Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90

Posted by: Ludwig23

Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/03/09 02:16 AM

I'm 18 years old, and I'm teaching myself the aforementioned Beethoven Sonata. I have a Korg C-26 (which basically has the range of a grand piano but it does not have pedals) and I seldom practice on a Steinway grand at our school. So, you see how I have a very big problem with my pedaling technique: I CAN'T PRACTICE IT!

I have the Urtext of the abovementioned sonata, and unlike other editions, it does not have any pedal marking. Can you please give me tips on how to pedal this sonata, especially that of the 2nd movement?

In bars 110-129 of the first movement, I only start pedaling at bar 124. Is this practice just right? I've heard of performances not using the pedal in these parts (Like Andras Schiff', for example.)

As for the 2nd movement, I have been alternating the dampers for every measure. However, I don't pedal during those notes with staccato markings. Somehow, I feel awkward doing this.

HELP! Thank you sooo much!
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/03/09 09:27 AM

Hi,

As I am very much familiar with this sonata (its one of my favorites, along with the other 31 :D), indeed very little pedaling in the first movement, I like it the best like Andras Schiff does it (and Gulda). Second movement is a different story, it is said that its a 'conversation with a beloved one', if beethoven actually wrote this I don't know, but I can definetly hear the similarity's in the piece. Its important to never muddy it up, but making it to clean will make it sound akward too imo. The staccato's in this piece I ignore (something I very rarely do), because it seems to me very out of place (compared to other lyrical-like works of beethoven), and because of the legato slurs.

The piece in the middle of the first movement (the very fast right hand passage) is really killing btw, especially because you don't want to make it sound too dominant, as the 'melody' is carried in the left hand.

Good luck!!!
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/03/09 09:36 AM

I would try and find a good edited edition online or even buy one. Since you don't hve much experience with the pedal you can follow all the specific pedalling and learn that way. Better than trying to follow a few sentences of explanation IMO.
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/04/09 11:55 AM

Oh my God. You are a young boy and you want to play Beethovens "Mondschein Sonata". Please do not do this.
Look at the Third Movement, can you play this in the Presto Tempi? Go Ahead.

Chief
Posted by: Kreisler

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/04/09 12:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Chiefci
Oh my God. You are a young boy and you want to play Beethovens "Mondschein Sonata". Please do not do this.
Look at the Third Movement, can you play this in the Presto Tempi? Go Ahead.

Chief


He's not playing the "Mondschein Sonata," he's playing Op. 90 (the 27th sonata), not Op. 27...
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/04/09 12:18 PM

And what a great third post btw chiefci...
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/04/09 01:09 PM

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I would try and find a good edited edition online or even buy one. Since you don't hve much experience with the pedal you can follow all the specific pedalling and learn that way. Better than trying to follow a few sentences of explanation IMO.


Since the OP has little - if any experience - with the use of the pedal, he should also realize that pedal indications - supplied by editors - are only suggestions. They are not necessarily to be strictly observed. One has to adapt any pedal suggestions to the individual piano one is playing, and, as we all know, every piano is different in amount of sustain both with and without pedal.

Understand that the pedal is simply not an "on and off" switch but that there are potentially infinite shadings available, understand the sound you want to produce, understand how the pedal will help to produce that sound, and then use the pedal judiciously on the particular piano you are playing to get that sound.

Regards,
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/04/09 02:18 PM

Sorry, keep cool.
I am an Beethoven Specialist.
Let us be Friends.

Chief

PS. Ok I posted 3 but I Think it would be more. Ha, ha
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/04/09 02:35 PM

A Beethoven specialist, that will come in handy as I am a 99% beethoven player myself. Cheers.
Posted by: Ludwig23

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/06/09 09:32 AM

Originally Posted By: vvanrij
Second movement is a different story, it is said that its a 'conversation with a beloved one', if beethoven actually wrote this I don't know, but I can definetly hear the similarity's in the piece. Its important to never muddy it up, but making it to clean will make it sound akward too imo. The staccato's in this piece I ignore (something I very rarely do), because it seems to me very out of place (compared to other lyrical-like works of beethoven), and because of the legato slurs.


