Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix

Posted by: Loren D

Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 01:07 PM

His method of repairing loose tuning pins by inserting corrugated cardboard, to be precise.

Now, I'm thinking.....what really is a valid reason as to why it wouldn't work? I understand that the cardboard will eventually disintegrate, but it will take many, many movements of the pin before that would happen. In other words, years of tunings.

Second....let's say it does disintegrate. It's still leaving the fiber in the hole between it and the pin.

I know it seems like an unorthodox repair that a lot of us just summarily dismissed, but when really thinking about it, I'm not sure I can come up with a real reason why it wouldn't work.

Many repairs we take for granted today were unorthodox at one time (CA glue in piano repair, for instance).

So.....?
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 01:16 PM

Why not just replace the tuning pin with a size or two larger and be done with it forever? smile
Posted by: That Guy

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 02:13 PM

Personally I wasn't questioning whether it works but why not just use CA glue or like Jerry said just put in an oversized pin. I guess if neither of those is an option (I don't have any oversized pins or CA glue) then it seems like an okay option. It certainly won't hurt anything will it?
Posted by: Roy Rodgers

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 02:15 PM

Max (and many others) may not have ready access to various size tuning pins along with many other parts. So if using this method helps the piano stay in tune longer without a lot of expense, then I say great.

Not everyone has the advantage we do in the U.S. on being able to get parts.

Shoot, one time I tried those split metal shims to tighten tuning pins. Got a lot left too cause I didn't like the way they worked.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 02:43 PM

Jerry and others, yes, other methods do work. But that's not in itself a reason to use a different method that might also work.

Oversize pins can cause more problems if the block is already weak or cracking.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 02:49 PM


Nope! as soon there are 2or 3carboard shims, the
pano will desintegrates.

Originally Posted By: That Guy
Personally I wasn't questioning whether it works but why not just use CA glue or like Jerry said just put in an oversized pin. I guess if neither of those is an option (I don't have any oversized pins or CA glue) then it seems like an okay option. It certainly won't hurt anything will it?
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 02:51 PM


I wonder if there ever will be a time when people are mindful of where this fellow lives and how people live there. It is not with the availability of riches we witness in the west by a long shot.

Max makes do with the tools, supplies, and the experience that he has. If I lived in that poverty stricken life I would probably be doing the same…………. Actually there is no probably about it.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 03:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Kamin

Nope! as soon there are 2or 3carboard shims, the
pano will desintegrates.

Originally Posted By: That Guy
Personally I wasn't questioning whether it works but why not just use CA glue or like Jerry said just put in an oversized pin. I guess if neither of those is an option (I don't have any oversized pins or CA glue) then it seems like an okay option. It certainly won't hurt anything will it?


Not necessarily. If a few pins need tightened and this method works, how is that different from any other method that works?
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 03:18 PM

I'm just asking for a good reason NOT to use that method. I really can't think of one. Can anyone else?
Posted by: pianolive

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 03:40 PM

Nope! as soon there are 2or 3carboard shims, the
pano will desintegrates.

Pure nonsens. The only thing that counts is the result.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 03:59 PM

I seem to remember it does not allow for a normal pin setting, or not for long.

And the piano disintegrates, may be after 3 or for of those cardboard are inserted. I heard of witnessing of some rare auto ignition occurrences, too.
Posted by: Dave B

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 05:13 PM

I agree Loren, I don't think it matters what you use. I've repaired a few loose pins in an old Steinway "B" with used pieces of sandpaper.

We might have a 102 uses for the business card.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 05:47 PM

Yep, Dave! How many times have I shimmed a front rail with one? smile
Posted by: That Guy

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 09:58 PM

Quote:
Max makes do with the tools, supplies, and the experience that he has. If I lived in that poverty stricken life I would probably be doing the same…………. Actually there is no probably about it.


Agreed. That was my point that he makes do with what he has and we should all be mindful of that.
Posted by: That Guy

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/26/12 09:59 PM

Quote:
I'm just asking for a good reason NOT to use that method. I really can't think of one. Can anyone else?


Nope.
Posted by: Ed Foote

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/27/12 12:15 AM

>>I'm just asking for a good reason NOT to use that method. I really can't think of one. Can anyone else?<<

Yes, I can think of several. A real strong reason is that the cardboard is less effective and durable than a variety of other materials that we tried.
An old traditional way is to plane a shaving of hardwood from a plank and insert that into the hole. Another is to use sandpaper, grit side away from the pin. A piece of brass, half the circumference of the hole was also superior to fiberboard or cardboard.
The value of the repair was determined after numerous pin movements. Everything was tight at first, but some of the materials loosened more quickly than others. The cardboard was the loosest of the bunch.
Regards,
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/27/12 12:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
>>I'm just asking for a good reason NOT to use that method. I really can't think of one. Can anyone else?<<

Yes, I can think of several. A real strong reason is that the cardboard is less effective and durable than a variety of other materials that we tried.
An old traditional way is to plane a shaving of hardwood from a plank and insert that into the hole. Another is to use sandpaper, grit side away from the pin. A piece of brass, half the circumference of the hole was also superior to fiberboard or cardboard.
The value of the repair was determined after numerous pin movements. Everything was tight at first, but some of the materials loosened more quickly than others. The cardboard was the loosest of the bunch.
Regards,


but once instructed our Russian friend stick and praise to his superior method!
Shaves or hard wood are so difficult to find!
so, to me, the heck with it until better. .

One need to know how to set the pins before ascertain that a process is efficient or no.

Which side of the hole the brass sheet ? I would put it on the opposite side of the "bed" of the pin, but I dont know.
The advantage is that it is not to be replaced when changing a string, hence its use on historical instruments and harpsichords.
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/27/12 06:52 AM

Cardboard is A way to do a temporary quick fix, as is sandpaper, super glue (so it appears ) and veneer, but I find doing things like this take a darn site longer than just replacing with a over size wrestpin. If the plank has split however, nothing will work. wink
Posted by: rxd

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/27/12 09:31 AM

The whole point of using a narrow shim of hardwood veneer rather than one covering the complete circumference of the pin was to place it on one side of the pin, not front or back, in case the block was split or about to split, there would be no added pressure from a shim that would force the split further apart. I have known repairs like this last for years.
Walnut was prefered because it was possible to cut thinner veneers out of it.

This was regarded as the safest repair in the days of solid pinblocks. Laminated pinblocks changed all this but always consider the age of the piano and the likelihood of it having a solid block in choosing a repair method.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/27/12 09:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
The cardboard was the loosest of the bunch.

When friction between pin and wood hole is no longer enough to provide the necessary tension of the strings on the classical technology seeks to restore pin's wood hole or hammers pin of larger diameter (oversize), or a conclusion about the impossibility of restoring the piano
Thus, the pin can be, with some approximation, of course, be regarded as a classic bolt. And that can happen with a threaded connection, if the bolt is screwed into the nut, which has much lower strength material? It's had bad connection and poor friction .
I don't beats new pins (larger diameter).I am force the turning (old) pin into the seat (wood hole) while gradually screwing it in.
The most productive and durable (oddly enough) was use corrugated cardboard, which provides the required quality and the restoration takes place fairly quickly, with virtually no material costs without the risk of "disorder" of neighboring pins, which inevitably arises in the classic to hammering on pin. Depending on the compound, this material allows for multiple settings for a long time operation of the piano.

Respected masters technicians of my compliments, thank you discussing this issue. A special thank you to the topic mentioned my name. I would like this discuss has been constructive. I have repeatedly said that this is my way. I assure you that the Russian people wrote words of gratitude for my method. I am very embarrassed, but I have a sense of ownership with the owners of the piano in Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Slovakia, Russia and others, who own their own pianos repaired independently. They twist themselves the T-bars. I agree with the forum participants that the procedure does not always save any piano, but we would try to make this.
What's new maxim_tuner's advice?
1 Do not remove a string from with pin, when we twist off it
2 Do not hammer pin
3 The effectiveness of this method is that the additional friction itself does not work. We destroyed shim a screwed pin into pinblock . A shim destroyed in the process of this screwing the particles of cellulose and warmed the glue. A cellulose's particles is filled of a crack in the pinblock.
4 I am against use any glue
5 I am against any metal shims inserts
6 My YourTube Channel for simple laymen who sees, think and decide.
To be or not to be?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGk3dS6dKow
Posted by: mariotto

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/27/12 09:55 AM

I use wrest plank plugs when there is a cracked pinblock. It is fairly good method. I do not belive that max idea is good enough...Metal bushing can also help, cardboard, do not think it is the good way...
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/27/12 10:58 AM

It's a good, productive discussion, I think!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/28/12 12:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Roy Rodgers
So if using this method helps the piano stay in tune longer without a lot of expense, then I say great.

Of course it would be immodest on my part, but I must in topic publicate this . I'm repeat not trying to be a prophet, imposes its own ideas. I do it just to draw attention to the general problem of poor fixation pins off. It is a pity that most people wrote Russian about this problem , but there are in English too

kamil-koma
23 января, 2011 года, 14:17
Категорически не согласен в обвинениях в непрофессионализме. Главное чтобы колок держал, а он реально держит. Я отстроил свое старенькое пианино на котором обучались трое моих детей.
Только проложил один слой гофрокартона в виде трубочки, а затем ввинчивал колок, предварительно продув отверстие сжатым воздухом.
Кстати места трений струны смазал графитовой смазкой. Так делается при отстройке "машинок" на стратокастерах.
Еще раз большое спасибо за абсолютно не затратный способ быстрого восстановления инструмента.
Thank you! :-)
RonPaulSongs 1 год назад
По поводу "портянок" из наждачки, жести и некоего непонятного материала, пропитанного эпоксидкой (который иногда вываливается из-под вынимаемого вирбеля), могу сказать, что это вандализм и невежество, основанное на незнании матчасти.
NatalyShNA1 1 месяц назад
Установка полоски из наждачной бумаги под колок это действительно неправильный метод. Если учесть, тот факт, что колок потом ещё и забивается. Увы, полоска н/б своими абразивными зёрнами "убивает" и без того уже сработанное посадочное место под колком. Иногда, некоторые мастера ратуют за использование всевозможных эпоксидных смол. Я против этой методики, потому, что приходилось обслуживать такие пианино, колки не фиксировали нужного тона.
TheMaximillyan в ответ на NatalyShNA1 1 месяц назад
Неоднократно пользовалась методикой, предложенной Максимом. Это действительно работает. Максиму респект и спасибо за четкие пошаговые инструкции! В качестве материала уплотнителя также сначала использовала гофрокартон, затем нашла более убедительный материал - картон, из которого обычно изготавливают коробки для чая в пакетиках smile
NatalyShNA1 1 месяц назад
Благодарю за ценный совет, Максим! Обязательно воспользуюсь. По поводу радикального забивания колков всё-таки имею возражение. В таком капризном элементе, как вирбельбанк, любой удар молотком деструктивно сказывается на соседних посадочных гнездах (особенно в "усталых" инструментах) и, как следствие, увеличивает время настройки. Молоток уместен, но в гомеопатических дозах. Остальное - вкручиванием. Приятных вам инструментов!
NatalyShNA1 в ответ на Maxim Gorkiy (Показать комментарий) 1 нед. назад

Perhaps a video showing us how to do it the "right" way would be of interest to all those doing it "wrong"?
I tune my piano myself, and have many people say I am doing it "wrong" yet, it serves me quite well. I have not mastered the art of setting all the pins yet, some hold better than others. My piano isn't a very good one as in, it's not expensive, though I do enjoy the technical aspect of the instrument just as much as playing it.
I found this video very inspirational (inspirational.)
DumpYourTelevision в ответ на buttercupaz1 (Показать комментарий) 6 мес. Назад

SEI UN GRANDE TECNICO COMPLIMENTI.!!!
CONTINUA COSI'
caimano655 7 мес. назад

Grazie per apprezzare il mio lavoro! Cordiali saluti, sintonizzatore maxim_tuner
TheMaximillyan в ответ на caimano655 (Показать комментарий) 7 мес. назад

grisha8488
настройка пианино
Максим здравствуйте !!!! Хочу выразить огромную благодарность за ваши ролики и советы, я очень рад что есть такие люди как вы, я по вашему методу реставрировал пианино Красный Октябрь старое начала 60 годом пианино моей мамы ... последнее время считалось безнадежным так как строй совершенно не держало большенство колков не держали вообще , при настройке на глазах вращался назад в месте с ключем...если можно то как с вами связаться не в ютубе, и поговорить а по возможности созвониться или как то через интернет созвониться скайп или подобно. я сам из города Челябинск буду очень ждать от вас ответ !
с уважением Григорий


Smok


Ответ от: 28.01.2011 16:31:11

Совершенно случайно натолкнулся на эту статью, заинтересовало- прочел до конца. Я конечно не специалист в области настройки и ремонта музыкальных инструментов, но зато неплохо разбираюсь в резьбовых соединениях, и если механизм используемый в колках сделан по этому принципу, то метод предложеный автором Maximillyan должен работаь. Как говорят, "все гениальное-просто". А что касается неприятия большинством, так опять-же "Есть два мнения- мое и неправильное". Понятно, с одной стороны мастера всю жизнь занимающиеся этим исскуством (иначе назвать язык не поворачивается), с другой какой-то чудак с картонкой. Со своей позиции могу сказать одно, в ремонте механизмов приходится иногда и не такие "чудеса" применять. Если принцип работает, и с его помощью удается оживить даже безнадежные инструменты,то хочется пожелать автору успехов в его нужном деле. С уважением.
Posted by: Supply

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/28/12 12:33 AM

Quote:
..repairing loose tuning pins by inserting corrugated cardboard..


How about starting with a review of terminology???
For those who have never held a cardboard box, corrugated cardboard looks like this:



...try shoving some of that down a tuning pin hole thumb laugh
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/28/12 12:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Supply
[quote]corrugated cardboard looks like this:

Thank you,Supply . A Savior of verticals our is corrugated cardboard ! It's it on picture
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/28/12 11:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Loren D
His method of repairing loose tuning pins by inserting corrugated cardboard, to be precise.

Now, I'm thinking.....what really is a valid reason as to why it wouldn't work? I understand that the cardboard will eventually disintegrate, but it will take many, many movements of the pin before that would happen. In other words, years of tunings.

Second....let's say it does disintegrate. It's still leaving the fiber in the hole between it and the pin.

I know it seems like an unorthodox repair that a lot of us just summarily dismissed, but when really thinking about it, I'm not sure I can come up with a real reason why it wouldn't work.

Many repairs we take for granted today were unorthodox at one time (CA glue in piano repair, for instance).

So.....?


The of the method is exceptions to classic rule. You are right,Loren D that the cardboard is already in the process of screwing partially destroyed. When a pin screwed into place, it is not a strip thickness of 3mm. Are where disintegrate fragments of cellulose? It's disintegrate the strip basis of cardboard off and filled the cracks of bush-pinblock. Usually a pin hammered, I screwed it.
How it do:
1 A shim is not displaced in the process of screwing.
2 A pin acts as an iron (утюг) and dryer together. The fact is, there is something similar like the glue and pasting on a circle of cellulose on bush and pinblock's hole a new wood's layer . And at the same time polished it's. In fact, we just been repaired the pindlock's hole. End result is a relatively "new hole", a little reduced in diameter.
3 "The new friction" provide two materials - "eaten strip of cardboard" and disintegrated pulp
4 A follow the tuning after a year, for example, does not affect the technical characteristics of the "cured pin." There is one "but". After the initial installation shim it very tightly regulate tuning hammer.
5 The "old pin" is not suffering, is not subject to any deformation and remains in the same technical characteristics as it was originally.
6 Any other shim is expensive, in contrast to the corrugated cardboard
7 Any man watching my film can do it. One woman from Ukraine forced to watch a movie of her husband. He looked it and how she writes, " and he made pins!"
I have a big request to the masters- technicians of is not to condemn my method, if themself do not made this experiment. Sincerely,maxim_tuner
Posted by: mariotto

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 02:57 AM

Max are you avare of the tension tuning pins have to hold? Do you realy think a cardboard can be a valid fix for a loose pin? I understand your lack of resources, I come from a country that was a communist one and can understand the conditions in which you work. But, maybe you should slow down a little bit and listen to the advices of a more experienced and trained techs. I do so even today although I have more than 10 years of experience...
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 03:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Mariotto
Max are you avare of the tension tuning pins have to hold? Do you realy think a cardboard can be a valid fix for a loose pin? I do so even today although I have more than 10 years of experience...

Dear MariottoYou have understood that I am very limited in resources and use what I have in my practice. I am always looking for professional advice on our forum. However, the "cardboard and pin" is topic, which I successfully made in my district many years in past and I does it now . I tested a lot of other stuff and materials. The truth is that shim works. I hope that you will soon discover it for themselves. It is waiting for your experiment with cardboard. But communistic past is my past. Then I very good lived and I sincerely believed in humanistic ideal of the communism
Can You do short clip about this procedure?
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 03:42 AM

The idea is to understand what the pin have to do in the hole, then the resources to correct a too loose pin are limited (thicker one pin, new wood, brass foil)

The elasticity of the cellulose may tighten the hole but it may not allow to lock the pin for long. Old blocks anyway are loosing their resiliency in the zone around the pin, the resiliency "migrates deeper in the block and the area around the pin is not resilient.
That, plus the wear is what makes even thicker pins not so efficient at some point, or not for long. Then indeed an experienced tuner will be able to tighten a tuning pin even in an old ovalised block
(I suggest that the pin when torqued, deforms, at some point, and then it will take an adapted shape that allow to some better grip)

The point is to know how to manipulate the tuning lever when the pin holding is basically poor, and obtain a bit of pin torque despite that. It can be surprizing .
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 03:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
The idea is to understand what the pin have to do in the hole, then the resources to correct a too loose pin are limited (thicker one pin, new wood, brass foil)

The elasticity of the cellulose may tighten the hole but it may not allow to lock the pin for long. Old blocks anyway are loosing their resiliency in the zone around the pin, the resiliency "migrates deeper in the block and the area around the pin is not resilient.
That, plus the wear is what makes even thicker pins not so efficient at some point, or not for long. Then indeed an experienced tuner will be able to tighten a tuning pin even in an old ovalised block
(I suggest that the pin when torqued, deforms, at some point, and then it will take an adapted shape that allow to some better grip)

The point is to know how to manipulate the tuning lever when the pin holding is basically poor, and obtain a bit of pin torque despite that. It can be surprizing .

Kamin,I agree with your every word here
Posted by: mariotto

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 04:48 AM

Dear Max,
I allways try to do the best I can, even, I have to admit that due to the past which left our market with a lot of poor quallity east block pianos, sometimes it is impossible to do anything because a fix often would exceed the value of the instrument itself. So many times I leave it as it is or fix it just to have a basic funcionallity. I could belive that a cardboard could help a little bit, but it cannot be a valid and proffessional fix. It simply cannot be. Cellulose will eventually burn out in the hole. I admire your persistance but it has to have its limit. About communism we could talk, but I do not think we would agree on that metter. I would say only that if it wouldnt be so in the past, today you could simply order the tools you need from renner or any other supplyer and work with the highest standards...we wouldnt have this disscution today, maybe you would post on the theme Steinway or Fazioli....
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 05:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Mariotto
So many times I leave it as it is or fix it just to have a basic funcionallity. I could belive that a cardboard could help a little bit, but it cannot be a valid and proffessional fix. Cellulose will eventually burn out in the hole.

Dear Mariotto,cellulose can not be burned when we to screw pin into pinblock used T-bar. It's more of fantasy. You raised the question correctly profitability rehabilitation including repair of pins and price upright piano. In Uralsk, Kazakhstan old Soviet piano is from 50-100 U.S. dollars, and if you do quality repairs then the price will increase a hundredfold. Therefore the client will remain with the non-playing piano. So I use a shim's method. For example, I replaced the 10 pins in 3 octave. The piano will activity for a year or more. I got a little fee 10-15 U.S. dollars. И волки сыты и овцы целы("The wolves are fed and the sheep are safe"). Maybe you're right, say that this repair is a necessary measure with a minimal budget to repair the piano located in between "the hospital resuscitation and the Gates of paradise"
P.S I Wait Your film about " Max's cardboard fix"
Regards
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 06:06 AM

Reactionary skepticism British men about Max's shim cardboard fix
http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forums/viewtopic.php?p=44631
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 06:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Mariotto
So many times I leave it as it is or fix it just to have a basic funcionallity. I could belive that a cardboard could help a little bit, but it cannot be a valid and proffessional fix. Cellulose will eventually burn out in the hole.

Dear Mariotto,cellulose can not be burned when we to screw pin into pinblock used T-bar. It's more of fantasy. You raised the question correctly profitability rehabilitation including repair of pins and price upright piano. In Uralsk, Kazakhstan old Soviet piano is from 50-100 U.S. dollars, and if you do quality repairs then the price will increase a hundredfold. Therefore the client will remain with the non-playing piano. So I use a shim's method. For example, I replaced the 10 pins in 3 octave. The piano will activity for a year or more. I got a little fee 10-15 U.S. dollars. И волки сыты и овцы целы("The wolves are fed and the sheep are safe"). Maybe you're right, say that this repair is a necessary measure with a minimal budget to repair the piano located in between "the hospital resuscitation and the Gates of paradise"
P.S I Wait Your film about " Max's cardboard fix"
Regards


I suggest that no one is bashing you for trying to repair tired pianos with very limited budgets and gaining very little money, but the advantage of this sort of forum is to use experience from others and to find new points of view on subjects we are yet treating daily with acceptable success.

as eventual other methods where not tested this say enough about your willingness to learn to do better with limited means.

There was a discussion about a product sold that was supposed to add new cellulose to wood also. I dont hear about it anymore those days.

Having a drink of vodka usually also repair most of the pianos wink
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 06:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Mariotto
So many times I leave it as it is or fix it just to have a basic funcionallity. I could belive that a cardboard could help a little bit, but it cannot be a valid and proffessional fix. Cellulose will eventually burn out in the hole.

