To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy

Posted by: StupidQuestion

To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 09:29 AM

Hi. I registered here to post this stupid question.

How would you rank the 4 Ballades, 4 Bcherzos, the Barcarole and the Fantasy (in F minor) in the order of preference? Which piece you like the best, which second best and so on.

Those 10 pieces can be considered a group. Playing them lasts about 7-13 minutes. That makes them bigger than Waltzes, Nocturnes, Etudes etc, but they are not on the same league than Sonatas or Piano Concertos.

If you are to post your opinion, a simple list is just fine for me. Explanations are appreciated but not necessary.
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 09:58 AM

I don't want to call your question stupid, but when I saw the title of this thread I did think that you were proposing to rank this collection of compositions by difficulty. That would have some practical value that I really don't see in a hypothetical listing by "preference."

I think everyone familiar with Chopin has favored categories of works, preferred pieces within each category, and an opinion about the appeal of the standalone pieces as well. But to try to grade the collective diversity of pieces on a sliding scale of personal allure doesn't quite make sense to me!

Steven
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 10:04 AM

Steven, would you care to rank them by difficulty? That's what I was hoping for when I clicked on the thread.
Posted by: Varcon

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 10:05 AM

I agree with Steven that the diversity of preferences would be somewhat useless as that depends too much on personal taste. Ranking by difficulty might make more sense tho that too could be very questionable since what is difficult for one person might present little problem to another.
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 10:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Varcon
I agree with Steven that the diversity of preferences would be somewhat useless as that depends too much on personal taste.


"Useless" maybe, but "of interest to some" probably. I think people constantly discuss which pieces they like/dislike and ranking them is another version of this. I would say that trying to put them in a precise 1-10 order is not possible for some, including me.

Faves: Barcarolle, Scherzo #4, Ballade #4
Least faves: Scherzo #2, Ballade #1
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 10:41 AM

Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Steven, would you care to rank them by difficulty? That's what I was hoping for when I clicked on the thread.

I don't know if I'm up to it! All the usual caveats would apply about different people of different backgrounds and skills having different experiences of what's relatively hard or relatively manageable, that's for sure. smile

Even so, there's such a variety of tempi and pianistic devices that such a ranking seems like an arbitrary mixture of hard apples and tough oranges. (Also, despite my familiarity with these pieces, I haven't actively worked on the majority of them; my assessment would be based more on impression than experience).

Another thought occurs to me as well. The OP obviously set the parameter here of these 10 pieces exclusively, but a list of Chopin's compositions that are bigger than the Waltzes, Nocturnes, Etudes and Preludes but not multi-movement works like the Sonatas or Concertos would be a longer one than just these ten; notably missing are the final three Polonaises and the Allegro de Concert.

And what about the Rondos, the Bolero and the Op. 12 Variations? And if we include those early yet lengthy works, perhaps we should include the four Concert Pieces and the Cello Polonaise as well.

Steven
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 11:01 AM

Quick answer - could elaborate more later:

From most difficult to least - IMO, and mostly on technical merits:

- Fantasie
- 4th Scherzo
- 4th Ballade
- Barcarolle
- 2nd Scherzo
- 1st Ballade
- 2nd Ballade
- 3rd Scherzo
- 1st Scherzo
- 3rd Ballade


Personal preference from like the most to like the least:

- 4th Scherzo
- 3rd Ballade
- Barcarolle
- 2nd Ballade
- 2nd Scherzo
- 3rd Scherzo
- 4th Ballade
- 1st Ballade
- 1st Scherzo
- Fantasie
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 11:05 AM

Dupe
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 11:07 AM

This is my difficulty ranking in order of increasing challenge:

Scherzo Op. 20
Barcarolle Op. 60
Ballade Op. 47
Scherzo Op. 31
Scherzo Op. 39
Ballade Op. 23
Fantaisie Op. 49
Scherzo Op. 54
Ballade Op. 38
Ballade Op. 52

A ranking by preference is impossible for me.

Steven
Posted by: izaldu

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 11:17 AM

Preference

Barcarolle
Ballade 1
Ballade 2
Ballade 4

Not that familiar with the rest.
Posted by: carey

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 11:21 AM

Phlebas -

I find it interesting that you rank the Fantasy as being the most difficult. I've performed the Fantasy and find it easier than several of the other compositions on the list - all of which, with the exception of Ballade No. 2, I have yet to learn. (I've dabbled with most of them, however.)

Just curious - is your ranking based on your personal experience in performing each of these pieces - or is it simply based on your perception of their difficulty?
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 11:27 AM

Originally Posted By: carey
Phlebas -

I find it interesting that you rank the Fantasy as being the most difficult. I've performed the Fantasy and find it easier than several of the other compositions on the list - all of which, with the exception of Ballade No. 2, I have yet to learn. (I've dabbled with most of them, however.)

Just curious - is your ranking based on your personal experience in performing each of these pieces - or is it simply based on your perception of their difficulty?



It's based on some personal experience (I've played the 2nd Ballade, 4th Ballade, and 3rd Scherzo), having read through the others a lot, etc.
Also, it's based what I would find difficult.

If you've played the Fantasie, then I would defer to you, but I think it is difficult to perform well - keep it structurally together, etc. I also think the passagework is fairly difficult. I would think the Fantasie takes some more stamina - compared to some of the others on the list. Did you find that to be the case?




