CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING

Posted by: alfredo capurso

CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/15/09 04:30 PM


I would like to dedicate this Topic to practical Chas ET aural tuning. In my hope, this may eventually help to gain Chas beating whole.

This thread is not intended for discussing different tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency. It is meant as the long-distance “handing on” of my approach, what may substitute a personal directioning of mine for sharing Chas Theory's Temperament.

Please, do not expect regular posting. I will most appreciate any kind of feedback from aural tuners and/or music involved people, through PM or e-mail. In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.


Best regards, a.c.



CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html


Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/15/09 11:03 PM

It sounds like a professional quality tuning to me, Alfredo but frankly I sorely miss the color in temperament I am used to hearing with my tunings. The octave stretching is quite beautiful however and the overall sound is very clear.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 07:40 AM

.....................say
......................I
...............want
...................to
...........choose
....................a
the correct way is tuning a preparatory beats and frequencies curve
...................that
...................leads
.........................to
.......................Chas
......................beating
..........................whole


From mid-section to the highest tones, I need to tune mid-strings at higher pitches, so that all check intervals, in those sections, will have a "preparatory" faster beat rate progression.
Posted by: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 08:06 AM

Quote:
From mid-section to the highest tones, I need to tune mid-strings at higher pitches, so that all check intervals, in those sections, will have a "preparatory" faster beat rate progression.


Why?
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 05:20 PM


Bill, Kent, thank you.

Tuning a piano may be compared to forging a bow.

A piano reacts quite like a stringed bow and, like a bow, a piano must have its correct "at rest" tension.

The piano's "at rest" tension can return our favorite tuning form. Arguing from analogy, I forge a bow by considering its dynamics. Pins may then be compared to arrows.

I pull the string and stretch my bow as due, then I’m aiming my arrow (the pin) at my target (Chas form), and let my bow itself (the piano) adjust to its consequent "at rest" tension. This overall tension can draw my favorite form.

So, I never go directly for the Chas form. I’m not the one that gains it, I only determine the premises. Chas EB-ET temperament can only be the result of correct evaluation of all the factors mentioned below. This factors call for an accentuated stretch for all intervals, what I refer to as Chas Preparatory Tuning.

The many tons of mixtured forces in the piano, how the strings tension and load increase (or decrease) will effect the whole structure, together with the strings three-lengths adjustements. So, before and during my tuning, I’m there to evaluate the settling down parabola.

It is indeed like calculating an arrow’s trajectory, in consideration of wind and gravity.

a.c.


CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html




Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 05:27 PM

How far from just is the piano when you start ?
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 05:53 PM

Hi Kamin,

Good point, but I would not have a clue. The one you mention is one of the variables, like the person that will open us the door.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 06:03 PM

Quote:
Arguing from analogy, I forge a bow by considering its dynamics.


Why do you feel the need to use flowery analogy in speaking with experienced professional tuners?

Quote:
So, I never go directly for the Chas form.


Specifically, why not?

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 06:34 PM

Hello Kent,

we can discuss about my needs, flowers, analogies, pro tuning and special techniques here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

Regards, a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html
Posted by: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 06:54 PM

Quote:
I would like to dedicate this Topic to practical Chas ET aural tuning


My questions are within the scope of this topic, are they not?

To repeat:

Why do you feel the need to use flowery analogy in speaking with experienced professional tuners?

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 07:36 PM

Bill, Kent, you have already my reply here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

This thread is not intended for discussing different tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency. I will most appreciate any kind of feedback from aural tuners and/or music involved people, through PM or e-mail.

In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.


...........................(- (- (- (- (- (- (+) -) -) -) -) -) -)


Tuning a piano may be compared to forging a bow.

A piano reacts quite like a stringed bow and, like a bow, a piano must have its correct "at rest" tension.

The piano's "at rest" tension can return our favorite tuning form. Arguing from analogy, I forge a bow by considering its dynamics. Pins may then be compared to arrows.

I pull the string and stretch my bow as due, then I’m aiming my arrow (the pin) at my target (Chas form), and let my bow itself (the piano) adjust to its consequent "at rest" tension. This overall tension can draw my favorite form.

So, I never go directly for the Chas form. I’m not the one that gains it, I only determine the premises. Chas EB-ET temperament can only be the result of correct evaluation of all the factors mentioned below. This factors call for an accentuated stretch for all intervals, what I refer to as Chas Preparatory Tuning.

The many tons of mixtured forces in the piano, how the strings tension and load increase (or decrease) will effect the whole structure, together with the strings three-lengths adjustements. So, before and during my tuning, I’m there to evaluate the settling down parabola.

It is indeed like calculating an arrow’s trajectory, in consideration of wind and gravity.

a.c.


CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html
Posted by: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 09:01 PM

Was the link you posted intended to be bogus?

Quote:
In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.


Is it acceptable, then, to provide feedback stating that no progress is possible, given the lack of information forthcoming from you?

I repeat:

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?

Will you be posting here corrected instructions for your temperament, as has been requested before?
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/17/09 12:25 AM

was not yet the settling bowl parabola yet used ?

But I begin to be annoyed to have to try to understand where you man want to come by with that suspense and prophetic things. Are you in a sect of some sort ?

I have also find that one " the bow when plucked, tone as a bow : boink !"

We need enthusiastic people, but please how do you want us to take you seriously ? Kens inquiry was serious, is it necessary to raise pitch on the whole piano befor meditating a Chas tuning .
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/17/09 12:44 AM

About bowing, or natural settling, yes a grand, preferently without plate bushing, could settle in a natural way hence no active pin setting from the tuner, the pianist do the job, but I learned to rely not so much to that, If you think of that.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/17/09 06:27 AM


Kent,

I did link my reply to you, it is still there. I apologize for the forthcoming amount of informations, it is mainly relative to my time disposal.

This thread is meant as the long-distance “handing on” of my approach. It is not intended for discussing different approaches, tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency.

Please mind, nobody here is forced into any kind of belief. I’m simply talking about my personal experience, one of many possible routes, and about my favorite tuning temperament, in my personal way. Nobody then is forced into this reading and, if it was not satisfactory, this whole thread may as well be ignored.

Anybody may have sincere reasons for sharing Theories, approaches, tunings, techniques, linguistic styles and/or forms of communication. If anyone wanted to talk about their own issues, or deepen a subject, I kindly ask he/she either to choose the most appropriate Topic (there is plenty) or to start his/her own new Topic.

For discussing about Chas EB-ET Theory, you are welcome here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html


Regards, a.c.


CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

.
Posted by: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/17/09 07:42 AM

With the analogy of a piano being a bow and when releasing the tension the tuning is created, my question is a little different than Kamin’s:

Originally Posted By: Kamin
How far from just is the piano when you start ?


My question is: “Just how far will the piano fly when you finish?” laugh
Posted by: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/17/09 07:52 AM

Given that the topic is named "CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING", is it not appropriate to inquire about why a preparatory tuning is needed?

Quote:
Nobody then is forced into this reading and, if it was not satisfactory, this whole thread may as well be ignored.


How, exactly, do you intend to disseminate your technique if you won't discuss it?

Repeating, do you plan to post a corrected version of your tuning instructions, as previously requested?

Quote:
For discussing about Chas EB-ET Theory, you are welcome here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html


Is it intentional that you are repeatedly posting this broken link?
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/17/09 08:24 AM

"Given that the topic is named "CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING", is it not appropriate to inquire about why a preparatory tuning is needed?"...

Kent, you can also read about that in Chas first Topic. Sorry, for the link, yesterday it was working. May I ask you to kindly change attitude? As I have said, nobody is forced into this reading. a.c.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/18/09 01:58 PM


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I........................n.e.......t.i..........r.d

considering my wheight

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When I modify the strings load on the bridge and the soundboard, I consider the elasticity factor. The bridge and the sounboard can only adjust then under a correct distribution of the new load, only then I get my favorite tuning.

.
Posted by: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/18/09 02:37 PM

Alfredo:

Maybe you are talking about what is called a "pitch raise." A piano is below pitch, so it is roughly tuned a little above pitch but ends up about on pitch. Then it is given a finer tuning. Of course some parts of the piano may be lower than others and the "a little above pitch" might be more like "quite a bit above pitch."

Is this what you are doing when a piano is below pitch, or do you need to do this regardless of where the piano's pitch starts at? I mean, if there is a piano that you tune regularly, do you do this preparation tuning every time?
Posted by: JBE

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/18/09 06:37 PM

Huh!!! eek
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/19/09 05:15 AM

Alfredo, you did not refrain on those champaign bottles, please wait a little Christmas is only in a few days !!

That said, Cheers !
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/19/09 07:07 AM


The champaign is still there, promise, it must have been that recent cake...fine patisserie?

Anyway...Cheers!

.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/19/09 05:27 PM


Even if there is no wind, an arrow draws a curved trajectory.

Even when I tune a piano very close to my favorite sound whole, say 99%, I never tune Chas on mid-strings, I’ll go for a preparatory tuning, as described above. I always consider the adjustments that will take place, possibly the infinitesimal ones too, and I do everything I can for these adjustments to take place.

If that piano was very very close to my favorite order, say 99.999%, on mid-strings it would (more or less) keep the preparatory tuning I talk about, then it may be a question of unisons. In any case, only in peculiar circumstances do I accept to “repair” my tuning, normally I restart from the beginning.

A piano may look like an ordinary piece of furniture, but in fact, due to the tons of tension it holds, we know that a piano is more an instrument that is constantly “in progress”.

My favorite sound beating-whole can only be the result of a dynamic factor, the piano structure’s adjustments. I determine the premises, and act, so that Chas may result from these premises through the piano’s settling down. Only then can I think of it as a temporary stable condition.

My tuning is causing these factors, determining the premises and driving the adjustments, expecting and wanting them in one, acting and waiting for them to release eventually my favorite sound whole.

a.c.

.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/19/09 06:00 PM

Pianos, I only talk to them, with a new one I ask gently if I'll have trouble with him and generally he say no and stay quiet (I've seen that in a movie where the guy comes to jail, the green line, it works).

Sometime only if I put my case near the piano it sound better !
Posted by: JBE

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/19/09 06:46 PM

...and if HE'S a SHE does she slap you in the face too?
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/20/09 04:14 AM

Nope, once one step on my toe, but as I wear security shoes I smiled and took my hammer, the piano was only badly in need of tuning (that makes them nervous)

Is the grand piano feminine, in English ? (never thought of that).
Here the grand is pretty much masculine, as the vertical.
Special mention to the factory joke about the 3 lid props BTW, (we are in the working class, for most, don't forget even if mention of those terms disappear from common language some years ago)



Posted by: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/21/09 08:12 AM

Alfredo:

I understand that measurements of frequencies of single strings have been compared to a tuned unison with all three strings sounding together. A drop in pitch has been observed. But since a higher partial is measured, I am not sure if it is the fundamental frequency that changes or if it is the effective iH of the strings that change and therefore the frequency of the partials and the beat rate of the tuning intervals. This effect is an argument for tuning unisons as you go and for adding a bit of extra stretch when tuning an octave so that when the other strings of the unison are tuned the pitch will settle where it belongs.

Perhaps this is what you are experiencing rather than the piano’s tension equalizing.

In regards to tension equalization, something I have noticed when doing a preparatory pitch raise is that too much of an overshoot does not seem to matter as much as even a little bit of undershoot.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/24/09 03:23 AM

So how do we setup that CHas preparatory tuning ?

And the real thing ?
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/28/09 05:14 PM

These contents were posted on Chas Topic on 5/23/09 (somehow corrected (thanks to Jeff Deutschle)):

I decided to go further my tuning sequence mainly for two reasons: firstly, because hundreds of interesting pages have and are been written about the most original and reasonable sequencies, none of them leading to a solid, reliable theory that could deal with inharmonicity, so leaving tuners in a state of uncertainty. A sequence will always be debatable, a mathematical evidence will not. Secondly, because I do not think the sequence I use is any special, nor time saving or more confortable for listening to or comparing beats. In my opinion, any sequence can eventually work, as long as you clearly know what you can be aiming at and why, and how and where you’ll get it.

The only novelty may regard the overall approach and the interrelation of SBI, i.e. 8ves, 4ths and 5ths beat curves, the research's results that opened to Chas. Chromatic 4ths are not only similar, going up the scale they get tiny little wider. Chromatic 5ths are not only similar, from low notes they first stretch down and get tiny little narrower, in between G3 and G4 they invert and stretch up toward there pure ratio (tuning centre strings), going tiny less and less narrow.

An italian collegue pointed out that SBI are much harder to evaluate than RBI. True, I would also agree in saying that RBI give you the general idea of what you are doing in the shortest lapse of time. Nevertheless in my opinion, anyone truly wanting to achieve excellence in aural tuning, would have to master the maximum control of any interval’s beat. A matter of wrist, both in the figurative and the anathomic sense, and a matter of rhythmics. In my case, SBI control took me to the 7th decimal point (section 4.5).

So what happened was, first I empirically calculated the univocal SBI and RBI chromatic proportional order, there I could notice an astonishing euphonic set that would prove how inharmonicity can be made tractable. Then I simply elaborated its essence, to finally construct an updated and comprehensive ET model, reliable in both theoretical and practical terms. Since I know all this comes from practice, simplicity and utmost exactitude, I’m disclosing Chas model with a serene soul.

In tuning, as I have learned, each sound is only temporarly tuned, since every single added sound may indicate the need to correct previously tuned notes. At the end, it is the Chas form that releases me from all doubts and only then I am absolutely certain to have done my best. Anyway, here are a few suggestions introducing and commenting the sequence.

A - do not take this tuning sequence as a must -
B - octaves, 4ths and 5ths shape the skelethon of the entire set -
C - start tuning only middle string, mute from C6 down to strings crossing, dampers up -
D - tuning single strings and unisons, get always the same moderate sound intensity -
E - octaves have a low beat-threshold and a high beat-threshold, this helps me when tuning octaves in middle register -
F - possibly, stabilize middle string frequencies by playing a Forte sound -
G – do not tire your ears, by playing louder you will not hear better nor more -

sharp or flat is referred to the note we are ment to tune. The already-tuned note is in bracket -

Step 1 – A4 – from 440.0 Hz to 442.0 Hz (concert or studio) - from 442.0 to 443.0 (for flat pianos)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 2 – (A4)-A3 - tiny little flat, just on the beating threshold
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 3 – (A3)-D4-(A4) - sharp, close to 1 beat/sec. – D4-(A4) faintly beating
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 4 – (A3)-E4 - flat
check overlaping 5ths and adjacent 4ths to set up Chas ET EB octave:
A3-E4 about 1,5 beat/3s - sensibly faster than D4-A4
E4-A4 about 2 beats/1s - sensibly faster than A3-D4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 5 – (E4)-B3 – flat - tiny little faster beat than A3-D4, sensibly slower beat than E4-A4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 6 – (B3)-F#4 - flat - little slower beat than A3-E4 since 5ths have already inverted
faster beat than D4-A4 evaluate M6 A3-F#4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 7 – (F#4)-C#4 – flat - faster beat than E4-B3, sensibly slower beat than E4-A4
evaluate two M3’s progression + one M6
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 8 – (C#4)-G#4 – flat - slower beat than B3-F#4, tiny little faster than D4-A4
evaluate three M3’s progression + two M6’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 9 – (G#4)-D#4 – flat - tiny little slower beat than E4-(A4), faster than F#4-C#4
evaluate four M3’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 10 – (D#4)-A#3 – flat - tiny little faster beat than A3-D4, tiny little slower than E4-B3
evaluate five M3’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 11 – (A#3)-F4 – flat - tiny little slower beat than A3-E4,
tiny little faster beat than B3-F#4
evaluate seven M3’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So far, apart from A3-D4, we have stretched "flat" - now we’ll stretch "sharp"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 12 – (D4)-G4 – sharp - tiny little slower beat than G#4-D#4, faster beat than F#4-C#4
evaluate eight M3’s progression + three M6’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 13 – (G4)-C4 - sharp - tiny little slower beat than B3-F#4,
tiny little faster beat than C#4-G#4 evaluate nine M3’s progression + four M6’s progression
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Beats curves are meant to be tuned temporarly. While you are tuning, bear all (few) doubts in mind.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 14 – (A#3)-A#4 – sharp - increase octaves beat’s speed very slowly – 5ths go very, very slowly towards pure – F4-A#4 tiny little faster beat than D4-A4, as for the next 4ths
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the octave beat threshold, first signs of beating come to us in a shorter and shorter lapse of time, this helps to S-shape octaves stretch
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 15 – (B3)-B4 - sharp - increase octaves beats rate very, very slowly - 5ths towards pure
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 16 – (C4)-C5 - sharp - increase octaves beats rate very slowly - 5ths towards pure
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 17 – (C#4)-C#5 - sharp - increase octaves beats rate very slowly – 5ths start transiting pure - evaluate one M10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 18 – (D4)-D5 - sharp - increase octaves beats rate very slowly – 5ths are transiting pure - evaluate M10’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 19 – (D#4)-D#5 - sharp - increase octaves beats speed very slowly – 5ths are transiting pure - evaluate M10’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 20 – (E4)-E5 - sharp - increase octaves beats speed very slowly –
5ths have transited pure, evaluate M10’s progression –
chromatic M12s, like A3-E5 must be constant and temporarly tuned pure (on normally out of tune pianos) -
Step 21 – (F4)-F5 – sharp
Step 22 – (F#4)-F#5 – sharp
Step 23 – (G4)-G5 – sharp
Step 24 – (G#4)-G#5 – sharp
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 25 – A4-A5 – double octaves like A3-A5 must be constant and temporarly beat with a rate of about 3b/2s, or 3/2 bps
increase octaves beats speed very slowly –
5ths are very slowly widening, evaluate M10’s progression –
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 26 – (A#4)-A#5 – sharp - check 10ths, pure 12ths, wide 15ths, let 5ths go slowly wider
Step 27 – (B4)-B5 – sharp - check 10ths, pure 12ths, wide 15ths, let 5ths go slowly wider
Step 28 – (C5)-C6 – sharp - check 10ths, pure 12ths, wide 15ths, let 5ths go slowly wider
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go back down for G#3 to lower notes using SBI, RBI and EB, never lose control of beats progressions for all intervals. 5ths will get slower, so will 4ths. Improve A#4 with F#3 and D#3. Unison all these registers from your left hand moving right, except last muted string on C6, then go up to higher notes. Chas delta-wide 15ths and delta-narrow 12ths beat’s rate is about 1b/3s or 1/3 bps.

Tune as you know, middle string first, then unison previous note’s right string (C6), next left (C#6), tune next middle (D6), unison previous right (C#6), next left, tune next middle and so on, checking also M17ths progression. While tuning, do not stop evaluating strings and sound-board rigidity/elasticity, so you’ll be able to conveniently tune centre strings.

a.c.

.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/29/09 03:21 AM

Thanks so much ALfredo,

What a huge job to describe and theorize on that ! I said esoteric not because of the method but the way you present it, but I suppose I can get used to your way to express things.

I believe I'll have a better picture of what you are doing while doing it myself.

I'll ask my Brother, which is violonist, what he think about large fifths (and small ones ! )
He plays very just, and with many pianists (or even an organist once)

Hopefully he also have some humour ! Ill let you know what he say.

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-parodies-transcriptions-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00166GMGS

Thank you and please post other recordings if possible (with voiced piano) Best regards.

Posted by: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/30/09 11:28 AM

May I respectfully suggest that you are not familiar with modern temperament directions, which contain much specific detail not included in your directions.

Many sets of directions have been published. I myself have published a set of directions for some decades; my directions are known to have been helpful to many learning piano tuning.

My directions are presently somewhat out-of-date, but remain useful.

Pending a needed update, the latest version of my directions may be seen at:

files.me.com/kentswafford/0p8fok

I hope my directions will provide at least one example of a modern set of temperament directions.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/30/09 11:41 AM


Thanks Kent, I very much appreciate the chance you offer me. That address do not seem to work though, what can I do?

a.c.

.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/30/09 04:46 PM

Hello Alfredo !

I could not be there for some days, but I'll give you news soon !


The kind of thing that makes the explanations may be not precise enough is for instance "first octave barely beating"

To know how much I may know what kind of "proof" to be used and how many beats differences. for instance, 1 beat in 5 seconds for M3d/10th (or4:2 if expressed differntly)

That said, on a Fazioli concert grand for instance, (from memory ) you cant have a noticeable difference between 6:3 and 4:2 , iH is simply too low there so the trade of is not the way to have the best temperament octave.

I approach that this way :
I tune 2 doublets unisons that "speaks"
Octave may speak the same, I only may be careful with the tendency to have too little stretched octaves that way.

Your method of pulling one string higher than the final wanted pitch is also a "guess and hope method" , or you count of the energy blend coming from the instrument to "lock" the octave (which is certainly possible but difficult to prove, we are now in "artistic tuning" and not following a model.

I have no particular problems with rolling octaves, as long as the roll is not out of phase , or perceived, but depending of the output I'll lessen that ( if FBI begin to raise speed too much).

Seem to me that on low iH instruments, as harpsichords, tuning models that allow beating octaves leave no place for the inherent acoustic of the instrument, it scream, it catch the ear, eventually musically but not in its most natural way. Some like that impression of constant suspense and it clean minor harmony, but I've seen very negatives reactions from musicians with some comments as " Bontempi tone"
(not talking of your particular method here, that is more in the Cordier reaction)

It could be cultural, why not, anyway a taste affair.

Till next time, and have a nice end of 2009 !
Posted by: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/30/09 08:07 PM

All of the following are correct paths to the file:

files.me.com/kentswafford/0p8fok

http://files.me.com/kentswafford/0p8fok

http://www.kentswafford.com/EWW/ewwt.pdf
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/31/09 10:01 AM


Thanks Kamin, I'll reply asap, it will be 2010!!

Thanks Kent, they are correct paths indeed, I'll study your paper and reply to you too. To All

-(----------------------- 20 * HAPPY NEW YEAR *10
.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/01/10 09:57 AM

Happy new also, , sorry it is just to have my name on the whole front page !!!

Best regards '(no reply needed !!!)
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/04/10 05:05 PM


Chas Preparatory Tuning is referred to centre-strings-tuning and it comes out to be mindful tuning:

Chas ET octaves are progressive.

Chas 4ths are progressive. The 4ths beat rate progression invert on C3.
Chas 5ths are progressive. The 5ths beat rate progression invert on E4 (tuning centre strings).

Octaves beat-rise-time – Propensity to beat

------------------------TIME
I-----I------I--------I----------I--------I------I-----I---I
A0...A1.....A2........A3...........A4........A5.......A6...A7..C8


In Chas preparatory tuning, octaves are wide and progressive. In order to distribute the octaves progression I evaluate the “propensity to beat”, in other words I calculate the TIME needed for the beat to rise. Midrange octaves do not beat, though octaves swell towards beating.

So I set the A3-A4 octave on the edge (or soil) of the beat (on centre string) and, little by little, this stretch is to be chromaticaly widened. Then, going towards high and low notes, the octave’s beat gets more and more defined, i.e. it rises in a shorter and shorter time, as shown above. Only for the highest octaves I can count progressive beating around 1/bps or little more.

The octave’s beat rate is always relative to all the other intervals beat rate, as in a system of levers, so I draw the form with SBI and RBI. To evaluate the stretch-curve in practice, I use 12ths as a reference (on centre strings). In fact A3-E5 - on centre string – has to be apparently beatless (3:1 ratio). So will be the next chromatic 12ths, when tuning centre strings upwards.

This will produce constant wide 15ths, beating at about 3/2 bps, on centre string. Just unisoning left and right strings will correct these intervals and gain the Chas ET form in stable terms, with the form’s constant and opposite equal beating 12ths and 15ths all along the keyboard.

a.c.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/05/10 03:59 AM

Hello ALfredo,

You are welcome to Paris, of course, thanks for proposal.

Thank you for your clearing , it begin to comes thru my slow mind !.

What I am not exactly understanding is why there is any interest in having the piano tuned as if it was a single chord, it probably misses some movement along the keyboard harmonically then, as to me the stretch evolving gave that , and pianist most probably play with it while improvising.

I see tuning as a reproduction more or less precise because of the piano iH, of a temperament, it can be based on an octave or include yet corrections in prevision of the highest and lowest regions, it can be more tonal or more based on the inharmonic spectra of the notes (inharmonicity is low in the medium range but yet perceived, hopefully, if not the tone is not as crisp as a piano tone.)

I have yet tried yesterday with your inversion in mind, and finishing with the 12th 15th evening so 4th 5th temperament with that inversion gives strange results, no harshness but one have to get use to that.

I had not time to record the piano, it will be done later (may be , aint my instrument)

I may say that my first impression is that 12th 15th evening will correct any kind of temperament and make the piano then playeable by reconciliation of the medium tweaks and the treble and bass (hopefully on pianos we have often much room for cheats !)

second impression is that 12th 15th is a very valuable and quiet method to raise in the treble
Also very comfortable to find pitches in the low basses when the wires are dumb (old)

I tuned that 122M Grotrian (while "listening" to the concerto "the Emporor' so to be sure to not tune as usually) and it had a nice resonance in the end (despite a slow third in the middle of temperament).

But I did not came near any of the slow beats of the tenths and 17th of the begin of your recording, the medium octaves are not 2:1 to my ears they need a little more stretch so the beginning of the treble sticks out more easely.

May be compromizing the 12th and the double octave is a good way to determine the size of the octave while going up and down but I am unsure it is the same for the temperament or the low medium range.

You say that ih is poor in the medium. do you have the numbers ? I just checked and it looks like even on a concert grand the ih of the A3 is around the iH of the lowest plain wires, anyway my experience have been that iH change your first octave as any other note on the piano, even on a concert grand you cant reconcilite all intervals, there is a differnece between 6:3 and 4:2, and the speed of intervals vary depending of the piano.

If your method have to be matheamtically valid you cant say "it is low so does not matter" because it is a variable and the primarly goal of tuning is to make an interesting use of the iH of the piano.

By evidence the piano is driving the beats speed, but I relate to that thoses too slow 10ths I hear in the beginning of the recording.

That said you certainly have find a way to have a nice resonance within the instrument.
I may respectfully ask you : do you play piano ? I know some very talented concert tuner which is unable to play and to check the harmonic behaviour of a piano (hense stick to what he learned and then please most pianists)

I was lucky enough to grow within a musician family so it sort of sharpen my ears (that have been a little beaten by my tuning days but I stay acute I guess!)

When I say that contrast is necessary I mean that it may be too much perceived if a tuning is based on one interval only (while it is highly pleayeable to have progressive RBI, they may progress in speed not to slowly so to pealse the musican's ear)

Your last explanations give me material, so Ill write again after having tried with that method too.

I'll answer on the preparatory tuning, I guess you have some part of mysticism that makes you believe that the piano will "self tune" in some way after you tense the middle string. I believe you may be right in that case but probably only if the piano is yet not far from final pitch.

It would be interesting to do your tuning with the right pedal engaged and see how the pitch evolve.

If not there are % that can be used to ascertain where the final pitch will be (some EDT have good solution to that problem, but based on an unison tuning as we go, so your approach make sense , but I see no maths at that point, for instance how do you deal with piano which is 4 cts low how do you evaluate the necessary raise).

A customer , piano teacher that was math teaching in a precedent life, told me when I showed her the debate on your presentation of CHAS, that once you look for mathematic proof of something you had find by trial, you always find a way for justification.

Being not at a sufficient level of maths to say so I would not comment, but that seem to be what most have say on the forum
while I believe it should be less sterile in the discussion if my colleagues directly try to tune with your recipe, then discuss later.)


Best regards.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/07/10 02:29 PM


Hello Kamin, you kindly write:

...“What I am not exactly understanding is why there is any interest in having the piano tuned as if it was a single chord, it probably misses some movement along the keyboard harmonically then, as to me the stretch evolving gave that , and pianist most probably play with it while improvising.”...

I tune centre strings – the way I was taught – mainly for distributing strings load on the bridge and, while the piano is settling, for correcting (in case) only one string.

...“I see tuning as a reproduction more or less precise because of the piano iH, of a temperament, it can be based on an octave or include yet corrections in prevision of the highest and lowest regions, it can be more tonal or more based on the inharmonic spectra of the notes (inharmonicity is low in the medium range but yet perceived, hopefully, if not the tone is not as crisp as a piano tone.)”...

In my experience, iH can influence my tuning form very very little, much less than usually lamented. In any case, I could draw the qualities of Chas form and get its symmetric properties out, even on very small pianos.

...“I have yet tried yesterday with your inversion in mind, and finishing with the 12th 15th evening so 4th 5th temperament with that inversion gives strange results, no harshness but one have to get use to that.”...

Yes, most probably it will be strange at the beginning.

...“I may say that my first impression is that 12th 15th evening will correct any kind of temperament and make the piano then playeable by reconciliation of the medium tweaks and the treble and bass (hopefully on pianos we have often much room for cheats !)”...

Well, if one uses it to correct any kind of temperament, a part of the smoothness of the overall progressions will be lost, together with a part of the beats synchronism, what effects the overall resonance. In any case, one could still have a precise reference given by Chas Theory's Delta rule for 88 tones ET tuning.

...“second impression is that 12th 15th is a very valuable and quiet method to raise in the treble
Also very comfortable to find pitches in the low basses when the wires are dumb (old)”...

I agree. When I tune, I find very confortable having precise checks and control opportunity. Chas Pre-form's tuning displays the curves for all intervals, so I get plenty of chances to check this Pre-form and to know what I'm doing.

...“I tuned that 122M Grotrian (while "listening" to the concerto "the Emporor' so to be sure to not tune as usually) and it had a nice resonance in the end (despite a slow third in the middle of temperament).”...

Good, I’m glad.

...“But I did not came near any of the slow beats of the tenths and 17th of the begin of your recording, the medium octaves are not 2:1 to my ears they need a little more stretch so the beginning of the treble sticks out more easely.”...

Is not immediate to evaluate how much the piano is going to “take back” and where, in terms of stretch and load. In a way, it remains an unknown variable, but you certainly know about this.

...”May be compromizing the 12th and the double octave is a good way to determine the size of the octave while going up and down but I am unsure it is the same for the temperament or the low medium range.”...

Chas Pre-form favours 3:1 ratio (for 12ths) and 3:2 or even wide 5ths, up the scale on centre strings. Never had problems in mid or mid-low range, I keep progressive octaves, 3rds, 6ths, well related and progressive 4ths and 5ths, and check with, 10ths, 17ths ecc. as usual.

...“You say that ih is poor in the medium. do you have the numbers ? I just checked and it looks like even on a concert grand the ih of the A3 is around the iH of the lowest plain wires, anyway my experience have been that iH change your first octave as any other note on the piano, even on a concert grand you cant reconcilite all intervals, there is a differnece between 6:3 and 4:2, and the speed of intervals vary depending of the piano.”...

In my opinion, setting with 6:3 intervals may expose you to the iH’s effects.

...“If your method have to be matheamtically valid you cant say "it is low so does not matter" because it is a variable and the primarly goal of tuning is to make an interesting use of the iH of the piano.”...

Ohi, I would not like to be extreme, I do not tune with a calculator. Chas Theory is mathematically impecable, Chas Pre-form tuning must consider all variables. Then, in my experience, defining the beats order with basic ratios, may limit iH’s influence.

...“I may respectfully ask you : do you play piano ? I know some very talented concert tuner which is unable to play and to check the harmonic behaviour of a piano (hense stick to what he learned and then please most pianists)
I was lucky enough to grow within a musician family so it sort of sharpen my ears (that have been a little beaten by my tuning days but I stay acute I guess!)”...

I’m not dedicated to piano playing, but I play the piano as a preparer’s routine. As for the rest, playing is not a passion for me, it is more of a chronic disease and a family inclination.

...“When I say that contrast is necessary I mean that it may be too much perceived if a tuning is based on one interval only”...

Chas Pre-form is drawn with all intervals, with slow and fast beats checks and proportions.

...“I'll answer on the preparatory tuning, I guess you have some part of mysticism that makes you believe that the piano will "self tune" in some way after you tense the middle string. I believe you may be right in that case but probably only if the piano is yet not far from final pitch.”...

More than faith or personal belief, it is a question of phisics. Not only for pitch-raising but always, when I charge the piano’s structure, change tensions and load the bridges, I must expect some degree of settling. I like evaluating the smallest one.

Say you play bowls, you throw the bowl and let it go towards your target. It is the bowl that gets it. Same if you shoot an arrow, you stretch your bow and let your arrow get your target. Same with tuning, I evaluate and stretch Chas Pre-form and let the piano gain it. For me this is very much realistic and respectful of how things go.

...“It would be interesting to do your tuning with the right pedal engaged and see how the pitch evolve.”...

I do not know this technique and I’m very curious about it.

...“If not there are % that can be used to ascertain where the final pitch will be (some EDT have good solution to that problem, but based on an unison tuning as we go, so your approach make sense , but I see no maths at that point, for instance how do you deal with piano which is 4 cts low how do you evaluate the necessary raise).”...

The lower (in pitch) the piano, the more approximated the tuning, then experience helps but you well know that.

...“A customer , piano teacher that was math teaching in a precedent life, told me when I showed her the debate on your presentation of CHAS, that once you look for mathematic proof of something you had find by trial, you always find a way for justification.”...

Well, I do not have research experience in other fields but, if you can, ask her how she likes the mathematical proofs and justifications adopted for any medical equipment, when she needs it.

...“Being not at a sufficient level of maths to say so I would not comment, but that seem to be what most have say on the forum
while I believe it should be less sterile in the discussion if my colleagues directly try to tune with your recipe, then discuss later.)”...

For what I’ve seen – also in other fields - when it comes to accuracy, exatitude, reliability or else related to self control, product and performance’s quality, many people prefere to talk about artistics, but I like it this way...Vive la diversité!

Best regards,

a.c.
.
Posted by: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/07/10 02:56 PM

I've been following these tuning discussions with great interest - technical interest only.

Alfredo writes:
Chas 4ths are progressive. The 4ths beat rate progression invert on C3.
Chas 5ths are progressive. The 5ths beat rate progression invert on E4 (tuning centre strings).

Two questions:

If beats (4ths) are supposed to invert from wide to narrow, (5ths) narrow to wide at some point in the register (it should depend on the piano, I think), then how can that be if the octaves are continuously stretched ever so slightly sharp from the tempered section and ever so slightly stretched flat below the tempered section?

How can one slightly stretch each octave note and expect those widened octaves to pave the way for an already widened 4th to become narrower? ...and narrow 5ths to be wider?

That means if the beats invert, then at some point, there are no beats, meaning that a particular 4th or 5th will be tuned pure (just)? Is this to provide a piano with the "color" as in not equal? Or do they invert in that their slow beat rates become faster/slower depending (4th or 5th) and not become pure intervals? I understand these things are better off seen/heard in-person, rather than described on a forum thread.

Sorry if I am missing something and you are repeating yourself.

I know, Issac, I will stop stretching so much the bass notes! wink

Glen

Sample tuning - please excuse playing errors wink

http://www.box.net/shared/rryoo393l4

http://www.box.net/shared/062bz3yefx

http://www.box.net/shared/27hq5la89d
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/07/10 05:43 PM


Hello Glen,

I'm happy to answer your questions for anything you may find unclear or illogical.

you ask:..."Or do they invert in that their slow beat rates become faster/slower depending (4th or 5th) and not become pure intervals?"...

Take this as a practical aid, nothing numerical but it can work as general reference and as a way to represent how intervals go.

Pre-form (centre strings from C3 to C6): 4ths never become pure. From bass up to C3-F3 they faintly slow down, from C3-F3 going up they get wider. Usually I go from C3-F3 down the bass, so in this direction 4ths get wider.

C3-F3 and C3-G3 have the same beat rate, between 1/2.5 and 1/3 bps.

5ths, from bass, go faintly narrower up to A3-E4 where they invert. Usually I go first up to C6, then from A3-E4 down the bass, so in this direction 5ths get less and less narrow (centre strings).

G#3-D#4 and A#3-F4 will be equal beating (as a reference).

From A3-E4 up, 5ths (on centre strings) get less and less narrow, while 4ths keep on getting wider. After G4-C5 4ths collaps. I use 5ths and octaves to go on, both very faintly progressive, octaves-beat rising in a shorter time, 5ths getting closer and closer to pure.

It takes a while for 5ths to get wide (Pre-form on centre strings). I check 10ths progression, starting from A3-C#5.
When I get to E5, I check my first 12ths A3-E5, it has to be pure (Pre-form on centre string).

I go up on centre strings with 5ths, octaves, 10ths and pure 12ths (on centre strings), up to the first 15th A3-A5. Then I have plenty of checks intervals, and I use all of them for what I need to do/hear.

When I get to C6 I go down, from A3 to C3 (or strings crossing). Then I check the whole three octaves Pre-form temperament (C3-C6 on centre strings), and start unisoning from C3 up. You may find this Pre-form sequence (not a must) in this thread.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/07/10 08:15 PM

Thanks, Alfredo,

Okay, thanks. Your fifths go from narrow-to-pure-to-wide up the register, and narrower down the register.

I strip mute as much as possible, so the center string is left unmuted - a non-issue - That is how I was taught, tune center strings first before unmuting to tune unisons. I suppose you call that pre-form.

I follow the paradigm (similar to Kent's article) to temper 4ths slightly wider than the tempered 5ths are narrow, proportional and progressive, not equal as you have it.

It seems that when I do this, then apply a slight stretch to the octaves moving in each direction from the tempered section, there is no inversion of 5ths, they only beat slower as I move up the register - it simply does not invert any 4ths or 5ths above or below the tempered section.

In order for me to start to do what you suggest, I would have to make, for example, C3-F3 and C3-G3 have the same beat rate, between 1/2.5 and 1/3 bps - that is contrary to my novice training, and certainly not out of the realm of possibility to eventually add that method to my developing tool-box.

I'll give it a try sometime and see what happens.

Thanks for the feedback.

Glen
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/08/10 03:02 AM


Hello Glen,

You write:... "Your fifths go from narrow-to-pure-to-wide up the register, and narrower down the register."...

Yes, narrow-to-pure-to-wide up the register, on center strings.

..."I strip mute as much as possible,"...

I do not. I mute from midbass strings-crossing up to C6. I do not find larger muting and "one go" unisoning convenient, for stability, though it may be time saving.

..."so the center string is left unmuted - a non-issue - That is how I was taught, tune center strings first before unmuting to tune unisons. I suppose you call that pre-form."...

Does Chas Pre-form mean “muting the strings”? No.

Chas Pre-form (Preparatory Tuning) is referred to a form where all wide intervals, 3rds, 4ths, 6ths, octaves, 10ths, 15ths and so on, beat a little faster, then narrow intervals are little less narrow. This Pre-form is drawn on center strings. Actually, 12ths are pure, 5ths get progressively pure and wide (on center strings).So:

- “a more accentuated tuning curve” answers “what” Pre-form is

- “muting” or “center strings tuning” answer “how” I draw Chas Pre-form

Is it like in pitch-raising? No

Chas Pre-form is (beat wise) the tuning form I must draw for gaining Chas ET.

Posted 12/16/2009: From mid-section to the highest tones, I need to tune mid-strings at higher pitches, so that all check intervals, in those sections, will have a "preparatory" faster (wide intervals) beat rate progression.

...“I follow the paradigm (similar to Kent's article) to temper 4ths slightly wider than the tempered 5ths are narrow, proportional and progressive, not equal as you have it.”...

Careful. In my experience, only C3-F3 (4th) and C3-G3 (5th) have the same bps. I strongly suggest you to spend time for careful reading, before you need correcting yourself (takes longer).

...“It seems that when I do this, then apply a slight stretch to the octaves moving in each direction from the tempered section, there is no inversion of 5ths, they only beat slower as I move up the register - it simply does not invert any 4ths or 5ths above or below the tempered section.”...

Have you looked at the sequence? I set 5ths inversion together with A3-A4 and A3-D4 and E4-A4, right at the beginning. A3-E4 beats narrower than D4-A4.

...“In order for me to start to do what you suggest, I would have to make, for example, C3-F3 and C3-G3 have the same beat rate, between 1/2.5 and 1/3 bps - that is contrary to my novice training, and certainly not out of the realm of possibility to eventually add that method to my developing tool-box.”...

I get the same beat rate on C3-F3 and C3-G3 as a result, so only a reference point, not a starting point, at least in my personal way. I’ve never tried starting from there…but who knows?

...“I'll give it a try sometime and see what happens.”...

Let me know, a.c.
.
Posted by: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/08/10 10:34 AM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hello Glen,

You write:... "Your fifths go from narrow-to-pure-to-wide up the register, and narrower down the register."...

Yes, narrow-to-pure-to-wide up the register, on center strings.

..."I strip mute as much as possible,"...

I do not. I mute from midbass strings-crossing up to C6. I do not find larger muting and "one go" unisoning convenient, for stability, though it may be time saving.

..."so the center string is left unmuted - a non-issue - That is how I was taught, tune center strings first before unmuting to tune unisons. I suppose you call that pre-form."...

Does Chas Pre-form mean “muting the strings”? No.

Chas Pre-form (Preparatory Tuning) is referred to a form where all wide intervals, 3rds, 4ths, 6ths, octaves, 10ths, 15ths and so on, beat a little faster, then narrow intervals are little less narrow. This Pre-form is drawn on center strings. Actually, 12ths are pure, 5ths get progressively pure and wide (on center strings).So:

- “a more accentuated tuning curve” answers “what” Pre-form is

- “muting” or “center strings tuning” answer “how” I draw Chas Pre-form

Is it like in pitch-raising? No

Chas Pre-form is (beat wise) the tuning form I must draw for gaining Chas ET.

Posted 12/16/2009: From mid-section to the highest tones, I need to tune mid-strings at higher pitches, so that all check intervals, in those sections, will have a "preparatory" faster (wide intervals) beat rate progression.

...“I follow the paradigm (similar to Kent's article) to temper 4ths slightly wider than the tempered 5ths are narrow, proportional and progressive, not equal as you have it.”...

Careful. In my experience, only C3-F3 (4th) and C3-G3 (5th) have the same bps. I strongly suggest you to spend time for careful reading, before you need correcting yourself (takes longer).

...“It seems that when I do this, then apply a slight stretch to the octaves moving in each direction from the tempered section, there is no inversion of 5ths, they only beat slower as I move up the register - it simply does not invert any 4ths or 5ths above or below the tempered section.”...

Have you looked at the sequence? I set 5ths inversion together with A3-A4 and A3-D4 and E4-A4, right at the beginning. A3-E4 beats narrower than D4-A4.

...“In order for me to start to do what you suggest, I would have to make, for example, C3-F3 and C3-G3 have the same beat rate, between 1/2.5 and 1/3 bps - that is contrary to my novice training, and certainly not out of the realm of possibility to eventually add that method to my developing tool-box.”...

I get the same beat rate on C3-F3 and C3-G3 as a result, so only a reference point, not a starting point, at least in my personal way. I’ve never tried starting from there…but who knows?

...“I'll give it a try sometime and see what happens.”...

Let me know, a.c.
.


Thanks for sharing your own personal way when it comes to setting your intervals.

I am at the stage now in my tuning journey where developing a consistent tuning model (sequence of interval setting, sequence of checks, ensuring pin stability, with the intention of the piano producing a musical sound that satisfies my ear and enhances the customer's playing experience), is key...

...consequently, I've been paying close attention to setting the temperament using Bill's contiguous thirds and ET via Marpurg as the basis, and sticking pretty close to what Kent describes in his Every-Which-Way Temperament Sequence article - Thank you Kent and Bill!

At this early stage, the path I am on seems to be working pretty well, so at some point I will experiment with your method. I am just not that adroit to add a third method yet, but it is good to know there are many good sequences available such as yours.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and for sharing your time, Alfredo.

Glen



Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/16/10 09:04 AM

Glen,

I'm sure you are doing well, tuning wise. I've heard your recordings, very good indeed.

If you like a more severe comment, add recording of chromatic intervals (the main ones, including 12ths and 15ths), played slowly (3 secs each), up to the 8th octave.

One colleague of ours asked for a "short description, summarizing the CHAS method to focus the attention on the important principle, to understand the system more quickly." I post my reply here too, in case it may be of some help:

About the method, i.e. the tuning sequence, the principles are:

- the use of all intervals for an ET where all intervals are progressive
- the use of low partials beats for reducing iH's influence
- not counting but comparing beats (progressive and even beating ones)
- guessing only the first octave for eventually perfect it
- drawing a more accentuated stretch curve for compensating the piano's adjustements (let the piano get the form)
- inverting the beat rate progression of 5ths for eventually gaining even beating 12ths (narrow) and 15ths (wide) all along the keyboard.

About the system:

- the static zero-beating approach is replaced with "stable dynamism"
- zero-beating "pure" intervals do not equal "more consonant"
- beats return the strings partials qualities (energy), so giving character and tension (read colour) to each single interval
- no interval needs to be beat-less
- all intervals (all partials) can compromise for an optimum, resonant and stable beating whole
- flows of beats determine infinite sound atmospheres.

Using few words, Chas theory's approach is based on beats synchronism of only beating intervals, and synergy.

Soon I'll be writing about the string/pin/lever relation, as I think this may help controlling the effects of our tuning onto the piano's structure.

Regards, a.c.


Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/16/10 10:54 AM

Alfredo:

Several questions. The fourth one is really the point of this post.

1. When you speak of a preparatory tuning, do you mean what most American and Northern European tuners would call setting the bearing or setting the temperament, along with getting other notes close to the final form?

2. I'm starting to wonder if there is a separate tradition of Italian tuning and temperaments. Most of the temperaments I've examined come from Germany, France, England, and the U.S. Your terminology, and your love of metaphor, makes me wonder if Italy, or at least Sicily, has developed a parallel tradition. Who taught you to tune?

3. Was he or she in turn taught in a specific school or by a specific method that may have a name--something we could learn more about? Are there books by Italian tuners or theorists that you could point us to?

4. More specifically, I wonder about something that may seem cliched, and that I hope you will not find insulting: Is there is a tuning tradition in Italy that derives in part from accompanying singers, from bel canto? I ask this question because your playing, and tuning, have a vocal, singing quality. And your metaphor of the bow reminds me of a similar metaphor I've heard singers use when teaching about vocal projection.

Please understand that I am not not trying to flatter you by saying that your tuning sings. (But it does.) I'm instead trying to learn if there is a slightly separate Italian tradition, perhaps tied to opera and accompanying solo singers, that we can learn more about. (And I appreciate metaphors, but as Kent says, a written tuning sequence provides more precise information...)

I suspect that, behind all of this math and theory, there is
a love of singing, and a piano adapted to vocal performance. (I'm not trying to undermine your mathematical ideas--I'm praising the results, and curious to learn if the desired tone arises from a tradition.)
Posted by: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/16/10 11:25 AM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Glen,

I'm sure you are doing well, tuning wise. I've heard your recordings, very good indeed.

If you like a more severe comment, add recording of chromatic intervals (the main ones, including 12ths and 15ths), played slowly (3 secs each), up to the 8th octave.

One colleague of ours asked for a "short description, summarizing the CHAS method to focus the attention on the important principle, to understand the system more quickly." I post my reply here too, in case it may be of some help:

About the method, i.e. the tuning sequence, the principles are:

- the use of all intervals for an ET where all intervals are progressive
- the use of low partials beats for reducing iH's influence
- not counting but comparing beats (progressive and even beating ones)
- guessing only the first octave for eventually perfect it
- drawing a more accentuated stretch curve for compensating the piano's adjustements (let the piano get the form)
- inverting the beat rate progression of 5ths for eventually gaining even beating 12ths (narrow) and 15ths (wide) all along the keyboard.

About the system:

- the static zero-beating approach is replaced with "stable dynamism"
- zero-beating "pure" intervals do not equal "more consonant"
- beats return the strings partials qualities (energy), so giving character and tension (read colour) to each single interval
- no interval needs to be beat-less
- all intervals (all partials) can compromise for an optimum, resonant and stable beating whole
- flows of beats determine infinite sound atmospheres.

Using few words, Chas theory's approach is based on beats synchronism of only beating intervals, and synergy.

Soon I'll be writing about the string/pin/lever relation, as I think this may help controlling the effects of our tuning onto the piano's structure.

Regards, a.c.




Thank you for your comments, Alfredo!

This past weekend, I had some extra time during one of my tunings in order experiment and learn better using some of your methods. Certainly, a wider octave stretch up the scale did contribute to the narrowed 5ths becoming more pure and the already wide 4ths becoming a bit wider. That was already happening somewhat. I found myself not wanting to have those 12ths go beyond pure above C6 or so. Perhaps it will require more practice or more stretch! Clearly, a console spinet will require a different (heavier) stretch than does a well-scaled grand piano.

