Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ?

Posted by: Olek

Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 07:21 AM

Just a question to piano tuners, essentially.

Could you try to shut down your wifi spot , or better have it shot by someone, and see if you notice less stress ?

I did, I just read about that study recently conducted on rats with very light exposure (under the official threshold)

See INERIS (industrial risk search)http://www.ineris.fr/centredoc/dp-anthomeo-version-definitive-1365002284.pdf

they where surprised themselves to see very clear effects even on very small levels.
They detected an effect on the energetic balance I just can witness of a better sleep but as I did shut down the modem myself cannot know for the physical effect I perceived

I have read that the head of a belgium mobile phone company stopped Wifi at his floor , and try to use phone lines himself

I'd like to hear about your point there - Of course I am fully in plaebo effect, but I am surprised, as I was when detecting something once my mobile phone is shut down before sleeping

Thanks for your feedback
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 09:18 AM



Hi Isaac,
I disabled the wifi in the modem a while back and never noticed any differences in sleep patterns.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 09:21 AM

Thanks for answering Dan ,I did but I use it and it was alive at night.

Officially only part of the sleep is modified, but without people noticing it, so I am possibly at 100% in placebo effect.

I feel a low stress once the modem is disabled, immediately.
Certainly out of range of the hearing
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 09:23 AM


I really don’t like living inside any type of electromagnetic field but it is difficult to get away from these days entirely.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 09:29 AM

it is surprising I did perceive some change, so I will make tests with my son shutting down the modem ... Anyway if only the idea that the modem is shot is enough to have a better sleep I am all for it;)
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 09:36 AM


Some will feel an effect while others may not.
Posted by: BDB

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 10:36 AM

Compared to the strength of radio waves we are exposed to from radio, television and any other number of other sources, wifi is nothing.
Posted by: pyropaul

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 10:50 AM

You might shut your own wifi modem, but what about your neighbour's? And there's still the same frequency radiowaves coming from cellphone networks. It's virtually impossible to shield yourself from radiation in this part of the spectrum unless you put yourself into a Faraday Cage. The placebo effect is very strong. The only true way to tell is to use a double-blind testing methodology (neither the tester not the testee know the state). In all tests that have been done with people who claim "electrosensitivity" to cellphones, none of them could actually tell the difference any more than a random choice of answer.

There is so much fear, uncertainty and doubt being promulgated these days that I find that more stressful than any of the supposed "radiation" effects. There's a lot of money being made on selling people "shields" for this or to "clean up" so-called "dirty" electricity. Sadly, there are a lot of people who are very suggestible and they will pay-up. Then the placebo effect works again as they are "cured" by these miraculous devices they bought.
Posted by: AndyJ

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 11:56 AM

I worked with a guy who was always ready to spend money on highly dubious items. One day he showed up wearing a big round pendant with a labyrinth-like pattern on it. I saw at a glance that it was a printed circuit card which would've cost less than a dollar to make. He'd paid $100 for it as an "EMF protection shield". I don't think the promotional materials mentioned this, but I'm pretty sure that in southwest Ohio where he lived, the item is also 100% effective as an elephant repellent.

-Andy
Posted by: Olek

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 12:20 PM

Thanks guys but I am not ready to buy any gadget, I just shut down my cell phone and wifi in my home at night (and the tv) the wifi from my neighbours is very weak here. Now I certainly live in cell phone antennas range, as many of us.

I will let you know if my testings provide any result. .

As an Italian engineer had recognized that the 12 years he passed with 6 hours a day a cell phone on his ear gives him a brain tumor, I would certainly understand that risk is not zero.

That said, watching the TV also raise my stress level wink
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 12:24 PM

Originally Posted By: BDB
Compared to the strength of radio waves we are exposed to from radio, television and any other number of other sources, wifi is nothing.


Bingo! Unless you live in a Faraday cage, RF is running through you at this very moment from a variety of sources.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 12:26 PM

Originally Posted By: pyropaul
You might shut your own wifi modem, but what about your neighbour's? And there's still the same frequency radiowaves coming from cellphone networks. It's virtually impossible to shield yourself from radiation in this part of the spectrum unless you put yourself into a Faraday Cage. The placebo effect is very strong. The only true way to tell is to use a double-blind testing methodology (neither the tester not the testee know the state). In all tests that have been done with people who claim "electrosensitivity" to cellphones, none of them could actually tell the difference any more than a random choice of answer.

