Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.

Posted by: jazzwee

Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 01:36 AM

Hello piano fans, this thread is a primer on jazz based on the tune 'Autumn Leaves (AL)' and 'All the Things You Are (ATTYA)' (See Bottom of Links for ATTYA).


Advanced Players - New Thread Started Here
Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players

Download ENTIRE THREAD in PDF


Reharmonization Thread - Related
Mary Had a Little Lamb



THREAD INDEX

What is Jazz?

Autumn Leaves Changes
Lead Sheet of Autumn Leaves (Our Changes) by Serge88
Comping AL - Charleston Style by Chris Bell
Comping AL (2) - by Chris Bell
Walking Bass Examples - by Chris Bell

Melodies/Recordings/MIDI Resources
Swing version from jazzwee
Combo Version of Melody from jazzwee
Combo Version MIDI Backing Track from jazzwee
Jeff Bauer\'s AL Backing Track and Latin Version
Professional versions
MIDI Files of Charleston LH by Kangamangusuk
Elssa\'s Ballad Version
You Tube Links of Swing Examples
Walking Bass Backing Tracks
Short Solo - Combo - Jazzwee


Lessons
PDF Summary of Lessons

Lesson 1 - AL With Shell Voicings LH
Lesson 2 - Shell Voicings LH with 3rd RH
Lesson 3 - AL Alternate LH/RH Strategies
Lesson 4 - Solo Piano/Ballad Ideas-Non Jazz
Lesson 5 - Walking Bass
Lesson 6 - Solo Piano 2 + 3 Voicings
Lesson 7 - Rootless Chord Voicings - Combo Setting - 3 Parts
Lesson 8 - Scale Exercise 1
Lesson 9 - \'Playing in the Pocket\'
Lesson 10 - Beginning Solo Tips - Long Notes and Space
Lesson 11 - Solo - Chord Tones on Downbeats
Lesson 12 - Solo - What to Play on a Maj7 Chord
Lesson 13 - Solo - What to Play on a Dominant 7 Chord
Lesson 14 - Solo - What to Play on a Minor ii-V-I
Lesson 15 - Reharmonization 101

Jazz Arranging by Chuck Israels (Link from Chris Bell)
Learning to swing
Swing Discussion - Detailed
Note Phrasing
Chromatic Ideas for Lines

Theory
Shell voicings (1/7)
Circle of Fifths
2-5-1
Scale degrees
Theory - Chords and Extensions

All the Things You Are (ATTYA)

Opening Discussion and Playing Examples

Two Handed Voicings

Two Handed Voicings - Practice Strategy Part 1-5



Jazz Blues

Lesson 1 Blues


Autumn Leaves Backing Track For Slow Practice - 80bpm
http://www.box.net/shared/8bjpa2lks3



For General Jazz Discussion, please go to this related home thread:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/32/5547.html

Everyone is welcome, and discussions will be done at all levels from beginner to a little more advanced. This way everyone can share and learn. Jazz can be a lot to absorb and it can really help to have a group of people to help each other along the path of learning.

There are some of us who have had a few years of study in jazz and have a little headstart. But it doesn't mean we know everything. Jazz, like learning Classical, is complex and encompasses everything from theory to technique. It is humbling how little we know (even the ones contributing information).

Many jazzers learn jazz by dissecting a tune and expanding on it. In the case of Autumn Leaves, a beginner could literally stay on this one tune for an entire year of intense study and you still wouldn't be done. The good news is that everything one will learn will be applicable to a large number of other jazz tunes so this tune becomes more of a framework of discussion.

I personally haven't done Autumn Leaves in awhile so even just explaining things will be helpful to me. FWIW, my experience has been that when I discuss the topic as a contributor, I will often learn a lot of new things myself. So those who know this tune and jazz in general, please contribute. The more the merrier!

Those who wish to participate in this Study Group, please say Hi and tell us your goals and start asking questions as we go along.
I expect this to be a very big thread and will go on for a little while.

Welcome to our study group!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 02:09 AM

NOTATION CONVENTIONS IN THIS THREAD[/b]
In this thread, since a lot of the discussion is textual (not using sheet music), we use text representation of the music and chords. Bars are used ( '|Measure|' ) to indicate a Measure. Autumn Leaves is in 4/4 so assume 4 quarter notes per measure.

If you see two chords in a Measure as in
|Em7 A7|Dm7 G7|
Assume that we give each chord two beats. This is standard Leadsheet notation.


AUTUMN LEAVES[/b]
Medium Swing

Key of G (Em) 4/4

Form: AAB

A Section

| Am7 | D7 | Gmaj7 | Cmaj7 |
| F#m7b5 | B7b9 | Em7 | Em7 |

B Section

| F#m7b5 | B7b9 | Em7 | Em7 |
| Am7 | D7 |
| GMaj7 | CMaj7 |
| F#m7b5 | B7b9 |
| Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 | F#m7b5 | B7b9 |
| Em7 | Em7 |

These are the "Changes" for the tune. As a definition, the chords of a tune are referred to as "Changes".

This tune is of the AAB form, which means you play the A section twice, followed by the B section. Each cycling through the tune is referred to as a Chorus.


Chord Finding Program from Monster M&H
http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/

Autumn Leaves (AL) is commonly played in a couple of keys. These are changes in G(Em). The other popular version is in the key of Bb(Gm). It would be advisable to learn AL in Bb as well. In fact, advanced students should be able to transpose this in any key and it would be a simple matter once you understand the form.

In Jazz lingo, playing the changes for the first time with the melody is called "Playing the Head". You will loop through these changes many number of times.

The format in jazz playing is:
HEAD (MELODY)
REPEAT CHORUSES FOR SOLO
END WITH HEAD

Solo here means that in a combo setting, individual instruments will improvise as a Solo. This tune can be played in a jazz combo or can be played solo piano.

Medium Swing means the tempo is anywhere from 120-150 bpm per quarter note. Under this is generally slow swing and above this is fast.

By all means start as slow as you want.

Later on, we will discuss why this tune is in two keys G vs. Em as well as analyze the construction of the tune. Analysis is key to learning anything in jazz. Before you attempt to play it, you should know the key centers intimately.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 02:25 AM

LESSON #1[/b]

For those new to jazz chords, you can play the chords on the LH using just the root of the chord and the seventh of the chord. It will be quite easy. I will list the chords used above and what two notes you will play on the LH.

Play 'Am7' as 'A, G', which is (Root + b7)
Play 'D7' as 'D, C' which is (Root + b7)
Play 'GMaj7' as 'G, F#' which is (Root + 7)
Play 'CMaj7' as 'C, B' which is (Root + 7)
Play 'F#m7b5' as 'F#, E' which is (Root + b7)
Play 'B7b9' as 'B, A' which is (Root + b7)
Play 'Em7' as 'E, D' which is (Root + b7)

These are know in jazz as 1/7 shell voicings. Popularized by Bud Powell, they are simple but have the advantage of having a solid bass tone for the root, something very good for solo piano.

Now what are you supposed to do with the RH? For now, you'll need to play the melody. Once I figure it out, I'll post an MP3 of the melody. Or those who are handy with recordings can post their version of the melody. Although the melody is fixed, it's like singing, each person will play the melody differently especially with different swing styles.

Note to more advanced players: Be patient ;\) This stuff gets complicated really fast. Plus this will turn into a free for all once I get the base instructions down.
Posted by: Van

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 03:30 AM

Excellent thread, jazzwee, I'm looking forward to learning how more sophisticated jazz improvs are done.
Posted by: Van

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 03:41 AM

Ok, before the pros step up, here's a fakebook version I did about a year ago shortly after beginning piano. I was studying the 1/7 voicing jazzwee talks about. 1/7 in LH, melody in RH with the missing chord notes stuffed under the melody, very simple effort at rhythm and rudimentary ornamentation...it's a beginner's effort and doesn't pretend to be anything else \:\)

http://www.box.net/public/uq49afktgi

It's a very nice voicing but it doesn't come naturally since you have to split up the chord. I'd need a lot more practice than I've put in to be able to play this voicing spontaneously. If I sat down and played this today, I would play it a lot differently (lots and lots of arpeggios).
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 05:57 AM

Hi Jazzwee, thanks for setting this up and I would like to participate.

Can you explaing what the b5 and b9 etc suffixes mean - I think I know, but I'd like to make sure...
Posted by: simon288

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 05:58 AM

Crikey, think I'll stick to my jazz grade one book for now thanks! Think I would seriously struggle with that but one day......!
Posted by: mahlzeit

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 07:10 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LaValse:
Can you explaing what the b5 and b9 etc suffixes mean - I think I know, but I'd like to make sure... [/b]
It means taking the 5th or 9th of the chord and lowering it a half-step. In B7b9, the 9th of the chord is C# and so b9 is C, making the chord B-D#-F#-A-C.

These alterations are often optional (unless the melody tone at that point happens to be that altered tone.)
Posted by: Les Koltvedt

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 10:01 AM

B7b9 is pronounced as B seventh, flatted 9th.

btw...count me in also..
Posted by: jazzyprof

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 10:14 AM

Well since I have "jazz" in my name I really ought to participate. Count me in!
Posted by: RhondaLynne

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 10:38 AM

I'm in.

F#m7b5 \:\(

(requires more processing time between the eyes and the fingers)
Posted by: Stanza

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 10:39 AM

Learning more about jazz is one of my goals this year. I am in! (I know those descending arps are coming...)
Posted by: EP

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 11:26 AM

Just as an aside, if anybody has access to Warren Berhnardt's "You Can Play Jazz Piano" videos on Homespun, almost the entire first tape is spent on Autumn Leaves. It's a great introduction to jazz piano playing.
Posted by: jotur

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 11:46 AM

I'm in -

now I just have to learn the melody \:D

Cathy
Posted by: Seaside_Lee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 12:13 PM

I'm in too \:D
Posted by: EP

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 12:22 PM

Edited by EP:
I've deleted this post because it's probably a bit confusing the way I described it and there are better analyses of this tune to follow.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 12:33 PM

DON'T PANIC \:\) when you see complex chords

I'm telling you about 1/7's for a reason. And part of this is to not be intimidated by F#m7b5.

Chords like F#m7b5, or Bb7b9 will need to be thought of as no different than F#7 or Bb7 for now. Just think of Root and the Seventh of the chord, in this case it is a b7 interval.

Now I'll simplify this for you even further.

A Major 7 interval is the root up to the note one half step before a full octave. For example, if the Octave is C to C, then a Major 7 interval is C to B. You will play all major 7 chords with this interval.

All minor chords or dominant chords will be played with a b7 interval or a half step less than a full Major 7 interval. Thus in C, this interval is C to Bb.

So looking at a chord like F#m7b5, think of the octave F# to F#. Now since it is minor, move two half steps down from the higher F to make the interval F# to E.

In a 1/7 voicing, these are the only intervals you need to concern yourself with. Memorize b7 and 7 intervals on all these chords on the LH and do it chromatically even, then your LH will memorize it and automatically stretch this length. It should be as familiar as an octave interval.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 12:42 PM

When playing a leadsheet, you can take any complex changes and get a feel of the tune using 1/7 voicings. Pros do this. So this is good training because your eyes simplify the chords that you see. It is liberating in a way.

So LaValse, for now, don't worry about all the chord alterations. They're more important in what it tells you how to improvise in "Analysis" of the tune.

EP Thanks for providing an analysis. Mine will be a little different but the point will be the same. I will save it for later.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 12:49 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Van:
Ok, before the pros step up, here's a fakebook version I did about a year ago shortly after beginning piano. I was studying the 1/7 voicing jazzwee talks about. 1/7 in LH, melody in RH with the missing chord notes stuffed under the melody, very simple effort at rhythm and rudimentary ornamentation...it's a beginner's effort and doesn't pretend to be anything else \:\)

http://www.box.net/public/uq49afktgi

It's a very nice voicing but it doesn't come naturally since you have to split up the chord. I'd need a lot more practice than I've put in to be able to play this voicing spontaneously. If I sat down and played this today, I would play it a lot differently (lots and lots of arpeggios). [/b]
Good job Van! And this is now the official source of the melody. For now \:\)
Posted by: EP

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 12:51 PM

Sorry if I got ahead of the game, here.
Of course there's lots of ways to analyze a tune like this, and it's definitely a classic everyone should know.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 01:06 PM

No problem EP. It's a free for all \:\) as intended. But I will put the restraint mostly on myself to introduce things in small steps.

My objective for now in my own posts is to make reading leadsheets a piece of cake using 1/7 voicings.
Posted by: Mike A

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 01:26 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by EP:
... there's lots of ways to analyze a tune like this...[/b]
Hi EP,

I think the more usual way to do roman numeral analysis on Autumn Leaves is to take account of its modulation back and forth between two keys, the major key in which it starts (G major in the version above) and the relative minor of that key (E minor above). See earlier thread .

Roman numeral analysis without taking account of modulations tends to make things look much more complicated than they are.
Posted by: Van

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 01:27 PM

jazzwee, just curious, if you're lazy, would you rather drop the 5 or the 7 on a 7th chord? \:D

OK, if anyone's interested, here are the chords for my Autumn Leaves (Key of Bb, two flats at b and e)...by the way this version is off of an instructional by Talc Tolchin on jazz improv (good series).

(melody starts G,A,Bb,Eb)

| |Cmin7|F7|BbMaj7|
|EbMaj7|Amin7b5|D7|Gmin7|
| |Cmin7|F7|BbMaj7|
|EbMaj7|Amin7b5|D7|Gmin7|

| |Amin7b5|D7|Gmin7|
| |Cmin7|F7|BbMaj7|
|Eb|Amin7b5|D7|Gmin7,C7|
|Fmin7,Bb7|EbMaj7|Amin7b5,D7|Gmin7|G7|

**FYI, the b5 at the end of some of the chords are flatted fifths.
Posted by: EP

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 01:32 PM

Understood, jazzwee, and I'll try not to hijack the thread.
I've just had it ingrained in me that the first step is to check out the form of the tune, especially to be aware of the II-V-I's, so I wanted to make the point that this tune is nothing but two II-V-I's, one in major and one in minor, (Am-D7-G and F#m7b5-B7b9-Em) so people could see that this was really a very simple tune and not to be thinking it was more complex than it is.
Posted by: EP

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 01:35 PM

MikeA,
We crossed posts there, but you are absolutely right. Sorry if my earlier post was misleading.
I've deleted the previous post to avoid confusing anyone.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 02:00 PM

Here's my post of the melody in swing style. As I said, I'm no pro...

http://www.box.net/shared/fwpw2fdycw


Edit: Added 12/29/07 Simplified version of melody.

http://www.box.net/shared/7fjofyaogk
Posted by: Van

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 02:08 PM

Wow, awesome sound, jazzwee, I loved it! Your rhythm is very nice. Was this recorded on your Hamburg? Very well played!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 02:10 PM

EP, checking the form of the tune is excellent advice. And I agree with the revised analysis of Mike A and you that it is best understood as a simple ii-V-I of a major key and ii-V-i of it's relative minor. This gives an initial framework that the tune could possibly be played using a single scale: G.

C D E F# G A B C
All white keys except for one note.

However, as we expand later on this concept, we will learn to use a multitude of scales on this tune. But in the meantime, noodling in G scale will be fine.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 02:13 PM

Van, thanks! and yes it's live using the H4 and the Hamburg. It took me awhile to figure out how to split up an MP3 file. But from now on it won't be so hard.

Just for background, the LH is just doing 1/7's like what we're discussing here and the right hand playing a simple melody.

Later on we can see that the RH can play some of the chords too while playing the melody.

Apparently, I was also playing this at a fairly fast clip. It feels slightly faster than 150bpm.
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 02:41 PM

Hi All,
I lurked the previous thread with interest and apprehension. Now that the real thing is here, I've decided to dip my toe in the water.

I think I got the A section working with a bare bones melody this morning, so I'm going to give it a try.

For anyone (like me) who's a little slow at figuring out things like m7b5 chords, here's a nice site with a chord chart very close to the G version above, and it includes sound and chord voicings:

http://www.8notes.com/chord_chart/autumn_leaves.asp
Posted by: Kawaigirl1

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 03:44 PM

This is a great topic Jazzwee. Count me in \:\)

Here's a dumb question. Are you guys working off a lead sheet?
Posted by: mahlzeit

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 04:04 PM

Heh, only when you try to record do you realize the kind of trouble you're in. Pedaling this tune gives me all kinds of trouble. Also I keep speeding up. Anyway, I'll try again to record something tomorrow. \:D
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 05:01 PM

Kawaigirl1, there are never going to be dumb questions here! Instead of a leadsheet (which we cannot officially post due to to copyrights), I have posted the chords at the top of the thread.

I placed the notes to be played for each chord early in this thread so you don't need to be intimidated. We're doing only two notes per chord and they're already listed.

So the chords are listed like this as they would be in a leadsheet. They're separated by bars which would indicate that you would count to four on each bar. So stay on the same chord for four beats.

| Am7 | D7 | Gmaj7 | CMaj7 |
| 1234 | 1234 | 1234 | 1234 |
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 05:04 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:
Hi All,
I lurked the previous thread with interest and apprehension. Now that the real thing is here, I've decided to dip my toe in the water.

I think I got the A section working with a bare bones melody this morning, so I'm going to give it a try.

For anyone (like me) who's a little slow at figuring out things like m7b5 chords, here's a nice site with a chord chart very close to the G version above, and it includes sound and chord voicings:

http://www.8notes.com/chord_chart/autumn_leaves.asp [/b]
Bluekeys, why be apprehensive? Just to repeat my background here, I've only played piano and jazz for a little over three years. So you're not that far away. What I'm sharing here is based on collective information from several jazz teachers. Over the years I've tried to analyze how best to learn this stuff and hopefully I can impart that to everyone and share my love of jazz.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 05:11 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
Heh, only when you try to record do you realize the kind of trouble you're in. Pedaling this tune gives me all kinds of trouble. Also I keep speeding up. Anyway, I'll try again to record something tomorrow. \:D [/b]
I know what you mean with recording. I just tried to record some stuff right now and I get self-conscious to so I keep making mistakes. Then I discovered, the Recorder was OFF!!!!

I have to emphasize by the way that in Jazz, the rhythm is key and it has to be there whether fast or slow. I was trying to record a version at ballad speed just for comparison just to show that even at slow speed, I'm still counting.

BTW - most of jazz is seldom pedalled. This is hard as the notes have to be played legato. My early teachers would forbid me from using pedals or reverb.
Posted by: mahlzeit

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 05:20 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Instead of a leadsheet (which we cannot officially post due to to copyrights) . . .[/b]
Heh, we cannot legally post our own recordings of Autumn Leaves either. ;\)

Here is a (legal!) leadsheet of Autumn Leaves, although I won't make any promises to its accuracy:
http://www.wikifonia.org/node/106

(If you select "Eb" under Layout, you'll see the score in Em, which is what we're talking about in this thread.)

Anyways, I just managed to record something bearable. Instead of 1-7 in the left hand, I alternated between 1-7 and 1-3 (and even a 1-5 at some point but that happened without thinking).

No (real) improvisations yet. I hope it swings. \:D

Here it is (MIDI file):
http://www.box.net/shared/bl81pqao0c
Posted by: mahlzeit

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 05:25 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
I was trying to record a version at ballad speed just for comparison just to show that even at slow speed, I'm still counting.[/b]
I'm not counting but I'm definitively tapping along with my foot, which I never do otherwise.

 Quote:
BTW - most of jazz is seldom pedalled.[/b]
That's interesting. The bit I just recorded is without pedal and I like it better that way, but I guess it really needs a drummer. ;\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 05:42 PM

Hi Matthijs, I don't mean I actually count 1234. At this point, I've internalized the pulse so I'm conscious of the beat. I have to anyway in order to swing.

I still have Rhythm problems. But certainly much better than when I started. ;\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 05:46 PM

Matthijs, I listened to the recording and you're starting to swing man! Good job! I'll do some recordings later to show some swing exercises so you all can practice that and learn variations in swing.

BTW - in the end we will also be doing 1/7 and 1/3 on the left as that's better voice leading. There's also 1/5/7 on the LH which is perfect for Autumn Leaves actually. Sometimes the melody is on the third so it doesn't work too well to do 1/7 LH and 3/5 RH. Unconsciously I noticed that in my recording I did add an extra note on the RH. Habit.

Anyway, later, I'll introduce a nice RH voicing to a 1/7, 1/3 LH. Perfect for comping a singer.
Posted by: Mike A

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 05:55 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
...Heh, we cannot legally post our own recordings of Autumn Leaves either. ... [/b]
I believe there's an applicable exception under U.S. copyright law.
 Quote:
Public Performance Without Commercial Advantage.[/b] Although fair use provides a statutory exception to any of a copyright holder’s exclusive rights, § 110(4) provides an exception to only the performance right of a copyright holder.94 The § 110(4) exception in the Copyright Act allows public performances to take place without payment so long as the performance is done without the intent of making commercial gain.95 In addition, the performers, promoters, and organizers must not be compensated beyond expenses. The statute does not require the performance to be free if the proceeds are used exclusively for educational, religious, or charitable purposes. If none of these purposes are available, the performance must be free for the audience. Examples of these public performances include eligible benefit concerts, school performances, and religious festivities.
See CRS Report to Congress: Copyright Licensing in Music Distribution, Reproduction, and Public Performance 19 (2006).

Not an expert, though.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 06:02 PM

Mike A, on another site, the webmaster was hunted down as the "Commercial Enterprise" not the one who made the music. On the other hand, none of our music is posted on Pianoworld so I guess they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. The other site in question stored MIDI files on the same server.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/27/07 06:43 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Van:
jazzwee, just curious, if you're lazy, would you rather drop the 5 or the 7 on a 7th chord? \:D
[/b]
Van, I forgot to answer this.

When we are all done, you will find that the only key chord tones are the 3rd and the 7th. The harmonic 'quality' of a chord is defined by these two tones. Later we will play the 3rd on our RH. The 5th is the least important tone and is frequently skipped. Although so far, we have not used the 3rd, you will find that it is actually frequently hit by the melody.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 03:17 AM

LESSON #2

OK guys, I will up the ante a little now for the folks that have successfully done 1/7's. Now note that there's no timeline here. I'm putting the information in order of learning. Some of you may stay on 1/7's for awhile and some already know it so don't feel pushed. You can ask questions at any time even something early on.

RH 3rds

Now I want to add 3rds to each chord using the RH. So the LH keeps playing 1/7's and the RH plays the 3rd of each chord. You will find that once you've memorized 1/7's on the LH, you can leave that somewhat on autopilot because the intervals mostly constant except for the two major 7 chords. So now you can concentrate on the 3rds. At the beginning, just memorize the pattern but later, study how the third works with the chord. What's important here is to train the ear to recognize the melodic flow.

Here are the original changes in Chord Format:

CHORD FORMAT

A Section

| Am7 | D7 | Gmaj7 | Cmaj7 |
| F#m7b5 | B7b9 | Em7 | Em7 |

X2 (Do 2 times)

B Section

| F#m7b5 | B7b9 | Em7 | Em7 |
| Am7 | D7 |
| GMaj7 | CMaj7 |
| F#m7b5 | B7b9 |
| Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 | F#m7b5 | B7b9 |
| Em7 | Em7 |

Notes Format: LH 1/7 + RH 3

Here's the same thing but now I've substituted the LH and RH notes to play for each chord. We will play no more than 3 notes per chord in two hands. For each chord I enclose the notes in brackets []. The first two notes are to be played in the LH, the third note (after the comma) is to be played in the RH.


A Section

| [A G, C] | [D C, F#] | [G F#, B] | [C B, E] |
| [F# E, A] | [B A, Eb] | [E D, G] | [E D, G] |

X2 (Do 2 times)


B Section

| [F# E, A] | [B A, Eb] | [E D, G] | [E D, G] |
| [A G, C] | [D C, F#] |
| [G F#, B] | [C B, E] |
| [F# E, A] | [B A, Eb] |
| [E D, G] [A G, C#]* |
| [D C, F#] [G F, B]* |
| [F# E, A] | [B A, Eb] |
| [E D, G] | [E D, G] |

Example: | [A G, C] | LH plays A G, RH plays C. Inside the bars, play the chord for 4 beats (count 1234). There's a couple of bars, marked with an asterisk, where there are two chords in each bar. Each chord here will be played for only two beats (count 12 12).

Here's a recording of this played in two hands. I apologize in advance for the bad recording. For some reason, the stereo sound was not balanced. In fact most of my recordings tonight had distortion so something went awry. At least this was passable.

http://www.box.net/shared/xv34ib4g8c

(note that in the recording I did not play the 4 chords marked with an asterisk as shown - I just played the 1st chord for 4 measures as a simplified version).

This style of playing is referred to as 2 + 1 solo piano style (from the Metaphors for Musician Book). It shows that 2 notes of the chord are played in the LH and 1 note in the RH. Later, we will get to playing this in 3 + 1 and 2 + 3. Or in the most advanced comping level 4 + 3 (referred to otherwise as block chords).

What's important here is to listen to the sound of each chord. In each bracket [] above, the notes referenced are in the following format [Root 7th, 3rd]. Listen closely to the sound because your ears needs to hear the two important tones: 7th and 3rd which Mike A earlier has emphasized as being harmonic 'Guide Tones'. (He's absolutely right too).
Posted by: Mike A

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 11:27 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
... the two important tones: 7th and 3rd which Mike A earlier has emphasized as being harmonic 'Guide Tones'. [/b]
And, to be clear, what I was talking about ( here and here ) was the use of guide tones in a melodic rather than harmonic context, to create guide tone lines[/b] ... one of several sources of raw material for improvised solos. The article I mentioned illustrates the creation of guide tone lines in the context of Autumn Leaves.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 11:38 AM

And you were clear Mike A.

The separation of playing the 3rd in the RH makes it easy to quickly transform that 3rd as part of a solo line in the RH. The 7th, which can already be heard on the LH becomes the 3rd of the next chord in many cases. IMHO, hearing these tones is critical to making melodic lines later on.

In any case, even setting the improv section aside, the 7th and 3rd remain critical to the harmonic content. Without them, there is no harmonic flow in a tune like this, which is completely based on "Functional Harmony" (ii-V-I).
Posted by: westarm

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 11:42 AM

great thread and i'm following.

a small question....are we playing 7ths and/or 2nds for the 1/7 exercise? sounds, in the example above, like 7ths. is this typical in roughing out a voicing?

thanks.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 11:53 AM

westarm, this is actually a very good question.

In the later version, even with 3 notes as in Am7 played as [A G, C], we have A as the root, G as the 7th, C as the 3rd. It is important to play them in this order.

Do not play 'A G C' as 'G A C'. The reason for this is that the LH has a bigger spread. The root and the 7th have enough separation that the root will be played lower in the bass section.

If you played Am7 as 'G A C', you will have to play it above middle C to not be muddy and you will lose your bass tone.

I'm not in front of the piano, but I will probably need to specify exactly which Octave the root is played. I will do that.
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 12:58 PM

I've been trying the original 1-7 shell LH and one note RH - I always falter at some point - fumbling for the chords - lost my way rhytmically a few times in the recording below and hit lots of wrong notes, but it's coming... *Lots* of fun - kids singing along as well at times. Everything else I've ever played has been pre 1900 classical \:\)

http://www.sailwave.com/piano/al1.mp3

That sort of thing feels natural but I'm not really sure what I'm doing...!

Thankyou jazzwee - that was a fun afternoon...
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 01:15 PM

Wow LaValse, that sounds pretty good to me! It has a nice swing to it. You did a great job!

Don't rush this. It's important to get the LH on autopilot. This will be key to doing an improv on the RH later. And play it slow too. It will be hard to solo at this fast clip. I was going to post a much slower version except my Zoom H4 blew up on me.

One other thing, don't be afraid to play whole notes on the LH. When we get to doing the solo, a busy LH can be distracting for a beginner. I know I had a busy LH too but in my second recording, I'm just playing whole notes.

When actually played in a swing style, this tempo will be the final objective but we have to start slow first ;\) Sorry for setting a bad example...
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 01:27 PM

Hi jazzwee,

Understood - I think I got a bit excited that I was playing music that my family recognised! I did try slow but lost the swing 'ability'... so I was in fact wondering about that. Thank you for the feedback; I'll concentrate on the issues you mention.

> Zoom H4 blew up

Get an Edirol... ;\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 01:43 PM

Hi LaValse, I think you should practice it both ways. This is excellent! Yes when you slow down you will lose the swing. I'm glad you tried to swing it. The phrasing is very nice!

I'm just preparing you for the next step which is to play just the 3rds in the right hand and then from there, we can make new melodies. It will be pretty difficult to do that in fast form.

I've ruined two days of recording so far so I'm behind on that front. With very loud children (who are always running) in my house, it's been hard to get quiet time \:D

Things I wanted to record: (I did, but lost them)

1. I wanted to demonstrate a LH slower Charleston Rhythm.

2. Ballad tempo

3. Swing examples - good and bad

4. Playing thirds and RH and creating simple melodies (ballad tempo)
Posted by: jotur

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 02:07 PM

I know the melody! \:D I'll work on the chord voicings over the weekend and maybe I can post early in the new year.

Van - I *love* the laid back feel of your piece - it really has just that atmosphere one expects from a cool cat -

jazzwee and LaValse - the rhythms are great - haha, I wouldn't even have thought of that kind of a LH pattern. Thanks.

I see the ii-V-I's here, but they also look like the circle of 4ths to me, which I've seen in a lot of pop music.

And, hm. A B7b9 - isn't the b9 another B? Is it spelled with the b9 just to encourage you to put in the octave B?

Cathy
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 02:26 PM

Hi Cathy, like I said earlier, don't worry about the alterations in chords like B7(b9) or F#m7(b5) (F# Half Diminished). There's a reason it is stated as such. These are:

Major 2-5-1[/b]
Key of G
Am7 - D7 - GMaj7

Minor 2-5-1[/b]
Key of Em
F#m7b5 - B7b9 - Em

Of course G and Em share the same diatonic scale so you are right that it could also be construed to appear as just the circle of fifths (or fourths).

B7(b9) or B7 Flat Nine, means a B7 with a C.

F#m7(b5) or F sharp minor Seven with a Flat Five, is an F#m7 played with a C instead of Db.

I'm looking forward to your future music post!
Posted by: playadom

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 03:24 PM

I just discovered this thread.
How does this study group work? I am interested in participating, but I've never learned music in a way like this.

I was looking at the thread, but I'm rather lost.
Please enlighten me.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 03:47 PM

Hi Playadom, unlike reading sheet music, jazz is played in a more free form fashion and so we are learning pieces of the puzzle so to speak. In the end, the intent is that someone could take a "Lead Sheet" (Music that has chords and melody) of any tune, and improvise upon it. It could be applied to any tune.

Not everyone needs to take this to the full level of learning everything jazz. An objective for some could be to play this tune as a "cocktail piano piece".

So far, what we've discussed is how to play the chords to Autumn Leaves in the LH and play the melody in the RH.

I hope that most people will take it to the point of playing chords in the LH while inventing new melodies in the RH, or improvisation in other words.

Hopefully this thread will provide enough background to achieve this.

This is pretty free form. Not everyone can learn at the same pace so this is a long term thread. Some people may take weeks to get beyond page 1.

Hopefully, I and others will put information here in increasing levels of complexity until it becomes a long term learning resource.

This is not something that can be learned in a weekend.

Here's a professional version of Autumn Leaves played by Jazz Master Keith Jarrett.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=io1o1Hwpo8Y
Posted by: jotur

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 04:12 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
B7(b9) or B7 Flat Nine, means a B7 with a C.[/b]
Oh yeah, duh - the key of B major has a C# -

thanks

Cathy
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 04:18 PM

Actually B7 (unaltered) would be in the key of E... \:D \:D

In the key of Em, B7 would have a flat 9 since C is in the scale. ;\)

Jazzers are theory geeks...sorry
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 04:33 PM

Frank Sinatra version of Autumn Leaves. Non-jazz of course.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hhB8H1YnRF0&feature=related

Jazz Versions:[/b]

Keith Jarrett.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=io1o1Hwpo8Y

Oscar Peterson
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3oHaL5cV9jY

Bill Evans
http://youtube.com/watch?v=89B6OmBuG4A

There are literally hundreds of versions of Autumn Leaves on YouTube so I picked the notable ones.
Posted by: playadom

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 04:35 PM

Now, I see the chords, but what about the melody?
Is this posted somewhere?
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 04:38 PM

Hi Playadom, unfortunately we cannot post a real leadsheet with melody due to copyright reasons. So some of us have posted the melody to be played by ear.

For those wanting the actual leadsheet, you can get Real Book 1 Sixth Edition from your local Bookstore (or Amazon, etc.).
Posted by: playadom

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 04:43 PM

I've never had to figure anything out by ear.

This could be interesting!

A classical addict turned jazz!
Posted by: mahlzeit

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 04:44 PM

Playadom: I posted a link to a leadsheet on the previous page of this thread.
Posted by: playadom

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 04:48 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
Playadom: I posted a link to a leadsheet on the previous page of this thread. [/b]
Found it.

Thanks!
Posted by: mahlzeit

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 04:50 PM

Also, a handy tip in these kinds of situations is to go to a site like MusicNotes.com or SheetMusicPlus.com and look up the tune. These sites will show you the first page for free (though you may have to install a browser plugin in order to see the sheet music). That's a great way to get started with a tune.

