EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it

Posted by: Loren D

EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/25/12 06:57 PM

I like it better then equal temperament. Much better. To me it's just much more musical and makes playing more rewarding.

I was a pianist for decades before I became a tech, and from a musical standpoint, I just like the sound of a well temperament better. I like the key shadings.

It's like playing in color instead of black and white.

Anyway, I've been tuning both for a while now, but for my ear, I'll take EBVT.
Posted by: That Guy

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/25/12 10:39 PM

I've been using it a lot lately and I agree. It seems to make the piano sparkle!
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/25/12 10:52 PM

Yes it does!
Posted by: Tunewerk

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/25/12 11:21 PM

I like JTTPA VI too, and that well-tempered effect you built into it, Loren, is just excellent. It seems to satisfy all my customers. Some talk of a pipe organ effect!

What is this EBVT? Is that a knockoff of JTTPA?

Sorry, had to. wink
Posted by: darrenhee

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/25/12 11:37 PM

may i know what is the EBVT or JTTPA VI ?
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/25/12 11:45 PM

Originally Posted By: darrenhee
may i know what is the EBVT or JTTPA VI ?

Sorry, this is classified information.

Joke.

EBVT is a temperament for piano's developed by Bill Bremmer.
JTTPA VI is some joke from another thread, it is nothing really.

Kees
Posted by: Ryan Hassell

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/25/12 11:54 PM

I agree with you 100% Loren!!!!! I was actually an organ major in college, so I've had training in combining different tone colors as far as the organ goes. When I would have to play a piano, I felt so limited as far as tone colors. Since the first time I tuned my own personal piano in EBVT I found it was much easier to pull emotion from the piano. I love all the colors!!! Also we recently purchased a new Yamaha Grand at the church where I lead the worship. I tune it in EBVT3. This past Sunday, the pianist played an offertory that modulated through about four different keys. I'm sure the congregation could see a smile on my face as she would change keys and one could hear a distinct change in the color and personality. I could not see her music and did not know what key she was playing in, but by the "spice" of the new key could tell she was going from a few sharps or flats to many...and then back again. I might have to see if we recorded that service, might be a good example to post.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 07:04 AM

Ryan, I find F#major to be the "spiciest" (good term, btw!), followed by Ab Major. When tuned correctly, nothing is dissonant.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 07:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
I like JTTPA VI too, and that well-tempered effect you built into it, Loren, is just excellent. It seems to satisfy all my customers. Some talk of a pipe organ effect!

What is this EBVT? Is that a knockoff of JTTPA?

Sorry, had to. wink


Ha! We sure got a lot of mileage out of that gag thread! smile
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 10:06 AM


Finally

You tuner dudes are finally starting to hear what us pianer plunkers have heard fer years!



(Just in good fun)
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 11:21 AM

Thanks Folks,

Believe me, all of these comments are very much appreciated, especially when I have had to read such negative and vitriolic comments for so many years from people who have no experience or foundation in the use of non-equal temperaments. The very idea is disturbing to many people. It couldn't work, wouldn't work and shouldn't be tried!

You should have seen the comments from an engineer who had worked for many years on an ETD that never really got off the ground as a viable device. Of course, he felt that his device was the one and only correct approach! His device read only fundamentals since partials were too variable for him to deal with. If he could just get all of those fundamentals to follow one of those smooth curves he would come up with, the piano would be tuned the best it could be, so he imagined, presumed and insisted.

When the engineer saw the actual numbers from GP's data sheet, from which GP has made so many recordings that he, as a professional musician enjoys and very much approves of, he about flipped! The engineer warned GP not to use them. When I wrote long and careful explanations to him and explained that the figures he saw came from the piano itself, not any theoretical calculations, he mocked and dismissed them as ridiculous. After GP sent him recordings of the piano tuned that way, we never heard from him again. I'll make my own assumption about that: he is still banging his head against the wall and tearing his hair out over the issue.

Helmholtz' theoretical frequencies, the Braide-White book and all of the other tuning books that had been written during the 20th Century along with Isacoff's "Temperament" and his identification of ET as the "final solution" have served to solidify the notion in most people's minds that ET is the one and only way to tune a piano and the foundation for virtually all music. It is simply not true!

During the 19th Century, as temperaments became milder and edged closer to the ET theoretical model, virtually any temperament where all tonalities were useful and accessible, they were considered to be "equal" even though by today's standards they would not be. For authors such as Braide-White and others to deliberately ignore and suppress knowledge about the many temperament ideas that actually worked and were used, in an effort to promote their ET only crusades, the tactic had a quite unintended effect. It caused people to believe that any attempt they made at ET was, in fact, ET.

Many of the technicians who participate in this forum are highly skilled and are among the elite who actually can construct ET aurally. That, I know. However, as I have said many times, my experience in helping people learn to tune and participation in tuning exams has shown me that at least half, if not a majority of professional tuners cannot really tune ET at all! Most depend upon an ETD to do that for them.

Creators of ETD's and the software also worked with ET as a model and of the four people whom I have known personally that created those devices and software, they also firmly believed in ET as the one and only correct way to tune a piano. It was only the demand from a relatively small group of people that they also included a way to tune a piano in some other way.

It has taken the long and slow process of re-introduction of non-equal temperaments to the public, those who actually play the piano and listen to the music produced by those pianos for the inherent beauty found naturally in the Cycle of Fifths to once again captivate people's attention.

Therefore, Ryan, if you do have any recordings of church services, please do post them! If not, please make an effort to make some in the future! We don't usually find many ET recordings posted here other than a few perhaps whose work has been mostly about the perfection of octave stretching techniques. Most commercially produced recordings are presumed to be ET. How would anyone's ET recording be distinguishable from another? Only finer points such as purity of unisons, voicing and regulation issues might arise.

That is the reason why, at least on this Piano Tuner-Technician Forum, we see so many postings of non-equal temperaments. With those, there is at least something to evaluate. From those that have been posted, apparently many people's minds have been changed. So, I say, keep them coming! I would like to see as many non-equal temperament postings as possible. The most revealing will be from ordinary pianists using ordinary pianos. Of course, any public performances would be great too, even though most of those may not be accessible. There are exceptions and those are the ones that would be most welcome.
Posted by: Ryan Hassell

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 04:56 PM

Alright, I'm going to be brave here. I posted a recording of me playing a piano I tuned today at a church. It is a Baldwin Grand, I believe it is an "M" from the mid 1960s. Lots of miles on this piano, but it still has a pretty sound.

I tuned it with Tunelab (iPhone app) with 8:4 octaves in the bass and 4:2 in the treble and the offsets for EBVT 3 layered on top of the tuning curve that Tunelab calculated for that piano.

Please try not to be too harsh, I've never really had one of my tunings critiqued by other tuners, except my mentor of course. :-) It is NOT a professional recording, all I did was set my iPhone on the music rack and record.

I'm interested to know what you all think. The song is "Jesus Keep Me Near the Cross" and was in the key of "F"

http://www.hassellspianotuning.com/recordings

Yes, that is the creak of the pedal at the very end...I guess I need to fix that for them. LOL!

Posted by: Emmery

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 05:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT


Helmholtz' theoretical frequencies, the Braide-White book and all of the other tuning books that had been written during the 20th Century along with Isacoff's "Temperament" and his identification of ET as the "final solution" have served to solidify the notion in most people's minds that ET is the one and only way to tune a piano and the foundation for virtually all music. It is simply not true!


You seem to forget the fact that 99.9% of people who have come to accept ET as the final solution also had ears, they didn't just go on a website, read a few favourable ET pitches from what most folks see as marketing stooges, and call it "final".
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

During the 19th Century, as temperaments became milder and edged closer to the ET theoretical model, virtually any temperament where all tonalities were useful and accessible, they were considered to be "equal" even though by today's standards they would not be.


This is a supposition, not fact. I have not seen any proclomation from any tuner, or read from any book that any temperament other than ET is "equal". You can't change math and physics of sound on strings.

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

For authors such as Braide-White and others to deliberately ignore and suppress knowledge about the many temperament ideas that actually worked and were used, in an effort to promote their ET only crusades, the tactic had a quite unintended effect. It caused people to believe that any attempt they made at ET was, in fact, ET.


It was not a tactic Bill. Its reality. They preferred to stay within the confines of what the maximum allowable stretch for an octave is....and 99% of tuners still follow this. Stretching an octave to get the intervals more pure is not a brainchild invention, even Pythagorus was aware of it 500 years BC. Its just nobody has had the gall to try and re-define what "acceptable" is...that is untill now.

Also, you are the only person on the internet preaching that the majority of ET tunings are reverse well. For many people like myself who were initially trained by proffesionals, the topic of reverse well was introduced very early on and we were instructed exactly how to avoid it. I am not sure why you are so naive to think that the majority of tuners are not aware of reverse well. I am not sure why you would assume that those ETD only or hybrid tuners would deliberately sabotage their temperament aurally to reverse well. The ETD's certainly are not programmed to produce it.

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Many of the technicians who participate in this forum are highly skilled and are among the elite who actually can construct ET aurally. That, I know. However, as I have said many times, my experience in helping people learn to tune and participation in tuning exams has shown me that at least half, if not a majority of professional tuners cannot really tune ET at all! Most depend upon an ETD to do that for them.