Posted by: StupidQuestion

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 11:44 AM

I was simply asking for opinions. There is no question mark at the end of the name of the topic, because there was no space for it. This kind of listing might be stupid and empty and whatever, but it is something I have always done.

These 10 pieces are also considered a kind of a group by the Chopin Competition bosses. At the stage II, a contestant must play one piece out of these 10 pieces.
Also, I don't know the Rondos or Bolero so I cannot include them here.

I myself cannot answer much to my own initial question. Ballade 3 and Barcarole are my two faves, and Ballade 4 might be 3rd favourite, although I'm quite sick about it right now.
Scherzo 1 is easily the weakest imo, but I cannot evaluate much the rest of the pack.
Posted by: Sparkler

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 12:00 PM

I've played only about half of these, (couple of ballade and scherzi) but of all I've played, I have to say that the Barcarolle has remained the most challenging for me technically and musically, and is also my favorite. I think the Barcarolle is hard to play well.

I think for me, the Barcarolle may be the best thing Chopin ever wrote. There are a couple of sections in there that make me weep!
Posted by: akonow

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 12:20 PM

I like the first Scherzo, the third Ballade, and the Fantasy the best but I'm usually in the minority when I say that. frown

I didn't think the Fantasy looked as difficult as the ballades. I wanted to learn it senior year... now I'm having second thoughts!
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 01:11 PM

Originally Posted By: akonow
I didn't think the Fantasy looked as difficult as the ballades. I wanted to learn it senior year... now I'm having second thoughts!

Don't have second thoughts! I share carey's surprise that the Fantaisie's difficulties are frequently overrated. While the connecting passages with the triplet figures that ascend and then descend in consecutive measures were a challenge for me, as was nailing the spots with fairly large octave jumps in contrary motion, I had no other significant problems.

Stamina doesn't seem like an important issue because the duration of the piece is offset by such a variety of textures; furthermore, the Lento sostenuto is a well-placed opportunity to relax and recharge. And of course the piece is difficult to play well—like every other one in that group. smile

I said I wouldn't rank them by preference, but I'll concede that the Fantaisie would be very near the top of my list. I think it contains some of Chopin's very finest music, and learning it was consistently absorbing and rewarding. Believe me, it's a lot of fun to practice and to play.

Steven
Posted by: pianoloverus

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 01:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Sparkler

I think for me, the Barcarolle may be the best thing Chopin ever wrote. There are a couple of sections in there that make me weep!


I remember a master class with Fialkowska where she more or less said that she felt the last pages of the Barcarolle were the greatest passages Chopin wrote.
Posted by: izaldu

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 03:32 PM

I'm with sparkler on this one. Come to think of it, the Barcarolle is probably my favourite Chopin piece. And with this piece, i enjoy such different interpretations as Sofronitsky's from Zimerman's can be, something that doesn't happen to me with that many works.
Posted by: Kreisler

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 03:39 PM

My favorites are the 1st Ballade, 3rd Scherzo, and Fantasy.
Posted by: carey

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 03:42 PM

Per Phlebas - "If you've played the Fantasie, then I would defer to you, but I think it is difficult to perform well - keep it structurally together, etc. I also think the passagework is fairly difficult. I would think the Fantasie takes some more stamina - compared to some of the others on the list. Did you find that to be the case?

Phlebas - I concur completely with Steven's response above.
Posted by: Kreisler

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 03:42 PM

...and on the subject of the third scherzo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl9MvizSf78
Posted by: Chopin4life

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 03:46 PM

Thats the best version of the 3rd Scherzo I've heard in my opinion. The only piece on the list I've learnt it the 2nd Scherzo (I'm almost finished with it now) and that for me was pretty damn hard! My favourites are the 4th and 1st ballade, and the 2nd and 3rd Scherzo.
Posted by: AZNpiano

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 04:01 PM

I like the Barcarolle, Ballades 1, 3, and 4 and Scherzo No. 3.

The Fantasy bores me. Scherzo No. 2 is cool, but _way_ overplayed.

The most daunting one of the group is Ballade No. 4 in terms of technique and musicality required to pull it off. I don't think I'll ever come around to learning that one. That's the one I revere more than love.

There are passages in Scherzo No. 3 that're insane (the fast octaves--yikes!).
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 04:35 PM

Originally Posted By: carey
Per Phlebas - "If you've played the Fantasie, then I would defer to you, but I think it is difficult to perform well - keep it structurally together, etc. I also think the passagework is fairly difficult. I would think the Fantasie takes some more stamina - compared to some of the others on the list. Did you find that to be the case?

Phlebas - I concur completely with Steven's response above.


Thanks. I'll have to read through it some more to see if I change my mind.

