Why not using cheap tuning hammers?

I buyed a 20$ tuning hammers. And I cant tune my piano with it. I dont know if that is becuse I am a bad tuner or becuse the hammer is bad.

The tip dont fit realy good on the tuning pins, the hammer is wobling a lot. But when I aplay pressure on it the friction makes the hammer stick to the tuning pins.

When I want to make fine adjustments, I put a little tension on the hammer and nothing happens I put a litle more tension and sudenly the pin moves 5 degreas and the unison sounds realy bad.

Will a have simular problems if I go for a more expensive hammer?
If you think I shuld upgrade my hammer, are there anything I shult pay atension to? And how can I know I dont get cheated?

With tools, you get what you pay for....

'Exactly! A really good hammer will cost you about the same as the price of two tunings.

Your cheap hammer probably has low grade steel on the tip and it is deforming as you try and tune with it. Eventually it will be completely useless for tuning; it will still work well for hitting yourself in the head for buying it in the first place.

Pay attention to the tip, it should have threads attaching it to the head. This will allow you to change it out if it wears. A good tip like a Watanabe for example will cost you as much as the $20 you paid for the whole thing. I think you need to spend at least $80-100 for even an entry level hammer that will last you a long time. Someone doing this for a living would want to get one that is at least in the $120-150 range. The uber hammers can cost 3 times this much.

Hi Reiman,
Something doesn't sound right with your post. I'm going to out on a limb and call your bluff. Are you really a newbie DIY or a piano tuner trying to have a little fun in the forum?

A good quality tip, and a good lever is an advantage to someone starting out.

You can own the best tool, but if you can't use it, it is useless.

I guess these 20$ levers serve their purpose, to make honestly committed DIY'ers, realise and rethink the amount of experience needed in order to set a pin.

Experienced tuners can tune a piano with a student hammer. It's no fun and annoying. But they can. Amateurs are in for a ride.

I use a Fujan, and on some grands, with my long tip, I can't tune A0 because it is beneath the music desk rail.

I keep an old pitching hammer, must be 80 years old now, short tip and a bent shaft and a wooden handle.

Best tip ever, as good as the day it was machined. But the flex in the shaft is evident, you can see it bend before the pin.

So....

All the best.

Its no bluff. I have never tuned a piano before.
Another question, do I need #2 tip if my tuning pins are 5mm (3/16 in) closest top the pianist and 6mm (1/4 in) closest to the strings?

I have 2 tuning hammers, one was my grandfathers from the 1930's which still works fine, sometimes on older pianos, it doesnt grip as well, and the other is the same hammer I got when I took the courses from The American Piano Tuning School at home. It might be cheap? But it still works for me. Perhaps I should look into a better quality of hammers. Still new to all this so....learning.

I just bought a $130 tuning tip plus a $35 adapter to fit onto my $300 + tuning lever. I am very happy with it - it works quite well. This is probably because I have learned to tune pianos efffectively and I invest in good quality tools.

For someone who wants to tune their own piano such as yourself, you may help among your peers at this Yahoo group:
DIY pianotunings

Woah! Who makes that?!

If you have never tuned before and are using a $20 tool, then the reasonS you aren't finding success are because you are bad tuner (no offense intended) AND the hammer is bad.

Solutions: Become a better tuner and get a better tool. Easy!

Beethoven - I brought one in from Europe to try it out. If I like it I will carry it and offer it to technicians. I have just tuned a few pianos with it. I will hopefully know more after further testing, so stay tuned...
arf arf

WOW! THAT was an entertaining site. Sites like that may explain a couple of very odd tunings I've encountered lately.

Sounds good!

Rieman,

I would like to add my perspective, having started to tune about 3 years ago, and having done only tens (not hundreds or thousands) of tunings. As others have written, a cheap lever, and especially a cheap, poorly-made tip will be counterproductive to your learning - and they may well damage your piano's tuning pins. OK, that's the one extreme.