I've heard Schiff talk about interpreting Beethoven as "not clean" and that "we shouldn't smooth out the rough edges," reasoning out that as a composer, Beethoven was not a "watercolor painter" rather a "sculptor."

It was when I heard these statements from Schiff that I decided to keep the staccatos. It's my pedaling, however, that make the staccatos sound awkward.

Anyways, thank you sooo much for your advice! I greatly appreciate it. smile
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/06/09 11:37 AM

To quote from my henle urtext:

Staccato: We cannot enter here into a new discussion of the controversial question raised by Nottebohm, Krebs and others regarding the different interpretation of round dots and pointed dashes. The basic texts lack the clarity and consistency necessary for a conclusive decision. Often there is hardly any distinction between dot and dash. Therefore the now customary dot has been employed throughout.

Don't get me wrong, I by no means tend to smooth out Beethoven. Its just that in cases like the second movement of opus 90, you gotta remember what kind of great mind the man had. I refuse to play something that clearly sounds out of place (and I am very well familiar with all Beethoven piano pieces). This is very different than for example the staccato's in the second movement of op13. I don't know of any professional pianists (this includes Andras Schiff, you can even hear it in his lecture when he plays it, you can hear when it is legato or not, but he never plays staccato) who play the staccato's in the 2nd mov op90, but correct me if I'm wrong. Most of all you should offcourse play as you please, but just don't take the urtext versions of today as absolute truths.

Cheers laugh

ps just to be sure, that staccato's I'm talking about are in bar: 2, 6, 8 etc.
Posted by: Morodiene

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/06/09 12:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Jan Briane Astom
I'm 18 years old, and I'm teaching myself the aforementioned Beethoven Sonata. I have a Korg C-26 (which basically has the range of a grand piano but it does not have pedals) and I seldom practice on a Steinway grand at our school. So, you see how I have a very big problem with my pedaling technique: I CAN'T PRACTICE IT!

I have the Urtext of the abovementioned sonata, and unlike other editions, it does not have any pedal marking. Can you please give me tips on how to pedal this sonata, especially that of the 2nd movement?

In bars 110-129 of the first movement, I only start pedaling at bar 124. Is this practice just right? I've heard of performances not using the pedal in these parts (Like Andras Schiff', for example.)

As for the 2nd movement, I have been alternating the dampers for every measure. However, I don't pedal during those notes with staccato markings. Somehow, I feel awkward doing this.

HELP! Thank you sooo much!


I am not familiar with your Korg, but by all means, get a pedal! They're not expensive, and you are really hampering your ability without which to practice regularly. Most digital pianos and keyboards have a sustain pedal input.

As for how to pedal, it is all based on how it sounds. Certainly having an idea of what is acceptable in interpreting Bach vs. Chopin, for instance, you would understand that less pedal is better, so historical considerations are needed. However, the best indicator is your ear. Try a few different ways and make a choice. If you're not sure, do listen to what professional pianists have done with those passages and see which ideas you like best. You will be surprised at the variety, but this gives you freedom. I never look at the pedal markings in the score because as Bruce pointed out, many of them were editorial. That editor does not know my piano or my sensibilities.
Posted by: Ludwig23

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/06/09 11:24 PM

Originally Posted By: vvanrij
Most of all you should offcourse play as you please, but just don't take the urtext versions of today as absolute truths.