I've seen people play a very good Barcarolle, or 4th scherzo, and seem overwhelmed by the Fantasie.
Posted by: Emanuel Ravelli

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 08:45 PM

From beginning to end, the Barcarolle stands alone in my estimation (except perhaps for the 3rd Sonata) as the most wonderful composition of Chopin. It took me months to get it under my fingers, but I was so happy listening as it gradually took shape that I never got tired of practicing it. I also agree with others that a list of personal preferences in this group of some of his greatest works isn't very useful, so I'll stick with my list of difficulty, starting with the least challenging:

-- Fantasie
-- 3rd Ballade
-- 1st Scherzo
-- 2nd Scherzo
-- 2nd Ballade
-- Barcarolle
-- 1st Ballade
-- 3rd Scherzo
-- 4th Scherzo
-- 4th Ballade
Posted by: akonow

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 09:23 PM

Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
The Fantasy bores me.


Agh! The pain!!! wink

I have to admit I thought it was boring at first too but that's because I didn't listen to the whole thing.
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 11:11 PM

Originally Posted By: akonow
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
The Fantasy bores me.

I have to admit I thought it was boring at first too but that's because I didn't listen to the whole thing.

Dang, there's no accounting for what we find fascinating or boring.

Chopin's Fantaisie is one of my earliest musical memories. My grandmother would take me to rummage sales, where I would pick out 78-rpm records and bring them home to play on my portable record player (the kind that had a cartridge that flipped over with one stylus for 33 and 45 rpm and a different one for 78).

I loved the piece from the first time I heard it, and tried to convince my mother that the major-key theme occurring three times sounded more like butterflies than that "Butterfly Etude" on a different 78. My little neighborhood friends were less than delighted, and the stage was set for suffering social stigma in sandbox society.

Fifty years later, I'm still loving the Fantaisie—and rummage sales, thrift stores and swap meets, too, though eBay makes it so much more convenient—and still enduring the ongoing ostracism of an outcast outsider. smile

Originally Posted By: akonow
Agh! The pain!!! wink

Memories ... may be beautiful, and yet ....

Steven
Posted by: akonow

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/30/09 11:22 PM

Originally Posted By: sotto voce
My little neighborhood friends were less than delighted, and the stage was set for suffering social stigma in sandbox society

There, there. I prefer Chopin to sandboxes anyway! On a side note, it does seem that a lot of the people I've spoken with seem to have been ostracized for their love of classical music while I haven't had so much as a "classical music is boring" out of even my acquaintances. Oh well, that's another topic for another day...
Posted by: AZNpiano

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 01:57 AM

Originally Posted By: akonow
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
The Fantasy bores me.


Agh! The pain!!! wink

I have to admit I thought it was boring at first too but that's because I didn't listen to the whole thing.


Well, I played the Fantasy in high school. It's not a technically-demanding piece. Chopin wrote stuff that's more interesting. Much more interesting.
Posted by: akonow

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 03:06 AM

I've personally felt that it could be his magnum opus.
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 09:10 AM

Originally Posted By: akonow
I've personally felt that it could be his magnum opus.

I think it's a worthy contender among a handful of other worthy candidates. (I recall a "Chopin's Magnum Opus" thread a while back.)

Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Well, I played the Fantasy in high school. It's not a technically-demanding piece.

I'm glad to hear you had such little difficulty considering your problems with 10/1. Still, there's a big difference between saying you didn't find it technically demanding, or that its difficulty tends to be overstated and overrated, and saying that it's "not a technically-demanding piece." That's an enormous exaggeration—pure hyperbole and patently absurd, IMNSHO.

Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Chopin wrote stuff that's more interesting. Much more interesting.

There's no accounting for taste; what passes you ain't for you.

Even when one's personal opinion is obviously such, making that clear goes a long way toward mitigating a tone that may otherwise seem smug or high-handed. (If you read the thread about Hamelin, this issue is addressed at greater length.) Acronyms like IMO, IMHO and even IMNSHO do exist for a reason. smile

Steven
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 10:46 AM

Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: akonow


[quote=AZNpiano]Chopin wrote stuff that's more interesting. Much more interesting.

There's no accounting for taste; what passes you ain't for you.

Even when one's personal opinion is obviously such, making that clear goes a long way toward mitigating a tone that may otherwise seem smug or high-handed. (If you read the thread about Hamelin, this issue is addressed at greater length.) Acronmyms like IMO, IMHO and even IMNSHO do exist for a reason. smile

Steven


I don't really understand that. If someone says a piece it's uninteresting, then it is obviously their opinion. There's no need for any "IMO," etc. People should just express their opinions. Saying "IMO" is just redundant.
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 11:00 AM

I'm beginning to wonder of some posters aren't confusing the Fantasy on Polish Airs with the Fantasy Impromptu. That would explain a few things.

(Frycek, darting back into her lair)
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 11:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Chopin wrote stuff that's more interesting. Much more interesting.

There's no accounting for taste; what passes you ain't for you.

Even when one's personal opinion is obviously such, making that clear goes a long way toward mitigating a tone that may otherwise seem smug or high-handed. (If you read the thread about Hamelin, this issue is addressed at greater length.) Acronyms like IMO, IMHO and even IMNSHO do exist for a reason. smile

Steven

I don't really understand that. If someone says a piece it's uninteresting, then it is obviously their opinion. There's no need for any "IMO," etc. People should just express their opinions. Saying "IMO" is just redundant.

If people cannot distinguish between fact and opinion, perhaps they shouldn't "just express" themselves. It can be inflammatory, and I'm sure you know others agree if you read the Hamelin thread. I would expect a moderator to stand up for forum etiquette rather than deny the need for it.