The other extreme is spending many hundreds of dollars. While professionals such as Jurgen may be happy to do this, I don't regard those amounts as even remotely necessary for a beginner. Especially a tip for $130!

Emmery has already indicated that there is a suitable middle ground between these extremes. Quite a decent lever can be bought for $100 ($150 at most), and good tips, e.g. Watanabe, for about $20. In my case, I don't think that my Schaff extension lever and Watanabe tip are limiting me (yet). To the contrary, they inspire me to make more of each tuning I do.

Hi,
We help piano do-it-yourself people. Send a PM and I can give you more information.

Supply, waiting your supply.

If you are a professional pianist or playing piano as your life long bobby, its worth to invest a set of quality tool. A high quality hammer cost far lesser than an ipad.

He might have meant "$13" for the tip I think...probably a typo.

Beware of tips sold with lifetime guarantees...they simply tag a $10 handling fee (+shipping) to the shipped replacement and still make their money on the ~$3 pacific rim import.

I'm not so sure. Jurgen is not really known for selling inexpensive items, and $13 is like half of what the Watanabes cost.

He might be referring to the BKB tips from Germany. Very expensive, but considering the tip is the only point of contact with the wrest pin, there is much sense in investing in quality.

Oh in Germany they are now selling carbon tuning hammers with rosewood tips.

Since this looks like the sort of thread, though, may I ask a newbie question?

Just why do they call it a hammer, it's not a hammer, it's a wrench?

Carbon fiber hammers are nothing new. The handle is rosewood, not the tip. The tip is what goes on the pin, and it's made of steel.




Don't know. It bugs me, too. I usually just call it a "piano tuning thingy".

A 'ball peen' hammer with a socket tip on the other end was used back in the day. Turn the pin and tap it down with the peen hammer side. Here in modern times, most suppliers list them as 'Tuning Levers'.

But why did they turn the the hammer around and "tap it down?"

Early tuning pins were tapered and tapping them down was a way to seat the pin firmly in the hole and get it to stay where it was put.

Hence the tool was both a tuning lever and a hammer. Modern tuners refer to them by both names.

ddf

never seen a tapered early tuning pin, not on European pianos, in my limited experience.

but tapping a few mm allow to gain a little grip in new wood, while providing a few years of tuning, it also may lower the quality of the pin setting because the angle of the wire with the coil may be compromized (or the coils may finish touching the pinblock)

so this is a so so solution, while convenient, may be used with finesse and sometime the gain is minimal.

called "tamponnage des chevilles", or "tubage" in French

While this statement is somewhat laughable to professionals (someone called it a bluff), perhaps laypeople cannot entirely comprehend why. I submit this comparison:
"I bought a set of golf clubs online for $49.-. But I still can't shoot a hole in one. Is it me or the clubs?"

Further comments of mine would be: Congratulations on hearing that your tuning is not good (I am serious). This means your hearing ability is better than your tuning ability. This is the way it should be. Even good tuners walk away from their tunings with a sense that they have not quite achieved perfection. That is what allows us to incrementally improve our skills and abilities and our work in pursuit of excellence over a number of years, if not decades.

Most DIYers actually think their tunings are good because their hearing discernability is so limited that they simply cannot hear the out-of-tuneness. We have seen numerous video postings of such "tunings". For the most part, these pianos are about as out of tune (after "tuning") as the ones professional tuners sit down to tune.

One more thing: You ask if you are a bad tuner. No. You are not a tuner. Just as buying a stethoscope would not make you a health practitioner.

This is the single thing that I love the most about this job. The sense that, even after a succesful tuning, I know I could have done better. A wonderful insentive to continually improve!

My piano i 8 cent flat and my mobile tunelab software wants me to do a overpull of 2 cents, is that something i shuld trust on?

one may be a little masochist to be a tuner then.

or the "good enough" thinking begin to be prevalent.

Generally speaking one can know he have done the best he can under particular circumstances, but indeed no real standard exists in regard of tuning result.

because of ear fatigue it is difficult to correct a tuning while doing it, so often you hear in the end of the job that you could have do a part differently, sometime it is only the piano which settle in the new tuning.

taking a rest during tuning is the most useful thing. Concert tuning should be done in 2 parts the last (before concert) being better than the first. but this is highly theoretical..