Dear Mariotto,cellulose can not be burned when we to screw pin into pinblock used T-bar. It's more of fantasy. You raised the question correctly profitability rehabilitation including repair of pins and price upright piano. In Uralsk, Kazakhstan old Soviet piano is from 50-100 U.S. dollars, and if you do quality repairs then the price will increase a hundredfold. Therefore the client will remain with the non-playing piano. So I use a shim's method. For example, I replaced the 10 pins in 3 octave. The piano will activity for a year or more. I got a little fee 10-15 U.S. dollars. И волки сыты и овцы целы("The wolves are fed and the sheep are safe"). Maybe you're right, say that this repair is a necessary measure with a minimal budget to repair the piano located in between "the hospital resuscitation and the Gates of paradise"
P.S I Wait Your film about " Max's cardboard fix"
Regards


Having a drink of vodka usually also repair most of the pianos wink



To me very sad to hear the words of "vodka" after it as you wrote, I'll be able to work miracles. I do not drink alcohol than before or after repair. Nevertheless, the proposed methods shim in our forum, sorry not effective, I know this from his own experiments. To be consistent, it is necessary to deny the absurdity of the idea with the irrefutable evidence and technical facts or be silent. I will admit the failure of this method, if the parties to lay out their arguments against it. While I have not heard criticism against the absolute technical insolvency corrugated cardboard shim
Posted by: mariotto

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 07:00 AM

I am sure that Kamin did not want to insult you, rather to add a little bit of humor into disscution. I will not do a video with the repair, or even try it, I use wrest plank plugs or metal bushing, theye are available at retail at price of arround 2 EUR. I simply want the repairvto last more than a year...
All the best!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 07:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Mariotto
I am sure that Kamin did not want to insult you, rather to add a little bit of humor into disscution. I will not do a video with the repair, or even try it, I use wrest plank plugs or metal bushing, theye are available at retail at price of arround 2 EUR. I simply want the repairvto last more than a year...
All the best!

Alas metal shim 2 euro pieces are not available for my potential clients in the near future. I do not insist that you,Mariotto abandoned your proven practical methods. However, I am sorry that you did not experience the pleasure of cardboard shima. Sincerely,maxim_tuner
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 07:32 AM

Brass foil may be way cheaper and probably better than the metal plugs. Then nothing lost if the string breaks (the wood shaves does not stand for very long and have to be changed with the string.

But indeed the block may not be cracked.

Wood plugs can be done, if you use a lot buying the (expensive) tool to make them may be an option. you need 2 sorts one for the pins with wood bushings, and one larger. To be made in real Delignit block. As some of those those drills are made in Tcheckia or Hungary you may have access to them may be at a better price than us

http://www.outils-machines-haumesser.com/index.php?mod=shop&cat=126&pID=283

there are cheap versions but the lenght of the plug is only 12-20 mm at best.

Delignit brand is/was used for the floors of the trucks who travel with money from bank to bank. (may be another quality than the one for the pianos the glues may differ !)

So a piano tuner knows how to attack the truck, with a hammer and a tuning pin it may suffice wink

Sorry for the vodtka ! is not usually a big impeachment to work since you cut a hand or an arm.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 07:48 AM

I still say a shim is a shim is a shim. If sandpaper can work, I don't see why corrugated cardboard can't.

If the block needs replaced, then nothing short of replacing it is the correct fix. If block replacement is not an option, choose the method that's attainable,gives adequately good results, and minimizes stress on the instrument and surrounding pins.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 07:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin

Sorry for the vodtka ! is not usually a big impeachment to work since you cut a hand or an arm.

Brass foil is probably yes, but that at the time,when we will screw into or to hammer is to drive the negative effects of contact with the pin-chopping. Iron + iron, I think it is wrong and most importantly for not long
I take Your sorry Kamin, for the vodka made. However, I realized that it was a joke
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 08:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Loren D
I still say a shim is a shim is a shim. If sandpaper can work, I don't see why corrugated cardboard can't.

If the block needs replaced, then nothing short of replacing it is the correct fix. If block replacement is not an option, choose the method that's attainable,gives adequately good results, and minimizes stress on the instrument and surrounding pins.

Hi,Lorenit's wise words, born in your pin's experience pleasure for me to listen. Thank you so much! Regards
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 09:11 AM

This topic has been done to death, why bother debating any further. Yes it works ... but is not the best way for any respected professional to go about it. Humpty Dumpty was put back together again with vinegar and brown paper, rather than an "Eggspert" wink
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/29/12 09:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
This topic has been done to death, why bother debating any further. Yes it works ... but is not the best way for any respected professional to go about it. Humpty Dumpty was put back together again with vinegar and brown paper, rather than an "Eggspert" wink

Thank you Johnkie, descended down with thron and found that the right of existence of this method. This is not needed for me personally, but for hundreds of thousands of lay people in the world who are willing to correct their piano but they have not money, no skills. The topic will live , if we don't close the information gap, then at least try to involve ordinary laymen to the problem. Humpty Dumpty is a positive character, he, without any irony in a hurry to help anyone.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/31/12 03:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Supply




Yesterday, I used method of shim in the repair of landing places of the old Soviet piano "Заря"(Dawn) It was necessary to replace the 18 pins (part 3 octave), where they are located close to each other. The operation was successful. Operating time about 7 hours. A female client is an engineer-technologist. She said that in the russia manufacture of corrugated packaging is used glue. This is usually starch or calcium silicate. She understood from my words the entire installation process shima and believes that the adhesive in small quantities to help for hitch its strong fixation. She explained that the production of 2% use also used directly in the adhesive mass of cellulose. So our shim in contains made 5% starch or silicate glue
Posted by: Dave B

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 05/31/12 11:22 PM

Excellent point Max. I was wondering about that myself. I'm guessing the glue in the cardboard helps?

The thin CA glue penetrates into the wood. Which swells the wood back towards it's original shape and then the glue hardens to support the restored shape.

Does the glue sitting between the tuning pin and the wood have long term effects?
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/01/12 03:44 AM

I doubt that cured CA will have any long term effects. Cured CA is really just a hard plastic similar to acrylic/plexiglass/perspex.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/01/12 06:53 AM

I did try before changing a block, but with more standard CA quality, I poured really enough and waited, then the pin was even moving more easily than before (same with letoff dowels) the CA was acting as a lube.

But I will certainly give a try on the super thin just to understand.

What does not pleases me is that anyone is just accepting that "it works" without giving any explanation on why and how it works, for how long, etc. when cured it is somehow hard, but the thickness may be very little.

For a wrestplank, we need resiliency, or the wrestplanks would be way more hard that they are. could a mix CA/crushed wood make the good level of torque and friction ? What I suspect is that it just allows the pin to grip a little better. As it is done on old pianos with old strings who does not loose their pitch easily and have well pronounced bends and high friction on the rest felt, the need for a strong pin hold is not so important, then anything will allow for a better situation, CA being the easier and the faster to use (so you get good money with it wink

Then what happens if the piano have to be repaired with oversize pins ? I suppose the block have to be changed.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/01/12 07:03 AM

Was that Humty Dumpty the ancient father of all piano technicians ? To be honest I like those improvisations done in emergency on poor instruments, and I helped quite a few during holidays, with more or less only a tuning hammer and a screwdriver, but some are doing that in a more or less artistic way. For instance even if the was often having me laugh I liked the articles of Suzan Kline and some of her astute solutions for "junk pianos" .

But, having gained some good level of quality on really excellent instruments, that is very interesting to see how that can apply when by chance (!) I work on one of those older neglected pianos, some of them having some character and being eventual candidates for normal rebuilding. many of them having poorly setup action. (many brands where way better to produce decent belly work than keyboards and actions)
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/02/12 10:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Dave B
Excellent point Max. I was wondering about that myself. I'm guessing the glue in the cardboard helps?

The thin CA glue penetrates into the wood. Which swells the wood back towards it's original shape and then the glue hardens to support the restored shape.

Does the glue sitting between the tuning pin and the wood have long term effects?

Thank you, Dave B for your understanding of the issue. Yes, I believe that in our case, (a negligible amount of glue, or more precisely starch) increases the friction. But how is this really happening out there in the hole pinblock,? I don't know. In my method, the dry cardboard's glue when heated screwing pin, I think it is not capable of biggest help for the stiffness. But it does not give a negative effect,negative consequences I do not see it
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/02/12 11:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
I doubt that cured CA will have any long term effects. Cured CA is really just a hard plastic similar to acrylic/plexiglass/perspex.

Yes Mark R,i agree with you,i do not know the technical CHARACTERISTICS this miracle glue(CA). If you write "it is composed of acrylic". Then the gluing pin + a wood part , and I think the effect will be badly. Acrylic will reduce friction, like glass
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/02/12 11:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
I liked the articles of Suzan Kline and some of her astute solutions for "junk pianos" .

Is articles of Suzan Kline, which Max would read? Is she works with cardboard as Max?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/03/12 12:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Loren D

Oversize pins can cause more problems if the block is already weak or cracking.

Oversize pins would not work is if pinblock damaged , and there are cracks
Yesterday I tuning a piano, "Ukraine" in 1982. Pins 8 pieces on this piano was replaced with 6.9 to 7.12. (District D-F#3) These pins were very professionally clogged more than 12 years ago. However, from the words of the client, Volodya after a year these pins have pitch off. Volodya with T-bar tuning it's every six months. I expressed my point of view on this matter and asked to read the topic about shim on our forum. He has a good command of German language and realized that in some cases can be used for corrugated shim. I reinstalled the 10 pins about 5:00hour, I hope that with the help of cardboard, it's will be for a long time to work. Volodya Kupitmann expresses its great appreciation to our forum, and especially Loren D, for a discussion of this issue. Now the Forum visited in my home town of Uralsk
Sincerely, maxim_tuner
Posted by: Supply

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/03/12 03:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Is articles of Suzan Kline, which Max would read? Is she works with cardboard as Max?


You should read basic books in your language so that you can learn about the work you are trying to do.
This is a good place to start:



Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/03/12 05:54 AM

Nice to see those very good books translated so widely. The "Forss" is one of the most complete (it is a collection there are 3 volumes I believe).
It is giving more useful methods than the Reblitz, but , as it is also a training course support, the need for a professional helps is still evident.
I believe the books have been made from the methodology of the piano technician course that Forss is driving.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/03/12 06:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
I liked the articles of Suzan Kline and some of her astute solutions for "junk pianos" .

Is articles of Suzan Kline, which Max would read? Is she works with cardboard as Max?


Those where a series of articles in the PTG journal, with very nice sketches and illustrations.? I dont recall which years. Those are available from the PTJ office on CD /DVD. May be the organization could vote to send you a set of those CD's for free in the intention to help you have some readings and information.

I don't know if those articles which are scanned, could be translated easily by translating software. probably most of the text can be recognized by the OCR softwares, but what may be the final translation accuracy (?)
Posted by: pianolive

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/03/12 07:17 AM

Quote//I believe the books have been made from the methodology of the piano technician course that Forss is driving.//Quote

Correct, there used to be a three years full time study to become pianotechnician in Norway and Sweden.
Posted by: pianolive

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/03/12 07:18 AM

Quote//I believe the books have been made from the methodology of the piano technician course that Forss is driving.//Quote

Correct, there used to be a three years full time study to become pianotechnician in Norway and Sweden.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/03/12 08:09 AM

Originally Posted By: pianolive
Quote//I believe the books have been made from the methodology of the piano technician course that Forss is driving.//Quote

Correct, there used to be a three years full time study to become pianotechnician in Norway and Sweden.

One young man from the Baltic states, Latvia in the near future would send me this book in Russian digital .He wrote that this book is appreciated and used piano technicians in the Baltics whole .I shall wait
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/03/12 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Humpty Dumpty was put back together again with vinegar and brown paper, rather than an "Eggspert" wink

It's well, that all people of good will are trying to help me with tips on maintenance and tuning verticals. I am grateful to everyone without exception. I'm trying to be objective, but my clients are ordinary lay people who have a very bad financial situation. They are able to pay only small crumbs for my repairs. Therefore, first was a corrugated wrap under pin. These were only tests that have grown into recovery technology of hole pinblock . More than 10 years, I began to use it. I'm glad it works fine here in Kazakhstan. Now more and more adepts no alone is used in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and other Russian speaking countries. A "maxim_tuner" became a household word on the internet Russian-speaking environment . Meters-technicians from Moscow and St. Petersburg scares this name. Russian beginners tuners also. They do not know who to believe. Or a classic method of hammering on pin or to believe "mentally unhealthy man from Kazakhstan with cardboard in his hand." Of me wrote opponents in the Russian capital. Young wizards do not know what to do a repair hammer pin with a sledgehammer, or oversize pin put cardboard or pour the glue hole of pinblock, bronze shim,or make it's from wood veneer. I really do cares about the opinion of the International Forum on this issue and my image. I ask all to speak "for" and "against". Yours decision need in the whole world. Sincerely,maxim_tuner
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/03/12 09:42 AM

Max, hurry up! if you where living in the US you may yet have setup a small selling market of your special corrugated cardboard. Specially well adapted to piano repair and only availeable in Kahzackstan. you have yet understood that one have to write again and again and insist, then someday he will be considered as well educated professional.
But also if you sell for a high price your work it put you in a better professional range automatically.

It works partly like that in the trade. For numerous reasons. the musician ear is appreciated however...
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/03/12 09:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Max, hurry up! if you where living in the US you may yet have setup a small selling market of your special corrugated cardboard.

Ямщик не гони лошадей..."A horses's driver did not ride horses" words Russian romance
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/03/12 10:00 AM

....
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/04/12 08:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Max, hurry up! if you where living in the US you may yet have setup a small selling market of your special corrugated cardboard.

Dear Kamin ,I'm not going to move now and conquer the United States. I don't impose your ideas repair for anyone. I am very critical attitude towards any comments, but there is no criticism from the technicians. Today, me invited the head of a kindergarten place do corrugated cardboard shims in RF small town Buzuluk about 200 km from my city. She carefully watches my movies and found that only I can restore them piano. For me, this is a great honor to help the children. Tomorrow the car going for me and I'm going to this town . I hope that everything will turn out. God bless us!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 12:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Why not just replace the tuning pin with a size or two larger and be done with it forever? smile


How to replace piano tuning pins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLoa4De6RZs&feature=channel&list=UL
I have found video. I would like to hear an assessment of these actions technicians about replace the pin. I would see to link to the video that use the sand paper, glue, bronze shim and other materials. Man to torque pin when replace it's . Are you to hammer pin?
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 03:05 AM

What have been said is that the carboard was not staying efficient long enough, under normal utilization, meaning with normal tuning. I am unsure you can judge of the efficiency, as you are new to tuning, I am not sure you understand how the pin is locked in the hole. (like an alpinist in a chimney) May be the glue used in your cardboard is giving some friction, the cardboard in itself is too slippery, to me.

Turning the new pin in one have to wait a lot to avoid heat, heat is counterproductive, the metal grows.
Tuning pins are usually hammered (because it is faster, it is turned when one want to be cautious) . A new tuning pin have a new fresh clean thread that provide more friction than the old used pin.

Hammering the new pin is not know as causing problems, it may even provide a new wood surface to the pin (and often the hole is bored/reamed so to install longer pins and to be sure to have some "fresh wood" unfortunately, too thick pins are difficult to tune so there is a limit, and I try to avoid boring whenever possible.

I dont like to change a few tuning pins, changing them all is coherent and sometime done without moving the piano. (indeed a full box of pins is expensive)

Changing the whole strings set is not that long (and wire is not expensive) but the stabilization, massaging wire, having everything back in place, can take some time.

At last changing treble strings (they are the ones that age first) is a good service to be done to professional pianists.


Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 03:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Max, hurry up! if you where living in the US you may yet have setup a small selling market of your special corrugated cardboard.

Dear Kamin ,I'm not going to move now and conquer the United States. I don't impose your ideas repair for anyone. I am very critical attitude towards any comments, but there is no criticism from the technicians. Today, me invited the head of a kindergarten place do corrugated cardboard shims in RF small town Buzuluk about 200 km from my city. She carefully watches my movies and found that only I can restore them piano. For me, this is a great honor to help the children. Tomorrow the car going for me and I'm going to this town . I hope that everything will turn out. God bless us!


I am horrified ! you show corrugated paper shim to young child in Kindergarden ?

What will they think when they will be growing ?

See those are similar marketing practices as used in the USA, you should try to sell there, you have the good basic instinct for that wink smile
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 04:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
What have been said is that the carboard was not staying efficient long enough, under normal utilization, meaning with normal tuning. I am unsure you can judge of the efficiency, as you are new to tuning, I am not sure you understand how the pin is locked in the hole. (like an alpinist in a chimney) May be the glue used in your cardboard is giving some friction, the cardboard in itself is too slippery, to me.

Turning the new pin in one have to wait a lot to avoid heat, heat is counterproductive, the metal grows.
Tuning pins are usually hammered (because it is faster, it is turned when one want to be cautious) . A new tuning pin have a new fresh clean thread that provide more friction than the old used pin.

Hammering the new pin is not know as causing problems, it may even provide a new wood surface to the pin (and often the hole is bored/reamed so to install longer pins and to be sure to have some "fresh wood" unfortunately, too thick pins are difficult to tune so there is a limit, and I try to avoid boring whenever possible.

I dont like to change a few tuning pins, changing them all is coherent and sometime done without moving the piano. (indeed a full box of pins is expensive)

Changing the whole strings set is not that long (and wire is not expensive) but the stabilization, massaging wire, having everything back in place, can take some time.

At last changing treble strings (they are the ones that age first) is a good service to be done to professional pianists.



Let me disagree with you,Kamin in the following points:
1 Who is proclaimed that shim corrugated board is bad? Where are the facts, experiments and research on this issue? In the Internet no also the videos about it except my own. Although it is not modest, but alas no.
2 "Too slick cardboard". It is not out of place, I think. My method, I have repeatedly said about this is not working whole cardboard. But it's destroyed in the process of screwing microparticles this cardboard creates full a friction. Which provide the necessary friction when pin replace
3 If I am a newbie, how to explain the functionality of any of hundreds of pianos. In which I have successfully used the cardboard. I must to screws replay pin about 30-40 every week . I'm like no other I have a full understanding as to is the friction between the pins-shim-pinblock
Regards, maxim_tuner
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 04:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Max, hurry up! if you where living in the US you may yet have setup a small selling market of your special corrugated cardboard.

Dear Kamin ,I'm not going to move now and conquer the United States. I don't impose your ideas repair for anyone. I am very critical attitude towards any comments, but there is no criticism from the technicians. Today, me invited the head of a kindergarten place do corrugated cardboard shims in RF small town Buzuluk about 200 km from my city. She carefully watches my movies and found that only I can restore them piano. For me, this is a great honor to help the children. Tomorrow the car going for me and I'm going to this town . I hope that everything will turn out. God bless us!


I am horrified ! you show corrugated paper shim to young child in Kindergarden ?

What will they think when they will be growing ?


The children sang several songs at parting. I would not want to know what they understood or not during the installation of shims. For me, and art director this children garten is not so important how it works. The main thing is that the "Swallow" ( Ласточка) once again began to sing (began to play). I shall and hope think to many time. In GOD we trust
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 04:49 AM

See, you dont want to listen, Max . I dont care in the end if it works for you, but the tunings you provide as samples are not convincing , nor the way you manipulate the hammers and tuning pins, that is why I am not sure you are aware of what we expect to keep a tuning pin in position at normal tuning precision level.

You are indeed like no other and need to progress as anyone, since you have mastered the sensations and the listening , so to tune from note 1 to note 88 with a decent result.

So you see it suffice to affirm strong enough and to repeat on public media that you are a good professional , for the thing to get some reality after some time.

We are all proud of our precedent learning and experiences but mastering that kind of job is a totally different thing that what can be seen on the small window of youtube videos (hopefully, or I would not have customers)

Best wishes
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 04:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Max, hurry up! if you where living in the US you may yet have setup a small selling market of your special corrugated cardboard.

Dear Kamin ,I'm not going to move now and conquer the United States. I don't impose your ideas repair for anyone. I am very critical attitude towards any comments, but there is no criticism from the technicians. Today, me invited the head of a kindergarten place do corrugated cardboard shims in RF small town Buzuluk about 200 km from my city. She carefully watches my movies and found that only I can restore them piano. For me, this is a great honor to help the children. Tomorrow the car going for me and I'm going to this town . I hope that everything will turn out. God bless us!


I am horrified ! you show corrugated paper shim to young child in Kindergarden ?

What will they think when they will be growing ?


The children sang several songs at parting. I would not want to know what they understood or not during the installation of shims. For me, and art director this children garten is not so important how it works. The main thing is that the "Swallow" ( Ласточка) once again began to sing (began to play). I shall and hope think to many time. In GOD we trust


I was joking ! I dont wake up in nightmares in the middle of the night because of you Maxim wink

It is nice to try to help , I respect that part of the job you do.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 05:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin


So you see it suffice to affirm strong enough and to repeat on public media that you are a good professional , for the thing to get some reality after some time.

I no can agree with you Kamin, write. Because as the subject of our conversation should not be restricted, that Max is not able tuning a piano. Here and now to discuss only one issue. Would the installation of corrugated shim under pin to provide the necessary friction or not? Is no third
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 05:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Max, hurry up! if you where living in the US you may yet have setup a small selling market of your special corrugated cardboard.

Dear Kamin ,I'm not going to move now and conquer the United States. I don't impose your ideas repair for anyone. I am very critical attitude towards any comments, but there is no criticism from the technicians. Today, me invited the head of a kindergarten place do corrugated cardboard shims in RF small town Buzuluk about 200 km from my city. She carefully watches my movies and found that only I can restore them piano. For me, this is a great honor to help the children. Tomorrow the car going for me and I'm going to this town . I hope that everything will turn out. God bless us!


I am horrified ! you show corrugated paper shim to young child in Kindergarden ?

What will they think when they will be growing ?


The children sang several songs at parting. I would not want to know what they understood or not during the installation of shims. For me, and art director this children garten is not so important how it works. The main thing is that the "Swallow" ( Ласточка) once again began to sing (began to play). I shall and hope think to many time. In GOD we trust

It is nice to try to help , I respect that part of the job you do.

thanks
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 07:37 AM

Cardboard = paper = wood fiber. I see no reason why a cardboard shim is any worse than any other shim, and no one has really demonstrated why it would be.