In many peoples view, this just simply means that you attract these types of techs around you. I guess that sucks. My experiences and other techs I talk to, disagree with your assertations. We all have experienced following up behind other techs. Your stats are highly dubious. I can say with pretty strong certainty that at least half the techs out there in North America have ETD's, and this by default means they are not tuning reverse well. If the possible other half (aural only)are all tuning reverse well, you must be in a different dimension.

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Creators of ETD's and the software also worked with ET as a model and of the four people whom I have known personally that created those devices and software, they also firmly believed in ET as the one and only correct way to tune a piano. It was only the demand from a relatively small group of people that they also included a way to tune a piano in some other way.

Not sure what your point is Bill. I highly doubt we will have an ETD out there with a historical temperament as the default setting. This just isn't going to happen.
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

It has taken the long and slow process of re-introduction of non-equal temperaments to the public, those who actually play the piano and listen to the music produced by those pianos for the inherent beauty found naturally in the Cycle of Fifths to once again captivate people's attention.


That is until they play a B and an f# together...then they look for music without that interval to play, or come to accept a 5th that beats more than twice as fast as a fourth does in ET.


Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

...That is the reason why, at least on this Piano Tuner-Technician Forum, we see so many postings of non-equal temperaments. With those, there is at least something to evaluate...


It is also the reason why many high caliber tuners who used to frequent here, no longer do. The sites they do frequent, contain no discussions of the non ET malarky I often see here.

I have not had a single person who has listened to any of the recordings here differentiate between which ones are ET and not. Fellow techs I've talked to, have found the same thing. I have two identical pianos in my living room with one of them tuned ET and the other to EBVT3. Piano teachers, several musicians/composers and numerous music afficiandos cannot tell which ones which. They mostly feel that they are both ET but the EBVT3 one sounds poorly tuned and "somewhat strange". Its ludicrous to think lesser informed people have the capacity to differentiate on notes that are altered by fractions of a cent and pick up on it in a musical context with any real idea of whats going on.

Bill, please don't imply here that some snowball effect is happening with EBVT. All the postings and musings in this forum alone come from the same few cohorts as they originally did.

A good temperament that effectively helps convey music, stands on its own and needs no town cryers suggesting its usefullness. This is how ET got established to where it is now. The public spoke and the public validated it. If something better comes along, it should be able to find its viability on its own merits, not smoke and mirrors recordings, marketing hype from a few followers...and last but not least, ludicrous ascertations that the majority of tuners are not actually tuning ET.

Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 05:34 PM

Your Emmeryness,

Please go rant in some other thread. Please address your people without ears and hold a solemn service in pythagorean ritual to continue your blabbering.
Posted by: Emmery

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 05:50 PM

Marty, pick up a tuning hammer, tune a few thousand pianos, and then come back here with your profile adjusted to reflect that which you presently don't have. Then preach to the tuners on what they should or should not be doing. My comments relate to the quotes and it is an "A" and "B" discussion....why don't you "C" your way out of it if you have nothing other than insults to add.


Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 06:07 PM

Your's is not a discussion. I don't need to tune a single thing to read and understand that you merely want to badger Mr. Bremmer. This thread is to appreciate EBVT and not to berate it.

It is you who should hike your way out.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 07:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Ryan Hassell
Alright, I'm going to be brave here. I posted a recording of me playing a piano I tuned today at a church. It is a Baldwin Grand, I believe it is an "M" from the mid 1960s. Lots of miles on this piano, but it still has a pretty sound.

I tuned it with Tunelab (iPhone app) with 8:4 octaves in the bass and 4:2 in the treble and the offsets for EBVT 3 layered on top of the tuning curve that Tunelab calculated for that piano.

Please try not to be too harsh, I've never really had one of my tunings critiqued by other tuners, except my mentor of course. :-) It is NOT a professional recording, all I did was set my iPhone on the music rack and record.

I'm interested to know what you all think. The song is "Jesus Keep Me Near the Cross" and was in the key of "F"

http://www.hassellspianotuning.com/recordings

Yes, that is the creak of the pedal at the very end...I guess I need to fix that for them. LOL!



Ryan, do you have a Soundcloud account? It's free, and it's an easy way to share audio. You just upload and then you can share or embed a link. Of course, you can do it the way you did this too, but some people probably won't download.

F is one of my favorite keys, and it's a really smooth key in EBVT. As for judging the tuning, don't worry; audio recordings from our cell phones make it very hard to really critique a tuning since the recordings aren't the greatest.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 07:24 PM

I ran some test chords this morning on a Kimball console I was tuning. Just a little Am-F-C-G-Dm-F-C progression with a short 1-octave broken chord at the end. Really smoothed out this instrument.

http://soundcloud.com/ldigiorgi/test-chords-in-equal-beating

And yes, you heard middle C bobble at the end. I fixed that. smile
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 07:29 PM

I still say that 95% of the general music listening public (maybe more) don't even know what a temperament is. They hear music.

When we're called to tune their piano, they expect that the piano that sounded bad will sound good after we're done. Sometimes after it's done, they say that it's never sounded so good, etc.

Point being, our job is to make the piano sound the best it can. I think that's what matter to the customer, not some scientific explanation of why their ears should hear this over that.

All tuners personalize their tunings in some way, ET or not. Stretch techniques vary, some tune different size octaves, some slightly modify temperaments to satisfy their tastes for 5ths or 3rds, etc.

I want the piano to sound the best it can sound. Sometimes ET fits the bill, other times it doesn't. Overall though, I still like the sound of EBVT over ET.
Posted by: Emmery

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 07:58 PM

Marty, the threads are for discussion...not for parroting blind accolades on a temperament 99.9% of tuners don't care about, or tune.

On the forums' title page directly under the Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum heading it says....

For Piano Tuner-Technicians and for posting technical questions.

Because of this forum criteria, I feel less out place here than you should be feeling Marty. I certainly feel less out of place than the same handful of non techs who come here and use up bandwidth to post countless recordings.

If the purpose of the recordings are to highlight the non ET, than I highly suspect the key choice favours the better intervals and avoids the worse ones. The less informed public should be aware that if you adjust ET in a way that favours some intervals as being more just, THERE IS A COUNTERBALANCE OF REMAINING INTERVALS THAT WILL STAND OUT WORSE COMPARATIVELY. This is why ET rules.

I don't really care if a very small amount of B.B. followers tune non-ET. They are certainly not around my area. In fact, I've tuned EBVT3 last week for a client....because the client was curious and wanted to check it out. Its not my job to dictate taste when rendering a tuning nor am I insulted if a clients taste in temperament differs from my own. EBVT and its variants sit in a file on my ETD called "user temperaments" along side of 20 or so historical temperaments that rarely get used. Now if that client points out that B and F# played together beats twice as fast as a fourth normally does in ET and really stands out, I'll just mention not to play those notes, or use ET instead...LOL
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 08:18 PM

I started a thread saying I like EBVT, because to me it's like switching from black-and-white to color. I'll take the differences in keys over the blandness of ET. It's not a big deal, really.

As I mentioned in an earlier reply, most of the piano tuning public hasn't a clue what a temperament is. They do know, however, if their piano sounds good or bad. I would guess that a bad tuning is a bad tuning regardless of the temperament.

Anyway Emmery, you don't like EBVT, and that's cool. Others like it and that's cool, too. Cool? smile

After all, I started this thread because *I* like EBVT.
Posted by: Phil D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 08:44 PM

You mean you didn't start another thread evangelising EBVT because you wanted to promote discussion and therefore another argument about EBVT?
Are you sure?

Did you examine your motives before you posted?

This forum is getting seriously bogged down in partisanship.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 08:48 PM

No motive other than I like the sound of a good well temperament. smile
Posted by: Cinnamonbear

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 09:19 PM

Oh, boy!!! Recordings!!! laugh

Loren, I saw this thread right when you started it, and I held back. But I thought for a moment that if I was quick, mine could be the first response, and I was going to post, "Me three" (instead of "Me too!"). Now, it looks like I would need to post, "Me five."

O.K., guys, I pretty much hid my "Haddorff Postcard" series from you in Pianist Corner when I did it, because I didn't want to have my head handed to me on a platter over here in the Tuner/Tech forum. But now that I know a little better what is what...

Here is a song I did two years ago, shortly after acquiring my 1903 Haddorff 56" upright. At the time, it was tuned to the RBFT (Randomly Beating Frontier Temperament), and I was looking forward to the day when it would be tuned to EBVT III (as expressed in the second (last) verse of the song). I was not as practiced a singer as I became by the time I posted "Jer's Piano Shop Song," so it's a little rough to the ears in all respects, but I hope you can appreciate it. It goes: Intro, Vamp, Song:

"I Love Her" (Simon/Gensler, 1927) with new lyrics

Below is the link to the original post, with the skit that accompanied the song.

Haddorff Postcard No. 2 with "I Love Her"

Let me know by PM if you want to hear the whole series. It went to No. 9. Some are funnier than others, but I still get a chuckle out of "Piano Tuning Made Easy."

Ryan--thanks for posting your recording! I'm not sure how to judge the tuning, yet, but my first thought was, "Hmm. Sounds like a Baldwin." grin

--Andy
Posted by: Ryan Hassell

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 09:29 PM

"Randomly Beating Frontier Temperament"!!!!! That's funny stuff right there!!! LOL!!!!!!
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 09:41 PM

Emmery, I think it's on topic for non-technicians to post their opinion on EBVT and ET. Their opinion is more relevant that PT's opinions. After all a PT tunes for the customer which is a musician, without being a musician hirself usually.