There is so much fear, uncertainty and doubt being promulgated these days that I find that more stressful than any of the supposed "radiation" effects. There's a lot of money being made on selling people "shields" for this or to "clean up" so-called "dirty" electricity. Sadly, there are a lot of people who are very suggestible and they will pay-up. Then the placebo effect works again as they are "cured" by these miraculous devices they bought.


Exactly. Plus, many people hear the word "radiation" and go into a panic, thinking radio frequency radiation is the same as ionizing radiation. The only thing RF can do is cause localized heating of tissue, and even then, only in the hundreds of watts range. I really believe the .5 watts that is emitted by your cell phone does nothing adverse to you.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 12:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Olek

As an Italian engineer had recognized that the 12 years he passed with 6 hours a day a cell phone on his ear gives him a brain tumor, I would certainly understand that risk is not zero.

That said, watching the TV also raise my stress level wink



I would be interested in seeing scientific data that verifies that conclusion. To date, there is no scientific link between cell phones and brain tumors (that I'm aware of).

Like I said, we are constantly being bombarded by radio waves much stronger than wifi.
Posted by: BDB

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 12:44 PM

Turning off your cell phone does not reduce the amount of cellular radio waves. Most of it comes from the stationary antennas.
Posted by: Olek

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 01:03 PM

Sure but I just did it and felt something , located on my heart region.

As if a weight was taken off there


Placebo, placebo !
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 01:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Olek
Sure but I just did it and felt something , located on my heart region.

As if a weight was taken off there


Placebo, placebo !



Well, that is a different symptom. The fat lady finished singing and then sat down on your chest.
Posted by: Grandpianoman

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 08:37 PM

I wonder if this would help:


Posted by: David Jenson

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
I wonder if this would help:


That'll shield your ears from EMR stuff, but you're likely to loose your hearing.

Look on the bright side. You won't be able to hear your Dr. say you have a brain tumor.
Posted by: rnaple

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 10:51 PM

We would be foolish to not consider what all the radio waves that are being transmitted are doing to us. Probably not good.

Some friends told me about a friend of theirs who was paranoid about a nearby nuclear plant. This guy actually owned his own Geiger Counter. Carried it around with him all the time. They said he was a real pain with that thing. I told them to go buy some wicks for coleman lanterns. Leave them around his house and car. smile
Posted by: Horowitzian

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 10:57 PM

A friend of mine who owns a gauss meter figured out pretty conclusively that the refrigerator/freezer, clothes dryer, and nearby high voltage power lines are the most significant sources of e/m fields in a domestic setting.
Posted by: David Jenson

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 11:08 PM

I sleep with an aluminum foil (erroneously called tin foil) hat on. It makes my head sweat and itch a bit, but it protects me from my refrigerator EM, and the government can't read my mind or mess with my dreams. laugh
Posted by: rnaple

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/05/13 11:11 PM

I was involved in testing emf for this very reason. Worked under a couple engineers. They found the highest fields were from hair dryers. Then, things like blenders, vacuum cleaners. Cheaper appliances you use in your hand.
Outside power lines were nothing compared to this stuff. They found that the refrigerators, washers, dryers... no comparison to the others mentioned.
Posted by: miscrms

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/06/13 04:08 AM

Well that's a tricky one, and as this thread demonstrates a pretty polarizing issue. Lots of people like to worry about it, and lots of people like to make fun of those who worry about it. IMHO the reality is, like many of the things we are introducing into our daily environment we really have no idea what the long term health effects are.

FWIW I happen to be an EE with a background in microwave communications and radar systems, though I've been in fiber-optic microelectronics for the past ~10 years. That's not to say I pretend to be any sort of an expert on the health effects of EM radiation, I just know enough to realize that most of the arguments presented on the topic don't make much sense.

A couple of somewhat important points that are usually glossed over:

- The energy conveyed by an EM wave is directly proportional to its frequency. So for the same power level, a cell phone or wifi signal operating in a GHz band has about 10-1000 times more energy than TV/Radio signals. As mentioned motors/compressors etc in household appliance can create substantial amounts of EM radiation, but at 60Hz, these have about 83 million times less energy per watt than a 5GHz wifi signal.

- The power density of a transmitted EM wave typically decreases with the square of the distance from the source. So your own wifi base station 10' away is effectively about 1000 times more powerful than your neighbor's 300' away. Similarly a 50W cellphone base station a mile away produces about 1/15th the local power density of an 0.125W cell phone 1' away.

