Sample

Posted by: BDB

Sample - 03/09/13 02:32 AM

For those of you who have asked for a sample of my tuning, here is one, courtesy of a local PBS station:

Posted by: Mark R.

Re: Sample - 03/09/13 06:37 AM

BDB,

Could you clue me in as to where the piano's microphones were located?

Why I'm asking: granted, I'm only listening on smallish headphones, but from what I hear, the voicings in the 3rd and the 4th octave are carrying through very warmly, while the 5th octave, especially at forte, sounds quite harsh, almost metallic. I was wondering whether that's to do with the recording, or my playback, or whether it was perhaps voiced that way deliberately?
Posted by: BDB

Re: Sample - 03/09/13 10:59 AM

I really cannot, as I tuned and went home, but it is usually miked with a couple of mikes under the lid. The piano is an old Kawai 600 from the 1960s, which has seen a lot of use. I first tuned it for a show with Woody Herman, and when I tell people that now, they ask, "Who is Woody Herman?" It is kind of harsh in the upper registers, but as I often say, there are limits to how much voicing one can do. The television lights have an affect, too. It was warmer than usual on the stage.
Posted by: BDB

Re: Sample - 04/05/13 02:23 AM

Bumping this for Maximillyan.
Posted by: David Jenson

Re: Sample - 04/05/13 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
BDB,

Could you clue me in as to where the piano's microphones were located?

If possible, I like to hear pianos with no mic interface. I realize that's not possible in this case. If I do hear a recording, I withhold any critique unless the unisons and octaves are howling like a pack of wolves. Mics, room acoustics, and recording equipment mess up any good sound if they aren't perfect, and they seldom are.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Sample - 04/05/13 09:46 AM

As there :

What size is that piano ?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQVW5mbGFGOHBLTGs/edit?usp=sharing (sorry for the music wink

On the BDB record, unison seem to shorten the tone somehow (sorry)
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: Sample - 04/05/13 04:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Olek
As there :

What size is that piano ?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQVW5mbGFGOHBLTGs/edit?usp=sharing (sorry for the music wink

On the BDB record, unison seem to shorten the tone somehow (sorry)

Issac, can you explain what it is about a unison that will cause the tone to shorten?
Posted by: dancarney

Re: Sample - 04/05/13 05:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Originally Posted By: Olek
As there :

What size is that piano ?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQVW5mbGFGOHBLTGs/edit?usp=sharing (sorry for the music wink

On the BDB record, unison seem to shorten the tone somehow (sorry)

Issac, can you explain what it is about a unison that will cause the tone to shorten?


Quicker decay, perhaps.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Sample - 04/05/13 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By: dancarney
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Originally Posted By: Olek
As there :

What size is that piano ?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQVW5mbGFGOHBLTGs/edit?usp=sharing (sorry for the music wink

On the BDB record, unison seem to shorten the tone somehow (sorry)

Issac, can you explain what it is about a unison that will cause the tone to shorten?


Quicker decay, perhaps.


Yes , Chris, I (thanks Dan) think that when we say "tune the attack" it is not the attack per se that is empowered by the tuning, more the decay moment, the attack is then cleaned because energy is immediately given to a larger spectra, then, the power allowed immediately can be regulated by tuning the decay more or less "late" . The range of possibilities is not that large and depends of the differences in spectras, iH, voicing, (string lenght eveness in the unison , string quality and hammer quality)

You can strive to obtain much power immediately, or allow the attack to "enlarge" , this gIves more control on tone to the pianist. I believe that basically the playing hand that tells the brain when to tune (hence the possibility to tune with earplugs up to some point, as the thickening of tone is perceived)

The idea "hear 2 strings as it was one" is good as long as the string imagined is thickened and more present, more lively.

The tone can be explosive but at the beginning of the aftersound.

I have no other easy trick than to evaluate how the tone escapes and "tune the attack", but to do so we need to focus on coupling at a certain level, when adfing the 3 string straightness of tone can be balanced.