Perhaps this weekend, time permitting, I will record those wider intervals (12ths) on another tuning on a grand and send them to you.

Pin and string setting are key components for me, as the stability of the tuning is accomplished there. I am wondering how the technique of pin/string setting in the unisons contributes to the string's (piano's) overall tone.

I am interested in learning more your experience(s)/method(s) in tuning unisons up and down the scale as a method of providing better tuning stability and maintaining interval widths as strings are brought up to pitch.

Single bass notes come last in the tuning for me, even after all the tri-chord unions are complete up to C8. Not sure why I do that, but it seems that the bass notes on a well-scaled piano contribute a great deal to the overall sound of the instrument. It might be that I do this to prevent stretching too much the bass, as I have had a tendency to hear a slight "roll" - (all that drama!) wink

BTW, I am a big fan of Kent's tuning sequences - a huge help for my speed and accuracy. Bill's ET via Marpug and progressive 3ds has been helpful as well.

Thank you, Alfredo. More tools for the toolbox for this novice!

Glen
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/16/10 04:50 PM

Hi all, because, I did not get the point immediately, when Afredo says the 5ths invert, he talk of the 5 ths beats of course (not of intervals that enlarge above just).

Glen , the 12 th stay on the tempered side, the 5ths may get wider in the high treble but not in an audible way.

Yes above pure at C6 the 12ths are substracting something to the tuning. But it happens depending of the way we tune.

In ALfredo's method they are tuned pure above C5 (C6 ? it depends of the initial pitch I guess) on the middle string so to settle afterthat when unisons are done.

When enlarging the medium it allow to stay with tempered twelves more easily, it is done often .. managing the enlarging is what is difficult.

It took me some time to read that correctly.

Till next ..

P.S Jack , I don't believe there is a really different method from Italian tuners, what makes Alfredo is almost very classical in fact (nothing really out of comprehension, nor far from usual way to tune, I may say more sticking to the rules , in fact (with coherent progressiveness of all intervals).

When listening to it or seeing it done, nothing stick out as unusual (but each action is weighted).



Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/17/10 01:39 AM

Yes, I should have read his sequence more closely.(I was carried away by my own metaphor of a singing piano?)

If I understand correctly, the 12ths can't used as checks below A3, since checking on 3:1 would give wider M5's than are desired in the tenor and bass. Are there any other checks for the ranges below that point, using 12ths or other intervals?
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/17/10 04:40 AM

Hi Glen,

you write:..."Certainly, a wider octave stretch up the scale did contribute to the narrowed 5ths becoming more pure and the already wide 4ths becoming a bit wider."...

I'd better underline that I talk about centre strings tuning. 5ths transit pure in between C5 and C6, but very faintly. Once I tune unisons, I keep 12ths (delta-narrow) and 15ths (delta-wide) as the correct form's reference. Those intervals will conferm whether my stretch evaluation on centre strings was right or not.

..."That was already happening somewhat. I found myself not wanting to have those 12ths go beyond pure above C6 or so."...

After unisons, if 12ths have gone behond pure (wide), the high register sounds sour (tart? acrid?), 10ths and 17ths are like too salty, too nervous, almost shouting.

..."Clearly, a console spinet will require a different (heavier) stretch than does a well-scaled grand piano."...

I know it is hard to believe but, maybe by referring to always the same low partials, I do not need different stretchings on small pianos, nor a different beat-net, except for mid-bass if the scaling is very poor.

..."Pin and string setting are key components for me, as the stability of the tuning is accomplished there. I am wondering how the technique of pin/string setting in the unisons contributes to the string's (piano's) overall tone."...

A great deal, that contribute is vaste. Like voicing, unisons build up the sound body, unisons determine the sound's consistency and duration, together with the sound colour. Pin setting too is foundamental, tuning's stability and pin block singing go with pin Vs string balanced opposition. Make sure that the string's tension is coherently distributed along the three sections of the string.

..."I am interested in learning more your experience(s)/method(s) in tuning unisons up and down the scale as a method of providing better tuning stability and maintaining interval widths as strings are brought up to pitch."...

You mean the order of tuning. Indeed I think that the bridge and sound-board can better adjust in that way, the changes in loading/tension are better spread out.

..."Single bass notes come last in the tuning for me, even after all the tri-chord unions are complete up to C8."...

For me too. But at that end, after the bass, I check all unisons and refine the 8th octave.

..."BTW, I am a big fan of Kent's tuning sequences - a huge help for my speed and accuracy. Bill's ET via Marpug and progressive 3ds has been helpful as well."...

Very good and thanks, I like your enthusiasm.

a.c.

.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/17/10 04:43 AM

Jake, all available intervals are checked, but in their primary beat, not by comparing beats of other intervals (hence not checking at different partial levels). for instance 5ths are listened for their 3:2 beat, not with a M6 M10 test (I know some will say it is the same !)

That is way quieter for the ear.
The idea also to check only intervals that follow each other and are not contiguous or in ladder, is easier, and install the tuner in close contact with the beat acceleration curves within the piano.

I have seen the method as being really closely in the "heart" of the subject at all times (assuming the final result wanted is understood)

I'll let Alfredo explain , so to avoid mistakes.


Because the process involves a good sence for beats speed (on one string) it may be used by beginners, they will probably learn more how to listen efficiently and understand what they have there

And when you finally have obtained a progressiveness of all beats while you did not use the usual test, you feel more confident (in the method and in your ability to realize it), that also is a good thing.


Isaac








Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/17/10 05:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin


I'll ask my Brother, which is violonist, what he think about large fifths (and small ones ! )


Hopefully he also have some humour ! Ill let you know what he say.

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-parodies-transcriptions-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00166GMGS




My Bro's Raphaël Oleg (violonist) said that he liked your tuning, find it very smooth and gentle, while enlighted. (he asked if I had a grasp on the method, too..)
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/17/10 07:12 AM


Jake, you ask:

...1. When you speak of a preparatory tuning, do you mean what most American and Northern European tuners would call setting the bearing or setting the temperament, along with getting other notes close to the final form?

The Pre-tuning sets the Pre-temperament, and I do not distinguish the traditional one-or-two octaves temperament from the whole keyboard's. In other words, the Pre-tuning is my (attempted) final tuning, but the piano gets the final form, i.e. the final 88 keys temperament, only when I unison. The piano's final form (where the piano will adjust) is what I have in mind when tuning centre strings, and the Pre-tuning stretch (on centre strings) needs to be a little sharper from C4 up.

...2. I'm starting to wonder if there is a separate tradition of Italian tuning and temperaments. Most of the temperaments I've examined come from Germany, France, England, and the U.S. Your terminology, and your love of metaphor, makes me wonder if Italy, or at least Sicily, has developed a parallel tradition. Who taught you to tune?

I do not think we have a separate tradition. I use metaphores in the hope to explain myself, but also because pianos issues like tension, stretch, energy and accuracy, are part of my (our?) dayly life. I was helped by two Italians and three Japanese top tuners, Otani sun, Saida sun, Osato sun.

...3. Was he or she in turn taught in a specific school or by a specific method that may have a name--something we could learn more about? Are there books by Italian tuners or theorists that you could point us to?

I think the Japanese ones may have got some hints from Germany. About Italian books, I can certainly point them to you if you wish, in the three I read I found the same mistakes about octaves and fifths, and no concern of what I'm describing.

...4. More specifically, I wonder about something that may seem cliched, and that I hope you will not find insulting: Is there is a tuning tradition in Italy that derives in part from accompanying singers, from bel canto? I ask this question because your playing, and tuning, have a vocal, singing quality. And your metaphor of the bow reminds me of a similar metaphor I've heard singers use when teaching about vocal projection.

For sure, in Italy there is a strong singing tradition. Opera singers from all over the world come to Italy for refining their technique. I like singing too but my in tune urge derives from my ear. So, I can only tell you about my family tradition, one orchestra director, one singer and many amatorial musicians.

Vocal projection has similar sounds issues: control and balancing of body tensions (piano structure), tone building (unisons), resonance of the head cavities (pin-block singing).

..."I suspect that, behind all of this math and theory, there is a love of singing, and a piano adapted to vocal performance."...

My case is a bit more extreme. I do like singing and I've got a bad desease: music in all its forms, and rhythms. When I compare beats I am on a rhythm-level, I'm there with all my intention while my ear is the supervisor.

..."(I'm not trying to undermine your mathematical ideas--I'm praising the results, and curious to learn if the desired tone arises from a tradition.)"...

Do not worry, I find you very polite. Thank you, a.c.

.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/18/10 06:01 AM

I have always used 12ths as a limit for stretch. As I am actually getting the use of the method and sequence Alfredo use, I am changing the way I consider that.
SO my answers can only be temporary !

The first octave enlarge very little, the beat begin very late. In my usual way, I let the piano and room acoustic decide of the width of that first octave (F3-F4) and check it with 6:3 4:2 with approx 1/3 bps at 4:2 level. But I have seenn and used more than that, up to 1/2 bps, and some concert tunings I've seen (a little extreme but very sonorous) had more than 1Bps. The beats are hiding in the spectra, they only push the resonance of the ocatve. If they are slow enough they couple after a little time, and the octave is heard as pure.

For what I know on a moderately stretched temperament octave all octaves toward up are highly stretched in the "standard" German Steinway concert tuning ("stretch to the max, but coherent") As much as the spectra of the piano can accept.

Hence those too vivid major harmonies in the 5th octave that can be heard in slow moves sometime.

Stretching on a well open medium lower the speed the RBI raises, and provide more global coherence.

The unison quality is more than part of the stretch in fact. their projection "push the spectra" more or less high depending of the way they are build. I wonder if we can call "opening of the unison" the fact that center string is related to the wanted justness, while the outer strings are dealing with the iH and are more or less in the high end of the spectra.

Coupling the partials, is not always allowing the fundamental to couple as soon, hence the opening of the tone.

In may usual way, I use a strong fundamental coupling that projects the whole spectra (attack tuning), then only I body the tone. (the sensation may be felt under the fingers)

That makes for 2 actions (and once coming from under) while coming from above at any time seemm more stable and keep the charging of the pinblock optimum.
At some moment the attack is also tuned, (taking the question from the opposite) it is because of the time needed for the coupling of the partials, it enlarge the attack time.

What I dont get is that I was believing that I acted on the first millisecond of tone, while there they are a consequence of the remaining, the tone is bodied from too open, if I get well the point. I may say that getting use to recognize the flow of energy within the string is a real shortcut to unisons, but the tone may be "wedged" afterthat, the other end of the spectra open. (as when correcting unisons on a concert piano).
I hope I'll get by with something more analytic after more tunings.


Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/18/10 08:28 AM


Hello Isaac,

I thank your Brother and you for reporting his comment. It will be meaningfull for me to also know whether he finds Chas Theory's approach (sections 2.0, 3.0) shareable or somehow obscure.

..."I have always used 12ths as a limit for stretch...I am changing the way I consider that."...

For stretch, I was used to evaluating RBIs and follow my ear for judging how much "salt" (stretch) wanting to add. Today I'm used to evaluating RBIs, add a little bit more salt in consideration of piano's dynamics, up untill I get the first 12th, A3-E5. There I get the Pre-tuning stretch's measure.

..."SO my answers can only be temporary !"...

This is grasping! Indeed a challenge, how can it be possible to grasp Time? Going along its version-in-version (O).

..."The first octave enlarge very little, the beat begin very late."...

Yes, the slow beat-rolling raises after almost 2 secs.

..."The beats are hiding in the spectra, they only push the resonance of the octave."...

Yes, nice way of describing it. All partials, in the octave intervals, want to sing. Or, the octave can sing and deliver all partial sounds in the natural order and the most lyrical way.

..."If they are slow enough they couple after a little time, and the octave is heard as pure."...

Yes, partials only need to be sung/displayed by the octave.

..."The unison quality is more than part of the stretch in fact. Their projection "push the spectra" more or less high depending of the way they are build."...

Yes, unisons can change the whole outcome.

..."I wonder if we can call "opening of the unison" the fact that center string is related to the wanted justness, while the outer strings are dealing with the iH and are more or less in the high end of the spectra."...

Open or close is in fact what we can do with the sound's body, by unisonsing.

..."Coupling the partials, is not always allowing the fundamental to couple as soon, hence the opening of the tone."...

Yes, like if partials were drained away.

..."In my usual way, I use a strong fundamental coupling that projects the whole spectra (attack tuning), then only I body the tone. (the sensation may be felt under the fingers)"...

I bear in mind two targets: sound duration and colour univocity all along the keyboard, wich I check using the "diabolus in musica": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone

..."That makes for 2 actions (and once coming from under) while coming from above at any time seemm more stable and keep the charging of the pinblock optimum.
At some moment the attack is also tuned, (taking the question from the opposite) it is because of the time needed for the coupling of the partials, it enlarge the attack time."...

From above is how I get unisons. Turn the pin clock-wise the right amount, charge the pin anticlock-wise just a little over, i.e. little little flat, release and accompany the pin on the desired point, the correct energy relation between the string's pulling and the pin's charge. As for centre strings, also the unisons must be the correct outcome of energy balance. BTW Isaac, do you play billiards?

..."I may say that getting use to recognize the flow of energy within the string is a real shortcut to unisons, but the tone may be "wedged" afterthat, the other end of the spectra open. (as when correcting unisons on a concert piano)."...

Oh, this last one, for once, I do not get what you mean!

Best regards, Alfredo.

.


Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/18/10 02:20 PM

Jake, you wrote:

..."If I understand correctly, the 12ths can't used as checks below A3, since checking on 3:1 would give wider M5's than are desired in the tenor and bass. Are there any other checks for the ranges below that point, using 12ths or other intervals?"...

Below A3, i.e. tuning G#3 and down, I use 4ths (wide, pro-slackening), 5ths (narrow, pro-slackening), 6ths (pro-slackening), octaves (pro-widening), and check 10ths (pro-slackening) and so on. From C3 down, Chas 4ths invert and get wider and wider.

Isaac, you write:

..."Because the process involves a good sence for beats speed (on one string) it may be used by beginners, they will probably learn more how to listen efficiently and understand what they have there."...

Too often I've seen tuners very much concerned with beats, fearing they would not hear them, fearing to turn their lever and depart from a point, where they had causally got, wich they may never find again. In my opinion, the whole approach needs to be different.

..."And when you finally have obtained a progressiveness of all beats while you did not use the usual test, you feel more confident (in the method and in your ability to realize it), that also is a good thing."...

You are right (O). Using normal tests, we try to check some sort of equal beating, true?

Now, what is more difficult, guessing equal beating or progressiveness of chromatic intervals? Are we better in detecting equality or diversity?

About equality, we may swear two beats are equal, while not perceiving the infinitesimal long-time difference. About diversity, if we hear two different beats, say one little faster than the second one, how many chances that we are wrong are there? And that we confuse slower with faster?

Even leaving tests and exposure to iH aside, in my opinion, guessing equal beating is a hard task, it opens to errors and the banal approximations + settlings are going to sum up.

So I'd say that comparative progressiveness may be the truest and most vivid confirmation that I'm gaining my favorite tuning, ops, Pre-tuning form.

Regards, a.c.

.


Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/21/10 04:44 PM


Isaac,

you were wondering about energy.

On this subject, I found of interest this reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_energy

and the book example too: "When the book hits the floor this kinetic energy is converted into heat and sound by the impact."

Regards, a.c.

P.S.: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89nergie_potentielle

.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/22/10 05:08 AM


You may agree on one (O) foundamental factor : Relating Time or Timing.

I was a child when I was taught that every action demands its own time (do you know of any home-saying?). Only later on I could relate this principle to myself and to my actions result, depending on the object.

As for many situations now, also when I turn and charge a pin, I know I have to look for the best Time relation between what I do and how, and the effects of what I’m doing.

Many pins have their own reaction-time, each pin may demand its own time for me to charge it.

The time I spend for tightening the string, turning the pin clock-wise, from flat up to the spot and wide, it is also the time I need for "reading" the single pin’s behaviour and it may as well be the time the pin itself needs for re-adjusting its structure.


.
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/24/10 01:10 PM

Alfredo:

I'm having some problems working with the Scala file for CHas in PianoTeq, partly because I'm still trying to understand CHas, and partly because I'm still trying to understand some of the intricacies of Scala:

1. I know that you don't set a separate bearing or temperament before tuning, but Scala requires that one start the tuning on one pitch. By default, that pitch is middle C. I'm not sure that's the best place to start. Would A3, the A below A=440, be a better place?

2. Does the s1 offset occur at each octave, or does it come at the start of each unit of 24 notes?

Thanks. (The Scala file that was posted on the PianoTeq site may be fine. I'm just having trouble believing that it was so easy for someone to create and get right the first time.)


Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/25/10 02:52 AM


Hello Jake,

..."1. I know that you don't set a separate bearing or temperament before tuning, but Scala requires that one start the tuning on one pitch. By default, that pitch is middle C. I'm not sure that's the best place to start. Would A3, the A below A=440, be a better place?"...

Only logically speacking (+ pinch of salt), it should make no difference whether you start from mid-C or another place.

..."2. Does the s1 offset occur at each octave, or does it come at the start of each unit of 24 notes?"...

I do not really know, it may depend on how the S-file expandes the unit, and/or if you can control that. One more trial could be made with 49 notes, wich is the Chas symmetry compass (R-report, section 3.4). There, by taking the semitone 24 as the centre, you gain two 15ths (+ delta, 0-24 and 24-48) and four 12ths (minus-delta). I wish I knew what S-file really needs...

..."(The Scala file that was posted on the PianoTeq site may be fine. I'm just having trouble believing that it was so easy for someone to create and get right the first time.)"...

Good approach, let's believe with a small b...he wrote "I'm impressed by the increase of harmonic resonance you get with this temperament."...but of course, that could be relative...I look forward to hearing some tests and, as you suggest, to analysing in depth.

Thank you, a.c.

.
Posted by: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/25/10 09:54 AM

All:

I read what the on line Pianoteq manual had to say about inharmonicity. I hope it is applied better than it was written about. Phrases something like: So called inharmonicity..., People say that manufacturese want to get rid of all inharmonicity..., and The 33 foot piano would have practically no inharmonicity... Have me wondering how iH is dealt with in the simulation.

If someone could post the frequencies of the 3rd and 4th partials of the As of a tuning I could crunch the numbers and let everyone know how they are dealing with iH.
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/25/10 11:52 AM

Hi, Jeff. My impression is that the PianoTeq stretch matches on different partials in different ranges.

Regardless, here are the freqs for the 3rd and 4th partials of the A's for the PianoTeq C3, with the default stretching applied and the temperament set to ET. (One thing: PianoTeq uses Middle C = C3. Thus A3=440. I've retaining that nomenclature below.)

A-1: 82 110
A0: 165 220
A1: 330 440
A2: 660 881
A3: 1324 1770
A4: 2672 3590
A5: 5486 7488
A6: 11895 16916

It's also possible to turn off the stretching in PianoTeq, so that it's tuned to straight ET. Let me know if you want me to post the freqs with that setting, too.

Cheers.
Posted by: pianophil

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 05:09 AM



Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
All:
I read what the on line Pianoteq manual had to say about inharmonicity. I hope it is applied better than it was written about. Phrases something like: So called inharmonicity..., People say that manufacturese want to get rid of all inharmonicity..., and The 33 foot piano would have practically no inharmonicity... Have me wondering how iH is dealt with in the simulation.


Hi Jeff,
Philippe Guillaume from Modartt here. My first post here I think, so Hello to everybody smile

Here is what we wrote in the manual:
"A parameter which greatly affects the timbre (and the tuning) is the so-called inharmonicity: the more inharmonic the strings, the more the overtone frequencies of each string are driven away from their theoretical values f, 2f, 3f... and the more the piano sound will resemble a bell.
Inharmonicity decreases very rapidly with string length. Experiment by changing the String length. The difference will be most evident in the bass range. You can choose up to a 10 meter long piano! At such a size, there is almost no more inharmonicity. People say that piano manufacturers dreamed of producing pianos without inharmonicity..." (this was a bit of a humoristic touch, being myself piano tuner)

And also:
“A unique feature of Pianoteq is that tuning does not follow a pre-computed frequency table (except for the flat temperament), but takes into account the inharmonicity of the strings, in the same way a piano tuner does with acoustic pianos. Hence, the consonance of the notes is improved and the chords have a fuller and richer sound.”

Back to the subject of this thread, I would like to point the fact that for those who want to experiment the CHAS tuning in Pianoteq, they can use SCALA files and load them in Pianoteq, and if the last note in the SCALA file has a value different from 1200.0 (or 2/1), then the inharmonicity will be by-passed and the frequencies will be exactly those specified in the SCALA file. Thus exact experimenting is possible.

Here is how to proceed after creating your own scala file (below an example of an 88 notes scala file content):
- tuning section, click on the "mu" microtuning button
- import the SCALA file via the "scale" menu
- choose "88 notes scale" in the keymap menu

Example of flat tuning 88 SCALA file, copy paste the content between the dotted lines and name the file allnotesflat.scl:
-------------------------------------------------------------
! allnotesflat.scl
!
all notes flat temperament
87
!
100.0
200.0
300.0
400.0
500.0
600.0
700.0
800.0
900.0
1000.0
1100.0
1200.0
1300.0
1400.0
1500.0
1600.0
1700.0
1800.0
1900.0
2000.0
2100.0
2200.0
2300.0
2400.0
2500.0
2600.0
2700.0
2800.0
2900.0
3000.0
3100.0
3200.0
3300.0
3400.0
3500.0
3600.0
3700.0
3800.0
3900.0
4000.0
4100.0
4200.0
4300.0
4400.0
4500.0
4600.0
4700.0
4800.0
4900.0
5000.0
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7100.0
7200.0
7300.0
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8000.0
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-------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 07:37 AM

Philippe:

Welcome aboard!

Thanks for quoting the manual. I did not think it would be appropriate for me to. It will be interesting to see what results I get from the numbers that Jake provided.
Posted by: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 10:17 AM

All:

Here are the calculated iH values appended to the list of frequencies for the 3rd and 4th partials that Jake graciously provided:

A-1: 82 110, iH 1.5 (see note)
A0: 165 220, iH 0.0 (see note)
A1: 330 440, iH 0.0 (see note)
A2: 660 881, iH 0.28 (see note)
A3: 1324 1770, iH 0.66
A4: 2672 3590, iH 1.89
A5: 5486 7488, iH 5.79
A6: 11895 16916, iH 15.94

NOTE: The iH values for the lower notes could not be accurately calculated due to lack of decimal places for the frequencies of the partials.

The general slope from A2 to A6 shows the iH doubling about every 8 semitones which is appropriate. Below A2 the slope cannot be determined due to the inaccuracy of the iH calculation.

Philippe:

What sort of slope is used for iH in the bass? Does the slope resemble a straight line from note 1 to note 88 on a log graph, or is it somewhat “V” shaped like the iH slope of actual pianos?
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 10:19 AM

Hi, Philippe. Thanks for the explanation of how to set up PianoTeq with an 88 note scale.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 10:25 AM

3: 1324 1770, iH 0.66 at A49 is pretty standard for a modern instrument.
(I've find 0.7 with tunelab spectra analysis, but the accuracy on a pocket pc is probably so so.
Posted by: pianophil

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 10:58 AM

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Philippe:

What sort of slope is used for iH in the bass? Does the slope resemble a straight line from note 1 to note 88 on a log graph, or is it somewhat “V” shaped like the iH slope of actual pianos?


Jeff, it is a V with a lower point that can vary depending on the instrument that is modelled. This lower point shifts to the left when you increase the piano size (string length parameter in the interface). For some particular historical instruments, it's more complicate than a V as there are sometimes some sudden discontinuities (broken curve).
Posted by: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 11:23 AM

Thanks, Philippe:

Great! It seems that the simulator should reproduce the tuning of a well scaled piano.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 02:45 PM


Hello Philippe,

I Thank you very much for your involvement and for your help on how to load Chas in Pianoteq.

The opportunity to experiment this temperament can make a great difference, since it may reveal some of this model's qualities and limitations.

Knowing about Pianoteq performances and your experience in piano tuning has been good news for me, as it is not easy to find a reliable device nor someone with both maths and tuning skills.

Chas, as many theoretical models, is meant to translate practical observations and, in this case, what I could experiment throughout my tunings.

About the chance to analyse in depth and share this new approach to the sound scale and its practical effects, I shall welcome any form of collaboration or support that you may be able to offer, at any time.

Best regards, a.c.

.
Posted by: pianophil

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 04:52 PM

Hi Alfredo,
it's my pleasure if I can help you in some way. If ever you need precise information on the inharmonicity of a particular piano model of Pianoteq to build scala files (knowing that inharmonicity is by-passed in Pianoteq as soon as the last note is not 1200.0), do not hesitate asking me and I will provide you with the values.
Cheers,
Philippe
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 11:25 PM

Hmm. May be another problem. If iH vanishes when the last note in a Scala file isn't 2x the freq of the first, iH will be turned off in PTeq when CHas is used. That's one of the things that needed testing, if I understand correctly--how the CHas temperament interacts with iH.

If an offset was specified in an 11 freq Scala file, instead of an entry that didn't equal 2X, would PTeq still detect the change on note 12, and shut off iH?
Posted by: pianophil

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 04:07 AM

Jake, in that case (11 notes with the 11th not being 2/1) iH will be taken into account.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 04:32 AM

Jake, the iH cant be "shut down'" in my opinion, as it is a composante of the tone. a piano tone without iH may well be unrecognizeable as a piano tone (that would be an interesting test BTW)

To me, what is aborted is the use of the iH correction formula, that allow the intervals as octaves, double,s triples, to have less beats produced by the partials.
Philippe tells that it is done "as by a tuner" that mean when listening for an octave the tuner try to have it "beatless" so he tune the top note a little high of the exact 1/2 ratio, so the partials of the top note rub the less with the partials of the lower note. what size of octave daoes it provide I will know in amoment.

We can use the anglo saxon tuners terminology to "name" the octaves in regard of the way the partials are matching.
For instance if the 2nd partial of the bottom note match the first partial (funamental) of the top note of the ocatve, the ocatve is said 2:1 , if the octave is ruled an octave above the 4th partial of the bottom note join the second of the top note it is an 4:2 octave, following are 6:3 8:4 10:5 octaves, the concept say that the size (opening) of the octave vary depending of the partial match. It works up to some point, as the result is a coupling of those partials with the coupling of the real 2:1 relation that is also installed in, anyway.

Practically this emphasis the tone of the said partial, which is not always the best thing. The defect of the method is that the partials strenght vary with the voicing, so not the same combination apply in any case, and also the tuner's ear when too much trained to listen in thos high pitched regions, tend to forget to listen more fundamentally, some intervals can be "driven by the noze" in the end...

The same apply when tuning unisons in my opinion : the fundamental couple, and the partials coupling is added to that to open the tone. My usual way to tune unison by regulation of the stabilisation time of the partials install a coupling without listening much to the high partials, but with an assessment of how the energy of the attack is spread and in how much time it stabilize. Those are tactile sensations as well as listening) . But then it is easy to leave whistles in the high regions, with that approach or to have a strong tone which is mostly focused on fundamental strength, closed with lot of energy immediately.


My guess/theory is that if a tuning have a set of relation that use a "natural equilibrium between the partials, this may well contrary the iH of the piano. The strings have iH because of their stiffness, cant they tend to vibe and produce natural harmonics or no ? if so providing them a support or a fundation will help the frequencies to couple toward those (as all the frequencies tend to couple, they dont try to go apart from each other)


Then in the best case, the "natural" tuning would be provided by the center string, the coupling of the external ones taking in account the ih (focusing on the 2-3-4-4 partial match more than on fundamental. When well done the 2outer strings finish at the same exact pitch, while they dont have been tuned together (but each have been tuned to the center string)

This is what can be called "bodying the tone" . As a result, the stabilization of the attack is somehow delayed (later), but the strenght sensation remain, simply a little later. (to my trained ears, I have no idea of the time involved it may count in milliseconds I suppose)

I hope I have made a correct description of an "open" tone.

































In theory , this apply, but it is also a somewhat simplist explanation, as the voicin
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 05:19 AM

Hi Jake,

just some questions, following what Philippe wrote when he was asked:

"What sort of slope is used for iH in the bass? Does the slope resemble a straight line from note 1 to note 88 on a log graph, or is it somewhat “V” shaped like the iH slope of actual pianos?

Philippe's: "Jeff, it is a V with a lower point that can vary depending on the instrument that is modelled. This lower point shifts to the left when you increase the piano size (string length parameter in the interface)."...

Today you write:..."That's one of the things that needed testing, if I understand correctly--how the CHas temperament interacts with iH."...

You are exactly on the crucial issue, and I can add only some logical elaborations that lead to more questions.

If the lower point of the iH's slope can shift to the left, depending on the increase of the string's lenth, what will the iH's slope resemble, when using the longest string?

Is the usual iH slope normally referred to 2:1 ratio? What happens when the bass frequencies and consequent strings tension are lowered, like in Chas? Is iH decreased? Should we expect the same frequencies deviation for the high notes?

About approximations: if the string's iH can be decreased (by lowering the bass strings tension and/or increasing the string's length), should we use always the same iH parameter? Should we expect the same iH's slope? The same iH that doubles every 8 semitones? Does not the semitone variate, depending on the incremental ratio?

When do we say "well scaled piano"? Only when we find the usually expected frequencies deviations? Can iH be controlled (spread?), string after string, by playing with string's lengths and diameters (first) and eventually tensions (read frequencies)?

Isaac, I'll add on your good points later.

Regards, a.c.

.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 05:46 AM

In my comprehension of the thing, when you lower the tension on a given string on agiven piano, you lower the elasticity of the wire, its stiffness raise, hence the iH.

But this is a simplist point of view.

And I suggest that the differnce when tuning with this or that "stretch" is too minimal to be effective at the iH range in an audible way.

I see more resonance quality related to coupling, and harmonic quality related to coherence in beat relations.


In scaling we try to keep the ih at a moderate level at A49 then check the progressivness to avoid jumps. But tension , iH and wire constrain are intimely related, as the fact that the wire may not stretch with too much variability or the piano will loose its tuning more easily with seasonal changes.
So in the end for a given sacle lenght not so many choices remain. Certainly some prefer high tension scales and other low tension. iH level will differ in those cases, but stay coherent within the instrument.

The lenght of the strings rule the remaining (but I did not really work on scaling as some that rescale pianos.

When talking with one of the engineer from Bechstein he said to me that there is much more in soundboard, case, and even plate behaviour than in scaling, assuming some basic rules are respected for the latest. the "rescaling trend" make him smile in that regard (but not all pianos have an ideal scale even now) .
We can have a few choices with wire style (stiffness and resistance, timbral behaviour)

One of the parameters that relate to iH and that was not much discussed is the wire constrain, or "sollicitation". It can raise to very high levels vs. the breaking limit of the wire, as it lower the iH and provide a better mechanical behaviour (more elasticity), as for Sauter pianos, if I belive in what have been said to me)
I suppose that it may relate to soundboard stiffness and impedance, then.
Those points are out of my focus by now.

High tension scale may be for instance Fazioli if my basics are good. low tension may be Bechstein.

......









Posted by: pianophil

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 11:27 AM

Isaac, thanks for your remark, I wasn't clear when mentioning that iH would be taken into account or not in Pianoteq. What I meant is that iH will be taken into account or not for the tuning depending on the value of the last note in the scala file. But of course, in all cases, the notes will have their normal iH when played in Pianoteq.
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 01:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
...Practically, [matching partials] emphasizes the tone of the said partial, which is not always the best thing. The defect of the method is that the partials strenght vary with the voicing, so not the same combination apply in any case, and also the tuner's ear when too much trained to listen in thos high pitched regions, tend to forget to listen more fundamentally, some intervals can be "driven by the noze" in the end...

The same apply when tuning unisons in my opinion : the fundamental couple, and the partials coupling is added to that to open the tone. My usual way to tune unison by regulation of the stabilisation time of the partials install a coupling without listening much to the high partials, but with an assessment of how the energy of the attack is spread and in how much time it stabilize. Those are tactile sensations as well as listening) . But then it is easy to leave whistles in the high regions, with that approach or to have a strong tone which is mostly focused on fundamental strength, closed with lot of energy immediately.

My guess/theory is that if a tuning have a set of relation that use a "natural equilibrium between the partials, this may well contrary the iH of the piano. The strings have iH because of their stiffness, cant they tend to vibe and produce natural harmonics or no ? if so providing them a support or a fundation will help the frequencies to couple toward those (as all the frequencies tend to couple, they dont try to go apart from each other)

Then in the best case, the "natural" tuning would be provided by the center string, the coupling of the external ones taking in account the ih (focusing on the 2-3-4-4 partial match more than on fundamental. When well done the 2outer strings finish at the same exact pitch, while they dont have been tuned together (but each have been tuned to the center string)

This is what can be called "bodying the tone" . As a result, the stabilization of the attack is somehow delayed (later), but the strenght sensation remain, simply a little later. (to my trained ears, I have no idea of the time involved it may count in milliseconds I suppose) I hope I have made a correct description of an "open" tone.


May I ask questions about the specifics of the unison tuning for CHas, just to be sure that I understand?

1. Kamin speaks of the unisons not matching on a single partial. How precisely are the outer strings pitched slightly differently to emphasize (through equal beating) specific partials on the center string? One outer string beats equally with partial 1 and 4, for example, and the other beats equally with partial 3 and 6, making the tone evolve towards consonance so that the energy isn't dissipated too fast? In other words, do you listen for these specific beats as you tune the upper unisons? (I understand that they are coupled, also, so that per Weinreich, their interaction in time is actually more complex than I'm acknowledging. I'm just trying to understand the intended pitching of the outer strings as heard during tuning.)

2. How far have people gone in the direction of reducing the "stretch" in tunings and using the raised unisons to reduce the perceived iH? In other words, I can imagine a piano tuned with very little stretch in the upper regions (and CHas has less than some tunings), if the unisons pull the perceived pitch higher by beating with harmonic partials. Are there specific tunings or mistunings or discussions\experiments in this direction that anyone could point me towards? ( I can imagine things like lowering the tension\diapason very slightly and then making the unisons raise the perceived pitch.)

(As an aside: I experimented with pushing that idea a little further one night in PianoTeq, lowering the pitch of some notes past narrowing the octaves, so some notes wavered near flat, and then pushing their unisons up so the notes sounded "in tune." Blame the wine, please. It may be a bad idea, but the sound was not always terrible. Past a certain point, of course, the note just stays flat, but I'm still playing around with this, willing to follow a bad idea to its logical conclusion just to see where the road gets muddy.)
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 06:15 PM


Hi Jake, you write:

..."May I ask questions about the specifics of the unison tuning for CHas, just to be sure that I understand?

1. Kamin speaks of the unisons not matching on a single partial. How precisely are the outer strings pitched slightly differently to emphasize (through equal beating) specific partials on the center string?"...

I tune the outer strings a little wide. More precisely, while going from wide to the spot, I can hear the partials of the harmonic series. When they reduce in number, I distinguish the point where I hear the 4th, the 3rd and the 2nd.

With my lever, I go anti-clock a little more, so to end charging the pin, then I want the 2nd partial to beam with the foundamental tone of the note I'm unisoning. This, in my experience, gains the longest tone-sustain.

..."2. How far have people gone in the direction of reducing the "stretch" in tunings and using the raised unisons to reduce the perceived iH?"...

I can not answer, I simply do not know.

..."Are there specific tunings or mistunings or discussions\experiments in this direction that anyone could point me towards? ( I can imagine things like lowering the tension\diapason very slightly and then making the unisons raise the perceived pitch.)"...

I do not like raising unisons, unless I find a dead-tone, a bad key with poor sound. No clue about discussions/experiments.

..."I experimented with pushing that idea a little further one night in PianoTeq, lowering the pitch of some notes past narrowing the octaves, so some notes wavered near flat, and then pushing their unisons up so the notes sounded "in tune."...

Also in my experience, mid-register unisons raise the three-chord pich, but when you increase the string's tension you also increase the load onto the bridge, and this effects the nearby piches, especially in the high register.

..."willing to follow a bad idea to its logical conclusion just to see where the road gets muddy."

That is nice, in a way I did the same. When I could not stand anymore my flattening tunings, I left the road my ear would suggest and went for that mud. Today I can gain Chas form only if I tune a wider stretch, the Pre-form.

Regards, a.c.

.
Posted by: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/01/10 07:49 AM

Alfredo:

In another Topic you posted ”I'd better precise: 4ths beat very much in the bass, progressive slowering up to C3 and progressive fastening, going up. At C5 4ths collaps. 5ths go the way you say, "fastest in the middle of the piano and slower to the ends". Actually, at the ends 5ths sound pure, this gives you an idea of how slow they beat, of how little they can be narrow. But in Pre-tuning (centre string), high 5ths get wide.

OK, I seem to have misunderstood the beat rate progression of the 4ths and 5ths when you tune. This makes much more sense. When 4ths get slower, 5ths must get faster and visa versa. And the faster the 4ths are in relation to the 5ths, the wider the octave type. So the progression of 4ths and 5ths indicate the widest octave type at the ends and the narrowest in the middle.

This type of tuning is inconsistent with equal beating 12ths and 15ths which call for a general narrowing of the octave type while going up in the treble. But then, if I understand you correctly, this is the “Chas Preparatory Tuning” which when after the unisons are tuned, produces equal beating 12ths and 15ths. I did make a post a while ago about a possible explanation for how the tuning could change when tuning unison, but since I have never experienced this I am going to continue to consider this to be an “Indulgent Mystery.”
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/01/10 09:24 AM

Ohi Jeff, good news.

..."When 4ths get slower, 5ths must get faster and visa versa."...

Yes, From the bass up to C3. Here, 4ths get faster and 5ths too continue to get faster up to A3-E4. I'm glad if you get this and I apologize if my English was not correct.

you write:..."This type of tuning is inconsistent with equal beating 12ths and 15ths which call for a general narrowing of the octave type while going up in the treble."...

Actually, Prepare-Chas octaves are S shaped, so 5ths from the bass can go narrower up to mid-range, then invert and go less and less narrow.

..."But then, if I understand you correctly, this is the “Chas Preparatory Tuning” which when after the unisons are tuned, produces equal beating 12ths and 15ths."...

Yes.

..."I did make a post a while ago about a possible explanation for how the tuning could change when tuning unison,"...

Sorry... maybe if I had read that.

..."but since I have never experienced this I am going to continue to consider this to be an “Indulgent Mystery.”"...

Wait Jeff. The "Indulgent Mystery" may be how ET octaves can not be progressive and how ET 12ths and 15ths can routinely (and out of rule) be inverted in the high register, i.e. what has been repeatedly written in Chas main Topic.

Also an "Indulgent Mystery" may be how 4ths and 5ths should be tuned when tempering what ever ET temperament-module, and down C3, where I'm stating that Chas 4ths invert.

Anyway, today I think I was told about quasi-ET, so for me it is not really a mystery anymore. If I may suggest, do experience the Prepare-Tuning.

a.c.



Posted by: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/01/10 09:36 AM

Alfredo:

Look at my post on 21.12.09, this Topic.

"S-shaped octaves" do not tell me much. But saying if the fifths become wide of just intonation does. Do the fifths become wide of just intonation or not???? Some of your posts seem to say one thing and some another. If the fifths become just, then the 12ths are wide of just unless only some octaves are narrow which would then mean that it is probably not ET.

And I am the one that gets to choose what I consider to be an "Indulgent Mystery."
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/01/10 10:24 AM

http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/beats.html

Have an ear at what is presented as correctly tuned beat rates for 3 octaves C-4-5 played together :
http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/sounds/coctpart.mp3
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/01/10 02:56 PM

(This is just an aside\interruption, but one that I hope I can make here for the people who are experimenting with Pianoteq. It's available at an academic discount--if you are affiliated with a school or university, there's a different pricing scale. I don't know what the adjustment is. There's a form to fill out at http://www.pianoteq.com/faq?pianoteq=e76fed63871b9bef6603314640867334 . I'm not part of Modartt, by the way. Just a user and fan. The program seems to be a natural match for these discussions. Cheers.)
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/10 04:03 AM


Jeff, you ask:

..."Do the fifths become wide of just intonation or not?"...

Yes, on centre strings Pre-Tuning, very slowly-progressive wide. But after unisons you want 5ths to sound just.

Then, it is better to distinguish what may be needed for the piano to release Chas, from what Chas Form is, which is the point of this thread.

Whether Chas theory can be conventionally said to be ET I'd say yes, since all semitones are numerically equal in size. And in practice too, RBI are "ET" progressive.

For tuning this ET you may start following some "technical" instructions, even if in bits and peaces.

..."And I am the one that gets to choose what I consider to be an "Indulgent Mystery."...

Ok, but since it is a patent, you'll have to correspond the partials rights, 3 and 4, all together US $7.00.

- . - . - . -

...People who are experimenting with Pianoteq. It's available at an academic discount--if you are affiliated with a school or university, there's a different pricing scale.

Thanks Jake for this information and for the link above.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/10 07:22 AM

Alfredo:

”Ok, but since it is a patent, you'll have to correspond the partials rights, 3 and 4, all together US $7.00.”

I will gladly pay your price for the patent rights on the term “Indulgent Mystery” next time I am in Augusta Bay. Perhaps in liquid refreshment at one of the cafes I fondly remember?
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/10 07:45 AM

I'm still trying to learn more about the unison technique. I know that you and Kamin have explained it, and that it has a history. I'm sorry if I seem to be asking the same question several times, but:

1. If the unisons are pitched very slightly higher, so that they have partials that beat equally with partials on the center string, is their fundamental also beating against the fundamental of the center string?

2. Assuming that the answer is yes, is the perceived pitch of the "note" raised to the pitch half-way between the pitch of the center string and the pitches (which may differ) of the unisons? Which means that the perceived pitch emerges from the beating fundamentals and partials of the three strings.

3. Is it thus true to say that, in this method of tuning, there is no one string in the trichord that, if plucked, would be at the same pitch as the pitch heard when all three strings are played together?

4. The 12'ths are slightly flat across the keyboard, if I understand correctly. Should they, after the unisons are tuned in this way, be heard as just? Should some of them, at least, such as above A440?

5.Are the two outer strings usually in unison with one another (as just as possible), or are they pitched to beat with different partials on the center string. Or does this vary, according to the piano and overall tone desired?

Thanks Alfredo and Kamin. Love the sound of the pianos.
Posted by: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/10 08:03 AM

Jake:

I know your questions are to Alfredo and Isaac, but perhaps I can give another view point.

If any one partial of two strings in a unison are at the same frequency, then all the partials of the two strings of the unison are at the same frequency. This is because the strings have the same physical characteristics, and should have the same inharmonicity.

But when two or more strings of a unison are not at the same frequency when played separately, but very close, when they are played together they can "couple" or "pull' each other into vibrating in phase and at the same frequency. This can give a certain color to the tone, especially at the attack when the coupling takes place. And since the piano is really a percussion instrument the mind remembers this color and attributes it to the decay portion of the sound as well.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/10 08:47 AM


Jeff, good that you took me back to that post of yours.

You wrote:..."I understand that measurements of frequencies of single strings have been compared to a tuned unison with all three strings sounding together."...

Actually, beats have been compared, not frequencies. I've observed the effects of my unisoning on beats, in different registers.

..."A drop in pitch has been observed."...

Yes, like when you do voicing, in any range. Check yourself: compare a 5th (or an octave), say C5-G5, tune pure on centre strings, then unison and listen to your 5th. Is it still pure?

..."But since a higher partial is measured, I am not sure if it is the fundamental frequency that changes or if it is the effective iH of the strings that change"...

Indeed, when I unison I reinforce the pitch of the centre string. As I've explained, I go for a beam, made up by the mid-string's foundamental and its 2nd partial, gained with the outer strings outcome. In a way, the outer string can syntethize the centre string's pitch, i.e. foundamental + partials. Then, I'd say that both the foundamental frencency and the iH of the strings change.

..."and therefore the frequency of the partials and the beat rate of the tuning intervals."...

It may as well be the strengh/precense of the partials and the overall pitch.

..."This effect is an argument for tuning unisons as you go and for adding a bit of extra stretch when tuning an octave so that when the other strings of the unison are tuned the pitch will settle where it belongs."...

Yes, the pitch has to settle where it belongs, beat-wise.

..."Perhaps this is what you are experiencing rather than the piano’s tension equalizing."...

I talk about piano settlings, considering the sum of those two factors (plus the strings adjustements on their three lenghts). Increasing the string's tension involves the change of loading onto the bridge, maybe very very little but for me and Chas form it is still meaningfull. I need to control unisoning effects on closed notes too.

Fine and coherent voicing solves most problems related to the partials outcome. Thinking of a sound, can coherent timbre proportion the relevance and presence of partials? How would that effect your tuning?

a.c.

EDIT: more has been posted, I'll hopefully reply this evening.
Posted by: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/10 09:07 AM

"How would that effect your tuning?"

For the typical middle aged consoles and the old aged uprights, which is about all that I tune, not a bit. I concentrate mostly on stability and general octave stretch. The hammers are rarely in any condition to worry about tuning tone into the unisons. I just mention these things because others are also interested, not that I have much of an opportunity to use them.

But really, I don't know what you are babbling about, and please don't try to explain.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/10 05:31 PM


Hi Jake, you write:

..."1. If the unisons are pitched very slightly higher, so that they have partials that beat equally with partials on the center string, is their fundamental also beating against the fundamental of the center string?"...

You might have read my previous post about unisons.

Anyway, I've not mesured the partials of an outer string, after my unisoning, and compared with the partials of the centre string yet. This may answer your question.

Jeff's statement that if one partial meets, then all partials should meet, may be true in theory. In my opinion each real string has its own "irrational" story. What I know for sure is that I can reinforce the centre string's pitch, by gaining the 2nd partial of the centre string.

In other words, in the unison there is a very precise point where you hear the foundamental and its 2nd partial, the latter going absolutely straight, like if it was surfing on the foundamental. That beam gains the longest sustain.

..."2. Assuming that the answer is yes, is the perceived pitch of the "note" raised to the pitch half-way between the pitch of the center string and the pitches (which may differ) of the unisons?...

Half-way, I do not know. Generally, those unisons raise the pitch.

..."Which means that the perceived pitch emerges from the beating fundamentals and partials of the three strings."...

Definitely, the perceived pitch emerges from the fundamentals and partials of the three strings, it emerges from what is beating and what is not.

..."3. Is it thus true to say that, in this method of tuning, there is no one string in the trichord that, if plucked, would be at the same pitch as the pitch heard when all three strings are played together?"...

True. There is a sum-effect that raises the pitch of the whole trichord. Take this with a POS, as it comes only from my empirical, aural survey.

..."4. The 12'ths are slightly flat across the keyboard, if I understand correctly."...

Correct. Delta-flat all across the keyboard.

..."Should they (12ths), after the unisons are tuned in this way, be heard as just? Should some of them, at least, such as above A440?"

No, after the unisons are tuned, all 12ths must be heard delta-flat.

..."5. Are the two outer strings usually in unison with one another (as just as possible), or are they pitched to beat with different partials on the center string."...

I tune them to that beam, and I've never checked outer strings one another.

..."Or does this vary, according to the piano and overall tone desired?"...

In my tuning, I happen to pitch with different partials on bichords, or grands trichord, when I find odd strings.

..."I'm sorry if I seem to be asking the same question several times"...

You are welcome. a.c.




Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/03/10 01:53 AM

Thank you, Alfredo. I hope you do understand that I'm asking these questions about the unisons because I like the sound of the tuning so much.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/05/10 06:56 AM

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
"How would that effect your tuning?"

For the typical middle aged consoles and the old aged uprights, which is about all that I tune, not a bit. I concentrate mostly on stability and general octave stretch. The hammers are rarely in any condition to worry about tuning tone into the unisons. I just mention these things because others are also interested, not that I have much of an opportunity to use them.

But really, I don't know what you are babbling about, and please don't try to explain.


Please dont quit, Jeff, the fact that you have to tune less than first grade instruments does not mean you cant benefit of that raised harmony. In fact I just believe the opposite, it may well give you some fun, as even uninteresting pianos get something with Chas.

The method with the felt mute and "preparatory tuning is a very good one, if you ever use a EDT you can see very easily how the strings settle and the pitch change when you are going thru the scale (unisons tuned or not).

