a biological woman, but intellectually atracted to her masculinity. Best of both world's, one could argue.. [/b]
I never agreed with the logic of that perspective (which I've heard elsewhere too). I've known plenty of gay men, and never have I found them expressing attraction to masculine women (ie, butch lesbians). Quite the opposite, they often date feminine men, and ogle masculine men. And as a straight male, I dont find myself being lured toward feminine men with womanly qualities. Quite the opposite, I find that quite the turn off all the way around.

From my chair, the 'gender bender' or 'gray area' community does not offer the best of both worlds, but fails to offer the essence of either. They offer a unique blend thats different and niche. just IMO.

And please no one be offended by that. I'm not saying anything is wrong with anyone, or anyone is less than or greater than anyone else.

And I do recognize that perhaps others DO find such individuals to offer the best of both worlds. It just doesnt strike me that way tho.
Posted by: MMSGA

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/27/05 11:48 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
 Quote:
Originally posted by MMSGA:
Devil's Advocate...

George Sand dressed like a man, and liked to behave in a masculine manner. Is it possible that Chopin was unconsciously attracted to this? He is then dating a biological woman, but intellectually atracted to her masculinity. Best of both world's, one could argue.. [/b]
I never agreed with the logic of that perspective (which I've heard elsewhere too). I've known plenty of gay men, and never have I found them expressing attraction to masculine women (ie, butch lesbians). Quite the opposite, they often date feminine men, and ogle masculine men. And as a straight male, I dont find myself being lured toward feminine men with womanly qualities. Quite the opposite, I find that quite the turn off all the way around.

From my chair, the 'gender bender' or 'gray area' community does not offer the best of both worlds, but fails to offer the essence of either. They offer a unique blend thats different and niche. just IMO.

And please no one be offended by that. I'm not saying anything is wrong with anyone, or anyone is less than or greater than anyone else.

And I do recognize that perhaps others DO find such individuals to offer the best of both worlds. It just doesnt strike me that way tho. [/b]
Yes, I agree with your reasoning. I was being 'logical'..

However, societal pressures at Chopin's times were different to now, so I was trying to remove current sociology.
Ultimately, I sense that you are, in the majority, correct...

A gay friend of mine once said that he wants a man, and not a man being a girl. If he wanted a girl, he'd get the real thing...

Also, I think the essence of this thread is based on the sterotypical nonsense of gay guys being 'artsy' and 'emotional', whereas straight guys don't react to their own...

A doomed thread from the beginning... \:\)
Posted by: ChatNoir

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/28/05 12:13 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
[/qb]
At least she didn't give him diarrhea.

Hmmmm, die-aria, isn't that the last aria the soprano sings before she dies?
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/28/05 03:19 AM

"Hmm...was it fatal?"
"Yes."
"How fatal?"
"Completely..."
"Ah!"

;\)
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/28/05 03:58 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
"Hmm...was it fatal?"
"Yes."
"How fatal?"
"Completely..."
"Ah!"

;\) [/b]
Lawyer to pathologist:
"How many autopsies have you performed on dead people?"
Pathologist to lawyer:
"All my autopsies are on dead people.
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/28/05 04:00 AM

[QUOTE]A gay friend of mine once said that he wants a man, and not a man being a girl. If he wanted a girl, he'd get the real thing...{/QUOTE]

My gay friends say exactly the same.
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/28/05 05:19 AM

 Quote:
A gay friend of mine once said that he wants a man, and not a man being a girl. If he wanted a girl, he'd get the real thing...
That's got to be one of the funniest things I've ever heard, and quite ironic, depending on how you look at it. ;\)
Posted by: Arabesque

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/28/05 09:16 AM

I think an important point to consider is that George Sands was a Dyke. This is explains her male pseudonym and her habit of dressing in male attire towards the end of her peculiar life. Chopin's desire was sublimated into the great music he produced as you all should know from your Freud. Now consider this one: Chopin was weak, foppish and effeminate in manner but George Sands was strong, independant, terse and masculine by contrast. What are we to make of that one?
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/28/05 10:17 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Frycek:
[QUOTE]A gay friend of mine once said that he wants a man, and not a man being a girl. If he wanted a girl, he'd get the real thing...{/QUOTE]

My gay friends say exactly the same. [/b]
Right, and I've heard it too. But usually, gay guys that act like girls pair with other gay guys that act like girls. They still ogle the fitness magazine cover model guys, but date the fems. I think one needs to identify with who one connects with, be able to see yourself in that person.