Tuning good intruments make this easier to perceive.
Then, voicing can be envisaged leaving more power at the attack.

Greetings
Posted by: bkw58

Re: Sample - 12/08/13 02:49 PM

Sent here via link on Max's thread.

Really nice BDB. Voiced just right for soft jazz. Piano and double bass compliment especially well.
Posted by: rxd

Re: Sample - 12/09/13 01:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Originally Posted By: Olek
As there :

What size is that piano ?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQVW5mbGFGOHBLTGs/edit?usp=sharing (sorry for the music wink

On the BDB record, unison seem to shorten the tone somehow (sorry)

Issac, can you explain what it is about a unison that will cause the tone to shorten?


This question was never answered.
Isaac seems not to know much about this sort of piano from this era. They had a tendency to shortness of sustain. Was this Isaac merely being pretentious again?
Posted by: Olek

Re: Sample - 12/09/13 01:31 AM

wink...
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: Sample - 12/09/13 01:42 AM

Thanks rxd. I asked because I notice on some pianos that some unisons seem to vanish quicker when tuned in while others, most, do not. I thought maybe that Isaac was thinking that this phenomena was happening on BDB's recording, so I was just wondering about a physical explanation.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Sample - 12/09/13 02:16 AM

You always can cut a little in tone at tuning time, then on old Japanese pianos short tone will be even worse. I listened with better equipment and could not decide if it was unison or the piano, but I had to go before listening to the whole video.
Then
Then if you lengthen the (fundamental) tone by tuning unison at FFF so you get more energy to drive, but dynamics may lower.

That just relate to the use of impact energy, but when the piano have short sustain, that one reduce your options. Eventually, playing very strong while tuning gives a little more material to work with. And the player can do the same then.

Music very nicely played
Posted by: bkw58

Re: Sample - 12/09/13 03:00 AM

Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.
Posted by: rxd

Re: Sample - 12/09/13 05:17 AM

Originally Posted By: bkw58
Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.


I must confess to not listening again, I started to but refused to pick through all the talking but the pianist can do much more than we think.

The sustain varies very subtly from note to note in all pianos. A stage piano doesn't always get the maintenance it should and equality of sustain suffers.
while there are ways of poking through the strings with a long needle to obtain more sustain from the hammer, tuning on the day of a big production like this rarely allows for any refinement.

I have to sincerely question isaacs experience of this kind of work. He claims to know but his comments show a distinct lack of understanding. There's more of self promotion in his nit picking criticism. I would expect sympathy with the situation from a real fellow professional. He sounds to me like a really talented amateur who hangs around the profession and then totally falls apart when the real job has to be done. I've known quite a few.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Sample - 12/09/13 06:37 AM

I may have lost some of my goodwill energy, may be.

I don't do much concert work those days indeed. You would it be you had to listen to numerous samples of my work so you could admit how great I am...

You can stay sitting, no problem. Beside, I am presumptuous as all Frenchies probably.
With all due respect to honorable colleagues...

Posted by: David Jenson

Re: Sample - 12/09/13 07:24 AM

Originally Posted By: bkw58
Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.

This sample sounds as good now as it did eight months ago. The piano is marvelous and the musicians are top-notch. I may start sounding like a skipping record (remember those?), but microphones don't hear like we do. For broadcast purposes, sound is limited or compressed, or both, so it won't sound like it does in the actual performance in the room. 'Great job!
Posted by: UnrightTooner

Re: Sample - 12/09/13 07:58 AM

Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.

This sample sounds as good now as it did eight months ago. The piano is marvelous and the musicians are top-notch. I may start sounding like a skipping record (remember those?), but microphones don't hear like we do. For broadcast purposes, sound is limited or compressed, or both, so it won't sound like it does in the actual performance in the room. 'Great job!


Yes, if a piano sounds the same after 8 months, that is great stability. wink
Posted by: bkw58

Re: Sample - 12/09/13 10:31 AM

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.