As I said earlier, once the pin is back in place, it's only being turned millimeters during normal tuning. Even as the cardboard disintegrates, it's cellulose/wood fiber/wood pulp going into the minute crevices and areas between the pin and the block.

Not saying that in the end this will prove to be a viable method. Just saying that for my reasoning, no one has disproven it yet or given me a solid reason why this method doesn't work.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 09:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Loren D
Cardboard = paper = wood fiber. I see no reason why a cardboard shim is any worse than any other shim, and no one has really demonstrated why it would be.

As I said earlier, once the pin is back in place, it's only being turned millimeters during normal tuning. Even as the cardboard disintegrates, it's cellulose/wood fiber/wood pulp going into the minute crevices and areas between the pin and the block.

Not saying that in the end this will prove to be a viable method. Just saying that for my reasoning, no one has disproven it yet or given me a solid reason why this method doesn't work.

I express gratitude Loren D what as you have meticulously feel technic and practic side of problem " I don't see a reason to deny the positive side of the cardboard shim". I do not know how well to work shim made of other materials, because of I limited material. I do not have the resources and time for such experiments. My typical day consists of routine work. I have to work hard to earn some money for my family, so we did not die of starvation. However, I am very sad, if I can not bring back to life yet another worn out vertical. Recently time, I must replace many pins before me begin the tuning process. I am very tired of this and so my temperament are far from perfect. However, I still feel the strength to fight. I live only delight of customers, piano which condemned and sentenced to death . I give them one chance to play the piano if can renovation their verticals . This does not mean that the whole world should adopt my method. Any truth only works when there is an alternative and the test to find a new one. I think and hope its the only viable method that helps ordinary lay people do not lose their vertical in the former Soviet Union. Previously, you have correctly said the essence of that cardboard pin is not harmful to the entire pinblock our piano. That is, we act like a doctor with his main postulate of "Do no harm." So,minimum material resources for this method it is basic. I would be formulated as follows: "with minimal threat to the piano is the cheapest method of restoring additional tight pin into pinblock." A year ago I could hardly understood what people write here on this forum . Now more and more I try without translate of machine. I am grateful to the participants of our forum
Posted by: Roy Rodgers

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 09:18 AM

I have an old upright that has several loose pins. Not really worth restoring. But might for grins a giggles use Maxs cardboard shim method just to satisfy my own curiosity.

I'll give it a few tunings over the next few months and just see what happens.

Can't hurt this old piano, and it is not going to be rebuilt. All it will take is a bit of time.

Got to be better than those split metal shims.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 09:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Roy Rodgers
I have an old upright that has several loose pins. Not really worth restoring. But might for grins a giggles use Maxs cardboard shim method just to satisfy my own curiosity.

I'll give it a few tunings over the next few months and just see what happens.

Can't hurt this old piano, and it is not going to be rebuilt. All it will take is a bit of time.

Got to be better than those split metal shims.



Roy, please do! And please report back. I for one am curious. I'd like to see a controlled test on whether or not this can work. I know there's a tendency to immediately discount the method, but CA glue for tuning pins was also considered radical a few years ago.
Posted by: Ed Foote

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 10:17 AM

[quote=Roy Rodgers]I have an old upright that has several loose pins. Not really worth restoring. But might for grins a giggles use Maxs cardboard shim method just to satisfy my own curiosity.
I'll give it a few tunings over the next few months and just see what happens.
Can't hurt this old piano, and it is not going to be rebuilt. All it will take is a bit of time.<<

Greetings,
While you are at it, shave off, with a plane, a couple of shavings from a piece of hardwood like ash, or maple, or maybe oak. They should be about .008" thick, and maybe 3/8" wide. Try those on similar pins to the cardboard, and let us know which works best.
Regards,
Posted by: Roy Rodgers

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 10:32 AM

Hadn't thought of that Ed, but I can do that. There are enough loose pins on this old beast to test a lot of ideas.

It can't be any worse than it is.

I'm nursing a brown recluse bite on my thigh, so off my feet for a few days. But I'll see if I can take some before and after video of the pins and mark what I did to each.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 10:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
[quote=Roy Rodgers]I have an old upright that has several loose pins. Not really worth restoring. But might for grins a giggles use Maxs cardboard shim method just to satisfy my own curiosity.
Try those on similar pins to the cardboard, and let us know which works best.

Friends, it would be nice to adopt an see a comparative analysis of lot way to decide this problem. What a way to be more preferable? We are to waiting for Roy's tests
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 10:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Roy Rodgers


I'm nursing a brown recluse bite on my thigh, so off my feet for a few days.

We look forward to Your speedy recovery. So help You God!
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 05:51 PM

I tried but not on a pinblock, in a block of soft wood and the carboard seem to provide a grip sensation, but it seem to me that the carboard have turned to powder in the hole (I have seen powder once the pin is taken out) May be the glue is helping to raise the friction, as it cannot be the thickness of the cardboard that provided it in that case.

It may be better than to use abrasive. In that very soft wood it worked better than the brass shims, that is why I believe it have to do with the material.

I will try to do more tests with a wrench & measuring torque , in new holes and in a new piece of block. I will compare with the poplar shims I have (I was told to use hard wood as oak, but our veneer those days is not as good as it was when I learned; It is thinner and sliced; old veener can be took of from old boards.
Long time I did not do that, but I recall sometime the pins where really difficult to turn with the veener.

What bothers me is not that you are pleased with your method, but you did not want to try others that are accessible (it may not be difficult to find some veeners or chips of hard wood)






Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/07/12 09:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Kamin

I will try to do more tests with a wrench & measuring torque , in new holes and in a new piece of block. I will compare with the poplar shims I have (I was told to use hard wood as oak, but our veneer those days is not as good as it was when I learned; It is thinner and sliced; old veener can be took of from old boards.
Long time I did not do that, but I recall sometime the pins where really difficult to turn with the veener.



Dear Kamin, I'm really glad and honor for me, what do You so much and write about it properly. If You will do it, then regardless as result I'll be grateful to you for your experiments. Corrugated or poplar? What of better? Looking forward to your acts and your test verdict. To be or not to be ..
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 09:59 AM

Roy,

Unfortunately I can't find it now, but I remember that a few months ago, an experienced technician posted on this forum that when he was training (I think in the 1980s), at his school they did exactly such an experiment comparing all the various repairs for loose tuning pins. (I think it included oversize pin, metal shim, wood veneer shim, sandpaper, cardboard and perhaps some others.)

I do remember what he wrote about the result: initially, all the repairs provided adequate grip. But they did not last equally long. The cardboard repair was the first one to fail.

Perhaps the technician who posted that can point us to the post. I think it was in one of Max's previous threads.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 10:00 AM

One more plus of shim corrugated cardboard
In my daily practice, often have to install it's in the (C#3-F#3) малая октава. Pins in this place are very close to each other. Destroyed by the hole of pinblock can not fix if we shall hammering oversize pin to hammer. If to repair hammering on pin, it loses his integrity. Because the wooden wall of the hole into pinblock and to bush of increasing pressure from the pin here . If we shall hammer repairs or shim pin is, it inevitably increases the burden on the already weakened the wooden wall , and thus will inevitably suffer, located adjacent the nearby hole of pinblock and it's bush. Conclusion: Use only the method of screwing in the area (C#3-F#3), use a shim or oversize pin. Don't hammer here! Only to screw a shim corrugated cardboard
Posted by: Ed Foote

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 10:03 AM

[quote=Mark R.] a few months ago, an experienced technician posted on this forum that when he was training (I think in the 1980s), at his school they did exactly such an experiment comparing all the various repairs for loose tuning pins. (I think it included oversize pin, metal shim, wood veneer shim, sandpaper, cardboard and perhaps some others.)
he wrote about the result: initially, all the repairs provided adequate grip. But they did not last equally long. The cardboard repair was the first one to fail.

Greetings,
That was me. It was at the North Bennett Street School. We were expected to know how all approaches worked. Everything from sandpaper shims to Garfield's Pinblock Restorer!
The cardboard got soft quicker than anything.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 10:14 AM

I guess so too, but the hypothesis could be that the glue within the cardboard is changing the effect, acting as a resin. Did you use cardboard or corrugated in that testing ?

Standard cardboard cannot do much , if it happens that the glue contained in the corrugated cardboard add something may be some added product could be used so to fix more the powder or to thicken where necessary.

Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 10:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Roy,

Unfortunately I can't find it now, but I remember that a few months ago, an experienced technician posted on this forum that when he was training (I think in the 1980s), at his school they did exactly such an experiment comparing all the various repairs for loose tuning pins. (I think it included oversize pin, metal shim, wood veneer shim, sandpaper, cardboard and perhaps some others.)

I do remember what he wrote about the result: initially, all the repairs provided adequate grip. But they did not last equally long. The cardboard repair was the first one to fail.

Perhaps the technician who posted that can point us to the post. I think it was in one of Max's previous threads.

Dear Mark R, I very well remember the remark. But I have to say and clarify the there to it was spoken about the classical shim. I already wrote that my shim have are two components . First part is destroyed as result screwing pin and second part it's product cellulose microparticles separated from basic body. It to make filling the cracks in the oval-destroy hole of pinblock
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 10:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
[quote=Mark R.] a few months ago, an experienced technician posted on this forum that when he was training (I think in the 1980s), at his school they did exactly such an experiment comparing all the various repairs for loose tuning pins. (I think it included oversize pin, metal shim, wood veneer shim, sandpaper, cardboard and perhaps some others.)
he wrote about the result: initially, all the repairs provided adequate grip. But they did not last equally long. The cardboard repair was the first one to fail.

Greetings,
That was me. It was at the North Bennett Street School. We were expected to know how all approaches worked. Everything from sandpaper shims to Garfield's Pinblock Restorer!
The cardboard got soft quicker than anything.

Ed Foote,If I understand you correctly cardboard has been recognized as a result of these experiments is not the worst of other materials
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 12:00 PM

No Max it was the one that failed the most rapidly (when the tuning pin was worked after the experiment).
But we have no precision about the kind of carboard used.
Posted by: Roy Rodgers

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 12:24 PM

Interesting thread so far.

I hope next week to be back in the shop. (Brown recluse bites aren't very nice).

I have some work to catch up after being down a bit, but should be some time to play around.

I have tried the sand paper repair.

I was young and dumb and tried the metal split shims. (Still have a ton of those left).

So far other than replacing the pin block I have had the best results with CA glue.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 10:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
But we have no precision about the kind of carboard used.

I agree with You Kamin, we do not know a type of the cardboard and its thickness. Is the technology, which they did used in 1980? Did they hammered or screwed a pin?
This we can only hear from Ed Forte
Posted by: Ed Foote

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 10:28 PM

Greetings,
All pins were hammered. A basic tenet of the stringing we learned was the less rotation a pin endures, the greater its useful life. When I repair a string, I need 1/2 turn out and back, to leave the new wire at pitch. I see where techs have turned the pin out and then back in in winding the coil. These pins are always looser than their neighbors.

I ascribe this to lack of technique. Some techs just don't care, and nothing can be done about them. Some simply don't know how to repair strings very well, and every break is fraught with peril. Splicing and replacing strings takes all of an hour to master, at most. Beginners would do well to just do it over and over until it is a smooth, easy bit of piano technology. Practice with copper wire, see where the wire bends and where it kinks. In school, Eddie Coglan,who was one of the last quality control guys at Mason & Hamilin, (I think) mentioned "wire sense" as a skill that comes from handling it. Repairing a string once a month is not going to create a fluidity to the work. Practice till perfect in the shop, and be armed against a rather persistent and pervasive irritant.

Yes, a splice can be used on A1, and there is no need to scratch the paint if one thinks through the process before beginning, and knows what to look for. Knowing where the curve wants to go, how to move it around without bending it, how to tie bends, (they really aren't "knots"), and loops. It all comes from repetitive use. Standing on the stage is no time to begin trying to figure out how it goes.

I was a better stringer after every restringing I did. Only problem now is remembering what I learned the last time.
Regards,
Posted by: That Guy

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 10:34 PM

Quote:
So far other than replacing the pin block I have had the best results with CA glue.


Yes, CA glue! I use it all the time. Quick and effective.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 11:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Greetings,
All pins were hammered. A basic tenet of the stringing we learned was the less rotation a pin endures, the greater its useful life. When I repair a string, I need 1/2 turn out and back, to leave the new wire at pitch.

Thank Ed Foote, if you wrote, they were scored it's. I now haven't ask question as to why the cardboard in 1980 as shown a result of "a bad shim" in contrast to other materials. When I was young, I also scored a pin begins set under it cardboard corrugated shim. The result was negative. You have not answered what had used type of cardboard in 80 year. If the pin to hammer, then the effect will be equal to 0(zero) or even worse than it was, because:
1 Shim it is displaced into the hole and shrank (cringes)
2 pin in the hole will be located at offset
3 cardboard pin collapses and simply slips on it until the end of the hole
4 The separated particles of paper from the basic shim don't evenly accumulates and stick on the walls of hole pinblock. As a result this operation (pin-shim-pinblock), the pressure did not significantly increase
Posted by: accordeur

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 11:41 PM

Geez Max, just get some CA. Even where you live, it should be possible. You have an internet connection. Come on.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 11:44 PM

Originally Posted By: That Guy
Quote:
So far other than replacing the pin block I have had the best results with CA glue.

Quick and effective.

If fast it always qualitatively? My method to replace a (1) pin sometimes I spent more than an half hour. The whole procedure is tedious and requires heavy physical force during the screwing pin into block. However,I have thank this method ,because the native pin find "new life" with the increased friction
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 11:51 PM

Originally Posted By: accordeur
Geez Max, just get some CA. Even where you live, it should be possible. You have an internet connection. Come on.

Excuse me accordeur, but I do need the miraculous adhesives that can help in problem lost pins. The method of the premises of any glue in the hole of pinblock, I think it is wrong and harmful to any vertical
Posted by: accordeur

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/08/12 11:54 PM

You obviously have not tried CA. It is quite miraculous compared to other methods.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/09/12 12:17 AM

Originally Posted By: accordeur
You obviously have not tried CA. It is quite miraculous compared to other methods.

accordeur,I have not tried use CA. However, not all participants in the forum so categorical about the effectiveness of its use for solving this problem. Earlier it was said that the composition of the adhesive have any % acrylic. I'm sure that as a result of after drying acrylic the friction will be more. Synthetic mix of glass don't adds significantly friction. However, this is just my guess. If CA is well recommended and really works, then you need to apply this method
Posted by: accordeur

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/09/12 12:24 AM

I have saved many pianos, now played by children and families. Those pianos, before CA treatment, I would of sent to the dump.

You can guess all you like, just try it, you will see.

Almost everyone on this forum has been trying to help you, you should be more appreciative and open to things, it will help your bottom line.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/09/12 12:51 AM

Originally Posted By: accordeur
I have saved many pianos, now played by children and families. Those pianos, before CA treatment, I would of sent to the dump.

You can guess all you like, just try it, you will see.

Almost everyone on this forum has been trying to help you, you should be more appreciative and open to things, it will help your bottom line.

I do not need additional revenue. I live and work in a country where the income does not depends the quality of the execution of the order, unfortunately. Ingratitude to the participants in the forum from me? It's you wrong formulated. I accept useful information and use in my work. However, the CA glue, and its use is not for me.
"Сократ мне брат, но истина дороже"
Posted by: accordeur

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/09/12 01:00 AM

You don't need additional revenue? To buy a product that will allow you to be more efficient and professional. You make more money and your customer is satisfied? Less time and labour for a procedure that is better? Geez. Hello? Wake up!

I'm sorry, but you get on my nerves,. I thought at first that you were willing to learn more, now you seem like the guy whose methods are invariably the best.

All the best to you.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/09/12 08:47 AM

http://www.forumklassika.ru/showthread.php?t=86529&page=21
On the Russian forum "Classic" piano technicians I found video Maxim-technician from Argentina. He also uses cardboard. He wrote that uses the "German cardboard" of 0.5 mm. This is cardboard very difficult to find and buy in Argentina now. I'm having doubts about good condition a cardboard after hammering . Because he uses a hammer. Which would not be tight and stiff cardboard, it will be whole destroyed at the time of hammering than increasing the friction between the pins and wood.
cardboard+pin+ a hammer =bad?
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/09/12 09:26 AM

That fact that individual competence is not as well recognized I have seen, but it is changing, so if you stick with older ways of thinking there will be youger people who will act differntly.

I noticed that in Poland in fact, where in the shops the shop owners often make no effort to smile or be polite with their customer (no say "thankyou" for example) .
The same in the street if you ask your road, the people will give to you gently but never expect you to thank them.

I asked why and it was explained top me those where habits from the communist era, wher you did gain the same if you where working well or not, what counted is that the "act" was done.

That makes for a little rude society, but see, in Poland the things have moved a lot and they knew how to sell their knowledge soon -woodworking for instance and others I dont really know, they also have food which have grown on fields which where not weakened by abuse of chemicals, so they can sell now natural products and meat - (coming with a plane you can see immediately the frontier between Germany and Poland, Poland is full of little parcels of many colours while in Germany the fields are giants with the same color everywhere...

There are hidden advantages, it may be difficult to look for them, but being recognized as competent and knowing methods to work faster or to have longer lasting results is usually rewarding, whatever the social situation is.

Turning the pin is very long as heat develops immediately, also, as said Ed Foote, hammering the pin may be less damaging, indeed with cardboard you may be obliged to leave the carboard at the external of the hole, as it is done with wood shims.

About the wood, the oily woods have to be avoided (as some exotic species) Too thick/hard wood make sit difficult to turn the pin.

I will try the CA thing but I understand it as a method to provide a "playeable" instrument in countries that are suffering from recession, with people unable to pay for a few days repair or to buy a new instrument, as it is the case in most countries today .

I would accept the idea if I where not used to change the strings set on old and less old pianos, I am really wondering what can be done with new pins on a CA treated block..

In repairs of old pianos, the relation between the cost of the repairs and the commercial value of the instrument is rarely at the advantage of the instrument, but the pleasure to play a piano that have a nice acoustical part is real (even if that part is a little tired).
Posted by: molehill

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/09/12 06:52 PM

“In repairs of old pianos, the relation between the cost of the repairs and the commercial value of the instrument is rarely at the advantage of the instrument, but the pleasure to play a piano that have a nice acoustical part is real (even if that part is a little tired).”

Not regular poster, usually just read. But totally drawn to this thread. Read every word. Came here today for info on several major problems with my long searched for 1918 Chickering Ampico 5’8” grand due to damage caused by an unscrupulous tuner/tech.

THANK YOU! To Kamin for above comment, Loren D. for posting this in first place, looking forward to trial test results Roy Rogers and best wishes for speedy recovery, and accordeur for finally telling Maximillyan what I would’ve pages ago. No offense Max, but you should be a bit more open to wise suggestions of others. That’s why I’m here! Over years given excellent advice and thanked those who graciously/genuinely helped me.

Yes Kamin, 3 yrs ago when first got my Chickering it WAS original and sounded wonderfully somber. My teacher remarked it sounded Russian, loved it. Ampico player was restored 20(?) yrs ago and needed again but piano WAS in excellent condition for age. Bass strings a bit tubby but everyone playing could not pull themselves away.

Shortened but still such long story! (to understand). Not over yet but some happy parts:

After asking 3 player friends, made eruptible mistake of befriending self-proclaimed expert tuner/tech with diminished mental ability and allowed him to work on past 2 1/2 yrs. I scheduled tunings with fellow piano classmates of lesser means, closed my dollhouse shop of 16 yrs several times, sat next to him assisting in repairs, fed him, did his laundry, groomed his dog, cut his hair, bought him things on eBay, gave him gifts, and always paid full price for work to my piano. Also got him into jointly-owned 3 local Music Academies where I take lessons.

Repaid me by quoting prices then half-again or doubling them on my friends, owing me money, killing one of my dogs (almost the other) and my Chickering!

Started last June, I refused despite his repeated begging, crying, screaming to close up a 4th day to drive him 4hr trip each way to buy Steck Duo-Art upright in Toledo. Went himself but later took out his extreme anger on my action so bad took me until Sept to finally get enough nerve to regulate myself, but still isn’t right.

Like a fool let him return in Oct, he broke F1, left it missing until Jan when he replaced it with new string, larger pin, hammered it down to less an 1/8“ from harp surface, and also the other 8 below it, with a regular nail hammer and without removing action to support pin block. Caught him too late as he was finishing. Said he could have used CA as I suggested and have as Quick Grip that I use on dollhouse furniture repair, but he replied, “I don’t like it”. Still not able to bring myself to pull action to check if pin block is splintered.

Know now he’s extremely clever scam artist, total liar, and all this was done to sabotage/force me into sending it to TN for him to “restore” but most likely add to his own collection, never to see it again. Fortunately, I didn’t have the funds and told him several times but it didn’t stop him.

Despite my many “NO, I don’t have time!” he appeared at our door March 15 & 17. Found out later he knowingly brought his ill dog with Canine Influenza that not only killed my dear sweet 11 yr old Yorkie Maggie March 30 but also left my16 yr old Yorkie Abby with severe dementia.

Now he’s blaming ME for his questionable liver damage due to not monitoring his Type-1 Diabetes and threatening to kill me. Confirmed by a few he is dangerous enough and threat is real. My husband travels often on business.

Good thing just happened to leave his IN friend’s phone number who said wished known my last name yrs ago to call me to warn. Others had but I thought just about not paying for eBay items.

Silver lining! New IN friend is going to help me finally fulfill my childhood dream to become a tuner/tech. Also going to examine my piano, my friends’ and the Academies’ to see what damage. Will let you know when I do. I want to repay them for unleashing this monster by tuning/repairing for them. Just ordered a used Sanderson Accu-Tuner IV from Baldassin Pianoworks (could not be nicer!) and plan to study for PTG.