Being musically immature, I usually become "faithful to the sheet music." SO, are you advising me that I should also go against some of what is explicitly written in the Urtext version of the piece?
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/07/09 03:47 AM

Well most if not all urtext versions have a note in either the front or the back of the book, or at the bottom of the page, where they explain that some (and sometimes a lot) of information was uncertain, and they had to make a choice on what to print. In all cases, being it written in the urtext, is by no means a certainty of correctness, and you should always think for yourself. Like I pointed out, I have yet to find a professional pianist who plays the staccato's in those bars in Opus 90 2nd mov (including Andras Schiff, who I know did a lot of research on all the Beethoven Sonata's), and this is for a reason I pointed out earlier. Again the choice is all yours, I'm just trying to help.
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/07/09 07:16 AM

Ok I take a mistake with "Beethovens" Op.Nr. but one thing I want to pointed out. All of the 32 Beethoven Sonatas are very hard to play and a young boy at a digi piano never can do this.
That is my opinion.
Chief
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/07/09 07:25 AM

Haha, thats still not very nice. I'm 22 and I play op 49, op 79, op14/1 and am learning op2/1 now. I do however agree that Jan should get a proper digital piano asap if he wants to play the beethoven sonata's.

Jan as you said you are musically immature, may I ask what other beethoven sonata's you have played? I started out with the Pastorale, Pathetique and op90 sonata's myself, only to find out that I could almost certainly never master those, without playing some of beethoven's 'easier' works, hence now I am working down the list (and I can tell you that the op90 is well past half-way in the difficulty ladder, so not a very good start).
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/07/09 11:09 AM

I'm 22 and I play op 49, op 79, op14/1
Beethoven composed 32 piano sonatas the 32 was op.111.
Where is op. 49 sorry I found it.Sonata Nr. 20. Big Problem. You think yo can handle it. May be you a small Mozart or you an "Wunderkind"
Chief
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/07/09 11:57 AM

Haha wunderkind. No barenboim was able to play all 32 beethoven sonata's from memory at age 17, thats what I call a wunderkind.

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3238877.ece
Posted by: Ludwig23

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/07/09 12:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Chiefci
All of the 32 Beethoven Sonatas are very hard to play and a young boy at a digi piano never can do this.
That is my opinion.
Chief


I think not all of Beethoven's sonatas are dificult. The 2 op. 49 sonatas are actually very easy, though I haven't formally studied them yet.

By the way, I think that practising on a digital piano is not at all an impediment in learning a Beethoven sonata. I've already learned almost 80% of the sonata op 90, and all I had was a digital piano to start with...

I do respect your opinion, however... after all, we are all entitled to one.

Good day! smile
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/07/09 12:12 PM

Yes my friend. Barenboim is nothing. Sorry but this is not an great Beethoven Interpreator. Look at Horowitz and Glenn Gould, that are good piano player or not?
Chief
Posted by: Ludwig23

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/07/09 12:20 PM

Originally Posted By: vvanrij
Haha, thats still not very nice. I'm 22 and I play op 49, op 79, op14/1 and am learning op2/1 now. I do however agree that Jan should get a proper digital piano asap if he wants to play the beethoven sonata's.

Jan as you said you are musically immature, may I ask what other beethoven sonata's you have played? I started out with the Pastorale, Pathetique and op90 sonata's myself, only to find out that I could almost certainly never master those, without playing some of beethoven's 'easier' works, hence now I am working down the list (and I can tell you that the op90 is well past half-way in the difficulty ladder, so not a very good start).


Op. 90 is my first Beethoven sonata... I started out on the first movement about a year ago, though primarily this was because I had no choice (I was given a Beethoven sonata book for Christmas. Unfortunately, I was given the volume 4, which contained sonatas no. 26 to 32.) I browsed through the sonatas and found no. 27 to be the easiest among the sonatas in the book!

I continued to struggle with the first movement of the sonata... and when I though of giving up (because I admit I was technically very unprepared to tackle the sonata in the first place), I was already addicted to it!

It was not until I've heard Schiff's lectures about this sonata that I had a real progress in playing this sonata. Indeed, understanding more about a composition helps...

Hehe... After I finish and polish this sonata, I plan to learn Sonata no. 22 op 54. Hehe. I have this thing about two-movement sonatas... I'm not really a good memorizer.

Anyways, I do agree that I need a better digital piano. I was thinking of selling my Korg C-26 for a Yamaha Clavinova. I've heard those come with damper and una corda pedals. Do you recommend this model?