For example, Autumn Leaves is at:
http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0028996
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 04:52 PM

Matthijs, that's great that's the entire A section right there on MusicNotes.
Posted by: jotur

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 05:01 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Actually B7 (unaltered) would be in the key of E... \:D \:D

In the key of Em, B7 would have a flat 9 since C is in the scale. ;\)

Jazzers are theory geeks...sorry [/b]


Cathy
Posted by: RhondaLynne

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 05:27 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:

Here's a professional version of Autumn Leaves played by Jazz Master Keith Jarrett.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=io1o1Hwpo8Y [/b]


7+ minutes of pure joy from that not even 2-page lead sheet.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 05:31 PM

Amazing isn't it Rhonda? It just gives me goose bumps to listen to that. I promise that everyone who does this study group will end up playing like that!


...Yeah right \:D \:D \:D \:D It will be a 200 year study group ;\)
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 06:16 PM

http://www.box.net/shared/rvd1yqmckc

Here's my recording, one thing I discovered is playing 1-7 alternate with 1-3 is much easier and more pleasant to my ears.

Am(a-g),D7(d-f#), GM7(g-f#),CM7(c-e) F#7(f#-e)...

Jazzwee, any comment ? on my recording, should I just stick to 1-7 for now ?

Serge
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 06:31 PM

Fantastic Serge88! Good job.

1/7 1/3 is the voice leading approach and we will in fact play it this way later. So this is correct.

However, there is a reason we are practicing 1/7.

What I'm trying to pass here is the idea of playing the third on the RH because your solos will need to find that third automatically. So this is part of the mental training. You need to find that 3rd at all times without thinking. It is the most important note on the RH.

You can play 1/7 (ii chord) 1/3 (V chord) on the LH and still play the 3rd on the RH. You will end up doubling the third. Not a big deal for now. So you can keep doing it this way on the LH but later I will explain what happens to the RH voicing when you play 1/7 1/3.
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 07:10 PM

If anybody is interested, the Hal Leonard "Best Fake Book Ever" has this tune in the key of G, if anybody needs the melody. Plus, for the $40 or so, you get another 1000 lead sheets with melody lines.

I'm going to join in. I have been studying this on my own for a year or so, but was never very successful at application. Maybe this thread will help. I'm just wrapping up Alfred's Adult Book 2. I think that I'll spend a couple of months polishing up the pieces in book 2 and following this thread before moving on to book 3.

Thanks for all your recordings. I have enjoyed them and learned a lot from them already.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/28/07 11:50 PM

Here's my recording. A slow version. I added some RH notes under the harmony. Just sounded fuller to me. I'm excited to participate in this thread. I have a long way to go...

http://www.box.net/shared/hph7rzeo08
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 12:18 AM

Learning to Swing[/b]

On our Jazz Improvisation thread, we discussed swing. I've compiled some quickie recordings so we can discuss the correct way to swing.

All I'm playing here is Am7-D7-Gmaj7 on the LH, then I'm running through the G Major scale on my RH. This is just a raw view to compare the differences between three ways of playing. There are lots of gray in between but these are extremes.

NO SWING
This recording is played straight as you play it in classical music or Rock.
http://www.box.net/shared/uf0thaksos

SWING
This is how I swing the same line. Note the accents on the offbeat. http://www.box.net/shared/cmgedcy88c

INCORRECT SWING
This is an exaggerated dotted eight + 16th swing style. Not jazzy at all.
http://www.box.net/shared/eladihgooc

When I play the Autumn Leaves melody, you will notice that I don't accent the downbeats. They're a little softer than the upbeats.

So if counting
| 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 | & 1....
Only the '&' gets an accent. The '&' is a tad shorter than the downbeats as well. How short is a matter of styling. Some people play just a tiny bit shorter. Some players reach a ratio of 2:1 between a downbeat and upbeat pair. Mine tends to be closer to 1:1.

Think about this carefully when playing the melody. This takes awhile to master so don't expect immediate results but practice scales with swing in the RH.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 12:23 AM

Deeluk, you had a very nice melody on the RH! If you're having problems with the rhythm, play only whole notes on the LH so you can worry about one hand at a time. It's hard to think of too many things.

KeyboardJungle, welcome and join us with questions and problem solving to get you going.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 12:41 AM

Most of us have a problem with Rhythm and it is one of the key things about jazz. Swing itself requires a constant awareness of each eight note pulse.

So I would do some slow counting to see where the melody fits into each measure. Now if you listen to the way I do it, after awhile, you can make the melody sing a little and not land exactly on the beat. A little high speed Rubato is often used. Don't do it like that yet. Just keep it simple and in time.

Just remember that in Autumn Leaves, there's 2 1/2 beats before the main chord starts.

So in your head keep counting
& | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 |....

Then the melody goes
| & 3 4 | 1 | & 3 4 | 1 |
| No Chord | Am7 | D7 | Gmaj7 |
The^ Fal- ling | Leaves | Drift^ By my | Window |

So Am7 starts on 'Leaves'. Gmaj7 starts on 'Window'. D7 starts 1 1/2 beats before 'Drift'.

Except for the '&' , notice that all these notes are on the downbeat so none of the other notes in this sequence gets an accent.

This is how precise everything is to get that distinctive rhythmic feel. I KNOW it's tough. If you play it like you sing it, you will play it naturally.

I will probably have to record a super simplified version that just tracks the beats of the melody.
Posted by: mahlzeit

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 05:44 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
If anybody is interested, the Hal Leonard "Best Fake Book Ever" has this tune in the key of G, if anybody needs the melody. [/b]
Be aware that the chords have at least one error in it. It's not an Fm7b5 but an F#m7b5.
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 08:51 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Learning to Swing[/b]

SWING
This is how I swing the same line. Note the accents on the offbeat. http://www.box.net/shared/cmgedcy88c
Does not sound like swing to me. Only accent on the off beat.

 Quote:

INCORRECT SWING
This is an exaggerated dotted eight + 16th swing style. Not jazzy at all.
http://www.box.net/shared/eladihgooc
Now this sounds like jazz to me.

I think I have a problem with jazz rhythm. \:\(

Serge
Posted by: Les Koltvedt

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 08:56 AM

LaValse...nice job
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 09:07 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
If anybody is interested, the Hal Leonard "Best Fake Book Ever" has this tune in the key of G, if anybody needs the melody. [/b]
Be aware that the chords have at least one error in it. It's not an Fm7b5 but an F#m7b5. [/b]
Yes - I just figured that out after spending about 15 minutes this morning trying to make the Fm7b5 sound right. After listening to it clash with the A note in the melody, I went through the chords in the key that we are in and realized that the chord should be F#.

There are other differences, but I think that they are just differences, not necessarily mistakes. It was a good excercise to compare and contrast the HL version with ours. Also, it was rewarding to reason through an error in a fake book, come up with a better solution, and then get confirmation with my ears and on the thread. Thanks mahlzeit. I'll be switching to our version.

This is a little bit OT, so please respond with a personal message rather than posting to the thread. I am having trouble with my sound. I upgraded quick time and could hear files playing until I stopped QuickTime. When I started it again, the files played, but didn't produce sound. If anybody has any tips on configuring quick time, please send me a PM.
Posted by: RhondaLynne

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 10:16 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Serge88:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Learning to Swing[/b]

SWING
This is how I swing the same line. Note the accents on the offbeat. http://www.box.net/shared/cmgedcy88c
Does not sound like swing to me. Only accent on the off beat.

 Quote:

INCORRECT SWING
This is an exaggerated dotted eight + 16th swing style. Not jazzy at all.
http://www.box.net/shared/eladihgooc
Now this sounds like jazz to me.

I think I have a problem with jazz rhythm. \:\(

Serge [/b]
I thought the same thing as Serge88.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 11:59 AM

Serge88 and Rhonda, trust me on this, focus on accenting the offbeat. Don't do the "Lawrence Welk" swing. If you listen to the jazz masters, it's the accent that makes it sound like jazz.

I played it close to straight eighths as I explained. Someone like Bill Evans or Wynton Kelly makes the first eight longer, but the key in all of their playing is still the accent on the offbeat. That's the critical element here. If you do this, you sound professional.

The other effect that jazz players will do is drag the beat but again it's really dragging the accent so it doesn't fall exactly on an eight note pulse.

All students new to jazz think of the 'Dotted eighth + sixteenth' as the correct swing style (including me). It took awhile to correct this concept through a teacher and listening more closely.

Now sometimes the accent is more subtle. Keith Jarret's accents are not as pronounced. The faster you play the more the accents disappear and you play straight (like 16ths are played straight).

Listen to the Autumn Leaves videos. Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans both have a longer first eighth but it's happening so fast that it's hard to dissect. But all have accents on the offbeat and Oscar and Bill have stronger accents than Jarret.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 12:24 PM

Jazzwee, I had trouble with your swing example too. Not that it wasn't swinging, but I found myself wanting a longer snippet to listen to. Perhaps not as fast either. Could you post something a little longer if you have a chance?

I've been trying to practice this myself. Over in the other thread, the article about practicing scales with a metronome ticking on 2 and 4 really threw me for a loop. I found it really tough. Then, trying to accent the upbeats and make them shorter I found impossible. But I definitely hear what you're talking about in the phrasing of the pros. There's the unmistakable quality to it that really makes it sing. Errrr swing. ;\)

I found a practice routine in Tim Richards' jazz book that I've been using for this. He has you playing arps or scales around a ii-V-I-IV cycle. Then make the I a minor and continue. So, for example, Bm-E-A-D, Am-D-G-C, etc.
Posted by: Mike A

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 12:34 PM

Very good discussion of learning swing feel here , including examples of what isn't swing. Doesn't include media files, unfortunately, but the text and scored examples are still very useful.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 12:35 PM

Hi deeluk, in jazz, the faster you play (particularly at the pace that some of us were playing the melody, about 150bpm or so), the straighter the eighth pairs. Only in slow swing would you need to focus on making the first eight significantly longer (the triplet feel, two notes of the triplet in the first eight and the last remaining note of the triplet in the last eight).

As you go faster, the difference between the two eighths diminish. I re-listened to myself and I wasn't playing it straight really. I could detect that the first eighth was slightly longer.

My advice is to not think about making the second eighth shorter. When we play, the sizes of the eight pairs might keep changing even in a line. Just focus on the accent. When I deliberately make the second note shorter, my teacher will remind me to 'straighten out'.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 12:42 PM

Mike A, I've read that article so many times a long time ago and until you really hear it, one can still remain confused because the article is a bit advanced.

Garcia talks about mistakes like 'Accenting the downbeat', or playing same note pairs 'Evenly'. But he doesn't clearly explain how to learn swing. It's more like he's debugging someone who is swinging incorrectly.

I wish, he started off saying that one should 'Accent' something, because to a beginner, the biggest issue is that there is no accent.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 01:36 PM

Great study group idea! :p

Well, here's something I recorded last year.. It's in ballad form in key of G/Eminor with some arps and runs. When I played it for my jazz teacher at the time, he said it was terrible and really needs to be played with a "swing", not as a ballad! (but here it is anyway). :rolleyes: My goal is to learn to "swing it" and also to improvise with the chords. \:\)

Autumn Leaves
http://www.box.net/shared/0b668mh13j
Posted by: Van

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 02:21 PM

That's lovely elssa! It may not be jazz but it's very very pretty, wonderful phrasing (lol, when I read that you can't use pedals in jazz music I pretty much gave up hope \:\) )

This is very much the sound I'm going for these days. Do you have a piano solo only version without the strings? You improvised this right?
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 02:37 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Just for background, the LH is just doing 1/7's like what we're discussing here and the right hand playing a simple melody.
[/b]
Jazzwee - Are you are playing your 1/7 progression for the A section using the following notes for the 1?

Start on A1
up to D2
down to G1
up to C2
down to F#1
up to B1
down to E1

Thanks
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 02:46 PM

Thanks, Van! \:\) I guess this is more "cocktail" than "jazz", but I really enjoy all styles of piano music myself. I honestly don't know how to get rid of those strings - I recorded it live with piano and strings together (no overdubbing or whatever they call it) because that's the only way I know how to record. When I learn to swing it, though, I'll definitely just use piano - no strings.

"You improvised this right?"

Well, I sort of learned it by ear. I've been a member of PianoMagic for about two years, and though they don't focus on jazz, they do discuss various chord patterns found in jazz a lot such as 2-5-1, 1-6-2-5, as well as the Circle of 5ths, so that was a big help. \:\)
Posted by: ganymed

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 02:46 PM

wow elssa. **** MAN! that was awesome!!!!

How can you play that well ?!!?!!!

Im amazed!!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 03:14 PM

keyboardjungle, I'm not home so I'm not certain but I'm going to guess that it's octave 2 and 3 instead of 1 and two. You don't want the seventh to much past middle c.
Posted by: Steve W

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 04:07 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Actually B7 (unaltered) would be in the key of E... \:D \:D

In the key of Em, B7 would have a flat 9 since C is in the scale. ;\)

Jazzers are theory geeks...sorry [/b]
Hi jazzwee,
Thanks for this great thread! I think this is just what I've been needing. As I said in the other thread, it seems that I'm not unique in having a pretty good collection of jazz theory books but somehow never really finding ways to to apply the intimidating amount of theory they tend to give.

In this thread, already, you've gotten most of us off the dime and learning some cool shell voicings! What a great way to learn - teaching something we can apply immediately and make some music that actually sounds good!

Now, my question - could you please elaborate a bit on your answer to Cathy above? I would like to really try to understand this notion.

A (possibly) related question - early in this thread, you said we need to "learn the key centers intimately." What are key centers? Synonymous with "changes?" Or something else?

Thanks!
Posted by: Mike A

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 05:47 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve W:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Actually B7 (unaltered) would be in the key of E... \:D \:D

In the key of Em, B7 would have a flat 9 since C is in the scale. ;\)

Jazzers are theory geeks...sorry [/b]
...

Now, my question - could you please elaborate a bit on your answer to Cathy above? I would like to really try to understand this notion. ...[/b]
Steve W and jazzwee,

Ditto here. That answer struck me as odd in several respects.
Posted by: ganymed

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 07:08 PM

in jazz we use chords that consist of the notes of the scales (diatonic). So the B 7 9 chord must have a C, because we move in E minor, which has a c in the scale on the 6th position.


thats why we have to use a C for the 9th chord in Em because the c sharp is only a part of E major.
and not available in E minor.

and an octave with from c to c and + a minor second from c to c sharp = Minor 9th or 9b.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 07:17 PM

Boy, you guys ask tough questions. It's tough because it's hard to answer in short form. I'll give the quick answers on the specifics first and flesh it out later.

quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Actually B7 (unaltered) would be in the key of E...
[/b]

[BRAIN EXPLOSION ALERT]
When you see a dominant like B7, you need to immediately assume it's the 5th degree of the scale. So this is the fifth in E Scale (E, F#, G#, A, B). If this were a Bmaj7, then it could be the 1st or 4th degree of the scale because only those have Major 7's thus it could be B scale or F# scale.
[/BRAIN EXPLOSION ALERT]


So to fully understand this quickie answer requires an explanation of Scale Degrees. This is so important to jazz so it is worth explaining. But of course, this is nothing new. It's in all the theory books. I will attempt to find a summarized and simple explanation.

But if you're eager to learn, here's an example of a complete resource on theory.

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory1.htm

Stay tuned for a very long explanation... \:D
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 07:20 PM

BTW - I've invited some jazz pros to read our posts and so they are out there lurking and giving us the Thumbs up

ganymed, welcome! Are you a pro jazzer? And thanks for answering part of that question.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 07:52 PM

Theory - Scale Degrees[/b]

First we need to pick a scale. We will use C scale in my example but to reproduce this in any scale, just figure out what the scale notes are and it will turn out the same way.

So in the key of C, the notes of the scale are all the white notes. For this exercise, I will repeat some of the notes in a second octave, so that 13 notes are displayed.

C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A[/b]
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13

Now we're going to build our first 7th chord starting from C. A seventh chord has 4 notes: 1st (Root), 3rd, 5th, 7th. In other words, you skip every other note in the scale.

So using the scale above, the chord will be:

C E G B.

Since we started on the first note (C), we will call this the '1st' Degree. Don't be put off by the term 'degree' but you know it's the first of a series.

Now we will start with the second note (D), which we will call the '2nd' Degree.
D F A C

Next we will start with the third note (E), which we will call the '3nd' Degree.
E G B D

Are you with me so far? All I'm doing is starting with a specific numbered note and picking every other note after that. If you do this up to seven times you will arrive at the following chart for C Scale (you will come up with a different one for every major scale).

1 - C E G B
2 - D F A C
3 - E G B D
4 - F A C E
5 - G B D F
6 - A C E F
7 - B D F G

No, this is not a secret code chart for decryption \:D . This is quite meaningful in music.

Now although, all the notes above are organized as alternating notes in a scale, someone thinking carefully will notice that the gap between notes is not the same. The reason is that the black keys on your piano are not evenly distributed. Remember Db, Eb, Gb, Ab, Bb? (or translate to sharps if you wish). The point is that the intervals will actually vary between these notes. So if you actually convert them to chords, it will look like this:

1 - C E G B - C Major 7
2 - D F A C - D minor 7
3 - E G B D - E minor 7
4 - F A C E - F Major 7
5 - G B D F - G7
6 - A C E F - A minor 7
7 - B D F G - B minor 7 b5.

To remind us of what kind of chord naturally occurs at each scale degree, we will often express each scale degree in Roman Numerals. We capitalize for major and use lower case for minor. So this will now be:

I - CM7
ii - Dm7
iii - Em7
IV - FM7
V - G7
vi - Am7
vii - Bm7b5

You can do this for any scale. Since we are doing G scale for Autumn Leaves, let me just give you the scale degrees in G:

G Scale: G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, substituted below.

I - GM7
ii - Am7
iii - Bm7
IV - CM7
V - D7
vi - Em7
vii - F#m7b5


Now this is just the miniscule beginning of theory but note that, to answer the earlier question, there is only one place where you will find a Dominant 7. And that is always the fifth degree of a scale. If you think to any music and find a dominant 7, at that point in that music, count back to see what this Dominant 7 is 5th of, and you will find what key you're in.

In Autumn Leaves, we have D7 so we automatically know we are in the key of G. So jazzers are trained to look for Dominant 7's since they are a unique marker. More likely, in Jazz Standards, you will find a pair consisting of the ii degree and the V degree. This is the clincher to key identification. So in Autumn Leaves, we always have a paired Am7 and D7 (ii & V), and that tells us that we are in G.

The difficulty in jazz theory is that in complex jazz tunes, a tune might be in several keys. Some tunes like giant steps will change key at every measure or so.

In Autumn Leaves, the key shifts between G and Em. Now there is another exercise to find the scale degrees of minor scales but let's leave you to mull this over to this point.

Now it is another matter to apply this basic information and it will be quite a revelation for many. Stay tuned...
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 08:06 PM

In music theory (all music, not just jazz), chords in various scale degrees have a function.

Some chords have a tension to them, like it makes you want to move the music. Some chords gives a feeling of stability (or in music we say 'release').

V chords (Dominant 7's) are very high tension chords and these naturally want to go to the I chord (Major 7 chords). I chords don't feel like they want to go anywhere. Other chords have intermediate functions that have a leaning as far as direction goes. The two maj7 chords are the most stable.

Many folk songs, rock songs, classical music, and the blues will commonly use the I, IV and V degree.

So in C this would be the CMaj(I), FMaj(IV), and G7 (V). In other music, typically chords are only triads (first three notes), so the seventh is skipped. In jazz we use 4 notes. If you know the I, IV, and V chord of any scale, you could play 90% of popular music. And this is the basis of many a 'Quickly Learn to Play Piano by Ear' course. They will teach you to recognize the I, IV, V pattern.

Jazz is tremenduously more complicated because other than for the Blues, you will not find this simple chord pattern too often.
Posted by: jazzyprof

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 08:25 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Here's my post of the melody in swing style. As I said, I'm no pro...

http://www.box.net/shared/fwpw2fdycw [/b]
Jazzwee, you deserve a medal for this! I've always wanted to learn to play jazz and now I think I've found the path!

By the way, in your recording of Autumn Leaves are you simply playing roots and sevenths in the left hand and just the melody line in the right? It sounds so much fuller than mine so I wondered if there are some occasional added notes.
Posted by: Steve W

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 08:25 PM

Thanks, jazzwee!

I agree with the medal idea!

It is starting to make sense - will have to re-read a few more times and give it time to soak in.

How about the concept of "key centers?" Where does this come in?
Posted by: ganymed

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 08:28 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
BTW - I've invited some jazz pros to read our posts and so they are out there lurking and giving us the Thumbs up

ganymed, welcome! Are you a pro jazzer? And thanks for answering part of that question. [/b]
First of all I want to say that im very grateful for this thread!


Hey jazzwee. Im 19 and started piano playing 2 years ago. Before I played flute for 8 years

So I am a bloody beginner with classical -
and jazzpiano of course too !! Recently i discovered it for myself and I began to love it! But learning it is not as simple as that T_T.
It is a science \:\(

In order to learn more about Jazz i visit a Jazz Composition course to learn something about the theory at least. But I dont know how to improvise at all!! I'd love to take jazz piano lessons but my the tuition for my classical teacher is all I can afford. So I am accepting the challenge of becoming self-taught.


Im familiar with classical harmony. But when it comes to analyzing a Bach fugue i call it a day. haha. As for jazz, i can play most chords of the lead sheets and play em rather quickly. I learned the inversions of the triads too
I can play all minor and major scales. Thats about it. So you see that i havent got the slightest idea of jazz XD!

Im looking forward towards your next advices \:\) .
Do you use any books to learn jazz piano from ?
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 08:30 PM

jazzprof, I occasionally added a note on my right hand below the melody out of habit. But my LH was playing purely 1/7's.

I wish I could play it better but I'm having to struggle to just like the rest of us here. Just don't ask me to give you advanced jazz technique tips \:D

But as far as theory goes, I think I can hack that ;\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 08:35 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve W:
Thanks, jazzwee!

I agree with the medal idea!

It is starting to make sense - will have to re-read a few more times and give it time to soak in.

How about the concept of "key centers?" Where does this come in? [/b]
Steve W, this will come in heavily when we get to learning how to solo. In order to solo over chord changes, you need to know what notes to pick and these are typically notes of a particular scale. So if you know what key you're in, you don't have to do it by trial and error.

For example in Autumn Leaves, the initial scale to use is "G" scale. You can play any note in G scale in a solo and it will sound correct ('Diatonic' is the formal term).

I'll explain this more in detail as we go along.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 08:40 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ganymed:
Im looking forward towards your next advices \:\) .
Do you use any books to learn jazz piano from ? [/b]
Hi ganymed, I probably have read ALL the jazz books \:D . But most of them repeat the same story.

I learned from 3+ years of jazz lessons from jazz professionals and I'm still with a teacher. So I'm confident I'm not leading anyone astray here \:D

But I'm still an amateur on the 'execution' side and I'm working hard on that front. Welcome to our little thread and keep asking questions.
Posted by: DeepElem

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 08:41 PM

Jeez, this thread took off !!!!

I turn my back for a second and there's 5 pages of stuff.

Ok, I just rushed over to the keyboard and recorded a quick simple version. LH 1,7 and 1,3 like others mentioned early in this thread (that's just what I'm used to doing right now). First time through played like I would normally, second time through tried to push the melody around a bit, not always with a lot of success.

Here\'s my simple version

jazzwee, how is this for this beginning stage of the thread ?

Now off to go read alot of this thread and try to catch up.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 08:48 PM

DeepElem, great job! I'm proud of all of you. You're all making music!

Don't worry that we've done anything different. We're still on 1/7's. The only additional exercise for pre-solo is to do 1/7's in the LH and 3rds on the RH. This is important to get to the solo stage.

And all your recordings sound great. My Zoom H4 is on the blink. It has a little 'Mic Gain' problem so it keeps going from Low to High and distorting my recordings. GRRRR! This is making it a little harder to provide recordings.
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 09:07 PM

This took more effort than I thought, but I finally managed to get through it in ballad tempo without too many mistakes.

http://www.box.net/shared/9faokkyog0

I guess my next step should be to try for a swing rhythm, then I'll deal with some of the other theory stuff I see flying around.

I can see I've got a lot of reading to catch up on in this thread!

Awesome versions posted so far, everyone. Hope you don't mind if I stole shamelessly from a few.

And I agree with the medal thing for Jazzwee! Or maybe we could have an international Jazzwee Day where everyone wears zoot suits or 40's dresses and plays old bebop records. That'd be cool.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 09:23 PM

Sorry if I might have missed it, but could someone please clarify the relationship between Autumn Leaves and the Circle of Fifths/Fourths? I've always been a little confused about it..Thanks! \:\)
Posted by: rintincop

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 10:41 PM

.
Posted by: jotur

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/29/07 11:09 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Elssa:
could someone please clarify the relationship between Autumn Leaves and the Circle of Fifths/Fourths? [/b]
Well, in my folk-style reading of the circle of 5ths, of which rintincop has posted a handy graphic here, I mostly think of the root of the chord. The 5ths are read clockwise - from C "up" the keyboard (or the alphabet \:D ) to G is a 5th, and the G is the V chord in the key of C. So, often, in other keys, one will find a G7, a V7, leading into a C chord, even if G7 isn't normally in that key. You might, for instance, find a G7 chord leading to a C7 chord which leads to the tonic F in the key of F.

But if you read the circle of "5ths" counterclockwise what you are reading is the chord progression of V-I in each pair - G to C, C to F, F to B, etc (yeah, Bb, but for me that's a refinement of the concept). So, in much old 40's popular music you'll find a string of those chord progressions in a piece of music - following the "circle of 4ths" - C "up" to F) - A to D to G to C to F - only they'll all be V7 chords, and not part of the "key" in which the piece is written.

So I've gotten to thinking of *any* A chord, whether it's A7, or Amaj7 or Amin or Adim, or Ab, or whatever, as a "flavor" of a dominant 5th that can lead to some "flavor" of D, and similarly for any of the other progressions.

So the chord progression for the A part of Autumn Leaves features roots from the circle of 4ths - A-D-G-C-F-B-E - counterclockwise around the circle from A, which leads right back to the A again. The B section starts on an F(#) root, and follows the circle of 4ths around again, eventually going far enuf to end on the Em.

That may or may not clarify anything \:D , but it's the way I think of it.

EDIT: LOL - rintincop changed the particular graphic of the circle of 5ths while I was writing my tome, and added a very succinct explanation. Well done, rtc.

Cathy
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 12:08 AM

My friend ritincop is one of our resident jazz pros on Pianoworld so thanks for stepping in!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 12:34 AM

This is a simplified melody of Autumn Leaves.

http://www.box.net/shared/7fjofyaogk

This will just allow all of you to get the timing of the chords and melody right. I do a poor job of phrasing but this is not really jazzy, it serves a utilitarian purpose. Time your melody to the rhythm. I'm playing half notes in the LH, so you can count through it. It's important when playing get the base rhythm down. I know it takes awhile to get there but I will help you. Don't worry if it takes longer than you thought.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 12:44 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Elssa:
Great study group idea! :p

Well, here's something I recorded last year.. It's in ballad form in key of G/Eminor with some arps and runs. When I played it for my jazz teacher at the time, he said it was terrible and really needs to be played with a "swing", not as a ballad! (but here it is anyway). :rolleyes: My goal is to learn to "swing it" and also to improvise with the chords. \:\)

Autumn Leaves
http://www.box.net/shared/0b668mh13j [/b]
Elssa, such beautiful ballad playing. You have excellent piano technique! I thoroughly enjoyed this and I'm sure everyone else did. Even in ballad form it will be a good for getting the timing of the melody with the chords down. Thanks for sharing that.
Posted by: westarm

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 07:32 AM

jazzwee, thanks for the Scale Degree lesson. i kept this site open in another window

http://www.telacommunications.com/nutshell/music/keyboard.htm

and could follow along on the keyboard. helped me with the visual sense of it all.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 11:36 AM

westarm, I didn't expect everyone to try to understand the Scale Degree Lesson. I'm mixing theory and practice here. I'm glad you invested the time to do that though, because it will enhance your understanding later.

Bluekeys, your music post got buried in there. Sorry I didn't comment. Good job!

Now all of us who have posted music should try with future attempts to making sure the melody is correctly lined up with the chords and keeping the LH Rhythm constant at your desired tempo. Let's not be too happy with what we've done. Shoot for the next level. We'll all vote to give a virtual Medal for 'Most Improved'.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 12:52 PM

Thanks all for your nice comments..Everyone sounds terrific! \:\)

So the chord progression for the A part of Autumn Leaves features roots from the circle of 4ths - A-D-G-C-F-B-E - counterclockwise around the circle from A, which leads right back to the A again.[/b]

Yes, I see what you mean about using some form or "flavor" of the root chord. I thought I had read somewhere sometime that Autumn Leaves used a full Circle of 5th/4ths, so that confused me about the F# chord, but they must have just meant using some form of "F", as you say.

Thanks for the chart Rintincop

I'll post my "swung" version when I can get it to sound half decent. \:\)
Posted by: mahlzeit

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 01:05 PM

 Quote:
A-D-G-C-F-B-E[/b]
That's not how I would think of it because it's... wrong. \:\)

The trip around the circle is A-D-G-C ---> jump ---> F#-B-E (repeat).

F# is NOT some form of F even though they both have an "F" in their name.

That's why it makes sense to think of it as two 2-5-1's. Am-D7-G is a 2-5-1 in the key of G, F#m7b5-B7(b9)-Em is a 2-5-1 in the key of Em (which is the relative minor of G). With a C chord to connect the two.
Posted by: mahlzeit

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 01:06 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Now all of us who have posted music should try with future attempts to making sure the melody is correctly lined up with the chords[/b]
What is the point of that? Isn't that the opposite of swinging?
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 01:24 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Now all of us who have posted music should try with future attempts to making sure the melody is correctly lined up with the chords[/b]
What is the point of that? Isn't that the opposite of swinging? [/b]
Isn't swinging also "correctly" aligned with the chords, just differently than straight time?

After hearing Jazz's simple melody, I for one have decided to do more work on straight rhythm before grabbing a vine and letting loose a Tarzan yell. But I don't think the intention was to stop anyone from swinging.
Posted by: RhondaLynne

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 01:35 PM

So I'm currently learning the 1-7 left hand with the single-note melody, straight time, not really atempting any swing-type rhythm yet, since I want to be able to play the 1-7 in the left hand without having to think about it so much. And I'm happy to say that I can read some of the theory-related posts (over and over) and it's beginning to make a little bit of sense, as long as I just take it slowly and not get inpatient with myself.

If all goes well today, I'll post a recording this evening. I love all the recordings I've listened to so far. Very inspiring.
Posted by: jotur

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 02:39 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
 Quote:
A-D-G-C-F-B-E[/b]
That's not how I would think of it because it's... wrong. \:\)
[/b]
Mahlzeit, what'd you expect from the person who hooked up their recording equipment backwards? \:D

I'm aware that "flavor" isn't a technical term in music and that, as pianojerome points out, the places on a staff are *not* "F"s in the key of G, but F#'s. But I routinely find F# major with my fingers by visuallizing the keyboard as I play and moving an F chord up half a step. I in practice as I read music find F#dim by playing the top two notes of an F with an F#. It's a conceptual framework that functions well for me when I'm reading lead sheets, and the sense that the chord's root alphabetic name progresses in 4ths helps me find the places on the keyboard itself quickly, since I play a *lot* of IV-V-I music and I'm really familiar with those changes.

It may well be that as I play more and analyze more and understand more that functional knowledge will shift its conceptualness to ii-V-I \:D \:D \:D

Cathy
Posted by: jotur

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 03:19 PM

Hm. A while back Kreisler was posting classical music and then analyzing it. In the G7-C7-F example that I gave he called the G7 the "applied dominant". I've also thought of it as the "V of the V" chord. And the "circle of 4ths" terminology I read in a "how to play piano with chords" or similar place. The G7 is, of course, built on the second degree of of the F scale, but is not the same chord is the ii chord in F. Nonetheless, for me at this point in time ;\) there is a relationship between Gmin and G7 and the progression to C7 that helps me put a framework on the harmony that's being used.

FWIW, YMMV as Yuri says \:\)

Cathy
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 04:21 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:
 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Now all of us who have posted music should try with future attempts to making sure the melody is correctly lined up with the chords[/b]
What is the point of that? Isn't that the opposite of swinging? [/b]
Isn't swinging also "correctly" aligned with the chords, just differently than straight time?

After hearing Jazz's simple melody, I for one have decided to do more work on straight rhythm before grabbing a vine and letting loose a Tarzan yell. But I don't think the intention was to stop anyone from swinging. [/b]
Hi Guys and Gals, Bluekeys is absolutely correct. I've been emphasizing since the beginning that swing is about exact timing even on the fraction of an eight note. It takes a lot of technique development to do it right.

In the meantime, we have to at least start with playing it straight but correctly aligned to the measure. For example, the start of the melody is not exactly on Am7. There's 'The Fa-lling' and then Am7 starts on 'Leaves'. So the positioning is important. Let's make sure we learn to count and make an even 4/4 on the LH. When you can have good internal beat pulse, only then would you start to play Rubato. Rubato in jazz is not free form time. If you rob time at one point you have to make it up at another point. In cocktail piano, you are able to stretch the time and fit lots of arpeggios in there without concern for the beat. In jazz, there's a constant beat and if you stray, you will be left behind by the bass player and drummer.

So my simple melody is absolutely non-jazz and non-swinging. It is intended to have everyone learn to count the chords. Count 1234 for each chord. You can play a whole on the LH, just count internally for 4 beats.

If you are not exact with the rhythm, you will have no way of aligning accents to offbeats because you won't be aware of where the offbeats are. Swinging comes from this accent alignment which gives the sensation of forward momentum, like you're going to fall on the downbeat.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 04:29 PM

Hi Everyone,

Regarding the Circle of fifths question:

Let me repost the scale degrees and scale again:

G Scale: G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, substituted below.