That being said, I remember once in Hollywood, I saw a lesbian couple walking down the street. One was an enormous, butch, biker, manly lez, would make Rosie O'Donnel feminine by comparison. And on her arm was a hot chick worthy of a playboy centerfold. ?!?!!? Couldn't help thinking 'wuzzup with that?' I mean we all understand the butch chicks motivation, but what is the hot chick thinking? Not to sound superficial, like its all about looks, its not. these two had entirely contrasting identifications.

Things like that make me officially admit I dont understand anything.
Posted by: Theodore

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/28/05 02:02 PM

This thread could serve as an FBI profiler's roster under, "piano playing perverts."
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/28/05 02:30 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Theodore:
This thread could serve as an FBI profiler's roster under, "piano playing perverts." [/b]
I notice you made sure you got your name included. :rolleyes:
Posted by: Theodore

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/28/05 04:12 PM

I want to be in good company!
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/28/05 04:32 PM

George Sand was a lesbian? If she was, why did she have so many male lovers? I thought "George Sand" was a pen-name, since society looked down on female authors, especially when they wrote about such racy topics ;\)
Posted by: gordonf238

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/28/05 04:59 PM

there is no documented affair between gould and a male partner/friend. a lack of intimate, on-the-record relationships with females does not automatically make one a homosexual.
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/28/05 05:46 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Arabesque:
I think an important point to consider is that George Sands was a Dyke. This is explains her male pseudonym and her habit of dressing in male attire towards the end of her peculiar life. Chopin's desire was sublimated into the great music he produced as you all should know from your Freud. Now consider this one: Chopin was weak, foppish and effeminate in manner but George Sands was strong, independant, terse and masculine by contrast. What are we to make of that one? [/b]
That she proposed to him? Or maybe he wore the dress? :p ;\)
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/28/05 05:53 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gordonf238:
a lack of intimate...relationships with females does not automatically make one a homosexual. [/b]
not automatically, but over time it can wear you down. :p
Posted by: Theodore

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/29/05 01:21 PM

Sort of like prison adjustment.
Posted by: Hank Drake

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/29/05 02:43 PM

There is no evidence that Gould was gay. He was so germ phobic, the thought of Gould having sex with anyone boggles the mind.

I don't know if it was mentioned here before, but Earl Wild is openly gay. His partner of 30 years, Michael Davis, is also his record producer.
Posted by: Piana Justice

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/29/05 06:10 PM

my pastor said that probably 95% of pianists or organists were homosexual, according to his experience, b/c he's hired several organists that swug the 'other way'. but i disagree with that, though.
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/29/05 06:17 PM

ummm....i'm not gay....and none of the piano majors at my school are gay...i do believe your pastor is wrong. there's a difference between several and 95%.
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/29/05 06:47 PM

It's interesting...is your pastor married? ;\)
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/29/05 07:06 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LWpianistin:
George Sand was a lesbian? If she was, why did she have so many male lovers? I thought "George Sand" was a pen-name, since society looked down on female authors, especially when they wrote about such racy topics ;\) [/b]
George Sand was simply a pen name that took on a life of its own. Aurore Dupin (George Sand) wrote a novel jointly with her then lover Jules Sandeau. She wanted him to publish it under his name, he insisted that she share the credit. "Sand" came for "Sandeau". "George" came from St. George's day when they came up with the plan. Aurore Dupin did have one tender relationship with an actress, at a time when she was feeling abused and traumatized after ending her marriage, but she soon returned to her true orientation.
Posted by: ChatNoir