The way you are yet tuning makes me think that you ar yet using some "auto settling" property of the tuning (be it with th 5th s or with the 12the, the instrument seem to find its correct place when it is pushed in the good direction, then tuning Chas means only using RBI to have more precision or evenness, the raised resonance put you more easily than expected in the correct pitch region.

The emphasis of 2nd partial is a help for resonance, it is just a way to listen that allow you to thicken the tone without using beats in unison (just a coupling question, to me).

I suggest you experiment on the relations of the 2nd inversion of the minor chord with the double octave of the second note. You may find some interesting thing....

Besty regards
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/07/10 08:42 AM

To Jeff

I recorded ..

http://www.box.net/shared/ptfcnaommd

There you have an idea on how the beat rates are progressing, tuned on one string, and how the top note can be tuned only in the resonance of the octave, and fall in place well.

It is quiet to listen, even on a small vertical (but one need to have a thin enough strip mute there, to mute up to C6)

The piano is a120 cm vertical, good tone, Ciresa soundboard. I will record the job on a bad piano someday...
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/09/10 10:56 AM

I've been making notes about tuning to CHas (an actual tuning, as opposed to the model), trying to create a list of general requirements. This list is just meant to recapitulate what I've gathered. Corrections and additions would be appreciated:

1. The bearing is set over two octaves. (NO: See below.)
2. The intervals of the two octaves are divided up equally, (NO: See below.)as much as possible, although of course iH on some pianos may require repitching some notes slightly.
3. The lowest possible partials are listened to when checking beat rates:
octaves at 2:1 , doubles at 4:1, 12ths at 3:1 ; 5ths at 3:2 not using the checks that compare 2 fast beating intervals, as the M6 M17th to check the 12th size.
4. Double octaves and 12ths beat equally.
5. Double octaves are very slightly wide.
6. 12ths are very slightly narrow from A4 to the top. (NO: See below.)
7. Octaves beat very slightly wider as they move to each end of the keyboard. (NO: See below.)
8. But the 12th's remain slightly narrow from A4 to the top. Moving towards the bass, they widen. (NO: See below.)
9. M5's become just or nearly just in the upper regions.
10. 4ths become more narrow as they approach the top. (Not exactly: See below. They become less wide.)
11. Unisons are often very slightly wide to reinforce the 2nd partial.
12. Resonance is to be preferred to power: Although the bearing\temperament octave (three octaves in CHas) is slightly wide of theoretical ET, the upper keyboard is often "milder," than many contemporary ET's, since lower partials are listened to for beats. (Partly right. See below.)
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/09/10 12:31 PM


Hi Jake, thanks for this list, a valid contribute. Since I do not know how to control the editing, I'll write some CORRECTIONS/ADDITIONS with capital letters.

..."I've been making notes about tuning to CHas (an actual tuning, as opposed to the model), trying to create a list of general requirements. This list is just meant to recapitulate what I've gathered. Corrections and additions would be appreciated:

1. The bearing is set over THREE OR MORE octaves (FROM C6 DOWN TO STRINGS CROSSING, ON CENTRE STRINGS).
2. The intervals OF THESE octaves are divided up equally, as much as possible, although of course iH on some pianos may require repitching some notes slightly.
3. The lowest possible partials are listened to when checking beat rates:
octaves at 2:1 , doubles at 4:1, 12ths at 3:1 ; 5ths at 3:2 not using the checks that compare 2 fast beating intervals, as the M6 M17th to check the 12th size.
4. Double octaves and 12ths beat equally.
5. Double octaves are very slightly wide, CONSTANT ALL ALONG THE KEYBOARD.
6. 12ths are very slightly narrow, CONSTANT ALL ALONG THE KEYBOARD .
7. Octaves beat very slightly (PROGRESSIVE) wider as they move to each end of the keyboard.
8. But the 12th's remain slightly narrow, AND CONSTANT ALL ALONG THE KEYBOARD
9. M5's become PROGRESSIVELY just or nearly just in the upper regions.
10. 4ths become LESS WIDE as they approach C3.
11. Unisons are PREFERABLY very slightly wide to reinforce the 2nd partial.
12.(SUSTAIN) Resonance is to be preferred to (ATTACK) power: Although the bearing\temperament octave (THREE+ octaves in CHas) is slightly wide of theoretical ET, the upper keyboard is often "milder," than many contemporary ET's, since lower partials are listened to for beats."

- . - . - . -

I do not know if Point 12 is correct. I could say … “Although the bearing\temperament octave (THREE+ octaves in CHas) is slightly wide of theoretical (historical?) ET, the upper keyboard is often "milder," than many (?) (there seem to be two, Cordier's and Stopper's) THEORETICAL contemporary ET's, since the Chas octave is less stretched.”

Unfortunally, I do not know which partials would Cordier or Stopper listen to, I could not get their aural tuning sequence either.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/09/10 12:59 PM

Hi Alfredo,
I attempted implementing your above techniques as closely as possible during my tunings on Saturday on both upright and grand pianos.

The most difficult part I found was controlling the openness of the unisons against the openness of stretch I chose for the octaves up the register.

The bearing section I expanded was C3-C4, using A-440 as the mark. Normally, I use F3-A4.

After the tunings, I played several different pieces of music and on each different piano, the salesman in charge of the showroom commented very positively, that he liked it. Because I had been using a different method, CHAS felt different, sounded different. When I was at the piano playing, it sounded in-tune, but loose to me. When I was at the other end of the showroom and the salesman was playing - the tuning sounded very lively, pure and most of all, musical and resonant - a whole piano sound, not just intervals strung together (which as a novice tuner I've been consumed with) wink

My preference is for a slightly tighter sound, but this method allows me to experiment with the piano's "whole sound", rather than simply listening to intervals. I still check outside 6ths against inside 3ds, then a quick check of 10ths and 17ths up the register as it pertains evenness of the stretch. The precise evenness of beat progression up the register is sometimes altered by the piano itself, I suppose inHarmonicity, false beats, and lack of experience on my part, are the culprits.

Did you receive my tuning sample with checks? Thanks for the descriptions of your methods.

Glen

Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/09/10 01:40 PM

Many thanks, Alfredo.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/10/10 06:31 AM


Hi Glen,

I'm glad for your positive feedback. And your approach, trying different techniques, can only open to the best for all of us.

Though my tuning routine is related to strings loadings onto the bridge, I do not think it is a must. What is important is to know what to go for and why.

For instance, the little variations in loadings could be evaluated in other ways, depending on your idea of the sound-board's elasticity or your strings and structure settlings technique. My evaluation is not proposed as the best.

..."The most difficult part I found was controlling the openness of the unisons against the openness of stretch I chose for the octaves up the register."...

Unisons raise the pitch, but the increase in strings tension does load more onto the bridge, so eventually experience will help.

..."The bearing section I expanded was C3-C4, using A-440 as the mark. Normally, I use F3-A4."...

Did you mean C3-A4?

..."After the tunings, I played several different pieces of music and on each different piano, the salesman in charge of the showroom commented very positively, that he liked it. Because I had been using a different method, CHAS felt different, sounded different."...

Still today I'm surprised by the effects of this beating form, both for the "in tune" feeling and the resonance power. A small piano too gains so much brightness and volume, like if it was double in lenth.

.."My preference is for a slightly tighter sound, but this method allows me to experiment with the piano's "whole sound", rather than simply listening to intervals."...

Yes, the whole sound is relevant. Today I do not make a distinction between the first temperament-octave and the whole keyboard.

..."The precise evenness of beat progression up the register is sometimes altered by the piano itself, I suppose inHarmonicity, false beats, and lack of experience on my part, are the culprits."...

If you are tuning with beats, do not submit to iH. You'll be able to lay down your favorite tuning form by imposing beats coherence for all intervals.

..."Did you receive my tuning sample with checks? Thanks for the descriptions of your methods."...

I did receive your samples and listened to them. Progressions can be improved, but they are already good standard. One point: when you check the intervals progression go slowly and regularly, do not change the choromatic sequence's rhythm, you risk to confuse the increasing (or decreasing) beat rate you want, with your increasing (or decreasing) playing rhythm.

Our tendency (O) is to hear what we would like to hear, being sort of "generous" with ourselves. If you can, be severe and always ready and willing to perfect your Real beat hearing. Choromatic 12ths are easy to evaluate, and vivid and reliable too.

Let us know. a.c.
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/10/10 09:17 AM

Kamin:

When you can, could you tell what mic or mics you're using for your various recordings of CHas, and where you are putting the mic in relation to the piano?
Posted by: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/10/10 11:51 AM

Greetings, Alfredo ~~

Loading the strings on the bridge is a fine concept, and something to take into account as it pertains to string/pin setting for tuning stability and resonance. Mushy pinblocks on some of the pianos means one has to work harder to get any feedback.

Yes, experience over the next few hundred or so tunings will be a big help in terms of accuracy, consistency, and efficiency.

I did mean C3-A4. I will look into further expanding the bearing to C3-C5. My preference is to begin stretching octaves up the register as much as possible. The trick is to make the stretch consistent. This will take a great deal more experience.

I agree - the tempered (bearing) section is just that and it has to blend in with the rest of the stretch.

Good catch on the check sample...I did have a tendency to speed up the interval check speed as the beat rates increased...I also have a tendency when I play to speed up in fortissimo and slow down in pianissimo! wink

Chromatic 12ths are a good check to ensure those intervals are not too narrow or wide. It is an easy check.

No question, and I am of the philosophy that the best sounding temperament in the world is useless without perfect unisons.

I'll let you know how it goes...this weekend I have 5 scheduled tunings.

Thank you, again, again!

Glen
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/17/10 11:31 AM

Ran across this article (may be well-known) which has a section on the relative pitches of unisons. Interesting reflections on how unison offsets affect M3's, etc. See the section "The Effect of Multiple Stringing on the Sound of the Piano," about 1/4 into the essay. However, unisons in general are discussed, without regard to the octaves in which they are pitched:

http://www.zainea.com/piano%20sound.htm

(This isn't really related to the pretuning sequence for CHas, of course, but instead to the final tuning.)
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/23/10 06:46 AM


The issue reported by GP and quoted below is a recurrent phenomenon. It may suggest to hold the strings loadings and adjustements, the pins charge and the piano settlings and Time in due consideration. These factors are as relevant as the tuning form itself (O).

..."Here is what I have noticed these last 5 tunings...since I received the piano in 2007......when I go back to tune the whole piano, the upper 2 treble sections are the worst. The very top treble is not nearly as bad as the section below it. In fact, that top section is quite stable in unisons and pitch.

The section that is a problem, between D#5-G6, that section constantly goes flat first before any other section, and the unisons drift out first there before any other section....that's why we pounded down the pins, thinking that would help. For example, after tuning from bass to treble, that problematic area, after 1 or 2 pieces that really pound the piano, that section is already somewhat flat! Then slowly, the more the piano is played, the whole piano starts to drift flat, it never seems to go sharp."...

Regards, a.c.

.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/30/10 09:03 AM


..."The PTG convention in 2011 will be held in Kansas City, his (Kent Swafford's) home and the home of PTG. It may be a good idea to plan for that event, to present your idea, mine and that of Alfredo Capurso at that time, perhaps at some kind of "side show" where three very similar pianos can be tuned in each style. Let the audience and musicians give their comments and approval or disapproval to each without them knowing which piano is tuned in which way."...

I thank you, Bill, for your proposal, I'll be glad to enjoy our real tunings.

As you know, I'm also trying to share a new Temperamental Theory and a modern ET model deriving from a new approach to beats and resonance.

In another forum, one colleague was asking for a short description to help to focus on the important principles, to understand the system more quickly. I hope this can help:

About Chas pre-tuning method and sequence:

- the use of all intervals for an ET where all intervals are progressive
- the use of low partials beats for reducing iH's influence
- not counting but comparing beats (progressive and even beating ones)
- guessing only the first octave for eventually perfect it
- drawing a more accentuated stretch curve for compensating the piano's adjustments (let the piano get the form)
- inverting the beat rate progression of 5ths for eventually gaining even beating 12ths (narrow) and 15ths (wide) all along the keyboard.

About Chas system's theory:

- the static zero-beating approach is replaced with "stable dynamism"
- zero-beating "pure" intervals do not equal "more consonant"
- beats return the strings partials qualities, so giving character and tension (read colour) to each single interval
- no interval needs to be beat-less
- all intervals (all partials) can compromise for a geometric Optimum, for a resonant and stable beating whole
- flows of beats and outcoming partials determine infinite sound atmospheres.

This is also what I would really like to talk about, I would like to explain Chas whole ratio, why and how any scale practical arrangement (including your EBVT, Patrick's EBVT + pure 12ths, and so on) can eventually depart from this balanced geometrical entity in the most natural (and human) way.

I'll be very happy if PTG will promote wider understanding of this theory and I'll welcome any form of collaboration or support that you may personally be able to offer.

Regards, a.c. 

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv
.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/08/10 05:03 AM


Hello.

From Ernest Unrau (R.P.T - C.A.P.T - CANADA) we receive the Flow Chart describing Chas Pre-Tuning sequence:

http://api.ning.com/files/DWLXHPDu0*UDEYxdq5G3IqO5z6EC08cwgCNjc1bPYFkj*S9JQvW2c9Rz*UNZM02v0r-GsgtwUjBp2ECV88YyrKP5sfkbz-NO/CHAS_PrepSeqFlowChart.pdf

I thank you very much, Ernest, as I'm sure yours is one more relevant, best motivating contribution.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/12/10 04:38 PM


I'll like to reply to what Bill Bremmer writes:

..."The hammer technique I use avoids the bending and twisting of the tuning pin and causes the entire string segment to move simultaneously. Frankly, the notion that one must "feel" the pin moving only means that you are twisting it and therefore have to go through more effort to undo that.

I will be interested to read what you say has been written recently by Jim Coleman, however. When I teach my students, I tell them that the string is elastic, like a rubber band (indeed the French word for that is «un élastique»). The tuning pin is like a spring. If one "turns" the pin slowly, one does feel it move, yes but at the same time, one is inevitably putting a twist or torque into it. The change in tension upon the speaking length happens and we can hear that or the ETD reads it but there is some residual parts of the string which may not have responded, there also may be more tension between the tuning pin and the first bearing point. If that that tension gets to high in an attempt to raise the pitch of the string, it will break.

So, I firmly believe in what I learned so many years ago, that an impact movement of the tuning hammer is the most efficient and mechanically correct movement. If it were really necessary to "feel" the pin moving as many technicians claim (I know that many, if not most have been taught that), it would mean that the impact style tuning hammer is a worthless tool. Clearly, this is not true for some of the finest technicians I know use one. Dean Reyburn is one of them. He designed and markets such a tool. One does not "feel" the pin move as is described and claimed to be essential. Therefore, I don't believe it is essential. I actually believe it is counter productive, even potentially damaging."

- . - . - . -

I cannot write tonight but if you colleagues want to elaborate on this..."impact movement"? or "feel the pin", and charge it for counter-balancing the string's tension?

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/12/10 05:32 PM

Hello Alfredo,

What you have shown to me and that looks like those old basic "first lesson in tuning : untwist the pin, raise the pitch, then twist it back a little" took sense, in the way it make the differnce between a basically settled system, and a system wich is at the same time settled hard as stone, and charged with the utmost tension.

To get there with more fast tuning hammer technique it is necessary to come back again and again to wedge the appropriate tension in the system until it is charged to the top.

The other way to settle as strong is to use much more heavy blows, but then the precision of the tuning lowers, and for many reasons I avoid playing too hard.

As I stated the tone is the main reason why I appreciate that "basic way" , but having a precise control on pitch while at the same time finding the utmost settling was an eye opener (or may I say an ear ?)

That said it serves me to know what I am doing wand what level of precision/stability I will access, while tuning with my more usual way (faster !).

In any case the good sensations thru the tuning hammer are what provide us control on the output, to the last 10ths of cst. I learned to wedge and to shim micro moves of the bottom of the pin, when using EDT's and working on pianos that where tuned once or twice a day. The need is differnet when doing a yearly tuning indeed, and I liked the idea to have mostly top evaluate how the soundboard and bridge is accepting the new tension.

Lot of confidence and good sensations !

Be well, I hope other colleagues will shime in, generlaly spêaking not many tuners like to speak of basic tuning technique, most often fancy tricks , while basics are left as if what was shown to us in our early age was of little value !

I'd say that simply we where not able to understand it all at that moment, that is all !

Best regards



Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/12/10 07:44 PM

The problem I think GP has with the 5th and 6th octaves is that it needs a pitch raise first in that section of the piano and like many technicians, he wants to avoid the necessary preliminary pass. This is very common. The task of tuning is so difficult that doing it once is arduous enough but to have to do it twice is beyond contemplation.

The piano has very tight tuning pins and a Wapin bridge (3 pins in it instead of two). If that whole section is even just two cents flat and each string is only raise to target pitch, by the time the section is finished, it would already be expected to be 0.5 cents flat. If, by the twisting motion of the tuning hammer, some clockwise torque has been placed in the tuning pin and there is residual unequalized tension across the bridge pins and duplex sections, that residual tension will resolve, the tuning pin will untwist and the whole section, especially with the hard playing by the player system, will end up very near where it started.

So, I recommended as a pitch raise technique, each string should be tuned even sharper than is usually recommended, such as 1 cent for each 2 cents the section is flat. The pitch raise function does not need to be done with the same amount of precision as fine tuning, just something approximate and therefore not as painstaking and stressful. When the pitch raise has been completed, give each key at least three very hard test blows. Then sample some strings from that section again. If most strings are now correct or within a very close range such as +/- 0.5 cents, it should accept a fine tuning. If they are still mostly all flat, unfortunately a pitch raise correction must again be performed. One must also be careful not to over correct. If everything is too sharp, it will tend to climb again when lowered.

I am not expecting that GP could learn to use the impact type hammer technique that I use. He is a novice tuner. He knows only how to "turn" the tuning pin until the pattern on the ETD stands still. This is OK but it must be understood that if everything is flat, just raising each string until the ETD says it is right will inevitably result in the whole thing going flat again in short order.

The 5th and 6th octaves are more sensitive to that than the rest of the piano. There is moderate tension there and that part of the scale is used more than the very highest and lowest parts of the piano. The wound strings are far less apt to go flat in the same way. There is a combination of just enough length of string, moderate tension and heavy use to cause them to go flat easily. The high treble has shorter and higher tensioned strings. The low tenor and midrange has longer strings and lower tension.

I often do three passes in the midrange and treble for the highest quality concert tuning I do (such as last Friday on the Steinway). Even though the piano was only slightly flat (generally about 3 cents), if all I did was to raise each string to the target pitch one time, the tuning would end up quite flawed. This would be regardless of how I did it, whether to use a strip mute or a single wedge and regardless of how well I settled each string as I went. I would only be deceiving myself if I thought otherwise.

I have often heard technicians claim that "strip mutes don't work" but if each unison is tuned as a whole while proceeding, "they all stay". This is only wishful thinking. The unisons may be solid but if one goes back to the ETD program to see if each unison is locked on to the target pitch to within a tolerance of 0.1 cents, the truth will be revealed. Aurally, it won't test out as desired either.

To try to change the pitch of the piano and fine tune it simultaneously is only "fighting" with the piano. The piano will always win the fight and the technician will lose. I can tune a piano twice in 45 minutes and have better, more stable results than most people will have who "fight" with the piano for an hour and a half. That is because I know how the piano will behave and I make a preliminary correction that anticipates how it will behave.

Isaac, what you did not see in that video and was perhaps some of the reason for your criticism is that the video itself was really only about the double octave and octave-5th comparison. I first showed that I tuned single octaves just slightly wide. In any typical circumstance, none of the strings would be expected to be close enough to accept a fine tuning in just one pass using a muting strip. What I would normally have done is to tune slightly wide octaves all the way to the top, quickly without too much precision, the flatter the string is, in fact, the sharper I would tune it. I would then pull in all of the unisons, again, without a great amount of precision. I would then give the entire section a series of test blows.

The expected result would be that now, each string would be within a range that would accept a fine tuning, most already in tune, a few slightly sharp, a few slightly flat but no general trend either way. If it is the highest level of performance tuning, I automatically consider that the second pass will still not be quite enough for rock solid stability. I make the corrections, tune the unisons again and start the whole process again. I expect that upon the third pass, very little has to be done and therefore it usually takes very little time. I am able to catch the few strings here or there which resisted being settled absolutely and spend the time "fighting" with them at that point, not in the beginning.

That is what puts the glowing smile on the face of the artist as he performs. I have seen it often. I know what works for me and how to get a rock solid, broadcast quality sound that will hold up through a performance with little stress and sometimes in amazingly little time. The last time that Kawai RX-3 was on stage for that young artist, the set up and sound check people were taking much longer than they had anticipated. When I was finally called to the stage, I had a two pass tuning of the piano which was not bad and basically on pitch done in exactly 35 minutes. The crew was still milling around taking care of details. I left them plenty of time to do their final sound check. If I had dwelt on each tuning pin, twisting, turning, pounding, correcting and re-correcting one unison at a time with a single wedge, I would have taken at least twice as long and been very stressed out. As it was, I finished my job, wished them a good show and took the nearly hour drive back home.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/13/10 07:46 AM


Bill, you kindly write:

..."When I teach my students, I tell them that the string is elastic, like a rubber band (indeed the French word for that is «un élastique»). The tuning pin is like a spring."...

Talking about "elasticity", spring and rubber, I thought this may help some further evaluations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(solid_mechanics)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteresis

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/14/10 03:38 AM


Hello,

I tend to believe that the whole piano's structure has a tendency to react slowly to an outside force (Hysteresis, linked above).

At about 2/3 of the page linked below, I've found a nice simulation that in my opinion can describe what happens when we turn the pin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bending

Considering the string's tension, I think it may be advisable to feel and "charge the pin", when possible, with vertical bending (towards the string) and torsional bending (anticlock). By doing so we can counterbalance the pulling of the string and heavy playing stresses. In fact, these pin Vs string opposing forces can determine a more stable tuning.

Moreover, string and pin will result notted, (or glued, fused?) and so more energy can be transferred to the pin-block.

So, impacting or charging? One question: what will eventually make the pin's hole oval?

a.c.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/14/10 05:09 AM

impact have the supposed advantage of moving the whole pin with minimal torsion.

Using EDT s, one have always a tendency not to raise above pitch as much as in aural tuning, hence the development of special methods and techniques to just add a very little o so the display is happy.

Stability wise, while one can get a good stability with those methods, they are not "rock stable" because the grip of the pin is not so low in the blow. If it was only for stability, I would not use that slow method, that allow the piano and wire to take its "definitive place", but the gain in tone is really important (be it a vertical with bushings or a Steinway grand).

So I present myself as the slowest tuner in Paris, and thats it !


Despite the huge amount of pressure I use sometime on the lever, I am frankly not under the impression that I stress the block a lot with pressure (with wedging moves certainly it can make more trouble if they are not localized) What will make the block unusable is ovalisation on the bottom part; and I certainly did not notice that on pianos I tune regularly.

I guess that aiming to tune with a tuning pin which is "charged " to the max is a very good thing, I doubt that the charging unload, you may find it there on the next tuning. The idea that the pin is twisted some amount in the block is on page four of the book "many strokes" presented as a basis for the pin setting (which by evidence it is.

Piano a wire settling time is unfortunately not compressible, to me, if anyone have an idea on how to shorten that time I will accept it happily !

As I said my real internal feeling with the way I tune usually, is that "everything is evened so even if the wire move it will stay just enough, the unisons having a good acoustical stability will help the note to stay tuned " (and I think like that while having stetted the pin correctly, simply I was unsure of the real bottom position of the pin I only know I have some torsion, no idea on how deep it goes.

Trying the tone and the sensations obtained with the slow torsion and moving of the pin as showed in the videos I made, will convince you of the difference :
the tone is clearer
the tuning pin get stiffer,no more high motion of the tone with up or low pressure on the handle, only a very light move in the tone.

Some tuning pins slips on reverse (moving up) eventually , if the pitch have been raised frankly too much.

If when "charging" the pin you feel it split even a little, that mean that the bottom is not yet in its definitive place. If you set the pin in that position the tone is not as good, but , more important there is a "trap" in that tuning pin, which is twisted in the top part and unlocked in the bottom, you can feel it clearly when you untwist that pin and lower the note to do the whole process again :
at first the pin set again an again and seem to lock, then it unlock abruptly and then the note is way lower than you have believed, showing how much that bottom move of the pin is important for tone and pitch.

IF the block is not very strong, i noticed that doing the process 2 or3 times (SLOWLY) finally the bottom of the pin in the end find a better grip, it get better and better, may be moving the pin one direction then the other disturb the wood fiber and help to find better grip.

But the grip and knot that we can install in the upper part of the pin may be related to the bottom position if you want a definitive setting.

Of course the concepts that You state, Alfredo, are completely valid, the piano react and need time to find its new stability. THe pin react (probably) the wire, of course, the soundboard, the plate etc.. Being aware of that is yet something.

When we play the note so often waiting for the settling to take place, it is strange but we can hear the wire taking its place.

I guess I will do a video showing how I tune extra fast and how I tune with extra strong settling.

BTW I managed to tune with a more closed tone than yours, giving all the energy to the attack and leaving the piano find its tone by itself for the rest, and I like it, it provide more tactile sensations to the pianist hence a larger dynamic palette. On a piano with not so rich tone due to old strings (I've done it yesterday with some at last 50 years old wire) that gives very pleasing results.

The open but strong tone of the attack is also to me the sign of some stability. It does not mean the unisons are not smiling but a hair less than in your tone. I recorded a few notes (vertical Pleyel, 1930)

Bets regards to all !

Isaac











Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/29/10 04:40 AM


Hello Isaac,

You write:..."impact have the supposed advantage of moving the whole pin with minimal torsion."...

I think you are right, since the pin would have no time for torquing. But then, in this case, I'd have to charge a "cold" pin, without knowing what its bottom position is.

..."Using EDT s, one have always a tendency not to raise above pitch as much as in aural tuning, hence the development of special methods and techniques to just add a very little so the display is happy."...

The tendency I've noticed also in aural tuning is to get by with a fairly correct pitch, no matter how the pin is positioned. In my opinion, the correct pitch should result from the best pin position, i.e. from a correctly charged pin.

..."Stability wise, while one can get a good stability with those methods, they are not "rock stable" because the grip of the pin is not so low in the blow."...

I doubt about good stability with those methods, the pin is bound to bend and twist towards the string's relaxation.

..."If it was only for stability, I would not use that slow method, that allow the piano and wire to take its "definitive place", but the gain in tone is really important (be it a vertical with bushings or a Steinway grand)."...

Yes, stability may not be good for business, though I've found it foundamental for working on the tuning form.

..."So I present myself as the slowest tuner in Paris, and thats it!"...

To me, slow is better. Then we can master the most correct movement and execute it fast. All schools teach this, nothing new.

..."Piano and wire settling time is unfortunately not compressible, to me, if anyone have an idea on how to shorten that time I will accept it happily!"...

You are right (too often I can only agree with you). Playing the piano, single notes and chords, while we are tuning is the only way I know.

..."Trying the tone and the sensations obtained with the slow torsion and moving of the pin as showed in the videos I made, will convince you of the difference: the tone is clearer,
the tuning pin get stiffer, no more high motion of the tone with up or low pressure on the handle, only a very light move in the tone."...

I missed the video, can I find it somewhere?

..."Some tuning pins slips on reverse (moving up) eventually , if the pitch have been raised frankly too much.

If when "charging" the pin you feel it split even a little, that mean that the bottom is not yet in its definitive place. If you set the pin in that position the tone is not as good, but , more important there is a "trap" in that tuning pin, which is twisted in the top part and unlocked in the bottom, you can feel it clearly when you untwist that pin and lower the note to do the whole process again : at first the pin set again an again and seem to lock, then it unlock abruptly and then the note is way lower than you have believed, showing how much that bottom move of the pin is important for tone and pitch."...

What you are sharing is as precious as true.(O)

..."But the grip and knot that we can install in the upper part of the pin may be related to the bottom position if you want a definitive setting.

Of course the concepts that You state, Alfredo, are completely valid, the piano react and need time to find its new stability. THe pin react (probably) the wire, of course, the soundboard, the plate etc.. Being aware of that is yet something.

When we play the note so often waiting for the settling to take place, it is strange but we can hear the wire taking its place."...

I agree.

..."BTW I managed to tune with a more closed tone than yours, giving all the energy to the attack and leaving the piano find its tone by itself for the rest, and I like it, it provide more tactile sensations to the pianist hence a larger dynamic palette. On a piano with not so rich tone due to old strings (I've done it yesterday with some at last 50 years old wire) that gives very pleasing results."...

I'm looking forward to hearing the tone you like the best, no doubt about superb results...Is it warmer now in Paris?

Thank you very much, Isaac, and regards, a.c.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/25/10 02:47 AM


Isaac Oleg (France) has offered the French translation (+ comments) of Chas sequence flow chart, first elaborated by Ernest Unrau (Canada).

It is available here:

http://www.chas.it/Docs/traduction%20CHAS%20preparatoire.pdf

Regards, a.c.

CHAS Tuning MP3 - Amatorial recording on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/22/10 03:14 AM


To All,

....((( MERRY XMAS )))....


Regards, a.c.


HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1559204/18.html
.
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/22/10 07:05 PM

Have a good holiday, Alfredo. Still waiting to hear that you're going to Toulous or coming to the U.S.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/01/11 05:11 PM


Hello.

Art aside, I like John's post about "setting both the wrestpin and soundboard".

Regards, a.c.

Re: Techniques for stability [Re: PianistOne111]
Johnkie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 21
Loc: England
The art of obtaining tuning stability is dependent on several things. I won’t go into the pros and cons of ETD vs aural tuning, because there seems to be a huge debate on this subject that really makes no difference to the aspect of stability. However, I must add that I write this not ever having any experience of ETDs, so can’t explain stability using any of the terms associated with them.
Firstly, there are complexities of the skills required to “Set the pin”. The general rule is to always turn the pin, not bend it! You should aim to pull the string up a little past where you want it to be, making sure that you have turned the whole length of the pin, not merely the top section that we can see. Having achieved that, we now have to bring the pitch down and slightly below where we want to be to ensure that any twist in the steel tuning pin is taken out. Assuming you have turned the whole pin firstly to take the string sharp, and now taken the string slightly below, the natural twist in the wrestpin should want to take it sharp again ... and the gentlest pressure on your tuning lever should be enough to encourage the string to pitch exactly where you need it to be. It’s at this last stage of pin setting that a firm striking of the note will help to ensure that any “tension lag” is equalised. I must admit that if I were to tune with an ETD, I would find it extremely difficult to judge, because it’s a mechanical “feel” of what’s happening to the wrestpin and looking at a ETD display simply can’t give any idea about what is physically happening to the tuning pin. In my humble opinion, the ETD confuses the issue, by making the tuner look at its display too much ... The first part of tuning i.e. taking the string above, and then slightly below by moving the entire length of the pin is the most important part of obtaining tuning stability, and only when this has been done does the tuner then have to pay close attention to the display to get the best possible result.
Secondly, it must be realised that every individual string altered has a knock on effect to the other strings ... So the more out of tune, or below pitch the instrument is, the greater the knock on effect is. It’s pointless worrying about a perfect tuning if you are making large tuning adjustments. Far better to get the overall tension on the soundboard by doing a rough tuning first without worrying that the tuning sounds awful , rather than concentrating on getting notes perfect, and then having them all wander out of tune again as the soundboard is subjected to increased down-force. This again is something that I can’t comment on with regard to ETDs – I believe that they have the ability to calculate “stretch” , and should be more than capable of indicating the amount required to achieve the finished result. However, it’s once again a question of “Setting” ... but this time it’s a question of “setting the soundboard”.
Tuning stability is affected by many things, temperature and humidity change cause the biggest fluctuations in pitch, but the initial stability comes down to the tuner’s skill in setting both the wrestpin and soundboard. These skills are paramount in becoming a top class tuner and sadly it is simply not possible to learn these skills either aurally or by using an ETD. Practise and experience are the only ways to ever obtain the “feel” and result of a good professional, and stable tuning.
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 45 years in the United Kingdom
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com
Posted by: Ed Foote

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/01/11 09:19 PM

>> Tuning stability is affected by many things, temperature and humidity change cause the biggest fluctuations in pitch, but the initial stability comes down to the tuner’s skill in setting both the wrestpin and soundboard. These skills are paramount in becoming a top class tuner and sadly it is simply not possible to learn these skills either aurally or by using an ETD. Practise and experience are the only ways to ever obtain the “feel” and result of a good professional, and stable tuning. <<

Greetings,
While I can agree with part of this, the question is "What kind of practice and experience?" I don't think an ETD has any place in the initial training of the the ear to temper intervals and tune unisons. By virtue of their design, they render a sensual world in intellectual terms.
However, in the realm of teaching stability, I think the ETD's have a very strong contribution to make. Is stability not learning what the hand must feel in regards to what the string is doing, or not doing?
The quality of data coming from any of the modern machines is extraordinary for those that have learned to use the tool at this level. The modern ETD will indicate a change of pitch before the ear can hear it. The sooner we know that the string is moving through the agraffe, the tighter our information becomes inre how the hand is doing. Stability can't be learned without either aural or machine input, can it?
I am proud to have been taught by Bill Garlick, and to have had 18 years in the recording studios, tuning aurally. However, arthritis in the hand pushed me into getting the first programable machine (SAT). I put my tunings in there and made the switch. Though I had been rabidly aural for years, I have to say that it made me a better tuner, and a lot of that was giving me cleaner information about the string movement. (The thing still doesn't do a unison as well as the ear, though.)
I submit that the combination of machine and ear will develop stability faster than either, alone.
.
Regards,
Ed Foote
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/02/11 05:39 PM

Hi David.

You write:..."While I can agree with part of this, the question is "What kind of practice and experience?" I don't think an ETD has any place in the initial training of the the ear to temper intervals and tune unisons."...

I cannot be that sure, perhaps a beginner likes that kind of feedback.

..."By virtue of their design, they render a sensual world in intellectual terms."...

Sight, though, is a sense too.

..."However, in the realm of teaching stability, I think the ETD's have a very strong contribution to make. Is stability not learning what the hand must feel in regards to what the string is doing, or not doing?"...

I'd say...not only. There is the hand, the string (three lengths), the bridge, the soundboard, the whole piano's structure and the pin.

..."The quality of data coming from any of the modern machines is extraordinary for those that have learned to use the tool at this level."...

Which level?

..."The modern ETD will indicate a change of pitch before the ear can hear it."...

Hmmmmm...I'm not that sure.

..."The sooner we know that the string is moving through the agraffe, the tighter our information becomes inre how the hand is doing."...

What I need to "hear" is the pin, in relation to the string.

..."Stability can't be learned without either aural or machine input, can it?"...

Well, if there is a problem is when aural and/or machine input are not enough.

..."I am proud to have been taught by Bill Garlick, and to have had 18 years in the recording studios, tuning aurally."...

Would you tell me more about Bill Garlick? Is he from England.

..."However, arthritis in the hand pushed me into getting the first programable machine (SAT)."...

How did that help your hand?

..."I put my tunings in there and made the switch. Though I had been rabidly aural for years, I have to say that it made me a better tuner, and a lot of that was giving me cleaner information about the string movement. (The thing still doesn't do a unison as well as the ear, though.)"...

I understand you mean cleaner "eye" info. Has it trained your ear too?

..."I submit that the combination of machine and ear will develop stability faster than either, alone."...

This is what I like of John's post:

..."The general rule is to always turn the pin, not bend it! You should aim to pull the string up a little past where you want it to be, making sure that you have turned the whole length of the pin, not merely the top section that we can see. Having achieved that, we now have to bring the pitch down and slightly below where we want to be to ensure that any twist in the steel tuning pin is taken out. Assuming you have turned the whole pin firstly to take the string sharp, and now taken the string slightly below, the natural twist in the wrestpin should want to take it sharp again ... and the gentlest pressure on your tuning lever should be enough to encourage the string to pitch exactly where you need it to be. It’s at this last stage of pin setting that a firm striking of the note will help to ensure that any “tension lag” is equalised. I must admit that if I were to tune with an ETD, I would find it extremely difficult to judge, because it’s a mechanical “feel” of what’s happening to the wrestpin and looking at a ETD display simply can’t give any idea about what is physically happening to the tuning pin. In my humble opinion, the ETD confuses the issue, by making the tuner look at its display too much ... The first part of tuning i.e. taking the string above, and then slightly below by moving the entire length of the pin is the most important part of obtaining tuning stability, and only when this has been done does the tuner then have to pay close attention to the display to get the best possible result.
Secondly, it must be realised that every individual string altered has a knock on effect to the other strings ... So the more out of tune, or below pitch the instrument is, the greater the knock on effect is. It’s pointless worrying about a perfect tuning if you are making large tuning adjustments. Far better to get the overall tension on the soundboard by doing a rough tuning first without worrying that the tuning sounds awful , rather than concentrating on getting notes perfect, and then having them all wander out of tune again as the soundboard is subjected to increased down-force. This again is something that I can’t comment on with regard to ETDs – I believe that they have the ability to calculate “stretch” , and should be more than capable of indicating the amount required to achieve the finished result. However, it’s once again a question of “Setting” ... but this time it’s a question of “setting the soundboard”.
Tuning stability is affected by many things, temperature and humidity change cause the biggest fluctuations in pitch, but the initial stability comes down to the tuner’s skill in setting both the wrestpin and soundboard."...

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Ed Foote

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/02/11 09:24 PM

I wrote:

>..."The quality of data coming from any of the modern machines is extraordinary for those that have learned to use the tool at this level."...
A.C. asks:
><Which level?

The level of seeing pin flex indicating 1/2 cent changes on either side of a stable spot, or calculating overshoots for pitch corrections in increments I would challenge any aural tuner to match. The machines provide information, they don't make one go deaf. More information, better control of the results.

>>."The modern ETD will indicate a change of pitch before the ear can hear it."...

A.C. <<Hmmmmm...I'm not that sure.

Well,I am positive, having put my SAT up against a lot of ears over the years. Maybe acquaint yourself with one and see if you have a surprise in store. I don't think many of us can sense a .2 cent change in the fourth partial of a note, but that fine control is where a machine does shine.

I said,
>"The sooner we know that the string is moving through the agraffe, the tighter our information becomes inre how the hand is doing."...

>>What I need to "hear" is the pin, in relation to the string.

Well, this is where we differ. I can't hear the pin. I can feel the pin while hearing the string, but my point is that you can't learn to leave a stable string without hearing it.

>>Would you tell me more about Bill Garlick? Is he from England.

He is. He was leading the North Bennett Street School in 1975, when I went there. He later was hired by Steinway and Sons to develop their training program for their techs. Bill is highly regarded in the field and I am grateful to have been a student.

..."However, arthritis in the hand pushed me into getting the first programable machine (SAT)."...

>>How did that help your hand?

After getting my aural tunings stored in the machine, I can use a small, rubber-tipped, wooden handle to play the keys. It is easier on the knuckles and finger joints than the interval playing and testing I had been doing for so many years aurally.

>Though I had been rabidly aural for years, I have to say that it made me a better tuner, and a lot of that was giving me cleaner information about the string movement. (The thing still doesn't do a unison as well as the ear, though.)"...

>>I understand you mean cleaner "eye" info. Has it trained your ear too?

Most definitely, with more information coming in, tunings are more targeted to the pitch I want them. I spend less energy on rote tasks and can spend more time polishing unisons, which is where 90% of the listeners' impression comes from.
Not to mention the ease of accessing a wide variety of temperaments.
Regards,
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/06/11 12:24 PM


Hello Ed, nice to hear from you. Please excuse me, I don't know why I wrote David.

You write:..."The level of seeing pin flex indicating 1/2 cent changes on either side of a stable spot, or calculating overshoots for pitch corrections in increments I would challenge any aural tuner to match. The machines provide information, they don't make one go deaf. More information, better control of the results."...

In my view, any tool can be useful if used properly. As John does, I relate stability to many factors, one of them being setting the pin, what I refer to as "pin charging". A second factor is "setting the soundboard", and I like to point out John's report (above) in that not often we can read about this. Actually that explaines why I do not "lay down" my tuning there and then, but try to anticipate the smallest soundboard sagging.

..."Well, this is where we differ. I can't hear the pin. I can feel the pin while hearing the string, but my point is that you can't learn to leave a stable string without hearing it."...

I agree, I said "hear" metaphorically. In detail, when I turn the pin, my attention goes to the pin's behavior inside the pin-block, there I evaluate the over-pulling that is needed for then charging the pin. So I agree with John when he talks about mechanical “feel”.

..."He (Bill Garlick) was leading the North Bennett Street School in 1975, when I went there. He later was hired by Steinway and Sons to develop their training program for their techs. Bill is highly regarded in the field and I am grateful to have been a student."...

It would be nice if Bill could partecipate in our discussions. I'm glad that by using an ETD you could become a better tuner, having also treasured many years of aural tuning.

Best regards, a.c.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/16/11 05:11 PM


Hi Erich,

Please find Chas sequence here:

alfredo capurso
#1335665 - December 28, 2009 09:14 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kamin]

Then, let me know if and how I can help. I'm glad you asked.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/18/11 06:27 AM


Hi.

#1790690 - November 17, 2011 06:45 PM Re: Does it make sense to ask for a UT? [Re: PianoStudent88]

Chris Leslie:

..."Jake is asking, I think, for a practical explanation of your tuning sequence. Alfredo, I do not wish to be offensive, but you are very difficult to understand. You have presented a very theoretical paper that nobody understands, and you do not understand that others do not understand. The reason is partly because you have not presented any practical explanation of how to achieve your tuning so that less intellectual people (like me) can practice your method.

In contrast, Bill very clearly explains what he does and how to go about it so that tuners can go to a piano and tune a EBVT and mindless octaves. However, tuners cannot even begin a CHAS tuning because they have no practical steps to follow. Nobody will appreciated your concepts unless you provide a simplified practical guide to CHAS tuning. Perhaps then your theories will begin to make sense."...

Thank you very much, Chris and Jake, for your comments. I appreciate your help, your feedback and any suggestion aimed at understanding and applying the CHAS model.

So far I've started three threads in PW:

Circular Harmonic System - Chas - were it is possible to discuss on and ask about any theoretical and practical issue;

Chas Preparatory Tuning - dedicated to practical tuning and all relative questions;

Historical ET and Modern ET's - were it is possible to discuss about the first ET model, ET's evolution and about other temperaments.

I've also taken part to two other threads:

C.A.P.T. Forum - "Chas Equation for Tuning" - kindly started by Isaac Oleg ( http://pianotu.ning.com/forum/topics/chas-equation-for-tuning )

PIANOTEQ Forum- "A new Italian temperament: CHas" - kindly started by Jake Johnson ( http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=1174 )

Some posters seem to understand, others seem to appreciate the possibility to deepen on the subject. How would you provide more "friendly" opportunities? Would you start a new FAQ's thread? Which form should "a simplified practical guide to CHAS tuning" have? Any other idea?

Thank you All in advance.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/18/11 04:53 PM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Which form should "a simplified practical guide to CHAS tuning" have?

You should post a precise tuning sequence. What you keep referring too is too vague to be of any use. I know you have refused to provide a precise tuning scheme in the past, from which I conclude chas tuning does not exist. I'm open to be proven wrong.

Kees
Posted by: Withindale

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/18/11 05:13 PM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
You should post a precise tuning sequence


Kees

At the risk of asking a daft question what more does Alfredo need to say than the following:


Step 1 – A4 – from 440.0 Hz to 442.0 Hz (concert or studio) - from 442.0 to 443.0 (for flat pianos)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 2 – (A4)-A3 - tiny little flat, just on the beating threshold
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 3 – (A3)-D4-(A4) - sharp, close to 1 beat/sec. – D4-(A4) faintly beating
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 4 – (A3)-E4 - flat
check overlaping 5ths and adjacent 4ths to set up Chas ET EB octave:
A3-E4 about 1,5 beat/3s - sensibly faster than D4-A4
E4-A4 about 2 beats/1s - sensibly faster than A3-D4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 5 – (E4)-B3 – flat - tiny little faster beat than A3-D4, sensibly slower beat than E4-A4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 6 – (B3)-F#4 - flat - little slower beat than A3-E4 since 5ths have already inverted
faster beat than D4-A4 evaluate M6 A3-F#4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and so on


sse: #1335665 - 12/28/09 05:14 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kamin]
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/18/11 05:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Withindale

At the risk of asking a daft question what more does Alfredo need to say

Your question was answered extensively by several people in the original chas thread, no point repeating it here.

Kees
Posted by: Withindale

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/18/11 08:25 PM

Kees

Enough said.

Thank you for the link to Colin Pykett's article in that thread. Did you notice that begins with this quotation?

New ideas have four stages of acceptance:
i. this is worthless nonsense;
ii. this is an interesting, but perverse, point of view;
iii. this is true, but quite unimportant;
iv. I always said so.”

J B S Haldane
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/19/11 07:20 AM

I had not seen the above referenced sequence before but a few things about it it immediately come to mind. It looks no different from the truncated sequence found in many tuning books that originated from the Braide-White book, Piano Tuning and Allied Arts. Many publications have taken that material and abbreviated or re-arranged it one way or another. It is still the same idea no matter how it is presented. Alfredo describes 4ths as "sharp" and 5ths as "flat" instead of "wide" or "narrow" respectively. This alone is a reason to dismiss the writing as poorly researched and written.

The descriptions of how intervals and their checks should sound are too vague and thus open to interpretation. Quite a wide variety of results would be expected from following these instructions. The worst result, I am afraid would not be ET at all but you guessed it, Reverse Well. Show me a novice tuner who tries to tune a piano with those instructions and I'll show you a piano tuned in Reverse Well.

This does not mean I believe Alfredo tunes in RW. I have heard his recordings. They sound quite good. A very well executed ET, indeed. From what I could gather by reading what he has written, Alfredo advocates ET with a certain amount of stretch designed to incorporate inharmonicity to an optimum degree. That is fine, nothing wrong with that at all. However, that is what tuners have been doing in the USA now for over 30 years with far more clearly written instructions on how to do it.

Furthermore, I have a problem with the title given to what is nothing more than Standard Equal Temperament with octaves (including the initial temperament octave) optimized for inharmonicity. "Circular Harmonic System" could be the description of any Well Temperament and Reverse Well for that matter. Any of them is "Circular" and any of them would be "Harmonic".

It reminds me of the labels that are put on agricultural produce in the USA and Europe. Produce which is grown with no manufactured chemicals or fertilizers is called "Organic" in the USA and "Biological" ("Bio" for short) in Europe. However, produce raised with manufactured chemicals and fertilizers are no less "organic" nor "biological" than those raised without them.

Finding a name that has not been commonly used before the general public and writing long papers with mathematics that the general public would not comprehend unfortunately does not amount to any kind of new discovery. ET is now and always has been a theoretical model to which many people are drawn by its one-sided logic. It makes sense to many people to simply divide the 12 tone scale equally. However, the results were not what performing musicians wanted to hear in centuries past.

Helmholtz and Braide-White strongly advocated it as a solution. Isacoff recently described it as the "final solution" in his book. That was a very poor choice of words if you ask me! Throughout the 20th Century and now into the 21st, music education has made ET become the one and only frame of reference. The mere idea of "unequal" temperament seems unnatural and unwanted; not even to be considered. Fortunately, when exposed to other possibilities, musicians often find something quite appealing to the re-introduction of Well Temperament to the modern piano.
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/19/11 03:07 PM

Quote:
Which form should "a simplified practical guide to CHAS tuning" have? Any other idea?

Alfredo, can you use the symbology described on Reblitz page 225 (second edition) for the "Potter F-A Temperament", and then use this symbology to describe the CHas tuning sequence? If you do this then I am sure that many tuners will finally get the "leg up" to practice your tuning and then really appreciate it's value.

Thanks - Chris
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/19/11 03:33 PM

I agree with what Bill wrote so clearly.

What I find disturbing is the refusal by Alfredo to provide a clear tuning sequence, despite being told by several of the most distinguished piano technicians in the USA and Europe, why the sequence he posted is too vague.

From this I conclude (no personal insult intended) that the whole Chas tuning is an illusion. There is no such thing. Alfredo just tunes ET like the best but that's all it is.

Added to this deception is the "mathematical" paper, which in my expert opinion as mathematician and tuning theory expert is what Wolfgang Pauli coined as "not even wrong". I call it crackpottery. You can find a forum on "not even wrong".