It seems to me you're just taking the opportunity to single me out (yet again) for unwarranted criticism based on your well-documented personal animus. How predictable. I imagine that if it were I who had written what AZNpiano wrote, you would be jumping all over me for that instead of criticizing me for questioning it.

Hate the messenger, hate the message. We see it in national politics, and we see it here. You're a moderator, and it's abusive.

Steven
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 11:12 AM

Originally Posted By: -Frycek
I'm beginning to wonder of some posters aren't confusing the Fantasy on Polish Airs with the Fantasy Impromptu. That would explain a few things.

Wait! You mean we're not taking about the Polonaise-Fantasy? smile

Steven
Posted by: -Frycek

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 11:28 AM

Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
I'm beginning to wonder of some posters aren't confusing the Fantasy on Polish Airs with the Fantasy Impromptu. That would explain a few things.

Wait! You mean we're not taking about the Polonaise-Fantasy? smile

Steven


Told ya' I was confused. wink
Posted by: buck2202

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 11:38 AM

Oh, people, please don't all start calling that one boring now, too. shocked The Fantaisie and Polonaise-Fantaisie have long been two of my favorites.

I have heard a few thoroughly unconvincing performances of the Fantaisie, though. The most recent was at the Cleveland Int'l Piano Competition this year. I was really excited to hear it, because I had just heard about 20 minutes of Ligeti etudes. Now THAT'S boring stuff. wink <-- (indicates joking, IMO-ing, or just total making-stuff-up-ing)
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 11:51 AM

FWIW, I love the Chopin Fantasie, and have trouble listening to it enough. You people who think it's boring don't know what you are missing. smile
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 12:23 PM

Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Chopin wrote stuff that's more interesting. Much more interesting.

There's no accounting for taste; what passes you ain't for you.

Even when one's personal opinion is obviously such, making that clear goes a long way toward mitigating a tone that may otherwise seem smug or high-handed. (If you read the thread about Hamelin, this issue is addressed at greater length.) Acronyms like IMO, IMHO and even IMNSHO do exist for a reason. smile

Steven

I don't really understand that. If someone says a piece it's uninteresting, then it is obviously their opinion. There's no need for any "IMO," etc. People should just express their opinions. Saying "IMO" is just redundant.

If people cannot distinguish between fact and opinion, perhaps they shouldn't "just express" themselves. It can be inflammatory, and I'm sure you know others agree if you read the Hamelin thread. I would expect a moderator to stand up for forum etiquette rather than deny the need for it.

It seems to me you're just taking the opportunity to single me out (yet again) for unwarranted criticism based on your well-documented personal animus. How predictable. I imagine that if it were I who had written what AZNpiano wrote, you would be jumping all over me for that instead of criticizing me for questioning it.

Hate the messenger, hate the message. We see it in national politics, and we see it here. You're a moderator, and it's abusive.

Steven

There's noting inflammatory about saying the the Chopin Fantasie is uninteresting.

I have no opinion of you whatsoever. You're the one who seems to have the problem.

If you want to discuss the merits of my post, go ahead. Otherwise, you're just getting petulant.
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 12:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
FWIW, I love the Chopin Fantasie, and have trouble listening to it enough. You people who think it's boring don't know what you are missing. smile


It's one of my least favorite pieces of Chopin. I respect it as one of his great works, but always manage to listen to something else.
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 12:27 PM

Good for you. smile
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 12:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
There's noting inflammatory about saying the the Chopin Fantasie is uninteresting.

I have no opinion of you whatsoever. You're the one who seems to have the problem.

Otherwise, you're just getting petulant.

Oh, nothing inflammatory about that, is there? In my opinion, your tone and your behavior—now and in the past—is inexcusable for a monitor. The worst of it is that because of your status, you cannot be Ignored.

You said you didn't understand my comments about netiquette. Why in the world would netiquette need to be explained to a monitor?

Steven
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 12:53 PM

Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
There's noting inflammatory about saying the the Chopin Fantasie is uninteresting.

I have no opinion of you whatsoever. You're the one who seems to have the problem.

Otherwise, you're just getting petulant.

Oh, nothing inflammatory about that, is there? In my opinion, your tone and your behavior—now and in the past—is inexcusable for a monitor. The worst of it is that because of your status, you cannot be Ignored.

You said you didn't understand my comments about netiquette. Why in the world would netiquette need to be explained to a monitor?

Steven


What is inflammatory about saying the Chopin Fantasy is uninteresting? It's just an opinion. And, how is stating that opinion in the way it was done a breach of forum rules?
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 01:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
What is inflammatory about saying the Chopin Fantasy is uninteresting? It's just an opinion. And, how is stating that opinion in the way it was done a breach of forum rules?

It's not, and that's plainly not what I said in either instance.

Twisting other people's words is the refuge of the rabbit hole. Any port in a storm, I guess. frown

Steven
Posted by: Opus_Maximus

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 01:11 PM

I love them all, they are not only amongst my favorite Chopin works, but my favorite pieces of music of all time. Considering I like the more or less equally as a group them all, if I had to subcategorize my love from favorite to least :

Ballade no. 4
Fantasy in F minor
Scherzo no 4
Scherzo no 2
Ballade no 2
Scherzo no 1
Ballade no 1
Barcarolle
Ballade no 3
Scherzo no 3

.....Since I'm stuck at home - a few interesting personal quips about some of them..