Thank you and have a good day! smile
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/07/09 12:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Chiefci
Yes my friend. Barenboim is nothing. Sorry but this is not an great Beethoven Interpreator. Look at Horowitz and Glenn Gould, that are good piano player or not?
Chief


Well indeed Barenboim isn't my favorite beethoven player (especially after hearing the rubato in his appassionata, which is imo unacceptable). I prefer Friedrich Gulda, and I just bought the cd's from Andras Schiff, which I will be listening to tommorow.
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/07/09 12:35 PM

If I were you, I would definitely get the other volumes. You're 18 years old, you should be able to get them. I'm saying this because there is a big chance that op90 will drive you mad before you are able to play it. Clavinova's are there in all different kinds, you will find lots of information about them in the digital piano section on this forum. I didn't have a budget limit, and ended up with the Kawai CA111, it was one of the only digital piano's that made me feel like I was playing a real one.

I posted this list earlier, and part of it is actually from someone else on this forum, but it might be informative for you to see. Its a difficulty list of the beethoven Sonata's (in my opinion of course!)

1 - Op 49#2 (leichte sonate 2)
2 - Op 49#1 (leichte sonate 1)
3 - Op 79 (coocoo)
4 - Op 14#1 (string quartet)
5 - Op 2#1 (little appassionata)
6 - Op 10#1
7 - Op 14#2
8 - Op 10#2
9 - Op 26 (marcia funebre)
10 - Op 13 (pathetique)
11 - Op 54
12 - Op 27#2 (mondschein)
13 - Op 28 (pastorale)
14 - Op 31#3 (the hunt)
15 - Op 78 (for theresa)
16 - Op 31#2 (tempest)
17 - Op. 22
18 - Op 2#3
19 - Op 2#2
20 - Op 90
21 - Op 31#1
22 - Op 10#3
23 - Op 27#1
24 - Op 7 (grande sonate)
25 - Op 110
26 - Op 57 (appassionata)
27 - Op 109
28 - Op 81a (les adieux)
29 - Op 53 (waldstein)
30 - Op 111
31 - Op 101
32 - Op 106 (hammerklavier)
Posted by: BruceD

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/07/09 01:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Chiefci
Yes my friend. Barenboim is nothing. Sorry but this is not an great Beethoven Interpreator. Look at Horowitz and Glenn Gould, that are good piano player or not?
Chief


To say that "Barenboim is nothing" gives you very little credibility here. He is a fine musician in many respects.

Regards,
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/08/09 12:54 PM

Sorry, big excuse what I am talking about Barenboim.
Please forgive me but one thing. I play the Pathetique better than him. Listen at Piano Player Network. Pathetique Part 1. It is really great or?
Chief
Posted by: Juishi

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/08/09 01:46 PM

Would you bother to provide a link to your recording? Your claim definitely made me very curious and for some reason I highly doubt your words.
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/08/09 02:04 PM

I'm intrigued myself laugh Barenboim is one of the best pianists alive, and the reason I don't like him for beethoven is because of the choices he made, its has nothing to do with his outstanding abilities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeL8oZAkD...PL&index=46
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/08/09 04:48 PM

No, sorry Barenboim is an old man same like me. He plays Beethovens Sonatas perfect, but there is no live in it.
I play Beethoven,not such good but there is a feeling there is live. My be Ludwig said, That is it.
Sorry that I have to say this one.
Chief
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/08/09 05:13 PM

I think Op. 90 should be somewhere near the very low teens on the ranking list of the Sonatas.
Posted by: mr_roberts_z

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/08/09 05:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Juishi
Would you bother to provide a link to your recording? Your claim definitely made me very curious and for some reason I highly doubt your words.


Ditto.

Interesting that a Beethoven expert would, after mistaking the sonata number for the opus number, assume that Opus 27 must mean the C# minor sonata.
Posted by: Minniemay

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/08/09 05:55 PM

There is no such thing as an easy Beethoven sonata.
Posted by: PartyPianist

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/08/09 10:12 PM

I am over 40 and play all Beethoven's piano sonatas. The greatest challenge comes with the "una chorda" octaves in final movement of the Waldstein along with the trill sections of his number 32 variations.