Reason I'm restating this and undoubtedly upsetting Alfredo again is that novice and aspiring tuners seem somehow drawn to this Chas stuff, and naively believe it must be better than the "conventional ET" that is usually taught (wow, so many equations!) and are thus led astray.

Hence I'd like clearly stated why Chas is not taken seriously by many (if not all) experts in the area.

Alfredo, you will get an apology from me if you can prove me wrong.

Kees
Posted by: Withindale

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/19/11 05:37 PM

Bill, Chris, Kees

I have no argument with what you say.

Tuning technicalities aside, I take Alfredo's sequence as a description of what he does; "tiny little flat", "faintly beating" mean something more than provided for in Randy Potter's notation. No doubt some could go through everything in these threads and come up with a sequence in that form, but Alfredo?

David Pinnegar and I have both suggested, in the other thread, that Alfredo turn his attention to unequal temperaments. I'd hope the insights and inspiration he can draw from his model and his experience will lead him to something new that everyone will want to hear.

By the way, we were in Sicily earlier in the month. One day we had lunch in an old town off the beaten track. The conversation in the bar could have come straight off the stage at La Scala, not least the basso profundo. So I'm all for Alfredo and what he can bring to the party.
Posted by: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/20/11 05:12 PM

Alfredo is welcome as anyone is. However, it seems to me that he is trying to convey some new discovery which he feels is the ultimate approach to tuning. I well recall in my 1986 session at the Steinway factory with Bill Garlick (who had previously been a North Bennett Street School instructor, was the consultant to Dr. Al Sanderson and perhaps the most highly respected authority on tuning there could be), (also mentioned in one of Alfredo's earlier discussions), that he said, "There is nothing that anyone can do today with regard to tuning that someone else has not already done".

A temperament can be equal whether it is within an audibly narrow octave, an audibly beatless octave, an octave with a slight audible beat or an octave wide enough so that the fifths become beatless. From each to the next is a very small degree and each increment from an audibly beatless octave to slightly narrow or slightly stretched produces a nuance of effect, yet all tonalities will still have a character, one analogous to the other.

By definition and purpose, Equal Temperament (ET) has no tonal variation. Yet, Alfredo, while maintaining that ET is the only proper way to tune a piano, still maintains that there is a difference in each key and key signature. If it is because some people can recognize any note played on a piano without a reference and some people can recognize which key some music is in without a reference, one might be inclined to believe that ET does have distinctions.

However, the same would be true if the piano is tuned in any Well Temperament (WT) or mis-tuned as often may be the case in Reverse Well or whether the piano is out of tune and needs tuning. There would be a limit to how far out of tune and off pitch the piano is, of course but anyone who has a good sense of pitch knows which note is being played and which key any particular chord may be in, regardless of any of the above variations.

In all of the discussions between Alfredo and Bernhard Stopper whose amount of stretch in the octave results in a beatless octave-fifth (although Herr Stopper thinks of it as the other way around; the beatless octave-fifth results in a certain amount of stretch in the temperament octave), they seemed to be either trying to state the same idea or some very minute difference between what Alfredo suggests is optimal and what Herr Stopper suggests is optimal.

Just how much different could a piano sound tuned by either Sr. Alfredo or Herr Stopper? Not much. Not much at all. Just how much different would a piano sound tuned by Alfredo by ear and one tuned by an optimized ETD program? Not much, if any at all.

So, the suggestion or implication that the Circular Harmonic System is the Holy Grail of tuning is far too overstated.

Let's say for example that I said I had found a fabulous new cure for Hyperthermia. To cure a hyperthermic condition you will need to consume a vial of 236.6 milliliters of cryogenically treated monohydrogendioxide, assume a reclining posistion, apply a force of 3,600 meters per second of mixture of Dioxygen 23.2%, Dinitrogen 75.5%, Monocarbondioxide, 0.5% with added trace amounts of Dihydrogen, Argon, Neon, Helium, Krypton and Xenon for a period of 300,000 milliseconds.

I could then show pages of mathematics to show how the process works and pages of chemical symbols and proportions which few people could read or understand.

Or, I could say, "If you get all hot and sweaty, drink a glass of ice water, sit down and turn on a fan for 5 minutes".

Similarly, Alfredo could simply say, "I believe the most appropriate way to tune the modern piano is in Standard Equal Temperament with optimally stretched octaves".
Posted by: pianolive

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/21/11 11:36 AM

Thank you Bill.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/21/11 01:28 PM


Hi.

..."Alfredo could simply say, "I believe the most appropriate way to tune the modern piano is in Standard Equal Temperament with optimally stretched octaves"."

Bill, although result of a limited interpretation, your idea is not bad at all. I could simply say:

I believe the most appropriate way to tune all instruments is in a New Standard Equal Temperament With Optimally Stretched Intervals".

But, isn't that a bit long?

Please, let's continue our discussion in the main Chas thread, so that this thread can be used according to the original purpose.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/21/11 02:24 PM


Hi,

A comment from Bill Garlick was posted in this thread not long ago: "There is nothing that anyone can do today with regard to tuning that someone else has not already done".

Eventually I've remembered where I had read something vaguely similar:

"Behind the mountains there live people, too. Be modest; as yet you have discovered and though nothing which others have not thought and discovered before you. And even if you have done so, regard it as a gift from above, which you have got to share with others." It's one of Schumann's "Rules….".

The aural Preparatory Tuning sequence can be found at Chas website:
http://www.chas.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=40&Itemid=38&lang=en

Thanks to Ernest Unrau RPT (Canada) for elaborating the original pdf and to Isaac Oleg (France) for translating and commenting it.

The whole site is being renewed: many details need to be managed and some material hasn't been translated yet. I hope to improve that during the forthcoming holidays.

To All, Merry Christmas.

a.c.
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/22/11 10:24 AM

Alfredo,

Thank you for posting the sequence on your site. I worry that the sequence, as written, can still cause uncertainty, largely because:

1. The term "flat" is used to describe a narrow interval. Late in the sequence, this terminology is explained, but in the early steps, it is not. Thus the 2nd step is "(A4)-A3 - tiny little flat, just on the beating threshold." Reading this, I at first thought that you meant to make the lower note flat from a perfect unison, which would create a wide octave. Since "flat" means a narrow octave, the intent is instead to raise the pitch of the lower note, creating a narrow octave. Most confusing to speak of a rise in pitch as flat.

2. The tuning partials are not defined. Are all of the steps referring to the pitch of the fundamentals?.

3. Many people will want more specific information about the exact pitch shifts in cents. To speak of tiny shifts in pitch is natural, but the word "tiny" can mean a wide range of pitches, from less than a cent to several cents.

Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/23/11 05:31 AM


Hi Jake, thanks for your feedback.

On the first point, right at the begenning I wrote:

Sharp or flat is referred to the note (centre string) I’m
meant to tune. The already-tuned note is in brackets “()”:...".

Then I wrote:..."Step 2 − (A4)-A3 - tiny little flat, just on the beating
threshold"

Perhaps for the novice tuner I should add one notion: from an apparently beatless point, we can make a "wide" interval either by sharpening the top note or by flattening the bottom note; and we can make a "narrow" interval either by flattening the top note or by sharpening the bottom note.

Do you think this would help? Would this suggest that the Step-2 (A4)-A3 interval is clearly going to be wide?
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/01/12 05:35 PM


Hi Jake,

you wrote:

..."2. The tuning partials are not defined. Are all of the steps referring to the pitch of the fundamentals?."...

All the steps are referred to low partial matchings, like 2:1, 3:2 and so on, but actually when I tune I listen to beats and compare them, I don't think about partials.

To All, Happy *20.New Year.12*

a.c.
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/02/12 02:20 PM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hi Jake, thanks for your feedback.

On the first point, right at the begenning I wrote:

Sharp or flat is referred to the note (centre string) I’m
meant to tune. The already-tuned note is in brackets “()”:...".

Then I wrote:..."Step 2 − (A4)-A3 - tiny little flat, just on the beating
threshold"

Perhaps for the novice tuner I should add one notion: from an apparently beatless point, we can make a "wide" interval either by sharpening the top note or by flattening the bottom note; and we can make a "narrow" interval either by flattening the top note or by sharpening the bottom note.

Do you think this would help? Would this suggest that the Step-2 (A4)-A3 interval is clearly going to be wide?


No, no. The problem is, if memory serves me correctly, later in the sequence, you refer to a narrow octave as a flat octave. As a result, I assumed that the sequence was saying that the A3-A4 octave should be narrow. (Although I doubted that you meant to say this.)

A note for novice tuners explaining how an octave can be made narrow or wide might be good, but my problem was just with the use of the word "flat" speaking of an octave. I would suggest using simple, declarative statements such as:

"Tune A3 very slightly flat from A4, just at the edge of beating, creating a wide octave."

(In other words, write full sentences, so that a simple verb such as "tune" or "raise" or "lower" applies to one of the strings in the interval in each step.)
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/02/12 02:29 PM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hi Jake,

you wrote:

..."2. The tuning partials are not defined. Are all of the steps referring to the pitch of the fundamentals?."...

All the steps are referred to low partial matchings, like 2:1, 3:2 and so on, but actually when I tune I listen to beats and compare them, I don't think about partials.

To All, Happy *20.New Year.12*

a.c.


But the partials are what beat, yes? Without knowing what low partials you are listening to for beating, reproducing CHas from these instructions is at best difficult.

Has your excellent practice as an aural tuner led you away from specifying exactly what you listen to, which may well be different partials on different pairs of notes (as opposed to just the usual practice of listening to different partials on different intervals, but always using the same partials for the same intervals)? In other words, you know the sound that you want, and obviously get, but writing down all of the exact partials seems tedious? I hate to say it, but defining these low partials seems to be needed. It might help if you did a tuning with another good tuner taking notes while you explained what you were listening for. (What has happened to dear Oleg?)

As always, a great admirer of the truly remarkable sound that you get from pianos,

Jake
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/03/12 07:51 PM


Hi Jake.

..."No, no. The problem is, if memory serves me correctly, later in the sequence, you refer to a narrow octave as a flat octave. As a result, I assumed that the sequence was saying that the A3-A4 octave should be narrow. (Although I doubted that you meant to say this.)"...

Would you be able to point out where - later in the sequence - I refer to a narrow octave as a flat octave?

..."A note for novice tuners explaining how an octave can be made narrow or wide might be good,..."...

Do you mean this(?): ...we can make a "wide" interval either by sharpening the top note or by flattening the bottom note; and we can make a "narrow" interval either by flattening the top note or by sharpening the bottom note.

Someone says that ET octaves can be narrow, I cannot (and would never) say that. Chas ET octaves are wide and get slowly wider and wider.

..."but my problem was just with the use of the word "flat" speaking of an octave. I would suggest using simple, declarative statements such as: "Tune A3 very slightly flat from A4, just at the edge of beating, creating a wide octave." (In other words, write full sentences, so that a simple verb such as "tune" or "raise" or "lower" applies to one of the strings in the interval in each step.)"...

I agree, your way is much clearer. Thank you.

a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. - Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo - 2009, Italy:
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

Article by Professor Nicola Chiriano - published by P.RI.ST.EM (Progetto Ricerche Storiche E Metodologiche) - University "Bocconi" - Milano, 2010 - (Italian):
http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte

Chas Recordings:
http://www.chas.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64&Itemid=44&lang=it



Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/06/12 11:06 AM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Would you be able to point out where - later in the sequence - I refer to a narrow octave as a flat octave?



I cannot find the sequence on your site, now. I apologize if I misspoke, but I thought that the near the end, a narrow octave was defined as flat.

In any case, I'm looking forward to your revisions, to hearing the results as we attempt the tuning, and reading the ongoing discussion. I hope that your holidays were good, and that many songs were played on pianos that you tuned.

Happy New Year.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/14/12 09:28 AM


Hi Jake,

Thank you for your words. I've checked the website, you'll find Chas sequence here:

http://www.chas.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=40&Itemid=38&lang=en

From another thread:

Re: tuning the easy way? #1824040 - Yesterday at 12:00 PM

partistic:

..."...you would have to pay attention to the tuning pin movement, if you would like to have a decently stable tuning. It is important not to have a clockwise twist on the tuning pin, since hitting the strings with the hammers adds counterclockwise torque making the twist likely to untwist and detune the note."...

In my opinion you (partistic) managed to word that fundamental issue very nicely. I hope to be able to deepen on that (with you All), as in my experience pins control and "stable tuning" enable us to move towards our favorite tuning form.

Personally, I "charge" all pins also with a "counterclockwise torque". In fact, the "counterclockwise torque" is what is meant to have to determine the actual frequency. In other words (perhaps you can help me), the correct frequency must be the "natural" outcome, resulting from the balance between the string's pulling and the pin's counterclockwise "charge".

What about you?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: erichlof

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/15/12 01:20 AM

Hi Alfredo,
I just wanted some clarification. When speaking of "counterclockwise torque", does that mean that you tune the note as normal and then, at the last minute, twist the tuning lever counterclockwise just a little bit, and then leave the note like that? Does this make it more stable in your experience? In other words, when and how much counterclockwise torque do you apply?

Thanks!
-Erich
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/16/12 06:31 AM


Hi Erich,

Let's consider the case of a "normal" pin and say that I'm tuning a flat note: while I turn the hammer clockwise, I evaluate how much clockwise torque and pin bending is taking place for the pin to turn at its bottom (down inside the pin-block). This allows me to get an idea of the pin's behavior and lets me guess the over pull. In the meantime I'm getting passed the "right spot"; then I can over pull, knowing that in order to get back to the right spot with the correct "pin charge" I'll have to "subtract" the clockwise torque and pin's bending (on a grand), possibly gaining the right spot with a (very) small amount of counterclockwise torque and (very) little pin-bending towards the speaking length of the string.

You ask: how much counterclockwise torque do you apply?

There I evaluate the pin's propensity to move; in other words, how much force (on the pin) would make the pitch flat or sharp: I refer flat Vs sharp propensity to the pin's counterclockwise torque and bending, and measure the pin's propensity (to flatten or sharpen the pitch) by touching lightly the tuning hammer. The flat Vs sharp force rapport I "normally" establish goes from 7/3 to 8/2, meaning that I need 7 or 8 points of push-flat force against 3 or 2 points of pull-sharp force.

I hope I could answer your question, perhaps you can word this practice more clearly. Please let me know if this post is only more confusing and I will delete it.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/16/12 12:12 PM

Alfredo,

In the tuning sequence, you DO refer to a narrow interval as flat. Here's the line, from near the end:

"So far, apart from A3-D4, I have stretched “flat” (narrow) –
now I’ll stretch “sharp” (wide)…"


When are you going to do that video of you tuning?
Posted by: erichlof

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/16/12 02:31 PM

Thanks Alfredo. Most of it makes sense. I think that I naturally or intuitively do this already to some extent (maybe not as accurate or calculated as you though). I pull slightly past the correct pitch, and then ever so slightly turn (or just touch)the tuning lever counterclockwise. I think this more or less along the lines of what you are doing, right?

One thing I couldn't figure out from your post though was the term 'Vs'. What is a 'V'?

Thanks again!
-Erich
Posted by: ChickGrand

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/16/12 05:27 PM

"versus"
Posted by: erichlof

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/17/12 12:38 AM

Ah - thanks!
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/18/12 07:21 AM


Hi ChickGrand, thanks for helping, and thanks Jake.

Hi Erich, You say ..."I pull slightly past the correct pitch, and then ever so slightly turn (or just touch)the tuning lever counterclockwise. I think this more or less along the lines of what you are doing, right?"...

In general I think that's correct, I understand that from a higher pitch you get down to the right spot. But that, to me, means that you take away some clockwise torque only.

These are (more or less) the steps I refer to (in general):

1 - Turn the lever clockwise (apply and evaluate pin torque and bending)
2 - Turn clockwise (you must feel the pin rotating at its bottom)
3 - Turn clockwise (overpull - the above and this, all in one go - how sharp? It depends on the pin torque-bending/rotation rapport)
4 - Turn counterclockwise (for zeroing clockwise torque while you are still high in pitch - the pin must not rotate)
5 - Turn counterclockwise (get passed the right spot - now going flat you "charge" the pin - the pin has not rotated)
6 - Release the lever and help the pin's setting (now your pin has a residual counterclockwise torque that can balance the string's tension and the hammer impacts)
7 - Check the pin's charge (as explained in a previous post)

Of course, avoid practicing on a piano that you want to preserve.

To go through steps 1-2-3 will take one or two seconds; steps 4 and 5 may require more time/seconds, depending on the pin. Few more seconds for steps 6 and 7.

All this to say that many beginners are very concerned about the pitch, and many of them go for the pitch on its own, mainly concentrating on that. But really, in order to hear pitches and beats, after a while, you do not need to concentrate, actually you'll hear all that even if you do not want to. What I concentrate on is the pin's behavior, the amount of torque it can take and how it turns inside the pinblock.

Regards, a.c.

Edit: This post is about the "pin charge" issue; do not forget to distribute the string's tension on its three lengths.
Posted by: erichlof

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/19/12 01:36 AM

Thanks for the detailed explanation Alfredo. I understand now what you are trying to accomplish. I must say that I have not tried this "charging" technique before. It is very interesting and I might give it a try on an older piano that I have access to. Always something to learn! smile
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/07/12 01:46 PM


#1909239 - June 06, 2012 12:10 PM Circular Harmonic System (C.HA.S) Tuning

Weiyan Offline
Full Member

Registered: October 05, 2011
Posts: 362
Loc: Hong Kong

I am practicing CHAS tuning with the help of Issac.

I am using Afredo Capurso's Procedur.

This is my exercise today.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-june-2012
M3 progression

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-june-2012
Fourths progression

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-june-2012
Fifths progression

C-G / D-G, either one of these intervals too fast.

Suggestions are welcome.

Thanks you.

- . - . - . -

Hi Weiyan,

Few words in general:

1 - remember that any pitch can move a little bit at any time;
2 - after you expand your octave, you will be able to countercheck all notes from A3 to A4 and correct them even more;
3 - always relate (in your mind) one interval to another one, make a relation between intervals, never think that you are tuning one single interval;
4 - at this stage, do not look for perfection.

First consider (and tune) four notes, A4, A3, D and E (or E and D); you will need to evaluate these 4 notes (five intervals) together, evaluate their relation, because the octave, two 4ths and two 5ths will allow you to set the premises.

Leave A4 a little bit sharp (high in pitch), A3-A4 must be very very little wide, you would say it is just, beat-less, but you must be able to notice that it has some life. Play your octave and, before the sound goes off, you must be able to notice that it is going to "open", it want to grow in a sort of m…muuuuuoooooaaaa, it is not still/dead.

Tune D4 to A3 - That is a 4th, so sharpen D from just, find 1 bps (not more) and make it, if you can, just a little bit slower or leave it like that. In your rec, it is too just.

Check D4-A4, this 5th must sound almost just, very little life in it. In your rec., it is too narrow.

Tune E4 to A3 - That's a 5th, so make it narrow by lowering E4 from just. In your rec. it was quite good.

Check E4-A4, this 4th must be wide, around 2 bps. In your rec. it was too just, you needed A4 a bit higher.

So you have:

A3-D4 (4th) almost 1 bps (in your rec. it was too just)
D4-A4 (5th) almost just (in your rec. it was too narrow)
A3-E4 (5th) with a very slow beat (in your rec. (say for now) it was good
E4-A4 (4th) faster than A3-D4, almost 2 bps (in your rec. it was too just)

In bps order (from faster to slower):

E4-A4 (4th) faster than A3-D4, almost 2 bps (in your rec. it was too just)
A3-D4 (4th) almost 1 bps (in your rec. it was too just)
A3-E4 (5th) with a very slow beat (in your rec. (say for now) it was good)
D4-A4 (5th) almost just (in your rec. it was too narrow)
A3-A4 (in your rec. it was too just)

Please tell me if my English allows you to follow. If you like, make a rec. with only these five intervals. Same recording speed and method.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/07/12 06:11 PM

Hello ALfredo, you say :

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Of course, avoid practicing on a piano that you want to preserve.

To go through steps 1-2-3 will take one or two seconds; steps 4 and 5 may require more time/seconds, depending on the pin. Few more seconds for steps 6 and 7.

All this to say that many beginners are very concerned about the pitch, and many of them go for the pitch on its own, mainly concentrating on that. But really, in order to hear pitches and beats, after a while, you do not need to concentrate, actually you'll hear all that even if you do not want to. What I concentrate on is the pin's behavior, the amount of torque it can take and how it turns inside the pinblock.

Regards, a.c.



My experience (indeed once the technique is more or less mastered) is that at the contrary, a pianao that tend to show apoor holding and a too smooth pin rotation, will have its grip raised and way more than I was expecting.

I finally wondered if the pin does not get "twisted" some, so its grip get better.
I also noticed that on a really poor piano where the pin slips again and again, making the whole process (un charging, raising very slowly overpulling and torquing back) raise the grip after 3 or 4 times it is done.

There I wondered if when we uncharge then turn (very slowly) we are not reorienting a little the fiber inside the hole, that in the end provides a little more grip.

Naturally I would have think that the more I manipulate the pin in an old tired block, the more it get tired and slippery, but my experience was exactly the opposite.

SO working on any piano to learn the method can be done in my opinion , but care may be taken to respect well the orientation of the tuning lever so to avoid undue stress on the "bed" of the pin (the +-45°-60° part of the hole where the pin is really braked).

Best regards...
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/07/12 11:20 PM

Afredo:

Thank you. I can here the beats in the record. Its easier to here beats in record.

For F-A, I feel its too quiet, now confirmed my hearing. Thank you.

Your English is easy to understand, except the word "just". Sometimes its may interpret as correct in ET, sometimes it may be refer to pure interval. If the just is refer to ET, not help to me. I am not trained to tune ET aurally, although had practice ET 4th/5th for a month.

Going to today's practice session.

Thank you..
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 07:52 AM

This is today's practice.

Tried to correct last tuning, but one note slipped away. So retune from ground.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-8-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-8-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-8-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-8-june-2012

The frequency of this octave:

A3: 220.1
A#3: 232
B3: 246.7
C4: 256.9
C#4: 276
D4: 294.3
D#4: 308.8
E4: 329.6
F4: 347.3
F#4: 369.7
G4: 390.6
G#4: 413.8
A4: 441.1(Attack is 442)
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 08:09 AM

Self critique:

Thirds:
A#-D: slow
D-F#: slow
D#-G: fast
F-A: slow

Fourths:
A#-D#: fast
C-F: Fast
E-F: Slower than previous intervals

Fifths:
B-F#: Fast
C-G: Fast
C#-G#: Fast

May be G-E too slow???

thank you for suggestion.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 09:21 AM


Good job, Weiyan.

Honk Kong time is 9.21 pm, I am writing now so that you can read this.

I have played your recs only once, to get an idea. Let's see your first rec (octave).

These are your "base" intervals (Please notice, the second last is not A4-E4 but A3-E4):

A3-A4 - A bit too wide. Listen how you can hear some movement very soon, at the beginning, too soon, you want that to happen a little bit later.
A3-D4 - Too wide. Can you hear 2+ bps?
D4-A4 - Nice. More typical for A3-E4. Make it less narrow.
A3-E4 - Nice.
E4-A4 - Too wide. Can you hear 3+ bps?

Now you can see (next it will be "visualize" in your mind) that:

A4 is too wide for A3 and E4
D4 is too wide for A3
D4-A4 is very close

What can you do?

You put a little bit down (lower in pitch - perhaps with a forte blow) A4 and D4. Also, you want D4 and A4 less narrow, so D4 must go down (in pitch) a bit more than A4.

I will analyze attentively your other recs tomorrow, please tell me if you can follow.

"Just" is referred to beat-less, still, no-beating intervals.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 10:51 AM

Hi Afredo,

Refresh the browser before switching off the computer, I saw your reply. Thank you.

For counting beats, I have to take more exercise to learn counting beat. I think in CHAS is easier to count beats.

A3-D4: 1bps
E4-A4: 2bps
D4-A4: nearly no beat. In the procedure sheet, its "faint beating". I guess its nearly just.

A3-E4: 1.5 beats / 3s. This is most difficult interval. So I focus on other interval. If the other three interval beats correct, this will be correct.

Counting 1 or 2 bpse is easy to count 3.5 beats in 5 second.

For hearing the beats, its easier with recorded sound. In real tuning session, if stand up in tuning position, the beats are not so clear. When seating down, the beats are clear.

The width of A3-A4 is difficult.

Its good idea to focus on the first octave and the four intervals. Will going on practice tomorrow. Hopefully I had a correct pitch piano to play on Sunday.

Best wishes to all friends here.

Weiyan
Posted by: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 11:13 AM

Hi Alfredo, Weiyan~
Just tuned in to the discussion. I love this stuff!!!

Here's my suggestion. Hope it helps...

As for making A3-A4 slightly wide, compare the beat rate from F2 to each, making A3 beat ever so slightly slower than A4, taking into account you've already set A4 at 440. In a perfect world A3 beats half as fast as A4, so it needs to beat ever so slightly less than half.

Glen

Alfredo, here is a short sample tune I recorded right after a tuning in April. I hope you are doing quite well!
https://www.box.com/s/778175e3b3395ffd8264
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 12:47 PM

Say something nice Alfredo wink after one year of tuning I find Glen is at a very good level and find a personal tone. I agree 100% with his unisons and I like the global color.

How did you make that temperament , Glen ?
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 02:47 PM

Hi Glen,

I'm fine, thanks.

I really enjoyed listening to your sample, very nice playing (did you compose that piece?) and nice sound too, I like your sensitivity.

Then you know that if I were to really check a tuning I'd follow a precise procedure all across the keyboard.

It is nice to read about you here.

Regards,

Alfredo
Posted by: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 07:39 PM

Thanks, Alfredo~
Yes, it is an on-the-fly composition - glad you like the music and sound. The idea you think that must mean the tuning is decent, and it is appreciated. I spend a great deal of focus on unisons and octaves, octaves and fifths, and two octaves from the tempered section.

Glen
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 10:03 PM

Inlanding:

Thank you.

I like your song and the tuning. I like the tuning with rich consonant, and the voice is open. How you tune your piano?

For the 3rd/10th checking, Alfredo had not mentioned in the procedure sheet. I think CHAS octave better check by A3-D: 1bps, A3-E4: 1.5bs/3s, E4-A4: 2bps.

Its morning and birds whistle outside. I have to correct yesterday's tuning. Yesterday worked 6 hours on the 12 note. I hope today have time to record some unison tuning.

Have a nice weekend.
Posted by: RichDHill

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 10:12 PM

I have to chime in on this on. Thanks to Bill Bremmer for his input. I went to Grayson County College for a year to learn to tune by ear and have been tuning for 23 years and have tuned for some pros and non pros and have found the same results. That is, every piano is different, and I try to listen to the 4th and 5th two and three beats from pure (either below or above) and octaves at just over the pure going up the scale and below going down the scale from middle C. All those equations can confuse the ear, (in my opinion)if you tune by ear. If you use an instrument then it may be helpful to follow some equations. After I do the temperament I play a G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7 to listen to the 6th's and 5th's. If they are too noisy I can adjust. Also I check the thirds and 6th's by them self. I have been successful using this method. Each piano is a challenge and takes time to find the right time to stop moving the string, cause you can't tune out a single strings false beat. Other factors can enter like hammers with deep groves or not striking the strings at the same time. Even a grand that has hammers that can't follow the angle of the strings will sound different than one that does. No equation will help in that kind of problem. The ear is quite unique and will compensate usually with acceptable results for most people.
Posted by: Cinnamonbear

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 10:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Inlanding
[...] Alfredo, here is a short sample tune I recorded right after a tuning in April. I hope you are doing quite well!
https://www.box.com/s/778175e3b3395ffd8264


Glen,

Gorgeous sound! So mellow! Nice musical development in the improv, too! Beautiful, sensitive playing. Thanks for posting this, and happy birthday, too!!! grin

--Andy
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 03:50 AM

This is today's CHAS tuning session.

The C-G and D-G gap can't be closed. Tried several times, finally find out G# has false beat, so always C#-G# wider, finally lead to higher F, then C and G. The D-G always wider. Change the tuning sequence to avoid the false beat note appear too early. G has false beat too. May be my felt mute technique is troublesome.

The false beat appears only when there is felt mute.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-june-2012

In the record, there are birds whistle.

Best wishes to all friends and have a nice weekend.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 05:38 AM

Hello , thanks for shiming in .

About the advantage of equations practically :

I see that there is a justness model an at the same time an acoustical effect that can be described and heard.

Pianos depending of their own justness , will adopt more or less well those, but some processes are strong in consonance and others less. In the end more harmony makes the piano singing more , which is appreciated.

The use of the chas pretuning allow the instrument to settle in a certain resonance by itself, to conform to the progressiveness. Of intervals , and it certainly fraud the ear, which is fun in that case.

I am unsure of the relation with B. Bremmer. ?

I bet that when a piano have to conform to an acoustical effect there is no need to fight with iH it may be inclueded in the final pitch heard and just make the overall color more spicy.

Talking of confusing the ear, (or the mind wink please explain :

"fter I do the temperament I play a G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7 to listen to the 6th's and 5th's"

Also 5ths with 2-3 bps, . Are you real ? if I tuned 5 th with 2 or 3 beats I would never enlarge the octaves !
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 06:04 AM

Hi All, Hi Weiyan,

"Self critique" is most correct, when you have refined your self critique ability you can be your own tutor and revisor, every day, it is THE must, throughout all your career. Beats are always there, they only call for aural skill, rhythm sensitivity and honesty.

..."For counting beats, I have to take more exercise to learn counting beat. I think in CHAS is easier to count beats.

A3-D4: 1bps
E4-A4: 2bps
D4-A4: nearly no beat. In the procedure sheet, its "faint beating". I guess its nearly just."...

Yes, D4-A4 is "nearly just".

..."A3-E4: 1.5 beats / 3s. This is most difficult interval. So I focus on other interval. If the other three interval beats correct, this will be correct."...

Yes, correct (in general). We will see that all relations can be refined by adding more intervals. This comes with time.

..."The width of A3-A4 is difficult."...

Do not worry, more difficult is perhaps hammer control and stability, give yourself time. The ability to compare beats (rhythms), control the hammer (your whole body) and visualize the "interval relations map" (+ aural power) can develop in parallel, try not to force it and... if you get tired, have a rest.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-8-june-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-8-june-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-8-june-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-8-june-2012

Self critique:

Thirds:
A#-D: slow
D-F#: slow
D#-G: fast
F-A: slow

What I hear:

1 - A3-C#: slow - about 3 bps
2 - A#-D: very fast - like for a sequence of photograms, if the speed rate is very high we cannot separate beats. Remember your D4?
3 - B-D#: slow - around 2 bps
4 - C-E: fast
5 - C#-F: Ok (for now)
6 - D-F#: slow + slower than the previous (C#-F) - about 5 bps
7 - D#-G: Ok - next time you want 6 between 5 and 7
8 - E-G#: slow - you can compare with the previous
9 - F-A4: fast - same effect for A#-D

- . - . - . -

Fourths:
A#-D#: fast
C-F: Fast
E-F: Slower than previous intervals

- . - . - . -

Yes, those two intervals are fast; try to avoid very fast 4ths, like C#-F# and D-G, can you hear they are much faster?

- . - . - . -

Fifths:
B-F#: Fast
C-G: Fast
C#-G#: Fast

- . - . - . -

A3-E - Ok (for now); can you hear the beat starts at your playing? You want the beat start (show) a bit later. Stay close to this effect, close to C#-G# and D-A4.

Your self critique will get better. For now, consider also this general rule: 4ths beat faster than 5ths.
First step (at the beginning), make 4ths very similar - going from A3-D to E-A4, chas 4ths get progressively faster (wider).
First step (at the beginning), make 5ths very similar - going from A3-E to D-A4 and up, chas 5ths get slower (more and more just).

I see now more samples, I'll have a check.

Have a nice w.e. you too, a.c.

Edit: stay close to your five "base" intervals, comparing everything you can: beats, noise, tension, flavor, taste, movement.

Those birds are lovely.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 06:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
This is today's CHAS tuning session.

The C-G and D-G gap can't be closed. Tried several times, finally find out G# has false beat, so always C#-G# wider, finally lead to higher F, then C and G. The D-G always wider. Change the tuning sequence to avoid the false beat note appear too early. G has false beat too. May be my felt mute technique is troublesome.

The false beat appears only when there is felt mute.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-june-2012

In the record, there are birds whistle.

Best wishes to all friends and have a nice weekend.



http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012

A3-A4 Ok
A3-D too just
D-A4 beats wide (in general, check by moving your hammer gently)
A3-E Ok
E-A4 Ok

I would raise D4.

The rest... later on.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 06:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Inlanding
Thanks, Alfredo~
Yes, it is an on-the-fly composition - glad you like the music and sound. The idea you think that must mean the tuning is decent, and it is appreciated. I spend a great deal of focus on unisons and octaves, octaves and fifths, and two octaves from the tempered section.

Glen


Hi Glen,

That tuning is more than decent, all together it sounded nice! Yes, good that you are focusing also onto the expansion of the temperament octave, that makes a complete good tuning.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 07:14 AM

#1910771 - June 09, 2012 02:12 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]

RichDHill Offline
Junior Member

Registered: May 10, 2012
Posts: 2

..."I have to chime in on this on. Thanks to Bill Bremmer for his input."...

Hi Rich, thank you both.

..."I went to Grayson County College for a year to learn to tune by ear and have been tuning for 23 years and have tuned for some pros and non pros and have found the same results. That is, every piano is different, and I try to listen to the 4th and 5th two and three beats from pure (either below or above) and octaves at just over the pure going up the scale and below going down the scale from middle C. All those equations can confuse the ear, (in my opinion)if you tune by ear."...

I would never say "use equations" for tuning. Where did you get that idea?

..."If you use an instrument then it may be helpful to follow some equations."...

In my view, not even then. Instruments require only one finger for settings.

..."After I do the temperament I play a G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7 to listen to the 6th's and 5th's. If they are too noisy I can adjust."...

Adjusting is always good. In octave 7 (C7-C8) I rearly use 5ths and 6ths. I use more octaves, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths.

..."Also I check the thirds and 6th's by them self. I have been successful using this method. Each piano is a challenge and takes time to find the right time to stop moving the string, cause you can't tune out a single strings false beat."....

Yes, it takes time.

..."Other factors can enter like hammers with deep groves or not striking the strings at the same time. Even a grand that has hammers that can't follow the angle of the strings will sound different than one that does."...

Sure.

..."No equation will help in that kind of problem."...

I agree, It would be pretty strange thinking otherwise.

..."The ear is quite unique and will compensate usually with acceptable results for most people."...

Here I would not discuss maths nor theory, but real tuning, approach and general practice. When ever you want to doublecheck, your samples are welcome.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 07:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Kamin
Hello , thanks for shiming in .

About the advantage of equations practically :

I see that there is a justness model an at the same time an acoustical effect that can be described and heard.

Pianos depending of their own justness , will adopt more or less well those, but some processes are strong in consonance and others less. In the end more harmony makes the piano singing more , which is appreciated.

The use of the chas pretuning allow the instrument to settle in a certain resonance by itself, to conform to the progressiveness. Of intervals , and it certainly fraud the ear, which is fun in that case.

I am unsure of the relation with B. Bremmer. ?

I bet that when a piano have to conform to an acoustical effect there is no need to fight with iH it may be inclueded in the final pitch heard and just make the overall color more spicy.

Talking of confusing the ear, (or the mind wink please explain :

"fter I do the temperament I play a G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7 to listen to the 6th's and 5th's"

Also 5ths with 2-3 bps, . Are you real ? if I tuned 5 th with 2 or 3 beats I would never enlarge the octaves !


Hi Isaac,

I must believe that Rich was told about some theory, but I cannot say if he was told how to separate theory from practice.

Bill, after three years of sharing, shows no interest at all, be it Chas theory or Pre-tuning practice. I'm still puzzled and do not really know what to think.

Together, iH + tuning approximations make many checks pretty blunt, a useless misleading exercise, as iH will upset the tuning. That is why Bill says (and wrote) that octaves do not define the character of a tuning, and 12ths and 15ths end up being all over the place.

Also, 4ths and 5ths are still said to be similar and there is no acceptance of the 5ths beat rate inversion; by adding this to the above, I get an answer.

Have a nice day,

Alfredo
Posted by: woodog

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 09:22 AM

I can add nothing to this thread except to give my thanks to all the contributors for sharing their work. I was up way late last night listening and thinking about this process. I hope to be a decent tuner one day.

Forrest
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 09:49 AM

I guess Bill want to "sell" it own method, but he is reading too (I noticed he changed his unison tuning and possibly lever method since 2 years - which is OK, anyone can change at some point, but I recall the way he was tuning that piano in the thread my piano in EBVT, could not really hold in time, while his actual tone is better wink

In fact I told to Weiyan (and to Inlanding 2 years ago) how easy I find the intervals tuning in the pretuning ; indeed I have seen that with some experience at hand, but when I see how Inlanding developed a nice tone, and how fast Weiyan is catching on unison work I ma persuaded that things will go faster by now.

We are breaking a myth there, about the so many long time necessary to learn to build a decent tuning (well it is left hours and numerous pianos to tune but the time lost looking for answers is certainly reduced).

I mostly believe incorrect explanations with no focus on the important parts, the abuse of ETD, makes the tuners way less efficiently learning, then many are simply "doing their job" without trying to learn more, as soon as the customer is satisfied - I experiment the same here with pianists that are immediately aware that the tuning does not move, that it is "solid" gives a robustness sensation, confidence in playing, to me the robustness of a tuning is something that is perceived, the lack of is more or less.

I now have seen Chas tunings a year later, and most often the relation stay put (no explanations on that)

But having some structurally comprehensible definitions, finding words and exercises, was not so easy.

Inlanding was lucky he could work in a shop tuning different pianos, hence his fast results (he also have a good musical sense that certainly makes a difference between tuners)

I believe that as soon Weyian could setup a good temperament (or pre tuning temperament, so to say), if he could work on different pianos he will progress fast.

I am persuaded that the intervals will be mastered soon.

Could you record a tuning sequence, Alfredo (may be not on a concert piano, but something that is done more fast wink

Did you notice the raising of torque on pianos that look almost un-tuneable (I hope you don't have many in your customers !)


I will tune a vertical tonight, I have PR 1 1/2 tone in January, using the pretuning method. I will record it before tuning... it is supposed to be really out of tune, but the customer , a cellist, tells me "there are a few notes" ... We will see.

Greetings
Posted by: RichDHill

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 10:07 AM

I will have to ask Kamin and others about the 4th's and 5th's who are in this discussion. After I tune the A to 440 I tune octave below to it. Then I tune D where I have about 3 rolls above pure, ( these are slight rolls) then G to about 2 rolls above. Each 5th and 4th will be the same, G to C, C to F, I do the F octave, then F to Bb, checking also ovtave F to Bb, Bb to Eb, Eb to Ab, Ab to Cb, Cb to Gb, Gb to B, then B to E. then E should be already tuned to A, if not I will check until it works, (I can go to the sharp or flat, but I chose sharp because I come for the sharp and bring it down to set the pin). If I'm right then F3 to Bb4 will be 2 rolls flat and F4 to Bb will be 3 rolls sharp. I then tune the octaves above with just a very slight roll to sharp going up the scale from my temperament and flat going down. That gives the stretch tuning. When I get to say C6 I can hit C6 and G4 and will hear about the same roll as I do with C4 and G3. I have no problem with this tuning as I widen the 4th's or 5th's and the octaves.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 10:16 AM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
This is today's CHAS tuning session.

The C-G and D-G gap can't be closed. Tried several times, finally find out G# has false beat, so always C#-G# wider, finally lead to higher F, then C and G. The D-G always wider. Change the tuning sequence to avoid the false beat note appear too early. G has false beat too. May be my felt mute technique is troublesome.

The false beat appears only when there is felt mute.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-june-2012

In the record, there are birds whistle.

Best wishes to all friends and have a nice weekend.



http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012

A3-A4 Ok
A3-D too just
D-A4 beats wide (in general, check by moving your hammer gently)
A3-E Ok
E-A4 Ok

I would raise D4.

The rest... later on.

"breaking" of all intervals when the unisons are tuned is surprising and helps to avoid that too actives 10ths and 6ths we have in the standard method

I wonder if the "energy method" as I used in unison tuning can be used for octaves, I would suggest it can be the foundation of a good octave, then we only have to regulate the "opening" , hence the speed at which the beat begin to speak.

On a good piano the vibes of the strings are felt in the tuning hammer also.

All the best !
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 10:36 AM

Originally Posted By: RichDHill
I will have to ask Kamin and others about the 4th's and 5th's who are in this discussion. After I tune the A to 440 I tune octave below to it. Then I tune D where I have about 3 rolls above pure, ( these are slight rolls) then G to about 2 rolls above. Each 5th and 4th will be the same, G to C, C to F, I do the F octave, then F to Bb, checking also ovtave F to Bb, Bb to Eb, Eb to Ab, Ab to Cb, Cb to Gb, Gb to B, then B to E. then E should be already tuned to A, if not I will check until it works, (I can go to the sharp or flat, but I chose sharp because I come for the sharp and bring it down to set the pin). If I'm right then F3 to Bb4 will be 2 rolls flat and F4 to Bb will be 3 rolls sharp. I then tune the octaves above with just a very slight roll to sharp going up the scale from my temperament and flat going down. That gives the stretch tuning. When I get to say C6 I can hit C6 and G4 and will hear about the same roll as I do with C4 and G3. I have no problem with this tuning as I widen the 4th's or 5th's and the octaves.


Hello thank you for the explanations, I am sure you have no problem basically, if you can obtain reconciliation of your intervals, have everything following a given structure, in the end the piano is sounding in tune.

Looking at the speed of 5ths and 4ths you allow, I wonder if the tone is not very "greasy" with much activity. Where do you hear the intervals are the most consonant ?

Also in your temperament sequence you did not include checks of progressiveness for the fast beating intervals, which are to me the mean to keep the control on the slow beating ones.

You aim for a progressiveness of 5 ths and 4ths in the A3 A4 octave, if I follow you well

A good sequence allow for checks between chromatic , contiguous or a step apart fast beating intervals,

If you could post a few samples of your temperament sequence I like to hear them.

Something I like is that you are tuning beats in slow beating intervals, this is opposed to what many of us are trying to do i.e tend to pure 5ths or pure intervals. In the end that gives you more freeness and good listening habits may be possibly a particular tone, that can be appreciated .

The method seem to me as an somewhat old way as was told some time ago, before the trade begin to use the 3ds (it could be along time ago, as Pleyel have proposed a ladder of third based temperament.

Do you tune on one string (strip muting) ?

Best regards
Posted by: RichDHill

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 11:13 AM

I do use a strip for the middle part of the piano and use the rubber for the bass and treble, starting with tuning the right string first and then the middle and then the left after the strip mute. That gives me the ability to use the rubber mute to have only two strings to vibrate. Going down the bass I tune the left first and then the right. Very few times will I mute the whole piano. If I do I am tying to set the middle string across the whole scale first consternating on octaves only.
I also check the 3rd's and the 6th's of the temperament. If I do it right and the piano responds the 3rd's will graduate from slow to fast beats starting from F3 and A3 to F4 to C#4. The 6th's will be the same graduated slow to faster beats.
I cannot brag on myself, but I have tuned for people like Brian Adams, Alicia Keys, Ronnie Milsap, Victor Borge, and many others and a number of Professors of music from universities in Alabama and Florida. Also studio musicians form Nashville that come down to play here in Montgomery. I have had no bad words about my tuning as to date, ( except for the piano that was available to them where they came to. Some find it hard to play on a 5 1/2 foot when they are use to a 9 foot). The way I tune I have a good built in vibrato that will sound great on a good piano. I have tuned a many bad sounding pianos that no matter what you do it sounds like it needs tuning. I find that most home pianos are, (at least around here) are very poor sounding. Mostly due to a piano sold that has not been prep. Most people do not,(to my dismay) hear the difference like I do. A few will appreciate a good tuning. Every once in a while I run across someone who hears things that I don't hear. One lady I tuned for kept telling me the Eb 6 did not sound right to her, so I did the octave and let her hear and then the unisons and she was fine for about 2 minutes. She kept going back to it. But for the most after 23 years I have been successful and got many repeat costumers. Not that I have no need to continue to hone my skills. Every piano is exercising and honing my skills to be a better tuner.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By: woodog
I can add nothing to this thread except to give my thanks to all the contributors for sharing their work. I was up way late last night listening and thinking about this process. I hope to be a decent tuner one day.

Forrest


Hi Woodog,

You can well hope that, I have no doubts. Tuning can be fan, and you seem to like it.

Originally Posted By: RichDHill
I will have to ask Kamin and others about the 4th's and 5th's who are in this discussion. After I tune the A to 440 I tune octave below to it. Then I tune D where I have about 3 rolls above pure, ( these are slight rolls) then G to about 2 rolls above. Each 5th and 4th will be the same, G to C, C to F, I do the F octave, then F to Bb, checking also ovtave F to Bb, Bb to Eb, Eb to Ab, Ab to Cb, Cb to Gb, Gb to B, then B to E. then E should be already tuned to A, if not I will check until it works, (I can go to the sharp or flat, but I chose sharp because I come for the sharp and bring it down to set the pin). If I'm right then F3 to Bb4 will be 2 rolls flat and F4 to Bb will be 3 rolls sharp. I then tune the octaves above with just a very slight roll to sharp going up the scale from my temperament and flat going down. That gives the stretch tuning. When I get to say C6 I can hit C6 and G4 and will hear about the same roll as I do with C4 and G3. I have no problem with this tuning as I widen the 4th's or 5th's and the octaves.


..."I will have to ask Kamin and others about the 4th's and 5th's who are in this discussion. After I tune the A to 440 I tune octave below to it. Then I tune D where I have about 3 rolls above pure, ( these are slight rolls) then G to about 2 rolls above."...

That makes A3-D4 rolling (do you mean beating) more than D4-G4. Or perhaps you meant G3?

..."Each 5th and 4th will be the same, G to C, C to F,..."...

If that works for you, that is good. I normally prefer to position (roll-wise // beating) every interval in between other intervals, so that I can compare and check sooner (asap), before I've gone too far. For instance, looking at your sequence (which may work perfectly Ok) I would invert the beat rate of A3-D4 and D4-G4, so that the latter rolls more than the former. Then, I would make sure that C4-G4 rolls more than D4-A4 and that C4-F4 rolling is in between A3-D4 *////* D4-G4.

..."I do the F octave, then F to Bb,..."...

Which F, F3 or F4?

..."checking also ovtave F to Bb,..."...

So you go F4 Bb3… there I would make sure that this 5th rolls more (thinking in terms of progression) than C4-G4.

..."Bb to Eb, Eb to Ab, Ab to Cb, Cb to Gb, Gb to B, then B to E. then E should be already tuned to A, if not I will check until it works, (I can go to the sharp or flat, but I chose sharp because I come for the sharp and bring it down to set the pin)."...

Yes, I understand (correct?) that you go through the whole temperament section, before checking if E4 is tuned to A.

..."If I'm right then F3 to Bb4 will be 2 rolls flat and F4 to Bb will be 3 rolls sharp."...

F4 to Bb, I think you mean Bb3, then this 5th rolls more than F3-Bb4 4th? That is not my case.

..."I then tune the octaves above with just a very slight roll to sharp going up the scale from my temperament and flat going down. That gives the stretch tuning. When I get to say C6 I can hit C6 and G4 and will hear about the same roll as I do with C4 and G3."...

C6 and G4 make a 12th, that rolls as the 4th C4-G3. This is not my case. Anyway, for instance, basing on your sequence, I'd check the 10ths progression already at A3-C#5, looking for the correct similarity with F3-A4, then getting to C6 with 10ths and 12ths all in the correct order.

..."I have no problem with this tuning as I widen the 4th's or 5th's and the octaves."...