There is no F in the G scale. G scale has F#

So the scale degrees are as follows:

I - GM7
ii - Am7
iii - Bm7
IV - CM7
V - D7
vi - Em7
vii - F#m7b5

Circle of fifth motion goes like this:

IV CM7
vii F#m7b5
iii Bm7
vi Em7
ii Am7
V D7
I GMaj7

Or just memorize 4-7-3-6-2-5-1.

So do you notice that Autumn Leaves has this?

vii F#m7b5
iii Bm7 (changed to B7b9)
vi Em7

ii Am7
V D7
I GMaj7

Thus, it is true that Autumn Leaves follows the circle of Fifths. But Matthijs is also right in that this:

vii F#m7b5
iii B7b9
vi Em7

is a minor ii-V-i in Em. That's the reason we emphasize the B7b9 instead of leaving the original Bm7 in there.

The mistake in thinking of the Circle is not thinking of the notes of the scale. So think F# in G scale. Not F.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 04:37 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jotur:
Hm. A while back Kreisler was posting classical music and then analyzing it. In the G7-C7-F example that I gave he called the G7 the "applied dominant". I've also thought of it as the "V of the V" chord. And the "circle of 4ths" terminology I read in a "how to play piano with chords" or similar place. The G7 is, of course, built on the second degree of of the F scale, but is not the same chord is the ii chord in F. Nonetheless, for me at this point in time ;\) there is a relationship between Gmin and G7 and the progression to C7 that helps me put a framework on the harmony that's being used.

FWIW, YMMV as Yuri says \:\)

Cathy [/b]
Cathy, this is where it could get confusing.

The progression

G7 - C7 - F could be construed as a non-2-5-1.

Yes you could look at G7 as a substitute for Gm7 but one has to look at the context of an entire tune. An alternative explanation is that between G7 and C7, there's a modulation from C to F. G7 is 5th of C and C7 is 5th of F. In music theory, dominant sevenths are frequently used to to signify modulation.

Frequently this progression is made even clear with a sequence like this:

| Dm7 | G7 | Gm7 | C7 | F |

Notice the gradual changeover between G7 and Gm7. Very common in jazz actually. Also the reverse is done, |Gm7 | G7 | C |
So at Gm7, you think you're going to to C7 but the chord fakes you out and off it goes to a different direction. This is actually one of the 'fun' parts of jazz is that it does this a lot. So the progressions take an unexpected turn.
Posted by: mahlzeit

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 04:47 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
So my simple melody is absolutely non-jazz and non-swinging. It is intended to have everyone learn to count the chords.[/b]
OK, that makes sense. \:\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 05:03 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
So my simple melody is absolutely non-jazz and non-swinging. It is intended to have everyone learn to count the chords.[/b]
OK, that makes sense. \:\) [/b]
Perhaps if we all learned from sheet music we wouldn't have this problem, but I think it is good training since we don't normally work from anything but leadsheets or just a progression.

In retrospect, my coming out with a swinging version the 1st time around may have caused a lot of confusion on the time. I'm learning as we go along here.
Posted by: jotur

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 05:05 PM

posted by jazzwee:

An alternative explanation is that between G7 and C7, there's a modulation from C to F. G7 is 5th of C and C7 is 5th of F. In music theory, dominant sevenths are frequently used to to signify modulation.

Frequently this progression is made even clear with a sequence like this:

| Dm7 | G7 | Gm7 | C7 | F |

Notice the gradual changeover between G7 and Gm7. Very common in jazz actually. - End Quote

Yes, the use of the dominant 7th often signals a modulation - I learned that before I could even say "modulation" - \:D and had asked how to change keys to play a tune in a different key in the context of one long piece, and was told to use the V chord of the key I was going to.

In the Dm7-G7-Gm7-C7-F what I see is the F natural that is common between Dm7 and G7, and the Bb that is common between the Gm7 and the C7, as furthering that progression's sound to get to the F chord. It is interesting to me that jazz players conceptualize it differently and that's part of what I'm interested in this thread for, so I find both yours and Mahlzeit's posts really valuable. It just still helps me to have a "hook to hang my hat on" to see the D-G-G-C-F parts of it, with variations \:\)

EDIT: - whoops, got my quote editing messed up, so just indicated it by hand.

Cathy
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 05:11 PM

Yes, Cathy, the Fmaj7 would be common to both key of C and key of F. But that's where context comes in (what came before and what comes after).

In jazz, though, you wouldn't modulate from F back to C without some intervening progression, i.e. I couldn't think of F as belonging to a C scale at that point.

In Autumn Leaves, one modulates to by having a sequence like GMaj7 CMaj7 (similar to your C to F example). In the case of your original progression, since C7 went to F, then I look at that as V I.

C7 F C would be a modulation on the final C.

Interesting stuff huh?

Sorry I missed the [BRAIN EXPLOSION WARNING] but you guys started this \:D
Posted by: BLScape

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 05:17 PM

Hey Guys!

Just found this thread! Lot's of good stuff. Thanks for the reference in the thread I posted.
Posted by: RhondaLynne

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 05:58 PM

A question for anyone here - I'm playing 1-7 in the left hand and my left hand is all over the place with roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc.

Is this right? Thanks.
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 06:29 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
A question for anyone here - I'm playing 1-7 in the left hand and my left hand is all over the place with roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc.

Is this right? Thanks. [/b]
I can't say whether it's right or wrong, but I'm doing the same thing with one exception. In the sequence that goes |Em7 A7|Dm7 G7| I play the 1/7s for the Em7 and the Dm7 using the keys next to each other (D3E3 for Em7 and C3D3 for Dm7) I think it's easier to do and sounds better. Hopefully that won't mess me up later. (My initial recording didn't do that, though.)
Posted by: jazzyprof

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 06:46 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
A question for anyone here - I'm playing 1-7 in the left hand and my left hand is all over the place with roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc.

Is this right? Thanks. [/b]
Yes, this is right, for now. I think the idea is to first learn the shapes of the 1-7 voicings. Later on I believe we'll find that alternating 1-7 with 1-3 makes for much smoother voice leading and your hand won't jump around as much.
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 07:15 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc.
[/b]
RhondaLynne - I tried both approaches:

1 - A up to D down to G ... (like you are doing), and
2 - A down to D up to G ...

I thought that the approach that you are using sounded the best because it kept the root and seventh a little bit higher on the keyboard. The other approach moved the two base notes too low and and they sounded kind of muddy. (at least on my keyboard.)
Posted by: rintincop

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 09:52 PM

.
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 10:13 PM

re accents...

I am working on accents. Should I accent the notes under both hands, or just the right hand?

Also, when I play, the notes coming from my left hand just seem too loud. When I listen to the recordings that you folks have posted on the thread, your right hand melodies really sparkle through clearly. Your left hand harmonies are much more subdued than mine and in balance with the melody. Does anybody have any tips on how to lighten the left hand? Could my piano bench be off level, maybe listing a bit to one side? ;\)
Posted by: rintincop

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 11:31 PM

.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 11:41 PM

Thanks Ritincop. I always soften my LH. 1/7 played loud can sound kind of harsh.

BTW guys - I'm teaching you to practice 1/7's because in Lesson #2 (several pages back), I'm having you do 3rds in the RH. See the post with 3 notes for the Autumn Leaves chords. You need to follow the 3rd movements in your RH so you can get used to that for solos.

A beginner's solo approach is to start enhancing the 3rds with approach notes and suddenly you will be playing some real melodies. So although 1/7 and 1/3 is better for smooth voice leading, it is much easier to learn than sticking to 1/7's only so, if you can, stick the to 1/7 methodology and start playing 3rds in your RH.

You can switch between both methods if you like, and certainly 1/7 1/3 is ok when playing just the melody. But the important exercise here which will develop you later is playing 3rds on the RH, and actually understanding that they are thirds of the chords you're working with.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 11:43 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
re accents...

I am working on accents. Should I accent the notes under both hands, or just the right hand?
;\) [/b]
The only time I would ever think about accenting the LH would be if I'm playing a walking bass line. So in general, the LH plays straight and accenting is on the RH.

Remember that accenting is on 8th notes only. There are no accents to worry about (that you can specifically practice) on quarter notes or sixteenth notes.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/30/07 11:48 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc.
[/b]
RhondaLynne - I tried both approaches:

1 - A up to D down to G ... (like you are doing), and
2 - A down to D up to G ...

I thought that the approach that you are using sounded the best because it kept the root and seventh a little bit higher on the keyboard. The other approach moved the two base notes too low and and they sounded kind of muddy. (at least on my keyboard.) [/b]
Keyboardjungle, using 1/7's, the Am7 is played on A2 then D3, then G2, then C3. So don't play too low on the keyboard or it will sound muddy.

Those who are using 1/3's will also sound better higher on the keyboard. 1/7 1/3's can also work in A3 then D4, G3 and C4. I might switch them around once in awhile to vary the sound.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 12:29 AM

That's why it makes sense to think of it as two 2-5-1's. Am-D7-G is a 2-5-1 in the key of G, F#m7b5-B7(b9)-Em is a 2-5-1 in the key of Em (which is the relative minor of G). With a C chord to connect the two.[/b]

Thanks, Matt...That's the main way I'm going to think of this song from now on - a couple of good ol' 2-5-1 patterns. \:D
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 01:43 AM

Elssa, there is an advantage in improvisation later on from thinking of it as one whole circle of fifth thing vs. two sets of 2-5-1's.

If you think of just one whole diatonic scale, then your solo choices are limited to the G Scale diatonic notes.

If you think of the minor 2-5-1 as being separate, minor 2-5-1's use a different scale for each chord which opens up tremenduous choices in improvisation. This changes the color of the tune and makes a possibly bland tune a pretty open platform in jazz playing.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 02:55 AM

It's so interesting the way the keys change back and forth between major and minor in this tune.. guess that's kind of unusual, huh?
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 10:04 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jazzwee:
[QB] Thanks Ritincop. I always soften my LH. 1/7 played loud can sound kind of harsh.

BTW guys - I'm teaching you to practice 1/7's because in Lesson #2 (several pages back), I'm having you do 3rds in the RH. See the post with 3 notes for the Autumn Leaves chords. You need to follow the 3rd movements in your RH so you can get used to that for solos.

A beginner's solo approach is to start enhancing the 3rds with approach notes and suddenly you will be playing some real melodies. So although 1/7 and 1/3 is better for smooth voice leading, Jazzwee - This has me perplexed, because most of the melody notes in this tune are the third of the chord. I printed your post and went through it chord by chord, just to make sure that I understood.

So, with a very few exceptions, I am playing 1/7 in LH and a single melody note, the 3rd, in the RH. Am I on the right track?

In some cases, such as the D7 that is played over "drift by my window", the melody starts on the 1st (D) and moves up to the 3rd(F#). In such cases, would it be acceptable to play 1/3 in the right hand over the word "drift" by putting the 3rd *above* the melody note?
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 10:09 AM

The next quarterly recital is going to be interesting - 6 zillion submissions of Autumn Leaves... \:\)
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 11:45 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
A question for anyone here - I'm playing 1-7 in the left hand and my left hand is all over the place with roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc. Is this right? Thanks. [/b]
Hi RhondaLynne,

It's just a thought but... I found if you use 51 31 fingering for each 'pair' of 7ths it feels much more natural, i.e. 51 for Am7 then 31 for D7 etc. I also found rotating/sliding rather than jumping made it much easier. i.e. as if you were trying to play the LH legato but let go early kindasortaish... \:\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 12:07 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
So, with a very few exceptions, I am playing 1/7 in LH and a single melody note, the 3rd, in the RH. Am I on the right track?

In some cases, such as the D7 that is played over "drift by my window", the melody starts on the 1st (D) and moves up to the 3rd(F#). In such cases, would it be acceptable to play 1/3 in the right hand over the word "drift" by putting the 3rd *above* the melody note? [/b]
Keyboardjungle, no that's not what I mean. I'm saying as a separate practice, play 1/7 on the left and 3rd on the RH but with no melody.

This is training for improvisation/solo.

Remember the jazz format: You play the melody (Head) one time. Then you solo. Then you play the Head again to end the tune. Since we haven't learned to solo, just do LH 1/7 and RH 3 and familiarize your ears and fingers with that landscape. When you feel like taking the leap, start adding a note or two to the 3rd. Use long notes, like a horn player. For simple ballad style, during the solo, just arpeggiate the whole chord or modify the melody a little bit or mix up the 3rds and the melody.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 12:24 PM

LESSON #3

Progressing from LH 1/7's[/b]

BTW, we haven't really formally discussed 1/7's and 1/3's on the LH. But those doing this would actually do the following fingering on Am7 - D7:

Style A[/b]

Am7 (LH fingers 51 playing 1/7), D7 (LH fingers 32 or 21 playing 1/3)

Edit: (Note that 21 works better in Am7 and 32 works better in F#m7b5.)

And you could do this:

Style B[/b]

Am7 (LH fingers 521 playing 1/5/7), D7 (LH fingers 531 playing 1/3/7). This is the fuller LH sound and is an easy natural next step from the LH 1/7.

Style A is in preparation for two handed chords. Style B is good for chords on LH only which leaves the RH free to do only the melody or solo.

I would learn both ways. Now notice that the Am7 has a 5 in the middle while the the D7 has a 3 in the middle. This is because lower chords (Like root at A2) get muddy with a 3rd. The 5th is high enough. On the other hand, the D7 does not sound muddy with a 3rd (D3).

So basically in this style of playing add a middle note to the chord, a 5th or 3rd depending on which is less muddy.

BTW - those wanting to play cocktail style could arpeggiate the 3 notes slowly on the LH. (Those more advanced could arpeggiate 1, 7, 10 or 1, 5, 10).
Posted by: RhondaLynne

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 12:59 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LaValse:
 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
A question for anyone here - I'm playing 1-7 in the left hand and my left hand is all over the place with roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc. Is this right? Thanks. [/b]
Hi RhondaLynne,

It's just a thought but... I found if you use 51 31 fingering for each 'pair' of 7ths it feels much more natural, i.e. 51 for Am7 then 31 for D7 etc. I also found rotating/sliding rather than jumping made it much easier. i.e. as if you were trying to play the LH legato but let go early kindasortaish... \:\) [/b]
LaValse - Much better - Thank you. (it didn't even occur to me to use that fingering!)
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 01:18 PM

Matt, I was wondering what you think of this site?

The Magic Wand that turns Summer into Autumn:

http://esvc001419.wic024u.server-web.com/articles/aut.htm


"But Johnny Mercer is a lot smarter than you perhaps think. The B7 is not a spoil sport at all, but instead a magic wand, turning the bright G major summer sound instantly into the darker E minor autumn mood.

The Am7 - D7 - GΔ - CΔ is clearly a segment of the G major scale. However the dominant B7 chord converts the F#ø chord before it as the IIø chord in an E minor IIø - V7 - Im segment.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 01:24 PM

Elssa, that's exactly what we've been discussing! Great post.

The effect of that in improvisation is significant. Although there will really be more to it when we discuss scales to use for each chord. But I will hold off discussing all that so we don't get everyone too confused.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 01:28 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
 Quote:
Originally posted by LaValse:
 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
A question for anyone here - I'm playing 1-7 in the left hand and my left hand is all over the place with roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc. Is this right? Thanks. [/b]
Hi RhondaLynne,

It's just a thought but... I found if you use 51 31 fingering for each 'pair' of 7ths it feels much more natural, i.e. 51 for Am7 then 31 for D7 etc. I also found rotating/sliding rather than jumping made it much easier. i.e. as if you were trying to play the LH legato but let go early kindasortaish... \:\) [/b]
LaValse - Much better - Thank you. (it didn't even occur to me to use that fingering!) [/b]
RhondaLynne, in the lesson#3 I posted, the fingering for 1/7 1/3 is

51 and 32. That's the smoothest.

But don't feel uncomfortable jumping up and down the keyboard playing 1/7's. In slow playing that's perfectly normal. It's automatic to me now.

In stride playing, you're playing roots on the far left and jumping to a chord in the middle. We will be discussing this kind of playing so what I'm discussing will be a natural movement.
Posted by: DeepElem

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 03:18 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
RhondaLynne, in the lesson#3 I posted, the fingering for 1/7 1/3 is 51 and 32. That's the smoothest.[/b]
FWIW, my jazz teacher will sometimes tell me a couple of fingering options for something like this and says to try them all and stick with whatever is most comfortable for me. Of course for some things he has a "strongly recommended" fingering, but this isn't one of those cases.

jazzwee, is there something coming up for which fingering the 1/3 as 32 is important ?
Posted by: jazzyprof

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 04:01 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
LESSON #3

Progressing from LH 1/7's[/b]

[/b]
OMG, we're already up to lesson 3?!!! I guess I've been a slacker...still trying to master lesson 1! \:\)

I think we're going to need an index to the lessons and the theory discussions. Perhaps we can compile such an index and add it to the first post of this thread indicating where things may be found. As this thread swells to a monster size it will be difficult to wade through all its pages to find, for example, "how to swing."

OK, taking a stab at an index:
Autumn Leaves changes
Swing
Learning to swing
Lesson 1
Lesson 2
Lesson 3
Shell voicings (1/7)
Circle of Fifths
2-5-1
Scale degrees and scale tone seventh chords
Shell voicing with added RH third
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 04:53 PM

jazzprof, if you can help me with maintaining the indexing I'd appreciate it. I'll post it at the top. This is one hell of a project!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 05:00 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by DeepElem:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
RhondaLynne, in the lesson#3 I posted, the fingering for 1/7 1/3 is 51 and 32. That's the smoothest.[/b]
FWIW, my jazz teacher will sometimes tell me a couple of fingering options for something like this and says to try them all and stick with whatever is most comfortable for me. Of course for some things he has a "strongly recommended" fingering, but this isn't one of those cases.

jazzwee, is there something coming up for which fingering the 1/3 as 32 is important ? [/b]
Yes, DeepElem, fingering 1/3 as 32 will allow you to play it legato and it will allow for quick movement. If you switch from 1/7 to 1/3 with 51 31 fingering, you'll have to pedal the chord change. Also the LH 1 being free allows you to have it available for the next chord.

Edit: You can also play 21 fingering instead of 32. For me 21 works on Am7 and 32 works better on F#m7b5

There's a specific two handed chord playing I will discuss later that specifically uses this fingering which will be 2 + 3 voicings (two notes on LH and 3 notes on RH. This voicing is good for comping (accompaniment).
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 05:04 PM

Moderator C7 Player has kindly added this thread to the 'Important Topics in AB Forum' so we are now an official study group!
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 06:54 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzyprof:
OMG,
we're already up to lesson 3?!!! I guess I've been a slacker...still trying to master lesson 1! \:\)

I think we're going to need an index to the lessons and the theory discussions. [/b]
You are not a slacker, Prof! I'm not only still on 1, but struggling mightily with it. My left hand just won't obey my brain and wants to go to F# instead of G after the D7. Also I still only hit the bouncy LH changes in the B sec maybe 1 out of 3 times.

Anyway, the index is very helpful. Thanks! \:\)
Posted by: jotur

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 09:59 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
Heh, only when you try to record do you realize the kind of trouble you're in. \:D [/b]
Amen. Here's my first recording. My fans are gonna be disappointed \:D \:D

www.box.net/shared/mmrhi734k4

However, I did reread parts of this thread last night and I can now see the ii-V-I's, including when I play! Progress -

I'll have to wait till Weds at work to listen to more of the recordings here - I won't be getting high speed here at home until late spring, due to changing jobs, spending money on a new car, and an upcoming trip to New Zealand in March, which have all contributed to a little less excess money for awhile. But I'm looking forward to it -

Cathy
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 12/31/07 11:46 PM

Cathy - that's very good! Everything is on the correct beat so you've won half the battle.

On the LH just do whole notes and very lightly. Or slurred half notes.

You're just like me -- practicing piano on New Year's Eve!
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/01/08 12:55 AM

Ok here's my second version

http://www.box.net/shared/0q22ga144s

this time no swinging, 1-7 in the lh and 3rd in the rh + melody. When the melody is the 3rd I play a 5th.

Serge
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/01/08 01:09 AM

Serge88, that sounds great! I think you need to get promoted now. Melody is in perfect synch to the chords.

Swing can be practiced side by side but it takes awhile to get that mastered just like any piano technique. So keep doing swing but don't let it hold you back.

You need to move into the improvisation side now and start to 'blow' as they say. Now see if you can begin to focus on making an alternate melody but keep it anchored to the 3rds initially. Later, eye all the chord tones (root, 5th, and 7th as well).
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/01/08 03:29 AM

This must be the best version of Autumn Leaves I have ever heard. Done at a very slow swing tempo. Jazz at it's best.

Album: Somethin' Else
Art Blakely
Hank Jones
Cannonball Adderly
Miles Davis

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Somethin-Else-Remastered-Cannonball-Adderley/dp/B00000I41J

If you have an Ipod, invest in this track.

Most of it isn't piano but there's so much to learn here.
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/01/08 11:12 AM

This is pretty cool - an annotated/animated video; nice playing too to my novice ears...

http://www.bushgrafts.com/jazz/Movies/Autumn%20Leaves_0004.wmv

http://www.bushgrafts.com/jazz/Movies/AutumnLeaves2.pdf

Found here:-

http://www.bushgrafts.com/jazz/video.htm
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/01/08 12:55 PM

Can somebody clarify register nomenclaturefor me?

- The first full octave is C0...B0.
- The octave that starts on middle C is C3...B3.
- This would make the first A on the keyboard A-1.

Am I correct?
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/01/08 01:08 PM

KeyboardJungle, I don't know about official nomenclature is but I counted the first full octave as 1, at least in my comments to you. So I looked at middle C as C4.

I don't count the partial octave so maybe I'll call that zero.

I don't know if it's correct or not but at least that's the reference I used.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/01/08 03:19 PM

I think the most common nomenclature puts middle C at C-4. The numbering starts with the lowest C as C-1. The A and B below this are A-0 and B-0.

Edit: OK, just checked my keyboard and it calls low C C-0 and middle C C-3. Hmmmm, dunno what's correct. Is there no common standard? Pretty confusing.
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/01/08 04:34 PM

Hi All, may I join you please?

Firstly, a Happy New Year to everyone! I lurked for a short while, trying to build up sufficient confidence. Already, I have learned a lot from the many contributions & particularly JAZZWEE's explanations. Clearly a lot of effort & time has been put into this and I agree JAZZWEE deserves a medal (GOLD).

OK, I'm not very good, as you will see by the linked midi file recording (sorry, no MP3 facility), but I hope to improve.

http://www.box.net/shared/n33cqww008

I recognise, I need to tighten up my timing, quieten my left hand, learn expression & articulation plus a multitude of other problems, but it's great fun learning.

Will you have me?

David
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/01/08 05:02 PM

David, you are more than welcome! Thanks for posting your music. Melody is right on the chords so you're on the right track.

Swing is a bit difficult to teach so keep reading the swing discussions and the longer writeup in the related thread. It will take awhile to achieve swing inflection so I recommend to most of you that you supplement our thread here with a lot of listening to jazz masters. Listen to the Rhythm section in particular to that you hear what you can do on the LH.

In the meantime, I hope everyone takes a stab at improvisation and learn to create alternate melodies.
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/01/08 05:33 PM

Thanks, now I need to practice some more!

David
Posted by: rintincop

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/01/08 05:42 PM

.
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/01/08 08:03 PM

If anyone is interested, here is a clean midi file that sort of matches the simplified melody jazzwee posted. By clean, I mean I entered it through the computer keyboard, so all notes have precise (albeit mechanical-sounding) values. The bass and treble are on separate tracks, so if you have midi program like Anvil Studio, you can mute one and play the other, or you can change note values, or whatever. Also, if you have a program like MidiNotate you can use it to print out a lead sheet that matches jazz's version a little closer than some of the others floating around.

http://mysite.verizon.net/mdavidso1/midi/al_crude.mid

FYI - Both Anvil and MidiNotate have free versions available.

Anvil:
http://www.anvilstudio.com/upgraden.htm

MidiNotate:
http://www.notation.com/MidiNotatePlayer.htm
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/01/08 09:42 PM

Lucky for us, we have lurking jazz pros that give us comments.

So I learned an alternate fingering for 1/7(ii), 1/3(V) which I will share.

I was taught the fingering of 51 32. Apparently there's an alternate fingering for ii-V which is referred to as the 'Claw' and can be used in all 12 keys.

This fingering is is 51,21. I've just tried it and I can see that it has an advantage of moving easier to the I chord. I planning on shifting to this fingering, it seems to work well for me so I passing it along to all of you.

I've edited the above references to 32 fingering to also note the 21 fingering.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/01/08 09:51 PM

thanks Bluekeys for posting the MIDI file. That will be great for getting everyone to get the changes and the melody in synch.

I noticed that just about everyone had a problem with the LH doing a swing rhythm. Beginners need to learn to do what is called a Charleston Rhythm of the 20's. In this is the Rhythm that should be on the LH. This will lead the way to more complex rhythms. I have to find a way to demonstrate this or refer to a video.

My memory is that it is played on Beat 1, and 2+. Maybe bluekeys can experiment with it on MIDI.

This is the starting LH for jazz.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/02/08 01:33 AM

SWING

If you get a chance, watch this youtube video of someone swinging. It clearly demonstrates my point that it's all in the accents. This gentleman plays eights near the straight side (more even) which is like the way I would play.

Watch his accents on the upbeat (the +) and that's what makes it swing. He's playing 'Rhythm Changes'.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8Fl3SrXrDHw

Here's another guy. He get's into eight notes further in to the tune though. This gentlemen plays straight eights even at a slower tempo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dE7GsFGolig&feature=related

Now Oscar Peterson does not play straight eights, as he's more of a heavy swinger, but the point is that all these examples show that the primary element is not just the triplet feel (which may be absent), but the accent is always there.

So this is hopefully what everyone is practicing on the RH - offbeat accents.

I'm still looking for a demonstration of the Charleston Rhythm for the LH, but in the absence of that, play the chord briefly on beat 1 and 2+. Count it out and you will see what I mean.

Notice there's a lot of counting in jazz. It's all about the rhythm.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/02/08 04:03 AM

SWING PART 2

After more careful thought and discussion with the pros, I think it would be best if we didn't syncopate the LH and just played straight half notes (full value) but light volume. And practice putting the swing into the melody. This will be a better baby step. It might be hard to swing both hands simultaneously at this early stage.
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/02/08 12:32 PM

Jazzwee,

I need a checkpoint on my understanding - We should accent the notes corresponding to lyrics that are enclosed in below?

fall leaves
by window
aut leaves...

What about measures with whole notes - accent the note or not?
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/02/08 12:49 PM

Keyboardjungle based on your melody as shown in this link you passed to me,(thanks for passing this on BTW),

http://esvc001419.wic024u.server-web.com/articles/autsoc.gif

apparently, the original has no eight notes so there's no accent. Play the quarter notes marcato (detached). I've been playing this by ear and listening to various versions and never studied the original melody. In jazz tunes, each player will often modify the melody. I think I learned the original melody from Oscar Peterson's version and he made the 1st note an eight note pickup so it had an accent. So I was playing it differently, like this,

< The> fall -ing leaves
< drift> by my window
< The> aut-umn leaves...

With the first note being changed to an eight note. So at least the sheet music makes it clear that my version is derived from another version (Oscar).

Remember that jazz is a lot about listening. I listened to 5 different versions of the melody yesterday and some of them turn some the notes into eights and some keep it at quarter notes. So this changes the accents quite a bit.

Just remember that if you're going to play it with quarter notes as in the original melody, the quarter notes are detached. Not full value, i.e insert a short rest. Do not play quarter notes legato.

It is up to you to pick whichever melody style you like, or invent your own.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/02/08 05:15 PM

Jazzwee, could we update the index to take us directly to the posts in question? Like this:

Autumn Leaves Changes
Swing version from jazzwee
Professional versions
Learning to swing
Lesson 1
Lesson 2
Lesson 3
Shell voicings (1/7)
Circle of fifths
2-5-1
Scale degrees
Shell voicings with added RH 3rd

Please double check these as I wasn't 100% sure I was linking to the post referenced.

For future reference, to generate the URLs for these links, just click the little yellow thing just before the posted on date at the very top of each post. Or hover over it and your browser will tell you what it is down in the status bar.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/02/08 05:26 PM

Quoting from Wikipedia[/b]

 Quote:

Swung Note[/b]
In music, a swung note or shuffle note is the rhythmic device in which the duration of the initial note in a pair is augmented and that of the second is diminished. This term for what is known as "notes inégales" has been in use in jazz music and its descentants.

A swing or shuffle rhythm is the rhythm produced by playing repeated pairs of notes in this way. Lilting can refer to swinging, but might also indicate syncopation or other subtle ways of interpreting and shaping musical time.

In some jazz music, especially of the big band era, there is a convention that pairs of written eighth notes are not played equally--as the notation would otherwise be understood--but with the first longer than the second. The first note of each of these pairs is often understood to be twice as long as the second, implying a quarter note-eighth note triplet feel, but in practice the difference is rarely that pronounced (see "amount of swing," below). This is an assumed convention of notation in many styles of jazz, but usually does not apply to jazz before the early 1930s, latin jazz, bebop, or to the work of composers writing in the 1950s or later, unless "swing" is specified in the score.

Notes that are not swung are called straight notes.

Another important aspect of swung eighth notes is to slightly accent the "+" or second eighth note of each pair. In modern jazz where nearly even eighths has become common they still slightly accent every second eighth note of each pair to achieve a hint of swing. Latin musicians play straight eighths and will say they are "swinging" when they slightly accent the second eighth note of every even pair.

In dance, swing or shuffle time or rhythm is music whose meter is that of common time played with a swing. It may be written as simple time and played with a swing, or as compound time and played as written. See transcribing swing rhythms below.

Amount of swing[/b]

People sometimes mistakenly indicate swing rhythms by marking their scores with an indication that pairs of eighth notes should be treated as a quarter and an eighth in a triplet bracket. In actuality, swing rhythms range anywhere from slightly asymmetrical pairs to imbalances of a more pronounced sort (due to the mathematical nature of dividing one beat into 3 equal beats). The subtler end of the range involves treating written pairs of eighth notes as slightly asymmetrical pairs of similar values. On the other end of the spectrum, the "dotted eighth - one sixteenth" rhythm, consists of a long note three times as long as the short. Prevalent "dotted rhythms" such as these in the rhythm section of dance bands in the mid 20th century are more accurately described as a "shuffle"; they are also an important feature of baroque dance and many other styles. Rhythms identified as swung notes most commonly fall somewhere between straight eighths and a quarter-eighth triplet pattern.

The following points of reference are reliable only as approximations of musical practice:

1:1 = eighth note + eighth note, "straight eighths."
3:2 = long eighth + short eighth, "swing" or "shuffle"
2:1 = triplet quarter note + triplet eighth, triple meter; "medium swing" or "medium shuffle"
3:1 = dotted eighth note + sixteenth note; "hard swing", or "hard shuffle"
Since a swung note is actually not a note of the named length (a swung eighth note is not an eighth note), some musicians consider this term a misnomer.

A scientific analysis was done of Bill Evans eighth note swing ratio that revealed that he varied his swing ratio from pair to pair. Also, in general swing ratios tend to get get wider at slower tempos and narrower at faster tempos. Musicians often have different swing ratios and swing ratios can be effected by who you are playing with (drummers cymbal)... etc


Straight eight playing is common to certain Jazz artists. Nowadays, it would be the signature of Chick Corea, or Brad Mehldau. A lot of modern jazz artists, Kenny Werner comes to mind, tend to play straighter eights. Latin jazz artists will play straight eights as well and rely on accents. For Keith Jarret the accents would be more subtle. Even among older artists, Lennie Tristano played mostly with accents and straight eights.

Artists like Errol Garner, Red Garland, Wynton Kelly, Monty Alexander, McCoy Tyner, Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans (at fast tempo) are heavy swingers.

It will be interesting for everyone to listen to these artists (many of them or on Youtube) and get a sample of their swing style. Eventually you'll pick something that feels good to you.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/02/08 05:32 PM

deeluk, thanks. It's done. But some of the links don't seem to be pointing to the correct item (like Circle of Fifths).

It's really great when everyone is taking ownership of this thread. This will be a nice long term reference.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/02/08 07:40 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
deeluk, thanks. It's done. But some of the links don't seem to be pointing to the correct item (like Circle of Fifths).[/b]
Yeah, that was one of the ones where I wasn't sure where the original reference was pointing. Was it to the circle diagram, or was it to your explanation that followed. I assumed the latter. If that's incorrect, please correct me.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/02/08 07:43 PM

Errr, check that. That link is completely wrong. It's pointing to lesson 3. Here's what is should be:

Circle of fifths
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/02/08 07:51 PM

All set thanks!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/02/08 11:48 PM

NON-LESSON[/b]

Not everything is about lessons. Since jazz is about listening, here are some jazz masters you can sample. These are three very unique individuals in jazz.


Brad Mehldau - Resignation
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ahkl1ZpFtxU&feature=related

Brad Mehldau is a new type of jazz playing. Probably not sounding like anyone else in the past. Very heavy classical influence.


Lennie Tristano - Tangerine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGLpczTtnEM

Lennie is old school, and was quite a unique force in jazz. Listen to the way he plays with his straight eights and heavy accent. This is now the modern way that jazz artists swing. It appears that Lennie was way ahead of his time.

Chick Corea - On Green Dolphin St
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9NeIj1NwKvA&feature=related

This is a guy on top of the food chain. This dude doesn't swing legato. He swings detached. At blistering speeds. He hardly ever plays standards nowadays so this is a rare treat to his past. Very unique jazz player.

