Tunelab or Verituner?

Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/19/04 10:52 AM

My old Accutuner II just died and so now I need to replace it with something new. While I would be most familiar with an Accutuner III, the cost is the highest and from what I've gathered, it isn't really the most advanced tool and it only does one thing.

The Verituner seems a bit pricey too and I am skeptical about something so new. (How long will it be before a newer version comes out?) It is also fairly bulky.

I seem to be leaning in the direction of a Pocket PC with TuneLab softwear. Would this serve a full time, professional technician well? Could I also throw away my old fashioned appointment book and pocket calculator too? Would a good Pocket PC do it all?

I really don't need an electronically generated program. I never used the FAC. I always tuned by ear or direct interval and stored my results but if TuneLab does a good job, I would be willing to try putting the correction figures for my EBVT in it and see how it does. I would also like to try Ron Koval's temperaments.

If a pocket PC would serve me well, which one would you recommend? I don't want to buy a cheap one that will break down and I also want one with some decent run time and which could be recharged in my car.

I'm looking for utility, small size, versatility, affordable price, reliability and longevity.
Posted by: RonTuner

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/19/04 01:12 PM

Hi Bill,

Oooooh, bummer! It's can be frustrating when technology fails... My laptop finally died, so I'm looking into data-recovery options now. (No matter how much I backed up, there's always something else I forgot!)

It sounds like you've already decided on a Pocket PC \:\)
I personally prefer the Verituner tunings, but it's hard to resist the lure of the smaller package. (I'm guessing Dave is working on a ppc version for the Verituner, though that doesn't help you now.)
Yes, Tunelab satisfies a whole group of full-time type techs. You should be able to do the same kind of direct-measurement with Tunelab that you are already familiar with. I haven't used the pocket PC version much, I just recently downloaded the trial version to do some research for an article. (I'll try to buy it too, Bob!) Like any of the machines, once you learn how to "guide" the tunings, by using the custom functions, the tunings will be a closer match to what you expect to hear. It has a bunch of nice "toys" and a really easy to read screen. (nice work, Bob!)

There is a ton of options for the Pocket PC platform, and yes, it's possible to go without paper. I'm still "married" to the Palm platform for all that stuff. I just have to sit down and decide what program to use... I hear Time and Chaos is a good one for scheduling and client data management.

Good luck!

Ron Koval
Posted by: Jens Schlosser

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/19/04 01:47 PM

Bill,

I have never used the verituner but have been using the TuneLab software for almost 2 years now. I run it on a Casio Cassiopeia E-125G Pocket PC which I bought used for less then 150 Euro 2 years ago. I can reccomend this setup. This pocket pc is small but very reliable.

If you want to tune several pianos a day you'd either have to charge the battery in your car or use the AC adaptor.

The screen is big enough, the scope-simulation is very precise. I think that the software gives very good results, which can only be surpassed by a very very good aural tuning.

Of course, using this machine will take a little longer because you'll have to record some sample keys first to calculate a matching tuning curve. But once the curve is calculated, you can save it and reload it any time in the future, which is very nice if you tune the same piano twice.

This software provides a good platform for experimenting with several stretchings (you can specify the way you want to tune the octaves in the bass and treble) and also use custom temperaments.

I've never tried the overpull function for pitch raising, but it's worth mentioning. The same for the split-scale modus, which is supposed to give better results in some baby grands. I never used that feature, because I make adjustments (using my ears) when I hear something different.

The pocket PC will let you store a database of your customers (make sure to do reasonable backups on your regular pc, since the pocket pc doesn't have a hard disk and if you should ever forget to charge the battery and the additional "safety" battery happens to be low, you might loose all data).

As an add-on you can playback mp3-files (if you'd like to) while you drive to the next customer. All you need is an additional memory card.

I have to say again that from my point of view the best possible tunings can only be achieved aurally, but I have succesfully tuned for some very picky piano players (using the TuneLab software) which complained about some local tuners but didn't have complaints with the electronic tuning. They described it as clean and smooth troughout the compass.


Don't hesitate to ask additional questions.

Best regards,
Jens
Posted by: TomtheTuner

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/19/04 05:16 PM

Bill,,, Buy the Sat 111 and be happy and productive.
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/19/04 09:00 PM

Thanks Ron and Jens and sorry, Tom, I went with Tunelab. I talked to Robert Scott today on the phone. He was very nice and helpful and also wrote me an e-mail which would help me use the Tunelab system in the way in which I had become accustomed using the SAT II.