Haha I'm not so sure about masochism but yes, we must be our own critics - coming to a final check and finding so many things out of place and correcting them. Reconsidering the tuning of some notes over the break or at the extreme ends, second-guessing oneself. Even when the final result is as good as it can be, there are always parts during the tuning process that I wish I could have solved quicker or been more confident in - one always has to keep moving and not obsess over individual notes, sometimes that has to happen before you're happy with that note. But we come back, we correct. It's fun

Most piano tuners (including concert tuners) have that "doubts".

This is due , to me, to the absence of "rule" to ascertain the level of sympathetic resonance the tuning is providing.

also the "overpull" is obtained by expercience and feel and it is not (in my experience) related to a precise technique, no real method to be sure of the amount of overpull used (at 4 cts there is yet clear settling, and all tuners tune "high", not "pure", with methods as pure 5th, pure 12ths, a certain amount of acceleration between 3d and tenth or tenth and 17th, or a software)

So you check your tuning once settled, and only feel and experience is ruling that light overpull.


add the temperature change at some point in the day and it is understandable that the final check show things we wigh to have obtained differently..

The main effect of the method provided by Alfredo is that it gives an etalon to the max resonance; this can serve as a reference, and it gives a lot of confidence to the tuner (even experienced concert tuners find the advantage there, as the last brick for a wall, as a definitive clearing of concepts that where a little unclear.)

If you are tuning the right string to the left string on a two string unison how do you know if the right string is sharp or flat?

You can lift the dampers and pluck the two strings of the unison. Often, one can hear which one is flat.

Or you can play the note and turn the tuning lever anti-clockwise. One of two things will happen:

1) If the beat speed increases, the right string was already flat. You have made it flatter, so you need to change the direction to clockwise.

2) If the beat speed decreases, it was sharp. You need to keep going anti-clockwise until the beat disappears.

You can tell by hearing it. Learning to tune takes hundreds of hours of dedicated study and specific ear training. Welcome to the learning curve.

Reiman~
A little tip...

If you are unsure whether the string you are tuning is sharp or flat relative to the reference string, always, always, make sure you gently lower the pitch of the string you are tuning. This also helps to ensure you are on the correct pin/string to begin with.

Jurgen, sounds like the BKB tip. I have one of these (#3). I like it better than the current Watanabes for sure (which I think are awful) and like it somewhat better than the Sole tip. I would like to compare it with Jahn tips, but my current Goss lever doesn't accommodate Jahn well.

I find the BKB a better fit than those other tips, but $100 better..not sure. But then again every time I change to a different tip I look forward to changing back to the BKB...I guess that says something...but its not a WOW kind of thing.

Jim Ialeggio

I'm slowly starting to share this opinion. The one on my Levitan is kind of loose, and it hasn't even gone through 300 tunings, yet.

Jurgen, that is solid gold.

There is absolutely no reason in the world other than gouging to charge well over $100 for a tuning tip. Even the slowest/most exacting/ most expensive manufacturing process (plunge EDM) on A2 quality air hardened alloy steel with top quality plating and QC follow up on this tiny item does not justify a cost like this.
The present faltering/declining economy of this former Euro giant does not justify a ridiculous cost like this it either
IMHO.

I quite disagree. Its a always a question of scale or production, not actual processes, that create these kind of high custom prices...like say, uhh, piano rebuilding...

But once you get into automated scales of production, you get a watanabe, inconsistent and sloppy. Note, I differentiate the current Wantanbe tips from the older tips which reportedly were really nice, though I've never tried one of these older tips.

Jim Ialeggio

I quite disagree. Its a always a question of scale or production, not actual processes, that create these kind of high custom prices...like say, uhh, piano rebuilding...

But once you get into automated scales of production, you get a watanabe, inconsistent and sloppy. Note, I differentiate the current Wantanbe tips from the older tips which reportedly were really nice, though I've never tried one of these older tips.