The E minor 27 is not without challenges (as with ALL Beethoven's sonatas, incl the sonatinas), particularly I find in the more difficult final movement. Regards the bars you inquire about, first you need to master the technique for performance WITHOUT sustaining pedal. Then I would advice that you pedal only for enhancement SPARINGLY. The fact you are concerned about pedaling suggests you are using it as a "crutch". If so, the work is beyond your current technique and you are advised to revisit it when you are able.
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/09/09 04:17 AM

..... you play op106? ..... And his number 32 variations, you mean the Diabelli variations I assume? And you really find the Op90 second movement harder than the first one?

I'm sorry if I seem really sarcastic, its just that when people claim they can play the op106 sonata, I become very suspicious. A youtube video will do laugh!
Posted by: PartyPianist

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/09/09 04:54 AM

I play all his sonata's including the "hammerclavier" Opus 106. Perhaps I don't approach the great fugue as fast as Glenn Gould and I have a few problems after the "sempre dolce". For interpretation I am up with Sokolov, for instance. You make a donation & I make you a video vvanrij.

But back to the topic. I just performed the 1st movt of opus 90 now. The hard bars are 55-64 & 198-207. Once you have mastered those, you are well on the way with this work. You should aim for a 150 crochets +/- tempo in my opinion. Beware of bars 133-143. It is easy to lose Beethoven's "musical concept" there. If the tempo drops much under 150 crochets bars 113-133 seem lifeless. The runs at bars 29-31, 33-34 etc are extremely challenging. You need to achieve a rhythmically balanced whilst "unwavering" forte. "2nd best" won't do. Here only a 1st rate performance will have impact.

There is my advice. Heed it as you will & good luck with perseverance.
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/09/09 06:05 AM

Hi, how much will that donation be laugh (you'll have to dedicate the performance to me of course, Victor gewidmet). I find the bars 113 till 131 extremely difficult, because the logic in the right hands sequence is extremely hard (seems almost non existent) and you have to play it softly so that the LH shine's trough with the melody. Cheers
Posted by: PartyPianist

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/09/09 07:46 AM

Keep an eye on the sf's in the left hand score vvanrij. The right hand is an exercise of tonal development. It is important to ensure there are no "breaks" in continuity - even minor. Do not treat it as a straightforward crescendo development - rather a pulsating harmonic development. I imply an "accelerando" in my development of this section. Hence the importance of 133-143 where I counter with a gradual "ritenuto". The sections 55-64 etc are by far the most technically difficult parts of this movement. They don't sound particularly glamorous, but the left hand needs to be played at a uniform piano with the right hand octaves accentuating the harmonic development. If you can play that perfectly.....I WANT TO HEAR IT!!!!! Forget Op 106!

On that note, why do you have such a lust for the big works? Would you not want to hear the most immaculate performance of Beethoven's 1st F minor sonata in place of a mediocre performance of the big B flat?
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/09/09 08:13 AM

Well mine is a different story. I used to play alot of so so piano with popular pieces and bad techniques, never really practicing alot (I did this from age 12 till 20 or something like that). But then I discovered the music of Beethoven, which just really hits me, and its music I really understand.

So then I bought some sheet music, and off I went learning the Pathetique, Opus 90, Pastorale etc. only to find out that I really wasn't capable of playing these advanced pieces. So I ended up now playing the pathetique about 70% of how I want it to sound in the end, of opus 90 I can play the 2nd movement pretty well (but still not errorless), and the second movement of the pastorale.

And I started going back now (my goal in the end is to be able to play all 32 sonatas, I don't care if I will never get it to full speed with the most difficult pieces, I still want to play them. Thats why I'm very jealous of you). So I went off learning Op49's, Op14/1, Op79 (I still think this is a rather hard piece, harder than the op14's) and am now learning Op2/1. I love all of his Sonatas very very much, so I want to take my time to really get to know them and play them well, but I am still unpatient, so I tend to move on to a new piece, before perfecting the old ones (I still play them daily, but almost never errorless).