It is good that you are happy with your tuning, as it's good that you are willing to compare your procedure as well.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: RichDHill

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 02:00 PM

I set the A first to 440 then octave A below. From that the temperament will be from F3 to F4 so all the notes will be between these two F's setting the 5th's and 4th's. So it will be tuning D from A, (3rolls sharp) G from D, (2 rolls sharp) C from G, (3 rolls sharp) F from C, (2 rolls sharp) then octave F, (above), Bb from both F's, (F3 2 rolls flat, f4 3 rolls sharp) Eb from Bb, (3 rolls sharp) Ab from Eb, 2 rolls sharp) Db from Ab, (2 rolls sharp) Gb from Ab, (3 rolls sharp) B from Gb, ( 2 rolls sharp) and then I tune E from B and it should be 3 rolls sharp and be okay from A, 2 rolls.
For me, easier done than said. When I am done I will check the 3rd's and 6th's by themselves and with the G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7. I can hear the 6th's and any 5th's that are too wide. I will do other checks as I go if needed. As long as I get it right I will not have to go back and redo. Although sometimes i will get up or down the scale and find something not quite right and have to backtrack, but not anything too bad I can't correct easily.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 02:22 PM

Originally Posted By: RichDHill
I set the A first to 440 then octave A below. From that the temperament will be from F3 to F4 so all the notes will be between these two F's setting the 5th's and 4th's. So it will be tuning D from A, (3rolls sharp) G from D, (2 rolls sharp) C from G, (3 rolls sharp) F from C, (2 rolls sharp) then octave F, (above), Bb from both F's, (F3 2 rolls flat, f4 3 rolls sharp) Eb from Bb, (3 rolls sharp) Ab from Eb, 2 rolls sharp) Db from Ab, (2 rolls sharp) Gb from Ab, (3 rolls sharp) B from Gb, ( 2 rolls sharp) and then I tune E from B and it should be 3 rolls sharp and be okay from A, 2 rolls.
For me, easier done than said. When I am done I will check the 3rd's and 6th's by themselves and with the G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7. I can hear the 6th's and any 5th's that are too wide. I will do other checks as I go if needed. As long as I get it right I will not have to go back and redo. Although sometimes i will get up or down the scale and find something not quite right and have to backtrack, but not anything too bad I can't correct easily.


I see, now (perhaps) I get it better. But then I get lost:

..."So it will be tuning D from A, (3rolls sharp)...

I understand D4 from A3;

..."G from D, (2 rolls sharp)...

G3-D4

..."C from G, (3 rolls sharp)...

C4 from G3

..."F from C, (2 rolls sharp) then octave F, (above),...

You mean F3 from C4? Then F4?

..."Bb from both F's, (F3 2 rolls flat, f4 3 rolls sharp)...

Here (perhaps) I get lost. Is it Bb3? And the 4ths F3-Bb3 rolls less than the 5th Bb3-F4?
Posted by: RichDHill

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 06:10 PM

The temperament is between F3 and F4. All 5th's I do are 3 to the sharp, and all 4th's are 2 to the sharp. If I do A to E it will be 2 to the flat. Instead I tune the E from the B because it will be from the top and be 3 rolls sharp. If I get it right the A from E will be 2 rolls flat. I always tune from the sharp. It is easier to come form the top to set the pin than from the bottom.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 07:34 PM


Thank you Rich.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/10/12 05:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
This is today's CHAS tuning session.

The C-G and D-G gap can't be closed. Tried several times, finally find out G# has false beat, so always C#-G# wider, finally lead to higher F, then C and G. The D-G always wider. Change the tuning sequence to avoid the false beat note appear too early. G has false beat too. May be my felt mute technique is troublesome.

The false beat appears only when there is felt mute.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-june-2012

In the record, there are birds whistle.

Best wishes to all friends and have a nice weekend.



About your latest fifths: there is one fifth that is very noticeably beating, C#-G#. Compare that with C-G and let me know if you can hear a big difference.

Perhaps it is time to consider one important fact: when a fifth is very very close to just, you must make sure (be sure) that it is on the correct side, namely narrow. In fact, our ear would accept almost-just fifths that are almost-just/wide, but - for example, in general - we want D4-A4 almost-just/narrow.

Let's consider the base intervals, make sure that A3-A4 is just-wide… how do you know (for sure) that A3-E4 is narrow? You have two ways: gently force your hammer (E4) ccw (counterclockwise) and see if the beat gets faster, then it was narrow. Alternatively, make sure that E4-A4 is wide.

When ever, perhaps you want to exercise your musical ear: fix one note (only centre string), go up to its fifth, tune left string (beating) narrow, right string wide, play slowly, mute in turn right-centre strings // left-centre string and try to relate the narrow and wide beating with abstract "tension" and "mood".

A narrow fifth is flabby and sad, loose and mournful. When ever please, you tell me how you "feel" a wide fifth.

Back to your latest fifths and 3rds. Ok means almost Ok.

1 - A3-E4: Ok, perhaps wide?? In fact C4-E4 is very tense, too wide;
2 - A#3-F4: Ok, in fact C#-F is Ok… BUT…
3 - B3-F#4: Ok, in fact D-F# is Ok;
4 - C4-G4: Ok, in fact D#-G is Ok;
5 - C#4-G#4: far too narrow, in fact E-G# is too sweet;
6 - D4-A4: it moves too much, I would have checked A4, perhaps it went a bit down.

Consider 5, you want C#4 down (in pitch), consequently F also down.
You tuned C#-F# too just and D#-G# too wide. This makes B3-D#4 just (pure).

Beat-wise, try to place C#-F# in between A3-D4 and E4-A4. In general, tune and compare every new interval, go correcting the most evident over-beating. Can you spot/confirm point 5?

Buona Domenica, a.c.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/10/12 06:29 AM

hello Rich I imagine the tuning as much appreciated for popular music, I suppose. I really wish I could hear a sample . If you think about it you are also respecting some model( I am unsure the word equation apply there)
I still dont understand your test with notes in the 7 octave. Or do you mean 7th?
best regards.

that is fun how we can get used to an interval quality. for instance enlarging tend to favor the projection of tone, I have seen a tuning done with small octaves that was pleasing singers but could not be used in concert without miking.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/10/12 09:03 AM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


About your latest fifths: there is one fifth that is very noticeably beating, C#-G#. Compare that with C-G and let me know if you can hear a big difference.

Perhaps it is time to consider one important fact: when a fifth is very very close to just, you must make sure (be sure) that it is on the correct side, namely narrow. In fact, our ear would accept almost-just fifths that are almost-just/wide, but - for example, in general - we want D4-A4 almost-just/narrow.

Let's consider the base intervals, make sure that A3-A4 is just-wide… how do you know (for sure) that A3-E4 is narrow? You have two ways: gently force your hammer (E4) ccw (counterclockwise) and see if the beat gets faster, then it was narrow. Alternatively, make sure that E4-A4 is wide.

When ever, perhaps you want to exercise your musical ear: fix one note (only centre string), go up to its fifth, tune left string (beating) narrow, right string wide, play slowly, mute in turn right-centre strings // left-centre string and try to relate the narrow and wide beating with abstract "tension" and "mood".

A narrow fifth is flabby and sad, loose and mournful. When ever please, you tell me how you "feel" a wide fifth.

Back to your latest fifths and 3rds. Ok means almost Ok.

1 - A3-E4: Ok, perhaps wide?? In fact C4-E4 is very tense, too wide;
2 - A#3-F4: Ok, in fact C#-F is Ok… BUT…
3 - B3-F#4: Ok, in fact D-F# is Ok;
4 - C4-G4: Ok, in fact D#-G is Ok;
5 - C#4-G#4: far too narrow, in fact E-G# is too sweet;
6 - D4-A4: it moves too much, I would have checked A4, perhaps it went a bit down.

Consider 5, you want C#4 down (in pitch), consequently F also down.
You tuned C#-F# too just and D#-G# too wide. This makes B3-D#4 just (pure).

Beat-wise, try to place C#-F# in between A3-D4 and E4-A4. In general, tune and compare every new interval, go correcting the most evident over-beating. Can you spot/confirm point 5?

Buona Domenica, a.c.


Thank you. Noticed the C#-G# beating.

Point 5, not sure if I understand.
If C#4 too low in pitch, that's C#4-F#4 too wide.
C#4-G#4 too narrow, then D#4 will be too low, then A#3 and F4 also too low. Is his the meaning of point 5?

Practice again tomorrow.
Will tune C4-G4 center string to pure fifth, then G4 left string lower a beat, right string raise a beat to listen the different of wider/narrower tone.

Thank you.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/10/12 10:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


About your latest fifths: there is one fifth that is very noticeably beating, C#-G#. Compare that with C-G and let me know if you can hear a big difference.

Perhaps it is time to consider one important fact: when a fifth is very very close to just, you must make sure (be sure) that it is on the correct side, namely narrow. In fact, our ear would accept almost-just fifths that are almost-just/wide, but - for example, in general - we want D4-A4 almost-just/narrow.

Let's consider the base intervals, make sure that A3-A4 is just-wide… how do you know (for sure) that A3-E4 is narrow? You have two ways: gently force your hammer (E4) ccw (counterclockwise) and see if the beat gets faster, then it was narrow. Alternatively, make sure that E4-A4 is wide.

When ever, perhaps you want to exercise your musical ear: fix one note (only centre string), go up to its fifth, tune left string (beating) narrow, right string wide, play slowly, mute in turn right-centre strings // left-centre string and try to relate the narrow and wide beating with abstract "tension" and "mood".

A narrow fifth is flabby and sad, loose and mournful. When ever please, you tell me how you "feel" a wide fifth.

Back to your latest fifths and 3rds. Ok means almost Ok.

1 - A3-E4: Ok, perhaps wide?? In fact C4-E4 is very tense, too wide;
2 - A#3-F4: Ok, in fact C#-F is Ok… BUT…
3 - B3-F#4: Ok, in fact D-F# is Ok;
4 - C4-G4: Ok, in fact D#-G is Ok;
5 - C#4-G#4: far too narrow, in fact E-G# is too sweet;
6 - D4-A4: it moves too much, I would have checked A4, perhaps it went a bit down.

Consider 5, you want C#4 down (in pitch), consequently F also down.
You tuned C#-F# too just and D#-G# too wide. This makes B3-D#4 just (pure).

Beat-wise, try to place C#-F# in between A3-D4 and E4-A4. In general, tune and compare every new interval, go correcting the most evident over-beating. Can you spot/confirm point 5?

Buona Domenica, a.c.


Thank you. Noticed the C#-G# beating.

Point 5, not sure if I understand.
If C#4 too low in pitch, that's C#4-F#4 too wide.
C#4-G#4 too narrow, then D#4 will be too low, then A#3 and F4 also too low. Is his the meaning of point 5?

Practice again tomorrow.
Will tune C4-G4 center string to pure fifth, then G4 left string lower a beat, right string raise a beat to listen the different of wider/narrower tone.

Thank you.



Thank you, Weiyan.

You noticed C#-G# beating, very good. It is beating because it is a very narrow 5th.

You can look at that in two ways:

- G# is too low from just (in pitch); in this case you raise G# closer to almost-just 5th;
- C# is too high from just (in pitch); in this case you lower C# (closer to almost-just 5th);

I noticed the 4th C#-F# non-beating (it is too just): in this case if you lower C# you can adjust (at least) two intervals: C#-G# gets (correct) wide and C#-F# gets less narrow (less beating - closer to just).

Please notice the chain of effect (events?): look at point 2 (A#3-F4), C#-F (as a M3) is Ok; if you lower C# you have to (must) lower also F.

In general, that is what you need to develop in time, the ability to visualize the chain of effects for every move.

In general, evaluate the effect of each move and try to improve (at least) two intervals with one move.

Always ask yourself: what happens (to the other intervals) if I modify this interval? You can do also this exercise (*) in abstract, even reasoning with yourself, without moving anything.

Regards, a.c.

(*) Edit: so doing, you will be able to draw the "intervals relation map".
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/10/12 11:15 AM

Thank you, Afredo.

I always doing mental exercise.

Had tuned for hours, still cannot reconcile C-G/D-G. G4 is last note to tune, the problem is inherited from C#4.

I don't expect any result in first few tunings, just for building up the sense of geometry.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/10/12 11:32 AM

Good comment, Weiyan.

In a while, when you are ready, I'll tell you more about the sequence. Make sure that intervals are on the correct side and... Do not forget to take a brake, things go deep down...in time.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/10/12 09:33 PM

Godd morning.

To get last minute advice before today's tuning session.

Thank you for reminding taking brake. Try to slice to 30 minutes sessions.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/10/12 11:11 PM

Analysis of sides of fifth:

A3-E4,
Tune center of E4 to pure fifth. Higher partials seems beating. There is beating at attack. The fifth may not pure.
Tune left to beat at lower side,
Tune right to beat at higher side.

Its hard to distinguish the side of fifth.


http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sides-of-fifth-11-june-2012
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 02:09 AM

Today, 11-June's morning session.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sides-of-fifth-11-june-2012
A3-D4, D4-A4 too fast

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-11-june-2012
C4-E4 slower than B3-C#4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-11-june-2012
A3-D4 too fast

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-11-june-2012
B3-F#4 too fast
C#4-G#4 too fast, D4-A4 faster than previous interval.

Correction:
Lower D4, A3-D4, D4-E4 will beat slower.

Thank you.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 02:46 AM

Corrections:

Lower D4, and fine tune the fourth progression.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-oct-c-11-june-2012
D4-A4 seems beat too fast. The A3-A4 may too narrow. Should raise A4 little.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-c-11-june-2012
D4-F#4 slower than previous interval

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-c-11-june-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-c-11-june-2012
A3-E4, B3-F#4, C#4-G#4 too fast

Thank you.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 03:04 AM


Hi Weiyan,

I have heard your rec. (previous post).

I am really happy for what you are able to hear. Also your written move (previous post) was correct.

I will be more precise later on. Well done.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 05:15 AM

Hi Afredo,

Thank you.

Sorry for making you too busy.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 07:06 AM

Alfredo is faster to help you with structure, I appreciate it it give me a rest wink Thank you Alfredo.

It is easy to be confused between too large 5ths(beating slow) and too small (correctly beating).

I usually recognize that immediately on a piano because of the behavior of the activity, too straight and at the same time unbalanced, but on the recordings I can get confused easily, I find.

Weyian you are progressing at the speed of light (of sound I may say wink . Let me suggest to you both that when recording the 5ths or the 4ths you sequence them in the same order than the temperament. That would make it easier for all of us to find the relations.
What do you think Alfredo ? chromatic sequence may be used later.

Also, the M6th are very useful . May be you could record 6 notes in sequence from the beginning of the temperament, then 7 , etc.

I understand well you are working on 4ths, 5ths and octaves (the octaves begin to be quite good and you are hearing and thinking "structurally" which is what is necessary.

Once the basic reasoning is obtained, you can tune directly the sequence, as mistakes are more easily corrected when more notes/intervals arrive , for instance the A3 F# sixth give yet a first idea of whenever the precedent intervals are good or not.

Congratulations on your tuning lever precision BTW That is amazing to follow your advancement.


Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 10:00 AM

Yes, Isaac, once again you have read into my thoughts! You see, perhaps we both are from a different planet ;-) but yours is still... faster!

I did think of asking Weiyan for the sequence exact order recording, then I read "G4 is the last note" he tunes... that is why I wrote ..."In a while, when you are ready, I'll tell you more about the sequence."

How nice to see that you too are "there".

About 6ths, it is precisely as you say, A3-F#4 gives the first FBI measure and relates this FBI with the previous SBI's; we evaluate that 6th out of its tension, taste, flavor, I'd say intonation... I'm sure we'll get there too.

I open all Weiyan's recs (M3's, 5ths and 4ths) and play the intervals jumping from one window to another one, so I can follow many relations at once, like if I was to play.

I'll be back soon,

A l f r e d o
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 11:15 AM

Isaac sent me the tuning procedure.

A4->A3
A3->D4
A3->E4
E4->B3
B3->F#4
F#4->C#4
C#4->G#4
G#4->D#4
D#4->A#3
A#3->F4
F4->C4
C4->G4

It usually leave the gap in C4-G4/D4-G4

In the procedure sheet, after tuning F#4, check with sixth. I think its A3-F#4. Should you tell me how to use this checking?

Thank you.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 12:34 PM

Weiyan, please do not feel sorry, I am very happy when I can be of help, and your desires and efforts may help others too. So… we may all be happy.

Thirds:

A3-C#4: about 5 bps - too sweet, should beat faster, more tense;
A#3-D4: nice/a bit too fast - you can hear it is sensibly faster than previous;
B3-D#4: nice - very similar (slower) to previous - that difference is advanced stuff;

C4-E4: almost Ok - slower than previous;
C#4-F4: almost Ok - you hear it is sensibly faster than previous;
D4-F#4: too slow - compare with A3-C#, you hear it is similar - you want it similar to previous;
D#4-G4: not too bad;

E4-G#4: leave these out.
F4-A4: ==

Let's consider 5ths (it is a very important "harmonic" interval and you said A3-E4 is difficult, let's work on difficulties first):

1 - A3-E4: you can hear some movement… but… C4-E4 is quite nice, very little slow;
2 - A#3-F4: nice - but C#-F4 is a bit tense (too wide) - compare C-E and C#-F4, C-E about 8 bps, C#-F4 is beating as a flow, not countable;
3 - B3-F#4: too much movement, check D4-F#4, slower (sweeter) than C#-F4…
4 - C4-G4: nice - check D#4-G4, nice:
5 - C#4-G#4: too much movement, check E-G#, nice
6 - D4-A4: it moves too much.

- . - . - . -

After your corrections.

Your analysis was correct! You have improved C4-E4 and D4-G#4; at this stage, refine the M3's similarities: A3-C#4 is too slow; C#4-F4 (too fast)//D4-F#4 (slow) these are too different.

Perhaps A3 can go down (in pitch), so A3-E4 gets closer to narrow-just and A3-C#4 gets faster;
Perhaps D4 down, so A3-C#4 and A3#-D4 get more similar and D4-F#4 gets wider (faster);
Perhaps A#3 up, so A#3-F4 gets narrow and A#3-D4 more similar to neighbors;
Perhaps C4 down, so improving C-E and C-G.

As Isaac said, you have done a great job. Now, also move on above A4… use octaves (almost-just // on the wide side) and 5ths (almost-just \\ on the narrow side). From F4-C5 up… go for octaves (almost-just // on the wide side) and aurally beat-less 5ths.

I see you have posted, I'll reply later.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 11:29 PM

Thank you.

Excitintg! Two weeks before, I even don't know how to hear beat. I couldn't believe I could move a pure fifth narrow little to beat 0.5bps. Issac can give witness.

Try climb up to A6 to day.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/12/12 01:43 AM


Hi Weiyan,

It is good that you go up the scale, give your ears (and pins in the middle octave) some rest.

Perhaps you have a brake and can read this.

A3 and C#5 give you a 10th. You go up the scale and you can listen to the chromatic 10ths progression (ccompare beats), so that you can refine your aural skill for FBI's.

Evaluate beats, and also try to distinguish other intervals issues, like tension (low/high) or taste-flavor (sweet/acid).

Have a nice day, a.c.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/12/12 06:24 AM

Sorry haven't tuned today.

I have a criminal slander case.

The police opened a file of a man use an private Email as witness to accuse me slander. It's strange here slander is criminal case, use private email as witness is super terrible. For example, I send email to Issac back mouth Someone. Then Issac forward to Someone. Someone use the email to accuse me. Police may charge me with this email. Nearly no freedom here. I go to relate party to complain and have appoint with a regional Councillor tomorrow noon.

So sad.

Sorry for out topic.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/12/12 07:05 AM

Hello weyian I am sorry to read that. i am unsure I get it all. The privacy seem to be a different concept than I thought but seem to me that there is attack to ors by forwarding a private mail.
I hope. it will turn to a good end.

All the best.c
Isaac
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/12/12 09:38 AM

Issac,

Thank you. Sorry for don't further reply any matter about my legal case. I don't want to spam this thread. I post my case here to let others know I still working at CHAS.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/12/12 11:58 AM


Hi Weiyan,

I too am very sorry to hear that. Stay calm, things will hopefully get fixed.

Missing your birds... Keep in touch,

Alfredo
.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/12/12 05:33 PM


I would like to reach you, Weiyan, with my best wishes for tomorrow's meeting.

Chinese folk music - Red River (pipa solo), Liu Fang concert live 刘芳琵琶‬

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QfjG9V4-zE
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/12/12 08:29 PM

Good morning.

Haven't heard Chinese music for tens years. Liu Fang had expressed a Chinese heart with Pipa.



This a saying of Confucius about music, hand written by me with round brush.

Start today's journey.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/13/12 02:37 AM

Hi friends,

This is today's freshly baked crack potter.

Sorry for its raining today, so no much birds whistle.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-13-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-13-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-13-june-2012
A#3-D#4, D#4-G#4 FAST
C4-F3 Slow
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-13-june-2012
A#3-F4 Slow
A#4-G#4 Fast

Had correction after recording. Sorry for no record.
The wrong beating mostly due to pin setting problem.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-f3-g-4-13-june-2012
Octaves F3-C#4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-d4-g-4-13-june-2012
Octaves D4-G#4

Alfredo asked me to tune the octaves up. Sorry, I tune up and down, not followed the instruction strictly. Its strange tune the octave before the temperament is OK. Its magic that when tuning the octave, the errors in temperament are enlarged and easily be fixed.

Weiyan's naive tips today:

Move before the potter is crack. Then crack it from outside.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/13/12 09:12 AM

Just tune the octaves down to C1.

Its interesting to tune by fifth.

For example:
Tune A3->A2
Tune C3->A2 from narrow side, until there is marginal beat. The octave is ready.

After tuning the octaves, test by 10ths, they are nice and consistence. Test by chords, the voice is open.

OMG, some chords are sour. Actually some thirds out of control. Still take some more time to practice. The pin setting is next target.

Why its easy to crack? I found that a very slight crack in A3-A4 octave, the crack is enlarged in octaves. Fortunately, its easy to amend. Its easy to locate the crack.

Aflredo didn't tell me the procedure explicitly. Yesterday instruct me to tune the octaves, tune the fifth marginal narrow. After hours practice octaves, I get what you said. You seems a great teacher who never give explicit instruction, just let the student to discover it. How amazing.

I had asked Issac why call it pre-tuning instead temperament. Issac didn't give me an answer. Its better to let me discover the answer. After days of practice, I try to sum up my impression of CHAS.

For CHAS doesn't have temperament concept as ET do. In ET tuning, tune and fine tune temperament octave, then extend to octaves. Use this concept in CHAS is disaster.

In CHAS, all 88 notes is a temperament. Pre-tune A3-A4. When the progressions near OK, tune octaves. If fifth and octave cannot reconcile, there is a crack. Amend the crack.

Good night.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/13/12 05:25 PM


Hi Weiyan,

It will be evening in Honk Kong when I will be able to reply. Your hand-written saying is very nice, could you translate that saying by Confucius?

Now at yours it is almost... Good morning, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/13/12 08:31 PM

Good morning.

Quote:
子與人歌而善,必使反之,而後和之。

The good fellowship of Confucius.
When the Master was in company with a person who was singing, if he sang well, he would make him repeat the song, while he accompanied it with his own voice.
http://www.cnculture.net/ebook/jing/sishu/lunyu_en/07.html


This may be the most abused, most misinterpreted Confucius saying. Music is the second of Confucius' six subjects in education.

Quote:
The Six Arts formed the basis of education in ancient Chinese culture. During the Zhou Dynasty (1122–256 BCE), students were required to master the "liù yì" (六藝) (Six Arts):
Rites (禮)
Music (樂)
Archery (射)
Charioteering (御)
Calligraphy (書)
Mathematics (数)
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/14/12 03:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Just tune the octaves down to C1.

Its interesting to tune by fifth.

For example:
Tune A3->A2
Tune C3->A2 from narrow side, until there is marginal beat. The octave is ready.

After tuning the octaves, test by 10ths, they are nice and consistence. Test by chords, the voice is open.

OMG, some chords are sour. Actually some thirds out of control. Still take some more time to practice. The pin setting is next target.

Why its easy to crack? I found that a very slight crack in A3-A4 octave, the crack is enlarged in octaves. Fortunately, its easy to amend. Its easy to locate the crack.

Aflredo didn't tell me the procedure explicitly. Yesterday instruct me to tune the octaves, tune the fifth marginal narrow. After hours practice octaves, I get what you said. You seems a great teacher who never give explicit instruction, just let the student to discover it. How amazing.

I had asked Issac why call it pre-tuning instead temperament. Issac didn't give me an answer. Its better to let me discover the answer. After days of practice, I try to sum up my impression of CHAS.

For CHAS doesn't have temperament concept as ET do. In ET tuning, tune and fine tune temperament octave, then extend to octaves. Use this concept in CHAS is disaster.

In CHAS, all 88 notes is a temperament. Pre-tune A3-A4. When the progressions near OK, tune octaves. If fifth and octave cannot reconcile, there is a crack. Amend the crack.

Good night.





Hello Weyan, I like your comments there..

Sorry about the pre-tuning, it is a mean to anticipate the instrument settling, it uses the way the piano is reacting to more tension, that is why intervals are enlarged more than what is expected in the end.

When using that process , at each tuning you developp a feel for the settling of the piano, something that is computed by the ETD in PR mode and then be done by ear (you gain a better knowledge of the process, which differs in the bass and the high treble, hence the strip muting of only the mediums and the beginning of the treble.

It oblige the tuner to learn something new in terms of pitch appreciation but provide a way to work in one (longer) pass.

Thank you for your writings, that is refreshing.

I will listen later to your records but the little bit I heard let me say : "that is yet better than the last time..."

I recorded me unreasoning and correcting a vertical while going from 445 to 442 Hz (I forget to record since I finished the "pre tuning" ) I should edit the file as it is long (1 hour) because I work on tone quality , that slow the process.

http://soundcloud.com/olek-4/vertical-piano-atlas-unisoning

Best wishes

Isaac
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/14/12 07:07 AM

Hi Issac,

Sorry for the link is broken.

Better to ignore previous records. Tomorrows far better than yesterday's.

Today tune the whole piano. The voice is very open, may be too open. Tomorrow tune again and post some record.

The procedure I used to tune octave:

A4-A5:
Tune A5 from D5 to marginal beat at narrow side. Then check A4-A5 if it beats.

A3-A2:
Tune A2 to E3 to marginal beat at narrow side. Then check A3-A2.
Bass tune very nice. Parallel 8th is very open.

Also check with 10th.

Not sure if this method OK.

EDIT:
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/burgmuller114-june-2012
This record can give an impression of the tuning.

BYE.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/14/12 09:36 AM


Hi Weiyan,

Thank you for translating Confucius' saying, his depth is sound and silent. You have also added two words to my vocabulary: "jargon" and "amend". uoy knahT.

Let's see your fourths, where you did Self C.: "A#3-D#4, D#4-G#4 FAST, C4-F3(?4?) Slow"

A3-D4: about 2 bps, too wide
A#3-D#4: about 3.5 bps, too much, B3-D# is a bit sour, you were correct
B3-E4: almost Ok
C4-F4: almost just (beat-less), you were correct
C#4-F#4: about 8 bps, too much
D4-G4: about 2.5 bps, too much
D#4-G#4: about double the above, too much, you were correct
E4-A4: nice, a bit slow

Your base:

A3-A4: good, a bit shy, make it wider, you can always get it down (with a forte blow?)
A3-D4: perhaps wrong side?
D4-A4: too moving, wrong side?
A3-E4: nice!
E4-A4: shy, weak, make it more nervous;

Thirds:

A3-C#4: better than last time, still a bit slow
A#3-D4: slow, loose, sweet, slower than previous
B3-D#4: fast, very tense, check A#3-D#4 (too wide), perhaps D#4 must go down?

C4-E4: about 3.5 bps, even slower than A#3-D#4, too slow
C#4-F4: very tense, too much, beats are in a flow
D4-F#4: nice, tense-harmonious and singing
D#4-G4: sour, check D4-G4 (too wide)

E4-G#4: a bit slow-nice
F4-A4: nice, check C4-F4, raise both pitches
F#4-A#4: I usually tune A#4 comparing the previous 4th, 5th and octave
G4-B4: too sweet - here 3rds are savoury, a bit salty

Project:

G4 down (in pitch)

A#3, C#4, D4, F#4, A4 up, raise their pitch

Check 5ths:

1 - A3-E4: nice
2 - A#3-F4: nice, if you raise A#3 (see project), you raise also F, so you can correct C4-F4
3 - B3-F#4: too still, B3 up so B3-D#4 gets less wide
4 - C4-G4: too still, too just, leave a slow/late opening, G4 down (see project)
5 - C#4-G#4: too early movement, about 1 bps, perhaps wrong side?
6 - D4-A4: make it more still, less activity, A4 and D4 up (see project)

You have written very nice things, I'll be back later, I enjoyed birds singing.

Alf.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/14/12 09:51 AM

HEllo Weyian :

Yes the tuning was so long it could not be uploaded or treated, I dont know.

Here is a part of it :http://soundcloud.com/olek-4/unisons-corrections

http://soundcloud.com/olek-4/unisons-corrections

Sorry I will write later...
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/14/12 10:22 AM

Hi Afredo,

Thank you.

The A3-D4 at wrong side. I found out it later.

"amend" is to modify for the better. This may be wrong wording.

"jargon" is bottle neck.

Hi Issac,

Thank you for the sound file.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/14/12 05:08 PM


Hi Weiyan, I listened to the recs below:

..."Had correction after recording. Sorry for no record.
The wrong beating mostly due to pin setting problem.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-f3-g-4-13-june-2012
Octaves F3-C#4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-d4-g-4-13-june-2012
Octaves D4-G#4

- . - . - . -

Perhaps you yourself can notice that some intervals need to be corrected. Let me know.

..."Alfredo asked me to tune the octaves up. Sorry, I tune up and down, not followed the instruction strictly."...

No problem. Do you have the Flow-chart (pdf.) of the sequence already?

..."Its strange tune the octave before the temperament is OK. Its magic that when tuning the octave, the errors in temperament are enlarged and easily be fixed."...

Yes, enlarging the mid-range, all intervals reflect - step after step - their individual chromatic tensions, showing their long-distance coherence.

..."Weiyan's naive tips today:

Move before the potter is crack. Then crack it from outside."

Thank you.

Alf.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/15/12 04:17 AM

Good afternoon.

These are today's practice session.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-15-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-june-2012
C#4-F4 seems too slow

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-june-2012
A#3-D#4, D4-G4 too fast
E4-A4 seems very fast in the record, but listen to the piano, it seems OK.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-june-2012
G#4 too flat, had been raised after recording.

Use only 1.5 hours to tune these 12 notes. Among 1.5 hours, slept one hour.


Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/15/12 04:47 AM

These is today's corrections.

Please ignore previous recordings. This is the final submission of today.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-a-15-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-a-15-june-2012
A#4-D4 need to tune faster
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-a-15-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-a-15-june-2012

After days frustration, things become easy.

In 8 o'clock evening, complete tuning all octaves and unisons.
Below is a test playing.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/burgmuller-15-june-2012

This yesterday's test playing:
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/burgmuller114-june-2012

Thank you.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/15/12 09:37 AM


Hi Weiyan, good evening.

From the base:

A3-A4: OK- too still, up a little bit
A3-D4: too wide
D4-A4: too much noise, up A4 and down (forte blow?) D4
A3-E4: too narrow
E4-A4: a bit wide, up E4 (and A4)

Fifths:

A3-E4: it moves too soon, it is a bit too narrow, check C4-E4… it is Ok, remember this;
A#3-F4: too narrow, about 2.5 bps, check C#4-F4, too slow, too sweet, 6 or 7 bps, more typical for F3-A3//F#3-A#3 (that area)

B3-F#4: nice, check D4-F#4… nice
C4-G4: too narrow, about 1.5 bps, check D#4-G4… nice, remember;
C#4-G#4: like above, check E4-G#4… Ok… try to remember (*)
D4-A4: make it closer to just (see the base)

Project:

Up E4, check C4-E4…, up C4, check (4th)… up F4… solve A#3-F, up G4 (remember D#4-G4?)

Forths:

A3-D4: too fast, down D4, check A#3-D4, too slow… down A#3, in direction of A#3-F4 (maybe ok? see project)
A#3-D#4: wrong side? check B3-D#4… nice! check D#4-G#4… fast, up D#4 (join G4, remember?)... down C#4 (*)(remember?), solve A3-C#4 (a little bit too sour (fast)) and C#4-G4 and C#4-F4.

The deeper we go, the thiner the adjustments will get. Control your body, relax your ears, breathe natural (calm). Enlarge your temperament, yes, and follow chromatic intervals coherence.

Please, let me know about two questions (in my previous post).

I'll be travelling until Tuesday, have a nice weekend.

a.c.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/15/12 10:32 AM

Hi Alfredo,

Thank you. Hope you have a nice weekend.

Sorry for missed the two questions. Its hard to find out it for the posts are move fast.

For thirds I am not so sure. I may confuse too fast with too slow. Could you post a thirds progression for reference?

I get some hints of hearing fifth: count on the start of move.

Try to correct in the weekend.

Bye.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/18/12 10:36 AM

Hi friends, this is my today's tuning.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-18-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-18-june-2012
D4-F#4 sounds strange. Don'e know how to soft it.
E4-G#4 seems no beat.
C4-E4 too sweet
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-18-june-2012
A3-D4 too fast
B3-E4, C4-F4, D4-G4 too slow
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-18-june-2012
A3-E4, C4-G4, C#4-G#4 Too fast

Raise E4, Correct B3-E4, C4-E4, A3-E4
Raise G4,
Raise G#4

Will try correction tomorrow.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/19/12 03:29 AM

Old Post...

Hi Weiyan,

I've copied the post (below) of mine (10th of June) because, in what I wrote, there is an error. As an exercise, you may re-read it and spot the error.

#1911375 - June 10, 2012 02:56 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Weiyan]
alfredo capurso Online content

Thank you, Weiyan.

You noticed C#-G# beating, very good. It is beating because it is a very narrow 5th.

You can look at that in two ways:

- G# is too low from just (in pitch); in this case you raise G# closer to almost-just 5th;
- C# is too high from just (in pitch); in this case you lower C# (closer to almost-just 5th);

I noticed the 4th C#-F# non-beating (it is too just): in this case if you lower C# you can adjust (at least) two intervals: C#-G# gets (correct) wide and C#-F# gets less narrow (less beating - closer to just).

Please notice the chain of effect (events?): look at point 2 (A#3-F4), C#-F (as a M3) is Ok; if you lower C# you have to (must) lower also F.

In general, that is what you need to develop in time, the ability to visualize the chain of effects for every move.

In general, evaluate the effect of each move and try to improve (at least) two intervals with one move.

Always ask yourself: what happens (to the other intervals) if I modify this interval? You can do also this exercise (*) in abstract, even reasoning with yourself, without moving anything.

Regards, a.c.

(*) Edit: so doing, you will be able to draw the "intervals relation map".

- . - . - . -

Down to your recent posting,

The base:

A3-A4: too still, it want that to be wider, you want to hear a growing slow movement after 1.5/2 seconds, A3 down or A4 up;
A3-E4: too narrow,
E4-A4: Ok
A3-D4: too close to just (no beat)
D4-A4: too close to just (no movement)

Fifths:

A3-E4: too narrow, check C4-E4… too sweet
(2) A#3-F4: too narrow, check C#-F4… too sweet, make it wider
B3-F#4: nice, check D4-F#4… fast, hmmm… D4 was too low? (see the base)
C4-G4: too narrow, about 2 bps, check D#4-G4… no beating, up G4 you improve two intervals
C#4-G#4: nice, check E4-G#4… no tension… hmmm...
D4-A4: see base, check F4-A4… nice-sweet… up D4 and A4

Forths:

A3-D4: see base, check A#3-C4… sweet, slow, you already know D4 must go up
A#-D#: about 2 bps, check B3-D#4… Ok-little sour, perhaps perhaps D#4 must go down? see above D#4-G4
B3-E4: too just, you already know about E4
C4-F4: too just (no beating), up F4… you repair (2)
C#4-F#4: hmmm… check A3-C#4… nice (almost Ok), check D4-F#4, check C#4-F4, hmmm…
D4-G4: Ok, up D4 and G4
D#4-G#4: inverted?

Yourself-critique:


http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-18-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-18-june-2012
1- D4-F#4 sounds strange. Don'e know how to soft it.
2- E4-G#4 seems no beat.
3- C4-E4 too sweet
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-18-june-2012
4- A3-D4 too fast
5- B3-E4, C4-F4, D4-G4 too slow
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-18-june-2012
6- A3-E4, C4-G4, C#4-G#4 Too fast

Raise E4, Correct B3-E4, C4-E4, A3-E4
Raise G4,
Raise G#4

- . - . - . -

1- you are correct, up D4
2- yes
3- yes
4- non correct
5- Ok, listen again to D4-G4
6- Ok, listen again to C#4-G#4

Very good SC, Weiyan, good job! When ever, listen to your M3 progression and try (exercise) to spot large or "fast-slow-inverted" beat rates.

Have a nice day,a.c.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/19/12 11:29 AM

Hi Alfredo,
Thank you.

I am still learning to hear fast beats. Sometimes confused too slow with too fast.

Left the piano untouched today. Will do the correction tomorrow.

Good night.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/20/12 08:54 AM

Hi,

This is today's tuning session. Correct tempered at wrong side. Improve pin setting.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-20-june-2012
Octave seems too wide. A3-D4 should faster,

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-june-2012
A3-C#4 too sweet
C#4-F4 too tense


http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-20-june-2012
C#4-A#4 too fast
Raise C#4, correct A3-C#4, C#4-F4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-20-june-2012
A#3-F4 move too soon
Raise F-4, since A#4 raised, raise F-4 more than A#4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-20-june-2012
Finally tuned some octaves, E3 to A#3, to learn octaves at the same time.

Will finish whole piano tomorrow. Friday visit China no tuning. Hope this weekend has a good sounding piano.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/21/12 06:21 AM


Hi Weiyan,

The base:

A3-A4: Ok- (little too wide) - if you tune little higher than 440 you can always lower A4
A3-D4: too just, (make it close to 1 bps)
D4-A4: inverted?
A3-E4: very good
E4-A4: little wide (due to A4)

Fifths:

A3-E4: see base
A#3-F4: too just (no beat)
B3-F#4: a bit narrow
C4-G4: beating a lot - inverted?
C#4-G#4: too just
D4-A4: different from your base, perhaps something has moved

Thirds:

A3-C#4: slow
A#3-D4: slower than previous, D4 up (see base)
B3-D#4: Ok, sweet, compare with A3-C#4, make it more similar (otherwise the progression is inverted) perhaps B3 is too high?
C4-E4: nice, you want it a little bit faster
C#4-F4: fast, check A#3-F4, put F4 down? put A#3 up?
D4-F#4: nice, check B3-F#4, if you raise D4 you raise also F#4, so D4-F#4 does not change and you improve B3-F#4
D#4-G4: sweet, up G4, improve C4-G4, it was not inverted.
E4-G#4: Ok, put C#4 up
F4-A4: Ok, sweet, perhaps A4 has gone down

Fourths:

A3-D4: see base
A#-D#: too just,
B3-E4: fast
C4-F4: slow
C#4-F#4: fast
D4-G4: a bit fast
D#4-G#4: too just
E4-A4: something has moved

Your S.C.:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-20-june-2012
1 - Octave seems too wide. A3-D4 should faster,

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-june-2012
2 - A3-C#4 too sweet
3 - C#4-F4 too tense

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-20-june-2012
4 - C#4-A#4 too fast
Raise C#4, correct A3-C#4, C#4-F4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-20-june-2012
5 - A#3-F4 move too soon
6 - Raise F-4, since A#4 raised, raise F-4 more than A#4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-20-june-2012
Finally tuned some octaves, E3 to A#3, to learn octaves at the same time.

1 - correct
2 - correct -
3 - yes
4 - yes, perfect
5 - non correct
6 - yes, you meant A#3.

Very good, now you are improving too fast! :-)

Do you have the sequence flow-chart? Now you could start developing and comparing 6ths.

Buona serata,

Alfredo
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/21/12 11:02 AM

Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

Issac had send me the tuning procedure. After tuning F#4 from B3, compare sixths as suggest in the chart. I don't know how to use sixths.

This is today's tuning. Need to improve hammer skill. I found its difficult to move a hairy little. Pin setting is still big trouble.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-21-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-21-june-2012
C4-E4 too slow, difficult to correct it.
D#4-G5 seems too slow, not sure.
C#4-F4 should be slower
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-21-june-2012
C4-F4 too fast
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-21-june-2012
C4-G4 too fast

Lower F4, improve C#4-F4, C4-F4
Raise G4, improve C4-G4, D#4-G4(if its too slow)

Good night.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/22/12 09:51 AM

Hi Weiyan,

..."Issac had send me the tuning procedure. After tuning F#4 from B3, compare sixths as suggest in the chart. I don't know how to use sixths."...

I evaluate the first 6th available, A3-F#4, because it tells me (only by my own relative sensation) how the FBI curve is being shaped, how it originates right at the beginning.

I want that 6th to be fast but pleasant, tense but not too nervous, not sour, inspiring-tense, inclined-tense, joy-tense, hope-tense, proposal-tense, encouraging-tense, it must recall proud and best intensions, it must smell like believed-deserved success, like true emotion. Of course, this is what that 6th can evoke me, but you can start understanding what it would evoke you, trying to relate your other senses and your power of abstraction.

From the sequence flowchart you will see that after A#3-F4... I tune G4, obviously from D4; then C4, which has to work all around, as a M3 (C4-E4), as a 5th and 4th. The reason why I do not tune C4 from F4, and G4 from C4, is that I prefer to go back to my base, by using D4 as a reference, in the idea that I can reduce multiple (previous) approximations. It also gives me the feeling of "meeting" F4 while coming from the "other" direction, as that is for me the correct way to shape a whole, two parts that join together.

..."This is today's tuning. Need to improve hammer skill. I found its difficult to move a hairy little. Pin setting is still big trouble."...

I think you are right, hammer skill takes time… for wide intervals, use the forte blow for "hairy little" moves, so you can also stabilize your centre string; for narrow intervals, first get to just (from above), then play a forte blow, so the fifth gets narrow and (hopefully) more stable.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-21-june-2012

A3-A4: nice
A3-D4: little too wide
D4-A4: little too narrow, make it almost no-movement
A3-E4: nice
E4-A4: nice

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-21-june-2012
1 - C4-E4 too slow, difficult to correct it.
2 - D#4-G5 seems too slow, not sure.
3 - C#4-F4 should be slower


Thirds - please notice that progression: Ok-fast // Slow // nice-fast // very slow // fast // nice-slow // nice // nice // slow.

Project: put down A#3, C4, D4, D#4, F4

Your S.C:

1 - see project, I compared C4 4th and 5th;
2 - yes, D#4 is too high (in pitch), make D#4-G5 very similar to E4-A4;
3 - yes, F4 wants to go down

Very good Weiyan, today I have to stop here. In general, start spotting the worse interval, like C4-E4, and relax your ear… I think you can hear a lot now and you need some (physiological) time to settle your perceptions deep down and order your actions. Soon you will be able to compare 6ths too and choose which geometry you want to "play"... then it gets even nicer.

Buona serata,
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/23/12 09:03 AM

Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

I tuned C4 from F4, G4 from C4. Will try another way.

Will learn the sense of sixths. I think I can sense thirds and LBIs.

Next week will begin from this tuning. Hope it not move too much in these days playing.

Quote:
Buona serata,

What's this?

Have nice weekend.

Weiyan
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/23/12 09:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

I tuned C4 from F4, G4 from C4. Will try another way.

Will learn the sense of sixths. I think I can sense thirds and LBIs.

Next week will begin from this tuning. Hope it not move too much in these days playing.

Quote:
Buona serata,


What's this?

Have nice weekend.

Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

"Buona serata" means "have a nice evening".

良好的星期天, is this Buona domenica? a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/24/12 10:40 PM

Good morning,

Today have business so finished tuning this morning. Just correct the notes suggested by Aflredo.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-25-june-2012

良好的星期天, is this Buona domenica? a.c.
This is "Nice Sunday" or "Good Sunday". Chinese seldom use this phrase.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/24/12 11:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Good morning,

Today have business so finished tuning this morning. Just correct the notes suggested by Aflredo.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-25-june-2012

良好的星期天, is this Buona domenica? a.c.
This is "Nice Sunday" or "Good Sunday". Chinese seldom use this phrase.

AC# beats very fast and A#D very slow. This is not ET.

Kees
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/25/12 02:53 PM


Hi Weiyan,

I could not make it earlier today.

If you like you can compare your thirds 21th June/25th June

A3-C#4: Ok
A#3-D4: improved
B3-D#4: too slow, check A#3-D#4… too just, check B3-F#4, to narrow

C4-E4: improved, make it a little faster,
C#4-F4: improved, it is still a bit sweet
D4-F#4: improved,
D#4-G4: Not improved, a bit salty/sour, check D4-G4… too wide…

E4-G#4: improved progression with F4-A4
F4-A4: improved

Your base (25th june):

A3-A4: Ok (to start with), it is a little wide, you would remember this during your tuning
A3-D4: too wide, if you put down D4, you put down also A#3, check A#3-F… too narrow, so you can put down A#3
D4-A4: Ok, because D4 and A4 are both high (in pitch)
A3-E4: Ok
E4-A4: Ok, little wide, but you remember A4

Evaluate thirds progression: Ok // Slow-sweet // like previous-sweet // sweet // nice // nice // fast // sweet-check C#-G#… up G# // nice.

Project: Put down A#3, B3, C4, D4, up G#, check F4 and remember A4.

Have a nice day, a.c.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/26/12 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Good morning,

Today have business so finished tuning this morning. Just correct the notes suggested by Aflredo.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-25-june-2012

良好的星期天, is this Buona domenica? a.c.
This is "Nice Sunday" or "Good Sunday". Chinese seldom use this phrase.

AC# beats very fast and A#D very slow. This is not ET.

Kees


Thank you for reminding that two thirds still not tuned.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/26/12 09:38 PM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hi Weiyan,

I could not make it earlier today.

If you like you can compare your thirds 21th June/25th June

A3-C#4: Ok
A#3-D4: improved
B3-D#4: too slow, check A#3-D#4… too just, check B3-F#4, to narrow

C4-E4: improved, make it a little faster,
C#4-F4: improved, it is still a bit sweet
D4-F#4: improved,
D#4-G4: Not improved, a bit salty/sour, check D4-G4… too wide…

E4-G#4: improved progression with F4-A4
F4-A4: improved

Your base (25th june):

A3-A4: Ok (to start with), it is a little wide, you would remember this during your tuning
A3-D4: too wide, if you put down D4, you put down also A#3, check A#3-F… too narrow, so you can put down A#3
D4-A4: Ok, because D4 and A4 are both high (in pitch)
A3-E4: Ok
E4-A4: Ok, little wide, but you remember A4

Evaluate thirds progression: Ok // Slow-sweet // like previous-sweet // sweet // nice // nice // fast // sweet-check C#-G#… up G# // nice.

Project: Put down A#3, B3, C4, D4, up G#, check F4 and remember A4.

Have a nice day, a.c.


Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

Bad good luck happened. My phone became brick last Saturday, so I have chance to change for a Windows phone. The computer is infected so I had chance to show off my computer ability to my son. I can tune a piano only two thirds not correct in two weeks intensive learning.

These days had little bit burn out. Will resume practice tomorrow.

Sorry for no birds whistle today.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/29/12 02:05 AM

Hi,

This is today's practice session. Just corrected notes as suggested by Alfred except C4. Had move C4 up and down, finally back to original. Move C4 destroy its relationship with F4 and F5.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-29-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-june-2012

Thank you.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/29/12 11:53 AM


Hi Weiyan,

About the base, those intervals are very similar to the other recording. This time I try to be more precise:

A3-A4: Ok (to start with), it is a little wide, about 1 beat every 2 sec., get the feeling that it is opening/swelling after 2 sec., no real beating…
A3-D4: too wide, that is about 2 bps, try to make it 1 bps
D4-A4: Ok, because D4 and A4 are both high (in pitch)
A3-E4: Ok... careful because it tends to be too narrow
E4-A4: Ok, little wide, but you remember A4

Thirds progression: // Ok // Slower than previous // improved // too sweet- C4 wants to go down // nice-sweet // nice // improved // improved // nice //.

Fourths:

A3-D4: see base
A#3-D#4: too just, two moves... A#3-D4 is slow, D4 is high so...A#3 must go down, check A#3-F4... too narrow!
B3-E4: Ok-little fast
C4-F4: slow… C4 can go down?… check C4-G4… too narrow, put down C4 improving also C3-E3
C#4-F#4: Ok
D4-G4: too just, D4 down
D#4-G#4: too fast, D#4 up, in direction of A#3-D#4
E4-A4: Ok, see base… A4 down a bit

In the next days I'll be traveling for work, so we will have to wait for sometime. In the meantime, enlarge your mid-octave and develop your ear for no-beating 12ths, the first being A3-E5. Make octaves very very similar, they do open "more", chromatically progressive, but... very very slowly. Make sure that intervals are on the right side, and do not rush with your hammer, first focalize on the beat, then move your hammer.