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/31/05 12:34 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LWpianistin:
ummm....i'm not gay....and none of the piano majors at my school are gay... [/b]
Very interesting. How do you know that they are all straight?
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/31/05 09:19 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ChatNoir:
 Quote:
Originally posted by LWpianistin:
ummm....i'm not gay....and none of the piano majors at my school are gay... [/b]
Very interesting. How do you know that they are all straight? [/b]
Trial and error? :p
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/31/05 09:43 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
 Quote:
Originally posted by ChatNoir:
 Quote:
Originally posted by LWpianistin:
ummm....i'm not gay....and none of the piano majors at my school are gay... [/b]
Very interesting. How do you know that they are all straight? [/b]
Trial and error? :p [/b]



\:D
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/31/05 11:53 PM

haha... :rolleyes: :p I know because there are only 11 of us at my school ( 6 male, 5 female). 3 of the girls (myself excluded) have boyfriends/fiances, and 4 of the guys have girlfriends. I know about the others because, well, come on...it's a small music department...word gets around fast....
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 10/31/05 11:56 PM

i love those smileys, Sam!...oh how true they are.... :p
Posted by: ChatNoir

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 12:49 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LWpianistin:
haha... :rolleyes: :p I know because there are only 11 of us at my school ( 6 male, 5 female). 3 of the girls (myself excluded) have boyfriends/fiances, and 4 of the guys have girlfriends. I know about the others because, well, come on...it's a small music department...word gets around fast.... [/b]
Oh, to be so young and innocent.... I know men who have been MARRIED 25 years with kids and the whole nine yards, and suddenly they break out, get divorced and start living the life that they have longed for all the time with another man. The truth is, nobody knows the sexuality of others for sure. As for me, I simply don't care as long as they're happy. But don't think that all things are like they seem. There are lots of things out there that fly, but that does not make them birds.
(This thread now being on the 7th page certainly proves that sex does sell!!) \:D
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 12:58 AM

 Quote:
(This thread now being on the 7th page certainly proves that sex does sell!!)
Oh, most certainly. I'll never forget all the nasty looks I got from women when a professor posed the question, "Why would [X Company] hire attractive young women to market their products when the dominant sales force is knowledgable males?" to which I responded, "Because sex sells."

The girls hated it. I got an "A" in the class. I suppose that also answers itself. ;\)


And since the girl I'm interested in isn't interested, I've convincing proof that one of two things is true: either sex doesn't sell, or I'm not sexy...and we already proved the former false. ;\)
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 06:47 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ChatNoir:

(This thread now being on the 7th page certainly proves that sex does sell!!) \:D [/b]
I remember when this thread first started, I didn't want to post here and I figured that the thread wouldn't last very long anyway.

Hmmm... :rolleyes:
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 09:03 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ChatNoir:
 Quote:
Originally posted by LWpianistin:
haha... :rolleyes: :p I know because there are only 11 of us at my school ( 6 male, 5 female). 3 of the girls (myself excluded) have boyfriends/fiances, and 4 of the guys have girlfriends. I know about the others because, well, come on...it's a small music department...word gets around fast.... [/b]
Oh, to be so young and innocent.... I know men who have been MARRIED 25 years with kids and the whole nine yards, and suddenly they break out, get divorced and start living the life that they have longed for all the time with another man. The truth is, nobody knows the sexuality of others for sure. As for me, I simply don't care as long as they're happy. But don't think that all things are like they seem. There are lots of things out there that fly, but that does not make them birds.
(This thread now being on the 7th page certainly proves that sex does sell!!) \:D [/b]
well, yes. good point. i don't know their sexuality for sure, nor do i care. actually, the woman who sold my mom her house had just recently gotten a divorce because her husband decided he was gay, and they have 2 children...
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 09:14 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
 Quote:
(This thread now being on the 7th page certainly proves that sex does sell!!)
Oh, most certainly. I'll never forget all the nasty looks I got from women when a professor posed the question, "Why would [X Company] hire attractive young women to market their products when the dominant sales force is knowledgable males?" to which I responded, "Because sex sells."