This sample sounds as good now as it did eight months ago. The piano is marvelous and the musicians are top-notch. I may start sounding like a skipping record (remember those?), but microphones don't hear like we do. For broadcast purposes, sound is limited or compressed, or both, so it won't sound like it does in the actual performance in the room. 'Great job!


Yes, if a piano sounds the same after 8 months, that is great stability. wink


You might have just discovered a new way to look at piano tuning stability: literarily. This is great! Think I'll look too. Could be one of my tunings has been holding for some 10 years now. Come to think of it, literarily is really not the best word here. We may need to coin a new adverb: audio-literarily. (I'll race you to the copyright office.) laugh
Posted by: BDB

Re: Sample - 12/09/13 12:44 PM

Not only has the tuning not changed in that recording, the comments have not either.

On the other hand, that piano has been tuned 4 or 5 times since that was made.
Posted by: rxd

Re: Sample - 12/09/13 02:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Olek
I may have lost some of my goodwill energy, may be.

I don't do much concert work those days indeed. You would it be you had to listen to numerous samples of my work so you could admit how great I am...

You can stay sitting, no problem. Beside, I am presumptuous as all Frenchies probably.
With all due respect to honorable colleagues...



Isaac, you sayin you're a hazbin?

No no no. That accolade belongs to me and I'm not ready to relinquish it yet.

Just a little longer???
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: Sample - 12/09/13 08:19 PM

Thanks for posting, BDB. It sounds good as one would expect in a broadcast recording. Kawais of that era did not have the best of bridge caps. That could contribute to the short sustain, also contamination such as some kind of muck that we don't really see but is there. If you are a tuner asked to tune a piano for an event like this, there are some things you can't change on the spot. Leave to Isaac, however to not find anything nice to say about anyone's efforts.
Posted by: That Guy

Re: Sample - 12/09/13 08:38 PM

About 20 minutes in there's a nice piano solo. Nice job BDB! The piano sounded marvelous!
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: Sample - 12/11/13 02:57 PM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.


I must confess to not listening again, I started to but refused to pick through all the talking but the pianist can do much more than we think.

The sustain varies very subtly from note to note in all pianos. A stage piano doesn't always get the maintenance it should and equality of sustain suffers.
while there are ways of poking through the strings with a long needle to obtain more sustain from the hammer, tuning on the day of a big production like this rarely allows for any refinement.

I have to sincerely question isaacs experience of this kind of work. He claims to know but his comments show a distinct lack of understanding. There's more of self promotion in his nit picking criticism. I would expect sympathy with the situation from a real fellow professional. He sounds to me like a really talented amateur who hangs around the profession and then totally falls apart when the real job has to be done. I've known quite a few.


rxd,

I think that only a boor would direct those words to a technician as Isaac, and I do not see how that style can help to describe our work. I think you ought to apologize.
.
Posted by: rxd

Re: Sample - 12/11/13 05:32 PM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.


I must confess to not listening again, I started to but refused to pick through all the talking but the pianist can do much more than we think.

The sustain varies very subtly from note to note in all pianos. A stage piano doesn't always get the maintenance it should and equality of sustain suffers.
while there are ways of poking through the strings with a long needle to obtain more sustain from the hammer, tuning on the day of a big production like this rarely allows for any refinement.

I have to sincerely question isaacs experience of this kind of work. He claims to know but his comments show a distinct lack of understanding. There's more of self promotion in his nit picking criticism. I would expect sympathy with the situation from a real fellow professional. He sounds to me like a really talented amateur who hangs around the profession and then totally falls apart when the real job has to be done. I've known quite a few.


rxd,

I think that only a boor would direct those words to a technician as Isaac, and I do not see how that style can help to describe our work. I think you ought to apologize.
.


I quite agree and understand fully where you're coming from and the emotional content carried over from other threads. - an all too common occurrence.
Since you raised the issue again, It took a few words in order to address an ongoing problem. A totally unfounded, unnecessary and pretentious criticism of a compressed recording couldn't go unchallenged at the same level.

