What think technicians about of max's temperament?

Posted by: Maximillyan

What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/08/12 01:09 AM

What think technicians about of max's temperament?
Dear technicians, please write everything you hear. I'm ready for constructive criticism, I'm do not lose a hopes learn how to tuning the piano. Sincerely, Max
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeU5J55PN-E
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/08/12 06:11 AM

Temperament ? How could anyone possibly judge from this video. The temperament consists of the initial octave tuned, from which all the other notes link. You only show yourself trying to clean up a unison.

The piano sounds horrible, although perhaps a little better than on previous videos. If you want to be taken seriously, I would concentrate on tuning an acceptable temperament with clean unisons.

You should be well aware that there are others on this forum that would also like to better their tuning skills, and are making serious efforts to improve, by taking advantage of help and coaching. I see little evidence that you want anything more than notoriety, rather than improve your work.

On a positive note though .... you do use a hoover very well wink
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/08/12 06:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie


On a positive note though .... you do use a hoover very well wink

Why you wasting your precious time when they wrote these lines,Johnkie?
Your opinion is absolutely indifferent to me. I ask you don't continue to put stupid jokes here. Sincerely, maxim_tuner
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/08/12 06:59 AM

Max, can you please tell the young lady that she plays very very well, truly. She really deserves a good and well tuned piano.

As far as the temperament is concerned, it cannot be judged from this video. The temperament is best judged by listening to a chromatic sequence of intervals (major 3rds, and 5th) in the middle of the piano, not a complex piano piece, and the unisons have to be very clean. The temperament starts with an octave in the middle of the piano and establishes the relationship between each of the 12 notes. Normally they are tuned to equal semitones and is called equal temperament, or ET. You must first explain to us how you go about tuning these first 12 notes. You remember Alex from Russia began by tuning the temperament in the middle of the piano using 5th and other intervals. Is this what you do as well? If you can post a video of a slowly rising chromatic sequence of major 3rds and then 5ths in the middle of the piano, and explain how you tuned them, then somebody may be better able to judge you and begin to provide advice.

Also, good to see you using the new tuning lever. However, it looks very uncontrolled the way you are holding it. Many tuners point the handle more vertically and rest their elbow on the piano top for support.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/08/12 07:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Max, can you please tell the young lady that she plays very very well, truly. She really deserves a good and well tuned piano.

What you write,Chris Leslie I think understand and the unisons and fifths and fourths sequences. I'm trying to do the ET. And yet, this piano really sounds awful, like wrotе Mr Jonkey? Does a piano not sound in Chopin? I will definitely give a girl your good wishes. It is really very sensual play Chopin (Polish autumn woods after a rain). She flys in clouds far from a Earth . Thank you for your criticism
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/08/12 07:30 AM

Max:

With the greatest respect .... it was you that asked for comments on your temperament, and I gave my honest opinion - So don't get shirty .... try getting better at what you do !
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/08/12 07:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Is this what you do as well? If you can post a video of a slowly rising chromatic sequence of major 3rds and then 5ths in the middle of the piano, and explain how you tuned them, then somebody may be better able to judge you and begin to provide advice.

I'll try to make this video
Posted by: pianolive

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/08/12 07:46 AM

Hello Max,

Like said here, it is not possible to judge the temperament and tuning of the piano from the video. All we can hear is that the piano needs tuning - in both versions.
You should start training to set a temperament and stop picking the strings! As you have no teacher to sit by you and show step by step, this is what I think you could try:
Strip mute the piano from E3 - A4 so you tune only the middle strings. At the beginning this will make it easier for you to tune temperament intervals.
Follow this guide from Bill Bremmer(There are two ways):
http://www.billbremmer.com/articles/midrange_piano_tuning.pdf

Work concentraded on this and come back if you have questions on temperament tuning.
You have to learn this the right way Max and work hard. There are no short cuts.

If you have a laptop, you could download a trial version of the Tune-Lab software and use it to set a temperament, which you could use as a "teacher" or guide. Use it to set the temperament in the octave E3 -> E4. In that octave it is easy to hear the beats of the intervals.

You must learn it right Max. There are no other ways!
When you can produce a tempered octave, you finish the tuning by tuning chromatically up and down.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/08/12 08:10 AM

Originally Posted By: pianolive
All we can hear is that the piano needs tuning - in both versions.

I'm very sorry that temperament not turned out again...
Posted by: pianolive

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/08/12 11:57 AM

Don´t be sorry Max! To set an ET temperament of high quality is not easy, it does take time to become experienced. Some people learn faster and some need a little more time. A musical ear is not the most important thing in learning, though it can be helpfull. The most important thing is concentration and listening to hear and set the temp interval beats.
You must follow a systematical procedure when you learn to set a temperament. If you do that, you will learn it! The temperament is the base for the the whole tuning.
Try to do as I wrote in the other post, and when you get into problems and have questions about things in your temperament exercise, put your questions here on the board. If you are working in the systematic way on the temperament, your problems or questions will probably be more specific. That will make it more easy to understand your problems and give you specific answers. I am sure a lot of good people on the board will try to help you out!
Ignore people who just try to make fun of you or call you names, it is just a sign of low self-esteem.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/10/12 12:57 AM

Originally Posted By: pianolive

Ignore people who just try to make fun of you or call you names, it is just a sign of low self-esteem.

Thank you,pianolive for your words of support. I hope that if I shall regularly work over temperament to get a positive end result. "The road by walking"
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/13/12 06:52 AM

Adept maxim_tuner’s from Russia (My first tuning. maxim_tuner's method)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsrI7TvxwnM&feature=plcp
Posted by: Emmery

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/13/12 04:27 PM

Maxim, see if you can find a really old, cheap, laptop computer and download the free version of TuneLab on it to help coach you with your tunings. Here in Canada a person can get one of these old laptops for $50. Sometimes people give them away for free when they get a new computer.

Either way, while you are still improving your tuning skills, I suggest you label your temperaments "Unequal Temperaments". After 1 day, you can technically call it a "Historic Temperament" if you wish, since it now resides in the past. With the thousands of temperaments in existance, there is an extremely high likelyhood that it matches one of them anyways. This will help keep techs from making stupid comments about it.

Either way, if you miss an interval, or end up with some 5th's that beats like a subway train, mention to the customer that these are unavoidable "wolf tones". Apparantly, pianists don't mind this too much once they learn how to play around them.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/18/12 11:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery

Either way, while you are still improving your tuning skills, I suggest you label your temperaments "Unequal Temperaments". After 1 day, you can technically call it a "Historic Temperament" if you wish, since it now resides in the past. With the thousands of temperaments in existance, there is an extremely high likelyhood that it matches one of them anyways. This will help keep techs from making stupid comments about it.


Emmery,thank you for your appreciation of my temperament. If it is "unequal& historic" that is, a vector for me to correct the situation in future.
How I do it now:
1 I get a note to tune in A = 440 in the choir to all gave a sound. Camerton (guitar tuner) fixes it
I build up from ( A = 440)
2 A quart of up (D), and also check it's choir
3 From (Re) get a fifth down (G)
4 When I made only one octave this method so checking at intervals (octave, fifth, fourth, major and minor third), the entire range of 88 keys
5 Diskant check only hears octave
When I made this, I play a mixture of 88 (large and small thirds) through the octave. If something I do not like looking at the testimony of a digital tuner.
Here is a medieval primitive technology with a drops digital . My clients are people do not have large pritenzy for me .

Still study the correct classical temperament is necessary. I will try to
Posted by: Phil D

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 05:02 AM

Max, do you have a long length of felt that you can use? Like this



This will mute the outer strings so only the middle string will sound. Without it you cannot learn to tune the temperament properly, as the unisons (the 'choir' I think you have called it) mask the sound of the intervals.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 06:44 AM

Nice color ! always raise the dampers when inserting the mute where the felts are W or V shaped.

Nice picture !

Plucking the string gioves a differnt pitch than playing, because it makes more partials ring, the final pitch heard is different.

So one must play the notes while tuning
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 07:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Phil D
Max, do you have a long length of felt that you can use? Like this
This will mute the outer strings so only the middle string will sound. Without it you cannot learn to tune the temperament properly, as the unisons (the 'choir' I think you have called it) mask the sound of the intervals.

Phil D,I know and understand it how use the mute tape to tuning . Perhaps it is convenient and correct. Unison (chorus) better listening and this is probably saves time. As I digress to the plucking and listening to the harmonic intervals. However, the "habit is second nature," I am now very hard to give up plucking. I put in a felt stub between the strings, when I work with ( pianolive's) hammer . Currently, the main task, which I put to myself is to achieve the correct unisons and compliance pure harmony intervals between them. So far is not very good I have
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 07:27 AM

Yes it is difficult to stop plucking, but necessary.

You will discover that the hand that play the note is participating to the tuning, it move the string, also you feel the hammer impacting the string with the hand that play .

strip mute is really good,

you also can make individual mutes with leather (an old belt, cut in 18 mmx 180 mm, moistened and hammered to make it thin on the ends)

the tuners I worked with did not use rubber mutes or felt strips 35 years ago, but mutes made of hammer felt or those leather strips.

Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 07:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Plucking the string gioves a differnt pitch than playing, because it makes more partials ring, the final pitch heard is different.

Kamin, you are right "because it makes more partials ring, the final pitch heard is different.." In the end tuning, I play on the forte with a strong blow the finger on a keys. Plucking, I had use only for the initial tuning the right tone (when 3 string had between itself sound a pour). I had try killed accordeon's sound. Sometimes this technique and apply now
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 08:11 AM

The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually , then when they have a little habit with the hammer they begin to earn to tune with the keys.

in the factory they are 'chipping' pianos with new strings to put them at pitch
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 08:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually

Max wants to forget and throw away his life "a plectrum with rope". Now he beginning tuner-student yet
Posted by: Gregor

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 10:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 10:36 AM

Gregor, first lessons with chipping, and chippers in factory before learning tuning, just to get some feel with the hammer.

It is not the same actually probably.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 01:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Gregor,thank you for a attention and your replic. My problem is that the part it may seem that I do not want and can not build the unisons so I have bad ears. But I work with very oldest upright piano. Pins refuse to keep the desired position in a bush and a hole of pinblock. And I have need little to overstate the desired tone in unison. So in my final temperament a human can to feel some accordion's sounding in unison (incoordination). I can assure you that after one or two visits and fix it's sound better
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 01:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


chipping after restringing,

in Russian, this operation is called "tsvikovschik" (цвиковщик)
Posted by: Emmery

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 02:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Sometimes us tuners need to resort to plucking and I carry a guitar pick for such occasions. Don't resort to it too often I might add. If a hammer misses a string and the customer refuses to repair it, I will still pluck tune it to get the string up to tension and in reasonable tune. On some old pianos the highest notes can get so faint, a pluck can produce a louder tone in noisy environments or a longer sustain for tuning purposes.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 02:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Sometimes us tuners need to resort to plucking and I carry a guitar pick for such occasions. Don't resort to it too often I might add. If a hammer misses a string and the customer refuses to repair it, I will still pluck tune it to get the string up to tension and in reasonable tune. On some old pianos the highest notes can get so faint, a pluck can produce a louder tone in noisy environments or a longer sustain for tuning purposes.

This is very true. This could have written only a practicing piano's tuner. Sometimes in practice, when the use of a plectrum is inevitable. Bravo, you have explained them very clearly.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 03:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Gregor, My problem is that the part it may seem that I do not want and can not build the unisons so I have bad ears. But I work with very oldest upright piano. Pins refuse to keep the desired position in a bush and a hole of pinblock.


Max I dont believe you have bad ears, but they are twisted, you are not used to listen for the good part of tone.

FOr the pins that dont stay put, try to work with the hammer very very slowly on those notes, if the pin does not grip when pushed back a little, go back and do again,
once, twice, 3, 4 times, after 3 or 4 times the grip will raise.

Think that the string have to hold the pin in its position, you don't need to push on the pin really, try to turn exactly in rotational plane, but with the real tuning hammer (you cannot turn slowly enough with the T hammer)

THere you need the energy provided by the playing hand to send strokes to the pin so it find its bed. The only necessity is that the bottom of the pin have yet a little grip.

On an old piano with no pin hold, you make the pin "float " in the hole while you fight the string tension with the hammer, the pin is just in the middle, when you release the tension it tend to go to its place naturally.

That is why it is very important to learn to respect the rotational plane of the pin, so not to add wear or compress the hole.

Learn to do that at any pitch (but with enough torque coming from the wire, then focus on tuning 2 strings together.)

To me a piano at 415 Hz is less easy to set the pin than one at 435.
The wire force is pushing the pin out of its rotational plane, it can compensate for a lot of wear.

Manipulating the pin again an again with the method I give you is providing some grip, that is what I noticed anyway (the opposite of what we think generally )


Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 03:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Sometimes us tuners need to resort to plucking and I carry a guitar pick for such occasions. Don't resort to it too often I might add. If a hammer misses a string and the customer refuses to repair it, I will still pluck tune it to get the string up to tension and in reasonable tune. On some old pianos the highest notes can get so faint, a pluck can produce a louder tone in noisy environments or a longer sustain for tuning purposes.


Sure, I also carry some finger nails for that use wink
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/19/12 03:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Gregor, My problem is that the part it may seem that I do not want and can not build the unisons so I have bad ears. But I work with very oldest upright piano. Pins refuse to keep the desired position in a bush and a hole of pinblock.



On an old piano with no pin hold, you make the pin "float " in the hole while you fight the string tension with the hammer, the pin is just in the middle, when you release the tension it tend to go to its place naturally.

That is why it is very important to learn to respect the rotational plane of the pin, so not to add wear or compress the hole.

Learn to do that at any pitch (but with enough torque coming from the wire, then focus on tuning 2 strings together.)

Thank Isaac,it's very need words for me
Regards
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 11/06/12 07:41 AM

Max is once again trying to make a temperament old piano "Belarus"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYrv2950b44
Posted by: Dennis Kelvie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 11/07/12 05:37 PM

Hey Max,
I AGREE with Johnkie, you DO use the hoover well. And you did NOT demonstrate any difference in anything more than the difference between a badly out of tune piano and one in better tune. You demonstrated NOTHING about the new temperament. The only REAL difference appeared to be in the unisons.

Do you know the difference?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 11/09/12 10:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Dennis Kelvie
. The only REAL difference appeared to be in the unisons.

Are Unison is still there?
Posted by: Emmery

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 11/09/12 12:18 PM

Max, spend some time around a really good tuner if you can find one. Carefully analyze the temperament on various pianos. It would be best if you had a solid benchmark to measure your progress against.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 11/09/12 01:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Carefully analyze the temperament on various pianos.

Hi,Emmery
Thanks for watching my movie. From your point of view it is permissible for temperament Piano 1957? I'm really trying to find the right temperament. I do not hide their mistakes. I am ready to criticism from other tuners. I do it's as I can, sorry
Posted by: Gregor

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 11/10/12 04:40 AM

If you don´t have a mentor, go and get a tuning software like tunelab. Tune the temperament and check it with tunelab: what did you well, what not? Use it as a mentor.

BTW, temperament is the term for tuning the whole octave from A3 to A4.

Gregor
Posted by: Emmery

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 11/10/12 09:24 AM

The temperament octave can be set in in various areas of the keyboard. Some people like to extend it beyond an octave also, but an octave is the minumum needed.

F3-F4 is probably most popular. Major 3rds get too fast above this point for progressive checks for most people. I know an old timer who sets his temperament between F2-F3 and likes the slower M3's afforded by this, and lots of people go from C3-C4, especially if they are carrying a C fork.
Posted by: erichlof

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 11/11/12 01:14 AM

Hey Max,
If you can't watch a pro at work tuning in your area, take a look at this video:



Listen to him tuning unisons and octaves. Always strive for a clean, clear unison and octave - no 'waves' or 'wobbles'.

Good luck!
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 11/11/12 08:29 AM

By now you should be doing a decent tuning. I can't help thInking that you might be doing a good tuning but, because of the lever technique you lectured us about in your last video, I can hear the piano going out of tune while you spend the first half of this particular video talking.

In your favor, I have yet to find a uTube demonstration of a good classic tuning technique using the thumb as a fulcrum that you can learn from. It seems that the ones who really know how to tune either don't know how to put a video on line or simply can't be bothered.

"The stuff on the web these days is actively preventing raw talent from developing"----discuss....
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 11/11/12 08:56 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
By now you should be doing a decent tuning. I can't help thInking that you might be doing a good tuning but, because of the lever technique you lectured us about in your last video, I can hear the piano going out of tune while you spend the first half of this particular video talking.

In your favor, I have yet to find a uTube demonstration of a good classic tuning technique using the thumb as a fulcrum that you can learn from. It seems that the ones who really know how to tune either don't know how to put a video on line or simply can't be bothered.

"The stuff on the web these days is actively preventing raw talent from developing"----discuss....


I'm sorry but I absolutely do not understand what you mean. If you think that Max is not able to tuning of a piano, then it is your right
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 11/11/12 09:42 AM

Read it again, max. That's not what I said.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 11/11/12 09:53 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Read it again, max. That's not what I said.

So, what are You talked?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/12/12 01:04 AM

Максим и "Ямаха"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUPlNB71ChI&list=FLlLmCnHFUipd4JolDg038DA&index=1
Максим и "Ямаха"2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUPlNB71ChI&list=FLlLmCnHFUipd4JolDg038DA&index=1
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/12/12 02:23 AM

Thank you, Max I haven't heard "Hearts amd Flowers" for years.
Did you tune the Yamaha?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/12/12 02:40 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Thank you, Max I haven't heard "Hearts amd Flowers" for years.
Did you tune the Yamaha?

Yes,I am.In the Russian version of the name of this romance "I met you" Я встретил Вас.
This is my first try a grand piano temperament use a professional hammer(gift's pianolive). I got up a pitch of this grand from 438 to 440.
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/12/12 03:55 AM

This represents quite a large improvement.

I suspect that, even though the a was 438, the treble may have been even lower so going over the tuning twice would have produced a better result.

The next step is to use other intervals as checks when tuning octaves and also in checking your work before finishing. By using these checks you will also realise the need for more care in the temperament. Tuning is a lifetimes study.

There are a couple of current threads on this forum that have a lot of good information on this.

Thank you for confirming our faith in you.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/12/12 05:34 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
This represents quite a large improvement.
Thank you for confirming our faith in you.

Thank you for your message,rxd . For me it was very important, especially your estimation, I'm touched. Over the year I was read many topics our forum about the tuning. Now sometimes me try manage temperament. Client-owner of Yamaha was pleased this temperament. I was afraid to pull the bass strings and long conjured over the every pins, but the Lord protected me. I did tuning this Grand! I thank all the technicians who give me advice and believe in me. Regards,Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/02/13 02:56 AM

Happy New Year!!!
Posted by: murrayb1893

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/04/13 03:39 PM

Too hard to tell via a Youtube video.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/05/13 03:40 AM

Originally Posted By: murrayb1893
Too hard to tell via a Youtube video.

Sorry murrayb1893. A message forum for those technicians who are aware of Max from Kazakhstan. He is still trying to do temperament oldest piano.maxim_tuner ready for constructive criticism
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/05/13 09:40 AM

It is said that bad habits gained early on are the hardest to eradicate.

I did detect some improvement with the Yamaha grand but your last video sounded very much like your first.

What happened? You made two steps forward and three steps back.

We honestly can't tell much from your last video because there is not one good unison, some of them worse than your first video.

I can appreciate how the Lord protected you on the Yamaha but there is an ancient saying; "Trust Allah, but tie your camel to a tree".

Make your next video just unisons and octaves and please don't talk. A good tuning shouldn't have to be explained.

Then you will be taken seriously.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/06/13 11:33 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
"Trust Allah, but tie your camel to a tree".
Make your next video just unisons and octaves and please don't talk. A good tuning shouldn't have to be explained.

На Бога надейся, а сам не плошай
dear rxd, I today really listened carefully and agree with you that not clean unisons and octaves some are not perfect. I will try soon to go back and fix it. In this video I play is not the final version. Later I corrected some things, but the camera was not working more than. But thanks again to you for advice.
Regards, Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/10/13 07:51 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
please don't talk. A good tuning shouldn't have to be explained.


Dear rxd,await your verdict
Regards, maxim_tuner
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/10/13 08:30 AM

Not only is the piano horribly out of tune with itself but unison's are badly out of tune and the piano is way off from pitch too!!! It is at least 1/4 of a tone or more flat of pitch. Plus, the voicing is not good either.
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/11/13 12:55 PM

Max,

Everything Jerry said applies.

The stage is beautifully dressed and there is some good piano teaching in your area. The whole thing is being let down by the state of the piano.

The piano sounds as though it has potential to be worthy of those young girls who have worked so hard at their playing.

It means going back to basics and that requires self discipline.

I asked you to show me some well tuned unisons. If you give me what I ask for and no more at this stage, we might be able to help you. That, in itself is an excerise in self discipline.

Only by tuning still unisons that stay where you put them can you begin to understand the basics of pin setting. This is extremely important.

Those girls are at a stage where they need their pianos in good condition in order to develop their potemtial as fine musicians. Don't let them down.

Piano tuning and servicing takes practice and is a lifetimes study. You have been sent everything you need to make a fresh start. Step up to the plate and give those people your best.

If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing well.

Practice, practice, practice.
Posted by: David Jenson

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/11/13 08:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan


Dear rxd,await your verdict
Regards, maxim_tuner
Wow! That was painful! The piano is not in tune. I think some echo and standing waves along with a less than stellar microphone contributed to the pain level, but the thing is pretty bad all on its own.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/11/13 09:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
please don't talk. A good tuning shouldn't have to be explained.


Dear rxd,await your verdict
Regards, maxim_tuner

It sounds pretty good to me, better than the piano that my kids gave their recital on here at some local Univertity, supposedly tuned by a top notch local RPT.

The unisons are quite lively, and I think it sounds good like that. Who wants a static note? Listen to the cantabile section at 11:00: all the beats create a nice texture.

Of course voicing can not be judged from an amateur recording.

Just my musical opinion.

Kees
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/12/13 04:05 AM

[/quote]
It sounds pretty good to me, better than the piano that my kids gave their recital on here at some local Univertity, supposedly tuned by a top notch local RPT.

The unisons are quite lively, and I think it sounds good like that. Who wants a static note? Listen to the cantabile section at 11:00: all the beats create a nice texture.

Of course voicing can not be judged from an amateur recording.

Just my musical opinion.

Kees [/quote]

Fascinating.

Kees, You write so eloquently about the mathematical niceties of fine tuning that I find it incongruous you should make the above statement.

I am not criticising your musical taste, acceptance of this style of tuning is very common and I know tuners who make a good lIving tuning this way, I even hired one but I have told that story before. I am not denying that there is a strong profitable market for it. My own stepfather who encouraged my interest in music, while he spent many evenings at the opera and symphony hall, often travelling hundreds of miles to catch an important performance, something I do myself now. He was generous with his time and money toward local music societies and yet he preferred his piano tuned this way or some of the many degrees of it. fortunately, we had our piano tuned 4 times a year by a competent tuner as I was growing up but when I left home, it got neglected and he preferred it that way so I never had to do the obligatory tuning whenever I went home.

The temperament chosen is of almost no consequence in this style of tuning but Max is appealing to us for an assessment of his temperament. We cannot give a
this assessment until the unisons are clean enough for us to make the aural distinctions that seem to only exist on paper to many theoretists, including yourself, as it comes to light.

There is a more refined style of tuning that is the only style found acceptable in major concert halls and sound studios. Its purity is often described as sterility but this is true of many art forms. Only in this purity can a temperament be ascertained.

The vast majority, it appears, cannot recognise the sound of a piano that has been tuned in this refined style. It seems to be an aquired taste.

Questions for anybody....Would you pay for a tuning like Max's on your piano?. Would you know the difference purely by listening?. If you can't hear the difference, is it fair to raise your kids to not know the difference?? (some kids have the acuity of hearing and develop the recognition skills naturally).

Your contribution here is valuable in that it brings this important aspect into focus and I thank you for once again substantiating the wisdom in the quote from Mr. Berra that accompanies all my posts.


Posted by: DoelKees

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/12/13 10:40 AM

rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.

Kees
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/12/13 11:53 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd

It sounds pretty good to me, better than the piano that my kids gave their recital on here at some local Univertity, supposedly tuned by a top notch local RPT.

The unisons are quite lively, and I think it sounds good like that. Who wants a static note? Listen to the cantabile section at 11:00: all the beats create a nice texture.

Of course voicing can not be judged from an amateur recording.

Just my musical opinion.

Kees [/quote]

Fascinating.

Kees, You write so eloquently about the mathematical niceties of fine tuning that I find it incongruous you should make the above statement.

I am not criticising your musical taste, acceptance of this style of tuning is very common and I know tuners who make a good lIving tuning this way, I even hired one but I have told that story before. I am not denying that there is a strong profitable market for it. My own stepfather who encouraged my interest in music, while he spent many evenings at the opera and symphony hall, often travelling hundreds of miles to catch an important performance, something I do myself now. He was generous with his time and money toward local music societies and yet he preferred his piano tuned this way or some of the many degrees of it. fortunately, we had our piano tuned 4 times a year by a competent tuner as I was growing up but when I left home, it got neglected and he preferred it that way so I never had to do the obligatory tuning whenever I went home.

The temperament chosen is of almost no consequence in this style of tuning but Max is appealing to us for an assessment of his temperament. We cannot give a
this assessment until the unisons are clean enough for us to make the aural distinctions that seem to only exist on paper to many theoretists, including yourself, as it comes to light.

There is a more refined style of tuning that is the only style found acceptable in major concert halls and sound studios. Its purity is often described as sterility but this is true of many art forms. Only in this purity can a temperament be ascertained.

The vast majority, it appears, cannot recognise the sound of a piano that has been tuned in this refined style. It seems to be an aquired taste.

Questions for anybody....Would you pay for a tuning like Max's on your piano?. Would you know the difference purely by listening?. If you can't hear the difference, is it fair to raise your kids to not know the difference?? (some kids have the acuity of hearing and develop the recognition skills naturally).

Your contribution here is valuable in that it brings this important aspect into focus and I thank you for once again substantiating the wisdom in the quote from Mr. Berra that accompanies all my posts.


[/quote]

Nicely written rxd.

I have found over the years and many people here in PW fit into this category, that in many cases, many of the tuners in here can't hear worth a crap. They all claim that they can but when comments such as I like the unisons out of tune come forth and they like it that way; all that tells me is that they cannot get them clean themselves. It also tells me that they are not all that experienced as they lead us to believe with attempting to get clean unisons and, it tells me that they have not had much experience with truly good, concert artists that they, themselves can hear the difference between in and out of tune. Most of which want pure unison's not out of tune ones.

Even with a bad recording, that tuning is easy to hear as is the bad voicing on it.

As for the question would I hire someone like that to tune my piano? Absolutely uquivocally NO WAY! I have a reputation to uphold. smile
Posted by: accordeur

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/12/13 12:13 PM

I thought Doelkees was being sarcastic. That piano is not in tune at all.
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/12/13 10:46 PM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.

Kees


Saving face is one thing. Going on to attack two little girls giving a concert is another. It Just looks like peevishness.

Didn't you ever give a concert when you were a little girl?

Your reply lends credence to another suspicion of mine, that being the state of sobriety of many posters. The pitiful long and short term effects of absinthe are well known, I'm amazed anybody still uses it.

Going online under its influence also could make it look like you might have been drinking alone.

Let's put it down to that and leave it there, thus disproving one more adage; absinthe does not make the heart grow fonder.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/13/13 10:25 AM

rxd, I'll go to church when I need a sermon, thank you very much.
Kees
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/13/13 10:31 AM

Doubtful it is genuine wormwood rxd, mostly likely the product artesium absinthium. Genuine absinthe causes neurological disorders and seizures etc.

Interestingly enough it was British importer BBH Spirits who initilally began to import Hill's Absinthe from the Czech Republic, which sparked a renewed interest in the product in the early 90’s. The product that came from the Czech Republic, Spain and Portugal was considered inferior as it used bohemian product in its manufacture.

In yr 2000 absinthe began production in France, the first time since 1914 or something like that. Today there are dozens of manufacturers in France.

Then in 2004 Amsterdam wine seller Menno Boorsma challenged the ban in Holland (as the ban was a conflict and never was a formal one.)

2007 saw the French ironically named Lucid brand become the first genuine absinthe to be made and receive a COLA certificate to import to the US.

St George Spirits of Alameda CA become the first manufacturer in the US.

In May of 2011 the (1915) ban in France was repealed.
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/13/13 10:39 AM

St. George Sprits, must have been a hehe, I love these, "spirited fellow" huh?

I've suspected the same thing over time as rxd that certain posters drink first, post and then think later. Now me, I'm on drugs on accounta I just had Gallbladder kicked out of my body so I have an excuse! hehe. Even then, I think my spellin is a bit of a problem more than anything else! smile But then, what else is new??? I've always had a problem with my spelling! ha
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/13/13 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Step up to the plate and give those people your best.
Practice, practice, practice.

Thank rxd for your message I shall try do it again and I think so a temperament be much better
Regards,Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/13/13 12:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Originally Posted By: rxd

many of the tuners in here can't hear worth a crap.

I urge not to write this offensive language here
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/13/13 12:17 PM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.
Kees

DoelKees, perhaps not everything was at Maxim, but this is not the "vodka" or as in your case (absinthe). Sometimes even some beats in unison and not quite perfect octave lies refined aesthetic pleasure. There is a good Russian proverb: "There are no ugly women, there are only few of vodka" (joke)

DoelKees, быть может не всё получилось у Максима, однако причина не в "вине" или как в Вашем случае (absinthe). Иногда даже в некоторых биениях в унисонах и не совсем чистых квартах и октавах кроется утончённое эстетическое наслаждение. Есть хорошая русская пословица: "Не бывает некрасивых женщин,бывает только мало водки" (шутка)
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/13/13 12:22 PM

Max, crap is not considered a naughty word.

2ndly, having bad sounding unisons is NOT acceptable under any circumstances and trying to pawn them off as being "okay or acceptable in any manner is wrong." They are out of tune, the piano itself is at LEAST 1/4 of a tone flat of pitch. There is no excuse for that one alone. The octaves are all out of tune. You ask for advice and then reprimand US for giving it. There is no way I can take you serious with that kind of attitude.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/13/13 11:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.
Kees

DoelKees, perhaps not everything was at Maxim, but this is not the "vodka" or as in your case (absinthe). Sometimes even some beats in unison and not quite perfect octave lies refined aesthetic pleasure. There is a good Russian proverb: "There are no ugly women, there are only few of vodka" (joke)

DoelKees, быть может не всё получилось у Максима, однако причина не в "вине" или как в Вашем случае (absinthe). Иногда даже в некоторых биениях в унисонах и не совсем чистых квартах и октавах кроется утончённое эстетическое наслаждение. Есть хорошая русская пословица: "Не бывает некрасивых женщин,бывает только мало водки" (шутка)


I understand the proverb, it's funny and has some wisdom behind it.

Jerry Groot likes to tune all unisons beatless, but studies have shown that musicians like the unisons to be a little bit off. This is why many people like a professional tuning better after a couple of days, when things have moved out of perfection.

Of course if you can tune beatless unisons you can also tune lively unisons, but if all you can tune is lively unisons you can not tune pure unisons. Food for thought.

Kees
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 03:42 AM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
studies have shown that musicians like the unisons to be a little bit off.


What studies? Can you point us to them?

I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 09:02 AM

Jerry Groot? And Patrick, and David Jensen and Bill Bremmer, and Dan Silverwood and Emmery, and grandpianoman, and Jeff and BDB and Bob Maret and Loren DiGiorgi and pretty much everyone else in here that can hear if a piano is out of tune or not Kee's. You're in the minority and you're wrong. So is Max.

Sometimes, I really wonder if you know what the heck you're talking about or not Kee's?

You may be able to spout off mathmatics like nobody's business but that is totally meaningless jibberish if you cannot do a good job of tuning or do not wish too.Or if you just like unison's that are out of tune. You a screwy wabbit u are...

I don't know how many pianos you tune a year but, prior to my health issues which have been going on for the past 2 or 3 years, I was tuning on average around 1,000 pianos per year and I was tuning for one heck of a lot of piano concerts.

Customers want the piano they are playing on to be in tune NOW, not two days after the concert is done with.... This is almost hilarious! I say, almost... smile
Posted by: ando

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 09:24 AM

I'm not a technician, but that tuning is completely unacceptable to me. It sounds terrible - like the kind of tuning you hear a movie set in an old western saloon. The young ladies playing on it are succeeding in spite of the tuning, not because of it.

I'm only a novice tuner, and I'm not an expert in setting temperaments, but at least I can get clean and stable unisons. To me that is a bare minimum for a tuning. This tuning fails that most basic of tests.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 09:48 AM

The piano is dreadful.

The performances are not.
Posted by: Emmery

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 09:55 AM

Max, I'll give my critique on the tuning here. I have software here for some decent analysis. The majority of the keys are indeed about 22-28 cents flat in the central 4 octaves, with the exception of G's and D's, which are about 5 cents flat. This indicates the temperament has got some issues also unless this is something other than ET. You need to check the calibration of your tuning fork to something valid. The tuning fork is a fickle thing, susceptable to changes from temperature, nicks and scratches, rust, ect. The treble and extreme treble increase in flatness up to about 50 cents. I beleive you need to find some useful checks for this that puts it up where it needs to be. The highest octave typically ends up 25-35 cents higher than normal, not lower. The unisons are far too busy/dirty. I am talking about a disparity that goes beyond "having extra energy". In laymens terms, the unisons are out of tune. With the music the girls were playing, a solid ET tuning with clean unisons and octaves would more than suffice. The saloon pianos of the west sounded the way they did because they travelled cross country on bumpy wagon rides, not because there was a particular dirty tuning style for them. They were often not tuned, or at best, a fiddle player or a saloon singer would attempt to pull up the worst notes with a crude tool the town blacksmith would fashion for them. Max, make sure you start with a referance point of A440. It would be extremely embarrasing if you get called to tune somewhere the piano will be played with a fixed pitch instrument....even people with wooden ears will pick up on that. I would likely do 2 or 3 passes on a piano that sounded like this one likely did before you started tuning it.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 11:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Max, I'll give my critique on the tuning here.


Dear Emmery, I am glad to receive your message. I sorry that you have to devote a lot of time analyzing my clip's tuning.
I took tuning a grand because really wanted to do it. In our country town no professional piano tuner and music school administrator asked me made temperament. My fee was $ 13. «Bluthner" for many years set (A = 438). Prior to the concert was less than a day. I began to move with this tone, because he was afraid to break the strings. Replace torn, there is no opportunity here. After the concert, I checked temperament. I did not catch the big differences for yourself. Fa3 note was slightly lower. Good not sounded as H4, F# 4 so. I did a temperament as I could. I will heed the advice of tech. experts for increase their own skills.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 11:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
The piano is dreadful.

The performances are not.

showmustgoon
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 11:29 AM

Originally Posted By: ando
like the kind of tuning you hear a movie set in an old western saloon.