Jim Ialeggio

I agree with you in part on this Jim as far as some things go, but not with tuning tips. They are being used on a wide variety of tuning pins, both in sizing, conformity and quality. Plus the pins can already be a bit pre-mangled from previous tunings using poor fitting tips. Do we realize the value of a near perfectly machined tip thats being used on parts that are not...nope. So we are left with the durability equation. Making durable tips with the right amount of hardness/toughness is not rocket science and does not involve a 6:1 ratio in cost.

I do believe in quality tools for the right application. All my machinist measuring tools for eg. are Etalon/Helios/Tesa ect..German or Swiss made and they are pricey. They cost a lot to begin with so I don't want to buy another one in my lifetime. If I go 3-5 years with a 20$ tip....I will be dead before I recover the cost of one that costs 6-7 times as much.

The inconsistency of the pin tops is a very strong point.

But does that mean fit doesn't matter? My bod' prefers the feedback I get for a snug tip, even though, as you say the pins are so inconsistent to begin with, and worn to boot, that consistency is not there...but still I find the connection in the Watanbes really frustrating.

I don't know where the intersection between adequate fit and pin inconsistency is, but it does seem to be there somewhere. As I said, I like the BKB, but its not a WOW difference. Would I do it again...probably not...I'd figure out how to get a Jahn on my Goss or switch to Charles Faulk's lever, which I intend on doing in the near future anyway.

Jim Ialeggio

Very bad new about Watanabe if confirmed, in 12 years I have buy an extra #2 tip , and I still use the old one sometime, it just wobbles a little on some pins.

May be as I buy those from Yamaha the quality differs (I hope so as I have to buy a complete lever for a friend)

There are different ways of looking at it. I feel gouged when I buy a cheap tool that doesn't perform properly and it lands in the junk tool drawer. I have never felt gouged when I bought a good quality, albeit expensive tool when it is a tool that I need for my work.

Consider that there are a lot of really poor tips (junk) out there sold for $20 or more. $100.00 for a quality tool just stopped looking so bad.
Consider that the tuning tip will pay for itself by the time you get through 3/4 of the first job of thousands you will reliably be able to do with it. Or if you want to look at it as a piece of inventory that gets depreciated over time, it will add $0.02 more or less to your cost per tuning over 10 or 20 years. Again, the cost starts to look quite reasonable, to me, anyway. (Raise your tuning price by two cents! )

Why not buy a excellent piece of equipment, made by trained and experienced tool and die makers in small batches from the highest quality material?

I call it investment in myself and my business as a professional. Does everyone need to do have it? Of course not. Thank goodness for options and for competition.

Just take out my first hammer to test it. Its low quality China made. The gap between the tip and pin is loose, tend to bend the pin. The weight distribution toward head. Very uncomfortable to move from pin to pin. If tune one or two pin, its OK. If tune whole pinao, I don't know. I don't want to use it to tune more than one pin! High end hammer may ten time expensive. Its still cheap compare to most electronic toy.

The problmem is that in pianos the low/cheap quality seem to be used as the etalon - if all the tips you find are lesser grade steel, then a good one get pricey because it is made in small batches.

Usually a tuning pin may not marr the tip, as its metal is soft. a good tip will correct a marred tuning pin somehow.

Does someone have a concrete tips on not too expensive tuning hammer?
Where can i buy one?
I lookt at
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=pian...r&_osacat=0
and
http://www.thomann.de/gb/jahn_klavierstimmset_pro.htm

All piano supply houses offer quality mid priced tuning levers. For example; I find Shaff products to be professional quality at very reasonable prices. If your really going on the cheap, get a gooseneck tuning lever. I know some long experienced tuners who swear by them.

