New PTG Convention Classes for 2011

Posted by: rysowers

New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/04/10 04:47 PM



Believe it or not, we are already planning our schedule of classes for the 2011 PTG Technical Institute in Kansas City, Missouri. To shake things up and create some intrigue, Institute Director, Marc Poulin has set the goal of having a curriculum of all new classes!

His criteria are thus:

1. A new class or instructor that has never been offered before.
2. A class that has been taught at the chapter or regional level but never at an annual event.
3. A class that is so old that it will SEEM like a brand new class!



While Marc has taken a bit of flak for this theme, I was impressed to see how many instructors at the Las Vegas convention were enthusiastic about the challenge! You could literally see their mental gears turning as they mulled over this idea, and the classes have already started coming in!

This year I would like to use Pianoworld to help develop some ideas for new classes. Since this forum is a mix of PTG and non-PTG piano technology enthusiasts, it will be a terrific venue for this discussion.

I put forth the following questions:

  • What would YOU (yes I mean YOU!) like to see at an annual convention?
  • What classes can we offer that will most benefit the piano playing public?
  • What classes can contribute best to the well being of piano technicians?
  • Is there a particular instructor that needs to be seen? (note: not all instructors have to be PTG members)


Thank you! I look forward to your creative responses!

Ryan Sowers, RPT
Assistant Director
2011 PTG Technical Institute
Kansas City, MI
Posted by: Gene Nelson

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/04/10 06:43 PM

I would really like to see a wood technology class - Bruce Hoadley possibly?
How about an amature rebuilders showcase. Bring in the first complete rebuild for scurtiny by the pros.
In 2005 the regional conference we did at the university we had a dead room in the physics lab. It was a great place for an acoustics class but we could not put it together.
I don't think that Del taught his scale class at a national yet - using his jig thing that demonstrates tone based on wire perameters like diameter, tension and tail length etc.
Posted by: Del

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/04/10 11:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Gene Nelson
....I don't think that Del taught his scale class at a national yet - using his jig thing that demonstrates tone based on wire perameters like diameter, tension and tail length etc.

I have been asked about this but....
The dual mono-chord is somewhat heavy and is difficult (though certainly not impossible) to ship. I did short versions of the class in Denver, Colorado (as part of an all-day seminar) and in Belleview, Washington and found that three hours is just barely adequate to get some of the basic ideas across.

Most recently I did an all-day seminar in Sacramento (where I could drive and haul the equipment with me) that was, I thought, somewhat more successful in large part because I had experienced piano rebuilders (Dale Fox and Brett Dearing) to assist in the switchover between string setups. I’m not sure I’d want to do the class again without this kind of assistance. And I’m undecided about trying to do a presentation featuring the dual mono-chord in a standard three hour class format (i.e., two 1-1/2 hour sessions).

I am planning another three-day in-shop seminar that will incorporate the dual mono-chord as an integral part of the curriculum.

We’ll see.

ddf
Posted by: Dale Fox

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/04/10 11:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Del


I am planning another three-day in-shop seminar that will incorporate the dual mono-chord as an integral part of the curriculum.

We’ll see.

ddf


When?
Posted by: Del

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/05/10 12:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Dale Fox
Originally Posted By: Del


I am planning another three-day in-shop seminar that will incorporate the dual mono-chord as an integral part of the curriculum.

We’ll see.

ddf


When?

When I'm not in Korea or China. I'll let you know.

ddf
Posted by: 88Key_PianoPlayer

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/05/10 03:45 AM

Del, any chance you might be teaching that (maybe a 2 * 1.5 hour version) or any other classes at the 2011 Western/Pacific Conference? I'm still undecided about whether or not I'm going (am hoping to go) but if you're teaching classes there it may(?) help sway my decision in favor of going... if financial issues don't get in the way (like they very nearly did with the convention in Vegas)...
Posted by: Del

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/05/10 12:39 PM

Originally Posted By: 88Key_PianoPlayer
Del, any chance you might be teaching that (maybe a 2 * 1.5 hour version) or any other classes at the 2011 Western/Pacific Conference? I'm still undecided about whether or not I'm going (am hoping to go) but if you're teaching classes there it may(?) help sway my decision in favor of going... if financial issues don't get in the way (like they very nearly did with the convention in Vegas)...

Sorry, I don't know as yet. Depends on timing--will I be in the country? And time--will I have enough time to prepare something useful? And resources--can I afford to make the trip? And being asked.

ddf
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/05/10 01:57 PM

Very good suggestions so far!I just tracked down Professor Hoadley's email address and sent him an invitation. It will be exciting if he can participate!

There was another gentleman who gave a terrific wood technology class years ago at a regional conference. I think his name may have been Lee Josa, but I can't seem to find anything online about him, so I may not have his name quite right. I believe he was a Canadian resident. He also taught a beginning wood carving class that was well received.

Del - There may be someone from Seattle driving to Kansas city. Roger Gable may be one of them - perhaps he could haul your fixtures. I'll check into this.

Another class idea that someone mentioned to me recently was one about chemicals that are used in the piano trade - their toxicity and safe handling. Also understanding how different types of lubricants work. This could be a sort of "chemistry 101" for piano technicians. I don't know who would teach it. Any ideas? Del, would this be up your alley?
Posted by: Del

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/05/10 02:14 PM

Originally Posted By: rysowers
There was another gentleman who gave a terrific wood technology class years ago at a regional conference. I think his name may have been Lee Josa, but I can't seem to find anything online about him, so I may not have his name quite right. I believe he was a Canadian resident. He also taught a beginning wood carving class that was well received.

It is Les Joso, I believe. Last I heard he still lived in Vancouver, BC. Check with Rod--someone in the Vancouver chapter should be able to track him down. Best class on wood I ever saw. Informative and highly entertaining!


Quote:
Del - There may be someone from Seattle driving to Kansas City. Roger Gable may be one of them - perhaps he could haul your fixtures. I'll check into this.

Be better than shipping it. What are the chances of making it an all-day affair ala Sacramento? Check with Dale Fox and Gene Nelson.


Quote:
Another class idea that someone mentioned to me recently was one about chemicals that are used in the piano trade - their toxicity and safe handling. Also understanding how different types of lubricants work. This could be a sort of "chemistry 101" for piano technicians. I don't know who would teach it. Any ideas? Del, would this be up your alley?

Nope. I’m not a chemist.

ddf
Posted by: 88Key_PianoPlayer

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/05/10 03:17 PM

Is Franz Mohr still around? I've never met him, and if he's still alive, would love the opportunity, but don't really feel like traveling to NYC at this time (and by the time I can afford a trip like that he'd be almost 200 if he was still alive).
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/05/10 04:52 PM

Originally Posted By: 88Key_PianoPlayer
Is Franz Mohr still around? I've never met him, and if he's still alive, would love the opportunity, but don't really feel like traveling to NYC at this time (and by the time I can afford a trip like that he'd be almost 200 if he was still alive).


Excellent idea, 88key! I'll check into this. BTW, it was nice to meet you in Las Vegas! You are wise to take advantage of the educational opportunities the guild offers.
Posted by: Jbyron

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/05/10 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: rysowers
Another class idea that someone mentioned to me recently was one about chemicals that are used in the piano trade - their toxicity and safe handling. Also understanding how different types of lubricants work. This could be a sort of "chemistry 101" for piano technicians. I don't know who would teach it. Any ideas? Del, would this be up your alley?


I think that's a fantastic idea for a class.
Posted by: Zeno Wood

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/05/10 06:37 PM

Agreed! What with all the lead, teflon, mclube, methanol (bad!), lacquer, acetone, etc. that we're exposed to all the time, this a great idea for a class. In fact, someone could take the class notes and turn it into a nifty brochure/bulletin for distribution among technicians.

