New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production

Posted by: Robert Di Santo

New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/08/12 05:06 PM


ATTENTION PIANO GEEKS! A GRANITE PIANO?!?!


New Engineering Concepts on Sound Production
presented by the Piano Technicians Guild, Chicago Chapter


Richard Bosworth

Tuesday, September 18 - 7:00pm

PianoForte Salon, 410 S. Michigan Ave., Studio 825
FREE admission; open to the public

Stonetone (R) Music, Inc. is launching a revolutionary new concept in piano design, allowing for greater clarity of sound, sustain and register integration of the entire keyboard range. This is achieved by the direct and efficient transference of string vibrations through granite bridges to the soundboard.

Robert B. Di Santo, the inventor of this technology and owner of Stonetone (R) Music, has teamed up with Daniel Koehler, piano technician and owner of Naples Piano Company, to retrofit pre-existing pianos with these specialized bridges. Modifications have been made on PianoForte's 5' Story and Clark piano which will be demonstrated and discussed at the meeting by pianist, partner, and spokesperson Richard Bosworth.

Listen to an example of a piano with a granite bridge

www.pianofortefoundation.org

©2012 PianoForte Foundation | 408 S. Michigan Ave. | Chicago, IL 60605 | 312.291.0291
Posted by: chuck belknap

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/08/12 05:22 PM

can't find it
Posted by: beethoven986

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/08/12 06:02 PM

Originally Posted By: chuck belknap
can't find it


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr4gd7JWSzs
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/08/12 07:25 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFmEByS9Z0w&feature=share&list=ULPFmEByS9Z0w

This is the most recent link since we installed the 20 additional dampers.
in comparison to a Fazoli 6'3 Grand..
Posted by: John Pels

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/08/12 09:43 PM

Any pix of that bridge?
Posted by: BDB

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/08/12 10:58 PM

With two recordings miked at different distances and perhaps different pedalings it is hard to know what is due to the bridge. The attack of the second recording is rather strange. It sounds almost like an organ.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/08/12 11:58 PM

The compression of you tube etc. doesn't give the true effect than in person, but the tone on this indonesian crude entry level piano surpasses any keyboard in existence in the treble registers beside the sustain and angelic tone.


The presentation will cover many aspects of this New technology hands on with the folks attending. Until I complete a piano of significant quality then we will know much more of the real possibilities yet to experience while our entry level prototype continually proves this novel concept to valid and cutting edge for the acoustic piano industry.

Replacing the wood bridge with a granite bridge improves the acoustic piano performance no different than taking an analog to digital but naturally. Every density will have a different affect on the tone. Stonetone® Music of the Earth®
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/09/12 12:10 AM

The piano is @ pianoforte chicago if you would like to see the workmanship. Performance and testimonies by Dr. Richard Bosworth. You can view Richards website @ www.richardbosworth.org
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/09/12 12:21 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFmEByS9Z0w&feature=share&list=ULPFmEByS9Z0w There are 6 performances to view in comparison, if you listen to earlier links of Claire D Lune especially, you can tell the over tones in the treble were uncontrollable since the treble is so resonant. now that the additional dampers have been installed there is total control.

Using the granite as the optimum transducer taking the strings energy to the soundboard without signal loss is clearly obvious. Utilizing the stored energy within the atoms of the crystalline matrix of the stone provides a faster response and even clear sound with minimal to no percussiveness..
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/09/12 04:43 AM

Robert, why granite? I can appreciate the potential for a medium that transmits sound very well, but it is very coarse grained with a mash of minerals with varying density and maybe sound diffraction. Why not fine-grained homogenous basalt, or even glass?
Posted by: mariotto

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/09/12 06:14 AM

Sounds like some clavinova or other electronic device...
Posted by: David Jenson

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/09/12 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By: BDB
With two recordings miked at different distances and perhaps different pedalings it is hard to know what is due to the bridge. The attack of the second recording is rather strange. It sounds almost like an organ.
Yup. There are too many variables that can occur purposefully or accidentally in a recording.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/09/12 08:30 AM

Chris,

Not all granites are ideal for this concept yet there are thousands of choices to use based on there mineral composition.. For instance Dr. Robert Youngquist and Dr. Stanley Starr nasa applied physicists clarified that the materials I have used for the Stonetone® technologies are Ideal for the placement in the piano. These folks have helped me on several aspects of my invention related to the mineral matrix and why granite is the optimum TRANSDUCER for this improvement. I will share with you one of our conversations that clarify this to be fact.

Professor Starr and I both studied this presentation. We discussed it,looked at some on-line resources,and reviewed our book on physics of music. In addition, we researched the patent database and was surprised to find no patents ever with the words piano and bridge in the abstract, so Mr. Di Santo may actually have something novel here.

Professor star and I both agree that there are good physical reasons to prefer using granite, instead of wood, in the bridge of a piano. The purpose of the bridge is to couple energy from a vibrating string to the soundboard within the piano and consequently, there are two attributes the bridge should have; 1) it should minimize loss of energy and 2) it should transfer the string energy over a large area of the soundboard. Granite is preferable to for both of these since it transmits sound with less loss and more quickly than wood.

We shant go further down this path since we are NASA Aerospace Physicists and are not foremost experts in piano physics. Hopefully this helps. While we find your project extremely interesting, we suggest you find further assistance in the private sector.



This communication was back in 2008 I have an insurmountable amount of science that clarifies this to be true by fact not assumptions while there is a mountain of knowledge yet to discover as I work diligently to complete this hugh effort.
Posted by: John Pels

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/09/12 09:16 AM

Robert, the soundboard is crowned to a greater or lesser degree and responds to humidity changes, as would a wooden bridge to a greater or lesser degree. Stone does not afford any elasticity to my limited knowledge. How is this factored in and how does your bridge conform or change with the board? It would seem (to the uninitiated) that it would prevent the board from propagating sound. Enlighten me please.
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/09/12 09:36 AM

Originally Posted By: John Pels
Robert, the soundboard is crowned to a greater or lesser degree and responds to humidity changes, as would a wooden bridge to a greater or lesser degree. Stone does not afford any elasticity to my limited knowledge. How is this factored in and how does your bridge conform or change with the board? It would seem (to the uninitiated) that it would prevent the board from propagating sound. Enlighten me please.


This is exactly what I was thinking also. Granite is extremely stable and will not twist/warp or bend. It is used in fine measuring devices, layout/inspecion tables ect for this reason.

There would need to be some interface material between it and the soundboard, or else a gap or poor fit will ensue for parts of the year that cause the soundboard to shift up and down.

Also, would a heavy stable material like granite not effect the impedance of the soundboard out near its edges? I am inclined to think it would deaden it.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/09/12 09:44 AM

John,

The granite bridge acts as a support system eliminating the issues of degradation of the crown of any soundboard it is attached to. For instance, when our prototype was transported from humid south Florida to Chicago, that trip took 3 1/2 weeks of travel to multiple destinations for pick up from this carrier to another depot to be picked up and so on until the arrival. The piano stayed in tune during this time since there is no flex or elasticity to the granite @ the same time keeping the soundboard intact based on the support system it is attached to.

To me, the critical aspect of this technology is fitting the granite bridge within 0.002 of an inch literally stone bonded to the soundboard fitted as tightly as possible with minimal glue for DIRECT relation to the soundboard.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/09/12 01:12 PM

Here is a link about our prototype & press release thats been introduced in my field of work that you folks may find interesting.
slipperyrockgazette.net/file/archive/0111/pdfs/Issue_25.htm
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/14/12 08:55 AM

Don't miss the September 18th Stonetone® Q n A session @ the Pianoforte Chicago 8th floor hosted by The Piano Technicians Guild.
Posted by: kpembrook

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/14/12 09:37 AM

I'm 5 1/2 hours away and won't be able to run down just for that. But I will be in Chicago that following weekend 21-23. Would the piano still be there and be viewable at that time?
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/14/12 10:57 AM

Keith,
Yes, the piano will be there until feb 1st 2013. Ask any of the staff about the piano and they will take you to the location since the venue is large.
Posted by: kpembrook

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/14/12 01:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Keith,
Yes, the piano will be there until feb 1st 2013. Ask any of the staff about the piano and they will take you to the location since the venue is large.


Great! I'll plan on dropping in to see it.
thumb
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/16/12 09:47 AM

To the folks who are pros,technicians, masters in there own right etc.. have critical views on incorporating granite and other types a stone into the design of a piano is unorthodox but until you hear one in person as the PTG did and Thomas Zoells owner of the Pianoforte Chicago and Dr. Richard Bosworth who are all credible with a very articulate views agree this is a revolutionary concept that gives the artist a chance to explore new and interpretive vistas you will realize this as fact as well. During our presentation on September 18th Richard Bosworth will compare to a high end in comparison while hands on with the folks who attend. Science doesn't lie and we have the facts. When our prototype was tuned to 444, 4.7Hz higher than 440. After playing @ the 528 healing frequency this is what Richard Bosworth had to say:

My Impressions of The 528 Frequency

Initial reactions:

The sound and timbre were intoxicatingly alluring.
There was a feeling of well-being.
Serenity and calmness pervaded.
I felt very relaxed and restful.
There was less stress; a state of repose came over me.
My body and mind were more open to stimuli.
The experience put me in a trance.
There was also a mesmerizing effect.
The resulting effect was like having a power nap.
My whole being resonated a relaxed state of mind, both mentally and physically.
The endorphins were flowing throughout my body.
I was attracted to listening to the sound as well as producing it.
This instrument had an undeniably compelling quality.
After playing it, the little annoyances of life disappeared.
The feeling became ineffable and could not be put into words.
There was a lingering effect for at least a half hour afterwards.
My First Impressions On Playing These Intriguing Granite-Enhanced Pianos
By Richard Bosworth
General observations:

My first impressions were very subtle, yet powerful. It simply had a hypnotic effect. In this instance, the statement "music soothes the beast" fit exactly how I felt. After I played this instrument, my spirit was calm almost to the point of being reflective. It was as if I had been meditating and my soul was refreshed. A sense of universal, collective consciousness became a palpable moment for me.

I am beginning to realize that tuning to the 528 frequency is not only wonderful, but NECESSARY. Implementing this technique complemented by the granite bridges of a piano, has allowed me to experience a new realm of awareness. In fact, I earnestly seek out this quality and will not settle for anything less. The regular standard tunings along with the traditional wooden bridges are no longer satisfying; it is a rather irritating and frustrating scenario.

Anybody reading these thoughts here will probably think that I am a bit exaggerated in my perceptions. If so, I would encourage you to find out for yourself. Come, play this piano and see if what I am saying is true. Suspend your judgment for just a second and get ready for an extraordinary sonic adventure.

Allow me to leave you with this? Nothing can be more noble and worthwhile than to bring good will to one's fellow-man. I believe this 528 frequency and granite bridge combination has a healing effect that will have a more far-reaching outcome in terms of positive impact on humanity. To leave a legacy of this nature to posterity can only help to better the world in which we live. And the saga continues...
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/16/12 09:58 AM

2 thousandths of an inch might as well be 2 miles as far as energy transfer between materials is concerned Robert. Wood has a compressive quality where small irregularities like this would be negated with the downbearing of the wires and the compression that takes place.

Outside of this, I would be open minded in hearing the results. About a year ago I got a chance to hear a piano in person that has a crystal/glass soundboard and I was quite impressed. For some reason, even though they have been out for quite a few years now, it never caught on in a mainstream way. I think piano buyers often have deep roots in traditions and are a tough bunch to sway.
Posted by: Olek

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/16/12 10:05 AM

The bridge is the first filter, so any modification ther change the tone. Harder component seem to be giving a more efficient energy transfer, particularely in the high treble this can be an advantage, but I just suspect some relation may exist between the resiliency of the material and whose of the tensed wire.

I am open minded but I know what I want to hear, and read...

With time I have get pretty abrupt when deceived...
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/16/12 10:08 AM

Very true but, granite is a natural occurring mineral undaunted by man.The stone is quarried then I sculpt the stone to fit along with other techniques that makes the efficiency of the bridge far better than any wood bridge could ever be. When you hear the piano in person you will understand, they'll be more to follow. just because tradition has been the forefront of the majority of pianists doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.
Posted by: Olek

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/16/12 11:24 AM

The truth is that efficiency of energy transfer is probably not the only parameter. I heard of using metal plates too, Fazioly use a harder wood for bridge cap in the high treble, banging strong on the wire/top of the bridge as done by some hazardous techs harden the wood under and reinforce the tone(so one friend once explained me that it was "adding down bearing " wink ,

What a would think about is the mechanical properties of the material used, and the problem linking together a material that react to moisture (even minimally) and one that does not.

I have yet heard pianos with good solutions for one aspect of the tone, which where restricting the playability on another.

Complete understanding of the acoustics of the belly differs in its conclusions depending of the original family and region, so I can understand your love for a noble material, but including it in a so complicated assembly as a piano is certainly not easy.

Minerals are used to harden synthetic resins, sure they are hard and massive, how to take benefit from that in pianos is above my understanding, may be in a coating that would suffice.

For an example, I once used very hard epoxy to glue bridge pins ... more power, but less partials, and a "too square" tone...
I will listen, and stay away of any mystics about your idea...
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/16/12 01:13 PM

We have science fact from cymascope.com that shows all 10 partials present which mode lock opposed to the 4 other high quality pianos in the video comparisons. I can't figure out how to post it here but I have that on my Stonetone® Facebook page. Utilizing granite in the bridge eliminates signal loss and at the same time allows the whole entire bridge to transfer the string energy not only vertical on the bridge as a wood bridge does but horizontally throughout the entire bridge allowing the entire soundboard to produce than locally where the notes are played. Our treble is extremely resonant and thats why we had to fit 20 additional dampers on this 5'1" baby grand.. The piano will never dictate to the player when it is time to move from any treble notes since the treble is so resonant and layers of voices can be clearly distinguished.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/16/12 01:31 PM

Here is another well know Artists comment on Stonetone® technologies
THE JOURNEY IN THE 528 FREQUENCY WITH STONE-ENHANCED PIANOS: Piano Artist Kary Regragui
www.karymusic.com
What Comes Forward Upon First Touching These Fascinating Instruments: By Kary Regragui

The resonance allows a higher level of absorption by the listener.
It re-creates a deep meditative state because of the sensation of well-being and serenity.
The audience noticeably receives this feeling as well.
Communication of the musical message is easier to convey.
The signal is so clear because there is no audible distortion.
The sound is so pure and pleasing to the ears that the musical impact is felt more deeply.
The listener responds accordingly and is affected on a subtle therapeutic level.
The music can be felt at a cellular level within the body.
There is quite literally an awakening of inner feelings, which then triggers the right emotions to happen.
The body responds well to the frequencies generated by the sound.
More power goes through my fingers producing a clearer and purer signal.
Peace and harmony are generated by this balanced sound.
This technology allows me to become one with the instrument.
Beautiful sounds and harmonies emanating from this piano inspire the composer within.
It is such a warm and welcoming instrument to the point of being irresistible.
This is ideal for music therapy and explores new vistas on higher levels of awareness.
The Ying and the Yang are in motion, perfectly matched in harmony with each other.
Playing on a stone piano is the perfect mental massage for both the performer and listener.
Inner peace and well-being are greatly enhanced after playing and listening to a beautiful piece of music on a stone piano.
My personal reactions on playing the stone-enhanced pianos:
As a composer and performer, my travels have taken me worldwide playing some of the best instruments on the planet. As a result, I have witnessed the deeply moving effects of my performances on the public. This is self-evident because music, being a universal language, is cross-cultural; it depends on me as a skilled interpreter to bring out the message.

However, the true art and power of musical expression lie somewhere between actual sounding notes. What one does with all that time is to master technique, phrasing, intonation, dynamics, intentions, feelings and warmth. This, in turn, is what makes a musician stand out from the rest.

In the case of stone-enhanced pianos, all these artistic elements are more clearly pronounced because so much more power and control are given to the performer. Intertwining chords, phrasing and rhythms let me send the vibration of my music to specific chakras so that they can promote healing starting from the higher ones to the very lowest, thus encompassing the whole field (the ethereal body, the Aura). The human body is an energy center with thousands of electrical impulses happening every second within us so that they can deliver the messages to our cells for normal functioning. Even the simple task of walking involves so many muscles, brain signals and coordination that it would be too difficult for me to explain. However, I will say that it is my belief that musical sound waves do have a positive impact on the way our internal signals are working between cells.

With the stone-enhanced pianos, music has taken a quantum leap allowing the audience to “therapeutically” engage more personally with a deeper feeling and passion within just minutes. By performing on this unique instrument that has combined the stone bridge with the 528 frequency tuning, I can gently, but quickly, enter a sacred and serene space where my natural (intuitive) playing takes over in a commanding way. My performance, experience and feeling of the music bear witness to themselves, something that is rarely happening with regular wood bridge pianos.
Posted by: OperaTenor

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/16/12 03:23 PM

I would be interested to see some detailed photos of these bridges in various states of creation and installation.

I'd be concerned about the likelihood of the bridge fracturing, either due to climate changes or possible hidden flaws in the naturally-occurring granite.

I'd also be interested to hear a decent-quality audio recording. From what I heard on the YouTube clips, the bass sounded pretty brittle.
Posted by: Olek

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/16/12 04:05 PM

Yes there is some gain in "efficiency" but I am far from sure the playability is better, you are using the sustain pedal a lot, so the tone is not clearly heard.