Its not that I have a lust for the big works, I just thought that the hammerklavier was as good as impossible to play for the normal piano players. I mean I do have some talent, but I'm afraid I lost out alot in the years (12-20) by not moving on, and I just hope I can catch up or something.
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/09/09 08:23 AM

Ok, sorry Op. 90 is the 27 Sonata, and op, 27 Nr. 1&2 esp: Nr. 2 is the famous " Mondschein " Sonata. Is that ok now.
I will provide a link to my recordings, first Pathetique.
Chief
Posted by: PartyPianist

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/09/09 08:44 AM

Thank you for being humble vvanrij. I suspected as much, by the way!

I would be inclined to approach Beethoven's Grand Sonata Op 26 "Andante con Variazioni" as it is offers something for the beginner and the virtuoso. However you must try to MASTER Op2 no 1. The Adagio is deceptively challenging and the Minuet is a masterpiece that is extremely easy to perform badly.

By way of my background, I was an extremely passionate pianist who managed to perform a castration of Tchaikovsky's B flat minor piano concerto at age 16. At age 35 I was an average untrained pianist who "believed" he could play the Appassionatata. I then took lessons with Bransby Byrne and we started performance training with that work. I made a performance of the final movement at 60 crochets (100 for the presto finale). Now I play the same movement at 140 crochets and the presto at 220. It took 5 years of hell (1 3/4 hours a day technical exercises, scales and arpeggios....before I start to work on pieces!!!!!). Then everything "clicked". And now there is nothing I can't play. Correction - there is plenty I can't pl ay, but nothing is beyond my mastery.

You need 4 elements to become a great pianist - talent, passion and dedication. If any of those three are lacking you will probably not make it. The fourth is LUCK. You need a good teacher. Without direction, there is no path.
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/09/09 11:08 AM

Sorry, but you do not understand what I mean. First of all my Name is "Chief" Boss at an Merchant Ship, same like "Kapitän" but Chief is the Boss of the Engine. Amazing he play that piano too.
Chief
Posted by: Ludwig23

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/09/09 11:29 AM

Originally Posted By: PartyPianist
You need 4 elements to become a great pianist - talent, passion and dedication. If any of those three are lacking you will probably not make it. The fourth is LUCK. You need a good teacher. Without direction, there is no path.


I find your posts very inspiring... At least you're not one of those people who think 18 year-olds can play a Beethoven sonata. cry

Anyways, With regards to your aforementioned post, I think I have the first three elements... But I lack the 4th element... A teacher! Whoa! I have a teacher but we only meet for at most twice a year (like we live more than 600 miles apart.) That's why for the most part, I'm teaching myself. Just today, I've finished reading the whole of the 2nd movement. I just hope I can polish it sooner than I expect. I'm eager to work on a new Beethoven sonata (as with Victor here, I also want to play all Beethoven sonatas. hehe)

Originally Posted By: PartyPianist
The fact you are concerned about pedaling suggests you are using it as a "crutch". If so, the work is beyond your current technique and you are advised to revisit it when you are able.


Withreards to this concern, I don't think I'm using the pedals as a "crutch". I think I can play the whole sonata pretty well without a pedal (according to my standards, by the way. hehe) and I just want to use the pedal to improve the music I'm making... not to make my playing easier... crazy

Anyways, congratulations! I think playing Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas is a big achievement! How I wish I could also do so in the future. whistle

Good day to you sir! laugh
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/10/09 04:39 PM

Sorry, but I never told that I can play all the 32 Beethoven Sonatas. Esp.the last once I never can understand. Hammerklavier. I agree whith Glenn Gould, he also can not understand Beethovens last Sonatas, Hammerklavier and so.
There are 3 Sonatas like same as top hits. Mondschein, Pahthetique, and Appasionata.. All other one are not so well known.
Chief
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/10/09 05:07 PM