Financial and moral state of culture in Kazakhstan is now at a level much like the Wild West, the late nineties of the 19th century
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 11:38 AM

The correct order for replying to a post is:

1) read
2) think
3) reply

Kees
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 11:52 AM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.
Kees

DoelKees, perhaps not everything was at Maxim, but this is not the "vodka" or as in your case (absinthe). Sometimes even some beats in unison and not quite perfect octave lies refined aesthetic pleasure. There is a good Russian proverb: "There are no ugly women, there are only few of vodka" (joke)

DoelKees, быть может не всё получилось у Максима, однако причина не в "вине" или как в Вашем случае (absinthe). Иногда даже в некоторых биениях в унисонах и не совсем чистых квартах и октавах кроется утончённое эстетическое наслаждение. Есть хорошая русская пословица: "Не бывает некрасивых женщин,бывает только мало водки" (шутка)

Of course if you can tune beatless unisons you can also tune lively unisons, but if all you can tune is lively unisons you can not tune pure unisons.

Kees, bravo. It is realy "alive unisons." I'm trying to do unisons, octaves, and especially B3 is alive. If some keys are flat I hear sounds, I'm looking for the cause and often slightly over lifting tone in choirs. Last 10 extreme bass strings(keys) do just below the total temperament

Хорошая темперация, с моей точки зрения, это не только качественно звучащие звуки в соответствии с законами классических устоев теории музыки.Это прежде всего эстетическое наслаждение исполнителя и слушателя от качественного разделения октавы на 12 равных отрезков.
Posted by: Bob

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 12:01 PM

A "live" unison still doesn't beat, it swishes, in my opinion. Max, please listen to as many properly tuned pianos as you can. Get some classical recordings. Look at some videos. Your tunings still need improvement.

Pianos I've tuned three years ago sound better than that upright you just tuned. Oh, when using a vacuum, wear ear protection. I agree with others comments on the grand.

Posted by: DoelKees

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 12:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
studies have shown that musicians like the unisons to be a little bit off.


What studies? Can you point us to them?

I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.

Roger E. Kirk, "Tuning preferences for Piano Unison Groups", J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 31 (1959): 1644-48.

Reviewed in Arthur H. Benade, "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics", 2nd ed. pp.335-336.

Kees
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 12:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Bob
A "live" unison still doesn't beat, it swishes, in my opinion.

I agree with you Bob. I shall improve myself in my tuning. It is arguable that there is a pure unison without beats. What is this? or an easy waves between the three strings is?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 12:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Bob

Pianos I've tuned three years ago sound better than that upright you just tuned.

I glad for your piano tuning after 3 years ago. But Max and many tech. wanted listen it's. Is it possible?
Posted by: Emmery

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 01:14 PM

Max, the unisons will couple together when they get close enough to each other. A very slight difference in frequency will average out between two or 3 strings so it is important to listen to the overall sound in the end. Many tuners have different methods to tune them. Although some tuners believe the reason for multiple strings on a note is to provide richness to the tone, its primary purpose is to boost the amplitude to similar levels as the lower single bass strings. To this effect, try and get the two and 3 string unisons to sound as one good string sounding by itself.

The first noticable thing to go out of tune on pianos are the unisons. They will get swishy unisons in short order if they are played regularly so I don't feel the need to speed up the process by tuning them that way to begin with. Besides, there is no predictable way to determine which string will drift which way so an purposeful deviation sharp or flat may turn ito a compound error if that string continues to drift in that direction. Doesn't take much to go from slow and swishy to what others would call clearly out of tune.
Posted by: Bob

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 01:34 PM

Max, how many pianos do you tune in a day? To practice and improve, tune at least four pianos a day - or tune the same piano four times a day (change the pitch 5 cents up and down each time). Tune four pianos a day, five days a week for two months, then post another video. During that time compare your tunings to recordings and try to find someone to spend an hour teaching you.

I would expect to hear a significant improvement in two months in your tunings if you practice like that.

I know things are difficult where you live - but difficult means work harder and overcome. Looking forward to a video in 2 months from you with audible improvements.
Posted by: Emmery

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 01:53 PM

Max, if someone has a cell phone around you there are many free apps for them that shows the tuning of notes in HZ. Have someone with a phone check your tuning fork or whatever your using for its accuracy. There is really no excuse for a tuned piano to be that far off from referance pitch.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/13 11:16 PM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
studies have shown that musicians like the unisons to be a little bit off.


What studies? Can you point us to them?

I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.

Roger E. Kirk, "Tuning preferences for Piano Unison Groups", J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 31 (1959): 1644-48.

Reviewed in Arthur H. Benade, "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics", 2nd ed. pp.335-336.

Kees

Probably more in appropriate in a unison tuning thread, but I uploaded the Kirk (a Baldwin employee btw) paper here. Hope it's legal and I won't end up like Aaron Swartz.

Kees
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 02:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Bob
Tune four pianos a day, five days a week for two months, then post another video. During that time compare your tunings to recordings and try to find someone to spend an hour teaching you.

Thank,Bob. If don't see this grand piano, then my main job is to try to restore the junk vertical. Which ultimately should resound. So before you start to tuning the "Belarus" I must first install the broken strings and put cardboard shim under pins. I'm must configure a semitone lower, otherwise there will be failure. I have not a possibility the tuning (2-3 piano) on the day .
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 02:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
To this effect, try and get the two and 3 string unisons to sound as one good string sounding by itself.

I'm try do it now
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 02:29 AM

Well, Kees, just look at Kirk's first two conclusions (highlights are mine).

Quote:
(1) The most preferred tuning conditions for three string unison groups are 1 and 2 cents maximum deviation among strings.
(2) Subjects with the longest history of musical performance prefer the least detuning of unison groups. The intragroup variability of these subjects with respect to tuning preferences is less than the variability of subjects having little or no musical training.


In the article, a mean of 1.6 to 1.7 cents is given. That is essentially still a beat-free unison, and results in a better sustain.

It is nothing like the unisons in Max's video. In fact, Kirk found that a 6 cent deviation was the least preferred.

So Kirk's article can certainly not be used to condone a tuning such as Max's.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 02:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Well, Kees, just look at Kirk's first two conclusions (highlights are mine).
So Kirk's article can certainly not be used to condone a tuning such as Max's.

Why? have Max's a more of these cents in clip?
Posted by: Emmery

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 12:42 PM

A 2 cent deviation on A440 would result in a noticable beat every two seconds. Unisons don't couple this far away from each other either. I hardly consider this as "essentially" clean or swishy or something to pursue for a slight increase in sustain. Its a "fail" as far as a unison goes....in my humble opinion anyways. (added) I know some customers of mine would call me to touch up a piano that displays this amount of disparity on unisons, or, stop using a tech that can do no better.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 12:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.

It is nothing like the unisons in Max's video. In fact, Kirk found that a 6 cent deviation was the least preferred.

So Kirk's article can certainly not be used to condone a tuning such as Max's.

*Sigh*. Nobody has said that.

The fourth rule for replying is:

4) Reply to what the poster wrote, not to what you imagine the poster was thinking.

Kees
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 12:51 PM

The most aggressive the tone is the most decoupling can help to lower the abrupness of the attack .

Then the level of ih of a piano allow more or less of this "opening" without the tone audibly beating.

The 2 cts difference is probably not always producing the beat level according to theory
Posted by: Emmery

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 01:06 PM

I guess there are both musicians and tuners who differ in their opinions of what a good unison should sound like. For the latter, it never used to be like this in the past. Some regard perfect unison clarity much like they do the state of pregnancy, it either exists, or it doesn't. Some consider the slight disparity of inharmonicity in the full spectrum of each string enough of a richness to the tone by itself and it requires no additional help with deliberate detuning. To the same effect, some regard the amount of sustain on the piano as sufficient, without the need for trying to induce more. Most likely of all, some tuners who can't tune nice clear unisons try and cover their tracks by suggesting the shortcoming is intentional or by design.
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 01:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Bob
Tune four pianos a day, five days a week for two months, then post another video. During that time compare your tunings to recordings and try to find someone to spend an hour teaching you.

Thank,Bob. If don't see this grand piano, then my main job is to try to restore the junk vertical. Which ultimately should resound. So before you start to tuning the "Belarus" I must first install the broken strings and put cardboard shim under pins. I'm must configure a semitone lower, otherwise there will be failure. I have not a possibility the tuning (2-3 piano) on the day .


Why will there be failure??? Because of your cardboard fix??? Then, fix it correctly, with larger tuning pins.

I wonder how much longer this thread will continue. It's so full of crap it isn't even funny.

Emmery is right. 2 cents off is a LOT. Bad tuners can't hear it. That's why the bad tuners continue arguing with the good tuners that can hear it.

Bad tuners, tune pianos 1/4 tone flat on purpose, thinking nothing of it and then make all sorts of excuses for why it has to be flat instead of fixing the problem and putting the piano on pitch.

Bad tuners make excuses for why unisons are horribly out of tune but, refuse to listen to good technicians advice on what to do to correct it. This is nuts!
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 02:12 PM

The thing is in the efficient use of the energy provided by the attack .

I feel that at some point there is only a huge "crack" full of aggressive noise.

This mean a lot of energy loss if that noise is allowed to keep its explisive behaviour , which is not really natural to the piano. If it where it would stay put, and the piano would not sound better a few hours later.

Comon, an actual tuner can tune a piano so it stay in tune for a few hours, I presume !

What I regret is that, among top experienced tuners, so little oc them have an analytic mind. Many have a good analytic ear, but the analyse is done whithout conscious thinking nor comparaison.

Many tuners I know tune with 3 different strings, so to have a maximum brillancy; I am way quieter when compared.

For some time I tuned "absolute" , as a result, too hard tone and "too clear" comments , from time to time.

I believe that the ETD s did a lot of harm to the unison tuning, strangely.

But in the end it is as much a voicing question than a tuning question, that is why there are so much differences, the spectrum is supposed to vary with power level, if it does not, or not enough, the tuner can be pushed in the wrong direction.
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 02:34 PM

In the end, the piano is out of tune.

In the end, the piano is off from pitch by at least 1/4 of a tone.

In the end, the voicing is terrible.

We have at least 3 different things going on here at the same time. An out of tune piano. An off from pitch piano, and bad voicing.

Either way you look at it. The piano is out of tune!

Good technicians can hear if a piano is out of tune immediately, or, if the note is held down for 30 seconds, or if the note is struck 2 or 3 times in a row, it does not matter. If a good tuner has a good ear, there is no room for argument. Only a bad tuner argues.

I tune with whatever method I so choose that brings me, the most satisfaction but, that method always, I repeat, always, has pure unisons. Impure unisons are not satisfactory. How many times must this be repeated in here?
Posted by: Emmery

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 03:12 PM

Energy/shhmenergy. If the pianist wants more energy in the sound, they simply add some downweight/speed in their touch. The attack is such a short period of time that few people even make notice of it, much like the thunk you hear from the key a few thousandths of a second before you hear the note....we tune it out because we tend to focus on the actual tone that follows. There is a nice fine balance of energy a properly sized piano for its environment will produce. With the way inverse square law of sound and distance works, there is no way to make everybody in an audience hear the same thing anyways. If I hear the opening single Db note of Liszt's Consolation 3 carried over several bars and its clean it gives depth to the RH pattern. If it wobbles even slightly, it interferes in an incredibly annoying way with the tempo of the right hand. It adds nothing energy/sustain wise that a little heavier touch could not produce without the swishy annoyance.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 03:47 PM

Well I am not talking about the recording I could not stand listening more than afew seconds.

Pianist have limited amount of energy availeable with touch, due to action saturation.

If you hear the key before the tone, you have not enough aftertouch (if you hear the tone before, you eventually have too much, and the energy of the key bump cannot add anything to tone)

The attack is so annoying for the tuner that the ear close and avoid listening at that moment, it is part of the tuner's training to get used to it. one of the most employed method to be able to tune with relaxed ears is to play the note repeatedly, this allow to tune sooner.
Another is to wear earplugs
another is to play softly enough

If the tuner is able to tune sooner (by listening more early in the attack) he begin to be able to preserve some energy of the attack for the tone, less is lost.

I agree it is a very short moment of course, but it can be thickened or stay thin.

When the tuning is opened the attack is discrete, but the raise in energy is better immediately after it and the dynamics is optimum.

If the attack is too much constrained I feel the attack as if it is a bawl that rebound at fast speed between twoo walls , loose energy and then only allow for a clear sustain.

Then the energy level left is lower than if the attack is pushed in the tone with a strong coupling at last at the 2nd partial level.

If the wanted effect is to have a huge concentration of tone immediately, no problem but it is OK for Jazz, the tone when played strong send too much partials at once, it sound like a trumpet note attack,brassy, witha huge "klang" that occurs soon in the dynamic plague.





Posted by: Phil D

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 04:11 PM

Isaac if you're not talking about the recording then this discussion belongs elsewhere. It is extremely difficult for anything constructive to come out of Max posting here, and it is made a lot worse by totally irrelevant discussions carrying on in his threads.

Some very charitable people are trying to help Max improve, but he seems to be quite a stubborn guy. He's been doing this for a long time without anybody to tell him it is wrong, on here we bombard him with so much information, in a language he barely speaks, and we expect him to improve?

It's quite horrible to watch him get ripped to shreds by unsympathetic professionals. People simply can't comprehend how big the gap is between his and our experiences.

Max, keep working on those unisons! Make sure you are using your mutes so you are only tuning one string while listening to another.
Posted by: Emmery

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 08:02 PM

Phil, I do agree with you that people should leave out the crude/rude labels when the topic at hand is Max's tuning, not his character.
Isaac, perhaps your level of tuning has got to the point where you feel experimental or the need to pursue something beyond what you consider a plain good tuning. Your obviously satisfying some internal need for perfection as you envision it. I don't agree with you about a unison needing any tweaking more that just sounding like the same darn note, but just a little louder with that extra string(s) beside it.

I see the piano as a single purpose instrument, not a synthesizer in this respect, and feel that it doesn't require tweaking past its own natural tone (if that tone is pleasant). I think however it would be distracting and counterproductive for a neophyte like Max to aim for anything other than getting a clean sounding note with a unison.

I have never in my life heard a top notch tuner feel brazen enough to negatively criticise a tuning because they felt the unisons were "too clean". Yeah, I've heard of so and so big name tuners giving a lecture on messing with unisons at the annual cheese melts, but no tech ever lost a job or their credibility by getting a 3 string unison to sound like 1. That is what Max should strive for.

When we started learning tuning at college the first thing we learned was unisons, and we worked on them until the day we left...it is probably the hardest thing in tuning to perfect and remain consistant with. Even to this day, if I find myself lingering on something too long in a tuning, its usually a troublesome unison, not a temperament/octave or a stretch. There was a point early on that I thought a unison was good and my teacher would come in, twist the hammer this way and that and it sounded better. It is one of the easiest things in a tuning to feel misleadingly content with. After all, you have to start moving a pin around to determine if it can be any better and at the same time you feel a strong need to move on to the next note in order to finish.
Posted by: accordeur

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 08:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Phil, I do agree with you that people should leave out the crude/rude labels when the topic at hand is Max's tuning, not his character.
Isaac, perhaps your level of tuning has got to the point where you feel experimental or the need to pursue something beyond what you consider a plain good tuning. Your obviously satisfying some internal need for perfection as you envision it. I don't agree with you about a unison needing any tweaking more that just sounding like the same darn note, but just a little louder with that extra string(s) beside it. I see the piano as a single purpose instrument, not a synthesizer in this respect, and feel that it doesn't require tweaking past its own natural tone (if that tone is pleasant). I think however it would be distracting and counterproductive for a neophyte like Max to aim for anything other than getting a clean sounding note with a unison. I have never in my life heard a top notch tuner feel brazen enough to negatively criticise a tuning because they felt the unisons were "too clean". Yeah, I've heard of so and so big name tuners giving a lecture on messing with unisons at the annual cheese melts, but no tech ever lost a job or their credibility by getting a 3 string unison to sound like 1. That is what Max should strive for. When we started learning tuning at college the first thing we learned was unisons, and we worked on them until the day we left...it is probably the hardest thing in tuning to perfect and remain consistant with. Even to this day, if I find myself lingering on something too long in a tuning, its usually a troublesome unison, not a temperament/octave or a stretch. There was a point early on that I thought a unison was good and my teacher would come in, twist the hammer this way and that and it sounded better. It is one of the easiest things in a tuning to feel misleadingly content with. After all, you have to start moving a pin around to determine if it can be any better and at the same time you feel a strong need to move on to the next note in order to finish.


That is very well said!

P.S. Paragraphs would be nice as well.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 10:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Bob
Tune four pianos a day, five days a week for two months, then post another video. During that time compare your tunings to recordings and try to find someone to spend an hour teaching you.

Thank,Bob. If don't see this grand piano, then my main job is to try to restore the junk vertical. Which ultimately should resound. So before you start to tuning the "Belarus" I must first install the broken strings and put cardboard shim under pins. I'm must configure a semitone lower, otherwise there will be failure. I have not a possibility the tuning (2-3 piano) on the day .


Why will there be failure??? Because of your cardboard fix??? Then, fix it correctly, with larger tuning pins.


Only the application of corrugated cardboard shim is possible make quality and long to provide the necessary friction between the pins and the pinblock. The use of oversize pin copse is deeply misleading and it's harm for piano
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/15/13 10:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
I guess there are both musicians and tuners who differ in their opinions of what a good unison should sound like. For the latter, it never used to be like this in the past. Some regard perfect unison clarity much like they do the state of pregnancy, it either exists, or it doesn't. Some consider the slight disparity of inharmonicity in the full spectrum of each string enough of a richness to the tone by itself and it requires no additional help with deliberate detuning. To the same effect, some regard the amount of sustain on the piano as sufficient, without the need for trying to induce more. Most likely of all, some tuners who can't tune nice clear unisons try and cover their tracks by suggesting the shortcoming is intentional or by design.

Max tries, but still does not work, but he is full of energy and enthusiasm to move on. He must find a clean unison. However, " A people see the taste and color is different "
"На вкус и цвет, товарища нет".
Posted by: Withindale

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 02:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Max tries, but still does not work, but he is full of energy and enthusiasm to move on. He must find a clean unison. However, " A people see the taste and color is different". "На вкус и цвет, товарища нет".

The clearest explanation of unison tuning I have seen begins, Gabriel Weinreich (I hope I am spelling it right), published "The Coupled Motion Of Piano Strings" in the late 70's. The gist of his research was that the coupled motion required, at times, that the strings not be tuned to the exact same pitch in order to produce the longest sustain and clearest sounding tone.

The full post is here.
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 03:14 AM

Originally Posted By: accordeur
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Phil, I do agree with you that people should leave out the crude/rude labels when the topic at hand is Max's tuning, not his character.
Isaac, perhaps your level of tuning has got to the point where you feel experimental or the need to pursue something beyond what you consider a plain good tuning. Your obviously satisfying some internal need for perfection as you envision it. I don't agree with you about a unison needing any tweaking more that just sounding like the same darn note, but just a little louder with that extra string(s) beside it. I see the piano as a single purpose instrument, not a synthesizer in this respect, and feel that it doesn't require tweaking past its own natural tone (if that tone is pleasant). I think however it would be distracting and counterproductive for a neophyte like Max to aim for anything other than getting a clean sounding note with a unison. I have never in my life heard a top notch tuner feel brazen enough to negatively criticise a tuning because they felt the unisons were "too clean". Yeah, I've heard of so and so big name tuners giving a lecture on messing with unisons at the annual cheese melts, but no tech ever lost a job or their credibility by getting a 3 string unison to sound like 1. That is what Max should strive for. When we started learning tuning at college the first thing we learned was unisons, and we worked on them until the day we left...it is probably the hardest thing in tuning to perfect and remain consistant with. Even to this day, if I find myself lingering on something too long in a tuning, its usually a troublesome unison, not a temperament/octave or a stretch. There was a point early on that I thought a unison was good and my teacher would come in, twist the hammer this way and that and it sounded better. It is one of the easiest things in a tuning to feel misleadingly content with. After all, you have to start moving a pin around to determine if it can be any better and at the same time you feel a strong need to move on to the next note in order to finish.


That is very well said!

P.S. Paragraphs would be nice as well.


+1.

In such an elegant stream of cohesive thought, I can forgive paragraphure (paragraphageing?)...paragravery. That's the word.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 07:19 AM

Thanks for your interest gentlemen

Emmery I agree that you can describe an unison as hearing one string, I would add more or less thick.

I confirm you can tune non beating unisons and have a bland too clear tone.

It is not a question of beats nor "too clean"

An unison is supoosed to be clean, it is a question of life in tone, and musicality .

Maxim is not a beginner tuner, as I see it he write since 2 years on that forum , and recived a lot of help from most of us.

If Max did not understood yet and hear what is an unison, probably he better look for other occupations than tuning, or only focus on the repairs, regulation, etc.

An unison between 2 strings is like railroads, they go all along the same direction without touching one another.

I suspect Max does not want to WORK tuning, as he may have some results if he did follow a little the advices given.


What I write is for general purpose and for anyone interested, When I hear some tunings I know I can talk of unison and not only that, indeed. Musicians need the tuner to be an artist himself (while I dont consider myself as so creative I mostly want my tuning to hold for the longer possible time, and to sound clear, full and dynamic)

It is indeed easy to finish a hair aside the nicer tone, because of ear's fatigue, bad analysis of tone, too much straightening.

Then the piano because of its own voice will correct that to a point.

I found advantageaous to install the tuning in a tone which is natural to the piano, not to force it one way of the other as you think

Between top tuners the unison cn tone slightly differntly, musicaisn recognize that, and others tuners too, as ther is always an "level of opening" parameter, and a "level of energy at the attack also"

Not only avoicing question, as asked to Pierre Laurent Aimard the tuner in the movie Pianomania " do you wnat the tone to go straight and strong to the ceiling , or do you want it to fullfill the place and go around ?" (PL Aymard answered "both" wink )
What he talk of is attack managment , plus voicing, but you dont change the whole voicing for a concert, ypou modify the regulation so the timing of the hammer bumb is more or less synchro with the key bottoming

So you can obtain 2 perfectly clear unisons, one with a thicker attack and more warm specra, one with a dicrete attack and enlarged specra.

You can strenghten the fundamental plus all the partials at once, but then the crown of the hammer must be lively.

On an old piano with hard strings , not enough partials, adn much differnce in specrta between each string, you can "hide the defects" by tuning all the notes the same with a similar "woosh" in the tone, that help to mask the beats the strings will produce if you try to tune them too clear, but this is an extreme case.

I will record experiments someday.

Before ETD nobody would argue about a few cts, pianos where tuned and nobody complained.

regards
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 07:45 AM

Emmery said " It is one of the easiest things in a tuning to feel misleadingly content with. After all, you have to start moving a pin around to determine if it can be any better and at the same time you feel a strong need to move on to the next note in order to finish."

Yes I agree that ear fatigue, position, can lend to misleading unison.

That is why I find so important to be able to analyse and organize it.

Hopefully you are not obliged to "turn" the pin to check for the quality of your unison, pushing/pulling on the tuning lever is generally enough (unless rendering is so poor)
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 10:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Max tries, but still does not work, but he is full of energy and enthusiasm to move on. He must find a clean unison. However, " A people see the taste and color is different". "На вкус и цвет, товарища нет".

The clearest explanation of unison tuning I have seen begins, Gabriel Weinreich (I hope I am spelling it right), published "The Coupled Motion Of Piano Strings" in the late 70's. The gist of his research was that the coupled motion required, at times, that the strings not be tuned to the exact same pitch in order to produce the longest sustain and clearest sounding tone.

The full post is here.

Thank Withindale,Weinreich unisons(wasTuneoff)!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 11:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin

An unison between 2 strings is like railroads, they go all along the same direction without touching one another.

It's more of an ideal. In reality unison must be "live" with a barely perceptible beats. This is not the fact that the tuner can not hear, he just wants to paint the sounds. There are also objective factors uneven unison:
1 Poor hold pin
2 the differential cross section of strings
3 additional waves adjacent strings in the chorus
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 11:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin

I suspect Max does not want to WORK tuning, as he may have some results if he did follow a little the advices given.


Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development
Posted by: BDB

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 11:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin

An unison between 2 strings is like railroads, they go all along the same direction without touching one another.

It's more of an ideal. In reality unison must be "live" with a barely perceptible beats. This is not the fact that the tuner can not hear, he just wants to paint the sounds. There are also objective factors uneven unison:
1 Poor hold pin
2 the differential cross section of strings
3 additional waves adjacent strings in the chorus


All of these are excuses for not doing a good job.

1. There are few pianos that hold so poorly that the unisons cannot be tuned properly. You can usually see the tuning hammer turn on those when you let it go.
2. There should be no difference in the cross section of strings, and even if there is, it should not affect the tuning enough to be audible.
3. The difference between adjacent strings in a choir is what you are trying to eliminate.

The main reasons unisons will be as far off from exact as yours are, are lack of skill and care by the tuner! You need to be able to tune unisons as exactly as possible.

A good way to test for unisons is to listen to the beats in a moderately fast beating interval with a single string, and then with the string that you have tuned in unison with it. If the beats change, your unison is not good enough.

Enough people have told you your tuning is not adequate. Stop arguing and start working on improving your tuning!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 11:38 AM

Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
[quote=Kamin]
An unison between 2 strings is like railroads, they go all along the same direction without touching one another.

Enough people have told you your tuning is not adequate.

"not adequate" is insulting expression. Please be condescending Max's. "Tuning the Max-not made perfect" is correct
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 11:51 AM

yes , beats may not be audible, it is easy to be confused between beats and coupling 2 strings (as the coupling rarely can occur for all the partials and the fundamental, some "move" can be perceived)

There is yet a large space where a beat between 2 strings can stay unnoticed, because it is at the same speed that the lowering of the strength of the note in time.

That is why what allows to hear unison is more the energetic answer of the note. Then if some beat remain it may be chased .

It oblige to use the playing hand precisely and to perceive well the rebound of the hammer that say to the ear : "listen, open"

beats in unison are heard even from far, the quality of tone is "greasy"
,
It is possible to have the partials "caught" by the fundamental that mean, partials couple in the fundamental. generally the note is then moaning a little and the dynamic levels out too soon.

It is better to couple the partials, the fundamental have then a better tone.

None of those solutions produce audible beats. the tone projects out of the piano, clear, strong and focused.

I believe that it is basically the delay between the coupling at fundamental level and the one at the 2nd partial level that is worked, the instrument does the rest of the job itself.

Bad voicing is a big hassle for tuning.

Laquer on the strike zone makes lot of trouble. also the acidity of tone is enhanced by the too low pitch (iH raise)

Very difficult to tune correctly a piano with that tone. at last a strong brushing of the hammers with a metal brush should be done before tuning, but those hammers are shot, probably hard rock because of impregnation.

No dynamic (playing strong or lightly)
No lenght of tone

probable huge imprints make the hammer "slap" the strings.
There is no other choice than brush the edges of the imprints so to have some fluffy felt that will adbsorb a little the extra partials produced. Softening the zone on the outer of the imprints is even better (plus the fluffing of the felt)

The piano begin to correct itself in the second part of the concert, unison follow the most direct path to equilibrium, hence the tone is slightly better.

I cannot say for the temperament or tuning as it sound so much out of tune, also because of the pitch.
Posted by: BDB

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 12:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
[quote=Kamin]
An unison between 2 strings is like railroads, they go all along the same direction without touching one another.

Enough people have told you your tuning is not adequate.

"not adequate" is insulting expression. Please be condescending Max's. "Tuning the Max-not made perfect" is correct


"Not adequate" is an honest assessment. What you call tuning is an insult to the pianists who have to put up with it. It is an insult to those who have sent you equipment and have tried to help you, and "insult" may be too soft a term. You could be an outright fraud.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 12:37 PM

No way to tune successful unison on such an instrument anyway, voicing may be done first.
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 01:05 PM

I must disagree with you there Kamin. You first need to tune the best possible tuning before there's any point in addressing voicing. As to the subject matter of this thread ... If Max actually did tune this grand for the concert, I must admit that he has most certainly improved.

The tuning remains pretty dreadful compared to a normal concert tuning, and as far as commenting about temperament .... it's one that I have never heard before.

Max has far to go and is best advised to try listening to all the good advice being imparted by tuners that really can tune, instead of constantly arguing and promoting cardboard fixes.

If Max really wants comments on a temperament then for goodness sake tune the initial 12 notes and make a video to demonstrate the relationship of intervals.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 01:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
I must disagree with you there Kamin. You first need to tune the best possible tuning before there's any point in addressing voicing.


Well if tuning hurt your ears too much it is really difficult. Of course you may voice after tuning (you cannot really voice an untuned piano) but you certainly see what I mean, no sustain, no dynamics, tuning is really limited then and have to be done again after voicing

I agree that there is an improvement, it was not really audible in the first video, it was horrible, to listen.

The pins seem to be set even if possibly not strong
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 03:01 PM


Originally Posted By: BDB
"Not adequate" is an honest assessment. What you call tuning is an insult to the pianists who have to put up with it. It is an insult to those who have sent you equipment and have tried to help you, and "insult" may be too soft a term. You could be an outright fraud.


The equipment sent to Max did not involve anyone but myself and a fellow in Sweden.

The below was posted by Max on January 14th. It seems to me from what I read apparently the instrument was low pitch the day previous to the concert and some strings were replaced.

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Dear Emmery, I am glad to receive your message. I sorry that you have to devote a lot of time analyzing my clip's tuning.
I took tuning a grand because really wanted to do it. In our country town no professional piano tuner and music school administrator asked me made temperament. My fee was $ 13. «Bluthner" for many years set (A = 438). Prior to the concert was less than a day. I began to move with this tone, because he was afraid to break the strings. Replace torn, there is no opportunity here. After the concert, I checked temperament. I did not catch the big differences for yourself. Fa3 note was slightly lower. Good not sounded as H4, F# 4 so. I did a temperament as I could. I will heed the advice of tech. experts for increase their own skills.


If the instrument was pitched corrected a couple of weeks previous to the concert, and then fine tuned the day before I suspect the initial recording would have come out sound better than it has.
Posted by: BDB

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 03:11 PM

One should not make excuses for a recording posted as an example of how well someone tunes. If it is a lousy tuning and you know it, there is no need for feedback. The only tunings that should be posted for feedback are one's best.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 03:22 PM



Max does not have any peers nor does he have a mentor. What he does have is intermittent access to this forum.

If stomping on the guy is viewed as a pleasurable and stimulating experience then Max is not the only one I feel compassion for.
Posted by: BDB

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 04:22 PM

It would be better if he learned to criticize himself, but Max needs to accept criticism rather than being insulted by it, and being insulting about it. His improvement would be much better, and I would find more pleasure and stimulation in helping him if his attitude were better.
Posted by: Phil D

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 05:16 PM

His cantankerousness reminds me of you, BDB... wink

But you're right. Unfortunately he's been doing this a long time without having any peers, and is very proud of what he does.

Teaching him to tune properly across a massive language barrier over the internet is a big task!
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 05:44 PM


Originally Posted By: BDB
It would be better if he learned to criticize himself, but Max needs to accept criticism rather than being insulted by it, and being insulting about it. His improvement would be much better, and I would find more pleasure and stimulation in helping him if his attitude were better.


On free forums, I assist without expectation or conditions attached. If there are certain conditions to having involvement then perhaps a re- assessment is necessary on your part.
Posted by: Emmery

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 06:27 PM

A couple suggestions, first for Max...

Keep working at it. Study some more about tuning, you still have a long way to go. Ignore insults. If you are going to post a tuning, maybe record a before and after tape. It lets people put things in better perspective of what conditions the pianos are in that you face. I worked in parts of eastern europe 20 years ago where I lifted the lid on the piano and I swear, it could have flown away on its own from all the moths that came out. Missing or rusted strings, felt held in place with snot, shoelace/pully trap work ect.... A shoemaker was my only source for materials.

For others, maybe follow the golden rule. People from Germany don't come here to this site and ridicule Y'all for the N.A. version of a half a**ed repair, laugh at the powder wig temperaments, or comment on digital spinner crutch tuning clips. They prefer to sit around a table and spray beer out of their noses laughing instead.
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 07:06 PM

Quote:

Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development


Max doesn't accept constructive criticism. Instead, he gives it.... to us... The people he is asking for help. For example, like using cardboard to fix a loose tuning pin instead of a larger sized pin, then tuning the piano a semi tone flat because it won't take the pitch raise? He tells us that a larger sized pin will do damage to the hole. A person like that is not going to get much respect from us and we, should not be expected to give it either. But I can, leave this thread and Max to his own demise, whatever that might be and I will.

Kamin says Max has been in here for 2 years now so, he's more experienced. 2 years gives experience? I've known people that have been tuning pianos for 30 years and they still can't tune.

So how many years haven't some of the rest of us been tuning? Me? Since I was 12. That makes it 45 years this spring. I should be reallllllllllllllllllly good by now eh??? haha! smile

If a person wants constructive and objectionable criticism and asks for it, then that same person had better accept it rather than argue with people that are telling him that his tuning needs improvement. Don't tell me that it sounds good and that out of tune unison's sound okay when they do not. Because we will not agree.

So Max, if you want people to be nice to you? Be nice to them.... OK?
Posted by: accordeur

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 07:20 PM

I wanted to help Max at first. I even put up a youtube video to show how to rebush a flange.

One tech even sent him a hammer. His videos afterwards, he was still using his t-bar.

The language barrier is what kept me hoping that he was genuinely interested in improving.

Now, language barrier or not, geez.

Max, I never get to the end of your videos. I don't understand a word, you look like you are teaching a lesson, and you obviously are not good enough to do that.

Listen to the good advice that is given here. Be grateful, ask questions.

Who knows? You started a topic and some of us are still writing.

All the best.

Jean
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 10:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin

I suspect Max does not want to WORK tuning, as he may have some results if he did follow a little the advices given.


Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development

Speaking as a musician with a lifelong interest in tuning, not as a piano technician, I think this sounds fine. Given the state of the piano, which is not up to USA concert standards, it is not clear if you could do better with just tuning (as opposed to revoicing etc). I believe Kamin from France believes this too.

When I listen I am more concerned with the excessive tempi and the seriousness of the playing. After all Mozart was a silly drunk, and his compositions show it. It should not be played as if it was profound. (Warning: peculiar personal opinion.)

There are definitely unisons which stand out as being "bad". But as you mentioned before, this can be due to the "cross sections" not matching, meaning false beats. I can (and will if requested politely) post a unison A3 on my piano, which sounds worse than the "bad" unisons in your recording. Yet if 5 top piano tuners from the Western world would spend 3 hours on it they would not be able to improve it. (They are of course not allowed to replace the strings.)

Why? Because the strings don't match (what the DBD anymous poster said "should not be so").

Now listening to the Mozart I can hardly believe this is the same tuning as you posted before because it sounds so much better. But it may be my own mind that likes music. The compositions played in the first video of this concert I do no consider to be music. This is my (admittedly eccentric) opinion.

More generally I think if you had not tuned that Blüthner there would have been no concert. So obviously you did a good thing. Did it have 4 strings in the upper octave? Did you tune those too? The piano sounds worse to me in the upper octaves.

Finally, did the concert organizer and piano teachers of the players give you any feedback on the tuning?

After all a piano tuner should make the customer happy, and that is the most important thing.

Another good result of your post is that Dan Silverwood made some good posts. I thought I hated him, but this made me change my mind.

Tongue in cheek of course on the latter remarks.