While not my favorite FAVORITE piece - if I had 20 minutes left to live and was given the opportunity to listen to just one final thing, it would be undoubtably the Scherzo no 4. There is something about this piece - the subtle melancholic middle section, the playful, carefree sweep of the outer parts, and the way the whole piece suggests, to me, the attitude one should have when departing from life: Cheerful, forgiving, upward looking, and retrospective.

As much as I love it, I have, horrifically, become emotionally numb to the first Ballade. When I was 10, I would sit next to my CD player, tear-eyed and dumbfoudned at the piece, hitting the rewind button over the same few bars in the piece 15 or 20 times every day. Perhaps because of this early obsession, perhaps because it has nearly become the deafault conservatory undergrad audition piece, perhaps because it is played too often and often badly - I just can't feel anything for it anymore, so my ranking of it may be affected by this.

I think the greatest work, almost unarguably, is the 4th ballade. The Scope of emotions, mastery of the counterpoint, variety of beautiful melodies and almost impressionistic textures in this piece place it at the top. I can't bring to mind any other piece in the piano literature that captures the same type of intensity this ballade does at the crashing chords that are before the coda. John Ogdon likened this piece to Fitzgerald' "the last Tycoon", in it's "romantic communion of unparalled proportions."
Posted by: eweiss

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 01:17 PM

Capt. Kirk says...



What an awesome thread! And ... KHAN!!
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
What is inflammatory about saying the Chopin Fantasy is uninteresting? It's just an opinion. And, how is stating that opinion in the way it was done a breach of forum rules?

It's not, and that's plainly not what I said in either instance.

Twisting other people's words is the refuge of the rabbit hole. Any port in a storm, I guess. frown

Steven


Interesting, since you're the one who introduced the word inflammatory. What did you mean then, since it had to do with a stated opinion about a piece?

You seem to be getting into an argumentative mode. I'm simply making a point that it's ok for someone to express an opinion in a way they see fit - within the parameters of the rules, of course.
Posted by: Varcon

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 01:31 PM

4 Ballades, 4 Bcherzos, the Barcarole and the Fantasy (in F minor) in the order of preference?

I've played Ballades 3 & 4, Scherzos 1, 2, & 3, and the Fantasy.

As my moods change so does my preference for one of the pieces. They are all wonderful pieces tho I'm not too fond of the second ballade. It's nice but I prefer almost everything else to that. The Barcarole is nice too, but have no inclination to play it. I would rather just listen to it.

I think, for difficulty, the 4th ballade and Fantasy would top my list. That does not imply that the other pieces do not have difficulties as well. I was enthralled by Hofmann's 1st Scherzo and Barere's 3rd Scherzo and 1st Ballade. Anyway, I think the choice of favorites is personal as to quality and difficulty and I choose to just enjoy all of them as beautiful pieces I like to work on and play.
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 01:33 PM

Interesting, Varcon. What did you find difficult about the Fantasy that you would rank it as one of the more difficult?
Posted by: Varcon

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 01:48 PM

Phlebas:

Don't you think they all have difficulties of varying degrees? And technical abilities vary, too, from one individual to another. Rare is the person who has a 'complete' technique in every aspect and that means technical facility as well as interpretive ability.

I think, to answer your question, it is that the Fantasy is a bit longer and perhaps took me longer to work through it. I will admit to being a LOUSY sight-reader and defer to almost anyone in that area. I continually work on improving my technique tho and I am pretty good in that aspect. But I take my time in learning to play a piece and and use the metronome to keep it under control until nearing a date to perform and then I do drop the metronome but keep up hands separately and SLOW< SLOW< SLOW practice.
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 02:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Interesting, since you're the one who introduced the word inflammatory. What did you mean then, since it had to do with a stated opinion about a piece?

You seem to be getting into an argumentative mode. I'm simply making a point that it's ok for someone to express an opinion in a way they see fit - within the parameters of the rules, of course.

You claim that "[p]eople should just express their opinions," yet you didn't seem to care for or "understand" my opinion that people should make clear when they're offering an opinion versus a statement of fact. That's standard netiquette, it's a social nicety, and it promotes discussion instead of antagonism. Again, these points were made in the Hamelin thread.

When someone says, as here, that the Fantaisie is "not a technically-demanding piece," that reads to me like a statement of fact. To anyone who's unacquainted with the piece and therefore doesn't recognize the absurdity of that declaration, it would be taken as a statement of fact. If it wasn't meant as one, how hard would it have been to add the words for me?

Consider "Chopin wrote stuff that's more interesting. Much more interesting." That reads like a statement of fact, too, though unless the writer has the credibility of a professional critic, one might not give it such weight. As a statement of opinion—and coupled with the previous suggestion that the Fantaisie is a high-school-level technical trifle—it comes across as supercilious. How hard would it have been to add the words to me? Without the disclaimer that it's just an opinion, it's inflammatory.

This is at least the third time that you have taken issue with me for addressing what I believed to be improper or wrong and chosen instead to defend the impropriety. You state your opinion that you don't like my opinion; when I defend myself, you depict me as "petulant" and "argumentative." That's inflammatory.