The fact that for a client you tuned on request EBVT (which you have a (possibly undeserved) reputation of hating intensely) is very surprising to me (and I think to many readers) and puts you on moral high ground in my opinion. On the same level as Bill Bremmer who tunes ET when requested specifically.

I would also really like to know what musicians like: ET? EBVT? Bach-Lehmann? DoelKees13?

I regularly tune for a semi-retired concert pianist and she is always happy and doesn't seem to notice any difference between ET and UT tunings. I tell her I didn't tune ET but I just get a blank look. Maybe I should try 1/3' meantone one day.

Just some friendly thoughts.

Kees
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 09:43 PM

Hey, what's DoelKees13? If you have the sequence, I'd like to try it. smile Is it anything like JTTPA XXXIV?
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 09:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Loren D
Hey, what's DoelKees13? If you have the sequence, I'd like to try it. smile Is it anything like JTTPA XXXIV?

The offsets are below. It based on a 1/13' interpretation of Bach's scribble, in a different order than Lehman. There is a prominent harpischordist player that has independently arrived at the same temperament.

C 4.96
C# 0.60
D 1.65
D# 2.71
E -1.65
F 6.62
F# 0.45
G 3.31
G# 0.75
A 0.00
A# 4.66
B 0.30

Kees
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 09:55 PM

Ah, I see now why I couldn't get it to work. I had G# at 0.76 instead of .75.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 10:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Loren D
Ah, I see now why I couldn't get it to work. I had G# at 0.76 instead of .75.

Don't worry, a typical beginners error. Just balance the smoothness of the inharmonicity with the solidness of the unisons and make sure that you hold the tuning hammer with your hand, not with your foot. Just tweak the string tension paying attention to the soundboard and make sure your s factor is 1.29382983723479.

Seriously, it's a very nice temperament.

Kees
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 10:12 PM

Kees

Is your temperament in USD or CAD?
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 10:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT


Helmholtz' theoretical frequencies, the Braide-White book and all of the other tuning books that had been written during the 20th Century along with Isacoff's "Temperament" and his identification of ET as the "final solution" have served to solidify the notion in most people's minds that ET is the one and only way to tune a piano and the foundation for virtually all music. It is simply not true!


You seem to forget the fact that 99.9% of people who have come to accept ET as the final solution also had ears, they didn't just go on a website, read a few favourable ET pitches from what most folks see as marketing stooges, and call it "final".
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

During the 19th Century, as temperaments became milder and edged closer to the ET theoretical model, virtually any temperament where all tonalities were useful and accessible, they were considered to be "equal" even though by today's standards they would not be.


This is a supposition, not fact. I have not seen any proclomation from any tuner, or read from any book that any temperament other than ET is "equal". You can't change math and physics of sound on strings.

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

For authors such as Braide-White and others to deliberately ignore and suppress knowledge about the many temperament ideas that actually worked and were used, in an effort to promote their ET only crusades, the tactic had a quite unintended effect. It caused people to believe that any attempt they made at ET was, in fact, ET.


It was not a tactic Bill. Its reality. They preferred to stay within the confines of what the maximum allowable stretch for an octave is....and 99% of tuners still follow this. Stretching an octave to get the intervals more pure is not a brainchild invention, even Pythagorus was aware of it 500 years BC. Its just nobody has had the gall to try and re-define what "acceptable" is...that is untill now.

Also, you are the only person on the internet preaching that the majority of ET tunings are reverse well. For many people like myself who were initially trained by proffesionals, the topic of reverse well was introduced very early on and we were instructed exactly how to avoid it. I am not sure why you are so naive to think that the majority of tuners are not aware of reverse well. I am not sure why you would assume that those ETD only or hybrid tuners would deliberately sabotage their temperament aurally to reverse well. The ETD's certainly are not programmed to produce it.

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Many of the technicians who participate in this forum are highly skilled and are among the elite who actually can construct ET aurally. That, I know. However, as I have said many times, my experience in helping people learn to tune and participation in tuning exams has shown me that at least half, if not a majority of professional tuners cannot really tune ET at all! Most depend upon an ETD to do that for them.


In many peoples view, this just simply means that you attract these types of techs around you. I guess that sucks. My experiences and other techs I talk to, disagree with your assertations. We all have experienced following up behind other techs. Your stats are highly dubious. I can say with pretty strong certainty that at least half the techs out there in North America have ETD's, and this by default means they are not tuning reverse well. If the possible other half (aural only)are all tuning reverse well, you must be in a different dimension.

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Creators of ETD's and the software also worked with ET as a model and of the four people whom I have known personally that created those devices and software, they also firmly believed in ET as the one and only correct way to tune a piano. It was only the demand from a relatively small group of people that they also included a way to tune a piano in some other way.

Not sure what your point is Bill. I highly doubt we will have an ETD out there with a historical temperament as the default setting. This just isn't going to happen.
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

It has taken the long and slow process of re-introduction of non-equal temperaments to the public, those who actually play the piano and listen to the music produced by those pianos for the inherent beauty found naturally in the Cycle of Fifths to once again captivate people's attention.


That is until they play a B and an f# together...then they look for music without that interval to play, or come to accept a 5th that beats more than twice as fast as a fourth does in ET.


Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

...That is the reason why, at least on this Piano Tuner-Technician Forum, we see so many postings of non-equal temperaments. With those, there is at least something to evaluate...


It is also the reason why many high caliber tuners who used to frequent here, no longer do. The sites they do frequent, contain no discussions of the non ET malarky I often see here.

I have not had a single person who has listened to any of the recordings here differentiate between which ones are ET and not. Fellow techs I've talked to, have found the same thing. I have two identical pianos in my living room with one of them tuned ET and the other to EBVT3. Piano teachers, several musicians/composers and numerous music afficiandos cannot tell which ones which. They mostly feel that they are both ET but the EBVT3 one sounds poorly tuned and "somewhat strange". Its ludicrous to think lesser informed people have the capacity to differentiate on notes that are altered by fractions of a cent and pick up on it in a musical context with any real idea of whats going on.

Bill, please don't imply here that some snowball effect is happening with EBVT. All the postings and musings in this forum alone come from the same few cohorts as they originally did.

A good temperament that effectively helps convey music, stands on its own and needs no town cryers suggesting its usefullness. This is how ET got established to where it is now. The public spoke and the public validated it. If something better comes along, it should be able to find its viability on its own merits, not smoke and mirrors recordings, marketing hype from a few followers...and last but not least, ludicrous ascertations that the majority of tuners are not actually tuning ET.



Thank you for continuing to offer free advertising for my business.
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 10:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Ryan Hassell
"Randomly Beating Frontier Temperament"!!!!! That's funny stuff right there!!! LOL!!!!!!


LOL, I saw on one thread where it must have been a pianist who wondered what ET and EBVT meant. I don't know if anyone answered him but I was tempted to make a joke of it too but decided not to.

Anyway, if you simply Google EBVT, somewhere down the list, you get an Acronym definition. I was tempted to say this:

ET = Extra Terrestrial

EBVT = Exterior Ballistic Verification Projectile

Oddly enough, I think those two definitions actually apply!
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 10:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Ryan Hassell
Alright, I'm going to be brave here. I posted a recording of me playing a piano I tuned today at a church. It is a Baldwin Grand, I believe it is an "M" from the mid 1960s. Lots of miles on this piano, but it still has a pretty sound.

I tuned it with Tunelab (iPhone app) with 8:4 octaves in the bass and 4:2 in the treble and the offsets for EBVT 3 layered on top of the tuning curve that Tunelab calculated for that piano.

Please try not to be too harsh, I've never really had one of my tunings critiqued by other tuners, except my mentor of course. :-) It is NOT a professional recording, all I did was set my iPhone on the music rack and record.

I'm interested to know what you all think. The song is "Jesus Keep Me Near the Cross" and was in the key of "F"

http://www.hassellspianotuning.com/recordings

Yes, that is the creak of the pedal at the very end...I guess I need to fix that for them. LOL!



Thanks Ryan,

I certainly did enjoy that. I would much rather hear that than the Reverse Well that I heard at my niece's church in Los Angeles the last time I was there.
Posted by: Ryan Hassell

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 10:32 PM

Bill,

Was it even close to the way you tune the EBVT3? I have always really liked the sound, but have always wondered if I'm even close to the way you tune it.
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 10:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Ryan Hassell
Bill,

Was it even close to the way you tune the EBVT3? I have always really liked the sound, but have always wondered if I'm even close to the way you tune it.


Ryan, since you asked for my opinion, yes, I do recognize the distinct key of F in your recording. However, I think the unisons could use improvement. They are really the hardest to perfect, so don't take that comment too harshly. I don't really know the piano you are working on but some Baldwins can be very difficult to make sound really clean as far as unisons go. Keep in mind that what I just said was what Kamin said about Andy's piano. I can't make that piano have clean sounding unisons no matter what I do!

I did hear a really nice sounding high treble at the end. I encourage you to keep working on it and post some more recordings, for sure.
Posted by: Ryan Hassell

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 10:45 PM

Thanks Bill!
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 10:47 PM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Hey, what's DoelKees13? If you have the sequence, I'd like to try it. smile Is it anything like JTTPA XXXIV?