Is this site good?
http://www.pianosupply.com/ips/

This is more reputable:
http://www.pianosupplies.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=tuningequipment

Check out the Basic Tuning kit, which will get you started for about as little money as possible, but will still give you decent tools. Try to stay away from any tuning hammer less than 50 or 60 bucks. Also watch out for imitations that have pretty-looking wood and pretty photos, but the quality of the steel machining on the business end of the lever is poor, leaving you with a useless tool (such as the website you linked to, from what I've read and heard here on the forums).

Good luck on your search!

Loved this post, I even laughed more than once. But gathered some really helpful information.

also www.stevespianoservice.com

Well, fit does matter as far as the tip actually grabbing the pin at some point, instead of kind of stripping out the way the junk tips do. But there is a divergence as far as "tight fit" is concerned. Some folk like a tight, firm fit and others like a loose fit. I'm in the latter category but know quality tuners in both camps.

What is BKB?

My tuning tip just failed today where it threads to the lever. Fortunately CA let me finish the tuning.
I find that tips die after about 3000 tunings . . .

I have never had a tip die, but I just renewed one of the ends of my tuning lever extension with a $5 1/8" pipe die from the hardware store. I took a little off the end with a grinder so the tip would not bottom out, too.

Keith,

BKB is short for B.&K. Baumgärtel:
http://www.pianoteile-baumgaertel.de/

It's one of the (more) reputable German piano parts & tools suppliers.

BKB is possibly selling their own tools but the origin of most of their calalog is Meyne, Jahnn, possibly Pianotek, or Joe Goss, Spurlock.

They take what is interesting to re sell.

Jahnn tips and tuning levers are among the most long lasting (actually around 5 years of dayly tuning iof you nudge a lot, probably life lasting if you are cautious and tune pianos with decent pins.

Basic precautions are :
Take off the dust on the tuning pins , it act as emeri powder on the tip and pin)

Use the good tip, the metal of the pin is often soft enough that a good tip will make new shjarp edges on a lightly buried pin (assuming your technique is not bumbing much)

I have a tuning hammer with its original tip, dating 1930 or even more

The tip have zero play. the hammer is very light and rigid. I use it on most old pianos and the modern ones with thin tuning pins.

Heavy hammer seem to help on new pianos (floor tuning) but the benefit you have with the hammer inertia is somewhat lost by the effort on the scapula muscles just to move the hammer from pin to pin.

I'm tuning daily with ancient tuning hammers that so far have never failed me. One was given to me in 1977 by a customer who had found it in a piano bench of an old used piano. The tip has never worn out. It is a very old Hale with it's rosewood handle. The other I purchased in 1975, also a Hale. However, I'm a huge fan of Jurgen's tool selection intuition. I bought the adjustable voicing tool several years ago and it has saved me countless hours in voicing. The let off tool that fits American Steinways on one end and Hamburg on the other is another that has a permanent spot in my bag. I've bought other tuning hammers over the years but keep coming back to the old ones so I sort of have the feeling that I'm working on borrowed time. I know I need a new one as backup, so if Jurgen likes it, I'll buy it. Who knows, it might supplant my antique hammers.

Thank you Sally for this glowing and unsolicited testimonial. I wish I could say that the check is in the mail, however, that would blow my annual advertising budget.

Word of mouth is priceless anyhow, especially when coming from someone as yourself. (For those who don't know, Sally has held a number of high profile positions including head of Technical Services for Bechstein USA. When she speaks, people listen.)

I don't know why guys spend money on tips and hammers. I just use my fingers, you can really feel the pin movement this way, haha. However if its been a long day and my fingers are tired I use a Charles Faulk hammer. I also don't think $130 is a lot to spend on a tip if it works well. If you are just starting out tuning I can understand not coughing up that kind of cash, but when this is your career invest in the best.

I worked many years in high end machining and Tool and die with a great deal of that time quoting prices for items far more sophisticated than an internally splined tuning tip. I would have to be insane to pay $130 for a tuning tip. There is no applicable alloy, heat treating process, machining operation or finish that can justify that cost for this item....period. I would love to see any proof showing otherwise.

I've had the odd tip not last as long as I wished it would from even good names like Watanabe, but have several which have lasted many, many years for 1/10 that cost.