Wow you are really confusing me here chief. Hammerklavier is op106, his last three ones are 109-110 and 111. Nobody said that you could play the 32 sonata's, partypianist said that he could. Furthermore your second post in this thread was: "I am an Beethoven Specialist." I find it kind of upsetting that a 'beethoven specialist' doesn't understand Beethoven's hammerklavier and late sonatas. Also tophits would definitely include the Waldstein.
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/10/09 06:52 PM

Ok. When I am am talking, I am an an Beethoven specialist, that does not mean that I can play all his sonatas. I play Beethoven in an selected manner, and I think very good. I can make an good Interpration because I am an German, and Beethoven was this too, he lives in Wienna but he was born in Bonn. But talking is nothing I will make a new record of the Pathetique at esnips than you can see whats going on.
Chief
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/11/09 03:43 AM

I can type this again and again, but I urge you to read my previous post! Also I think you being german has nothing to do with a better interpretation (the VAN Beethoven's were originally from Belgium, but my Belgium friend doesn't have a 'better' interpretation). I would love to hear your version of the Pathetique smile.
Posted by: Ludwig23

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/11/09 11:18 PM

I don't get it. Why does chiefci have to blow his own horn all the time? And yeah, come to think of it, he's even discouraging young players from studying Beethoven.

Let us hear your "famed" interpretation of the Pathetique. We be the judge.

Geez. cry
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/12/09 06:06 PM

http://www.clavio.org/
First listen here Pathetique Part 1 in Music Playlist chief.
Next I will record the first movevement compleate, than we talking angain.
Posted by: Canonie

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/13/09 12:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Chiefci
http://www.clavio.org/
First listen here Pathetique Part 1 in Music Playlist chief.
Next I will record the first movevement compleate, than we talking angain.


that was very special grin really made my day.
Enjoy your muscic chiefci, someone's gotta do it.

Think I'll do some practice...
(it's no.16 on the playlist if you wanna listen)
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/13/09 05:18 AM

Wow that beginning was really slow, and seemed without a steady pulse (the note durations don't add up). Also you play like extremely rubato, a lot of pauses, this is very uncommon for beethoven music (rubato was more for the romantic period, not the classical).

I can play that better than you

I'm sorry but how dare you say you are better than Barenboim :|
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/13/09 05:03 PM

No, I do not say that I can better play than Barenboim.
I pay my style and that is what I feel. This have nothing to do with good or bad. Yes I feel the beginning very slow. Beethoven said "Grave" wat does that mean.
This is my interpration and very special, either you like it or not. Wait for the Part 2.
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/13/09 05:09 PM

To quote you from the previous page of this thread:

"Sorry, big excuse what I am talking about Barenboim.
Please forgive me but one thing. I play the Pathetique better than him"

To me in that recording it sounds like you learned that the same day you recorded it. You made plenty of mistakes, pauses (searching for the keys), no dynamics, no right note durations. I'm sorry if this sounds very harsh, but you kind of deserved after saying you play this better than Barenboim.
Posted by: mr_roberts_z

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/13/09 05:22 PM

Just to add to this:

Quote:
You made plenty of mistakes, pauses (searching for the keys), no dynamics, no right note durations.


Also, completely over-pedaled. Incorrectly timed all over the place. Most of the notes were more wrong than right. Also, a Beethoven "expert" would never play only the Grave.

Have we been trolled?
Posted by: Janus K. Sachs

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/14/09 02:43 AM

Originally Posted By: mr_roberts_z
Have we been trolled?
Is that a rhetorical question?
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/14/09 02:07 PM

I like this dicussion. There are lot of piano players all Beethoven specialist, but chief is very special or not?
Big dicussion is always good , otherwise I sleep in when sombody play this Sonata. I follow my line.
You see same trolls over here?
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/14/09 05:06 PM

This guy is just to weird for me...
Posted by: Ludwig23

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/14/09 05:52 PM

Your recording was horrible! Too many wrong notes; over-pedaled; Distasteful interpretation of Beethoven.