Kees
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 10:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
If Max actually did tune this grand for the concert, I must admit that he has most certainly improved.

Thank,Johnkie for good words and max works
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 10:57 PM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin

I suspect Max does not want to WORK tuning, as he may have some results if he did follow a little the advices given.


Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development



Now listening to the Mozart I can hardly believe this is the same tuning as you posted before because it sounds so much better.

Thank,Kees.I'm shall try and develop skills
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/16/13 11:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Quote:

Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development


So Max, if you want people to be nice to you? Be nice to them.... OK?

Max, always pleasure with all
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 12:59 AM

Not only has Max improved in 2 years but, in looking back through his original threads, they have been an incredible catalyst for change in all of us.

Max was met with incredibly parochial self righteous condemnation from some posters. It became clear very early that the only way was through education.

This attempt at education has tempered those condemning attitudes, those same people are now posting advice and encouragement.

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.

Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Something had to change.... and we did.

Here's to its continuing

Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 10:27 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.
Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Not all pianos in the forgotten by God Kazakhstan to tuning in the right tone. However, the message rxd is a philosophical essay, mobilizes the presence of mind of Max.
Max is very happy that him was able its modest presence on the forum make a live stream in the discussions every themes.
Max will work and he shall listen all
My respect to the participants in our forum
Posted by: ando

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 10:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.
Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Not all pianos in the forgotten by God Kazakhstan to tuning in the right tone. However, the message rxd is a philosophical essay, mobilizes the presence of mind of Max.
Max is very happy that him was able its modest presence on the forum make a live stream in the discussions every themes.
Max will work and he shall listen all
My respect to the participants in our forum


I've never met anybody from Kazakhstan, but I always wanted to know how Kazakhstanis feel about the movie "Borat"? Are you angry about it?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 10:53 AM

Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.
Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Not all pianos in the forgotten by God Kazakhstan to tuning in the right tone. However, the message rxd is a philosophical essay, mobilizes the presence of mind of Max.
Max is very happy that him was able its modest presence on the forum make a live stream in the discussions every themes.
Max will work and he shall listen all
My respect to the participants in our forum


I've never met anybody from Kazakhstan, but I always wanted to know how Kazakhstanis feel about the movie "Borat"? Are you angry about it?


ando,I personally have not seen the movie, just a few excerpts. I'm not offended by Borat, art lies in the fact that to make people think from joke. To tell the truth, the life in Kazakhstan is much "comical than this travesty"
Posted by: AndyJ

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 11:18 AM

Originally Posted By: ando

I've never met anybody from Kazakhstan, but I always wanted to know how Kazakhstanis feel about the movie "Borat"? Are you angry about it?

A couple of years ago I caught up with a cousin who immigrated from Moscow in the Seventies. She grew up in Kazakhstan thanks to Stalin's anti-Semitic purges, but eventually her father was able to reclaim his appointment as a professor of music at Moscow State University. She's a very proper and respectable lady and I didn't dare ask her about Borat. Of course the joke in the film is meant to be that Baron-Cohen's victims are so ignorant, but I'm sure a lot of people never catch on to that subtlety.

Andy
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 11:34 AM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin

I suspect Max does not want to WORK tuning, as he may have some results if he did follow a little the advices given.


Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development


More generally I think if you had not tuned that Blüthner there would have been no concert. So obviously you did a good thing. Did it have 4 strings in the upper octave? Did you tune those too? The piano sounds worse to me in the upper octaves.

Finally, did the concert organizer and piano teachers of the players give you any feedback on the tuning?

Hi,Kees. The concert was held to the weather."Show must go on". This grand, how to express their feeling of one of the teachers of piano last time sounded like far in 1982, when visited Uralsk was moscow's tuner. I was pleased to hear the words of appreciation from the audience, and most importantly from artists of Chrismas concert .
Indeed I tuning alivkvont fourth string, which is higher than the other one octave higher. I did it intuitively, some of them were so configured. I tried not to make a mistake and I did pulling the string an octave higher. Maybe I'm wrong to do this?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 11:43 AM

Originally Posted By: AndyJ
Originally Posted By: ando

I've never met anybody from Kazakhstan, but I always wanted to know how Kazakhstanis feel about the movie "Borat"? Are you angry about it?

Of course the joke in the film is meant to be that Baron-Cohen's victims are so ignorant, but I'm sure a lot of people never catch on to that subtlety.

Andy,Borat and Kazakhstan do not know about each other it's to happiness
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 11:58 AM

The hall in your videos intrigues me. Is it a school hall, church hall, town hall??

As in most places, there are many different cultural levels. Your area of Kazakhstan doesn't seem to lack some of the finer things in life, Max.

To be fair, Borat also pokes fun at some areas of American culture, as I remember.

I have always advised listening to many pianists playing the same instrument to demonstrate how much of the tone quality is dependent on the player. Here is a good example where many of us could swear that the piano had some tuning before the last clip. All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.
Posted by: ando

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 12:28 PM

Originally Posted By: rxd


To be fair, Borat also pokes fun at some areas of American culture, as I remember.


Indeed. Much more so than Kazakhstan in fact.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 12:30 PM

Originally Posted By: rxd
The hall in your videos intrigues me. Is it a school hall, church hall, town hall??

As in most places, there are many different cultural levels. Your area of Kazakhstan doesn't seem to lack some of the finer things in life, Max.

I have always advised listening to many pianists playing the same instrument to demonstrate how much of the tone quality is dependent on the player. Here is a good example where many of us could swear that the piano had some tuning before the last clip. All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


This school of music hall of Uralsk. Girls graduates of this school. Now they continue their education at various conservatories in Russia and Kazakhstan. While on vacation, they visited a hometown.
Beautiful things around us is an illusion given to us in sensation. We must create a celebrate within ourselves despite "gloomy atmosphere around us." In Uralsk music concerts is one only outlet from reality. I am grateful that I can involved in the holiday.
I appreciate you found the different color tones in their play. I caught myself thinking, which also heard any paint. Despite some flaws myself tuning, the girls successfully completed the show
Glory MUSIC!
Posted by: Emmery

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 06:33 PM

Originally Posted By: rxd
... All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


Piece being played was in a different key, most likely case. A bit of a topsy turvy temperament will do that.

On a positive note, if someone can stomach a G-D 5th (in EBVT III)that beats twice as fast as a normal ET 5th without feeling like a person looking at the bottom of their shoe in a dog park, Maxs' temperament could be a calling card for a glitzy cyrillic name like CиKT 1... Случайные избиение казахско темперамент. Random Beating Kazakh Temperament.
Posted by: David Jenson

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 09:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
... Random Beating Kazakh Temperament.
So that's what it is. 'Pretty good. Kazakhstan gave us the apple tree, and now a whole new temperament to argue about.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 10:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: rxd
... All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


Случайные избиение казахско темперамент.

In Russian it sounds like this:
"Случайные биения казахской темперации"
Posted by: Bob

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 10:05 PM

I'm starting to wonder is Max is for real. Somewhere, someone is laughing at all of us!
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 11:04 PM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Not only has Max improved in 2 years but, in looking back through his original threads, they have been an incredible catalyst for change in all of us.

Max was met with incredibly parochial self righteous condemnation from some posters. It became clear very early that the only way was through education.

This attempt at education has tempered those condemning attitudes, those same people are now posting advice and encouragement.

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.

Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Something had to change.... and we did.

Here's to its continuing


I said before: If I want to hear a sermon I'll go to church.

Maybe I'll change my mind on that rxd; I really enjoyed this online sermon by you.

Kees
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/17/13 11:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: rxd
... All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


Piece being played was in a different key, most likely case. A bit of a topsy turvy temperament will do that.


Yes, of course, that is indeed the most likely case but it is more than that. I was mainly listening to the whole different approach to the keyboard each of them had different styles of attack giving different colours other than the key color and the balance of parts that can disguise to some extent the variances of the tuning even on the same notes. (a friend of mine used to say ' it's a different piece but it has a lot of the same notes').
I
Originally Posted By: Bob
I'm starting to wonder is Max is for real. Somewhere, someone is laughing at all of us!


I've wondered that myself, Bob, in fact, we were ridiculed for helping Max on a private thread in another forum and who knows where else. Attempts at ridicule really don't matter in the long haul.
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/18/13 12:12 AM


""Indeed I tuning alivkvont fourth string, which is higher than the other one octave higher. I did it intuitively, some of them were so configured. I tried not to make a mistake and I did pulling the string an octave higher. Maybe I'm wrong to do this?[/quote] ""

Im sure you already figured it out but, for future reference, Max, the aliquots that are half the speaking length are tuned an octave higher, the ones where the speaking length is the same are tuned unison or a little higher. The aliquots in the newer pianos are only in the top section and can be more clearly heard than in the old ones and the are all unisons. It is often possible to disguise a false beat by carefully placing the aliquot. Always on the sharp side, though.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/18/13 04:40 AM

Those aliquot strings are tuned similarly as the "ballast" string in a common unison, just by changing the shape of the envelope of the tone (I mean no need to pluck the aliquot string unless it is grossly out of tune)

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat
Posted by: Phil D

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/18/13 08:29 AM

I'm loving the mental picture of an embarrassed unison! laugh
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/18/13 09:43 AM

Some of the old style aliquots were an embarrassment when they got old. It seemed to me that the brass post got loose in the bridge and didn't transfer the vibrations. They just went thunk when plucked and had no sustain. The new ones are audible and sustain as well as the struck strings and are not such an embarrassment to the unison. I, too, like that poetic way of saying it.
Posted by: erichlof

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/18/13 09:54 AM

blush
Posted by: pppat

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/18/13 06:14 PM

Hi Max (and all others, too),

you are getting a lot of good suggestions from other posters here. I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off. I recorded my piano tonight, and here are the sound files:

First, I tuned the left and right strings of D4 to the center string with an electronic tuning device. After that, the unison sounded like this:
L/R strings tuned to center string, Reyburn Cybertuner

There is a little bit of sizzling partials there, so I checked the single strings. They sounded like this:
D4, strings one-by-one

The left string was indeed a bit "busy" in itself. I tweaked the unison aurally, and this is what I came up with:
L/R to center string, aurally

Then I detuned the right string +1 cent and the left string -1 cent, giving a unison that is 2 cents wide in its frequency range:
Detuning the unison: L -1 cent, R +1 cent

Can you hear how that unison "moans"? It sounds like there's an effect on it, like a chorus or flanger pedal used for guitars.

I tuned them back, and I post that file, too. You can hear how I'm working with the tuning hammer and with the hand hitting the keys. When the strings fall into place, the sound is longer, clearer and more powerful than if the strings do not couple with each other:
re-tuning the unison

This is the kind of sound you should be looking for in your unison tuning. Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!

Hope this helps,
Patrick



Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/19/13 03:58 AM

Originally Posted By: pppat

I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off.
Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!

Patrick,Terveisiä Kazakhstana. Maksim erittäin mielelläni sinua ilmaisia ​​neuvoja. Halusin kysyä, miten pidit pianomusiikkia konsertissa?
Thank you for your message. Fortunately I understand things about "wrong-sounding in choirs." You have done a great job of creating these audio files. I will post them on my website. I hope this will be helpful in understanding the piano unison Russian-speaking beginners tuner.
Sincerely,
Posted by: pppat

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/19/13 10:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Patrick,Terveisiä Kazakhstana. Maksim erittäin mielelläni sinua ilmaisia ​​neuvoja. Halusin kysyä, miten pidit pianomusiikkia konsertissa?


Terve Max smile Pidin musiikista ja soittamisesta, mutta piano oli rehellisesti sanoen sellaisessa kunnossa että oli varmasti vaikeaa tehdä hyvää musiikkia sillä. Tätä huolimatta konsertti oli varmasti elämys kuuntelijoille, ja sehän on ehkä kuitenkin tärkein.

Translation from Finnish, the language Max adressed me in when he wrote his last post:

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Patrick, greetings from Kazakhstan. I am very grateful for your free advice. I'd like to ask how you liked the piano music in the concert?


'Hi Max smile I liked the music and the playing, but honestly speaking the piano was in a shape that no doubt made it hard to make good music on it. This set aside, the concert was admittedly an experience to the audience, and that might be most important of all.'
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/19/13 11:09 AM

Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Patrick,Terveisiä Kazakhstana. Maksim erittäin mielelläni sinua ilmaisia ​​neuvoja. Halusin kysyä, miten pidit pianomusiikkia konsertissa?


Terve Max smile Pidin musiikista ja soittamisesta, mutta piano oli rehellisesti sanoen sellaisessa kunnossa että oli varmasti vaikeaa tehdä hyvää musiikkia sillä. Tätä huolimatta konsertti oli varmasti elämys kuuntelijoille, ja sehän on ehkä kuitenkin tärkein.

Patrick,ymmärsin sinut. Temperamentti tulevaisuudessa yritän tehdä sen hyvin hyvä
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/19/13 11:15 AM

Originally Posted By: BDB
I would find more pleasure and stimulation in helping him if his attitude were better.

BDB,I have nothing against you personally. If I am offended you, I apologize
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/19/13 11:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
I lifted the lid on the piano and I swear, it could have flown away on its own from all the moths that came out. Missing or rusted strings, felt held in place with snot

Routine Max's days
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/19/13 11:30 AM

Originally Posted By: accordeur

Max, I never get to the end of your videos. I don't understand a word, you look like you are teaching a lesson, and you obviously are not good enough to do that.

My films are address for simply laymen who are trying to repair their own piano
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/19/13 11:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Bob
I'm starting to wonder is Max is for real. Somewhere, someone is laughing at all of us!

Max ridiculed and persecuted many really alive!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/19/13 11:41 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd

""Indeed I tuning alivkvont fourth string, which is higher than the other one octave higher. I did it intuitively, some of them were so configured. I tried not to make a mistake and I did pulling the string an octave higher. Maybe I'm wrong to do this?
""

the ones where the speaking length is the same are tuned unison or a little higher. [/quote]
Thank rxd,that's what I wanted to know
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/19/13 03:59 PM


Max,
From G47 to C# 65 is one octave higher. This section

Blüthner treble section

From D66 to C88 is tuned same as unison.

This section

High treble
Posted by: pppat

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/19/13 04:53 PM

Max,

regarding unison tuning, I think every tuner - including very good ones - has been in a concert where his/her unisons started to drift. It is a truly gruesome thing... I can't talk about it any more for now, because I will lose a good night's sleep if I continue smile

I just sat at the computer listening to Brad Mehldau's playing at the Village Vanguard, NY, 2006. A bit into the gig, the tuning is loosening up.

Here's the fourth-to-last track called "Secret Beach".
Brad Mehldau: Secret Beach

The tune is in A minor. Listen to B4. That note is much more than 2 cents off. Brad notices that, too, and because jazz piano players have the advantage of choosing what to play after the theme is introduced, he avoids letting B4 ring. I can understand him, it's really kind of awful-sounding.

Just to provide some comfort in your quest for good-sounding unisons smile

Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/19/13 11:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Max,
From G47 to C# 65 is one octave higher. This section

Blüthner treble section

From D66 to C88 is tuned same as unison.

This section

High treble

I find it photo such as a piano in our school. However, our was made ​​in Leipzig (DDR)
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/19/13 11:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Kamin

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat

I can not say sharp, but I think that when the sounds in chorus aliquot string begins resonance. A hammer don't touch it. If it is tuning accurately an octave higher than it then would be "classic styl." Slightly higher or lower to the effect it's the accordion pitch
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/20/13 01:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat

I can not say sharp, but I think that when the sounds in chorus aliquot string begins resonance. A hammer don't touch it. If it is tuning accurately an octave higher than it then would be "classic styl." Slightly higher or lower to the effect it's the accordion pitch


It's subtler than that, Max. Slightly sharp on the aliquots was taught to me by the Blüthner technicians when I joined the company in the 1960's but any sharpening was well within the 2 cents being mentioned here. I suppose it's better to say "if anything, sharp, but never on the flat side". This is a matter of judgement, it would be foolish if I were to try to lock it down to a cents value. As another old tuner said; "put the little******* where they 'sound' ". I will not write exactly what he called them because it will certainly get lost in translation and you will, no doubt, chastise me.

You raise a good point though. What you describe as the "accordion sound" is what we are trying to avoid in all our unisons. We are looking, at this point, to have you remove every last trace of accordion sound. Your description is appropriate.

Of course, it is not outside the bounds of probability that you tuned perfect unisons that sprang apart at the first energetic playing so pin setting goes together with still unisons

While you have posted your theories on tuning lever angles, I suggest using the lever so that the handle Is in line with the strings. This means the handle is vertical on an upright. This isolates much of the flagpoling from having an effect on the pitch of the string so that you.can concentrate on rotational movement.

(I did go into using the thumb as a fulcrum to help remove the flagpoling and reduce springing forces on the pinblock but it got too complicated. A picture really would have said a thousand words).
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/20/13 03:56 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat

I can not say sharp, but I think that when the sounds in chorus aliquot string begins resonance. A hammer don't touch it. If it is tuning accurately an octave higher than it then would be "classic styl." Slightly higher or lower to the effect it's the accordion pitch


but any sharpening was well within the 2 cents being mentioned here.
I fully understand that you have to express "any aggravation but it was well within 2 cents mentioned here." For me it is difficult practical terms. I hope that my ears will help .

You raise a good point though. What you describe as the "accordion sound" is what we are trying to avoid in all our unisons. We are looking, at this point, to have you remove every last trace of accordion sound. Your description is appropriate.
We are looking at the moment that you remove every last trace accordion sound." Do not have the moral right to leave "accordion lapses in the choir" I'll fix.


While you have posted your theories on tuning lever angles, I suggest using the lever so that the handle Is in line with the strings. This means the handle is vertical on an upright. This isolates much of the flagpoling from having an effect on the pitch of the string so that you.can concentrate on rotational movement.

(I did go into using the thumb as a fulcrum to help remove the flagpoling and reduce springing forces on the pinblock but it got too complicated. A picture really would have said a thousand words).


What concerns the use of the "theory of the corners setting lever" I fully agree with you. Need hold the handle of T-bar is not parallel to the strings. While the power right hand the handle weaker than the left. If we use the L-shaped classic tuning hammer "to reduce the forces on Pinblock" that I think should lead to (9-12). A handle only the left and move UP!.
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/20/13 05:01 AM

Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/20/13 07:40 AM


Accordion? I would say either hammered dulcimer or cimbalom, and I tend to believe that before metal frames and multi layers pin blocks and L-shape tuning levers (and normal temperature and humidity control) were in use, that is (funnily enough) more the kind of unisons piano players would go along with.

Please do not get me wrong, nothing to do with musical-ear-based "good intonation" that in my opinion as always been shareable as it is today; nothing to do with clean, long sounding and stable unisons that we are enabled to achieve, resulting from refined technology and (now called for, essential) skill.

Thank you, today this discussion made me surf the web and discover this lovely singing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBNKmC_SG0&NR=1

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/20/13 07:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

Now Patrick's recordings will hear russian tuners
http://maxim-tuner.narod2.ru/ustroistvo_...ck_wingren_rpt/
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/20/13 08:14 AM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Thank you, today this discussion made me surf the web and discover this lovely singing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBNKmC_SG0&NR=1

This Kazakh girl singing about the beautiful nature around her. Max hears a lot of this Kipchaks music recent years. Musical instrument called Dombyra
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/20/13 08:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Thank you, today this discussion made me surf the web and discover this lovely singing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBNKmC_SG0&NR=1

This Kazakh girl singing about the beautiful nature around her. Max hears a lot of this Kipchaks music recent years. Musical instrument called Dombyra


Thanks Max, Alfredo was wondering about both the lyrics and that instrument.

Edit: More "tuning".

Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not say ..."Max hears a lot of..."...

Instead of "Max hears..." or whatever concerns the subject, they would say "I hear...". wink
Posted by: ando

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/20/13 10:16 AM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not say ..."Max hears a lot of..."...

Instead of "Max hears..." or whatever concerns the subject, they would say "I hear...". wink


I love it that Max refers to himself as "Max". Don't change it, Max! Ando supports you.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/20/13 10:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)


I tried yesterday to record "dull" unison (the dynamics is low as most of the energy is given immediately) then "open unison" (obtained with always one string frankly phasing on reverse than the others, that is in the 0.1 0,4 cts range but may certainly be more depending of th ih of the piano. I had only a low iH piano for those tests, that make them more difficult as low iH straighen the enveloppe very easely)

Despite that, you can make a tone that sort of implose on itself, or a tone that gives enough energy to the partials, producing more lengh, more dynamics, and the otherwhile missing sensation of an efficient attack in the pianist fingers.

The unbalance is obtained naturally while tuning, to perceive its presence you need to pluck the strings, playing with the hammer each string we are really in the ear discrimination zone (but I heard 3 different pitches on the first unison posted by Pat). This is the level of difference find in any unison, that cab, eventually, stay put (if a certain shape is adopted from the start.

I'say one must stop thinking pitch and learn to perceive the energy level in its fingers an ears. Then, on a moderate ih piano the tuner can reinforce the tone of a partial.

Regulating the attack soon so it couple audibly the partials will rob harshness and transfer it to musical tone.

A single string (roslau) show a visible hop after a "hole" immediately after the attack noise. I believe that tuning from that moment is more efficient than regulating only the tail or even during the thick part of tone.

I suggest (?) that the way we manage tge unison, that lower energy level moment can be made smaller or longer, stronger or less.

Only changing the force used to play is enough to change the final tone (hopefully, as changing our listening moment is not a good idea, it is tiring and you can bevwrong in tge end.

Nevertheless, one have to force himself a little to listen sooner, the best tip for that is to "listen with the playing hand". With time all that begin to be natural. Tuning is not tiring then.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/20/13 12:32 PM

Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not say ..."Max hears a lot of..."...

Instead of "Max hears..." or whatever concerns the subject, they would say "I hear...". wink


I love it that Max refers to himself as "Max". Don't change it, Max! Ando supports you.


Ando, I too like it, that Max writes as Max does, be him totally aware of it (like you presumably are)... I would do not like if Max was left with his petty ignorance in order to please you, Ando, as I would find that unhealthy.

You know, in our profession we may need to speak English sometime, and all the better if our English (along with our tuning) is correct, whether Ando loves that or not. wink
.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/20/13 11:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)


I suggest (?) that the way we manage tge unison, that lower energy level moment can be made smaller or longer, stronger or less.

Kamin,if I understand you correctly, the "basic clean unison" depends in this case the external force of impact with respect to the string . In my practice, I try to make the last tuning unison at FF (forte). However it is very hard to hear on FF inconspicuous beats between three strings
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/20/13 11:12 PM

Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not say ..."Max hears a lot of..."...

Instead of "Max hears..." or whatever concerns the subject, they would say "I hear...". wink

Ando supports you.

Max says Ando thanks
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/21/13 02:00 AM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso



Thanks Max, Alfredo was wondering about both the lyrics and that instrument.....

....Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not ......


This from the same post!!!

Alfredo, you may think you have mastered our language, next, take a look at the cultural differences.

While we merely tolerate your laughable lapses, we find Max's endearing. Perhaps because he is less arrogant?

You might be almost as arrogant as me.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/21/13 10:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)


This is the level of difference find in any unison, that cab, eventually, stay put (if a certain shape is adopted from the start.

This is true, but it is challenging to find it when we shall create harmony in three strings and no mistakes. Otherwise, we can go to build the wrong intervals from basic of "false unisons"
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/21/13 11:06 AM

Max ,he basis to learn that is to tune right string to the middle one (middle one first tuned)

Listen well for a pure clear tone, no "moaning", no beats (unless false beats wink )

Then mute the right string and tune the left one with the same tone.

Whatever the tone is if you have the same on both side, you even dont need to tune with the 3 strings together.

Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/21/13 11:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Max ,he basis to learn that is to tune right string to the middle one (middle one first tuned)

Listen well for a pure clear tone, no "moaning", no beats (unless false beats wink

Kamin,I do tuning all three of the string as me seems right. I'm plucking or mute (not hear any of the beats, noise or waves) However, if I'm start to check on power kick hammer me there's some extra beats. I'm having doubts and I do not know if I should as tuning the next interval.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/21/13 11:32 AM

try to tune only 2 at once you will see it is easier (but not with plucking, with playng)

Most if not all concert tuner do like that (?)

You can tune with the 3 strings sounding together of course but it is more difficult, I do that when I want to have maximum energy at the attack

The unison "shape" you obtain with first the center string is the most stable in time, in my experience.

As you are used to pluck the strings you can hear easily if the 2 outer strings are exactly the same (the center one a hair lower)

I suspect you finish your unison control with plucking the strings, this gives a too bright tone generally.
Posted by: Phil D

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/21/13 01:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
I do tuning all three of the string as me seems right. I'm plucking or mute (not hear any of the beats, noise or waves) However, if I'm start to check on power kick hammer me there's some extra beats. I'm having doubts and I do not know if I should as tuning the next interval.


Max, you need to be muting strings more. You have wedges? Use them to isolate the string that you are tuning. You only want to be able to hear the note you are tuning to (if it already has a good unison) and the string you are tuning. Then when the first string is set, you can unmute the second one and tune that unison, then the third and tune that. You will be left with a proper, beatless unison.

It is impossible to tune well enough without muting the appropriate strings at the right time. If you don't start doing this then you will never improve!

Use a temperament strip at the beginning to mute everything apart from the middle string in the centre of the piano. Then you can tune the temperament octave without worrying about the unisons. You need to get this right at first. Then set the octaves and the unisons as I describe.
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/21/13 05:17 PM

I am in total agreement with Phil.

I thought this thread was about temperament? With the best will in the world, no tuning can possibly be acceptable unless one can first set a scale to work from. I would be a great deal more impressed with Max's progress if it were possible for him to demonstrate a scale (temperament) by muting off the first 12 notes so that only one string in each unison was sounding and then asking for guidance. That way he could concentrate on getting the basis correct instead of blindly ploughing through the other 200+ strings getting overwhelmed by notes that need correction.

This thread is going round and round in circles getting nowhere fast!
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/21/13 05:46 PM


Originally Posted By: Johnkie

This thread is going round and round in circles getting nowhere fast!


Agreed. There is one thing that mystifies me about Max. He was sent a complete Randy Potter course for instructional purposes.

The instructional DVD’s did not make it through the mail to Max.

Why is he not spending time translating the course pages daily or one page a day, but insists on spending great deal of time here?
Posted by: David Jenson

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/21/13 06:07 PM

I'm lurking ... and it's entertaining.

Everyone carry on now. Just pretend I'm not here. laugh
Posted by: accordeur

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/21/13 06:17 PM

Originally Posted By: David Jenson
I'm lurking ... and it's entertaining.

Everyone carry on now. Just pretend I'm not here. laugh


Same here.
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/21/13 10:00 PM

Who says we're all in here lurking around??? I'm not!!!
Posted by: David Jenson

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/21/13 10:04 PM

That makes three of us who aren't here. Is anyone else not here?

I figured that Groot fella might be not here, but I didn't want to say anything to give him away.
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/21/13 10:52 PM

😇👼🙈🙉🙊 That's me. A perfect angel. See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil but I have FUN!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/22/13 12:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
try to tune only 2 at once you will see it is easier (but not with plucking, with playng)

As you are used to pluck the strings you can hear easily if the 2 outer strings are exactly the same (the center one a hair lower)

I suspect you finish your unison control with plucking the strings, this gives a too bright tone generally.

Dear Kamin, it is true. When I'm read your words. You are as close was when I do temperament. I really keep plucking the strings now, because it is associated with a biggest wear and tear a pianos which I have . With reference check unisons really sound very bright and I do not find errors. The tuner also shows that I was right. I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/22/13 12:28 AM

Originally Posted By: David Jenson
I'm lurking ... and it's entertaining.

Everyone carry on now. Just pretend I'm not here. laugh

This theme is not about Max. Here we can try to understand and do it's a discussion about the temperament. In the future would like to see examples of the quality of temperament of our forum regulars
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/22/13 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted By: Johnkie

This thread is going round and round in circles getting nowhere fast!


Why is he not spending time translating the course pages daily or one page a day, but insists on spending great deal of time here?

Max has a lot of free time
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/22/13 01:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie

I would be a great deal more impressed with Max's progress if it were possible for him to demonstrate a scale (temperament) by muting off the first 12 notes so that only one string in each unison was sounding and then asking for guidance. That way he could concentrate on getting the basis correct instead of blindly ploughing through the other 200+ strings getting overwhelmed by notes that need correction.

Max still hopes that one day it will happen. Johnkie, you are right that Max is not very consistent in their desires. He absolutely can not put specific targets and try to solve them. But he tries. English gentleman be indulgent to him
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/22/13 01:59 AM

Max,

I am no professional, but thanks to some good books and the technicians on this forum, I have made some progress.

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


Nobody is making any accusations. They are giving you advice, Max. Good advice. Over and over and over.

The piano's tone is not the same when plucked or played. A good, solid, clean unison is tuned by using the piano's hammer. The technicians on this forum have been telling you this for more than a year (two years?)

ALL good tuning videos show normal playing, not plucking. Again, here's one of my favorites (I've posted it before):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbNYS6Oot4M
0:01 - 1:57 = examples of bad and good unisons
2:00 - 3:25 = tuning a temperament (he uses mainly 4ths and 5ths, and checks with 3rds and 6ths)
3:25 - 3:50 = extending the temperament to the whole middle section (still single strings!)
3:52 - 4:55 = tuning left and right string of each unison in the middle section
4:55 - 5:35 = extending octaves into bass and treble (using a mute in the treble to tune one string to the octave, then the other two).

In summary:
1) Start with the temperament, then extend it.
2) Tune one string of each unison correctly, then the others.
3) No plucking to be seen anywhere!
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/22/13 02:48 AM

Max is being given lots of advice, some of it conflicting but not necessarily wrong, some of it too advanced for a beginner.

If Max were a hands on student of any of us, we would be attempting to supplant some of the bad habits with better ones. That is the hardest part of any teaching, particularly when the student has some sort of hidden attachment to doing it the hard way.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/22/13 04:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
try to tune only 2 at once you will see it is easier (but not with plucking, with playng)

As you are used to pluck the strings you can hear easily if the 2 outer strings are exactly the same (the center one a hair lower)

I suspect you finish your unison control with plucking the strings, this gives a too bright tone generally.

Dear Kamin, it is true. When I'm read your words. You are as close was when I do temperament. I really keep plucking the strings now, because it is associated with a biggest wear and tear a pianos which I have . With reference check unisons really sound very bright and I do not find errors. The tuner also shows that I was right. I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


If you still believe that you have yet a very large step to go, then eventually you will begin to progress at a normal speed.

The "tuner" is not precise enough to show you if the tone is musical tone.

On pianos in bad condition,old or with bad strings, the role of the human tuner is to give the impression that the piano is better than it is. So I understand your idea of tone shaping but you are not yet experimented enough to do that well. Your ears may be tired soon an then you cannot judge of the final tone.

It is because nobody showed you really, in front of you, giving you methods, books and reading can help but minimally, you have to watch training videos at last and try to reproduce what you see..

But you have been send much links and material so the rest is up to you.

If you where able to record a temperament that would mean you where able to judge yourself of your work. For now you are yet too much in fantasy, to me.

Basics and ear training are necessary.

Best wishes
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/22/13 08:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
try to tune only 2 at once you will see it is easier (but not with plucking, with playng)

As you are used to pluck the strings you can hear easily if the 2 outer strings are exactly the same (the center one a hair lower)

I suspect you finish your unison control with plucking the strings, this gives a too bright tone generally.

Dear Kamin, it is true. When I'm read your words. You are as close was when I do temperament. I really keep plucking the strings now, because it is associated with a biggest wear and tear a pianos which I have . With reference check unisons really sound very bright and I do not find errors. The tuner also shows that I was right. I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


For now you are yet too much in fantasy, to me.

If a lot of incorrect theory of Max finally would transformed into quality the temperament of piano , then rejoice not only the Max. Will be happy all ( a invisible transatlantic web puppeteers and his customers). Thank you that understood "the idea of ​​forming the tone, but you have not experimented enough to do it well."
"If you are able to record where temperament, which means that you where able to judge yourself on your job" is a big dream of Max. But Max is not able to record video on a regular basis, there is no money to buy a camera. However, this does not mean that he is not engaged temperament. It's moving, and does it every day. Sometimes Max's customers do not hear in the sound of his inconsistencies temperament. It's little victory
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/22/13 08:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Max,

I am no professional, but thanks to some good books and the technicians on this forum, I have made some progress.

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


The technicians on this forum have been telling you this for more than a year (two years?)

ALL good tuning videos show normal playing, not plucking. Again, here's one of my favorites (I've posted it before):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbNYS6Oot4M

Thank Mark,what makes this Japanese man very clear for me. I do it too, just hold the hammer lever to the left to avoid flexure pins. However, until I have get a clean unison in ending tone.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/22/13 08:19 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
That is the hardest part of any teaching, particularly when the student has some sort of hidden attachment to doing it the hard way.

Max's entire life is really testing methods "in their own skin." I dare to hope that his skin is so callous that mistakes will the turn in the things for work of his brain
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/22/13 10:21 AM


Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Max has a lot of free time


Honestly Max if you are willing to admit to having a lot of free time, then I am of the opinion the free time would be well spent translating the instructional materials for yourself.

Along with that I note tools that have been sent to you are not being used in any of the videos you present here.

Both the course and the tools were sent over to help you learn.

This would help greatly with your tuning education.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/22/13 11:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Max has a lot of free time


Along with that I note tools that have been sent to you are not being used in any of the videos you present here.

It isn't so.Here gift hammer. I use it all the time. Recently, I use the technique (9-12)

Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/23/13 12:12 AM

The hammer hold on left side is to LOWER pitch if necessary (for instance 442 to 440) There the pin push on the most important part of the hole , crushing the wood with pressure on the part supposed to brake the tuning pin (not fully but yet a little on the right side of the tuning "bed")

So to me, not excellent for the pinblock, also I understand why ;

You tune the treble too low (plucking strings make you hear more partials and the pitch appreciation is then false if compared with normal playing)

The tuning pins are not set so this will move when piano is played (possibly all strings move more or less the same so it not noticed immediiately)

You last unison is not that bad, however...

You may learn FIRST a standard technique an Understand WHY it is employed. (understand pin setting for instance)

Afterthat if something else work for you and you know what you are doing no problem, I have seen numerous fancy techniques with tuning hammer, but seem to notice that the best tuners use normalized simple techniques for decades with excellent results.

For instance you can have a plane flying with the tail on the front, but it will be difficult to drive it finely...


Ps why do you use the sustain pedal to show intervals ?

Play similar 4ths more slowly, and 5ths , next time, some of them are not bad certainly.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/23/13 12:32 AM

I appreciated the conference on how not to use a tuning lever when you are not left handed and you are beginner.

Ah ! we all need some sort of glory !

the fun of the thing is that at no moment you show your "students" the normal and usual way to use a tuning lever !

We need courage to try to help you Max wink

I suggest a second DVD to be send ...
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/23/13 12:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Max,

I am no professional, but thanks to some good books and the technicians on this forum, I have made some progress.

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


The technicians on this forum have been telling you this for more than a year (two years?)

ALL good tuning videos show normal playing, not plucking. Again, here's one of my favorites (I've posted it before):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbNYS6Oot4M

Thank Mark,what makes this Japanese man very clear for me. I do it too, just hold the hammer lever to the left to avoid flexure pins. However, until I have get a clean unison in ending tone.