The girls hated it. I got an "A" in the class. I suppose that also answers itself. ;\)


And since the girl I'm interested in isn't interested, I've convincing proof that one of two things is true: either sex doesn't sell, or I'm not sexy...and we already proved the former false. ;\) [/b]
yes. i must admit i grimanced when i read that question and (good) answer. Of course, it depends on the company. Why does sex sell? Especially to men? And I'm sure companies hire sexy men to sell products as well, but not nearly as must as companies hiring women purely for their looks. hmmm...i have to go to theory class now, and won't be back until after dinner...very interesting topic. i'll be back to defend myself :p
Posted by: Theodore

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 12:01 PM

I'd be willing to expand or respond to a thread simply titled, "Sex and the Piano" with every type of subject available: Historical; Emotional; physical; portrayal in art; potrayal in film; etc, etc... actual life experiences!!!

Now there's a thread with a real razor's edge to it. Truth is always more entertaining, it's just getting it from people that's tough.
Posted by: TS

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 01:00 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Brendan:
Richter was definitely gay (or bisexual), but Gould's sexuality has always been in question. I believe that he was asexual, if anything. [/b]
Hahaha, so true! I've read that a guy once made a pass at Gould, and he almost fell out of the window in shock. \:D And I bet similar reactions happened with women. ;\)
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 04:51 PM

 Quote:
And I'm sure companies hire sexy men to sell products as well, but not nearly as must as companies hiring women purely for their looks.
Well, naturally sexier people tend to 'have it easier' in life, purely because we are all attracted to attractive things. (This is a rather redundant phrase. ;\) ) But research has found (and don't ask me who did it...the reports we read in class didn't have names attached to them) that, while men will buy from sexy women purely because the women are sexy, women will not do the same regardless. So, it is easier to sell to a man than it is to a woman.

This, however, is a generality that I suspect isn't a complete picture. Look at how many women oogle over Brad Pitt, Orlando Bloom, and Johnny Depp. They go to see movies with them in it purely because they're in it. This also happened once upon a time in Mexico with Leonardo DiCaprio (I believe "The Beach" would be the movie... "Titanic" sold itself).

So, with women, if you're selling sex, then sex sells. But you can't use sex to sell a different product. (I think in the movie case, psychologically, it was about a 'fantasy', and not about the movie.)

Similarly, men cannot use sex to sell anything. Take, for example, the traffic ticket. Women hike up a skirt, pull down their tops, grab a tissue and bawl. They get out of the ticket. Men are SOL on that one.


So, you see, women can, more often than men, use sex to their advantage to get their way. Companies have picked up on it, and over the last 20-25 years or so, have been hiring sexy women to capitalize on this competitive advantage. ;\)
Posted by: ChatNoir

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 05:07 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
[QB] Similarly, men cannot use sex to sell anything. Take, for example, the traffic ticket. Women hike up a skirt, pull down their tops, grab a tissue and bawl. They get out of the ticket. Men are SOL on that one. [QB]
Not necessesarily. I got myself out of two tickets by just using my quick wit and knowing how to apply it. Just because I'm handsome, doesn't mean I'm stupid! \:D
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 05:26 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ChatNoir:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
[QB] Similarly, men cannot use sex to sell anything. Take, for example, the traffic ticket. Women hike up a skirt, pull down their tops, grab a tissue and bawl. They get out of the ticket. Men are SOL on that one. [QB]
Not necessesarily. I got myself out of two tickets by just using my quick wit and knowing how to apply it. Just because I'm handsome, doesn't mean I'm stupid! \:D [/b]
Yes, but note that you used your wit, and not your sex appeal. That's what I'm saying. ;\)
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 06:04 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
 Quote:
Originally posted by ChatNoir:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
[QB] Similarly, men cannot use sex to sell anything. Take, for example, the traffic ticket. Women hike up a skirt, pull down their tops, grab a tissue and bawl. They get out of the ticket. Men are SOL on that one. [QB]
Not necessesarily. I got myself out of two tickets by just using my quick wit and knowing how to apply it. Just because I'm handsome, doesn't mean I'm stupid! \:D [/b]
Yes, but note that you used your wit, and not your sex appeal. That's what I'm saying. ;\) [/b]
Dont jump to conclusions. Maybe the cop thought he was cute. It happens. It may have happened to me. I've gotten out of two speeding tickets. And on one of them, I think I might have sensed that vibe.