Combining these two points, the absorbed energy from a 50,000W 100MHz FM transmitter 5 miles away is roughly 1/300,000 that of an 0.125W 2GHz cell phone 1' foot away.

The power level of a wifi router is rather small compared to a cell phone, about 0.028W vs. 0.125W. It can be up to 2X in frequency, but energy is still lower and its usually not as close as your cellphone. However, your cellphone power is intermittent, it varies depending on signal strength (more power when weaker) and just checks in on the network periodically at low power unless in active use. Wifi is typically on all the time.

Does it concern me? Yes. Does their seem to be any solid evidence its harmful? No. Is it feasible that long term exposure to close sources of high frequency EM radiation could have long term effects on health or behavior? Probably. Have the studies been done to show beyond a reasonable doubt that they don't? No. Will they ever? Doubtful. Proving long term effects on large populations at low dosage is extremely difficult, and given how much money there is to be made on wireless technologies there is not much incentive.

FWIW I have wifi, use a cellphone, and only hide in our Faraday cage here at work occasionally wink

On the other hand, why not turn off your wifi and anything else you don't need at night? It may or may not make any difference, but you might as well save a little electricity smile

Rob
Posted by: miscrms

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/06/13 04:29 AM

I always used to get a kick out of the story one of the grey beards at my co-op used to tell about doing field testing of a microwave antenna system on an aircraft carrier in the North Atlantic. Apparently several times a day they'd have to go up and shoo the seamen on watch away from the antenna, because they had discovered if they stood right in the focal point it was nice and warm wink

Rob
Posted by: Olek

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/06/13 06:02 AM

May be the fishes liked that too. Thanks r you explanations. I just continue to notice a better sleep quality with all shut down.

The studies on risks are made by a state laboratory working on Industrial risk, even with some probing results, the regulations will be as hard to vote than laws to fight fiscal fraud to Luxemburg, Switzerland, Caiman Islands, etc..

WIFI is not allowed in some German schools (it may depend of landers) .

Of course searchers are approached by the cell phone companies, they are also interested in the results. Then they can also push some direction. Those things where in the classified secret range (and are yet) so it is indeed difficult to have good information.
Thank you for your explanations.

Btw I felt a "tick" in the central nevralgic point above my eyes when I powered on my cell phone today. Not a pain, something....
I suspect that this only helps to raise our stress level, if our body perceive that as agression..

I wil forward the English document, they believe that it is the regular peaks in some of the composites of radiations , that where responsible for the effect , as the level of exposure was very low (eating more, modified paradoxal sleep)..
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/06/13 06:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
A friend of mine who owns a gauss meter figured out pretty conclusively that the refrigerator/freezer, clothes dryer, and nearby high voltage power lines are the most significant sources of e/m fields in a domestic setting.


Yep! And this is easily verifiable by the interference to radio that these sources cause when they start to emit. A timer from a washing machine can send RF interference every 50Khz up and down the dial. As someone said in a reply earlier, turning off wifi does absolutely nothing to reduce your exposure to RF or electromagnetic fields.
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/06/13 06:49 AM

Originally Posted By: David Jenson
I sleep with an aluminum foil (erroneously called tin foil) hat on. It makes my head sweat and itch a bit, but it protects me from my refrigerator EM, and the government can't read my mind or mess with my dreams. laugh


Ok, thank you for causing me to spit tea all over my laptop. laugh
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/06/13 06:52 AM

Originally Posted By: miscrms
I always used to get a kick out of the story one of the grey beards at my co-op used to tell about doing field testing of a microwave antenna system on an aircraft carrier in the North Atlantic. Apparently several times a day they'd have to go up and shoo the seamen on watch away from the antenna, because they had discovered if they stood right in the focal point it was nice and warm wink

Rob


Those high gain microwave dish antennas can definitely generate heat, and standing next to one while transmitting can definitely expose you to levels well beyond the MPE (maximum permissible exposure). And yeah, they will definitely heat you up!
Posted by: Olek

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/12/13 06:47 PM

BTW the study is in English and in line

http://link.springer.com/journal/11356
(I will have a better link soon)

It is apparently possible to hear a frequncy due to the WIfi plus cell phones, it have been recorded (with special mikes to record high frequencies)

They think it can be a partials (15-16 Khz range) of 36-80 Khz frequencies.

It could mix with the WIfi and create other tones, also.
Posted by: wouter79

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/14/13 09:57 AM

There are studies suggesting dangerous effects of EM fields, in spite of absence of good physical explanations for it.