Enjoy.
Posted by: rintincop

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/03/08 02:29 AM

.
Posted by: rintincop

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/03/08 02:45 AM

.
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/03/08 11:03 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Keyboardjungle based on your melody as shown in this link you passed to me,(thanks for passing this on BTW),
http://esvc001419.wic024u.server-web.com/articles/autsoc.gif

[/b]
Hi Jazzwee, any comment on that score sheet? the chords are different at the end, it use a half step down.

Could it be better than the one you gave us?

Serge
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/03/08 11:47 AM

I forgot to make a comment on that. Serge, just use our changes. That's the Bill Evans changes which are "Tritone Substitutes". In essence they are the same but Bill Evans made a substitution. Substitutions are common in jazz and as you get more advanced, you will naturally learn to convert to either form at will.

It this point in time though, it will be too advanced to solo through those changes as you will have to get into 'Altered' scales. So we'll leave that for later in the program. When I actually play Autumn Leaves, I do a lot of substitutions for a jazzy effect. But this is stuff I've actually been doing only recently. Substitutions affect your solo choices so you need to first know all the scale choices before we can get into that.

This is why, BTW, Autumn Leaves is an excellent learning platform because you can do all these substitutions to it and then you can apply it to any other ii-V-I based tune.

But very good spotting Serge. Let's me know you're on the ball
Posted by: The Emperor

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/03/08 06:25 PM

I learn this track the other day from an old instructional video of Talc Tolchin.

I play it with the root and 7th in the left hand and the right hand doing the melody and adding the rest of the chord notes(sometime adding octave of the 7th or the root as well), it's easy to learn and sounds nice.

Was my first jazz piece so to speak, i'm reading a mark levine book as we speak and getting more into jazz, it's pretty fun to just improvise over some basic II-V-I progressions.
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/03/08 06:39 PM

Jazzwee,

I've been following this thread with great interest. Thanks for taking the time.

Q: I have often read about the ii-V-I changes being common to jazz but three chord changes (an odd number) seem at odds with the pattern of four bars established in AL. I wonder if this is true in other jazz pieces? Is it common to add IV to this as in AL? I realize this is just going backwards in fourths.

Anyway, I just started working with this, lots of fun!
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/03/08 06:43 PM

My wife bought me a jazz piano book for xmas ( as well as a very nice Roland FP7 \:\) ) and I'd like to mention it because unlike any other books I have (including Levine) it starts, like jazzwee has, on rhythm and spends significant time on straight/swung 8ths etc with lots of clapping-type exercises. You don't play a single note of melody in chapter 1 and only a few in chapter 2.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jazz-Piano-Scratch-How-Students/dp/1860960154

It compliments jazzwee's approach nicely, is an ABRSM standard and has an unusually useful CD.

PS: is it just me, or is everybody else posessed/haunted by this tune - I was woken up in the night a few times by strong winds only to find Autumn Leaves playing through my mind, ditto in a meeting at the sailing club tonight... weirdly though there is always a double bass there as well...

I'm hooked...

\:\)
Posted by: jotur

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/03/08 06:49 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LaValse:

PS: is it just me, or is everybody else posessed/haunted by this tune - I was woken up in the night a few times by strong winds only to find Autumn Leaves playing in my mind, ditto in a meeting at the sailing club tonight... weirdly though there is always a double bass there as well...

I'm hooked...

\:\) [/b]
Whew! It's not just me - it's driving me nuts \:D It comes in different rhythms as well as just a single note melody. Guess I'll know that part pretty well, anyway -

Cathy
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/03/08 08:44 PM

I'm lovin' the vid links, but I gotta admit some of the technical discussion of swing rhythms is flying right over my head.

Anyway, here's my first shot at said swing rhythm. I just basically copied some of the earlier attempts in my own "style" (such as it is).

http://www.box.net/shared/tmvwgilc0s

I think I'm about 6 pages behind the curve, but my next step is to play around with the RH 3rds. I may do a midi of swing rhythm if I get a better handle on it, but that could be a while.

And yep, every morning I wake up with Autumn Leaves playing in my head too. At least now it's swinging a little bit. \:\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/03/08 08:44 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by stegerson:
Jazzwee,

I've been following this thread with great interest. Thanks for taking the time.

Q: I have often read about the ii-V-I changes being common to jazz but three chord changes (an odd number) seem at odds with the pattern of four bars established in AL. I wonder if this is true in other jazz pieces? Is it common to add IV to this as in AL? I realize this is just going backwards in fourths.

Anyway, I just started working with this, lots of fun! [/b]
Hi Stegerson, I believe we answer this already above. See the discussion on Scale Degrees. This piece follows two forms:

(1) Circle of Fifths - (3 sets of ii-V's, although not all V's are V7's). Look at Root movement only it will 4-7-3-6-2-5-1 (4th apart). Tune doesn't start on 4 however.
(2) It is also a Major ii-V-I connected to a minor ii-V-i connected by a IV.

FYI - Minor and Major ii-V-I's are two different things.
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/03/08 09:44 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:
Anyway, here's my first shot at said swing rhythm. [/b]
Hey Bluekeys, sounds great. This is the same left hand pattern that I was working on. Thanks for posting it.

I'd definitely toss a couple of bucks in your tip jar.
Posted by: frog52

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/03/08 10:49 PM

Jazzwee,

Awesome study group. I would like to join.

I have a question and a comment:

Question[/b]
  • I know you are trying to make us go back to a simpler LH, but please, pretty please, describe your LH syncopation in your first "swinged" version.
  • Was the LH coming in always on counts 1[/b] and 2&[/b]? Or were you sometimes doing 1&[/b] and 3[/b]?
  • My piano teacher (classical) said something about syncopating the LH every 1.5 beats (in 4/4), and it would be jazzy.


Comment[/b]
  • "Autumn Leaves" is actually a French melody "Les Feuilles Mortes" composed in 1945 by Joseph Kosma on a beautiful poem by Jacques Prevert.
  • Johny Mercer adapted it in 1945, and it became a Jazz standard.
  • Anyhow, the French version has an intro section that never seems to be played in Jazz, or heard in English versions. Our Jazz version is really only the chorus.
  • The "Autumn" Leaves are really "Dead" Leaves, and as the poem goes: dead leaves are picked up with a shovel, memories & regrets too(!)
  • I recommend you listen to Yves Montand singing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqRSwcO38C4&feature=related


Voila,
Rod.
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/03/08 11:09 PM

 Quote:
(1) Circle of Fifths - (3 sets of ii-V's, although not all V's are V7's). Look at Root movement only it will 4-7-3-6-2-5-1 (4th apart). Tune doesn't start on 4 however.
O.K., I follow that completely so:

2 Am7
5 D7
1 Gmaj7
4 Cmaj7
7 F#m7b5
3 B7b9
6 Em7

 Quote:
(2) It is also a Major ii-V-I connected to a minor ii-V-i connected by a IV.
So the Major is G yielding the Am7|D7|Gmaj7,
the connector is Cmaj7, which is the IV and
the minor is E yielding F#m7b5|B7b9|Em7

 Quote:
FYI - Minor and Major ii-V-I's are two different things.
I think I know what that means. For example, the C and Am scales share the same notes so a ii-V-I in C would yield Dm|G|C but in Am it would be Bm|E|A, right? (he types with fingers crossed!)

Sorry to repeat what has already been covered. All of this is fascinating but also potentially confusing as there are many ways to describe the same idea.
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/03/08 11:28 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LaValse:
PS: is it just me, or is everybody else posessed/haunted by this tune - I was woken up in the night a few times by strong winds only to find Autumn Leaves playing through my mind, ditto in a meeting at the sailing club tonight... weirdly though there is always a double bass there as well...

I'm hooked...

\:\) [/b]
It's a great song. I've only heard it twice in my life. The first was an awful "easy listening/elevator music" version (while on hold) and the second, Bill Evans' jazz version. Actually make it three because Evans records two versions on the CD I own!
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 12:04 AM

Bluekeys, that's great.

Frog52, that is a interesting version from Yves Montand.

Serge
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 01:19 AM

Great job Bluekeys! Sounded pretty good to me. Nice work.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 01:37 AM

Ok there's a lot of questions here so one at a time.

First of all Bluekeys, you are really getting it on the RH. That sounds great and actually has an original kind of sound to it. So leave the RH alone. That's pretty solid. Now on the LH, the rhythm has to be more solid.

Let me explain that in jazz, the LH is the rhythm section. So whatever pattern you play on the LH must really suggest the beat. This is pretty hard for a beginner so that's why I suggest use long half notes (i.e. played to full value) on the LH first so that the swing can be suggested by the RH. The RH and LH must be completely independent rhythmically. I would try that same version with a half notes and see if the swing is still suggested by the RH.

This is a very solid performance Bluekeys. You've got some jazz in you for sure
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 01:39 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor:
I learn this track the other day from an old instructional video of Talc Tolchin.

I play it with the root and 7th in the left hand and the right hand doing the melody and adding the rest of the chord notes(sometime adding octave of the 7th or the root as well), it's easy to learn and sounds nice.

Was my first jazz piece so to speak, i'm reading a mark levine book as we speak and getting more into jazz, it's pretty fun to just improvise over some basic II-V-I progressions. [/b]
Emperor, welcome to our thread and hope you participate. Time to do solos then if you already know the tune.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 01:48 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LaValse:
I'd like to mention it because unlike any other books I have (including Levine) it starts, like jazzwee has, on rhythm and spends significant time on straight/swung 8ths etc with lots of clapping-type exercises. You don't play a single note of melody in chapter 1 and only a few in chapter 2.
\:\) [/b]
LaValse, I'd like to comment on your statement.

Please don't take my 'lessons as gold. I realize that various teachers have different approaches to teaching jazz. I'm passing along some real lessons that I've had over the years. Others may have different experiences with their teachers but I've had good results with mine.

Now just a little historical reference, one of my teachers spent a full year on just blues riffs and LH chords. The idea of playing cliche blues riffs was to get the swing feel and some vocabulary. What we're doing here is skipping the vocabulary (memorizing cliche riffs), and instead just focusing on the swing feel.

This is developed at the same time as a steady LH with a steady beat (non-swing) playing chords, or even walking bass patterns.

Hopefully, whatever you learn here, you keep practicing for a year or two while we keep piling on new stuff. Then later, you will be surprised at some really solid jazz playing resulting from this.

If you read this stuff closely and also watch the videos, you will go through a lot of discoveries. Please feel free to ask what someone is doing since you can always specify the video and say what's Tristano doing at 15 seconds (actually go to the Tristano video and watch what he does at 15 seconds, he changes style for a moment).
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 02:07 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by stegerson:
 Quote:
FYI - Minor and Major ii-V-I's are two different things.
I think I know what that means. For example, the C and Am scales share the same notes so a ii-V-I in C would yield Dm|G|C but in Am it would be Bm|E|A, right? (he types with fingers crossed!)

[/b]
Hi Stegerson, first let's clear up some terms.

As you know in music theory, any Major Key has a relative Minor key and both use the same scale. The minor key is in the 6th degree of the Major scale.

So in C, the relative minor is Am.
In G the relative minor is Em.

Expressed as a progression in the major scale, the sequence would be vii-iii-vi. Their intervals are exactly the same as ii-V-I. Fourths apart.

Remember the vii degree is a half diminished (minor 7 b5), and the iii is a minor. Except the iii chord (Bm7) doesn't create a dominant tonic relationship so the Bm7 is converted to B7 in Autumn Leaves.

Note that in the key of G, Em, there's no Db in the key (the 9th of B). So you play a B with a C (a half step away). That gives us the B7b9. Flat 9 is a half step interval. You can still play the b3 or really in this case it would be called #9 (which is D). So using the same scale you now have B7b9#9 which is pretty much the same as Bm7 except we focus on the b9 more. This kind of dominant is called an Altered dominant and is standard in a minor ii-V-i.

So in the end, a minor ii-V-i in Em is
F#m7b5 (Half Diminished) B7b9 (Altered Dominant) Em7 (Minor Seventh).

In Autumn Leaves, we can emphasize the presence of the minor ii-V-I vs. the major ii-V-I because the original composer, by calling it a B7 instead of Bm7, is telling us an intent. This has a big effect because in jazz, the scale played on each chord will be different once you get to a minor ii-V-i. These allow you to add color in note selection. In other words, it will justify us to use notes that are NOT in the 'G' scale.

In fact, the composer already uses this principle because the melody notes on the B7 use the Db and the Eb which are not in the G scale. How did the composer justify this? These notes are valid notes for altered dominant (B7b9)!

Let me stop here so you can proceed from this point or rehash anything unclear from what I said.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 02:36 AM

CHARLESTON RHYTHM[/b]

 Quote:
Originally posted by frog52:
Jazzwee,

Awesome study group. I would like to join.

I have a question and a comment:

Question[/b]
  • I know you are trying to make us go back to a simpler LH, but please, pretty please, describe your LH syncopation in your first "swinged" version.
  • Was the LH coming in always on counts 1[/b] and 2&[/b]? Or were you sometimes doing 1&[/b] and 3[/b]?
  • My piano teacher (classical) said something about syncopating the LH every 1.5 beats (in 4/4), and it would be jazzy.


Voila,
Rod. [/b]
Rod/Frog52, Welcome to the study group.

That's a tough question you asked because to be honest I don't know exactly what I was doing so I had to go back to the piano and start counting it out.

There were multiple things going on in my totally 'amateurish' version.

First of all, realize that I was solidly counting. You could probably hear my foot tapping. So I was intent on landing the melody on fixed points in the measure.

Second, as a stylistic thing, advanced comping on the LH (which I have not yet mastered), is typically done by putting the LH chords in empty areas, i.e. at times when there's no melody. This makes the melody stick out. My first LH 'stabbing' was done at '1+'. 'Leaves' was sung on beat 1 so it was half a beat later. Then I believed I stabbed again at 1.5 beats to land at beat 3, which was perfect for the pickup to the next line which started at 3+. So my intent was to stab where I had no melody.

By instinct I landed on 3+ which has an anticipatory effect and does sounds more swinging.

There's a reason for the 1.5 beats that I instinctively did. It's because the Charleston Rhythm, which is the source of the Jazz swing beat is based on
'Dotted Quarter Note + Eight Note'
or 1.5 beats + .5 beat.

In the old days, pre 1940's, jazz was played with this Rhythm on beat 1 so it will be on:
<1>+ 2<+> 3+ 4+ | <1>+ 2<+> 3+ 4+ |
Chord played on <>

If you have mastered the half notes on the LH, this is the next progression. To play the Charleston Rhythm. Again the chords briefly and lightly stabbed for better swing.

You could clap with your hands while you count loudly to get used to the rhythm.

My teacher made me constantly play a Charleston Rhythm on the LH. This will be the basis of more advanced LH comping later on.

I say my LH hasn't fully mastered comping because I wanted to stab extremely briefly (like staccato) and exactly on the correct beat. I felt like I was slightly off in time and this is because of an underdeveloped LH. So it's something I need to work on.

I have to say that I'm not that good on a Charleston Rhythm precisely because I don't have as good a technique on my LH compared to my right so I didn't want to record a version that was not perfectly correct in rhythm. Maybe Bluekeys can honor us with a MIDI version that's more accurate.
Posted by: rintincop

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 02:51 AM

Jazzwee played his left hand chords stabs on the swung beats in the brackets:

1 <+> 2 + <3> + 4 <+>

In words, he played on the "+ of 1" on "3" and on the "+ of 4"

Note:
Musicians say the "+ of 1", not the "1 +"
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 03:24 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rintincop:
Jazzwee played his left hand chords stabs on the swung beats in the brackets:

1 <+> 2 + <3> + 4 <+>

In words, he played on the "+ of 1" on "3" and on the "+ of 4"

Note:
Musicians say the "+ of 1", not the "1 +" [/b]
Yes, ritincop that's apparently what I did.

Thinking back as to why it's half a beat off from the Charleston, I think I was playing the melody intentionally ahead by half a beat. So it was the melody that was different. I picked this up from Jazz pianist Kenny Werner and just did it automatically.

I could have played it without being ahead of the beat. That recording was a single live pass so I didn't even think of how I was doing it. So I applied an advanced concept and didn't even know it \:D
Posted by: The Emperor

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 04:04 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
 Quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor:
I learn this track the other day from an old instructional video of Talc Tolchin.

I play it with the root and 7th in the left hand and the right hand doing the melody and adding the rest of the chord notes(sometime adding octave of the 7th or the root as well), it's easy to learn and sounds nice.

Was my first jazz piece so to speak, i'm reading a mark levine book as we speak and getting more into jazz, it's pretty fun to just improvise over some basic II-V-I progressions. [/b]
Emperor, welcome to our thread and hope you participate. Time to do solos then if you already know the tune. [/b]
Yeh i'm really getting into soloing this days, feels great, i will definetly try that ;\)
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 07:39 AM

Bluekeys, for someone supposedly 6 pages behind the curve, that sounds pretty good to me!

Jazzwee, I too am having problems with the RH swing. I can detect the sound from the masters in the vid clips, but actually putting it into practice on the keyboard is my difficulty. Have I correctly understood, the swing sound, we are all after, is created by accenting eighth notes on the offbeat (ie the plus of the beat helpfully explained by Rintincop)?

This is my amateurish attempt to create a midi comparison (not with the keyboard), using an up & down G scale. The first theoretically represents a heavier swing, the second 1:1 & the third, no swing. Do these sounds convey the differences, or is it 'barking up the wrong tree'?

http://www.box.net/shared/jkmt7x6gw4

Or, do you have any tips or practice routines for emulating the correct swing sound. When playing a scale from beat 1 & trying to accent the eighth note on the plus of each beat, I tend to lengthen the accented note. Should I start by playing the scale from 1+, instead of 1 for instance?

Sorry for the long message, but it would help, if I, & perhaps others, are put on the right track.

David
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 09:52 AM

Thanks for the comments folks. Always nice to hear you're well swung. ;\)

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:

he Charleston Rhythm, which is the source of the Jazz swing beat is based on
'Dotted Quarter Note + Eight Note'
or 1.5 beats + .5 beat.

...

In the old days, pre 1940's, jazz was played with this Rhythm on beat 1 so it will be on:
<1>+ 2<+> 3+ 4+ | <1>+ 2<+> 3+ 4+ |
Chord played on <>

...

Maybe Bluekeys can honor us with a MIDI version that's more accurate. [/b]
What I'll do is encode my RH into a clean MIDI and add an LH track that attempts to do the Charleston Rhythm as you describe above. I'll do all that on the computer.

Meanwhile, on the piano, I'll work on just doing the straight LH half notes against the RH swing first, then maybe try the Charleston.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 12:14 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Kangamangusuk:

Jazzwee, I too am having problems with the RH swing. I can detect the sound from the masters in the vid clips, but actually putting it into practice on the keyboard is my difficulty. Have I correctly understood, the swing sound, we are all after, is created by accenting eighth notes on the offbeat (ie the plus of the beat helpfully explained by Rintincop)?

This is my amateurish attempt to create a midi comparison (not with the keyboard), using an up & down G scale. The first theoretically represents a heavier swing, the second 1:1 & the third, no swing. Do these sounds convey the differences, or is it 'barking up the wrong tree'?

http://www.box.net/shared/jkmt7x6gw4

Or, do you have any tips or practice routines for emulating the correct swing sound. When playing a scale from beat 1 & trying to accent the eighth note on the plus of each beat, I tend to lengthen the accented note. Should I start by playing the scale from 1+, instead of 1 for instance?

Sorry for the long message, but it would help, if I, & perhaps others, are put on the right track.

David [/b]
David, what you successfully accomplished is a 'hard' swinging. Look back at the comparisons of swing styles. This would be closer to Wynton Kelly, or if you did this very fast, it would sound like Bill Evans. Straight swinging would have quite a bit more longer accented note as in the 15 seconds of the Tristano Video Tangerine. Try that next. It means you have to lean on the accented note longer. This is the more modern swing style.

What's interesting is your perception. You think that you're lengthening the accented note but to my ears it's not lengthened much. Tap it without an accent using the same beat to see. Your second note is shorter.

Choose whichever you prefer. You're doing great!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 12:21 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:
What I'll do is encode my RH into a clean MIDI and add an LH track that attempts to do the Charleston Rhythm as you describe above. I'll do all that on the computer.
[/b]
Bluekeys, when you attempt duplicate the Charleston on MIDI, experiment with how long the notes of the chord is played at those beats. Try it really short (maybe a 16th note) and try it with an eight note. We'll see which sounds better. In modern comping, I tend to see more short staccato notes. But I think in the old days it was of longer value.
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 02:08 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
As you know in music theory, any Major Key has a relative Minor key and both use the same scale. The minor key is in the 6th degree of the Major scale.

So in C, the relative minor is Am.
In G the relative minor is Em.[/b]

Yes, indicated on the circle chart.

Expressed as a progression in the major scale, the sequence would be vii-iii-vi. Their intervals are exactly the same as ii-V-I. Fourths apart.[/b]

More "shifting", still with you.

Remember the vii degree is a half diminished (minor 7 b5), and the iii is a minor. Except the iii chord (Bm7) doesn't create a dominant tonic relationship so the Bm7 is converted to B7 in Autumn Leaves.[/b]

Funny, I was going to ask in the last post why this wouldn't be a Bm7.

Note that in the key of G, Em, there's no Db in the key (the 9th of B). So you play a B with a C (a half step away). That gives us the B7b9. Flat 9 is a half step interval. You can still play the b3 or really in this case it would be called #9 (which is D). So using the same scale you now have B7b9#9 which is pretty much the same as Bm7 except we focus on the b9 more. This kind of dominant is called an Altered dominant and is standard in a minor ii-V-i.[/b]

A bit fuzzy here. Why wouldn't a B9 chord work here? I'm unclear as to why C is brought into this.

So in the end, a minor ii-V-i in Em is
F#m7b5 (Half Diminished) B7b9 (Altered Dominant) Em7 (Minor Seventh).[/b]

All good except the altered dominant concept but that's o.k. for now.

In Autumn Leaves, we can emphasize the presence of the minor ii-V-I vs. the major ii-V-I because the original composer, by calling it a B7 instead of Bm7, is telling us an intent. This has a big effect because in jazz, the scale played on each chord will be different once you get to a minor ii-V-i. These allow you to add color in note selection. In other words, it will justify us to use notes that are NOT in the 'G' scale.

In fact, the composer already uses this principle because the melody notes on the B7 use the Db and the Eb which are not in the G scale. How did the composer justify this? These notes are valid notes for altered dominant (B7b9)![/b]

So from the melody, the Eb is the third of B which works because the minor was removed. The Db and its relation to the B7b9 chord still elluds me!

I hope I didn't jump things too far ahead. I'm going to try and pick up this thread closer to the current topic.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 02:26 PM

Stegerson, let's stick to that B7b9 for a moment.

Remember the G Scale is G A B C D E F# G.

A 'B minor 7' is in this scale (3rd degree of G)

B D F# A

Normally, the scale to be played over Bm7 is just the G scale notes as displayed above. There's a rule in jazz that if your chord is a dominant, you can then play notes outside of the scale. By playing the notes

B C Eb D F# A (which are all in the scale, except for the added Eb), the chord becomes a dominant which now has the following alterations.

C is b9 of the B7 chord, D is #9 of the chord. A dominant with a b9 and #9 is called an Altered Dominant. Lots of flexibility to play consonant tones over an altered dominant since practically every note of the scale is consonant with it (but not Bb). Over an altered dominant you can play an Altered Scale or the original G scale (and other variations in between). This allows the composer to put a melody that's outside of the G scale and opens it wide to multiple scale choices in improvisation.

The composer could have stuck the melody inside the scale (no Db Eb) and this tune wouldn't have the same impact.

Elssa's post (way back there somewhere) with a link, discusses this ingenious manuever of turning the Bm7 into B7 and changed the color of the tune completely.

So although for a beginning solo we say we will use the G scale, we are also going to add that Eb when playing B7 and other additional options when we get to the solo discussion.

We've only hit maybe 2% of Autumn Leaves if you can believe it.
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 03:00 PM

Jazzwee

Apologies for not explaining myself very well in my last post. The midi file was not created from my playing. It was concocted from a computer keyboard in "Cakewalk". I was trying to represent roughly the sounds of swinging the eighths (basically accenting the relevant offbeat notes), but was not sure, if I correctly understood, exactly what was happening & was represented it properly.

From your remarks, the sound of the first two up & down scale runs seem to swing, so I now hope to emulate, that on the piano. Your reply helpfully gives me a starting point.

David
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 03:11 PM

David, sorry I misinterpreted. Just for reference, in real life, playing swing will not be evenly divided as we cannot do it like a machine. But this is truly a helpful exercise to at least understand the pattern.

So try making the eights equal value then put more MIDI volume on the accent and then we'll see what it sounds like. This is kind of neat!
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 04:21 PM

I think this idea of using MIDI as a tool is a great one. I wonder how else we could use it? For instance, take a MIDI of someone's performance. Can we look at it and say see, right there, you're playing those offbeats too early/late/soft/loud. Or, look, here's a prime example of someone playing with good swing style. Those offbeats are accented and timed just about perfectly.

I don't know too much about MIDI having just acquired my first keyboard. But I imagine once you take a MIDI performance into a nice sequencing program on a PC/Mac, it's gotta be pretty easy to look at the data this way.

I'm going to try and record myself swinging (or not) a scale before I try to make the leap all the way to Autumn Leaves.
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 05:56 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:


Elssa's post (way back there somewhere) with a link, discusses this ingenious manuever of turning the Bm7 into B7 and changed the color of the tune completely.[/b]

I missed this link earlier but now that I've viewed it, much more of this makes sense!

We've only hit maybe 2% of Autumn Leaves if you can believe it. [/b]

Oh I believe it!

Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 06:10 PM

Jazzwee,

Here is my second computer created midi file, which is based on equal length eighths(with triplet feel?).

http://www.box.net/shared/lbqibj6oks

The first 3 measures are an up & down run of the scale with LH shells lasting 4 beats each.

The next 3 measures are a duplication of the first 3, simply to lengthen the example further.

Measures 7 to 9 represents the same scale RH, but now over my attempt at the Charleston rythm.

Finally measures 10 to 12 are a repeat of 7 to 9.

I have left the difference between the downbeats (unaccented) & offbeats (accented) as before. The ratio is 35 (downbeats) & 100 (offbeats), where 127 = the maximum accent/ loudness & zero = minimum.

Tempo increased to 120

Deeluk, I agree with you about midi being useful in our learning adventure, but it is important, that we do not become over reliant upon it, but learn to play as naturally as possible.

David
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/04/08 06:26 PM

David, can you experiment with a few different factors? First can you speed it up a little so we can see what that sounds like? (maybe 150bpm).

Second, can you try it without triplet feel? Straight eight notes. So no dotted eight + sixteenth. Eight + eight only. Keep the accents. It sounds about right.

Also is there a way to distribute the time of the Eights to some intermediate level between triplet feel and even eights?

On the Charleston Rhythm, could you try shortening LH chords to eight notes and 16 notes for comparison?

Then we'll have several versions to listen to that will give a lot of info for comparison.

This is very interesting. A machine can't lie so we can at least give it a good analysis.

I think we're going to learn a lot from this.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 08:56 AM

First post. Read through all the pages. Wow! This is so wicked!
Jazzwe, you have done SUCH a service with this thread. Never have I seen such a devoted bunch of ticklers.

I will definitely put my 2 öres worth in here too.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 10:09 AM

so let me jump here and write a little about swinging. hmmm such a subject . . . is difficult to write about, needs to be heard.
also, different ages (30-s, 40.s, 50.s, etc) all swung differently.
basically it's about anticipation (that's playing a little before the beat) and hanging (ehh hanging behind the beat). it's playing in the cracks and it's about triplets. yeah well sixteen's are in there also . . . sorry if i'm confusing you all . . . i usually teach this verbally and not in writing.
practicing scales in triplets (eight note triplets, then: swung triplets: triplet quarter note + triplet eighth) with a metronome marking 2 and 4 is essential (but ohh so tricky).
An exercise i do (and teach) is the 2-and.
It's a left hand comping drill. Bpm=80-120. Play any "jazz" chord on 1 and 2-and. The 2-and is the last triplet eight.

Give it a II-V motion:
and following AL's sequence:


Apologies if i'm butting in, but the thread just inspired me too.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 10:22 AM

If any of you want to read more about swing. Here's an Excellent article
(a .pdf-format file)
Not to forget: wikipedia\'s definition of swing with some more excellent articles - at the end
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 01:13 PM

Help!!! I thought that I was doing pretty well playing a straight 1/7 LH and swinging the melody. Until I recorded it and listened. It sounds sooo forced... like i couldn't find the right key for the delayed pickup note on "the" until it was almost too late. Then, the "ing" sounds horribly isolated. I'm sure that there is something deperately the matter with the note on "fall", but sandwiched between the other two clunkers, one can hardly notice.

Does anybody remember the commercial for "Nut 'n Honey" cereal? A woman that reminds you of the "church lady" on Sat Night Live is torturing her ivories in the parlor, and when hubby asked what she is playing, her reply is "Nut'n, honey"? I sound like the church lady!!! I better go sit on my hands and watch TV for a while! I hope that everybody else is having a more productive Saturday morning than me!
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 01:51 PM

http://www.box.net/shared/1fg4enxk48

I did a lead sheet of Autumn leaves if anyone need it. Let me know of any mistake.


Serge
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 05:18 PM

I've been practicing swing feel for about an hour here without much luck. Just using scales. I created a computer generated track of the G scale and then edited it up so that the accents were on the offbeats and used "Play FX" to give the timing a swing feel. I then used that as a reference for what I was trying to achieve.

I never really got there. I can sort of accent the upbeats, but my timing is usually off. I seem to have this really strong innate tendency to accent the downbeats. I'd start the first half of the scale pretty well, but then on the way down, I'd revert back to accenting the downbeats. Looking at recordings of myself (the data) the accents are pretty good sometimes up and down, but my timing drifts. If I turn on a metronome, I almost always revert back to accenting the downbeats.

I have been practicing a straight half note LH of Autumn Leaves along with a swing-feel RH. That seems to be going better than my practice. It's going to be a tough uphill battle for me I guess.
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 05:45 PM

Here's a new clean, computer-created midi that starts to bring in some swing elements. The bass hits eights on 1 and the + of 2 (don't I sound hip with the lingo?) and the melody does a little anticipation and hanging. It's still very mechanical, though. All notes are at the same volume and there's no variation in note lengths. Also the smallest note or rest used is an eighth.

Here's the straight midi:

http://www.box.net/shared/vg24meqgw8

And here it is rendered as an MP3 through a pretty decent piano VST with a teeny bit of reverb.

http://www.box.net/shared/s2getxxooc

I have to concentrate on a classical piece for a few days (so I don't thoroughly humiliate myself at my next lesson) but anyone who's into MIDI is welcome to jazz it up some more or try some new bass patterns.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 05:57 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by chrisbell:
so let me jump here and write a little about swinging....[/b]
Welcom Chrisbell! What would be nice is if you recorded this LH comping so that everyone gets a feel. Looking forward to more input.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 05:58 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Serge88:
http://www.box.net/shared/1fg4enxk48

I did a lead sheet of Autumn leaves if anyone need it. Let me know of any mistake.


Serge [/b]
Looks good to me Serge. Thanks.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 06:02 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
I've been practicing swing feel for about an hour here without much luck. Just using scales. I created a computer generated track of the G scale and then edited it up so that the accents were on the offbeats and used "Play FX" to give the timing a swing feel. I then used that as a reference for what I was trying to achieve.

I never really got there. I can sort of accent the upbeats, but my timing is usually off. I seem to have this really strong innate tendency to accent the downbeats. I'd start the first half of the scale pretty well, but then on the way down, I'd revert back to accenting the downbeats. Looking at recordings of myself (the data) the accents are pretty good sometimes up and down, but my timing drifts. If I turn on a metronome, I almost always revert back to accenting the downbeats.

I have been practicing a straight half note LH of Autumn Leaves along with a swing-feel RH. That seems to be going better than my practice. It's going to be a tough uphill battle for me I guess. [/b]
Deeluk, I think I intended this to me a long term project. There's a technique and quite a bit of control involved so let it simmer. I would practice it for short phrases instead of the whole scale continuously. The breaks will allow you to recover on the downbeat. You need to feel that offbeat in your bones and you'll naturally know where to lean that accent. So be patient. Breaking a line into short phrases is the typical way jazz lines are played anyway.

Just keep doing this and we'll move into further topics.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 06:16 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:
Here's a new clean, computer-created midi that starts to bring in some swing elements. The bass hits eights on 1 and the + of 2 (don't I sound hip with the lingo?) and the melody does a little anticipation and hanging. It's still very mechanical, though. All notes are at the same volume and there's no variation in note lengths. Also the smallest note or rest used is an eighth.

Here's the straight midi:

http://www.box.net/shared/vg24meqgw8

And here it is rendered as an MP3 through a pretty decent piano VST with a teeny bit of reverb.

http://www.box.net/shared/s2getxxooc

I have to concentrate on a classical piece for a few days (so I don't thoroughly humiliate myself at my next lesson) but anyone who's into MIDI is welcome to jazz it up some more or try some new bass patterns. [/b]
Hey Bluekeys. That really doesn't feel right. Partly the first 3 notes of each melody are played as all 8 notes and if you do that then it's missing an accent on the second note.

This shows where the human feel is so important. You could try the frst 3 notes as quarter note, but played short (i.e. like a 32th rest in between or something).

Charleston on the LH is supposed to feel relaxed but the hurried feel of the melody seemed to be a mismatch.