I got an HP Pocket PC, price, $379 plus a hardshell case and automobile charger. I also paid the extra $99 for a contract that would replace the unit anytime in the next 2 years if it were lost or damaged in any way. The salesperson was very helpful, he turned out to be a musician himself, a pianist and bassist and was quite interested in the application I intended to use the pocket PC for.

I have seen that I can also put all of my appointments on it and use the calculator to figure sales tax. I will be able to compose short e-mails and play games if I am in a situation where I have to wait for a while. The addition of a keyboard and battery operated printer would turn the whole operation into a truly portable office system.

Thank you for your testimonial, Jens, your English is impeccable. I just happen to have a student from Germany living with me for the year. My German is getting close to being useful. I am singing the Brahms German Requiem the first weekend of December and although I have sung it before, my renewed interest in the German language makes it a whole new adventure.

I was also more than pleased to see that when I pressed the "tools" box on the Tunelab program, my own name came up as a choice in how to tune the piano. Those figures look like they would make stronger contrasts than I actually do, so I'll just have to see what the results are for myself.

I'm really glad I took the plunge and find this new tool to be quite fascinating with unlimited possibilities for use. And it is SO SMALL!!!! (about the size of a package of cigarettes!)
Posted by: Jens Schlosser

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/20/04 07:25 AM

Bill,

thank your for your friendly words and congratulations on your new pocket pc!

It would be very interesting to learn from you how you like the tunings it generates and which methods you choose to make it best suiting to your demands. I have seen "your" temperament file in the temperaments folder too, but haven't used it so far. The offset numbers looked like the would produce a weird sound, and I think I saw some different calculations for ETD's somwhere on the internet, maybe even on your site. I'd be very interested in hearing from you, if the TuneLabs's EBVT is really how you meant it, or if it needs to be corrected. I might try it in the future.

So, why don't you come back in a couple of weeks and post your experience? I'm sure others will enjoy reading it as well.

Best regards,
Jens
Posted by: Bob

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/20/04 04:42 PM

Bill Wrote: I'm looking for utility, small size, versatility, affordable price, reliability and longevity.

My tuning fork is cheap, small, portable, doesn't need power, and still good after 20 years. Just needs a pitch check up now and again.

It seems to fit all your requirements to the letter. How bout just tuning by ear again and save $$$ ????
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/20/04 08:07 PM

I considered tuning by ear for a while. After all, I tuned exclusively by ear for over 20 years before I got the Accu-Tuner and even then, it took me a good two years before it was of any benefit to me at all. I kept saying to myself, "I can do it faster, better and cheaper with my $3.00 tuning fork, why do I need this $1200.00 encumberence to my work?"

But after becoming accustomed to using the ETD and being able to use it to my advantage, it is much more highly stressful to go back to tuning only by ear. I still tune almost all of my wound strings by ear and often do the 7th octave aurally and of course, the unisons too. But the hardest work is in pitch correction, temperament and the crafting of octaves in the 5th and 6th octave range which the ETD helps do quickly, easily, with earplugs in. To me, the very most important value of an ETD is its ablilty to reduce stress and therefore allow me to do and earn more.

I have read of many people who don't have good aural skills and barely earn a living tuning pianos who have multiple ETD's. They've tried and bought them all. I got a lot of milage out of the SAT II I bought in 1991 and could have just had the battery replaced but I have realized that even though it served me well, it is an obsolete piece of equipment. I have heard many good reports about the Verituner but it would have cost nearly a week's worth of earnings and is frankly too big and is only good for tuning.

The pocket PC will replace not only my old, bulky ETD but my bulky appointment book and pocket calculator as well. It is about the size of a pack of cigarettes or a wallet and is amazingly versitile and costs less than a day's earnings. So will the softwear. Altogether, only about a day and a half's worth of earnings. It can construct temperament ideas which can really only be crafted with an ETD. This may not be well understood by aural only tuners but I liken it to the fact that I know what a straight line or a perfect circle looks like but I need a ruler or a form to be able to draw one. To do it free handed would be virtually impossible.

The ETD can become an extension of the mind to a person who knows what he/she wants from it. Of course, many people will only want or dare to use the default settings but I will never use those just as I never used the FAC program of the Accu-Tuner. I tell the ETD what to do, it does not tell me.