Shop safety is up there too. Also hearing protection, but that one is already being covered.
Posted by: RonTuner

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/05/10 09:39 PM

After the long EBVT thread, I'd be happy to give "An introduction to Temperaments" - an understanding of Jason Kanter's www.rollingball graphs. When I usually give a similar class, I tune three or more pianos so that participants have a chance to "feel" the tuning from the bench - I think it is a different experience from hearing from the audience.

The class usually branches out to include ETD tuning, the Bach/Lehman temperament story, and stretch preferences as well as temperament choices.

These types of classes always depend on the willingness of the class to participate by bringing even the easiest repetoire to play...

Ron Koval
chicagoland
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/05/10 10:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Zeno Wood
Agreed! What with all the lead, teflon, mclube, methanol (bad!), lacquer, acetone, etc. that we're exposed to all the time, this a great idea for a class. In fact, someone could take the class notes and turn it into a nifty brochure/bulletin for distribution among technicians.

Shop safety is up there too. Also hearing protection, but that one is already being covered.


Hi there Zeno! It's hard to believe it hasn't even been a week since we had dinner in the "Miracle Mile"!
. Jean and I finally had dinner at Ellis Island the next night. It turns out we were in the wrong part of the building when we went there! And the rumors were true: $1.50 micro brews while you wait!

The trick with this class will be to find someone qualified to teach it! But I agree it is a very important topic. It seems I recall that Doug Wood in Seattle had a chemistry background and had maybe taught a similar class years ago. He'll be recovering from his bicycle accident for a while, but maybe this would be a good time for him to work on a class!

If anyone out there knows a good instructor for this topic let me know! I'll check the pianotech list as well.
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/05/10 10:10 PM

Originally Posted By: RonTuner
After the long EBVT thread, I'd be happy to give "An introduction to Temperaments" - an understanding of Jason Kanter's www.rollingball graphs. When I usually give a similar class, I tune three or more pianos so that participants have a chance to "feel" the tuning from the bench - I think it is a different experience from hearing from the audience.

The class usually branches out to include ETD tuning, the Bach/Lehman temperament story, and stretch preferences as well as temperament choices.

These types of classes always depend on the willingness of the class to participate by bringing even the easiest repetoire to play...

Ron Koval
chicagoland


Ron! I like this idea! It's especially fun to have public figures at the convention. You've attained a certain level of fame through your youtube videos! This would be an opportunity for people to learn from you in person. Can you send me a more detailed class description so I can bring it to the Institute Director?
Posted by: Jim Moy

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/05/10 11:32 PM

Along the Hoadley theme: woodworking for piano technicians. For those of us who are primarily tuner-techs, are generally handy, but haven't bought their first major power tool yet. Cut, plane, and assemble a sound board. Make repairs to existing piano parts in the case, action. Make your own bridge. I know, I know, those are all all-day/week classes, but not the introduction to the common things done on the drill press, table, band, and miter saw, etc. Building a woodworking shop specifically tailored to piano work, showing what you need, what you would like, and where you go all-out. Maybe it's been done and I just haven't been around long enough.
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/06/10 10:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Jim Moy
Along the Hoadley theme: woodworking for piano technicians. For those of us who are primarily tuner-techs, are generally handy, but haven't bought their first major power tool yet. Cut, plane, and assemble a sound board. Make repairs to existing piano parts in the case, action. Make your own bridge. I know, I know, those are all all-day/week classes, but not the introduction to the common things done on the drill press, table, band, and miter saw, etc. Building a woodworking shop specifically tailored to piano work, showing what you need, what you would like, and where you go all-out. Maybe it's been done and I just haven't been around long enough.

I feel the same way! I wish I had taken WAY more woodworking classes in high school and college.

Now we just need to find the right person to teach "Basic Woodworking for Piano Technicians". I'll check with the pianotech list too. A couple of people are coming to mind...
Posted by: RoyP

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/06/10 11:15 AM

There is a violin maker in Cincinnati who use to be an industrial chemist. I haven't talked to him in a few years, but he might fit the bill. I could try to look him up if there is interest. He gave me stern warnings about the dangers of lacquer thinner, acetone, etc. He use to work with them all the time, and I think suffers some long term nervous system damage. He said he wore full protection, but it still seeps into the bloodstream. It's one reason I haven't had much interest in getting back into the refinishing part of trade.
Posted by: RPD

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/06/10 10:15 PM

How about a class entitled "The Well Tooled Shop: All the Tools Necessary to Expand into Regulation, Rebuilding and Restoration"

I know it varies from tech to tech, but we've got a fairly large and full time shop here, and its taken us years to tool up the way we are now...and we're still refining. It would be a great class for beginners, but also for experienced tech's looking to take in larger jobs. The one-bench shop could be covered too, for smaller operations.

Perhaps its been done (certainly in derivative form through accumulated classes etc, but my idea would target JUST setting up a shop)...we're planning to attend in Kansas, and that's my 2 cents.

The rest of the ideas look great, BTW!

RPD
Posted by: Gene Nelson

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/06/10 11:43 PM

Ryan,
Let us know if Hoadley responds.
A rebuilder here in Sacramento was geared up to present a wood technology class for the National in Southern Cal a while ago.
You might consider Dale Fox if Hoadley or the other person will not.
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/07/10 10:32 AM

Originally Posted By: RPD
How about a class entitled "The Well Tooled Shop: All the Tools Necessary to Expand into Regulation, Rebuilding and Restoration"

I know it varies from tech to tech, but we've got a fairly large and full time shop here, and its taken us years to tool up the way we are now...and we're still refining. It would be a great class for beginners, but also for experienced tech's looking to take in larger jobs. The one-bench shop could be covered too, for smaller operations.

Perhaps its been done (certainly in derivative form through accumulated classes etc, but my idea would target JUST setting up a shop)...we're planning to attend in Kansas, and that's my 2 cents.

The rest of the ideas look great, BTW!

RPD

Thanks RPD! So it sounds like you or one of your associates is interested in teaching the class? If you could PM me a description of the class in the following format I will take it to the Institute Team:

Title
Instructor
Brief description

If the instructor is new, it would be good to have some recommendations so that we can feel confident that the person can pull it off.
Posted by: RPD

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/09/10 04:33 PM

Ryan,

Thanks for the thought, and we do run a great shop here, but I don't think I'd presume to teach anything to a group of techs at my first PTG convention! In fact, I'll be the guy in the back with tape over his mouth, an arm full of literature, and a notebook!

I'd probably nominate either Chuck Behm or Alex Kaptyn (sp?)...but not myself!

Thanks for entertaining the idea though...and I'll keep in touch with the topic to see if anything developes...

RPD
Posted by: Les Koltvedt

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/09/10 04:56 PM

Originally Posted By: rysowers

Ryan Sowers, RPT
Assistant Director
2011 PTG Technical Institute
Kansas City, MI


I keep looking for Kansas City, Michigan crazy ...Ryan, you need to fix your signature.
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/09/10 08:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Monster M&H
Originally Posted By: rysowers

Ryan Sowers, RPT
Assistant Director
2011 PTG Technical Institute
Kansas City, MI


I keep looking for Kansas City, Michigan crazy ...Ryan, you need to fix your signature.


OOPS! You're right! I got MI confused with MO. Oh well, I've done worse...!
Posted by: Les Koltvedt

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/13/10 06:19 PM

Hey, they are right next to each ither... smile
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/13/10 11:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Monster M&H
Hey, they are right next to each ither... smile


Yeah! They're practically the same thing!
Posted by: Noah Frere

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/23/10 01:38 PM

Hello all. I submitted this class idea to the committee. Is there any interest in it?