Further, wit is attractive. Getting out of a ticket requires you get the cop to like you. No way around that. And if he likes you...well, I dont wanna get into a whole psych thing here, but you know, sex appeal is not black and white genderically speaking.
Posted by: ChatNoir

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 06:12 PM

Nooo, it was my wit. Really. And if you could see me, you would know I'm not lying........... :rolleyes:
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 06:43 PM

well, yes, it does seem that it is easier to sell things to men based on the seller's sexiness, but i didn't want to say that earlier as it might have come across as a rather blunt assumption... yes, the speeding ticket thing...very true, but is it because women that do that are sluts or witty? or maybe both...haha. and possibly the policemen are gullible? or just men?i have a feeling that if a straight woman tried to pull that trick on a staight policewoman, it wouldn't work.... the tissue and bawling part did make me think of something. why is it that *most of the time* when a woman starts to cry, a man seems to be frightened and clueless. is it purely a biological factor? or does society also play a role in that? anyway...back to our off-original-topic topic:
the movie thing...haha...yes, i must admit i had a 12 year old's crush on Leo Dicaprio *hangs head in embarassment and shame*, and i do have a picture of Johnny Depp hanging on my wall...but there IS a piano in the picture \:\) so sex does sell to women, of course, but more to men, i guess...such a complex topic....
Posted by: Diarmuid2

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 06:45 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
 Quote:
(This thread now being on the 7th page certainly proves that sex does sell!!)
Oh, most certainly. I'll never forget all the nasty looks I got from women when a professor posed the question, "Why would [X Company] hire attractive young women to market their products when the dominant sales force is knowledgable males?" to which I responded, "Because sex sells."

The girls hated it. I got an "A" in the class. I suppose that also answers itself. ;\)


And since the girl I'm interested in isn't interested, I've convincing proof that one of two things is true: either sex doesn't sell, or I'm not sexy...and we already proved the former false. ;\) [/b]
I have a friend who's convinced that telling a girl he's gay is the ultimate chat up line.
Posted by: Diarmuid2

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 06:46 PM

Dear god, what a let down for my 777th post.
Posted by: pianodevo

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 06:55 PM

I was interested in a woman a few years ago; she has a Masters Degree in violin and plays quite well.

Then she got married and I didn't see her for a couple of years ... bumped into her though, and guess what?

Yeah, she'd recently gotten divorced -- the guy turned out to be gay. [I refrained from asking her how she could not have known ....]

In the interests of full disclosure: a little later this woman married some guy who, unfortunately, turned out not to want any children, whereas she did/does, and her biological clock is winding down toward zero.

Why would she have made such a commitment without first finding out about the children issue??
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 06:57 PM

"I have a friend who's convinced that telling a girl he's gay is the ultimate chat up line. "

haha. i think that's hilarious!...but is he serious when saying that? not that it would really make a difference....
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 06:58 PM

oh WOW! what a let down for my 100th post....
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 07:03 PM

onto the 8th page, i see...
Posted by: Derulux

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/01/05 07:39 PM

 Quote:
I have a friend who's convinced that telling a girl he's gay is the ultimate chat up line.
You're not the only one with one a' those. I just laugh and shake my head. Sure, it's a great conversation piece, and you can even make really good friends with a girl that way, but if you plan to spend your Saturday in any way other than shopping at a department store, you'd better come up with a different line. :p ;\)

 Quote:
the guy turned out to be gay. [I refrained from asking her how she could not have known ....]
Yeah, usually it's a dead giveaway when he's more interested in the milk-man than she is. :p
Posted by: Ronel Augustyn

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 08:33 AM

From a girl's point of view. Telling a girl your gay is the ULTIMATE WRONG pick-up line!!!

I mean, that scratches him off my list immediately. I don't know if I'd ever continue being "friends", coz I once had such a friend who just wanted to talk about all the guys he had the weekend.

Do you really think your girl-friend wants to hear about you fooling around with friggen MEN?

D, liked your joke about the shopping though!