And yes, Jens, I will certainly report back about how the various ways I will use TuneLab work out. I am always amused with the people who think that what I do must produce "wierd", strange or unusual sounds from the piano. Quite the contrary. The combination of techniques I use produce a piano which sounds more in tune with itself and is more musically satisfying to the ear than standard practice (the default settings) does.

Of course, you may think that is just my opinion but as any service provider would, I react to the feedback of my customers and give them what they say they like best. So, I do use my EBVT and unique way of constructing octaves on most pianos I tune because it almost always gets the most favorable reaction from my customers.

A good example occurred very recently. I did a day long preparation of a Steinway D concert grand for a nearby city's dedication of a newly restored auditorium. (It is beautiful, it looks like Frank Lloyd Wright did it). I had an old program I did for that piano several years ago but with a new regulation and voicing in a new hall put together with the fact that my own art is always improving and refining itself, I made a new program for that piano.

I spent three hours alone tuning the piano and programming the ETD using a combination of aural and direct interval tuning. (It was badly off pitch (sharp) and out of tune, so part of the work was just getting the pitch corrected). If I were to post the actual figures I came up with as I have done previously on Pianotech, I would have about a dozen responses telling me I need to be medicated and how the way I "stretch the !#%*&! out of the octaves" would give everyone a headache, how this is unethical, possibly illegal *behavior* and so on...

But the fact is that I was told the piano would be used that (Thursday) night only for a rehearsal of some sort. I finished my job and fortunately there was a young pianist there who obliged to play some examples while I went back to where the accoustic technicians were working to hear how it sounded. The pianist beamed with delight. The sound engineer told me that he had a very good sense of when a piano sounds in tune or not and that as I was tuning those higher notes, I was getting them "just right" to his ear when most piano tuners he had heard tuned "flat".

Of course, I appreciated that comment but the supreme one came about a month later. I was told that night I worked that Tony Bennett would be coming on Saturday for a black tie evening. "His pianist is a Yamaha artist, so they are bringing a Yamaha piano and a tuner from Chicago, so we won't be needing you for that event", they said.

I was disappointed but accepted what they said only to hear later from the chairman of the board of directors, "Oh, didn't anyone tell you? Tony Bennett and his pianist saw that Steinway (also nicely polished by the young man I had hired to do that for me) and wanted to try it. They both liked it so much that they decided to use it" (instead of the default tuned Yamaha).

They used it even without me coming that day to touch it up. I have read recently that the way they teach tuning and octave stretching at the Yamaha factory in Japan is very strict and in my opinion, flat and dead as a day old pancake.

The moral of the story is that there has to be a point at which you let go of what is supposed to be theoretically correct and go with what sounds like real music. Your ear must be the guide but a good ETD can help you acheive your goals.
Posted by: Jens Schlosser

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/21/04 08:19 AM

Bill,

maybe I didn't express myself correctly. I don't think, that your EBVT temperament will produce a weird sound. I haven't heard it so far, I haven't tried it so far. I can't know what it sounds. So if I would claim that the EBVT sounds weird this would be a prejudge and quite the opposite of what I really tink. I have very much respect for people who have an open minded attitude and do research or trial and error on such things like temperaments in order to improve the equal temperament, whereas other people claim that there was nothing to improve.

My post basically was refering to the offset numbers in the TuneLab EBVT file and whether they are correct or not, because I think that I have seen some different numbers somewhere, which also claimed to be EBVT, but I can't remember the source.

Best regards,
Jens
Posted by: RonTuner

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/23/04 08:05 PM

Oh Bill,

I forgot to mention that there is a forum set up for tunelab users. Check the website... I think it is www.tunelab-world.com

Ron Koval
Posted by: FrankieB

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/27/04 04:35 PM

I have the sat III and i find that it works well, but i'am looking at other ETC's just to see how they work in comparison. I have seen the Reburn tuner on a lap top and it seems to work well, but i feel the lap top is too much to carry. I have also looked into tune lab and I'am thinking on trying their Pocket PC I just purchased a HP 2214 6 months ago to store customer info-schedule and contact info storage.
It works really well, so I'am looking forward to trying Tune Lab. I am definately going to research the ETC's at the next PTG convention/workshop.
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/27/04 07:20 PM

Just download the free trial version. The maker encourages you to do that. I'll be reporting my experiences as soon as I'm ready to. Using a laptop to tune a piano always seemed way too cumbersome. Now, even the SAT II & III and Verituner seem way too big in comparison to a pocket PC.