The Eco-Friendly Piano Technician

This 90 minute class will explore ways to bring pianos into harmony with the caretaking of our earth. It will discuss not only the philosophy of why this is important, but also specific techniques for practicing these long-neglected philosophies. For example, Bolduc is experimenting with a new “Green Soundboard,” made from the left over scraps of spruce not normally used in soundboard construction. Other topics include: restoring vs. trashing; recycling; green energy in the office and travel; the rule of six; forest history and prognosis; materials such as escaine/leather, glues, wood, felt, metals and agraffes.

Noah Frere
www.knowapiano.com
Knoxville, TN
Posted by: Noah Frere

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/23/10 01:39 PM

I second the wood technology class.

Noah Frere
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/23/10 09:54 PM

Thanks Noah! I think it is a very intriguing idea for a class. I'm sure many other technicians are thinking about these same issues.

It sounds like you are actually offering to teach the class. That would be wonderful! If you've submitted it to the team, you've already completed the first step! Posting it here, will maybe indicate how much others may be interested in it.

Keep in mind that even if your class doesn't get chosen this year, it may get chosen the following year. Every year the schedule is a balancing act, but since "NEW!" is the theme this year, I think your class is very appropriate.

Nice website by the way!
Posted by: Noah Frere

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/25/10 10:24 PM

thankx! yours is nice too.
Posted by: Olek

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/26/10 04:29 AM

I am always impressed by the jigs and educational material, books, seminars, etc, the PTG is providing.

Having a few friends that leave now in the USA, they also told me that it is a good opportunity to attend those seminars.
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/28/10 03:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
I am always impressed by the jigs and educational material, books, seminars, etc, the PTG is providing.

Having a few friends that leave now in the USA, they also told me that it is a good opportunity to attend those seminars.



How true, Isaac! PTG has continued to evolve at a steady rate. It is certainly not the same organization that it was when I joined 18 years ago. The level of professionalism and quality of information has reached new heights, much to the benefit of all: PTG and Non-PTG members alike, and the piano playing public.

Would you consider teaching at a PTG Institute Isaac? It is always refreshing for us here in the USA to get the European perspective on things! Andre Oorebeek has been a big hit the past couple of years. We always enjoy our "exotic" guests!

If you have interest and/or ideas please don't hesitate to let me know!
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 09/26/10 09:41 AM



Here I am at the Kansas City International Airport waiting for my flight back to Seattle. We just wrapped up our pre-conference planning session. Director Marc Poulin's "All new classes!" concept has paid off - we have an amazing and refreshing line up of classes for the 2011 PTG Institute. There will be a few classes that will return by overwhelming popular demand, but for the most part expect to see classes and instructors that you have never seen before.

I will be following up with more details soon!

The time to start planning on attending is now! Fall is the busy time for piano technicians, and is often a time when we can put a little extra into the bank. Make a commitment to your continuing education - your clients and bank account will thank you. It is really one of the best investments you can make. As the saying goes: "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance".

More to come soon...!
Posted by: pianocat88

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 01/28/11 11:13 AM

Ryan-
I taught a chemical safety class to local chapters about 15 years ago. Much of the info is outdated, since you don't have to mail away for MSDS instructions any more, you can find them online. I gave my notes to Randy Potter and he updated the class and made a video during the 2004 Cal State Conference in Los Angeles.
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 01/30/11 02:31 PM

Thanks Lisa! I'll suggest to Roger Wheelock that he contact Randy for that info.
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 01/30/11 02:39 PM



INSTRUCTOR SPOTLIGHT: DAVID ANDERSEN

INSPIRATION is a piano technician’s most important asset. It motivates us to strive for excellence. For those of you familiar with David Andersen’s classes you understand what I mean when I say that he is the embodiment of INSPIRATION! His latest offering to the institute will charge you up like never before. David’s lectures are not to be missed; He is one of our field’s top instructors. The way he communicates and connects with a room of piano technicians is electrifying!

David’s new class is entitled “The Ultimate Tool: Understanding and using the brilliance of your own body in high-end piano work." Each of us has in our possession the most technologically advanced, ultra-sensitive, compact, highly reliable piano tool that the world has ever known: Our own bodies. With all the tools, jigs, and gauges that are available we may not realize that our own bodies can achieve superior results.

From the class description: “98% of what neuroscientists know about our brains has been discovered in the past 10 years, and we can take immediate advantage of that in our craft and practice. There are powerful new techniques for growing new neural pathways and increasing our ability to focus, hear the piano, and feel the piano”

David’s friend, Tim Gallwey, author of The Inner Game of Tennis, the largest-selling sports book in history, will collaborate through a short video. His techniques have had a powerful effect over the past 30 years, radically improving the performance and state of being of athletes, artists, musicians, and CEOs all over the world. Now we can improve ours. Very plain and simple explanations and practical demonstrations will be given.

Part two will be a hands-on practicum. Pianos will be made available and participants will explore some of David’s “Ultimate Tool” techniques first hand. This could very well be a life-changing experience that will forever alter and deepen your approach to piano work, and perhaps provide the key to doing better work on better pianos.

David will demonstrate protocols he has developed based on the ideas from the first period. The following areas will be covered: Tuning, voicing, precise, “concert” action regulation, and the extremely important area of diagnostics: Using your body to “be the expert” and consistently sell more work than “just tuning”.

Best of all, every participant will go home with a multi-trillion dollar tool! No assembly required. Just turn it on!


Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/24/11 08:28 AM

I received my PTG journal with all of the classes listed in it today Ryan. Looks like you have some dynamic classes!! That's the hardest part, choosing what classes to attend.

I reserved my room at the hotel last night so it's official, "we're" going...my son and I! Just have to pay Sandy for the both of us yet which will be fairly soon too! smile
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/24/11 10:20 AM

I'm really eager to be there as well. I was pleased to see that Bernhard Stopper will demonstrate his method of aural tuning in a double session. I will definitely attend that to find out just what it is for sure that he does and hear the results afterward. I promised Bernhard a steak dinner many months ago and I'd like to renew that offer at this time.

Also of prime interest to me is the Home Office museum tour.
Posted by: Bernhard Stopper

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/24/11 05:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
I'm really eager to be there as well. I was pleased to see that Bernhard Stopper will demonstrate his method of aural tuning in a double session. I will definitely attend that to find out just what it is for sure that he does and hear the results afterward. I promised Bernhard a steak dinner many months ago and I'd like to renew that offer at this time.

Also of prime interest to me is the Home Office museum tour.


Your are welcome Bill, also your offer for the steak dinner!
Maybe a good chance to eat your crow there when i eat my steak, if you were wrong with GP´s comparison game ;-)

I prepared a small video trailer for my class:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Holg8i4u9JU
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/24/11 09:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper


Your are welcome Bill, also your offer for the steak dinner!
Maybe a good chance to eat your crow there when i eat my steak, if you were wrong with GP´s comparison game ;-)

I prepared a small video trailer for my class:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Holg8i4u9JU



Oh, I was wrong, alright. From what I know, nobody has yet to get them all right but I am not losing any sleep over it. For the moment, I'll go with what BDB said: You can't tell anything from a recording!

Your You Tune video also sounded quite good: a very clean, even and regular sound from the piano. Impeccable unisons!

Kent Swafford informed me that the very fine and popular steak house that was in walking distance from the hotel had burned down. However, Kansas City is famous for its steaks. It might be just as well for me to make a reservation in one of the fine hotel restaurants for perhaps an hour after your class is over or whichever time would suit you. We'll talk about that later.
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/24/11 09:25 PM

Originally Posted By: rysowers


Would you consider teaching at a PTG Institute Isaac? It is always refreshing for us here in the USA to get the European perspective on things! Andre Oorebeek has been a big hit the past couple of years. We always enjoy our "exotic" guests!