Max if you "do it too but hold the hammer to the left" you DONT do it too...

Do it too mean do as it is shown, you will find the reasons why later.

Pin flex more with lever at 9:00 pin flex less with lever at 12-14:00

But hammer easier to move at 9:00 (vertical piano) because the hole is free of pression.
More difficult to set the pin firmly and precisely but easier to raise the note an less wear on the hole.

But EXTREME flex of the pin when you push to set it and a little brutal then...


With lever at 13:00 you naturally lighten the pressure when turning, but beforethen you may LEARN to PERCEIVE where is the rotary plane of the tuning pin so to push the right amount on the lever without flexing the pin too much.

So FIRST one learn to "turn" the lever in perfect rotary plane of the pin then LATER one learn to use the pin springiness to have an easier motion.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/23/13 09:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin


You last unison is not that bad, however...

Play similar 4ths more slowly, and 5ths , next time, some of them are not bad certainly.

Ps why do you use the sustain pedal to show intervals ?

Thank Kamin, I glad that have some of Max's temperament change. I shall play more slowly in future
I don't use the sustain pedal
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/23/13 09:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin


I suggest a second DVD to be send ...

Sorry,DVD don't bring for Max in Kazakhstan
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/23/13 09:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Max,

I am no professional, but thanks to some good books and the technicians on this forum, I have made some progress.

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


The technicians on this forum have been telling you this for more than a year (two years?)

ALL good tuning videos show normal playing, not plucking. Again, here's one of my favorites (I've posted it before):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbNYS6Oot4M

Thank Mark,what makes this Japanese man very clear for me. I do it too, just hold the hammer lever to the left to avoid flexure pins. However, until I have get a clean unison in ending tone.


But hammer easier to move at 9:00 (vertical piano) because the hole is free of pression.
More difficult to set the pin firmly and precisely but easier to raise the note an less wear on the hole.

But EXTREME flex of the pin when you push to set it and a little brutal then...

Thank you for understanding the method 9-12. However I think that for grand piano this works also.
Piano pin tuning technique when we set the tuning hammer handle to the left and screw clockwise from 9 to 12. This method alows us to leave the wood bush bottom and pin hole upper part safe. While the classical method disintegrates them.
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/23/13 12:33 PM

Max. Do you understand that 9 O'clock on an upright is the exact opposite of the 9 O'clock that you are using on the grand in terms of how the lever acts on the pin and string??.

You have prematurely published your rather odd findings on tuning lever angles for your teaching videos so it seems you have developed a vested interest in your theories. Your two latest videos are mutually contradictory on this hammer angle point. Quite frankly, it betrays that you have no real grasp of what you are advocating.

The note that you used to demonstrate your technique went wildly out of tune in seconds after you 'tuned' it without you even playing it. We all heard it at the end of the Yamaha grand video yet you seemed blissfully unaware of this. We watched you tune it and just knew it wouldnt stay there. It all demonstrates conclusively that your theories and the way you put them into practice simply do not work. None of this adds to your credibility, You are misleading the 'young Russian tuners' you speak of, many of whom must have found this thread by now.

While you have made some improvement, it counts for nothing because most of it goes back out of tune immediately.

This thread is not an entire waste of time. Others have learned a lot through this thread because of your persistence in demonstrating the way not to do what we are saying and how to do it the hard way.

I know of one new tuner who is tuning for a major conservatory now. (anybody who wants to become a solid tuner would do well to put in some time at a music department). He is doing a great job and has learned to tune pianos to that level in far less than the time you have been posting here.

For my part, I am gaining an understanding of and compassion towards certain aspects of those with learning disabilities.
Posted by: pianolive

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/23/13 12:40 PM

Hello Max,

After reading your postings on this board, I wonder what you are doing and what your goals are. So far it seems that you have not made any noticeable progress. Your tunings are bad, you have not shown a temperament, the choirs are out of tune, you keep plucking the strings, you use your homemade tools.

I am aware of the problem of not having a mentor, but people here have shown links to many good videos.

The course you got from Dan Silverwood is as close you can come to a mentor, and I sent you the tuning tools.

We actually did send you some very good stuff by which you should have been able to do quite some progress! Not to mention the value of this to a total cost of about 2000 USD.

And what do you spend your time on? Posting on the forum all day long telling us you have lots of free time. So lots of free time, but no time to learn properly.
Posted by: ando

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/23/13 01:40 PM

Originally Posted By: pianolive

The course you got from Dan Silverwood is as close you can come to a mentor, and I sent you the tuning tools.....

We actually did send you some very good stuff by which you should have been able to do quite some progress! Not to mention the value of this to a total cost of about 2000 USD......



I wish somebody would send me $2,000 of tuning education and tools! I'd do it exactly the way I was told if somebody invested in me like that.

Max, I think it's time you abandoned your own theories and just spend some time doing things exactly as you are told. Just consider it an experiment where you can learn something by just copying the masters on this forum. Even if you don't understand the method you are using or totally disagree with it, just do it anyway. Try it for 2 months and see where it leads you. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the results.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/23/13 02:38 PM

Originally Posted By: pianolive
Hello Max,
After reading your postings on this board, I wonder what you are doing and what your goals are. So far it seems that you have not made any noticeable progress. Your tunings are bad, you have not shown a temperament, the choirs are out of tune, you keep plucking the strings, you use your homemade tools.
I am aware of the problem of not having a mentor, but people here have shown links to many good videos.
The course you got from Dan Silverwood is as close you can come to a mentor, and I sent you the tuning tools.
We actually did send you some very good stuff by which you should have been able to do quite some progress! Not to mention the value of this to a total cost of about 2000 USD.
And what do you spend your time on? Posting on the forum all day long telling us you have lots of free time. So lots of free time, but no time to learn properly.


Yes, it was a considerable investment in Max’s future success.

I could send the DVD’s once again but there is no guarantee they will make it a second time, as they did not make it the first time. There is no way to disguise the package as customs require a description of the contents.

Disappointing to not witness more in the way of improved results and development from Max up to this point.

That is a good question pianolive. I am wondering where Max would see himself 2 years from now or 5 years from now.

Originally Posted By: ando

Max, I think it's time you abandoned your own theories and just spend some time doing things exactly as you are told. Just consider it an experiment where you can learn something by just copying the masters on this forum. Even if you don't understand the method you are using or totally disagree with it, just do it anyway. Try it for 2 months and see where it leads you. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the results.


Exactly the point. We need cooperation from Max if he is to develop the proper skill set.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 12:02 AM

Originally Posted By: pianolive
Not to mention the value of this to a total cost of about 2000 USD.

pianolive,thank you for sending tools. I am very sorry that it was not able to help me to learn the subject tuning of the piano. (Не в коня корм) "Not in horse feed"
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 12:47 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Max. Do you understand that 9 O'clock on an upright is the exact opposite of the 9 O'clock that you are using on the grand in terms of how the lever acts on the pin and string??.
Quite frankly, it betrays that you have no real grasp of what you are advocating.

rxd, perhaps you do not quite understood my idea about using the handle of any hammer (T-bar L-Hammer) positioned only a left. The basis is a idea to completely eliminate the bending pins. A pin works only as a rotate moment. This is possible only when the position of the handle is located left and it's moves only (from 9 by 12) up. This statement is based on the laws of physics. It is fair to configure as grands, and to the verticals.
Maybe my explanation will be more apparent here. A clip translated into English.


if tuning grand need handle right from 15 to 6 down.

Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 01:10 AM

Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: pianolive

The course you got from Dan Silverwood is as close you can come to a mentor, and I sent you the tuning tools.....

We actually did send you some very good stuff by which you should have been able to do quite some progress! Not to mention the value of this to a total cost of about 2000 USD......


Even if you don't understand the method you are using or totally disagree with it, just do it anyway. Try it for 2 months and see where it leads you. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the results.

This method was born in my head no as the result of my own ambitions. I do not want its usefulness. I made ​​use of this method because stark reality condition pinblock piano, which I'm tuning is very bad. If I did not use this method, I could not save more than 30 oldest badly worn piano. The result is positive, I use this with the beginning of summer. Even if the pin is almost dangled in the hole of pinblock,I was able to fix it's dead without cardboard shim.
Posted by: rysowers

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 01:45 AM

Max,

Here is a link to a recording I made of a temperament I set recently on 7' grand in a high school theater. There is not temperament strip in the piano - in other words all unisons are open.

This is the type of recording that will help us better evaluate how you are doing with your tuning. Play thirds, and 6ths and 10ths. Chromatic progressions can tell us a lot about the smoothness of a tuning.

http://yourlisten.com/channel/content/16945052/Tuning_at_Shelton_High_School
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 02:07 AM

Originally Posted By: rysowers

This is the type of recording that will help us better evaluate how you are doing with your tuning. Play thirds, and 6ths and 10ths. Chromatic progressions can tell us a lot about the smoothness of a tuning.

http://yourlisten.com/channel/content/16945052/Tuning_at_Shelton_High_School

Thank,rysowers.I always play thirds, 4 and 5 after end of tuning . Chromatic gamma is not for me usefully. I don't hear important change when I'm play it's
Regards,
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 02:35 AM

Max believe that the left lever is solution for blocking the pin when it does not hold.

This method will oblige to repair sooner, a tired pin will be MORE firm with the lever in 12:00 13:00 position. But it have to be understood well.

Just an illusion, and Max believe he is Master tuner and talk and talk then do fancy things with talk and talk

Max still is afraid of the strings and does not listen the real tone because it is too harsh and too noisy. Use foam in your ears if this is the problem

It is normal when you begin to learn but signal you not learning fast enough.

Learn use normal methods then it will begin to be better.

Tune only vertical pianos for the moment, you put the grand at risk, my opinion..

Sorry to have to say but it is exhausting ...



I tested left hammer FOR Verticals ONLY. NO MUCH CONTROL in my opinion. the pin seem to be set but it is light setting





Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 04:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Max believe that the left lever is solution for blocking the pin when it does not hold.

This method will oblige to repair sooner, a tired pin will be MORE firm with the lever in 12:00 13:00 position.

Just an illusion,

I tested left hammer FOR Verticals ONLY. NO MUCH CONTROL in my opinion. the pin seem to be set but it is light setting


This is not Max thinks so. These are the laws of modern physics have prompted him to do just that.
"tired pins" will not work better when the L-hammer position of the handle 12:00 13:00 because at this position pin will bent. It employs an additional compression by string downward.

"Just an illusion" that's life.

"but it's light setting" What this light setting?
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 04:41 AM

Light setting mean the tuning does not hold long

Forget physic law, or understand them better, a good deep pin setting mean the pin try to raise the string, and it is possible even on tired pinblocks
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 04:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek

Tune only vertical pianos for the moment, you put the grand at risk, my opinion..

No risks.It is much painless than the rotation of the handle the hammer setting right side
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 05:08 AM

No because you push on the part of the hole used to grip , on a grand , hammer at 12 :00 ideal, to 15:00 if there are wood bushings..

The pin can twist , more or less , it does not break. The inside of the hole have to be perceived well when the pin is set, and protected when you raise the string.

You use your thumb to regulate the effort on the hammer, or vary hammer position between raising above pitch , and tuning (setting the pin )

For instance on a grand 14:00 15:0 0 to raise , then 12: 00 13:00 to set the pin.

With 9:00 position on a vertical the pin is too free and grip high. We want the pin to grip from its bottom end.

The
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 05:22 AM

Originally Posted By: pianolive
Not to mention the value of this to a total cost of about 2000 USD.

When I learned that the hammer sent from Sweden (used) is $ 2000, I was discouraged. At the first opportunity I sent it back, but do not have the material possibility
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 05:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek


You use your thumb to regulate the effort on the hammer, or vary hammer position between raising above pitch , and tuning (setting the pin )
I'm just tuning

With 9:00 position on a vertical the pin is too free and grip high. We want the pin to grip from its bottom end.
Why it's works in grand. I'm don't understood
Posted by: Phil D

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 05:59 AM

This is heartbreaking
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 07:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Light setting mean the tuning does not hold long

In your words there is not elementary logic. "Deep, Correct, Long hold this tuning" when the handle to the right by, You says . If the handle is the left light by then tuning, which will be short-lived. All directly opposite. I am convinced that if the handle is the hammer by the left this system will be more stable in the long hold of a pitch. If anyone would tuning a new piano by this method, it should not be upset long time. However, I am unable to carry out such a test
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 08:11 AM

Max,

Have you even realised that 9:00 in a grand piano corresponds to 15:00 in an upright? In a grand piano, the tension of the string pulls the pin towards 12:00. In an upright, the string's tension pulls the pin towards 6:00.
Posted by: ando

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 08:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: pianolive

The course you got from Dan Silverwood is as close you can come to a mentor, and I sent you the tuning tools.....

We actually did send you some very good stuff by which you should have been able to do quite some progress! Not to mention the value of this to a total cost of about 2000 USD......


Even if you don't understand the method you are using or totally disagree with it, just do it anyway. Try it for 2 months and see where it leads you. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the results.

This method was born in my head no as the result of my own ambitions. I do not want its usefulness. I made ​​use of this method because stark reality condition pinblock piano, which I'm tuning is very bad. If I did not use this method, I could not save more than 30 oldest badly worn piano. The result is positive, I use this with the beginning of summer. Even if the pin is almost dangled in the hole of pinblock,I was able to fix it's dead without cardboard shim.


Max, I must repeat to you - you need to follow the traditional methods that have been described to you. Forget your physics, forget your theories - just for a while at least. I believe you have too many ideas in your head and you are missing the basic fundamentals of good tuning. I've tuned a very old, worn out piano with loose pins, and you know what? I was still able to get it into reasonable tune by using the traditional hammer technique.

I feel that by using your tool that tries to avoid stressing the pin block or flexing the pins, you have no chance of setting the pin in a stable way. You are saying that pushing the pin against the block is always bad, but it is part of setting the pin. You also need to do strong test blows when you tune to equalise tension in different parts of the string and to test if the note will hold its pitch. No more plectrums for tuning!

I don't believe that all the problems you are facing are because all the pianos in Kazakhstan are terrible or untunable. I believe you are adding too many of your own theories to the process. Please - just try the methods that have been described to you here. Just do them for a week. It doesn't matter if you think they won't work - try them anyway. That way you will learn what these techniques are for and it will change the way you work. What have you got to lose? You have time to experiment. Even just to show respect to the people who have offered help to you, you should try it their way.
Posted by: pianolive

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 09:12 AM


[/quote]
When I learned that the hammer sent from Sweden (used) is $ 2000, I was discouraged. At the first opportunity I sent it back, but do not have the material possibility [/quote]

Heartbreaking Max, but this is what I wrote, and "we" refers to both Dan and I:
We actually did send you some very good stuff by which you should have been able to do quite some progress! Not to mention the value of this to a total cost of about 2000 USD.
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 09:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek


You use your thumb to regulate the effort on the hammer, or vary hammer position between raising above pitch , and tuning (setting the pin )
I'm just tuning

With 9:00 position on a vertical the pin is too free and grip high. We want the pin to grip from its bottom end.
Why it's works in grand. I'm don't understood


Isaac is the first to mention the importance of thumb pressure on the side of the shaft of the tuning lever to regulate the effort. Used as a sort of fulcrum, the thumb gives more control over the flagpoling while transfering the turning motion of the lever to the pin. This used to be the standard method of tuning but has gone off the radar in the last couple of generations. I have not seen a photographic example of this grip used in tuning an upright anywhere on the Internet. If anybody can find one or make one, please post it. many of us know that, while the fingers pull the lever round clockwise from the 12 or 1 O'clock position, the thumb is positioned halfway between the fingers and the tuning tip, pushing against the tendency to flagpole.
Most tuners use the thumb this way when tuning a grand, I don't see much on an upright.

To use a lever at the 9 Oclock angle on an upright without any form of control over flagpoling as we see Max doing means that you have to overdraw the string more than necessary in order to set the pin properly. this is because the flagpoling is up and down making for even more instability. On the other hand, to use the lever at 12 O'clock makes the flagpoling side to side and affects the pitch less. Remember the object is to move the string as little as necessary.

Max. I do see the point that you are trying to make. It is your own version of something you were told on the UK thread over a year ago. I'm pleased that you remember enough to reiterate it.

Let's all be aware that I am no longer discussing the use of a tuning lever but discussing the use of the T- hammer, more specifically, Max's hardware Store tool. If Max wants to use it, his education in its use should be more complete. So here goes;

Let me go into living history mode for a paragraph.

The T hammer is now not used much as a tuning tool but many older tuners used one regularly around 50 years ago in parts of Europe when i was learning. It is possible to do really solid tuning using a T- hammer. At least one tuning school insisted that their students used one exclusively for the first year before being allowed to use a lever. I assume that the pianos they were taught on were not brand new and had some age and useage on the pinblocks. Levers were only used for tight pins once the feel had been learned from a T- hammer. Levers were originally very much the province of the factory floor.

Sometimes pins can be too loose for good control with a T hammer and a lever is best.

Anybody who had ever seen a piano with all original oblong tuning pins and strings will note that, ever after over 100 years of tuning, the pins all face in the same direction. This gives a hint at the position of the T- hammer or lever used in tuning when the piano was new.

Max, I saw your video, thank you for the trouble that you went to. You mention a beautiful sound and how long a piano stays in tune when done your way. My only question on both counts has to be; why, then, doesn't it ? It is readily apparent that your method isn't working. Also, the unison you used as an example would never sound good because you are attempting g to tu e a 3rd string to two strings that are out of tune with each other and you didn't seem to be aware of that.

Since you are insisting on using your T- bar, I have no problem with that. May I first suggest that you slide the T bar part to half way so that the tool looks like a letter 'T'. Since it is a makeshift tool anyway, I suggest you wrap some duct tape or similar tightly and neatly round the handle and part of the stem to hold it in position and make the handle fatter and the whole tool more comfortable to use until you can obtain the proper tool.

When you use it as an L- lever, even holding it close to the long stem, your theory, while basically good in intention, will not work in practice. The only way to control flagpoling completely is to have equal pressures all around the pin turning axis. The only way to achieve that with only one hand is by the use of a T- shaped tuning hammer.

Now I will describe the way of holding the tool in that T configuration so that you can use it to eliminate all the flagpoling from the turning motion on an upright piano or to exert a deliberate flagpoling motion without turning it.

I suggest all tuners give this a try with their own T hammers as an excercise in how easy it is to isolate turning motions from flagpoling motions using this tool in a way that is almost impossible with a lever.

Simply grip the handle with the thumb and first two fingers on one side of the stem and the ring finger and pinky (little finger) on the other side. The heel of the hand, (fleshy part opposite the thumb aids in the clockwise turning on an upright. Place it on the pin in the position that is most comfortable, usually 10 to 4. With complete control over flagpoling at any angle, it really doesn't matter. Might as well be comfortable.

On a grand it is sImilar but the wrist is dropped so that the thumb pushes the hammer clockwise, the flagpoling is controlled by the rest of the hand. for counterclockwise, the heel of the hand pushes, the flagpoling again being controled by the rest of the hand.

I have gone into detail about what may seem obvious but the T hammer is the only way to feel and exert complete control over all aspects of pin movement. It takes a combination of strength and delicacy and is easily misused, particularly with the length of the stem. Too much flagpoling can easily be exerted, particularly the way Max is using it, but some is often necessary in a more controlled way than Max's awareness permits

Max. It is vitally important that the strings stay where you put them because each string you tune is dependant on the one before it.....and the one before that, etcetera.

If anyone has information on the use of T- hammer in other cultures, I would love to know.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 11:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

When I learned that the hammer sent from Sweden (used) is $ 2000, I was discouraged. At the first opportunity I sent it back, but do not have the material possibility


The tuning hammer was not $2000.00. The Randy Potter complete course, the Reblitz edition, and the other instructional books sent, along with the tools and shipping ads up to that amount.

I do not want any of the materials returned to me. I am quite sure, after speaking with pianolive on the phone, that he does not want the tools returned.

Best of luck Max.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 12:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

When I learned that the hammer sent from Sweden (used) is $ 2000, I was discouraged. At the first opportunity I sent it back, but do not have the material possibility


The tuning hammer was not $2000.00. The Randy Potter complete course, the Reblitz edition, and the other instructional books sent, along with the tools and shipping ads up to that amount.

I do not want any of the materials returned to me. I am quite sure, after speaking with pianolive on the phone, that he does not want the tools returned.

Best of luck Max.

If I had the opportunity to return it all back, I would do it immediately. However, I do not can to do that. Besides mail Kazakhstan works very badly and I could not guarantee the safety of sent back a things. I thought it was a gift, even if I use it badly. In Russian there is a saying: "do not look a gift horse in the mouth"
Posted by: Phil D

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 12:14 PM

Max, they were gifts. Gifts that had already been used by other people - I do not think they were bought especially for you. They just have value, that is all. Use them well smile
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 12:16 PM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek


You use your thumb to regulate the effort on the hammer, or vary hammer position between raising above pitch , and tuning (setting the pin )
I'm just tuning

With 9:00 position on a vertical the pin is too free and grip high. We want the pin to grip from its bottom end.
Why it's works in grand. I'm don't understood


Too much flagpoling can easily be exerted, particularly the way Max is using it, but some is often necessary in a more controlled way than Max's awareness permits

Thank you rxd! So much detail analyze Max's messages and instruct him on the path of truth. I'll be very detailed translate and analyze your latest message. I find it hard to understand all at once. Thank you again for your participation. Regards, Max
P.S Keep your time
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 12:16 PM


Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

If I had the opportunity to return it all back, I would do it immediately. However, I do not can to do that. Besides mail Kazakhstan works very badly and I could not guarantee the safety of sent back a things. I thought it was a gift, even if I use it badly. In Russian there is a saying: "do not look a gift horse in the mouth"


All of what you were sent was a gift.

Whether you use the tools or the instructional materials is up to you.

To learn the trade correctly is up to you.

The opportunity has presented itself.

With maturity, hard work, and dedication, rather than immmature quips in response, the opportunity presented will be a success.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 12:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Phil D
Max, they were gifts.

I see.Why then articulate a dollar amount?
Posted by: Phil D

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 12:21 PM

I don't know. That was in poor taste, I think. It wasn't something that needs saying in public.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 12:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

If I had the opportunity to return it all back, I would do it immediately. However, I do not can to do that. Besides mail Kazakhstan works very badly and I could not guarantee the safety of sent back a things. I thought it was a gift, even if I use it badly. In Russian there is a saying: "do not look a gift horse in the mouth"


All of what you were sent was a gift.

Dan, If I understand you correctly to Max no major claim about the gifts?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/24/13 01:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Max,

Have you even realised that 9:00 in a grand piano corresponds to 15:00 in an upright? In a grand piano, the tension of the string pulls the pin towards 12:00. In an upright, the string's tension pulls the pin towards 6:00.

Thanks Mark, you are right. For piano my technique will work it is from 15 to 6. I'm sorry for my mistake. This is linked to the fact that I made my describing by respect to the vertical piano. So, if tuning grand need handle right from 15 to 6 down.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 12:12 AM

In the pictures shows the balance of power. K - pin, Г - his head, P - handle hammer, T - fulcrum F, h - height of the point of application of force above the pinblock (ВБ) Than the higher the point T, that the length of the arms bending force component on the pins.

http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/maxim-tuner/view/502778/
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 12:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek

With 9:00 position on a vertical the pin is too free and grip high. We want the pin to grip from its bottom end.

I think be tuning grand need set handle by right from 15 to 6 down.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 12:28 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd

The T hammer...

would be superior if we had 3 hands. Two to twist the T-hammer (applying a pure torque), and one to strike the note.

Perhaps one could learn to strike the key with the toe?

(Tongue in cheek, in case it's not obvious.)

Kees
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 12:36 AM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: rxd

The T hammer...
Perhaps one could learn to strike the key with the toe?
Kees

Hi,Kees.Then the long stick in his mouth for convenience?
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 03:58 AM

GOD EXISTS ! I have seen him !
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 05:06 AM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: rxd

The T hammer...

would be superior if we had 3 hands. Two to twist the T-hammer (applying a pure torque), and one to strike the note.

Perhaps one could learn to strike the key with the toe?

(Tongue in cheek, in case it's not obvious.)

Kees


Your post brings up an important point.

I have purposefully avoided the word 'torque' in order to differentiate between turning and twisting of the pin. Even some of our lexicographers don't recognise this difference in their definition of torque and use twist and turn interchangeably. Anybody who even attempted to tune a piano would immediately recognise this.

I also am careful to differentiate between tuning lever and tuning hammer. Also the difference between tongue in cheek humor, which is often extremely funny and low puerile silliness. Both have their place.

This post also caused me to cogitate while tuning a piano, on the use of the lever in turning the pin in such a way as to not involve twisting it. I use this technique wherever possibl, sometimes a whole piano responds to it but, while I find it easy with a lever, it seems almost impossible with a hammer. The balance between the pressure of the thumb and the fingers on a lever makes this possible and is a valuable technique in speed tuning. The pin remains set but in its new position usually, with experience, the string becomes in tune with one or two calculated nudges of this sort. Isaac has mentioned this before and there was a whole thread here, some months ago, on the 'marshmallow zone' where this phenomenon was danced around but somehow remained unspoken in the thread. I have used this techniqu for as long as I can remember but never really thought about it or analysed it. Tuners who don't use their thumb in this manner (and this includes every upright tuning I have seen on uTube and many grand tunings) will most likely never experience it.

These days, I see most of the pianos I tune only a few hours later, so I know it works. I only really trust it implicitly in a clockwise direction but that might just be me. I have experienced it work in both directions. It depends on the feel of the piano.

This thread is throwing up all kinds of minutia.

Thanks for prompting this.

Max. Your automatic use of the plectrum to establish whether the next string to be tuned is sharp or flat is both slowing you down and destroying any ability you may develop to intuit the pitch of the next string to tune and in which direction to tune it. . The use of a paps wedge ( the long plastic scissory thing) or a stick wedge is advantageous here because you can change the string wedging quickly while carrying the pitches of the last blow in your head. Fiddling with plectra takes too much time and the essential tuning momentum is lost.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 05:54 AM

The T hammer is very convenient to really perceive the level of stress the pin is subjected to, without wondering if it comes from the way you are holding the tuning lever (lever, hammer, I regret I dont see the difference, RXD)

The "nudging and vibrtaing motion" obtained with the thumb holding the handle as a fulcrum, is how an initially firmly set tuning pin can be moved without going thru the whole shebang of untwisting/unstessing the pin, raising above pitch, unleach the twist of the pin and leave it only enough tense so it is in opposition with the wire tension ( with a dynamometer, it sound like a degree of may be less, that is the amount of twist the wire can induce in the tuning pin)

testing with a dynanometer is really crude, apply on a smaller part of the pin, but it shows more than 1 degree with 75 Kg

The metal of the pins is soft, I suggest if it was too springy the tone would suffer.

But I am also persuaded of the participation to tone obtained with the stiffening of the tuning pin by the torque left and constrained by the wire.
Hence the richer tone of pianos with maple blocks and no wood bushing (and good pin setting, may I add wink )


Very certainly when the pin is left in "neutral" position (from the tuner point of view) the tone is more "open" than when some stress remain ion the pin side , so musiclaly this can be pleasing.
But the tone is more powerful and more tight/precise with a "stressed" pin

Posted by: Mark R.

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 06:01 AM

rxd,

You wrote,

Quote:
I also am careful to differentiate between tuning lever and tuning hammer.


And then, later,

Quote:
while I find it easy with a lever, it seems almost impossible with a hammer.


I thought that "hammer" and "lever" were really used synonymously. Could you explain the distinction you make? (Somewhat off-topic, I know.)
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 06:09 AM

I have find difficult because of the strength necessary, to tune precisely with the T hammer.

It is because it is really not so easy to work the springiness of the ensemble lever/tuning pin/pinblock (and wire of course)

We are in strength level more easily attainable with a traditional lever.
For instance when we need to raise the stiffness of the pin enough to be able to make a motion of its foot of a few tenth of degree, the side of the pin have to be "braked" on the side of the hole in the block.

Doing that without the block suffering is not easy with the T hammer, which is too direct.

Tall tuning tips are comfortable to use because they favour that flagpoling job, but I find them dangerous, the braking of the pin occurs on a larger part of the hole,

I cannot say for sure, but I suppose that I work the pin , bended in a sort of light "U" shape inside the hole.

To obtain that springy shape, the normal traditional lever is necessary, with power entry near the tip, not high.

But those are evolved techniques, and only to be done occasionally.

I have worked so much that that at some point I was tuning all the piano with that method (very fast in that case)

After a few years I seem to notice the pinblock begin to suffer.

Slow pull is what gives the most respect to the block, while allowing to use the inner bending of the pin for final corrections.

Of course at some point any piano can be in need of larger pins, but if the tuner agree to use a more respectuous method and spend more time, it will not occur.

On the contrary, a tired block can gain some torque and begin to act as a recent block
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 06:11 AM

Me too please, hammer is for nails, lever for torque, but my understanding stops there, do you mean the weight of the tool ?
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 08:05 AM

I thought I had made it plain in the previous post that a lever acts as a lever and is L shaped. The word tuning hammer derives from harpsichord days when the tuning implement was T shaped and could also be used as a hammer when tuning pins had a slightly conical shaft. This tool carried over into pianos which were originally strung like a harpsichord and when the stringing got heavier and levers began to be used in the factories, somehow the lever was still refered to as a hammer, even though it was nothing like a hammer.

Perhaps I'm being pedantic but it is always a good idea to define our terms. The terms lever and T-hammer are perhaps more apt. This is only my suggestion based on established historical precedent. Max has been calling his particular tool a T- bar hammer.

While there are theoretical and intuitive ideas about wear of pinblocks through tuning, I know of pianos that have been tuned a minimum of 4 times a week for 40 years that show no signs of wear other than the difference in feel that evolves in a pinblock over time whether it is tuned once a day or once a year. These often tuned pianos have been tuned by many tuners over the years, some of them using an aggressive flagpoling technique with a lever and still they show no real Ill effect. Intuitively, it would seem that they shouldnt be in such good tuning condition but they are. I cannot deny my perceptions. I have just texted my colleagues who also tune these pianos and the three of them that have replied so far concur.

I can imagine wear taking place if a tuner flagpoles and turns at the same time. A feat that is almost impossible with a T hammer but commonplace these days when the lever is used unsupported by the thumb. Note that I say I could imagine possible damage by tuning that way. I have not seen incontrovertible evidence of it and certainly not In a modern multiply pinblock.

There is sometimes the odd rogue tuning pin hole that produces a looser pin but that is not the result of tuning. Otherwise, wouldn't there be more of them in the same block???

Even then, it is the ravages of time and of too many extreme atmospheric changes that does any of the real pinblock damage that most of us see.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 08:37 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: rxd

The T hammer...

would be superior if we had 3 hands. Two to twist the T-hammer (applying a pure torque), and one to strike the note.

Perhaps one could learn to strike the key with the toe?

(Tongue in cheek, in case it's not obvious.)

Kees


Max. Your automatic use of the plectrum to establish whether the next string to be tuned is sharp or flat is both slowing you down and destroying any ability you may develop to intuit the pitch of the next string to tune and in which direction to tune it. . The use of a paps wedge ( the long plastic scissory thing) or a stick wedge is advantageous here because you can change the string wedging quickly while carrying the pitches of the last blow in your head. Fiddling with plectra takes too much time and the essential tuning momentum is lost.

Dear rxd, I always look forward to any news from London. I will not hide for me, any criticism of your stance very need. I'm think last week to began clearer understanding subject "temperament" is largely due to you.
The use of a plectrum in the last time I try to exclude. I have a trying to put the mute between the strings in the choruses (A4-A3). 5.6 octave strings just try to put my own ears without mutes. In Bass sector I do plucks right index finger, because there is more muffled sound, less additional harmonics. I will surely a stick wedge as you wrote
Regards,Мах
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 09:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
The T hammer is very convenient to really perceive the level of stress the pin is subjected to, without wondering if it comes from the way you are holding the tuning lever (lever, hammer, I regret I dont see the difference, RXD)

Isaac,a tuner have need deep sensation both hands and your fingers on handle of T-bar when turn a pin. Turn on a brain in time tuning with T-bar. It's not tech. For me it philosofy
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 09:53 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd


I can imagine wear taking place if a tuner flagpoles and turns at the same time. A feat that is almost impossible with a T hammer but commonplace these days when the lever is used unsupported by the thumb. Note that I say I could imagine possible damage by tuning that way. I have not seen incontrovertible evidence of it and certainly not In a modern multiply pinblock.

Even then, it is the ravages of time and of too many extreme atmospheric changes that does any of the real pinblock damage that most of us see.


Thanks for that witnessing, I am just cautious.

That flagpole plus turn is the way we treated new pianos when they where untuneable, as YC verticals and some other too stiff and cracking blocks

And I did not use that terrible method on other pianos (tuning lever at 15h and maximum flagpoling.

But I moved a lot the pin while braking it inside the hole so I have a jump in the wire, breaking all friction, I could follow with a more standard turn.

Too much pressure on one side of the hole cannot be excellent in time, but as the control sensation is so good you tend to use it too much...
Now I am quieter (too much may be) , I have seen a video of a tuner tuning very fast with all flagging, I will try to find it again.

Particularly, in the end it is unnecessary, flag poling is just one technique for particular situations.
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 11:37 AM

I think some people are better off being a bus driver. Ha ha.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 11:52 AM

Personally I could not, because I stopped drinking, I'll never pass the exam
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/25/13 11:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: rxd


I can imagine wear taking place if a tuner flagpoles and turns at the same time. A feat that is almost impossible with a T hammer but commonplace these days when the lever is used unsupported by the thumb. Note that I say I could imagine possible damage by tuning that way. I have not seen incontrovertible evidence of it and certainly not In a modern multiply pinblock.

Even then, it is the ravages of time and of too many extreme atmospheric changes that does any of the real pinblock damage that most of us see.


Particularly, in the end it is unnecessary, flag poling is just one technique for particular situations.

Even if the use of the T-bar is selective, episodic, each but tuner simply must know this. A tuner must have at least a little knowledge on the subject. Especially some of the negative consequences that can occur during a move of pin and set on handle
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/26/13 12:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
I think some people are better off being a bus driver. Ha ha.

Не бывает плохих кошек, бывают повара, которые не умеют их готовить
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/26/13 05:20 AM

Now if you have the feeling of the pin you have not understood yet the feeling of the string

This is not philosophy this is a long training with standard methods.

Philosophy must tell you that :

IF A PIANO IS PLAYED WITH KEYS IT MUST BE TUNED WITH KEYS

(Lao Tseu, -4OO before JCl)

PS sorry for capitals,
T hammer is less efficient to lock the pin an wire together , than standard lever ;
Because you feel the pin well, but the pinblock less well (when setting the pin)
Because the handle is short, make it harder to produce tiny motion

To use accurately a T hammer, the tuner need to play strong and use hard blows to put the pin in its bed with enough tension below it.

Due to the bad condition of the pianos you work on you should use some foam in your ears. (this is very important)

Once you will use that you will understand better the unisons

You should learn what is a ,5th a 3d, an octave, and how they sound.