And here you are telling me that 18 year-olds can't play Beethoven op 90, which is way up the difficulty ladder compared to the Pathetique.

Your words don't match up to your actions. You may have fooled some people, but you can't fool all of us at the same time chief.

Good day to you sir!
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/14/09 06:12 PM

Roll over Beethoven. frown

Steven
Posted by: PartyPianist

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/14/09 10:50 PM

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating". I will make some recordings at some point. I will try and include one or a number of Beethoven's sonatas.

It is more likely I will record Haydn's grand C Minor Sonata, Albeniz El Peurto from Iberia, Mozart's D major variations, Liszt's Tarantella Di Bravura, Bach's G major prelude/fugue from Well Tempered Claviar book 2 and Prokofiev's 2nd Piano Sonata.

Jan Briane Astom - everyone NEEDS coaching. Find a closer teacher! I play the Pathetique very fast - possibly faster than Barenboim or Scnabel [and I have problems with it as I tried to master it before I was ready - but I am overcoming them]. Ensuring a strict "pp" for the 'allegro di molto e con brio' as a base, provides the springboard for the dynamism required for a true "con brio". A "p" base is too loud. Apply this rule to the openning movt of the 5th C minor sonata as well. Back to Op 13 - treat the phrasing inflection from brs 146 (movt 1) with great care. Also the mordents must be clearly separated to allow the requested slur.

Good luck if you take this one on;)
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/15/09 02:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Chiefci
http://www.clavio.org/
First listen here Pathetique Part 1 in Music Playlist chief.
Next I will record the first movevement compleate, than we talking angain.


I'm not ashamed of saying that that thing is positively the worst Beethoven I have ever heard. And to cap it all off? A horribly out-of-tune piano. Go toot your horn somewhere else.
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/15/09 03:17 AM

And are you next in line to follow chiefci, or are you going to put up a decent version of the pathetique? And I disagree on the pp thing, just play it p, so it is written, so it shall be played. Builds up the tention alot more too imo, I have no idea why a pp would make it more with 'spirit', and beethoven didn't either.
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/15/09 07:32 AM

Sorry but now I feel hate or love. That is the what I mean.
I like it anymore, good discussion. You are God of Beethoven. What is the correct playing of this Sonata? Show me a Record of Ludwig van Beethoven, than I will agree with him.
Posted by: mr_roberts_z

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/15/09 07:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Chiefci
Sorry but now I feel hate or love. That is the what I mean.
I like it anymore, good discussion. You are God of Beethoven. What is the correct playing of this Sonata? Show me a Record of Ludwig van Beethoven, than I will agree with him.


So as a Beethoven expert, you think your playing is closest to that of Beethoven's own? Or just "better than Barenboim"?
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/15/09 07:59 AM

Chiefci, did you think beethoven wrote those note durations, the timing, the rests, the dynamic indications, all just so you could do whatever you liked? Or might those be written so that you could understand how he intends you to play it?
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/15/09 09:12 AM

Yes, I think Beethoven is an Cyclon, and he like what other people play. I like it too. So listen and open your ears.
Posted by: Chiefci

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/15/09 09:34 AM

Now. sorry Im am very angry. I am blocked in Piano Network.
That is not ok. I feel not guilty.
Till you can see may Playlist. Dany Boy is very good.
Posted by: Victor25

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/15/09 09:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Chiefci
Yes, I think Beethoven is an Cyclon, and he like what other people play. I like it too. So listen and open your ears.


Actually he was known for not liking all interpretations of his music. That is very likely the main reason why he and Johann Nepomuk Hummel were no longer friends.

I'm not saying he would beat you up after playing the pathetique like that for him, but a slap and a 'bist du krank in deine kopf' would be appropriate.
Posted by: Kreisler

Re: Advice for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 27 op 90 - 10/15/09 09:50 AM

Thread closed.

Signal-to-noise ratio is making my brain hurt.