If you have interest and/or ideas please don't hesitate to let me know!


Ryan,

If you can get Kamin to present a class next year, I would be happy to assist him with any language difficulties the way that Kent Swafford has helped Bernhard Stopper.
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/24/11 09:53 PM

I'll put it on my list Bill! Sounds like a great idea.

Bernhard,
I'm placing your video in the reply window so it will be more visible. The Bach sounds so wonderful - thanks for sharing that. I'm now a Grigory Sokolov fan!
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/25/11 03:50 AM

What a wonderful sound! Clean, open, clear, both melodic and harmonic, transparent... And the unisons give me goose-flesh. Compliments to the pianist and the tuner!

I'd give my tuning lever to attend your class, Bernhard, but a return ticket to the USA is just not on the cards at this stage. (Priorities, priorities.) Perhaps some day...

Wishing all participants a fruitful convention!
Posted by: Grandpianoman

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/25/11 04:50 AM

Delightful video Bernard...tuning and pianist! Ahh, maybe someday I can get unisons like that. When I was relying totally on your software for the unisons, they were very clean sounding...the trouble was my stability...after a concert pounding, they were off. Your software is very sensitive to minute changes in the pitch, which is obviously great for getting clean unisons. I have a tech question about your software, will PM you.

All the best for the convention!
Posted by: pppat

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/25/11 07:49 PM

Hope I can be of a different opinion without sounding condescending, because that is certainly not my intent.

Wonderful unisons - the very few ones long enough to be given feedback upon . This is not exactly sustained material, so they can't be given too much importance.

wonderful playing (Sokolov is ridiculously good, and a great link between the past and now)

Good overall balance, and a personal way of tuning. I like that very much. Go for it.

The mid-range is way too wide for me. The loose (=wide harmony in the mid-range does not give me a full-bodied feeling. There is a lot of potential power that don't really come out of the instrument.

Albeit, this is Bach, but then to me the mid-range looseness is even more prevailing.

This is as earnest as I can come across, and others may (and already have) been of vastly different opinions about the things I criticize. That's alright, and almost welcome if you ask me. Consensus is, generally, boring.

Stretch-vise, I still do not feel it together, more like botox treatment of old tissue. The genetic face expressions are there, but they are twisted into immovability.

Still, I really look forward to attending your class in KC!
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/25/11 08:40 PM

Bernhard,

I encourage you to start a new thread about the OnlyPure method. I also encourage you to post as many examples of your tuning as possible. We can also discuss the similarities and differences there are to your approach, Alfredo's and mine. This thread is not really the right place for it but it does let everyone know you will be teaching in Kansas City and that is good.
Posted by: Bernhard Stopper

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/26/11 04:46 AM

Originally Posted By: pppat

Still, I really look forward to attending your class in KC!


Please don´t.
Class capacity is limited. I don´t travel that far to offer a pro and con party about different tuning styles. I want class places to be available for those who are able to recognize from the video what i have to offer and who want to learn it. Embarrassing enough that you miss that any criticism of class material in a thread, where the classes are to be presented, is way off-topic, offensive and annoying.
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/26/11 10:04 AM

Bernhard,

I truly don't believe Patrick intended to imply that he would challenge or seek to debate your tuning style and methods during your presentation at the convention. Nor would I. I want to see and hear what you have to say at that time. I would have a problem as well with someone doing the same during my class!

We are fortunate to have PTG as an organization that values diversity of methods and opinions. The organization itself does not endorse any one over the other. It allows its members and guest participants to discuss and express their opinions through forums like the Journal and Pianotech.

PTG chooses the classes and instructors based upon the interest expressed by its members. Clearly, there is an interest in what you have to offer. You may have read and if not, should read and understand that any instructor is not allowed to denounce or disparage in any way the methods of other members. So, the goal of your class is to present what you have to offer as it is my goal to present what I have to offer.

Having said that, a forum such as this is the place to discuss what differences there may be in your approach as compared to others. It is not proper in doing so to say that your methods are "right" and others are "wrong" but rather what you consider to be the advantages of what you do compared to perhaps the shortcomings or disadvantages of any other method. That can be done in a respectful way, even if you strongly disagree with the views of others.

I can see from what Patrick has said that he does see certain qualities of what you do as being useful to him. He may very well want to learn to tune just as you do to be a part of his capabilities when he feels that it is appropriate. He has seen what I do as beneficial but does not always choose to use my methods. I certainly accept that. It has never occurred to me to say to him, "You should always tune the way I do.", for example. Indeed, I taught him to tune both the EBVT and a method for tuning ET. I teach many more people how to tune ET than I do the EBVT.

It is a fact that what I know how to do is the result of combining the knowledge and experience of many individuals. I see Patrick as the kind of technician and performer as well who is capable of understanding and implementing many diverse ideas. The result may be in the future, yet another kind of methodology that is unknown to any of us today.

Please don't push people away, invite them to learn what you have to offer!

Quote:
Class capacity is limited.


There could be no better indication of the interest in your methodology than a standing room only audience!
Posted by: Bernhard Stopper

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/26/11 10:17 AM

Sorry Bill,
i am not at all willing to share my knowledge with someone who throws me statements about my work like this in my face:

" ...more like botox treatment of old tissue. The genetic face expressions are there, but they are twisted into immovability."

Posted by: RPD

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/26/11 08:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
Sorry Bill,
i am not at all willing to share my knowledge with someone who throws me statements about my work like this in my face:

" ...more like botox treatment of old tissue. The genetic face expressions are there, but they are twisted into immovability."




Time to take a few deep relaxing breaths perhaps?

RPD
Posted by: pppat

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/26/11 09:20 PM

Bernhard,

It is not like I go in and edit the PTG convention flyers. You're on a public forum that is not affiliated with the PTG, and the discussion should be open. If you don't like it in this thread, it can be run, like Bill suggests, in a dedicated thread. I think it would be of much interest to a lot of forum members.

What I wrote about my perception of your onlypure stretch is simply just the way I feel about it. It is not meant to be mean or condescending, it is meant to be honest input. You have a lot of others posters here who endorse that same stretch, so I don't see why this would be a general perception. Honest feedback of any kind will strengthen something good in the long run, just as with all kind of sincere critic (be that positive or negative).

My "botox-analogy" is a descriptive way of saying that I don't feel that cancelled-out beat rates and a rather wide mid-range are necessarily good things. As you feature the cancelled-out effect as one of the main asset of onlypure, I think nothing is lost from discussing these things - on the contrary, you should now have an opening to elaborate and deepen our understanding of what you do.

You write "I want class places to be available for those who are able to recognize from the video what i have to offer and who want to learn it." That is exactly the reason I will attend your class. I respect lecturers in the classroom, I respect their passion about their subject, and I always learn something from them.
As of a possible fear of me trying to trigger a debate with a lecturer in a PTG class (if that's what you fear) you could hardly find a person who is less intended to do so.

As for you trying to keep me out of your class and not being willing to share your knowledge with me, that could very well be your honest feelings about this (although I have a hard time figuring out why). But, just as Bill say, the true strength of the PTG Convention is the same strength that any vibrant society has - people of different opinions, where nobody necessarily carries the whole truth, but an open dialogue and awareness towards each other makes the sum become even greater than the parts.

I think it's a great mistake to try to impose some kind of censorship on the audience of a PTG lesson, neither can I possibly imagine that the PTG would censor participants on the preference of the lecturer alone. In fact, I rest assure that this will never happen in a country like the USA where diversity and personal opinion is highly encouraged.