A piano to train yourself , every day if possible. Certainly you can find a piano , if you are a piano tuner.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/26/13 05:35 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd

While there are theoretical and intuitive ideas about wear of pinblocks through tuning, I know of pianos that have been tuned a minimum of 4 times a week for 40 years that show no signs of wear other than the difference in feel that evolves in a pinblock over time whether it is tuned once a day or once a year. These often tuned pianos have been tuned by many tuners over the years, some of them using an aggressive flagpoling technique with a lever and still they show no real Ill effect. Intuitively, it would seem that they shouldnt be in such good tuning condition but they are. I cannot deny my perceptions. I have just texted my colleagues who also tune these pianos and the three of them that have replied so far concur.

I can imagine wear taking place if a tuner flagpoles and turns at the same time. A feat that is almost impossible with a T hammer but commonplace these days when the lever is used unsupported by the thumb. Note that I say I could imagine possible damage by tuning that way. I have not seen incontrovertible evidence of it and certainly not In a modern multiply pinblock.

There is sometimes the odd rogue tuning pin hole that produces a looser pin but that is not the result of tuning. Otherwise, wouldn't there be more of them in the same block???

Even then, it is the ravages of time and of too many extreme atmospheric changes that does any of the real pinblock damage that most of us see.



Hi RXD , I suggest it is because concert tuners raise the firmness of the pin (each time the piano is tuned) an occasional flagpole tuner will not be noticed.
Pinning is OK , as the tuning sensations, as long as the tuner use an adequate technique. A flagpole tuner need the block to be more firm, and in the end it finally is not (if all tunings are done that way)
Flagpole tuning is seen as a beginner defect, in that case.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/26/13 10:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Now if you have the feeling of the pin you have not understood yet the feeling of the string

But Max try do again
Posted by: ando

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/26/13 12:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Now if you have the feeling of the pin you have not understood yet the feeling of the string

But Max try do again


There are still some problem unisons and notes, but I believe Max is improving! Keep going and keep using that hammer. Keep trying to improve with the advice you have been given. Best of luck, Max.
Posted by: Phil D

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/26/13 12:51 PM

Max, do you ever mute any of the strings? Do you have rubber mutes / plastic wedges? Do you have a felt strip to use?

This video is better, but there are many problems still, and I think it has a lot to do with you not using mutes.

edit: This is what a mute strip looks like. Do you see how it helps?

Posted by: RestorerPhil

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/26/13 01:50 PM

BUT...

When inserting a muting strip, please get in the habit of depressing and holding down the sustain pedal to lift all dampers off the strings. This is done to protect the bichord and trichord wedges from being pinched and deformed.

I could not see this detail on the video and it is an important habit to have.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/26/13 02:43 PM

When pulling it out also while I tend to forget. At last for the double wedged and simple v shaped, if they are horizontally layered as on yamahas, Steinways, .. Then the wire motion can even cut in the felt (I have seen that)
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/26/13 03:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Now if you have the feeling of the pin you have not understood yet the feeling of the string

But Max try do again

I agree there are better unisons but still more job to do to have them nicer (it takes along time to master unisons so you have now to learn to listen the notes with mutes, only 1 string then 2, then 3,

Many intervals are out of tune
I cannot say for sure but you seem to push on the lever to raise that center string, which is too low, you need to TURN really the lever , at that level of correction, as generally, pushing on the lever does not tune - raise notes higher than you do there that to set the string and pin.

You may want to train to listen to notes PLAYED together with one string only for one and one string only for the other, so 2 mutes or a felt ribbon should be the next tool you use.

It is impossible Max to tune good stable unisons by plucking the strings, it is only good for pitch raising (and is OK to listen if you ar eunsure of a string eventually, but on that note you tune would use a mute anc compare both sides of the unison, to hear which side sound the best.

Really, try to use some foam in your ears to lessen the too bright tone, or special "earplugs" then you will hear way better the most important part of the tone.

The partials couple soon, if you pluck you have not enough energy in the string.

Your octaves are all too small (the first one you tune is VERY small) Probably because the tuning pin is not set enough, with that hammer position I believe the pin can turn easily.

If you hold the lever right 13:00- 14:00 or vertical you are OBLIGED to raise more the wire, then there is enough tension in the string to put the pin in place
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/26/13 03:28 PM

Also put your arm firmly on the piano (on the top, or even on the tuning pins) so you are stable.

Do it until you are used to the lever. then a simple point of reference is enough

Your arm may do the same motion than the arm that move on the glass of the cars (when it rains)

Or like if you are cleaning a window, if you prefer

Thumb, 3 fingers then little finger is the ideal posture to learn the lever

Best wishess
Posted by: Mark Cerisano, RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/26/13 08:49 PM


I agree. Unisons and octaves are key. If they are clean, the ear can forgive a non equal temperament.

For unisons, listen to the beating upper partials. The lower partials will beat slower than the higher ones, so reducing the higher ones, which are faster and easier to hear, improves the whole unison. Try "ghosting" which is (as I know it) pressing the key gently, making no sound. Then staccato whack the octave, octave and fifth, and double octave. If the upper notes are close in frequency to the partials of the lower note, you will hear the beating if the unison is out of tune.

I also agree with Isaac's explanation of hammer turning.

I would like to add: We all know that when we turn the pin, the pin bends and twists, and the string begins to have the differential tensions across the bearing points. The trick is to leave the pin bent and twisted the way you found it, as well as the tension equalized, or unequal slightly in the direction of sharpening (this can be acceptable if it is less than the bearing friction).

Now, when we are finished turning the pin, it will "spring back" and the tensions will change. If only we could get that "spring back" to equalize the tension differential for us, that would produce stability.

Try this:
Use Tunelab (http://www.tunelab-world.com/tl97.html) or some other ETD.
Mute off a string.
Turn the pin (*).
Measure the pitch.
Whack the key three times, fff.
Measure the pitch again.

We are looking for no change in the pitch.

(*)If the pitch changes, try a different angle/approach combination

Possible angles: 9, 12, and 3 o'clock and all in between.
Possible approaches: Coming from below (sharpening). Coming from above (flattening).
Do not push or pull the handle unless you know what you are doing and why. This is only for ultra fine adjustments, and then the amount of push/pull is very gentle. It's more of a brushing of the handle, a coaxing if you will.)

The most common combinations that produce reasonable stability in most pianos, not all, is:

1) Flattening at 11 o'clock
2) Sharpening at 2 o'clock

(Note: I did see you flattening at 2 o'clock which will definitely not produce a stable pin. As the pin "springs back", it causes the note to go flat.)

Good luck. Keep working at it. Seek out a good tuner. This will save you months, perhaps years in the learning curve.
Posted by: Mark Cerisano, RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/26/13 09:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Max, crap is not considered a naughty word.



He is translating the English into Russian. Translate crap into Russian and then take that word and put it back into English. That's a bad word.

BTW, until now, I thought Max actually could write in English. Very resourceful of you Max. (I am right aren't I? I mean, you are using a text translation program, right? I apologize if I am wrong.)
Posted by: Mark Cerisano, RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/26/13 09:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.

I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.


I tuned a Yamaha once and the store owner called me back. The music teacher was complaining.

"What did you do to my piano. You have destroyed the tone."

Well, I did some voicing, actually just hammer mating, if I remember correctly. Yamahas are known for having harsh bright tone, but I didn't think I destroyed it! I explained voicing to her. She had no idea what is was.

Then it hit me. I asked her to show me which notes were "dead". Very nice unisons I thought, but I've been here before. I detuned the unisons. "Yes, that is much better. Thank you."

So, does she like a lively unison, or is she just used to it?

BTW, I did hear recently, some jazz being played on a piano with dead on unisons and it did strike me as a bit odd. I wanted to hear some swell and projection, for lack of a better word.

Do I like some swell in my jazz, or am I just used to it? I really don't know.
Posted by: Mark Cerisano, RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/26/13 10:18 PM

Originally Posted By: pppat
Hi Max (and all others, too),

you are getting a lot of good suggestions from other posters here. I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off. I recorded my piano tonight, and here are the sound files:

First, I tuned the left and right strings of D4 to the center string with an electronic tuning device. After that, the unison sounded like this:
L/R strings tuned to center string, Reyburn Cybertuner

There is a little bit of sizzling partials there, so I checked the single strings. They sounded like this:
D4, strings one-by-one

The left string was indeed a bit "busy" in itself. I tweaked the unison aurally, and this is what I came up with:
L/R to center string, aurally

Then I detuned the right string +1 cent and the left string -1 cent, giving a unison that is 2 cents wide in its frequency range:
Detuning the unison: L -1 cent, R +1 cent

Can you hear how that unison "moans"? It sounds like there's an effect on it, like a chorus or flanger pedal used for guitars.

I tuned them back, and I post that file, too. You can hear how I'm working with the tuning hammer and with the hand hitting the keys. When the strings fall into place, the sound is longer, clearer and more powerful than if the strings do not couple with each other:
re-tuning the unison

This is the kind of sound you should be looking for in your unison tuning. Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!

Hope this helps,
Patrick





Kudos to you Patrick for making the effort to post your recordings.

Is it just me, or did all those single unisons have false beats? The real demonstration in those recordings is how the cybertuner could not mask the FB but you did a wonderful job by ear.
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 01:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Mark R.

I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.


I tuned a Yamaha once and the store owner called me back. The music teacher was complaining.

"What did you do to my piano. You have destroyed the tone."

Well, I did some voicing, actually just hammer mating, if I remember correctly. Yamahas are known for having harsh bright tone, but I didn't think I destroyed it! I explained voicing to her. She had no idea what is was.

Then it hit me. I asked her to show me which notes were "dead". Very nice unisons I thought, but I've been here before. I detuned the unisons. "Yes, that is much better. Thank you."

So, does she like a lively unison, or is she just used to it?

BTW, I did hear recently, some jazz being played on a piano with dead on unisons and it did strike me as a bit odd. I wanted to hear some swell and projection, for lack of a better word.

Do I like some swell in my jazz, or am I just used to it? I really don't know.


I take this question seriously. There is not quite all the fun of the fair when the fairground organ is in tune, the pipes lose some of their skirl, a steel band not quite so exotic.

All tuning departments have stories of sending a young tuner who is getting too cocky to a customer like yours, Mark, so that they have to go back and untuned it.

When I quickly check over lots of practice pianos for tuning, I know I can spot an out of tune unison in a piano that has reasonable tone regulation by running a very rapid chromatic scale. The out of tune unisons have less attack and make a ' black hole' in the ripple of notes.

That might be the reason, some pianists/listeners don't like to hear the attack.
They also like the swelling you hear. If a wind or string player habitually played like that, they would be unemployable. The designers of digital keyboards are of questionable taste because their strings voices and brass sounds have either no attack or an amateurish fake attack and are all but unusable.

A skilful pianist can vary the attack in so many different ways. For the unisons to be out of tune takes away their ability to do this. There are tuners on this forum who will take me totask on any statement that refers to a pianists ability to make huge differences to piano tone. They have not heard a fine pianist on a fine piano. The situation simply doesnt exist in the vast majority of places.

Most of the better jazz clubs in London now have first quality pianos that are tuned as regularly as lesser concert hall pianos. Those that don't are obliged to hire in a first class instrument and tune it daily if they want to employ the current jazz stars. The days of having poor condition pianos in jazz venues and making them worse by spilling drinks in them and other abuses are long gone. Most don't drink any more when they're working. Some even have the piano mikes turned off when they encounter a really fine piano in a good room.
I know this first hand, I am often the tuner involved. The piano cast off to the back of the stage is often a quite good piano or can be an equally fine make in poor condition.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 02:25 AM

It have been said before but dealing with the tone enveloppe have begin to be learned to apprentice tuner by Yamaha...

European tuners dont worry with theory of unison at that point, they tune it, point.

Then possibly because of the type of tone they have, they analyse how to push the enveloppe a bit more than it is necessary in European pianos.

Most of the tuners I learned with are not at all making difference between a tuning with intentional dealing with the attack and a tuning where the attack is just tuned by the high partials job.

As said G Weinreich with his coupled string motion description, the 3 strings cannot beat in phase and are immediately pushed in a waving motion with back and forth motions between coupling (high speed camera show that very well) between 2 of the 3 strings the 3 one being once with one, then the other to finish in a more or less shape vertically polorized (I am surprised this have not been evaluated yet)

So stability wise we can favor that shape , because if not it will install erratically by itself.

But we are in a level of precision where it is unecessary to talk of beats

I regret rxd but there is a confusion between the honky tonk effect and a good stabilisation of the attack in a nice clear shape very soon.

Tuners tend to tune the brightest tone possible which is good only on some pianos . You did tell me you never listen (analyze) somebody else tuning, you probably did not notice then the small differences in unison between tuners.

It is not as easy as the rest of the tuning is modifying the tone.
It also is so much near of the ears discrimination level that even when plucking the wire it is not always perceived (but a tuner probably can hear that)

Btw unison can be in high stability with different styles and shape, some being more long lasting than others.
At the end of the day that is just theory ... I never try to tune a piano with a beat unless I am asked for a honky tonk or a bar piano .

It is simply a game within the iH of the piano probably
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 03:19 AM

Quite so, Isaac. Quite so but we are both ( hopefully) writing about giving the pianist maximum control over the attack and taking out the ' black holes', (as one fine pianist so aptly describes them) by tuning and then voicing.

None of this is helping Max at this stage but I really don't feel like working this morning. I'm going to take my assistant out for breakfast.
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 05:03 AM

Of course I don't listen to the work of others unless I have to in the course of my work

Last night, I had 15 mins for a post delivery check over a piano for a party where a famous singer was performing. I knew exactly which apprentice tuned it befor it came out of the basement. it was 90% fine. A quick couple of minor changes to the scale and morph a few too fast RBI's into the general tuning that would pass muster anywhere.

As I have said before, we don't go looking for trouble if a regular tuners work got so quirky that it made things tough for the rest of us, some texts would ensue and heads would roll.

Many years ago, one really good tuner got it into his head it was more 'artistic' to over sharpen the treble. The rest of us spent a few days taking down the last 20 notes of the treble on too many pianos. That tuner was taken off the important work for a while and retrained.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 05:37 AM

"black hole " is excellent ! See we where talking of energy from the start !
Maximum CONTROL on the attack, is slightly different than maximum power for the attack (the attack is the engine the pianist use, it get tuned to some point when partials beats are supressed, but have to be regulated energy wise, so the pianist have the feel of the hammers under his fingers) if we empower the attack to the max we create a black hole also, but it is immediately after it, then the tone dissipates straight and soon.
Sort of overpowering, take too much energy immediately . (will stay put for a few hours of playing, no more)

An unison that breaks create the opposite situation ...


Similar thing than you happened there with those "extra rolling basses" , used by one new guy in the pool.

Extra high stretch in the treble is a sort of trap , if you begin to listen too soon in there putting the note at the edge of the envelope, the ear accustomate and the tuner tune all the octaves with so fast beat it is unnoticed, confusing the sympathic resonance of the rest of the piano with the energetical effect of extra fast beating.

I have seen also "pure 5ths" in mefiums, creating so much stretch that the last octave up is to be tuned inverted to sound well (but I also heard that inverted high treble could be used in harpsichord tuning as sort of strech effect, may be when the instrument is poorly sounding ?)

I recognized sometime the tone signature some of us but mostly the younger tuners used a more straightforward tuning with more eveness in 3ds progression (ladder of 3ds based temp) while the ancient where using each a different temperament sequence, hence a different flavor.

As it could be categorized : a 3 ds based or a 5th based tuning. Only in theory they are similar, practically they provide an instrument thst sound more or less "old style"

3ds based tunings are appreciated because they give do much consistency that they are more resistive to time.
Probably that the 5th based is more "musical" but it can be noticed that some chords are cleaner , when listened with tuner ears.
I like the robustness of good FBI progression but if some 5th ask for something else I will favor the 5th.
Rainy day but my back is back so back to work !


Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 10:01 AM

Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Now if you have the feeling of the pin you have not understood yet the feeling of the string

But Max try do again


Keep trying to improve with the advice you have been given.

Thank,ando.Max shall it so do
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 10:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Phil D
Max, do you ever mute any of the strings? Do you have rubber mutes / plastic wedges? Do you have a felt strip to use?

This video is better, but there are many problems still, and I think it has a lot to do with you not using mutes.

Thank Phil D,More than 2 per month Max uses mutes.It's are in the video( on top of iron plate of a piano) a fork and felt washer.But Max hard it's use
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 10:19 AM

Originally Posted By: RestorerPhil

I could not see this detail on the video and it is an important habit to have.

Max shall it habit to break!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 10:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Now if you have the feeling of the pin you have not understood yet the feeling of the string

But Max try do again

I agree there are better unisons but still more job to do to have them nicer (it takes along time to master unisons so you have now to learn to listen the notes with mutes, only 1 string then 2, then 3,

Isaac,I shall use your advices in future
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 10:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Max, crap is not considered a naughty word.



He is translating the English into Russian. Translate crap into Russian and then take that word and put it back into English. That's a bad word.

BTW, until now, I thought Max actually could write in English. Very resourceful of you Max. (I am right aren't I? I mean, you are using a text translation program, right? I apologize if I am wrong.)

Max no leisure to delve into the vagaries of translation. He had no time to do that and it's don't offends him. He is firmly in the comes for the truth, even if it does not exist
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 10:59 AM

Mark.

Why did you think this needed to be addressed by you? It didn't... It was done and over with.

We are not speaking Russian in here for pete's sake. I would not dream of going to a Japanese speaking website not knowing their language very well and then proceed to tell them to stop saying what I might think were "naughty words" in my OWN language which has nothing to do with their language if I couldn't hardly even speak Japanese like Max can barely speak and understand English. I would never assume what the word meant let alone attempt to correct them on it. That would be offensive to them in their own language.

We are speaking in American English as this is, an American English speaking website. Therefore, the word crap in American English is NOT a bad word. Geez.

If you want to help Max help him. But, leave me out of it and stick to the point of tuning.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 11:01 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Quite so, Isaac. Quite so but we are both ( hopefully) writing about giving the pianist maximum control over the attack and taking out the ' black holes', (as one fine pianist so aptly describes them) by tuning and then voicing.

None of this is helping Max at this stage but I really don't feel like working this morning.

Thank,rxd.I dare to hope that the latest video of Max inspires some optimism in his attempt to use your advice in practice
Regards,Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 11:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
like Max can barely speak and understand English. I would never assume what the word meant let alone attempt to correct them on it.
If you want to help Max help him. But, leave me out of it and stick to the point of tuning.

Jerry Groot, I agree it is not necessary do pedaling our attention on this "word". But Max is very poorly understood meaning in English. He absolutely does not speak a word of English. However, a help advices of forum members is a reality. It really helps him in his work. Many musicians county town of Uralsk positive dynamics of growth in the tuning of Max now. This positive result of the existence of this forum
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 05:04 PM

I wonder what thumb turns out to be when run through an auto-translator?

whistle
Posted by: David Jenson

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 09:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
I wonder what thumb turns out to be when run through an auto-translator?

whistle
It involves hitchhiking ... I think.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/27/13 11:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
I wonder what thumb turns out to be when run through an auto-translator?

whistle

pollex
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 12:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Quite so, Isaac. Quite so but we are both ( hopefully) writing about giving the pianist maximum control over the attack and taking out the ' black holes', (as one fine pianist so aptly describes them) by tuning and then voicing.

None of this is helping Max at this stage but I really don't feel like working this morning.

Thank,rxd.I dare to hope that the latest video of Max inspires some optimism in his attempt to use your advice in practice
Regards,Max


Max.
There are many things that need attention. The first 2-3 things I will address are issues of pure logic.

I notice you are back to the lever so let's do lever.

If you hold the lever at 9 or10 o'clock, the flagpoling occurs in line with the string. This means that if you merely pull the note up to pitch and call it good, you have left some flagpoling in the pin and, because it is in line with the string, the pitch will go all the way back as the pin spring back.

In order to leave the pin stable, you will have to pull it a lot above pitch and then let the pitch down until it is in tune. Doing this will create instability because of the friction around the pressure bar. An experienced tuner could both see and hear this happening in the string you were attempting to tune in your last video.

Now. Think about it. If you held the lever in line with the string, the flagpoling would be at 90 degrees to the string and will have far less effect on the pitch of the string so that when the pin sPring back from being pulled out of line, it will not be in line with the pull of the string and have very little, if any effect on its pitch.

This will make all your tuning much easier and you will not have to move the pin nearly as much. It's only logic. By holing the lever in line with the string you are taking flagpoling out of the equation. Or, to put it another way, You are neutralising the effect of flagpoling on the pitch.

The second point is that you are attempting to tune a 3rd string to two other strings that are out of tune with themselves. Again, logic that takes no specialised knowledge of pianos tells you that a good unison will never happen. Before you can tune the third string, you have to be absolutely certain that the first two strings are in tune with each other and that they stay in tune with each other while you tune the third string.

These two basic points are interdependent.

It is all very basic logic. I hope my attempt at explaining this will help.

When I see you doing these two things, I will be able to help you further.

You have specifically asked my help. I need to see, in your next video, the lever being held in line with the string and you tuning all three strings of a unison in the middle of the piano. No talking, no playing, I haven't time nor interest to wade through that. Only then can I take you through the next step.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 01:12 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Quite so, Isaac. Quite so but we are both ( hopefully) writing about giving the pianist maximum control over the attack and taking out the ' black holes', (as one fine pianist so aptly describes them) by tuning and then voicing.

None of this is helping Max at this stage but I really don't feel like working this morning.

Thank,rxd.I dare to hope that the latest video of Max inspires some optimism in his attempt to use your advice in practice
Regards,Max

Only then can I take you through the next step.

Thank rxd for your support, I shall definitely do shoot the next video. Just not possible to do so in the near future. I have a lot of training going into your advice to do it right. I do not have cameras. I shall read your message, to understand the meaning of your explanation. Let me repeat the question in the last video is a positive change?
Regards, Max
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 02:32 AM

Positive change?

There are some things I purposefully do not address.

You are stuck in one place. This is because you are clinging to your homespun philosophies, each of which misses out a few vital parameters that make what you say make no sense. You are not alone in this aspect on this forum.

There are hundreds of years of cumulative experience genuinely trying to help you on this forum. There are others whose sole motive seems to be to show how clever they are (or not) and only confuse the issue.

I tell you how to use the tool you have chosen in one video then the next video shows you using another tool. I'm trying to work 'with' you here, letting you have your own direction and nudging you back on to the path when you stray. There are many paths but some of them have more obstacles than others.

Left to your own devices, you, like most novices, will, with elegant inevitably, revert to doing it the hard way.

I have given you what i consider to be the next appropriate step. With the pins on your piano being not too tight, you shouldn't have much trouble.

Practice practIce practice. Then you should have a few questions for us as you discover what we are trying to tell you to be true.

I am watching to see what you do in your next video
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 04:24 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd

Practice practIce practice. Then you should have a few questions for us as you discover what we are trying to tell you to be true.
I am watching to see what you do in your next video

Thank rxd. I see
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 04:33 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
There are others whose sole motive seems to be to show how clever they are (or not) and only confuse the issue.

Let others laugh and covered with greenery from fury. Max's basic objective is understand "what is temperament?"
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 05:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
There are others whose sole motive seems to be to show how clever they are (or not) and only confuse the issue.

Let others laugh and covered with greenery from fury. Max's basic objective is understand "what is temperament?"


At the rate we are progressing, that will become apparent by the 15th lesson.

In the meantime, there are many threads on this forum that explain, at least theoretically what temperament is.

Very basically it is the way an octave is divided up into its constituent intervals.

We all thought that your basic objective was to learn to tune pianos???
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 05:59 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
There are others whose sole motive seems to be to show how clever they are (or not) and only confuse the issue.

Let others laugh and covered with greenery from fury. Max's basic objective is understand "what is temperament?"

We all thought that your basic objective was to learn to tune pianos???

exactly
Posted by: ando

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 06:48 AM

Max, don't worry about temperament now. It's good news that you have only two things to focus on now: you need to use the temperament strip and mutes so that you can get good unisons (set the middle string in tune, then tune a second string to that, with the 3rd string muted, then finally, tune the 3rd string to the pair that is tuned.), and you need to put the lever on the pin at the correct angle as RXD said, to reduce flag-poling and increase stability of your tuning. Don't worry about anything else right now, that's for later. I think people will be happy to help you with other questions if you do these two things first. Best wishes.
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 07:50 AM

Ando.

This goes through an automatic translator so choice of words is important.
Using the lever at the right angle can be confusing. We're trying to stop Max using the lever at an angle to the strings. In fact we are asking for no right angle to the strings but simply in line with them.

Using the lever in line with the strings does not reduce flagpoling, it merely redirects it to where it has less effect on the pitch. We can talk about reducing flagpoling with thumb pressure later. These are not tight pins, remember.

Your statement " never tune a unison with three strings ringing" is strange. Are you a tuner? An unison can only be judged by what it sounds like with all three strings ringing. We can talk about coupling later, if that's what you mean. For now, those of us who want to help Max need to hear at least one completed simple three string unison. Max is already guessing at unisons.

I am not trying to control this thread but simply asking for care in not confusing the issues. The situation is already plagued with translation difficulties. Modern translators are amazing but still miss some subtleties of the languages.
Posted by: ando

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Ando.

This goes through an automatic translator so choice of words is important.
Using the lever at the right angle can be confusing. We're trying to stop Max using the lever at an angle to the strings. In fact we are asking for no right angle to the strings but simply in line with them.

Using the lever in line with the strings does not reduce flagpoling, it merely redirects it to where it has less effect on the pitch. We can talk about reducing flagpoling with thumb pressure later. These are not tight pins, remember.

Your statement " never tune a unison with three strings ringing" is strange. Are you a tuner? An unison can only be judged by what it sounds like with all three strings ringing. We can talk about coupling later, if that's what you mean. For now, those of us who want to help Max need to hear at least one completed simple three string unison. Max is already guessing at unisons.

I am not trying to control this thread but simply asking for care in not confusing the issues. The situation is already plagued with translation difficulties. Modern translators are amazing but still miss some subtleties of the languages.


Point taken. I have edited my post to remove any possible confusion. I was surprised to hear that you are concerned about how our words are translated though, because your posts frequently use unusual words which translators would have considerable problems with. Usually when you are showing frustration!

Am I a tuner? Well, I'm not a professional tuner, but I tune half a dozen pianos regularly, including my own. I use the standard methods you pros describe and I am very exacting with my standards. My unisons are very good and very stable. I won't pretend to be a master of temperaments however. I only joined in here to encourage Max and to try to speak in a simpler clearer way, which I feel some of you techs struggle with at times - especially when they are understandably frustrated by the poor communication and advice not being heeded.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 09:38 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Max is already guessing at unisons.

yeess...
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 09:42 AM

Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: rxd
Ando.

This goes through an automatic translator so choice of words is important.
Using the lever at the right angle can be confusing. We're trying to stop Max using the lever at an angle to the strings. In fact we are asking for no right angle to the strings but simply in line with them.

Using the lever in line with the strings does not reduce flagpoling, it merely redirects it to where it has less effect on the pitch. We can talk about reducing flagpoling with thumb pressure later. These are not tight pins, remember.

Your statement " never tune a unison with three strings ringing" is strange. Are you a tuner? An unison can only be judged by what it sounds like with all three strings ringing. We can talk about coupling later, if that's what you mean. For now, those of us who want to help Max need to hear at least one completed simple three string unison. Max is already guessing at unisons.

I am not trying to control this thread but simply asking for care in not confusing the issues. The situation is already plagued with translation difficulties. Modern translators are amazing but still miss some subtleties of the languages.


I only joined in here to encourage Max and to try to speak in a simpler clearer way,

Ando, I'll try understand
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 10:05 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Ando.

This goes through an automatic translator so choice of words is important.
Using the lever at the right angle can be confusing. We're trying to stop Max using the lever at an angle to the strings. In fact we are asking for no right angle to the strings but simply in line with them.

Your statement " never tune a unison with three strings ringing" is strange. Are you a tuner? An unison can only be judged by what it sounds like with all three strings ringing. We can talk about coupling later, if that's what you mean. For now, those of us who want to help Max need to hear at least one completed simple three string unison. Max is already guessing at unisons.


RXD, I was educted with 3 strings sounding, and indeed that is how the unison is tested, but dont you think it is easier to learn, to tune 2 "doublets" of 2 strings , that may have a smiliar construction, so they mix in an unity when they are ringing together ?

I dont talk of the final result, but the facility of the method, to learn, I believe it is easier to tune 2+2 than to tune 2+1, if you see what I mean.

I am sorry if that method can lend to some difficulties.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 11:11 AM

A = 440 I'm beating on key. I before put the mute (felt) to silence the other both. I'm put the mute before average and upper string. And I listen down string. If need I'm understate or lowers the it's sound. When a mute before average and down,find right sound upper string. I strongly beat on a key - a hammer beating on a 3 strings immediately and listen carefully. If I'm do not hear the accordion waves it's so ready unison
Posted by: Chris Storch

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 02:40 PM

Thank you for taking the time to do this Patrick. Very informative.

Roger Kirk published a 1959 study in the Journal of the Acoustical Society, where hid did essentially what you've done with your recordings, and then asked a number of trained and untrained listeners which 'flavor' unison they preferred. I had a hard time believing the conclusion he came to - that people could prefer a unison that could be as much as 1 cent or 2 cents out.

The wide unison you produced with -1 cent in the left string and +1 cent in the right string is 2 cents out/wide. And it gives an indication of one of the types of unisons Kirk's subjects were listening to. One which they said they liked! Hard to believe, but there it is.

Chris S.

Abstract of his paper:
"Unison strings of a concert grand piano were tuned to five “unison” conditions. The conditions were “zero‐beat” tuning and the upper string of three string unison groups tuned sharp and the lower string tuned flat by ½, 1, 2, and 3 cents relative to the center string. Magnetic tape recordings were made of the piano tuned under these conditions. These recordings in the form of a paired comparison preference test were presented to musically trained and untrained subjects. The most preferred tuning conditions for three string unison groups as recorded and reproduced from magnetic tape, are 1 and 2 cents maximum deviation among strings. Musically trained subjects prefer less deviation in tuning among unison strings than do untrained subjects. Close agreement was found between the subject′s tuning preferences and the way artist tuners actually tune piano unison strings."
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 03:22 PM

For a student tuner, perfectly still unisons are the only guide to how well the pins are set. If they are well set, the unison can stay in tune until a culmination of atmospheric changes destroys it. While it is nice to talk of the studies, every concert department I have worked for, and there are many, insists on still unisons. There are many because I love to live in different places and I have found work in most countries this way.

Right here, right now, those interested in Maxs progress will ask for still unisons as a reliable guide to his pin setting.

Isaac, I have no problem how this unison is attained, 2&2 or2&1 just so the final result is three strings sounding as one. This is purely as an excercise in tuning technique and it's assessment.

Ando. I have experience only of automatic translators into Japanese They use dictionaries and are at their best when exact words are used whether they are well known, commonly used words or not. You are right though, I have a tendency towards a turn of phrase when writing to posters I know.
Posted by: dancarney

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 03:36 PM

I believe that the technique rxd is alluding to is demonstrated quite well by the following photo. This is what many tuners regard as the optimum technique, albeit a 'classic' one. I use a similar technique, but choose to have my thumb a little closer to the pin (further down the lever).



Rxd, please correct me if this isn't what you're describing as I don't want to add to the confusion that this thread is causing for Max.
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 03:56 PM

Originally Posted By: dancarney
I believe that the technique rxd is alluding to is demonstrated quite well by the following photo. This is what many tuners regard as the optimum technique, albeit a 'classic' one. I use a similar technique, but choose to have my thumb a little closer to the pin (further down the lever).



Rxd, please correct me if this isn't what you're describing as I don't want to add to the confusion that this thread is causing for Max.


That's exactly it, Dan. It adds greatly. Holding the lever that way gives ultimate control.
A picture says 1000 words. Thank you.
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 04:01 PM

There certainly is no use in me using this thumb technique if like me, you tune uprights with your left hand .... the thumb does however come into its own when tuning grands using the right hand. I wonder how many tuners are trained to use left for uprights and right for grands these days ? Not many I suspect.
Posted by: dancarney

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 04:11 PM

Current college students at Newark College are instructed to use their left hand for uprights and their right for grands. In my opinion, this upright technique in the photo is easily transferred to a grand piano, so becomes an efficient use of time in regards to learning.

Posted by: Johnkie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 04:55 PM

That's good to hear Dan ... the reason for using different hands is all to do with a far better counteraction on the effect that flagpolling has. I appreciate many tuners tend to use levers right-handed and still manage very good stability, but in my training days, it was never considered best practice because wrestpins tend to bend in a counter productive way.
Posted by: BDB

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 05:02 PM

The important thing is to develop a feel, so you can tell whether the pins are rotating (good) or bending (bad).
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/28/13 05:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
That's good to hear Dan ... the reason for using different hands is all to do with a far better counteraction on the effect that flagpolling has. I appreciate many tuners tend to use levers right-handed and still manage very good stability, but in my training days, it was never considered best practice because wrestpins tend to bend in a counter productive way.


Yes the logical behind it is understandeable, it must also be easier for the body.

To avoid the problems on the pinblock , the thumb is used, but I belive after some time the classical posture is mostly used to have a better control on the axis of rotation with the lever. I for instance apply some light pressure in direction of the back of the piano.

Once used to any pin deformation, any method to hold the lever can be used because you know what the pin is doing, if it is more twisted, it need more time to stabilise, that is the main problem with slow pull, the advantage being of a very firm setting (active setting, if opposed as neutral setting)


For a starter , it is necessary to learn first yo control the wire motion.

Strangely, nobody stressed the importance of the playing hand.

The playing hand even help to listen.

VERY IMPORTANT : RAISE THE ANCKLE TO PROTECT YOUR BACK ON TALL PIANOS.
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 01:29 AM

Isaac, You are so right about the feeling of wire motion. It is of supreme importance when a piano has to be tuned quietly or in older pianos or pianos with steep capos or other high friction. It is generally thought that a heavy blow on the key will take care of it but this assumes that piano tuners can hit a key harder than anyone else !!!!.
We ignore it at our peril.

In general, it would be nice to define our terms. We all talk of bending, flexing, flagpoling, deforming pins interchangeably. Are there some subtle differences that I'm missing?? To be really pedantic, tuning pins don't do any of these things in the normal course of tuning or stringing. Put one in a vise and try to bend it with your favourite tuning tool. The rigid pin moves in the wood. Is there a term that anybody uses? Flagpoling creates the most accurate picture of them all for me.

Thanks, Johnkie, I had forgotten left handed tuning for uprights. One of my teachers tuned uprights that way yet he was quite comfortable with me using my right hand. Then he tells me that he was taught to tune with a T hammer.

I used lefthanded tuning for a time when I had to tune uprights tucked in corners as so many are. As I remember, I took to it quite easily, I don't know why I changed back. Don't you find yourself using the three fingers on the lower part of the handle as a sort of fulcrum?

It seems some methods seek to neutralise the effect of flagpoling, some to control it, yet others to glory in it.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 02:49 AM

Hi rxd.

I did some testing with Klinke tuning pins, and it is relatively easy yo bend them definitively (while doing so in a pinblock ?) the resiliency of the metal of the pin is not that far of the wood of the block (hopefully, if not the blocks should wear way much than they do)
I am talking of first grade tuning pins. They ARE stressed by the wire to a significant point.