BTW - the MIDI teaches us something. In real playing, you don't have to play every beat on the LH. When I play, I skip LH comping when the melody is going, or introduce only comping at quiet moments. This has a good balancing effect. It's noticeable on a MIDI because the machine makes a relentless LH beat that sometimes doesn't belong. If you listen to masters comp on the LH, they vary the size of the notes all the time and it always sounds like it supports the RH, not just provide a fixed rhythm. Hard to do on a machine but in many ways, it teaches us why we play piano and not a machine.

Thanks for sharing that bluekeys. You're excused from practice \:D while you do your classical. But you still have to read our thread ;\)
Posted by: Steve W

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 07:12 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Serge88:
http://www.box.net/shared/1fg4enxk48

I did a lead sheet of Autumn leaves if anyone need it. Let me know of any mistake.


Serge [/b]
Very nice job, Serge! Looks very professional.
What program did you use to do this?
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 07:38 PM

 Quote:
jazzwee said:

This shows where the human feel is so important.
[/b]
One of the things I discovered by doing this exercise is that it's very difficult to generate excitement or spontaneity when you're sitting at a computer typing in notes. There are, of course, skilled midi coders who can create beautiful music with the technology available today, and anything that can be played on a digital piano can theoretically be reproduced in midi, but it's never as authentic as playing it yourself.

Even though the result was less than stellar, this was a very valuable experience. I learned a ton about midi, and by coding it, I learned the song much more thoroughly than I would have just playing it. The time spent coding was at least as valuable as practice time.
Posted by: Jeff Bauer

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 08:03 PM

Great topic Jazzwee. I have been following it with interest.

Would anyone here benefit from a downloadable MP3 of a back track without the piano part to play along with? I created a latin style version with acoustic guitar, percussion, and bass - it's a MIDI file, however I can convert it to MP3 with ease. It's arranged a little different, but nothing too difficult.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 08:45 PM

Can we please review the E Minor Melodic and Harmonic scales as they relate to Autumn Leaves? Thanks! \:\)

http://www.drpsychotic.com/strike_a_chord/e_m_minor_scale.html


AU 2 - E Harmonic[/b] minor Scale-tone Chords

"Now let us look at G major's related minor, E minor. Below you see the scale-tone chord progression for the E harmonic[/b] minor scale".

http://esvc001419.wic024u.server-web.com/articles/aut.htm

Harmonic[/b] minor scale: The same as the natural minor but with a chromatically raised seventh degree.

Would that raised seventh degree of the E minor harmonic scale be the D#/Eb note used in the B7 chord?
Posted by: gabytu

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 10:31 PM

Serge 88. Thanks for the lead sheet of Autumn Leaves. I was just getting ready to ask if anyone could tell me where I could get a copy, and lo and behold, you had already written one out for us. Thanks again. Gaby Tu
Posted by: gabytu

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 10:45 PM

Jazz wee, Here is one of my stupid questions.
In going over your explanation of the chords, I am a bit puzzled about how to spell the F#m7b5, which you describe as half diminished.
I have been playing F# A C Eb---which is a full diminished 7th.

I only had traditional classical theory--not jazz theory, and I do notice that some of the chords are notated differently, so excuse my ignorance.

My question is: Am I spelling (and playing) the chord correctly? I am brand new at playing anything other than classical, and am having a great time leaning something new. Gaby tu
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 10:48 PM

I used Noteworthy composer.

http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/

I also have a midi file with piano and accompaniements, I muted the piano and play with it, it's really fun. I will upload the file later.

Now I need to practice the swing feel.

Serge
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 11:24 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Bauer:
Great topic Jazzwee. I have been following it with interest.

Would anyone here benefit from a downloadable MP3 of a back track without the piano part to play along with? I created a latin style version with acoustic guitar, percussion, and bass - it's a MIDI file, however I can convert it to MP3 with ease. It's arranged a little different, but nothing too difficult. [/b]
Jeff, I wondered when you would show up. That's a great idea. Please post it. I was going to eventually load a Band In the Box version of this as a play along but I have to reinstall BIAB and don't have much time. I may do it later.

By the way, guys, Jeff and I shared a couple of the same teachers. such a small world...

Please hang out with us Jeff.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 11:27 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gabytu:
Jazz wee, Here is one of my stupid questions.
In going over your explanation of the chords, I am a bit puzzled about how to spell the F#m7b5, which you describe as half diminished.
I have been playing F# A C Eb---which is a full diminished 7th.

I only had traditional classical theory--not jazz theory, and I do notice that some of the chords are notated differently, so excuse my ignorance.

My question is: Am I spelling (and playing) the chord correctly? I am brand new at playing anything other than classical, and am having a great time leaning something new. Gaby tu [/b]
Hi Gaby Tu, the spellling of F#m7b5 is
F# A C E, not Eb. This is half diminished not fully diminished. I'm going to spend a lot of time on chord spelling momentarily in order to introduce voicings so I will explain this in more detail.
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 11:38 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Bauer:

Would anyone here benefit from a downloadable MP3 of a back track without the piano part to play along with? I created a latin style version with acoustic guitar, percussion, and bass - it's a MIDI file, however I can convert it to MP3 with ease. It's arranged a little different, but nothing too difficult. [/b]
Yes, Mp3 and midi file. With midi file I can slow it down.

Serge
Posted by: Van

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 11:44 PM

jazzwee, anyway you can record a midi of this piece to demonstrate the rhythm accenting that you talked about? I'd be useful to be able to see your actual fingering.

For people without something better, you can see the piano fingering when playing the midi with something like the free Vanbasco's Karaoke Player.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 11:52 PM

ADVANCED TOPIC - IGNORE[/b]

 Quote:
Originally posted by Elssa:
Can we please review the E Minor Melodic and Harmonic scales as they relate to Autumn Leaves? Thanks! \:\)

http://www.drpsychotic.com/strike_a_chord/e_m_minor_scale.html


AU 2 - E Harmonic[/b] minor Scale-tone Chords

"Now let us look at G major's related minor, E minor. Below you see the scale-tone chord progression for the E harmonic[/b] minor scale".

http://esvc001419.wic024u.server-web.com/articles/aut.htm

Harmonic[/b] minor scale: The same as the natural minor but with a chromatically raised seventh degree. [/b]
Hi Elssa, I'll give a brief explanation here but this is advanced so I'll have to repeat it later on in advanced soloing.

We don't use the E Melodic Minor per se in Autumn Leaves. We CAN use the VI mode of the Melodic Minor, I believe called "Locrian #2" and this can used against half diminished chord. But there other scales than be used on this chord called "Diminished Whole Tone" or ALT scale (VII mode of the Melodic Minor).

The Em7 uses just a plain Minor Scale (same as G Major Scale).

B7b9 could use a half-whole diminished scale, an ALT scale (VII Mode of Melodic Minor), a plain Mixolydian mode of G, a Whole Tone scale.

So as you can see Melodic and Harmonic minor scales in E don't necessarily fit in Autumn Leaves. These scales use a Maj7 interval which is used in Major/Minor Chords and doesn't exist in this tune. But their modes are very interesting because it is from the Melodic minor modes that many of the sounds in jazz come from.

If you have something more specific to ask, I will try to answer it.

BTW - A tune that comes to mind with Minor/Major chords is My Funny Valentine. Perfect use of a harmonic minor.

In your link I noticed that they managed to use the harmonic minor by substituting the chords in Autumn Leaves. So for our base chords here it wouldn't work.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/05/08 11:57 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Van:
jazzwee, anyway you can record a midi of this piece to demonstrate the rhythm accenting that you talked about? I'd be useful to be able to see your actual fingering.

For people without something better, you can see the piano fingering when playing the midi with something like the free Vanbasco's Karaoke Player. [/b]
Van, I sold my keyboards recently and I haven't purchased a new one yet so I have no MIDI instrument. I'm stuck with MP3 at the moment.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 12:09 AM

"Harmonic minor scale: The same as the natural minor but with a chromatically raised seventh degree".

Would that raised seventh degree of the E minor harmonic scale be the D# note used in the B7 chord?
Posted by: gabytu

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 12:49 AM

Thanks for the clarification on the spelling of the F# 1/2 dim. 7th. Also thanks for giving the link to the Jazclass detailed analysis of the chords, progressions etc. I am so excited about this. After only playing classical music, note for note as it is written, this is a whole new experience for me. Currently I am trying to learn to pick out melodies by ear. Slow going, but bit by bit, it is getting easier. Gaby Tu
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 01:21 AM

ADVANCED TOPIC - IGNORE[/b]

 Quote:
Originally posted by Elssa:
"Harmonic minor scale: The same as the natural minor but with a chromatically raised seventh degree".

Would that raised seventh degree of the E minor harmonic scale be the D# note used in the B7 chord? [/b]
No actually, not directly IMO because it doesn't explain why there's a C# in the same melody. C# doesn't belong in the Harmonic minor scale. It does show up in the Melodic Minor scale, but that scale excludes the C which is the b9 of B, a critical note.

The scales that I described above would be the ones used on the F#m7b5-B7b9-Em7 progression. Use of any other scale would require reharmonization of the chords.

In jazz, it is important to understand the modes of the melodic minor (ascending) which has many more uses than the melodic minor by itself.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 01:25 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gabytu:
Thanks for the clarification on the spelling of the F# 1/2 dim. 7th. Also thanks for giving the link to the Jazclass detailed analysis of the chords, progressions etc. I am so excited about this. After only playing classical music, note for note as it is written, this is a whole new experience for me. Currently I am trying to learn to pick out melodies by ear. Slow going, but bit by bit, it is getting easier. Gaby Tu [/b]
I'm glad you're enjoying this Gaby Tu. We are at such an early phase here. We are barely making a dent at understanding everything we can understand from this one tune. Sometimes I just want to spend hours and hours writing everything up but it would be so confusing so I have to hold it back.

The good news is that I figured this all out in a fairly short time (I think a year's worth of theory self-study) so it's very doable.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 02:00 AM

Here's an excerpt where I do a Charleston rhythm on the LH.

http://www.box.net/shared/od6cr5e4oc

I'm not good at it but it's good practice to learn to create a swinging rhythm on the LH. Note that modern Jazz doesn't use Charleston on the LH. This is an exercise to develop swing feel in comping. I didn't have a metronome on but I would practice this with 2 & 4 on the metronome.

Most modern rhythms are derived from this so once you figure out the concept, you listen to jazz masters play and see what they do to the LH. They will use long notes, short notes, staccato, etc. but there will be an off balance nature to their comping so that it doesn't land in a consistent place like downbeats.

Note that Charleston rhythm is best practiced against a rhythm section or at least a metronome. It was hard to do it by myself without some accurate pulse as my RH was already syncopating.

So please remember that this is mostly an exercise. You will eventually comp with some variation of this (like I did at the beginning).
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 02:14 AM

These scales and modes are pretty confusing to me, but I think I remember hearing somewhere that the Mixolydian is the most commonly used mode. Is that right? Thanks. \:\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 02:44 AM

ADVANCED TOPIC - IGNORE[/b]

 Quote:
Originally posted by Elssa:
These scales and modes are pretty confusing to me, but I think I remember hearing somewhere that the Mixolydian is the most commonly used mode. Is that right? Thanks. \:\) [/b]
If playing just a diatonic scale, you'll have to go through the common modes of Ionian, Dorian, and Mixolydian in a typical ii-V-I. But in modern jazz, Mixolydian is shunned for more exotic scales so I'm going to guess that Dorian is probably the most common.

But you could be correct for non-jazz.

I'll go through some of these later in detail. It isn't completely necessary to understand modes to play any of this. Modes just identify the scale to be used. If you already know the notes of the scale to be used, not knowing what 'mode' it came for is just academic. Do you really think I remember VI or VII mode of the melodic minor at the top of my head? \:D I forgot what they were called so I looked it up.

But I always remember the scale by name like "Diminished Whole Tone" so it doesn't matter that I forgot what mode it came from. Modes can be unecessary complexity IMHO and is fine for academic learning. We could skip discussing modes and not miss a beat.

However discussing "scales" is closely related since scales are derived from modes. We could study closely how one makes flour from wheat but I think we can make bread just starting from the flour and not have to visit the farm.

So at least for this thread, we will be discussing scales. Some of them will have unusual shapes.

Some sample scales we will discuss:

Half-Whole Diminished
Whole-Half Diminished
Diminished Whole Tone (Altered Scale)
Whole Tone

The rest of the common scales are derived from the major scale so it is not necessary to discuss those modes since the notes are the same. There are alternative ways of explaining modes that I personally think are more relevant and this has to do with discussing primary chord (1,3,5,7) tones and extensions (9,11,13 and their alterations). I find these are easier to explain so I was planning on using this explanation later.

So for the moment, just make a note in your head that MODE = Some sort of Scale.

Now for your personal reading, you can read up on this:

I Chords (Maj7) = Ionian Mode
II Chords (min7) = Dorian Mode
V Chords (Dom 7) = Mixolydian Mode

Which in simplified terms just means, "What starting note in the Major scale is used for these chords?". The answer is the same as the scale degree. In the key of C, I = C, II = D, and V= 5. Playing a scale, starting on a different note changes the color of the scale, even though they are the same notes. Of course this is the exact principle of Scale Degrees which we already discussed earlier (notes on the keyboard are not symmetrical due to distribution of black keys).
Posted by: mahlzeit

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 06:12 AM

Wow, this thread is going WAY to fast for me to keep up. There's a lot of different discussions going on all at once. Anyone else feel overwhelmed?

 Quote:
Originally posted by gabytu:
I am a bit puzzled about how to spell the F#m7b5, which you describe as half diminished.[/b]
F#m7b5 is an F#m7 chord with a lowered 5th.

If you know how to construct chords from scale degrees then playing a half-diminished chord is the same as playing a minor-7th chord but with the 5th lowered a half-step.

In root position, you can simply move your LH index finger a half-step down.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 06:22 AM

Thanks for the suggestion, I will post files on examples. Does the group prefer midi and/or audio files?

In playing/performing AL, don't forget, that yes it's played as a swinging upbeat jazzstandard, it was originally written as a ballad - and a french ballad to boot. (hearing Yves Montand humming it is . . sublime)

Now slightly OT, I'm interested in verse. Or rather verses. Which I find sometimes to of more musical interest than the refrain (which is always performed). The AL you are playing is only half of the song; the refrain. The verse - heck nobody (well, nearly nobody) plays that.
What do I mean with this rambling is that . . don't forget the musical context. It's a song. Read the lyrics for inspiration. Try and find it sung in the original language . . . it might make a difference for your interpretation.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 06:50 AM

Another thing, don't forget to listen - a lot - to jazz if you want to play jazz. It's an aural tradition. Get an inner feel for the tune. If you want listening suggestions just ask.
And play-a-long. Play alongside with the masters (put on a cd, mp3, youtube). Even if it's just the melody at first, then maybe play the chords. Not to imitate, but to emulate.
Btw, those of you with a classical background; about AL: think Bach.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 09:35 AM

Ok. Here's some audio examples of the 2-and.

A: midi mp3
B:II-V movement midi mp3
C: AL-sequence midi mp3
D: AL-lite. 2-and + melody midi mp3

All done at 100bpm w a metronome. and a ratty old mother keyboard in an unfamiliar key (for me at least, so it was fun getting to know it in Em)
Posted by: DeepElem

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 10:43 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
Wow, this thread is going WAY to fast for me to keep up. There's a lot of different discussions going on all at once. Anyone else feel overwhelmed?
[/b]
Yeah, there's a lot to keep up with, especially because there are different people at different levels.

I'm not sure what the solution is though. It's almost like we need separate threads for Autumn Leaves Level 1, 2, 3, etc.
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 10:52 AM

I'm only away just over 24 hours & I have so many posts to read & catch up with. That will be my next job!

Back to the subject of trying to learn swing feel, here are my midi link files for those interested. Instead of using my computer & an old version of Cakewalk, I created these on my Clavinova, which clearly shows on its score display, where applicable, that triplets are being timed.

ChrisBell's base line pattern - tempo 120 - http://www.box.net/shared/dbvjlfns4g

Ditto - tempo 150 - http://www.box.net/shared/dplw1qxuso

Jazzwee's Charleston pattern - tempo 120 - http://www.box.net/shared/qacqvjr28o

Ditto - tempo 150 - http://www.box.net/shared/mae7rmu68c

In each file the melody line simply consists of a G scale up & down over 3 measures & then duplicated for another 3 measures for length as follows;

1st 6 measures - even 8ths with triplet feel
2nd 6 measures - eighths ratio 3:2 with same triplet feel
3rd 6 measures - ratio 2:1 with triplet feel
4th 6 measures - even eighths (no triplet feel at all)
5th 6 measures - dotted quaver/ semiquaver (again no triplet feel)

There should be a swing feel to all examples, as the offbeat notes are all accented.

Does this help anyone? I'm not sure.

ChrisBell, welcome. Your contribution is appreciated already. Also a number of other contributors have been busy & I must now catch up on their posts.

What a good study group!

David
Posted by: Steve W

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 10:57 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by DeepElem:
 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
Wow, this thread is going WAY to fast for me to keep up. There's a lot of different discussions going on all at once. Anyone else feel overwhelmed?
[/b]
Yeah, there's a lot to keep up with, especially because there are different people at different levels.

I'm not sure what the solution is though. It's almost like we need separate threads for Autumn Leaves Level 1, 2, 3, etc. [/b]
That seems like a great idea to me!

Does seem that we have several different themes going at the same time and it is getting confusing.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 11:25 AM

I disagree to separate threads. I understand that it's getting confusing. But separating it would create more ehh confusion imho.
Playing jazz IS difficult, it takes study and dedication (a dedication which all of you do show!), and asking a lot of questions. Remember: there are NO stupid or "to simple" questions. By sticking together we will all sort it out together.

Though maybe a header for each different aspect of playing AL. LH-comp, RH-melody, scales/theory, etc. That might make it easier to jump to what interests me at the moment and makes it easier to search.
(in forums like this one I copy (the question and answer) and paste the text into a text app. so that I can collect and print out if needed). I've worked in the field of music for 30 years in many different capacity's and I still learn a lot from beginners and pros alike.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 11:26 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Kangamangusuk:
I'm only away just over 24 hours & I have so many posts to read & catch up with. That will be my next job!

Back to the subject of trying to learn swing feel, here are my midi link files for those interested. Instead of using my computer & an old version of Cakewalk, I created these on my Clavinova, which clearly shows on its score display, where applicable, that triplets are being timed.

ChrisBell's base line pattern - tempo 120 - http://www.box.net/shared/dbvjlfns4g

Ditto - tempo 150 - http://www.box.net/shared/dplw1qxuso

Jazzwee's Charleston pattern - tempo 120 - http://www.box.net/shared/qacqvjr28o

Ditto - tempo 150 - http://www.box.net/shared/mae7rmu68c

In each file the melody line simply consists of a G scale up & down over 3 measures & then duplicated for another 3 measures for length as follows;

1st 6 measures - even 8ths with triplet feel
2nd 6 measures - eighths ratio 3:2 with same triplet feel
3rd 6 measures - ratio 2:1 with triplet feel
4th 6 measures - even eighths (no triplet feel at all)
5th 6 measures - dotted quaver/ semiquaver (again no triplet feel)

There should be a swing feel to all examples, as the offbeat notes are all accented.

David [/b]
This is an excellent demonstration David. Listeners, don't forget to listen all the way through it too observe the various divisions of eight notes from asymmetrical to symmetrical.

My teacher's personal way of playing is close to the even eights that you demonstrate.

In real life playing though, no one can maintain a fixed style so you see a roaming through a range of symmetries with each player having a leaning towards a particular swing style. And that's what gives it life.

These MIDI files makes it clear what we're talking about. All of these have upbeat accents, which is the key consistent factor.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 11:31 AM

I'm trying not to introduce new topics that don't follow our lesson format. I'm just answering what I get asked. But at this point in time, if I answer a theory discussion and I don't put a Lesson title on top, then you can pretty much ignore that for now.

You can stick to lesson items (which I mark in bold at the top).

Please don't feel obligated to read advanced discussions of theory. If it were important, I would label the top.

We could handle general advanced theory discussions on the other jazz thread for separation.

In reality we have been focused on the swing analysis for a few days to make sure that we understood each other here. We talked about LH and RH but we haven't really added much to the lessons.

EDIT: I've gone back to the complex posts and labeled them:
ADVANCED TOPIC - IGNORE[/b]

So when you see this, it's not relevant to the lessons at the moment.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 11:39 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by chrisbell:
Ok. Here's some audio examples of the 2-and.

A: midi mp3
B:II-V movement midi mp3
C: AL-sequence midi mp3
D: AL-lite. 2-and + melody midi mp3

All done at 100bpm w a metronome. and a ratty old mother keyboard in an unfamiliar key (for me at least, so it was fun getting to know it in Em) [/b]
This is excellent Chris! I think this shows pretty well what we're trying to do. Chris' LH is different from my Charleston only on the Long second note. The timing is the same. (and it shows that my version needed a metronome \:D )
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 11:49 AM

Just a side comment from something that just came to my head. This thread is very unusual and is probably more educational than a typical jazz lesson with a teacher. First of all, if you took lessons once a week, you couldn't cover this much micro detail on the material. Plus we have the ability to interact so questions that come up don't have to wait a week to get resolved.

A common problem is to practice something incorrectly for a week or two and come to the lesson realizing that you've got it all wrong. Here you get instant response! Also these discussions exceed hour lessons and there's a lot of detail in them that you can go back and forth.

I don't believe I've ever seen this kind of Jazz discussion EVER on the internet.

What you guys don't even realize is that there are side discussions between me and some pros and that can get interesting too \:D
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 11:55 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve W:
 Quote:
Originally posted by DeepElem:
 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
Wow, this thread is going WAY to fast for me to keep up. There's a lot of different discussions going on all at once. Anyone else feel overwhelmed?
[/b]
Yeah, there's a lot to keep up with, especially because there are different people at different levels.

I'm not sure what the solution is though. It's almost like we need separate threads for Autumn Leaves Level 1, 2, 3, etc. [/b]
That seems like a great idea to me!

Does seem that we have several different themes going at the same time and it is getting confusing. [/b]
I vote that we keep the thread together too. No matter how confusing it gets. I'm obviously at a very early level here, but I think being exposed to the higher level discussions will sink in and help at some point. Having to keep up with 3 separate threads would make things worse IMO.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 12:08 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Bauer:
Great topic Jazzwee. I have been following it with interest.

Would anyone here benefit from a downloadable MP3 of a back track without the piano part to play along with? I created a latin style version with acoustic guitar, percussion, and bass - it's a MIDI file, however I can convert it to MP3 with ease. It's arranged a little different, but nothing too difficult. [/b]
I've been doing this occasionally with my keyboard generating backing drums and bass. That got me to wondering. Is this a good, bad or indifferent practice? I feel like I lean on the backing rhythm when I do this. It feels like my timing markedly improves when I practice this way. Thus I'm not really developing my own internal rhythm. I guess the obvious answer is that I need to do both (solo and with backing/metronome). Just wondering what others' feelings on this are.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 01:57 PM

I love to practice with the Real Book songs ( I also create my own examples) in BIAB (band in a box) I mute all chord instruments, keep drums and bass and play.
I use it like a glorious metronome. (if I'm in geek mode I'll generate a song and then export as midi so that I can import them and use better sounding instruments).

Also for learning tunes, in different keys at different tempi (and different styles/meters).
Posted by: gabytu

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 02:24 PM

Wow, as one who only played or listened to classical music, I am learning so much, thanks to Jazzwee, and the others who have contributed so much to those thread.

Prior to my joining you I thought all non-classical music was the same. Now I have learned that there are so many different styles--swing, real jazz, ballad style, coctail lounge style etc. What an wealth of information you all are sharing.

I have a long way to go before I will be able to even approach what you all are doing. Mostly I am just playing block chords, root position in the left hand, just to learn to play them without having the written notes before me. I am amazed at how dependent I am upon visual cues. Now, I am trying to rely on my ear to tell me what to do.

I am just taking it all one step at a time--else I begin to feel overwhelmed. Unless I am wrong, aside from the more extensive use of seventh chords, and altered chords, jazz follows pretty much the same rules as classical music does with regard to the progressions.

It is getting the rhythm down that for me is the hardest now, as I have not listened to much jazz.

Jazzwee, thanks thanks thanks. You are a wonderful teacher and so very generous and patient with those of us who came to this forum without a clue as to what jazz style is. Gaby Tu
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 02:49 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by chrisbell:
I love to practice with the Real Book songs ( I also create my own examples) in BIAB (band in a box) I mute all chord instruments, keep drums and bass and play.
I use it like a glorious metronome. (if I'm in geek mode I'll generate a song and then export as midi so that I can import them and use better sounding instruments).

Also for learning tunes, in different keys at different tempi (and different styles/meters). [/b]
Yes it is a lot of fun. Much more so than just a metronome. And, if you've never had exposure to playing with a group (like me), it is a reasonable simulation. For me, when I start improvising, I often get lost as far as the form goes. By building a backing "band", this becomes immediately apparent and I think helps train me as to proper form. I'm not really familiar with Band In a Box, but my keyboard has a similar function. It's a snap to generate a song and then mute one or more of the tracks and play along with it. I just wonder what happens when you take that away and start playing solo again. Does it all fall apart? Rhythm-wise specifically.
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 03:26 PM

This is my attempt at a Charleston LH + non-swing quarter note RH exercise. I practiced a lot counting 1+2+3+4+ then stopped and tried to 'feel' the LH.

www.sailwave.com/piano/al3.mp3

Listening to it I realise now that the RH is late when there is no LH...
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 03:49 PM

LaValse, well done! I liked that a lot.

I can see, I need to practice harder, to try & catch up.

David
Posted by: Johan B

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 04:36 PM

Hi guys,

Played tonight Autumn leaves and recorded it as midi-file - MP3 is not available - and I played with the whole intro Is it jazz, classical....? I think it's me. \:D
(You can import the midifile to every Yamaha DP, so you can hear the real sound)

Autumn leaves (midi)

It is fun to play this song. Maybe next weekend I record a mp-3 of it for ABF. Midi is only midi, you know......

Best regards.

Johan B
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 04:56 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LaValse:
This is my attempt at a Charleston LH + non-swing quarter note RH exercise. I practiced a lot counting 1+2+3+4+ then stopped and tried to 'feel' the LH.

www.sailwave.com/piano/al3.mp3 [/b]
You're making some serious headway here LaValse. Now since you are playing this using quarter notes on the melody, let's modify your swing a little bit. Play the quarter notes short, meaning there should be a audible rest between the 3 quarter notes at the beginning of the melody then you follow it with that whole note that has no rest.

So again: Quarter notes are played detached (non-legato). This swings it because typically the rest is a sixteenth, which is the second swing note in an eight pair. I wanted to emphasize this point as most of the swing discussions was on eight notes. This is all we do with quarter notes.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 05:14 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Johan B:
Hi guys,

Played tonight Autumn leaves and recorded it as midi-file - MP3 is not available - and I played with the whole intro Is it jazz, classical....? I think it's me. \:D
(You can import the midifile to every Yamaha DP, so you can hear the real sound)

Autumn leaves (midi)

It is fun to play this song. Maybe next weekend I record a mp-3 of it for ABF. Midi is only midi, you know......

Best regards.

Johan B [/b]
Thanks for sharing Johan. Now read up and participate and we'll turn it into jazz. \:D
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 05:18 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by gabytu:
Jazzwee, thanks thanks thanks. You are a wonderful teacher and so very generous and patient with those of us who came to this forum without a clue as to what jazz style is. Gaby Tu [/b]
Gaby Tu, thanks for the nice comments. Just realize that I'm just a facilitator. I'm just an amateur like everyone else here. I'm learning just as much as the rest of you. In order to explain some of this requires me to clean up my own act and it's very fruitful for me. We'll all grow in this together.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 05:24 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
I've been doing this occasionally with my keyboard generating backing drums and bass. That got me to wondering. Is this a good, bad or indifferent practice? [/b]
Looking back at my own study of Jazz, I did not spend enough time with playing with a rhythm section so this is a weak point for me.

Recently I've refocused on practicing with "Aebersold Play Alongs". It's been very helpful because the players are real and masterful jazz players and in real playing, everything from time, to the way the Bass and Drums play communicate something to the player. For example, the Rhythm section, by the way they play, guides to upcoming changes (like the end of the solo section, or the upcoming bridge, etc.). In a fixed Rhythm provided by a keyboard, you don't feel this and it is still like playing alone.

So it is highly recommended and is part of jazz development. It can be practiced more heavily as you get more advanced though so it isn't necessary for the earliest stages of learning.
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 05:26 PM

Hi jazzwee, thanks for listening. I have been wondering about quarter notes and swing - I will practice them detached... What a nice way to spend a Sunday afternoon... \:\)

Edit: Ah, reading back through the thread - you've mentioned it already - I must have missed it.

David - thanks - it was fun.
Posted by: Steve W

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 05:45 PM

Since the consensus is to not split the current thread into separate lessons -one other thought occurred to me about how this is organized. As jazzwee has said, this is a truly unique teaching circle, thanks to him (her?) --

Since it is so unique and so valuable, what about having 2 parallel threads?

1. One which is moderated by jazzwee, and probably mostly contributed to by jazzwee, that has the lessons

and

2. One which has the discussion about the lessons?

*********************

Right now, we are up to 12 pages of a mixed bag of #1 and #2.

For posterity, for those who look up this thread later - wouldn't it make sense to have a concise place to go with the lessons, and then if one wants to learn more about the whys and wherefores, a separate thread which is indexed (referenced) to the "lesson" thread?

Just a thought. Won't hurt my feelings no matter what you decide to do, and will continue to follow with interest (and hope for my future jazz-playing ability).
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/06/08 06:17 PM

Steve W, it might be hard to make references in discussions (like quoting). Also, one of the threads might fall off the list if one thread is busier. Also, we won't be successful at stopping anyone from posting anywhere. So we'll have two mismatching threads.

I just recommend that people print out or save the actual lessons.

As we go along here we'll do a better job at indexing on the first page. That'll handle the issues of being confusing IMHO.

The Chopin Thread is like 3100+ posts. We're a baby thread in comparison. Although I realize that many our posts are rather deep so it takes some frequent re-reading \:D
Posted by: Seaside_Lee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/07/08 05:56 AM

OMG!!!

I'm away for a couple of weeks and we are on page 12 already!!!

Blimey, I've got a lot to catch up on here!! \:D


thanks guys


Lee \:\)
Posted by: jotur

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/07/08 07:14 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Seaside_Lee:
OMG!!!

I'm away for a couple of weeks and we are on page 12 already!!!

Blimey, I've got a lot to catch up on here!! \:D


thanks guys


Lee \:\) [/b]
Yeah, me, too. But since I've already shoveled twice today, and my neighbor's shoveled once, and it's snowing again, I think I'll go make some supper, read thru the last 4 pages of this thread that I've printed out, and then - get in a little piano time \:\)

Oh, and I vote to keep it one long thread. I have a book on my piano bench \:\)

Cathy
Posted by: Jeff Bauer

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/07/08 09:56 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Bauer:
Great topic Jazzwee. I have been following it with interest.

Would anyone here benefit from a downloadable MP3 of a back track without the piano part to play along with? I created a latin style version with acoustic guitar, percussion, and bass - it's a MIDI file, however I can convert it to MP3 with ease. It's arranged a little different, but nothing too difficult. [/b]
Jeff, I wondered when you would show up. That's a great idea. Please post it. I was going to eventually load a Band In the Box version of this as a play along but I have to reinstall BIAB and don't have much time. I may do it later.

By the way, guys, Jeff and I shared a couple of the same teachers. such a small world...

Please hang out with us Jeff. [/b]
Wow this topic is moving fast! I always played Autumn Leaves in Gmin, and when I saw this topic it encouraged me to play it in E min. I quickly learned that the shapes I am so accustomed to playing in G min weren't there in E min. Learning something in a different key makes it fun to re-invent the shapes and patterns that make up the solo.

Anyhow, I decided to give myself something to practice with, and figured I would share the recordings with the fine folks here. A few notes about the recording...

Here is the form: Intro chords - Head - shortened intro chords - solo over head 3 times - intro chords - guitar plays head, solo over second half of head - piano plays head - intro chords end out the song with the piano soloing.

The intro is the following chord progression:
|Emin |Amin/E |Bmaj/E |Emin Cmaj Dmaj| X3
|Emin |Amin/E |F#maj/E |Bsus4/E |
The first set of chords goes 3 times through, then the 4th introduces the F# major chord. After the intro, you are off and running with the normal autumn leaves chord progession you know and love.


Autumn Leaves MP3 with no piano

Original MIDI file

A note about the MIDI file. This was recorded on a Yamaha Clavinova CVP409. If you play it on something else, it's not going to sound anything like the recording.. hehe. Particularly if you open it up with windows media player, which will sound really awful.

The obvious advantage of the MIDI file is you can slow down, transpose, even view each individual track. I left my piano part in the MIDI file for reference.


Here is a link to the full audio file with the piano:
Autumn Leaves with piano

Have fun! I always found it easier to practice something like this with a backup band, so I will usually create a file like this when I practice a new tune, time permitting.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/07/08 10:30 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Bauer:
Anyhow, I decided to give myself something to practice with, and figured I would share the recordings with the fine folks here. A few notes about the recording...

Have fun! I always found it easier to practice something like this with a backup band, so I will usually create a file like this when I practice a new tune, time permitting.[/b]
Wow! Simply amazing. When it started, I thought to myself, hmmmm, this doesn't sound like Autumn Leaves. Maybe he uploaded the wrong file. That definitely has a great Latin feel to it. Really excellent! I loved the guitar and organ backing. And of course the percussion. Did you create the whole backing part on the Clavinova? I'd be really happy with myself if I was ever able to create something like that... For now, I'm greatly indebted to you for providing something like that that I can use as a learning tool. Many thanks.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/07/08 11:12 PM

Jeff, that's fantastic! A Latin Jazz version of Autumn Leaves! That's really cool. This is the first solo post too.