So any suggestions/advice will be whole-heartedly appreciated to help me heal and move on. THANK YOU TO ALL IN ADVANCE!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 05:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin

Turning the pin is very long as heat develops immediately, also, as said Ed Foote, hammering the pin may be less damaging, indeed with cardboard you may be obliged to leave the carboard at the external of the hole, as it is done with wood shims.

1 Strongly disagree with you Kamin, about that in high-speed hammering mode, we are more humanely act with respect to the vertical, and pinblock . A piano pin can be conditionally as a screw, but not a nail. Throughout the world screws is screwing. In order to avoid excessive temperature, no screw up, need make slowly it several times.
2 Re setting the pin with shim if we shall score a pin it necessarily lead to the destruction of a wood in the holes adjacent pinblock. This I say to you, as a practitioner. If we work with a hammer restore a pin, and a few strokes as a result of losing nearby pins . There is a Russian proverb: "We One to cure, another We to cripple" (Одно лечим, другое калечим)
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 06:19 AM

Originally Posted By: molehill

THANK YOU! To Kamin for above comment, Loren D. for posting this in first place, looking forward to trial test results Roy Rogers and best wishes for speedy recovery, and accordeur for finally telling Maximillyan what I would’ve pages ago. No offense Max, but you should be a bit more open to wise suggestions of others. That’s why I’m here! Over years given excellent advice and thanked those who graciously/genuinely helped me.

Yes Kamin, 3 yrs ago when first got my Chickering it WAS original and sounded wonderfully somber. My teacher remarked it sounded Russian, loved it. Ampico player was restored 20(?) yrs ago and needed again but piano WAS in excellent condition for age. Bass strings a bit tubby but everyone playing could not pull themselves away.

Thank you dear lady from a distant US Ohio,molehill. Write to all and we will happy to honor. I am very bad speaks English and understand your American essay quite bad , but I'm glad that our art forum you help . I always listen to their (technicians) advice and comments. And never at anyone offended. Such is my nature. accordeur my brother and I listen to it as well, but what we sometimes do not agree. I think that the dreams come true, even quite fantastic. I hope you learn to tune your piano. I'm already 20 years old, but to no avail. "Hope dies last." (Надежда умирает последней)
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 07:24 AM

While using cardboard, veneer, sandpaper or any other type of substance may enable a loose wrestpin to grip with enough firmness to hold, it can only ever be thought of as a quick cheap fix! It appears that Max is heck bent on using this forum to promote his own personal methods, and not to learn and take advice from the vast pool professionals who try to coach him.

He disagrees with hammering in wrestpins, saying that it causes damage ...... it doesn't cause damage .... it may be the last straw for surrounding wrestpins that are at the point of giving up the ghost. In which case they too need seeing to !

The removal of wrestpins generates heat .... turning them out slowly by hand can often leave them so hot that they can't be handled .... However, if removed quickly, using a power drill, they are nowhere near as hot, and because the process is so rapid, the plank suffers less heat damage.

If using cardboard is his only method (because of availability of materials and costs), then slowly screwing in the wrestpin ... which is now very much tighter, will generate a great deal of heat that can only be a bad thing for an already "soft" plank. Hammering in pins is by far the best practice of stringing .... it's quick ... and more to the point ... it causes MUCH LESS heat and potential damage to the plank.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 07:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
While using cardboard, veneer, sandpaper or any other type of substance may enable a loose wrestpin to grip with enough firmness to hold, it can only ever be thought of as a quick cheap fix!


True, but when you get down to it, if the block is bad, the block is bad. Anything short of a new block is a band-aid that will buy time, not a permanent fix.

I think there is merit to the argument that an already stressed, dry, cracking block can be made worse by hammering. At the very least, it's going to jar other pins out of tune also, if those pins are going.

Yes, turning pins in instead of driving them tends to oval/enlarge the hole, but we're talking a block that already needs replaced.

If the customer is ready for a rebuild, that's the way to go. But if we're looking at something to give it a bit more time until the rebuild, I still say a shim is a shim is a shim.
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 07:50 AM

Loren :

Too many times have I heard "the pin block is bad and need replacing" ... Yes agreed if the plank is cracked or split ... but in my experience I find that if a plank is that bad, then it's either do the job of replacing or do nothing. A split plank just gets bigger splits the more you try to shim.

In the event that time and dryness has merely shrunk the plank, It is not necessary to replace it. I have done o/s wrestpin replacements (both using the old strings and renewing) for decades, and not one single job has ever failed yet.

These examples of Max with cardboard don't indicate a collapsed, or split plank .... they seem perfectly capable of being servicable without being renewed.
Posted by: Roy Rodgers

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 08:01 AM

I may be totally out in right field with this, but it seems to me that if you use the cardboard as Max suggest, then perhaps a little heat would be a good thing.

Wouldn't the heat generated help any glue in the cardboard soften and then as it cools help tighten the pin? I guess that would depend on the glue that was used in the cardboard.

May not work as well as the ca glue or new pins, but in this case would a little heat really be a bad thing?
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 08:15 AM

Just like a tight screw or let off adjuster .... if you heat it, it will expand in the hole, and when allowed to cool down, will be able to be removed.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 08:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Loren :

Too many times have I heard "the pin block is bad and need replacing" ... Yes agreed if the plank is cracked or split ... but in my experience I find that if a plank is that bad, then it's either do the job of replacing or do nothing. A split plank just gets bigger splits the more you try to shim.

In the event that time and dryness has merely shrunk the plank, It is not necessary to replace it. I have done o/s wrestpin replacements (both using the old strings and renewing) for decades, and not one single job has ever failed yet.

These examples of Max with cardboard don't indicate a collapsed, or split plank .... they seem perfectly capable of being servicable without being renewed.


So...if a customer can't afford the rebuild and the kid is taking lessons, and they just need to save up for another year, you just say sorry and leave?

I'm putting the band-aid on, and letting them know (usually in writing) that the piano needs major work and that, on mutual agreement, a stop gap measure was taken that's not permanent.

I've followed tech who take the approach of "all or nothing." I benefit by getting "some," the owner benefits by getting time, and I've been the tech from that point on. And yes, many now have new or better pianos. Now, that band-aid is not always possible. Yes, I've condemned pianos and just told the customer that it's no use. In that case it would be irresponsible to charge the customer for a losing battle.

But I've gotten years out of pianos that were pronounced "dead."

Quote:
A split plank just gets bigger splits the more you try to shim.


Well, I guess that's one benefit of corrugated cardboard. It won't make a crack bigger like a wooden or metal shim (or a larger pin) will. smile
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 09:39 AM

My points were not that of "using a sticking plaster" ... they were :

1. Too many assume that a plank needs replacing when in fact a much smaller repair of fitting o/s wrestpins would suffice.

2. The more heat induced into a wrestpin is likely to make the situation worse.

I too subscribe to doing my level best where it come to helping those who have little funds, but need an instrument that is serviceable.

If some of you prefer to advocate the use of cardboard, so be it wink Max may be in a situation where he has no choice, however, I am becoming more and more confused by the views of others not in his situation that consider his methods not only acceptable but openly to be encouraged.

Oh. and cardboard is just as likely to open up splits .... in a plank that is split wink
Posted by: Roy Rodgers

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 09:49 AM


Most times when you have to heat a fastener to move it or remove it it is due to corrosion. The heat helps loosen the corrosion in the threads because it does expand the metal. But this expansion on such small parts would be hard to measure I would think.

I would also think you would have to heat a tuning pin pretty significantly to have any measurable expansion issues with it. Likely more heat than would be generated by hand turning the pin into the block.

But since I am not a scientist I may be all wet with my thoughts.

My experience with stuck fasteners comes from having done automotive repair work. But with this type work many times you have to use a torch to heat the fastener enough to move it.

I'm not saying the card board fix is the best, or even that it may last very long, but that it may be usable in certain situations. Especially in places that may not have the advantages we have for parts and glues.

And perhaps the little heat generated turning the pin in might be an advantage IF it has any effect on the glue used in making the card board. And I'm not sure it would.

There is much I am still learning so I may just be flapping my fingers in the wind. I've been wrong before, and will be again. That's why I enjoy coming here. I get to learn.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 10:03 AM

Hi Johnkie,

The fact is that on historical instruments the original pins have to be kept usually (I mean really old ones).

If the trick with cardboard works because of some resin or something which is added to the cardboard, this could be a possibility to experiment, for instance some kind of resin could be used as it is done to repair woods .

The main drawback is that screwing a pin is really very long, and also, due to the material turning into dust immediately, why not simply use a mix of some wood sealer with some resin in the hole.

ON a split block, plugs can avoid the new pinblock job, I also suppose (did not do it) that epoxy could repair the structure.

Now lets consider an old piano of some quality (good brand, some musical interest) , no money to pay for a box of pins a few meters of wire, new bass strings and the job of dismounting, mounting the new strings (plus all the extra that come with that job usually) .

If the instrument have some interest I would not want to use a process that oblige to change the block later.

I recognized that I had some friction (in a blok of pine wood) with that cardboard insert. That does not mean it will stay put in time, but at last it explained to me way Maxims was so entitled in his process. Then as I tend to be honest on those matters I acknowledged that. But whenever I have a little more time I will do real tests with torque/meter, and manipulations.
The cardboard once turned to dust may do like the wood shims and begin to be inefficient after some time.












Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 01:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Loren D
[quote=Johnkie]
Quote:
A split plank just gets bigger splits the more you try to shim.


Well, I guess that's one benefit of corrugated cardboard. It won't make a crack bigger like a wooden or metal shim (or a larger pin) will. smile

Your Loren D, words in the full sense is gold. It's elementary physics. Corrugated cardboard is harmless as shim made is soft material. When we screw pin back in pinblock occurs touch two bodies. What of them in this battle will win . Corrugated cardboard shim? Shim to decay on particles under pressure pin and will give new life to pinblock. That is, if we do not achieve 100% of the effect hardness of pin, we as doctors says: "do no harm" and certainly it's could not enlarge woody hole of pinblock and the bush.
Posted by: accordeur

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 01:31 PM

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7172

They ship to Kazakhstan.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 01:37 PM


There are problems with shipping to this region. I shipped a box full of books that made it all the way to Max labelled as books.

Pianolive sent tools that made it all the way.

I sent 3 DVD’s and they disappeared…..he never got them.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 01:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Roy Rodgers


I'm not saying the card board fix is the best, or even that it may last very long, but that it may be usable in certain situations. Especially in places that may not have the advantages we have for parts and glues.

Not quite true Roy, that slowly, and not with an electric drill in his hands. Because this is not a technical process. For me, such a procedure is a "small art", if you like shamanism, and the dive into the realm of the dead pianos. Yes, the method is not classic. It's unacceptable slow and tedious. It's does not give tuner "fast money for his repairs," as one a pin sometimes takes half an hour. However, it is only correct in the performance in terms of physics. All technicians are well aware why I have to say about the hammer. I repeat myself when we beating must suffer the neighboring pins. They are no longer fixed. This truth which no one here is why I know does not say a word ! Or is it no one knew? Therefore, only cardboard and not because he is not worth nothing. Only it's won the right "to treat vertical!" Just screwed pin!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 02:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Kamin

I recognized that I had some friction (in a blok of pine wood) with that cardboard insert. That does not mean it will stay put in time, but at last it explained to me way Maxims was so entitled in his process. Then as I tend to be honest on those matters I acknowledged that. But whenever I have a little more time I will do real tests with torque/meter, and manipulations.
The cardboard once turned to dust may do like the wood shims and begin to be inefficient after some time.


If properly understood, did Kamin tested the method of Maxim? For me, I say this quite frankly, my Great respect for You . Thank for your positive review.
Posted by: accordeur

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 02:25 PM

Max, have you even tried to find CA glue in Kazakhstan?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 02:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Kamin


If the trick with cardboard works because of some resin or something which is added to the cardboard, this could be a possibility to experiment, for instance some kind of resin could be used as it is done to repair woods .

Wholesome grains in it is, but we do not know how much resin take in every hole. It's need finely smudge here. If only there to immerse the probe camera. And then do an analysis of destruction pinblock
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 02:43 PM

Originally Posted By: accordeur
Max, have you even tried to find CA glue in Kazakhstan?

Unfortunately, I ordered one of his last winter my friend in Moscow. He said he did not find it's even in specialized glue's shop. This week a friend traveled to Samara and also could not buy.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/10/12 02:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
While using cardboard, veneer, sandpaper or any other type of substance may enable a loose wrestpin to grip with enough firmness to hold, it can only ever be thought of as a quick cheap fix!


I think there is merit to the argument that an already stressed, dry, cracking block can be made worse by hammering. At the very least, it's going to jar other pins out of tune also, if those pins are going.

still say a shim is a shim is a shim.

And I say:"YES,Loren D!"
"Одно лечим, другое калечим!"
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/11/12 01:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
While using cardboard, veneer, sandpaper or any other type of substance may enable a loose wrestpin to grip with enough firmness to hold, it can only ever be thought of as a quick cheap fix! It appears that Max is heck bent on using this forum to promote his own personal methods, and not to learn and take advice from the vast pool professionals who try to coach him.

He disagrees with hammering in wrestpins, saying that it causes damage ...... it doesn't cause damage .... it may be the last straw for surrounding wrestpins that are at the point of giving up the ghost. In which case they too need seeing to !

The removal of wrestpins generates heat .... turning them out slowly by hand can often leave them so hot that they can't be handled .... However, if removed quickly, using a power drill, they are nowhere near as hot, and because the process is so rapid, the plank suffers less heat damage.

If using cardboard is his only method (because of availability of materials and costs), then slowly screwing in the wrestpin ... which is now very much tighter, will generate a great deal of heat that can only be a bad thing for an already "soft" plank. Hammering in pins is by far the best practice of stringing .... it's quick ... and more to the point ... it causes MUCH LESS heat and potential damage to the plank.

You are all turned upside down,Johnkie. Do you not know that the fast speed of an electric drill is more harmful phenomenon for the pinblock in moment screwing. Ancient people made this such a way to born fire . They fast rotated wood stick as fast as allowed their physiology. Yes, in my video I really do it quickly, because it is very limited in time. But I explain in Russian, that the whole process should go as slowly as possible, so as not burned pinblock. In my experience, this never happened . This is possible only in theory. Do it's the slower and then the problem does not exist. Re setting the pin (and then slowly screwing in) - "Hammering in pins is by far the best practice of stringing .... it's quick ... and more to the point "score is total world practice? Whom it has been proved as the best. You can show technical calculation of different brands of pianos, which is the denial of screwing. You wrote that it is quick! Bravo! Russian proverb: "Fast, only cats are born" (быстро, только кошки родятся) Fast is not always reliable and good quality. I declare that any process, even with a hammering pin must be explained in terms of physics, if it is only right. If we hammered (with shim or oversize pin), then the following happens:
1 Power load from hitting on walls of pinblock acts more destructive than screwing. Existing cracks in the walls will inevitably increase. Because we act blindly.
2 When hammering, since pin made from steel, it will choose their location so as to penetrate into the soft and cracked wood fiber. Therefore, in practice new re placing hammering pin are not parallel to each other.
3 As a result of hammering on the pins re placed capable to completely destroy one of the sector of pinblock.
4 Do not go into details, I wrote earlier that the suffering neighbor pins, which still worked before.
The fact that the "Max is heck bent" is your right to say so, if you you consider possible for yourself lexicon talk the opponent about.
I have the honor, maxim_tuner
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/11/12 05:20 AM

Max :

You exhibit a desire to have not the slightest intention of listening to advice, and I'm not inclined to waste any further time on your posts. Why bother using this forum if you have no interest in learning from the wealth of experience on offer.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/11/12 07:02 AM

He is highly unnerving !!
most blocks dont hold because the wood is crushed and the resiliency have migrated from around the pin to farther regions, cracks happens but this is not the main problem .

Hammering a pin while the rest of the block is loaded with all those metal pins cannot do harm unless the block is cracked and there the solution is new wood, not shims.

BUT you need to have the correct tools to drive the pin straight.

When mounting new pins I even use a pneumatic "palm nailer" to drive pins, it provides a good fit, and ask me no effort.

We all meet pianos where some strings have been changed by making the coils on the inserted pins (by a tech that never learned to make the coil externally or who is lazy) .
The grip lower a lot because of heat, but also because it is the same as sanding the inside of the hole.

Those pins are the first to be defective when the piano is aging.

If one want to turn the pin he have to wait 5 minutes after every 2 turns so the pin get cold enough... it is really more than time consuming ...
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/11/12 07:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin

If one want to turn the pin he have to wait 5 minutes after every 2 turns so the pin get cold enough... it is really more than time consuming ...

Why would you put this replic for me is not clear? You repeat with marked regularity well-known all a things. I think to it's known for piano's technicians. One of thing you are right, it's about the inevitability of time to stretch it's for high-quality operation screwing a pin. This industrial-technological requirement for this method.
"He's very nervous" (Не дождётесь)
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/11/12 07:49 AM

I'm sure driving pins in also generates heat, so it's not like saying one way creates heat while the other doesn't. Yes, there differences in the coefficients of sliding friction vs. rolling friction (that's as far as I'll go, as it's been years since my high school physics class!), but there is friction in either case.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/11/12 07:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
and I'm not inclined to waste any further time on your posts.

Believe me it is not very great desire to answer your mistakes here. However, you do forces it and I must need to answer
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/11/12 08:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Loren D
I'm sure driving pins in also generates heat, so it's not like saying one way creates heat while the other doesn't. Yes, there differences in the coefficients of sliding friction vs. rolling friction (that's as far as I'll go, as it's been years since my high school physics class!), but there is friction in either case.

I agree with you,Loren D. The coefficient of friction is directly related to the density or partial it's absence between pins and wood. Perhaps if we hammering the coefficient less. But I do not think that difference is great.
In the case with corrugated cardboard shim is promotes like hot flatiron(iron) as if we ironed rolling pin from inside wood hole . Since almost for all heat it is directed on thin layers of the surface hole bush and cellulose particles of
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/11/12 08:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Loren D
I'm sure driving pins in also generates heat, so it's not like saying one way creates heat while the other doesn't. Yes, there differences in the coefficients of sliding friction vs. rolling friction (that's as far as I'll go, as it's been years since my high school physics class!), but there is friction in either case.


The friction type is sliding friction in both cases. I posit that the difference rather lies in the effective distance for which the metal is dragged across the wood. With driving, it's a distance of 1 1/2", at most 2". With turning, there are perhaps 10 turns, if not more, each of which covers a circumference of about 1", so the effective distance is 10", possibly more.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/11/12 08:51 AM

I'm not up on physics by a long shot, but now that I think of it, you're right. I was equating the turning of the pin in the block to a tire rolling on a road, but then it hit me that in the tire, there is also forward (or backward) motion.

You're right, in the case of the pin it's sliding friction both times since the pin is not also moving in the directional plane of the turning.
Posted by: molehill

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/11/12 12:02 PM

Already learned a lot from this thread!

No one has asked smooth surface cardboard vs. using a couple layers of the rippled interior alone and therefore maybe more original glue surface for better grip.

What if you combine the above with CA glue?

May I have permission to add these to the trial examples for Roy Rogers?

I misspoke, it is "Zap-A-Gap" (airplane modelers’ glue) I use. Important to mention its age is a concern. Discussed with other modelers. Always securely cap AND use the larger outer cap as well. Repairing even bare wood to wood a well capped older bottle bond is not always strong, especially on 1” scale dollhouse furniture legs, or chair arms. So please be suspect of a repair made with previously opened CA. I use and sell the ½ oz bottles for my small scale repairs.

Yes, I agree it has a glass-like surface. Successfully used that fact as a way to camouflage repair/refinishing of wood, resin and china. But would that glassy surface plus friction heat add to the deterioration of the bond? Maybe the fuzzier surface interior cardboard would compensate?

Drawn here to see if missing cardboard boat. I too believe only wood to wood and fabricate pieces myself. Other professional dollhouse builders use poster cardboard, or corrugated. I always called it “the weakest link”. But have used framing mat board as drywall to hide electrical wiring.

I also have experience behind my remarks. Reputed total perfectionist. Know which glues for what job, etc. Tools in my hands before my teens. BUT I AWAYS LEARN SOMETHING ON PIANO WORLD! That is why I joined this thread.
Posted by: molehill

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/11/12 12:04 PM

To all, sorry about previous long post, very depressed, decompressing. Wish made 2, piano damage and story behind it. Yes, should have gotten experienced tech but thought I was.

To Max, thank you for replying. At 20 you are far too young to feel your dreams have not been fulfilled. That is why at 57 ½ always eager to learn something new. Taking piano lessons, and hope to receive my tuner today. Thanks also for wishes I succeed at tuning, Will think of your encouragement often. Wish could give you a hug in person and a bottle of CA from my shop.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/12/12 02:43 AM

Originally Posted By: molehill
But would that glassy surface plus friction heat add to the deterioration of the bond?

Dear molehill, thank you for your comments and suggestions on the topic of our discussion of the process of corrugated cardboard and glue different materials. Your doubts about the necessary rigidity between the pins and the glass side of wood after the use of CA is really correct. I see that CA is able to provide the necessary bond between the pins and CA will be able to provide reliable hard fixation treated wood glue. The temperature does not count here. However, I think that after treatment with wood and glue is a firm grip. In fact we glue a pin with the hole of block and bush. While using the cardboard in the repair we increase small layer from cellulose for treatment wood the ruined surface block. If after a period of time we will need to turn the pin when the string is upset, goes down, I'm afraid that the peg will slide in the hole. However, this is just my guess
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/12/12 02:50 AM

Originally Posted By: molehill


May I have permission to add these to the trial examples for Roy Rogers?

molehill,you can't even imagine how I would be happy!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/12/12 03:04 AM

Originally Posted By: molehill

Maybe the fuzzier surface interior cardboard would compensate?

If I understand you correctly molehill, you propose to paste shim corrugated board in the hole. Preliminary to inflict CA on it and only then tighten the pin. It should be very reliable and tough. Sorry, I do not have this capability. Dear technicians, if possible, try the do it's test. To publish the results here
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/12/12 07:43 AM

I'm still not convinced about CA glue, even though it's widely accepted now.