Ryan Sowers might be able to share a more official PTG approach in this (or in a dedicated) thread.
Posted by: Bernhard Stopper

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/28/11 08:56 AM

Your botox analogy is to me a clear and calculated condescending offense. It stands for a qualification of yourself, thus I don´t ask moderators to remove it.

In a former post you appreciated an equal temperament of the form of pure fifths (Cordier), where the stretch goes about twice beyond standard ET, than the stretch used in my tuning example. Your signature line and PTG membership qualifies you well to be aware of that fact. This proves me well, that your statement is simply meant to be as a condescending offense, hidden behind a shady statement that is not to be meant as such.

Don´t come with paragraphs about censorship of PTG audience from my side:
I first kindly asked you, not to participate and just explained Bill truly why.

Since you introduced paragraphs, rather ask yourself, if such condescending statements from your side may violate PTG ethic code Nr. 1: "I will act honorably and in a professional manner"
http://www.ptg.org/userfiles/file/docs/2010/2010-06%20Bylaws.pdf
Posted by: pppat

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/28/11 09:20 AM

Ok, I give up. Since I can't write anything without you reading the worst into it, I will neither try to discuss with you nor attend your KC class.
Posted by: Bernhard Stopper

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/28/11 09:24 AM

The video trailer for my class (Tuning the Stopper OnlyPure Temperament Aurally) had a little flaw in one of the text windows, here is the new version:



Bernhard Stopper
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/28/11 09:56 AM

Bernhard,

I ask you to drop this accusation, just as we all did when we thought what was intended as a serious and thoughtful contribution from you was instead intended as mocking sarcasm. Even though there were several of us that thought the same thing, there were others who said that those who thought so were overly defensive. One participant remarked at how he perceived that everyone who uses non-equal temperaments is defensive about the problems caused by their use. This instigated yet another question from me as to what problems did he perceive?

So, you see, now the coin has turned and I see that an innocent analogy was taken to imply a sarcastic remark upon the work you have done for so long and worked so hard at. I well know the feeling. I have encountered it for over 20 years now.

I believe that Patrick intended nothing of the kind. If we take "standard procedure" or perhaps the model ET which is used in the tuning exams (in which I will participate very soon again; the practice of what I consider to be a theoretical model which I would never actually use in practice) and depart from it in any way whatsoever, there will be effects as a consequence. Indeed, the theoretical model has its own effect and that is why I choose not to use it.

We all have ways of describing such effects and an opinion formed about them. I have read opinions from you about the effects of what I do, for example that I did not find to be flattering. However, that never diminished my opinion of what you do as a technician and the friendship we formed when I met you in Anaheim, California.

I attended your class and was impressed by what you do. I remember very little of your explanations but clearly remember the results. Somehow, when I was without the use of an ETD for a week or so last year, it occurred to me to balance an octave by playing simultaneously the octave, fourth and fifth below it and the note to be tuned and to find the "sweet spot" for the note to be tuned where the beat among all of these apparently is suppressed.

You immediately accused me of stealing your idea and calling it my own. I answered that I did not remember that you used such an idea or demonstrated it which I still do not. However, I can see how a fragmented idea seen somewhere at some time, can resurface in one's memory and can re-construct itself. Therefore, since that time, when I have shown this technique to others, I have said that this was apparently the idea that Bernhard Stopper uses.

You see, I say "apparently" because I am still not completely sure about it but I do want to attend your class and confirm that this idea is actually what you do, how far you take it, etc. I have learned techniques from many sources. When I use a technique learned directly from an individual, I am more than happy to name the person from whom I first learned it.

I had a similar experience with Steve Fairchild, for example. Long ago (more than 25 years, I think), Mr. Fairchild demonstrated with two SAT devices how he could balance a double octave with an octave-fifth. I and another fine technician from Canada observed what he was doing and we looked at each other in a puzzled way. We saw that each pitch he tuned was not stopping the ETD pattern on either of his devices. Neither of us understood at that time what he was doing.

Somehow, however, in my own experimentation when tuning aurally a year or two later, I found that I could balance an octave with an octave-fifth while using the sostenuto pedal. I continued to use this technique for several years. When I described it on Pianotech, I received much skepticism and what I perceived as sarcasm.

There were questions such as, how such octaves would score on a tuning exam. When I execute a master tuning for one of these exams in July, I will use that technique as I have done for many years. I have proved that it creates optimally tuned octaves to many other examiners, quite to their delight and amazement about how accurately the aural approach can be achieved with the very same results either aurally or electronically.

Some years after using the aural technique, I discovered one day that I could do the very same using an ETD. Only then, after discovering that, did it dawn upon me that this was, in fact what Mr. Fairchild had been demonstrating several years before. Therefore, I often attribute that discovery to him when writing about it.

Even Mr. Fairchild had a similar experience. He apparently discovered through his own experimentation, the very same well temperament proposed by Antonio Vallotti in the 18th Century. That was pointed out by Owen Jorgensen. (Thanks again to Professor Jorgensen for the fruits of all of his research). Professor Jorgensen, however did not accuse Mr, Fairchild of plagiarism. He saw that the idea itself had a simple logic to it that Mr, Fairchild had discovered quite of his own initiative.

So yes, perhaps Patrick could have chosen better words to describe what he feels are the effects of your techniques but knowing him personally, I know that he would be the very last person to attack another person's work with intended sarcasm. I did not take it as such as I am sure that many others did not.

So, I once again ask you to let go of what you perceived as sarcasm, for it was not intended that way. Patrick wants to attend your class to see what it is that you do. None of us on PWF who wish to attend your class have any intention of attempting to debate or denounce in any way what you do either in your class or outside of it.

We are all colleagues and we are all interested in the expansion of our knowledge and skills rather than holding on to narrow or close minded points of view.

See you in Kansas City!
Posted by: Bernhard Stopper

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/28/11 11:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

I attended your class and was impressed by what you do. I remember very little of your explanations but clearly remember the results. Somehow, when I was without the use of an ETD for a week or so last year, it occurred to me to balance an octave by playing simultaneously the octave, fourth and fifth below it and the note to be tuned and to find the "sweet spot" for the note to be tuned where the beat among all of these apparently is suppressed.

You immediately accused me of stealing your idea and calling it my own. I answered that I did not remember that you used such an idea or demonstrated it which I still do not.


As far as i remember, we cleared this already. You have been directly involved in a discussion here on PW about a year before your "occurence", guessing what the aural OnlyPure method could be, where exactly this technique was mentioned. You may have it simply forgotten, anyways i don´t understand why you introduce this again here, it´s rather off-topic in this context.

Anyway, see you in KC.
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/28/11 02:50 PM

Bernhard,

Yes, if I had ever heard of that technique before, I had forgotten where I had heard it or that I had ever heard of it. I brought it up as an example of jumping to conclusions which is something that happens to all of us.

That particular technique is also an example of something which exists to be discovered and no doubt, many people have discovered it on their own or have read about it in other places. When someone saw me mention it here, she wrote this to me in a private message:

Quote:
I knew I read it somewhere, and the most logical place would have been the tuning exam source book. And indeed, there it is... it is part of the article series "Learning to pass the PTG tuning examination", written by Michael Travis, RPT. "Part 5: Midrange" was published in the Piano Technicians Journal in March 1990. The third paragraph from the end (page 34 in the source book) reads like this:

Originally Posted By: Michael Travis - PTJ, March 1990

The "Harvey Chord." Well, here's another tool you might find interesting, the "Harvey Chord," promoted by Jim Harvey, frequent seminar and national institute instructor. It works! Well, it's pretty good, anyway. Mainly, it's fast - suitable for the first pass from the midrange up through octave 5 (after which you'd probably want to switch to single octaves only on the first pass). With one hand on the tuning hammer, which is on the appropriate pin, play the "Harvey Chord" with the other hand, and adjust the pin to minimize the beats. The "Harvey Chord" is as follows: octave, P5, P4, and note being tuned. No, you don't play the octave, then the P5 and then the P4. That's not the idea. You play all these notes together and tune to minimize the beats. Very efficient! One example: tuning C5, play simultaneously, C4, F4, G4, C5 and adjust C5 for the cleanest (least "dirty") sound. Next note!