That is why I say on an old block having the piano at pitch can even help the tuning pin to keep its place .

If you manage the string so it will keep the pin in place , you only have to be attentive to hammer position, so to have no flagpoling at the moment the string set the pin....

I agree we use lot of terms . I talk of twist because I can twist a pin in its top segment around 50 cts before the foot of the pin move, sometime (talk of tuning from above !) this provide a lot of extra tension to lock the pin (I take care not to do so if I feel the strings are prone to break )

The way the pin is more or less stiffened by the string change the tone.
Extra active setting raise the fundamental, tend to lower ih, make a more american tone.(partials straightened and lining more quietly, less brillancy/transparency)

Lighter setting left the string more free, more brillant and lively tone, less long lasting. Could be used for tone reasons then. ( but mostly for time constrain)

With time and many tunings even a moderate pin setting have its place . But it takes numerous tunings to get there.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 03:18 AM

The pins are way softer than a steel bolt. They flex and spring back . The block also have some flex that id , when it is new.

To me flagpoling is when the effort is oriented sideways not in direction of the string axis. (I wondered some time if this was not ONLY when the tuner nudge the hammer)

Twist is in the axis of the pin (i.e. a torque with similar pressure than the one exerted by the wire on the diameter of the pin , generates an approx 1° twist of the pin on itself)..to be computed more precisely...

Some bending occur as well but mostly if the lever is pushed on may be it can bend the pin definitively at some point depending of the quality of the pin .


The springiness of the pin can be raised if the pin is made stiffer by twisting it on itself. Then the tuner have optimum control on a too stretched wire, moving more easily across friction points as long enough energy is provided by the playing hand.

More usual way of tuning send impulse trains along the whole springy assembly.

Posted by: Johnkie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 05:55 AM

I very much like your "springiness" term for the wrestpin Oleg! It's exactly what we tuners have to struggle with in order to accomplish a first class tuning that will stand the test of time .... something essential if completing concert work. In all of my 47 years as a tuner I've never had cause to worry about bending a wrestpin whilst working. The risk of exerting so much force during tuning that leads to a wrestpin bending or damage to a plank (block)is very much only something in the domain of either the less experienced or downright bad tuners.

When large adjustments are needed, such as pitch raising, then one only has the option of turning the wrestpin to somewhere near target... always pulling sharp of target and dropping down. It's pointless spending time trying to get perfection in these situations ... not only are your fighting with setting the pin, but the change in tension of every individual string affects the neighbouring strings, as the bridge and soundboard flexes in response to the extra loads.

Now, returning to the subject of "bending, flexing, flagpoling or my preferred ... springiness" ... When the tuning is near enough to only warrant a touch up ... I guess something RxD, myself and many others here do all the time ... then it becomes impossible to end up with a stable tuning unless you approach the task from the angle of working with the springiness of the pin to obtain the tiny adjustments needed to get as near perfection as possible. Turning a wrestpin in these situations tends only to result in instability. The adjustments needed are so small that a light nudge is all that is needed initially, after which one merely has to work with the "springiness" of the wrestpin to stabilise the final target. Anyone worrying too much about bending, flagpoling, or damaging a plank during tuning should maybe consider taking up another profession...the force needed in fine tuning is in truth .... featherlight.

Apologies for going slightly off topic, but I worry that so many here appear to be in danger of brutalising their patients when finesse is all that is needed.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 08:09 AM

Yes John, certainly we dont bend definitively pins in normal curse of tuning (while I heard of pin that wher find bend when dismounting them (possibly bend at the time they where hammered during stringing, dont you think?)

I consider now that on a given piano (in moderately adverse hygrometry conditions, so not pitch correction is needed at each tuning) at some point the tuner install a "definitive pin setting" which is locating the "bed" of the tuning pin at the very bottom of the hole, the portion above that point being braked in the wood by the tension coming from the wire.

It seem that toobtain this, a huge pin's firmness is necessary, but I was surprised to discover that it was not an absolute necessity.

Of course the level of springness allowed by the couple pin/pinblock (to counteract the 75 Kg springness of the wire) is higher with a firm block, but due to the springness of the pin itself, I wonder if a softer torque in the block can not be raised artificially.

It is by evidence and as I experimented, with the tiny twisting of the pin on itself ,even if the twist is half a degree it makes the pin spring inside the hole, and obtain a better grip by opposite forces on the walls of the hole.

BTW this is "normal" pin setting, simply to "charge " a pin in an old block one need more slow manipulations, while in a firm block this can be done in automatic mode by the rebound of the wave coming from the wire with the test blow

Then the front segment can be a little more tense than the sounding lenght

By the conter clockwise move of the tuning pin, usually done to take out the stress installed in the pin while raising pitch, but can be made "active" if the pin is left volontary stressed/torqued the other direction.

- For the pin itself


For years I was subtle in my pin setting, I mean I left the pin in a very neutral position, in a way anticipating its future turning/twisting)

That mean I find pianos more firm after they have been played, I was very proud of my ability to anticipate the way the system will be stiffer - But despite the braking that occur most of the time, I did not obtain a really firm pin setting, that mean it was very easy to move the pin later, more to raise the tone than to lower but I felt not so much resistance than with the tunings of some colleagues (where I find the tuning pin hard to unlock any direction)

So I basically obtained a "natural", neutral, pin setting, where the pin is hold in place by the upper segment tension, but not so firm at its bottom.

A little less thickness of tone, more energy lost may be between the upper segment and the pin as the "knot" is located there it makes also a portion of the system that damp vibrations.

THen I was shown how the slow pull tuning could raise the stiffness of the pin a bit more, allowing for a front segment a bit more tense.
Tone wise there is much energy that goes thru the pinblock, the fixation of the string is more firm in an audible way.

With the diseavantage that the tendency if a string goes out of tune, is to raise, more than lower (particularely if the stiffening have been done too much)

Once experimented with those two extremes, you can manipulate the system in any way you want.

The really huge advantage of manipulating the wire and pin with all that extra torque is precision, the feeling of the wire is straightforward on most pianos.
Then once the string and pin are "charged" one another the whole system can be manipulated very lightly and precisely, as you say John, or RXD, moving a hair the whole stiffened system is possible.
But first at one point the "definitive bed" of the tuning pin have to be created.
It would be interesting to examine the inside of the tuning pin hole with a micrometer, and notice where the deformations occur.

If I want to join what you say RXD, we can consider the pin is rigid, and why not the string also, I really feel like manipulating a very rigid part when tuning; rigid yes, but only to the point it can vibe as does the string, the upper segments, and very probably the tuning pin itself.

What is surprising is how I find the torque left in the tuning pin, when I come later, most of the notes have kept the same equilibrium even on old blocks.
The one that don't creates some "black holes", and generally speaking the attack is not as incisive it was originally, but pitch wise I don't experiment much motion (I find a piano raised to 444 however, due to stiff tuning pins probably)

Originally I was explained that we allow a little security by allowing the front segment (and pin) to be a little over tense and that, for concert or heavily played pianos.

The logic behind it was that a raised string will not be noticed as much as the opposite , in an unison.

I actually put most of the effect on the pin itself, hence the risk of raise.

Hard blows are yet necessary as tests.

Feeling (measuring) the level of elongation in the string, upper segment and tuning pin, is necessary when installing that first raising to pitch , with some evaluation of the bridge motion (overpull mode)

Final nudging require then very little modification to the pin posture,if any, as you state.

The game remain to install the tuning in one pass , but this is more a personal challenge than anything else.

Most pianos I tune now are in need of "large touch up" next year, that mean, high treble and low basses are correct, and the zone that moved, in the mediums is smaller than usually.




Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 08:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek

It would be interesting to examine the inside of the tuning pin hole with a micrometer, and notice where the deformations occur.

No need to use any equipment to see the obvious depreciation the wooden part is at the bottom of the bush and in the upper portion of the hole in pinblock verticals. At the grand opposite happens
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 09:04 AM

Originally Posted By: dancarney
I use a similar technique


dancarney,the vertical piano need tuning to lever handle only 9-12 (left or right) hand. This method saves the resource mounting seat of wood
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 09:12 AM

MAX I am sorry writing too long and too complicated things.

I tell you now the first, most effective and simple method to learn how to manipulate the lever and tuning pin.

On a vertical old piano :

0° install the mute or felt strip

Make tour lever in direction of the strings (12:00 13:00)

1° turn VERY lightly the pin IN REVERSE direction, may be 1° is enough so to feel the BOTTOM of the pin moved a little.

2° Then DO NOT TRY TO TURN the pin first when you begin to move it
Try to FEEL the bottom of the pin motion

A which moment does it move ? (On old pianos it moves often immediately)

Try to find some springiness in the pin, that mean on a vertical, you turn it so slowly that the tone change while the bottom of the pin does not move yet.

Try to have the bottom of the pin move later of your motion with the lever

That move is what you will install (partially) in the other direction to lock the pin.

If there is no way (the bottom of pin moves always immediately) go on reverse (counterclockwise) once again, and if not, once again , etc (it can be necessary to do so 3 to 6 times before the pin begin to grip a little at its bottom.

If it does not, you can tap a little the pin with a hammer( push it 1-2 mm in the block), or repair.

Usually if the tuning pin cannot provide any differential motion between the higher region and the bottom, the tuning will not stay put.

ON A VERTICAL, TURN AS WASHING A WINDOW, IN THE ROTATIONAL PLANE
------

ON a YAMAHA grand piano for instance (with normal pins):

Put the mute between 2 strings

Put the lever at 13:00, 14:00

Add SLOWLY some torque to the lever IN THE ROTATIONAL PLANE OF THE PIN USE YOUR THUMB TO MAKE THAT EXACT MOTION - the pin deform, but the tone does not change

DO NOT TRY TO CHANGE THE NOTE WITH THE LEVER

ALLOW ONLY THE STRESS ON THE LEVER, AND HAVE THE STRING MOVE BECAUSE YOUR OTHER HAND PLAY THE NOTE REPEATEDLY AND OFTEN

DONT TRY TO LISTEN FOR BEATS AT THAT STAGE


WHEN YOU HEAR THE NOTE CHANGING, ADD MORE PRESSURE TO THE LEVER UNTIL YOU HEAR IT "CRACK"

TUNE WITH THE PLAYING HAND, NOT WITH THE LEVER ONLY

YOU WILL FEEL THE SENSATIONS CHANGING IN THE LEVER.

THOSE ARE THE SENSATIONS YOU NEED TO RECOGNISE THRU THE LEVER AND THAT ALLOW TO SPRING THE PIN IN DIFFERNT POSITIONS,

YAMAHA BASIC INSTRUCTIONS ARE :

PLAY THE NOTE REPEATEDLY
STRESS THE LEVER
WAIT FOR THE PIN TO CRACK (move at its bottom)

IT IS SIMILAR ON VERTICAL PIANOS ACTUALLY, WE ARE OFTEN OBLIGED TO BRAKE THE UPPER REGION OF THE PIN WITH SOME PRESSURE SO THE BOTTOM MOVE LATER. ON AN OLD BLOCK

DO NOT TRY TO TUNE BEFORE HAVING ENOUGH SPRINGNESS IN THE TUNING PIN

SORRY FOR THE CAPITALS

PUT MUTE
PUSH COUNTERCLOCKWISE
TURN VERY SLOWLY UNTIL THE PIN MOVE
USE THE PLAYING HAND TO MOVE THE STRING

USE A VERY RIGID TUNING LEVER

HARPSICHORD USE NOT PIN SETTING HENCE THE USE OF T LEVERS

IT CAN BE DONE BUT IT IS MORE DIFFICULT WE NEED MORE FORCE THAN WHAT IS AVAILABLE WITH T LEVER

DO NOT TRY TO LISTEN FOR BEATS, TRY FIRST TO PLAY THE NOTES OFTEN ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH THE ENERGY NEEDED TO MOVE ALL PARTS.

THE ERA HEAR THE TONE GETTING BETTER ALMOST AUTOMATICALLY
THEN ONLY YOU CAN LISTEN TO DETAILS

see that rough tuning :


the tuner goes very slowly and unstress the pin and wire before



Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 09:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: dancarney
I use a similar technique


dancarney,the vertical piano need tuning to lever handle only 9-12 (left or right) hand. This method saves the resource mounting seat of wood


YOU WILL UNDERTAND THAT BETTER LATER MAX, DO JUST WHAT WE SAY TO YOU

CERTAINLY NOT RIGHT (15:00) ON A VERTICAL THAT IS THE WORSE FOR THE BED OF THE PIN


I begin to believe you are particularly stupid


I understand your need to be a hero of pianos, by discovering something new, but in my opinion you are yet by trying to take care of the pianos where you live (unless there is some real tuner active and discrete yet in the region)

You will be a real hero for me the day you will have understood and provide an usual tuning with standard techniques.

And I, for sure say that you will then have some merit, due to the difficulty you have to just do what is explained to you.

Meanwhile there are a few tuners without master have understood how to obtain a good setting and they are now working justness. (then they will eventually need an even more precise method with tuning lever but we have to go step by step)

Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 09:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: dancarney
I use a similar technique


dancarney,the vertical piano need tuning to lever handle only 9-12 (left or right) hand. This method saves the resource mounting seat of wood


YOU WILL UNDERTAND THAT BETTER LATER MAX, DO JUST WHAT WE SAY TO YOU

CERTAINLY NOT RIGHT (15:00) ON A VERTICAL THAT IS THE WORSE FOR THE BED OF THE PIN


I begin to believe you are particularly stupid


Isaac,thank you for your participation and support. Why such large letters? Max may be hard of hearing, but still sees
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 10:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: dancarney
I use a similar technique


dancarney,the vertical piano need tuning to lever handle only 9-12 (left or right) hand. This method saves the resource mounting seat of wood


YOU WILL UNDERTAND THAT BETTER LATER MAX, DO JUST WHAT WE SAY TO YOU

CERTAINLY NOT RIGHT (15:00) ON A VERTICAL THAT IS THE WORSE FOR THE BED OF THE PIN


I begin to believe you are particularly stupid


Isaac,thank you for your participation and support. Why such large letters? Max may be hard of hearing, but still sees


it is to avoid confusion between important things and others, only. I apologized yet about.

That said if I could write loud to you I sure would wink

I believe you not need to hear more at that time, and first learn to have the string exactly where you want.

Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 10:17 AM

Here is another rough tuning with more standard method (the horizontal lever is just because of lazyness and to give a rest to the neck and back !) There is also NO pin setting theren, also due to laziness or lack of technique




Rxd will be happy , more than with the last video !

If you want to protect your neck and back, raise more the elbow than there and sit more laterally while holding the lever 13:00
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 11:02 AM

Max.

When you get the chance, translate the last few days of posting. There is a valuable discussion there that you should benefit from.

Do something for me. Forget your homespun philosophy and hold your lever just like the photograph that Dan has thoughtfully posted for you. You won't damage your piano.

In the meantime hang in there, we promise we'll get back to you.

Gentlemen, (edit. I posted this before I saw isaacs recent comic video. I took a long time between starting this post and finishing it. I Have t go out now more later)

I have nothing to add. I like the word springiness, it implies any motion that will spring back.

There are two springy directions, the spring before the pin turns which is felt as a twisting motion just before the pin turns with an unsupported lever, and the spring of flagpoling. Can we define our terms to cover that difference?

I didn't know there was that much flexibility in some pins. I would still ask if it bends in the course of the kind of tuning that we are talking about and would you try to bend one with your favourite tuning tool that you wouldnt risk damaging? Which makers are using them?
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 03:59 PM

So to say, Max you are not the only one to forget to set the pin.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/13 05:52 PM

s I wrote I have bend a few tuning pins in a wise.

I really believe we cannot bend pins without damaging the block

What I was trying to understand is what force is necessary to really change the shape of the pin (as I dont really understand how a poor pinblock can raise in torque only with pin setting method.

I used Klinke pins (the ones in Steinways) you bang on them witha hammer and have a nice imprint , the springiness is a little larger than expected ; what surprized me was the softness of the metal

I used a dynamometer to check a which torque the pin moves on itself, and find a little more than 1 degree when applying a similar torque than a wire.

But of course it was not real conditions, the 1/3 of the threaded part was hold in a vice mostly the upper part was twisting, the torque wrench have a tuning pin shape.

This could be computed, using some formula, I asked a friend who works in an engineer school, but we need to know what exact material is the pin. (and take in account the flex of the pinblock)



Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 12:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
but we need to know what exact material is the pin. (and take in account the flex of the pinblock)

Isaac,I would also wish to know about the properties of pin. First of all about their strength characteristics. However, European pin probably very different from the Soviet ones. How can I do analizes with this information?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 01:01 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Max.
When you get the chance, translate the last few days of posting. There is a valuable discussion there that you should benefit from.
Do something for me. Forget your homespun philosophy and hold your lever just like the photograph that Dan has thoughtfully posted for you. You won't damage your piano.

rxd,I really try to do it primarily for themselves. However, it is very difficult to understand and take anything into service when I don't see little point of this topic. Yesterday I worked (a photo of Dan) 0 hour to 13, but I feeling that a pin to springs in the opposite direction and did not give me to fix the right tone. Perhaps it is because it is very old vertical "Ukraine" 1958 year......
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 01:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Here is another rough tuning with more standard method (the horizontal lever is just because of lazyness and to give a rest to the neck and back !)


This is very harmful video. So you can not tuning the vertical old! Twist here and there a pin. Sitting it is unacceptable. At the end of the piano sounds wrong, it's worse than Max's temperament
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 06:23 AM

LOok at the way the tuner works at 1:09 :



Optimum way to manipulate a tuning lever on a grand.

As the piano is new no very firm pin setting needed at this stage.
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 07:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Max.
When you get the chance, translate the last few days of posting. There is a valuable discussion there that you should benefit from.
Do something for me. Forget your homespun philosophy and hold your lever just like the photograph that Dan has thoughtfully posted for you. You won't damage your piano.

rxd,I really try to do it primarily for themselves. However, it is very difficult to understand and take anything into service when I don't see little point of this topic. Yesterday I worked (a photo of Dan) 0 hour to 13, but I feeling that a pin to springs in the opposite direction and did not give me to fix the right tone. Perhaps it is because it is very old vertical "Ukraine" 1958 year......


Max. I hope I'm understanding you right. The pin springing in the opposite direction is what you should feel. Simply pull the string sharp by the same amount that it springs back. That way the pin spring back onto the pitch and will be better set. You may have to play the key a bit harder but not brutal to make sure the friction points of the string are dealt with. You will eventually begin to feel all this in the pin, You will develop a whole range of different types of manipulation of the pin. Confine yourself to the middle notes right now. I think they're easier.

When the pitch is about right, use this spring you are experiencing in a slight very small rocking motion above and below the pitch a couple of times until the spring gets less and the pitch is right. With practice you will make the spring go away entirely The pitch will stay there better. Make sure your thumb is on the side of the handle and certainly not on the front like the person in the blue shirt video.

The way you were doing it before, you were not feeling this spring and so were not in control. The spring was there and so was the effect of Flagpoling but the combined effect was that you were feeling neither. It may feel strange, even awkward for a while to do it like Dans photo. Please persevere. Feeling what you feel is progress With more thumb pressure at the side of the lever, the springiness will be less. With the right balance between the thumb pressure and the fingers pulling and the elbow high enough you will sometimes be able to turn the pin in very small increments without any spring. Practice practice practice.

"feel the spring"

" the spring is our friend" it tells us where we are.

Read what Johnkie says about this in his last two posts.

Anything to add or clarify, John? Im not sure I was very clear, ( too many words) perhaps you could put it another way or point out where I might be misconstrued.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 07:46 AM

As say RXD you need that spring to move the string, and to set if firmly.

In fine the spring is not "gone" but it is counter acted by the spring of the wire.

To be sure of the correct equilibrium of tension between the tuning pin and the spring after having done those back and forth motions many tuners use a light Push and Pull test:

Just when you finish to set the pin and string, at this moment the wire is yet free enough, on many pianos, so you can change its pitch by a LIGHT BENDING (lightly) UP and DOWN.

You listen to the tone change :

The tone must raise more easily than it lowers (about 1/3 2/3)

That mean that the pin is not only set , but it actively participate to the locking of the wire.

If you choose for a neutral setting, you may be able to rock the pin with similar tone change up and down, that is how I was instructed.

That way the pin is neutral, that mean it is yet stressed by the wire but get back to its position at rest, so you don't feel the spring so much.
You can feel in in the bending motion.

If you move back and forth the hammer and the final pitch is too low or too high, the relation between the pin and the wire is incorrect.

I do not speak of bending a pin like that (it needed around 40-50 Kg pressure) but using the last springiness really perceptible in the pin

Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 08:08 AM

The pin is springing in a very light helical shape when you raise the pitch.

Then you may at last unstress that deformation or make it active the other direction, which is more difficult.

That helical motion allow the tuning pin to jump in the block by very small increments.

Tuning a piano is like manipulating a very long spring by an extremity . the spring is made in motion by the impacts of the hammer, and the torque you have allowed it is then released.


To experiment what level of springiness a tuning pin have, just install it in a vice and test with your tuning hammer.

IF you install it horizontal and put a 70-80Kg weight on the handle of the lever, you will see how much motion may happen.

There are 2 moves as said RXD, the twist (helical) because the tuning pin is inserted in the walls of the pinblock
And the bending (we control bending by putting the hammer in a position it is not favoured )

But the most twist and bends are allowed, the more springy your pin will be and this may be at our advantage , for instance on a piano with the strings that move too easily, we use more bending and twisting on the upper part of the tuning pin, and play hard enough so the wave coming from the string "unlock" the bottom of the pin . Then you hear a "crack" and you feel the motion, and you are sure the bottom of the pin have changed orientation.

It is there of the utmost importance that the pressure is not damaging the hole at the place the string will push the tuning pin in the end.

SO starters learn to manipulate the hammer first perfectly in the rotation plane of the pin.

All the job done without feeling the bottom moving is useless and will move as soon you leave the pin.
Even first grade tuners experiment very light motion of a wire sometime even with a very firm pin setting.

Playing often and strong enough the note allow to be sure of that.


Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 09:34 AM

At 2:30 +- you see how the pin is worked (on a very new piano)



On older blocks you need to support more the lever an the pin is harder to feel, you feel more the force of the string than the one of the pin.
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 09:57 AM

Update. We had piano competition Sunday. 4-5 Returning student now doin advanced degrees, under academic teachers. One or two of them broke strings. I finally repaired them this morning. Pleasantly gratified that the string breaking pianos were last tuned during my revisit with the T-hammer. Both pianos that had been played with string breaking vulgarity stayed in tune amazingly. they had done well for 2-3 weeks. Score the string breakers came in. Surprised myself, to be honest. I used only rotational movements, even though the handle on my T- hammer wrings slightly (some rotational lost motion) and used only very light flagpoling in order to locate the point of balance from that aspect. Finishing with a very slight clockwise and flagpole towards me if I felt I could "afford" it and I sensed drag in the rather steep capo and elsewhere. Mostly on the pins nearest me and near the breaks. The ones with good follow I could finish with a slight counter lock wise and forward motion. There were times that I wanted to simply turn the pin as I can with my lever but couldn't. Could be a lack of fully developed technique on
my part.

These are reasonably good quality pinblocks on pianos 15 yrs old one x top two restring. the other pianos were better pin blocks, same age. Same results. Probably less savage use.

The tuning operation went slightly faster too. I completed each unison as I progressed the way I normally do.

Just one persons experience, but there it is for anyone interested.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 10:11 AM

Good idea, I will try , now that I use a "full twisting" technique I will possibly have a similar surprise.

What is difficult with a T hammer is to wave the pin to obtain the very little motion of the pin foot if the note really untuned.

Did you have to move the bottom of the pin on most notes when tuning with the T hammer ? on regularely tuned pianos, often only the equilibrium between speking lenght and front segment of pin is to be reinstalled. then the bottom of the pin have to be moved only if you leave a "neutral" setting.

Possibly overpull is larger with the T hammer, hence string fatigue, what do you think ?


When I tune , those days, I "tune with the playing hand" a lot, and I "listen to the pin" with the lever wink
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 12:26 PM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Max.
When you get the chance, translate the last few days of posting. There is a valuable discussion there that you should benefit from.
Do something for me. Forget your homespun philosophy and hold your lever just like the photograph that Dan has thoughtfully posted for you. You won't damage your piano.

rxd,I really try to do it primarily for themselves. However, it is very difficult to understand and take anything into service when I don't see little point of this topic. Yesterday I worked (a photo of Dan) 0 hour to 13, but I feeling that a pin to springs in the opposite direction and did not give me to fix the right tone. Perhaps it is because it is very old vertical "Ukraine" 1958 year......


Max. I hope I'm understanding you right. The pin springing in the opposite direction is what you should feel. Simply pull the string sharp by the same amount that it springs back. That way the pin spring back onto the pitch and will be better set. You may have to play the key a bit harder but not brutal to make sure the friction points of the string are dealt with. You will eventually begin to feel all this in the pin, You will develop a whole range of different types of manipulation of the pin. Confine yourself to the middle notes right now. I think they're easier.


I see.rxd,all true. If I understand you correctly, I'm need to increase the tension of the string, when I'm tuning the old pinblock of a piano. I'm doing "slightly restring" toward overestimation tone. Then the pressure of the string pin is set in his seat and gives the correct string of tone. All three strings in the chorus should sound without beats, so I spend some time watching the "behavior of the pins" that it's got in the last position. If it has a small frictions a pin with the wood hole.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 12:32 PM

Originally Posted By: rxd
I used only rotational movements, even though the handle on my T- hammer wrings slightly (some rotational lost motion) and used only very light flagpoling in order to locate the point of balance from that aspect. Finishing with a very slight clockwise and flagpole towards me if I felt I could "afford" it and I sensed drag in the rather steep capo and elsewhere. Mostly on the pins nearest me and near the breaks.

What was the need to tuning this piano with T-hammer? Very tight pins?
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 02:41 PM

If what you wrote is from your experience and not merely repeating what you have read, then I think you are getting it. Some terms you use are not quite exact but, with the language difficulty, it sounds good enough to me. More practice unisons. If you want variety, try an octave getting 6 strings as beatless as you can.

I used the T- hammer for a few days so that everything I wrote about it here was from direct experience and I needed to refresh my memory. It also provides some variety for me. To many posters on here repeat what they think they have been told or what they imagine might happen with no practical experience.
I can only write from my own direct experience.

So a short, partial answer to why I tuned those pianos with a T- hammer would be, for you.

Now forget it for the time being because you have gone back to the lever. Stay with that and concentrate on it.

Practice.
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 03:00 PM

As I understand things T hammers were more suited to tuning early pianos. Modern instruments have planks that are very much firmer generally. Although tuning can in theory still be completed using them, the reality is that it is much more difficult to obtain ease of wrestpin movement, and the wrist strength needed can be considerable.

I imagine RxD, like me, is so used to merely having to touch up instruments that he tunes on such a regular basis, that wrestpin movement is rarely needed. In such cases the use 5of the humble T hammer can easily achieve the tiny adjustments needed to bring any minor tuning issues back into line.

Once again this underlines the need to be able to read the wrestpin. Good quality tuners rarely need anything other than tiny wrestpin adjustments, more akin to settling it back into its own comfortable postion, as opposed to adding unequalised stress through inflicting actual movement within the plank.

I don't regard many posts here are helping Max in the slightest. They are far too advanced and complicated even for the more experienced members here who have a command of English.

He should start again from the basics .... concentrating on being able to demonstrate clean unisons and octaves, slowly progressing to temperament and intervals ... but only after grasping the concept and being able to demonstrate clean unisons and octaves. His attitude often comes across as confrontational rather than indicating a genuine wish to improve.

He has a long road to travel, and unless he can begin to demonstrate progress within a reasonable time frame, instead of arguing and confronting those prepared to offer their good advice, whilst at the same time, continuing to promote himself as a "Teacher" ... then perhaps we should waste no further time and save our breath for those more worthy.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/30/13 03:45 PM

YEs John I know, but that was the opportunity to discuss with more interesting people that pushed me to state my own present view and experience on the subject.

We have no real clear demonstration of the forces acting when tuning, never find any concrete in books or discussions. Videos often show nothing or only a partial job done, or fancy things out of primal interest.

plus, we need imaginative words to describe what we are doing

I agree T lever is OK for soft enough pinblocks, agreable to avoid any bending, but not adapted to real tuning with lot of pin motion, today. (I have used mine for a few pianos some years ago)
Posted by: pppat

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/31/13 10:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: pppat
Hi Max (and all others, too),

you are getting a lot of good suggestions from other posters here. I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off. I recorded my piano tonight, and here are the sound files:

First, I tuned the left and right strings of D4 to the center string with an electronic tuning device. After that, the unison sounded like this:
L/R strings tuned to center string, Reyburn Cybertuner

There is a little bit of sizzling partials there, so I checked the single strings. They sounded like this:
D4, strings one-by-one

The left string was indeed a bit "busy" in itself. I tweaked the unison aurally, and this is what I came up with:
L/R to center string, aurally

Then I detuned the right string +1 cent and the left string -1 cent, giving a unison that is 2 cents wide in its frequency range:
Detuning the unison: L -1 cent, R +1 cent

Can you hear how that unison "moans"? It sounds like there's an effect on it, like a chorus or flanger pedal used for guitars.

I tuned them back, and I post that file, too. You can hear how I'm working with the tuning hammer and with the hand hitting the keys. When the strings fall into place, the sound is longer, clearer and more powerful than if the strings do not couple with each other:
re-tuning the unison

This is the kind of sound you should be looking for in your unison tuning. Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!

Hope this helps,
Patrick





Kudos to you Patrick for making the effort to post your recordings.

Is it just me, or did all those single unisons have false beats? The real demonstration in those recordings is how the cybertuner could not mask the FB but you did a wonderful job by ear.


smile I heard the same false beats, Mark, the strings were all kind of alive and kicking, one-by-one. The hammers on the piano are rather worn, too. I brushed them slightly before I did the recording. It got better, but I will have to replace them with a new hammer set soon.

And thank you for your endorsement of the aurally-tuned unisons vs. the CyberTuners dead-on lock - I certainly liked them better, too. Especially when it comes down to false beats, the ear can practice "flower arranging" and put together a quite nice bouqet in a way that I have a hard time seeing an ETD do.

Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Thank you for taking the time to do this Patrick. Very informative.

Roger Kirk published a 1959 study in the Journal of the Acoustical Society, where hid did essentially what you've done with your recordings, and then asked a number of trained and untrained listeners which 'flavor' unison they preferred. I had a hard time believing the conclusion he came to - that people could prefer a unison that could be as much as 1 cent or 2 cents out.

The wide unison you produced with -1 cent in the left string and +1 cent in the right string is 2 cents out/wide. And it gives an indication of one of the types of unisons Kirk's subjects were listening to. One which they said they liked! Hard to believe, but there it is.

Chris S.

Abstract of his paper:
"Unison strings of a concert grand piano were tuned to five “unison” conditions. The conditions were “zero‐beat” tuning and the upper string of three string unison groups tuned sharp and the lower string tuned flat by ½, 1, 2, and 3 cents relative to the center string. Magnetic tape recordings were made of the piano tuned under these conditions. These recordings in the form of a paired comparison preference test were presented to musically trained and untrained subjects. The most preferred tuning conditions for three string unison groups as recorded and reproduced from magnetic tape, are 1 and 2 cents maximum deviation among strings. Musically trained subjects prefer less deviation in tuning among unison strings than do untrained subjects. Close agreement was found between the subject′s tuning preferences and the way artist tuners actually tune piano unison strings."


Thank's Chris, this is certainly interesting! I know of quite a few people preferring twangy unisons, too. I think they get accustomed to "the warmth" of slightly out-of-tune unisons.

Even though one might suspect that I'd be heavily biased since taking up tuning, I always liked very pure unisons on the piano, even as a child. Aah, the sound of those big, silvery raindrops. Many movie soundtracks feature that sound, and there is nothing quite like it.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/31/13 12:20 PM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Some terms you use are not quite exact but, with the language difficulty, it sounds good enough to me.
I can only write from my own direct experience.

So a short, partial answer to why I tuned those pianos with a T- hammer would be, for you.
you have gone back to the lever. Stay with that and concentrate on it.

Practice.

Dear rxd, I carefully study all that you write about that topic. I'm sorry that you had to hard to translate my gibberish. Now I'm a lot of practice with the lever. Octaves, fifths, fourths, and major third.
I am honored that you have worked with a T-bar for me.
Now , few days I concentrated on the lever, I hope I can do it.
Regards Your student extra-mural Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/31/13 11:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie


I don't regard many posts here are helping Max in the slightest. They are far too advanced and complicated even for the more experienced members here who have a command of English.
He has a long road to travel, and unless he can begin to demonstrate progress within a reasonable time frame, instead of arguing and confronting those prepared to offer their good advice, whilst at the same time, continuing to promote himself as a "Teacher" ... then perhaps we should waste no further time and save our breath for those more worthy.

Johnkie,you are mistaken. Max is not "a teacher" but a "perpetual student". Theme is created not for Max. It is for anyone interested in understanding their own temperament in practice and a test understand of others. Max realizes not all, but he tries. That it is helped him messages of members our forum
Posted by: Emmery

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/01/13 12:05 AM

I hate to say this, but if you tuned unisons with strings 2 cents apart for some of my customers, they would be inclined to ask you to return when your feeling better. I've been called to tune/touch up pianos where they were better than that to begin with.

There are many tooners who try and get a perfectly clear unison and are convinced they have it and its really out by a few cents...why would any professional want to take two steps backwards and try and emulate that which another person comes up short on?
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/01/13 04:37 AM

The fact is that the tone of strings is too much instable to the ETD to really appreciate clearly the levels I noticed , which are 0.1 to 0.4 cts (far from 1ct I admit, and it was in mediums on a low level iH scale)

But this will probably depend of the kind of scale and the condition the strings a piano have.

As none of us take some time (once the piano is tuned) to pluck the strings and listen attentively to them one by one trying to hear which one is perfctly coupling with another and which one is there to regulate the dynamic of the unison, those effect most of us use without knowing (as soon they understood how a nice sounding unison speaks)

We dont ascertain how things really go on in the pianos, in the end.

To obtain that very clear and , more important, manageable attack, the pitch of the strings have some slight difference.
If not your tuning can stand for one hour playing maximum.

MAny pianists hate any moaning in unisons, it must be crisp, clear and with amanageable aftertone (meaning the attack allow to enflate the aftertone in a clear sustained tone without any perceptible beat)

Too much concentration of justness immediately use most of the energy for the attack then the aftersound is short and , strangely the dynamic even the one of the attack, is reduced)

I suppose that good tuners shape the tone, stop thinking beats or ETD display, and then the problem is to have enough distance with the tone produced, to hear it as if it is a few meters apart. (what I call having quiet ears)

concentrating on beats in the partials helps to be attentive, but give no controal on the final dynamic quality of the tone.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/01/13 10:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek

But this will probably depend of the kind of scale and the condition the strings a piano have.