Here's why: We all agree on the incredibly high capillary action of the stuff. I speculate that because of this, most of it wicks into the first porous material it finds, and in most modern pianos, that would be the pin bushing (I know not all makes have them, but I said "most.")

I think essentially what happens is that you glue the tuning pin to the bushing. I'd love to experiment on an old clunker with it once or twice.

Another thing I worry about would be liability. Those fumes are pretty nasty. If someone would wind up with an asthma attack, or be overcome by the fumes, that would not be good. Something to consider since this work is usually done in the customer's home. Remember the smell of Schaff's Garfield center pin solution? I wouldn't even use that in the customer's home, because of how bad it smelled.
Posted by: Ed Foote

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/12/12 08:41 AM

[quote=Loren D]I'm still not convinced about CA glue, even though it's widely accepted now.
Here's why: We all agree on the incredibly high capillary action of the stuff. I speculate that because of this, most of it wicks into the first porous material it finds, and in most modern pianos, that would be the pin bushing (I know not all makes have them, but I said "most.") /quote]

Greetings,
I have used CA for the last 6 years, once, even treating an entire piano that was being restrung,(no money for the block). It tunes like any other good piano. I was amazed. It consistently adds 15-30 lbs of torque to loose pins, which has always been plenty of tension to tune well with. I have never seen a loose pin in a bushing that didnt' have a small gap at the back, which is all that is needed to let it run down the pin.
The only skeptics I have seen are those that have little or no experience with CA. Try it on blocks that are in for replacement, try it on scraps of pinblock, etc.
Become familiar with the speed, ease, and results, and most reasonable people will see it as a vast improvement. I was trained in the most traditional ways of piano technology, and CA is "new", but it is so far ahead of the rest of the "restorers" that I wouldn't consider anything else.
If there wasn't sufficient torque with CA, it is a simple matter to go up a pinsize. The CA application doesn't hurt anything.
Regards,
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/12/12 08:59 AM

What about when someone goes to rebuild and finds the pinblock has been CA'd to the plate?
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/12/12 09:25 AM


Melt it with alcohol based solvent.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/12/12 09:59 AM

You did it , Dan ? You cannot melt cured CA as easily in my opinion (I recall when I had to clean the door lock that someone had gently poured with CA, it took 3 days (sorry, 5 days) with highly volatile solvents (Aceton, methyl ketone MEK). Alcohol did not do anything (but now I know how to do if the same "joke" happens again).

The problem of old mushy block is that we need 2/10 thickness of a highly resilient material to hold the original pîn, which BTW is not anymore having good threads usually. Also all the metal dust which is in the whole, mixed with the cardboard dust, will not hold the pin for very long unless one is able to tune it once every 5 years.

Cardboard is done with very soft wood, while pinblock is done with very hard one (not so hard but way more than the cellulose of the cardboard)

Then if it is possible to gain some grip with some anti adhesive product, plus a minimal holding, the tuning can be restored for a few years.

When I tested normal CA, it makes a bearing around the pin that where turning more easily after than before, so the grip capacity of the cured CA surface escapes me. When tuning that will probably also fall in dust, may be that dust is what makes the CA thing works, from your witnessings.




Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/12/12 10:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Loren D


I think essentially what happens is that you glue the tuning pin to the bushing.

because of how bad it smelled.


You're probably right Loren D, if the composition of this CA is acrylic thing re-screwing pin is placed now in a new bush. In fact, as if we put pin in a hole the half glass tube (flask). For me the question this way. Initially, metallic pin placed in the wood material. After repairing pin (metal)+ wood+ the lower part of the glass. Would it have a new connection to be reliable for several years it's work?
Loren D,how long is it is aired the smell from the room of week, month?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/12/12 10:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin


The problem of old mushy block is that we need 2/10 thickness of a highly resilient material to hold the original pîn, which BTW is not anymore having good threads usually. Also all the metal dust which is in the whole, mixed with the cardboard dust, will not hold the pin for very long unless one is able to tune it once every 5 years.

Cardboard is done with very soft wood, while pinblock is done with very hard one (not so hard but way more than the cellulose of the cardboard)

Then if it is possible to gain some grip with some anti adhesive product, plus a minimal holding, the tuning can be restored for a few years.

Thank you Kamin, for the discussion of corrugated cardboard. Victory may be considered for me if the pin is in the "new hole screwed" hold out and a string don't be weakened at least six months.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/12/12 10:36 AM

I am sorry Max but you miss totally the point there, , if you customers cannot pay you much you better repair the more that you can in a durable way, there is so much to do on most pianos.

Sometime I read you as if you had passed 40 years without any recognizing of your efforts and value, so you need to write youself how good you are.

Dont worry the services you give to your customers are valued, if not with money, by other means, and providing the best one is the only way, to me.

Gaining 6 months or even 2-3 years may be not enough under certain circumstances. And no fight there, old wire (after 10 years so to say) need very little pin friction to hold pitch normally, but then dryness and humidity are moving all the setup, that is why it does not stay put as well.

Old wire can be tuned in a poor holding block with some success once you get an adequate pin setting technique. Then it may hold for 6-months or a year without any shim (if not brutalized)
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/12/12 11:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin


Sometime I read you as if you had passed 40 years without any recognizing of your efforts and value, so you need to write youself how good you are.

Dont worry the services you give to your customers are valued, if not with money, by other means, and providing the best one is the only way, to me.

Perhaps unfortunately, I still didn't something very good and meaningful (me 40 years). So write about myself that I am super it would be indiscreet, wrong and arrogant. All my life I am turning pin of verticals and grateful customers pay a little money. I'm trying to learn new methods of tuning, but as you noticed me is not got nothing new and all my a tests vain
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/12/12 10:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
[quote=Loren D]I'm still not convinced about CA glue, even though it's widely accepted now.
Here's why: We all agree on the incredibly high capillary action of the stuff. I speculate that because of this, most of it wicks into the first porous material it finds, and in most modern pianos, that would be the pin bushing (I know not all makes have them, but I said "most.") /quote]

adds 15-30 lbs of torque to loose pins, which has always been plenty of tension to tune well with. I have never seen a loose pin in a bushing that didnt' have a small gap at the back, which is all that is needed to let it run down the pin.

Ed Foote,I am pleased that CA provides a margin of safety to the torque is good for pin. How do you tested measures a lost pin? Or is your personal feeling of your hand? I would like to learn more about it's. I have a question. If the CA gives adds 15-30 lbs of torque to loose pins, to result I think that a corrugated cardboard shim is not much less. I do not know how make need tested it
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/12/12 11:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Loren D
but there is friction in either case.

In our case, when a heat received as result the excessive friction after the installation of additional corrugated cardboard solvable only works for the benefit. As I wrote before it warms up some particles of starch or silicate glue and under high pressure evenly pieces cellulose to gradually pressed into the wall of hole (pinblock) and bush. But that process a screwing we can use the T-bar is not fast, and thus create the ideal temperature inside the timber. To reduce the temperature needs to be done several times and did not knock at full strength when we do hammering on the pin . But what I saw on YouTube, so no one does. There's technology of hammer beats is fast and strong .
In both technologies, re-install of a pin, we can control the friction force
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/14/12 11:19 PM

Originally Posted By: molehill

Like a fool let him return in Oct, he broke F1, left it missing until Jan when he replaced it with new string, larger pin, hammered it down to less an 1/8“ from harp surface, and also the other 8 below it, with a regular nail hammer and without removing action to support pin block. Caught him too late as he was finishing. Said he could have used CA as I suggested and have as Quick Grip that I use on dollhouse furniture repair, but he replied, “I don’t like it”. Still not able to bring myself to pull action to check if pin block is splintered.

Dear molehill, I am very sorry for you that this careless tuner you astray, and their unqualified actions spoiled your piano. However, let us pray that all is not so bad with your piano. The new tuner- technicians would have a collective decision to help you, I hope so. The fact that he scored the pin and got a negative result - just the thing for which I have to write here. Most importantly, the pinblock was not damaged. My opinion is that when we change the pin, whether a larger diameter, pouring CA, set up a cardboard shim it all would always - Arts. No matter how long the procedure, how much money spent. The main thing that don't hurt our grand pianos!

Without shim!

Sometimes the loose pin a technician to hammering into a hole pinblock. A pin provides for a little while frictions. In certain time last ,a pin would not provide the necessary friction. There is a problem, would can I do ? Without removing the string from the pin, I just twisted it off out of the pinblock the (2-3 turns) a little bit . Then I'm re-insert the string into the hole of pin and install it (screwed) to the " factory native location". He again works. I do not put shim in this case. I think the reason for which the pin begins to work again, to is that the wood's place of pinblock "rested" and not to had excessive pressure . The structure of wood after "rest" would be again provide the necessary friction for the metal pins in own native position of pinblock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66TAgDwJf...ture=plpp_video
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/15/12 07:38 AM

So because the people cannot pay you enough you see no advantage in learning to tune ?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/15/12 09:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
So because the people cannot pay you enough you see no advantage in learning to tune ?

Kamin, you are not quite right. This video is not intended to show Maxim can customize the right or wrong. Your diagnosis of my tuning you have to already placed categorically and clearly. I would not want to persuade and prove that I can do it perfectly. We live with you, if you want in different worlds, with different ideas about good and bad. I would not want a long and tedious to prove that vertical "Дружба" was bring and restored after 25 years oblivion of the unheated barn. Now it still can extract at least some sounds. The child engaged in music, parents collecting money on a new tool, etc. The video is dedicated to the problem of use hammering on a pin. I argued and shall do it hereinafter on the evils of this operation for a piano. Never beat on a pin ! Need to screw it's (native pin) into pinblock! Let's all forum's visitors to they see and draw conclusions. Let's think them and about their Inviting if they would need technician with a hammer. To beat or not to beat ...
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/17/12 09:29 PM

"Огромное спасибо за Ваш метод!!! Очень помогло".
Many thanks for your method! It helped. 23 years man from RF wrote me thanks. His name Max too

TheMaxim6666 6 дн. назад в плейлисте Tuning pins (piano) - Tightening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJvp9K936...p;feature=inbox
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/20/12 11:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Roy Rodgers


I'm not saying the card board fix is the best, or even that it may last very long, but that it may be usable in certain situations. Especially in places that may not have the advantages we have for parts and glues.

Dear technicians,forgive me for my molestation. But yesterday, I carefully re-read all the posts and found the words of Roy (06/10/12) as conclusive on the use of corrugated pads in specific cases. That's what I wrote in my mail a novice tuner- technician Boris from Ufa (Russia): "I have come to the client and I'm find a few bass pins (4) which twist off counterclockwise. They absolutely lost fixation. Owner of piano said to permits me to take risks and do things I think it necessary. Because guests were invited to her birthday. Already after 5 hours, all had to sit down at the table and to toasts to the health of the hostess piano. Vertical refused to work. I was originally skeptical of the corrugated shim, when I found your article to the inernet. However, as usual, I was afraid to do hammering on naughty pins. For me with risk, I had use your technology. Imagine my surprise when me managed to do it! It works! Now, I choose only the cardboard, I was again at this address after 2 months later, one pin released few, but I admit that this was due to the fact that I did the first time. " Perhaps Roy rights, sometimes in individual cases, it may help.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/21/12 10:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Why not just replace the tuning pin with a size or two larger and be done with it forever? smile

It is not always possible to to put an end.
When we beat hammer in pin of larger diameter (oversize), or after the installation of any shim and then is one negative point. After strike a hammer on the pin is its partial deformation of metal. It occurs then if wood's hole pinblock hard and not loosely. As a consequence it's possible that the professional tuning hammer will not be placed on a deformed pin. Such a pin will bad " to obey tuning hammer". Technician will agonizes with it. But it is rather an exception to the general practitioner. Seldom I'm have seen a deformed pin after a hammering
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/29/12 11:19 AM

On "Yahoo! Answers" online resource, a young man trying to do a shim. If I understand he did it. He writes that the method will be applied it's selectively . Because he thinks it can increase the excessive pressure on the pinblock. I totally disagree him misgivings. This operation harmless for a piano
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120315071421AAalI0b
Posted by: Maximillyan

Max's blessedness - 07/04/12 06:39 AM

Two days ago I received a message (Yahoo) from my adept, who lives in South Africa. He is very well says about "Max's cardboard fix"

nj
south africa

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
Hi Maxim, here I go again replying in your post. Your question on the previous one is quite vague (your way of using english language) which makes one wonder what you were trying to say. You quoted my words that I used footwrap. True and thanks to you, because I saw your video and tried it in some pins. Then you say here that the string must not be removed, then it is not an easy task to try. The strings will reach the point of breakage if you continue to turn the pin backwards for the purpose of loosening it. I did break one string so I continued with others having the strings removed after few turns, and putting it back is the most difficult part because of the acquired coiled shape of the string that you advised to be screwed back with the pin and not hammered in. But anyway with patience, I put it all in place and it really turned into super tightened pins with the cardboard wrap.
Source(s):
maxim's video

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;...01005853AA62DuJ
Posted by: Alexandr

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/09/12 01:22 PM

Hello people. I want to enter into your discussion about this method. You are live in Europe, America and etc., cannot understand the cause of this method. It is banal. This lack of material means or even the lack of materials. And even while living in Leningrad, it was hard for me to find the right pieces of black 20 pinblocks larger size are $ 13!. That we have, in the "second" capital of Russia. And imagine now, as is the case in the province. Only once in these conditions, we can talk sensibly about the usefulness of this method. With the help of carboard, I have managed to restore the badly-sounding strings. I want to thank Maxim for his gratuitous assistance.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/09/12 04:51 PM

hello, if you learn how to tune you dont need so much repairs. Also the technique provided is wrong (not taking out the coils) , and the man ininterested in learning any better.

So... no more comments necessary (he likes to be taken for a genious, as too. Many in that occupation ) bof.. as we use to say...
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 01:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Alexandr
With the help of carboard, I have managed to restore the badly-sounding strings. I want to thank Maxim for his gratuitous assistance.

I am very touched by your message. It turns out my counsel to help people "to treat their own piano". I hope that you will be have the new adherents of the method. Very nice that "foot wrap" works on the banks of the Neva. I'm wish you Good luck in this difficult matter. Ignore the non-constructive criticism of the method. Write about the problems and any things encountered when installing a the corrugated cardboard shim on russian. Read in detail the technology at the site http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/
and watch my movies.
Sincerely yours,maxim_tuner
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 01:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Also the technique provided is wrong (not taking out the coils) , and the man ininterested in learning any better.

Kamin, maybe I misunderstood you understand, but I insist that the coil can not be removed. Let the pin partially be scratched in process by screwing, but serious problems do not arise . If you remove the coil, you'll never pull it back to the pin. Especially it hard to make in (3)octave.
Conclusion: Do not to remove it's!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 02:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
So... no more comments necessary (he likes to be taken for a genious, as too.

Kamin,you are wrong. What his genius? if Max does not have special education. He hardly ever learn to make correct temperament due to own age and lack of good teachers. He is an old man shabby life is only lazy people do not spit in his face! All he has is a complete lack of understanding surrounding is the issue of public censure and all its negative manifestations. What do them to drive?
It is the desire of several people around the world which make test tight pin by his method
Posted by: ando

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 03:17 AM

Does anyone else get the feeling they are reading a discussion done through a Google translator?!
Posted by: Olek

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 04:05 AM

to change a tuning pin I take out the coil by opening it with a screwdriver after 3/4 turn back) then I put it back and hope the becket will not break.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 04:10 AM

but basically, as long you have a minimal torque (the tuning pin does not twist back by itself) you can manage the pin so it stay . it is called setting the pin and Max at 40 years is too old to learn that wink (I believe I understand it all at 50 so there is possiblvy some hope for the Max of this world)
Posted by: accordeur

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 04:52 AM

Tu n'est pas gentil Isaac, je crois que Max fait de son mieux. En même temps, il me tape sur les nerfs.

À cause des langues, mauvaises traductions etc...nous ne comprenons pas toujours ses intentions. Tu es d'accord?

Peut-être tu pourrais mieux t'exprimer, avec concision, sur ce forum.

J'aimerais mieux te lire en français que d'essayer de déchiffrer ton anglais.

C'est souvent une diahrée de mots avec une constipation d'idée.

J'aimerais te rencontrer en personne. Si tu viens au Canada, je t'accueillerais avec plaisir.

J'ose croire que je serai en France bientôt, pour jouer de la musique. Peut-être nous pourrons jaser?

Bonne soirée.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 05:33 AM

Bonjour , je trouve que j ai ete assez gentil, il ne veut pas apprendre, au pretexte que ses clients ne peuvent le payer correctement. Je n approuve pas cette attitude, c est tout. Ce qui m enerve c est qu il ne veut pas apprendre et propose fierement ses methodes. Quand je pense que son pere construisait des avions, niveau technologie on en est tres loin.

Pour mon anglais il est surement assez mauvais mais on ne parle pas philosophie, j essaye de faire profiter de ce que j ai pu comprendre, ca marche un peu sur les pieds des maitres auto proclames, mais certains parviennent a comprendre tt de meme il me semble.

Avec plaisir si tu viens a Paris previens moi. Tu dois jouer ou ? Je travaille avec certains loueurs de pianos, c est possible que ce soit la ou tu vas jouer...

Ps a priori tout ca m amuse, seule la betise et le manque d humilite m ennervent !

Bien cordialement
Posted by: Olek

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 05:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Also the technique provided is wrong (not taking out the coils) , and the man ininterested in learning any better.

Kamin, maybe I misunderstood you understand, but I insist that the coil can not be removed. Let the pin partially be scratched in process by screwing, but serious problems do not arise . If you remove the coil, you'll never pull it back to the pin. Especially it hard to make in (3)octave.
Conclusion: Do not to remove it's!


You need round nose pliers to hold the opened coil with some tension , orient the pin in front of the becket and put it back in the hole. Same method than when changing a string and making the coils on a dummy/spare pin , as it is done to avoid heating the pin. Those things are known and documented since 20 years. You may even find now youtube videos.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 08:04 AM

Originally Posted By: ando
Does anyone else get the feeling they are reading a discussion done through a Google translator?!

ando,pardon but we have to talk like that. Indeed, I think that my writings can be scary for someone and like parody incorrect English speech. However, thanks to (Google translator) and the huge tolerances of participant our forum many people see my movies around the world and they to writes letters for me. Most of the letters addressed to me from people which have interest about details the technology process (as to set shim). Once again sorry for bad english.
Sincerely yours,maxim_tuner
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 08:22 AM

Originally Posted By: accordeur
Tu n'est pas gentil Isaac, je crois que Max fait de son mieux. En même temps, il me tape sur les nerfs.

À cause des langues, mauvaises traductions etc...nous ne comprenons pas toujours ses intentions. Tu es d'accord?

accordeur,Peut-être vous avez raison, je et de se comporter avec plus de persistance dans ce forum. Toutefois, si vous n'êtes pas heureux de lire mon opus, c'est votre droit. Je crois que le joint en carton ondulé offre de friction. Dans l'avenir, ne pense pas que le droit de refuser cette méthode. Je ne peux pas trahir ses disciples. Désolé si mes paroles ont exprimé, ou mal traduit en quelque sorte pourrait vous blesser.
Nous serons tolérants les uns des autres.
Sincèrement, maxim_tuner
Posted by: Olek

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 08:33 AM

technology my ass!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 08:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Bonjour , je trouve que j ai ete assez gentil, il ne veut pas apprendre, au pretexte que ses clients ne peuvent le payer correctement. Je n approuve pas cette attitude, c est tout. Ce qui m enerve c est qu il ne veut pas apprendre et propose fierement ses methodes. Quand je pense que son pere construisait des avions, niveau technologie on en est tres loin.

Kamin,vous avez tort! J'aime vraiment je suis en train d'apprendre quelque chose de nouveau voulez associer à la configuration du piano. Je n'ai même pas pensé il ya ce qu'il ya un lien entre les réalisations de mon père (concepteur d'avion) et ma réticence à apprendre. Vous n'avez pas besoin de considérer ma méthode comme une sorte de caprice . Je suis calme comme jamais. Je ne veux pas d'atteinte à la dignité des autres maîtres, mais beaucoup d'entre eux ont tort quand ils parlent de mon invention peu. Prouver que cela ne fonctionne pas je vais manger leur chapeau ! Avec nos meilleures salutations et mes meilleurs vœux,
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 08:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
technology my ass!

and so says the frenchman, bravo!
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 09:15 AM

For goodness sake MAX .... we know you both favour, and advocate the use of cardboard to tighten loose wrestpins, but is there any need to go on and on about it? It seems that you are using this forum as a means of self-promotion rather than any intention to heed advice or educate yourself in the necessary skills of tuning.

We know exactly where you stand ... there is little point in labouring the subject, I suggest you concentrate on learning to tune.

If you really want to be taken seriously, and wish to post videos, then I suggest the subjet matter should refer to tuning improvement rather than cardboard.

Not only are you letting yourself down, but I feel that you are letting down those who were extremely generous in sending you various tools and other items to help you along the pathway of improvement.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/10/12 09:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
but I feel that you are letting down those who were extremely generous

Johnkie, no need to interfere the fresh with a sour.(Мешать кислое с пресным). I do not advertise themselves here on the forum. That you know perfectly well and consciously put the question to humiliate my human dignity. I already told you that do not need your advice, but now I have your answer.
1 I did not started a topic but Loren D
2 I'm reading your note now and learn how I did not have the opportunity to learn throughout their entire adult life. I'm learning a lot now
3 I never have no words, none of my act does not diminish the dignity of every human being. Why do you say I humiliate somebody ("I feel that you are letting down those who were extremely generous") members of the Forum by their speeches? It is a complete lie! I am grateful to all participants for any advice. And also for the assistance tools and books even more grateful them. Are you once said on the British forum about me: "Him (maxim_tuner_bodger) does not need help . Or do you forget?
4 I would be happy not to respond to attacks on my personal address is and how you notice and I don't would wrote a theme ... But so far no one has written: "It does not work and allow me publicly the evidence base of my experiments Here ." And we would really put the bullet on this topic. But ...
Posted by: Alexandr

Re: Max's blessedness - 07/11/12 05:15 PM

Hi everbody. I can see that the debate has moved on as who knows how to speak. And it is not good friends. After all, we are gathered here not to discuss the language of communication.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/12/12 08:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Alexandr
After all, we are gathered here not to discuss the language of communication.