The offsets are below. It based on a 1/13' interpretation of Bach's scribble, in a different order than Lehman. There is a prominent harpischordist player that has independently arrived at the same temperament.

C 4.96
C# 0.60
D 1.65
D# 2.71
E -1.65
F 6.62
F# 0.45
G 3.31
G# 0.75
A 0.00
A# 4.66
B 0.30

Kees


Kees, have you got a graph from Jason Kanter on this yet? If not, I would encourage it. If so, please post it. I would love to see it. Better yet, post your temperament and the Lehman side by side. That should be interesting.
Posted by: beethoven986

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 10:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
I don't really know the piano you are working on but some Baldwins can be very difficult to make sound really clean as far as unisons go.


Definitely true! Mine has A LOT of false beats, which I blame on the person who rebuilt it. It bothers me to the point that it will become my first bridge recapping/restringing job when I have the funds (and space) to spare. Baldwin bridge pinning can also be pretty sloppy from the factory, from what I've seen.


Completely unrelated, though.... Bill, one of the recordings on your website is incorrectly labeled as Brahms (in the Ampico section); it is a Schubert impromptu smile
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 11:02 PM

Originally Posted By: beethoven986


Completely unrelated, though.... Bill, one of the recordings on your website is incorrectly labeled as Brahms (in the Ampico section); it is a Schubert impromptu smile


Thanks for the heads up. I don't have any direct control over what is posted on there. It does need to be updated but I really have not have time to do anything about it for about a year now.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 11:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Hey, what's DoelKees13? If you have the sequence, I'd like to try it. smile Is it anything like JTTPA XXXIV?

The offsets are below. It based on a 1/13' interpretation of Bach's scribble, in a different order than Lehman. There is a prominent harpischordist player that has independently arrived at the same temperament.

C 4.96
C# 0.60
D 1.65
D# 2.71
E -1.65
F 6.62
F# 0.45
G 3.31
G# 0.75
A 0.00
A# 4.66
B 0.30

Kees


Kees, have you got a graph from Jason Kanter on this yet? If not, I would encourage it. If so, please post it. I would love to see it. Better yet, post your temperament and the Lehman side by side. That should be interesting.

No. Basically it's like Bach-Lehmann but in BL the worst key is E major, which I don't like. In this scheme C# major is the worst key which makes more sense.

I like the temperament, but for F minor the Lehman tuning is better. I think Bach intended it to be read two ways, depending on the music you play. But I have no proof of this whatsoever.

As as side note, the "Bach organ" in Leipzig Germany (where Bach was Cantor) is tuned almost like this.

Kees
Posted by: Cinnamonbear

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/26/12 11:26 PM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Hey, what's DoelKees13? If you have the sequence, I'd like to try it. smile Is it anything like JTTPA XXXIV?

The offsets are below. It based on a 1/13' interpretation of Bach's scribble, in a different order than Lehman. There is a prominent harpischordist player that has independently arrived at the same temperament.

C 4.96
C# 0.60
D 1.65
D# 2.71
E -1.65
F 6.62
F# 0.45
G 3.31
G# 0.75
A 0.00
A# 4.66
B 0.30

Kees


Kees,

I just want you to know that a harpsichord is coming my way later this summer, at which time I will happily try your temperament 13 (and others!). At one point, when my dad walked the earth, he built it from a kit with one of his piano students (whose dad was a harpsichord builder), and it has been in storage by a friend of mine for a number of years, now. My wife says, "No more pianos come into the house until an equal number of pianos go out of the house." I say, "It's not a piano!" grin

--Andy
Posted by: beethoven986

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 12:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: beethoven986


Completely unrelated, though.... Bill, one of the recordings on your website is incorrectly labeled as Brahms (in the Ampico section); it is a Schubert impromptu smile


Thanks for the heads up. I don't have any direct control over what is posted on there. It does need to be updated but I really have not have time to do anything about it for about a year now.


I hear ya! Since it seems like I'm being forced into self-employment (And I do mean forced. I want to work for a shop, but with this economy....), I'm building a website, and it's a pain.
Posted by: Cinnamonbear

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 12:33 AM

Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: beethoven986


Completely unrelated, though.... Bill, one of the recordings on your website is incorrectly labeled as Brahms (in the Ampico section); it is a Schubert impromptu smile


Thanks for the heads up. I don't have any direct control over what is posted on there. It does need to be updated but I really have not have time to do anything about it for about a year now.


I hear ya! Since it seems like I'm being forced into self-employment (And I do mean forced. I want to work for a shop, but with this economy....), I'm building a website, and it's a pain.


Self-employment has its advantages, B9! Every day is a faith proposition, to be sure, but guess what? Do a good job for one fussy customer, and your phone will continue to ring. All the best to you as you make your way!!!
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 07:03 AM

I love being self-employed! 2014 will be 30 years, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 07:28 AM

I'd like to add two cents to this thread.

1) Loren, I'm glad you like EBVT III. I've tried to tune it - albeit on a harpsichord. I followed Bill's instructions as closely I could, even e-mailed him directly about my problems, but in the end I lost a long battle to get Ab maj. and F# maj. to sound at all pleasant to me. (Subsequently, another forum member wrote to me that the G#-C M3 is difficult to keep from going too wide.) According to you,

Quote:
When tuned correctly, nothing is dissonant.


That either means I did something incorrectly (although each step checked out with Bill's instructions and supplementary tips), or is it perhaps conceivable that your statement is a bit too absolute, because different people have have different concepts of consonance and dissonance?

2) About the partisanship Phil mentioned: Bill may see all of this as "advertisement", but for beginners who are eager to learn from everyone, this is very unfortunate. It appears that any contrary opinion or critique, clearly and systematically as it may be presented, will immediately be seen as a personal affront. (In fact I'm already worried because I've just said I found the "spicy" keys unpleasant.)
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 07:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
I'd like to add two cents to this thread.

1) Loren, I'm glad you like EBVT III. I've tried to tune it - albeit on a harpsichord. I followed Bill's instructions as closely I could, even e-mailed him directly about my problems, but in the end I lost a long battle to get Ab maj. and F# maj. to sound at all pleasant to me. (Subsequently, another forum member wrote to me that the G#-C M3 is difficult to keep from going too wide.) According to you,

Quote:
When tuned correctly, nothing is dissonant.


That either means I did something incorrectly (although each step checked out with Bill's instructions and supplementary tips), or is it perhaps conceivable that your statement is a bit too absolute, because different people have have different concepts of consonance and dissonance?



I'd say it's either the latter or perhaps a combination of both? Whether something is dissonant or not is certainly going to be subjective, so it's possible we just have different degrees of tolerance in what we call dissonant.

That said though, you are absolutely correct that Ab and F# are the standout keys; I've noticed that also and may have even mentioned it earlier in the thread (or a different thread).

Per my ear, I've not heard them sounding "wrong," though. Certainly opinions on that will come into play though from listener to listener.
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 09:28 AM

The A-flat Major and F# Major M3's in the EBVT III are both 16 cents wide. That is only 2 cents wider than they are in ET. They would, of course be wider than ET in any Well Temperament. Therefore, in Mark's case, I believe that either he must somehow be making them wider than they should be or even a mere 2 cents is wider than he can tolerate.

I developed the EBVT entirely by ear, using my own sense of what would be either too wide or not wide enough for M3's for what I deemed the "contemporary ear" to be able to tolerate. Certainly, there are a very few people who are so attuned and sensitive to ET that the very slightest departure from it sounds "wrong" to them. However, given what I know about the kinds of errors that most aural tuners can make, a 2 cent error in a M3 would certainly be within the range of errors that many aural tuners would make.
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 12:02 PM

I find it funny that one person says 99.9 % of tuners don't like EBVT III etc., yet, 99.9% of the people AND tuners in this thread and others, DO like it and "we" do use it. grin
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 12:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
I find it funny that one person says 99.9 % of tuners don't like EBVT III etc., yet, 99.9% of the people AND tuners in this thread and others, DO like it and "we" do use it. grin


Not much in the way of a yardstick for measurement; a few members of an obscure forum in one corner of the planet. What is the total maybe 50-100 people?

Even 5 thousand would still be too small a sample worldwide to make any significance in numbers.
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 12:27 PM

Obscure? hardly...

Well, then, let's use the yardstick of people that I know personally that do use it and do like it. Including techs and pianists. The number of people that like it and do use it, is a lot more and it is catching on rather quickly.

Let's also use the yardstick of people that know of other techs that personally use or prefer EBVT III as well... That too, will be a much larger yardstick or number.

If there were 10,000 piano tuners world wide and 2,000 of them liked it, and/or used it, then that becomes 80/20. Either way, I believe, the number of users and "likes" is much, much, lower than 99.9 %.

Attend a PTG convention and ask once.... The difference may surprise you. It did me.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 12:47 PM

This is a pretty obscure forum Jerry. 300 million in the US and 35 million in Canada which makes up most of North America. And this is not counting the population of Europe which would drive the percentages down even farther….….

How many members in this place? Maybe 60-70 thousand now? What is that percentage out of the entire population of the planet? An even less percentage wants this kind of tuning?

From what I see here only a very small percentage of people know or want this kind of abstracted tuning in their life.