You seem to think "it's ok for someone to express an opinion in a way they see fit - within the parameters of the rules, of course," except when that someone is me. You conflate "forum rules" with the simple and long-established conventions of netiquette that act as a social lubricant where the written word is relied upon in the absence of any other kinds of nuances or cues. You have defended violations of netiquette and even forum rules concerning vulgarity when it meant you could take a cheap shot at me instead. You have distorted my words to give cover to your agenda.

I think everyone should expect better from a moderator.

Steven
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 02:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Varcon
Phlebas:

Don't you think they all have difficulties of varying degrees? And technical abilities vary, too, from one individual to another. Rare is the person who has a 'complete' technique in every aspect and that means technical facility as well as interpretive ability.

I think, to answer your question, it is that the Fantasy is a bit longer and perhaps took me longer to work through it. I will admit to being a LOUSY sight-reader and defer to almost anyone in that area. I continually work on improving my technique tho and I am pretty good in that aspect. But I take my time in learning to play a piece and and use the metronome to keep it under control until nearing a date to perform and then I do drop the metronome but keep up hands separately and SLOW< SLOW< SLOW practice.


Certainly, they all have difficulties. I hope I didn't imply that they didn't. Any of the ones I played took a lot of work.

I was just wondering what aspect of the Fantasy you found more difficult. Thanks you. I also think the length of the Fantasy might add to its difficulty.
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 02:42 PM

Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Interesting, since you're the one who introduced the word inflammatory. What did you mean then, since it had to do with a stated opinion about a piece?

You seem to be getting into an argumentative mode. I'm simply making a point that it's ok for someone to express an opinion in a way they see fit - within the parameters of the rules, of course.

You claim that "[p]eople should just express their opinions," yet you didn't seem to care for or "understand" my opinion that people should make clear when they're offering an opinion versus a statement of fact. That's standard netiquette, it's a social nicety, and it promotes discussion instead of antagonism. Again, these points were made in the Hamelin thread.

When someone says, as here, that the Fantaisie is "not a technically-demanding piece," that reads to me like a statement of fact. To anyone who's unacquainted with the piece and therefore doesn't recognize the absurdity of that declaration, it would be taken as a statement of fact. If it wasn't meant as one, how hard would it have been to add the words for me?

Consider "Chopin wrote stuff that's more interesting. Much more interesting." That reads like a statement of fact, too, though unless the writer has the credibility of a professional critic, one might not give it such weight. As a statement of opinion—and coupled with the previous suggestion that the Fantaisie is a high-school-level technical trifle—it comes across as supercilious. How hard would it have been to add the words to me? Without the disclaimer that it's just an opinion, it's inflammatory.

This is at least the third time that you have taken issue with me for addressing what I believed to be improper or wrong and chosen instead to defend the impropriety. You state your opinion that you don't like my opinion; when I defend myself, you depict me as "petulant" and "argumentative." That's inflammatory.

You seem to think "it's ok for someone to express an opinion in a way they see fit - within the parameters of the rules, of course," except when that someone is me. You conflate "forum rules" with the simple and long-established conventions of netiquette that act as a social lubricant where the written word is relied upon in the absence of any other kinds of nuances or cues. You have defended violations of netiquette and even forum rules concerning vulgarity when it meant you could take a cheap shot at me instead. You have distorted my words to give cover to your agenda.

I think everyone should expect better from a moderator.

Steven


Sv,

Get off your high horse. I argue with a lot of people here. Don't primp yourself into thinking you're singled out at all. That's not the case.

You have the right to your opinion. So does everyone else. It's not your job to set the tone here. There's a variety of posting styles here, and it's presumptuous of you to go around correcting people.

That's the last thing I have to say to you on the subject.
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 02:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Sv,

Get off your high horse. I argue with a lot of people here. Don't primp yourself into thinking you're singled out at all. That's not the case.

You have the right to your opinion. So does everyone else. It's not your job to set the tone here. There's a variety of posting styles here, and it's presumptuous of you to go around correcting people.

That's the last thing I have to say to you on the subject.

Q.E.D., and I hope it's the last thing you ever have to say to me about any subject.

If you can tell me to "get off my high horse" in public, how come I couldn't tell you what to do in private without you crying to Frank about it?

I wonder how high your horse was when you addressed me with phrases like "Nice try," "Face it" and "Guess what?" the last time you picked a fight with me—and how high it is now saying things like "Don't primp yourself."

What's "presumptuous," in my opinion, is you telling me about "my job" considering your tenuous grasp of the responsibilities, authority and circumspection appropriate to a moderator.

Steven
Posted by: Varcon

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 03:29 PM

To rate the difficulty I would have to get the music out again as it has been some time since I played it. The descending triplet figures were especially annoying with the intervalic distance. In the 4th Ballade the double note passage is especially difficult to control the balance between the melodic intent and the lower notes to keep from making it mush.

Anyway, I enjoy working on the difficulties and do get frustrated at times while doing doing it!! But practice is 'fun' to me and the challenge is good too. I think a face to face discussion would be best as then one can do a 'show and tell' on the various facets of difficulty and technique.
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 06:08 PM

Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Sv,

Get off your high horse. I argue with a lot of people here. Don't primp yourself into thinking you're singled out at all. That's not the case.