BTW - since it is available in MIDI, one could study Jeff's solo and figure out out he's soloing through the changes. You can watch the actual key presses using a free Midi Player called "Van Basco" Player. It is a free download on the web.

Jeff, I sold my keyboard so I don't have an electronic keyboard at the moment. Hoping to find a new Axe soon. Your recording stoked me to fix up my digital setup. Even my Zoom H4 isn't working too well so it's so frustrating to record.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/07/08 11:55 PM

THEORY – CHORDS WITH EXTENSIONS[/b]

While everyone is busy practicing the basic LH and RH for Autumn Leaves, it’s time for some theory instruction. In order to understand later lessons on voicings, it will be important to be well versed on Chord construction and in particular the adding of “Extensions”

Let’s get back to the “C” scale for reference once again. The C scale is made up of notes as follows (extended to a couple of octaves)::

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C

What’s missing here are the black keys so just so we can visually remember them, I will put a mark (underscore) indicating a black key position. The C scale has no black keys in it. But in Jazz, we will oftentimes use notes that are not in the scale and this is part of the discussion of creating chords.

This is the same C scale but now with marks indicating where some other notes exist but are not part of the C scale (i.e. Db, Eb, Gb, Ab, Bb)..

C _ D _ E F _ G _ A _ B C _ D _ E F _ G _ A _ B C

This just demonstrates that the C scale (or any other major scale) is not symmetrical in appearance or even in intervals. Now go back to our previous scale degree lesson and you remember that chords built off different degrees have different qualities. Remember that roman numerals below indicate the degree of the scale where the chord is found.

I - C Major 7 (C Maj7)
C[/b] _ D _ E[/b] F _ G[/b] _ A _ B[/b] C _ D _ E F _ G _ A _ B C

II – D Minor 7 (Dm7)
C _ D[/b] _ E F[/b] _ G _ A[/b] _ B C[/b] _ D _ E F _ G _ A _ B C

III – E Minor 7 (Em7)
C _ D _ E[/b] F _ G[/b] _ A _ B[/b] C _ D[/b] _ E F _ G _ A _ B C

IV – F Major 7 (FM7)
C _ D _ E F[/b] _ G _ A[/b] _ B C[/b] _ D _ E[/b] F _ G _ A _ B C

V – G7 (G7)
C _ D _ E F _ G[/b] _ A _ B[/b] C _ D[/b] _ E F[/b] _ G _ A _ B C

VI – A Minor 7 (Am7)
C _ D _ E F _ G _ A[/b] _ B C[/b] _ D _ E[/b] F _ G[/b] _ A _ B C

VII – B Minor7 Flat 5 (Bm7b5) also known as B Half Diminished
C _ D _ E F _ G _ A _ B[/b] C _ D[/b] _ E F[/b] _ G _ A[/b] _ B C

* (_)Underscores are place holders for non-scale notes.

As complicated as it all seems, observe that all seventh chords (whether Major, Minor, Dominant, or Half Diminished) are formed simply by picking a starting scale note and then selecting every other note until you have a total of 4 notes.

For terminology purposes, a chord with the first 3 notes only as shown above (skipping the fourth note) are called Triads. In jazz, we will often refer to the full 4 notes when referring to a chord. The 4th note is referred to as the seventh of the chord so 4 note chords are referred to as Seventh Chords.

Let’s look at CMaj7 Again.

I - C Major 7 (C Maj7)
C[/b] _ D _ E[/b] F _ G[/b] _ A _ B[/b] C _ D _ E F _ G _ A _ B C

Here you can see we picked the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th note of the scale to construct this chord. Whichever chord we make (as shown in the Scale Degrees above), we will always refer to the 1st note as the Root, the 2nd note as the Third, the next as the Fifth, and the final note as the Seventh.

The intervals between notes are not the same between between each chord. For example compared to the II Degree (Dm7), you will notice that the intervals between notes is not the same. Each chord has it’s own quality and has a different sound because of the asymmetry of the scale.

(See interval between C and E in CMaj7 compared to interval between D and F in Dm7). Later on we will pay attention to this interval by notating the quality of the chord interval. For example, CMaj7 is made of 1, 3,5,7, while a Dm7 is made up of 1,b3,5,b7. Count the intervals above including the underscores and you will see the difference in intervals.

I will not try to explain this much further as I'm sure most of you are past recognizing a minor third interval (b3) from a major third interval(b7).

Continued...[/b]
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/08/08 12:17 AM

.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/08/08 12:22 AM

THEORY – CHORDS WITH EXTENSIONS (2)[/b]

Going back to our same CMaj7 chord, I will now continue to make up to seven notes of the chord to include "Extensions".

I - C Major 7 (C Maj7)
C[/b] _ D _ E[/b] F _ G[/b] _ A _ B[/b] C _ D[/b] _ E F[/b] _ G _ A[/b] _ B C


You can see that I'm following the same rule which is skipping every other note in the scale. What I've arrived at is a chord with a 9, 11, 13. If you count the notes starting from the root you will see why they are called that. So now our CMaj7 chord has the following notes:

1,3,5,7,9,11,13

This is now a major chord with ALL the possible extensions.

But Wait! Some of the notes are Repeats so 9, 11, 13 are the same as the notes in 2,4, and 6 of the chord. Just remember that in Jazz, a seventh chord is not referred to as having a 2,4 or 6. It is always 9, 11, 13 to indicate that they are Extensions of the original chord.

Instead of arranging the chord as:

1,3,5,7,9,11,13


You can see that you can also arrange it as

1,9,3,11,5,13,7

...since the notes are identical. This is the most common representation of a jazz chord and needs to be memorized. So once again, 9,11,13 are physically the same notes as 2,4,6.

I - C Major 7 (C Maj7)
C _ D _ E F _ G _ A _ B[/b] C _ D _ E F _ G _ A _ B C

Now you probably wondered why I included those underscores originally. Those underscores show that some notes can be flatted or sharped.

For example, the 9th of the chord (D), can be b9, or #9 as there are underscores (or non-scale notes on either side of it).

F, the 11th can be moved to #11. But there is no b11 as there is no non-scale key there.

A, the 13th can be b13, but by convention we do not ever refer to a #13. Instead that is called a b7.

So once again to summarize, here are the possible extensions to a chord.

b9,9,#9,11,#11,b13,13,b7

#9 can also be referred to as b3 in a minor chord context.

#11 is also frequently referred to as b5 (and we do it frequently in Autumn Leaves). Thus F#m7b5 is the same as F#m7(+11). Notice how I used + instead of sharp. Otherwise it gets confusing to see two sharps in there so we know that +11 is the same as #11.


We have the 12 Tone Chromatic Scale![/b]

Now let me put all the possible extensions together with the original 1,3,5,7 of the chord. What do we have now?

Half Steps/Label
1 1
2 b9
3 9
4 #9 or b3
5 3
6 11
7 #11 or b5
8 5
9 b13
10 13
11 b7
12 7

This is the chromatic scale. You can start on any root note and you can make a chord if you memorize all these interval markings. Each item is a half step in the scale.


Now at this point, you may not understand why I discussed all this. This is quite important to voicing a chord.

For example, in Autumn Leaves, we might more specifically state that the CMaj7 in that tune is actually CMaj7#11 or CMaj7(+11). What this is telling you is that if you play a CMaj7 and then include the 11 (same as 4, remember?) that it should be played sharped (F#).

Extensions are very important to Jazz and these symbols of intervals is the foundation of much of Jazz theory. So learn this and you're halfway there.

Now one other thing. This example is of a C scale. Don't assume that those underscores in my scale charts are always black keys. They have nothing to do with black keys. They stand for non-scale notes.

As we already discussed heavily in this thread, the G scale is:
G A B C D E F# G.
So the 7th of this scale is F# or a black key. Thus a b7 would be F.

So get used to the geometry. In essence you have to know the shape of every scale, but at least in Autumn Leaves, you need to only know the G scale for now. I'm sure you can add this to C scale as everyone will by now be extremely familiar with the C scale.
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/08/08 04:57 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Bauer:
Here is a link to the full audio file with the piano:
Autumn Leaves with piano
[/b]
Wow! awesome... what a great resource - thanks!

\:\)

I'm going to try and load the midi into my new FP-7 and see what it does. Presumably if the midi implementions differ I can edit the midi file with something... I've been fiddling with the FP-7 session partner to try and get something to play along to, but w/o success.
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/08/08 07:06 AM

Jeff,

Just listened to your Latin rendition of AL on my computer & positively enjoyed it.

I now can't wait to load it up on my own Clavinova & hear it again using its voices & speakers. I also hope to learn a lot from the midi file. Thanks for assisting the study by providing your expertise. Greatly appreciated.

David
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/08/08 10:01 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LaValse:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Bauer:
Here is a link to the full audio file with the piano:
Autumn Leaves with piano
[/b]
Wow! awesome... what a great resource - thanks!

\:\)

I'm going to try and load the midi into my new FP-7 and see what it does. Presumably if the midi implementions differ I can edit the midi file with something... I've been fiddling with the FP-7 session partner to try and get something to play along to, but w/o success. [/b]
I got it to play on my Yamaha XS8. But it lost quite a bit in the process. The drums turned into normal drums instead of congas. The guitar was pretty different, I think. And some of the mix stuff. But it works pretty well as something to play along with. I bet I could edit the MIDI data a bit to get some of that flair and style back. I've created my own backing tracks as well. But definitely nothing as elaborate as this.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 12:33 AM

LESSON 4 - SOLO PIANO/BALLAD IDEAS[/b]

LH[/b]

On the LH, arpeggiate the Root, 5th and 7th of each chord. It's the same as the 1/7 we've been discussing here but putting a 5th in between.

You can also do a rolling Tenth by arpeggiating the Root, 5th and Tenth (3rd an octave above the root) or Root, 7th and Tenth.

Am7
Root - A
5th - E
7th - G
10th - C

D7
Root - D
5th - A
7th - C
10th - F#

GMaj7
Root - G
5th - D
7th - F#
10th - B

CMaj7
Root - C
5th - G
7th - B
10th - E

F#m7b5
Root - F
5th (b5) - C
7th - E
10th - A

B7b9
Root - B
5th - F#
7th - A
10th - Eb

Em7
Root - E
5th - B
7th - D
10th - G


RH[/b]

Assuming that you're not playing jazz style doing a full improvisation, you can fill in the music by doing triad arpeggios of the G Scale.

For example, you can go through ascending triads in the different scale degrees of G as follows:

G B D
A C E
B D F#
C E G
D F# G
E G B
F# G B

(Advanced Jazz Note: BTW - These ascending triads, when done as Triplet 8ths in a Jazz context is something frequently done by Bill Evans. The triplet run gives it a rhythmic contrast to the 4/4 rhythm)

If you do this fast it sounds like you really know what you're doing. You can try other patterns like triads going down or mixing up the triads in some way. You won't sound dissonant no matter what you do because you're playing 'diatonic' chords in the scale of the tune (G).

You can mix it up with little variations of the melody.

You can play the melody in Octaves on the RH for a full sound. Or play just the 3rd of each LH chord as a root and the RH playing Root 5th 8th of that note.

Now mind you, this is absolutely not jazz. But since some of you asked, this is one possible idea for casual/ballad solo piano playing.

Perhaps Elssa can describe her method as well since she posted music in this style.
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 08:08 AM

It's just a thought (that may have been mentioned already) but there are *lots* of online jazz stations out there - I've been listening to them the last few days while I'm working via iTunes instead of BBC Radio 3. Just letting it wash over me - often find the old foot tapping along w/o realising it... \:\)

KPLU at present...
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 11:40 AM

I updated the index. Let me know if I missed anything important...
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 01:20 PM

Jeff, that was a fantastic piece!
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 01:55 PM

Jazzwee,

I had my Real Book open last night and I remembered what you said about the dominate 7th as a flag to figure out what key you're in. I checked Desafinado and the C7 gives me the key of F, so far so good.

Then I checked Ipanema (I was feeling Jobim!)which is in the same key but I didn't find a C7 although the 3rd measure did have a G7.

Misty is a real mystery! I found Bb7 (which works) but there is also an Eb7 and a Db7. All of these seem to be transition chords as they are found on the third beat of there respective measures.

A bit off topic but curious minds want to know!
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 02:27 PM

Ipanema: It's in F. (there's only one flat - so it's either D minor or F major - in this case F-major)
You won't find a C7 as Jobim as done a - drumroll - tritone substitute! Exchanged the C7 for a F#7 (Gb7).
That's what gives (amongst others) the song such a wonderful brazil lilt.

Misty is in the key of Eb. There's three flats - which means either Eb-major or C-minor.


To figure out a songs key one can also check the last bar.


End of Misty a Eb + 1 bar with a II-V turnaround.

Tritone substitution: also called "Diabolus in Musica" in the good-old days is something that we jazzers love to do. The principle is that one can substitute a dominant chord for its tritone equivalent. C7 for a Gb7. But that's worth a thread of it's own.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 05:12 PM

ADVANCED THEORY - IGNORE[/b]

Stegerson, Chris Bell is correct. These types of tunes use Tritone Substitution on the dominants. The clue to this is a lack of a ii-V-I progression. Typically it will be a ii-bII-I.

For example if the ii-V-I is
Dm7 - G7 - CMaj7

A tritone substituted version will be:
Dm7 - Db7 - Cmaj7

We don't have to go in full Tritone substitution theory right now but just recognize the unique harmonic progression (Chromatic downwards). You can and will do Tritone (and other) substitutions on AL later on but we'll leave it for later on this thread.

How about using the other Jazz Thread for any general theory discussion unrelated to AL? Just for a little separation.
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 06:18 PM

Just in case there are other noobs out there with authority issues who pay extra attention to the posts that say "ignore," the link that Elssa posted a while back had a very clear discussion of tritone substitution. It's in section AU 5.

http://esvc001419.wic024u.server-web.com/articles/aut.htm
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 06:23 PM

bluekeys, you forgot to put Ignore[/b] on your response... \:D \:D
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 07:03 PM

 Quote:

How about using the other Jazz Thread for any general theory discussion unrelated to AL? Just for a little separation.
Yes, you are right. I have two kids running around so sometimes I'm lucky to get a posting out at all!!

Thanks for the great responses, they are greatly helping my understanding.

I presently have no way to upload mp3's or midi's. I hope to fix this soon. Again, great thread!
Posted by: Jeff Bauer

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 08:37 PM

I don't want to add any instruction here, since Jazzwee is doing a great job at it and I can't think of anything to add that won't just confuse what everyone is learning so far.

However, I do want to make a comment on a video posted earlier: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89B6OmBuG4A

This has more to do with soloing, but it applies to piano playing in general...The video is Bill Evans playing Autumn Leaves. One of the toughest things to do when improvising is to remain calm and in control. regardless of your skill level, it is easy for us to speed up, get choppy, out of control, and downright unmusical at times - your brain is processing a lot of things on the fly.

Look at how in control he is. You can rest a cup of coffee on his left hand, as he lightly plays those open left hand chords jazzwee has been suggesting from the start. Around 2:58 into the song, you see something spectacular. Something, as a jazz pianist you hear your teacher say ALL THE TIME. Breathe.

Look at the long draw of breathe Bill takes after a phrase, as he sets himself up for the next run.

I can't say enough how important it is to relax. If you aren't relaxed playing how you are playing, try doing it a little simpler.
Posted by: Jeff Bauer

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 09:01 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:

Jeff, I sold my keyboard so I don't have an electronic keyboard at the moment. Hoping to find a new Axe soon. Your recording stoked me to fix up my digital setup. Even my Zoom H4 isn't working too well so it's so frustrating to record. [/b]
I know what you mean. I procrastinate recording - this one was made on the Clavinova near my office desk. It's easy to record on, and didn't take a whole lot of production.

My rig at home is more difficult to use, and quite frankly I have lost my touch with the electronics. My 2007 resolution was to become an expert in my home studio... that resolution was forwarded on to 2008, but I have yet to look at that email \:\)
Posted by: Jeff Bauer

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 09:05 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
Did you create the whole backing part on the Clavinova?[/b]
Yes. The super articulated guitar is really something on the Clavinova. But all the sounds are high quality and fun to record with.

Thanks deeluk, and everyone else for the kind words. I intend to learn from this jazz study group too - making that recording was a learning experience for me, and wouldn't have happened unless jazzwee started the topic in the first place.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 09:40 PM

Jeff, you're obviously an advanced player and it shows in your solo. It was melodic and clearly outlined the chord changes and with a lot of technical flourish.

Unfortunately, no one has yet admitted to doing any solos and it's time to take the risk. Everyone, play those simple LH voicings and start 'noodling' on the RH to get things going and report your findings (if not your recordings). Tell us what your difficulties are.

I said much earlier that you can start your solos by first just playing thirds on the RH, then slowly introduce other notes and do it slow with lots of space (what jazzers call 'breathing' as you saw Jeff refer to it above).

The biggest mistake, I made as a beginner was doing too many notes at first. Now I realize that you develop those faster eight note lines better by training your ear to recognize simple melodies (using quarter notes and half notes). Certainly, this is within everyone's ability to play slow melodies (guided by the 3rd at first).

You don't have to master swing and the melody to start this. You could split up your practice time to handle all this simultaneously. Play just ballad style first and commit to soloing everyday. That's daily practice for jazzers.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/09/08 09:45 PM

OFF TOPIC - Jeff, is there a Stage Piano version of the Clavinova? I find that the S90ES I had was so complex. I'm looking now for something simple, with a few basic sounds (and excellent piano) and an ability to record. I'm looking at a Roland FP4/FP7. A Clavinova sounds great actually but they're expensive and non-portable.
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/10/08 12:08 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:
Just in case there are other noobs out there with authority issues who pay extra attention to the posts that say "ignore," the link that Elssa posted a while back had a very clear discussion of tritone substitution. It's in section AU 5.

http://esvc001419.wic024u.server-web.com/articles/aut.htm [/b]
Thanks, a very interesting link.

Serge
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/10/08 03:03 AM

Well, I'm not up for solo or improv yet. At least, not for posting any recordings here. Here is my latest version with a Charleston LH rhythm:

http://www.box.net/shared/fv9ukahcso.

My brain shut down momentarily during that rendition...

I'll start working on my improv some more. I doubt I'll have the guts to post anything. As you said jazzwee, I find myself playing too many notes. And, I lose myself in the changes too. Usually that's with blues where you have more than a couple of bars of a given chord. Perhaps the AL changes might make it more obvious. We'll see how it goes. I still need to develop my rhythm further.
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/10/08 08:01 AM

Is it paramount that you know exactly why you're playing a particular note when trying to noodle/solo at first, or, is some experimentation allowed based on what sounds good - and then work out why it sounds good afterwards; i.e. do some of the theory retrospectively rather than in real-time...
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/10/08 11:27 AM

Deeluk (and everyone else), you don't have to post a solo. All we need to do for now is discuss problems you're having when you attempt to solo.

Of course we all expect that any solo will not sound like a jazz master. I don't sound like one either. But knowing how bad I sounded at the beginning, one starts to see how you can progress. That's the more important element here.

LaValse, feel free to noodle and experiment. That's what it's all about. The only rule I suggested was to play the third of each chord. Start with that. It will trigger the ideas.

The other rule I suggested is to play only quarter notes and half notes first and put a lot of space in there. Each line should be no longer than the way you speak and stop when you need to breath. For the rest of it, rely on your ears.

You don't have to swing it at first if you don't want to or even to have it be in strict rhythm. You can build towards that later. There's ear training involved here and it takes time.

You can ask Jeff Bauer, but he didn't learn to solo like that overnight.

Start with this and then as you gain more confidence we will deal with more solo 'Rules'. The more important step is that soloing become a routine of daily practice.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/10/08 04:21 PM

Perhaps Elssa can describe her method as well since she posted music in this style.[/b]

Well, I guess the best way to describe my "method" there is a very lame attempt to sound remotely like Roger Williams. \:D But as you say, I was sometimes changing octaves and playing chords/octaves or just octaves with the right hand. The left hand was mostly arpeggios, sometimes in a Chopin etude style/pattern.


I'm working on the jazzy soloing now..I really like the way this guy is playing what sounds like some kind of a walking bass (starting in the bridge). Do you know what he's doing with the left hand there - is he just walking up the scale tones of each chord?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q4ROIVRH8WU
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/10/08 05:08 PM

Hi Elssa, what you are referring to is in fact a 'Walking Bass' and there's a specific instruction for this. It's again advanced but I think it's worth discussing. No, it is not built on arpeggios (although it could include them).

When I first did Walking bass, it took a year for me to walk and solo at the same time. Nothing wrong with practicing it now and developing this skill. I will do a writeup of this later and I'm sure others like Chris Bell might step in.

For listening purposes, one of the masters of this style is Dave McKenna. You'll find some of his playing on YouTube.

One thing about Walking the bass is that it really swings the tune. A typical approach is to play with shells, then walk a couple of choruses and then go back to chords. It's a very nice effect for solo piano.

Another style I'll discuss later is what I call 'modified Stride' (no official name for this), where you play an occasional bass note then followed by a rootless chord on the LH. A very modern playing style and something that needs to be heavily discussed. But this has to come after we talk about Voicings (still early here). It's not a regular old time stride because the bass note is irregular.

A good soloist would mix about all these styles all in one tune and takes one from the realm of 'cocktail piano' to real jazz playing.

Anyway, wait for a later post when I have a bit more time.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/10/08 05:30 PM

Thanks for the explanation. \:\) Sorry, but I didn't mean that I thought he was playing the actual chord (triad) tones. I thought he was just sort of walking up the scale tones, changing the scale with each change of chord required. Will wait for when you have time to go into this further, though. \:\) I've played a little walking bass in the past (Mack the Knife, etc).

If you want to move this or delete this till a later time, that's really fine! \:D
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/10/08 08:50 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
All we need to do for now is discuss problems you're having when you attempt to solo.
[/b]
Here's the problem that I always encounter:

- I don't know what note to play next.

In my mind, I go through logic like: A chord tone is probably a safe choice, maybe a diatonic tone from the current key, how about something from the scale associated with the current chord?

I go through this kind of logic in my head, and produce broken, choppy, sequences of notes in an uneven tempo that almost never sound good.

Anybody else in the same boat?

The good news is that my normal playing has improved 100% since I started following this thread. I have great hopes now about my soloing potential.
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/10/08 09:18 PM

 Quote:

Here's the problem that I always encounter:

- I don't know what note to play next.
...
Anybody else in the same boat?
Well, no. I have the opposite problem. I have zillions of melodies running through my head, and most of them work very nicely if I slow everything way down, separate the hands, practice them like a classical etude, and only put everything back together after its "perfect."

Maybe it's from slugging shots and peeling off blues riffs on a beat up guitar for 30 years, but I don't have any problem knowing what I *want* to play, I just can't seem to get the pinkies on the right keys. \:D
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 12:12 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
All we need to do for now is discuss problems you're having when you attempt to solo.
[/b]
Here's the problem that I always encounter:

- I don't know what note to play next.

In my mind, I go through logic like: A chord tone is probably a safe choice, maybe a diatonic tone from the current key, how about something from the scale associated with the current chord?

I go through this kind of logic in my head, and produce broken, choppy, sequences of notes in an uneven tempo that almost never sound good.

Anybody else in the same boat?

The good news is that my normal playing has improved 100% since I started following this thread. I have great hopes now about my soloing potential. [/b]
Keyboardjungle, let's approach your problem first.

1. First, for now think ONLY about the G Scale. Don't think of scales per chord right now.

2. Aside from the G Scale, just make sure you can pull out the third of every chord. That's the only chord tone you need to think of first.

3. If you stay close to the third, moving no more than a step or two away from the third of a particular chord, again, staying within the G scale, it should sound melodic. Make sure you can do this first before you jump into anything else.

This is like ear training. The beginner's mistake is to think that to solo is all about memorizing scale note choices. In reality, we end up training our ear to hear the melodies. This takes awhile BTW, in my experience and in the meantime, one is stuck to mechanical note choices. But the above exercise should help you hear first.

The reason it works is that the Third is instrumental in hearing the chord. The seventh on the other hand leads to the next chord (leading tone). For each chord, the third will orient you. So once the harmonic structure is defined in your ear, intervallic moves that are close by (no more than a major 2nd - 3 half steps), tend to sound less tense and will be good for initial melody making. It takes more hearing skill to hear shapes of large intervallic moves.

This is just an exercise, I wouldn't want you to draw from this a permanent solo structure. This is ear training.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 12:17 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:
 Quote:

Here's the problem that I always encounter:

- I don't know what note to play next.
...
Anybody else in the same boat?
Well, no. I have the opposite problem. I have zillions of melodies running through my head, and most of them work very nicely if I slow everything way down, separate the hands, practice them like a classical etude, and only put everything back together after its "perfect."

Maybe it's from slugging shots and peeling off blues riffs on a beat up guitar for 30 years, but I don't have any problem knowing what I *want* to play, I just can't seem to get the pinkies on the right keys. \:D [/b]
Bluekeys, for you the solution is more simple. What you need is SPACE. Cut your lines short and breathe in between (leave empty space). This will allow you to reorient yourself. I would also slow it down. The exercise I was taught in this case was to play only quarter notes. Playing slowly at first builds up your speed for later. This will allow your technique to catch up with what you hear.
Posted by: Mike A

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 12:55 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
... The reason it works is that the Third is instrumental in hearing the chord. The seventh on the other hand leads to the next chord (leading tone). ...[/b]
Must be using a definition of leading tone other than the conventional one.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 01:03 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Mike A:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
... The reason it works is that the Third is instrumental in hearing the chord. The seventh on the other hand leads to the next chord (leading tone). ...[/b]
Must be using a definition of leading tone other than the conventional one. [/b]
My teacher's explanation is the 7th is already being played. Remember we're doing 1/7 shells.

Seventh leads to 3rd of next chord in ii-V. If you kept playing alternating 3's and 7's you'll hear this constant half step moving down to each third. The point isn't that 3rds become your solo. It's about hearing the thirds move and supporting your shell chords.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 02:32 AM

Lesson 5- Walking Bass Lines on LH[/b]

Here's a way to do walking bass lines on a tune like Autumn Leaves. Walking a bass involves a pulsing quarter note usually in the first full Octave of the piano and usually in a medium swing tempo. It takes a bit of hand independence to walk a bass in the LH and then solo in the RH, but fortunately there are stages.

In the most involved and advanced use, some one could conceive of an improvised walking bass line on the LH while also improvising on the RH. With most people this comes as a shifting of the brain back and forth from right to left so the other hand tones down a bit while the other hand is active.

There are intermediate variations, such as mixing up a few variations of a walking bass line, or in the most basic form, just memorizing a pre-set walking bass line pattern.

Although this may seemingly be an advanced lesson, it really isn't because you can actually just play the LH alone, such was when making a recording. This is not that hard to do when you're laying down a track at a time. It's hard to do in solo piano.

I learned how to Walk a bass line from my first studies of Jazz so it is something that deserves early introduction. It is however, something that may take a long time to master in it's most advanced form. So for the moment, we will preconcieve a bass line and you can just memorize it and repeat it over and over. That's how I learned it. You'd have to play the bass line in your LH while you read the paper. \:D or while having a conversation. It has to be fully automatic or you will not be able to solo.

Construction of the Bass Line[/b]

The logic of a bass line is actually not too complicated. There just a few rules, especially important for a piano player who is one's own rhythm section.

First think of the beats in each measure.

| 1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 |

We're doing quarter notes so we have to fill in 4 bass notes per measure.

Rules:

Rule 1: Start with the Root on Beat 1. So for Autumn Leaves, the first four measures will look like this:

| A . . . | D . . . | G . . . | C . . . |

I've placed dots on other notes that are unfilled at this time. So far so good because this is no different than the roots we've been playing in the 1/7 shells.

Rule 1: The next note we will fill is the "LEADING TONE". What do I mean here? To the bassist, one of the key notes is to strongly lead into the next chord and that means you pick a note a half step away from the next Root. This note is placed on Beat 4. So I will make a new measure with a leading tone. In this example, I will come from a half step below. In reality you can come from a half step below or above.

| A . . Db | D . . Gb | G . . Cb | C . . F |

Rule 3: Fill in the notes in the middle. Now what notes should we put in the middle? Here's the funny part. IT DOESN'T MATTER! You could put chord tones like 3rd and 5th, or you could go chromatically. Or you could find a way to the leading town downwards instead of upwards. Your basic task is connect the root to the leading tone.

I'm going to make an example here where in each measure I go upwards from the root to the leading tone.

| (Up) A B C Db | (Up) D E F Gb | (Down) G A Bb B | (Up) C Eb E F | F# ...

Read this as each succeeding note after the root is going upwards to the leading tone. The root here will actually jump up and down an octave to keep in the right register. So in the above example, the G is played down again.

This is actually a common pattern for a memorized walking bass line. If you want to sound passable, just memorize this pattern of chromatic movement to the next root.

Another common method for ii-V-I progressions is to alternate going up and down.

| (Up) A B C Eb | D (Down) C B Gb | (Up) G A C Db | (Down) C B G F | F# ...


Rule 4: To give it more swing, accent beats 2 and 4 when you play it.

| x 2 x 4 | x 2 x 4 | x 2 x 4 | x 2 x 4 |...

More: There are other tricks in the book that I was taught that I cannot describe in print. One has to listen to it. There's a rhythmic play one does on beat 1 that sounds like 'Pig-in-a-poke' (say it rhythmically and quickly ;\) )played as sixteenths and mixed in with blurry lower bass notes. Maybe someone can explain this better. It's not something one always uses but it is an added flair.

Rule 5: Play each quarter note LEGATO.

Fingering: A prior teacher of mine was pretty good with walking bass lines and taught me to do this to make backing tracks on recordings. And I noticed that he fingered most of his bass notes using just fingers 1,2,3 of his LH, reserving the other fingers for quickly moving backwards and doing a 'pig-in-a-poke' manuever.


Experts, please feel free to provide full pre-written walking bass line examples for Autumn Leaves. There are many ways of doing this.

Let me just pass a final experience here. I transcribed a walking bass to a Blues Tune by Master Bass Player Ray Brown. I have to say, in just one single tune, I learned so many variations of how to walk. There was enough in one single transcription. So I just passed you the basics. The rest you can learn on your own direct from the masters. Listening is what it's about guys.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 12:12 PM

Just another note about Walking Bass lines.

I had two teachers that dealt with Walking Bass Lines in early lessons. My current teacher DOES NOT WALK THE BASS. This is a matter of stylistic choice. He has never taught me anything on Walking bass at all.

So the choice is yours. It is possible to play jazz and never really master walking the bass while soloing. For those with digital keyboards/synths, walking is kind of neat because you can split the keyboard and have multiple parts going.

If you intend to make your own recordings, I think walking is important at least doing LH alone. Nowadays, I hardly ever do any Walking bass. My skill at this has deteriorated from lack of practice. It took me two years of practice of this to get this so I can actually solo while I walk. Now I'd probably stick to a few patterns.
Posted by: Mike A

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 01:40 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Mike A:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
... The reason it works is that the Third is instrumental in hearing the chord. The seventh on the other hand leads to the next chord (leading tone). ...[/b]
Must be using a definition of leading tone other than the conventional one. [/b]
So far as I understand the term leading tones, in a ii-V-I progression -- or, for that matter, iii-vi-ii-V-I, or iii-VI-ii-V-I, or III-VI-II-V-I, or ii-V-I-IV, or ii-V-i, etc., i.e., any circle-of-fifths progression -- there is no chord in which the seventh is the leading tone. Not possible. However, the third in every dominant 7th chord in a V>I relationship IS the leading tone.

In the key of G, for example, the leading tone is F#. F# is the third of D7, the V7 chord.

(The leading tone does appear, in enharmonic form, as the seventh in a subV7 -- for example, Ab7 as a subV7 for D7, the seventh is Gb (F#).)

I assume you're using some other definition of leading tone.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 01:55 PM

Mike A, if you do the fingering for 3/7 shells, you will note that the 7th of ii chord always goes a half step down to the 3rd of the V chord.

This is standard fingering in 'voice leading' voicings. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your comment.

In fact we do this even in our 1/7 (ii chord) to 1/3 (V chord) voicings. The 7 of ii goes down a half step to 3.

This is the reason I'm not focusing on 7th's in solo practice since it will just be moving of half steps to the third and really you can move to the third from the below as well.

So in 3/7 shells, yes both are 'guide tones' but the 7 always has a special function of 'voice leading' to the next chord in a circle of fifths.

Edit: Note too that the voice leading is heavily used in Walking Bass on beat 4. In theory, if it comes from above then it would be the 7th of the chord but not if it comes from below.
Posted by: Mike A

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 03:03 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
... the 7 always has a special function of 'voice leading' to the next chord in a circle of fifths.

Edit: Note too that the voice leading is heavily used in Walking Bass on beat 4. In theory, if it comes from above then it would be the 7th of the chord but not if it comes from below. [/b]
Sounds like you're also using a definition of voice leading other than the conventional one.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 03:50 PM

I'm going to make an example here where in each measure I go upwards from the root to the leading tone.[/b]

I really like the sound of that bass - seems like the pattern is basically walking up a whole step, then two half steps. I'm just playing it together with the plain Autumn Leaves melody (don't know if I'll ever get to the point where I could improvise over a walking bass). \:D In doing this, at a couple points, the melody and your bass line notes are played together with a half step interval (example: L.H. F with R.H. E). Is that okay? They clash a little but it's so quick that it still all sounds good to my ears. \:\)


The walking bass line pattern I learned in the past was like this:
(up) A,B,C,E, (down) upper-A,G,F#..