The only thing I would disagree with in the above quote is that it is useful for rough tuning. On the contrary, I find it useful for very precise fine tuning. I also find extensions of this technique suitable for the high treble and low bass.

So, let's agree that Patrick's choice of analogy was unfortunate and that you were initially insulted by it (as I can often be by a very similar remark) but that he intended no personal attack.
Posted by: Bernhard Stopper

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 03/30/11 03:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

So, let's agree that Patrick's choice of analogy was unfortunate and that you were initially insulted by it (as I can often be by a very similar remark) but that he intended no personal attack.


Thanks for moderating, Bill.
An intended offense could easily be forgiven from my side (including an invitation for my class), if he confirms that this was the case along with an apology. As i said, he appreciated formerly a temperament with a stretch about twice as strong as in my temperament, what in consequence would imply that his perception is not very reliable, an option i don´t believe he is really interested in.
Posted by: pppat

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/01/11 04:41 PM

Bernhard,

I apologize if I offended you by badly chosen words, but I cannot ever confirm that it was my intention... simply because it wasn't. At all.

Don't worry about your class, I won't be attending.

Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

As i said, he appreciated formerly a temperament with a stretch about twice as strong as in my temperament, what in consequence would imply that his perception is not very reliable, an option i don´t believe he is really interested in.


You can, of course, imply or believe anything you want. I don't know which post of mine you're talking about, maybe you can enlighten me? I don't know if my perception is reliable or not, but it is certainly honest as far as I myself can tell.

If my ears are screwed up, or if my perception or taste has changed (which is quite possible), then I would be very interested in having that pointed out.

See? Already a fluctuating mind... I wrote about a week ago that I wouldn't discuss this with you anymore, yet I'm writing this smile
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/02/11 12:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
As i said, he appreciated formerly a temperament with a stretch about twice as strong as in my temperament, what in consequence would imply that his perception is not very reliable, an option i don´t believe he is really interested in.

I think you refer to Cordier tuning, with pure 5ths instead of pure 12ths. If one would compare pure 12ths tuning to a Botox treatment, one might compare pure 5ths tuning to a surgical facelift.

However it can not be denied that a botox treatment can make a face look nicer, so Pat's comment could be construed as a compliment. A way to improve the old ET face smile

Kees
Posted by: Gadzar

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/02/11 05:08 AM

Unfortunately, I can't go to this convention. I would love to attend Stopper's class and learn the Onlypure tuning. And I can not buy the software neither.

When I saw that Her Stopper had posted a video I thought it was about how to tune the Onlypure system...

Anyway, what I hear is the most pure unisons I've heard so far in a video. And the music sounds really good.

I have troubles to evaluate a tuning directly from a piece of music been played on a piano. I prefer to analyse different intervals to hear their quality and progression of beat rates.

But, from the music in the video, I can hear some thirds at about 2:00 which sound good.

I have no objection to what I hear in this video and I am rather pleased by the sound of the piano. So IMHO it is a top quality tuning.

I can not hear the wideness in the mid range refered by Patrick. For me a wide mid range means to have too busy 8ves, M10ths and M17ths, which I don't hear in the video.


Posted by: pppat

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/05/11 05:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

I have troubles to evaluate a tuning directly from a piece of music been played on a piano. I prefer to analyse different intervals to hear their quality and progression of beat rates.

Yes, Rafael, I think we all have that problem. Especially analyzing tunings abstractly, void of the music played. Then again, why would you?
That said, I'm well aware that a tuning can be presented in a favorable way by playing music that brings forth its forte.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

I have no objection to what I hear in this video and I am rather pleased by the sound of the piano. So IMHO it is a top quality tuning.

I can not hear the wideness in the mid range refered by Patrick. For me a wide mid range means to have too busy 8ves, M10ths and M17ths, which I don't hear in the video.

That's good for Bernhard's tuning. One more vote in favor of it, and I'm all for democracy. I see different opinions as a healthy thing, and dialogue per se as the only way to get further.

What I don't understand is the need for inquisition. We should be way past that in any kind of modern community - virtual or IRL.

Anyways, I'm still waiting for Bernhard to pinpoint down where I spoke favorably of a cordier stretch in the midrange. I'd really like to know... and *EDITOR'S REMARKS* - this not in a sarcastic, offensive, evil, strange w... hold on. It might be a strange way. But I do not believe in insinuations, I like plain text.

@Bernhard: Where did I write what?
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/05/11 05:43 PM

Originally Posted By: pppat


Anyways, I'm still waiting for Bernhard to pinpoint down where I spoke favorably of a cordier stretch in the midrange. I'd really like to know... and *EDITOR'S REMARKS* - this not in a sarcastic, offensive, evil, strange w... hold on. It might be a strange way. But I do not believe in insinuations, I like plain text.

@Bernhard: Where did I write what?

Here.

Kees
Posted by: pppat

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/05/11 07:09 PM

smile thanks, Kees. I'll quote myself:

Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Kamin
I'd say that beats are not particularely nonharmonic, (musically speaking, not theoretically) and that we may play with them, not fight them !

exemple :

http://www.ambassade-du-piano.eu/videos,concert-akihiro-sakiya-part-3-26759.html



ABove : based on a "pure 5th" sequence , with double octaves beating as heck !

is it noticed ?


No dissonance that bothered me either. At least this tuning seems to work very great in a lively acoustic place, for that kind of sparkling piano writing!

What really interested me though, is that I found this kind of tuning more coherent than a pure 12th tuning! Very interesting. Is it the obvious sparkling quality of the triads (with their pure 5ths) that causes this?

Any comments are welcome. I have to try this wild stretch myself, too smile It is a cordier-based tuning, right?


This was in July last year. I think I made it pretty clear that I found that tuning more together than pure 12ths. I was also puzzled as to why, as you can see in my reply.

Maybe pure 12ths, to me, are just hopelessly in the middle? I don't really know. I only hear what I hear, and for any of my listen-throughs there are many others that hear differently.

If there is anything to be read from experiences like these, I'd vote for something nourishing, not for something you'd like to take care of using the lawn mover.
Posted by: Bernhard Stopper

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/06/11 02:27 AM

Originally Posted By: pppat

Maybe pure 12ths, to me, are just hopelessly in the middle? I don't really know.


I am still guesssing what may cause your concerns about this aspect in my tuning. (Remember that your concerns included much more aspects at the beginning. For example your questioning of Wolfgang Dauner´s hearing (he was appreciating my tuning) because of his age, as you found the treble of my tunings to be stretched uncomfortably high at that time. Recently you were appreciating pure duodecimes yourself for the treble stretch and speak about your melodic ear (aged pretty fast?)). Remember your complaints about missing coherence in my tunings? Recently you also expressed your preference for duodecimes in the bass (with the higher involved bass partials, like 6/2 or 9/3) but for the midrange you are still fighting against them? How does this go together with the principle of coherence? I tend to believe that it is not your hearing that causes your offense, but rather your knowledge that it is something different, so it must be unnatural. I remember that you avoid talking about having used EBVTIII, when you tune for other musicians, to avoid that sort of offense.