Alexandr,you're right we are all here to either bury the corrugated cardboard shim and hammering an aspen stake on it's grave, or use it for other purposes. I hope that the language barrier is not a reason for personal animosity members of our forum. Only the truth us will judge in future
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/12/12 08:36 AM

i welcome any lines in this hot topic. Do not fear if it's chinese hieroglyphs
Posted by: Alexandr

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/12/12 09:57 AM

I worked on the railroad assistant engineer. And that such methods are always rescued us in case of failure. Of course, I understand that here we are talking about the piano, but my friends let us dwell on the fact that in any of the methods are effective and efficient if they yield the correct result and leave no bad effects, as I wrote above. For example, you are in the math lesson and the teacher suggested to you to solve the problem. Someone decides to one, the way someone else, but the main thing that they have come to the RIGHT answer.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/12/12 10:50 AM

The fact is that you may broke strings if you cannot keep the orivinal coils. but then, if you cannot have access to a pair of round nose pliers you have little solution.
Imostly write to explain Max followers that other means exis.
And BTW , the way he manipulates the tuning pin is not what I would call "no side effect" in the end the pinblock is ovalized and more shims may be necessary.
It is not indispensable to install thicker pins unless the whole piano is also re stringed . On antics where the original pin Have to be kept, wood shims are used (veener) . Possibly some resin or colophon could help.

To get a coil out you turn 1 turn back and use a small screwdiriver to open it . Then the tuning pin is extracted, 2 small veener shims installed k, the coil put back on the pin and thewhole thing is hammered.

But it is also possible to put the coil back once the pin is in place.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/13/12 06:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin

Imostly write to explain Max followers that other means exis.
And BTW , the way he manipulates the tuning pin is not what I would call "no side effect" in the end the pinblock is ovalized and more shims may be necessary.

Isaac, je ne m'attendais pas à une telle lire ici. Si je vous comprends bien vous reconnaissez l'efficacité de la cale de carton ondulé lorsque l'utilisation dans le trou le sommier est une (oval) ellipse. Je vous remercie pour cette remarque, je suis reconnaissant pour la réponse technique compétent pour le problème de décision.
Isaac,I did not expect such a read here. If I understand you correctly you acknowledge the efficiency of use corrugated cardboard shim when in the pinblock's hole is ellipse . Thank you for this remark, I am thankful for the competent technical answer for the decision problem.
Posted by: Emmery

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/13/12 04:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
The fact is that you may broke strings if you cannot keep the orivinal coils. but then, if you cannot have access to a pair of round nose pliers you have little solution.
Imostly write to explain Max followers that other means exis.
And BTW , the way he manipulates the tuning pin is not what I would call "no side effect" in the end the pinblock is ovalized and more shims may be necessary.
It is not indispensable to install thicker pins unless the whole piano is also re stringed . On antics where the original pin Have to be kept, wood shims are used (veener) . Possibly some resin or colophon could help.




To get a coil out you turn 1 turn back and use a small screwdiriver to open it . Then the tuning pin is extracted, 2 small veener shims installed k, the coil put back on the pin and thewhole thing is hammered.

But it is also possible to put the coil back once the pin is in place.


I tried looking up "colophon" on line and found nothing that makes sense...what is this?

Also, if your hammering back in a pin, I can suggest leaving it about the thickness of coin, higher than the rest of the pins. When you bring it back up to pitch, it should end up at the right height.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/13/12 05:29 PM

sorry the "colophon" is the resin used on violin bow...
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/13/12 11:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The fact is that you may broke strings if you cannot keep the orivinal coils. but then, if you cannot have access to a pair of round nose pliers you have little solution.
Imostly write to explain Max followers that other means exis.
And BTW , the way he manipulates the tuning pin is not what I would call "no side effect" in the end the pinblock is ovalized and more shims may be necessary.
It is not indispensable to install thicker pins unless the whole piano is also re stringed . On antics where the original pin Have to be kept, wood shims are used (veener) . Possibly some resin or colophon could help.




To get a coil out you turn 1 turn back and use a small screwdiriver to open it . Then the tuning pin is extracted, 2 small veener shims installed k, the coil put back on the pin and thewhole thing is hammered.

But it is also possible to put the coil back once the pin is in place.


I tried looking up "colophon" on line and found nothing that makes sense...what is this?

Also, if your hammering back in a pin, I can suggest leaving it about the thickness of coin, higher than the rest of the pins. When you bring it back up to pitch, it should end up at the right height.

That is, if I understand you right, Emmery recommend not to finish off process we work are hammering and a pin the size of the thickness of the coin between pins? And then in the process of tuning when we shall screw it the way to equalize this pin, as the location of all others
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/13/12 11:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
sorry the "colophon" is the resin used on violin bow...

Thank Kamin,rosin (colophony, resin) is very good if you first rub it's "sick pin" when a pin off. I shall definitely try it. Russin version name "канифоль"
Posted by: Alexandr

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/14/12 04:28 AM

The fact that little material in the network settings on the instrument. At the same maxim_tuner of all well-described and placed "on the shelves." Now, why exactly his way. At first I did not have a special hammer and other tools yet (and now they do not). Secondly, that clog the pegs with a hammer, I learned from him and he said you can not do so. Fully sharing his opinions, I decided to try the easiest method - cardboard. After all, as I wrote in my last letter, I worked on the railroad, and the effectiveness of these techniques are no doubt several
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/14/12 05:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
sorry the "colophon" is the resin used on violin bow...

Thank Kamin,rosin (colophony, resin) is very good if you first rub it's "sick pin" when a pin off. I shall definitely try it. Russin version name "канифоль"


Some technicians used to dip the pin in resin or in varnish when mounting new pins. it is not common, and on a good pinblock it may create "cracking pins" which is not good.

But when working on original pin and old block, some resin powder in the hole could possibly help (I would not use a diluted solution, if the wood fibers are gled with the resin possibly the effect will be bad)

I did not try that, it is just an idea.

About installing the pin while turning it, it may be interesting to compute the enlarging of the 7. mm pin with heat. this is what cause the pinblock to suffer, possibly the heat also is not good for the glue that hold the ply of the block and then the friction lowers.

WHen we find pianos with replaced strings and the technician have screwed the new string (only 3 turns, not as much as when the whole pin is out) the torque of those pins is way lower and they are the first to fail 10-15 years ago.

When repairing things on pianos, the good state of mind is to fix the things so they stay repaired very long.
The "quick and dirty" is not compatible with musical instruments.

When it comes to loose pins, the most important thing is to understand how to "set the pin" so it is not necessary to tune so often. On old wire we have no probelms with wire elongation or loosing its pitch, little friction and bends are enough to keep the piano tuned at an accepteable level.

mating the bends once the piano is tuned, trying to have a light torque in the pin (possibly twisted on itself , I wish I can test that someday), a 1900-30 piano can stay tuned for 2-3 years under normal use, and even more in good conditions. the pitch drop can be around .5 Hz in 10 years, so if the piano is tuned correctly it will stay accepteable..

Then for a concert I am pleased to tune the piano twice the same day wink

When it comes to the money spend by the customer, it is better spend by maintening the action in shape than tuning every so often.

For some customers I even invite them to buy a tuning lever, use a good software, and keep their piano tuned, particularely if it is not a first grade instrument or if it have no particular musical value.

But they HAVE to understand what is going on with the pin and the wire, how to hold the tuning lever so the stress is minimal on the block, .. or they will do no good to their piano...



Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/14/12 05:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The fact is that you may broke strings if you cannot keep the orivinal coils. but then, if you cannot have access to a pair of round nose pliers you have little solution.
Imostly write to explain Max followers that other means exis.
And BTW , the way he manipulates the tuning pin is not what I would call "no side effect" in the end the pinblock is ovalized and more shims may be necessary.
It is not indispensable to install thicker pins unless the whole piano is also re stringed . On antics where the original pin Have to be kept, wood shims are used (veener) . Possibly some resin or colophon could help.




To get a coil out you turn 1 turn back and use a small screwdiriver to open it . Then the tuning pin is extracted, 2 small veener shims installed k, the coil put back on the pin and thewhole thing is hammered.

But it is also possible to put the coil back once the pin is in place.


I tried looking up "colophon" on line and found nothing that makes sense...what is this?

Also, if your hammering back in a pin, I can suggest leaving it about the thickness of coin, higher than the rest of the pins. When you bring it back up to pitch, it should end up at the right height.

That is, if I understand you right, Emmery recommend not to finish off process we work are hammering and a pin the size of the thickness of the coin between pins? And then in the process of tuning when we shall screw it the way to equalize this pin, as the location of all others


The pin goes down the thickness of a coin with 2 turns
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/14/12 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
sorry the "colophon" is the resin used on violin bow...

Thank Kamin,rosin (colophony, resin) is very good if you first rub it's "sick pin" when a pin off. I shall definitely try it. Russin version name "канифоль"


But when working on original pin and old block, some resin powder in the hole could possibly help (I would not use a diluted solution, if the wood fibers are gled with the resin possibly the effect will be bad)

I did not try that, it is just an idea.

About installing the pin while turning it, it may be interesting to compute the enlarging of the 7. mm pin with heat. this is what cause the pinblock to suffer, possibly the heat also is not good for the glue that hold the ply of the block and then the friction lowers.


Kamin, you really convinced me not to rub colophony a pin if we make a method of reinstallation (cardboard shim). Because here would be very increased friction between a pin and a hole's pinblock. It's can damage the quality whole pinblock . Would be also be a negative interaction a colophony with the adhesive and a fibers of a pinblock .
But for me it is still controversial a theme about a harm 7mm pin when turn it's into pindlock. I wrote earlier that the hammer blow no less devastating for the whole pinblock . If we theoretically to turned pin into a pinblock very slowly with interruptions the threat of the pinblock will be brought to a minimum
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/14/12 08:50 AM

Kamin:

I have never heard of resin being used with wrestpins. French chalk yes, but resin?

Surely resin (as used on such as violin bows) is something to increase friction, but not the same type of friction required for wrestpins.

Resin tends to be very sticky, and would cause immense problems with wrestpin setting ... you know the sort of thing where the smallest of movements become impossible because the pins are sticking so badly in the block, instead of being tight but "smoothly adjustable"

What I'm trying to say is that resin would be ideal in situations where two components need to be permanently fixed, but only counter-productive where fine adjustment is the paramount requirement.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/14/12 10:28 AM

Quote:
Surely resin (as used on such as violin bows) is something to increase friction, but not the same type of friction required for wrestpins.


Do you mean rosin?
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/14/12 10:36 AM

Yes, rosin, I have seen that mentioned on old issues of the PTG journal, (I could look for that in the collection I have) , as technicians dipping the tuning pin in varnish (some varnish may contain rosin)

Of course extra friction is really counter productive to smooth tuning, but I thought that in case of old ovalized block and pins that hardly show traces of their original thread, that could be useful, anyway easy to test a,nd I doubt the pin will be untuneable afterthat.

I tried rosin on the strike point (rubbed on a cloth then on the underside of wire ) and that was funny !
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/14/12 10:41 AM

I think rosin is an ingredient in many pin tightening liquids.
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/14/12 10:57 AM

Rosin - Resin ... same thing, but often called Rosin when used by String players. wink
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/15/12 12:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Yes, rosin, I have seen that mentioned on old issues of the PTG journal, (I could look for that in the collection I have) , as technicians dipping the tuning pin in varnish (some varnish may contain rosin)

Of course extra friction is really counter productive to smooth tuning, but I thought that in case of old ovalized block and pins that hardly show traces of their original thread, that could be useful, anyway easy to test a,nd I doubt the pin will be untuneable afterthat.


Dear techniсs, I unfortunately am unable to perform similar experiments (varnish, colophony, talc and chalk). I believe that Isaac right that the presence of these materials will help to and increase the friction necessary for us in the oval holes of the block. However, there is no clear technology reinstall a pin coated with a certain amount of a colophony . How impose into the hole of a block it?
Or to rub a colophony a pin?
If your hammering back in a pin so a colophony the is not evenly place in the hole of a block. That does not give us the desired effect of friction. If we shall turn a pin into a block, then the excess friction greatly can be damaged old holes.
Referring to his own practice, I can only note that the volume should be about 300 cubic. mm. (20mm * 50mm * 3mm *) on one pin. 300 cubic. mm is the amount of corrugated cardboard shim on one pin in re setting as I use
Posted by: Emmery

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/15/12 08:40 AM

Rosin and similar materials performing materials (chalk)that add friction should not be used in place of proper fitting pins on pianos. With violins and instruments using heavily tapered pegs, rosin helps keep the pegs in place, both lengthwise and rotationally. Not needed on proper fitting tuning pins.

Even the powdered dust residue from glues and epoxy in heavily laminated blocks (eg. delignat) can form a glaze between the pin and the wood and produce creepy/jumpy feel on it. If the drill is not properly cooled and the hole is not drilled with enough feed, too much glazing can occur. Properly cleaning out the hole afterwards with pressurized air and a swab is added insurance against preventing glazing. I believe this is also one the reasons the pins are driven in with hammer, not wound in...it prevents glazing from excess friction/heat.

I try and get the pins in with 3 or four hits with a heavy steel mallet using a proper fitting driver. Light tapping is not the way to go on pin installation IMHO.

Although pin dopes sometimes contain rosin, most contain(ed) glycerin as a humectant. It attracted and helped hold moisture into the wood to swell it. Outside of the ugly stains and attracted dirt found on doped blocks, I often find excessively rusted pins on these treated pianos because of that moisture being concentrated near the pin.

Max, you should eventually get yourself some reamers (set) or an adjustable reamer to properly deal with loose pins and oval pin holes. Servicing them this way by using larger pin replacements puts the feel on the pin back back to the closest condition it was when new. I will on occasion use CA glue on cheaper pianos or in cases where the pin size has reached the limit; its basically a last resort method before a piano reaches the end of its life, but nothing beats a carefully sized and prepped pin replacement in my opinion.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/15/12 09:34 AM

Yes Emmery, chalk could even be better to protect against glaze, as powered Teflon used on the nap of knuckles avoid contamination from the graphite of the whippen and jack,

Sure the glaze is the worst problem, be it for an old typical block or for a Delignit (plus the glue heated when boring that cause those cracking pins on poorly drilled pinblocks)

I thought one of the reason slow pull raise the pin's friction is that because of the slow move in the hole, the fiber is oriented slowly, so when the pin is set by turning back the grip get better.

I find a video where I use different hammer techniques on a vertical, slow pull, tapping, and where I show the pin stiffness difference, that is (to me ) heard, when the hammer is gently pulled, some notes don't change, other do, the tone is also firmer and cleaner with a more deep pin setting...

The piano used for the demo is 30 years old and the pinning was very smooth and too light at that time. It is actually firm as if the piano was new, and I sure like to have an explanation on that.


hammer techniques on a vertical

please let me know if the sound is Ok, I believe I put the same video on Youtube :
http://youtu.be/Kw89pDlWcKE
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/15/12 12:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Rosin and similar materials performing materials (chalk)that add friction should not be used in place of proper fitting pins on pianos. With violins and instruments using heavily tapered pegs, rosin helps keep the pegs in place, both lengthwise and rotationally. Not needed on proper fitting tuning pins.

Even the powdered dust residue from glues and epoxy in heavily laminated blocks (eg. delignat) can form a glaze between the pin and the wood and produce creepy/jumpy feel on it. If the drill is not properly cooled and the hole is not drilled with enough feed, too much glazing can occur. Properly cleaning out the hole afterwards with pressurized air and a swab is added insurance against preventing glazing. I believe this is also one the reasons the pins are driven in with hammer, not wound in...it prevents glazing from excess friction/heat.

I try and get the pins in with 3 or four hits with a heavy steel mallet using a proper fitting driver. Light tapping is not the way to go on pin installation IMHO.

Although pin dopes sometimes contain rosin, most contain(ed) glycerin as a humectant. It attracted and helped hold moisture into the wood to swell it. Outside of the ugly stains and attracted dirt found on doped blocks, I often find excessively rusted pins on these treated pianos because of that moisture being concentrated near the pin.

Max, you should eventually get yourself some reamers (set) or an adjustable reamer to properly deal with loose pins and oval pin holes. Servicing them this way by using larger pin replacements puts the feel on the pin back back to the closest condition it was when new. I will on occasion use CA glue on cheaper pianos or in cases where the pin size has reached the limit; its basically a last resort method before a piano reaches the end of its life, but nothing beats a carefully sized and prepped pin replacement in my opinion.

Emmery, this is one of the best responses in this thread about a shim.
I found the answer a technician- practic here. I learned for myself a lot of new and a profit.
Especially informative for me, that "the need to beat with 3-4 strikes with a heavy hammer." Share your point of view, it is more painless for the block.
Thank you, so suggested about the inadmissibility of the use of colophony. As contained in its structure "as a humectant glycerin." I think it is really swollen pores of wood will collect moisture. As a result, rust metal base whole a pin.
Thanks again for your good wishes and advice on acquisitions in the future, special reamers for oval holes.
Sincerely, maxim_tuner
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/15/12 12:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Kamin

I thought one of the reason slow pull raise the pin's friction is that because of the slow move in the hole, the fiber is oriented slowly, so when the pin is set by turning back the grip get better.

Perhaps this is so
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/17/12 11:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Kamin:

I have never heard of resin being used with wrestpins. French chalk yes, but resin?

Surely resin (as used on such as violin bows) is something to increase friction, but not the same type of friction required for wrestpins.

Resin tends to be very sticky, and would cause immense problems with wrestpin setting ... you know the sort of thing where the smallest of movements become impossible because the pins are sticking so badly in the block, instead of being tight but "smoothly adjustable"

What I'm trying to say is that resin would be ideal in situations where two components need to be permanently fixed, but only counter-productive where fine adjustment is the paramount requirement.


Johnkie, if you will not be difficult to write a "French chalk" about. is it a talc? How it is used (in) with a wrestpins? Rub a pin "French chalk" before a hammering in a wrestplank?
Posted by: Alexandr

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/22/12 05:31 AM

I just sprinkled the usual chalk a corrugated cardboard shim before installation. Tried it with only one pin. I'm tighten(turn) the pin that was no more difficult than without the chalk by Max's method when I became it's tune, it is very difficult to turn over into the pinblock and a pin a little squeak. After 2 days of pin has not loose but I did use the chalk will not, because what happens super friction. It's a pin very difficult to tuning.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/22/12 06:14 AM

"French chalk" is not really chalk it is a stone which contain calcium and clay.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marl
it may probably provide less friction.
Thank you for the witnessing.

Russian version :
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/25/12 12:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
"French chalk" is not really chalk it is a stone which contain calcium and clay.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marl
it may probably provide less friction.

Isaac,I agree if we use any (chalk, rosin, French chalk, sandarac) or perhaps a mix based on them should be guided by the actual state of the friction between the pins and a pinblock. Perhaps the French chalk on the basis of alcohol would provide a mild state of screwing with a shim, if rub loose pin when reinstalling it's. It may be unnecessary to resort to using corrugated a shim. The main is to in the time reinstall the pin did not issued a squeak. And when tuner be tuning the piano a pin must moved smoothly without jerking into a pinblock
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/25/12 03:35 AM

If the pin squeak (crack) you need better technique to tune, but you are sure that it will not move anymore. A good piano often cracks when the pitch is raised

Poor pin setting or lack of technique give the impression that the block does not hold well enough.

But it is possible to tune even with little holding of the pin. (I believe I did not use any shim for years)

What makes it difficult is when there is much friction under the string (grand pianos) and marks in the agrafes.
the part of string in front of the pin have to be tense the same than the pin and the same as the rest of the string, so if you cannot manipulate it smoothly tuning is difficult.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/25/12 04:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin

Poor pin setting or lack of technique give the impression that the block does not hold well enough.

But it is possible to tune even with little holding of the pin. (I believe I did not use any shim for years)

Unfortunately, I have not a lot of practice with the grand piano. But, Isaac you have to be right when writes that as a result of proper technique work with pins, even irretrievably lost pin suddenly begins to to fix as good. I had to experience this feeling with a grand piano name "Красный Октябрь". Initially a few pins after a short time lost friction, but after a few my approaches to the Grand and a repeat it's tuning , a miracle! A pins began to to stand as need. I had deliberately inflated step, it's are dispensed before the desired the moment
Posted by: Emmery

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/25/12 12:59 PM

I would like to add a bit of info to Max's post about the cardboard shims. In the mid 80's when I finished my technicians schooling, I travelled to central eastern Europe and spent some time in several (at that time communist ruled) countries gypsying around (and visiting relatives). I had my tuning lever and some minimal tools with me and tuned pianos wherever I went, just for the experience and exposure to European instruments. Toured many restoration and piano rebuilding businesses also.

Well I came across many pianos that had slips of plain paper used as shims to tighten up the grip on loose pins. I aquired the practice myself as it was ridiculously difficult to aquire any specialty items for the trade at the time. Long queue lines were normal at that time for even simple commodities.

Sometimes I seen shims of thicker material, like what postcards and shoe boxes were made from, other times a single piece of paper was folded in half to provide more grip. Interestingly, several of these pianos I visited a decade later and the fix was still working fine. Its not a short term fix, if done correctly.

Also, sometimes if one wishes to use a wood shim, they become brittle if they are as thin as paper. On a marginally loose pin that would become too tight with the thinnest wood shim, paper is a good solution. Cardboard on the other hand may work better than folded paper when the pins are very loose, as max has demonstrated.