Attending a PTG convention and asking a question such as this is not a good representation for any kind of in- depth survey.

I wouldn’t spend the time to even ask as this issue is of little importance to me, and further, I can see it is of little importance to many, as we can all witness very few in the way of PW members participating in these continual threads about one particular way of tuning.

Have fun with your numbers. Of all the things to do and accomplish in life this is not very important.

But any way you see it is just fine with me.

Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 01:05 PM

If it is not very important, they why do you always dispute me in such matters as this?
It is my opinion and it is also what I see and what I have learned from other tuners as well. Where does Emmery get his 99.9 % number? There is no such number.

I am simply pointing out that the figure of 99.9 % is inaccurate. Nobody knows the numbers for sure. But, we do know that more and more people are using it.

Asking other tuners is most certainly a viable answer as to how many other tuners use it and/or, what they do use. We are the ones using or, not using it and a PTG convention where you may have around 1,000 tuners there, is an excellent place to ask this question.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 01:27 PM

I'm just an outside observor of this debate, and while it is perhaps being conducted in "an obscure forum in one corner of the planet," that forum seems pretty popular among piano enthusiasts from around the world.

Anyway, on one hand appear to be those who say, "we've tried EBVT and we really, really like it." On the other hand are those who seem to say, "EBVT is wrong and shouldn't be tried."

If it's all the same to you folks, I think I'll try it myself and make up my own mind.

Bill, your critics have gotten you another customer.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 01:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
If it is not very important, they why do you always dispute me in such matters as this?
It is my opinion and it is also what I see and what I have learned from other tuners as well. Where does Emmery get his 99.9 % number? There is no such number.

I am simply pointing out that the figure of 99.9 % is inaccurate. Nobody knows the numbers for sure. But, we do know that more and more people are using it.

Asking other tuners is most certainly a viable answer as to how many other tuners use it and/or, what they do use. We are the ones using or, not using it and a PTG convention where you may have around 1,000 tuners there, is an excellent place to ask this question.



I find it very interesting that when you post an opinion it is your opinion. Then if Emmery or myself post a rebuttal opinion it is considered a dispute or badgering.

Do you see the partisanship there that Phil mentioned on the last page?

Are we not having a discussion with differing points of view?
Using your thought process and your suggestion to attend and complete an in depth survey at the PTG convention thing then I should attend a beer convention in Bavaria and say;

“Hey guys I just invented a new kind of beer. Want to try?”
Would any of the beer makers say no? I wouldn’t think so.

It is the same as going to a piano tuner convention and saying ;

"Hey I have a new temperament. Wanna try?" Of course they are going to be interested. But that does not translate into the new sequence becoming rapidly popular amongst the general public.

Your thinking is flawed there. But once again no-one is denying your enthusiasm for something you like.

You just cannot deny anyone else their opinion of the matter.

As I stated previously in the scheme of life, this is not a burning issue for most people.

Posted by: Ed Foote

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 02:36 PM

>>How many members in this place? Maybe 60-70 thousand now? What is that percentage out of the entire population of the planet? An even less percentage wants this kind of tuning?
From what I see here only a very small percentage of people know or want this kind of abstracted tuning in their life.<<

Greetings,
Well, you see a very different world than I do. It is a bit strawish to start including the world population in the sample of which the temperament debate is applicable. How about just the piano playing public? Total them up if you like, but I prefer to take percentages of local users.

I can only describe what I experience, and that is the majority of my customers have left ET behind. The majority of the new customers either ask about the "difference" they have heard about my tuning or don't care about anything beyond octaves and unisons. There is an increasingly widespread use of these temperaments, and all the modern, programmable machines have gone to some effort to serve that population of tuners.
>>I wouldn’t spend the time to even ask as this issue is of little importance to me, and further, I can see it is of little importance to many, as we can all witness very few in the way of PW members participating in these continual threads about one particular way of tuning.<<

There might be a lot more lurkers than you know. Which is not surprising, since the debate between mono-temperament techs and multi-temperament ones is tedious without there being a couple of instruments to compare. It is sort of like arguing what a banana should taste like. We can talk all day and never communicate as much as 3 seconds of tasting one. I specifically used a temperament for Beethoven's "Pathetique" on our first CD that used a 21 cent tonic third in the second mvt. It is easy to find out people's perspective when that passage is as dreary as possible, and Ab in a 18th century tuning is about as dreary as it gets. I hope to get that CD up on the web at some point, (but still working getting the later one up sooner).

There are significantly more tuners and customers involved in non-ET tuning than there were 17 years ago. A lot more. We don't all use one non-ET temperament, there are several that are very valuable for their improvement without noticeably changing the pitch of any one note, and I am finding more and more professional musicians (Nashville is full of them), that really like the variety.
Regards,
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 03:02 PM

Well Mr. Silverwood, all that you have stated above is your opinion. Why shouldn't Jerry be able to express his?

I wonder what your opinion is about the number of musicians as opposed to the number of piano tuners on the planet?

Now my opinion:

Musicians hear things differently than tuners. I include more than just pianists. Orchestras and choirs perform in UT. The Bach B-minor Mass would not be performed the same way if it were in B-Flat minor. It certainly would be different in C-minor.

Musicianship and musicality takes precedence over stretch and cents to a performing musician. Myself included. This pianist prefers his pianos tuned to EBTV, and no, I don't know which version. Each one of the three may be slightly different, and frankly, I don't really care about the nuts and bolts of how it was done. That is what tuners do. I play.

It has been pointed out that I should not make comments in this forum as I am not a member of the trade. However, the trade exists to perform service to musicians. If my opinion is not of interest to you, so be it. It will not cease the statement of my opinions. Please remember that the Tuner-Technician Forum is just a very small part of Piano World. Please don't live in a closed box.

I have learned a great deal in this forum. I have greater appreciation for all that is involved in the tuning and maintenance of my pianos. Having a piano rebuilt was a wonderful learning experience.

We all have much to learn from each other.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 03:22 PM


Thanks for posting your local experiences Ed. This does indeed confirm that we all have clients with differing wishes and can share those experiences here with others.

For myself I would have to state that I don’t see a lot of requests for this kind of thing locally. I do tunings occasionally for local early music societies that ask for harpsichord tunings and things of that nature. They ask for Victorian sequences for which I oblige.
Posted by: Emmery

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 04:08 PM

I can certainly agree with one thing that has been posted by numerous people sitting on both sides of the fence. Its the fact that the average public does not have the ears to tell the difference between ET and an alternative temperament that varies from it by a few cents here and there. Heck, even techs with good ears would mistake EBVT for a sloppy ET tuning.

What this means in regards to the topic of how many prefer this temperament or that is, average people are extremely susceptable to suggestion, hype, misdirection, downplaying or ignoring the less favourable intervals ect... Unfortunately when the reality catches up with them and it suddenly comes to light that only a few people "claim" to see an improvement, only a few of the (often) same people hype it online, only a few of the same people post endless recordings ect... it begins to take the same shape and form of what all "fads" are sculpted to begin as. Perhaps Bill would be happy with "fad" status, maybe he has higher asperations than this, I don't know. The marketing approach of bombarding a single forum with endless recordings and accolades with the associated numerous non related "bump postings" from a small select group of followers bears this out.

One thing for sure IMHO is that something rock solid that has few or no hidden negative characteristics is never marketed or publically discussed in such a way where questions, comments, dissenting opinions/criticisms are met with insults, labelled as berating, vitriolic or badgerring in nature. This type of response is a dead sure giveaway that a rebuttal is lacking or has no substance.

I do respect the opinions of a few who try to reason out and validate their tastes in temperaments, don't agee with them but at least they have taken a back seat approach to letting the temperament rest on its own merits...not professing to the public that 99% of the tunings out there (ET)are inferior to the one which is a slightly modified version of it.

Jerry, my 99.9% numbers came from a sample of the Toronto and surrounding area yellow page listings of tuners which number about 45, for a population of aprox 3 million people. 25 of the techs were called by phone and 22 of them did not even hear of EBVT, (obviously they don't come to this site). The rest of the techs heard about it but found it so insignificant in their business, they never bothered to tune it. The motto of "stick with what your good at" is not a bad one to follow for business if one wants to travel on a safe path. Adding that .1% in favour of EBVT Jerry, was simply a gesture of good faith on my behalf, considerring that there might be a slight chance a tech would claim to tune it, fully knowing that the customer won't be pulling out an ETD afterwards to validate it.

Even if 1% of the tunings offered by tuners worldwide take the form of EBVT and its variants, this is a remarkable achievement. Consider the fact that there are hundreds of alternative and historic temperaments out there and not one has ever taken a foothold against ET since its come into widespread use.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 04:29 PM

And again ..... The very same Yada, Yada, Yada.

"Average people" do not consider themselves to be musicians. And certainly not proven musicians.

Emmery, you continually berate musicians. Why is this so, since you make your living from them, not from "average people?"
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 04:57 PM

So far, the very best marketing approach ever has been the rants against the use of any non-equal temperament. That started some 15 years ago and it was not on this forum. There are forums dedicated exclusively to non-equal temperaments, by the way. Anything that the couple of people on here who are so disinterested in non-equal temperaments that they have to continually repeat what they have no real knowledge or experience in, only their confusion, anger and frustration that the topic won't go away, only serve to keep the topic alive and well.