For example, living near power lines

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4602315.stm

It's hard to believe this is all due to a placebo effect.

There is some evidence that there might be long term risks from using cell phones

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_radiation_and_health
Posted by: Loren D

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/14/13 12:10 PM

Originally Posted By: wouter79
There are studies suggesting dangerous effects of EM fields, in spite of absence of good physical explanations for it.

For example, living near power lines

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4602315.stm

It's hard to believe this is all due to a placebo effect.

There is some evidence that there might be long term risks from using cell phones

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_radiation_and_health


First off....a cell phone transmits about anywhere between .5 and 1 watt of power, which is negligible. My handheld ham radio transceiver puts out 5 watts, which is nearly a 7 dB increase in power over a cell phone. There really is no conclusive evidence linking cell phone radiation to health hazards. There is a lot of FEAR (False Evidence Appearing Real), and the news media seems to love picking up on it.

Second....people hear the word "radiation" and freak out, thinking of ionizing radiation (like a nuclear plant). The only thing RF can do is heat tissue in strong enough amounts (think about your microwave oven), but that is at microwave frequencies and at very high wattages (my microwave oven operates at 1300 watts. I do steer clear of it when it's operating).

And third, Wikipedia. Not a reliable source of information, but that's a whole other thread! smile
Posted by: Chris Storch

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/14/13 02:23 PM

And don't forget, wind turbines give you herpes! Stay away from them!

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert...-health-hazards

C-
Posted by: wouter79

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/14/13 02:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: wouter79
There are studies suggesting dangerous effects of EM fields, in spite of absence of good physical explanations for it.

For example, living near power lines

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4602315.stm

It's hard to believe this is all due to a placebo effect.

There is some evidence that there might be long term risks from using cell phones

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_radiation_and_health


First off....a cell phone transmits about anywhere between .5 and 1 watt of power, which is negligible. My handheld ham radio transceiver puts out 5 watts, which is nearly a 7 dB increase in power over a cell phone. There really is no conclusive evidence linking cell phone radiation to health hazards. There is a lot of FEAR (False Evidence Appearing Real), and the news media seems to love picking up on it.

Second....people hear the word "radiation" and freak out, thinking of ionizing radiation (like a nuclear plant). The only thing RF can do is heat tissue in strong enough amounts (think about your microwave oven), but that is at microwave frequencies and at very high wattages (my microwave oven operates at 1300 watts. I do steer clear of it when it's operating).

And third, Wikipedia. Not a reliable source of information, but that's a whole other thread! smile


First, did you read what I wrote? If not, please read before replying. If so, why do you come with physics arguments?

Physics is just a MODEL. Leukaemia counts are facts.

Before starting more discussion: we're of course talking correlations here and it may be that something else is going on. Correlations do not prove causality.

Second, I'm missing what you're trying to say. Who is freaking out here? Again you're putting down physics arguments.

Third, you don't have to trust wikipedia, that's what they give references for. Again please read it if you really want to make meaningful statements.

Posted by: Olek

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/14/13 05:18 PM

Originally Posted By: miscrms
Well that's a tricky one, and as this thread demonstrates a pretty polarizing issue. Lots of people like to worry about it, and lots of people like to make fun of those who worry about it. IMHO the reality is, like many of the things we are introducing into our daily environment we really have no idea what the long term health effects are.

FWIW I happen to be an EE with a background in microwave communications and radar systems, though I've been in fiber-optic microelectronics for the past ~10 years. That's not to say I pretend to be any sort of an expert on the health effects of EM radiation, I just know enough to realize that most of the arguments presented on the topic don't make much sense.

A couple of somewhat important points that are usually glossed over:

- The energy conveyed by an EM wave is directly proportional to its frequency. So for the same power level, a cell phone or wifi signal operating in a GHz band has about 10-1000 times more energy than TV/Radio signals. As mentioned motors/compressors etc in household appliance can create substantial amounts of EM radiation, but at 60Hz, these have about 83 million times less energy per watt than a 5GHz wifi signal.

- The power density of a transmitted EM wave typically decreases with the square of the distance from the source. So your own wifi base station 10' away is effectively about 1000 times more powerful than your neighbor's 300' away. Similarly a 50W cellphone base station a mile away produces about 1/15th the local power density of an 0.125W cell phone 1' away.

Combining these two points, the absorbed energy from a 50,000W 100MHz FM transmitter 5 miles away is roughly 1/300,000 that of an 0.125W 2GHz cell phone 1' foot away.