Visit my class, it may help you to understand my tuning model as something pretty natural. I see a good chance that your ears may also follow then.
Posted by: Bernhard Stopper

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/06/11 02:34 AM

Update in progress...
Posted by: pppat

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/06/11 08:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

I am still guesssing what may cause your concerns about this aspect in my tuning. (Remember that your concerns included much more aspects at the beginning. For example your questioning of Wolfgang Dauner´s hearing (he was appreciating my tuning) because of his age, as you found the treble of my tunings to be stretched uncomfortably high at that time. Recently you were appreciating pure duodecimes yourself for the treble stretch and speak about your melodic ear (aged pretty fast?)). Remember your complaints about missing coherence in my tunings? Recently you also expressed your preference for duodecimes in the bass (with the higher involved bass partials, like 6/2 or 9/3) but for the midrange you are still fighting against them? How does this go together with the principle of coherence? I tend to believe that it is not your hearing that causes your offense, but rather your knowledge that it is something different, so it must be unnatural. I remember that you avoid talking about having used EBVTIII, when you tune for other musicians, to avoid that sort of offense.

Visit my class, it may help you to understand my tuning model as something pretty natural. I see a good chance that your ears may also follow then.


Now, hold on - I don't think I questioned Dauner's hearing, and if I did so I'm quite sure it was in a humorous manner. I simply stated that the older you get, the higher you'd like the upper part of the piano. I have encountered this several times in my musical everyday life, everything from singers pitching way above, to me myself stretching more with the earplugs inserted (thus kind of simulating older ears).

The pure duodecimes in the treble worked frighteningly well on the Yamaha U3 with EBVT III. I so hoped that I'd found something really good, and I was going to write you that night because the sound of the piano was truly awesome. Then I thought I'd hold on until I got a 2nd opinion, and when I tried the same thing on the Steinway B next night it didn't work at all :-/

And yes, I still tune the bass with a mix of 3:1 6:2 and 9:3, and I really like that sound. I see no contradiction between liking that sound and preferring a tighter midrange.

I think I expressed something about I liked the way it projected into the room in my OP comments on Isaac's sound clip. But no, I wouldn't like playing chords in the midrange of a cordier-type tuning.

Lastly, these are my aural impressions only. I do like your symmetric approach to piano tuning and I think your concept is personal and appealing to a lot of tuners and musicians. I'm sorry that I don't like this sound myself, but I can't help it. For any of my remarks you have a multitude of others endorsing it, so you must be doing good smile
Posted by: Bernhard Stopper

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/06/11 09:10 AM

Originally Posted By: pppat


I simply stated that the older you get, the higher you'd like the upper part of the piano.

You stated this in return to my reference of Dauner´s appreciation of my tuning and i can see no humour in this statement in this context. It was a clear ramp against my tuning implying that it may be appreciated by musicians with aged hearing.

Originally Posted By: pppat

The pure duodecimes in the treble worked frighteningly well on the Yamaha U3 with EBVT III. I so hoped that I'd found something really good, and I was going to write you that night because the sound of the piano was truly awesome. Then I thought I'd hold on until I got a 2nd opinion, and when I tried the same thing on the Steinway B next night it didn't work at all :-/

I never promised that pure duodecimes work well on any piano with unequal temperaments. What i am stating is, that it works well on any piano with an equal temperament based on aurally pure duodecimes, as the beat masking effect is at the maximum then, along with improved melodic justness.

Originally Posted By: pppat

And yes, I still tune the bass with a mix of 3:1 6:2 and 9:3, and I really like that sound. I see no contradiction between liking that sound and preferring a tighter midrange.

To me, it is a clear contradiciton of the coherence principle, to use pure duodecimes in the treble and bass, but not in the midrange. And by the way, today you posted in the EBVTIII thread, that you are using a 6:3 octave type in the midrange. This can come pretty close with a pure duodecime width on an instrument with a typical inharmonicity profile. To me, your hearing is different from what you are doing, because you want your hearing to be so. I believe your mind doesn´t want to accept something that is different from what you learned and have been accustomed to (for example to keyboard tunings in plain standard ET) so far in your life.

PS: I have to leave discussions now because of lack of time.

Posted by: pppat

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/06/11 09:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

To me, it is a clear contradiciton of the coherence principle, to use duodecimes in the treble and bass, but not in the midrange.

Yes, I think you've made very clear that you want pure 12ths all over the piano. There are other ways of tuning, though.


Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

And by the way, today you posted in the EBVTIII thread, that you are using a 6:3 octave type in the midrange. This can come pretty close with a pure duodecime width on an instrument with a typical inharmonicity profile. To me, your hearing is different from what you are doing, because you want your hearing to be so. I believe your mind doesn´t want to accept something that is different from what you learned and have been accustomed to (for example to keyboard tunings in plain standard ET) so far in your life.


Now, this is not the first time I get misquoted, or then you simply can not comprehend. This happens time after time, and I'm getting a little tired of it.

This is what I wrote in the EBVT III/TuneLab thread:

Originally Posted By: pppat

I have an idea that might be worth a try before going split scale. From my aural tuning experience, the "octave size mean" in this part of the piano (across the tenor break) is 6:3. They usually work on small instruments as well as on large ones (although I sometimes go beyond 6:3's on really nice full-scaled grands)


Did I write that I tune the whole midrange in 6:3? Of course not. You have to stop misquoting me just to prove your point.
Posted by: Bernhard Stopper

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/06/11 09:58 AM

Originally Posted By: pppat

There are other ways of tuning, though.

I never stated the opposite. Throwing in arbitrary true statements does not invalidate my statement about the coherence violation. I never stated that a tuning must be coherent, but coherence was one of your own preferences when argumenting against my tunings.

Originally Posted By: pppat


Did I write that I tune the whole midrange in 6:3? Of course not. You have to stop misquoting me just to prove your point.


Did i write which part of the midrange i was mentioning? Sorry i see no misquote. What is tiring to me, is that you often forget what you have said previously and what is often in a contradiction of what you are saying later. (see your statement about Cordier tuning for example).
Posted by: pppat

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/06/11 01:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
I never stated that a tuning must be coherent, but coherence was one of your own preferences when argumenting against my tunings.


This might be a language issue. When I speak about together, coherent or whatever, I basically mean that I do not particularly like when the piano sounds like it is tuned to several pitches at once.

That is my impression of your pure 12ths tuning, and I find it even more prominent in the video clip for the german seminar. I can't help that my ears don't like it. Like I said before, there are many others that do like it. This should be enough confirmation that your tuning is good.

Anyways, this discussion is not exactly going anywhere, we are just wasting each others energy. I remember me stating that EBVT-dislikers shouldn't feel that they have to repeat their feelings about the temperament into boredom and back. I realize that I'm not exactly better myself smile So, let's just drop this and get on with other more productive stuff.
Posted by: Bernhard Stopper

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/06/11 03:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
The video trailer for my class (Tuning the Stopper OnlyPure Temperament Aurally) had a little flaw in one of the text windows, here is the new version:



Bernhard Stopper


I am also offering the OnlyPure class in June in germany, for those thinking about attending my class at the PTG convention, the german video trailer may be of some interest too, as it contains another tuning record (Beethoven), here is the video:

Posted by: Chris A.C.

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/13/11 06:05 PM

Hey Ryan,
You may want to ask Darrell Fandrich. I think he's already planning on going. A class on action geometry
from him alone would make me go to KC. And he's driving. I was at his shop the other day and his actions are out of this world nice!!
Posted by: Chris A.C.