Am I to assume that you agree with isaacs original "criticism" when he himself posted later an admission that he really couldn't tell the difference between what was the piano and what was the tuning and then delete that post a few hours later?

I suggest you read the complete thread. It's all there and doesn't need the deleted parts to be indefensible.

Constructive criticism-Yes.
Self serving, Ill considered boorish and unfounded carping,- a resounding No.
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Sample - 12/11/13 11:00 PM

When I first began piano tuning it was rare for a technician to tune for another or to seek out other tuners opinion of their work. Then some brave souls such as Jim Colemen Sr., Jack Caskey, and a few others I am forgetting at the moment would present programs where they tuned for the attendees. We have progressed in openness.

Thanks for posting the clip BDB.
Posted by: BDB

Re: Sample - 12/12/13 01:26 AM

Those of us who tune for performances are always putting our tunings on display, although it is usually fairly anonymous. I have tuned that piano for a movie, where I am fairly certain that I did not get credit. (I have not seen it, and heard it was not very good. The plot seemed stupid.) I will tune it one more time this year for New Year's Eve.

I got curious, and found that there are a number of videos with pianos that I had tuned on YouTube. Many of them are amateur recordings and they do not sound very good, although the tuning seems adequate. There are better recordings of many performances which remain locked in the vaults until who knows when, the archival recordings of performances.
Posted by: lluiscl

Re: Sample - 12/12/13 10:33 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
I have to sincerely question isaacs experience of this kind of work. He claims to know but his comments show a distinct lack of understanding. There's more of self promotion in his nit picking criticism. I would expect sympathy with the situation from a real fellow professional. He sounds to me like a really talented amateur who hangs around the profession and then totally falls apart when the real job has to be done. I've known quite a few.


rxd:
Was you drunk or what?
Posted by: rxd

Re: Sample - 12/12/13 11:04 AM

Originally Posted By: lluiscl
Originally Posted By: rxd
I have to sincerely question isaacs experience of this kind of work. He claims to know but his comments show a distinct lack of understanding. There's more of self promotion in his nit picking criticism. I would expect sympathy with the situation from a real fellow professional. He sounds to me like a really talented amateur who hangs around the profession and then totally falls apart when the real job has to be done. I've known quite a few.


rxd:
Was you drunk or what?


I've known a lot of people like you, too.

Go back and educate yourself with the details. It's about making crass judgements then admitting not enough knowledge of the situation and looking foolish.

Sound familiar?

Oh, and I don't have a reason to drink.
Posted by: lluiscl

Re: Sample - 12/12/13 11:08 AM

rxd... sounds like a model of car...
Posted by: Jeff Clef

Re: Sample - 12/12/13 12:20 PM

"...rxd... sounds like a model of car..."

lluis, if you can't support your argument by anything better than an outright ad hominem attack, you would do better to keep silent. It's not the kind of board where such is tolerated for long.
Posted by: rxd

Re: Sample - 12/12/13 12:26 PM

Originally Posted By: lluiscl
rxd... sounds like a model of car...


.......and faster than most.
Posted by: lluiscl

Re: Sample - 12/12/13 12:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
"...rxd... sounds like a model of car..."

lluis, if you can't support your argument by anything better than an outright ad hominem attack, you would do better to keep silent. It's not the kind of board where such is tolerated for long.


Yes, you are right.
But, FIRST, I think, Mr. rxd must clarify (apologize) his unjustified attacks against Mr. Olek.
Posted by: BDB

Re: Sample - 12/12/13 01:02 PM

I think Mr Oleg makes attacks on others all the time. It is hard to tell, because his writing is so unclear. Because of his poor writing, I consider everything he says to be unjustified, in the most literal sense of the word. I tend to ignore him, except when what he says may be construed as harmful, which is pretty often, unfortunately.