But I like the warmness of the tone with a normal bridge, I am not even big fan of bridge agrafes. question of tone variability, probably.

The tone is lengthened for sure, (how much mass is added to the bridge ?)

What will happen to the stone with the vibes of the strings ? will the wire deform or will the granite deform ?

That make me think of those hardened capo, that where sending very high pitches.

Indeed your test piano is probably not the best piano to make such experiment.

What can make me understand what is the effect is notes played from ppp to FFF with different touch, with and without sustain pedal engaged.

There I cannot even hear what is the result, playing like a piano dealer with a lot of abuse of the pedal is not the way to make a demonstration to technicians. (I only listened to 2 videos indeed)

Best of luck with your idea, I would believe that if hardening the bridge more than it is done actually would be of some interest, it would have been done yet (but I possibly trust too much our friend piano builders !)
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/16/12 04:31 PM

OperaTenor,

At this juncture without compromising my intellectual property, pictures cannot be posted via internet until my patent pending matures early spring 2013.

The materials I select are according to consistent grain structure than multiple densities that could present fissures that would eventually crack and would not be candidates for this application while there are thousands of qualified densities to choose.

Unfortunately in person is the way to go to have a full perspective of what actually is happening. You tube compresses etc.. @ present this is all we have posted online for now. We haven't concentrated solely on recordings since the real opinions come from the actual playability while witnessing the performance in person.

Thank you for your response.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/16/12 04:53 PM

Hello Kamin,

The type of playability questions can be answered by Dr Richard Bosworth @ www.richardbosworth.org Richard would answer any of those type questions for you folks.

I doubled the Mass of the bridge which is visible in our press release in the January issue of the slippery rock gazette magazine. slipperyrockgazette.net/file/archive/0111/pdfs/Issue_25.htm

We have had no issues of any flaws with the strings of any kind. this prototype has been completed back 2010.

We purposely used this crude indonesian entry level baby grand 5'1" piano to prove the significant improvement.

Thank you.
Posted by: kpembrook

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/16/12 10:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Very true but, granite is a natural occurring mineral undaunted by man.The stone is quarried then I sculpt the stone to fit along with other techniques that makes the efficiency of the bridge far better than any wood bridge could ever be. When you hear the piano in person you will understand, they'll be more to follow. just because tradition has been the forefront of the majority of pianists doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.


No argument with what you are hearing. . . .

It may take years to really understand what is happening. The big problem with piano improvement ideas has been the thought that "we are just changing this one thing so everything else will remain the same while this particular factor is improved."

Normally there side-effects or gaps in understanding all the variables. Certainly the transmission speed of sound is faster through granite than wood. I'm not convinced that is the mechanism that is used for sound transfer -- particularly if the model of soundboard as a transducer is valid where the issue is getting the soundboard to move in compliance with the string.

Also, with the change in material is a significant change in mass. This will likely affect impedance -- no doubt for an improvement- - but nonetheless a factor.

Haven't seen what you are doing with side bearing on the bridge pins, but certainly that's a legitimate question as far a whether fracturing might be a part of the end-of-life symptoms. Not saying this necessarily matter -- if it lasts 75 years -- or even 50, who really cares?

I'm looking forward to seeing the piano when I'm in Chicago this weekend.
Posted by: Olek

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 04:19 AM

an optimized transmission of waves thru the lenght of the top of the bridge visibly make the soundboard react sooner, the multi layered bridge of Steinways is probably working in the same direction.

Keith, your question about waves thru the soundboard, or vibrations in the other plane, need an answer.

I suppose that both elements exist together one during the attack and the rest in the sustain, I will try to find more on the subject..
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 08:31 AM

Of all the posts I've read with some folks referring to the bridge as a filter is completely wrong. The bridge is the first contact to the initial attack from the string energy which the job of the bridge is to act as the optimum transducer taking as much of that energy to the soundboard with minimal or no signal loss. In this instance, wood is not the optimum choice for this function, this is why manufactures use different combinations of tone woods etc. to get optimum performance when granite is the ticket.

The algorithm of a piano is, Attack - Decay - Sustain - Release.
With a granite bridge in place the algorithm is, Attack - SUSTAIN - Decay - Release.

Wood bridges sustain the decayed sound and that has always been a problem with all types a pianos, especially in the treble registers more so in the last octave. Not any more.. I encourage anyone who has the opportunity to see and play this piano @ the pianoforte for your own curiosities since it will be there until february 1st 2013.
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 09:16 AM

What I find really strange in this thread, and with all due respect, very detrimental to a discussion of the technical merits of the granite bridge, is an apparently random mixture of
... science (e.g. transducer principles, partial envelope),
... pseudo-science (utilizing "stored energy of atoms in a crystalline matrix" for a faster response),
... new-age mysticism (chakras and healing frequencies being felt at cellular level) and
... downright gobbledygook.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 09:25 AM

Mark, You should stick to gardening...
Never argue with stupid people, they will bring you down to their level then beat you with experience...Mark Twain
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 10:44 AM

Right, then, off to the garden I am!

I'll leave you to it, with another Mark Twain quote:

To string incongruities and absurdities together in a wandering and sometimes purposeless way, and seem innocently unaware that they are absurdities, is the basis of the American art, if my position is correct...
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 11:18 AM

I think I'll wait and see whether the worlds top piano manufacturers adopt granite bridges before getting too excited! Now if someone could come up with water bridges ..... after all it's a well know fact that water transfers sound waves superbly wink

Think I'll join Mark in the garden too, we can enjoy talking to the plants smile
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 11:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo

I believe this 528 frequency and granite bridge combination has a healing effect that will have a more far-reaching outcome in terms of positive impact on humanity.


There unfortunately is not a single shred of any solid scientific evidence or any reliable study that proves this.


Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Mark, You should stick to gardening...
Never argue with stupid people, they will bring you down to their level then beat you with experience...Mark Twain


Even with gardening if you lean close to your plants and talk nicely to them, they will be exposed to higher levels of carbon dioxide from your breath. To some extent they will photosynthesize more efficiently because of it. They will get this same boost if you were to yell obcenities at them.

A smart person knows the role this plays in reality (photosynthesis), an ignorant person will believe it helps because of how you speak to the plant or what you say.

A person is not necessarily stupid because they don't choose believe what you believe.
Posted by: Olek

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 11:42 AM

I love decay. Verymuch. That is what I tune first...
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 11:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
I think I'll wait and see whether the worlds top piano manufacturers adopt granite bridges before getting too excited! Now if someone could come up with water bridges ..... after all it's a well know fact that water transfers sound waves superbly wink

Think I'll join Mark in the garden too, we can enjoy talking to the plants smile


Speed of sound in granite is 5950 m/sec. Its speed in water is about 1/4 this, (1497 m/sec). Granite however is only 92% as fast in sound conveyance as aluminum, 46% as fast as beryllium for example. Some glass, most steels and irons, titanium ect.. exibit the same speed as granite so I am wondering what properties granite has that would make it stand out the choice here in comparison? Glass can be easily molded, steel can be forged, stamped or machined. Granite and most stones on the other hand get a slight impact or cut/saw in the wrong way and will crack.
Posted by: Dave B

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 11:47 AM

Johnkie, I was listening to a system with liquid filled speaker cables just this weekend. They are amazing!
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 11:47 AM

Mark, Johnkie, Emmery,

A smart person listens to factual logic, and we do have factual science from cymascope.com as well as other sources in the private sector.

I can't post the results here but you can see them on my Stonetone facebook page for now until my website goes online.

Besides the science and the credible folks who have already noted this as a revolutionary concept I am here to divulge some aspects of what is to break into your industry once a manufacturer gets a hold of this.

Our presentation is the 1st made public so far.

Relax and enjoy what is to come don't be ignorant to the concept because you have minimal knowledge of stone in general and or the attributes based on the mineral composition and it's comparison to wood.

Seems your attitudes are more like the mushroom which they feed on **** and grow in the dark. Time to come out of the dark ages and do your home work to know really what your talking about. Sure isn't gardening.
Posted by: BDB

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 11:52 AM

I think it may be mass and rigidity. A massive, rigid bridge should have lots of inertia, which is why the attack gets lost, and it might stay in motion longer than a bridge that is less massive. But I agree that the choice of material seems rather arbitrary. I also think that the change in attack is detrimental to the sound. After all, one plays a lot more short notes on a piano than long ones, so if the balance is between an interesting attack and a slower decay, I would put the emphasis on the attack.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 11:55 AM

Emmery,

Stone is natural, PERIOD. every other mineral you mention is tweaked by a process... The process that granite has endured man cannot explain. Even the science sector has theories but thats all they are. There is no process that granite endures other than being quarried which doesn't affect the natural occuring process in which it was created. The magic lies there and yet to be explained but sure as the scientists get further with this they will have some type of explanation that can be explained in leman terms.
Posted by: Dave B

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 11:55 AM

Gee Robert, nothing like being full of yourself. But it's nice of you to take the time to let us know were about to enter into the "Stone age".

Like Mark Twain said, we will beat you with experience. Might be worth wasting some of your brain cells to 'temper' your approach; if you really want to sell this to the industry and the general public.

(just my 2 cents)
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 12:00 PM

I've only been researching for 12 yrs. on this concept, so I do have allot to share but not until my patent issues. Dave B relax this is a good thing for all artists for ALL stringed instruments. i am a journeyman in the stone industry as well as a musician so by having both perspectives I've developed Stonetone.

Thank you.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 12:00 PM

Bdb is right on target.
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 12:13 PM

As I've already said ....... I'll wait until respected piano manufacturers adopt new techniques and materials. Too many times have I hears of brilliant new ideas and concepts ... most of which simply vanish into obscurity.

I really don't see any need for rudeness Robert ..... you have your views and others are perfectly entitled to hold their own that may differ. From what I see so far, you are merely promoting yourself and name calling other technicians that have every right to doubt any amazing breakthroughs in piano technology.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 12:16 PM

Interesting. Reminds me of that glass soundboard we saw before

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr4gd7JWSzs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AAocXTP65I

On these recordings, this approach sounds not balanced to me. Indeed the treble sings a lot. But the bass is almost totally lacking. Even the lower tenor is already lacking power IMHO.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 12:41 PM

Johnkie pay attention here !! remember this comment from your friend that you agreed with?
"downright gobbledygook" you call that an opinion? The truths I've shared are Fact not what mark calls "downright gobbledygook" now you see when folks get sarcastic the same can return so I ask "do you need a tissue"?
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 12:45 PM

Wouter,

You tube really isn't the proper place to have a true judgement and has no comparison rather than in person but for now this is all we have at the moment.

I have a 1963 9' concert grand 2/3 way completed, once this is done by Christmas this should really tell us allot by doing a better quality grand than the crude story & clark.
Posted by: mariotto

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 02:23 PM

It is always so, the new is very often viewed with the suspicion especialy when it comes to piano industry. I personaly have a great deal of respect for exploring and bringing new ideas. But, as a pianist I can say that the sound on the recording does not convince me at all, it is rather impoverishement of the sound than enrichment. Yes, there is better projection, initial attac seems to be better, but in the end I cannot see how this can be felt through the finger. I do not belive there is the dept under the fingers in which a pianist can explore various colors and types of sound. I think every pianist knows that feeling. Many of new pianos these days are a technology mastered to the last detail, with a lot of "improvements" that, viewed from the technical point of view should bring a lot, but in the end, when a pianist sits on the piano, the depht does not exist, the magic does not exist, the piano is simply grey in color. So," Stone tone" to me as a musician sounds from the beginning a little bit odd, we actually try to avoid a type of "stone tone"... But, the concept of the piano tone nowdays changed a lot, so, who knows...maybe it is a future... I dont know, maybe I am strange for that, but I think I can hear the wood in the piano tone and the way the tone travels through he whole piano, to me, wood gives the nobility in the tone... Of course everyone has his image in the head of the tone projection, something like singers, you could be amased what kind of pictures do they have in head when it comes to the descreibing of their way...
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 03:27 PM

Very kind of you to offer a tissue, but no thank you, and sorry if you feel that I'm not paying attention. You no doubt are very passionate about your breakthrough, where as I am not. I have tuned and serviced too many fine quality pianos during my career to have need to worry unduly about issues of lacking sound quality and the need for any radical changes in designs. If something turns out to improve performance and quality of tone, great ... but it would tend to have to prove itself over time before being readily accepted.

You say your granite bridge changes the ADSR to ASDR and in so doing, requires more treble dampers to counter the additional sustain .... I wouldn't view that as an improvement at all ... more an evolution to a completely different instrument. Part of the very soul of a pianoforte is the essence of initial attack,and decay. Altering the relationship of sustain over and above the normal ratio between attack and decay is in effect, changing it more to properties more suited to that of an organ.
Posted by: Phil D

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 03:38 PM

I like the sound of the claire da lune on that little grand. Not a very good recording, however, which is a shame. I think you've been a bit too quick to start promoting this - you're not able to show any decent evidence to support your claims, so you seem to be relying on a lot of conjecture, and attacking anyone who is sceptical.

Now you might be convinced of the healing powers of the Earth Frequency 528Hz. But I'd advise strongly against wrapping that up with your promotion of this product. To convince the industry you will have to convince the hardcore sceptics, and nothing turns off a sceptic like hearing how some arbitrary change of tuning can create magical results. This makes Kary Regragui's review practically worthless - all it convinces me of is that he has an unscientific mind.

I've also looked for your facebook page and have been unable to find it, as I was interested in the 'science' that you say Cymascope have done for you. But looking at Cymascope's website, it looks like they are just the producers of a pretty way to visualise sound, a new type of oscilloscope. And as I can't find the images or what have you that they've produced, then there's no way to know if this is going to be useful.

Please bear in mind that to call something 'science' you are making certain claims. You are claiming that you have conducted experiments that are as objective as possible to test your hypothesis that granite bridges are better. You have gathered evidence that support your hypothesis, from repeatable experiments. And although of course this is a commercial venture and so you have patents to protect, it should be possible for outsiders to verify your experimental data.

Until you can support your claims with some of the background science, none of us can verify what you are saying, so it is purely conjecture. No matter how much you say it is science, until the evidence is there, for all intents and purposes to everyone except you, it is not. It is mysterious and new, there are many claims made, but that is it.

I'm looking forward to hearing what Keith Akins has to say after he has seen the piano.

I, like many others have said, will reserve judgement until a real comparison can be made. The next retrofit you do, you should record the piano before it is done and after, using high quality recording equipment. And all other parts of the piano should stay the same. Then a direct comparison can be made, and your claims will be held up to proper scrutiny.

Even better - keep two pianos side by side, identical apart from the bridge smile (expensive I know!)

All the best to you though.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 03:53 PM

The thing that I notice most in this thread is that the the "pitch man" is insulting the very people he is trying to pitch to.

Not the most effective marketing technique.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 05:19 PM

Take care folks, I am done here and defiantly don't need your rhetoric.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 05:23 PM

You want science???? email ( John stuart reid) owner of www.cymascope.com and mention Stonetone® he will clarify that of all the pianos he has tested our our little prototype had by far the best looking partials he has ever seen.
Posted by: Phil D

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 06:48 PM

Oh well. What do you think guys - six months to market? A year?

With that attitude I'm sure it won't take long...
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 07:26 PM

Wouldn't be at all surprised to see the first examples being "test driven" at the Hard Rock Cafes Phil wink
Posted by: adamp88

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 07:30 PM

Looking forward to hearing and seeing it in person!

Edit: I didn't read the rest of the thread before posting. I have to say I find the tone taken towards skeptics to be... unfortunate, and more than a bit disappointing.
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 09:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
....Dave B relax this is a good thing for all artists for ALL stringed instruments. i am a journeyman in the stone industry as well as a musician so by having both perspectives I've developed Stonetone.

Thank you.


I'm sure the violinists will be fighting to the front of the line to try their bows out on a 60 lb violin.

Robert, the idea is interesting enough for me to want to hear a piano with the granite bridge, if I come across one. As others here and elswhere have found with unique tunings (eg.), recorded samples don't often offer full justice for the listener to hear subtle and/or unique differences.

If it doesn't catch on in a big way, don't be alarmed...you can always find a market in California...just tell them no condors were used in the testing of it, the granite is fully organic, pesticide free... and throw in a bio feedback system with a free tie dyed toga and you'll be set.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 10:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
this 528 frequency and granite bridge combination has a healing effect that will have a more far-reaching outcome in terms of positive impact on humanity.
Don't the strings break when you tune more than a m3 up?

Kees
Posted by: BDB

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 10:33 PM

And has that statement been approved by the Food and Drug Administration?
Posted by: Dave B

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/17/12 11:22 PM

A very interesting treble quality that is in direct contradiction to the 'woody' sound (feel) that Steinway claims is preferred by their surveyed pianist.
Posted by: Withindale

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/18/12 02:17 AM

Originally Posted By: adamp88
Looking forward to hearing and seeing it in person!

Edit: I didn't read the rest of the thread before posting. I have to say I find the tone taken towards skeptics to be... unfortunate, and more than a bit disappointing.

We are looking forward to your reading your reactions to the piano. How different does it sound from the YouTube videos mentioned earlier in this thread?

