Fingering scales in double thirds

Posted by: Horowitzian

Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/05/09 07:24 PM

What is the most efficient way to finger these? I'm not having the best of luck making these sound even using Hanon's fingering, so I'd like some suggestions or to be pointed to a set of exercises that might have a better fingering.
Posted by: jehalliday

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/05/09 07:31 PM

Do you mean double thirds? If so, the RCM technique book (scales and arpeggios) has them with fingering for each key. I'm told the trick to an even sound is not to play them too slowly although I've yet to master it.
Posted by: ThomasF

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/05/09 07:36 PM

http://files.sheetmusicarchive.net/compositions_b/grad29.pdf

If that doesn't work, this should:

http://www.filesavr.com/grad29
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/05/09 07:36 PM

I'm in the US, so I don't have any RCM stuff.

Double thirds is another name for what I mean. I actually have a scales, etc book. I'll look to see if it has what I need.
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/05/09 07:37 PM

What's the distinction between thirds and double thirds?

Steven
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/05/09 07:38 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ThomasF:
http://files.sheetmusicarchive.net/compositions_b/grad29.pdf

If that doesn't work, this should:

http://www.filesavr.com/grad29 [/b]
Thanks! I see Tausig's name on it. What is this?
Posted by: ThomasF

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/05/09 07:44 PM

When one plays scales "in thirds" it, it often means "separated by a third". So essentially you can play a C major scale from C-C with L.H. while playing from E-E with R.H. Two keys are depressed at once.

Double thirds essentially means that you play the exercise above, but with one hand. The fingering I'd use with R.H. would be 13, 24, 35, 13, 24, 13, 24, 35.

With double thirds with both hands, you are playing 4 keys at once.


I should point out that you must be very careful while playing double thirds: if you are not relaxed or methodical enough, you can do some serious damage to your arm muscles. Pushing down 2 keys at once with 2 different fingers requires more dexterity than pushing one key down. I advise you to practice double thirds very slowly and relaxed.

Keep in mind that there are records of Rachmaninoff practicing the Chopin double thirds etude at a rate of about 1 bar per 23 seconds.


Edit: Horowitzian, it is double thirds fingering in all 24 major and minor keys.
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/05/09 07:44 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
Thanks! I see Tausig's name on it. What is this? [/b]
It's from Tausig's edition of selections from Clementi's Gradus ad Parnassum.

Steven
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/05/09 07:51 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ThomasF:
When one plays scales "in thirds" it, it often means "separated by a third". So essentially you can play a C major scale from C-C with L.H. while playing from E-E with R.H. Two keys are depressed at once.

Double thirds essentially means that you play the exercise above, but with one hand. The fingering I'd use with R.H. would be 13, 24, 35, 13, 24, 13, 24, 35.

With double thirds with both hands, you are playing 4 keys at once.


I should point out that you must be very careful while playing double thirds: if you are not relaxed or methodical enough, you can do some serious damage to your arm muscles. Pushing down 2 keys at once with 2 different fingers requires more dexterity than pushing one key down. I advise you to practice double thirds very slowly and relaxed.

Keep in mind that there are records of Rachmaninoff practicing the Chopin double thirds etude at a rate of about 1 bar per 23 seconds.


Edit: Horowitzian, it is double thirds fingering in all 24 major and minor keys. [/b]
Yeah, I guess there is a difference. \:o

Thanks for the warning; I figured out pretty quick that you need to be relaxed in order to play them at all. My problem is smoothness; the Hanon fingering doesn't seem to lent itself all that well to smoothness. I'll try Tausig's fingering and see how it works for me.
Posted by: soccer_daemon

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/05/09 08:13 PM

This is another site with good resources, including double thirds scales:

http://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/pedagogy.html

Scroll down to the heading Resources, the 2nd bullet point.
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/05/09 09:21 PM

Thanks! ;\) Looks like the same fingerings as those Tausig exercises above, but a lot easier to read.
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/05/09 11:36 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by soccer_daemon:
This is another site with good resources, including double thirds scales:

http://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/pedagogy.html

Scroll down to the heading Resources, the 2nd bullet point. [/b]
This source does not include chromatic scales in double thirds, while Tausig's does - separated by a minor third and by a major third.

Regards,
Posted by: jscomposer

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/06/09 12:29 AM

If you're as fast as your buddy Horowitz, you could play 'em all with the same two fingers! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnla_5zrHAE (around 1:45) ;\)
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/06/09 12:29 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
 Quote:
Originally posted by soccer_daemon:
This is another site with good resources, including double thirds scales:

http://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/pedagogy.html

Scroll down to the heading Resources, the 2nd bullet point. [/b]
This source does not include chromatic scales in double thirds, while Tausig's does - separated by a minor third and by a major third.