Hi from South Africa
Posted by: Diarmuid2

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 08:39 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LWpianistin:
"I have a friend who's convinced that telling a girl he's gay is the ultimate chat up line. "

haha. i think that's hilarious!...but is he serious when saying that? not that it would really make a difference.... [/b]
His plan is, somewhere down the line, to tell her that he's never felt like this about a woman before, and that being with her has turned him. Have to add that his last relationship ended up with some biblical rows. Actually so did the one before that. He tends to go through a lot of girlfriends \:\)
Posted by: Ronel Augustyn

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 08:52 AM

Precisely. :p :p
Posted by: Diarmuid2

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 10:15 AM

Homophobia and a sense of humour failure. Hmmm....
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 10:24 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Diarmuid2:
His plan is, somewhere down the line, to tell her that he's never felt like this about a woman before, and that being with her has turned him. Have to add that his last relationship ended up with some biblical rows. Actually so did the one before that. He tends to go through a lot of girlfriends \:\) [/b]
:rolleyes:

No way, no how, no where, will any straight guy tell a girl (or any other guy for that matter) that he is gay. I dont care HOW secure he supposedly is with his masculinity, it just isnt something that a straight guy does. Uttering it pretty much ensures rumors will spread, and he will be known as the gay guy, to many.

What, he thinks the rest of the people in his life will know he's straight, but this one girl (or these several girls he's used the line on) will remain hermetically separated from the rest of the world so the perceived orientations never get mixed?

Any guy running around telling girls he's gay has a little more going on with that issue below the surface. Kinda like those guys i've known who go to gay bars because its "easier to pick up women there since they're off guard". :rolleyes:
Posted by: Diarmuid2

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 10:52 AM

I can assure you he has no issues, and no intention of having anything other than a one night stand. He thinks it's a good hook. And London is far too big a place for the odd girl he meets in a bar to end up bumping into his circle of friends.
Posted by: Monica K.

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 10:57 AM

Your friend is nuts. Even if I WERE looking for a one night stand (which, let me hasten to add, I am not), the last person I would hook up with is somebody who admits to having a lifestyle placing him at high risk of AIDS.

Tell your friend a MUCH more effective line is the ol' "my heart was broken two years ago and you're the first woman I've met who has given me hope that one day I might be able to love again." This works even better if said with a soulful expression on the face and, dare I say it, a welling or two of tears in the corner of the eye.
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 11:10 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Diarmuid2:
I can assure you he has no issues, and no intension of having anything other than a one night stand. He thinks it's a good hook. And London is far too big a place for the odd girl he meets in a bar to end up bumping into his circle of friends. [/b]
Well, ok, I guess I could see that, but thats not the scenario presented. You said its a longer term plan where he'll eventually tell the girl he's never felt this way about a girl before.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Diarmuid2:

His plan is, somewhere down the line, to tell her that he's never felt like this about a woman before, and that being with her has turned him.[/b]
You mean he goes through this whole metamorphisis all in one conversation at a bar? I was under the impression it was a longer term plan. That after knowing her for a few days/weeks he pretends to change teams. Also since you said he goes thru a lot of girlfriends, I assumed you meant girls he met this way, which wouldnt be one night stands. I guess I misunderstood.

If its all a one time ploy that is delivered across a few minutes in a bar, well, thats different. But how lame!!! LOL. But I suppose we'll say anything to a girl to score.
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 11:12 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Monica Kern:
Tell your friend a MUCH more effective line is the ol' "my heart was broken two years ago and you're the first woman I've met who has given me hope that one day I might be able to love again." This works even better if said with a soulful expression on the face and, dare I say it, a welling or two of tears in the corner of the eye. [/b]
LOL, but when just meeting in a bar for a one night stand? If a guy said that with a tear, I think he'd look like a needy mess bordering on psycho. LOL. ah what a tangled web we weave... \:\)
Posted by: Theodore

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 11:22 AM

IT's dishonest and one these days your old friend is going end up dealing with an angry bull fag that may beat him into submission. He sounds like an idiot.
Posted by: Diarmuid2

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 11:32 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
If its all a one time ploy that is delivered across a few minutes in a bar, well, thats different. But how lame!!! LOL. But I suppose we'll say anything to a girl to score. [/QB]
Yeah it's a course of the evening ploy, so over a few hours and many drinks hehe.
Posted by: Diarmuid2

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 11:33 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Theodore:
IT's dishonest and one these days your old friend is going end up dealing with an angry bull fag that may beat him into submission. He sounds like an idiot. [/b]
Well he's a lot of fun! And his relationships would make for a pretty action packed mini series I can tell you \:\)
Posted by: Monica K.