I still have one more late afternoon appointment today with a long time customer (who knows about and wants what I do, so I have little time to discuss much at all. However, I have to say that to my utter surprise, a new customer today at 1 PM stated to me matter-of-factually, "I saw all of the discussion about the way you tune on the Internet, so I just had to give you a try! I never liked the idea of strictly Equal Temperament [she also owns a harpsichord] and I have guests coming this weekend and wanted to give your idea a try. As far as I knew, piano technicians would only tune in ET, so I am glad to know that is not entirely true."

Talk about lurkers and the supposedly miniscule numbers of people that have ever heard of anything but ET, what they know, what they don't know, what the want or don't want!

So, keep it coming, Emmery. Keep all of those preposterous, absurd and non-factual statements coming every day because you are, in fact the best advertisement for the use of non-equal temperaments there has ever been.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 05:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Jerry, my 99.9% numbers came from a sample of the Toronto and surrounding area yellow page listings of tuners which number about 45, for a population of aprox 3 million people. 25 of the techs were called by phone and 22 of them did not even hear of EBVT, (obviously they don't come to this site). The rest of the techs heard about it but found it so insignificant in their business, they never bothered to tune it.


My experience here is much the same Emmery; there are about 35 techs in the Lower Mainland over an approximate population of 2 million. I haven’t asked them all yet, but the ones I have asked do the standard tuning and many had never heard of Bill’s sequence. That gives no indication they might hear of it at a later date….

Seems there are different experiences for techs and their clients which comes as no surprise.
Posted by: rxd

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 05:23 PM

Just a general impression, mind, but, from all the threads on this forum, it appears to me that there are, on this entire planet, 11-12 champions of ebvt who would willingly lay down their lives for it but only 3-4 caring souls who would try to stop them.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 05:38 PM


Originally Posted By: rxd
Just a general impression, mind, but, from all the threads on this forum, it appears to me that there are, on this entire planet, 11-12 champions of ebvt who would willingly lay down their lives for it but only 3-4 caring souls who would try to stop them.


Encapsulates the whole issue in one short para…beautifully written rxd.

We do not see things as they are, we see things as we are.
Posted by: Piano Guy

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 05:47 PM

RXD....."in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not."
Excellent summation.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 06:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
The marketing approach of bombarding a single forum with endless recordings and accolades with the associated numerous non related "bump postings" from a small select group of followers bears this out.


Yes, to the point of it being nauseating; we have had almost every single song ever written posted here as a sound sample with the exception of Purple Haze, Itchycoo Park, and Inna-godda-divida…..

In my experience this is the ONLY tech forum where bump postings or top postings are permitted. On other tech forums, get caught doing this and you are gone.

Then we have the endless thread of cute cats and dogs and a lot of other trash. This is supposed to be a tech forum where technicians talk about pianos. If people are looking for trash there is PLENTY, PLENTY of it everywhere on the net.

Why do we all have to endure this here constantly? When is it enough?.... one page….. three pages.... twenty pages…..what?

Easy to see why a lot of good techs refuse to post here any longer.
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 06:44 PM

Quote:
300 million in the US and 35 million in Canada which makes up most of North America. And this is not counting the population of Europe which would drive the percentages down even farther….…


Quite a difference in population and opinions available.

Quote:
Jerry, my 99.9% numbers came from a sample of the Toronto and surrounding area yellow page listings of tuners which number about 45, for a population of aprox 3 million people. 25 of the techs were called by phone and 22 of them did not even hear of EBVT, (obviously they don't come to this site). The rest of the techs heard about it but found it so insignificant in their business, they never bothered to tune it. The motto of "stick with what your good at" is not a bad one to follow for business if one wants to travel on a safe path. Adding that .1% in favour of EBVT Jerry, was simply a gesture of good faith on my behalf, considerring that there might be a slight chance a tech would claim to tune it, fully knowing that the customer won't be pulling out an ETD
afterwards to validate it.


22 out of 45 never even heard of it. How can someone that never even heard of something give an opinion on it?

"the rest of the techs never even tried it." Again, what kinds of opinions are these? Tuners that know nothing of it and those that have never used it and probably never heard a piano tuned in it.. That shoots your stats away.

Our local chapter hired Bill Bremmer to come in to give a meeting specfially on EBVT III as per my suggestion. He also traveled to the Detroit chapter too, I believe, wasn't it Bill? So, all of our chapter members have heard of EBVT III now. Plus, they got to hear first hand that same evening so they could decide for themselves if they liked it or not.

I even went so far as to tune my own piano in EBVT III and had a couple of technicians over. I played it for them asking them how they liked my tuning? Without telling them that I had tuned it in EBVT III!

Each technicians said that they loved my tuning and my playing after which, I then explained what I had done. They were floored!!!

Every single tuner that attended our chapter meeting, had never heard of EBVT III. After the meeting and later on, I contacted each person separately and asked them what they thought of it. "Interesting was the most often used phrase." I then proceeded to ask them if they liked how the piano sounded while it was being played? Every one of them said yes, they did. Some liked it more than others but, all of them liked "it." Some techs were even going to learn how to tune in EBVT III.

So, you see, my opinion, is based more on actual facts than it is on getting opinions from tuners who have never even heard of it.

Now, that said, I still DO LIKE ET! I always have, and I always will and, for the most part, I still tune most pianos in it. That is my preference too.... However, as I said before, it is nice, that I can do both and do both, as requested or as I feel like it. smile

Marty, you are very welcome in this piano forum.... I enjoy your threads.

Quote:
Then we have the endless thread of cute cats and dogs and a lot of other trash. This is supposed to be a tech forum where technicians talk about pianos.


If you don't like it, don't read it. You have no idea how many people have written to me privately thanking me for "making their day happier."

One person thanked me profusely for putting on funny things because they had cancer. They had, had, a very bad day, that particular day and came on Piano World, just to look at, read and laugh at the postings that were there on that topic. They took the time to write to me, thanking me for it.

THAT Dan, is the reason why "WE" keep posting humorous things there.
Posted by: Cinnamonbear

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 07:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Emmery
The marketing approach of bombarding a single forum with endless recordings and accolades with the associated numerous non related "bump postings" from a small select group of followers bears this out.


Yes, to the point of it being nauseating; we have had almost every single song ever written posted here as a sound sample with the exception of Purple Haze, Itchycoo Park, and Inna-godda-divida…..

In my experience this is the ONLY tech forum where bump postings or top postings are permitted. On other tech forums, get caught doing this and you are gone.

Then we have the endless thread of cute cats and dogs and a lot of other trash. This is supposed to be a tech forum where technicians talk about pianos. If people are looking for trash there is PLENTY, PLENTY of it everywhere on the net.

Why do we all have to endure this here constantly? When is it enough?.... one page….. three pages.... twenty pages…..what?

Easy to see why a lot of good techs refuse to post here any longer.


Man, who pee'd in your Cherrios this morning? You don't have to "endure" it. Just don't open the danged thread! It's really easy! smile
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/27/12 08:36 PM

The more people who are asked if they have ever heard of it, the more people will have by the time you get done asking them. Out of those, there are sure to be some who will look into what it is all about and become interested in it. So, keep trying to prove that 99.9% of people have never heard of it and keep claiming that figure too. It's an advertising campaign that really works and it is free!
Posted by: Sparky McBiff

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/28/12 10:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
... At the time, it was tuned to the RBFT (Randomly Beating Frontier Temperament)


Ha ha ha. RBFT. laugh laugh laugh

(I thought I'd be considerate and let you know that I'm stealing that). thumb
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/29/12 01:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Emmery
The marketing approach of bombarding a single forum with endless recordings and accolades with the associated numerous non related "bump postings" from a small select group of followers bears this out.


Yes, to the point of it being nauseating; we have had almost every single song ever written posted here as a sound sample with the exception of Purple Haze, Itchycoo Park, and Inna-godda-divida…..

In my experience this is the ONLY tech forum where bump postings or top postings are permitted. On other tech forums, get caught doing this and you are gone.

Then we have the endless thread of cute cats and dogs and a lot of other trash. This is supposed to be a tech forum where technicians talk about pianos. If people are looking for trash there is PLENTY, PLENTY of it everywhere on the net.

Why do we all have to endure this here constantly? When is it enough?.... one page….. three pages.... twenty pages…..what?

Easy to see why a lot of good techs refuse to post here any longer.


Dan, I have been guilty of replying to some of the threads you are referring to. I do find such threads a refreshing change from the incessant, arrogant and bilious talk about key color. Andy is also tuning his piano I believe, and demonstrating it, something that very few techs on this forum have the courage to do.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/29/12 03:07 PM

Here's some work I did on a Yamaha G3 today. I just played chromatic triads (each with a bass note) starting from C, going up an octave to the next C. I thought a key-by-key comparison including all 12 keys would be good.

http://soundcloud.com/ldigiorgi/triads-on-a-piano-tuned-in

I did some tweaking after I recorded this, but mainly just cleaning up unisons, etc., so I didn't feel like rerecording.

Hearing the smoothness of some keys immediately followed by the "spiciness" of others is an interesting thing to hear.
Posted by: RonTuner

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/29/12 04:41 PM

Loren, try it in circle of fifths order next time - I think you may hear something interesting!