[/b]
No, it's just major and minor.

After playing with the Tausig scales this evening, I noted that the fingerings to make them fit neatly into 4 octaves are rather odd, and hard to remember. I guess they are correct, and OK to drill into habit? Or is there yet a better way I ought to do?

For C major:

3453434534343...34543434354343...543
1231212312121...12321212132121...321

3212132121213...32123121212342...123
5434354343435...54345343434534...345
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/06/09 12:48 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jscomposer:
If you're as fast as your buddy Horowitz, you could play 'em all with the same two fingers! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnla_5zrHAE (around 1:45) ;\) [/b]
Actually, those are not chromatic thirds (there are some earlier in the piece, though); but they might as well be. I've tried them, and they are difficult to pull off cleanly. Those are actually a series of 1st inversion chords on white keys.
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/06/09 06:23 PM

bump.
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/06/09 08:02 PM

Have you taken a look at Chopin's 25/6? It won't necessarily help you with fingering for pure double-thirds scales (as there is a mixture of major thirds and minor thirds), but it's pretty interesting to compare many different editions and the diverse fingerings that are suggested.

The chief problem in execution of the ascending scales is how to treat the lower notes when they are two successive white keys. Many editors recommend using the thumb for both notes, but I find it easier to slide my index finger from the previous black key onto the first white key and then use my thumb on the second one.

As fun as this piece can be to play, it won't help with the left hand at all; for that, you'd have to go to the Godowsky transcription. \:\( )

Steven
Posted by: jscomposer

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/06/09 08:03 PM

What piece of music are you trying to learn?
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/06/09 08:04 PM

No, but I will. Thanks for the suggestion! ;\)

I still would like some confirmation from someone knowledgeable on those Tausig fingerings before I drill any of them into my head... \:D

@ JScomposer: I'm just trying to learn scales in double thirds right now. \:\)
Posted by: jscomposer

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/06/09 08:14 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
@ JScomposer: I'm just trying to learn scales in double thirds right now. \:\) [/b]
OK. So, what piece of music are you prepping for? Are you panning on writing something with such patterns? Or is this just for shits and giggles?
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/06/09 08:15 PM

\:D \:D


The Mazurka in Op. 44 has quite a few double thirds (and other intervals, too)

I might try my hand at the Chopin etude Steven mentioned once I get comfortable with a few scales.

And, yes, being a composer I might want to use some double thirds.
Posted by: wr

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/07/09 06:28 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
No, but I will. Thanks for the suggestion! ;\)

I still would like some confirmation from someone knowledgeable on those Tausig fingerings before I drill any of them into my head... \:D

[/b]
I asked more or less the same question here some time ago (and for more or less the same reason) and and got no response. Anyway, I have been using those fingerings for some months now and they seem okay. I got them from somewhere other than Tausig; I think they are pretty standard.

But if you want to get REALLY serious about thirds and other double-notes, take a look at Moszkowski's "School of Double Notes", op. 64.

I'm not serious enough to tackle that, but I have been supplementing scales with various etudes in thirds, too, to help keep from getting too fixated on just the scales and those particular fingerings.
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/07/09 12:55 PM

Thanks, wr!! I just needed to hear from someone who uses them. I'll check out the Moszkowski Op. 64 later, after I've gotten a better feel for double thirds. ;\)
Posted by: computerpro3

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/07/09 01:05 PM

Look at Czerny Op. 740. There is an etude in double thirds. We had to do it as one of the pieces for our studio etude competition last year and it helped my thirds incredibly.

Here's a video of a kid that plays it decently

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMLSs1CepU8
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 01/07/09 01:14 PM

That looks like fun! Thanks for the suggestion. \:\)
Posted by: Michael_99

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 11/22/12 03:00 PM

Thank you very for posting this awesome piano resource.
Posted by: Michael_99

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 11/22/12 03:07 PM

Wow, I have never teared up before watching any video. Thanks for helping my education.
Posted by: Michael_99

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 11/22/12 03:17 PM

Wow, I have never teared up before watching any video. Thanks for helping my education. (Horowitz plays Carmen Fantasie)
Posted by: dolce sfogato

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 11/22/12 06:29 PM

there is so much difference between minor and major thirds, diatonical or chromatic, one hand /two hands, parallel motion/contrary motion, quick or slow, compare Chopin/Saint-Saēns/Scriabin/Debussy.
Posted by: DanS

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 11/22/12 08:47 PM

FWIW, I've found that practicing one voice legato and the other voice stacatto is very helpful for double thirds, double sixths, etc.
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Fingering scales in double thirds - 11/26/12 02:23 AM

Whoa, this thread is old. smile