Reyburn's system can also be used with a pocket PC and has been available that way for some years now.
Posted by: velopresto

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 11/01/04 10:36 PM

Bill,

I assume you bought an IPAQ 2215 to house your tunelab. I have the same setup. It has been the best investment I have ever made. I use the calendar and contact functions to keep track of appointments and customers(my handwriting is not my best feature....:-) I got a handy tip from Bill Spurlock for finding my way around: Mapopolis. It's a map program that you can subscribe to for around 35$ a year, I believe. You can download as many maps as you want to, and the features on it are pretty amazing: easy to use zoom, screen that is easily scrolled with stylus, and many things I haven't even tried yet.

As for backup, my old one recently died. Everything I needed for my new IPAQ was right there on my laptop and easily reloadable thanks to Active Sync. Another backup tip: SD cards. They slip right in the slot on top of the unit. You can get cards with all kinds of space on there. The card I bought has half a gig, which will store ten times the information I can store in the pocket pc. You can set it to automatically back up everything in the handheld at a specified time and date.

Tunelab is a great program, particularly for pitch raises. That you can see the spike of each individual string is really helpful and allows for less time spent shifting mutes in strings. And Mr. Scott is quite helpful.

For those of you who are really anti-machine, understand that if you don't know what a good tuning is supposed to sound like, no ETD in the world will help you be a good tuner. It all comes down to what it sounds like, not what it LOOKS like on the screen.

My two cents,

Dave Stahl
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 11/04/04 04:19 PM

Thank you, Dave. As it turns out, I was a bit overwhelmed by not only the Pocket PC itself but the whole Tunelab program. No way could I just go out the next day and use it. After all, it took me 2 years to learn to use the SAT II before it was of any benefit to me. But I know that what I bought was a valuable tool. This is the very busiest time of year, six tunings today alone. Fortunately, my SAT II resurrected itself after remaining plugged in for two days. I am able to use it as I have been for so many years. I just take it in each night and plug it in and it works fine.

I had someone over last weekend to tutor me and we made a little progress but nowhere near enough that I feel confident yet in using the device on the job. But I can and do see the potential. I hope to have the whole system be my appointment book, calculator and ETD by Jan 1.

I also talked to Mr. Scott and he was the kind of person I can work with. Our PTG meeting next Tuesday is a kind of "show & tell" session where we are supposed to literally show and tell what is new to work with. My shoulder bag that has everything I usually need and pocket PC with Tunelab will be my contribution. Meanwhile, my old SAT II is working fine but I will be glad to retire it as soon as I feel comfortable doing so.
Posted by: velopresto

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 11/04/04 07:56 PM

Bill,

Don't forget to get a stand for your Pocket PC from Spurlock Tools. It's a really handy way to attach it to or rest it on a piano.

Dave Stahl
Posted by: ben_h

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 11/20/04 02:13 PM

I have download tunelabPro and after download when I try to run the setup it give me a message saying “Corrupt Installation Detected “. Can anyone help please \:\) ?
Thanks
Posted by: Robert Scott

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 11/20/04 02:40 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ben_h:
...after download when I try to run the setup it gives me a message saying ?Corrupt Installation Detected ?...[/b]
That message means that the download was incomplete. You need to download it again so that you get exactly 360,528 bytes.

Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties
Posted by: john grant

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 01/14/07 03:50 PM

OK I'm not a tuner, but I like my piano to be in tune ALWAYS. I'm trying to decide between TL and Verituner. I know there's a difference in the way in which they applly inharmonicity readings to the task of tuning. But I don't know really what that difference is, and what it amounts to in real terms.

Can anyone express the distinction in avowedly technopeasantish terms?

John
Posted by: John Dutton

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 01/14/07 07:25 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by john grant:
OK
Can anyone express the distinction in avowedly technopeasantish terms?
[/b]
The Verituner can set the tuning curve without a separate measuring step. Other than that, it measures partials like Tunelab (or vice versa) and sets a tuning curve. From a beginner standpoint for default type settings, or from the standpoint of measuring an existing tuning on an instrument for replication purposes, they function more or less the same.