Once I tuning a unison F4. There was some extra beat in the strings. The average string is the usual that is 0.7 mm. On each side of the string were looking more big diametr. I made specifically remeasure is 0.73 mm. Unison I built, but the upper harmonics added additional overtones. Note F4 and E4 respectively had a rich sound. The pianist, who tested the setting wrinkled his brow when the chords come across these sounds. Three hundredths not misrepresented the location is the problem
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/01/13 11:57 AM

Max.
It is likely that you will come across unusual repairs in some of the pianos you see. Often the correct size wire may not be a available. It is possible to tune differing sizes of wire into a presentable unison but what is most likely to happen is that the larger diameter wire is hit first by the hammer makIng the unison out of phase.

What your " musician" is hearing is the poor tone quality that results from out of phase strings. The best repair is to replace the string with the correct size but this may not be an option for you. You can massage a slight backward curve in the string by pressing along it with a piece of wood or other soft material (brass) so that the hammer hits all three strings as close to the same moment as possible . Doing this rarely solves the problem completely and there are other things you can do but it is best for us not to advise doing anything else in case somebody wants to repair it properly at a later date. Adjusting it further involves loss of felt and you could easily make the problem worse only to lose more felt when the correct string is fitted. ( you could also massage a reverse(outward) curve in the thinner strings with a stringing hook. Yo u can make one from a steel crochet hook bent to take a handle. Better than some of the clumsy affairs currently being sold.

Do not rely on the opinion of 'musicians' at this point. The one you mentioned could only make judgemental faces and could not help you. What use Is that? With all due respect to them, Some 'musicians' might just guide you astray right now.

Well spotted on the different diameters.

You will sometimes find false strings in that area. You can make even those sound still in a unison if you are really good.

Do your best.

R
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/01/13 11:25 PM

Originally Posted By: rxd
( you could also massage a reverse(outward) curve in the thinner strings with a stringing hook. Yo u can make one from a steel crochet hook bent to form a handle.

Dear rxd, thanks for your response about the regime works in choirs of strings different diameters. But I do not understand the mechanism of "the crochet hook". How to do this? If you are not hard, maybe there is a photos?
Regards,Max
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/02/13 12:38 AM

Max.
Google 'crochet hook'. The Wikipedia entry in English has
some pictures.

Any sewing shop or hobby shop has them in different sizes.
Most are plastic some are metal. Choose the strongest and a medium size that looks like it would work.

Be careful not to kink or bend the string, just massage a curve into it.

It is non invasive and reversible.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/02/13 08:51 AM

Excellent tip RXD, very good spring hooks ?

I use a thick wire (21 ?) installed on a long dowel, make a fulcrum on the capo or on the felt in front of the pins, it is easy to use but care must be taken not to install a kink.

I like massaging, but older wire does not move easily
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/02/13 10:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Excellent tip RXD, very good spring hooks ?

I use a thick wire (21 ?) installed on a long dowel, make a fulcrum on the capo or on the felt in front of the pins, it is easy to use but care must be taken not to install a kink.

I like massaging, but older wire does not move easily



Upright damper springs, perhaps. For grand butterfly springs I would want to grind off the tip and file a groove in it for pushing the spring out. The American tool with the tiny grooved disc at the end and the last couple of cm. bent at a slight angle is excellent for grand repetition springs. It was originally privately made and marketed but now most supply houses carry it.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/03/13 12:55 AM

Dear rxd,I use a thick crochet hook, but in order to remove rust from the strings. I release a pin half a turn, and treated with a place in the capo (bar plate). I have not understand out how to reduce the diameter when we are just massage a curve into it hook on the back side of string?

I'm intensively and seriously working to make a temperament. I use the lever and a mute. While the results are negative unfortunately
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/03/13 02:25 AM

Yes. Use the hook on the back side of the string. A gentle massage from the damper upwards while the string is at tension.
This does not reduce the diameter of the string but simply raises the level of the string so that the hammer hits all three strings at the same time. The diameter remains the same.

By lowering the tension of the string, you have reduced the stability of that string a lot. It will take some time and tunings to regain that stability so don't expect too much from that note right now. The presence of rust and replacement string in that area of the piano would tell me to be careful. The best cure, as I said, is to replace the wire.

You will need strings and parts to be a successful tuner. With today's communications, surely you could contact the technicians at a music school and ask them where they get their parts. Don't start arguing with them or trying to teach them as you do with us or they will simply ignore you and they won't want to help you. They have to get parts somehow. Are there Internet sites you can use? Google your words for " piano wire". See what you come up with.

I got the idea of the crochet hook from a student while unsuccessfully looking for a halfway decent stringing hook at the supply houses. She worked as a Saturday girl at a hobby store and saw potential piano tools everywhere. One of the handiest combination heavy duty wirecutters and parallel pliers i ever had came from a hobby store.

I realise that it is difficult to translate the books you were sent because each word has to be entered into the computer unless you have a special scanner.

There are articles already on the Internet that are translator ready. They will be of good use to you.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/03/13 02:47 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Use the hook on the back side of the string. A gentle massage from the damper upwards while the string is at tension.
This does not reduce the diameter of the string but simply raises the level of the string so that the hammer hits all three strings at the same time. The diameter remains the same.

By lowering the tension of the string, you have reduced the stability of that string a lot. It will take some time and tunings to regain that stability so don't expect too much from that note right now. The presence of rust and replacement string in that area of the piano would tell me to be careful. The best cure, as I said, is to replace the wire.

I see,rxd
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/03/13 06:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Dear rxd,I use a thick crochet hook, but in order to remove rust from the strings. I release a pin half a turn, and treated with a place in the capo (bar plate). I have not understand out how to reduce the diameter when we are just massage a curve into it hook on the back side of string?

I'm intensively and seriously working to make a temperament. I use the lever and a mute. While the results are negative unfortunately


Can you make a video when you tune an unison ? for the temperament you have to be sure your string will not move first

Posted by: pppat

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/03/13 02:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)


Your welcome, Mark! Sorry, I missed this post earlier.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/03/13 10:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Dear rxd,I use a thick crochet hook, but in order to remove rust from the strings. I release a pin half a turn, and treated with a place in the capo (bar plate). I have not understand out how to reduce the diameter when we are just massage a curve into it hook on the back side of string?

I'm intensively and seriously working to make a temperament. I use the lever and a mute. While the results are negative unfortunately


Can you make a video when you tune an unison ?

I can't make "tune an unison video" now because I have not own camera,sorry
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/03/13 11:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
As I understand things T hammers were more suited to tuning early pianos. Modern instruments have planks that are very much firmer generally.

Why? Have that pianos weak pinblocks?
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 04:50 AM

Good question, Max.

Habit, really. The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn.

As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient. It's use was taught into the 1960's and first year students of tuning at one school had to use it exclusively for the first year. Most likely on the older pianos. Students taught in factories and rebuilding shops were trained with the lever to the best of my knowledge.

I have just quickly checked 45 very heavily played pianos here that have been tuned with a T- hammer on their last tuning. I had no tuning to do. For me, the speed is marginally faster than anything else I use.

I did this so that I could talk with some authority about my experience.

There is an awful lot of stuff on this forum that really should be prefaced with the words "I would think" or "I imagine".

I am a 6'1 medium build person and perhaps a little stronger than most but by absolutely no means the bodybuilder type. I find that turning a T hammer clockwise takes no more thumb pressure (RH) than it takes on a lever in order to turn a springy pin without springing it. The reverse is usually just to set the pin so doesn't take much.

I use pure pin setting and let the students do my test blows so I don't beat them in. I feel the string instead.

The last time I wrote on this tool, I mentioned that I couldn't make pure turning motions with it. After 10 days of two hours with it every morning, I find that I can turn a pin in smaller and smaller increments without springing it. (eliminating the "marshmallow zone").
I don't really know what I'm doing different. More thumb pressure, perhaps?

Note to Max.

The way you use your T-bar hammer frightens me. The tool you have lends itself to abuse too easily and there are too many bad habits to eradicate. Please stay with the lever for me. I know it is like starting all over again and that is the best thing, right here, right now.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 05:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Dear rxd,I use a thick crochet hook, but in order to remove rust from the strings. I release a pin half a turn, and treated with a place in the capo (bar plate). I have not understand out how to reduce the diameter when we are just massage a curve into it hook on the back side of string?

I'm intensively and seriously working to make a temperament. I use the lever and a mute. While the results are negative unfortunately


Can you make a video when you tune an unison ?

I can't make "tune an unison video" now because I have not own camera,sorry


MAx, please do so when it will be possible, so you can have more useful comments.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 05:55 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Good question, Max.


I have just quickly checked 45 very heavily played pianos here that have been tuned with a T- hammer on their last tuning. I had no tuning to do. For me, the speed is marginally faster than anything else I use.

I did this so that I could talk with some authority about my experience.

There is an awful lot of stuff on this forum that really should be prefaced with the words "I would think" or "I imagine".

I am a 6'1 medium build person and perhaps a little stronger than most but by absolutely no means the bodybuilder type. I find that turning a T hammer clockwise takes no more thumb pressure (RH) than it takes on a lever in order to turn a springy pin without springing it. The reverse is usually just to set the pin so doesn't take much.

I use pure pin setting and let the students do my test blows so I don't beat them in. I feel the string instead.

The last time I wrote on this tool, I mentioned that I couldn't make pure turning motions with it. After 10 days of two hours with it every morning, I find that I can turn a pin in smaller and smaller increments without springing it. (eliminating the "marshmallow zone").
I don't really know what I'm doing different. More thumb pressure, perhaps?



RXD, may be you should state how many verticals and how many grands, on a grand I feel the T hammer is more easy.

The T hammer is perfect to evaluate how much spring is in the pin itself (in its vertical plane).

Are you stating there is none , or something else ? (the marshmallow zone contains part of that, part of wood springness, and certainly part of flagpole in the non interesting direction)

If you leave tuning blows for the student, you are tuning exactly as I did before learning that other way , exactly wink

I will try to compare sensations with both levers with a similar final pin setting.

Are you stating that the pin itself cannot be left springy ?


I tend to believe that the thumb used to counteract the flagpolling, may not be very efficient. why ? I dont imagine myself pulling a heavy weight with my thumb pressure.

I have used my thumb on the lever to lower flagpolling for years and still do naturally sometime, but since I have learned to fell the pin in the prolongation of the wire (the sensation of slow pull is that, not opposite to usual method, but the stiffening of the pin is similar to the one of the wire, and in the end the whole system is manipulated as if it was one part, that are the sensations, not the physics, but if you are slow enough when raising and adding stress, you have a feel of total control on the whole system.
Very agreable and allow perfect control to the tiniest motions.

The drawback is that the metal of the pin itself seem to ask for some time to settle later, (I said "seem to")

You get to the same firmness with the back and forth motions on the lever until nothing moves.

With the T hammer you may be experimenting the slow pull sensations, in the end ...




PS I have to make another video for unison. but the lever manipulation is standard, I suppose.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 06:22 AM

In the end when I say the pin is under some torque a little more low than usually, that mean the stress coming from the wire to the tuning pin is braked on a larger zone in the hole.

That mean using the springness of the pinblock and the one from the tuning pin together. the impact forces (shock waves )coming from the string, are then adbsorbed by the friction between the pin and the block more efficiently , on a larger portion of the pin.

It is felt in the pin, the top of the pin is more rigid than with the usual pin setting .

It is heard in the tone (that is proof if any necessary) as the tone is stronger on the fundamental.

Possibly the pin is allowed less back and forth motion, hence a little less Lmode allowed or normal partials, but as I hear a clearing of the high end of the spectra it may well be the Lmodes that are lowered.

There a recording and spectra analysis may show that more accurately (but it is flagrant that a firm pin setting have avery different tone than a minimal one, also, many tuners may have noticed that)

Sorry Max for the OT, but pin setting play a huge role in tone, then in justness, not only on the fact that the note stay clean.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 07:36 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd

Note to Max.

The way you use your T-bar hammer frightens me. The tool you have lends itself to abuse too easily and there are too many bad habits to eradicate. Please stay with the lever for me. I know it is like starting all over again and that is the best thing, right here, right now.

Dear rxd,I never use my home-made T-hammers here. No need it's do but sometime only just original T. When a pin don't turn or very weak
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 08:02 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn.
As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient.


my question.
Modern standart diameter strings changed, it became thicker. If so, the old piano with thicker strings had a different voice (tembr).It's a more noble and subdued. Thin strings are more prone fast to loose of tone. Is this so?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
are then adbsorbed by the friction between the pin and the block more efficiently , on a larger portion of the pin.

Isaac,are you wrote here "d" ? absorbed
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 08:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

Note to Max.

The way you use your T-bar hammer frightens me. The tool you have lends itself to abuse too easily and there are too many bad habits to eradicate. Please stay with the lever for me. I know it is like starting all over again and that is the best thing, right here, right now.

Dear rxd,I never use my home-made T-hammers here. No need it's do but sometime only just original T. When a pin don't turn or very weak


I believe the normal L lever is better for that case also, better control on pin
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 08:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
are then adbsorbed by the friction between the pin and the block more efficiently , on a larger portion of the pin.

Isaac,are you wrote here "d" ? absorbed


Probably , my spell checker say adsorbed indeed , sorry.

In French "absorber" , with "b" in English absorbed (?)
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 08:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn.
As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient.


my question.
Modern standart diameter strings changed, it became thicker. If so, the old piano with thicker strings had a different voice (tembr).It's a more noble and subdued. Thin strings are more prone fast to loose of tone. Is this so?


When replacing with modern wire yes often less thick is used, but not always.
The steel quality was very different, often with phosphorous traces, it gives a very different tone.

Now the steel is clean, but obtained with recycling, while I dont see how it makes a difference in the end.

The carbon in the steel also migrates with time in the wire, (from where to where ?)

so what we hear of old wire today is very different that what it was.

Did you notice that in Eastern countries, some steel wire is having little rust ? or the pianos you see have much rust ?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 08:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

Note to Max.

The way you use your T-bar hammer frightens me. The tool you have lends itself to abuse too easily and there are too many bad habits to eradicate. Please stay with the lever for me. I know it is like starting all over again and that is the best thing, right here, right now.

Dear rxd,I never use my home-made T-hammers here. No need it's do but sometime only just original T. When a pin don't turn or very weak


I believe the normal L lever is better for that case also, better control on pin

Isaac,you're lucky that you have never tried tuning soviet pianos end of the fifties
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 08:41 AM

I say you so because it is easier to brake the pin with a L lever and have some precision.

When you will be at ease with the L lever you will understand why.

I have tuned Holstein, Legnicas, Tcheikas, and other strange pianos with poor gluing (I have seen one Holstein with all soundboard ribs unglued)

The job is the same whatever the piano is, but of course design and construction make it easy for the tuner.


Yes sometime you feel the pin is stuck in a piece of soap, that is when I go back on reverse again and again until I feel the pin begin to grip a little (if it can)

Bending the pin as you where doing 2 years ago cannot help, it even ovalise the pinblock a little more.

But we force on the block (on the top, less important part of the hole) to gain some springness when there is none. Sometime it helps.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 08:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
[quote=rxd] The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn.
As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient.


my question.
Modern standart diameter strings changed, it became thicker. If so, the old piano with thicker strings had a different voice (tembr).It's a more noble and subdued. Thin strings are more prone fast to loose of tone. Is this so?

or the pianos you see have much rust ?
I'm afraid "rust string of piano". It's damage should be cleans with aceton
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 09:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek

I have tuned Holstein, Legnicas, Tcheikas, and other strange pianos with poor gluing (I have seen one Holstein with all soundboard ribs unglued)

I never have not tuned Holstein. But Legnica, Tcheikas it's very good vertical. Poland Legnica have very nice sound. A pins very hard set in pinblock and I'm use L-hammer for tuning
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 09:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
[quote=rxd] The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn.
As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient.


my question.
Modern standart diameter strings changed, it became thicker. If so, the old piano with thicker strings had a different voice (tembr).It's a more noble and subdued. Thin strings are more prone fast to loose of tone. Is this so?

or the pianos you see have much rust ?
I'm afraid "rust string of piano". It's damage should be cleans with aceton


If aceton can clean it, it is very little rust, you could use benzine to clean strings (fluid for lighters) .
Rust is strong corrosion.

ABout the pins in soap like pin block, think that if you turn anti clockwise (only a little) then clockwise but VERY slowly , inside the hole some layers of the wood have the fiber that change orientation.

I noticed that doing that move again and again, at some point you begin to have a little grip showing.

Then you can tune

(this is because it is just a braking, as with cars, 2 surfaces and friction between them) the larger the surface the better the friction, if we can obtain that the pin get springy INSIDE the hole, we can set pins even on difficult pianos
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 09:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
[quote=rxd] The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn.
As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient.


my question.
Modern standart diameter strings changed, it became thicker. If so, the old piano with thicker strings had a different voice (tembr).It's a more noble and subdued. Thin strings are more prone fast to loose of tone. Is this so?

or the pianos you see have much rust ?
I'm afraid "rust string of piano". It's damage should be cleans with aceton


If aceton can clean it, it is very little rust, you could use benzine to clean strings (fluid for lighters) .
Rust is strong corrosion.

The main thing that the string that has the rust has not passed into the zone of plastic deformation
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 09:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
[quote=rxd] The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn.
As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient.


my question.
Modern standart diameter strings changed, it became thicker. If so, the old piano with thicker strings had a different voice (tembr).It's a more noble and subdued. Thin strings are more prone fast to loose of tone. Is this so?

or the pianos you see have much rust ?
I'm afraid "rust string of piano". It's damage should be cleans with aceton


If aceton can clean it, it is very little rust, you could use benzine to clean strings (fluid for lighters) .
Rust is strong corrosion.

The main thing that the string that has the rust has not passed into the zone of plastic deformation


Yes, usually you will have enough margin before that, only in the treble the wire is nearer that zone.

But with the aging of the metal in time probably it loose its elasticity enough to get there, indeed
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 09:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
[quote=rxd] The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn.
As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient.


my question.
Modern standart diameter strings changed, it became thicker. If so, the old piano with thicker strings had a different voice (tembr).It's a more noble and subdued. Thin strings are more prone fast to loose of tone. Is this so?

or the pianos you see have much rust ?
I'm afraid "rust string of piano". It's damage should be cleans with aceton

ABout the pins in soap like pin block, think that if you turn anti clockwise (only a little) then clockwise but VERY slowly , inside the hole some layers of the wood have the fiber that change orientation.


I do so. I pull out the tip of the string out of the hole pin. After with slight pressure on the pin doing 2-3 turns clockwise use T-bar. (Or unscrew pin on 2-3 turns) A pin in pinblock to introduce a few engages the part of the wood is not worked out a pinblocka and a bush. I'm to install the tip string and to make the tone. Sometimes it helps
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 10:44 AM

Max, my experience :

Never unscrew the tuning pins (never turn it counter clockwise)

I was talking of turning the pin may be 5 degrees maximum just to move very little the wood fiber then back to move it in the good direction.

IF you want may be you can screw it a little (3 turns=) but you have to do that so slowly it is not really possible when you are tuning in a customer home.

Tuners that turn the tuning pin 2.5 turn back when changing a broken string always leave a less firm tuning pin at that place


COntrarely to the common belief that the more you manipulate a pin the less it is firm, under certain circumstances and with the good method it can be benefit
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 10:51 AM

Visibly it is of no interest for nobody , untill I see a Youtube video or someone showing that in another forum, as it happened with other tricks ... LOL
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 12:25 PM

MAX, the more you turn the pin counter clock wise, the more you "sand" the hole in the worst direction. possibly on the video you could do the same, take out the string then screw the pin, but experience showed me (and others) that it is more efficient to tap on the pin with a hammer without taking the wire out.

A tool to avoid the fast untwisting of the pin when it is tapped is better than tapping it only. I have such a tool with a "plunge" - may be one of your tuning hammers could to that too (I will send a picture)

then insert the pin may be 1 or 2 mm, you will have enough fresh wood o make the tuning pin firm (usually for some time, but with a better pin setting technique it can be a very long time)

Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 12:46 PM

Thanks for the video, Isaac, it looks much the same as I did including using a slightly longer lever and changing grip according to the feel of the pin and string. Our Asian colleagues have taught us what else is possible.

I only tune uprights about once every 6 months now, including one today, as it happens. I didn't have my long lever with me but, because there was a bookshelf at the treble end, I did try my left hand, Johnkie. I was hopelessly inept being years since I last did that with any regularity.

Yes I use thumb pressure to stop the springy pin springing and it turns while retaining the set. I think you and I talked about this before.

I agree. I don't like setting pins further into the block but if it must be done, 1-2mm is enough if it hasn't been done before. I find pins close to the plate take more time and a different technique.

I'll return to this thread when these strange things being done to the stringing are done with.


Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/04/13 01:33 PM

Ah RXD , "Noblesse oblige ;)"

I dont hesitate to tune verticals, but not doing my day on that job... the ones I have sold, or people I know , etc..

Here is that useful tool Max,

the opening is square, and the part where you tap with hammer is moving inside.

With that tool the tuning pin does not make 1/4 turn back when you hammer it.




AS said Rxd OK if there is enough space under the coils, and no more than 1-2 mm

the wire is not pulling on the tuning pin in the same direction when the pins are more deep. if the angle is too strong they will be more difficult to set . on some piano it is better not to tap the pins for that reason.

(basically the wire is providing its so useful tension more on the middle of the pin when the coils are lower, so the pin brake even more on its upper part than usually

Back to my keys !!
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/05/13 07:01 AM

The upright I tuned yesterday, I first met some 7 years ago. I was tuning their new Boston grand and was asked to take a look at it.

It was not tuneable because of very loose tuning pins. Being a family instrument, it was put in a small room upstairs until it could be repaired. Nothing was done to it for a year or so.

I was asked to take another look at it and I found it tuneable so I tuned it. That was 5-6 years ago. The piano was used as a practice piano. I tuned it again yesterday and the piano was on pitch and perfectly tuneable like any other piano. It would have been hard to believe had I not seen some old American uprights that had spent the 50's and 60's in fierce central heating and became untuneable but when the energy crunch and brown outs came in the mid to late '70's, many of them became tuneable and gradually returned to normal because the central heating had been turned down.

So, Max, it could be worth moving the piano to another room that may be a better atmosphere for the piano.

Pianos are the most surprising things.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/05/13 09:39 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd

So, Max, it could be worth moving the piano to another room that may be a better atmosphere for the piano.

Pianos are the most surprising things.

rxd,I agree that climate for the piano is basic. However, where Max lives in the winter the temperature drops to -40 degrees C. In the summer, four months in a row above +35. The piano does not live and it's survive
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/05/13 09:50 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd

I agree. I don't like setting pins further into the block but if it must be done, 1-2mm is enough if it hasn't been done before. I find pins close to the plate take more time and a different technique.

I have to clarify, Max also likes these procedures, he hates it. However, this is a forced measure, and sometimes helps in the treatment of the piano. In some cases, need to twist off the pin. Often immersed it's to 2 mm hole in the bush
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/05/13 10:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek

the wire is not pulling on the tuning pin in the same direction when the pins are more deep. if the angle is too strong they will be more difficult to set . on some piano it is better not to tap the pins for that reason.

Isaac I agree with you.on some piano it is better not to tap the pins for that reason.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/08/13 04:28 AM

I am pleased you agree with me Max !

I recorded a few unison tuning , if it can help you I will be pleased even more

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQSDZzMFJXbFlMenM/edit?usp=sharing

Now up to you

You can look at the spectra with :

http://www.nch.com.au/wavepad/index.html

you will see how the partails get quiet and stable
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/08/13 09:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek

Isaac thank you very much. I'll analise it's and 'll listen.
Find one correct "G" it lucky of guarantee good T.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/14/13 12:57 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.


Max made tuning old upright piano "Belarus" for kids. Ethno concert Kazakh music. Kids performs kazakh music. "Kobyz" it's oldest music instrument turk's people. It's kazakh little viola.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/14/13 05:14 AM

Hello Max thanks for the video, it is a music school ?

You looks as you have undertood how to listen when playing, that is a big step, seem to me.

Then , sorry but you are doing only the first half of the move with the Lever, that is why the notes move a little later.

We all tune from above, not from under. On that note I would have changer the lever orientation for a more vertical position to "set the pin" , pushing a little on the lever the other direction.

That mean you need to raise the note a little above then let the pin spring back (You feel the springiness of the pin, dont' you ?)

you feel the pin deforms a little , then move, the deformation must be the other direction for the pin to stay put.

it is difficult to explain

Greetings


P.S. I see you play other notes at a moment, this is to freshen your ears probably, I suggest that to clean your ears, you pluck with your plectra) a few high treble strings.
This is often done and is a a glass of fresh lemonade for the ears whan they get tired.
Playing the other notes helps only a little (particularely when they have moved)

Keep courage, you are on the good track
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/14/13 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
it is a music school ?

Hi,Isaac.Yes it's Kazakh music school.The specifics piano's tuning is to achieve a harmonious piano sound with folk Kipchak instruments. I hope I succeeded. Another feature of the pitch is necessary A = 440. Below impossible, because it would be difficult to play for kobyz and dombra
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/14/13 09:59 AM

Well Max , you have even a bigger responsibility with those young players, as they use the piano justness to work their ear.

In music schools, the piano is what gives the reference for justness.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/15/13 12:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
a bigger responsibility with those young players, as they use the piano justness to work their ear.

Isaac you are right. Kobyz so like playing the violin requires from a tuner particularly careful temperament of a piano. I have a very big responsibility to young violinists. They don't should have problems with sound. I shall cope
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/17/13 11:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek

you feel the pin deforms a little , then move, the deformation must be the other direction for the pin to stay put.

it is difficult to explain

Isaac,but I'm think so began understand it's process ''the pin to stay put"
Posted by: rysowers

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/17/13 02:39 PM

the video is very enjoyable Max! Thanks for giving us more insight into your culture. It is good to see you using the new tuning lever. The unison you tune in the video is sounding much better than in previous recordings. Keep it up brother!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 02/17/13 11:04 PM

Originally Posted By: rysowers
The unison you tune in the video is sounding much better than in previous recordings. Keep it up brother!

rysowers,thank for your good words! А brother will endeavor
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/04/13 09:05 AM

Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/04/13 12:44 PM


Posted by: BDB

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/04/13 12:54 PM

I recently posted a link to a show with a piano that I tuned. What did you think of the temperament of that piano? Do you think it was better than yours?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/04/13 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By: BDB
I recently posted a link to a show with a piano that I tuned. What did you think of the temperament of that piano? Do you think it was better than yours?

BDB, are where your link ? I shall see it move and I shall give my verdict
Posted by: BDB

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/05/13 02:23 AM

I bumped it up for you.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/22/13 01:30 AM

Originally Posted By: BDB
Do you think it was better than yours?

http://youtu.be/7yE_aCpo6mk
Mary Sidorovich plays piano "Blutner". Max tuning it's grand in Jan.2013. What do you think about?
Posted by: BDB

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/22/13 02:11 AM

It seems that it started better than some of your previous tunings, but it sounded like things were going out of tune by the end of the piece. It is harder to evaluate a tuning from a fast piece like that than from something slower.

If it is going out of tune, you need to work on the technique of setting the pins. It should not go out of tune merely from playing.

Did you listen to my tuning? That was recorded over a much longer period, with the piano under hot television lighting.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/22/13 02:25 AM

Originally Posted By: BDB
Did you listen to my tuning? That was recorded over a much longer period, with the piano under hot television lighting.

Please, give references your tuning. I shall talk my verdict
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/22/13 02:27 AM

Originally Posted By: BDB
it started better than some of your previous tunings

BDB, thanks for this words. I shall try do more better
Posted by: BDB

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/22/13 02:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: BDB
Did you listen to my tuning? That was recorded over a much longer period, with the piano under hot television lighting.

Please, give references your tuning. I shall talk my verdict


Sample
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/22/13 03:47 AM

Originally Posted By: BDB
I recently posted a link to a show with a piano that I tuned.

BDB,thank much for this video. I'm received aesthetic pleasure of a jazz concert. Sounds of grand like fine harmony with the voice of the singers and the musicians in the ensemble. Your tuning in my opinion is perfect! We must study your temperament. Maximillyan delighted, bravo
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/22/13 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By: BDB
It should not go out of tune merely from playing.

Be mistaken, to seek the truth in any pitch and move on
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/21/13 08:01 AM

Children's ensemble of violinists
http://youtu.be/5altQpwL_Ig
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/06/13 01:08 PM

Max was tuned grand piano at a music school. Max interested whether there are change his job for the better?
http://youtu.be/cIollNuEnmY
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/06/13 02:40 PM

Very much improved. Well done.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/06/13 11:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Very much improved. Well done.

Hi,Chris Leslie.
Thank you VERY much for that five words.I shall try go up to a better outcome own tuning
Regards,Max
Posted by: bkw58

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/08/13 02:18 PM

Showing improvement. Keep up the good progress, Max.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/08/13 02:42 PM

You raised a step Max, sound better and definitively more robust.

Keep the good work.

BTW are the high treble hammer covered with leather ?
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/08/13 11:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Olek
You raised a step Max, sound better and definitively more robust.

Keep the good work.

BTW are the high treble hammer covered with leather ?

Thanks, Isaac.
I shall try to grow taller.
Upper hammers not covered with leather but I do not like it's shrill sound too. I laid a strip of cloth(cotton) = 2mm in unwork(without sound) string sector, but it has not changed the sound of the high notes. I unfortunately was not able to remove the grooves on a hammers using sandpaper yet. I plan to do it.
Thank you, for watching and your praise for me. I know that it is far from perfect but I will continue on
Regards,Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/08/13 11:08 PM

Originally Posted By: bkw58
Showing improvement. Keep up the good progress, Max.

Hi,Bob.
Thank you for your attention and your support to Max's acts
Regards,Max
Posted by: Bosendorff

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/09/13 12:52 AM

Hello Max,

I know this is off-topic, but I wanted to share with you, in this thread of yours, this movie I just found some minutes ago.

I think it's great and it happened not so far from you. I hope you enjoy just as much as I did. Privet and take care !

Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/09/13 02:55 AM

Cool video, it is wonderful to find an old person obliged to be helped, it compensates for all the bad you are doing elsewhere .

An animal not bad either, but owe you less points.

The Baby, bingo, a full hand of indulgences (I like the moment where the guy wonder if he put the baby under the wheels of the truck, or bring it to safety, then he choose the good solution, bring back that innocent soul to his usual heck and drunk parents.

The music almost made me cry.

Cool anyone can go back to their usual occupation then feeling better...

Indeed surprising that some help others.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/09/13 03:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
You raised a step Max, sound better and definitively more robust.

Keep the good work.

BTW are the high treble hammer covered with leather ?

Thanks, Isaac.
I shall try to grow taller.
Upper hammers not covered with leather but I do not like it's shrill sound too. I laid a strip of cloth(cotton) = 2mm in unwork(without sound) string sector, but it has not changed the sound of the high notes. I unfortunately was not able to remove the grooves on a hammers using sandpaper yet. I plan to do it.
Thank you, for watching and your praise for me. I know that it is far from perfect but I will continue on
Regards,Max


Yes Max the strip cut in the partials and tone openness, but leave the hard attack.
You can shape the treble with rough paper 80 to get a better shape it should help. I would use the glass file to finish. The hammers are may be heavily lacquered and need some needing.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/09/13 10:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Bosendorff
Hello Max,

I know this is off-topic, but I wanted to share with you, in this thread of yours, this movie I just found some minutes ago.

I think it's great and it happened not so far from you. I hope you enjoy just as much as I did. Privet and take care !


Zdravstvuyte,Bosendorff
It's our theme. Yes, it's Russia. But these things must take place every minute worldwide. A good deed knows no boundaries and nationality.
" Let's create good in a secret"
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/09/13 11:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
You raised a step Max, sound better and definitively more robust.

Keep the good work.

BTW are the high treble hammer covered with leather ?

Thanks, Isaac.
I shall try to grow taller.
Upper hammers not covered with leather but I do not like it's shrill sound too. I laid a strip of cloth(cotton) = 2mm in unwork(without sound) string sector, but it has not changed the sound of the high notes. I unfortunately was not able to remove the grooves on a hammers using sandpaper yet. I plan to do it.
Thank you, for watching and your praise for me. I know that it is far from perfect but I will continue on
Regards,Max


Yes Max the strip cut in the partials and tone openness, but leave the hard attack.
You can shape the treble with rough paper 80 to get a better shape it should help. I would use the glass file to finish. The hammers are may be heavily lacquered and need some needing.

Thanks, Isaac. I also thought to do it. I have not worked with the action this Grand. I guess all hammers must be sanded because grooves here. Thank your for advice
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/10/13 05:56 AM

Sounds as Bach to "digit" or the upright piano is not the essence of this movie. One performer, different musical instruments, classical music. Tastes differ. The idea of the film to convey for a simple layman and professional musicians that music great genius survived the centuries. Bach is very much "alive", even if it is a digital piano "Yamaha"
I believe that it successfully managed Nastya. Nastya is very young girl pianist (Uralsk) is the holder of a silver medal awarded to her at Young Republican competition piano Kazakhstan. The contest was held in end March 2013 Pavlodar city
Upright piano "Rosler" on which plays Nastya most of "his life" was in a state of neglect. In the room where it was stored was damp, no heating more than 3 years. Max did everything I could. But can we talk about the quality of the temperament of this acustic piano?
http://youtu.be/y5B8xS_KtkA
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/10/13 10:26 AM

Vast improvement, Max. Quite heart warming.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/10/13 11:54 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Vast improvement, Max. Quite heart warming.

Dear,rxd. If you knew how I waited hear this words. But I knew that "legs feed the wolf," so every day I had trained at tuning. It was difficult. Was afraid that I don't have progress. But I could not quit doing it. I knew to I have no moral right loose yours trust. Because you many made for me.
2013 year went to the Max nor empty, because there are rxd's message .
rxd,thank you to believing in me.
Regards, yours Max
http://youtu.be/SYQ0gns5sxo
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/13/13 12:10 AM

Originally Posted By: bkw58
Showing improvement. Keep up the good progress, Max.

Thanks,Bob
I shall try
Regards,yours Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/23/13 07:56 AM

Upright piano "RIGA" (1970- 75) Max's tuning, is it tuning better?
This piano never tuning and no regulation an action. Many hammers had not very ride. A head's hammer had groove in a felt. Max did all and again did a tuning. Good pleasure in time a looking a clip
http://youtu.be/IZUlnA6j8TQ
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/23/13 09:00 AM

Two steps forward, three steps back.

Don't worry, this happens in the learning process, it helps to be aware, though.

Concentrate on unisons and lever technique.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/23/13 09:25 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Two steps forward, three steps back.

Don't worry, this happens in the learning process, it helps to be aware, though.

Concentrate on unisons and lever technique.

Dear, rxd. Here I had to work more with T-bar because it is very tight pins. It was the hardest, "RIGA" in my life lately.It's stood without service for more than forty years.
For me anyway is a great honor for your appreciation of my tunings "about steps" (3-2) = 1!
No a despair. Max goes uphill again, because do not have rights lose confidence his London's curator.
Please see with 18 minutes this film.
http://youtu.be/e4mvEj4ldpo
Posted by: bkw58

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/23/13 10:12 AM


Good morning, Max.

Thank you for the video.

A couple of weeks ago you posted two recital performances: one (I think) on a Blthner that you tuned, and another on (I think) a Yamaha that someone else tuned. You asked us to compare the two tunings. I cannot find where you posted these, but it seems like you wrote in the post that the Yamaha, to your ear, sounded either dead or lifeless when compared to the Blthner.