Ron Koval
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/29/12 04:46 PM

I'll try that, Ron!
Posted by: Ryan Hassell

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/29/12 05:57 PM

I do the circle of 5ths after I tune each piano. You can hear it go from calm to "spicy" and back to calm. Very interesting.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/29/12 06:02 PM

Thanks, Ryan, I'll definitely try it!
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/29/12 06:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie

Dan, I have been guilty of replying to some of the threads you are referring to. I do find such threads a refreshing change from the incessant, arrogant and bilious talk about key color.


Not to worry Chris you are guilty of nothing. The remainder of your statement I would agree with.
I was making a different point than a complaint, and received the answer I was looking for.
Posted by: Ryan Hassell

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/29/12 07:33 PM

OK all, here's a link to "Old-Time Religion" played by the pianist at my church this past Sunday. Yes, there are a few unisons that need touched up, but you can hear the change in color as she modulates through three different keys. I have not seen the music, but based on the sound assume that the second key is in several sharps or flats due to the color. The piano is a new Yamaha Baby Grand.

https://sites.google.com/site/hassellspianotuning/recordings


Let me know what you think.
Posted by: Eric Gloo

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/29/12 10:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Ryan Hassell


OK - you wanted to know...I hear out of tune unisons and octaves, even more pronounced after the first key change.
Posted by: Ryan Hassell

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/29/12 11:27 PM

Eric,
I appreciate your honesty, yes it could use another tune up, the tuning is a few months old and it's a new Yamaha Grand that's still settling in. I just thought it was a good example of a song with key changes that demonstrates changes in tone color. I'm still pretty new at this and still learning. That's why I keep coming back to this forum. For all the fighting that goes on here, there is some good stuff every now and then. LOL! Hey at least I had the courage to put myself out there and post a recording. :-)
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/30/12 12:25 AM

Ryan,

I commend you for have the courage to post your tuning here for everyone to see and to hear! It takes a lot of guts to post your tuning here. Again, I commend you for doing so and everyone else that has and does post them!
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/30/12 07:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Ryan Hassell
Eric,
I appreciate your honesty, yes it could use another tune up, the tuning is a few months old and it's a new Yamaha Grand that's still settling in. I just thought it was a good example of a song with key changes that demonstrates changes in tone color. I'm still pretty new at this and still learning. That's why I keep coming back to this forum. For all the fighting that goes on here, there is some good stuff every now and then. LOL! Hey at least I had the courage to put myself out there and post a recording. :-)


Indeed you did! You didn't indicate that the piano was recently tuned, so I was paying attention to the sound of the piano and not the tuning. Anyway, many of us have posted samples of our work, shortcomings and all. I think it's a healthy exercise. smile
Posted by: Eric Gloo

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/30/12 08:13 AM

Ryan,

I should have put a smile after my comment. I am relieved the piano on the recording hadn't just been tuned. And yes, there is a definite difference after each key change.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/30/12 10:38 AM

Hi Ryan,

I think it's great that you include the recorded examples of your work.

I would like to make a suggestion, however. This is a suggestion and not a criticism.

You have the examples tied to your professional web site. I have not encountered that before and think it is a very clever idea. Keep in mind that it is accessable to your customers and those searching for a tuner. Make sure that the examples are A-1 perfect. May I suggest a more controlled recording. "Old Time Religion" could have been rockin'. The pianist is well meaning, and quite adequate for the task, but.....

Do you have any clients who have a bit more mastery of the piano who would be willing to do a recording gig? Barter with a free tuning. Since it is on your site, and not just for this forum, it really needs to sparkle!

With all good intentions,
Posted by: Ryan Hassell

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 06/30/12 05:02 PM

Thanks for the nice words, guys.

Marty, Putting recording on my site is only an idea I came up with a couple of weeks ago, so I have just started to make and collect recordings. I will be making some more and hopefully getting some more "flashy" songs. I mainly just posted that one to be able to link to it here as an example of hearing the difference between key signatures in EBVT. I admit, it was not the best tuning or version of the song. I like the idea though of the recordings being regular everyday people playing their pianos and not a perfect polished studio recording. I plan on posting the persons name to it as well. Here in my area, pretty much rural, where it seems everyone knows everyone else, or at least is their cousin, I believe it will help new customers to see the name of people they know, both on recordings as well as my testimonial page.

So, thanks for your comments, I appreciate them. My full time job is teaching teenagers to sing all day, so I am not easily offended. LOL!!!!
Posted by: pppat

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/03/12 07:38 PM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Ah, I see now why I couldn't get it to work. I had G# at 0.76 instead of .75.

Don't worry, a typical beginners error. Just balance the smoothness of the inharmonicity with the solidness of the unisons and make sure that you hold the tuning hammer with your hand, not with your foot. Just tweak the string tension paying attention to the soundboard and make sure your s factor is 1.29382983723479.

Seriously, it's a very nice temperament.

Kees


Hi Kees (long time no see... I've been pre-occupied with non-tuning stuff this last year smile )

If your temperament is kind of a shifted Lehman, it should be possible to tune it aurally, too, shouldn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to give it a shot aurally at some point.

Posted by: DoelKees

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/03/12 10:16 PM

Originally Posted By: pppat
Hi Kees (long time no see... I've been pre-occupied with non-tuning stuff this last year smile )

"Me too" would be an understatement for me. It's nice to know however that if I'd lose my job or retire I know what I want to do then: become a real piano technician!
Originally Posted By: pppat

If your temperament is kind of a shifted Lehman, it should be possible to tune it aurally, too, shouldn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to give it a shot aurally at some point.

Of course.

It's a reversed Lehman, i.e., reading the loops as-is, assuming triple loops represent the narrowest fifths, double loops the moderately narrow fifths, and single loops pure fifths. Because the scribble (my icon), interpreted this way, does not close, there is one fifth that is not determined. I assume this to be the "joker", which you can use to sweep your tuning errors under, provided they are small enough. In my mathematical calculation of the resulting temperament I assume no junk under the carpet.

Aurally I tune it like this:

1) Tune F3A3 a touch wider than in a 1/6' meantone. This is about 4 bps. A little narrower (up to 0 bps!) or wider (up to 5 bps, haven't tried 6 yet) is fine. ( I don't believe an absolute temperament is specified.)

2) Tetrasect FA into 4th and 5ths according to Lehman/Bremmer method. This give you CGD. (Tune notes CGD such that FC CG GD and DA are equally "bad".)

3) Now tune E so that GD beats as AE (err on the faster beating AE side of course).

4) Tune B pure to E
Tune Bb pure to F
Tune Eb pure to Bb
Tune Ab pure to Eb

5)
Tune C# and F# so that C#G# F#C# and B F# are the same (they should be about off as in ET (1/13' instead of 1/12' actually, don't think this is an audible difference). THis is a trisection of the m3 G#B.

Done.

Kees
Posted by: pppat

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/04/12 06:41 PM

Thanks Kees, what you describe is exactly the way I was going to tune it - good to get this confirmation from you beforehand!

I will try this after the convention and see how I like it. I really like what I've heard of the Lehman, but I (as you yourself, from what I see) have a problem with the "color scheme" being shifted from what I would expect from a WT.

The other thing I will try is Bernhards Stopperstimmung -I have been planning that for a year but time hasn't permitted me to do any explorations at all.

Posted by: Ryan Hassell

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/04/12 07:01 PM

Sorry... I just had to post this!!

Posted by: Grandpianoman

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/04/12 09:11 PM

Wow Ryan, you hit the nail on the head! It's so true, that I cannot add any more positives to it! smile
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/05/12 12:37 AM

Once again, I had nothing to do whatsoever with what looks to me like a promotional graphic. I have strictly avoided the mention of the name of the temperament I developed in most of my recent posts. I never put put my own name as a label of any kind on what I do. I don't "sell" my material to anyone. I have suggested people explore virtually any non-equal temperament. Ironically however, the best "advertising" I have ever profited from has been by those who say that what I do would not work, could not work and should not be tried. So to that, I say, keep it coming. You are doing me a favor from which you will never profit but I will.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/17/12 07:57 PM

See to me, a C major triad in ET just sounds ghastly. I find that more of a "wolf" than anything I hear in EBVT. "In tune" is definitely subjective, as someone else correctly pointed out.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/17/12 11:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Loren D
See to me, a C major triad in ET just sounds ghastly. I find that more of a "wolf" than anything I hear in EBVT. "In tune" is definitely subjective, as someone else correctly pointed out.

OK so tune your C major triad perfectly. It will sounds great.

Next play a C major scale. It won't sound good. In particular the E is lower than any singer would intonate.

So melody and harmony are have different requirements. In medieval times there was only melody and Pythagorean tuning ruled. This is still true in all non-western musics. And ET is an excellent approximation of Pythagorean temperament.

Harmony changes everything and now we care about intervals, mainly M3. Why? Because in ET P5 is almost perfect but M3 is awful. Look up the beat rates.

How to balance melodic and harmonic demands with just 12 keys is an art. ET is the mean of all those arts over all keys, but taking into account that keys are treated differently by all composers except the Viennese atonal school, the average should presumably be weighted taking into account common use, and this leads to WT.

Pro tuners resist because it requires them to expand their skill set. It is very comforting to learn to tune ET and then pretend there is no need to learn more and just tune.