Years later, working in tool and die, I found that paper was a perfect material to put between thin metal parts and the surface grinders magnetic table. Without it, the magnetic grip was not strong enough to secure the thin parts. The coefficient of friction is much higher between paper and metal than it is for metal on metal. This process is used all the time in the trade to solve this problem.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/25/12 11:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
I would like to add a bit of info to Max's post about the cardboard shims. In the mid 80's when I finished my technicians schooling, I travelled to central eastern Europe and spent some time in several (at that time communist ruled) countries gypsying around (and visiting relatives). I had my tuning lever and some minimal tools with me and tuned pianos wherever I went, just for the experience and exposure to European instruments. Toured many restoration and piano rebuilding businesses also.

Well I came across many pianos that had slips of plain paper used as shims to tighten up the grip on loose pins. I aquired the practice myself as it was ridiculously difficult to aquire any specialty items for the trade at the time. Long queue lines were normal at that time for even simple commodities.

Sometimes I seen shims of thicker material, like what postcards and shoe boxes were made from, other times a single piece of paper was folded in half to provide more grip. Interestingly, several of these pianos I visited a decade later and the fix was still working fine. Its not a short term fix, if done correctly.

Also, sometimes if one wishes to use a wood shim, they become brittle if they are as thin as paper. On a marginally loose pin that would become too tight with the thinnest wood shim, paper is a good solution. Cardboard on the other hand may work better than folded paper when the pins are very loose, as max has demonstrated.

Years later, working in tool and die, I found that paper was a perfect material to put between thin metal parts and the surface grinders magnetic table. Without it, the magnetic grip was not strong enough to secure the thin parts. The coefficient of friction is much higher between paper and metal than it is for metal on metal. This process is used all the time in the trade to solve this problem.

Dear Emmery, a tears roll down my cheeks. But it's tears caused by a feeling of joy, corrugated cardboard shim is not Max's focus of, but the real thing. It's capable of effectively strengthen (tighten up) loose piano's pin. Emmery, thank you for those good words. What you have written is YOUR theoretic, a practice way"
Regards from Max
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/26/12 04:03 AM

Thanks Emmery for witnessing your experience, Yes I was surprised to have a good feel under the lever, with the cardboard, but once the pin is took of only dust is left in the hole. I had no opportunity to make more testing, but it is intended with next strings change

So it is widely used in East Europe. Interesting that different thickness/material face different situations.
Sure wood shims get crushed in the block

for lower tensions harpsichord and forte pianas I

know that brass shims are doing the job better than wood shims, for what have been told me.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/26/12 08:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Thanks Emmery for witnessing your experience, Yes I was surprised to have a good feel under the lever, with the cardboard, but once the pin is took of only dust is left in the hole. I had no opportunity to make more testing, but it is intended with next strings change

So it is widely used in East Europe. Interesting that different thickness/material face different situations.

Isaac,the thickness of corrugated cardboard shim depends , as you rightly have noticed depletion of the holes in the pinblock. I can not advise to use in all cases, 3 mm corrugated cardboard. Perhaps in some cases, this thickness is 1.5 mm, if the pin is not completely loose a friction . Required thickness shim must determine myself technic,which it's to set
I have written repeatedly before, that the dust that you found in the hole's of pinblock is inevitable. While as we turn a pin into a pinblock a shim is partially destroyed and cellulose dust remains in the hole. Much of this dust, pressurized hot a pin penetrates into the cracks of a pinblock to filling it. Therefore, this cracks can be roughly considered as recieved repaired and been sanded. Undisturbed a part of the shim works as a classical shim for wedging.
If I understand you, then you have already conducted tests with a cardboard shim. Isaac, when you repeat this operation in a future please describe how it was.
Regards, Max
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/26/12 09:54 AM

Max, I believe that the hole may not be cracked, but only too much compressed, hence low elasticity of the wood and too much space between the pin and the block.

Due to the dimensions in order, I wonder if the very light torque + bend applied to the tuning pin suffice to compensate for some wear, up to some point of course. (then the pin is less straight in the hole.
When I feel the torque in the block raising I can feel it as if at first only a little torque exists at the bottom of the pin, then after a few tuning manipulations, the friction raise from the bottom of the pin to a higher part of it.in the end I can feel the grip on half of the pin, or may be 2/3.

Paper may add more friction than some oily wood, sure when poplar shims are used they fall in dust too, but the pin can be hammered.

If the block have really cracked layers, I dont believe it can be really repaired without gluing new wood dowels.







Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/26/12 11:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Max, I believe that the hole may not be cracked, but only too much compressed, hence low elasticity of the wood and too much space between the pin and the block.

Isaac,I'm mean just micro cracks around the cylindrical outer wall of the hole of bush and hole's pinblock . I admit, and your assumption about of strong wood compression. I'm think so that (wood layers of a pinblock) can loose their a hitch gluing
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/26/12 11:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin

Due to the dimensions in order, I wonder if the very light torque + bend applied to the tuning pin suffice to compensate for some wear, up to some point of course. (then the pin is less straight in the hole.
When I feel the torque in the block raising I can feel it as if at first only a little torque exists at the bottom of the pin, then after a few tuning manipulations, the friction raise from the bottom of the pin to a higher part of it.in the end I can feel the grip on half of the pin, or may be 2/3.


Bravo,Isaac.
This axiom must be understood a tuner of piano
Posted by: Emmery

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/26/12 11:27 AM

Some folks have mentioned some success with epoxy on cracked blocks. I don't know how nice that pin will feel afterwards since I normally try and scrub out residual glue powder with a gun brush and blow clean after reaming, before driving in a new pin.

The 1/2" delignit pinblock dowels work great if you prep them properly for installation. I stipple the outer surface with a sharp punch for better adhesion.
Normal dowels with the grain aligned in the direction of the pin length will not provide a long term good solution.

Some suppliers are selling broken up sets of pins now (dozen/half dozen ect..) so there really is no big financial set back not to be supplied with every size/length configuration for in field repairs. You can supply yourself with every combination possible (including blued and nickel plated) for about the cost of a full set of decent pins these days.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/29/12 03:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
I normally try and scrub out residual glue powder with a gun brush and blow clean after reaming, before driving in a new pin.

Emmery, I do think that so epoxy's glued and the frozen section of a pinblock will be greatly have the necessary friction between wood metal pins. However, what you are doing pre-cleaning this a holes after the epoxy's hardens"a gun brush" it is correct. Thus, when screwing or if a hammering of mallet a pin will not be badly as a pin out change. You can tuning this pin. It's will have a uniform frictions and will not be any problem for the technic
Posted by: Emmery

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/29/12 01:11 PM

Max, you may have misunderstood what I wrote. I don't use epoxy as a repair for cracked pin blocks myself. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it was Del Fandrich who mentioned this repair option in another post a while back. I believe the pin is driven into the wet epoxy and then it gets twisted/broken free after it sets. Since I haven't used this process myself I can't comment on what kind of condition it leaves the pin in, for tuning afterwards.

The gun brush I use is a new .270 caliber bronze bristled brush or a worn out 30 cal. brush for oversized holes. I have it attached to a T handle. I will use the brush after drilling a pin hole or reaming one, just to loosen any glue residue, sawdust and glazing. Once its blown out with high pressure air you are left with nice clean wood contact on the pin that gets driven in.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/29/12 09:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Max, you may have misunderstood what I wrote. I don't use epoxy as a repair for cracked pin blocks myself. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it was Del Fandrich who mentioned this repair option in another post a while back. I believe the pin is driven into the wet epoxy and then it gets twisted/broken free after it sets.

Emmery,I'm sorry, I thought that we are talking about repairing cracks with epoxy block. What concerns the direct injection of epoxy into the hole, I say "No". If we pour epoxy into the hole and then put the pin back, it is glued a pin with wood hole of the block. I think that a tuning such a pin would be difficult to make
Posted by: Alexandr

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/30/12 07:04 AM

I read the message, "Emmery". His entire message confirms that the carboard is effective.I’m entirely sure.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 07/30/12 09:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Alexandr
I read the message, "Emmery". His entire message confirms that the carboard is effective.I’m entirely sure.

Dear Alexandr I also hope that the message by Emmery is a good example for practical technicians of a piano. There they were able to see examples of his rehabilitation work with the piano (East Europe) to use that cardboard is really able to establish the loose pins. I can only add that the installation of corrugated board works perfectly. Dear technicians do not be afraid to use it in my own everyday practice
Posted by: Alexandr

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 08/10/12 12:21 AM

In some cases, I use a thick more 3mm corrugated shim
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 08/10/12 10:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Alexandr
In some cases, I use a thick more 3mm corrugated shim

There are times when the bush and the hole of pinblock is considerably lost its original factory size. Their wooden part of the damaged much more than usual. I admit that the technican would be feel this pin which lost its hard status in the hole. I think that is possible here to use corrugated cardboard shim more than 3 mm ( size 4-4.5) mm. In this case it is advisable not to overdo it in oversize the shim when we will turn pin in the hole. It will be difficult to catch the hammer in the desired location a during tuning
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 08/12/12 08:57 AM

Today a man sent me this link. There my article about corrugated shim, someone has translated into Ukrainian
http://wordlaw.org.ua/2012/05/10/tradicii-i-realnist-abo-shhe-raz-pro-kolki.html
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 08/14/12 01:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
will generate a great deal of heat that can only be a bad thing for an already "soft" plank. Hammering in pins is by far the best practice of stringing .... it's quick ... and more to the point ... it causes MUCH LESS heat and potential damage to the plank.

http://ivavawogoden.my3gb.com/loose-tuning-pianos-piano.php
British men at the beginning ridiculed Max, but link remained
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 08/31/12 08:18 AM

Edward guy from Slovakia don't hammering a pin as maxim_tuner when he repaired his old upright is Roemhildt-Weimar (1881)[b][/b]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUjNpjPnB5M
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 09/04/12 08:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Edward guy from Slovakia don't hammering a pin as maxim_tuner when he repaired his old upright is Roemhildt-Weimar (1881)[/b]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUjNpjPnB5M


Edward wrote[b]"Yes! I completely agree, Sir! .....This is main reason, why I didn't want to use hammer and chose way of screwing all the way in...sometimes I used hammer..but it was 1 -2 blows to stick it ....but not always"
Posted by: Emmery

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 09/04/12 10:19 AM

Max, there are several reasons why hammering the pin in is better than winding it in when installing.

In fact, in Reblitzs' book (Pg 97) he advises..."...Place the pin setter on the pin, and drive it in with the hammer, leaving a small space between the wire and the plate. The pin setter prevents the pin from turning too much when struck with the hammer..." The particular pin setter he refers to has a side handle to stabilize it and the head actuall fits over the tapers on the pin preventing it from turning.

I use a setter that contacts the top of the pin and does not fix it in place rotationally, but if the pins driven in with 3-4 really solid blows, it turns very little in the process and it does not heat up very much.

The surface of the fine threads on the pin are actually quite course because they are manufactured with a threading die. These are very shallow threads that do not conform to the standard 60 deg Unified Thread profile. These tiny serations will size up the hole a bit if you wind that pin around 30-40 times.

Look at the surface finish photos of metal after being threaded on pg 193-195 of the following...
http://www.me.mtu.edu/~jwsuther/Publications/150_PA030.pdf

This should give you a better understanding that the pin acts like fine sandpaper.

As an experiment, you can take two identically tight pins, remove them and re-install. Drive one in with a hammer and wind the other one in. You will find them both a bit looser from the process but the one that is wound in will be slightly worse.

BTW, at the end of the video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUjNpjPnB5M that newly set pin you see has a big gap between the becket and the first coil...this is not a proper way to tighten a coil. It is not good enough that the coils are together; they must also be up tight against the becket.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 09/05/12 11:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery

The surface of the fine threads on the pin are actually quite course because they are manufactured with a threading die. These are very shallow threads that do not conform to the standard 60 deg Unified Thread profile. These tiny serations will size up the hole a bit if you wind that pin around 30-40 times.

Dear Emmery, I believe that the classic method of hammering repair a pin has established itself as a truly reliable and time-tested. I agree that the gossamer thread of a pin can not increase more friction between metal and wood holes if repair oversize pin to twist. What we need to use the setter is right. However, I admit that the newly resettled pin to hold its gossamer thread, because Slovak man the plays do not sound bad. So as a result of additional frictions screwing as good when he screwed oversize pins in the pinblock
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 09/07/12 12:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Emmery

I use a setter that contacts the top of the pin and does not fix it in place rotationally, but if the pins driven in with 3-4 really solid blows, it turns very little in the process and it does not heat up very much.

Yes,Emmery. Professional technician of piano does it because he knows how to hit the repair pins. He hits and use a setter and he knows what force should be his beats. But if this operation would make an amateur, we can get no good. I would recommend an amateur(beginer) technician of piano to rotation oversize pin use T-bar. To avoid burns wood of the pinblock to do rotational movements are very slow and take a break after each installation of a pin. Then success is guaranteed, I'm hope!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 11/12/12 10:20 AM

Flood. Western Kazakhstan 2011. New life Piano "Petrof" Part #3

I do not understand why you loves on professional music forums. After all, such as insertion of cardboard pinblock is the only way in such circumstances (town Uralsk, no new parts but a piano should be recovered quickly).

И не понимаю, почему вас так не любят на профессиональных форумах. Ведь например, вставка картона в вирбельбанк это единственное средство в таких условиях (Уральск, нет новых деталей, и пианино надо восстановить быстро).
Тимофей Токарев в ответ на TheMaximillyan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDX-84UJqm8
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 12/19/12 10:57 PM

Сегодня пришло письмо благодарности от Антонины. Я настроил её пианино "Аккорд", которое было изготовлено аж в 1963году. Прекрасный строй и держание строя.Я очень тронут. Вот её реплика с Ю-туба:


Antonina Gerelis 10 ч. назад

Hi everybody! I had probs with my piano - pins were unfixed. Maxim_tuner came and fixed them with corrugated cardboard, now my piano " Akkord" sounds like a new one!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZLHrSnWAFw
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 12/23/12 12:24 AM

tonika64
Не надо врать клиенту! Согласен! Но врете Вы, говоря, что таким образом делаете им услугу. Эта услуга медвежья. То, чем Вы занимаетесь, называется шарлатанство. Забивая или вкручивая под вирбель (колок) посторонние предметы, вы нарушаете геометрию отверстия, при чем нагрузки вокруг вирбеля распределяются неравномерно. Вирбельбанк дает трещины, и потом ремонт еще дороже.Это не профессионально.Вы экономите на деталях, чтобы сбить цену за нормалюную профессиональную работу. Вы гробите инструменты.

Today I received an angry comment on my video from professional piano's tuner Ukraine by a professional piano tuner
"Do not lie to the customer! Agree! But you're lying, saying that so do them a favor. This service is bearish. So what you are doing is called fraud. Beating or screwing a virbel (pin), foreign objects, you are breaking the geometry holes to do with the load unevenly distributed around a pin. Pinblock will deads, and then repair more expensive. This is not professional. You are save on details to bring down the price of a normal professional work. Dead pianos is your method . "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi_8mh-AFYA
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 12/23/12 06:53 AM

This topic has run its course now MAX - You just keep saying the same old things that were said a year ago. You carry on doing what you consider the correct thing to do .... and have a merry Christmas.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 12/24/12 01:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
This topic has run its course now MAX - You just keep saying the same old things that were said a year ago. You carry on doing what you consider the correct thing to do .... and have a merry Christmas.

Max would be glad not to write in this thread. But I can see that some of the citizens of the former Soviet countries do not understand the technical aspects of the problem of lose pin and they bombarded angry comments on Maх's clips . I'm just trying to explain to them that the only corrugated shim is panacea in decision the problem. It's always works.
Johnkie,believe me, this topic is not exhausted in the last year. "Everything has just begun!"
With great respect to all technicians our forum, which visited a discussion about the corrugated cardboard shim, Max
Merry Christmas!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 12/31/12 09:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
You just keep saying the same old things that were said a year ago.


Maxim! At the same trouble, but (!) It manifested itself when I moved the German piano JOST from parents from Simferopol (the house was made of limestone and was located near the river Salgir) to the city-hero of Kharkov (Ukrainian-Russian border). Apartment on the 6th floor of a high-rise building, built of foam block. Heating good and dry. And good music in my house sounded before the first heating season. And then, come complete "kapets"(end) whole a tuning. All rassohlos. I remove this pins and they can not be tightened, because they do not care "unscrewed. Now if you are still" in the subject line, "tell me, please, what you used cardboard, and how you: it is screwed onto the pins, or insert a tube into the old holes? Sincerely. Gromyko Igor

22 декабря 2012 в 15:58
Максим! У та же самая беда, НО (!) она проявилась, когда я перевёз немецкое пианино JOST от родителей из Симферополя (дом был сделан из ракушечника и располагался недалеко от реки Салгир) в город-Герой Харьков (граница Украины и России). Квартира на 6-м этаже высотного дома, построенного из пенобетона. Отопление хорошее, сухо. И натуральная музыка в моём доме звучала до первого отопительного сезона. А далее, наступил полный капец всей настройке. Всё рассохлось. Колки выкрутились и их невозможно закрутить, так как они всё равно "развинчиваются. Теперь , если Вы ещё "в теме", подскажите, пож, какой гофрокартон Вы использовали? И как Вы: его накручивали на колки, или вставляли трубочкой в старые отверстия? С уважением. Громыко Игорь Алексеевич
http://shkolazhizni.ru/blog/378772/
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 01/06/13 11:18 AM

Arthur Vereshaka

Silent horror!
Тихий ужас!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-VYv04-KXE&list=PLDD6668CC75A16250&index=3
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 03/02/13 07:46 AM

Ilya Mamedov
я руководствуясь данным видео сделал запресcовку двух нестроющих колков своего пианино. Метод прекрасно работает. Могу рекомендовать его как способ закрепления колков
http://youtu.be/CGk3dS6dKow
Based on this video I set up a shim under two loose pins my upright piano. The method works fine. I can recommend it as a way of fixing
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 04/12/13 05:46 AM

Bass string. Max's shim(fix)online
http://youtu.be/--slQtf7H_c
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 06/16/13 04:35 AM

Today I re-watched video YouTube Sasha5970418
I am very glad for his work. Sasha repaired hospital piano with using cardboard shim.
"If you vidili the state he was!. When I came to (a hospital) here are sunflower seeds, candy wrappers out of a box of juice and many other dirt.
By keeping a diary, I found that recovering of this piano I'd spent 24.5 hours. Most of the work it's repair of hammers. And a time when I deleted grooves from a hammer. A temperament after ten years no one did it. A piano's hammers was "hollowed" is very strong. I'm very pleased - this is what all the pins hold pitch and it's general goal. Thank you very much uncle Max for his help".


Sasha5970418 11 мес. назад
Если бы Вы видили в каком он состоянии был!.Когда я пришел(это больница) в инструменте находились семечки,фантики коробка из под сока и прочие нечистоты.
Ведя дневник,я посчитал, что на востановление этого инструмента ушло 24,5 часа.Большую часть работ заняла шлифовка молотков и темперация(всё-таки десять лет этим никто не занимался,а инструмент "долбили" очень сильно.Кстати,что порадовало - это то,что все колки держали строй и это главное.Спасибо Вам большое д. Максим за Вашу помощь.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 08/06/13 08:18 AM

Jazz pianist Eric tried to set some sort shims on your own piano for pin's tighten . Dear technicians, I bad understand English, so I want to ask your to clarify whether Eric was possible to do this? What is his result with a shim? Is it good or bad?
http://late-to-jazz.blogspot.com/2011/01/day-76-sunday-january-9-more-things-to.html
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 08/06/13 09:23 AM

If he was using the metal shims Max ... it just doesn't work ! They are terrible and he would be better off using sandpaper or your preferred cardboard.
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 08/06/13 09:35 AM

He is using sandpaper shims.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 08/06/13 09:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
If he was using the metal shims Max ... it just doesn't work ! They are terrible and he would be better off using sandpaper or your preferred cardboard.

or your preferred cardboard. It's great!
Thank,Johnkie. About the fact that Erik used the metal shims I'm seen. And it's does not work.
I also realized that he made a tighten using a sandpaper and it is satisfies him . But about the cardboard I did not read anything there
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 08/06/13 10:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
He is using sandpaper shims.

Thank you Mark R,I understood so it. He set sandpaper shims and he turns pin into a pinblock
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 08/18/13 01:12 AM

"Is it possible to patent an invention in Russia?"

It's been 3 years, but the Russian Forum technicians, led by the moderator Alexy have mocking laugh about the cardboard of Max. He ( moderator) even created a topics: "Is it possible to patent an invention in Russia?"
But Max is not discouraged, because he believes in cardboard shim because it's help repair hopeless piano


ALEXY
Скоро будет 5 лет, как я принимаю участие в нашем форуме.
Высказано много интересных мыслей, проходят необычные решения, предложения по конструкциям фортепиано, по восстановлению их, по материалам и орудиям труда.
Некоторые изобретения явно могли быть зафиксированы , как авторская находка.
Кстати , это касается и всех мастеров , работающих на ниве создания, обслуживания и восстановления музыкальных инструментов.
Был ли подобный опыт , вот в чем вопрос


ALEXY
It will soon be five years since I participate in the forum.
Expressed many interesting ideas, are unusual solutions, proposals for repair piano, to restore them, the materials and instruments of labor.
Some inventions can be clearly recorded, as the author's repair.
By the way, this applies to all technicians working in the field of creation, maintenance and repair of musical instruments.
Was this experience, that is the question


Tuner
Алексей!
Это опасный путь, ведь так можно запатентовать закрепление строя шкуркой, бумагой, пластмассой и все, что угодно - поскольку все это "патентно чисто".

Кто будет экспертом, определяющим патентную чистоту? Либо тот, кто ничего не понимает в фортепианном деле и совершенно формально проверяющий иностранные патенты, либо точно такой же "изобретатель", уже засветившийся в патентном бюро и потому ставший "экспертом".

Tuner
Alexy!
This is a dangerous way, is not it can be patented a tighten abrasive cloth, cardboard paper, plastic and any - because everything is "purely patent."