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/15/11 12:25 AM

0
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/15/11 01:32 AM

Chris,

It's funny you mention it. Here is his offering with John Rhodes:

Taming Inertia: Creating a Touch to Die For
Darrell Fandrich, RPT, Seattle, WA Chapter and John Rhodes, RPT, Portland, OR Chapter


Excessive inertia is the hugely critical gremlin responsible for the heavy tendon-tearing touch that plagues players of the majority of new pianos and rebuilds. This class gives you practical tools to accurately quantify, predict and correct action inertia – resulting in a touch to die for…every time.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/19/11 08:00 PM


Last May I had Darryl Fandrich in my backyard along with 35 other members when I hosted a BBQ for the PTG Canada (now CAPT). I had an opportunity to chat with him for a while; nice fellow… he will talk all day long about pianos if you like……..
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 04/20/11 01:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

; nice fellow…he will talk all day long about pianos if you like……..


Actually, Darrell will happily talk all through the night too!
Posted by: M.O.P.

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 06/14/11 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: rysowers
Chris,

It's funny you mention it. Here is his offering with John Rhodes:

Taming Inertia: Creating a Touch to Die For
Darrell Fandrich, RPT, Seattle, WA Chapter and John Rhodes, RPT, Portland, OR Chapter


Excessive inertia is the hugely critical gremlin responsible for the heavy tendon-tearing touch that plagues players of the majority of new pianos and rebuilds. This class gives you practical tools to accurately quantify, predict and correct action inertia – resulting in a touch to die for…every time.


Unfortunately, we received an email from the PTG on June 3rd that this class has been cancelled. The PTG website has all of the updates of who's teaching what & which classes are still available.
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 06/14/11 10:59 PM

Thanks for bringing this up, M.O.P. The good news is that next year the conference will be in Bellevue, Washington, which is just an hour and half away from the Fandrich's home. They felt really bad about not being able to teach this year, but are very excited to present an even better program next year!
Posted by: M.O.P.

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 06/15/11 02:23 PM

Washington? Oh, that's excellent news! I love the Bellevue area. I talked to Barbara Fandrich a couple of weeks ago & they are very excited about their new home. smile Anyway, Kansas City is still offering great classes & lots to do after hours - we're looking forward to seeing old friends and making new ones!
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 06/16/11 08:04 AM

Yes, there most certainly are lots of classes to choose from alright! That's always been my biggest problem!! Which ones to attend! I'll be there too as will my son! Looking forward to it! Tons of new classes....cool!

I took the liberty of using the availability of the PTG website that shows all of the classes to send the link to several of my clients including my college so they could have a look-see at what types of classes we have available for technicians to attend. Most people don't have a clue that we can attend such wonderful events let alone that we even have any at all. All of my clients were very surprised at the variety of them and were also very impressed as to who some of the speakers were to be as well as the fact that so many manufacturer's are there. smile
Posted by: Chuck Behm

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 06/18/11 12:19 AM

Everybody be sure to stop by my piano promo booth in the Exhibit Hall. I wanted to have my coffee pot to give away free coffee, but the coffee Nazis have put the thumbscrews to me on that one.

I am, however, planning to bake 12 dozen (that's really gross!) homemade chocolate cookies to give away to anyone who stops by - so be sure to get yours!

Plus, I'll be giving away a piano repair truck from Schaff. If you don't have one, you don't know what you're missing. Stop by for the particulars.

See you all there! Chuck
Posted by: wayne walker

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 06/18/11 05:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm
Everybody be sure to stop by my piano promo booth in the Exhibit Hall. I wanted to have my coffee pot to give away free coffee, but the coffee Nazis have put the thumbscrews to me on that one.

I am, however, planning to bake 12 dozen (that's really gross!) homemade chocolate cookies to give away to anyone who stops by - so be sure to get yours!

Plus, I'll be giving away a piano repair truck from Schaff. If you don't have one, you don't know what you're missing. Stop by for the particulars.

See you all there! Chuck


you need to do a photo shoot for making the cookies
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 06/21/11 12:34 PM

Time is ticking away, but it is not too late to come to the convention in Kansas City!


One of the best things you can do for your career as a technician is attend the terrific business classes that are available and taught by some of the must successful techs in the business. Here's some examples:

45 Ways to Make Your Business More Successful by the PTG Economic Affairs Committee: Dozens of tips you can start using right away to get more clients, build your reputation, and boost your income!

The Business of Rebuilding by Wally Brooks: Learn proven approaches to coming up with professional estimates, appraisals, and contracts. Learn to successfully sell large and small restorations while covering your backside!

Cash is King! by Bruce Genck: A fast-paced information packed class presented by a 30-year professional.

Ethics by Isaac Sadigursky: You deal with some delicate issues with clients and colleagues everyday. Discuss ethical issues that affect your business and how to address them.

Gut Taxes by John Gallen: Taxes got you down? Let's gut your taxes. Are you doing what you can to lessen your tax burden? How will recent tax changes affect you and your business? Find all the Dutch loop-holes to which you are entitled!

Point Blank Business Plus Plus by Jack Wyatt: This is an updated version of Jacks famous and popular business class. Jack has definitely been an inspiration to me over the years! Much income is left unearned for services that pianos desperately need. By not pointing this out, we do our customers, our profession, and ourselves a great disservice.

Pricing Piano Service by Dale Probst: Explore a skill that is indispensable in developing a successful piano service business. Unfortunately, this critical segment of our craft continue to be mysterious, misunderstood, and even ignored.
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 06/21/11 01:09 PM

I definitely plan on going to at least 2 of these myself!!! I love these kinds of classes!
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/20/11 11:57 AM

I actually wound up taking in these 3 classes that Ryan posted.

45 Ways to Make Your Business More Successful by the PTG Economic Affairs Committee: Dozens of tips you can start using right away to get more clients, build your reputation, and boost your income!

Cash is King! by Bruce Genck: A fast-paced information packed class presented by a 30-year professional.

Point Blank Business Plus Plus by Jack Wyatt: This is an updated version of Jacks famous and popular business class. Jack has definitely been an inspiration to me over the years! Much income is left unearned for services that pianos desperately need. By not pointing this out, we do our customers, our profession, and ourselves a great disservice.

I just couldn't get out of bed for Dale's class on piano pricing.... To darn tired.... But, the other 3 were fantastic!
Posted by: Rockin'88

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/20/11 12:12 PM

Wow! Wouldn't it be great if the PTG made transcripts or videos of these classes for sale to members at a later date?
Posted by: Rockin'88

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/20/11 12:13 PM

Wow! Wouldn't it be great if the PTG made transcripts or videos of these classes for sale to members at a later date?
Posted by: M.O.P.

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/20/11 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm
Everybody be sure to stop by my piano promo booth in the Exhibit Hall. I wanted to have my coffee pot to give away free coffee, but the coffee Nazis have put the thumbscrews to me on that one.

I am, however, planning to bake 12 dozen (that's really gross!) homemade chocolate cookies to give away to anyone who stops by - so be sure to get yours!

Plus, I'll be giving away a piano repair truck from Schaff. If you don't have one, you don't know what you're missing. Stop by for the particulars.

See you all there! Chuck


Hmmmmm, as many times as I stopped by, I never did see any of those cookies... smile
Posted by: rysowers

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/21/11 02:20 PM

Ha ha! Yeah! Where are the cookies Chuck?? You'll have to make 24 dozen for next year to make up for it! grin
Posted by: pppat

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011 - 07/23/11 05:45 PM

Feedback time... I had a hard time concentrating on anything but my upcoming tech exam, but still I scheduled classes. I'm glad I did.

Don Mannino's vertical regulation class was awesome.

The 37 steps with Yamaha were the best steps I've ever climbed, although we only got to 25 or so.

The tuning classes of Bremmer/Stopper/Andersen gave me the full spectra. Soon I will find my own space in there smile