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFmEByS9Z0w&feature=share&list=ULPFmEByS9Z0w

This is the most recent link since we installed the 20 additional dampers.
in comparison to a Fazoli 6'3 Grand..
Posted by: Supply

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/18/12 02:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Take care folks, I am done here and defiantly don't need your rhetoric.

Do you mean definitely?
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/18/12 03:54 AM

[irony on]
Quickly popping in from the garden, where I had some great fun making mudcakes with Johnkie.
[irony off]

Just for the record:

I am absolutely fascinated by the concept of alternative materials for piano components, and how they influence touch and tone. I am even more interested in a scientific exploration of these things. After all, this thread was titled "new engineering concepts on piano sound production". I was immediately drawn to it.

But chakras, healing frequencies, cellular experiences and the likes have nothing to do with scientific and engineering concepts. So I called them out! That's not rhetoric, it's making a much-needed distinction between science and non-science. I might not be a trained piano technician, but I'm a trained scientist.

Robert, if you claim to be talking in scientific and engineering terms, but post all sorts of non-science, then you must be prepared to be called out! Amongst scientists, such robust discussion is absolutely normal, because we are passionate about cutting through the chase and getting to the real science.

Back to the garden...
Posted by: David Jenson

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/18/12 07:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Supply
Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Take care folks, I am done here and defiantly don't need your rhetoric.

Do you mean definitely?
Yea, I noticed that too, and was puzzled until I recalled some butchering my spell-checker has suggested in the past. Still ... there has been a little on the order of defiance in the OPs posts, so the mistake may have some tangential merit.

What I found curious was the lack of pictures of the stone bridge.
Posted by: Olek

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/18/12 07:47 AM



The playability ... locates more there in the beginning of the tone, for a piano anyway.

How the pianists plays with the attack quality is big part of the nuances. A long sustain is indeed a plus, but the name that strikes me in piano tone is articulation.
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/18/12 08:35 AM

Granite weighs a lot too but, as John mentioned which was one of my first thoughts, all we see are two pictures of pianos but no pictures of granite bridges...
Posted by: Withindale

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/18/12 08:44 AM

Kamin, are the two plots from the pianos in Robert Clair de Lune YouTube movie?
Posted by: Olek

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/18/12 08:53 AM

no sorry those are only one note, but we see the 2 canals of the stereo, I should have said what is it...

one need an isolated note (without sustain pedal) to plot it, not easy in a musical record
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/18/12 08:58 AM

Originally Posted By: David Jenson

...What I found curious was the lack of pictures of the stone bridge.


Most likely because it isn't patent(pending) protected, or the masonry tool kits for the techs have not been compiled yet.

Even so, I suspect some pseudo engineer with a last name similar to the sound a dropped fork makes already has visions of the new and improved Mark 2 Glanite Bridge system in the works.
Posted by: Withindale

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/18/12 09:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
... one need an isolated note (without sustain pedal) to plot it, not easy in a musical record

Yes, of course. Your two plots make the point very well. BDB said something similar. Sound's like the ring of hammer and chisel to me!
Posted by: wouter79

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/18/12 11:46 AM

>You tube really isn't the proper place to have a true judgement and has no comparison rather than in person but for now this is all we have at the moment.

Robert,

Maybe, then your announcement and posting of the videos was a bit premature. These videos may pop up for the coming years if you search on your technology, and thus people may reject the actual sound of your invention based on these videos for years to come.

I recommend getting a really good audio engineer that uses dead flat response mics with the piano in a good acoustic environment. And reports very careful which mics and which environment was used so that people can put the recording in the right perspective.

Without a good recording, I guess you're not going to convince people even to come to hear the real thing.
Posted by: David Jenson

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/19/12 07:57 AM

My guess is that the original poster has a real product, but the lack of pictures of the granite bridge, bits of new-age pseudo-science, and the ease with which sound files can be modified has produced some very legitimate questioning and the slight hint of a spoof.
Posted by: beethoven986

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/19/12 04:22 PM

Originally Posted By: David Jenson
My guess is that the original poster has a real product, but the lack of pictures of the granite bridge, bits of new-age pseudo-science, and the ease with which sound files can be modified has produced some very legitimate questioning and the slight hint of a spoof.


It is real. I first saw this piano a few weeks ago, and again last night at the Chicago PTG meeting. In terms of what it sounds like, one could describe it as Phoenix bridge agraffes on steroids. The sustain is long, and the tone is clear. In my opinion, it improved the sound of the piano.

That being said, I have concerns:

Serviceability: the bridge pins are epoxied into the granite, so how does one replace the bridge pins when they inevitably deteriorate?

Workmanship quality: I thought the bridge pinning looked sloppy, partly due to the fact that the bridge pins are inserted vertically and then bent. Additionally, the added dampers looked sloppily done. These are things that would need improvement before they're put in a high-end piano. The bridge notching looked good, though.

Practicality: I don't see how the work required to do this is worth the effort (more on this later).

Longevity: Others at the meeting expressed concerns about how the granite and soundboard will interact as the soundboard changes over time.


As I see it, there are two reasons why the bridge changes the sound of the piano: it's a more efficient termination than wood is, and it has a lot more mass than wood.

As many on here know, there are some small-scale rebuilders/builders of pianos who use hardened termination points and/or ebony capped bridges. This makes the piano sound more clear.

There is also the mass issue. Granite has a lot more mass than wood. By using granite as a bridge, they are essentially mass-loading the soundboard, which raises its mechanical impedance, slows the transfer of energy from strings to soundboard, and thus lengthens sustain. The bass bridge, unlike the treble, is not solid granite; it is a wood bridge with a granite cap. Why? A full granite bass bridge would raise the impedance too much in that area of the soundboard and kill the tone. This is why some incorporate floating bridges or thin the board in the bass area.

With this in mind, I'm confident that one could produce the same effects with a traditional bridge (without all the fuss of granite) by mass loading the soundboard with brass weights or using auxiliary riblets, and using more efficient terminations (i.e. bridge agraffes, etc.). There is nothing magical about granite.

Posted by: OperaTenor

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/19/12 05:37 PM

Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: Supply
Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Take care folks, I am done here and defiantly don't need your rhetoric.

Do you mean definitely?
Yea, I noticed that too, and was puzzled until I recalled some butchering my spell-checker has suggested in the past. Still ... there has been a little on the order of defiance in the OPs posts, so the mistake may have some tangential merit.

What I found curious was the lack of pictures of the stone bridge.


Mr. Di Santo is obviously ESL, hence the difficulty in communicating.

Yeah, no photos because someone might steal his revolutionary idea. Please...

Crummy-quality YouTube recordings, poorly set up, using Story & Clarks as test beds, citing mysticism for science, and then the insulting and petulance. yeah, this guy's going far...

Posted by: OperaTenor

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/19/12 05:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: David Jenson

...What I found curious was the lack of pictures of the stone bridge.


Most likely because it isn't patent(pending) protected, or the masonry tool kits for the techs have not been compiled yet.

Even so, I suspect some pseudo engineer with a last name similar to the sound a dropped fork makes already has visions of the new and improved Mark 2 Glanite Bridge system in the works.


I didn't know a fork made a "Fandrich" sound when dropped!

laugh
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 03:19 AM

B986,

Many thanks for your perspective. It made for interesting reading.
Posted by: Withindale

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 05:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
B986,

Many thanks for your perspective. It made for interesting reading.


+1
Posted by: Del

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 10:50 AM

Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: David Jenson

...What I found curious was the lack of pictures of the stone bridge.


Most likely because it isn't patent(pending) protected, or the masonry tool kits for the techs have not been compiled yet.

Even so, I suspect some pseudo engineer with a last name similar to the sound a dropped fork makes already has visions of the new and improved Mark 2 Glanite Bridge system in the works.


I didn't know a fork made a "Fandrich" sound when dropped!

laugh

I think I've just been insulted--but I'm not sure why...?

ddf
Posted by: Roger Ransom

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 11:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
To the folks who are pros,technicians, masters in there own right etc.. have critical views on incorporating granite and other types a stone into the design of a piano is unorthodox but until you hear one in person as the PTG did and Thomas Zoells owner of the Pianoforte Chicago and Dr. Richard Bosworth who are all credible with a very articulate views agree this is a revolutionary concept that gives the artist a chance to explore new and interpretive vistas you will realize this as fact as well. During our presentation on September 18th Richard Bosworth will compare to a high end in comparison while hands on with the folks who attend. Science doesn't lie and we have the facts. When our prototype was tuned to 444, 4.7Hz higher than 440. After playing @ the 528 healing frequency this is what Richard Bosworth had to say:

My Impressions of The 528 Frequency

Initial reactions:

The sound and timbre were intoxicatingly alluring.
There was a feeling of well-being.
Serenity and calmness pervaded.
I felt very relaxed and restful.
There was less stress; a state of repose came over me.
My body and mind were more open to stimuli.
The experience put me in a trance.
There was also a mesmerizing effect.
The resulting effect was like having a power nap.
My whole being resonated a relaxed state of mind, both mentally and physically.
The endorphins were flowing throughout my body.
I was attracted to listening to the sound as well as producing it.
This instrument had an undeniably compelling quality.
After playing it, the little annoyances of life disappeared.
The feeling became ineffable and could not be put into words.
There was a lingering effect for at least a half hour afterwards.
My First Impressions On Playing These Intriguing Granite-Enhanced Pianos
By Richard Bosworth
General observations:

My first impressions were very subtle, yet powerful. It simply had a hypnotic effect. In this instance, the statement "music soothes the beast" fit exactly how I felt. After I played this instrument, my spirit was calm almost to the point of being reflective. It was as if I had been meditating and my soul was refreshed. A sense of universal, collective consciousness became a palpable moment for me.

I am beginning to realize that tuning to the 528 frequency is not only wonderful, but NECESSARY. Implementing this technique complemented by the granite bridges of a piano, has allowed me to experience a new realm of awareness. In fact, I earnestly seek out this quality and will not settle for anything less. The regular standard tunings along with the traditional wooden bridges are no longer satisfying; it is a rather irritating and frustrating scenario.

Anybody reading these thoughts here will probably think that I am a bit exaggerated in my perceptions. If so, I would encourage you to find out for yourself. Come, play this piano and see if what I am saying is true. Suspend your judgment for just a second and get ready for an extraordinary sonic adventure.

Allow me to leave you with this? Nothing can be more noble and worthwhile than to bring good will to one's fellow-man. I believe this 528 frequency and granite bridge combination has a healing effect that will have a more far-reaching outcome in terms of positive impact on humanity. To leave a legacy of this nature to posterity can only help to better the world in which we live. And the saga continues...


Now, this is indeed Gobbledegook! Give me a break!
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 12:38 PM

No worries Del, the comment had nothing to do with you and I'm not sure why Opera Tenor made that connection. Dropped forks typically make a "png, ting,ding,tang,kang,pung" type of sound.
Posted by: Roy123

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 12:46 PM

All the junk science, pseudoscience, and new age mysticism in support of the granite bridge bring my BS detectors to full alert. What's next in the world of pianos--pyramid power??? As it turns out, granite is not a very good conductor of sound--it is very lossy, which is one of the reasons it is used in high-precision machinery, where vibrations are a problem, and a material that damps them out is very desirable.

Hold a bar of steel or aluminum so they can vibrate freely, and when given a rap, they will ring nicely--think of a tuning fork. If you do the same with granite, it will simply produce a thunk. Actually, the density and modulus of granite are very close to that of aluminum. Granite is harder, but the only place in which hardness is of particular importance is at the string contact, and various bridge agraffes that use steel at the string interface have addressed this issue. Will the granite bridge sound different? Sure, it is heavier and stiffer than wood--so are lots of other materials. Yawn...
Posted by: BDB

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 12:52 PM

My first thought is that if this is desirable, which I doubt, concrete should work just as well, and it could be molded, rather than carved, which would be cheaper.
Posted by: Withindale

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 01:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Roy123
... granite is not a very good conductor of sound ...

Do bridges conduct sound or simply cause soundboards to move with the strings?
Posted by: Roy123

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 01:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: Roy123
... granite is not a very good conductor of sound ...

Do bridges conduct sound or simply cause soundboards to move with the strings?


Good point--one might argue that bridges are short enough (distance from string to soundboard) that all one really needs is a material with adequate stiffness and low enough loss.

My comment about granite being not such a good conductor of sound was made only because of the claims that were made by the inventor.
Posted by: Withindale

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 01:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Roy123
My comment about granite being not such a good conductor of sound was made only because of the claims that were made by the inventor.

Quite so!
Posted by: Olek

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 01:15 PM

Granite tunes to the earth frequency, that is the fundamentals of that physics probably...

May be granite bridge will protect us against cancers caused by the Monsanto based corn that we eat every day, and that killed half of the rats that where eating them for 2 years ...

Lets go to esoteric talk ...
Posted by: Del

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 01:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: Roy123
... granite is not a very good conductor of sound ...

Do bridges conduct sound or simply cause soundboards to move with the strings?

It is the function of the bridge to conduct energy from the vibrating strings to the soundboard.

ddf
Posted by: Withindale

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 03:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Del
It is the function of the bridge to conduct energy from the vibrating strings to the soundboard.


Yes, but how?

When we were kids we used to attach two tin cans to the ends of a length of string and use them, with the string pulled tight, as a primitive telephone transmitter and receiver.

Later on we messed around with loudspeakers where the diaphragms move with the coils.

Coming back to pianos, Gabriel Weinreich showed how the oscillations of unisons couple through the bridge while you, Del, recently explained how the length of the backscale affects the movement of the bridge soundboard.

In essence, does the bridge conduct energy like that string, or does the soundboard and bridge assembly vibrate like a loudspeaker, or is something else at play, or a combination?
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 04:29 PM

Speed of sound in wood across the grain is about 1/3-1/5 that of going with the grain. With the application of a wood bridge there will be some losses due to grain orientation we need to carve it. I believe this is where a material that has uniform sound transmission qualities in every direction would be more suitable than wood which has limitations in this respect.
Posted by: Del

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: Del
It is the function of the bridge to conduct energy from the vibrating strings to the soundboard.

Yes, but how? When we were kids we used to attach two tin cans to the ends of a length of string and use them, with the string pulled tight, as a primitive telephone transmitter and receiver. Later on we messed around with loudspeakers where the diaphragms move with the coils.

Coming back to pianos, Gabriel Weinreich showed how the oscillations of unisons couple through the bridge while you, Del, recently explained how the length of the backscale affects the movement of the bridge soundboard.

In essence, does the bridge conduct energy like that string, or does the soundboard and bridge assembly vibrate like a loudspeaker, or is something else at play, or a combination?

(I’ve been following this topic with some interest. It’s been around before: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1419415/Searchpage/1/Main/101923/Words/Di+Santo/Search/true/Re:%20Stone%20Tone%20%28Granite%29%20piano.html#Post1419415
I wasn’t really planning on commenting on this topic but since I’ve kind of allowed myself to be drawn in….)

The soundboard functions something like a loudspeaker diaphragm. The energy source is the vibrating strings; their energy is coupled through the bridge to the soundboard panel. Look underneath your piano and observe the ends of the ribs; this is the soundboard’s analog to the loudspeakers cone surround. It’s not an exact analogy but it’s close.

Everything attached to the system affects how it vibrates. The string plane—due to its stiffness and the fact that it is usually set up to actually press down against the bridge—impedes its otherwise free motion. That is, the soundboard’s vibrating characteristics are different when the strings are not attached than they are after the strings are installed.

The mass of the bridge affects how the soundboard system vibrates; as does—though to a much lesser degree—its stiffness.

In this case—i.e., the granite bridge—the mass of the bridges is being increased and the termination efficiency of the speaking (vibrating) strings is being changed. The stiffness of the bridges is also being changed but various tests have shown that, beyond a certain point, this has relatively little to do with soundboard performance.

I’ll pass on the claim that “Utilizing the stored energy within the atoms of the crystalline matrix of the stone provides a faster response and even clear sound with minimal to no percussiveness.” I’ll also pass on the claims of “healing” attached to tuning the piano to a pitch of A=444 Hz. These claims have been made for ages with no scientific validation that I am aware of.

In all variations made to the traditional piano archetype the laws of physics must still prevail; adding mass to the soundboard system—in this case via the bridge—increases the mechanical impedance of the system. This alters the energy transfer rate from the strings to the soundboard assembly with the result that initial attack volume is reduced and the rate of decay is reduced which we translate into increased sustain.

Increasing the termination efficiency will also alter the energy mix that will be transferred from the strings to the soundboard assembly but the direct effect is a little less clear. A lot of testing would have to be done to determine just what is happening as a direct result of the change in termination efficiency. In theory a less lossy termination should transfer more high partial energy to the system but the more massive bridge is less able to respond so I don’t really know what the ultimate response would be. I’d want to reduce the number of variables and measure and compare.

Basically I agree with B’986: the same result can be obtained in other, probably less cumbersome, ways. (I’m not a stonemason so I really have no idea how many hours it takes to produce one of these bridges. It’s probably longer than the few minutes it takes to produce a traditional wood bridge, though.) While I generally encourage innovative people to explore their ideas and dreams I can say with reasonable certainty that this one will never reach large-scale, or even limited-scale, production. Given some development it might be producible on a custom, more-or-less one-off basis but the technologies necessary to cut and process stone to make piano bridges are not going to make it to the factory floor. My recommendation for a market would be to fit these bridges to custom-remanufactured or instruments and market the difference. In the end I suspect it will achieve about the same level of market penetration as have the pianos utilizing glass soundboards.

ddf
Posted by: OperaTenor

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/20/12 06:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Del
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: David Jenson

...What I found curious was the lack of pictures of the stone bridge.