I am a piano tuner and I chose Tunelab for pocket pc-or in this case my pda phone. I like it but YMMV.
Posted by: john grant

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 01/14/07 08:42 PM

I read somewhere that UNLIKE TL, Verituner listens to "ALL" relevant partials on "EVERY NOTE" as it tunes. So the argument goes that this produces a "more natural" tuning; that Verituner more closely emulates what a tuner does; and that Verituner actually results in a quite different result than one would get using TL.

Is this claim true? And if it is true, would it be significant for non-tuners such as myself?

John
Posted by: RonTuner

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 01/15/07 12:25 AM

Yes, there would be a significant difference.

You are looking for a tool - since you do not have the temperament aural tuning skills, a tool that you want to generate the best tuning calculation as possible - for you to follow. I'd go with the Verituner in a heartbeat.

This may help explain one main difference. No matter how many notes measured, Tunelab, RCT or the SAT find a linear (smooth) tuning curve of a single partial to overlay on the piano to best match those measurements.... Imagine some dots above the line and some below the line, but the average all evens out...

As I understand it, Verituner attempts to adjust each and every note of the curve based on all the measurements taken as well as the strength of the individual sounding partials to determine a tuning. The custom tuning function allows for adjustments using everyday ear skills - such as determining if the single, double, triple and quad octaves are in the right place.
Posted by: John Dutton

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 01/15/07 12:00 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by RonTuner:
Yes, there would be a significant difference.

This may help explain one main difference. No matter how many notes measured, Tunelab, RCT or the SAT find a linear (smooth) tuning curve of a single partial to overlay on the piano to best match those measurements.... Imagine some dots above the line and some below the line, but the average all evens out...

As I understand it, Verituner attempts to adjust each and every note of the curve based on all the measurements taken as well as the strength of the individual sounding partials to determine a tuning. The custom tuning function allows for adjustments using everyday ear skills - such as determining if the single, double, triple and quad octaves are in the right place. [/b]
All of the electronic devices measure inharmonicity in some way and generate a smooth tuning curve. Verituner may then adjust the curve on-the-fly as it were or better said continually adjusts the calculated tuning curve but I don't know as I haven't read the computer code. I think the Railsback curve alluded to is interesting but not definitive.

Tunelab and I am sure RCT register all of the partials of a sounding note as well. They do place the partial the user has determined as ideal on a smooth curve. Also if you don't like where the curve is you can change the partial style or even change the style on the wing too thereby creating a different curve. The onus is then on the tuner to listen and determine what sounds best.

If one is tuning-using for instance 4:1 octaves-I wouldn't think it would be advisable to have one note in the middle suddenly using 8:1 or 6:4 or whatever. That wouldn't be a smooth progression at all so I doubt whether Verituner arbitrarily changes tuning partials for a note here or there. And as I said, Tunelab listens to all the partials all the time as well. But you only tune to one partial not all of them-the one you selected in your ratio style.

At any rate this may really be a Coke vs Pepsi or Ford vs Chevy argument-especially for someone who has not been trained yet to set a pin.
Posted by: RonTuner

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 01/15/07 03:15 PM

"Tunelab and I am sure RCT register all of the partials of a sounding note as well. They do place the partial the user has determined as ideal on a smooth curve"

Nope. Read the manuals again. While they are able to measure a number of partials either during the measuring phase, or during the spectrum analyzer, during tuning, only the targeted partial is driving the spinner, bars, or lights.
Posted by: John Dutton

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 01/15/07 04:30 PM

Mea culpa. I downloaded and read the manual for the Verituner. I am still happy with my setup. Your mileage may vary.

I also think it's best for Mr. Grant to get a few tuning lessons from someone rather than think purchasing a $1700 machine or $340 program is going to accomplish what he wants.
Posted by: JMichaelWilson

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 05/06/09 11:45 AM

Can you get the Time or Chaos versions for a laptop? I need a scheduling/bookkeeping program for my tuning business?
Thanks,
JMichael Wilson
Posted by: Hop

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 05/07/09 11:21 AM

I see that the Pocket PC option has been selected by many.

I suggest that if you haven't already examined the netbook option, that you might prefer it. Price is about the same, size is only slightly larger, and it has a useable keyboard.