Although the Yamaha recording was not the best quality, it was clear that its unisons were mostly clean whereas the Blthner unisons were not.

So, I am wondering: Are you intentionally tuning one string in each of the unisons slightly flat or sharp of the other(s) to produce a "wave" or "beat" in order to make the unison sound more "lively"?

Many years ago, certain piano technicians wrote articles promoting this as a technique. Not that you have necessarily read these, but I am curious if you are trying to tune the unisons a little "unclean" to give these a little more "life"?

Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/23/13 11:04 AM

Originally Posted By: bkw58

Good morning, Max.

Thank you for the video.

A couple of weeks ago you posted two recital performances: one (I think) on a Blthner that you tuned, and another on (I think) a Yamaha that someone else tuned. You asked us to compare the two tunings. I cannot find where you posted these, but it seems like you wrote in the post that the Yamaha, to your ear, sounded either dead or lifeless when compared to the Blthner.

Although the Yamaha recording was not the best quality, it was clear that its unisons were mostly clean whereas the Blthner unisons were not.

So, I am wondering: Are you intentionally tuning one string in each of the unisons slightly flat or sharp of the other(s) to produce a "wave" or "beat" in order to make the unison sound more "lively"?

Many years ago, certain piano technicians wrote articles promoting this as a technique. Not that you have necessarily read these, but I am curious if you are trying to tune the unisons a little "unclean" to give these a little more "life"?


Thank you for your message ,Bob.
I am pleased that seen my movie. Everything you wrote is clearly true. I tuning only Bluthner with "live" as you wrote unison. Yamaha in town Pavlodar made metropolitan tuner tuned " which I wrote to the ear, sounded dead or lifeless compared to Bluthner".
I was not trying to do good correct unisons without "wave" or "beat" , but it turned in the final work it's. One of the strings I really do little sharp (upper) , but not enough. The grand piano played a lot before the contest kids and it's a little loose it's tone. I now always will strive to clean unison and made it's ideal .
But I know that if the strings have the spirit of the accordion - it is livelier than pure medieval clavichord .( joke)
Regards, Max
Posted by: bkw58

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/23/13 11:37 AM

Thanks, Max.

I follow you (I think.)

The techs who advocated the technique actually aimed for just a little "wave" in the unison, again, to give it more "life." I suspect that most techs never bought into this. A unison that is not clean is really no unison at all: uni meaning one; unison signifying of one sound.

Echoing rxd's advice: Honing good hammer technique and creating clean, stable unisons isn't easy, but in the end, it makes the difference between a mediocre tuner and great one. Both skills are an integral part of the art of what we do.

Best wishes for the new year, Max.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/23/13 12:46 PM

Originally Posted By: bkw58
Thanks, Max.

I follow you (I think.)

The techs who advocated the technique actually aimed for just a little "wave" in the unison, again, to give it more "life." I suspect that most techs never bought into this. A unison that is not clean is really no unison at all: uni meaning one; unison signifying of one sound.

Echoing rxd's advice: Honing good hammer technique and creating clean, stable unisons isn't easy, but in the end, it makes the difference between a mediocre tuner and great one. Both skills are an integral part of the art of what we do.

Best wishes for the new year, Max.


Bob is a great honor for I'm. If you follow me.
Although the "unison" is Latin for "one", but there is no two like of water droplets in a nature . Therefore, small mutations unison I shall still admit. But this should not be a law. And make it's every days for any pianos always
Bob and rxd is my main teachers. I have to listen to their advice and follow it's if I'm think they are right.
To will all good, Bob in the New Year!
Best wishes too
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/24/13 02:42 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd


Concentrate on unisons and lever technique.

I'm think it's most important for Max today
Regards,
Posted by: Gary Fowler

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/24/13 11:08 PM

It is impossible to critique your temperment. Put together a video of you actually setting the temperment.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/25/13 01:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
It is impossible to critique your temperment. Put together a video of you actually setting the temperment.

Sorry but I have this video only
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 12/25/13 08:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
Put together a video of you actually setting the temperment.

Is there no temperment also?
http://youtu.be/ahAu-4ZSnwc
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/08/14 10:29 AM

Dear technicians, do your strictly verdict for Max's temperament, please
http://youtu.be/y5txSA4hT1Y
Posted by: bkw58

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/08/14 12:02 PM

This shows the greatest improvement thus far, Max. Looks like you took rxd's advice and have been working toward cleaner unisons. I detect a few beating unisons -mostly in the high treble. Keep working on these. Great progress, Max.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/08/14 12:29 PM

Originally Posted By: bkw58
This shows the greatest improvement thus far, Max. Looks like you took rxd's advice and have been working toward cleaner unisons. I detect a few beating unisons -mostly in the high treble. Keep working on these. Great progress, Max.

Thank,Bob. I am very happy that I have a motion
Regards, Max
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/08/14 10:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Dear technicians, do your strictly verdict for Max's temperament, please
http://youtu.be/y5txSA4hT1Y

Sounds beautiful. Did he play it transposed to A minor or did you tune at A=415?

Kees
Posted by: Gary Fowler

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/08/14 11:34 PM

The quality of the video is exceptional. You get an A plus for that.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/09/14 02:24 AM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Dear technicians, do your strictly verdict for Max's temperament, please
http://youtu.be/y5txSA4hT1Y

Sounds beautiful. Did he play it transposed to A minor or did you tune at A=415?

Kees

Dear Kees, I'm very glad for your estimate of my creation.
Particularly thanks for yours words:"Sounds beautiful."
I have to explain a things of moments:
Firstly. Young girl playing and neither "HE"
Secondly. Yes, Max indeed deliberately understated pitch. This is not transposition. A = 415 Hz realy.
This upright piano "PETROF" a long time did not have tuning service more than 25 years of . When Max found it's was A=G. It was decided to raise one semitone.
I believe that by our poverty and the lack of service parts Max did correctly is it so?
Regards,Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/09/14 02:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
You get an A plus for that.

THANKS,Gary Fowler.
A plus = B, is it so?
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/09/14 02:34 AM

Hi Max. It is OK to tune a semitone flat if there is concern about strings breaking.
But it is better to tune to A440 if you can.
If you are worried about breaking strings, have you learnt how to repair broken strings? It may be a life saver for you.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/09/14 02:44 AM

Originally Posted By: bkw58
This shows the greatest improvement thus far, Max. Looks like you took rxd's advice and have been working toward cleaner unisons. I detect a few beating unisons -mostly in the high treble. Keep working on these. Great progress, Max.

Hi, Bob.
I really took rxd's advices . He is chief curator for me. I continue to improve in pure unison is it very hard.
You rightly pointed out that several beating unisons -mostly in the high treble. It can be heard on the video, sorry. Max shall correct
Regards, Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/09/14 03:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Hi Max. It is OK to tune a semitone flat if there is concern about strings breaking.
But it is better to tune to A440 if you can.
If you are worried about breaking strings, have you learnt how to repair broken strings? It may be a life saver for you.

Hello Australia!
Hi,Chris Leslie
Very happy for your support.
I'll try to tune in to the A=440. I shall obliged to do so.
I myself try practice recovery breaking strings. I have to do it often in last times. But my concern is strings winding if its to break during a raise of a pitch.
Regards,Max
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/09/14 03:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Hi Max. It is OK to tune a semitone flat if there is concern about strings breaking.
But it is better to tune to A440 if you can.
If you are worried about breaking strings, have you learnt how to repair broken strings? It may be a life saver for you.

Hello Australia!
Hi,Chris Leslie
Very happy for your support.
I'll try to tune in to the A=440. I shall obliged to do so.
I myself try practice recovery breaking strings. I have to do it often in last times. But my concern is strings winding if its to break during a raise of a pitch.
Regards,Max


It can easily happen during a pitch raise to A=440. That is why the skill will give you confidence to do full pitch raise and string repair at the same time if it happens.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/09/14 03:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Hi Max. It is OK to tune a semitone flat if there is concern about strings breaking.
But it is better to tune to A440 if you can.
If you are worried about breaking strings, have you learnt how to repair broken strings? It may be a life saver for you.

Hello Australia!
Hi,Chris Leslie
Very happy for your support.
I'll try to tune in to the A=440. I shall obliged to do so.
I myself try practice recovery breaking strings. I have to do it often in last times. But my concern is strings winding if its to break during a raise of a pitch.
Regards,Max


It can easily happen during a pitch raise to A=440. That is why the skill will give you confidence to do full pitch raise and string repair at the same time if it happens.

We shall ask God so it is not happened
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/10/14 03:14 AM

Originally Posted By: bkw58
I detect a few beating unisons -mostly in the high treble.

Yes. Several unison deliberately slightly overstated. When I tuned this upright piano May 2013. I found that the lower pins freely by 5-6 months. This segment keys from F5 to H5 I decided to set 1 beat loose lower pins this string . 4 keys only(F5,G5,B5,H5)
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/13/14 03:24 AM

One Max's client very strongly asked him choose the piano. In the frames of the film it's can be seen in the background of another piano "Belarus" the unfortunate part of 1972 year. The fact that so many piano of this party piano "refuse to keep a pitch". Therefore, I was a big responsibility not to make a mistake and find a decent piano.That "Belarus" is being demonstrated in the video we initially looked at it and came to the conclusion that we need to buy it.
It should be noted that the former owners this piano and no one ever tuning. We found preserved only some of the notes in the choruses which was in a factory (A = 435Hz ) . It was decided to hold the original tuning using the T- bar and a plectrum. But subsequently Max was clean tuning use tuning hammer .What came out of it judge for yourself.
I would strongly advise if there is no special need do not rush and do not immediately (A = 440 ) as it is likely fragility this pitch down after such a temperament . Need to consider the fact that more than 30 years the piano has been a common power load and a pins and can be subjected to excessive pressure on a hole of a pinblock.
Need note that upright piano Max tuned it's (9-12 ) when the handle is on the left only and move up . Why so ? The fact that this practice makes a pin during tuning only rotate along a predetermined path attached by hand of man . A pin does not bend as it comes with the usual practice, when the handle tuning hammer located to the right . And as a consequence more durable , and most importantly , stable of a pitch, I'm think . Although it is inconvenient to work.
To recieve your pleasure it's see
Regards,Max
http://youtu.be/ahAu-4ZSnwc
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/14/14 07:50 AM

Today I received this video. Lady plays music on grand piano "Bluthner". You could hear it in the sound of the video, which I did a year ago. Year passed as I tuned it's. Many technicians then commented this temperament. I was not invited to tuning this year. I'm think school officials considered the piano tuned. But I hear bad unisons in the middle register. Very bad sound treble. What do you think about this temperament?
Is that bad?

It was a year ago:
http://youtu.be/_5AfeXFmuHs

http://youtu.be/xd1vU_WrbEY

http://youtu.be/cIollNuEnmY

Now:
http://youtu.be/MQk-N8qbBV0
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/29/14 11:40 AM

Max made first test temperament for two pianos "PETROF".
Max is waiting for strong criticism from technicians
http://youtu.be/Kf1wlEnUntQ
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 01/31/14 12:44 PM

Upright piano "PETROF" 1968. Haydn Sonata in E Major. Before and after Max's temperament
http://youtu.be/URC_NyWGND8
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/01/14 01:19 PM

Max once again invited to tuning a Chinese grand piano "Yamaha". Because was need a video for the preliminary stage of the competition one lady. Dear technicians, Max waits yours verdict about temperament it's grand piano, please.
Regards, Max
http://youtu.be/NyLFaOZbmdE
http://youtu.be/1WtxDAeZuGM
http://youtu.be/9uRD9oYM4IQ
http://youtu.be/lbIidg8wJmc
Posted by: bkw58

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/02/14 11:27 AM

Hi Max.

In the final analysis it really doesn't matter what I think. What do you think? And of paramount importance: What does Ms Sidorovich think?

Here, again, is the Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody No. 10. How would you compare the tunings? The first is yours. The second is by a tuner unknown.


Max's tuning.




Tuner unknown.
Posted by: BDB

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/02/14 11:40 AM

I think Maximillyan is fishing for compliments. My advice remains the same: If you think your tunings are good, chances are that you have no talent for tuning.
Posted by: Inlanding

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/02/14 11:49 AM

Max, from one novice tuner to another - keep working on creating solid and stable unisons. The temperament is of little value if your unisons and octaves are not solid.

Glen
Posted by: bkw58

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/02/14 12:44 PM

In this very thread, our esteemed colleague, the late Jerry Groot, RPT, wrote,

"I have found over the years and many people here in PW fit into this category, that in many cases, many of the tuners in here can't hear worth a crap. They all claim that they can but when comments such as I like the unisons out of tune come forth and they like it that way; all that tells me is that they cannot get them clean themselves. It also tells me that they are not all that experienced as they lead us to believe with attempting to get clean unisons and, it tells me that they have not had much experience with truly good, concert artists that they, themselves can hear the difference between in and out of tune. Most of which want pure unison's not out of tune ones.

"Even with a bad recording, that tuning is easy to hear as is the bad voicing on it."


This thread is almost two years running. Criticism - constructive or otherwise - and words of encouragement can only go so far. Ultimately it is the tuner who must hear the difference between a wobbly unison and a clean one. No one can do this for him.
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/02/14 01:58 PM

There is talent and there is the voluntary to read, understand and try methods.

I have seen beginners tuner that could not hear a beat , learn to listen correctly in a very short time under adequate supervision.

Basic exercises are necessary until some result is obtained. unison, tempered slow intervals without moaning. stability.

I did not want to answer as I dont know what to say. It is finally up to the tuner to hear is his tuning is sounding good.

Look at the feet of the pianist and how she is obliged to use a lot the sustain pedal to hide a little the defects. Of course music limits that, but if whe where playing only arpeggios she would left the pedal on at all times, a little like with the sitar and cymbalum (no dampers). On pianos the tone have a begin, a body and an end, this is very different and the pianos may be capable of articulation.
BTW asking about temperament analysis is totally something else than what those videos provide, as it have been explained yet.

Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/03/14 01:47 AM

Originally Posted By: bkw58
Hi Max.

In the final analysis it really doesn't matter what I think. What do you think? And of paramount importance: What does Ms Sidorovich think?

Here, again, is the Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody No. 10. How would you compare the tunings? The first is yours. The second is by a tuner unknown.


Max's tuning.




Tuner unknown.

Hi,Bob
Matters to me until today. Mary unfortunately forced to play on my temperament, because no other grand piano or tuner do not have in this province. She does not like this piano, but she had to creat a video for the contest. That's the sad saga of a grand piano. Thank you all for your sincerity. I stop here forever. I'm sorry if someone is offended here
Forum Moderator can delete all my threads that wrote earlier here.
Regards,Max
Posted by: bkw58

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 04/03/14 11:11 AM

Hi Max,

There is no need for anyone to be offended here. You asked a question that directed me to this thread. Nothing says that you have to agree with my suggestion. (Indeed, Isaac had already pointed out that my response - that is, the posting of the videos - did not really answer your question.) Criticisms, disagreements and differing views are commonplace in technical forums. We've all had our share dishing it out and having it fed to us as well. It is important to remember that none of us are beyond reproach.

I hope that you'll reconsider.

Have a great day.

Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/19/14 04:29 AM

Max was invited to one of the music school as there were planning to hold a concert piano classical music. In concert performance took part two young ladies. Unfortunately we can not made a full video of their performance. For my taste they coped brilliantly with its task.In confirmation of my feelings and I hope yours also it's enthusiastic applause appreciative listeners . Thanks to an administration music school in the person of its director and all involved persons for organizing this concert was presented to residents beautiful musical evening of classical music of the Uralsk city .
But in this case Max is very interested in the opinion of a technicians the piano our Forum. Was been prepared this 2 Grand piano for the concert. Max waits criticisms, advice, etc.
Enjoy your viewing .
Regards, Max
http://youtu.be/GdhCjtzJoRY
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/19/14 08:05 AM

To me the front piano sounds better than the back piano, but not to a professional standard. The back piano sounds quite out of tune and no better than the piano than your previous post with Mary playing Hungarian Rhapsody.

Max, it is difficult to pin point the actual problems, so it is difficult to give you advice on how to improve. There just seems to be a general problem with unisons and poor octaves. Can you provide a playing of all single notes chromatically across the whole piano, and then octaves across all notes chromatically, and then major 3rds chromatically in the middle of the piano, and 5ths as well. That should be enough to judge better what is wrong. I know I have asked you this before but you have never provided.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/19/14 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
To me the front piano sounds better than the back piano, but not to a professional standard. The back piano sounds quite out of tune and no better than the piano than your previous post with Mary playing Hungarian Rhapsody.

Max, it is difficult to pin point the actual problems, so it is difficult to give you advice on how to improve. There just seems to be a general problem with unisons and poor octaves. Can you provide a playing of all single notes chromatically across the whole piano, and then octaves across all notes chromatically, and then major 3rds chromatically in the middle of the piano, and 5ths as well. That should be enough to judge better what is wrong. I know I have asked you this before but you have never provided.

Thank you, Chris Leslie.
Front standing piano "Petrof" more than 10 years had not a professional tuning. In the time allotted to me while I tried to tuning 2 piano in a unison tone, but probably not all turned out as me want. "Estonia" is very rear ancient. I was glad that it's at least sounded so. Previously, I never worked with double.
What concerns about your request about intervals, I can not execute it. I always have a little time to adjusting piano and tuning I can not do everything at once, sorry.
I will continue to try to made right temperament and to prove myself
Regards, Max
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/19/14 05:25 PM

If the Petrof had not been tuned for 10 years, and you only had a short time allotted, then you did a reasonable job. If you could do another followup tuning on the same piano then it should sound a bit better again.

If you are using the right techniques, then tuning the same piano several times over will refine the tuning and it will eventually become good. If you are not using good techniques then it will only get to a point and then never sound any better. We really have no idea of your aural tuning techniques at this stage. We only know a bit about how you use a tuning lever

About the intervals request, I understand that it is not possible for the concert pianos. Perhaps this could be done in a house one day when you get the opportunity. And, you could also explain your techniques with translation to English by a friend if possible.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/20/14 08:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
If the Petrof had not been tuned for 10 years, and you only had a short time allotted, then you did a reasonable job. If you could do another followup tuning on the same piano then it should sound a bit better again.

If you are using the right techniques, then tuning the same piano several times over will refine the tuning and it will eventually become good. If you are not using good techniques then it will only get to a point and then never sound any better. We really have no idea of your aural tuning techniques at this stage. We only know a bit about how you use a tuning lever

About the intervals request, I understand that it is not possible for the concert pianos. Perhaps this could be done in a house one day when you get the opportunity. And, you could also explain your techniques with translation to English by a friend if possible.


Hi,Chris Leslie.
Indeed one of the teachers of music theory , who lives and works here in Uralsk , found some discrepancies in my tuning. Remember you wrote about the "poor octaves " Petrof" . Perhaps it is inaccurate translation , but Russian is says "too inflated octaves in the treble ." He believes this fact valid , but notes that this is not europe norm . He also believes that "Estonia" suffers timbre , but still "in tone" . But he says that I " low bass " on an "Estonia" . I do it deliberately to give few flavor a colour. I think it worked out for Grieg . Rocky fjords covered thick ice , little good elves and power of the northern ocean , the harsh Scandinavian winds
Thank you for your kind words about "Petrov" . You wrote: " you've done a reasonable job ." I hope that this will improve tuning "Petrov" if the administration of the music school will invite me again . Will need to adjust it's action.
" We only know a little bit about how you use the setting lever " I have not using the lever more than 2 years only in single cases it's. In my main work I use the hammer from Sweden.
" Make the house one day , when you get the opportunity . " I have such plans , but I'm afraid that I'm too early to do it. Me need to learn and move on.
Thanks again for being looked a concert and gave me advices .
Sincerely, Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/20/14 10:33 PM

One performer and the same Rondo . But still sounds better "Petrof" which was tuned I'm than Philharmonic "Bluthner".
But what do you think about this you?
Or both very bad?
http://youtu.be/5GSc7U8lmfM

See here from 20:30
http://youtu.be/GdhCjtzJoRY
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/21/14 02:29 AM

you need to ask for 2 hours for tuning the grand pianos.

I dont understand how the piano was not tuned in 10 years. Does not sound possible. if not done professionally but just kept at pitch indeed all the pin setting have to be done and you need 2 hours probably.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/21/14 07:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
I dont understand how the piano was not tuned in 10 years. Does not sound possible.

It's realy things for all countries former USSR. There are all pianos makes not normal and no regulary in many child schools. In Kazakhstan very little professional tuners
Isaac,are you think that it's (my) temperament is very bad?
http://youtu.be/GdhCjtzJoRY
Posted by: Bosendorff

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/21/14 10:55 PM

Hi Max,

I'm not a piano tech, I mainly just tune and regulate my own piano. But when I try to work on some friend's old piano, I know it's difficult to create a stable tuning if the instrument is left without even basic care for long periods.

Given the context in which you have to work, I want to tell you I admire your efforts, tenacity and motivation - and I'm sure many there really appreciate what you do (students, teachers, etc.). It's obvious in your videos that you enjoy working on pianos and we can also see there is talented young pianists in schools where you are.

My question to you is : do you have a tuning software like TuneLab? That's what I use and it can really help to find the correct stretch for a piano - and it can also help you when time is short. Remember : I'm not a pro - but I thought I would ask you if you use a software because I learned quite a bit about tuning using one.

In any case, continue to work hard - I'm sure lots of students need their pianos tuned more often - and with continuous efforts and regular tunings you will achieve your goal!
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/22/14 01:22 PM

Max your unison are way better, but still too "wild" ((or not firmly set enough)

You seem to listen for eveness of tone, this is anyway not easy on that piano that need to be voiced (very sensible in the basses, the tone does not go out because the hammers are so hard)

The temperament is not really even, you need to work on that part more and send us the sequence you use , is it using mostly 5ths (I guess so) ?
The speed of the M3 and M6 tells you if your 5ths are good.

I find a much better musicality than what I heard before anyway.

too "greasy" (impure tone, not clean enough) and the treble notes are not really lining well with mediums for some tonalities , while others are just fine. F M arpeggio is OK for instance
Excellent pianist.

You need to make those hammers more elastic, so the pianist can play strong without the sound being harsh.

The piano will be easier to tune and will stay tune better too.


A little massaging of the strings in front of the bridge will help to focus better the unison.

Regards
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/22/14 01:33 PM

The Petrof is difficult to tune due to the tight angle on the strings.

You need very good lever technique to have the string stable in that segment of wire as in the sounding length .
Possibly that is what we hear, the unison move when played because the upper string segment is less (or more) tense than the sounding length . You need to feel perfectly the string and the tuning pin together to know how much you can turn the pin on reerse.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/22/14 11:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Bosendorff
Hi Max,

I'm not a piano tech, I mainly just tune and regulate my own piano. But when I try to work on some friend's old piano, I know it's difficult to create a stable tuning if the instrument is left without even basic care for long periods.

Given the context in which you have to work, I want to tell you I admire your efforts, tenacity and motivation - and I'm sure many there really appreciate what you do (students, teachers, etc.). It's obvious in your videos that you enjoy working on pianos and we can also see there is talented young pianists in schools where you are.

My question to you is : do you have a tuning software like TuneLab? That's what I use and it can really help to find the correct stretch for a piano - and it can also help you when time is short. Remember : I'm not a pro - but I thought I would ask you if you use a software because I learned quite a bit about tuning using one.

In any case, continue to work hard - I'm sure lots of students need their pianos tuned more often - and with continuous efforts and regular tunings you will achieve your goal!

Hi,Bosendorff
Thank you so much for your message . It fills me with optimism and entitles to move forward myself tuning. Unfortunately I started as a tuner because it's work was need here . I have state's diploma "a teacher of a Russian accordeon" (BAYN). As requested by many amateur and professional piano music I'm need does it's. But my clients no rich people. I wrote earlier that we have a very difficult economic situation in Kazakhstan. Virtually no money allocated by the state for the purchase of new pianos and their maintenance . Therefore there are no professional tuners , etc. I have to go to the huge costs of tangible pecuniary nature . If I just would be dug the ground my fee was significantly higher than those funds that I get for my tuning of a piano. However, you rightly pointed out that many people in my town really appreciates what I'm doing. I feel some moral discomfort from what I can not yet do their work quality . I'm try to do it as myself feeling and have myself powers.
I do not use as TuneLab, although I know what it is and know that it helps to work . But I have no right to make mistakes . The fact that each pin and a string and I pre- test to avoid damage . I think that my theoretical musical knowledge can not make a mistake in judgment. That is the device is certainly an assistant , but in my terms . I have in tough conditions did not make unnecessary extra motions of a pin . In fact , " my tuning " - is akin to the work of the sapper . Incorrect handling with a pin , a hurring - Explosion!
Thanks again for the moral support !
Regards, Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/22/14 11:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Max your unison are way better, but still too "wild" ((or not firmly set enough)

You seem to listen for eveness of tone, this is anyway not easy on that piano that need to be voiced (very sensible in the basses, the tone does not go out because the hammers are so hard)

The temperament is not really even, you need to work on that part more and send us the sequence you use , is it using mostly 5ths (I guess so) ?
The speed of the M3 and M6 tells you if your 5ths are good.

I find a much better musicality than what I heard before anyway.

too "greasy" (impure tone, not clean enough) and the treble notes are not really lining well with mediums for some tonalities , while others are just fine. F M arpeggio is OK for instance
Excellent pianist.

You need to make those hammers more elastic, so the pianist can play strong without the sound being harsh.

The piano will be easier to tune and will stay tune better too.


A little massaging of the strings in front of the bridge will help to focus better the unison.

Regards

Isaac as if you "got into my skin."
How are you could sharp feeling and see it's small nuances of my work?
Bravo! I truly admire you as a professional tuner. You helped me on this record made such important and useful for me an informations. Believe me it is very help in further work.
How exactly ALL yours critics, Isaac!
Sincerely, Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/23/14 01:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
You need to feel perfectly the string and the tuning pin together to know how much you can turn the pin on reerse.

I shall try it's. But it's so HARD!
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/24/14 02:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Bosendorff
we can also see there is talented young pianists in schools where you are.
I'm sure lots of students need their pianos tuned more often - and with continuous efforts and regular tunings you will achieve your goal!

Mary and Anastasia yesterday read what is written a technicians here. They are very grateful for your good words to them. A ladies sends of huge hello to ALL who watched this concert. It is not modest, but I'm also pleased to hear criticism. Me pleasure that I'm took part in a prepairing to it. Now it is small Max necessary to learns how to tuning the grand piano and to prove every day that he acts is right. This should be done because around him many young pianists and because it's the only way possible to their professional future. I hope that this will so
Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/24/14 04:07 AM

Maximilian, you may ask the school to come regularly so you will train on the available pianos.

As someone said, neglected pianos need more than a simple tuning probably 3 or 4 before beginning to hold in tune.

But you need to have a good temperament to tune better the whole piano.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/24/14 09:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Maximilian, you may ask the school to come regularly so you will train on the available pianos.

As someone said, neglected pianos need more than a simple tuning probably 3 or 4 before beginning to hold in tune.

But you need to have a good temperament to tune better the whole piano.




Isaac, I hope that it will be so . Indeed, you rightly pointed out about " neglected pianos ." I shall look forward to working with the administration of this music school. I would like to believe that my visits will be ongoing in the future. And it will have regularly character. To grand piano was always prepared for concert performances. Besides, I believe that we need to tuning all school piano here.Basically this upright pianos. A students will have good studing because it will tuning pianos. From my side will be full support. I believe that my physical and my moral strengths will be enough to do it. Perhaps that is a huge practice will contribute to my improving of a tuning and repairing pianos.
Thanks for your support.
With respect , Max
Posted by: Bosendorff

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/24/14 04:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Mary and Anastasia yesterday read what is written a technicians here. They are very grateful for your good words to them. A ladies sends of huge hello to ALL who watched this concert.

Hi Max, please tell them "hello!" from me at the music school. I think it's very refreshing to see talented young pianists as on your videos, who choose to learn classical repertoire. Recently, I was moved by a few conservatory students here in my city - once again, surprising young talents focused on beautiful music.

On and did you tune the piano on the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GSc7U8lmfM video? It's certainly not perfect (some keys with unisons out of phase), but quite decent. So you are for sure improving as Isaac mentioned! Have a nice weekend.
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 05/24/14 09:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Bosendorff
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Mary and Anastasia yesterday read what is written a technicians here. They are very grateful for your good words to them. A ladies sends of huge hello to ALL who watched this concert.

Hi Max, please tell them "hello!" from me at the music school. I think it's very refreshing to see talented young pianists as on your videos, who choose to learn classical repertoire. Recently, I was moved by a few conservatory students here in my city - once again, surprising young talents focused on beautiful music.

On and did you tune the piano on the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GSc7U8lmfM video? It's certainly not perfect (some keys with unisons out of phase), but quite decent. So you are for sure improving as Isaac mentioned! Have a nice weekend.


Hi,Bosendorff
Be sure I shall give your good wishes for girls. They are good girls, which "plows tirelessly on your piano."
About the video. I did not do this grand piano. And the one who tune it up, I think it would be better not do that. Read this topic:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2277328
Regards,Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 06/01/14 05:22 AM

Dear technicians. For me it is very important your opinion and your evaluation. Today I found this video on the network. It was 04.11. 2014. This is three weeks before my tuning two grand piano in a school
http://youtu.be/jLuhfKt5Kjg
Is there a positive dynamics of my corrections in my tuning? Or it does not was?
http://youtu.be/GdhCjtzJoRY
Regards,Max
Posted by: rxd

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 06/03/14 12:33 PM

Max, could your spread in the unisons be a conscious or subconscious attempt to ameliorate the harsh tone quality of these pianos? Good unisons only serve to focus the harshness and hardness of the hammers but tuning poor unisons doesn't really solve the problem. It only disguises it while creating another.

While it is possible for a highly skilled pianist to produce a variety of more acceptable tone qualities even from these pianos, some tone regulation that keeps most of the attack but increases depth of tone and removes the hardness (clankiness) from the tone would make the pianists' work easier while retaining their ability to manipulate the tone quality as they play.

Well practiced as the pianists on your videos are, tone quality is not uppermost in their minds.

This is highly skilled work that can be practiced on old hammers before they are replaced or on a piano that is on its last legs anyway and could only be improved while gaining experience.

There are some single needle techniques mentioned recently that you could practice. Each hammer will be of uneven hardness so deal with only those hammers that are the loudest first after sanding all the hammers as close to the original shape as you can.
Practice on old spent uprights first so that you develop a good idea of what you are doing.

As you improve the tone, see how much you can also improve your unisons.

Posted by: Olek

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 06/03/14 05:32 PM

ALso, with a so hard tone, the ear get tired an "forget" to listen to the hard attack (unless you play very softly)

I agree the defects of voicing may be very apparent once the piano is tuned, . That is what help to voice efficiently, the harshness can be a little reduced by unison eventually but that is not worth the effort.

It is clearly hear that you have tried to even the tone. That mean that you gained some mastering of the lever manipulation, which is good.

I think that massaging the hammers with pliers could help to hear better what need to be voiced, because it will "close" the tone somehow and make the shoulders more supple.

Hardness will still be present but more sustained tone will show you the way.
Just try on one hammer on a too clear note for instance.
Pliers will at the same time free the crown and ad some resiliency to the shoulders (temporarely unfortunately)





Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 06/03/14 09:36 PM

My dear teachers, Isaac & RXD.
I'm very happy for your complete answers. Hope this will help me continue my work. Today I will study ALL. Now a lot of work in the garden. I shall hard work in the vegetable beds to survive in future.
I will very carefully study your every word.
Regards Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 06/05/14 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Max, could your spread in the unisons be a conscious or subconscious attempt to ameliorate the harsh tone quality of these pianos? Good unisons only serve to focus the harshness and hardness of the hammers but tuning poor unisons doesn't really solve the problem. It only disguises it while creating another.

While it is possible for a highly skilled pianist to produce a variety of more acceptable tone qualities even from these pianos, some tone regulation that keeps most of the attack but increases depth of tone and removes the hardness (clankiness) from the tone would make the pianists' work easier while retaining their ability to manipulate the tone quality as they play.

Well practiced as the pianists on your videos are, tone quality is not uppermost in their minds.

This is highly skilled work that can be practiced on old hammers before they are replaced or on a piano that is on its last legs anyway and could only be improved while gaining experience.

There are some single needle techniques mentioned recently that you could practice. Each hammer will be of uneven hardness so deal with only those hammers that are the loudest first after sanding all the hammers as close to the original shape as you can.
Practice on old spent uprights first so that you develop a good idea of what you are doing.

As you improve the tone, see how much you can also improve your unisons.


Good day,my dear,rxd.
Rather, I did it more than consciously. Should also be noted that at first I was taken aback and did not know how to act when I did found that grands . it's public playing was not enough time for me tuning before. Between two grand pianos had bad tones. I took a chance and made it's as soon as possible. I understand that you are all well noted many things about my tuning here.But I had still huge difficulties. Especially with " Petrof ", who refused to had good unison. I am very slowly builded each unison repeatedly checking and verifying hearing effect of their actions. City audience was satisfied with my sound , but I realize that this is not something that should be at the city concert. A sound must better .
Yes , the ladies pianist deserve better sound. And they did play a super class for these unsightly pianos , I think so. You correctly pointed out that I tried was only a " hidden flaws " but I could not make a good pitch ( Good unisons only serve to focus the harshness and hardness of the hammers but tuning poor unisons doesn't really solve the problem. It only disguises it while creating another). But I made a try it's
To improve the piano sound by improving the technical properties of the hammer , I shall read certainly about needles and grinding , etc. I have their own training , I 'll just make for junk on the piano , as you recommend ( that you develop a good idea of ​​what you are doing and understand it's . )
Perhaps improve their own unison will help improve my whole tuning. I sure hope so .
Regards, Max
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 06/05/14 08:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
ALso, with a so hard tone, the ear get tired an "forget" to listen to the hard attack (unless you play very softly)

I agree the defects of voicing may be very apparent once the piano is tuned, . That is what help to voice efficiently, the harshness can be a little reduced by unison eventually but that is not worth the effort.

It is clearly hear that you have tried to even the tone. That mean that you gained some mastering of the lever manipulation, which is good.

I think that massaging the hammers with pliers could help to hear better what need to be voiced, because it will "close" the tone somehow and make the shoulders more supple.

Hardness will still be present but more sustained tone will show you the way.
Just try on one hammer on a too clear note for instance.
Pliers will at the same time free the crown and ad some resiliency to the shoulders (temporarely unfortunately)






I shall read ALL your german link. Thank your very much, Isaac. And I soon shall find this pliers as on pictures
Posted by: Maximillyan

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? - 07/29/14 09:40 AM

Max has some confusion about this
Published the results of the International Music Competition "SILVER PASSAGE" 2013-2014.(International Arts Festival
Competition and Exhibition Project)
http://start-culture.com/results/passage-2013-2014

According to the results Mary Sidorovich is Laureate First degree. Instrumental Performance (Piano)
http://youtu.be/9uRD9oYM4IQ
http://youtu.be/lbIidg8wJmc
Then all tuners spoke: "the piano does not have the temperament." Max knows that does have some flaws and bad beats in the choruses. But why noble jury of music professors give Mary the highest score? Perhaps their charmed nor only Mary's manner of play but also Max's temperament of "Yamaha" . And what do you think about it?