Most likely because it isn't patent(pending) protected, or the masonry tool kits for the techs have not been compiled yet.

Even so, I suspect some pseudo engineer with a last name similar to the sound a dropped fork makes already has visions of the new and improved Mark 2 Glanite Bridge system in the works.


I didn't know a fork made a "Fandrich" sound when dropped!

laugh

I think I've just been insulted--but I'm not sure why...?

ddf


Just a bad joke to get your attention...
Posted by: Olek

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/21/12 04:47 AM

Mariosa said some interesting thing in that regard : he can "hear/feel" the speed of tone going thru the wood in the soundboard/bridge assembly./

I also have that sensation I even can imagine that when listening to a recording.

I suggest that we need some damping at the bridge level so the energy is not reflected too fast. When we hear the whisles created by improper string mating it is a very short wave reflected from the hammer to the agrafe because the hammer cannot damp it.

I suspect a similar process may happen within the bridge himself adding that high pitched components in the tone attack that oblige the pianist to delay it with the sustain pedal, as i seem to notice on the video samples (I admit the more sonorous instrument, but I hear an use of the sustain pedal that is twice on the stone bridged piano than on the "normal" grand)

As often heard, "more is not always better, " etc...
The wire by itself is very certainly prone to produce a lot of parasitic tone in regard of its fixations and terminations, we dont have the musical use for, I often have noticed in "optimized' instruments how too much high pitched tones where present at any level of dynamics, and that, at last is not usual to my ears, nor I am sure it is advantageous.


Posted by: Roy123

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/21/12 07:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Speed of sound in wood across the grain is about 1/3-1/5 that of going with the grain. With the application of a wood bridge there will be some losses due to grain orientation we need to carve it. I believe this is where a material that has uniform sound transmission qualities in every direction would be more suitable than wood which has limitations in this respect.


The speed of sound through the bridge is of no particular interest or importance. The bridge is short, string to board. There is no appreciable time delay. Additionally, time delay does not correlate with loss. Materials and arrangements with large time delay can have low loss, and vice versa.

The bridge mostly needs to be stiff enough so that forces due to string motions can be transferred to the soundboard panel with little to no loss. Consider a traditional bridge in which the string bears both on steel pins and directly on the wooden surface of the bridge itself. The surface area of the string where it is in contact with the wood is very small. If there is any compression of the wood in the bridge it will occur right at the contact point. If adequate stiffness is of any concern, one need only use some time of bridge agraffe in which the string's forces are spread out over a larger area of the bridge.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/24/12 07:18 AM

To all who attended,

Special thanks goes out to Thomas Zoells for organizing our event, and to all the members of the PTG and others that attended our presentation @ the Pianoforte Chicago.

Thank you for your interest in Stonetone®. We look forward to meeting you all again on this exciting journey.
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/24/12 11:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
To all who attended,

Special thanks goes out to Thomas Zoells for organizing our event, and to all the members of the PTG and others that attended our presentation @ the Pianoforte Chicago.

Thank you for your interest in Stonetone®. We look forward to meeting you all again on this exciting journey.



So what was the verdict Robert? How did people respond to the stonebridge experience. Was there some comparative way they could assess the change?

I remember a presentation done at a piano dealers a few years back where he was introducing a new line of vertical pianos which had an open soundboard at the bottom. Several of us techs stood behind a partition as someone went around playing on about 7-8 different pianos and we tried to match what we heard with the pianos listed on a checklist. Most of us were fairly impressed with the piano and it was a really good way to honestly showcase it to us.
Posted by: Bob Newbie

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/24/12 12:22 PM

My slotted peghead classical guitar produces more "sustain' than my steel string "f" hole archtop
"but" when I attach a small brass "c" clamp to the archtop headstock sustain is dramatically increased
which rivals the classical guitar with open headstock..it would be interesting to see a clamp made of
granite if it would have the same or greater sustain than the brass "C" clamp.. smile
Posted by: Roy123

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/24/12 03:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Bob Newbie
My slotted peghead classical guitar produces more "sustain' than my steel string "f" hole archtop
"but" when I attach a small brass "c" clamp to the archtop headstock sustain is dramatically increased
which rivals the classical guitar with open headstock..it would be interesting to see a clamp made of
granite if it would have the same or greater sustain than the brass "C" clamp.. smile


Given the small clamping area of the c-clamp, one would have to assume that you were adding mass, not stiffness to the headstock. The density of brass is over 3 times that of granite.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/24/12 07:48 PM

Emmery,

Our presentation started @ 7 p.m. and ended @ 9:00 p.m. The questions the folks asked were answered in correlation to Dr. Richard Bosworths performance. I also displayed pictures for reference that showed the (patented) internal apparatus that works in conjunction with the facade of the guitars I've produced that had a direct relationship to the bridge pins interacting to the pianos granite bridge.

There were no shortage of questions while every inquiry had several answers for each question directly explaining how, why, and when..

45 minutes before the end of our presentation folks played our prototype piano to get a true perspective while the questions continued as they witnessed several other folks playing at the same time.

The wood bridge comparison piano was a handmade 7' Shigeru Kawai.

This presentation was thorough and informative from a manufacturing level to restoration issues.

There was a full room of folks that left with a plethora of informative facts of the Stonetone® Technologies.

Once this 9' Baldwin is completed, we'll have a better result since were working with a much better quality piano.
Posted by: adamp88

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/25/12 03:42 PM

With due respect, I don't know that I'd agree with the "thorough" nature of the presentation. In fact, my biggest take away from the presentation was disappointment that there wasn't more thorough scientific understanding behind the product and how it affects the piano. Nearly all scientific inquiry was referred back to comments made by two NASA scientists who were not present and who stated (in quotes provided to us here in this thread) that they themselves were not familiar with the physics of the piano. Several questions received answers that either didn't address the actual question or did so only tangentially. I would go so far as to say most technical questions were left, at best, only partially answered due to a lack of technical knowledge of the piano.

The result of the granite bridge is indeed a marked improvement in sustain (at the cost of tone quality, in my opinion), but the granite itself is incidental after the weight it provides, as any bridge of equal weight would offer similar if not identical results. That granite is "of the earth" offers no benefit in a piano bridge, and plenty of negatives when it comes to mass production and long term care of a piano.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/25/12 07:31 PM

Adam,

You were confused it seems and weren't part of the folks who played the piano afterwards or conversed with Richard Bosworth on any of the performance particulars that were answered pertained to restoration issues etc. like the other folks did. As stated during the presentation, our patent pending application is pending until early spring 2013 so limited information couldn't be divulged @ this time. Stonetone® is here to stay in lieu of any naysayers. Opinions are just that so your entitled to yours and thank you for attending. The piano speaks for itself.
Posted by: adamp88

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 03:58 PM

Robert,

Actually I did play the piano afterwards. And I'll probably drop by Pianoforte soon to try it again with less background noise present. Again, I readily agree to the marked improvement in sustain. I do have some concerns about how it affects the overall tone and character of the piano's sound, which is why I'd like to try it again in a quieter setting. I remain unconvinced as to the suitability (chiefly in terms of ease of production, service, and long-term care) of granite for bridge making. Hopefully receiving your patent will allow you to speak directly and at greater length to those concerns.

And no, I wasn't confused. To clarify my earlier comments about questions being answered insufficiently, "it's practically fused to the board" doesn't at all answer the question "what happens in 20 years when the board has changed shape but the bridge hasn't?" "It's not that bad... but it's $30K a slab" doesn't really answer the question of "how practical is this for a mass production application?" (or perhaps it does but not in the way you'd hoped to). And as for my concerns with technical knowledge of the piano, sufficient technical knowledge of the soundboard's structure and function should have been enough to dissuade any further research into granite ribs.

Lastly, I humbly suggest that you find another way of interacting with skeptics than condescension and insults (at least on a message board). If your product is going to have a future in pianos, you're going to need the support of the technical community behind it, and insulting the skeptics (which at this point includes the vast majority of piano technicians) isn't going to help your cause.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 07:11 PM

You may be too sensitive for this discussion Adam..
Thanks for the laugh, and to those sensitive folks who aren't able to conduct constructive criticism ( which happens) don't bother, because I don't have time to respond to ignorance.
30k for a slab is not what was said.
What was said was that we bonded 2 medias together to acquire the mass needed while we felt using a single mass of 3" thickness would be better but only if we were to do 6 or more bridges would this be applicable and justify the cost.
I think you may need to play the piano many more times to get a grip on really what is happening since Thomas Zoells and Dr. Richard Bosworth both agree this is a revolutionary concept that needs refinement which also was stated during the presentation..
Posted by: accordeur

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 07:43 PM

Calling other posters ignorant? Maybe you should leave public relations in your company to others Mr Di Santo.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 08:07 PM

Ignorance is Bliss Jean don't take it personally, pay attention and you may learn something here.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 08:09 PM

The bridge ensures a tight connection and optimal transmission of sound vibrations (ENERGY) between the strings and the soundboard.

DURING OUR PRESENTATION and since I have understood the function of the bridge in a piano everyone I have talked with on this discussion calls the bridge everything other than what it actually is. Correct term " Transducer " see below of common descriptions and which one fits this application using stone..





definition of a conductor:

A material or element that allows free movement of electrons and therefore allows easy flow of electricity. Most conductors are metals.




definition of transmitter: 1. a person who transmits
1. a thing that transmits; specif.,
a. the part of a telegraphic instrument by which messages are sent
b. the part of a telephone, behind or including the mouthpiece, that converts speech sound into electric impulses for transmission
c. the apparatus that generates radio waves, modulates their amplitude or frequency, and transmits them by means of an antenna



Definition of a transducer: A substance or device, such as a piezoelectric crystal, microphone, or photoelectric cell, that converts input energy of one form into output energy of another.



Definition of a pressurized transducer: 1) What is a pressure transducer? A pressure transducer is a transducer that converts pressure into an analog electrical signal.

2)Pressure applied to the pressure transducer produces a deflection of the diaphragm which introduces strain. The strain will produce an electrical resistance change proportional to the pressure.

3)
Most pressure transducers feature an accuracy of High stability and high accuracy. pressure transducers can offer errors as low as 0.05% of full scale. Although more expensive than general purpose transducers, they may be the only option if high precision is required.
Posted by: beethoven986

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
You may be too sensitive for this discussion Adam.. Thanks for the laugh, and to those sensitive folks who aren't able to conduct constructive criticism ( which happens) don't bother, because I don't have time to respond to ignorance.


While it is understandable for you to defend what you've obviously worked hard for, these kinds of responses come across as immature and are not going to win you any friends. Adam has valid concerns, which you are unwise to dismiss, especially since they are shared by other qualified tuner-technicians (including one person on here who actually designs, redesigns, and builds pianos for a living).

While I happen to disagree with Adam about the effects of the bridge being a detriment to tone, I was bothered by the apparent lack of understanding with respect to soundboard physics. Mass and stiffness of a soundboard assembly have immense impact on attack and sustain, and by using a granite bridge, you are adding a lot of both. If you are serious about refining your product, I recommend reading "Voicing the Soundboard with Weights and Riblets", which was published in the PTG Journal in the August 2007 issue.

You should also acquaint yourself with other literature on piano design (specifically soundboards) by Del Fandrich, Ron Overs, or anyone else who has expertise in that area. You need this knowledge if you keep doing these presentations because technicians always ask tough questions, especially if they catch you saying something untrue.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 08:41 PM

Thank you beethoven986.
I have several sources who have suggested the same as you have and for very good reasons since there will be more presentations in the future.
I am the inventor of the Stonetone® technologies and relize I need to have more perspective on the language used of the folks in these piano forums being I am a jouneyman in my trade than a piano technician.
I work with several piano professionals where they clue me in on pertinent questions as to why and so on.
Thanks again for the informative links.
Posted by: accordeur

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 08:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Ignorance is Bliss Jean don't take it personally, pay attention and you may learn something here.


Pay attention here and YOU will learn something.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 08:52 PM

Jean, put a sock in it already .. seems you are the one needs knowledge on this topic. Not many folks understand the physics of granite, try the giza pyramids for starters..
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 08:54 PM

Your definition, an uncited quote from WiKi, is incorrect in this application. A transducer changes one form of energy to another. That is not the case in a piano bridge. A piano bridge transmits mechanical energy, vibration, and does not change the form of energy.

It is you sir, who are rude and immature in your insistance to prove others wrong, even though they possess far greater understanding and knowledge of the specific application of a piano bridge.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 08:57 PM

sir have you played one? thats what I thought. my definition is correct and trumps yours by geological physicists conclusions far more credible than your assumptions. Don't be such a smarty Marty.
Posted by: accordeur

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 08:58 PM

Ok I'll bite.

Nah.... changed my mind.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 08:58 PM

I rest my case.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 09:01 PM

Our entry level prototype can be seen and played @ the pianoforte Chicago if you need to make your own decision if that is your choice, otherwise these type a comments are moot without the physical prototype in front of you. Good nite smile
Posted by: accordeur

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 09:09 PM

I saw your guitars, cool, but I would not want to have them hanging around my neck for more than a set.

The trend in all things is smaller and more efficient, pianos included I hope.

Even though things don't evolve as fast in the piano manufacturing business as in others, the next better piano will be lighter, more stable and reliable. I don't see where granite would contribute to this goal.

Keep on rocking man!!!

Sincerely , all the best.

Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 09:11 PM

Marty, you have no case, you speak from a wood perspective which has no relation to using granite as a bridge, the properties of these materials are of the opposite to each other. you would know this if you understood the concept before being rude yourself. don't expect me to argue with you when you no different than the sensitive types in here in agree with your lack of information just because you have experience.. read below..



I Never argue with stupid people, they will bring you down to their level then beat you with experience...Mark Twain
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 09:17 PM

All 23 prototypes weigh less than the stock weight, another thing you assumed? right? did you ask me? no again, so your sarcasm warrants a similar response but I know better.

The guitars speak faster than any other and so on.. this will take time to implement because folks aren't aware how this Stonetone® concept fits.

I will converse with you folks but won't take your sarcasm or quick judgments when you base your opinions on pure assumptions especially since you haven't played one or have knowledge of the attributes using granite as a transducer within any stringed instrument.

Thank you Jean.
Posted by: accordeur

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 09:22 PM

Thanks Robert,

Just tone down how you approach enquiries by us techs here, and we will stay interested and open minded.

Here is a joke for you, tongue in cheek.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKSkBsnfkFA

All the best.
Posted by: Dave B

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 09:56 PM

Robert your ego is amazing. Your sounding more and more like a cheap date that can't handle a compliment. You may have stumbled over something interesting; letting that go to your head spells disaster for both you and the product your associated with.

If there is anything of interest here, it's the stone bridge not you.
Posted by: accordeur

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 09:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Dave B
If there is anything of interest here, it's the stone bridge not you.



+1
Posted by: Bob Newbie

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 10:06 PM

here's another subject/post..that ends up with a glove slap,and pistols at dawn (sigh) frown
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 10:07 PM

Thank you for showing interest in my invention.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/26/12 11:59 PM

I have not commented on your product. Wood carrying vibrations is a transmitter, not a transducer. Your usage is incorrect. You are rude, insulting, and beligerent. That, you have proved beyond a doubt.

I have not heard the term "Smarty Marty" since I was in early grade school. Your need to resort to using it indicates your level of social development.

Have a lovely life as you do your best to promote your product in such a fine and skilled manner.
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 05:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Wood carrying vibrations is a transmitter, not a transducer.


And not only wood. That definition of transmitter holds for any other material, including granite.

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Your usage is incorrect.


+1.

It's the soundboard that's the transducer. The strung side is fed with mechanical vibrational energy (input), and both sides radiate airborne vibrational energy (output).

If the bridge, in itself, is indeed a transducer, Robert should be able to tell us
... the input energy form of the bridge and
... the output energy form of the bridge.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 06:36 AM

Marty, Mark etc, have no findings or test results of granite being used for a piano bridge because there is no patents ever mentioned having any details in the abstract of a patent.

Seems that the disrespect started with your continual slams.. and yet you keep coming back for more, how dumb are you? relaxe and try to digest what is the NEW technology to understand, like it or not, it is real.

Some folks who feel they have to slam another to make themselves feel better. Transducers folks have several meanings depending on the application in my invention it has a couple of terms based on the instrument.

Bob newbie I am new to this forum but sounds like your familiar of the rhetoric from certain people who enjoy being crass and opinionated before seaching the facts first.

These few people are the minority and lacking at that. The validity of this invention is fact no matter what the sensitive types think.

This topic was moving fine until MarkR started his crass disrespectful attitude than be a PROFESSIONAL. read below and from that point on the rhetoric never stopped since I posted comments from 2 professional pianist Kary who played the piano @ 444htz along with Dr. Richard Bosworth had comments. so don't come in here with your insults or muffled garble. It is senceless and a waste of everyones time to read your opinionated untruths.



MARK R so called professional response to my previous post of Kary and Richard. You contradict yourself by saying in all due respect then you end with downright gobbledygook. Your a joke Mark.