I'm not suggesting it over the Pocket PC; I'm just encouraging potential users to look at the netbook alternatives before purchase. Netbooks may be more worthwhile for those who do email, scheduling, etc. in addition to tunings.

Hop
Posted by: CC2 and Chopin lover

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 05/07/09 01:05 PM

I'm a little confused by the previous comments in this thread. The implication seems to be that you cannot purchase Verituner for a Pocket PC. I purchased the software from their website and downloaded it onto one of the recommended HP Pocket PCs. It works incredibly well. I loaded Ron's "All-4-One" and "Concert default" styles and Bill's EBVT III temperament and use them together with terrific results. Each note is individually analyzed, and re-analyzed in each subsequent tuning. I find it helps me most in getting excellent results in the high treble section. Additionally, as new versions of the software are released, you can download them for free.
Posted by: Hop

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 05/07/09 07:58 PM

Yes, my understanding is that Verituner looks at many (all?) the partials and does some sort of averaging. They claim or imply that this more closely emulates aural tuning.

The Tunelab Pro, per my reading of the manual, only looks at one partial, which can be selected and which can be changed on the fly or permanently.

But I do have a question about Tunelab which puzzles me. The program allows various "ocataves" to be set for different parts of the keyboard. For example, one of these is 6:3. I see where many of the lower notes are tuned by the 6th partial (only). But how does that relate to a 6:3 octave?

Hop
Posted by: Gregor

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 05/08/09 05:29 AM

Originally Posted By: CC2 and Chopin lover
Additionally, as new versions of the software are released, you can download them for free.


Yes, but there are no updates frown

Gregor
Posted by: johnlewisgrant

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/12/09 11:46 AM

I'm revisiting this question, after all these years!!!
Am I right in thinking that tunelab produces a smooth tuning stretch, whereas verituner is supposed to provide, in addition to the basic stretch (based on IH measurements) more subtle measurements for each note off smooth stretch curve where necesary to achieve a more natural tuning???

JG
Posted by: JBE

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/12/09 03:24 PM

That is correct. IMO and from experience the VT box does a better job of this than VT Pocket.
Posted by: Jeff A. Smith, RPT

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/12/09 06:14 PM

Hi Byron,

Do you have and use both? I'm wondering what you think of the pocket version's display. Is it more stable than the box's?

What kind of differences have you noticed in the tunings you get from each?

Thanks,

Jeff
Posted by: RonTuner

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/13/09 12:18 AM

The ppc has a smoothing function for the spinner and seems to react a little quicker. Even though it is smaller, it seems clearer to me. I use both. The box stays at school and the ppc travels to all my outside tunings.

Honestly, I prefer the ppc with the ease of file function and screen taps over the buttons on the box. I haven't spent a lot of time trying to see if they calculate the same tunings. I do remember Dave Carpenter telling me he was trying to decide what to leave out in the ppc version because it couldn't quite do everything the box did... I did try a slower ppc first and it wasn't up to the task (dell x5) It left a lot of partials out - and that's one of the big reasons to use Verituner - the multi-partial approach to tuning! Any machine that runs at 624Mhz (I think) does just fine.


Ron Koval
chicagoland
Posted by: JBE

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/13/09 12:23 AM

I started with the box years ago and have always been very very happy with the tunings. I bought a SAT III several years ago as a back up but loved it so much that I started to use it more. A year or so ago I bought VT Pocket thinking it would be as good as the box but soon realized that I didn't like the results as much as the box.

I've found the display to be the same as the VT100 but the VT100 for me does a much better, more accurate tuning. I actually use the SAT III most of the time now anyway. I love the speed of the SAT III, the durability and long battery life. I use the VT100 once in a while for certain situations like where a one pass tuning is necessary.
Posted by: Gregor

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/13/09 05:45 AM

Why should the VT box bring other results than the ppc version - aside from using an underpowerd ppc?

I downloaded the tunelab demo version and compared the results with the VT ppc version. I like the Verituner results much more. With Tunelab even the octave A3-A4 was too narrow for my ears and for the VT as well with 2 pianos (a Kawai CX5 and a Wendl & Lung 122). Within the temperament the differences between both systems were up to 1.8 cents. On a Grotrian upright (110 cm) both systems were quite identical in the temperament.

Gregor
Posted by: Cashley

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/13/09 06:50 AM

How is the customer service of VT ?