You leave the fourth tone out in walking up.

http://www.keyboardedu.com/Pamphlets/pamleftbass.html

I like your bass line, Jazzwee, much better with Autumn Leaves, though. \:\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 04:43 PM

Hi Elssa, the half step approach (leading tone) is the way real bass players do it, that's why it sounds authentic.

You can mix it up with just chord tones like 1 3 5 7 but if you just did that it would not have the same effect.

The middle tones don't matter so much. It's more the pulse that counts. For example you could play Root + 5 + Root + approach tone

Occasional big octave jumps make it interesting.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 04:46 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Mike A:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
... the 7 always has a special function of 'voice leading' to the next chord in a circle of fifths.

Edit: Note too that the voice leading is heavily used in Walking Bass on beat 4. In theory, if it comes from above then it would be the 7th of the chord but not if it comes from below. [/b]
Sounds like you're also using a definition of voice leading other than the conventional one. [/b]
Hi Mika A, I'm not aware of an alternative description. Particularly when we get to rootless voicings in jazz, the term 'voicing leading' is bandied around regularly.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 05:05 PM

Even just playing it along with the melody or R. H. chords, I think the walking bass adds so much to it - nice variety. \:\)

Going back to the subject of right-hand soloing, by "swinging it", you mean play some kind of dotted/triplet rhythm? I find that easier than playing "straight" for the improvising. I also find putting some kind of swing/jazz rhythm on in the background helps me, especially with the "breathing" - I don't feel I need to use a million notes when that's on. I have a Roland FP-5 and am just using the plain Jazz rhythm.

http://www.iwasdoingallright.com/improv/97/
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 05:12 PM

Hi Elssa, I'm unclear on what you are referencing. Just to be clear, one does not swing a walking bass line. Swinging is in the RH. The LH supplies an even quarter note pulse. But accenting 2 and 4 gives it a swing feel even though the pulse is even.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 05:14 PM

Right, I was referring to the soloing right hand, not the bass. \:\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 05:37 PM

I hope you've read the long discussions of swing earlier (especially accenting).
Posted by: Mike A

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 06:57 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mike A:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
... the 7 always has a special function of 'voice leading' to the next chord in a circle of fifths.

Edit: Note too that the voice leading is heavily used in Walking Bass on beat 4. In theory, if it comes from above then it would be the 7th of the chord but not if it comes from below. [/b]
Sounds like you're also using a definition of voice leading other than the conventional one. [/b]
Hi Mika A, I'm not aware of an alternative description. Particularly when we get to rootless voicings in jazz, the term 'voicing leading' is bandied around regularly. [/b]
Might be worth a little woodshedding ... "voice leading" and "leading tones."

Anyway, enough from me. Signing off.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 07:02 PM

I'd like to woodshed it if there's an issue but I'm still not clear on the problem.

Wikipedia:

LEADING TONE

In music theory, a leading-tone (called the leading-note outside the US) is a note or pitch which resolves or "leads" to a note one semitone higher or lower, being a lower and upper leading-tone, respectively.

Generally, the leading tone is the seventh tonal degree of the diatonic scale leading up to the tonic

VOICE LEADING

In music, voice leading is the relationship between the successive pitches of simultaneous moving parts or voices. For example, when moving from a root position C triad or chord played C–E–G to a 6/4 chord over the same bass (C–F–A), one might say that the middle "voice" rises from E to F while the top "voice" rises from G to A, this being a way to "lead" those voices. Instead of considering the two successive chords vertically as separate, one focuses primarily on the "horizontal" (temporal or linear) continuity between notes, though the concept applies to homophonic as well as polyphonic musics. When focusing on horizontal continuity, parallel motion between octaves, fifths, or unison is not allowed. However, popular and jazz music, which focuses more on vertical progression commonly uses parallel octaves. Concern for voice-leading often means a predominance of stepwise motion and may assist or replace diatonic functionality.

----------------
EDIT[/b]: Mike A, I'm apparently using this informally, not following the terminology in Classical Music Theory, which I wasn't actually referring to (vii degree). I was just using 'leading' as an adjective, which was the 1st description in Wiki. I don't want to suggest the proper noun "Leading Tone". To avoid confusion, let me just use an alternate terminology of 'approach note' for the Bass line and for the 7th 'leading' to 3rd, I'll refer to that as 7th resolving to the 3rd.

I hope that this will satisfy the 'Theory Police' \:D \:D
Posted by: ChatNoir

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/11/08 08:54 PM

Ok, all you experts. How many of you know the VERSE to this lovely song? Les Feuilles Mortes:

Oh ! je voudrais tant que tu te souviennes Des jours heureux quand nous étions amis. En ce temps-là la vie était plus belle, Et le soleil plus brûlant qu'aujourd'hui...............

This is the song I regale audiences with when I take over the piano bar anywhere. And believe me, when you do it in French, nobody cares whether you know how to play or not.
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/12/08 01:55 AM

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=-lTaSozn5RI

Hi, I just recorded Autumn leaves with video and I uploaded on youtube. I used a accompaniement of bass and drum. I added a little extra, when I play Em7 I follow with Em6, it sounds nice.

Serge
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/12/08 02:41 AM

You've been working hard Serge! Congratulations on a perfect execution. Is this your recital piece now \:\)

Some advice to bring some swing in.... To start with, play your quarter notes short. Only the quarter notes. This will have an immediate effect. Then later listen to variations of the melody made by Jeff Bauer and myself and see where you might change a quarter note to an eight note. Jeff and I both made the 1st note an eight note.

You're making solid progress Serge. We're all proud of you.
Posted by: mahlzeit

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/12/08 05:10 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by ChatNoir:
Ok, all you experts. How many of you know the VERSE to this lovely song? Les Feuilles Mortes:[/b]
Yeah but we're not playing Les Feuilles Mortes, this group is about Autumn Leaves. ;\)
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/12/08 10:14 AM

Very nice Serge. The Em6 works well with the style you're doing. I also like your timing in the section where the chords change within the measures. That always gives me trouble, especially now that I'm trying to improv over it.

On the topic of Les Feuilles Mortes, I dunno. The Dead Leaves sort of kills the mood for me. I like the English translation. \:\)
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/12/08 05:38 PM

Well, I've been working on that walking bass two days straight now..hope I hit all the leading tones (or most of them at least). \:D

http://www.box.net/shared/di0vcj1cgc
Posted by: rintincop

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/12/08 09:07 PM

Good job, Elssa. You can detach those quarter notes a little in the melody so they bounce a little more jazzily, continue to slur and accent your pickup eighth note in the melody.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 12:15 AM

 Quote:
You can detach those quarter notes a little
Thank you very much rintincop for your nice comments..Yes, I can see now how the quarter notes would sound better more bouncy/crispy (as opposed to fuzzy) especially in this jazz arrangement. I will try that out along with your other good suggestions. \:\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 12:34 AM

RH Phrasing in Jazz[/b]

I think that the issue of how to phrase is common to everyone now so let's emphasize the points once again.

Part of the purpose of swing is to remove the stiffness in the sound and relax the feel. So this can be used to varying degrees even in a non-jazz tune so these suggestions apply even when playing slow.

1. Eighth Notes are Legato/Slurred. Accent on Upbeats. Except for the last eighth note followed by a rest. This is played short.

2. Quarter notes are played short, or detached. Basically if there's a series of quarter notes, there should be a short rest in between each one. Bouncy Feel is exactly what I would use to describe it.

3. Half and Whole notes are played at full value with no alteration.

4. Sixteenth notes are not swung. They are played evenly and with no accent (at Medium swing tempo).

So as you can see, you really have to only look at Eighth Notes and Quarter Notes and phrasing them. When reading a leadsheet, these are assumed in Jazz and not written into the music. Even when using Serge's leadsheet, you can almost pre-write these rules on it. I did at the beginning of my studies. I marked which ones I should play short or slurred.


LH Phrasing[/b]

When playing quarter bass notes on the LH, these are always slurred/legato. No swing applied. Accent beat 2 and 4. The reason for this is that you are emulating the bass player.
Posted by: rintincop

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 12:57 AM

.
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 01:01 AM

Elssa, That was great! I'm completely blown away by how fast the people on this forum are progressing. While I enjoyed your earlier "cocktail" version, this new one has a crisper, professional sound that I think is much more appealing. Thanks for posting. You're setting a good example for where I hope to be in, oh, five or ten years! \:\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 01:40 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rintincop:
"You do not accent 2 and 4 in walking jazz bass, although some people mistakenly think you do in order to get the "groove" going....the drummer does the 2 and 4 accent and the bass player has to have his great time sense really correct and play slightly on top of the beat (not rushing, but on the upside of the beat, rather than dead in the middle for playing jazz -- we used to call it the "Ray Brown Edge"...Ray is right, that's where you play and he does NOT accent 2 and 4 at all."

Carol Kaye

However, jazz pianist Dave McKenna does frequently accent the 2 and the 4 in his walking bass, sometimes just the 2. And in some measures he doesn't accent any of the bass notes. I guess he varies it depending on how hard he wants to groove. It's "groovy" to accent 2 or 4 occasionally but it's not necessary to constantly accent 2 and 4. [/b]
I agree with you Ritincop. I don't always accent 2 and 4, although I was specifically taught to do that. I think good taste would dictate when it applies.

We haven't discussed Latin/Bossa here even which is not accented at all.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 01:47 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Elssa:
Well, I've been working on that walking bass two days straight now..hope I hit all the leading tones (or most of them at least). \:D

http://www.box.net/shared/di0vcj1cgc [/b]
Very nice Elssa, with a little bit of improvisation even!

Some things to watch, in addition to what Ritincop said. I liked your walking bass. The note selection was perfect. Now if you listen to it as you changed chords, the walking bass did not slur to the next chord. Be careful with that. I think the reason for that is probably a fingering issue. Think carefully about how you're going to finger the bass lines to connect from chord to chord.

I'm going to add some more to these comments in a moment as I listen to your melody more. You're more advanced so we can probably set a higher standard for you to reach. \:D

EDIT - I think Ritincop was right on. The significant issue is the quarter note and accenting the 1st eighth note. I would mark up on the music how you phrase the melody (since most of us don't follow the music exactly), but specifically check the phrasing rules to see if you're using eighth notes and where it lands on the beat, as well as when to detach the quarter notes.

In my early jazz studies, I would be given sheet music of jazz lines and I had to interpret the phrasing which is never written in. It has to come automatically. Now I don't even think of these issues as it's ingrained in me.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 01:55 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:
Elssa, That was great! I'm completely blown away by how fast the people on this forum are progressing. While I enjoyed your earlier "cocktail" version, this new one has a crisper, professional sound that I think is much more appealing. Thanks for posting. You're setting a good example for where I hope to be in, oh, five or ten years! \:\) [/b]
This is a piece of cake for you bluekeys. This is within short term reach.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 01:59 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Serge88:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=-lTaSozn5RI

Hi, I just recorded Autumn leaves with video and I uploaded on youtube. I used a accompaniement of bass and drum. I added a little extra, when I play Em7 I follow with Em6, it sounds nice.

Serge [/b]
I was wondering, Serge, how did you figure out that you could substitute and Em6 in there? Was that just trial and error? That is actually quite a valid substution when the Em7 is a tonic chord, which it is in this instance.

When we get to an advanced level on this tune much later on, it would be fun to play with various substitutions on Autumn Leaves. I normally do a lot of substutitions when I play this myself.
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 06:24 AM

Ellsa, bravo! What an inspiration to us all.
Posted by: Steve W

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 10:19 AM

Here's a basic question:

Is there a convention in jazz lingo to refer to eighth notes as "eight" notes? It looks like sixteenth notes are referred to by that name - is there a rationale for the eighth/eight switcheroo?
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 11:31 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve W:
Here's a basic question:

Is there a convention in jazz lingo to refer to eighth notes as "eight" notes? It looks like sixteenth notes are referred to by that name - is there a rationale for the eighth/eight switcheroo? [/b]
Yes, there's just a convention for bad English \:D Thanks for catching. I was getting dyslexic looking at them probably. ;\)
Posted by: Woody-Woodruff

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 04:45 PM

Jazzwee:

Fantastic Thread!!! I logged onto the forums for the first time yesterday so I got a late start. I hope you don't mind if I back you up a bit. I'm on the second lesson (playing the 3rds) and I have a bit of a problem with playing the melody while hitting the 1/7/3. Am I doing something wrong? Do I need to drop down an octive?
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 05:17 PM

Hi Woody, the 3rd playing is not with the melody. That's instead of the melody and is a practice to get used to doing a solo.

For melody playing, just use 1/7. And also in a later lesson, you can insert the 5 as in 1/5/7.

What you are referring to as 1/7/3 is playing in tenths which I discussed later (1/10) and is difficult to do unless you have ultra-large hands. I would save that for later when you've mastered everything else.

Have fun!
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 05:29 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
I was wondering, Serge, how did you figure out that you could substitute and Em6 in there? Was that just trial and error? That is actually quite a valid substution when the Em7 is a tonic chord, which it is in this instance.

When we get to an advanced level on this tune much later on, it would be fun to play with various substitutions on Autumn Leaves. I normally do a lot of substutitions when I play this myself. [/b]
I found a version where at the last two bar it's Em7 follow by Em6. I tried that on the left hand (going from 1/7 to 1/6 was easy), it was nice so I decided to change every Em7 chord by Em7 on beat 1 and Em6 on beat 3.

Serge
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 05:35 PM

It always works to turn a Im7 into a Im6 if the progression is IIm7b5-V7b9-Im7. Just note that it doesn't work on a minor functioning as a ii chord (like Am7 in AL), or iii chord.

You're pretty sharp to notice this. You can also play Em6 completely and skip the Em7.
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 05:36 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Hi Woody, the 3rd playing is not with the melody. That's instead of the melody and is a practice to get used to doing a solo.

Have fun! [/b]
Really ??? I thought we were supposed to practice 1/7 left hand and 3rd + the melody with the right hand.

Why did you choose Autumn leaves if we don't play the melody ?

Serge
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 05:50 PM

The standard thing I was teaching was to play 1/7 in LH and Melody in the RH. That's the starting point. As I said at the beginning, if you took a fresh song out of a leadsheet like 'As Time Goes By' or 'Somewhere Over the Rainbow' or 'Misty', this approach is used to get a good understanding of the tune. It is something I myself do all the time.

Now beyond that is now to thicken the harmony and inner voices so later on in the lessons, we discussed using 1/7 or 1/3, and even later than that we discussed 1/5/7.

As a separate discussion I discussed practicing doing a 3rd on the RH as a solo exercise. Not connected to the melody.

Sometimes the 3rd is the melody. Sometimes the 3rd is in the way or above the melody so you can't always play it on the RH (in which case you play it on the LH and the 7th is played on the RH instead). If you can play the 3rd while the melody is higher up it's a good thing because we'll be talking about that later. However, I wasn't specifically asking everyone to do this since it doesn't always work.

I'm trying to introduce everyone to the improvisation side and thus I was giving everyone the exercise of listening to the 3rd on the RH. And that can become a 'home base' sound for a solo.

Jazz is played as:
1. Head (Melody)
2. Solo
3. Repeat Head.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 06:02 PM

Serge, I still need to do a separate lesson discussing additional inner voices on RH and LH, both when playing the melody and just comping.

I haven't explained that yet because I wanted to make sure everyone knew what the extension references were (9,11,13, etc.) which I did a few days ago.
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 06:45 PM

Ok thanks,

by the way I ordered P.Degreg Keyboard Jazz harmony. It looks like a good book on voicing and practicing jazz chords.

Serge
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 07:21 PM

Excellent Serge. Do you have the book 'Metaphors for the Musician'? I recommend that too. Especially useful is the solo piano/comping discussion which is clearly stated.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 07:29 PM

Especially useful is the solo piano/comping discussion which is clearly stated.[/b]

Thanks again all. \:\) This is such a great site/thread for learning and inspiration! \:\) My main bugaboo now is still the soloing, but I'm going to check out everything listed on that here again and I'm sure eventually I'll "get it" (might take a while though). \:D
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/13/08 11:53 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Excellent Serge. Do you have the book 'Metaphors for the Musician'? I recommend that too. Especially useful is the solo piano/comping discussion which is clearly stated. [/b]
No but I'll write that on my list.

Serge
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/14/08 12:01 AM

.
Posted by: Woody-Woodruff

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/14/08 05:59 AM

Jazzwee,

Thanks, the lightbulb finally clicked on for me!! In your lesson, you never did say to put the melody with the thirds I just wasn't paying attention. Your building off the 1/7 so that it creates another layer of sound independant of the melody.
Posted by: westarm

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/14/08 09:26 AM

a quick question on terminology if i may.

this chord in AL: F#m7b5

can it also be designated as an Fdim7?

thanks.
Posted by: mahlzeit

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/14/08 09:40 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by westarm:
this chord in AL: F#m7b5

can it also be designated as an Fdim7? [/b]
No. F#m7b5 may be called F# "half-dim" 7.

F#m7b5 is: F# A C E
Fdim7 is: F Ab B D

(I used enharmonic spelling here.)
Posted by: westarm

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/14/08 10:10 AM

mahlzeit, i noticed i made a typing error...i had meant to ask if F#m7b5 was F#dim7, not Fdim7, but you caught that.

thanks for replying and i will do my homework to figure out why it is half-dim. (kinda like my brain.... \:\) )
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/14/08 02:07 PM

So - is a "half-dim" chord one with a major third stacked on three minor thirds? This would produce only one tritone, the root plus it's flatted 5th, whereas a normal diminished 7th has two tritones? Hence the name half-dim?
Posted by: mahlzeit

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/14/08 02:20 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
So - is a "half-dim" chord one with a major third stacked on three minor thirds?[/b]
Yes. It's a dim7 chord with the 7th lowered one additional half-step. Or you can view it as a minor-7 chord with the 5th lowered, hence the notation m7b5.

EDIT: Ha, of course I meant a dim7 chord with the 7th RAISED one additional half-step.

Cdim7: C Eb Gb Bbb
Cm7b5: C Eb Gb Bb

Spot the difference. \:\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/14/08 10:52 PM

Lesson 6
Solo Piano 2 + 3 Voicings

This is now a lesson to make the chords sound fuller, in solo piano style. You can play like this in a ballad form, or you can 'comp' these chords to a soloist. You can switch from playing these two handed chords and then playing the melody on the RH, or you can skip the highest note in the voicing and play the melody on the pinky.

The key to these voicings is to understand the specific intervals of each chord. I will list the chords and the specific notes fall under certain intervals which concern us. Use this for later reference.

Am7
Root = A
b7 = G
b3 = C
5 = E
9 = B

D7
Root = D
3 = F#

GMaj7
Root = G
7 = F#
3 = B
5 = D
9 = A

CMaj7
Root = C
3 = E

F#m7b5
Root = F#
b7 = E
b3 = A
b5 = C
9 = G#

B7b9
Root = B
b7 = C
b13 = G

Em7
Root = E
b7 = D
b3 = G
5 = B
9 = F#


The key to this 2 + 3 kind of voicing is to start the use of "extensions" to chords which start to give it a jazzy sound. Also, to make use of voice leading which also results in less hand movement. Again this is for comping or ballad playing. It is not used for soloing since in a solo, the LH needs to stay away from the RH.

In principle, the idea is that in ii-V progressions, only the LH moves. The RH stays put. The I chord is just a whole step move down of the entire RH.

In a minor ii-V, the RH moves only the last note and mostly the LH moves.

Here are the voicing examples below:

ii Chord (Am7)
LH 1 b7 RH b3 5 9
LH A G RH C E B

V chord (D7)
LH 1 3 RH does not move from above position.
(So the RH will actually be on the b7 9 13 of the new chord.)
LH D F# RH C E B

I chord (GMaj7)
LH 1 7 RH 3 5 9
LH G F# RH B D A

IV chord (CMaj7)
LH 1 3 RH 7 9 6
LH C E RH B D A

ii Chord (F#m7b5)
LH 1 7 RH b3 b5 9
LH F# E RH A C G#

V Chord (B7b9)
LH 1 3 RH same as above except move highest note down a half step to G.
LH B Eb RH A C G

i Chord (Em7)
LH 1 7 RH b3 5 9
LH E D RH G B F#

The key to generally applying this is to understand each interval of a chord.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/14/08 11:11 PM

Look carefully the above lesson. This is a specific voicing lesson in solo piano that takes advantage of voice leading. This allows us to play a full voicing with less hand movement.

Actually play the example, especially a ii-V sequence and your eyes will widen with the discovery just like I did when I as taught this.

This is not from a book.

Add the Melody[/b]

Now how does one apply these voicings to playing Autumn Leaves with melody in the RH?

Just like most tunes, the above voicing cannot be played as shown when you are playing the melody on the RH.

The rule is: THE MELODY MUST BE THE TOP NOTE.

When playing with a full harmony like this, the melody is often played by fingers 4 and 5.

So the above voicings can be used when there is a hole in the melody (the voicing can be filler comping), or you have to modify the voicing to eliminate the duplicates to the melody note.

Sometimes a particular melody note is too low in the keyboard. In which case, think about adding an extra inner voice on the LH instead of the RH. In other words you may need to play a 3 + 1 voicing instead of a 2 + 2, or 2 + 3 (note that this translates to 'LH notes' + 'RH notes', so 2 + 2 means each hand plays 2 notes of the harmony).

In general, in a 1/7 voicing you can safely add the 5th of the chord. A 3rd cannot be added when on roots below middle C as the voicing will sound muddy.

There are instances when you are playing the melody on the RH that you want all the chord tones to be on on the LH. This is where you can do a 3 + Melody voicing. No chord tones on the RH. In solo piano style, the 3 notes will typically be 1/5/7, 1/3/5, or 1/3/7 depending on the register. I do this quite frequently and often I focus on adding an occasional 9 to the RH. The advantage of this form is that the RH is free to improvise and you have more finger freedom (instead of being limited to fingers 4 and 5).

Given a choice, I believe that additional chord tones are best played above the 7th in the 1/7 voicings but this is not always possible.

These are solo piano voicings. Later on we will be discussing 'Rootless voicings' for combo style playing and occasionally for solo piano playing as well.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/14/08 11:24 PM

Re: Confusion about 3rds on the RH/Also about Solos[/b]
In response to Woody's and Serge's post above, I hope the above lesson clarifies my intention on the 3rds on the RH. It is not my original plan to require that one play 3rds with the melody note since, as you can see the extra harmony notes to be played can vary from 3,5,7,9.

For those of you attempting to solo, I hope you are in fact practicing to play a single solo note on each chord and I hope that note is a 3rd \:\) . Then maybe you can progress to sounding two notes on each chord, again one of them being a 3rd. And then later, perhaps playing 4 notes per chord with one of them being a 3rd.

Now once the harmony is ingrained in your brain (this takes awhile, maybe a few weeks), you can FORGET I ever mentioned playing a 3rd in the RH in a solo. Play whatever you want.

I guarantee that if every beginning soloist included a 3rd in their beginning solos, and just play a few notes at a time with lots of rests, the solo will sound coherent.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/15/08 01:02 AM

Just catching up here after a few days of distractions. So, I've been trying to work in solo practice to my routine. Noodling.

The hint of focusing on the 3rd has really added something to my improv that was sorely lacking. Not that it has improved all that much, but a definite difference. When I start trying to improvise, the LH kinda falls apart. Forgets where it's supposed to be going. I have to constantly remind it, "hey, you're supposed to be changing chords over there." It's getting better though. The AL changes are so ingrained at this point that its almost autopilot.

One thing though, the B7b9 chord. I tend to run into a lot of dissonance there for some reason. I've started trying to stay diatonic at this point instead of heading for the 3rd (D#) or trying to play "vertically". Am I doing something wrong?
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/15/08 01:30 AM

Hi Deeluk, since you already know that D# is a valid note in the chord and in fact minor ii-V-I's have to be played vertically for the most part, I would just go for it and forget the artificial diatonic limitation. Otherwise, you'll have to demphasize the notes that are dissonant to you (e.g. Bb, D, E).

For now, when in doubt, favor the chord tones (1,3,5,7 of the chord).

Since your question is now getting more sophisticated, perhaps it is soon time to have a lesson on scales for soloing.
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/15/08 10:45 AM

Jazzwee, need more guidance on lesson 6 (2+3 voicing)with regards F#m7b5 & B7b9 sequence please.

Firstly, I would have expected RH to be A (b3), C (b5) G# (9) for F#m7b5 & perhaps the same notes for B7b9, in this case being the (b7), (b9) & (13).

Why was the b13 & not the 13th introduced for B7b9?

I'm simply trying to learn, where I have gone wrong in my understanding & scale interval calculations!

Thanks for all your efforts.

David
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/15/08 12:17 PM

Kangamangusuk, it's a typo. You are correct. Thanks.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/15/08 12:47 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Kangamangusuk:

Why was the b13 & not the 13th introduced for B7b9?
[/b]
This is a good question. In this particular voicing, when a dominant 7 has b9,#9, and b13, it's been converted to an ALT. So this voicing is actually playing B7 Alt by moving G# down to G, which actually keeps us more diatonic to the G scale for B7b9.

I find that sometimes that that same G (b9 of F#m7b5), may also fit with the melody of some tunes and there's a lot of debate about what sounds good with this chord, a b9 or a 9 (there's a section on Mark Levine's book with this same discussion).

My teacher taught me to do it this way. So who am I to argue \:D
Posted by: Woody-Woodruff

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/15/08 01:04 PM

Jazzwee,
I'm still working on Lesson #2 but I have been staying up with the actual thread itself. I've breezed through (and back-burnered) Lessons #3, #4 & #5 thinking they were for rounding everything out later. I did, however, understood what you were explaining. Lesson #6 is a different story completely. I hope I'm lost because of something I didn't pick up on completely in the previous lessons. I'm ok with the progressions (as a back-up not solo) through the CMaj7 chord. Why a 6th with it followed by a 9th with the F#m7b5? Did I miss some logic?
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/15/08 01:21 PM

Woody, the F#m7b5 (after correcting the typo), should be the b3, the b5 (not 6), and the 9.

Maybe I'm not understanding your question so ask again if this doesn't answer it.
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/15/08 01:24 PM

Thanks Jazzwee for your answers. Actually, I like the sound of the b13 in this progression.
Posted by: Woody-Woodruff

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/15/08 02:02 PM

Jazzwee,
I should have said up to the CMaj7 Chord. Sorry for the confusion. My misunderstanding is where an A (6th) is used as the top note when a G (5th) or B (7th) could have been used. The Melody is carriing a B at this time. I also have the same misunderstanding with the G# (9th) as the top note for the following F#m7b5 chord when the melody has an A. The 7# (8th whole) would be much sweeter to my ears. IF we are running these chords for back-up should they blend?
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/15/08 04:20 PM

OK. I get your question. When the GMaj7 is turned into CMaj7, the A (13 or 6) is the upper voicing, and is this good or bad.

The answer is that it is VERY GOOD. And 13 on major chords is a regular voicing choice in jazz.

I haven't explained the voicing choices yet. For each chord quality there are voicing choices in jazz that are pretty well accepted and you can blame jazz pianist Bill Evans for coming up with a lot of them.

In almost all chords, the 9 is added. It is not added to Diminished chords, but it is to Half dimninished chords.

In major chords, you never add the 11 and you can add 9,13, #11.

In Dominant 7 chords, you can add ANYTHING and EVERYTHING but the kitchen sink. This is where you really learn about alterations and voicings.

In minor 7 chords (non-tonic) you can only add the 9. If it's a tonic minor you can add the 13 (6). You can also play the 11th instead of the 3rd for an ambiguous sound.

I'll be expanding on this later but this voicing lesson in Lesson 6 is the beginning of the Jazzy sound. It's what many of you have been waiting for. When we get to rootless voicings, it will be the jazziest (and to some, most dissonant \:D ).
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/15/08 10:49 PM

Lesson 6 is very interesting, my brain understand it but not my hands. I'm still practicing Autumn leaves with simple voicing 2 + 1 + melody, I'm trying to add variation to the melody.

When I can play it in my sleep I will add more voicing.

Serge
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/16/08 01:21 AM

Very interesting comment Serge.

Let me just give some general advice to everyone with similar problems. In reality, it is easy to practice 3,5,9 voicing on the RH just by memorizing it in all 12 keys. The spans of intervals are consistent.

So, at my level, I don't even have to think about doing a 3,5,9 on the RH. I just reproduce the shape.

This the same reason we stuck to 1/7's on the LH a lot. 1/7 is easily practiced in all keys. When you know it once, you can apply it to any chord. The hand shape for 1/5/7 on the LH is also predictable.

So for those of you having problems with all these, I recommend daily practice of these intervals in LH and RH. It won't take long before it's natural. If you can do 2 + 3 voicings in your sleep, you can accompany a soloist with little advanced preparation and it sounds good with full voicing.

From the skills you learn in Autumn Leaves, you will have no problems playing a more complex tune like All the Things that You Are, for example. The methodology is exactly the same.
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/16/08 09:17 AM

I just love the sound of the F#m7b5-B7b9-Em7 sequence as 1,7/3 + 3,5,9 - it's so - jazzy \:\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/16/08 04:49 PM

LaValse, you ain't seen nothin' yet \:D

Wait till you hear the rootless voicings, or substitutions. This is what jazz is about.

Have you ever listened to Bill Evans? He's the master of most of these voicings and it's now down to a science because of him.
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/16/08 04:52 PM

"In Dominant 7 chords, you can add ANYTHING and EVERYTHING but the kitchen sink." - JazzWee

- Do you mean this literally, or diatonically?

"my brain understands it but not my hands" - Serge

- We must be twins!

"Let me just give some general advice to everyone with similar problems. In reality, it is easy to practice 3,5,9 voicing on the RH just by memorizing it in all 12 keys. The spans of intervals are consistent." - Jazzwee

Jazzwee - Thanks for pointing this out. I gave up out of frustration last night. I think that I was starting to "feel" it, but subconciously rejecting the idea because it seemed to simple. Like Serge said so well, my brain could analyze and understand, but I could't see how I was ever going to get it under my hand. Your last post gets the spotlight on my music stand tonight! Thanks.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/16/08 05:05 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
"In Dominant 7 chords, you can add ANYTHING and EVERYTHING but the kitchen sink." - JazzWee

- Do you mean this literally, or diatonically?

[/b]
I mean this quite literally. This is really the crux of jazz voicings and really understanding what you can do. If you guys can last through the whole stretch of this, you will be amazed how different Autumn Leaves can sound harmonically speaking. I have to go through this slowly though as I don't want to overwhelm.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/16/08 05:12 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
Jazzwee - Thanks for pointing this out. I gave up out of frustration last night. I think that I was starting to "feel" it, but subconciously rejecting the idea because it seemed to simple. Like Serge said so well, my brain could analyze and understand, but I could't see how I was ever going to get it under my hand. Your last post gets the spotlight on my music stand tonight! Thanks. [/b]
I'm hoping that everyone looks at Autumn Leaves as a general exercise. Everything we're doing is not specific to this tune. There are in fact some technical skills to develop for this automatic moves to become apparent. And they do take a little time so don't be discouraged.

This is one of the reasons I wanted everyone to stick to 1/7 shell voicings and not be focused on switching to 1/7,1/3 because you have to get used to the interval. It needs to be as automatic as an Octave.

Of course you all know there are two varieties of 1/7 that have to be practiced (1/7, 1/b7) just as there two sets of 3/5/9 to practice (b3,5,9 and 3,5,9 -- excluding half diminished).

If you get this down, you don't even realize what you can do. I've empowered all of you to go to the Real Book and play ANYTHING. This is the beginning of the release from the holds of sheet music. Combined with improvisation, that's music power, man.
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/16/08 05:36 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Have you ever listened to Bill Evans? He's the master of most of these voicings and it's now down to a science because of him. [/b]
As it happens, I've been listening to Conversations With Myself recently...
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/16/08 05:58 PM

Whew . . this thread is incredible! I've been stuck in gig-tour land and not been able to keep up with the posts. Listen all . . . Jazzwee has indeed empowered you all! I salute his sheer "let's get down to the bottom of it all".

For those of you coming from a classical background; all this is in Bach . . and quite a lot of Mozart too! Not to forget Chopin.

As for listening tips: Bill Evans absolutely, and I highly recommend The Keith Jarrett Standard Trio. There's tons off videos on YouTube (of both).
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/17/08 05:06 AM

I was thinking about 1,7 + 3,5,9 in bed last night :rolleyes: and realised that if you play a Maj, Min, Half-Dim (m7b5) sequence you're gradually playing more and more notes of the next Maj one half step lower so you can make an exercise of it, esp since the last new note is the 5th of the next Maj...

Down and then back up the keyboard. I know the goal is to know these things randomly and instantaneously but perhaps it's OK to start with an exercise like this, maybe saying the chords aloud...?

Edit: Ooo and a dom (starting on the root rather than in the key of the root) squeezes inbetween the maj and the min...

C: 1 7 3 5 9 !maj
C: 1 b7[/b] 3 5 9 !dom
C: 1 b7 b3[/b] 5 9 !min
C: 1 b7 b3 b5[/b] 9 !hdim - then both pinkies down one half step to...
B: 1 7 3 5 9 !maj - etc
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/17/08 07:26 AM

Inspired by you all I've made a little exercise for learning how to play with shell chords in LH + RH.
Also to practice keeping the 5th finger on the top melody note (no melody in this version, I recommend that you sing the melody).
I've just done the chords of the first verse, the rest is up to you.
Hope you find this helpful.
here\'s the pdf
here\'s an exported (from Finale) midi

links are working now . . . space is definitely important!!
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/17/08 10:25 AM

and a couple of you requested: the comp exercise for the whole AL

bear in mind: let the rhythm swing, don't read it exactly as written, always feel the beat internally. always sing the melody aloud! in fact always do that. practice to sing the melody, and it'll help you in singing your solo with your playing.
singing along with your solo will aid you in keeping it from going on and on and on and . . . as we pianists tend to do, we don't have to catch our breath (guitarists are also prone to nevertakingabreak).
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/17/08 12:06 PM

Here's a couple of bars with the 2-and moved 2 quarter notes. As an example of utilizing shell chords with melody.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/17/08 12:11 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LaValse:
I was thinking about 1,7 + 3,5,9 in bed last night :rolleyes: and realised that if you play a Maj, Min, Half-Dim (m7b5) sequence you're gradually playing more and more notes of the next Maj one half step lower so you can make an exercise of it, esp since the last new note is the 5th of the next Maj...