What I find really strange in this thread, and with all due respect, very detrimental to a discussion of the technical merits of the granite bridge, is an apparently random mixture of
... science (e.g. transducer principles, partial envelope),
... pseudo-science (utilizing "stored energy of atoms in a crystalline matrix" for a faster response),
... new-age mysticism (chakras and healing frequencies being felt at cellular level) and
... downright gobbledygook.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 06:52 AM

Any more questions of the invention or how and why it works? talk to one of your own & email (www.richardbosworth.org) and see how he responds to your crass untruths. manufacturers don't listen to the techs, they listen to the performer when ultimately there opinion is the one that sells pianos not the other way around. I am continuing my work on the 9' 1965 SD Baldwin concert grand today.. Have a great day.
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 07:12 AM

Quod erat demonstrandum, yet again.

Rather than explaining how a bridge could be called a transducer, you revert to more insults.
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 07:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Any more questions of the invention or how and why it works? talk to one of your own & email (www.richardbosworth.org) and see how he responds to your crass untruths. manufacturers don't listen to the techs, they listen to the performer when ultimately there opinion is the one that sells pianos not the other way around. I am continuing my work on the 9' 1965 SD Baldwin concert grand today.. Have a great day.


Robert, don't underestimate the influence of techs on potential customers. We are the people who regularly visit, tune and work on these instruments and we often discuss pianos and their performance envelope with them. Many non-techs come to this forum to munch popcorn and read up on our musings also. Take a look at some novel changes of pianos over the years and you will undoubtedly find technician testimonials beside them in the advertising/promotions.

If I buy a car, the first thing I do is go to mechanics forums and read up what they have to say about them, very few people are in a better position to criticise a product from a technical/professional perspective than the ones who work, rebuild or service them. At this somewhat early stage of this new bridge, I would think you would embrace input or constructive criticism to possibly get the final polish/shine on the product.
Posted by: adamp88

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 10:44 AM

Let it be noted, Robert, that you decided to post about your new invention in a forum for piano technicians, who as a whole are certain vastly more knowledgeable about the piano and how it works than Richard Bosworth or Thomas Zoells (who I know personally - he's a great guy and runs a fantastic organization in Pianoforte, but he's simply not going to be able to answer detailed technical questions authoritatively).

I had a feeling you wouldn't be able to take any constructive criticism, or any suggestions to tone down your responses. It's a shame. Your negativity certainly isn't hurting any of us, and if anything is only dissuading others from taking you and your product seriously.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 11:08 AM

It's not what you say, it is how you say it.
I've seen a number of comments on this forum that are of a catty nature.
Posted by: BDB

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 11:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
It's not what you say, it is how you say it.
I've seen a number of comments on this forum that are of a caddy nature.


Nobody is carrying your golf bags. Nor your tea.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 02:44 PM

Gentleman, there is a very simple device which could be used for Mr. Di Santo to come to understanding.

It's called a mirror. He should purchase one and take a long, hard look.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 03:21 PM

Minnesota mouth is @ it again...jeeez with this guy.. Don't you get it? your like a mosquito, Wheres the fly swatter? LOL
If your going to post in this forum act your age not your shoe size.
Posted by: accordeur

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 03:24 PM

Better look in the mirror he suggested you get. You are digging your own hole.
Posted by: beethoven986

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 03:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Minnesota mouth is @ it again...jeeez with this guy.. Don't you get it? your like a mosquito, Wheres the fly swatter? LOL
If your going to post in this forum act your age not your shoe size.



Robert, knock it off. Jeez.
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 04:15 PM

I agree Robert knock it off!
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 04:19 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFmEByS9Z0w&feature=share&list=ULPFmEByS9Z0w
5'1" Indonesian baby grand with Granite bridges and fitted with 20 additional dampers in comparison to a Fazoli 6'3 Grand..
This technology applies to ALL stringed instruments.
To play this instrument contact Pianoforte Chicago.
Posted by: Bob Newbie

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 06:33 PM

I watched the video..comparing a 6ft piano to a 5ft1" is comparing apples to oranges?
they should be of equal length..the bass is dead in the 5' piano which creates an unbalanced loudness in the treble side, though the sustain is nice..
Posted by: OperaTenor

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 07:00 PM

Be careful, Bob. You could be the next target.

crazy
Posted by: OperaTenor

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Minnesota mouth is @ it again...jeeez with this guy.. Don't you get it? your like a mosquito, Wheres the fly swatter? LOL
If your going to post in this forum act your age not your shoe size.



*You're, *Where's, *You're(again!).

Witty repartee is best executed with a functional use of the English language, wit notwithstanding.

You might want to give that some thought before your (or is it, "you're?") next attack.

Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 08:14 PM

OperaTenor,

You still looking for that black spec on your little white piece of paper? Don't bother me with your Babble. You and several others have no contributing dialogue to this topic and yet you still come back...

Seems you would be better as a english major since you aren't talking about pianos which this forum is used for. I have never attacked anyone one in this forum other than pointing out the folks that speak from emotion than fact which the naysayers who have posted garble have already identified themselves as such.

Stonetone® is here to discuss certain findings and talk to anyone interested in this concept than fuss with folks like you who babble about non related issues.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 08:23 PM



This just can't be real!
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 08:37 PM

Hi Robert
I keep wondering: Why not use glass instead of granite? Glass should have similar bridge mass and transmission properties that is the essence of your approach, but should:
1) Be easier and cheaper to fabricate.
2) Less chance of microfractures and microfissures (a concern with some posters).
3) The homogeneity of glass should reduce the possibility of random refraction of sound waves as it passes though the various densities of mineral components within granite. i.e. sound waves should be less distorted as they pass through glass rather than granite.
Posted by: OperaTenor

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 10:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
OperaTenor,

You still looking for that black spec on your little white piece of paper? Don't bother me with your Babble. You and several others have no contributing dialogue to this topic and yet you still come back...

Seems you would be better as a english major since you aren't talking about pianos which this forum is used for. I have never attacked anyone one in this forum other than pointing out the folks that speak from emotion than fact which the naysayers who have posted garble have already identified themselves as such.

Stonetone® is here to discuss certain findings and talk to anyone interested in this concept than fuss with folks like you who babble about non related issues.







Two things:

1) Congratulations! You must have proofread this one. Except, "babble" isn't capitalized. Tsk, tsk...

2) Piling on more insults and using emotion as an excuse do nothing for your 'scientific' case.

As for the relevance of my posts, you'd know better if you bothered getting a feel for this forum before pitching your sideshow. After your silly and insulting first response to my reasonable inquiries, I gave up on you. And, after sitting back and watching you insult experts, professionals, and enthusiasts here alike, it seems to me you need a boost getting off your high horse. You want to come across as credible and rational? Express yourself accurately and properly, and treat your audience with respect.

Another piece of advice: Any data or proof has to be logically presented and intelligible. Poorly recorded videos on YouTube of crappy pianos recorded from different perspectives only proves you aren't meticulous or properly prepared, which speaks directly to your lack of credibility.
Posted by: Dave B

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/27/12 10:16 PM

How about glass with wooden bridge pins?
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 01:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Seems that the disrespect started with your continual slams.. and yet you keep coming back for more, how dumb are you? relaxe and try to digest what is the NEW technology to understand, like it or not, it is real.

Crackpot alert.

Kees
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 07:48 AM

Bob newbie,

We had access to a fazioli and wanted to compare a high end to a crude entry level piano. We didn't have another Story & Clark 1 was enough..
In person the results were obvious and we all heard the difference. The recording can't produce what was heard in person even tho this was 1 of dozens more tests we will be doing as more pianos are completed.
9' SD Baldwin is soon to be done by the new year. This grand will be the most accurate of all tests to date.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 08:00 AM

Chris,

Glass is manufactured by man and cannot have the same or better qualities than the natural occurring mineral such as "STONE"



One other point to remember is that although you might expect an effect that is experienced equally in all directions, the piezoelectric effect is polarised.  In other words the quartz crystal might be struck from above(string vibration) but it gives out its charge horizontally and vertically, and vice versa.  Also, crystal is such a refined stone, refined in that its molecular structure – its atomic structure - is reflected in its outward pyramid shape, while granite is a composite stone. 

In fact the crystal shape suggests something of its inherent properties, for there are usually very well defined points and faces to a crystal and it is from these points that lines of power emanate from the stone as energy is transduced.

A quartz crystal transduces geomantic energy to chi, fire energy or prana or any combination of these.  It also transduces kinetic energy [being struck or vibrating] to electrical energy.  It can do all of these all at the same time, and all the reverse way round as well.  It never turns off.  If there is a difference in energy levels present then the crystal will transduce accordingly. 

A granite monolith, as it is partly comprised of quartz crystals, will do this as well. Similarities are easy.  Crystal is stone - granite is stone.  Electrical - piezoelectric effects and transducing effects in a crystal are the same with granite. Now let us turn our regard to stones.  The temptation is to liken a quartz crystal, just one type of stone, to another type of stone - granite.  Of course, having similar molecular properties there are basic similarities, besides being both ‘Stone’.  It would be most unusual otherwise, since granite is partly comprised of crystals.  The same kind of properties seem to be displayed so there is the obvious temptation to say that one can be used in a similar way as the other; the scale being the only real difference.

There is also the pattern that is established between the Earth body and the human body.  There are lines of power in both in that you have the ‘ley’ lines of the Earth body and ‘meridians’ of the human body - and the health of both bodies seem to be inextricably mixed with these lines.  The temptation is to equate the one with the other.  ( which has been noted when tuned to 444 )

Put those two together and you have a double temptation in that as you use quartz crystals on the human body so you may use granite on the Earth body. Our pyramid shape bridge can convert earth/ley line energy into seismic (acoustic) waves in a wide range of frequencies. Each pyramid shape or design has its own unique emitting frequency.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 08:09 AM

We are in early stages of development and were not selling anything @ this time other than showing on a crude entry level piano this concept works and wanted to let others be aware of what's to evolve as we produce additional pianos of a better quality in the future. The next piano will be a 1965 Baldwin SD 9' concert grand recorded professionally.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 08:32 AM

http://youtu.be/Kr4gd7JWSzs < this clip has only 68 dampers (Clair de lune) compared to the other videos before Naples piano added 20 more dampers.

http://youtu.be/PFmEByS9Z0w Clair De Lune


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWiAbHCpKDg&feature=share&list=ULrWiAbHCpKDg Grieg Nocturne Op.54,No.4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_JhOKO10ok&feature=share&list=ULn_JhOKO10ok Excerpt from Beethoven Moonlight


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCwKxCY6YhI&feature=share&list=ULyCwKxCY6YhI Excerpt from chopin Etude Op.10, No.3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vk75CetScA&feature=share&list=UL4vk75CetScA Excerpt from Beethoven Adagio


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I91cxjEhzeU&feature=share&list=ULI91cxjEhzeU Ode to joy Wood Vs Granite

Posted by: Withindale

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 09:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
A quartz crystal transduces geomantic energy to chi, fire energy or prana or any combination of these.  It also transduces kinetic energy [being struck or vibrating] to electrical energy.  It can do all of these all at the same time, and all the reverse way round as well.  It never turns off.  If there is a difference in energy levels present then the crystal will transduce accordingly. 


Robert

This is very exciting as I had never considered these things before.

Can you explain how the geomantic energy affects the sound? Or is it to do with transducing of power between the ‘ley’ lines of the Earth body (I presume this is the natural granite) and ‘meridians’ of the human body that have such a profound effect on our appreciation of music?
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 09:19 AM

Robert, back to the subject of facts in regards to the granite bridges... because granite is quite different from traditional wood two things would concern me in its application as a bridge.

First of all the feldspar and quartz are both extremely hard on the Mohs scale, harder than the steel wire sitting on it. Will the wire not get deformed, abraded or notched as it gets drawn back and forth across the termination points with the angular pressure of the strings downbearing?

Secondly, granite can have a relatively high PH, and will this alkalinity not promote corrosion on the steel wire next to it should conditions of higher than normal humidity exist (which would promote it)?
Posted by: Withindale

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 09:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Robert, back to the subject of facts in regards to the granite bridges... because granite is quite different from traditional wood two things would concern me in its application as a bridge.

First of all the feldspar and quartz are both extremely hard on the Mohs scale, harder than the steel wire sitting on it. Will the wire not get deformed, abraded or notched as it gets drawn back and forth across the termination points with the angular pressure of the strings downbearing?

Secondly, granite can have a relatively high PH, and will this alkalinity not promote corrosion on the steel wire next to it should conditions of higher than normal humidity exist (which would promote it)?


Why not use agraffes?
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 09:32 AM



Stoneway & Sons have mined these pianos for years.

The strings are spun using only the finest Roslau Silk Worms and the hammers are hand-forged by Nibelungen. In the Organic Completion of the Cycle of the Earth, the bridges are harvested from the Wapin Forest on the 4th day, of the 4th month, every 4th year, using crystalline saws tuned to 444Hz.
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 10:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty


Stoneway & Sons have mined these pianos for years.

The strings are spun using only the finest Roslau Silk Worms and the hammers are hand-forged by Nibelungen. In the Organic Completion of the Cycle of the Earth, the bridges are harvested from the Wapin Forest on the 4th day, of the 4th month, every 4th year, using crystalline saws tuned to 444Hz.


Do they make a Coriolis model of it that propogates sound waves equally well to the east (for people living south of the equator)? I also notice that it does not incorporate any water into the design and that many of the sharp corners point towards the bench in front of it..not very feng shui-ish. I suppose some musicians would like the idea of sitting down to it and getting "stoned", without having to indulge in more toxic substances.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 10:25 AM

Withindale,

First of all the feldspar and quartz are both extremely hard on the Mohs scale, harder than the steel wire sitting on it. Will the wire not get deformed, abraded or notched as it gets drawn back and forth across the termination points with the angular pressure of the strings downbearing?

Answer: No. the 1905 Baldwin has been strung since 2008 and we've had no problems.

Secondly, granite can have a relatively high PH, and will this alkalinity not promote corrosion on the steel wire next to it should conditions of higher than normal humidity exist (which would promote it)?

Answer: The humidity.


Why not use agraffes? Answer: Not necessary and has no place within our designs.



Only certain topics and questions I can discuss rather than divulge teachings of pertinent scientific facts we have discovered that are in direct relation with the patent pending on file as well as jeopardizing my international application as well. Once these files mature then I'll be able to directly converse on any level.


For now there is allot of information on this topic that you can explore to get a clear picture what is occurring using stone in the Bridge as I will try to answer as many questions as possible for anyone who finds this topic interesting.

Dr. Robert Youngquist and Dr. Stanley Starr Geological physicists Nasa applied scientists has directed us to the private sector of science that helped me understand a plethora of knowledge using granite in the bridge and how the degree of mass used relates to the excitement of the atoms within the stones matrix that responds to the down bearing pressure caused by the vibrating strings.



Posted by: DoelKees

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 10:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
A quartz crystal transduces geomantic energy to chi, fire energy or prana or any combination of these.  It also transduces kinetic energy [being struck or vibrating] to electrical energy.  It can do all of these all at the same time, and all the reverse way round as well.  It never turns off.  If there is a difference in energy levels present then the crystal will transduce accordingly.


LOL.

Don't forget that it changes you into a nine-year-old Hindu boy.

Kees
Posted by: Withindale

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 10:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Why not use agraffes? Answer: Not necessary and has no place within our designs.


Richard Dain explains why agraffes are superior to pins in his patent.

The way you mount the pins can compromise the crystalline integrity of the granite at the point you need it most.

This may be the reason for a tendency to the stridently piercing quality to the sustain that is evident in your recordings.
Posted by: Roger Ransom

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 11:16 AM

If you want people to take you seriously, you need to drop the silly new age stuff. Fire energy, chi, prana, earth body etc. are not science in any way.

Try again.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 11:21 AM

Withindale,

We have a process unlike the normal bridge pins that work great so far. Doesn't mean down the road we won't explore another process. Thank you for that information.

The ideas we've explored one way or the other are all a result of (Research and Development) and a stringent "process of elimination" we are involved with many assumptions that could produce more exciting results..

As far as the recording goes, Our intent was to see how the added mass and pyramid design compared to the stock baby grand with the additional dampers installed.

We posted the video for people to hear what was happening without saying THIS IS IT FOLKS.. not at all was that the intent as others draw there own conclusions.

This was recorded on a high end JVC video camera. We haven't completed a piano yet that warrants a professional recording as many have stated. But we intend to asap.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 11:24 AM

Roger ,

New age you say?.. This is not the forefront of my technology but interesting to see the relativity.

References to concepts analogous to the qi taken to be the life-process or flow of energy that sustains living beings are found in many belief systems, especially in Asia.

Philosophical conceptions of qi from the earliest records of Chinese philosophy (5th century BCE) correspond to Western notions of humours and the ancient Hindu yogic concept of prana, meaning "life force" in Sanskrit.

The earliest description of "force" in the current sense of vital energy is found in the Vedas of ancient India (circa 1500–1000 BCE),[7] and from the writings of the Chinese philosopher Mencius (4th century BCE).
Posted by: Phil D

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 11:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Chris,
Glass is manufactured by man and cannot have the same or better qualities than the natural occurring mineral such as "STONE"


Soapstone is natural too. So is sand. So is water. What about any of these things make them unsuitable to make bridges out of? And conversely, what intrinsic properties of granite make it better than glass to build bridges out of?