Do they normally reply to emails ? After more than 48 hours, I'm still waiting for VT to reply my email.
Posted by: JBE

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/13/09 06:09 PM

The customer service has always been very good when I've needed it in the past.
Posted by: johnlewisgrant

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/13/09 08:27 PM

Another thought.... I wonder whether or not Tunelab can be used (by the novice one-piano-tuner who just wants to keep his own piano in perfect tune ALL the time) in a manner that emulates Verituner? Inotherwords, I wonder whether by taking inharmonicity measurments for each note just prior to tuning it (just an example of a potential methodology) one could, in effect, produce individualized tunings for each note using Tunelab?
Posted by: RPD

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/13/09 09:58 PM

So Bill...I just realized I'm reading this from wayyyyy back in 2004.

What platform are you using today??

RPD
Posted by: Gadzar

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/13/09 10:30 PM

johngrant,

For what I know, Tunelab uses information of measured iH to calculate a tuning curve. It is necessary to measure four notes to give the program the needed information and if you measure more than four notes the curve will be basically the same. So it is useless to measure more than a few notes.

Maybe Robert Scott can enlighten us about this.


About the PPC version of Verituner, I regret that "interval tuning" is not included in PPCVT. I have sent several mails to Dave Carpenter and it seems he's not going to include "interval tuning" for PPC version because he says "it is seldom used on VT100"
Posted by: Cashley

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/14/09 08:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I have sent several mails to Dave Carpenter and it seems he's not going to include "interval tuning" for PPC version because he says "it is seldom used on VT100"


Can VT's Dave confirm if you happen to be reading this ? The VT's webpage says both Spectrum Display and Interval Tuning will be available as FREE upgrade.
Posted by: Kaydee7

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/29/09 02:44 PM

just to chime in on an old thread ... just got the SAT IV, should make life interesting... soon to have a SAT II for sale.
more later

73'
kd7
mark
Posted by: JBE

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/29/09 10:35 PM

That's great. Let us know how the SAT IV works out. It's been hard to find any reviews on it. Are there any SAT users out there that would like to give it a review? From what I've read it's basically the same except for the shell.
Posted by: dherbon

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/29/09 11:49 PM

I used a SAT, for 3 years, and the VT for three years. For me there is no comparison. I my opinion, the VT is superior. The display is more informative and easier to read than the SAT. Tuning the extreme octaves is much easier with the VT. False beats are easier to read and adjust with the VT. I have been using Ron Koval's new styles on my VT and the results have been great. A number of compliments from my home and school customers. The VT is much more flexible than the SAT. For doing basic tuning the Sat was fine, but with wide pitch changes and the ability to adjust the tunings as you go, the VT is the most advanced unit out. Cost was worth it.
Posted by: JBE

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/30/09 10:38 AM

Does Tunelab work well on the ipaq 110/111? It is not mentioned on the Tunlab site as a recommended computer so I e-mailed them a while back and was told that it should work. The word should gave me pause to try it.
Posted by: RoyP

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/30/09 05:33 PM

I run Tunelab on an iPaq 210 and it works great. It doesn't lock up like it did on my old iPaq. I use to have to reset on a regular basis. Not on this one. The 210 has a bigger, higher resolution screen than the 110, if memory serves. When I inquired about the Verituner Pocket version, they said that it would work on the 210, but would run better on the 110. I assume that is because the display on the 210 eats up more system resources. So, in short, I think that Tunelab would run fine on the 110, maybe even better than it does on the 210.
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 10/31/09 11:46 AM

Originally Posted By: RPD
So Bill...I just realized I'm reading this from wayyyyy back in 2004.

What platform are you using today??

RPD


I had not been participating or even reading this thread because for me, it was a moot point. I ultimately took Tom the Tuner's suggestion and bought an SAT III in early 2005, so I have been using that for nearly 5 years.