Who is an expert in determining the purity of the patent? Or the one who does not understand anything in a piano case and quite formally validating foreign patents, or exactly the same, the "inventor" is who have blat at the patent office, and therefore become the "expert."


erisipilloid
Вопрос многогранный, но все же.А чего Вы от патента хочите -то? Можно и картон запатентовать, и никакого "чистого" патенства ненужно, как раз за бугром, Вы можете любую ересь запатентовать, и никому до этого дела нет.. Главный вопрос кому нужна эта Ваша ересь?, гофрокартон например? Ответ-никому!


erisipilloid
A multi-faceted issue, but still. And what do you want from a patent ? You can would patent cardboard and there is no "pure" patent is unnecessary as the time abroad. You can patent any heresy here, and nobody no deal .. The big question who needs this your heresy? A corrugated cardboard for example? The answer is none!

http://www.forumklassika.ru/showthread.php?t=96168&s=af98eda330fcac54a33a822fc3263bc9
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 11/17/13 10:09 AM

E.Kalman . The duo Silva and Ephiny from the operetta "Silva "
This upright piano " Belarus " 1972. The fact is that in those years (71-72) in the music factory in Borisov's town were admitted technological marriage fixation of a pins . Was it due to the pins with a special compound coating of zinc, which delete peeled off from it's, and as a result there are some grease pins , which led to the absence of friction between a pin and a hole of a pinblock (bush).May be a hole of a pinblock was done incorrectly a drilling the hole under the pin and a bush, their cross section was big than usual standard . After prolonged use , "Belarus" loose these pins . Hammering pin usually does not lead to positive results. In our case , the tuner has done a sloppy procedure hammering pin . A piano was dead. Owners pianos were delivered before the fact to get rid of the non-working piano. Only thanks to the effort maxim_tuner and his install corrugated cardboard shims under part of the pins the piano again returned to life. Now Max make tuning and we are play music . Kalman sounds convincing and life-affirming sounds of " Silva " joy gives their beauty.
Glory corrugated cardboard which savior defective and ancient piano!
http://youtu.be/cC9dljInZOM
Posted by: Emmery

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 11/17/13 01:57 PM

"..Glory corrugated cardboard which savior defective and ancient piano!"

A word of warning to the cardboard Messiah. Cardboard is very much different from normal writing paper in several ways. It has a courser fibre content and typically contains acids and chemicals which are normally removed from stationary paper.

It became well known with paper documents of the past that they did not last long because the fibers deteriorates and break down due to the high acidity. The recipe for their manufacture was altered so that PH levels were neutralized or even shifted to the alkaline direction. Documents could be preserved longer. This did not happen with cardboard. Most industrial grade cardboard has high acidity and numerous treatment chemicals left in it and could deteriorate over time or effect items which they come into contact with. Not sure what effect this might have on blued tuning pins, but its highly unlikely it would be positive.

There are specialty cardboards available which are ph neutral just like writing paper and Max may want to consider using this
instead. There are also special pens available to test the acidity of paper.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 11/17/13 02:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
"..Glory corrugated cardboard which savior defective and ancient piano!"

A word of warning to the cardboard Messiah. Cardboard is very much different from normal writing paper in several ways. It has a courser fibre content and typically contains acids and chemicals which are normally removed from stationary paper.

It became well known with paper documents of the past that they did not last long because the fibers deteriorates and break down due to the high acidity. The recipe for their manufacture was altered so that PH levels were neutralized or even shifted to the alkaline direction. Documents could be preserved longer. This did not happen with cardboard. Most industrial grade cardboard has high acidity and numerous treatment chemicals left in it and could deteriorate over time or effect items which they come into contact with. Not sure what effect this might have on blued tuning pins, but its highly unlikely it would be positive.

There are specialty cardboards available which are ph neutral just like writing paper and Max may want to consider using this
instead. There are also special pens available to test the acidity of paper.


That is eventual good information.

I would not think of using cardboard to shim tuning pins (I would use wood or even brass foil) but I tune a 1900 grand Steinway with original block and the pins just one size up.

Many pin's hole are "plugged" with 2 carboard shims, some of then even by simple thick paper.
The first times I tuned that piano I thought that the tuning would not hold well, as the feel was really sloppy and lack the wanted firmness. But today after may be 5 tunings, I have one pin that I feel too soft, all the others are firm and the piano, played professionally, exhibit not large loss of pith or the infamous string that doe snot stay put where the pin cannot be set.
This is not corrugated cardboard but standard grey cardboard of unknown quality.

The new firmness is of course due to the pin setting method but the cardboard does not make that impossible as I thought.

Hey if eventually some acidity is corroding the pin inside the block, that could even add some friction don't you think ?

I wonder if parchment would do well for that use.

Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 11/17/13 02:18 PM

It have no much to do with any Messiah, and the value of corrugated cardboard hardly can be proved, as the user does not tune really at a level allowing to hear that the piano hold tuning correctly, we cannot judge the quality of the pin setting and are obliged to trust him.

I tested in a soft woodblock and the feeling with corrugated carboard was not that bad. less bad than I thought. Now how does it stay in time,I dont know. It is also more time consuming, as when using cardboard shims or wooden ones the pin is hammered in the block, not screwed.
Posted by: Emmery

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 11/17/13 02:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Olek
It have no much to do with any Messiah, and the value of corrugated cardboard hardly can be proved, as the user does not tune really at a level allowing to hear that the piano hold tuning correctly, we cannot judge the quality of the pin setting and are obliged to trust him.

I tested in a soft woodblock and the feeling with corrugated carboard was not that bad. less bad than I thought. Now how does it stay in time,I dont know. It is also more time consuming, as when using cardboard shims or wooden ones the pin is hammered in the block, not screwed.


I had used paper and cardboard many years ago and its not bad. I know several oldtimer techs who recommended it with similar results. It is hard to judge how much is too much and I often worried about splitting a block apart farther if it showed a tendancy towards this. I haven't used it in years because for minor/cheaper fixes, CA Glue works well, and for everything else I use over sized pins. The pins are known fixed sizes and with experience you learn to go 1 or 2 sizes over for varying amounts of looseness, sometimes accompanied with some truing up/sizing with a reamer. I find its more foolproof for getting eactly the torque I'm looking for on that pin.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 11/18/13 08:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
"..Glory corrugated cardboard which savior defective and ancient piano!"

A word of warning to the cardboard Messiah. Cardboard is very much different from normal writing paper in several ways. It has a courser fibre content and typically contains acids and chemicals which are normally removed from stationary paper.

It became well known with paper documents of the past that they did not last long because the fibers deteriorates and break down due to the high acidity. The recipe for their manufacture was altered so that PH levels were neutralized or even shifted to the alkaline direction. Documents could be preserved longer. This did not happen with cardboard. Most industrial grade cardboard has high acidity and numerous treatment chemicals left in it and could deteriorate over time or effect items which they come into contact with. Not sure what effect this might have on blued tuning pins, but its highly unlikely it would be positive.

There are specialty cardboards available which are ph neutral just like writing paper and Max may want to consider using this
instead. There are also special pens available to test the acidity of paper.

Dear Emmery, I can not disagree with you. Indeed cardboard manufacturers all world use different chemical compositions. There will be a variety of acidic and alkaline. This can influence bad both the wood and the metal pin. However I do not suppose that this will a significant factor and lead to a negative effect, because it has a small percentage of these substances.
Thanks for your the scientific approach in criticizing Max's cardboard shim.
Sincerely, Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 11/18/13 09:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Emmery
"..Glory corrugated cardboard which savior defective and ancient piano!"

A word of warning to the cardboard Messiah. Cardboard is very much different from normal writing paper in several ways. It has a courser fibre content and typically contains acids and chemicals which are normally removed from stationary paper.

It became well known with paper documents of the past that they did not last long because the fibers deteriorates and break down due to the high acidity. The recipe for their manufacture was altered so that PH levels were neutralized or even shifted to the alkaline direction. Documents could be preserved longer. This did not happen with cardboard. Most industrial grade cardboard has high acidity and numerous treatment chemicals left in it and could deteriorate over time or effect items which they come into contact with. Not sure what effect this might have on blued tuning pins, but its highly unlikely it would be positive.

There are specialty cardboards available which are ph neutral just like writing paper and Max may want to consider using this
instead. There are also special pens available to test the acidity of paper.



Hey if eventually some acidity is corroding the pin inside the block, that could even add some friction don't you think ?


I wonder if parchment would do well for that use.

"that could even add some friction don't you think ?"
I think "YES"
In 14-15 c. its use for repair pin of harpsichord
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 11/18/13 09:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
I tested in a soft woodblock and the feeling with corrugated carboard was not that bad. less bad than I thought. Now how does it stay in time,I dont know. It is also more time consuming, as when using cardboard shims or wooden ones the pin is hammered in the block, not screwed.

Thanks,Isaac
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 11/18/13 09:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Olek
It have no much to do with any Messiah, and the value of corrugated cardboard hardly can be proved, as the user does not tune really at a level allowing to hear that the piano hold tuning correctly, we cannot judge the quality of the pin setting and are obliged to trust him.

I tested in a soft woodblock and the feeling with corrugated carboard was not that bad. less bad than I thought. Now how does it stay in time,I dont know. It is also more time consuming, as when using cardboard shims or wooden ones the pin is hammered in the block, not screwed.


I had used paper and cardboard many years ago and its not bad. I know several oldtimer techs who recommended it with similar results. It is hard to judge how much is too much and I often worried about splitting a block apart farther if it showed a tendancy towards this. I haven't used it in years because for minor/cheaper fixes, CA Glue works well, and for everything else I use over sized pins. The pins are known fixed sizes and with experience you learn to go 1 or 2 sizes over for varying amounts of looseness, sometimes accompanied with some truing up/sizing with a reamer. I find its more foolproof for getting eactly the torque I'm looking for on that pin.

I agree with every your word. Every medal has two sides. Any thing has both a positive and a negative side. Cardboard in the hole still positive, I think
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 11/19/13 01:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Emmery
"..Glory corrugated cardboard which savior defective and ancient piano!"

A word of warning to the cardboard Messiah. Cardboard is very much different from normal writing paper in several ways. It has a courser fibre content and typically contains acids and chemicals which are normally removed from stationary paper.

It became well known with paper documents of the past that they did not last long because the fibers deteriorates and break down due to the high acidity. The recipe for their manufacture was altered so that PH levels were neutralized or even shifted to the alkaline direction. Documents could be preserved longer. This did not happen with cardboard. Most industrial grade cardboard has high acidity and numerous treatment chemicals left in it and could deteriorate over time or effect items which they come into contact with. Not sure what effect this might have on blued tuning pins, but its highly unlikely it would be positive.

There are specialty cardboards available which are ph neutral just like writing paper and Max may want to consider using this
instead. There are also special pens available to test the acidity of paper.


That is eventual good information.

I would not think of using cardboard to shim tuning pins (I would use wood or even brass foil) but I tune a 1900 grand Steinway with original block and the pins just one size up.

Many pin's hole are "plugged" with 2 carboard shims, some of then even by simple thick paper.
The first times I tuned that piano I thought that the tuning would not hold well, as the feel was really sloppy and lack the wanted firmness. But today after may be 5 tunings, I have one pin that I feel too soft, all the others are firm and the piano, played professionally, exhibit not large loss of pith or the infamous string that doe snot stay put where the pin cannot be set.
This is not corrugated cardboard but standard grey cardboard of unknown quality.

The new firmness is of course due to the pin setting method but the cardboard does not make that impossible as I thought.

Hey if eventually some acidity is corroding the pin inside the block, that could even add some friction don't you think ?

I wonder if parchment would do well for that use.


Dear Isaac , I'm with particular trepidation read your message about the 1900 Grand Steinway. I dare to assume that the previous tuner guided my video about to tighten pin with a cardboard shim. Especially nice to read "but today, after maybe 5 tunings , I have one conclusion, which I feel is too soft , the rest of the firm and piano, played professionally ." This proves once again that the cardboard or as you wrote , " but it's not the standard corrugated cardboard gray unknown quality " has the right as a means to tighten pin . The only difference from my installation it's " with 2 cardboard shims simple thick paper " is a pin hole " hammered " here. Some of my followers have written to me that they use a thin cardboard shims less than 2mm . They screwed pin by 2-3 turns , then "plugged " it's. I suppose such an operation possibility , but personally I'm still slowly twist pin with shim to standard height above the plate .
Once again, many thanks for your scientific approach to a theme
Regards, Max
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 11/19/13 06:30 AM

There are 2 strips of cardboard each pin.

The tactile feedback in the lever was poor initially, and the tuning pins not very firm, but now it is more firm, this is due to the tuning technique, the cardboard strips make it possible.

That piano is still in need of repairs.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQV0d1dmZUNFpJeVk/edit?usp=sharing

In France I always have seen the use of wood veener for such repair of the pin. Then some are too tight. Carboard and paper can be used with different thicknesses, that is the case on that piano.

The cardboard repair have been done about 20 years ago, sorry, it was not seeing your videos (To be honest the technicians cannot trust much your results because your unison / tuning are not clean enough, so it does not look much professional.)

It is not enough to have a pin that does not turn back with the wire tension, the notes have to be tuned, also.

Work your tuning, I see no reason you could not learn to do more firm tunings.
best regards

Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 11/19/13 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
There are 2 strips of cardboard each pin.

The tactile feedback in the lever was poor initially, and the tuning pins not very firm, but now it is more firm, this is due to the tuning technique, the cardboard strips make it possible.

That piano is still in need of repairs.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQQWM2Y0R1aHNQOEE/edit?usp=sharing

In France I always have seen the use of wood veener for such repair of the pin. Then some are too tight. Carboard and paper can be used with different thicknesses, that is the case on that piano.

The cardboard repair have been done about 20 years ago, sorry, it was not seeing your videos (To be honest the technicians cannot trust much your results because your unison / tuning are not clean enough, so it does not look much professional.)

It is not enough to have a pin that does not turn back with the wire tension, the notes have to be tuned, also.

Work your tuning, I see no reason you could not learn to do more firm tunings.
best regards


Dear Isaac , thanks for the music that you taped with this piano .I listened and to me it sounds nice and perfectly tuned grand piano.Isaac,good job.I can not believe that cardboard "works here" . The fact that in France the wood veener for such repair of the pin is used correctly. This additional rigidity for each pin . However, I have concerns that the use of wood makes it difficult when rotate the handle of a hammer.
I believe that there is no reason not to believe in a cardboard Max's shim just because " it unison / settings are not clean enough , so it does not look very professional ." Sounds must tuning correctly and Max slowly but surely moving in this direction also . He is full of strength and energy to go on. A install shim this is not a whim of Max, but a vital necessity to restore clunkers piano worldwide.
Regards, Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 11/25/13 07:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Olek
It have no much to do with any Messiah, and the value of corrugated cardboard hardly can be proved, as the user does not tune really at a level allowing to hear that the piano hold tuning correctly, we cannot judge the quality of the pin setting and are obliged to trust him.

I tested in a soft woodblock and the feeling with corrugated carboard was not that bad. less bad than I thought. Now how does it stay in time,I dont know. It is also more time consuming, as when using cardboard shims or wooden ones the pin is hammered in the block, not screwed.


I had used paper and cardboard many years ago and its not bad.


Again an endless stream dirt pours against Max's shim at Russian forum "Classic." For more than two years, as he was expelled and banned all talk about his shim but today moderator closed the theme just because one technician restorer used the method cardboard shim when made refurbishing own piano.
Some extracts the charges members of forum here.
Upright piano W.Hoffmann (1900-1910 years) revivification
Graffity

Modestly 'll put my 5 cents , about the progress of cases. Finally finished glued work. With the bass region had to work hard - there was brutal , pinblock drilled through here was huge deep cracks . I generally pour epoxy into the holes - and she as a black hole how not much flood of a glued all leaked . As a result, in one go is the resin was over a total of 200-300 ml poured there offhand to fill all the gaps , and I suspect that corpus taped together in a couple of places with resin oozed onto the floor.
Oh, and the hole in the bass filled almost to the top and so left - from large cracks resin may leak if pumped her full of holes .
Now I understand that it was possible from the beginning to dissolve liter resin and just pour all that is possible at once. Holes are drilled easily after hardening resin walls do not suffer splitting screwed / unscrewed resin does not adhere to them all as the doctor ordered.
Tomorrow I'll take standart drill 6.5 limiter , in the bass leave "extra " depth of the holes filled with resin.
Tried to twist a pin with cardboard , holds tightly very hard , I'm not ever tuning new pianos , but the effort to turn it's no less than hammering pin downed with slight hints break a pin or a hammer . I hope all crack withstand .

19.11.2013, 07:48 # 74
kraskyun

Welcome Dmitriy. As your repair pinblock business? Interested by your promise,, screwing,, with cardboard or without. You already defined as going to insert a pin in a pinblock? On this subject there is an interesting discussion with MT (Maxim-Tuner) Max, you can read?

19.11.2013, 16:38 #75
Graffity
I want to try the old pins with cardboard, because if you put the new, will have to drill deeper, and I think that the wood should be the minimum impact, given his age and status. Watched all the videos on YouTube Max's shim cardboard and all his acts is convincing. In practice I'm one pin screwed, and a normal flight, as I wrote above. The last couple of days too busy, not to the piano, I hope these days continue

Shuh
Message from Graffity
Watched all the videos on YouTube with Max's cardboard fix
You look nothing???


ALEXY
Message from Graffity
I want to try the old pins with cardboard, because if you put the new, will have to drill deeper, and I think that the wood should be the minimum impact, given his age and status. Watched all the videos on YouTube Max's shim cardboard and all his acts is convincing. In practice I'm one pin screwed, and a normal flight, as I wrote above. The last couple of days too busy, not to the piano, I hope these days continue


Due to the fact that the author of the topic smoothly, after several attempts, went on to discuss the conduct of work in no way connected with the restoration of piano but rather with its destruction, the theme is closed.
http://www.forumklassika.ru/showthread.php?t=97501

http://youtu.be/ZpUIfXI6Jnc
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 01/27/14 12:28 AM

Argentine man wrote me:
thanks ,max, I will register there later.
The trick I told you about loose tuning pins is to use the footwrap technique that you use but using a little strip made of a piece of sandpaper fiber disk. I will make a video of it later. Have you ever heard about that?
Pins just get really tight. It is awesome and I didn't saw it anywhere on the internet. It is a secret that a fellow technician told me. It is awesome. I saved my piano that way. Couldn't tune it even to A=400 and it was a piano from 1890. It is a really cheap solution for people that cannot import oversized tuning pins. It cost me about 4 dollars to tight the entire piano to A=440

Link here: http://youtu.be/yMxJt4E5l7o
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 03/17/14 12:46 AM

3 years ago Max was banned at forum "Classic". But a forum moderator writes about Max as stupid upstart. Who gave him that right?
A controversy starts on a forum especially clearly when someone is not too conscious of itself in the craft or overestimate of itself begins to conduct their own line.
Bright example, corrugated cardboard


#64 17.06.2013, 13:20 ALEXY

http://www.forumklassika.ru/showthread.php?t=93456&page=7
Posted by: Raskaa

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 03/20/14 08:12 AM

Dear Max,

I read your posts about cardboard amd i think that this is not effective.
1) Because this is not for long period and not relible.
2) what is a reason of repairing salvage piano?


Regards,
Akylbek
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 03/20/14 08:27 AM

AKylbek, you should edit your post.

Attacks on the aspect of someone are unacceptable.

ABout the longevity of those shimming process, what we want is gaining resiliency and tightness, from old wood that is soft because the elasticity have migrated from around the pin to father regions.

Possibly the holding is not that long, did yoiu test that ?

Actually if one knows how to stabilize a piano, no need to have extremly tight pins. If they can be braked and set firm enough it works.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 03/20/14 11:57 AM

Here is the Russian forum thread translated to English.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.forumklassika.ru%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D97501


Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 03/22/14 12:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Raskaa
Dear Max,

I read your posts about cardboard amd i think that this is not effective.
1) Because this is not for long period and not relible.
2) what is a reason of repairing salvage piano?


Regards,
Akylbek

Hi,Akylbek
In both your points negative of a relation to the cardboard is the key to a understanding of a problem.
Because a cardboard used for clunker piano. Yes, I agree with the outside it looks barbaric. I'm believe it is not costly and effectively sometimes.
Are you Kazakh man or Kirghiz because your name Akylbek? Now it's method using cardboard shim there are in the former Soviet Union, I know
Regards,Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 03/22/14 12:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek

1 Attacks on the aspect of someone are unacceptable.

2 Possibly the holding is not that long, did yoiu test that ?

3 If they can be braked and set firm enough it works.

Thanks,Isaac.Thank you very much for your view
Regards,Max
Posted by: Olek

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 03/22/14 06:02 AM

many say that the wrap of sanding material on a strong support are efficient "foot wrap" I am unsure of the material used, linen sanding cloth may not be firm enough. polyester back or other nylon are may be the ones.

My thought is we need something hard to reinforce the soft woo that is around the tuning pin in the hole, so the resiliency of the block, locate farther, can became a little active again (the foot wrap being more a transmission between pin an farther wood in the block.
Just a theory. sanding material ((aluminium oxyde, etc) is not compressible.

Some colophon added or a product that help with friction too (why not Max cardboard, if that is the case). could be tested, making a sandwich with one composite that reinforce soft wood,allow the pin to recreate a thread (if any still there on the pin) and one that help with friction (I do not believe that nylon or polyester is that good for friction).

Not sure it will be possible to screw a pin without tearing the sandwich but you may get the idea.

Pins are renewed because of the block wear but also because the thread on the pin disappear in time, new thread are then more efficient (assuming the pin is round -not oval) enough quality, expensive, unfortunately)









Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix - 03/22/14 10:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
could be tested, making a sandwich with one composite that reinforce soft wood,allow the pin to recreate a thread (if any still there on the pin) and one that help with friction (I do not believe that nylon or polyester is that good for friction).

Not sure it will be possible to screw a pin without tearing the sandwich but you may get the idea.

Isaac , if I understood correctly need to do shim-sandwich. Where a shim-sandwich is something soft wood material around a pin, and the outer side to make of a harder material. In theory it is good, but it is necessary to make practical experience. I am afraid that when screwing it, as you write sandwich may be tearing .
But if the hole is huge and has an oval shape, why not to be?