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 11:43 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Monica Kern:
Tell your friend a MUCH more effective line is the ol' "my heart was broken two years ago and you're the first woman I've met who has given me hope that one day I might be able to love again." This works even better if said with a soulful expression on the face and, dare I say it, a welling or two of tears in the corner of the eye. [/b]
LOL, but when just meeting in a bar for a one night stand? If a guy said that with a tear, I think he'd look like a needy mess bordering on psycho. LOL. ah what a tangled web we weave... \:\) [/b]
It's the WELLING of a tear in the corner of the eye (only) that is critical. Having the tear escape the eye and roll down the cheek will backfire, as you suggest, because it makes him look like "a needy mess." But a watery eye merely makes him look vulnerable and arouses maternal instincts. \:D
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 11:52 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Monica Kern:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Monica Kern:
Tell your friend a MUCH more effective line is the ol' "my heart was broken two years ago and you're the first woman I've met who has given me hope that one day I might be able to love again." This works even better if said with a soulful expression on the face and, dare I say it, a welling or two of tears in the corner of the eye. [/b]
LOL, but when just meeting in a bar for a one night stand? If a guy said that with a tear, I think he'd look like a needy mess bordering on psycho. LOL. ah what a tangled web we weave... \:\) [/b]
It's the WELLING of a tear in the corner of the eye (only) that is critical. Having the tear escape the eye and roll down the cheek will backfire, as you suggest, because it makes him look like "a needy mess." But a watery eye merely makes him look vulnerable and arouses maternal instincts. \:D [/b]
Well, ok, I know we're just having fun here, but still, just delivering the line itself, the mention of the word 'love' in an introductory bar conversation....ida know....sounds suspect. I mean if she uses that word in any context with me DURING the one night stand, red light and sirens start going off.

I mean in your scenario, 'love' is being suggested before any opportunity to know the person. Thats psycho. hehe. But thats just me. Maybe its different from the womans perspective. Seriously, if a guy met you in a bar, and while you're there chatting over drinks, and he delivered that line to you, that after two years of a broken heart, he thinks you might let him love again, that wouldnt send you running screaming? You wouldnt see that as too fast and needy?
Posted by: Monica K.

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 12:19 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
I mean in your scenario, 'love' is being suggested before any opportunity to know the person. Thats psycho. hehe. But thats just me. Maybe its different from the womans perspective. Seriously, if a guy met you in a bar, and while you're there chatting over drinks, and he delivered that line to you, that after two years of a broken heart, he thinks you might let him love again, that wouldnt send you running screaming? You wouldnt see that as too fast and needy? [/b]
I've been (thankfully) removed from the bar pickup scene for well over a decade now, so I'm probably a bad person to ask. I was assuming that this conversation would take place AFTER a couple of hours and a few drinks (is that too much of an investment to ask for a hookup?), which would make it a little more plausible. And note that in my carefully crafted script, the guy doesn't claim to already love the woman; he just says she is giving him hope that he might one day be able to love again. That keeps the woman from thinking he's a psycho stalker while also feeding into her irrational and (usually) erroneous dream that she might in fact discover true love in a singles bar. Sigh.
Posted by: ChatNoir

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 12:20 PM

Pheeooooowww,I get tired just reading about all this nonsense. Thank God I am living in sin and don't have to go through all this to get a date anymore.
Posted by: Siddhartha

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 12:27 PM

Monica: Well, YOU'RE the shrink, so I'll defer to your analysis of the psycho dynamics. \:\)

ChatNoir: Dont get too comfy, we've ALL been in domestic relationships, and yet here we are again. With divorce rate ca. 50% and all....maybe you should be taking mental notes for future reference. (just in case )
Posted by: ChatNoir

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 12:33 PM

This relationship is anything but domestic! It's WILD! \:D
Posted by: gryphon

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 12:44 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Theodore:
your old friend is going end up dealing with an angry bull fag [/b]
Well, that's not a statement you read every day.
Posted by: Brendan

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 05:40 PM

Okay, we've started to get reports about this thread. I'm not closing it (yet); please be considerate to other forum members.
Posted by: Eagle

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 06:07 PM

Why is someone "suspected" of being gay. The use of language tells us a lot about our attitudes.