The power level of a wifi router is rather small compared to a cell phone, about 0.028W vs. 0.125W. It can be up to 2X in frequency, but energy is still lower and its usually not as close as your cellphone. However, your cellphone power is intermittent, it varies depending on signal strength (more power when weaker) and just checks in on the network periodically at low power unless in active use. Wifi is typically on all the time.

Does it concern me? Yes. Does their seem to be any solid evidence its harmful? No. Is it feasible that long term exposure to close sources of high frequency EM radiation could have long term effects on health or behavior? Probably. Have the studies been done to show beyond a reasonable doubt that they don't? No. Will they ever? Doubtful. Proving long term effects on large populations at low dosage is extremely difficult, and given how much money there is to be made on wireless technologies there is not much incentive.

FWIW I have wifi, use a cellphone, and only hide in our Faraday cage here at work occasionally wink

On the other hand, why not turn off your wifi and anything else you don't need at night? It may or may not make any difference, but you might as well save a little electricity smile

Rob


most normal answer to me

The study about WIfi on young rats show modifications of their behavior, it is in no way said that the brain is cooked or irradied, just that they discover perturbations in sleep, alimentation and behavior with thos young rats.

ALso, if you put a cell phone on eggs ready to give chicken, theones under the cell phone do not eclose.

Using too much a cell phone on our ear cannot be good.

For the rest, I noticed how much more relaxed I am since all those equipment's are shut down at night (and for the WIfi, I perceive it if my son forget to shut it down.

I also have meet someone that developed an hypersensitivity to the cell phone antennas, due to a long exposure in front of one misplaced one. He lost memory, could not drive, had headaches,

Those sort of things are difficult to proove, of course.

Then I am not having FEAR, I am just cautious with the things I do not have enough information on (as the products that kill the bees, pollution and the bad eating habits based on junk food that some are trying to sell us as the best way to be happy)

The system itself had some success, there are numerous place yet in France, where in case of lack of transportation (no gas for instance) , 2 weeks later the supermarkets will be empty, but there are no other means to find food.








Posted by: TimR

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/15/13 08:31 AM

While I don't see how RF from a wifi would be detectable by a human, it's not impossible the box makes some kind of mechanical noise that you can hear.

Remember when the old tube tvs had a flyback transformer that ran at 15734 Hz? When I was a kid I could hear it. At my age those frequencies are gone forever, of course, so I couldn't tell you if a flat screen makes noise or not.
Posted by: Mark R.

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/15/13 09:23 AM

Originally Posted By: miscrms
The energy conveyed by an EM wave is directly proportional to its frequency.


That's only part of the story. The equation,
E = h*v (v being the letter "nu" denoting frequency)
reflects the energy per photon.

To make any sensible comparison, you have to look at waves of equal amplitude, over the same time-span.

Or, to eliminate time as a factor, simply compare power in stead of energy:
P = E/t

So, if you have a low-frequency and high-frequency wave of the same amplitude, the high-frequency wave has more photons/cycles per second, i.e. more energy per second, i.e. more power.

Therefore a more accurate statement would be:

The energy conveyed by an EM wave per unit time (i.e. its power) is directly proportional to its frequency.

But in your next statement, you are specifically looking at two waves with the same power:

Originally Posted By: miscrms
So for the same power level, a cell phone or wifi signal operating in a GHz band has about 10-1000 times more energy than TV/Radio signals.


No. For the same amplitude, a higher frequency has more energy (or power). But for the same power level, as you have stated, energy (per unit time) is the same for both waves: P = E/t, i.e. E = P*t.

A 1 W wave carries 1 J/s, irrespective of the frequency. So, the energy (per time) in a 1 W microwave signal is the same as in a 1 W radio signal: 1 J/s. Their amplitudes, however, are vastly different.
Posted by: AndyJ

Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? - 04/15/13 10:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: miscrms
The energy conveyed by an EM wave is directly proportional to its frequency.


That's only part of the story.

....For the same amplitude, a higher frequency has more energy (or power). But for the same power level, as you have stated, energy (per unit time) is the same for both waves: P = E/t, i.e. E = P*t.

A 1 W wave carries 1 J/s, irrespective of the frequency. So, the energy (per time) in a 1 W microwave signal is the same as in a 1 W radio signal: 1 J/s. Their amplitudes, however, are vastly different.

Thanks for the clear explanation. I knew that claim couldn't be right but I didn't know the physics.

-Andy