Kees
Posted by: Cinnamonbear

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/18/12 12:24 AM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[...] Pro tuners resist because it requires them to expand their skill set. It is very comforting to learn to tune ET and then pretend there is no need to learn more and just tune.


This is what I have suspected for a while, now, after hashing through some of these contentious threads...
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/18/12 12:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[...] Pro tuners resist because it requires them to expand their skill set. It is very comforting to learn to tune ET and then pretend there is no need to learn more and just tune.


This is what I have suspected for a while, now, after hashing through some of these contentious threads...

And from a practical point of view they are probably right.

They can fly in Bill Bremmer if they really want EBVT3, or me if they want Bach13 (as has happened on one occasion).

Kees
Posted by: Cinnamonbear

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/18/12 01:46 AM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[...] Pro tuners resist because it requires them to expand their skill set. It is very comforting to learn to tune ET and then pretend there is no need to learn more and just tune.


This is what I have suspected for a while, now, after hashing through some of these contentious threads...

And from a practical point of view they are probably right.

They can fly in Bill Bremmer if they really want EBVT3, or me if they want Bach13 (as has happened on one occasion).

Kees


[edit]: Can they fly in Kamin, too? (You are too witty for me, Kees! wink ) [/edit]

So... Practically speaking? Chuch Belknap managed to tune a very pleasant, recognizable EBVT III aurally, recently, and proved it. Jerry Groot, Patrick Wingren and Inlanding (Glen) tuned it, too, and proved it. Grandpianoman continues to tune fine EBVT III with an ETD, and Roy Peters did it that way, too.

Personally, I like open-minded tuners who, if I would happen to say, "I'd like to try Bach13 this time," would say, "Sure thing! Coming right up!" grin

--Andy
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/18/12 04:32 AM

Kees, I agree that in ET, 3rds are awful. We are used to it. We're used to awful. I love smooth, musical 3rds. I also love clean 5ths. I know we can't have both and still expect to be able to play western music, but my ear pulls me toward those musical 3rds.
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/19/12 06:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Loren D
in ET, 3rds are awful. We are used to it. We're used to awful. I love smooth, musical 3rds.


Just yesterday, Bill wrote that the sound of ET major keys is the same as A Major in a WT. So, if ET M3s are awful, do you find that A major in EBVT-III sounds "awful" too? And if it does, what about those remote keys? They are even less "smooth and musical" than A Major. By that measure, E Major should actually sound gruesome, B Major horrific, and F# major should be a right-down ghastly emetic.

Again, I ask:

How is it that busy M3s are called "spicy" when they form part of a WT, but even 14 cent M3s are called "awful" when they form part of ET?

On the other hand, if A Major sounds fine in EBVT-III, pray tell, why do you call it "awful" in ET?

If A major sounds fine in EBVT-III, then by Bill's words it is just as fine in ET. And again by Bill's words: seeing that all keys sound like A major in ET, I conclude that ET sounds fine!

(I've never seen anyone avoid A Major in a WT just because it has that "awful ET sound".)
Posted by: Loren D

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/19/12 06:58 AM

I just like smooth 3rds. In a WT at least many of the keys are significantly smoother, leading me to hear a more musical sound overall.
Posted by: jim ialeggio

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/19/12 07:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Loren D
I just like smooth 3rds. In a WT at least many of the keys are significantly smoother, leading me to hear a more musical sound overall.


This could be the defining difference that determines a persons "innate" bias towards what temperament sound turns them on.

Over the years I've noticed great variablity between individual musician', attraction to, and/or tolerance of sounds based on and defined by fifths, and octaves, as opposed to sounds defined more by thirds.

Although there might be a glitch in this theory, as though impressionists like Debussy use lush piles of thirds, I still prefer to hear his music with the even acceptably quiet fifth of ET. On the other hand, though his music piles up the thirds, the thirds are not used in common practice harmonic constructions, based on the cycle of fifths, leading one tonal region to the next...they are more static, "eastern", and don't necessarily leed you anywhere tonally... they are just lush sounds.

Just thinkin' out loud

Jim Ialeggio
Posted by: Ed Foote

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/19/12 08:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.

Just yesterday, Bill wrote that the sound of ET major keys is the same as A Major in a WT. So, if ET M3s are awful, do you find that A major in EBVT-III sounds "awful" too? And if it does, what about those remote keys? They are even less "smooth and musical" than A Major. By that measure, E Major should actually sound gruesome, B Major horrific, and F# major should be a right-down ghastly emetic.

Again, I ask:

How is it that busy M3s are called "spicy" when they form part of a WT, but even 14 cent M3s are called "awful" when they form part of ET?
(I've never seen anyone avoid A Major in a WT just because it has that "awful ET sound".)


Greetings,
For myself, the horror of ET is the sameness, not the size of the third. That 14 cent third is just another tonal value, something that can be successfully resolved to from somewhere even more expressive. It is a perfectly useful width, (or color,if you like). However, a WT has a range of values, and ET does not, which is the crux of the temperament debate. Some hear the music working with the changes in keys, others do not.

It is not unlike the "Magic Eye" pictures, in which some people are able to see the hidden, synthesized image. Those that cannot will never be convinced by hearing others describe it, they will only really grasp it when they see it. Once the sound of ET is heard in the context of a wider range of intonation, it's real nature becomes more obvious. Side by side pianos, tuned in ET and WT, will usually do this. I've done it, a lot. With rooms full of techs, or music teachers, or students. Results are always the same.
Regards,
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/19/12 08:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Originally Posted By: Mark R.

Just yesterday, Bill wrote that the sound of ET major keys is the same as A Major in a WT. So, if ET M3s are awful, do you find that A major in EBVT-III sounds "awful" too? And if it does, what about those remote keys? They are even less "smooth and musical" than A Major. By that measure, E Major should actually sound gruesome, B Major horrific, and F# major should be a right-down ghastly emetic.

Again, I ask:

How is it that busy M3s are called "spicy" when they form part of a WT, but even 14 cent M3s are called "awful" when they form part of ET?
(I've never seen anyone avoid A Major in a WT just because it has that "awful ET sound".)


Greetings,
For myself, the horror of ET is the sameness, not the size of the third. That 14 cent third is just another tonal value, something that can be successfully resolved to from somewhere even more expressive. It is a perfectly useful width, (or color,if you like). However, a WT has a range of values, and ET does not, which is the crux of the temperament debate. Some hear the music working with the changes in keys, others do not.

It is not unlike the "Magic Eye" pictures, in which some people are able to see the hidden, synthesized image. Those that cannot will never be convinced by hearing others describe it, they will only really grasp it when they see it. Once the sound of ET is heard in the context of a wider range of intonation, it's real nature becomes more obvious. Side by side pianos, tuned in ET and WT, will usually do this. I've done it, a lot. With rooms full of techs, or music teachers, or students. Results are always the same.
Regards,


I totally agree with ED on this one. It is not that A Major sounds bad, it is that in ET, everything sounds like A Major. Nothing comes to it nor departs from it. For me, to listen to a piano tuned in ET, there is nothing outright disturbing about it but there is a sorely missing lack of contrast and clarity. Everything has a certain indistinctness about it that is not as satisfying as a WT provides. It is worse when the High Treble is too flat and the Bass too sharp.
Posted by: chuck belknap

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/19/12 03:46 PM

Bill: Amen to the last post. You have described my feelings exactly. By the way, what intervals do "sharp bass" tuners use to tune that way. We had a tuner in my area that I would follow that tunes his bass really sharp, and I could never figure what checks he might use.

C belknap
Posted by: Larry Buck

Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it - 07/19/12 04:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Originally Posted By: Mark R.

Just yesterday, Bill wrote that the sound of ET major keys is the same as A Major in a WT. So, if ET M3s are awful, do you find that A major in EBVT-III sounds "awful" too? And if it does, what about those remote keys? They are even less "smooth and musical" than A Major. By that measure, E Major should actually sound gruesome, B Major horrific, and F# major should be a right-down ghastly emetic.

Again, I ask:

How is it that busy M3s are called "spicy" when they form part of a WT, but even 14 cent M3s are called "awful" when they form part of ET?
(I've never seen anyone avoid A Major in a WT just because it has that "awful ET sound".)


Greetings,
For myself, the horror of ET is the sameness, not the size of the third. That 14 cent third is just another tonal value, something that can be successfully resolved to from somewhere even more expressive. It is a perfectly useful width, (or color,if you like). However, a WT has a range of values, and ET does not, which is the crux of the temperament debate. Some hear the music working with the changes in keys, others do not.

It is not unlike the "Magic Eye" pictures, in which some people are able to see the hidden, synthesized image. Those that cannot will never be convinced by hearing others describe it, they will only really grasp it when they see it. Once the sound of ET is heard in the context of a wider range of intonation, it's real nature becomes more obvious. Side by side pianos, tuned in ET and WT, will usually do this. I've done it, a lot. With rooms full of techs, or music teachers, or students. Results are always the same.
Regards,


I totally agree with ED on this one. It is not that A Major sounds bad, it is that in ET, everything sounds like A Major. Nothing comes to it nor departs from it. For me, to listen to a piano tuned in ET, there is nothing outright disturbing about it but there is a sorely missing lack of contrast and clarity. Everything has a certain indistinctness about it that is not as satisfying as a WT provides. It is worse when the High Treble is too flat and the Bass too sharp.


+1