I do not understand what he said about the sustain of the piano. I think the sustain of that piano is about par for a 45 year old Kawai. New strings and hammers would help, I know, but they are not in the budget, except for those strings which have been replaced as they break, which do not count. I ignored his comment, but it seems to have poisoned other people's perception.
Posted by: rxd

Re: Sample - 12/12/13 02:05 PM

Originally Posted By: lluiscl
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
"...rxd... sounds like a model of car..."

lluis, if you can't support your argument by anything better than an outright ad hominem attack, you would do better to keep silent. It's not the kind of board where such is tolerated for long.


Yes, you are right.
But, FIRST, I think, Mr. rxd must clarify (apologize) his unjustified attacks against Mr. Olek.


Then, why didn't you simply say that in the first place?
Posted by: lluiscl

Re: Sample - 12/12/13 02:28 PM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: lluiscl
Originally Posted By: rxd
I have to sincerely question isaacs experience of this kind of work. He claims to know but his comments show a distinct lack of understanding. There's more of self promotion in his nit picking criticism. I would expect sympathy with the situation from a real fellow professional. He sounds to me like a really talented amateur who hangs around the profession and then totally falls apart when the real job has to be done. I've known quite a few.


rxd:
Was you drunk or what?


I've known a lot of people like you, too.



Really? Do you know me, TOO?
We can begin FIRST for this sentence.

(Me, and other, are waiting for your apologizes too, FIRST).
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: Sample - 12/12/13 02:54 PM

Originally Posted By: lluiscl
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
"...rxd... sounds like a model of car..."

lluis, if you can't support your argument by anything better than an outright ad hominem attack, you would do better to keep silent. It's not the kind of board where such is tolerated for long.


Yes, you are right.
But, FIRST, I think, Mr. rxd must clarify (apologize) his unjustified attacks against Mr. Olek.

Querulant alert.

Kees
Posted by: SMHaley

Re: Sample - 12/12/13 04:32 PM

Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: lluiscl
rxd... sounds like a model of car...


.......and faster than most.


And still with plastic parts.
Posted by: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: Sample - 12/12/13 10:56 PM

Maybe RXD is a new McLaren model. Bet that has gobs of carbon fiber in it!
Posted by: rxd

Re: Sample - 12/13/13 01:28 AM

Originally Posted By: SMHaley
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: lluiscl
rxd... sounds like a model of car...


.......and faster than most.


And still with plastic parts.


It's the plastic parts that are keeping me alive.
Posted by: rxd

Re: Sample - 12/13/13 02:35 AM

Originally Posted By: BDB
I think Mr Oleg makes attacks on others all the time. It is hard to tell, because his writing is so unclear. Because of his poor writing, I consider everything he says to be unjustified, in the most literal sense of the word. I tend to ignore him, except when what he says may be construed as harmful, which is pretty often, unfortunately.

I do not understand what he said about the sustain of the piano. I think the sustain of that piano is about par for a 45 year old Kawai. New strings and hammers would help, I know, but they are not in the budget, except for those strings which have been replaced as they break, which do not count. I ignored his comment, but it seems to have poisoned other people's perception.


Nobody in their right mind would criticise your tuning, we all know pianos that are doing good service in general purpose rooms with no budget for better maintenance. It's a credit to those pianos and their carers that they sound as good as they do.
Some of those rooms don't have a piano any more, obliging anyone using the hall to rent their own.

Great job. BDB
Posted by: rxd

Re: Sample - 12/13/13 03:11 AM

I am reminded of the number of halls t have not been charging separately for the use of the piano. When they do, it doesn't reflect true value when I tell them to consider and compare the cost of renting in if their piano was not made so readily and conveniently available.

There's no guarantee the extra income would be spent on piano maintenance.
And oh! The abuse those house pianos get.

(point of interest, it was published that the famous Wigmore hall was spending 16,000 P.A on piano maintenance a few years ago. Probably nearer 20 now. 2 x 9' concert instruments one or the other, whichever has been chosen gets daily attention and more plus servicing for both every 10-15 days. The five smaller dressing room and reception room instruments only get 5-6 times a year).