Natural does not automatically mean better. Anybody equipped with the ability to think critically can see that. You, sir... well perhaps you don't have that ability?
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 11:58 AM

Roger, some of it is new age and alot of it is a bunch of malarky, but some of it isn't, or at least its not fully understood yet to make an assesment. This lack of clarity can be used in both ways, both to promote something, or to bring negative impact on it.

For instance, granite contains radiation. Would you be better off without it around you, or in your home, the answer would be yes, since any exposure to radiation is not good for you unless your undergoing chemo therapy or something that outweighs its negative effect. In perspective to other things however, it probably does not matter in the case of 10 lbs of granite in your home. So scientific evidence indicates one thing, yet our interpretation of the evidence in perspective to other things makes it almost meaningless....unless your purpose is to put a spin on it and target the fears/emotions of people. To the same extent, a spectrum analyser may pick up on additional partials or different spectrum using a granite bridge on the soundboard. A claim can be made that it does indeed change the sound we hear. But if the average person can't tell the difference on a double blind test, what is the practical purpose of venturing away from tradition.

I personally would not bother to partake in a test where I am already told beforehand what to expect. The power of suggestion is so strong that it totally defies the underlying principles of a proper test. This is why I stopped listening to sound files of unusual temperaments where it is accompanied with paragraphs of descriptive lauding gobblygook.
Posted by: Withindale

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 12:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Phil D
Natural does not automatically mean better.

Phil, natural materials give a natural sound, synthetic materials give a synthetic sound. If you want synthetic sound why not not go for a digital instrument and then you can have as much sustain, or even swell, as you like?
Posted by: BDB

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 12:05 PM

Wood is natural, too. Glass can be, like obsidian.
Posted by: Phil D

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 12:16 PM

Isn't steel synthetic?

Edit: Maybe we should use spider silk instead. Or is animal-made not natural enough?
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 12:42 PM

Phil,

Glass is not a natural.
Sand is natural and is a derivative of stone.
Heated with a process by man to produce glass unlike granite.
Granite works exclusively for the important function of the bridge in the Piano.
Granite has more densities and variables to search out which is best for bass mid and treble registers than wood because of such stringent qualities limited sources.
Fazioli uses boxwood for the cap on there treble as the best source for that function.. I'm sure there was an extensive amount of tests to determine that.
Posted by: Phil D

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 01:21 PM

Please talk more about the intrinsic qualities of granite that make it more suitable than, say, boxwood. I'm sure Fazioli spent a lot of money on R&D to come up with that wood as the best material, researchers presenting facts, doing experiments.

But please understand that whether your material is natural or not is entirely irrelevant.
Posted by: OperaTenor

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 01:21 PM

Lightning glass is natural.
Posted by: OperaTenor

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 01:23 PM

Why not basalt? It's hard, has a more consistent crystalline matrix.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 01:39 PM

Maybe you need to research some more into this Phil since you have such a quick determination on a this technology.
You would understand this better if I could divulge more scientific facts other than the www.cymascope.com findings.
John Stuart Reid is in England, email him and see what he tells you.

As for lightning glass, it is natural from an "act of nature" and doesn't qualify it to be used as a material for a bridge in any piano.
Posted by: Phil D

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 01:46 PM

Granite may be an excellent material for piano bridges.

But I'm not interested, because of the style of your presentation, as I believe a lot of others are too.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 01:58 PM

Per the Density/specific Gravity: Basalt solid is @ 3011 Kg/cu - cm where granite is @ 2691 Kg/cu - cm

Example maple wood is 755Kg/cu - m

The properties of basalt isn't preferred for this use based on the mineral composition.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 01:59 PM

Have a nice day Phil, isn't it tea time?
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 02:16 PM

Here are some mainstream wood densities where not all types or exotics are listed.
But this will give a general idea of the difference of using wood Vs stone for a bridge of a piano:

Wood - seasoned & dry kg/cu.m
Afromosia 705
Apple 660 - 830
Ash, black 540
Ash, white 670
Aspen 420
Balsa 170
Bamboo 300 - 400
Birch (British) 670
Cedar, red 380
Cypress 510
Douglas Fir 530
Ebony 960 - 1120
Elm ( English ) 600
Elm ( Wych ) 690
Elm ( Rock ) 815
Iroko 655
Larch 590
Lignum Vitae 1280 - 1370
Mahogany ( Honduras ) 545
Mahogany ( African ) 495 - 850
Maple 755
Oak 590 - 930
Pine ( Oregon ) 530
Pine ( Parana ) 560
Pine ( Canadian ) 350 - 560
Pine ( Red ) 370 - 660
Redwood ( American ) 450
Redwood ( European ) 510
Spruce ( Canadian ) 450
Spruce ( Sitka ) 450
Sycamore 590
Teak 630 - 720
Willow 420
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 02:28 PM

The rock densities in the table below are expressed as specific gravity, which is the density of the rock relative to the density of water. That's not as strange as you may think, because water's density is 1 gram per cubic centimeter or 1 g/cm3. So these numbers translate directly to g/cm3, or tonnes per cubic meter (t/m3). As you can see, rocks of the same type can have any density in a range of densities, since they can contain different proportions of minerals and voids.
Rock densities are useful to engineers, of course. But they're also essential for geophysicists who must model the rocks of the Earth's crust for calculations of local gravity.

Rock density is very sensitive to the minerals that compose a particular rock type. Sedimentary rocks (and granite), which are rich in quartz and feldspar, tend to be less dense than volcanic rocks. And if you know your igneous petrology, you'll see that the more mafic a rock is, the greater its density.

Andesite 2.5 - 2.8
Basalt 2.8 - 3.0
Coal 1.1 - 1.4
Diabase 2.6 - 3.0
Diorite 2.8 - 3.0
Dolomite 2.8 - 2.9
Gabbro 2.7 - 3.3
Gneiss 2.6 - 2.9
Granite 2.6 - 2.7
Gypsum 2.3 - 2.8
Limestone 2.3 - 2.7
Marble 2.4 - 2.7
Mica schist 2.5 - 2.9
Peridotite 3.1 - 3.4
Quartzite 2.6 - 2.8
Rhyolite 2.4 - 2.6
Rock salt 2.5 - 2.6
Sandstone 2.2 - 2.8
Shale 2.4 - 2.8
Slate 2.7 - 2.8
Ads
Posted by: Roger Ransom

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 02:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Roger ,

New age you say?.. This is not the forefront of my technology but interesting to see the relativity.

References to concepts analogous to the qi taken to be the life-process or flow of energy that sustains living beings are found in many belief systems, especially in Asia.

Philosophical conceptions of qi from the earliest records of Chinese philosophy (5th century BCE) correspond to Western notions of humours and the ancient Hindu yogic concept of prana, meaning "life force" in Sanskrit.

The earliest description of "force" in the current sense of vital energy is found in the Vedas of ancient India (circa 1500–1000 BCE),[7] and from the writings of the Chinese philosopher Mencius (4th century BCE).


New age or whatever, I choose to call it 'new age'. Call it what you like, it is not science and has no place in a technical discussion.

I realize many of your points are not 'new age' and may be valid. My advice is to leave the 'new age' out of your descriptions if you want to be taken seriously.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/28/12 04:51 PM

I have a question for all the technicians in this forum:

On a percentage basis, when the hammer hits the string(s) how much signal loss or (energy) occurs before the signal(s) gets to the soundboard on a wood bridge piano?
Posted by: Supply

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 01:02 AM

Sorry, I can't answer that one.
But I am very interested in how the addition of extra dampers was implemented. In most grands there seems to be impossibly little room to add any dampers in the standard configuration. Are there any pictures showing the additional dampers and how they are designed?
Posted by: OperaTenor

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 01:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Per the Density/specific Gravity: Basalt solid is @ 3011 Kg/cu - cm where granite is @ 2691 Kg/cu - cm

Example maple wood is 755Kg/cu - m

The properties of basalt isn't preferred for this use based on the mineral composition.


That doesn't make any sense. Logic would dictate, based on what you're doing, that higher density would give you more return.
Posted by: Dave B

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 01:47 AM

Robert, You keep referring to "My Invention". I don't understand, what did you invent? Simply trying a different material on a 200 yr old design and trying to explain why you think it sounds better doesn't make you Thomas Edison.
Posted by: Withindale

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 02:08 AM

Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Per the Density/specific Gravity: Basalt solid is @ 3011 Kg/cu - cm where granite is @ 2691 Kg/cu - cm

Example maple wood is 755Kg/cu - m

The properties of basalt isn't preferred for this use based on the mineral composition.


That doesn't make any sense. Logic would dictate, based on what you're doing, that higher density would give you more return.


Jim, you seem to have missed Robert's point that the crystalline structure of granite is much to be preferred for physical and metaphysical reasons that Robert has expounded at some length.

There are different types of granite and the type chosen for bridges will need to be carefully selected following the results of the exhaustive Research and Development in progress. That programme should of course include other suitable minerals if only to rule them out.

It would be most unfortunate for someone else to come along with a better natural or composite material just as the granite bridge hits the market.

To my ears the defining characteristic of the recordings is an excruciatingly shrill piercing sound that reminds me of recordings of certain well-known sopranos that I have never been able to stand for some reason. I also hear a "metal on stone" quality in the sound, reminiscent of a mason's chisel.

These unfortunate side effects could potentially be mollified by using agraffes as described in Richard Dain's patents which I mentioned in an earlier post.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 07:54 AM

Supply,

Daniel Koehler owner of Naples Piano Company did the tedious work. Dan is the professional knowing of all functions of the piano I use as reference.
You could call him If you'd like @ 239.404.8007.
He would be more than glad to appease your interests and since Dan did the work I wouldn't share the fruits of his labor without his approval.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 08:08 AM

OperaTenor,

That doesn't make any sense. Logic would dictate, based on what you're doing, that higher density would give you more return.

ANSWER: Basalt doesn't have the complete mixture of minerals needed for my invention.

The chosen granite I use has the properties I'm looking for even tho I would use Quartzite which has a much higher percentage of quartz than the stone I use @ present and is as hard as basalt and yet has a much better looking matrix.

Logically speaking, in order to conclude all of my tests to be accurate I have to stick with the granite I started with otherwise the tests are not accurate wink once satisfied with the conclusions, then I will venture into other densities to see what is best for which register. No different than wood bridges consisting of multiple densities for each specific register..
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 08:44 AM

Dave B,

My invention refers to exactly that. I currently hold 2 international guitar patents in which I've produced 23 prototypes 7 of my own models.

I currently hold 3 International trademarks for my company: Stonetone®

1) mark for the name Stonetone®
2) mark for the artwork the name represents.
3) mark For the tag line, Music Of The Earth®

Early spring 2013 I will also hold another International patent on the piano application that's pending until such time.

And several more patents to come for the other stringed instruments within the next 5 yrs, while any of my patents can be extended if any additional technology is produced another file can be submitted under a CIP = [continuation in part], or filing a trademark will protect that entity for ever as long as the maintenance fees stay paid smile

That makes me an innovator in the (stringed instrument industry) again related to "MY INVENTION(S)".


Lets start with the US Patent Office definition of patent.

"A patent for an invention is the grant of a property right to the inventor, issued by the Patent and Trademark Office. The term of a new patent is 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, in special cases, from the date an earlier related application was filed, subject to the payment of maintenance fees. US patent grants are effective only within the US, US territories, and US possessions.
The right conferred by the patent grant is, in the language of the statute and of the grant itself, “the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling” the invention in the United States or “importing” the invention into the United States. What is granted is not the right to make, use, offer for sale, sell or import, but the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, selling or importing the invention."

So a patent is a property right. That idea for that comes all the way back from the original constitution. That right was granted by the U.S. government to an inventor to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling the invention throughout the U.S. or importing the invention into the U.S.

Included in this definition of patent is the notion of a limited monopoly. For a defined period of time. In return for that right, the inventor must provide a public disclosure of the invention in the form of the issued patent. Although many people view patents as something that impedes the spread of technology the intent is exactly the opposite. The patent has to completely describe the technology to enable others to copy it - after the period of limited monopoly is over. You can see that intent also in the maintenance fee framework of patents, in which the patent owner has to pay an escalating series of maintenance fees over time - which actually encourages inventors to give up the patent to the public unless they are using it.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 09:04 AM

The ANSWER to the question I asked prior is between 15% to 30% of the string dynamic due to the wood bridge performance, besides the waveforms conflicting the optimum performance side to side as well as vertically to the soundboard. This calculation doesn't apply to all 88 keys wink There are several variations.. We can control the attack & decay based on the design and amount of the preferred transducer used.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 01:22 PM

Now all of you can see the cymascope images that they call cymaglifs " Music Made Visible "

This scientific fact should suffice.

Enlarge for better viewing.

http://youtu.be/rQx_nieKBYY
Posted by: beethoven986

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 02:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Now all of you can see the cymascope images that they call cymaglifs " Music Made Visible "

This scientific fact should suffice.

Enlarge for better viewing.

http://youtu.be/rQx_nieKBYY


No one is disputing that the StoneTone bridge has a cleaner, more sustained sound compared to conventional bridges. This video doesn't prove how or why this occurs; it only shows that it occurs. For technicians, this visual representation isn't very useful IMO because we can hear what's happening.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 03:18 PM

I've been following this thread with interest, though quietly.

My thoughts: Let the product hit the market. If it's a good invention, it will speak for itself. If it's not a good invention, no amount of hype will make it one.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 03:33 PM

I posted the the cymaglifs to show the partials and that's it, nothing more.
Thank you for your observation Beethoven986.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 03:44 PM

Hello Loren,

This technology is far from hype in other words, folks such as Thomas Zoells and Dr. Richard Bosworths clarifications and dozens of other folks are privy to this process have all agreed on a very limited test basis that this process is valid and innovative.

As we further this effort in to much better quality pianos to see the significance in improvement with better comparisons since we have certainly validated this concept with the pianos completed thus far..

Anything we can do to improve the quality and or performance of the acoustic piano is our goal.

Our motto defines team as such: Together Everyone Achieves More.

Thank you for your input.
Posted by: Withindale

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 03:51 PM

Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo

No one is disputing that the StoneTone bridge has a cleaner, more sustained sound compared to conventional bridges. This video doesn't prove how or why this occurs; it only shows that it occurs. For technicians, this visual representation isn't very useful IMO because we can hear what's happening.


B986,

On the basis of this video I wouldn't say the Story & Clark and Baldwin pianos with granite bridges have a cleaner, more sustained sound than the other pianos, especially the Bosendorfer and Fazioli. It would be interesting to see the attack and decay plots over time.

What was surprising to me was the very marked differences in sound between the pianos. Do you think recording was a factor or are they representative in your experience?
Posted by: beethoven986

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 05:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Withindale


B986,

On the basis of this video I wouldn't say the Story & Clark and Baldwin pianos with granite bridges have a cleaner, more sustained sound than the other pianos, especially the Bosendorfer and Fazioli. It would be interesting to see the attack and decay plots over time.


I would. The Baldwin and Steinway concert grands sound especially "dirty" but it's impossible to say from this video whether that's due to slightly mistuned unisons, false beats, or a combination of both... my guess is probably a bit of both. The Bosendorfer sounds much cleaner, but still not like the Fazioli, Baldwin ST, or Hallet ST (and the decay profile is very different). To me, it's a night and day difference between the ST pianos and the conventional ones, but this does not mean I endorse the product (I'm in the Phoenix camp).

Originally Posted By: Withindale
What was surprising to me was the very marked differences in sound between the pianos. Do you think recording was a factor or are they representative in your experience?


Every piano is going to sound different, and the ones tested are all very different in terms of design, build quality, and age. I think the recording of the Hallet is representative of what I heard in person.
Posted by: jim ialeggio

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 06:28 PM

986,

Sounds like you heard/played this instrument.

Mass loading of the bass in a standard belly muffles and deadens the 1st 2 octaves, at least in my experiments. Manufactures who are paying attention will go to lengths to keep the mass down back there. Listening to the Youtube clip of the granite bridge, the bass seemed to have been sacrificed for the treble, as it was not at all satisfactory to my ears. True its an entry level piano, so maybe it sounded lousy before the modification...but my small bellies sound quite nice down there, so I don't want to assume what I take as a low frequency tonal deficiency is a small belly issue.

What was your take on the bass tone?

Jim Ialeggio
Posted by: Withindale

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 07:37 PM

986,
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
I would. The Baldwin and Steinway concert grands sound especially "dirty" but it's impossible to say from this video whether that's due to slightly mistuned unisons, false beats, or a combination of both... my guess is probably a bit of both. The Bosendorfer sounds much cleaner, but still not like the Fazioli, Baldwin ST, or Hallet ST (and the decay profile is very different). To me, it's a night and day difference between the ST pianos and the conventional ones, but this does not mean I endorse the product (I'm in the Phoenix camp).


B986,

You have a more discerning ear than mine! I can hear a "night and day" difference when comparing the treble sustain in my piano with the videos of instruments with granite bridges, but not at middle C#.

Maybe pianos to come will have better treble sustain as a result of improved bridges, or the Phoenix and weighting approaches you have mentioned.
Posted by: Dave B

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 07:54 PM

Robert, I guess it's time to wait and see what happens. This thread is overdone and all I can do is wish you the best of luck.
Posted by: beethoven986

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/29/12 08:05 PM

Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
986,

Sounds like you heard/played this instrument.... What was your take on the bass tone?