To test your judgments, use the word "straight" instead and see if it sounds absurd or not" " I suspect he might be straight"

Yes and maybe this thread should be closed
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 06:31 PM

It is absurd, and it annoys me to no end when, for example, I say to someone " Do you remember that guy, Paul?" and they respond with "Oh, the gay one?" AARRRRGGGHHH!!! sooo unnecessary. JohnA, why should this thread be closed?
Posted by: pianojerome

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 06:38 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LWpianistin:
It is absurd, and it annoys me to no end when, for example, I say to someone " Do you remember that guy, Paul?" and they respond with "Oh, the gay one?" AARRRRGGGHHH!!! sooo unnecessary.[/b]
Well, I suppose that makes things easier sometimes if he's the only gay person in the group.

About a week ago, I was talking with someone in one of my classes and mentioned that there are three Adam's and two Sam's in our class (which is interesting because there are only about 15 people in our class). She responded with something like, "Oh there's another Sam in our class? Who is he?" So I said, "Yes, he's the Asian one." Of course, then she knew exactly who I was talking about, because there's only one Asian guy in our class.

It's not a derogatory statement by any means - just a way of pointing someone out in a group. Like if there was a group of 9 boys and 1 girl, and someone were to say "Who's Jordan?" and someone else were to say, "She's the girl."
Posted by: Diarmuid2

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/02/05 07:51 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Brendan:
Okay, we've started to get reports about this thread. I'm not closing it (yet); please be considerate to other forum members. [/b]
Sorry \:D sort of got drawn into it. I'll refrain from the more adult details in future.
Posted by: LWpianistin

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/03/05 12:36 AM

well, yes, i suppose i do see that it's not derogatory, but it still annoys me. If "Paul" was the only one in the group with glasses, but everyone knew he was gay, I'll bet they would still say "the gay one" and not "the one with the glasses" and it's because our society in general makes a big deal about sexuality, when there is no need to.
Posted by: nickd

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/03/05 12:29 PM

I've just read this thread from beginning to end... and I'm still not sure if Yamaha produce different pianos for the US. Have I missed something?

nick
Posted by: ChatNoir

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/03/05 03:01 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by nickd:
I've just read this thread from beginning to end... and I'm still not sure if Yamaha produce different pianos for the US. Have I missed something?

nick [/b]
I think one of us is reading the wrong post.
Posted by: John Citron

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 11/03/05 03:59 PM

I will repeat what I said before. WHO CARES!

They are pianists just like the rest of us. Think of them as great people and what they have to offer. If they don't mention their partner preferences, it isn't necessary to make that the topic.

I'm not offended by this often silly topic, it's just I was brought up to accept everyone for what good qualities they offer.

John
Posted by: Benn

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 09/26/07 10:27 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Drake:
I've heard that Vladimir Horowitz commented that there were three kinds of pianists: Jewish, homosexual, and bad. [/b]
Let's hope that that's not true, or I have no hope. Right now I would classify myself as a bad pianist, but I hope to overcome that. When I do I don't think I will fit into Vladimir's categories. I no interest in being with another man and although the Jewish culture intrigues me, I don't see myself as turning Jewish. Does this mean I'm doomed to being a bad pianist?
Posted by: Akira

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 09/26/07 11:15 PM

If you read it on the Internet, then it must be true (which means, so am I). ;-p
Posted by: Cultor

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 09/26/07 11:18 PM

Can we perceive, just hearing, the difference among a straight man, a straight woman, a homosexual or a lesbian musician interpretation?
If we can perceive it, then this is an interesting, objective musical issue.
If not, it’s just a private life subject, and not a matter of us.
Posted by: BB Player

Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays. - 09/27/07 12:26 AM

No reason at all to dredge up this two year old topic. Thread closed.