You are doing well (in a short time); work "in time" Weiyan, and enjoy your breathing and your sounds.

Best wishes,

Alfredo
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/30/12 03:57 AM

Hi Alfredo,

Hope you have a success business trip.

I think I understand the octave more now. The higher partial appear after a short while, may be 1.5 - 2 seconds.

Its happy to go to the beatless 12th. Its a new challenge.

Thank you.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/04/12 11:18 AM

Sorry for making Alfredo busy enough. He's in business trip now.

This is today's practice. Retuned whole piano and rasied 10 cents. May be its too hot that the pitch dropped.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-4-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-4-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-4-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-4-july-2012

Thank you.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/10/12 11:58 AM

Still practicing.

The octave may be little bit wider.

Tune the 12th pure. The mistake in temperament is reflected in octave when a note cannot tune pure 12th.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-10-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-10-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-10-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-10-july-2012

Thank you.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/17/12 01:54 PM


http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-10-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-10-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-10-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-10-july-2012

Hi Weiyan,

You have done a nice job, let's consider your last posting.

The base:

A3-A4: Ok, perhaps A4 can be a little wider…
A3-D4: little slow
D4-A4: Ok, D4 and A4 can be a little higher (in pitch)
A3-E4: Very nice
E4-A4: Ok, A4 can be a little higher

Thirds progression: // Ok // Ok- a bit fast // slow // Ok- a bit fast // slow // nice-fast // Ok // Ok - too tense/salty // Ok

So, B3-D#4 and C#4-F need to be improved.

Check B3-E4... too just, B3 can go down. Check A#3-D#4… too fast, raise A#3 (improve A#3-F4, too just).

C#4-F: F4 up? Check C4-F4... too just, raise F4... and A4.

Check fourths:

A3-D4: little slow
A#3-D#4: fast, 2+ bps
B3-E4: Ok, too just
C4-F4: too just
C#4-F#4: fast, check B3-F#4 (B3 must go down), check D4-F#4… F#4 down a bit
D4-G4: Ok
D#4-G#4: fast, check C#4-G#4… reverse? Put down G#4 also improves E4-G#4
E4-A4: Ok, you remember A4.

All together you have improved a lot, Weiyan, and I hope you can hear those two slow 3rds (compare them and, if you wish, let me know) and G#4.

You wrote: ..."The octave may be little bit wider."...

Yes, you were right and you seem you are able to perceive also "fine" issues.

..."Tune the 12th pure. The mistake in temperament is reflected in octave when a note cannot tune pure 12th."...

Correct, like 10ths, 15ths and 17ths... 12ths work as a good "meter" and as a confortable reference for the Pre-form tuning. Keep on thinking in terms of "whole" geometry and interweaving all intervals and... enjoy your tunings.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/20/12 06:51 AM

Thank you.

Retuned the piano with Verituner ET, so can't check the G#4. I tuned the whole piano with Verituner to compare the sounding of ET with CHAS. For chords in higher octaves, CHAS seems rather calm. THis may due to inverted fifth progression.

Retuned the piano again next week.

Have a nice weekend!
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/26/12 11:49 AM

Hi, this is my this week's tuning.

It seems G#4 beat at wide side easily.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-26-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-26-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-26-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-26-july-2012

Thank you.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/24/12 09:32 PM

Still working on better tuning.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/25/12 06:28 PM

Hi,

Now back from vacation.

Thank you, Weiyan, for sharing your route, whenever...

Regards, a.c.

Chas Tunings:
http://www.chas.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64&Itemid=44&lang=en

C.HA.S. Theory - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. - Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo - 2009, Italy:
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

Article by P.RI.ST.EM (Progetto Ricerche Storiche E Metodologiche) - University "Bocconi" - Professor Nicola Chiriano - Milano, 2010 - (Italian):
http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/30/12 12:44 AM

Thanks for the sharing. Great tuning and great pianist.

The D4-G4 seems very stretch.
D#4-G4 not sure too fast or too slow.
Its rather difficult to hear bit in 4th octave.

Is it possible to use F3-F4 octave?

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-30-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-30-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-30-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-30-aug-2012
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/30/12 04:04 AM

This is my second trial today. The last one totally mess.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas1-30-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds1-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths1-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths1-aug-2012
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/30/12 01:43 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Let's work on your last post (second trial).

The base: All these five intervals (below) sound too pure (too still/no movement/no beat). In particular:

A3-A4: Very "just" (you want A4 on the wide side)
A3-E4: Too close to just
E4-A4: As above
A3-D4: As above (you want D4 wide, very close to 1 bps)
D4-A4: As above

Now, if we were to think in terms of "one-single-key and few intervals" (within one-single-octave) we may perhaps accept those "just" intervals, but really we want all keys and all intervals (no matter which octave) to sound in tune. As a consequence of "just" intervals we would get other intervals that are sensibly far from just, so missing the harmoniousness of the whole.

Thirds:

A3-C#4: Too sweet (too slow beating)
A#3-D4: Better than previous, still slow
B3-D#4: Ok (notice that it is much faster than A#3-D4)
C4-E4: Ok (notice that it is sweeter than B3-D#4)
C#4-F4: Fast (much faster than C4-E4)
D4-F#4: Ok (sweeter/slower than C#4-F4)
D#4-G4: Little slow
E4-G#4: Ok...
F4-A4: Too sweet

Fourths:

A3-D4: See base
A#-D#: Too wide (almost 3 bps)
B3-E4: Little too wide (almost 2 bps)
C4-F4: Ok
C#4-F#4: Slow
D4-G4: Fast
D#4-G#4: Slow
E4-A4: See base

Apparently you have had to raise D#4 very much.

Fifths:

A3-E4: see base
A#3-F4: too just... F4 down, you improve C#4-F4; C4 down, improve C4-E4 (and also E4 needed to go down a bit)
B3-F#4: fast (about 2 bps), F#4 up, improves C#4-F#4 and D4-F#4
C4-G4: Ok, both can go down a bit (remember E4, C4-E4, and F4)
C#4-G#4: Ok, both up a bit, improve A3-C#4 and D#4-G#4
D4-A4: See base

And you would remember that A3 and E4 and D#4 need to go down a bit (in pitch).

From your second last post:

..."The D4-G4 seems very stretch.
D#4-G4 not sure too fast or too slow.
Its rather difficult to hear bit in 4th octave.

Is it possible to use F3-F4 octave?"...

To me, D4-G4 sounds inverted (G4 should go up), and D#4-G4 is too slow. In general, make sure that the five Base-intervals are on the right side. And yes, do experiment other sequences (perhaps of your own too) and the F3-F4 compass, in which case I'd get to F3 as fast as possible, so to avoid piling up approximations.

How are you doing with 6ths, 10ths and 12ths?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/30/12 11:47 PM

Before today's correction exercise, I take measure of yesterday's tuning.

I am using Verituner with Average stretch.

A3: +2.3
A#3: +1.3
B3: 1.8
C4: +3
C#4: +0.6
D4: +0.2
D#4: +4.5
E4: +3
F4: +3.5
F#4: +0.3
G4: +3.3
G#4: +4
A4: +1.8

A3-A4 not stretched.
A3(+2.3):E4(+3): The fifth is not narrow enough. Is this interval need narrower than ET fifth?

E4(+3):A4(+1.3), not wide enough

A3(+2.3):D4(+0.2), not wide enough

D4(+0.2):A4(+1.8), not narrow enough

The reading justify the above intervals are quieter in ET sense.

Sorry I don't know how to use sixths yet.

I only use tenths to tune bass notes. Should I tune the 12ths pure?

Thank you.
Tune for better harmony!
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/31/12 01:15 AM

Correction of Yesterday's tuning.

Its far from OK as I heard. I am begin to recognize thirds.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas1-30-aug-2012-1
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds1-31-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths1-31-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths1-31-aug-2012

This afternoon tune the octaves bass on this temperanment.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/31/12 06:25 PM

Hi Weiyan,

You wrote: ..."Its far from OK as I heard. I am begin to recognize thirds."...

You are right, it's not Ok but... it is important that you can realize that yourself. You may listen again to these last recordings and notice some "very different" intervals, related to three notes: C4, D#4 and G4. Try to compare intervals, and try to focus on large, very evident differences caused by those notes. And the M3rd D#4-G4 is not so bad only because both notes are very high (in pitch). Also E4 has gone down too much, in fact A3-E4 is too narrow (about 2 bps). Do not worry if sometime you do not get a satisfactory result, this is how we learn and... sometime we regress as well.

On your second last post:

..."The reading justify the above intervals are quieter in ET sense."...

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

..."Sorry I don't know how to use sixths yet."...

We can use M6ths like M3rds, comparing chromatic intervals and (their relative) beat-progressions; I also evaluate - aurally - their "taste", their "tension", whether it sounds "salty" (listen again to B3-D#4) or too "loose" (C4-E4). Start developing an idea of what 6ths can sound like, you can start from A3-F#4... then you will be able to compare A#3-G4, B3-G#4 and C4-A4.

..."I only use tenths to tune bass notes."...

Personally, I use 10ths also going up the scale, the first 10th being A3-C#5: that helps me evaluate the octaves (A#3-A#4 etc...) progressive stretch; A3-C#5 tells me the kind of curve I'm drawing while stretching octaves, until I get to the first 12th, A3-E5. From E5 up (and in general), 12ths are very "imperative" and yet easy to "evaluate". Going down the bass I use octaves, 4ths and 5ths and check with 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths.

..."Should I tune the 12ths pure?"...

Good question. Is "tuning" the tuning of... one interval? Hmmm... I do not think so. But if you find yourself far away from a pure 12th you may still improve your tuning. Chas 12ths beat (narrow) at a constant and very very slow beat-rate, but we may have good reasons for tuning pure or even wide 12ths, depending on the single piano's condition. Would you not regret having tuned "pure 12ths" if, at the end of your tuning, some 12ths were to sound flat?

As a general rule yes, try to stay very (very) close to pure 12ths.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/31/12 07:55 PM

Thank you.

A plentiful content. I am digesting it.

"The reading justify the above intervals are quieter in ET sense."
I feel its very close to ET. They both have same character: harmony color is same for all twelve keys.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/01/12 03:55 AM

Sixths is are helpful. Compared the progressiveness of sixths help to sort out some mistake.

Tune the whole piano, its un-playable. Tune again from temperament.

This time tune bass first. On top of octave, use 5ths, 10ths, 15ths and 17ths and compound fifths. The mistake in temperament is revealed. Some intervals in wrong side is revealed in this process. Play some chord, its full of bass. Not treble is not tuned yet.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas3-1-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds3-1-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths3-1-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths3-1-sep-2012

Weekend begins.

Have a nice weekend
Weiyan
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/01/12 09:01 PM

Ignore last post(1-Sep-2012).

This Sunday morning I played some chords, find the F chord offensive. Further deep into it, find A3-C4 offensive. Compared with other m3s, it has different character. Finally retuned whole temperament.

I learned use m3s to evaluate temperament this Sunday.

Than you.

Have a nice Sunday.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/02/12 02:30 AM

Today's tuning.

G4 tune down a liitle after record, slow down bit rate of D4-G4.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas1-2-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds1-2-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths1-2-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths1-2-sep-2012
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/04/12 07:01 AM


Hi Weiyan,

Very good job, you have sensibly improved all intervals. I'm glad you can also use m3rds and M6ths, as well as larger intervals... as you say they reveal any approximation and help perfecting both the "temperament" and the overall tuning-form.

Let's try to further refine your last tuning, by listening again to some intervals that can be improved.

The base:

A3-A4: Ok, now we hear some "movement"
A3-E4: Ok...
E4-A4: Ok, a little too wide...
A3-D4: Ok, it can be wider, closer to 1 bps
D4-A4: Ok...careful, it may be inverted

Thirds:

A3-C#4: Better than before, a bit slow
A#3-D4: Nice progression, although a bit slow
B3-D#4: Nice
C4-E4: slow, compare with previous… ready to check C4 (too high)
C#4-F4: Ok
D4-F#4: Ok
D#4-G4: Ok
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok...

Fourths:

A3-D4: See base
A#-D#: Fast (about 2 bps, check A#3-F4... check C4-F4... it's "just", down C4
B3-E4: Ok
C4-F4: Just, no beating...
C#4-F#4: Fast, check C#4-G#4... Ok, check G#4 (D#4-G#4)... too just, raise (a bit) C#4, G#4, A#3, F4

D4-G4: a bit fast, raise D4 but check F#4 (as a fifth and third), B3-F#4 is a bit too narrow, so raise also F#4

D#4-G#4: too just, compare (also in general) and make it similar to neighbors
E4-A4: little to wide, raise E4 just a little bit

And you would remember A#3... up a bit.

Well done, Weiyan, did you correct "aurally" or VT's?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/05/12 03:43 AM

Alfredo,

I use ETD tune to +/- 5 cents, then correct aurally.
Edit:
Last tuning had a lot correction during tuning bass octaves.
END OF EDIT


Yesterday tuned the piano with ETD, so no correction can do .

Today I raise the frequency to 442HZ and tuned pure aural. Tuned F3-B7, for some mistake reflected in octaves, especially some interval in wrong direction. Take five hours to tune two octaves.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-5-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-5-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-5-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-5-sep-2012

Thanks.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/05/12 08:03 PM


Hi Weiyan,

You have done very well!

The base:

A3-A4: Good (*)
A3-E4: Ok (*)
E4-A4: Ok
A3-D4: Ok (*)
D4-A4: Ok

(*): While I'm tuning the base, I consider "normal" having to correct A3, E4 and D4. In the case above, A3 can go down a bit (with a Forte blow), so improving your base.

Fine corrections:

A3-A4: Good (*), a little bit shy, it can be a little bit wider
A3-E4: Ok (*), if A3 goes (a little bit) down, E4 can also go down a bit
E4-A4: Ok, you want this 4th a little faster
A3-D4: Ok (*), make it closer to 1 bps, if anything... abundant, you may adjust it later with a Forte
D4-A4: Ok

Thirds:

A3-C#4: Ok, sweet/slow
A#3-D4: slower than A3-C#4
B3-D#4: Ok
C4-E4: Ok...
C#4-F4: Ok...
D4-F#4: Ok...
D#4-G4: Ok
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok

Fourths:

A3-D4: See base
A#-D#: A little fast
B3-E4: Too just
C4-F4: Too just, check A#3-F4... too narrow, raise F4 and C#4
C#4-F#4: Nice, check B3-F#4... too narrow, raise F#4
D4-G4: a bit fast, raise D4, improves A#3-D4
D#4-G#4: Ok, slower than previous, raise G#4, this also improves C#4-G#4
E4-A4: Slow.

Try (in your time, no rush) to control fourths progression, take A3-D4 and E4-A4 as a reference and put all the other 4ths (bps) in between, progressively.

Have a nice day,

Alfredo
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/06/12 03:10 AM

Alfredo,

Thank you.

I am practicing left hand tuning. I can move a hair little now.

Readjusted yesterday's tuning. Used about three hours to tune F3-B4.

I think in coming days will focus on octaves. Still not know how to use double octave + 7ths.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-6-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-sep-2012
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/06/12 11:28 AM


Hi Weiyan,

You wrote: …"I am practicing left hand tuning."…

May I ask you why?

…"I can move a hair little now."…

This is good, as we are getting into fine "hair" corrections, good for truly progressive beating and singing unisons.

…"Readjusted yesterday's tuning."…

Very good job indeed.

…"Used about three hours to tune F3-B4."…

Is that right, F3-B4 in about three hours? Hmmm… that would be far too long. Let me know if you can sing the note you tune… we might be able to sort out a faster procedure.

…"I think in coming days will focus on octaves."…

That's good. Let me know if you want to spend some time on your last recordings (6 Sept.).

…"Still not know how to use double octave + 7ths."…

That's quite straightforward: play (for example) C2-A#4, it beats very very fast… so fast that we cannot distinguish beats… go - chromatically - down the bass (slowly) until you can actually hear/distinguish beats (expect fast beating) and use them to order their progression. Slow-bps = bottom note is high in pitch; Fast-bps = bottom note is low. As mentioned, do not trust one single interval, use all intervals and beats that can help you to manage and "position" the bass pitch, use fifths, octaves, 10ths, 12ths, 15ths, 17ths and, not last, use your sense of "in tune".
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/06/12 12:39 PM

Thank you.

Practicing left hand is for spreading the work load of right hand. For higher register, its easier for left hand in seating position. For base notes I use right hand. This is ergonomic. Base string leaned leftward. Play with left and tune with right hand have better posture. For treble note is just opposite. I also found use left hand, the hammer in ten o'clock is easier to raise pitch little by little.

The slow speed is due to low proficiency level. Take time to check interval directions. Evaluate tuning by playing chords in all keys. Then diagnostic for inconsistent colors and correction.

Although I think practice can improve speed, still looking for faster procedure.

For F3 - G#3 and A#4 - B4, I keep the thirds beat rate progressiveness.

After submitting last post, tuned all octaves.

For base notes use intervals. 10ths, Octave + 5ths, extended chords and dominant 7ths.

For double wound notes are difficult to align the intervals. C1 - A#0 tune with ETD then correct aurally.

For treble octaves, I use fifths, fourths and thirds to confirm tuning. Interval wider than octave not used.

No tuning tomorrow. Just enjoy the harmony. Away a few days let the brain cell to growth. Next week drop pitch and tune again. Or may be continue 6-Sept's tuning. Which one is better?

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/06/12 02:46 PM


..."Practicing left hand is for spreading the work load of right hand. For higher register, its easier for left hand in seating position. For base notes I use right hand. This is ergonomic. Base string leaned leftward. Play with left and tune with right hand have better posture. For treble note is just opposite. I also found use left hand, the hammer in ten o'clock is easier to raise pitch little by little."...

Thank you, Weiyan, for answering my question.

..."After submitting last post, tuned all octaves.

For base notes use intervals. 10ths, Octave + 5ths, extended chords and dominant 7ths.

For double wound notes are difficult to align the intervals. C1 - A#0 tune with ETD then correct aurally.

For treble octaves, I use fifths, fourths and thirds to confirm tuning. Interval wider than octave not used.

No tuning tomorrow. Just enjoy the harmony. Away a few days let the brain cell to growth. Next week drop pitch and tune again. Or may be continue 6-Sept's tuning. Which one is better?"...

If I may suggest, continue the 6-Sept's tuning, explore/relate high register 12ths, 15ths and 17ths with today's octaves. Alternatively, follow your inspiration. ;-)

Where have those lovely birds gone?

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/07/12 09:54 AM

In summer, a lot typhoon and always rainy. The birds are gone.

That's tune the high register similar to base? Never tried before. Let me try and may have questions.

Always thank you.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/07/12 01:36 PM


Hi Weiyan,

..."That's tune the high register similar to base?"...

Yes, it is similar to the base, mainly proceed with three Slow-Beating-Intervals intervals and further check (and perfect) with Fast-BI's. I use 8's, 12ths and 15ths... and check with 17ths. C7-C8... also check fifths, I like to hear them (apparently) pure.

..."Never tried before. Let me try and may have questions."...

You're welcome. Have a nice w.e.,

Alfredo
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/10/12 07:02 AM

Hi Happy Monday.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/a-4-10-sep-2012

Tuned A#4.

First part is 10th chromatic down.

Then intervals, 5ths, 8ths, 10ths, 15ths, 17ths.

Is tuning this way?

Thank you;
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/11/12 12:26 AM

Today's A4 is 441HZ, I dropped to 399Hz.

Objective of today's exercise:
Build up Ear / hand coordination.
Learn to trust my ear.

This can have faster tuning.

Tuning F3-B4 within 10 minutes.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-11-sep-2012
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/11/12 02:17 AM

Hi Weiyan,

In order to reply properly I have to wait until tonight. For the time being, have a nice afternoon.

Alfredo
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/11/12 05:47 AM

Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

No hurry.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/11/12 06:08 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Let's see what follows:

..."Hi Happy Monday.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/a-4-10-sep-2012

Tuned A#4.
First part is 10th chromatic down.
Then intervals, 5ths, 8ths, 10ths, 15ths, 17ths.
Is tuning this way?"...

Yes, tuning requires going through chromatic intervals, interrelating (getting the most correct (univocal/coherent) relation amongst) all intervals and their chromatic beat-curves, all across the keyboard. This (only) can really shape a sound-whole.

If possible, listen to the 10ths again, you'll notice that the 10th on A4 is much slower than the previous (F#3-A#4, this beats fast) and equal beating with the next down (E3-G#4). Now, in this sequence (going down the bass)... beats must slow down progressively. See, in the case above, we have the first 10th very fast and the following two 10ths are much slower (and equal beating). Please, let me know if you can notice that.

The other intervals:

5th, D#-A#, make it closer to just
8th, as above
10th, Ok... tense
15th, 17th, Ok. Please note, in this range 15ths (on their own) are not much significant, as our ear is pretty "generous" here.

On your latest samples:

..."Today's A4 is 441HZ, I dropped to 399Hz.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-11-sep-2012

The base:

A3-A4: Ok...
A3-E4: make it narrow-closer to just
E4-A4: Ok
A3-D4: this beats about 2 bps, make it (wide) closer to 1 bps
D4-A4: as above, too much "movement", make it almost just (you want to invert the fifths beat rate progression)

Thirds:

A3-C#4: Too slow, about 3 bps, check C#4-F#4… very "salty" (very tense), raise C#4
A#3-D4: Ok, much faster than previous, let me know if you can hear that (we will correct your next tuning)
B3-D#4: Slower than previous, around 6 bps, more typical of E3-G#3
C4-E4: Ok, a bit too tense
C#4-F4: Ok, as above
D4-F#4: Ok, sweeter than previous (try to "feel" this difference)
D#4-G4: Ok, it gets less tense, make it go the other way around
E4-G#4: As above
F4-A4: Ok

..."Objective of today's exercise:
Build up Ear / hand coordination."...

Yes, it is "hands and ear (and breath/rythm)" coordination. Strangely enough, it may be more difficult when you go down in pitch. In general, make (feel) the pin rotate counter-clock and get to "just/narrow"; play a "forte" (for spreading the string's tension); now that your pitch is flat, (step one) get close to "just" only under pin torque/bending; then make the pin rotate (wide-clock-wise (*)) at its bottom (you may clearly feel that), change the hammer's position (on vertical at 12/11) and counter-charge the pin by exerting some steady/continuous force onto the hammer, towards the string and try to get to the "spot" with one more "forte".

(*) How much should the pin rotate... depends on the pin's elasticity, which you can evaluate in step one. In time, step-one will allow your brain to calculate the exact pin-rotation needed in order to get the wanted-pitch-as-the-result of pin-counter-charge.

..."Learn to trust my ear."...

You are right, and we can use two ears, one for intonation (meaning color, taste, feelings etc...) and one for beats rhythm, the latter being absolutely real and shareable.

..."This can have faster tuning."...

Yes, Weiyan, I agree. Can you get other pianos to work on?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/11/12 10:29 PM

Thank you.
I can hear that. I am preparing for real production, so emphasis on speed.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/11/12 11:02 PM

This morning rasied about 6 cents. Pure aural except A4.

Finished in a few minutes.

D4 and G4 raised a little bit after recording.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-12-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-12-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-12-sep-2012

The next stage will be the most difficul: getting many pianos to practice.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/13/12 01:08 AM


Hi Weiyan,

You wrote:

…"I can hear that. I am preparing for real production, so emphasis on speed."…

That's good. Today we can compare also the two latest samples:

The base:

A3-A4: Ok, it moves a bit much
A3-E4: Ok
E4-A4: Ok
A3-D4: Ok, slow
D4-A4: Ok, moves a bit much, is A4 inverted?

Thirds:

A3-C#4: Fast
A#3-D4: Slow, check A#3-D#4… Ok, check A#3-F4… too narrow (about 3 bps), perhaps raise D#4 and F4 (and D4? and A4?)
B3-D#4: slow (about 6 bps), check B3-E4… Ok, confirm D#4 up
C4-E4: Ok...
C#4-F4: Slow (compare with C4-E4), confirm F4 up
D4-F#4: Ok, pretty tense, confirm D4 up
D#4-G4: Slow, sweet (compare with D4-F#4), check C4-G4… too narrow (about 3 bps?), raise G4
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok, sweeter than previous

Get ready, next time you may try this kind of self-correction.

Have a nice day,

Alfredo
.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/13/12 03:16 PM


Hi Weiyan (good morning!),

I can now compensate for the relative little time I had this morning. I was saying "...we can compare also the two latest samples"...; in fact, if we listen to the second last "Thirds" sample,

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-11-sep-2012

and the last one,

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-sep-2012

it should be evident how A3-C#4 and A#3-D4 have swapped their beat-rates.

Perhaps less evident is the (small) difference (between those two samples), when it comes to C4-E4. If you like, you can exercise your ears ((intonation/flavor) and (beat/speed)) by re-listening and comparing both a few times. At some stage we'll have to be able to manage that.

One more thing... once you refine your middle-octave, expand every time with octaves and check every time 10ths, 12ths and 15ths (going treble) and 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 10ths (towards the bass). So doing you may better balance your ear-training and the overall straining of the pins.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/14/12 08:30 PM

Quote:
it should be evident how A3-C#4 and A#3-D4 have swapped their beat-rates.


It always perceive too slow BR is too fast to hear the BR. Have to learn to trust intonation.

Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/14/12 10:51 PM

Today's practice. Emphasis on listening intonation on top of beat rates.

Dropped C#4 a little after recording. Not suppose to be very precise, its going to develop the responsiveness to intonation and beat rate change.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-15-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-sep-2012
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/15/12 04:29 PM


Hi Weiyan,

This time, let's listen to 4ths and 5ths in the (flow-chart) sequence order, we will try to spot over-beating intervals and relate them to the thirds progression.

The base:

A3-A4: Ok
A3-E4: Ok, is it inverted? Always get sure...
E4-A4: Too close to just, is E4 inverted?
A3-D4: Ok, it moves a bit much...
D4-A4: Ok, always make sure A4 and D4 are not inverted

A3-E4: Ok...
E4-B3: Too just (always compare with A3-D4...)
B3-F#4: Ok, right now check your 1st third D4-F#4... it is very tense due to B3 (too high in pitch)
F#4-C#4: Too just (always compare with A3-D4 and E4-A4 (*)), check your 2nd third A3-C#4... it is very tense due to C#4 (too high)
C#4-G#4: Too much beating, check your third E4-G#4... it is sour, make sure C#4-G#4 is not inverted
G#4-D#4: Too much beating (compare E4-A4), check your third B3-D#4 and compare it to A3-C#4... what do you hear? Their progression is inverted, in fact A3-C#4 is much faster.

Here you could go back and check/see what is wrong... In fact, you want B3-D#4 faster than A3-C#4.

D#4-A#3: Too much beating, check your third A#3-D4 and compare with adjacent A3-C#4 and B3-D#4... A#3-D4 is the slowest (no good)
A#3-F4: As above, check your third C#4-F4... very sweet (about 5 bps)
From D4 tune G4: Too much beating (compare adjacent fourths)
G4-C4: Too much beating, is this inverted?

"Join" C4 with F4: Too wide (about 7 bps)

(*): A3-D4, C#4-F#4 and E4-A4 must be in progression

It happened that the initial fourths B3-E4 and C#4-F#4 (too just) have pushed C#4 very high; the next D#4-G#4 and A#3-D#4 (too wide) have somehow balanced that.

..."Dropped C#4 a little after recording. Not suppose to be very precise, its going to develop the responsiveness to intonation and beat rate change."...

Weiyan, you are doing well already. Considering intonation, you could let me know...

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012

...Which thirds sound strange/wrong for you?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/16/12 10:51 PM

Thank you.

I think missed the relationship between thirds BR and fourths BR.

I have difficult to here the intonation of fifths. Sometimes I need ETD to confirm if a fifth interval in right side, even I count the beat rate correct.

Following is sequence I remembered.
A4->A3
A3->E4
A3->D4
E4->B3
B3->F#4
F#4->C#4
C#4->G#4
G#4->D#4
D#4->A#3
A#3->F4
F4->C4
D4->G4

Quote:
Weiyan, you are doing well already. Considering intonation, you could let me know...

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012

...Which thirds sound strange/wrong for you?


A3-C#4 : OK
A#3-D4 : slow
B3-D#4 : ok
C4-E4 : too tense
C#4-F4 : slow
D4-F#4 : too tense
D#4-F#4 : Too tense
E4-G#4 : sweet. BR not determined
F4-A4 : sweet. BR not determined.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/17/12 06:16 PM


Hi Weiyan,

You wrote:

..."I think missed the relationship between thirds BR and fourths BR."...

Never mind, now consider that all intervals are related to each other, in time you'll be able to mentally draw a "beat-map" and administrate those relationships in the strictest way.

..."I have difficult to here the intonation of fifths."...

Don't worry, you are not alone... bi-chords (only two notes played together/simultaneously) have a fairly large leeway, meaning that our ear may accept, say, F3-A3 at a beat-rate from (anything close to) zero to perhaps 10 bps. It is only when we (and orchestras and chorus) play complex chords that intervals need to be tempered into a (complex) whole.

..."Sometimes I need ETD to confirm if a fifth interval in right side, even I count the beat rate correct."...

I too need to confirm that, and I do that with my tuning hammer: I move it either drop-wise (anti-clock) or raise-wise (clock-wise) and see if the beat gets faster or slower. For example, if a fifth is on the narrow side, ACW will produce some (more) beating, CW will make it still.

..."Following is sequence I remembered.

A4->A3
A3->E4
A3->D4
E4->B3
B3->F#4
F#4->C#4
C#4->G#4
G#4->D#4
D#4->A#3
A#3->F4
F4->C4
D4->G4

- . - . - . -

Ok, perhaps you can look at it this way:

A4 -> A3 // A3-> E4 -> A4 // -> A3 -> D4 -> A4

The above five intervals represent the basic relation (and reference), even if you need to further correct them subsequently (*).

E4->B3, cannot be slower than A3-D4, not faster than E4-A4
B3->F#4, cannot be narrower than A3-E4, not "juster" than D4-A4
F#4->C#4, wider than A3-D4, less wide than E4-A4
C#4->G#4, very very close to D4-A4, a "hair" narrower
G#4->D#4, very very close to E4-A4, a hair slower
D#4->A#3, very very close to A3-D4, a hair wider
A#3->F4, very very close to A3-E4, a hair less-narrow

Now tune G4 from D4, very very close to G#4->D#4, a hair slower;

and tune C4 from G4, in-between B3-F#4 and C#4-G#4. Check C4-F4, possibly in-between B3-E4 and C#4-F#4.

(*): Tuning is dynamic, so keep memory of any (due) approximation, actually go "by" approximations and solve them along the way. As for "thirds relations", refer to our previous post.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012

You wrote:

A3-C#4 : OK
A#3-D4 : slow
B3-D#4 : ok
C4-E4 : too tense
C#4-F4 : slow
D4-F#4 : too tense
D#4-F#4 : Too tense
E4-G#4 : sweet. BR not determined
F4-A4 : sweet. BR not determined.

- . - . - . -

This is what I hear:

A3-C#4: Fast, beats are in a flow
A#3-D4: Slow, about 6 bps
B3-D#4: As above
C4-E4: Too tense
C#4-F4: Slow, about 4 bps
D4-F#4: Too tense
D#4-F#4: Tense and close to correct
E4-G#4: Tense, close to correct
F4-A4: Sweet.

Good for you, your estimations were mostly correct.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/18/12 02:24 AM

Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

Following the tuning sequence to check thirds beat rates seems easier to correct tuning. Eg., if A3-C#4 not in question, then check C#4-G#4.

When hear a fifth have correct wave form, then I stretch the pin clockwise little, without turning the pin to confirm the direction. Fouths seems have larger movement, is easier to confirm directon.

I also compare triads from A3 up to D4 chromatically. Mistakes are reflected in inconsistent. color.

Took more than half hour to tune A3-A4. A lot faster than 3 hours, but still too slow in production.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-18-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-18-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-18-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-18-sep-2012
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/18/12 10:06 AM


Hi Weiyan,

Good job indeed. Although thirds are not all precisely progressive, you have managed to make some adjacent thirds very similar, which is good.

Let's listen together.

The base:

A3-A4: Nice, it may be inverted
A3-E4: It moves too much...
E4-A4: It moves too little. Two main possibilities: first p., E4 is too narrow and A3-A4 is narrow; second p., E4 wide! and A3-A4 correct
A3-D4: Ok, it moves a lot (about 2 bps, make it about 1 bps)...
D4-A4: It moves too much (almost 3 bps), it should sound almost still. Perhaps (first p.) E4 is too narrow and A3-A4 is narrow

Following the (Flow-chart) sequence order:

A3-E4: It moves too much...
E4-B3: Too just (always compare with A3-D4)
B3-F#4: It beats too much (about 2 bps, it should beat less than A3-E4, more than D4-A4), right now check your 1st third D4-F#4… it is nice/sweet, it must be nice/tense... a "hair" difference that you will mature in time. Here also check your first 6th A3-F#4, you want to develop the taste.

F#4-C#4: Too just (compare with A3-D4 and E4-A4), check your 2nd third A3-C#4 and compare with D4-F#4… D4-F#4 is sweeter, not in progression, so I would quickly go back and improve previous intervals.

C#4-G#4: Nice, still, check again adjacent D4-A4... very different, I would go back and improve the base;

G#4-D#4: Too much beating, check your third B3-D#4 and compare it to A3-C#4... what do you hear? B3-D#4 is sweeter, their progression is inverted;

D#4-A#3: Quite still, check adjacent A3-D4... very different, check your third A#3-D4 and compare with adjacent A3-C#4 and B3-D#4...

A#3-F4: Nice, check your third C#4-F4… Ok/slow (about 7 bps), compare with D4-F#4, this is sweeter/slower;

From D4 tune G4: Ok, compare the other (adjacent) fourths and evaluate their progression;
G4-C4: compare with (and check) the other fifths, C4-F4 (too still) and adjacent fourths, C4-E3 (too tense) and adjacent thirds.

You wrote:

..."When hear a fifth have correct wave form, then I stretch the pin clockwise little, without turning the pin to confirm the direction."...

That's good.

..."Fouths seems have larger movement, is easier to confirm direction."...

Ok, when tuning the base, make sure A3-A4 and A3-D4 are wide, make A3-E4 very slowly (narrow) beating and E4-A4 sensibly faster than A3-D4.

..."I also compare triads from A3 up to D4 chromatically. Mistakes are reflected in inconsistent. color."...

I too like doing that and find it useful.

..."Took more than half hour to tune A3-A4. A lot faster than 3 hours, but still too slow in production."...

That's ok, try not to hesitate... Tune your note, compare quickly with other available intervals, do not aim at "static" perfection, get close from above and ready to improve all (improvable) points you could memorize.

Buona serata, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/19/12 03:55 AM

Mute the piano and listen again. I can hear the A3-D4 beating to fast indeed. And most intervals I can hear. It same as what I heard during last tuning session. It obviously I don't trust my ear enough.

Will tune again tomorrow and further investigate to A3-A4 to confirm if its too wide or too narrow.

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/19/12 11:36 PM

HI,

Not easy to touch up last tuning. All notes except A4 had moved.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-20-sep-2012

Thank you.
Regards
Weiyan

Edit:

A#3-F4 beats too fast,
B3-F#4 too fast,

B3-E4 too slow,
C#4-G#4 too fast
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/20/12 12:07 AM

Hi,

Some correction made.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds1-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths1-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths1-20-sep-2012

Thak you.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/21/12 06:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
HI,

Not easy to touch up last tuning. All notes except A4 had moved.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-20-sep-2012

Thank you.
Regards
Weiyan

Edit:

A#3-F4 beats too fast,
B3-F#4 too fast,

B3-E4 too slow,
C#4-G#4 too fast


Hi Weiyan,

I'm travelling around for work...

About your self-revision (above):

A#3-F4 beats too fast,.......Correct
B3-F#4 too fast,.......Correct

B3-E4 too slow,.......Correct
C#4-G#4 too fast,.......Non correct

If you like, please revise and comment your (recorded) thirds, in terms of "slow/slower than...", "fast/faster than...".

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-sep-2012

I'll be back soon.

Buon pomeriggio, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/22/12 01:48 AM

Thank you.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/26/12 04:53 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Let's listen together to the last recorded thirds:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-sep-2012

A3-C#4: Too slow (about 3 bps)
A#3-D4: Better than previous, too sweet (about 6 bps)
B3-D#4: slower than previous
C4-E4: Very very tense, too fast
C#4-F4: sweet, too slow (about 4 bps)
D4-F#4: Ok, sour, fast
D#4-G4: Sweet, slower than previous
E4-G#4: Very slow and slower than previous
F4-A4: Very tense

Perhaps you can compare the 20-sep-thirds with the 15-sep-thirds:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012

A3-C#4: Fast, beats are in a flow
A#3-D4: Slow, about 6 bps
B3-D#4: As above
C4-E4: Too tense
C#4-F4: Slow, about 4 bps
D4-F#4: Too tense
D#4-G4: Tense and close to correct
E4-G#4: Tense, close to correct
F4-A4: Sweet.

If you like, you may let me know what you hear. In particular, you may compare and notice how A3-C#4, D#4-G4, E4-G#4 and F4-A4 have changed, thinking about color/tension/taste/texture.

Regards, a.c.

Edit: Typo correction... D#4-F#4 (m3) into D#4-G4 (M3).
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/26/12 11:04 PM

Before review your last post, I tune it again.

The octave I use M3-M10 / m3-M6 test to make sure its at wide side.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-27-sep-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-27-sep-2012
A#3-D4, B3-D#4 too sweet.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-27-sep-2012
A#4-D#4, D#4-G4 too perfect.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-27-sep-2012
C4-G4, C#4-G#4 sounds strange.

The intuition on beats and intonation seems build up gradually.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/27/12 04:02 AM


Hi Weiyan,

A brief comment before I go out for work.

Try to relate beats with the movement of your tuning hammer: in other words, while turning the hammer... do not stop the sound, keep your fingers down onto the keyboard and listen to the interval, how the interval (and the beat-rate) can change.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-27-sep-2012
A#4-D#4, D#4-G4 too perfect.

In general, stay closer to "just", try to avoid fourths beating like A#3-D#4 (very very fast! Inverted?), C4-F4 (fast, about 3 bps) and D#4-G#4 (very fast, about 6 bps).

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-27-sep-2012
A#3-D4, B3-D#4 too sweet.

Yes, your comment is correct; you may now compare A3-C#4, C4-E4, C#4-F4 and F4-A4... let me know what you hear.

Have a nice afternoon, a.c.

Edit: added F4-A4, which may be compared with those other thirds.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/27/12 09:19 PM

Good morning Alfredo,

Just listened directly to the piano.

A#3-D#4, Af-F4, D#4-G#4 are ultra fast.

A#3-C4 very slow.
B3-D#4 very fast compare to last interval.
C4-E4 same are little bit slower than previous last interval.

Its easier to hear after rest.

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/28/12 08:06 AM

Hi,

Today I practice slow move the hammer to listen to beat rate change. Not easy to keep the steady slow move. Only approach correct pitch from upper side. If over shoot, raise and tune again.

Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/28/12 11:45 PM

Today I tuned with slow pull. Hearing the br change while pushing the hammer. After recording, tried some interval with LH, its easier than RH. Law of gravity works.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-sep-2012
A#3-D#4 too just.
Beat rate change from D#4-G#4 to E4-A4 not smooth. Don't know how to correct it.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-sep-2012
Oh, E3-A4 beats too fast.


Happy Mid-Autumn(Moon Cake) Festival
Weiyan
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/30/12 04:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Today I tuned with slow pull. Hearing the br change while pushing the hammer. After recording, tried some interval with LH, its easier than RH. Law of gravity works.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-sep-2012
A#3-D#4 too just.
Beat rate change from D#4-G#4 to E4-A4 not smooth. Don't know how to correct it.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-sep-2012
Oh, E3-A4 beats too fast.


Happy Mid-Autumn(Moon Cake) Festival
Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

I'm very glad because you've done a nice job! Your thirds progression is much smoother, you are refining your tunings indeed.

Insist on making sure A3-A4 and A3-D4 are on the right side and now expand your mid-octave all across your piano. A wider intervals beat-map will help you refine also the original octave.

Today I'm visiting my father...

Thank you for your wishes, have a nice sunday,

Alfredo
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/30/12 11:51 AM

Hi Alfredo,

My ear open suddenly, and hammer skill improved. I can hear the purity of fifth and fourth. Today I raised 2hz and tuned again, I can refined it to an acceptable thirds progression.

Tune the fifths near pure, fourths begins from 1bps then progress to fast BR. Finally refine A4. The octave is not as wide as I think.

What's next should be more practice.

Also thanks to Kamin(Issac)'s encouragement.

Best wishes to you and your family!
Weiyan
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/02/12 03:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan

My ear open suddenly, and hammer skill improved. I can hear the purity of fifth and fourth. Today I raised 2hz and tuned again, I can refined it to an acceptable thirds progression.

Tune the fifths near pure, fourths begins from 1bps then progress to fast BR. Finally refine A4. The octave is not as wide as I think.

What's next should be more practice.

Also thanks to Kamin(Issac)'s encouragement.

Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

I know exactly what you mean, that happened to me too and I believe that our skills "grow" by going through various degrees (steps?) of awareness.

Let me know when you are ready to revise your last post, by listening more attentively to your last recording.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/04/12 03:53 AM

Good afternoon.

The Mid Autumn festival and National Day holiday is over.

The Base:

A3-E4 too fast, around 1.5bps.
E4-A4 too slow, 1.5bps.

A3-D4 OK, 1bps
D4-A4 > < 2bps

The A3-A4 too narrow.

Thirds
A3-D#4 9 bps, OK
A#3-D4 little slower
B3-D#4, 8 bps, slower
C4-E4, seems ok, but not accurate estimation since previous interval is too slow.
C#4-F4 same as previous interval, too slow
D4-F#4, D#4-G4, E4-G#4, F4-A4, over impression is too fast, but have progression.

Fourths
A3-D4 1.5Bps, too fast
A#3-D#4 too slow, beats like fifth
B3-E4 too slow, beats like fifth
C4-F4 too slow
C#4F#4 Slow
D4-G4 > 2bps, too fast
D#4-G#4, 1.5bps, may ok
E4-A4 1bps, too slow

Improvement
Raise E4, improve C4-E4, A3-E4, B3-E4
Drop A#3, improve A#4-D4, A#3-D#4
Drop B3, improve B3-D#4, B3-E4,
Raise F4, improve D#3-F4, C4-F4
Raise D4, improve D4-F#4, D4-G4
Drop G4, improve D$4-G4, D4-G4
Raise A4, improve A3-E4, E4-A4, making A3-A4 wide enough.

Next time should fine tune the base before rest of the tuning.
A3-E4: 0.5bps
E4A4: 2bps
A3-D4: 1bps,
D4-A4: near pure

Thank you.
Weiyan
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/05/12 09:25 AM

Tuned again.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourth-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-5-oct-2012

Have a nice weekend.
Weiyan
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/05/12 08:23 PM

Good Morning:

This Saturday morning, adjusted F4 and G4 to make A#3-F4, C4-G4 purer.

Listen direct to the piano, A3-E4 too noisy. May due to instability. Corrected.

Have a nice weekend.
Weiyan
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/06/12 03:25 PM


Hi Weiyan,

I hope you could enjoy the Mid Autumn festival and National Day. How is that celebrated in Honk Kong?



Right now I could only listen to these samples, it seems to me that you have progressed consistently. Hope I can soon be more precise.

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Good afternoon.

The Mid Autumn festival and National Day holiday is over.

The Base:

A3-E4 too fast, around 1.5bps.
E4-A4 too slow, 1.5bps.

A3-D4 OK, 1bps
D4-A4 > < 2bps

The A3-A4 too narrow.

Thirds
A3-D#4 9 bps, OK
A#3-D4 little slower
B3-D#4, 8 bps, slower
C4-E4, seems ok, but not accurate estimation since previous interval is too slow.
C#4-F4 same as previous interval, too slow
D4-F#4, D#4-G4, E4-G#4, F4-A4, over impression is too fast, but have progression.

Fourths
A3-D4 1.5Bps, too fast
A#3-D#4 too slow, beats like fifth
B3-E4 too slow, beats like fifth
C4-F4 too slow
C#4F#4 Slow
D4-G4 > 2bps, too fast
D#4-G#4, 1.5bps, may ok
E4-A4 1bps, too slow

Improvement
Raise E4, improve C4-E4, A3-E4, B3-E4
Drop A#3, improve A#4-D4, A#3-D#4
Drop B3, improve B3-D#4, B3-E4,
Raise F4, improve D#3-F4, C4-F4
Raise D4, improve D4-F#4, D4-G4
Drop G4, improve D$4-G4, D4-G4
Raise A4, improve A3-E4, E4-A4, making A3-A4 wide enough.

Next time should fine tune the base before rest of the tuning.
A3-E4: 0.5bps
E4A4: 2bps
A3-D4: 1bps,
D4-A4: near pure

Thank you.
Weiyan


Soon I am going to check the above too. I am very glad you could produce that effort.

Have a nice Sunday, a.c.
.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/07/12 10:07 AM


Hi Weiyan,

Below is your own analysis, my comment follows the line in brackets.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-sep-2012
A#3-D#4 too just.
Beat rate change from D#4-G#4 to E4-A4 not smooth. Don't know how to correct it.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-sep-2012
Oh, E3-A4 beats too fast.

..."The Mid Autumn festival and National Day holiday is over.

The Base:

A3-E4 too fast, around 1.5bps.(yes, perhaps 2 bps)
E4-A4 too slow, 1.5bps. (yes, perhaps even slower)
A3-D4 OK, 1bps (correct)(Edit(*))
D4-A4 > < 2bps (hmmm... much slower?)

The A3-A4 too narrow. (yes)

Thirds
A3-D#4 9 bps, OK (yes, very little slow)
A#3-D4 little slower (yes)
B3-D#4, 8 bps, slower (I'm not sure, then I would simply check 4ths and 5th on B3 and D#4)
C4-E4, seems ok, but not accurate estimation since previous interval is too slow.
C#4-F4 same as previous interval, too slow (yes)
D4-F#4, D#4-G4, E4-G#4, F4-A4, over impression is too fast, but have progression. (yes, but D#4-G4 is sweeter than the others)

For the time being I have to stop here...

Regards, a.c.

(*)Edit: In general, it is better to stay a "hair" higher, in consideration of the pitch tendency (drop). Many times, you will be able to "hair" correct any interval by playing a Forte. We want to anticipate "hysteresis".
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/08/12 11:38 AM


Hi Weiyan,

Second half, my comment (in brackets) follows yours:

Fourths
A3-D4 1.5Bps, too fast (I hear less than 1 bps)
A#3-D#4 too slow, beats like fifth (yes)
B3-E4 too slow, beats like fifth (yes)
C4-F4 too slow (?)
C#4F#4 Slow ((?) - perhaps this is correct, play the interval a little longer)
D4-G4 > 2bps, too fast (yes)
D#4-G#4, 1.5bps, may ok (slow)
E4-A4 1bps, too slow (yes)

Improvement
Raise E4, improve C4-E4, A3-E4, B3-E4
Drop A#3, improve A#4-D4, A#3-D#4
Drop B3, improve B3-D#4, B3-E4,
Raise F4, improve D#3 (you meant C#4)-F4, C4-F4 (or leave C4-F4(?) and drop C#4(?)...check C#4-G#4...)
Raise D4, improve D4-F#4, D4-G4 (yes)
Drop G4, improve D$4-G4, D4-G4 (hmmm... check C4-G4...)
Raise A4, improve A3-E4, E4-A4, making A3-A4 wide enough. (yes)

Next time should fine tune the base before rest of the tuning. (yes, fine and jet temporary)
A3-E4: 0.5bps (even slower)
E4A4: 2bps (even faster)
A3-D4: 1bps,(or a "hair" higher)
D4-A4: near pure (yes!)

- . - . - . -

Well, you have done a very good job!

Next:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourth-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-5-oct-2012

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/08/12 10:45 PM

Thank you.

Will hear the sound file again and review last tuning.

The National day is dark. 38 death in a ship crashing. They are after sea food meal on the way to see firework.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/09/12 11:00 AM


Hi Weiyan,

I have found an article in the web, with other details. I'm very sorry for that.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/10/12 02:56 AM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hi Weiyan,

I have found an article in the web, with other details. I'm very sorry for that.