Jim Ialeggio



I just sent you a PM.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/30/12 07:56 AM


New Engineering Concepts on Sound Production
presented by the Piano Technicians Guild, Chicago Chapter


PianoForte Salon, 410 S. Michigan Ave., Studio 825
Open to the public

Stonetone® Music, Inc. has launched a revolutionary new concept in piano design, allowing for greater clarity of sound, sustain and register integration of the entire keyboard range. This is achieved by the direct and efficient transference of string vibrations through granite bridges to the soundboard.

Thomas Zoells president of Pianoforte Chicago has made this piano available for Artists, Technicians and anyone one who would like to play this prototype and witness this technology "hands on" this piano can be observed on the 3rd floor of the pianoforte establishment.


www.pianofortefoundation.org

©2012 PianoForte Foundation | 408 S. Michigan Ave. | Chicago, IL 60605 | 312.291.0291

I would like to thank all the folks here and throughout the piano forum who acknowledged and/or participated on this topic post or non post.
We will post further results as they arrive.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/30/12 09:23 AM

What is the date and time of the PTG presentation?
Posted by: Dave B

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/30/12 01:59 PM

Marty, Can you contact the PTG Chicago chapter for more info? I'm not a PTG member.
Posted by: Minnesota Marty

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/30/12 02:02 PM

Dave,

It wasn't directed to you. It was in the posting from R. D'S and I was asking him.
Posted by: beethoven986

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 09/30/12 02:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Dave,

It wasn't directed to you. It was in the posting from R. D'S and I was asking him.


It was two Tuesdays ago.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 10/04/12 08:27 AM

Page 3 of the Wippenpost October issue. Chicago Chapter PTG

REVIEW of the SEPTEMBER
CHAPTER MEETING
by Jeff Cappelli, RPT


Dr Richard Bosworth (long ago a classmate at IU) and
Robert DiSanto of Stone Tone Music, came to Chicago
to show off Mr DiSanto’s solid granite treble bridge and
granite-capped bass bridge, which he installed on a Story
and Clark production piano. Thomas Zoells acted as host
at his beautiful Pianoforte Salon in the Fine Arts Building,
where Dr Bosworth drew interesting tonal comparisons
between a new Shigeru Kawai 7’6” grand and a production
model Story and Clark small grand, modified with the new
bridge material.


It was quite clear that for the Story and Clark, the before
and after samplings (the former recorded) were of vastly
different sound qualities—the latter being more in focus,
with greater sustain. The granite bridge did produce a
lovely, clear sound at lower dynamic levels. Mr DiSanto
commented that the project will require further R&D.


Many questions arose during the evening about how the
mass of the bridges and the sensitive nature of the piano
soundboard might coexist over long periods of time. This
made for energized conversation, with interesting
observations and comments from several of the
technicians present.


Future innovation is essential in all industries and we are
delighted to have had the opportunity to visit with these
two—now pioneers in piano technology. As this is the
beginning of their journey, there will undoubtedly be more
discovery and developments in the future. Perhaps one
day we will see more modifications intended to transfer
energy as efficiently as possible to the soundboard—and to
our curious, waiting ears.

Jeff
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 11/03/12 01:11 PM

Hello Folks,
I am posting Novembers issue of the Slippery Rock Gazettes follow up article of Our presentation @ the Fine Arts Bldg. Chicago Sept. 18th.
Some pictures are available on the article itself.
We have some wonderful advancements to share soon 2013.




At Stonetone Music, the Granite Speaks for Itself

Stacy B. Williams

Special Correspondent

The Slippery Rock recently caught up with stone mason and inventor Robert DiSanto and pianist Dr. Richard Bosworth of Stonetone® Music, Inc. in Naples, Florida.

They have been quite busy over the last year and a half, but have made significant progress in the research phase of their granite piano bridge prototype.

This means they have been asking a lot of questions.

Being the meticulous artists that they are, Stonetone® is strategically making headway into the piano industry one question at a time. Although the experimental process is still in its inception, the response to the Stonetone® modified pianos has been overwhelmingly positive.

The two prototypes have performed extremely well in two recent experiments: one for a live audience of piano technicians and one for a Cymascope, an impressive scientific instrument that creates images of sound waves.

In September, DiSanto and Bosworth had an in-depth meeting with some of the top piano technicians in the Midwest at the PianoForte Foundation in Chicago. Their second prototype, the Story and Clark baby grand, was the showcase piece at the presentation. After three and a half weeks on the road from Naples, the Story and Clark finally arrived in Chicago ready for its debut.

“I think it stopped in every major city along the way and it didn’t go out of tune!” exclaimed DiSanto.

Thomas Zoells, Founder and Executive Director of the PianoForte Chicago, said the meeting was “a lively one with many questions.” It was an important learning experience for everyone involved.

After the presentation, many of the audience members (some of whom are pianists turned technicians) had the opportunity to test the entry-level Story and Clark against a handmade 7 1/2-foot Shigeru Kawai, known in the industry as a luxury piano. DiSanto said that this comparison was not ideal because it was like comparing a Corvette and a Pinto, but the difference was still incredibly pronounced.

“There were a lot of wide eyes,” said Bosworth, “It was just one Kodak moment after another.”

Piano tuner and technician Daniel Koehler, agrees, along with his colleagues, that granite bridges are superior in their sustaining quality. What the granite bridge can do for the piano sound pattern is the key to its success.

DiSanto explains that the sound pattern of wood bridges is attack, decay, sustain, release (ADSR). But with a granite bridge, the pattern becomes attack, sustain, decay, release (ASDR). So by sustaining the initial attack of the notes in a chord, one is able to hear all the tones for the same length of time rather than the treble range dying out first.

“The finest pianos have this laser-beam kind of tone, with a clean crisp sound, much like a vocal, dolce sweet quality,” says Bosworth, an acclaimed pianist.

StoneTone®’s exciting mission to create this kind of tone by using a modified granite bridge has passed several tests with flying colors, (specifically a purple hue) as seen in a Cymascope test (see photo).

They commissioned this Cymascope test with six different piano samples: four of them with wood bridges and StoneTone®’s two prototypes.

The Cymascope still image of the middle C-sharp note on the Story and Clark looks like a pretty fractal, but it actually represents all the harmonic overtones associated with that string as shown by the sustainability of the note.

The outer edges of the imprint express the principal sounding tone (middle C-sharp) and the center shapes express the overtone series (secondary pitches vibrating in fractional ratios, which add the color to the sound), DiSanto explains. Therefore, the granite is capable not only of sustaining the note, but it also allows the “full bouquet” to be heard more clearly.

Stonetone® deservedly feels confident moving forward as they are able to hear and scientifically see the difference between the traditional wood bridge and their granite bridge. There are numerous advantages to the increased presence of partial tones in each key, allowing more intricate pieces like polyphonic music to be heard in a refined manner.

Polyphonic music is composed of several independent voices or instruments constructed in a simultaneous manner. Johann Sebastian Bach is famous for these polyphonic compositions, and with a modified granite bridge, people may actually be able to hear them as they were written.

Bosworth admits that he has become more interested in playing polyphonic pieces on the Stonetone® prototypes because of the multilayered sound quality.

“Think of it like a can of worms… you follow one worm and there’s another one on top of that one,” says Bosworth, “so you hear these different musical lines, where one is going and you can hear another one underneath it, and all these subtleties of how the different tones relate to each other.”

The research team will continue to use volcano absolute black granite in their prototypes until, by process of elimination, they can conclude what the most superior granite may be for sustaining sound quality in the test pianos. Absolute black granite, with its amazing strength and high level of density, is an ideal benchmark because of its unalterable qualities.

“Whether I purchased a slab today or forty years from now, it would still be the consistent mineral that it is,” says DiSanto.

DiSanto knows a thing or two about stone, but Stonetone® is interested in networking with experts across related fields. He has been in communication with Dr. Stanley Starr and Dr. Robert Youngquist of the NASA Kennedy Space Center about the energy of sound and its relationship to stone.

Both experts (a physicist and a geologist, respectively) agree that granite is the best transducer to get the string energy to the soundboard, which is the amplifier of the instrument, says DiSanto. Youngquist and Starr have been encouraging of the Stonetone® technology.

Moving forward, Stonetone® agrees that one of the biggest challenges will be re-educating the public on the preconceptions of what is an optimal musical material and why. Traditionally, the piano maker’s mantra is “If it’s not wood, it’s not good.” And as StoneTone’s concept development continues to defy that statement, they may also want to prove to the stone industry that granite is ideal for sound.

If any people are prepared to tackle this project, it is the team of DiSanto (inventor), Bosworth (media relations and performer) and Koehler (piano technician). Their combined expertise and passion for stone, music and mechanics creates the perfect recipe for this musical mission.

At this point, a myriad of possibilities await the Stonetone® crew, and they all agree there is a long process of elimination ahead.

“That’s where the exciting part comes in, because there’s a lot to discover,” says DiSanto.

As for the modified Story and Clark piano, it will sit humbly on display in Chicago waiting for someone to play its keys. After all the questions that have been posed, the granite continues to speak for itself.

Zoells has shown the Stonetone® modified Story and Clark to select pianists and technicians. Soon the piano will be moved to the main showroom next to a similar entry-level wood bridge piano to order to truly exhibit the differences. The Stonetone® modified piano will stay on display at the PianoForte Foundation until February 2013.

Zoells believes that with a little more research and development to refine the granite bridge design in a higher quality piano, it is likely that manufacturers could adopt this technology to enhance their pianos.

“What effect it might have on high quality pianos remains to be seen,” says Zoells.

Like the strings of the Stonetone® modified Story and Clark, I guess we’ll just stay tuned.

For more information, contact Dr. Richard Bosworth, Media Relations for Stonetone® Music, Inc. at richard@richardbosworth.org or 239-919-6414.

Watch the Cymascope middle C-sharp test on www.youtube.com
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 11/27/12 04:59 PM

I am in Chicago right now. I took the time to go and look at this piano with a granite bridge. Here is "MY opinion of it."

I listened to it carefully. I played every single note many times going up and down the scale listening closely, how a technician would listen, listening to the sound, the tone, the evenness of the tone and the projection of the tone, and of the piano itself all of which I thought was lacking. I listened to the power from the hammers and thought that too was lacking.

I found erroneous nasally nasty sounds and buzzes here and there.

The over all tone of the piano was not even, especially when the bass turns into the tenor. I thought there was a very noticeable clash from the bass going into the tenor. Not a nice, smooth evenness as it enters the tenor section.

Not to mention, the piano was out of tune.

I was most unimpressed with the fact that the dampers go all the way up to C8! Making it virtually impossible to use mutes of any kind up in that section of the piano. The dampers are smack dab in the way up there. It would be miserable to tune up there.

I was not impressed at all with this piano. I did not think it sustained any better with a granite bridge.

Also, many of the bass dampers are not shutting off.

Over all? I was not in the LEAST impressed.

Again, that is my personal opinion of that piano.
Posted by: Dave B

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 11/27/12 07:37 PM

Thanks for the report Jerry.
Posted by: Bob

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 11/27/12 10:41 PM

So the tone was somewhere between a ROCK and a HARD PLACE? hehee
Posted by: Loren D

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 11/28/12 06:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Bob
So the tone was somewhere between a ROCK and a HARD PLACE? hehee


Ok now that was funny! laugh
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/01/12 10:15 PM

Jerry,

This is a Indonesian made piano... REMEMBER?? 1st off, thank you for taking your time to observe this new cutting edge technology. Were you expecting the performance of a high end Yamaha or another quality piano? This prototype was never intended to be that in any way, That's why it is called a PROTOTYPE.

If the identical was present you would hear the significant difference in improvement... either way, YOU, of a select few will always see the black dot on the white pc. of paper no matter.. The piano is not there because it doesn't work it is there because it does, and that has been clarified by many folks starting with the owner of the Pianoforte. Are you saying Thomas is wrong along with Richard Bosworth ? I have my opinion as you do, and you're inaccurate and not understanding the purpose of this project and probably never will.... Happy Holidays !!! Stonetone® Music of the Earth®
Posted by: Supply

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/01/12 11:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
I have my opinion as you do, and you're inaccurate and not understanding the purpose of this project and probably never will.... Happy Holidays !!! Stonetone® Music of the Earth®
?????

I don't think one person's opinion is more valid than another's, and I see this kind of response as an intolerant reaction, which is not helpful for your cause.

Mr. Di Santo, you surely understand that you are fighting a bit of an uphill battle with your concept. The musical instrument world is somewhat conservative. Many good pianos inventions have failed to break through on the market - not because of any lack of merit, but because they could not muster the critical mass required to become mainstream or even enter into the mainstream. I believe capturing hearts and minds is key here. Antagonism will only lead to closed minds and closed doors.

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
...I was most unimpressed with the fact that the dampers go all the way up to C8!..
Jerry - I have to disagree with you here. I am extremely curious how they managed to install dampers up in the top treble. Normally there is no space at all up there for damper wires because the hammer arc is so close to the belly rail. Did you see how they did that?
PS: I realize that your "being unimpressed" had to do more with servicing the piano....
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/01/12 11:56 PM

"prototype" comes from the greek.... "proto">first and "typos">impression. I believe Jerry gave us his. I'm not sure why an Indonesian piano was chosen for a first impression, scape goat maybe? I wouldn't think a new concept like this would be at its full potential unless it was voiced properly afterwards.

Jerry, do you think some good voicing could better blend the piano more evenly?
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/02/12 12:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Jerry,

This is a Indonesian made piano... REMEMBER?? So what? 1st off, thank you for taking your time to observe this new cutting edge technology. Were you expecting the performance of a high end Yamaha or another quality piano? This prototype was never intended to be that in any way, That's why it is called a PROTOTYPE.

If the identical was present you would hear the significant difference in improvement... either way, YOU, of a select few will always see the black dot on the white pc. of paper no matter.. The piano is not there because it doesn't work it is there because it does, and that has been clarified by many folks starting with the owner of the Pianoforte. Are you saying Thomas is wrong along with Richard Bosworth ? I have my opinion as you do, and you're inaccurate and not understanding the purpose of this project and probably never will.... Happy Holidays !!! Stonetone® Music of the Earth®


If you are trying to impress me or anyone here with your pianos I would think you would stop using excuses and stop treating us as if we were fools.

I stand by what I stated in my original posts with my opinion of it. If you don't like it, well, tough. If you want respect, give it. Otherwise, expect what you'll get in return.

How do you expect someone for example to tune the piano way up by C 8 with those dampers in the way?

I have a very open mind with almost all things. I had a very open mind going into look at this piano. I was actually looking forward to seeing it. However, I walked away with a different opinion than I thought I would have.

I most certainly was not expecting to hear buzzing and other erroneous sounds that it should not have regardless of make or model or quality. Fortunately, their technician was there with me and also heard what I heard.

Yes Jurgen,

All of the strings from A-0 to C-8 have dampers on them. smile I did not remove the action to look at it so can't tell you how they are in there. I wasn't about to "touch the thing." Don't want to be blamed for something you know... smile

You bet Emmery. A good tuning and a good voicing would most certainly improve the quality and evenness of the "tone." I plucked the strings and there is certainly room for a great improvement in that area. I was just quite surprised that the piano was not more evenly voiced when I got there. I would think that it would be. Why not try to get the best out of any prototype... wink
Posted by: Dave B

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/02/12 01:02 AM

Is there an explanation for the 88 dampers?
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/02/12 09:09 AM

The only thing I know about it is that the technician in the store told me that there is so much additional sustained (excessive) ring through in the treble where dampers normally stop that in order to supress it enough, they had to put dampers all the way up to the top.

Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/03/12 12:10 PM

The only "NEW" piano I Modified so far was the Story & Clark because I wanted to see how much better a new crown of the soundboard from a crude entry level piano worked compared to all of the previous pianos I've done that were all been between 40 to 100+ yrs old. Testing several different models, sizes,etc. can get very costly unlike the guitars I've already done. We will be modifying a New high end piano that may be introduced @ the next piano function around the summertime in Chicago.

There is well enough scientific data to support Modifying a NEW 100k + piano as our next prototype. The calculation of all the previous unknowns have been addressed. This next project will focus on having a Quality piano modified with the exact stock model side by side to compare the improvement. At that time, all you folks will have your fill, and so will I.. Have a nice day everyone.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/03/12 12:19 PM

Also, I am not a [Piano Technician] so any and all questions about the dampers, voicing or related technician topics, feel free to call Dan Koehler owner of Naples Piano Company to ask him any question. Have an hour to spare? He Loves to discuss this topic... 239.404.8007
Posted by: adamp88

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/03/12 12:56 PM

Would it be possible for him to come on here and respond to questions? That way he could address multiple questions from the group, and avoid any unintentional misinterpretations from someone calling him and then relaying his answers to the rest of us.
Posted by: Robert Di Santo

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/04/12 05:24 PM

Yes, Dans been made aware of his participation on this topic. Dan travels allot picking up & delivering pianos throughout the US and he's not always available but should post shortly so all of you can converse with him in the same piano/technician dialogue so he can answer your questions.
Posted by: OperaTenor

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/05/12 01:44 AM

Yeah, the whole insulting anyone who offers a less-than-favorable critique really makes me want to avoid ever having anything to do with this.

Jerry, thanks for taking the time to check it out and share your impressions.