That being said, I am somewhat interested in getting an SAT IV as my primary device and if I can find a really good pocket device that has enough capacity, I would install the software for the three other programs. Then, I would have it all and be able to use each to its own unique advantages when that opportunity presents itself.
Posted by: Daryl Durand

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 11/01/09 11:08 AM

I've been using the VT100 since it came out and really like the machine. The only problem is there hasn't been any updates for it for years. I've heard that Tunelab can do a pitch raise without mutes. Has anyone here in the forum used
Tunelab for this pupose?
Posted by: JBE

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 11/01/09 11:57 AM

I'm currently in the process of getting to the bottom of the issue with different calculated tunings. I still have VT Pocket installed on an iPaq 111. Other techicicans find that it does as good a job as the VT 100. I've adjusted the microphone gain up a notch again on the ppc and changed the needle graphics. I may need to reinstall the program or something. Or send the whole thing in to Veritune to have it checked out by them. I'll do some more side by side comparisons with VT 100 and VT Pocket.
Posted by: JBE

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 11/01/09 12:03 PM

A colleague of mine uses Tunelab. I've tuned once with it and it's a great device. He finds it very easy to tune the upper treble by using the mute-less pitch raise method. You can visually read each string at the same time.

Ron Koval has a short YouTube video where he uses Tunelab.
Posted by: RonTuner

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 11/01/09 03:25 PM

One of my youtube vids (link at the bottom of this message) goes over a muteless pitch raise using tunelab. (wow, I haven't added any vids in a loooong time! Gotta get goin' again...

Ron Koval
chicagoland
Posted by: RoyP

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 11/01/09 07:25 PM

I have a friend who owns both VT100 and VT Pocket. He says that he gets more complete readings of partials with the box. So what he does, on pianos he sees regularly, is to take readings with the box, save them to the computer, and then load them onto the iPaq. I think that he got the VT100 first, but now uses the iPaq most of the time.

I have to say that like Bill I am tempted by the SAT IV. It looks like one rugged unit. The thing is that these Pocket PC's only last a couple of years for me on average. In about 8 years, I'm on my 4th one. Eventually something happens if you use it every day. Now that I use a Blackberry, many of the PDA functions are redundant (although it is nice to have the backup along). Alot of the attraction of the PPC was that it was such a versatile tool, in addition to being a tuning device. Now that's not so important. The SAT IV looks like the kind of machine you could still be using in ten or twenty years, even if you are rough on it. So, basically, if and when this iPaq gives up, I might just switch. Hopefully it will be a while.
Posted by: Cashley

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 11/01/09 08:57 PM

Do you have any vids on tuning using a VT ?

I've fiddled with the tunelab trial version, and I found it to be sensitive in the sense that it's not easy to get to the 'zero' point. I wonder if the VT shares similar characteristic.
Posted by: RonTuner

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 11/02/09 08:39 AM

Some of the vids show the VT - in fact I got started with the videos from questions on the Verituner forum - "how is it possible to tune and pitch raise under two or three hours?!?" That 6-parter on youtube shows just that using the Verituner creating a new file. Most of the videos are pretty rough quality - both audio and visual. I'm trying to come up with better quality for the next group...

The pocket pc version has a smoothing function that can be applied to stabilize the needle or spinner. It helps a lot. The box seems to be a little better at auto-note-switching in the upper ranges, but the needle and spinner can "dance" around a bit, depending on the piano.


Ron Koval
chicagoland
Posted by: Cashley

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 11/02/09 08:45 AM

I'm keen on a PPC version but there are 2 functions still missing from the PPC version as mentioned in VT's website - spectrum display and direct intervals tuning. Although it'll be made available as free downloads at a later stage, it still isn't available and there is no guarantee that it will be made available eventually, or how soon ?

Can you think of any other PPC that can run VT other than the miserable iPAQ ? VT seems to prefer a QVGA to a full VGA. What is the reason when VGA is clearly a more expensive option and produces better pixels.
Posted by: johnlewisgrant

Re: Tunelab or Verituner? - 12/26/09 11:32 AM

I'm not a pro-tuner; so you may wish to take my observations with a grain of salt. I spent a lot of money on the vt program, because I like my piano to be perfectly in tune all the time. No way could I afford to keep a tech on call for this! Also, with a piano tuner, no matter how good, you are getting one person's tuning, which may not be the tuning you prefer. Once again, if you can manage to do it yourself, you can make the piano sound exactly the way you want it to: the octaves stretched exactly as you like them, the thirds, etc.,etc.,... And you can experiment with different tunings.

So with that in mind I went out on a limb and purchased the VT, indeed, with no way of really demoing the program prior to purchase.

What are my observations?? Well, in general, it took me some time to get exactly the right tuning for my particular Kawai model 500, (1968). Finally, I have what to my ears sounds like a spectacular tuning, but I had many issues along the way.