You have the right to your opinion. So does everyone else. It's not your job to set the tone here. There's a variety of posting styles here, and it's presumptuous of you to go around correcting people.

That's the last thing I have to say to you on the subject.



Q.E.D., and I hope it's the last thing you ever have to say to me about any subject.

If you can tell me to "get off my high horse" in public, how come I couldn't tell you what to do in private without you crying to Frank about it?

I wonder how high your horse was when you addressed me with phrases like "Nice try," "Face it" and "Guess what?" the last time you picked a fight with me—and how high it is now saying things like "Don't primp yourself."

What's "presumptuous," in my opinion, is you telling me about "my job" considering your tenuous grasp of the responsibilities, authority and circumspection appropriate to a moderator.

Steven


/ignore
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 06:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Sv,

Get off your high horse. I argue with a lot of people here. Don't primp yourself into thinking you're singled out at all. That's not the case.

You have the right to your opinion. So does everyone else. It's not your job to set the tone here. There's a variety of posting styles here, and it's presumptuous of you to go around correcting people.

That's the last thing I have to say to you on the subject.



Q.E.D., and I hope it's the last thing you ever have to say to me about any subject.

If you can tell me to "get off my high horse" in public, how come I couldn't tell you what to do in private without you crying to Frank about it?

I wonder how high your horse was when you addressed me with phrases like "Nice try," "Face it" and "Guess what?" the last time you picked a fight with me—and how high it is now saying things like "Don't primp yourself."

What's "presumptuous," in my opinion, is you telling me about "my job" considering your tenuous grasp of the responsibilities, authority and circumspection appropriate to a moderator.

Steven


/ignore

Q.E.D.
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 07:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Sv,

Get off your high horse. I argue with a lot of people here. Don't primp yourself into thinking you're singled out at all. That's not the case.

You have the right to your opinion. So does everyone else. It's not your job to set the tone here. There's a variety of posting styles here, and it's presumptuous of you to go around correcting people.

That's the last thing I have to say to you on the subject.



Q.E.D., and I hope it's the last thing you ever have to say to me about any subject.

If you can tell me to "get off my high horse" in public, how come I couldn't tell you what to do in private without you crying to Frank about it?

I wonder how high your horse was when you addressed me with phrases like "Nice try," "Face it" and "Guess what?" the last time you picked a fight with me—and how high it is now saying things like "Don't primp yourself."

What's "presumptuous," in my opinion, is you telling me about "my job" considering your tenuous grasp of the responsibilities, authority and circumspection appropriate to a moderator.

Steven


/ignore


I can't help but think that that's a bloody pompous thing for you to say to a user who can't ignore you if he wanted to.
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 08:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
I can't help but think that that's a bloody pompous thing for you to say to a user who can't ignore you if he wanted to.

I wouldn't expect otherwise of a moderator who, in addition to all the abuses of his position I mentioned previously, insults members with impunity, chooses to publicly participate in and escalate a disagreement rather than defuse it, and is openly dismissive of netiquette.

Steven
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 08:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Sv,

Get off your high horse. I argue with a lot of people here. Don't primp yourself into thinking you're singled out at all. That's not the case.

You have the right to your opinion. So does everyone else. It's not your job to set the tone here. There's a variety of posting styles here, and it's presumptuous of you to go around correcting people.

That's the last thing I have to say to you on the subject.



Q.E.D., and I hope it's the last thing you ever have to say to me about any subject.

If you can tell me to "get off my high horse" in public, how come I couldn't tell you what to do in private without you crying to Frank about it?

I wonder how high your horse was when you addressed me with phrases like "Nice try," "Face it" and "Guess what?" the last time you picked a fight with me—and how high it is now saying things like "Don't primp yourself."

What's "presumptuous," in my opinion, is you telling me about "my job" considering your tenuous grasp of the responsibilities, authority and circumspection appropriate to a moderator.

Steven


/ignore


I can't help but think that that's a bloody pompous thing for you to say to a user who can't ignore you if he wanted to.


I said it out in the open.

I don't have anyone on ignore status. You can't really put annoying posters on ignore when you're a moderator. You generally have to read the stupid and/or dysfunctional things they post.
Posted by: Phlebas

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 08:53 PM

Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
I can't help but think that that's a bloody pompous thing for you to say to a user who can't ignore you if he wanted to.

I wouldn't expect otherwise of a moderator who, in addition to all the abuses of his position I mentioned previously, insults members with impunity, chooses to publicly participate in and escalate a disagreement rather than defuse it, and is openly dismissive of netiquette.

Steven


/ignore
Posted by: akonow

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 09:03 PM

Please, gentlemen! I'm sure Chopin didn't intend for his Fantasy to arise such controversy! smile
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 09:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
I can't help but think that that's a bloody pompous thing for you to say to a user who can't ignore you if he wanted to.

I wouldn't expect otherwise of a moderator who, in addition to all the abuses of his position I mentioned previously, insults members with impunity, chooses to publicly participate in and escalate a disagreement rather than defuse it, and is openly dismissive of netiquette.

Steven


/ignore

Continuing to read my posts and responding with /ignore doesn't seem like ignoring me at all.