It sounds like this is creating a new can of worms more than anything else.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/05/12 09:32 AM

Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Yeah, the whole insulting anyone who offers a less-than-favorable critique really makes me want to avoid ever having anything to do with this.


The reason many of us are not involved in this thread at all.
Posted by: David Jenson

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/05/12 09:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Yeah, the whole insulting anyone who offers a less-than-favorable critique really makes me want to avoid ever having anything to do with this.


The reason many of us are not involved in this thread at all.
Yup. Time will sort out what works and what doesn't. Thanks for sharing what you learned first-hand, Jerry.
Posted by: Daniel Koehler

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/06/12 07:36 AM

Hello to all who followed this thread... There is not short answer so this is long.

I am the owner of Naples Piano Company Daniel Koehler, and also the owner of the Story & Clark piano that has granite in it. Also I own "exclusive rights" to this granite technology in used pianos. I also own some of the new licensing agreement to a manufacturer(s) that will someday take that part on and continue the story we have begun.

This is a hard letter to write since I do NOT support the crass treatment you all received and style that has been unjustly delivered. This is why artists need to have someone represent their product that doesn't take offense. My opinion is that they treat this invention like you insulted their child on the play ground and a "defense mechanism" is in place. There is no way I can keep it secret about my strained relationship with the inventor as you have seen why in these previous statements throughout this long interchange which he chose to put forth, and as you can see I cannot control this and constantly felt I was put in a position to do damage control. Now while the delivery of this technology took a unfortunate turn, and frankly what I was afraid would happen when we went into the public view... I will concentrate on what is good instead, because arguing and bickering just grows to higher levels and the byproduct is that nothing gets accomplished but a lot of hurt feelings and extremely counterproductive not to mention a huge waste of time. I like to get things done so I will move on.

The story actually starts with the test prototype where we put 15 notes in the center of an old piano just to see if this thing worked, which I insisted we do before I invest more on an expensive piano. After that was finished I originally thought the thing failed because it kept sustaining and we lost most of the percussive hit. I had two pianists test this with both of them having doctorates in music, and much to my surprise they loved it! Why? Because it sustained and allowed them to play slowly and gave them more control to move to the next note when they wanted to, and not controlled by the piano decay demanding them to move. In essence they could get more artistic with expression and not constantly having to push the sustain to a knifes edge trying to linger in the moment, and everyone likes control! You literally could sight read slowly through a new piece of music and not lose your place because the sustain gives you more time to get your next fingering positions ready as the music was still in your head. Talk about an aid to new or beginner students.

I personally do welcome comments whether flattering or not, as I really do rely on that feed back because now is the time to change things while we are still in the prototype stage. I want to thank you all for any comment as I would love to change things for the better, and you all are helping me to do that. Thank you!

The first full piano prototype is the Baldwin 6'3" grand with granite built in the early 1900's. This piano is very mellow just like you would expect a Baldwin with good hammers to be, and with granite that good sound sustains longer. My data suggests that we sustain the notes longer by 1 octave more. It's not just about sustain length in time but about the energy not instantly dying off. Why is this important? The harmonics will interact more with other notes if they don't fall off fast. Most tuners out there should say that an 100 year old piano without a crown in the sound board would sound terrible because of lack of sustain. With this technology we have an over abundance of sustain, and frankly don't even need to curve the sound board to get projection of energy or sustain. We could bring back the Mahogany sound board and out sustain the wood bridge spruce pianos if we wanted. Early on we suggested plywood as an example of something to try just for kicks. I literally can take any old beat up piano and make it wonderful sounding (very handy with family heirlooms), and I proved that on this Baldwin with granite because it was owned by a school and really beat up over the years, and I thought to myself nothing can make this piano sound good again. Mr. Robert Di Santo's invention did prove to me that it works and the piano didn't just sound good but excelled beyond even my highest desires. This Baldwin granite has very powerful bass and totally different from the next prototype as the bridge mimic's the factory in dimensions.

The second full prototype some of you seen at the pianoforte dealerships in Chicago, which Mr. Thomas Zoells so graciously took on this technology to display it before it was perfected, which helps educate the public on what is up and coming, as his heart is truly in music propagation which is evident by this gesture for us. This piano is suppose to show us what we can do with an entry level piano that many get sold industry wide. Having a crown in the sound board did increased the sustain, but by doubling the granite in a pyramid elongated shape and softer wood cabinetry the energy vibrates into the cabinetry more. I was afraid that the finish might vibrate off! Luckily that didn't happen. This interesting prototype redefined enjoyment in an unexpected way.

First of all your concerns are valid on some of the items I read, and especially tuning in the last few notes (key 86 through 88) where I put dampers up there. For over a year I did not put 20 extra dampers up there until one pianist complained that someone was whistling in the background, and it ended up being the treble notes sustaining. It's not that I didn't know it needed dampers, but I was waiting for a negative response and someone that didn't like it which demanded that I put them on, which finally that did happen. Everyone was so amazed at the sustain that they were putting up with extra high harmonic ring and didn't want to hurt my feelings I'm sure. A true friend will tell you the truth nicely and that is how the dampers were instigated. If I put them on originally nothing is proved. By pianists complaining I have proof that it is a problem. I've done this on a lot of test as I wait till someone complains and then I spend weeks thinking of how I can change that item. This dampers situation turned out to be very difficult to get a hold of since I called around to everyone I thought of kept mentioning back to me that there are only 72 dampers manufactured currently on the best pianos, and all 88 keys does not exist. Being pressure to finish them up in 1 month time... I chose to use some old piano dampers and cut them up to make them fit. In no way are they perfect but just functional. I had to make an extended tray and also a top guide, and lets just say I had more fun then I wanted! I have located a manufacturer now that said they would make all 88 for me, and eventually when this technology is license to a manufacturer they will design the pianos with them from the ground up. While the last 3 strings are difficult to tune I found it best to raise the dampers and put a rubber mute in them, and this while difficult does get the job done. On the flip side I did find it easier to tune the treble because it sustains longer and I can lock it in better. There also should be more tone reflected back in a concert halls that you hear an echo, and instead of that annoying click you usually hear there should be some tone with it. I do like tuning in the treble with granite because there is little "after decay" so it solved the long standing issue of tuning to the hit or decay of the hit, which is noticed more the higher you go in the treble, and of course the less quality the more this shows up.

Tone wise the piano does representative the instrument manufacturers original sound, but by putting granite in it does allow less fall off of the initial hit and it clearly does sustain longer then it did before granite was installed, which is easily represented in regular sound graph's, but like one pianist put it "you just made an inexpensive piano's sound just sustain longer". While that is true... it also has amazed me that I prefer the inexpensive made Story & Clark (Indonesian made) piano with granite over the Baldwin with granite even though the quality of tone is better on the Baldwin. I have worked for 2 Baldwin dealerships in my past and I like Baldwin's a lot... but much to my surprise I will take a less quality tone if more sustain is added, and because the new Story & Clark with granite has a crown in the sound board it does sustain longer then the Baldwin that basically does not. If I re-crowned the old Baldwin's sound board I would choose the Baldwin naturally.

The 3rd prototype chosen is a 9 foot concert Baldwin built back in the 60's. This piano will tell us how far the technology will go on a standard 9 foot length concert piano as we will be doing the other end of the pianos length. The action is "up to speed" as this one could be used in concerts, whereas the other two were not made for that venue originally. This piano has two bridges with a connecting point between them, and it's an unknown what will happen if the bass vibrations are allowed to travel far up the treble bridge. For now it might be best to keep them separate and when money is not an issue try one connected and see what will happen.

As most of you can see there are too many unknowns, and I just mentioned a couple things we are dealing with. I didn't even mention what happens if we add more pressure, which has caused people to laugh, cry, and every emotion in between when certain songs were played. The harmonics seem to be felt so deeply that amazing reactions come forth with expressive emotions. When I add more pressure to 50 regular wood bridge pianos we just get a more annoying hit with less sustain. With granite it starts to bring back some of the percussive hit and takes sustain back down minutely, but the feeling physically felt interacts with our brain/body as "the granite piano now goes into 3d as you will feel the energy also and not just hear it". The Story & Clark shows very little of this feeling because it's only tuned to A=440 presently, and to engage feel stronger it needs to go to A=444 hertz and then all the bells and whistles come alive. I don't dare go farther then that as I don't want to test the harp limits. With the Baldwin I did engage A=448 Hz due to it's stress limits extended and more quality hard wood framework, but without manufacturer specs and approval I don't want to go farther then A=444 hertz on a consistent basis. Many, many more blessings coming up as we look forward to the marketing team that can take this farther someday in the near future. Will this ever get off the ground and fly? The answer is yes it is here to stay because it causes people to play the piano more because of the good feeling. In the past I loved to get on a 9 foot grand as chop stick even sounded good on a piano with better harmonics. Now I can play a baby grand and enjoy it even better with less cost.

As for me I belong in the search and the discover part of this technology and will try to remain there except for an occasional conference or other things demanding my presents to answer questions on the fly, or to bring certain ones up to speed on the newest discovery. Dan
Posted by: Emmery

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/06/12 08:49 AM

Thanks for the clarifications Dan. Outside of the problems associated with tuning/servicing a piano with dampers running fully up the treble, the concept of having damper control for these notes in this area would be quite appealing for some pianists. These notes also pick up sympathetic vibration (if left undamped) and do add to normal pianos overall spectrum when played so perhaps a comment on how the piano sounds without this resonance should be made by someone who has heard it.

I think an reasonable thing to pursue would be some sort of material that is sandwiched between the granite and the soundboard in order to moderate the granites ability to convey energy to more reasonable limits....if these limits are desirable, such as in the treble.
Posted by: Cy Shuster, RPT

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/06/12 09:57 AM

An old trick is to use thin shims under the damper tray felt to get progressive lift, for example, two thicknesses under the top section, one in the next section down. This would allow the pianist to lift just the new top section of dampers with half-pedaling, to add those sympathetic vibrations when desired.

I applaud everyone who is trying out new ideas. New materials in action parts, soundboard, and bridges seem to have the greatest potential for big changes.

--Cy--
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/06/12 10:10 AM

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the posting; that one must have taken up considerable time for you to process. As you have mentioned you are more involved in the search and discover side of this equation which is completely understandable.

For these two paragraphs below I have one observation;

Originally Posted By: Daniel Koehler
This is a hard letter to write since I do NOT support the crass treatment you all received and style that has been unjustly delivered. This is why artists need to have someone represent their product that doesn't take offense. My opinion is that they treat this invention like you insulted their child on the play ground and a "defense mechanism" is in place.


Originally Posted By: Daniel Koehler
I personally do welcome comments whether flattering or not, as I really do rely on that feed back because now is the time to change things while we are still in the prototype stage. I want to thank you all for any comment as I would love to change things for the better, and you all are helping me to do that. Thank you!


While I am not trying to direct anyone’s business I believe all involved in this developmental process need to have a meeting with Mr. Di Santo and impress upon him the value of having an impartial third party such as a marketing firm advance the developments of this invention to the public; perhaps a firm that has personnel experienced in the piano business.

That way the personal emotion invested by the inventor is does not hinder further development, acceptance of this invention in the mainstream marketplace, and following sales volumes.
Posted by: Dave B

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/06/12 07:57 PM

Dan, Thanks for posting. I too applaud people who are trying to improve the piano. I believe the piano is still in the process realizing its potential.

I'm confused by the use of the word "Technology" and by the phrase "Mr. Robert DeSanto's invention". I don't understand how the use of a different natural material for piano bridges is an invention or an technological advancement?
Posted by: Jerry Groot RPT

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/06/12 11:00 PM

Thanks for posting Dan. I found it to be a very interesting read. I will be traveling to Chicago in January and again in February. It would be most interesting to check out another piano if it were available there.

I wish you the best in your new venture!
Posted by: Daniel Koehler

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/07/12 06:05 AM

Looking up the terms

Technology is by Wikipedia... "is the making, modification, usage, and knowledge of tools, machines, techniques, crafts, systems, methods of organization, in order to solve a problem".

Invention is by Wikipedia... "is a unique or novel device, method, composition or process. It may be an improvement upon a machine or product, or a new process for creating an object or a result"

The technology fits this piano project perfectly as the modification, and usage with techniques, and solving a problem are highest on the list.

The Invention fits also as using stone in the bridge is very unique, and certainly and improvement with auditory sustain and support, plus it most certainly is a new process.

Mr. Robert Di Santo is the one that came up with the idea and sculpted the stone as he is "an artist" in the stone field, and it is only fitting to respect him as the inventor of using stone in musical instruments.

As far as technology advancement... can you imagine a piano sound board that does not loose its crown over time? The stone supports the sound boards curvature to not move or bend out of shape, and the sound board supports the stone from breaking as the two resists movement, therefore it does not go out of tune with climate change as quick but resists sound board movement since rock is not as affected by moisture as much. Actually the rock bridge resists forward pull when the pianos string tension is lifted as the rock bridge doesn't bend much, unlike the wooden one that does bend as I fight that trying to settle the strings while tuning pianos.

The reason for the curvature of the sound board is that the wood under stress transmits sound better exciting the material. Those who have seen Mason & Hamlin's sound board demonstration model can easily see that the bent sound board projects a better sound then the dull sound without a curvature of the sound board (got to love the visuals). Now that granite is holding the sound board to not loose the bend you can see the long term benefit's in that one item alone, as we make a piano sound good for so many years that it's unknown how long. Maybe we shouldn't do this as why would you buy a new piano then? Hm... Better then that though is we found we don't even need the curve to sustain and sound good which blew my mind away as a tuner because I rebuild old pianos frequently, and now they can sound great without a crown since most have long past that point. Every time I turn around it seems I find another blessing to this one material change.

The speed of the transfer of sound through stone is faster with less loss. Not having electronic amplification it's best to eliminate as many drags or resistance to get the most out of the energy that the string produces. Wood is a great substance to transfer energy into the air, but as a point A to point B going through wood I find it has its limits.

If I were to ask which needle in a record player would you use to transfer the energy to the amplifier and gave 4 materials; Wood, Steel, Gem Stone, Diamond... which one would you chose to get the most energy out of the vinyl record? The truth is that we have been using wood in a piano bridge and really diamond would be the best for energy transfer. Granite is going towards diamond although we are far from it in speed of transfer. Granite does go beyond wood in transfer through it, but as far as transmitting like a sound board does into the air like a speaker cone you would see granite would not be heard very many feet away. Bottom line is that we should use the material that is best suited for the usage, and so far I see the best choice now is a wooden sound board with tight grain and granite in the bridge. In the future I look forward to using gemstone and going another level.

Actually there are many advancements coming out in the future because of this material change, because we can control the pianos sound greatly with this one item. The excitement around here is great, and the pianists that I am gifted with that are helping me understand their world is contouring the direction taken, as I want to listen and advance. Dan
Posted by: Daniel Koehler

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/07/12 06:37 AM

Thanks for your comments as you are very right on about the marketing of a product. We need this! I'm looking forward to having a manufacturer take this side of things as they are already set up to build pianos and market them, and life would be easier for all of us at that point.

When the piano patent prints then licensing can start as you need the title to secure your market worldwide and get a return on all the investment made. We are close to the patent printing which I hear is spring 2013. Seven years ago when I got involved with this we were a long way off, and now after years and years of study and much investment it is about to come forth. Until then we all have to pitch in and help where we can even if it's not our cup of tea! Dan
Posted by: Daniel Koehler

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/07/12 07:13 AM

Thanks for the tip on shims.

I actually have the reverse problem because the audible sustain increased greatly (almost no fall off of tone noticed) so that I have to increase the dampers length to silence the strings energy, as pedaling starts just with a touch of the pedal instead of holding it down because it's too easy to get sustain happening.

I'm currently wanting to install some player systems to see what happens with the playability of them (1 QRS and 1 Pianodisc) because of our extra sustain might change things. I have been certified in both so when I can afford one of each I will install them (one in each granite prototype).

The Story & Clark piano is a QRS product and has a pre-cut hole so that one fits QRS rail perfectly. The Baldwin granite 100+ old action has a 3/4 inch indented or cut key so it fits the Pianodisc rail perfectly.

The questions are...
1. Will the piano sounds run together? (Negative)
2. Will the piano sound less choppy? (positive)
3. Do we even need a pedal or will the QRS keys held be the perfect sustain and fluidity making the solenoid pedal useless addition?

I'm guessing door #3 (ha ha). Anyway... as you see the advancements only go as fast as the money I have to put towards it! Dan
Posted by: Daniel Koehler

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/07/12 07:24 AM

Thanks for the well wishes.

The pianos in Chicago was short lived and the time for the Story & Clark with granite is scheduled to come back as it was on loan for a predetermined time mainly for a preview of what's to come.

So far other prototypes are not produced yet, and I'm looking at putting a player in the ones we have now and will be testing what reaction those have with the pianos because of the granite bridge. Research and Development is fun! Dan
Posted by: Daniel Koehler

Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production - 12/07/12 07:36 AM

You are right on track Emmery with other materials and their usage.

For years you have seen manufacturers contour the bridge with lamination's and various types of woods used including different shapes. What would happen if we used two or three types of granite? What would happen if we used wood on the pins as a top cap and granite block underneath? What would happen if we used granite on top and wood underneath? What about granite on height, shape, size? As you can see there are so many variables that we need a full team working hard to just get some answers to the "what if" questions. I look forward to exploring all the variations when the opportunity can be taken. Dan