Should you send me a link?
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/10/12 11:46 AM


Sure, let me know if you could get these articles:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/02/world/asia/hong-kong-ferry-crash/index.html

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90882/7966959.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444223104578035831636313780.html

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/11/12 03:26 AM

Thank you. I got the links.



Very bad tuning, besides the thirds have some progression.

The base:
A3-E4: beats faster than 1bps, too fast
E4-A4: beats ok
A3-D4: Ok
D4-A4: 1bps, too fast

A3-A4 too narrow

Thirds:
A3-C#4:Ok
A#3-D4: OK
B3-D#4: slow
C4-E4: faster than previous interval, may ok.
C#4-F4: has progression, may ok
D4-F#4: slower than previous interval
D#4-G4, E4-G$4, F4-A4: has progression, has a feeling of too tense.

Fourths:
A3-D4: OK
The rest: seems progressive, but the feeling is too tense.

Fifths:
A3-E4: OK.
The rest: has progression. This is not CHAS. The feeling is very tense. The beat rate may be ET fifth, the feeling is not fifth.

Correction:
Better to tune again from ground.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/11/12 04:42 PM

You are welcome, Weiyan.

My comment (in brackets):

The base:
A3-E4: beats faster than 1bps, too fast (yes)
E4-A4: beats ok (yes)
A3-D4: Ok (not wide enough)
D4-A4: 1bps, too fast (re-listen, D4-A4 is Ok, both D4 and A4 want to go up)

A3-A4 too narrow (yes)

Thirds:
A3-C#4:Ok (yes, a hair slow/sweet, more normal for G3-B3)
A#3-D4: OK (slow, slower than A3-C#4)
B3-D#4: slow (not bad at all)
C4-E4: faster than previous interval, may ok. (slower/sweeter than previous, slow)
C#4-F4: has progression, may ok (yes)
D4-F#4: slower than previous interval (yes)
D#4-G4, E4-G$4, F4-A4: has progression, has a feeling of too tense. (D#4-G4,(sweeter than previous) E4-G$4,(tense) F4-A4 (sweet))

- . - . - . -

You say "too tense"... In general, let's consider that thirds and all F-BI's get very tense (progressively, (going up the scale)), and that is how "variable tensions" can neatly translate into "variety of color"; F-BI's get "too tense", that is why (going up the scale) we check wider intervals (F-BI's), like 6ths, 10th and 17ths, easier to "read".

At this stage, do not ask yourself to order D#4-G4, E4-G#4, F4-A4. Instead, start comparing 6ths, first A3-F#4 and B3-G#4, and then the other two. Use "tone-distance" also for comparing very fast thirds, it gets easier ((?)let me know).

- . - . - . -

Fourths:
A3-D4: OK (not wide enough)
The rest: seems progressive, but the feeling is too tense. (C4-F4 and C#4-F#4 sound Ok, play (and rec) a little longer; D#4-G#4 beats much faster, I'm sure you can hear that)

Fifths:
A3-E4: OK. (too fast, make it calmer)
The rest: has progression. This is not CHAS. The feeling is very tense. The beat rate may be ET fifth, the feeling is not fifth. (tune A3-E4 closer to "Just", avoid beating like C4-G4, tune D4-A4 narrow-just)

- . - . - . -

I need to say that Chas (s=1) works as a reference only; your tunings will stand for yourself and you are doing very well.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/12/12 02:38 AM

Thank you.

Today has a net term "tone distance", what's this?

Tuning better, like playing piano and writing calligraphy is for personal enjoyment. Not all piano can tune to the precision required by CHAS.

Tune again today.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/12/12 04:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan

Today has a net term "tone distance", what's this?



Example: The "distance" between E and F is a semitone; the "distance" between C and D is called a "tone"; B-C, C-C#, C#-D, D-D#, D#-E, E-F, F-F# etc., are semitone distances; B-C#, C#-D#, D#-F etc. are tone distances.

Two "tone-distance" thirds example: C-E, D-F#.

Enjoy your tuning, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/12/12 09:39 AM

Today's tuning.

It seems worse than previous tuning because this is first pass. I am learning to trust my ear and hand.

Will review it tomorrow.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-12-oct-2012
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/13/12 12:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Today's tuning.

It seems worse than previous tuning because this is first pass. I am learning to trust my ear and hand.

Will review it tomorrow.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-12-oct-2012


The base:
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: Seems beats ok, seems too just. The interval may reversed.

A3-D4: Little bit slower
D4-A4: OK
A3-A4: too wide

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: Ok
B3-D#4: slow
C4-E4: Ok
C#4-F4: ok
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: slow
E4-G#4: slow
F4-A4: ok.

Fourths:
A3-D4: slow
A#3-D#4: fast
B3-E4: OK
C4-F4: fast
C#4-F#4: little fast
D4-G4: Slow
D#4-G#4: slow
E4-A4: seems ok

Fifths:
A3-E4; OK
A#3-F4: OK
B3-F#4: fast
C4-G4: fast
C#4-G#4: ok
D4-A4: wavy, too fast

Follow the tuning sequence fine tune it with respect to the wrong intervals.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/13/12 12:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Today's tuning.

It seems worse than previous tuning because this is first pass. I am learning to trust my ear and hand.

Will review it tomorrow.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-12-oct-2012


The base:
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: Seems beats ok, seems too just. The interval may reversed.

A3-D4: Little bit slower
D4-A4: OK
A3-A4: too wide

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: Ok
B3-D#4: slow
C4-E4: Ok
C#4-F4: ok
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: slow
E4-G#4: slow
F4-A4: ok.

Fourths:
A3-D4: slow
A#3-D#4: fast
B3-E4: OK
C4-F4: fast
C#4-F#4: little fast
D4-G4: Slow
D#4-G#4: slow
E4-A4: seems ok

Fifths:
A3-E4; OK
A#3-F4: OK
B3-F#4: fast
C4-G4: fast
C#4-G#4: ok
D4-A4: wavy, too fast

Follow the tuning sequence fine tune it with respect to the wrong intervals.

Perhaps email would be more appropriate for this conversation?

Only purpose I see to dump this interarction here is to get hits on the keyword "CHAS".

Kees
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/13/12 05:11 AM

This is second pass of previous tuning. Move a tiny hair if possible. I play the note while pushing up or pulling down the. In most case I can hear crack sound and feel the pin move. Not sure if this technique is stable. Confirm the direction of interval by slightly pushing up twisting the pin, then set back.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-13-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-13-oct-2012
B3-D#4 sounds strange
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-13-oct-2012
D#4-G#4 sounds strange
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-13-oct-2012
A#3-F4 seems very fast.

The perception of beat rate not the same between recording and the piano. Sometimes there are many "layers" of beats. Should I listen to the fundamental only?

Happy weekend.
Weiyan
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/13/12 04:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
[quote=Weiyan]Today's tuning.

It seems worse than previous tuning because this is first pass. I am learning to trust my ear and hand.

Will review it tomorrow.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-12-oct-2012


Hi Weiyan,

My comment (in brackets) follows your review:

The base:
A3-E4: OK (hmmm... lots of movement)
E4-A4: Seems beats ok, seems too just. The interval may reversed. (yes)

A3-D4: Little bit slow (yes)
D4-A4: OK (tune it closer to just)
A3-A4: too wide (I'm not sure, inverted?)

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK (a bit sweet)
A#3-D4: Ok (yes)
B3-D#4: slow (yes)
C4-E4: Ok (very very tense)
C#4-F4: ok (sweet)
D4-F#4: slow (very tense)
D#4-G4: slow (Ok)
E4-G#4: slow (yes)
F4-A4: ok. (a bit sweet)

Fourths:
A3-D4: slow (yes)
A#3-D#4: fast (yes)
B3-E4: OK (a hair slow)
C4-F4: fast (yes)
C#4-F#4: little fast (yes)
D4-G4: Slow (yes)
D#4-G#4: slow (yes)
E4-A4: seems ok (slow, tune it around 2-3 bps, double check the base-intervals side)

Fifths:
A3-E4; OK (lots of movement)
A#3-F4: OK (yes)
B3-F#4: fast (yes)
C4-G4: fast (yes, very fast)
C#4-G#4: ok (yes, a hair too just)
D4-A4: wavy, too fast (yes)


Originally Posted By: Weiyan
This is second pass of previous tuning. Move a tiny hair if possible. I play the note while pushing up or pulling down the. In most case I can hear crack sound and feel the pin move. Not sure if this technique is stable. Confirm the direction of interval by slightly pushing up twisting the pin, then set back.


http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-13-oct-2012

A3-A4: inverted?
A3-E4: Ok
E4-A4: Too just
A3-D4: Little bit slow
D4-A4: Tune it closer to just

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-13-oct-2012
..."B3-D#4 sounds strange"...

Very good, you have improved your previous tuning, nothing wrong with B3-D#4.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-13-oct-2012
..."D#4-G#4 sounds strange"...

D#4-G#4 is too just, as for the rest I'll wait for your review.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-13-oct-2012
..."A#3-F4 seems very fast."...

Very good, A#3-F4 is a bit too narrow, check C#4-F4... sweet. If you like, review this too.

..."The perception of beat rate not the same between recording and the piano."...

Yes, good training.

..."Sometimes there are many "layers" of beats."...

True.

..."Should I listen to the fundamental only?"...

In general, follow the main beat, the louder, the most evident: so doing, depending on the interval, you'll be listening to the matchings of the smallest partials.

To All, have a nice Sunday, a.c.
.
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/13/12 05:07 PM

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Today's tuning.

It seems worse than previous tuning because this is first pass. I am learning to trust my ear and hand.

Will review it tomorrow.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-12-oct-2012


The base:
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: Seems beats ok, seems too just. The interval may reversed.

A3-D4: Little bit slower
D4-A4: OK
A3-A4: too wide

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: Ok
B3-D#4: slow
C4-E4: Ok
C#4-F4: ok
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: slow
E4-G#4: slow
F4-A4: ok.

Fourths:
A3-D4: slow
A#3-D#4: fast
B3-E4: OK
C4-F4: fast
C#4-F#4: little fast
D4-G4: Slow
D#4-G#4: slow
E4-A4: seems ok

Fifths:
A3-E4; OK
A#3-F4: OK
B3-F#4: fast
C4-G4: fast
C#4-G#4: ok
D4-A4: wavy, too fast

Follow the tuning sequence fine tune it with respect to the wrong intervals.

Perhaps email would be more appropriate for this conversation?

Only purpose I see to dump this interarction here is to get hits on the keyword "CHAS".

Kees


Although I am interested in following Weiyan's progress with aural tuning, I agree with DoelKees about email contact being more appropriate for this kind of detail. Weiyan, please inform us of your general progress from time to time.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/14/12 12:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Although I am interested in following Weiyan's progress with aural tuning, I agree with DoelKees about email contact being more appropriate for this kind of detail. Weiyan, please inform us of your general progress from time to time.

Thanks for the support.

To get M3's to be progressive has nothing to do with CHAS, even if CHAS existed (which I argue does not).

I consider this thread to be 100% SPAM.

Kees
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/14/12 10:47 AM



Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Perhaps email would be more appropriate for this conversation?
Only purpose I see to dump this interarction here is to get hits on the keyword "CHAS".
Kees


Originally Posted By: DoelKees

I consider this thread to be 100% SPAM.
Kees


Alfredo and Weiyan are entitled to communicate in this thread however and whenever they like just as anyone else is entitled to ignore the thread if they dislike the content.
No member of this forum is forcing anyone else to endure reading anything at all. If you are of the opinion this thread 100% spam why are you commenting here? Most people I know ignore or delete spam. They do not return repeatedly to read more.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/14/12 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos


Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Perhaps email would be more appropriate for this conversation?
Only purpose I see to dump this interarction here is to get hits on the keyword "CHAS".
Kees


Originally Posted By: DoelKees

I consider this thread to be 100% SPAM.
Kees


Alfredo and Weiyan are entitled to communicate in this thread however and whenever they like just as anyone else is entitled to ignore the thread if they dislike the content.
No member of this forum is forcing anyone else to endure reading anything at all. If you are of the opinion this thread 100% spam why are you commenting here? Most people I know ignore or delete spam. They do not return repeatedly to read more.

Quit stalking me, Silverwood.

Kees
Posted by: Chris Storch

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/14/12 08:26 PM

It's really pretty easy...

Click on the user's name...
Click on "View Profile"..
When their profile comes up, there are four options above their profile information...
Click on "Ignore this User"

I've been CHAS - free ever since!

Do it. It's very empowering.

Chris S.
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/14/12 09:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
It's really pretty easy...

Click on the user's name...
Click on "View Profile"..
When their profile comes up, there are four options above their profile information...
Click on "Ignore this User"

I've been CHAS - free ever since!

Do it. It's very empowering.

Chris S.

Thanks for the suggestion. Problem is that I am still interested in CHAS discussions, which is why I follow this thread.

All I see here is what should be private emails between a student and his teacher, covering very basic things like hearing beats. It has nothing whatsoever to do with CHAS.

If it's really of interest to anyone else they should make a special "teaching" thread.

Alfredo had a habit of taking posts from other threads and replying to them in some CHAS thread. I believe this is done to
create the impression CHAS is an active topic of discussion. I think the recent content of this tread is a manifestation of the same practice.

Kees
Posted by: woodog

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/14/12 09:45 PM

This from a rank beginner.

Do you realize how wonderful it is for the novice to have daily lessons on hearing intervals, keeping track of subtle differences?

They sure don't post the like over on the pianist or piano corners of the forum.

This is the place I come for that, and it's extremely valuable for me to hear these things... ear training, a lesson a day.

I do appreciate this thread.

Forrest
Posted by: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/14/12 09:46 PM

Originally Posted By: woodog
This from a rank beginner.

Do you realize how wonderful it is for the novice to have daily lessons on hearing intervals, keeping track of subtle differences?

They sure don't post the like over on the pianist or piano corners of the forum.

This is the place I come for that, and it's extremely valuable for me to hear these things... ear training, a lesson a day.

I do appreciate this thread.

Forrest


Great. Put it in a thread without a misleading title.

Kees
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/14/12 11:29 PM


I am sorry for making some members not happy.

In my understanding, talking about practical method is the original intention of this thread. Its state on the first post.

I began practice this tuning method and keeping on nearly daily post some months ago, no one told me my posts are spam.

Tuning thirds progressive is not the only objective of C.HA.S. In C.HA.S, thirds and fourths are progressive, fifths are regressive to near pure. Its near Pythagorean tuning. This is an novice understanding. Correct me if I am wrong.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/15/12 12:38 AM

Quote:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-13-oct-2012
..."B3-D#4 sounds strange"...

Very good, you have improved your previous tuning, nothing wrong with B3-D#4.


A3-C#4 OK,
A#3-D4: slow
B3-D#4: OK
C4-E4: Slow
C#4-F3: slow
D4-F#4 OK
D#4-G4: OK
G4-G#4 slow, near pure
F4-A4 slow

A3-A4 may too narrow.

Quote:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-13-oct-2012
..."D#4-G#4 sounds strange"...

D#4-G#4 is too just, as for the rest I'll wait for your review.


A3-D4 ok.
A#3-D#4, B3-E4, C4-F4: progressive but too fast.

C#4-F#4: OK, may be too slow.
D4-G4, D#4-G#4 sloer.

Quote:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-13-oct-2012
..."A#3-F4 seems very fast."...

Very good, A#3-F4 is a bit too narrow, check C#4-F4... sweet. If you like, review this too.


A3-E4 OK
A#3-F4 very fast, better say its third
B3-E4: same as above
C4-G4: near pure, too just
C#4-G#4: Move too soon, too narrow
D4-A4: OK, but reversed.

Need to improve hammer skill. Keeping steady slow move can hear the change in tone.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/15/12 03:10 AM

Hi,

This is the third pass. I had micro moved some pins. Wait until tomorrow to check the stability.

The octave interval named base to avoid the irritating key word CHAS.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-oct-2012

I found keep a longer distance from the string to my ears, I can hear voices of two notes blended together.
Posted by: Silverwood Pianos

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/15/12 09:53 AM


Originally Posted By: woodog

This from a rank beginner.
Do you realize how wonderful it is for the novice to have daily lessons on hearing intervals, keeping track of subtle differences?
They sure don't post the like over on the pianist or piano corners of the forum.
This is the place I come for that, and it's extremely valuable for me to hear these things... ear training, a lesson a day.
I do appreciate this thread.
Forrest


There is no reason to justify why you are here Forrest. Just continue to learn in the way that you wish to, by reading here and comparing your work. I am sure there are others doing the same but remain silent.

Originally Posted By: Weiyan

I am sorry for making some members not happy.
In my understanding, talking about practical method is the original intention of this thread. Its state on the first post.
I began practice this tuning method and keeping on nearly daily post some months ago, no one told me my posts are spam.
Tuning thirds progressive is not the only objective of C.HA.S. In C.HA.S, thirds and fourths are progressive, fifths are regressive to near pure. Its near Pythagorean tuning. This is an novice understanding. Correct me if I am wrong.


It is not necessary for you to apologize to anyone for your postings Weiyan. Just ignore the postings from the self-anointed moderators of the world who have nothing constructive to offer.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/17/12 05:13 AM


Thanks for your clearity, Dan.

- . - . - . -

Hi Weiyan,

Let's see your own review, my comment in brackets.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-13-oct-2012

A3-C#4: OK, (yes, it sounds Ok but it is sweet, more tipical for a lower third)
A#3-D4: slow (faster/better than previous)
B3-D#4: OK (yes)
C4-E4: Slow (Ok)
C#4-F4: slow (slow/sweeter than previous)
D4-F#4 OK (yes)
D#4-G4: OK (yes)
G4-G#4 slow, near pure (check, it's only sweeter than previous)
F4-A4 slow (yes)

A3-A4 may too narrow. (yes)

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-13-oct-2012

A3-D4 ok. (slow, too close to just)
A#3-D#4, B3-E4, C4-F4: progressive but too fast. (not progressive, A#3-D#4 is much too fast)

C#4-F#4: OK, may be too slow. (fast)
D4-G4, D#4-G#4 sloer. (yes, too slow, also E4-A4)

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-13-oct-2012

A3-E4 OK (yes, very nice)
A#3-F4 very fast, better say its third (simply a little fast)
B3-E4: same as above (Ok, nice)
C4-G4: near pure, too just (Ok, nice)
C#4-G#4: Move too soon, too narrow (check second (simultaneous) playing... quite nice)
D4-A4: OK, but reversed. (yes, little too narrow)

You wrote:..."Need to improve hammer skill. Keeping steady slow move can hear the change in tone."...

Yes, slowly move your hammer... follow the beat-rythm, feel the pin, its torsion, how it is bending... you want to evaluate and control those forces in order to counter-charge each pin.

Next:

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Hi,

This is the third pass. I had micro moved some pins. Wait until tomorrow to check the stability.

The octave interval named base to avoid the irritating key word CHAS.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-oct-2012

I found keep a longer distance from the string to my ears, I can hear voices of two notes blended together.


The base is much better, D4 is a little high, which is good (!), you would remember that and adjust it later. The same for A4, it is a little too wide and you would adjust that later.

The thirds progression is quite impressive, very good indeed... "Hair" review the above, a nice challenge.

- . - . - . -

Forrest, if you like, you too can be active here.

- . - . - . -

Have a nice day, a.c.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/24/12 12:02 AM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Thanks for your clearity, Dan.

- . - . - . -

Hi Weiyan,

Let's see your own review, my comment in brackets.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-13-oct-2012

A3-C#4: OK, (yes, it sounds Ok but it is sweet, more tipical for a lower third)
A#3-D4: slow (faster/better than previous)
B3-D#4: OK (yes)
C4-E4: Slow (Ok)
C#4-F4: slow (slow/sweeter than previous)
D4-F#4 OK (yes)
D#4-G4: OK (yes)
G4-G#4 slow, near pure (check, it's only sweeter than previous)
F4-A4 slow (yes)

A3-A4 may too narrow. (yes)

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-13-oct-2012

A3-D4 ok. (slow, too close to just)
A#3-D#4, B3-E4, C4-F4: progressive but too fast. (not progressive, A#3-D#4 is much too fast)

C#4-F#4: OK, may be too slow. (fast)
D4-G4, D#4-G#4 sloer. (yes, too slow, also E4-A4)

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-13-oct-2012

A3-E4 OK (yes, very nice)
A#3-F4 very fast, better say its third (simply a little fast)
B3-E4: same as above (Ok, nice)
C4-G4: near pure, too just (Ok, nice)
C#4-G#4: Move too soon, too narrow (check second (simultaneous) playing... quite nice)
D4-A4: OK, but reversed. (yes, little too narrow)

You wrote:..."Need to improve hammer skill. Keeping steady slow move can hear the change in tone."...

Yes, slowly move your hammer... follow the beat-rythm, feel the pin, its torsion, how it is bending... you want to evaluate and control those forces in order to counter-charge each pin.

Next:

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Hi,

This is the third pass. I had micro moved some pins. Wait until tomorrow to check the stability.

The octave interval named base to avoid the irritating key word CHAS.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-oct-2012

I found keep a longer distance from the string to my ears, I can hear voices of two notes blended together.


The base is much better, D4 is a little high, which is good (!), you would remember that and adjust it later. The same for A4, it is a little too wide and you would adjust that later.

The thirds progression is quite impressive, very good indeed... "Hair" review the above, a nice challenge.

- . - . - . -

Forrest, if you like, you too can be active here.

- . - . - . -

Have a nice day, a.c.


Listen to the sound file again, still need to improve a lot.

BASE:
A3-E4, E4-A4 too just.
A3-D4, D4-A4 OK
A3-A4: OK.

Thirda
A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: fast
B3-D#4: OK
C4-E4: seems slow. May be the string has problem, not easy to hear.
C#4-F4: OK
D4-F#4: Slow
D#4-G4: OK
E4-G#4: OK
F4-A4: slow.

Fourths:
A3-D4: OK
A#3-D#4: Slow
B3-E4: OK
C4-F4: OK
C#4-F#4: slow, beats same as above.
D4-G4: Slow
D#4-G#4: OK
E4-A4: slow

Fifths:
A3-E4: too just
A#3-F4, B3-F#4, C4-G4, C#4-G#4, E4-A4 OK.

Hammer skill. A major obstacle need to overcome.

Thanks.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/24/12 10:07 PM

Micro adjusted some interval yesterday.

Hear to the piano directly. The sound file have different perception and there may some pitch change in these few days.

This exercise aimed at the micro hammer technique.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-24-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-24-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-24-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-24-oct-2012
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/30/12 09:00 AM


Hi Weiyan,

Let's see your self review, my comment in brackets:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-oct-2012

BASE:
A3-E4, E4-A4 too just. (A3-E4 is Ok, E4-A4 is a bit wide)
A3-D4, D4-A4 OK (A3-D4 is a bit wide, D4-A4 is Ok)
A3-A4: OK.(a bit wide, perfect to begin with)

Thirds
A3-C#4: OK (yes)
A#3-D4: fast (Ok)
B3-D#4: OK (yes)
C4-E4: seems slow. May be the string has problem, not easy to hear. (Ok, tense)
C#4-F4: OK (Ok, sweeter than previous)
D4-F#4: Slow (yes)
D#4-G4: OK (yes, tense)
E4-G#4: OK (yes)
F4-A4: slow. (yes, a little bit)

Fourths:
A3-D4: OK (yes)
A#3-D#4: Slow (yes, too just)
B3-E4: OK (yes, a little too wide - see C4-E4)
C4-F4: OK (yes, a little slow)
C#4-F#4: slow, beats same as above. (yes)
D4-G4: Slow (not sure)
D#4-G#4: OK (yes)
E4-A4: slow (yes, A4 has gone down)

Fifths:
A3-E4: too just (this is Ok)
A#3-F4, (too just - see F4-A4) B3-F#4 (Ok), C4-G4 (a hair too just), C#4-G#4 (Ok), E4-A4 OK (a hair too narrow (*)).

(*): Try to invert the above fifths progression.

- . - . - . -

As you can see, you have done very well. I'm very impressed and I would say... Do trust your ear, compare (as a reference) the beat rate of adiacent intervals, relate your hammer and whole body to beats. "Hammer skill" takes time, micro-adjustements will help for both beat-curves and unisons.

If you like, you could add the recordings of higher octaves and 10ths, like A3-C#5, up to the first 12th (A3-E5). Make sure the outer strings are well-muted. And train your "beat-map" memory, so that you may be able to correct two (or more) intervals with only one move.

Next:

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Micro adjusted some interval yesterday.

Hear to the piano directly. The sound file have different perception and there may some pitch change in these few days.

This exercise aimed at the micro hammer technique.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-24-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-24-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-24-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-24-oct-2012


You wrote:..."there may some pitch change in these few days."...

Actually, pitch changes occour also while we are tuning, for this reason you may prefer to stay a little bit... higher... as long as you remember where.

When ever, you may review the above.

Best regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/01/12 02:28 AM

Sorry for not review last tuning.

For preparation of higher octave, retune the temperament and add two more test.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-1-nov-2012

A3-C#4, A3-F#4, D4-F#4. Should they progressive in C.HA.S?
A forum friend suggest this test. Not sure if this test valid for C.HA.S.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/3th-6th-test-1-nov-2012

Four sixths within A3-A4. They should be progressive.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sixths-1-nov-2012

Not review above tuning yet. Going to higher octaves and post tenths later.

Thank you.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/01/12 03:14 AM

Tuned the octaves up to G#4-G#5
A4 drop down a little before tuning the rest.

Octaves from F3-F4 to G#4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-1-nov-2012

Tenths from F3-A4 to E4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/tenths-1-nov-2012

Fifths from F3-C4 to C#5-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-f3-c-5-1-nov-2012


Edit:
The method for tuning the octaves is tune it as wide as possible and sense the tone like A3-A4. Then record the tests after tuning.

Thank you.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/14/12 02:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Sorry for not review last tuning.

For preparation of higher octave, retune the temperament and add two more test.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-1-nov-2012

A3-C#4, A3-F#4, D4-F#4. Should they progressive in C.HA.S?
A forum friend suggest this test. Not sure if this test valid for C.HA.S.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/3th-6th-test-1-nov-2012

Four sixths within A3-A4. They should be progressive.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sixths-1-nov-2012

Not review above tuning yet. Going to higher octaves and post tenths later.

Thank you.


Hi Weiyan,

Let's see the above recordings:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-1-nov-2012

Yes, A3-A4 is a bit too wide, but it is better a-bit-too-wide than any narrow octave. Nice A3-E4 (a hair too narrow), E4-A4 is fast but... you would remember that and adjust A4 later. A3-D4, make it a hair wider... D4-A4 might be reversed.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-1-nov-2012

All together you have done well, please listen to the first five thirds and comment.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-1-nov-2012

Ok, in general. I am sure you too can spot fourths that are too close-to-just or too wide. Do you want to try?

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-1-nov-2012

Nice job. You can hear they are quite similar.. (apart from A3-E4 and D4-A4) now it gets challenging, you want to hear that both fourths and fifths are progressive. Fourths progressive-wider, fifths progressive closer to "just". Let these intervals "sound" a little bit longer and do not hesitate, evaluate how the interval's sound evolves and, in case, make your correction. To get it "dirty" or "exact" takes the same time! Stay a hair on the "tense-salty" side and map your small pitch approximations in your mind.

You wrote:..."A3-C#4, A3-F#4, D4-F#4. Should they progressive in C.HA.S?
A forum friend suggest this test. Not sure if this test valid for C.HA.S.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/3th-6th-test-1-nov-2012 "...

I never compare intervals in that way, I evaluate every single interval's beat-curve and its chromatic progression. Of course, D4-F#4 will be faster than A3-C#4.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sixths-1-nov-2012

Well, not bad. Would you like to comment (faster/slower)?

Tomorrow... 10ths and your latest posting.

When will those lovely birds be back?

Have a nice day, a.c.
.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/15/12 08:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Tuned the octaves up to G#4-G#5
A4 drop down a little before tuning the rest.

Octaves from F3-F4 to G#4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-1-nov-2012

Tenths from F3-A4 to E4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/tenths-1-nov-2012

Fifths from F3-C4 to C#5-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-f3-c-5-1-nov-2012

Edit:
The method for tuning the octaves is tune it as wide as possible and sense the tone like A3-A4. Then record the tests after tuning.

Thank you.


Hello,

Let's see:

Octaves from F3-F4 to G#4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-1-nov-2012

Well done, in general. If I were to refer to my musical ear, I may say that none of the above octaves sounds offensive. In fact, also with octaves, our ear is fairly good-tempered and may not complain for small approximations. But then, when we play complex chords.. approximations can/will add up, so reducing the harmoniousness of the whole. Let's focus on how the beat appears, on "when" beats show up; you may check from F3-F4 to C4-C5 and let me know what you hear.

Tenths from F3-A4 to E4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/tenths-1-nov-2012

G3-B4 is much faster than previous, G#3-C5 is slower than previous... I am sure you can hear that. Would you like to review the rest?

From C4-E5, where beats get very fast, you may evaluate sweet/calm // sour/tense. Normally, when I get to E5 I stop comparing chromatic 10ths and evaluate the first 12th (A3-E5): considering centre-string, we want the octaves and 10ths "correct" progression lead to/confirm A3-E5 "just" (as a practical/general case), i.e. apparently no-beating. 12ths are not difficult to evaluate and can indicate the stretch-curve we are choosing. You only need to remember that, after left/right string unisons, you may get a variation in pitch. Try to anticipate that variation by choosing the appropriate stretch for all intervals.

Fifths from F3-C4 to C#5-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-f3-c-5-1-nov-2012

I do not think we need to review that. Now I'd rather say this: when expanding my partition towards the bass, I mainly relate 4ths, 5ths and octaves and check the thirds and 10ths progressions. When expanding towards the trebles, I use octaves (and perhaps fifths) up to C#5; then I relate C#4-C#5 (and previous octaves) to A3-C#5, this works as the first octave-stretch indication; then octaves and 10ths, up to E5; then octaves and 12ths, up to A5, where I can also check the 12th/15th relationship.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/31/12 10:03 AM

Thank you.

I am still improving my tuning.

This is my last tuning for the year 2012:
forget to record the base.

A3-A4 with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 test
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/a3-a4-28-dec-2012

Thirds
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-28-dec-2012

Fourths
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-28-dec-2012

Fifths
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-28-dec-2012

Use check points in between the tuning. This is near one pass tuning.

A4->A3, check M3/M10, M3/m6 make sure its wider octave
A3->E4, Check
A3->D4, E4-A4 faster than A3-D4, D4-A4 calmer than A3-E4
E4->B3, compare with A3-D4, E4-A4
B3->F#4, Evaluate A3-F#4,
F#4->C#4, Evaluate A3-C#4, also compare with A3-F#4
C#4->G4, compare A3-F#4, B3-G#4, should progressive
G#4->D#4, evaluate the thirds
D#4->A#3, evaluate the thirds
A#3->F4, evaluate the thirds available. F4-A4 is fastest, but can still hear the beat rate.
F4->C4,
D4->G4,

Best wishes and have a year with harmony.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/12/13 01:13 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Thank you for your wishes... indeed, be this 2013 a year with harmony.

I have listened to the last recordings and would like to make sure that you can notice the same, as I do. Please, let me know.

Thirds go Ok/slower/faster/slower etc...;

Fifths: A3-E4 sounds fine, also D4-A4 is Ok; in general, try to keep the others (beat-wise) in between, progressive; C4-G4 and C#4-G#4 are too narrow;

Fourths:
A3-D4 is slow, make it (at least) 1 bps, better a hair wider, you will correct later on;
A#3-D#4 beats too much;
B3-E4 is too still, etc...

Originally Posted By: Weiyan


A3-A4 with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 test
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/a3-a4-28-dec-2012

Thirds
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-28-dec-2012

Fourths
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-28-dec-2012

Fifths
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-28-dec-2012

Use check points in between the tuning. This is near one pass tuning.

A4->A3, check M3/M10, M3/m6 make sure its wider octave
A3->E4, Check
A3->D4, E4-A4 faster than A3-D4, D4-A4 calmer than A3-E4
E4->B3, compare with A3-D4, E4-A4
B3->F#4, Evaluate A3-F#4,
F#4->C#4, Evaluate A3-C#4, also compare with A3-F#4
C#4->G4, compare A3-F#4, B3-G#4, should progressive
G#4->D#4, evaluate the thirds
D#4->A#3, evaluate the thirds
A#3->F4, evaluate the thirds available. F4-A4 is fastest, but can still hear the beat rate.



A3-A4, the M3/m6 test does not help my practice; go for beat spead and hammer control; tune A4 like D4, a hair wider;

B3->F#4, Evaluate A3-F#4, (add: place B3-F#4 in between A3-E4 /!/ D4-A4);
F#4->C#4, Evaluate A3-C#4, also compare with A3-F#4 (place F#4-C#4 in between A3-D4 /!/ E4-A4); do the same with all other ready-available (but temporary) intervals.

The Chinese New Year is February the 10th, I've discovered, more joy to come.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/29/13 07:32 AM

Thank you.

Harmony seems too far from here. The Gini coefficient is very high. The house price is sky high for a tuner. 27 tunings for 1ft sq floor area(gross, net useable area should at least discount 30%). For a 600 ft sq 20 years old apartment, 16200 tunings. If 1000 tunings per year, 16.2 years non stop working, no food, no drink, no traffic, no medicine, no inflation, then I can afford a flat.

For the CHAS tuning, I think its time to try different pianos. For on site tuning, the psychological state and the quality of the piano play important role.

Today I tuned a aKwai and have surplus time to take record. Will post on next post.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/29/13 08:36 AM

today I tune a Kawai K-5. This is second tuning. Half year ago I tuned it with Verituner.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octave-29-jan-2013
The A3-A4 octave, with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 testing.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, higher partial seems beats ok, lower partial seems beats very fast. Not sure if its false beat.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013
A3-C#5 OK
A#3-D4 OK
B3-D#4 slow, same as previous interval
C4-E4 faster than previous interval, actually its too slow
C#4-F4 fast
D4-F#4 ok
E4-g#4 fast
F4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-jan-2013
A3-D4 ok
A#3-D#4 little bit slow
B3-E4 beats same as previous, too slow
C4-F4 very fast. Had compromised F4 after recording
C#4-F#4 OK
D4-G4 OK
D#4-G#4 slow
E4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, refer to base
A#3-F4 OK
B3-F#4 OK
C4-G4 fast
C#4-G#4 initially ok, the tail has wave?????
D4-A4 OK

Thank you for comments
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/31/13 10:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
today I tune a Kawai K-5. This is second tuning. Half year ago I tuned it with Verituner.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octave-29-jan-2013
The A3-A4 octave, with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 testing.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, higher partial seems beats ok, lower partial seems beats very fast. Not sure if its false beat.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013
A3-C#5 OK
A#3-D4 OK
B3-D#4 slow, same as previous interval
C4-E4 faster than previous interval, actually its too slow
C#4-F4 fast
D4-F#4 ok
E4-g#4 fast
F4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-jan-2013
A3-D4 ok
A#3-D#4 little bit slow
B3-E4 beats same as previous, too slow
C4-F4 very fast. Had compromised F4 after recording
C#4-F#4 OK
D4-G4 OK
D#4-G#4 slow
E4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, refer to base
A#3-F4 OK
B3-F#4 OK
C4-G4 fast
C#4-G#4 initially ok, the tail has wave?????
D4-A4 OK

Thank you for comments


Hi Weiyan,

In general, you have done a very good job.

Before we go on with other details, I need your answer (from my previous post, third line):

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hi Weiyan,

Thank you for your wishes... indeed, be this 2013 a year with harmony.

I have listened to the last recordings and would like to make sure that you can notice the same, as I do. Please, let me know.

Thirds go Ok/slower/faster/slower etc...;

Fifths: A3-E4 sounds fine, also D4-A4 is Ok; in general, try to keep the others (beat-wise) in between, progressive; C4-G4 and C#4-G#4 are too narrow;

Fourths:
A3-D4 is slow, make it (at least) 1 bps, better a hair wider, you will correct later on;
A#3-D#4 beats too much;
B3-E4 is too still, etc...




If possible, let me know if you can hear what I hear. Let me know what you do not notice, and if some intervals are easier (for you to evaluate) than others. This will help me decide how and where to direct your attention.

About the Gini coefficient, also in Milan, perhaps like in Paris or London, it is pretty hard... Anyway, perhaps that is only.. outer harmony.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/09/13 08:01 AM

Hi, today is last day of the year of dragon. A few hour later will be year of snake.

Regarding post #2013439

Fourths:
A3-D4: slow, near 0.5bps
A#3-D#4: Fast, near 2bps
B3-E4: Slow, 1bps
From B3-E4: The beat rates are progressive. Sicne B3-E4 is too slow, the whole range is slow.

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: Slow
B3-D#4: fast
C4-E4: Ok
C#4-F4: Fast
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: br same as previous interval
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok

Fifths:
A3-E4: too calm, should a hair wider
A#3-F4: near perfect fifth
B3-F#4: fast, this should be br for A3-E4
B3-F#4: fast
C4-G4: br same as previous interval, with the feel of progressive
C#4-G#4: OK
D4-A4: ok

Thanks

Best wishes for new year.
Kung Hei Fat Choi
恭 喜 發 財
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/10/13 09:38 AM


Hi Weiyan,

I wish you and your family all the best, and... be this '13 "snake's" a very special year for all of us.

I will soon be back to your technical comments.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/13/13 07:50 PM

Hi Alfred,

Happy New Year and best wishes in this year of Snake.

Regards
Weiyan
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/16/13 01:38 PM

Hi Weiyan,

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Hi, today is last day of the year of dragon. A few hour later will be year of snake.

Regarding post #2013439

Fourths:
A3-D4: slow, near 0.5bps
A#3-D#4: Fast, near 2bps
B3-E4: Slow, 1bps
From B3-E4: The beat rates are progressive. Sicne B3-E4 is too slow, the whole range is slow.

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: Slow
B3-D#4: fast
C4-E4: Ok
C#4-F4: Fast
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: br same as previous interval
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok

Fifths:
A3-E4: too calm, should a hair wider
A#3-F4: near perfect fifth
B3-F#4: fast, this should be br for A3-E4
B3-F#4: fast
C4-G4: br same as previous interval, with the feel of progressive
C#4-G#4: OK
D4-A4: ok

Thanks

Best wishes for new year.
Kung Hei Fat Choi
恭 喜 發 財


Fourths (my comment between brackets):
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-28-dec-2012

A3-D4: slow, near 0.5bps (yes)
A#3-D#4: Fast, near 2bps (yes)
B3-E4: Slow, 1bps (please note, this is slower than A3-D4)
From B3-E4: The beat rates are progressive. Sicne B3-E4 is too slow, the whole range is slow. (C#4-F#4 is much faster than C4-F4, E4-A4 is much faster than D#4-G#4)

Thirds (my comment between brackets):
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-28-dec-2012

A3-C#4: OK (yes)
A#3-D4: Slow (yes)
B3-D#4: fast (yes)
C4-E4: Ok (this is sweet/slow - it sounds sweeter than A3-C#4
C#4-F4: Fast (yes, very much)
D4-F#4: slow (yes, sloweer than C#4-F4, but quite Ok)
D#4-G4: br same as previous interval (yes, quite Ok)
E4-G#4: Ok (Ok)
F4-A4: Ok (sweeter than E4-G#4)

Fifths (my comment between brackets):
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-28-dec-2012

A3-E4: too calm, should a hair wider (E4 should go "a hair" up, you also improve C4-E4 and E4-A4)
A#3-F4: near perfect fifth (yes, near perfect, this is how 5ths should sound; this one is quite good)
B3-F#4: fast, this should be br for A3-E4 (please, double check, this is quite good, perhaps B3 can go up a bit, as E4)
C4-G4: br same as previous interval, with the feel of progressive (please, double check,
almost 2 bps, C4 can go down a bit?)
C#4-G#4: OK (check, slower than C4-G4 but too narrow - G#4 can go up a bit?)
D4-A4: ok (too much movement, too narrow, this really must be "near perfect")

- . - . - . -

Very good, Weiyan. Now, in general, we will remember that "progressive" must be "smooth", and chromatic intervals "progress" differently. The beat rate of chromatic Thirds, for example, accelerate sensibly between F3-A3 and C4-E4.

And now, if you like, we can also address wider intervals, like 6ths, octaves, 10ths and 12ths. Be confident, your ear can "read" beats very well, and you want to refine your "eye" for drawing a wider beat-map and correct consequently. So doing we will temper the form.

Next:

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
today I tune a Kawai K-5. This is second tuning. Half year ago I tuned it with Verituner.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octave-29-jan-2013
The A3-A4 octave, with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 testing.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, higher partial seems beats ok, lower partial seems beats very fast. Not sure if its false beat.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013
A3-C#5 OK
A#3-D4 OK
B3-D#4 slow, same as previous interval
C4-E4 faster than previous interval, actually its too slow
C#4-F4 fast
D4-F#4 ok
E4-g#4 fast
F4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-jan-2013
A3-D4 ok
A#3-D#4 little bit slow
B3-E4 beats same as previous, too slow
C4-F4 very fast. Had compromised F4 after recording
C#4-F#4 OK
D4-G4 OK
D#4-G#4 slow
E4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, refer to base
A#3-F4 OK
B3-F#4 OK
C4-G4 fast
C#4-G#4 initially ok, the tail has wave?????
D4-A4 OK

Thank you for comments


Thank you. Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/19/13 04:01 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Let's check:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octave-29-jan-2013
The A3-A4 octave, with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 testing."...

That's fine. As mentioned, I do not use the M3/m6 test.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, higher partial seems beats ok, lower partial seems beats very fast. Not sure if its false beat."...

The octave is Ok;
A3-E4: almost 1 bps, can be closer to just; if possible, record longer (for both of us and others), double the time; lower partials are louder and here they are slower than high partials (3 bps, like E4-A4);
A3-D4: too just, no beat
D4-A4: inverted? Double check, always;

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013

Weiyan, right now I must leave, but I'll be back soon.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/20/13 02:27 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Here we go (my comment between brackets):

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013

A3-C#4 OK (yes)
A#3-D4 OK (slower than A3-C#4, I know you can hear that)
B3-D#4 slow, same as previous interval (yes)
C4-E4 faster than previous interval, actually it's too slow (yes, a bit sweet)
C#4-F4 fast (yes, fast-Ok)
D4-F#4 ok (yes)

Missed: D#4-G4... (Ok, sweeter than D4-F#4)

E4-G#4 fast (Ok)
F4-A4 ok (yes)

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-jan-2013

A3-D4 ok (too just)
A#3-D#4 little bit slow (too just, like A3-D4)
B3-E4 beats same as previous, too slow (yes, no beat as above)
C4-F4 very fast. Had compromised F4 after recording (well done)
C#4-F#4 OK (slow, make it a little bit faster than 1 bps)
D4-G4 OK (slow)
D#4-G#4 slow (better than D4-G4)
E4-A4 ok (yes)

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-jan-2013

A3-E4, refer to base (commented yesterday)
A#3-F4 OK (yes, F4 down a bit, as you did, all these fifth must "breathe")
B3-F#4 OK (as above, a hair too just)
C4-G4 fast (please, record fifths for longer time, 4 secs each)
C#4-G#4 initially ok, the tail has wave????? (yes, it beats about 2 bps)
D4-A4 OK (see previous post)

- . - . - . -

Few words, in general: be strict with the base, if you tune A3-E4 too narrow and A3-D4 too just... you cannot use two main references; beyond that, you are doing great and you are able to compare beats, even for "insidious" intervals.

On this, I suggest you to expand beyond the first 13 notes span, without expecting some "static perfection". On purpose, evaluate and make use of some approximations (on the "higher" side) - no more than what you can trace - and move up towards the trebles, double checking also the notes you have just tuned. Stay a little bit (a hair) higher, and remember that.. especially between C4 and C6 the pitch will more likely go down/flat.

Once you have tuned a larger span, you will be able to evaluate more easily how beats progress and their coherence, by checking intervals like chromatic 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths. More intervals make the beat-map more complex, and this is why I suggest you to exercise and refine your "wider" eye, try to visualize the beat-geometry in your mind.

I do not think a set of sounds can be "transferred" on a piano like if it was a decal (decalcomania), simply because the piano's structure and the strings are continuously moving, say "adjusting" in force of new tensions and loadings (and playing), especially during the act of tuning. I think I am dealing more with a dynamic phenomenon, with a growing form, something that is "becoming" under my eyes. I prefer to consider all the "adjustments" (that are going to take place) as part of a game… "who will have the last word" over the form?

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/25/13 10:49 AM

Hi Alredo,

Thank you.

Will try to expand the temperament to two octaves on next tuning.

This is today's exercise. The hammer skill improved. The listening and hammer movement dependent. In this tuning also try to align lower partial and higher partials.

Will post analysis tomorrow.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-25-feb-2013

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/13 10:14 AM

Self critic:
Base
A3-A4 two narrow.
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: slow
A3-D4: OK
D4-E4: fast

Fourths:
A3-D4: OK
A#3-D#4: OK
B3-E4: Slow
C4-F4: OK (begin to progressive, considered slow)
C#4-F#4: OK
D4-G4: fast
D#4-G#4: fast
Above two intervals: seems ok if listen to the piano. In the audio file they are very fast.
E4-A4: OK(compare to previous, should faster up to 2bps)

fifths
A3-E4: OK
A#3-F4: fast, for CHAS should tune fifths regressive
B3-F#4: OK
C4-G4: OK
C#4-G#4: OK
D3-A4: fast

Overall impression:
This is more likely a stander ET than C.HA.S.

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/01/13 10:03 AM

Hi Alfredo,

Re-arrange the tuning sequence. Tune temperament from F3-A4.
Firstly,
A3->E4, A3->D4,
then E4->B3,
Tune the F temperament. Then tune the octave, align fifths to regressive br after A3-E4. I found F temperament is easier to tune. The strings in F temperament is longer so have larger hammer movement.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-1-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-1-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-1-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-1-mar-2013

Fifths from F3-C4 to D4-A4. The br progressive then regressive.
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-f-2-mar-2013

Octaves F3-F4 to A3-A4, octaves are marginal, not solid.
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-1-mar-2013

Thank you.
Weiyan
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/13 10:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Hi Alredo,

Thank you.

Will try to expand the temperament to two octaves on next tuning.

This is today's exercise. The hammer skill improved. The listening and hammer movement dependent. In this tuning also try to align lower partial and higher partials.

Will post analysis tomorrow.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-25-feb-2013

Regards,
Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

Below your "self critic" and my comments (between brackets):

Self critic:
Base
A3-A4 two narrow. (yes)
A3-E4: OK (yes, try to make it closer to just)
E4-A4: slow (yes)
A3-D4: OK (slow, try to make it wider, 1 bps)
D4-A4: fast (yes)

Fourths:
A3-D4: OK (slow, see base)
A#3-D#4: OK (slow)
B3-E4: Slow (yes)
C4-F4: OK, begin to progressive, considered slow; (OK)
C#4-F#4: OK (slow)
D4-G4: fast (yes)
D#4-G#4: fast (yes)
Above two intervals: seems ok if listen to the piano. In the audio file they are very fast.
E4-A4: OK, compare to previous, should faster up to 2bps; (slow, next time go for 2.5 bps)

fifths
A3-E4: OK (play/record fifths for longer... easier to evaluate, fifths must breathe, no real beating)
A#3-F4: fast, for CHAS should tune fifths regressive (correct)
B3-F#4: OK (too just, no breathing)
C4-G4: OK (fast, beating)
C#4-G#4: OK (as above)
D4-A4: fast (better than C4-G4 and C#4-G#4)

- . - . - . -

I have listened to your unisons and will post more, on hammer/lever and pin control. If possible, you may comment those thirds as well:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/03/13 04:08 AM

Quote:
I have listened to your unisons and will post more, on hammer/lever and pin control. If possible, you may comment those thirds as well:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013


A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: slow, near perfect
B3-D#4: same as above
C4-E4: fast
C#4-E#4: slow
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: fast.
E4-G#4: slow
F4-A4; slow

There are many slow beating thirds, does it mean that the octave is too narrow?

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/03/13 06:12 AM

Weivan, I am sorry to interfere in your discussion, but let me suggest that you need to master the tuning pin better, (work your unisons more).

I suspect that what you record and what you tuned may differ as you are not setting the pin well enough (so the wire and the pin may move immediately, and you record something different from your initial intention)

Learn first to set the pin really firmly and precisely, even on a not perfect unison aint the problem.