I guess you don't understand how off-topic all this is, how much you're demonstrating everything I said about your conduct, and how completely inappropriate your actions are for a moderator.

Steven
Posted by: eweiss

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 09:54 PM

Originally Posted By: akonow
Please, gentlemen! I'm sure Chopin didn't intend for his Fantasy to arise such controversy! smile

Indeed. In fact, Chopin says...



Knock it off or I'm gonna go medieval on both your asses.
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 10/31/09 11:32 PM

"Both our asses," huh? I hope Chopin would be discerning enough to go medieval on an abusive moderator rather than his victim. If not ... well, there's a reason for the saying about why one shouldn't argue with a fool.

Steven
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 11/01/09 12:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
I can't help but think that that's a bloody pompous thing for you to say to a user who can't ignore you if he wanted to.

I wouldn't expect otherwise of a moderator who, in addition to all the abuses of his position I mentioned previously, insults members with impunity, chooses to publicly participate in and escalate a disagreement rather than defuse it, and is openly dismissive of netiquette.

Steven


/ignore


I'm beginning to question your qualifications as a moderator. Grow up.
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 11/01/09 12:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Sv,

Get off your high horse. I argue with a lot of people here. Don't primp yourself into thinking you're singled out at all. That's not the case.

You have the right to your opinion. So does everyone else. It's not your job to set the tone here. There's a variety of posting styles here, and it's presumptuous of you to go around correcting people.

That's the last thing I have to say to you on the subject.



Q.E.D., and I hope it's the last thing you ever have to say to me about any subject.

If you can tell me to "get off my high horse" in public, how come I couldn't tell you what to do in private without you crying to Frank about it?

I wonder how high your horse was when you addressed me with phrases like "Nice try," "Face it" and "Guess what?" the last time you picked a fight with me—and how high it is now saying things like "Don't primp yourself."

What's "presumptuous," in my opinion, is you telling me about "my job" considering your tenuous grasp of the responsibilities, authority and circumspection appropriate to a moderator.

Steven


/ignore


I can't help but think that that's a bloody pompous thing for you to say to a user who can't ignore you if he wanted to.


I said it out in the open.

I don't have anyone on ignore status. You can't really put annoying posters on ignore when you're a moderator. You generally have to read the stupid and/or dysfunctional things they post.


The point is we can't ignore you, when you say stupid and/or dysfunctional things. Your behavior in this thread is completely inappropriate for a moderator.
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 11/01/09 01:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Sv,

Get off your high horse. I argue with a lot of people here. Don't primp yourself into thinking you're singled out at all. That's not the case.

You have the right to your opinion. So does everyone else. It's not your job to set the tone here. There's a variety of posting styles here, and it's presumptuous of you to go around correcting people.

That's the last thing I have to say to you on the subject.

Q.E.D., and I hope it's the last thing you ever have to say to me about any subject.

If you can tell me to "get off my high horse" in public, how come I couldn't tell you what to do in private without you crying to Frank about it?

I wonder how high your horse was when you addressed me with phrases like "Nice try," "Face it" and "Guess what?" the last time you picked a fight with me—and how high it is now saying things like "Don't primp yourself."

What's "presumptuous," in my opinion, is you telling me about "my job" considering your tenuous grasp of the responsibilities, authority and circumspection appropriate to a moderator.

Steven

/ignore

I can't help but think that that's a bloody pompous thing for you to say to a user who can't ignore you if he wanted to.

I said it out in the open.

I don't have anyone on ignore status. You can't really put annoying posters on ignore when you're a moderator. You generally have to read the stupid and/or dysfunctional things they post.

Maybe you'd wish to repeat what we did once before when you insulted me "out in the open": I'll send you a PM telling you I think of you, you can run to Frank again and have him threaten to ban me, I'll PM you again with an apology and an earnest effort to have a dialogue about behavior in this forum ... and instead of accepting my apology or even acknowledging my attempt to mend fences and move on amicably, you can simply snub me and ignore it completely again.

It's rare to encounter such graceless and spiteful behavior, but there you have it.

And now the malevolent moderator gets a free pass to use terms like petulant, argumentative, high horse, annoying, stupid and/or dysfunctional to refer to me.

It's mind-boggling!

Steven
Posted by: btb

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 11/01/09 02:31 AM

It could be the start of a gender war (Yikes!) ...

For me IMHO (sorry about that, moderator!) to suggest that only a woman scorned could possibly grow so bitter in fanning a flame-war against a dodgy moderator, who should know better than to "answer back" to a raspy prima donna ... please chaps, let sleeping dogs lie and let’s hear more about good old Chopin.

PS The dame does not have a monopoly on Chopin works ... I do!! (but don’t tell the others).
Posted by: sotto voce

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 11/01/09 07:16 AM

Oh, isn't that amusing, btb! But then you probably think that all gay men are really bitter, scorned women who talk like raspy prima donnas.

However, you may inadvertently have named why the "dodgy moderator" has attacked me repeatedly: maybe he just doesn't like that BIG GAY AVATAR.

Your strategy of blaming the victim is outdated and offensive, so keep your misogyny and homophobia to yourself. Go practice your sightreading or something.

Steven
Posted by: Kreisler

Re: To rank the Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Barcarole and Fantasy - 11/01/09 07:16 AM

Ugh...