You must be able to bump on the hammer handle, relatively firmly) and have the note spring back exactly where it was (or eventually not move at all).

I see you feel some pin setting , but it is not well related to the wire work.

ALl the best. You seem to progress on intervals anyway...
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/03/13 06:51 AM

Issac,
Thank you.

I agree need to improve hammer skill.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/05/13 03:05 AM

Today's C.HA.S tuning session.

1. Use new hammer skill. Fast stroke and listen to attack. Push the lever until it has high friction. Then play again to evaluate beat rate with emphasis to attack. If not satisfy re-do the process.

2. Fourths have faster br.

3. Tune A3 from A4, not care the width of the octave. Correct A4 after finishing the intervals.

4. Follow the C.HA.S procedure, A3-A4 temperament. Then tune octaves down to F3. Evaluate beat rates of F temperament and make adjustment.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-5-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-5-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-5-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-5-mar-2013

Thank you.
Weiyan
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/05/13 05:41 AM

This is getting way better, I also seem to notice the tone is more crisp, due to a better pin setting ... (the tone is way more firmer and cleaner, when compared with older recordings , did you notice ?)


The first octave is so important I sometime have to correct it only after tuning a few notes.

My opinion : you should record the 5th and the 4ths in the same order than they are tuned.

That way it will be easier for you (and for others) to detect where the mistakes come from. Sometime we have one interval or one note that we hear less good than others. it is useful to know which one
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/05/13 08:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Olek
This is getting way better, I also seem to notice the tone is more crisp, due to a better pin setting ... (the tone is way more firmer and cleaner, when compared with older recordings , did you notice ?)


The first octave is so important I sometime have to correct it only after tuning a few notes.

My opinion : you should record the 5th and the 4ths in the same order than they are tuned.

That way it will be easier for you (and for others) to detect where the mistakes come from. Sometime we have one interval or one note that we hear less good than others. it is useful to know which one

Compare the base with last tuning, latest one is cleaner. Not sure this is due to firmer pin setting or better interval.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/05/13 10:18 PM

This is correction to 5-Mar-2013 tuning.

In last tuning, the thirds are fast/slow/fast/slow.....

Regarding br, if play the interval melodically, the br at the attack of second note is fast. Playing two notes simultaneously, its calmer.

The last sound clip is tuning sequence.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-6-mar-2013

Some words about hammering. When push the lever to a high friction point, evaluate the br. Then push with added force again, the pin may turn, or have crack sound. But the br change is none to little. The sound quality is cleaner. In some case the br change drastically need to retune.

Thank you
Weiyan
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/08/13 01:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Quote:
I have listened to your unisons and will post more, on hammer/lever and pin control. If possible, you may comment those thirds as well:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013


A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: slow, near perfect
B3-D#4: same as above
C4-E4: fast
C#4-E#4: slow
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: fast.
E4-G#4: slow
F4-A4; slow

There are many slow beating thirds, does it mean that the octave is too narrow?

Regards,
Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

Following yours, my comment (between brackets):

A3-C#4: OK (fast)
A#3-D4: slow, near perfect (slow, about 5 bps)
B3-D#4: same as above (faster than A#3-D4, about 7 bps)
C4-E4: fast (a hair sweeter/slower than B3-D#4)
C#4-E#4: slow (yes)
D4-F#4: slow (OK!)
D#4-G4: fast (sweet/slow)
E4-G#4: slow (yes)
F4-A4; slow (yes)

- . - . - . -

..."There are many slow beating thirds, does it mean that the octave is too narrow?"...

Yes, in a way. In fact if three thirds, f.e. A3-C#4-F4-A4 were "just", we would get a very narrow octave. In this sense, a narrow octave may induce and push you towards slow thirds; in other words, any wrong octave will either crush or over-stretch other intervals. And this works also the other way around, any wrong interval may cause a wrong octave. You understand that our tuning form is inter-related in absolute terms.

Tomorrow we will check your latest recordings and will deepen on sequence and hammer/pin control.

Isaac, thank you for partecipating.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/09/13 11:14 AM


Hi Weiyan,

The following video of yours was posted in the "Unison Tuning" thread. Let's see:

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
McMorro's all tuning is unison is enlightenment. I tried to tune the octave and two 4th 5th intervals. It seems have friction at some point. Not sure is psychological effect.

The octave not confirmed is too wide or too narrow. The intervals not confirm tempered in right direction, non the beat rate.



Regards,
Weiyan


First, you flatten A3... good;
- then you raise A3... pass the spot (0:11)... go sharp... make the pin turn CW at its bottom... good;
- then you flatten A3 towards the spot(*) and pass the spot (0:14)... this move is too fast, perhaps the pin turned again Anti-CW, no good (you already know);

(*)going towards the spot you must play and follow the beat rate, you must adhere to the speed of the beat, never loose contact;

at 0:15 A3 is about 3 bps flat;
at 0:24 you slow the beat down, you realise the pin is not charged and at 0:27 you raise A3 again... good; in between 0:15 and 0:24/0:27 nothing really happens, avoid that playing for nothing, save time;
at 0:30 you get close to the spot (*);
at 0:32 you hear about 1.5 bps (was A3 too flat or too sharp? (*)), at 0:34 the beat slows down and at 0:36 you move on A3-E4...

In general, after sharpening the pitch, while charging the pin (0:29), try to use both fingers and wrist, this increases your sensitivity and control onto the hammer;

while charging the pin, relate the force, the energy, the beat rate and your playing, so that you can feel, hear and control "how" the beat relates to the charge;
the force/energy onto the hammer should be progressive, less energy to take away the CW torque, more energy to establish the Anti-CW charge; remember that also some pin-bending occours, a slower movement will let you feel that better.

A3-E5 (edit: A3-E4)

You play 6 times before you actually start raising the pitch; avoid that, save noise;
at 0:45 you raise the pitch... good... you hear the spot at 0:46 and feel the pin's torsion... very very good!! this is how you evaluate how-much "over-raise";
at 0:46/47 you over-raise E4 and make the pin turn at its bottom... very good;
at 0:49 you start lowering the pitch and charging the pin;
between 0:50 and 0:53 you do not play, this is wrong and this is where you can improve (*): follow the beat rate while it goes down, say from 10 bps down, enjoy how the beat slows down, play in time with the beat, sing the beat in your mind, relate the (progressive) pin's charge, the energy onto the hammer and the beat, get to the spot aware of that... not abruptly.

Before going on, please let me know if the above is clear.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/09/13 12:38 PM

Hello all nice description on the moves, Weyan, I am too lazy to do such work , but this is very important, and I don t see how tuning learning could be better controled (without being on site)

It is amazing how we can understand what is going on, just by looking and listening, while not tuning ourselves...

About control, would not it be easier if Weiyan recorded the 5th abd 4 th cycles of the temperament ? I suggest we tend to leave some intervals larger. I know for instance I had problems with g5 for a long time, just an ear sensitivity question probably.

On all 4th and 5th temperaments I find differences depending of the tuner or the sequence, I was not able to investigate a lot but this was evident.

Those are sensitive subjects, when askingvwhat kind of tuning the colleagues realise it sound as obscene , as if I asked the colors of their underwear.

But I believe this come from the difficulty with analysis (envelope, power, projection. You can see the tuner in Pianomania, tweaking unisons and regulation to provide an adequate ambiance, (while it could suffice to propose different instruments, the budget is not the same)

Greetings

Posted by: rxd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/10/13 05:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Olek
...........


Those are sensitive subjects, when askingvwhat kind of tuning the colleagues realise it sound as obscene , as if I asked the colors of their underwear.

But I believe this come from the difficulty with analysis (envelope, power, projection. You can see the tuner in Pianomania, tweaking unisons and regulation to provide an adequate ambiance, (while it could suffice to propose different instruments, the budget is not the same)

Greetings



There is a reason for colleagues not speaking of tuning techniques, styles, etc.

Whenever anybody has mentioned anything remotely about tuning in this forum, take a close look at your reply.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/14/13 08:48 AM

Sorry for didn't notice there was feedback.

Alfredo,

Thank you. The explanation is very clear. Even I didn't realized what I did during the tuning session. Repeat playing without movement is due to not trusting my ear.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/14/13 10:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
This is correction to 5-Mar-2013 tuning.

In last tuning, the thirds are fast/slow/fast/slow.....

Regarding br, if play the interval melodically, the br at the attack of second note is fast. Playing two notes simultaneously, its calmer.

The last sound clip is tuning sequence.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-6-mar-2013

Weiyan

The Base:
A3-A4: Too narrow. Raise A4
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: slow
A3-D4: OK
D4-A4: fast

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3:D4: OK
B3-D#4: slow
C4-E4: Slow
C#4-F4: Slow, Faster than previous interval.
D4-F#4: OK
D#4-G4: OK
E4-G#4: slow, near perfect 3rd!
F4-A4: slow

Fourths
A3-D4: OK
A#3-D#4: OK
B3-E4: slow
C4-F4: slow
C#4-F#4: slow
D4-G4: fast
D#4-G#4: slow
E4-A4: slow

Fifths
A3-E4: ok
A#3-F4: too just
B3-F#4: slow
C4-G4: fast
C#4-G#4: ok
D4-A4: fast

Raise A4, F4, G#4,
Drop C4

The octave is too narrow so there are many calm thirds and fourths.

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/14/13 05:47 PM

Weiyan, you may have discussed this before but I am too lazy to go back though the thread: What is the CHAS method and sequence you use for tuning the temperament octave - 5ths, 4ths RBI checks etc etc?
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/14/13 09:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Weiyan, you may have discussed this before but I am too lazy to go back though the thread: What is the CHAS method and sequence you use for tuning the temperament octave - 5ths, 4ths RBI checks etc etc?


Chris Leslie, a joined this thread years after the starting of this thread.

The sequence:
A4->A3
A3->D4 1bps(D4-A4 near pure)
A4->E4 1.5beats/2sec (E4-A4 2bps)
E4->B3
B3->F#4
F#4->C#4
C#4->G#4
G#4->D#4
D#4->A#3
A#3->F4
F4->C4
D4->G4

Tne octave and first two intervals are call base.
Thirds and fourths progressive br.
Fifths regressive br. That begins at A3-E4 1.5b/2sec to near pure at D4-A4.

Pls. correct it if any mistake.

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/15/13 05:31 AM

Thanks Weiyan. I was just wondering if you use 3rds and 6ths as checks and guides during the sequence, or just to test afterwards. What does CHAS say about this?
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/15/13 05:39 AM

Similar relations, testing on FBI "proofs" of course allows to get the temperament.

correlations are to be well known, as for any tuning


Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/15/13 05:54 AM


Hi Chris,

You can visit:

http://www.chas.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=40&Itemid=38&lang=en

and download:

The Harmonic Temperament - C.Ha.S. - Aural Preparatory Tuning - Sequence Flowchart

Yes, also during the sequence you have to compare 4ths, 5ths, 3ds and (possibly) 6ths. Have a look at the flowchart (edit: Thanks to Ernest Unrau and Isaac Oleg) and let us know.

Weiyan,

Now I'm going to listen to your latest recordings and post some comments.

Regards, a.c.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/15/13 10:17 AM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hi Weiyan,

The following video of yours was posted in the "Unison Tuning" thread. Let's see:

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
McMorro's all tuning is unison is enlightenment. I tried to tune the octave and two 4th 5th intervals. It seems have friction at some point. Not sure is psychological effect.

The octave not confirmed is too wide or too narrow. The intervals not confirm tempered in right direction, non the beat rate.



Regards,
Weiyan


First, you flatten A3... good;
- then you raise A3... pass the spot (0:11)... go sharp... make the pin turn CW at its bottom... good;
- then you flatten A3 towards the spot(*) and pass the spot (0:14)... this move is too fast, perhaps the pin turned again Anti-CW, no good (you already know);

(*)going towards the spot you must play and follow the beat rate, you must adhere to the speed of the beat, never loose contact;

at 0:15 A3 is about 3 bps flat;
at 0:24 you slow the beat down, you realise the pin is not charged and at 0:27 you raise A3 again... good; in between 0:15 and 0:24/0:27 nothing really happens, avoid that playing for nothing, save time;
at 0:30 you get close to the spot (*);
at 0:32 you hear about 1.5 bps (was A3 too flat or too sharp? (*)), at 0:34 the beat slows down and at 0:36 you move on A3-E4...

In general, after sharpening the pitch, while charging the pin (0:29), try to use both fingers and wrist, this increases your sensitivity and control onto the hammer;

while charging the pin, relate the force, the energy, the beat rate and your playing, so that you can feel, hear and control "how" the beat relates to the charge;
the force/energy onto the hammer should be progressive, less energy to take away the CW torque, more energy to establish the Anti-CW charge; remember that also some pin-bending occours, a slower movement will let you feel that better.

A3-E5 (edit: A3-E4)

You play 6 times before you actually start raising the pitch; avoid that, save noise;
at 0:45 you raise the pitch... good... you hear the spot at 0:46 and feel the pin's torsion... very very good!! this is how you evaluate how-much "over-raise";
at 0:46/47 you over-raise E4 and make the pin turn at its bottom... very good;
at 0:49 you start lowering the pitch and charging the pin;
between 0:50 and 0:53 you do not play, this is wrong and this is where you can improve (*): follow the beat rate while it goes down, say from 10 bps down, enjoy how the beat slows down, play in time with the beat, sing the beat in your mind, relate the (progressive) pin's charge, the energy onto the hammer and the beat, get to the spot aware of that... not abruptly.

Before going on, please let me know if the above is clear.

Regards, a.c.


Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Sorry for didn't notice there was feedback.

Alfredo,

Thank you. The explanation is very clear. Even I didn't realized what I did during the tuning session. Repeat playing without movement is due to not trusting my ear.


Hi Weiyan,

Thanks for your feedback, try to relax your ear and do Not think "trust", your ear will refine "in time"; in general, concentrate more on your (most natural) breathing and arm/body posture.

Let's go on with the "base" video/recording for some addings.

A3-E4:

at 0:59 you raise E4... good; you then go towards the spot, but... is E4 flat? Remember, while charging the pin you must (slowly) pass the (pure/just) spot, so you make sure that E4 is flat;

at 1:10 you go onto A3-D4;

when you move your hammer, try to play only one time;

at 1:15 you flatten D4... good, be more delicate, you only need to uncharge the pin, and then raise;
at 1:17 you hear the spot and feel the pin, very very good!! you raise D4, good;
from 1:21 to 1:24/25 you charge the pin... good, next time make that slower; follow the beat closely, how the beat slows down.. until you can count/sing the beat, while still charging the pin, get the just-spot and release the hammer, check D4 (at least) 1/bps sharp; in that video is too close to just.

Please, have a look at the Pre-sequence (linked above)... A3-E4 is very little narrow, and after A#3-F4, I tune D4-G4 (close to E4-A4, in between the two adiacent fourths), and relate C4 to G4 and F4.

Next:

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
This is correction to 5-Mar-2013 tuning.

In last tuning, the thirds are fast/slow/fast/slow.....

Regarding br, if play the interval melodically, the br at the attack of second note is fast. Playing two notes simultaneously, its calmer.

The last sound clip is tuning sequence.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-6-mar-2013

Weiyan

The Base:
A3-A4: Too narrow. Raise A4
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: slow
A3-D4: OK
D4-A4: fast

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3:D4: OK
B3-D#4: slow
C4-E4: Slow
C#4-F4: Slow, Faster than previous interval.
D4-F#4: OK
D#4-G4: OK
E4-G#4: slow, near perfect 3rd!
F4-A4: slow

Fourths
A3-D4: OK
A#3-D#4: OK
B3-E4: slow
C4-F4: slow
C#4-F#4: slow
D4-G4: fast
D#4-G#4: slow
E4-A4: slow

Fifths
A3-E4: ok
A#3-F4: too just
B3-F#4: slow
C4-G4: fast
C#4-G#4: ok
D4-A4: fast

Raise A4, F4, G#4,
Drop C4

The octave is too narrow so there are many calm thirds and fourths.

Regards,
Weiyan


Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/16/13 02:10 AM

Thanks Alfredo. I was only wondering if Weiyan was actually doing the RBI checks during temperament setting and not afterwards.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/16/13 02:55 AM

I also wonderr that
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/16/13 06:48 AM


Hi Weiyan,

When you tune A3, make sure that A3-A4 is actually wide: once the A3-A4 pins are "charged", you can (delicately) exert some pression and see if the beat slows down or accelerates. This test is valid and due for any interval.

Tune E4 by relating it to both A3 and A4, you didn't do that (in the video (1:10)); you want the A3-E4-A4 relation, together with A3-D4-A4, at the beginning of the sequence, be your reference (temporarely) for continuing your procedure.

Tune D4 by relating it to both A3 and A4... Remember, it is not three intervals, A3-A4, A3-E4, A3-D4... It is "squaring five intervals", drafting their symmetric (A3-D4 Vs E4-A4) and overlapping (A3-E4 Vs D4-A4) relation, that's the meaning of the "base".

So doing, in between A3 and A4 you can rule the 4ths and 5ths (beat rate) extremities.

Before we go on, please confirm that the above is clear.

Thanks, Chris and Isaac.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/16/13 08:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Thanks Alfredo. I was only wondering if Weiyan was actually doing the RBI checks during temperament setting and not afterwards.


Surely do FBI checking when available. The first available is A3-F#4 sixth, then A3-C#4, B3-G#4, B3-D4. The progressiveness of these FBI not guarantee the intonation of the tuning for all of them are depend on B3-F#4. So there is always left the gap of C4-F4, C4-G4. Analysis these gap to decide if F#4 is too high or too low.

In coming days will focus on the base.

Should you share some of your experience?
Posted by: Chris Leslie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/16/13 10:33 PM

Thanks. Keep up the good momentum with Alfredo.
I would also establish a progressive sequence of M3rds, F3,A3,C#4,F4,A4, because that gives another base that works well as handles with your sequence. But that is just my preference.
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/16/13 11:19 PM

I believe the inconsistancies we her are due to Weyan just gttin the felling or pin setting lately. Good pin setting make the tone more pure, it is then easier to listen for beats.
So now it is taking place for you, Weyan.

You are right to work on temperament base, that first octave have to shine, it is not easy to get a feel for that.

(the standard test M3 M10 can help you at last to be sure he octave is in the good direction if you are unsure , but we take the habit to tune octaves directly, and look more in progressiveness than comparative checks that are sometime surprising (and make the ear tired sooner)
Any FBI is helping to be sure of tge slow intervals and octave.

Yes ladder of M3 is easier for listening to pogressiveness, but gives no idea of the octave size, which seem to be wher the trouble is.

Even with 4 th and 5th the octave can be secured, and it is particularely necessary with Chas, due to the pivot point .

Greetings
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/17/13 04:41 AM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hi Weiyan,

When you tune A3, make sure that A3-A4 is actually wide: once the A3-A4 pins are "charged", you can (delicately) exert some pression and see if the beat slows down or accelerates. This test is valid and due for any interval.

Tune E4 by relating it to both A3 and A4, you didn't do that (in the video (1:10)); you want the A3-E4-A4 relation, together with A3-D4-A4, at the beginning of the sequence, be your reference (temporarely) for continuing your procedure.

Tune D4 by relating it to both A3 and A4... Remember, it is not three intervals, A3-A4, A3-E4, A3-D4... It is "squaring five intervals", drafting their symmetric (A3-D4 Vs E4-A4) and overlapping (A3-E4 Vs D4-A4) relation, that's the meaning of the "base".

So doing, in between A3 and A4 you can rule the 4ths and 5ths (beat rate) extremities.

Before we go on, please confirm that the above is clear.

Thanks, Chris and Isaac.

Regards, a.c.
.


That is how the base, i.e. five beat-rates interweaved "all in one", help me define one more fundamental interval, the tone, in this case D4-E4.

In other words, the tone is the result of precise "proportions", the beat relations I have established between five beat frequencies, strictly interlaced.

These proportions involve 2:1 (the octave), 3:2 (the fifth) and 4:3 (the fourth), and those small numbers are employed in the Chas equality: (3-Delta)=(4+s*Delta)

From these premises - interweaving all intervals (and beat progressions) inside and outside the A3-A4 octave - you are enabled to reduce approximations and choose/adopt the most convenient pre-Form, whatever the size of the piano.

Thanks Isaac and Chris, I hope to be back this afternoon.

Have a nice Sunday, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/17/13 09:59 AM

Thank you for the comments.

This is 15-Mar, Friday's tuning. The tuning is prior to above comments.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-15-mar-2013

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-15-mar-2013

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-mar-2013

Below are interval from F3 to A4
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirdsf-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourthsf-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifthsf-15-mar-2013

The beat rate is changing after attack. Sometimes there are layers of beat rate: fundamental and higher partial have different beat rate. Focus at attack or sustain? Is it need to make fundamental and partial to same br? I personally believe partials beat together has cleaner interval.

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted by: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/17/13 01:41 PM

the octave is too short, seem to me (without headphones)

upper 4th no beat Lower 5th too much
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/22/13 07:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
This is correction to 5-Mar-2013 tuning.

In last tuning, the thirds are fast/slow/fast/slow.....

Regarding br, if play the interval melodically, the br at the attack of second note is fast. Playing two notes simultaneously, its calmer.

The last sound clip is tuning sequence.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-6-mar-2013

Weiyan

The Base:
A3-A4: Too narrow. Raise A4
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: slow
A3-D4: OK
D4-A4: fast

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3:D4: OK
B3-D#4: slow
C4-E4: Slow
C#4-F4: Slow, Faster than previous interval.
D4-F#4: OK
D#4-G4: OK
E4-G#4: slow, near perfect 3rd!
F4-A4: slow

Fourths
A3-D4: OK
A#3-D#4: OK
B3-E4: slow
C4-F4: slow
C#4-F#4: slow
D4-G4: fast
D#4-G#4: slow
E4-A4: slow

Fifths
A3-E4: ok
A#3-F4: too just
B3-F#4: slow
C4-G4: fast
C#4-G#4: ok
D4-A4: fast

Raise A4, F4, G#4,
Drop C4

The octave is too narrow so there are many calm thirds and fourths.

Regards,
Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

Let's proceed with your self-correction above (my comments between brackets), this is how you can develop and gain authonomy; we will check your March 15th recordings later on.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-6-mar-2013

The Base:
A3-A4: Too narrow. Raise A4 (Yes!)
A3-E4: OK (Yes, nice and very slow beat rate, always check.. narrow side)
E4-A4: slow (Yes)
A3-D4: OK (Slow, make it abour 1 bps)
D4-A4: fast (Yes)

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-mar-2013

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK (Yes, a little slow)
A#3:D4: OK (Yes, a bit fast, you want a smoother progression)
B3-D#4: slow (Yes, slow, about 7 bps)
C4-E4: Slow (?? let's check C4, I hear it too wide)
C#4-F4: Slow, Faster than previous interval. (Yes, slow, about 6 bps; faster than previous?)
D4-F#4: OK (Yes, Temporarely)
D#4-G4: OK (sensibly more tense than previous)
E4-G#4: slow, near perfect 3rd! (Yes, only slow/sweet)
F4-A4: slow (?? let's check F4)

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-mar-2013

Fourths
A3-D4: OK (Slow, see base)
A#3-D#4: OK (Fast, about 2 bps, ask YS, is this why A#3-D4 was fast?)
B3-E4: slow (I hear about 4 bps)
C4-F4: slow (Quite OK)
C#4-F#4: slow (Yes)
D4-G4: fast (Yes, about 4 bps)
D#4-G#4: slow(Faster than previous, about 6 bps)
E4-A4: slow (Yes, see base)

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-mar-2013

Fifths
A3-E4: ok (Yes, nice and correct)
A#3-F4: too just(Nice, as above)
B3-F#4: slow (Yes, shy, check narrow side and 5th breathing)
C4-G4: fast (Yes, check narrow/wide side, check C4-E4 as mentione above)
C#4-G#4: ok (Yes, always check narrow side)
D4-A4: fast (Yes, see base)

Raise A4, F4, G#4, (Yes, also A#3)
Drop C4 (Before that... correct D4, Double check G4 comparing also A3-F#4 and A#3-G4)

- . - . - . -

Very good, Weiyan, I see that most of your Self-critique is correct.

I will ask you to record the sequence in a different way.

Now, try to work on fourths: for instance you can compare three fourths on the same interval, by muting the three strings of the same note in turn.

For example, tune A3-D4, D4's mid-string, D4's left string muting the other two strings, and D4's right string;

On one string (remember which), tune A3-D4 pure, one close to pure/wide, and one close to pure/narrow;

Compare those three samples by listening to one sample at the time, this may help developping both "taste" (sweet/sour) and beat rate recognizing.

Now in Italy is spring... are those lovely birds coming back at yours anytime soon?

Regards, a.c.

Edit: From your latest post: ..."...Sometimes there are layers of beat rate: fundamental and higher partial have different beat rate. Focus at attack or sustain? Is it need to make fundamental and partial to same br? I personally believe partials beat together has cleaner interval."

For the time being, do not think about attack/sustain, go simply for the louder/most evident beat.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/26/13 09:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Thank you for the comments.

This is 15-Mar, Friday's tuning. The tuning is prior to above comments.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-15-mar-2013

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-15-mar-2013

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-mar-2013

Below are interval from F3 to A4
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirdsf-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourthsf-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifthsf-15-mar-2013

The beat rate is changing after attack. Sometimes there are layers of beat rate: fundamental and higher partial have different beat rate. Focus at attack or sustain? Is it need to make fundamental and partial to same br? I personally believe partials beat has cleaner interval.

Regards,
Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

Let's listen together to the above recordings.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-15-mar-2013

In general, considering beat rates, D4 and A4 may be both on the wrong side and, beat-wise, they would sound OK; remember always to make sure that the base-intervals are on the right side, wide octave and fourths, narrow fifths.

Let's see the thirds:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-mar-2013

Much better than previous tunings; please notice that A#3-D4 is much slower than A3-C#4, and D#4-G4 and F4-A4 are sweeter than previous 3rds. These are all clear indications that some other intervals can be improved as well. Then we have to check our tuning again, and in this case we have to first check A#3, D4, D#4, G4, F4 and A4.

A#3 may be too high (in pitch) (*)
D4 may be too low

D#4 may be too high
G4 may be too low

F4 may be too high
A4 may be too low

Let's check the sequence and map the beat rates, you would start refining the intervals that, more than others, sound wrong and/or improvable:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-15-mar-2013

B3-E3 is a bit fast... check B3-D#4... and D#4-G#4, this is beatless; here you would also compare with D4-G4 and E4-A4.

You know that, if D#4 is too high, perhaps A#3 will be too high ((*) see above); if A#3-F4 is just (check fifths), F4 will be too high; check C4-G4, it beats too much... and so on.

During the sequence, remember to compare the proceeding intervals - step by step - with your base-beat-references and interlace M6ths and thirds as soon as you can. Soon you will learn to compare intervals more strictly, you will be able to tune A#3 and notice if A3-C#4 and A#3-D4 and B3-D#4 are fairly progressive, otherwise you would go back and check again all previous steps.

Next time, if you like, when you record the sequence you can play also the "already tuned" intervals, for instance:

E4-B3, play (and compare) also A3-D4
B3-F#4, play (and compare) also A3-E4; play and evaluate A3-F#4
F#4-C#4, play also E4-B3 and E4-A4, so you can place that fourth (and 4ths progression) more correctly; evaluate A3-C#4 etc.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/01/13 09:19 PM

Thank you.

In coming days will focus on 5th and 4th. Tune each of the three string to fifth, as suggested in previous post. I found that my B3-F#4 are usually reversed. May need refinement on the hammer control.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/02/13 05:00 PM


Yes, Weiyan, "hammer control" and pin-charge Vs string-tension relationship.

Remember to be aware of your body posture, when you over-raise the pitch... be willing (in your mind) to make use of all your body.

Relax your ear, the beat will show up and tell you what to do; play together, in time with the beat, on the beat, and concentrate onto the pin: turn the pin clock-wise gently, evaluate pin torsion and bending, over-raise the pitch and charge the pin anti-clock-wise; better if you can stabilize the (temporary) pitch with a Forte blow.

What about those singing birds I heard at yours?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/04/13 10:00 PM

The birds are migrating here now. There are some birds singing. Make have more birds singing in next post. Cicadidae will sing in two months later. Few people can enjoy this music now.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/09/13 01:05 AM

This is the result of a two days tuning session.

Began yesterday morning. I wanted to sharpen hammer skill, so tune each interval and checked with Verituner. The octave style is 4:2. After tuning the temperament and base. I decided to modify the temperament to CHAS. Widen the A3-A4 first, then align the fifths and fourths with regular CHAS tuning sequence.

Today morning, checked the intervals and correct some mistakes.

Its raining this morning, so no birds singing. Some birds are singing now.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-apr-2013

EDIT
The first few stroke in the sequence is base. So no individual base sound file.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/09/13 05:31 AM


Well done, Weiyan.

I will be back as soon as possible.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/10/13 02:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
This is the result of a two days tuning session.

Began yesterday morning. I wanted to sharpen hammer skill, so tune each interval and checked with Verituner. The octave style is 4:2. After tuning the temperament and base. I decided to modify the temperament to CHAS. Widen the A3-A4 first, then align the fifths and fourths with regular CHAS tuning sequence.

Today morning, checked the intervals and correct some mistakes.

Its raining this morning, so no birds singing. Some birds are singing now.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-apr-2013

EDIT
The first few stroke in the sequence is base. So no individual base sound file.


Hello Weiyan,

I have listened to the above recordings, you have improved a lot, really.

The "hair" corrections that we need to make are getting thinner and thinner, so now I would like to check again what you yourself can hear, before addressing you further.

I say this because it could be the case that you only need to wait, until you develop a stricter sense of rhythm (for comparing beat rates) and/or a higher (self-control and) control of the tuning hammer.

Please, choose one of the samples you recorded, choose the interval that you find most difficult, and let me read your self-critique. After that, I will comment the rest.

As mentioned, add the first-octave expansion, add chromatic octaves, 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths and refine your mind-mapping of the beat curves, your power to interlace all intervals by tracing all relationships.

Thanks for giving me news about those lovely bird singing.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/17/13 10:57 AM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
This is the result of a two days tuning session.

Began yesterday morning. I wanted to sharpen hammer skill, so tune each interval and checked with Verituner. The octave style is 4:2. After tuning the temperament and base. I decided to modify the temperament to CHAS. Widen the A3-A4 first, then align the fifths and fourths with regular CHAS tuning sequence.

Today morning, checked the intervals and correct some mistakes.

Its raining this morning, so no birds singing. Some birds are singing now.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-apr-2013

EDIT
The first few stroke in the sequence is base. So no individual base sound file.


Hello Weiyan,

I have listened to the above recordings, you have improved a lot, really.

The "hair" corrections that we need to make are getting thinner and thinner, so now I would like to check again what you yourself can hear, before addressing you further.

I say this because it could be the case that you only need to wait, until you develop a stricter sense of rhythm (for comparing beat rates) and/or a higher (self-control and) control of the tuning hammer.

Please, choose one of the samples you recorded, choose the interval that you find most difficult, and let me read your self-critique. After that, I will comment the rest.

As mentioned, add the first-octave expansion, add chromatic octaves, 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths and refine your mind-mapping of the beat curves, your power to interlace all intervals by tracing all relationships.

Thanks for giving me news about those lovely bird singing.

Regards, a.c.
.


Sorry for reply late.

The thirds:

OK/slow/ok/slow/ok/slow/ok/ok/ok

fifths:
ok/pure/ok/pure(seems tense)/ok/ok

fourths:
ok/same as previous/ok/ok/ok/fast/pure/ok

The thirds problem had been observed after the tuning. Since had tuned the for two days, so left it until next tuning.

The difficulties:
The fifths regressiveness not sure. May due to the beat rate change so tiny.
Also not confident enough on my hammer skill to make such little correction.

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/24/13 12:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
This is the result of a two days tuning session.

Began yesterday morning. I wanted to sharpen hammer skill, so tune each interval and checked with Verituner. The octave style is 4:2. After tuning the temperament and base. I decided to modify the temperament to CHAS. Widen the A3-A4 first, then align the fifths and fourths with regular CHAS tuning sequence.

Today morning, checked the intervals and correct some mistakes.

Its raining this morning, so no birds singing. Some birds are singing now.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-apr-2013

EDIT
The first few stroke in the sequence is base. So no individual base sound file.


Hello Weiyan,

I have listened to the above recordings, you have improved a lot, really.

The "hair" corrections that we need to make are getting thinner and thinner, so now I would like to check again what you yourself can hear, before addressing you further.

I say this because it could be the case that you only need to wait, until you develop a stricter sense of rhythm (for comparing beat rates) and/or a higher (self-control and) control of the tuning hammer.

Please, choose one of the samples you recorded, choose the interval that you find most difficult, and let me read your self-critique. After that, I will comment the rest.

As mentioned, add the first-octave expansion, add chromatic octaves, 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths and refine your mind-mapping of the beat curves, your power to interlace all intervals by tracing all relationships.

Thanks for giving me news about those lovely bird singing.

Regards, a.c.
.


Sorry for reply late.

The thirds:

OK/slow/ok/slow/ok/slow/ok/ok/ok

fifths:
ok/pure/ok/pure(seems tense)/ok/ok

fourths:
ok/same as previous/ok/ok/ok/fast/pure/ok

The thirds problem had been observed after the tuning. Since had tuned the for two days, so left it until next tuning.

The difficulties:
The fifths regressiveness not sure. May due to the beat rate change so tiny.
Also not confident enough on my hammer skill to make such little correction.

Regards,
Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

Please find my comment below (between brackets):

The thirds:

OK............/slow..../ok.........../slow..../ok........../slow......../ok../ok../ok
(Ok-sweet//slower//Ok-sweet//slower//Ok-tense//Ok-tense//Ok//Ok//sweet)

fifths:
ok........./pure........./ok/pure(seems tense)/ok............../ok
(beating/almost just/Ok/faster, 1bps.+...../about 0.5bps/as previous)

fourths:
ok...../same as previous/ok......./ok........../ok../fast/pure..../ok
(slow/slow................./Ok-fast/fast 2bps/slow/fast/Ok-fast/Ok)

- . - . - . -

As you see, in most cases your self-correction is quite... correct! You can trust your ear and expand the first octave; keep in your mind (and map) any doubt, try to remember (perhaps) 2 or 3 intervals that you hear you may improve and check them by expanding more fifths, octaves and 10ths, 12ths....

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-9-apr-2013

The octave is too just;
A3-E4 too narrow;
E4-A4 Ok, next time raise both;
A3-D4 just;
D4-A4 too beating (reverse?)

..."The thirds problem had been observed after the tuning. Since had tuned the for two days, so left it until next tuning."...

That's good.

..."The difficulties:
The fifths regressiveness not sure. May due to the beat rate change so tiny.
Also not confident enough on my hammer skill to make such little correction."...

Yes, hammer-control and stable-pitch come with time, no problem. More important, concentrate on the pin, on its torsion, bending and turning, and going anti-clock-wise relate pitch with pin-charge with no hurry, follow the beat as it slows down and get to the spot.

Next time, if you like: base, fourths (up to F4-A#4), octaves, 10ths and 12ths.

Lots of bird singing here too..

Regards,

Alfredo
Posted by: Johnkie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/24/13 02:30 PM

Hi weiyan - although I have not been active with you on this thread, I have none the less been following your progress. It is such a pleasure to see someone so dedicated to improvement as your good self ....never giving up and trying to achieve perfection.

I think you can be very proud of how far you have come, and further more ....... how good you have become! There are not many tuners about that could attain your new found skill standards. Well done ..... you have but a short way too go to achieve perfection ..... and I think ..... you will !!

Sincere best wishes,
John
Posted by: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 05/03/13 02:38 AM

John, thank you for your words of encouragement.

Alfredo, thank you.
I am back and will submit new tuning next week. I had rhyroplasty operation last week. Its 90% success, the remain 1% still make me silent. Will have follow up operation one or two months later.

The whether is not stable it. Its supposed to be hot in this season, but its cold. The birds flue in China make people fear of birds singing.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 05/03/13 11:54 AM


Hi Weiyan,

I hope it was not too painful, my eldest son had to go through a similar thing and I know that is a very sensitive area.

My best wishes for a fast recovery,

Alfredo
.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/26/13 08:42 AM


Hi All,

Not long ago, someone was asking indirectly what pre-tuning meant, and I think I owe the answer: it means preparatory tuning and it refers to this thread and to a part of its contents.

Below, I am tracing a post by rxd, which I think is worth a comment, for better or worse:

Re: Up a 3rd, Up a 3rd, Down a 5th vs 4ths and 5ths Sequences [Re: UnrightTooner]
#2201636 - December 23, 2013 03:11 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
The trouble with using SBI's is that nobody, but nobody, even those who stake their reputations on tuning by fifths, ever sustains the notes for five seconds while waiting patiently for three beats (or whatever it is) to present themselves. Only to tediously repeat those five seconds with each and every fifth however many times it takes to get it right.

Fifths and octaves or the more compact fifths and fourths was intended for musicians who probably couldn't hear the subtleties of thirds to roughly tune their own instruments before the main event of practicing.

The more sophisticated methods were developed by tuners for whom tuning is the main event.

An RBI can be tuned 'on the fly' with the beat rate established and the pin set with one blow lasting a second or less.

It is transpiring that while most tuners can now hear major thirds, there may be many who cannot hear, or have never thought of using or referencing minor thirds in tuning.

{{At this stage, I had thought that contiguous minor thirds may be too complex but, just spur of the moment, I thought of using A-F# then A-C-D#, then using D#-F# Maj sixth as a check then refining the C but this still will always have one note tuned vicariously}}.

As I said about twelve posts ago, before that memorable graph debacle, it is possible to tune more than half of the temperament octave with direct reference to only the starting note.
If there is a mistake, it can not possibly be cumulative and there are more than enough cross checks between the first half dozen or so notes to ensure complete accuracy and cohesiveness.
Yes, it requires tuners to have a comprehensive knowledge of the temperament scale on decent pianos to accomplish it and it might not be a good teaching method.

Alrhough i don't always use it, this method has seemed to me to be the most logical answer to the age old problem of cumulative errors and the tedious backtracking to correct them.

It was thought necessary, in WT's to use a cumulative series of fifths and octaves to arrive at a progressive harmonic relative purity of the major and minor keys towards the tonal centre. It works well that way but such a progression is totally unnecessary in ET.

I find it incongruous that a proponent of WT's has abandoned tuning exclusively by fourths and fifths whereas at least one of the main voices opposing WT's still argues for this now archaic and unreliable system of fourths and fifths.


By reading that Topic and the above post I get the idea that RBI's and SBI's are still considered separately, as if we could tune "ET" with a sequence that uses either RBI's or SBI's.

If that was the case, if the attempt was to define the single type of interval that - on its own - can avoid cumulative errors... I would not agree, as I would find that approach to be wrong.

And there, about "cumulative errors", I find one more wrong suggestion, namely that a 12_notes "temperament sequence" enables to achieve "ET" across the whole keyboard, as if there was no need to check 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths.

If it is true that some of us have understood the relevance of 12ths and how significant 15ths and the "expansion" of the first octave will be, does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

And, before I forget, in light of some recent comments and video offerings, there are two more issues I would like to deepen on, hopefuly together with you: how the hammer technique (and string's tension) might affect the position/output of partials, and consequently all matchings; secondly, those cases when the pitch/frequency drops, after unisons.

Grandpianoman, probably you will be "recruited" :-)

To All, enjoy these Holydays.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: rxd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/26/13 09:56 AM

Alfredo, again, you lift my post out of one thread and put it in another with a different context.

Anybody with the least intelligence will plainly see this.

The context of the thread that you quote me from is about temperament only and I try to stick to the topic.

All to resurect a thread that all have lost interest in since your last posting eight months ago. That sounds desperate.

There have been times I have thought of writing about how each move in the temperament affects the whole piano but that was not the topic.

You have tried many times to involve me in this thread. I don't know what your obsession is.

You seem to be attempting to recruit people for your "cause" and you are being publically rebuffed by all but the most impressionable.

Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/26/13 11:05 AM


rxd,

Let me quote my post:

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hi All,

Not long ago, someone was asking indirectly what pre-tuning meant, and I think I owe the answer: it means preparatory tuning and it refers to this thread and to a part of its contents.

Below, I am tracing a post by rxd, which I think is worth a comment, for better or worse:

Re: Up a 3rd, Up a 3rd, Down a 5th vs 4ths and 5ths Sequences [Re: UnrightTooner]
#2201636 - December 23, 2013 03:11 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
The trouble with using SBI's is that nobody, but nobody, even those who stake their reputations on tuning by fifths, ever sustains the notes for five seconds while waiting patiently for three beats (or whatever it is) to present themselves. Only to tediously repeat those five seconds with each and every fifth however many times it takes to get it right.

Fifths and octaves or the more compact fifths and fourths was intended for musicians who probably couldn't hear the subtleties of thirds to roughly tune their own instruments before the main event of practicing.

The more sophisticated methods were developed by tuners for whom tuning is the main event.

An RBI can be tuned 'on the fly' with the beat rate established and the pin set with one blow lasting a second or less.

It is transpiring that while most tuners can now hear major thirds, there may be many who cannot hear, or have never thought of using or referencing minor thirds in tuning.

{{At this stage, I had thought that contiguous minor thirds may be too complex but, just spur of the moment, I thought of using A-F# then A-C-D#, then using D#-F# Maj sixth as a check then refining the C but this still will always have one note tuned vicariously}}.

As I said about twelve posts ago, before that memorable graph debacle, it is possible to tune more than half of the temperament octave with direct reference to only the starting note.
If there is a mistake, it can not possibly be cumulative and there are more than enough cross checks between the first half dozen or so notes to ensure complete accuracy and cohesiveness.
Yes, it requires tuners to have a comprehensive knowledge of the temperament scale on decent pianos to accomplish it and it might not be a good teaching method.

Alrhough i don't always use it, this method has seemed to me to be the most logical answer to the age old problem of cumulative errors and the tedious backtracking to correct them.

It was thought necessary, in WT's to use a cumulative series of fifths and octaves to arrive at a progressive harmonic relative purity of the major and minor keys towards the tonal centre. It works well that way but such a progression is totally unnecessary in ET.

I find it incongruous that a proponent of WT's has abandoned tuning exclusively by fourths and fifths whereas at least one of the main voices opposing WT's still argues for this now archaic and unreliable system of fourths and fifths.


By reading that Topic and the above post I get the idea that RBI's and SBI's are still considered separately, as if we could tune "ET" with a sequence that uses either RBI's or SBI's.

If that was the case, if the attempt was to define the single type of interval that - on its own - can avoid cumulative errors... I would not agree, as I would find that approach to be wrong.

And there, about "cumulative errors", I find one more wrong suggestion, namely that a 12_notes "temperament sequence" enables to achieve "ET" across the whole keyboard, as if there was no need to check 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths.

If it is true that some of us have understood the relevance of 12ths and how significant 15ths and the "expansion" of the first octave will be, does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

And, before I forget, in light of some recent comments and video offerings, there are two more issues I would like to deepen on, hopefuly together with you: how the hammer technique (and string's tension) might affect the position/output of partials, and consequently all matchings; secondly, those cases when the pitch/frequency drops, after unisons.

Grandpianoman, probably you will be "recruited" :-)

To All, enjoy these Holydays.

Regards, a.c.
.


And here is your reply:

Originally Posted By: rxd
Alfredo, again, you lift a thread out of one context and put it in another to gain brownie points for your own ends.

Anybody with the least intelligence will plainly see this.

The context of the thread that you quote me from is about temperament only and I try to stick to the topic.

There have been times I have thought of writing about how each move in the temperament affects the whole piano but that was not the topic.

You have tried many times to involve me in this thread and I am still resisting. I don't know what your obsession is.

You seem to be trying to recruit people for your "cause" and you are being publically rebuffed by all but the most impressionable.



I hope you re-read the above and understand that:

a) I have already got my "points" and do not need to gain anymore (here);
b) I never think I should evaluate other readers' intelligence, as that (for me) it is simply arrogant;
c) I do understand what the thread I quoted above is about, as well as what you wrote;
d) Times may come, when we manage to focus on theoretical and practical issue as one, despite (or aside) the Topic;
e) You, like any other poster, may be involved in this thread (or any other) on the basis of what you write, provided you can manage your own obsession and be respectful;

f) That's true, it might look like I am recruiting "...people" for a "...cause" of mine; actually, I am peacefully trying to share my experience and some results that may concern the "cause" of ours;

..."...publically rebuffed by all but the most impressionable."

Well, rxd, you decide, but (as mentioned) try to take it easy, nobody here is undermining your authority.

My point: does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted by: rxd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/26/13 03:50 PM

Dearest Alfredo.

I have answered the questions in your latest post in my post immediately before it. But I will expand on it. Expand being a poor choice of words as will soon transpire. .

Much of my work consists of tuning the same 15-20 9' grands. Sometimes it is my lot to tune the same 9' piano 12 times in four days. Now, the accepted way to tune a piano is from the middle outwards.

I can choose, for the last 8-9 of those tunings to check the piano from the outer octaves inwards towards the middle. Or to see how it works out from the fifth or sixth octave outwards and inwards

For some kinds of musical situations I will begin with a narrow third octave and tune both ways out from there. I never put in an interval in the temperament range, however large I want make it or whichever range I want to tune it, without considering how it will invert or transfer into all different parts of the instrument.

I have thus luxury. I can either do a touch up tuning or a refinement tuning starting wherever I feel appropriate. If I am on attendance, I can hear how the piano is being used. If I am only called for the tunings, I arrive early so that I can hear a few playbacks. I prefer to call it refinement rather than touch up.

After so long doing this class of work, beatrate memory has to kick in. I would be a fool to ignore it and not use it as another tool.

No tuning is ever scheduled for any more than an hour and sometimes some of the initial tuning is cut short waiting for the piano to arrive, traffic being the way it is. They always arrive reasonably in tune and within pitch parameters, Often coming direct from another engagement or having been properly tuned before despatch from the basement.
An accurate beat rate memory and the ability to work from the most in tune sections of the piano is very helpful when time is limited.

I have never been the sort of person who blindly follows rules so I can't possibly ever get bored with my lot. But I do know that not considering the whole piano when setting the temperament area will slow down the tuning.

What's this to do with other tuners? Most tuners have access to a 48" uprite that has standard beat rates (or a 6' grand) that they can give a half hours attention a few times over a week to practice making refinements to a piano that is already, to all intents and purposes, in tune. Get away from the idea of touch up tuning and think refinement. The more refined the tuning, the more upkeep it takes.

We're talking about fast beating minor thirds being difficult to hear and so many don't use them in tuning but fast beating major thirds in the fifth and sixth octaves should be concentrated on because the are almost always ignored. Perceptive people and fine microphones perceive too fast a M3 in the fifth and sixth and seventh octaves as a screaming in the tone. Most all regular tuners ignore these.

Of course, anything too fast in the upper octaves has its genesis in the temperament octaves so any unevenness there will become intolerable to the finer ear higher into the treble. Any tendency to over stretch will soon be exposed with this test. of course, 17ths must conform and pianos can be very accommodating with the twelfths in the treble. Fifths, of course, definitely tempered but sounding cleaner with all six strings.
My colleagues seem to prefer the single octave purity over the double octave purity whenever there is a choice.
I prefer just a liitle warmth toward the bass but only if I'm scheduled to see the piano again in a few hours.

Tone regulation in the middle octaves is very important. It is harshness there that can give the perception of flatness in the treble. As can habitually listening to over stretched pianos. This can come from early efforts in tuning that are not controlled by a mentor who is not also caught up in over stretching.

If a piano screams out to be stretched!!! it can be done if all the aforementioned parameters are met.
Posted by: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/27/13 02:33 PM


Hi,

Thank you, rxd, for expanding on your practice, I hope that other readers will find that stimulating as I do.

Also in my case, here in London, the time window I am given is one hour and, as you say, many times it gets even less... Anyway, back to my point, it is my opinion that a 12-tones temperament (ET or WT) cannot describe our tunings, for reasons that are mainly related to having/wanting to tune the whole piano.

Leave theoretical issues aside, it is (also) for practical purposes that I would suggest to enlarge the usual "temperament" (and beat-references) to (at least) 19-tones, so including 12ths, and even better if young tuners could have double-octaves as a "check"... Don't you (and All) think that this would be more adherent to our modern practice, that this would enable to keep control of intervals (including 17ths) into all different parts of the instrument?

Regards, a.c.