Down and then back up the keyboard. I know the goal is to know these things randomly and instantaneously but perhaps it's OK to start with an exercise like this, maybe saying the chords aloud...?

Edit: Ooo and a dom (starting on the root rather than in the key of the root) squeezes inbetween the maj and the min...

C: 1 7 3 5 9 !maj
C: 1 b7[/b] 3 5 9 !dom
C: 1 b7 b3[/b] 5 9 !min
C: 1 b7 b3 b5[/b] 9 !hdim - then both pinkies down one half step to...
B: 1 7 3 5 9 !maj - etc [/b]
LaValse, whatever works for you. This method sounds great to me.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/17/08 12:13 PM

Hi Chris, while you're on Finale, maybe you can post a walking bass example of AL. Hard to explain with letters instead of a Music Staff because of the up and down motion.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/17/08 12:52 PM

Ok.


Here's the first verse (with 2 variations) as: pdf
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/17/08 02:13 PM

Thanks, Chris. I need to get back into AL this week (so Jazzwee doesn't sick his goons on me) and I was planning to work on the walking bass some. This will be very helpful. \:\)
Posted by: Woody-Woodruff

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/17/08 05:28 PM

Thanks from me also, Chris. For me, it's a lot easier understanding the notes when they are in Music format.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/17/08 06:16 PM

Thanks.
Remember it's always possible to go the other way:


Here's, yet again, the first verse pdf
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/17/08 07:31 PM

Thanks Chris!
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/18/08 11:00 AM

jazzwee - I recently stumbled across this thread --- and what a thread it is!!!! I am amazed at what you are doing here.

I am being sucked into the jazz world in a very big way. I went straight to You Tube and began listening to a few of the pros play AL. I fell in love with Keith Jarrett's rendition. I started to transcribe what I heard.

The link below is a midi file. I am playing along with Band in a Box. I am playing the melody and left hand accompaniment.

Am I on the right track? (Sorry I didn't do it in the key of G. Jarrett is playing in Bb.)

http://www.box.net/shared/njn60o6g4o

Thanks so much for listening.

Barb
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/18/08 12:21 PM

Wow Barb, that's almost an exact transcription of Jarret. I remember his version well. You did a great job there! You're on your way to great jazz playing.

If you have an ear for transcription, you should make a project of transcribing the whole thing. You'd learn a lot.

BTW - There are some corrections that you need to make there, mostly related to the length of the notes and the swing feel that I want you to pay attention to when re-listening.

If you count while you listen to Jarrett, you'll see that he's playing an uptempo version and the melody is being played as quarter notes. Quarter notes are played shorter than full value, which I see you correctly detected. But they are not eighth notes which is what it sounded like in your recording so lengthen them a tad. They should be quarter notes but with a noticeable rest (maybe a 16th rest) from note to note. This is what gives it that swing feel.

After you read our long discussion on swing and phrasing you'll have a good sense of the issues. Then listen over and over again to see if you can recognize what his phrasing is about. BTW notice that Jarrett's accents are subtle and he plays straigher eighths but the swing is still there and it is there even with the melody.

Even from just studying his melody there will be so much subtlety to learn.

Your method of learning (listening to the masters), is the most sophisticated way of learning because you'll be picking up these little things that we can describe in words only so far.

On the left hand comping, read the comments regarding the Charleston Rhythm, and also Chris Bell's music examples of LH comping. This is to make the LH swing. You might want to also compare against the timing of Jarret's LH comping which are not timed exactly to the beats. There's a triplet feel to it that comes from the Charleston. Remember that his version is very fast so it's harder to get a sense of this.

I love Jarretts version of AL. I have this whole concert on DVD.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/18/08 12:48 PM

Thank you, jazzwee. Since I do enjoy transcribing, I plan on tackling as much as possible of his version.

I appreciate all of your suggestions and will be working on that Jarrett "swing" feel.

Keep up the great job you are doing here!

Barb
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/18/08 03:37 PM

Ok you swingin'. hep cats . . .
here's some weekend fun for you all.
2 tracks for your exercising.
Autumn Leaves of course . . .
Walkin bass and walkin bass w drums
mp3 as well as midi. mp3 is at 150 bpm. midi is at 120 but of course changeable.
Walkin bass mp3
walkin bass midi
walkin bass + drums mp3
walkin bass + drums midi

And for those of you who want to figure out what the bass is doing (and don't have access to a score app) here\'s a pdf of the bass line.
remember that all 8th notes should be played as triplets (see the third bar)
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/18/08 09:10 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:

I'm trying to introduce everyone to the improvisation side and thus I was giving everyone the exercise of listening to the 3rd on the RH. And that can become a 'home base' sound for a solo.

Jazz is played as:
1. Head (Melody)
2. Solo
3. Repeat Head. [/b]
http://www.box.net/shared/10lfreio0c

Here's another recording, I played melody, variation and melody. I can't improvise but I add little variation to the melody.

The end is interesting because at hit the wrong note and got lost, I didn't want to do another recording so I played a few note at random and finish with Em.

Any comments to improve myself is appreciated.


Serge
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/18/08 09:15 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:

The link below is a midi file. I am playing along with Band in a Box. I am playing the melody and left hand accompaniment.

Am I on the right track? (Sorry I didn't do it in the key of G. Jarrett is playing in Bb.)

http://www.box.net/shared/njn60o6g4o

Thanks so much for listening.

Barb [/b]
That is really good but I want more, no wonder your nickname is Swingin' Barb !

Serge
Posted by: Van

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/18/08 10:23 PM

I turn away a few days and this thread is up to 17; sigh, I'm never going to catch up at this rate. Excellent work, Jazzwee, I can see myself coming back to this thread as reference for years to come!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/18/08 11:25 PM

Serge88, that's great! The harmony on LH + RH sounds fantastic. And I also notice that you changed the melody to a more swinging version.

Here's some improvement tips. Stick to this melody format because it swings better. Now accent the first eight note, and then cut the 2 following quarter notes down so they're not legato. I think you've heard me say this same tip to just about everyone now. In general, read the section on Jazz phrasing which summarizes this. Anyway, this should be easy to implement.

The next step to improvement is to do a Charleston Rhythm on the left hand. Use Chris Bell's comping example as that's the simplest. This will take more time so don't worry about not being able to do it yet. But do do it with a Metronome.

Combining a Charleston Rhythm with a swinging melody is like a puzzle so give it some time to get your brain acclimated. I just want to make sure you practice it. Once you can play a Charleston Rhythm on the LH, the LH will develop a mind of it's own and you'll be able to swing it even with different patterns. It's really getting to know the quarter note triplet feel on the LH.

I was most impressed with your improvisation in the middle. Call it melody variation. I call it improvisation. Don't be afraid to vary it more since you know how. I think you could even come up with an alternate melody in the middle.

Serge, you're working pretty hard here as I can sense continuous improvement. We haven't been doing this for that long yet. Congratulations on excellent work!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/18/08 11:35 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Van:
I turn away a few days and this thread is up to 17; sigh, I'm never going to catch up at this rate. Excellent work, Jazzwee, I can see myself coming back to this thread as reference for years to come! [/b]
Van, there's no deadline here. This is a long term thread. Several people just started. Start and continue at your own pace and I will be here to help when you get to an issue.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/18/08 11:37 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by chrisbell:
Ok you swingin'. hep cats . . .
here's some weekend fun for you all.
2 tracks for your exercising.
[/b]
Thanks for providing meat for this thread Chris!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/18/08 11:41 PM

Serge88, that's great! The harmony on LH + RH sounds fantastic. And I also notice that you changed the melody to a more swinging version.

Here's some improvement tips. Stick to this melody format because it swings better. Now accent the first eight note, and then cut the 2 following quarter notes down so they're not legato. I think you've heard me say this same tip to just about everyone now. In general, read the section on Jazz phrasing which summarizes this. Anyway, this should be easy to implement.

The next step to improvement is to do a Charleston Rhythm on the left hand. Use Chris Bell's comping example as that's the simplest. This will take more time so don't worry about not being able to do it yet. But do do it with a Metronome.

Combining a Charleston Rhythm with a swinging melody is like a puzzle so give it some time to get your brain acclimated. I just want to make sure you practice it. Once you can play a Charleston Rhythm on the LH, the LH will develop a mind of it's own and you'll be able to swing it even with different patterns. It's really getting to know the quarter note triplet feel on the LH.

I was most impressed with your improvisation in the middle. Call it melody variation. I call it improvisation. Don't be afraid to vary it more since you know how. I think you could even come up with an alternate melody in the middle.

Serge, you're working pretty hard here as I can sense continuous improvement. We haven't been doing this for that long yet. Congratulations on excellent work!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 12:53 AM

.
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 06:04 AM

Great stuff Serge!

You are clearly further along this wonderful road, than I am & I take my hat off to you.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 07:37 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Serge88:
That is really good but I want more, no wonder your nickname is Swingin' Barb !
Serge [/b]
Serge - I enjoyed your AL. You WERE improvising. Nice work!

Thanks for that extra push to transcribe more of Jarrett's solo. It takes lots of repeated listening, but is well worth the time spent.

Barb

ps I remember you from the Sudnow side. Isn't it great that we already know those color tone voicings!
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 09:25 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Van:
I turn away a few days and this thread is up to 17; sigh, I'm never going to catch up at this rate. Excellent work, Jazzwee, I can see myself coming back to this thread as reference for years to come! [/b]
I would also like to say to you - and to you others if you are worrying about - not catching up - not getting "it" in time - not being "good" enough - there's no finish line to this.
I've played piano since . . hmm well at least 40 years, with breaks. I've been and am a professional pianist; comping singers/actors/etc. I've had breaks in between doing others things (no playing at all for several years, then slowly bit by bit I picked up my playing from the floor where it had been laying for so long - and started to study the piano again at the ripe age of 49, changed my technique/hand position (still working at it), re-focused and actually started to learn to listen . . .
Playing music is a process that never stops, the trick is not giving up. And if you do . . then pick it up from the floor, dust it off and tickle johanna! (my mother is from east london :-)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 12:51 PM

Note Phrasing Issues[/b]

I just wanted to emphasize the note phrasing in Jazz that has been hard to communicate. It seems like it is a common thing that everyone needs to focus on.

There are many ways to play the AL melody as we've all seen here. If you listen to the way Jeff Bauer and I played the melody, we played the first four notes as:

STYLE 1:

Eighth (The) + Quarter (Fall-) + Quarter (ing) + Whole (Leaves)

In the original music it is played as

STYLE 2:

Quarter (The) + Quarter (Fall-) + Quarter (ing) + Whole (Leaves)

Whichever style you choose, one needs to examine the actual notes being played as jazz phrasing is very specific. Neither way is right or wrong as I've heard it played by the masters in both ways.

However, it is the phrasing that needs to be studied. Jazz is a lot about phrasing and proper phrasing will make it sound authentic. Listen to the way Jeff and I do STYLE 1.

Since the 1st eighth note is on an upbeat, it is accented and played legato up to the next quarter note.

The quarter notes themselves are cut short A LITTLE BIT. If you listen to the way I play it, it's very slight but that's what gives it the swing feel.

If you're going to use STYLE 2, make sure to play all the quarter notes a little short. By short, I mean there should be a little rest in between each one. One should hear that little space so lift up your fingers on notes 2 and 3, (or 1, 2, 3 for STYLE 2). BUT NOT TOO SHORT. Don't play an Eighth note and a rest. It should be quite a brief space.

Little things like this make a lot of difference.

There's a lot of quarter notes in this tune but if it were full of eighth notes, then we would be talking about accenting the offbeats and playing completely legato.

I want to be repetitive here to emphasize the point. For authentic jazz playing, including soloing, the handling of eighth notes and quarter notes need to be developed to an autopilot level.

Remember that this is not in the Sheet music. Phrasing is developed by listening. A prior teacher of mine had me play written jazz melodies for months to make sure I understood how to phrase it. The sheet music is written the regular way (swing, accents, phrasing is never written in). If it were the sheet music would be unreadable from the complexity.

This lesson mirrors that stage in my learning and one looks at sheet music/lead sheets differently after that (seeing hidden marks automatically).
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 02:04 PM

Any basic advice on pedalling?
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 02:20 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Remember that this is not in the Sheet music. Phrasing is developed by listening. . . . sheet music is written the regular way (swing, accents, phrasing is never written in). If it were the sheet music would be unreadable from the complexity.
Hear hear!
Also, listen to jazz, a lot. Watch and listen to the Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett versions on YouTube, not just once but again and again. Imitate, and don't worry, your own style come on it's own. If you take the time to study AL in depth (as you are all doing), your playing will bloom out (is that a correct English? sometimes my adopted language gets in the way) when playing other standards.
A soloing tip: sing. sing your solo to the bassline I've given you, yes by all means, feel silly and self conscience, I do, but do it. sing 4 bars, play 4 bars. You'll be suprised by the ideas that'll pop up!
Two words: Ella Fitzgerald.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 02:23 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
Any basic advice on pedalling? [/b]
An excellent question that I completely forgot about \:D Advice: Yes. Don't Pedal \:D

Unless you're playing a ballad solo piano section, stay away from the pedals.

Which means one has to be even more conscious of legato playing. There's a technique I discovered that might be interesting to share. I was listening to Kenny Werner play a tune that was very legato but no pedals. I wasn't exactly sure how he was doing that since he was frequently syncopating, and syncopating implies you have to lift your hands.

So what I found was a technique of alternating the sound between LH and RH in Solo piano. So for example, if one is syncopating the LH chords, the RH stays put with pure legato sound. When the RH is syncopating, the LH is playing whole notes. And to the listener, it sounds very full because there is never a break in the sound.

In legato playing, even if one note sounds, the mind is fooled into thinking a whole chord is playing legato.

So the focus in jazz playing is more on achieving a legato sound by technique rather than pedal. The harmonies are usually already complex with extensions so too much harmonic partials from the pedal will muddy it up

In summary, I use pedals a lot. But not when I swing.
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 02:29 PM

I found a great practice tool in my stack of music books. One of my jazz books has a CD with arpeggio excercises that cycle around the entire circle of fifths using the ii-V-1 progression at 108 bpm. I discovered that it makes a great backing track for practicing progressions in all the keys. It also helps me to get everything up to speed, including those chords that don't like me so much(namely Db and Gb), along with their nasty enharmonic twins.

I have found it to be much more productive than the metronome, and very rewarding to make it through the entire circle. (OK, I mean *almost* make it through the entire circle, but I'm getting there.)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 02:34 PM

I agree that's good practice KJ. It will pay off on a complex tune because these ii-V's could be 50% of most progressions in Jazz. I did that kind of exercise too.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 03:20 PM

An arpeggio exercise based on the cycle of 5ths, adapted for AL. Play RH only, LH chords. Play both hands together. Play swing 8ths (as indicated).
For those fingerly challenged and whom likes to practice; try to hold the 5 finger down, and move it only every 2nd bar (to keep the top note singing)
pdf
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 03:21 PM

Posted by: keystring

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 08:01 PM

Hi. Since attention was directed toward this thread this morning, I had to check it out. I'm totally a fish out of water. I'd like to lurk for a while and educate myself. I barely have clue about the chord symbols - what's the best way to get an idea about them. I have classical theory, note reading and my theory book has one optional page on "popular notation". I can't make heads or tails out of what I'm seeing. How do I go about it so I can even understand the explanations? Right now I'm looking at algebra. I'd like to begin by understanding the chord notation.
Posted by: gmm1

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 08:04 PM

Here's some beginning help....

http://psrtutorial.com/Resources/R_ChordSecrets/r_chordsecrets.html

http://chordmaps.com/chartmaps.htm

http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/index.html
Posted by: keystring

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 08:30 PM

Oh, those are good gmm1. And I'm relieved to see that there is a bit of a link to classical theory to orient me - I love the primer: hands-on learning.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 08:59 PM

Hi Keystring, knowledge of chords is not assumed in this thread. In all cases, the notes that are part of each chord are clearly stated.

In the beginning lesson, you are only playing two notes in the LH for each chord. Go through it slowly. No need to rush. And by all means ask questions even if it is about Lesson 1.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 11:14 PM

LESSON 7[/b]
Advanced - Rootless Chord Voicings - Combo Setting - Part 1[/b]

If this is intimidating to you, please proceed immediately to PART 3 where the specific application to Autumn Leaves is discussed. You can return to the background and theory at a later time.

Background[/b]
Now we get to the meat and potatoes of jazz Left Hand Comping. When there is a Rhythm section (Bass Player, Drums), the piano has the advantage of having the root of the chord be covered by the Bass Player. As you saw in the Walking Bass lesson, the Bass player will tend to outline the chord root on the 1st beat.

This means that the Piano player, does not need to duplicate that root and frees up a LH finger. It also means that the chord voicing can be done at a higher register since the purpose of doing a 1/7 in a solo piano setting is to fill in the lower registers. Enter the 'Rootless Voicings'.

As a bit of history, I've been told that rootless voicings started from Bill Evans and Wynton Kelly and the original sparse 1/7 voicings was a stylistic characteristic of Bud Powell (who as apparently an influence on Evans). Rootless voicings are often also called 'Cluster chords' or 'Closed Voicings' because they tend to be compressed in a small area of the keyboard. One major characteristic of rootless voicings is that there's not a lot of hand motion in ii-V-I progressions and this comes from very well thought out 'voice leading'. Rootless chords can be 3 note voicings or 4 note voicings. Here I will teach 4 note voicings and these will be played on the LH. This frees up the RH to play the melody or perform a solo.

Rootless voicings can also be used in a solo piano setting. They sound full of harmony and sometimes tension, but because they have to be played in a higher register (above middle C), there needs to be an occasional bass tone to supply a contrasting sound. As a technique to vary a solo piano piece, it is stylistically popular to mix rooted voicings, such as the ones we've covered earlier, with rootless voicings punctuated by an occasional bass root tone. How often one kicks in a bass tone is a stylistic choice. The more you leave it out the more tense the music becomes.

The Stride style of playing chords is
| B C B C | B C B C | B C B C | B C B C |etc.
where the each measure has 4 beats and the 'B' signifies a bass tone and the 'C' means a Chord tone. This is an old fashioned playing style and not usually used in modern jazz.

However, this style, often referred to as Modern Stride is used:
| B C | B C | B C | B C |etc.
where the bass is played on beat 1 and the chord is played from beats 2-4. There are many stylistic variations of this, like

| C C B | C | C C B | ...
notice the bass note is skipped in some cases. In this example, the bass is played in beat 3. A good jazz musician would be good at varying this so there's a constant change of pattern. This makes the music sound interesting.

In all the above example of stride playing, the original stride was based on the 'Chord' being a triad above the root. In modern Jazz, what is played is the rootless voicings which we will introduce here.

Continued[/b]
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/19/08 11:48 PM

Advanced - Rootless Chord Voicings - Combo Setting - Part 2[/b]

Theory[/b]

A little theory to Rootless voicings. This will explain how we arrive at the construction of a chord voicing. In Part 3, I will actually list by notes what the actual voicing is of each of the Autumn Leaves chords.

In general Rootless voicings will start with either a 7th or 3rd as the lowest note. The lowest note will generally be above middle C. Some books refer to Rootless voicings with the 3rd on the bottom as A[/b] voicings and those that start with the 7th on the bottom as B[/b] voicings. I didn't learn with this nomenclature but I think it's pretty easy to remember 7th or 3rd. All chords will feature a 3rd. There will be no root and in all cases that we discuss (we will not discuss Diminished chords), there will be a 9th to the chord.

So here's how each chord would be voiced by quality. Each chord will be voiced in the LH and within the span of an octave.

Major Seventh Chords[/b]
7 + 9 + 3 + 6*
7 + 3 + 5 + 6
or
3 + 5 + 6 + 9*
3 + 6 + 7 + 9

The asterisked versions are the ones we will use. For example in C, it may also be notated as C6(9). So in jazz CMaj7 may be freely interchanged with C6(9). Notice that there's always an interval that's only a whole step apart and may sound dissonant to those new to jazz

Minor Seventh Chords[/b]
7 + 9 + 3 + 5
or
3 + 5 + 7 + 9
Notice the only chord extension is the 9th. Minor 7 chords are not usually altered much more than that

Dominant Seventh Chords[/b]
7 + 9 + 3 + 13
or
3 + 13 + 7 + 9
Dominant Seventh chords are heavily altered but this is a plain vanilla dominant 7 voicing. Alterations can also be achieved using chord substitution so this general form will apply

Half Diminished Chords (m7b5)[/b]
7 + Root + b3 + b5
or
3 + b5 + 7 + Root


Dominant 7b9 Chords[/b]
3 5 b7 b9

This really is the same as playing a diminished seventh chord a half step up from the root but organized in various inversions.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 12:01 AM

Simplified - Rootless Chord Voicings - Combo Setting - Part 3[/b]

Here's the simplified method of doing Rootless chord voicings. I will just tell you what notes to play for Autumn Leaves for each chord. Is that simple enough \:D Play these above middle C. You'll have to move your melody up an octave.

Am7 (ii)
G B C E

D7 (V)
F# B C E

G Maj7 (I)
E A B D

C Maj7 (IV)
E G A D

F#m7b5 (iim7b5)
E F# A C

B7b9 (V7b9)
Eb F# A C

Em7 (i)
D F# G B

----- Turn Around Voicing | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7|

Em7
G B D F#

A7
G B C# F#

Dm7
F A C E

G7
F A B E

----------------------------

Combo Version of AL with Rootless Voicings
http://www.box.net/shared/fvpplr64go


When playing rootless voicings in solo piano, as discussed earlier, you can strike a bass note every so often. In Autumn Leaves, I would try hitting a bass note once at the beginning of every other chord. In other words, A on Am7, G on GM7, F# on F#m7b5, E on Em7.

Notice the voice leading on each ii-V-I set. Between ii-V, only one note moves. And from V to I is a smooth move of mostly one whole step (except for the 7th which only moves a half step). Notice the efficiency of this.

If you watch Bill Evans play, you will see his LH hardly moves and that's because he's using these voicings.

But don't overdo this. Don't play solo piano with just rootless voicings as you need to create variety by mixing in lower register notes. You can mix this with our previous 1/7,3/5/9 voicings.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 12:22 AM

More on Rootless Voicings[/b]

To learn or the rootless voicings, start off with doing one chord, let's say a major chord, and than move up a half step at a time and memorizing the finger positions. There are 24 possibilities for each chord (12 each for an A of B voicing - depending on what the lowest note is).

There are books available from Hal Leonard that already lays out this voicing for each chord. But if you know the theory about how the chord is constructed, you don't have to buy a book.

It is best to practice this in a ii-V-I sequence in 12 keys. In real life use, you will find that most chords are predominantly played with either only an A voicing or a B voicing due to the register location on the keyboard. So practicing in a ii-V-I format will make this clear.

Although this looks intimidating, after using rootless for awhile (and practicing them), you will start to appreciate the shape and most of them will come naturally.
Posted by: keystring

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 06:36 AM

Thanks, Jazzwee. Where do I find the melody? Currently I only have the sheet music that btb posted in the thread that led me here.

Lesson one looks like this in part:
 Quote:
Am7 - A G (Root + b7)
D7 - D C (Root + b7)
GMaj7 - G F# (Root + 7)
algebra to my eyes: 3a(b + 2c) = 3ab + 6ac ;\)

I understand enough to be able to decipher a bit of the code, but I'd like to go through the tutorial that GMM1 provided because it acts as a bridge. I want to have a feel for chords see from that angle, wean myself from predetermined music and/or the printed page by working through that tutorial and then it will be easier to follow. I assumed it develops from p. 1 - 17 and one doesn't jump in at the middle?

I'll be mostly lurking while I do that. So far even that little bit is ... er, I was going to use the overused word "fun" ... refreshing.
Posted by: gmm1

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 07:02 AM

Hey Keystring - heres a copy of a previous post...

 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Instead of a leadsheet (which we cannot officially post due to to copyrights) . . .[/b]
Heh, we cannot legally post our own recordings of Autumn Leaves either. ;\)

Here is a (legal!) leadsheet of Autumn Leaves, although I won't make any promises to its accuracy:
http://www.wikifonia.org/node/106

(If you select "Eb" under Layout, you'll see the score in Em, which is what we're talking about in this thread.)

Anyways, I just managed to record something bearable. Instead of 1-7 in the left hand, I alternated between 1-7 and 1-3 (and even a 1-5 at some point but that happened without thinking).

No (real) improvisations yet. I hope it swings. \:D

Here it is (MIDI file):
http://www.box.net/shared/bl81pqao0c [/b]
Or here:

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0028996
Posted by: keystring

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 07:36 AM

Thanks, GMM. So everyone is working with that melody and it is in the key of E minor which would have a key signature of one sharp. Correct? And what you do in jazz is basically start with a simple melody and begin to build around it, or play with it, both in the melody and doing things with the chords. And that's what everyone is doing. (I am as novice as they come, but have a jazz acquaintance so started having a faint idea.)
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 08:36 AM

Keystring: if you check on an exercise I posted in this thread (find them here and this one too ). It's an excercise for playing the shell voicings as jazzwee has explained.

About whom did what and when about shell voicings, the story I've been told by some of the older jazz cats is that Bud Powell got the idea for playing shell voicings in bebop from his studying of Bach.

Studying Bach, Mozart, Chopin , Ravel, Bartok and Debussy will definitely aid to anyone's jazz piano playing. Bill Evans, Keith Jarrett - etc all extol the merits of playing classical piano pieces.

But there's only so many hours in a day . . . \:\)
Posted by: keystring

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 08:57 AM

Thanks, Chris. I've bookmarked that too. Right now I want to become just generally familiar and bridge over from the classical world and become bilingual so to say. There is a common centre - after all, it's all music and harmony is harmony. Not much time but I'll grow into it and do more than lurk. I'm not that rigid because I was self-taught for decades, but alway with a classical orientation which is second nature, even when I played mainly by ear.
Posted by: keystring

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 09:00 AM

Oh, and once I find the time and get to that point I'll probably have questions while I reorient myself. That's be ok?
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 11:59 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
Thanks, Jazzwee. Where do I find the melody? Currently I only have the sheet music that btb posted in the thread that led me here.

Lesson one looks like this in part:
 Quote:
Am7 - A G (Root + b7)
D7 - D C (Root + b7)
GMaj7 - G F# (Root + 7)
algebra to my eyes: 3a(b + 2c) = 3ab + 6ac ;\)

[/b]
Hi Keystring, so translated to non Algebra \:D , what I mean is this:

When you see 'Am7', play 'A' and 'G'
When you see 'D7', play 'D' and 'C'
When you see 'GMaj7', play 'G' and 'F#'


In other words, what we are teaching here is a simplified understanding of chord construction. It is like a 'Shell Harmony'. This is not done because we are stupid and can't figure anything complicated \:D , but because this is the basis of a Left hand structure that gets enhanced in later lessons.

Now the reference to root and FLAT 7 or 7 as shown below....
 Quote:
Am7 - A G (Root + b7)
D7 - D C (Root + b7)
GMaj7 - G F# (Root + 7)
...is a sort of an introduction to Chord theory. Look at the interval for a Root and b7, against an interval for Root and 7 and compare it against an Octave.

When you see a minor chord (Am7) or dominant chord (D7), you can always assume that the second note is two half steps below an Octave from the first note.

When you see a major 7 chord (GMaj7), it is one half step short of a full octave.

With this little information, and assuming that one knows what an octave (which is guaranteed because we are smart adults \:D ), then you have an arsenal in your hand to get an idea of how a tune sounds when given just chords.

Frequently in this thread I will do something like this:

| Am7 | D7 | GMaj7 | etc...

Each Bar signifies a measure in notation and thus count 4 beats inside each measure (since Autumn Leaves is 4/4). This is like a "leadsheet" shortcut notation. So in this example, each chord is held for 4 beats. You can compare this against the sheet music/lead sheet linked above.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 12:57 PM

Here's Jazzwee's chords and voicings notated for those so inclined.
pdf
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 01:07 PM

Wow Chris. That's amazing. Now I don't remember. Did we ever make notation for the shell voicings with melody, or the 1/7,3/5/9 voicings? If we did I don't think I made a link at the Index section.

We should probably do that so Keystring and our many new participants can learn the 'Traditional' notation. You're a great help Chris! Thanks a bunch.
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 01:46 PM

Thanks again, Chris. Another welcome addition to my AL practice folder. \:\) (Edited in the spirit of camaraderie with our sister forum.)
Posted by: keystring

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 01:54 PM

Well actually I'm trying to understand the language and relate it to what I already know.

 Quote:
Am7 - A G (Root + b7)
(explanation)
When you see 'Am7', play 'A' and 'G'
So Am7 - AG (Root + b7) is the chord plus the explanation?
Then Am7 is the actual chord and whatever follows is not something new but just explaining it?

I understand that Am7 is a minor 7th chord starting on A. If that is correct, then my notes are A C E G, because that is what it would be as a minor 7th chord. So for my understanding, I need to know that Am7 means minor 7th chord.

So "root + b7" explains that this is the root chord of the A minor scale and "b" must mean it is diminished by a 2nd, or flatted, perhaps (b is flat?) but I don't need to look at that part if I know what a minor 7th chord is. I just need the Am7 part. No need to change your explanations for me - I just have to understand the language. Thanks. \:\)

What I've done is look at the chord info from GMM1 and play with the first chapter, see what it means according to what I know. That's the one that says I IV V covers all the notes of the scale. I played around with the notes of a scale seeing which of the chords fit with which and so got the idea. I'm already doing that in harmony theory but not as freely. I'm just going to get familiar with the language and seeing music from this angle before doing anything in this thread for a while. I think the main thing will simply be what things are called that I know already in a different way. I'm going to figure out some things on my own and then ask questions as they come.

A first one would be, if you are writing down a I, IV, or V chord (triad) do you just call it I, or A, or what?
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 02:19 PM

Keystring: the first chord in Autumn Leaves is a IV-chord. The key of Autumn Leaves (in the version we are working on)is Em.

root + b7 is ( ex) root=C and b7=Bb
which you can play on any m7 or 7 chord.

root + 7 is (ex) root=C and 7=B
which you can play on any Maj7 chord

(keep them a seventh apart)
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 02:27 PM

Ok. At Jazzwee's request, here's the melody with 1-7 voicings. pdf

Here's the LH 1-7, RH 3-5-9 voicings: pdf

and to really bake your noodle's, here's a pro-version of LH voicings: pdf
these are voicings I would use for playing w a trio.
Posted by: keystring

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 02:31 PM

Chris, does Am7 mean that it is a minor 7th chord, which means my notes are ACEG?

Do I need the additional information "root + b7", or is that only for those who need to learn what a minor 7th is?

I am not working on Autumn Leaves yet. I want to get familiar with the language first. I'm exploring the info gmm1 gave to get a feel for it.

What does "b" mean in b7. Is it the same thing as "flat" i.e. reducing a note by a semitone?

"root" as I understand it is the bottom note of a triad in root position. Are you using it to mean the triad as a whole, i.e. AC#E, where A is the root?

I think I'm getting bogged down by the explanation of a concept I already understand, and the explanation is throwing me. That's why I need the vocabulary. For example, if there is just a thing as AM7, and if that means a major 7 chord with a root triad of A major, then I know what that means and how to form it.

The first thing I'm doing is to explore theory presented in the other fasion so that I can catch the language. I should get most of it that way and then I'll come in with any questions.
Posted by: keystring

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 02:32 PM

double post
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 02:40 PM

Yes. Am7 means= A minor seven = A C E G

root+b7 is shorthand for playing an interval of a minor seventh.

b means flat as in Bb, Eb, Db, etc
b7 means a minor seventh; b3 is a minor third, etc.

Yes a root is the bottom note in root position

Yes there is such a thing as a AM7. :-)
AM7 = A Major seven = A C# E G#
A major seven comes in many different spellings: AMaj7, AM7, Amaj7, A(pyramid)7. sorry i don't have any pyramid symbols :-D

Look through the pdf's I just posted, it should get you up and running (or down and playing).
Posted by: keystring

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 02:59 PM

At first glance, of the three, the pro voicings make the most sense to me. In the first, a seventh is indicated, but there are only three notes. I don't want to just be able to play by reading the score, or I'm not doing much different from classical music. I want to understand what the chord names mean so that I can play with them. With what you have posted I can extrapolate what they mean so that I can understand any chord name. I'll play with all of that a bit until I get a picture and then I'll pop up again with questions. Thanks a lot!
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 05:06 PM

Jazzwee, again thanks for your further lessons. I particularly like your clear simple explanations, giving the reasons behind them & which certainly are assisting me in understanding, what we are all trying to do. I have just one problem & that is putting it all into practice & sounding half decent. But I'm working on it!

Just a little further clarification on Part 3, the notes for AL. Are there a couple of typos or is my own theory incorrect?

Chord Am7 should it be G,B,C, E[/b] (7+9+b3+5)?

Should D7 be F#, B,C, E[/b] (3+13+b7+9)?

Finally in Em7 should the D#[/b] be F#? (9)?

Also a big thanks to ChrisBell for the pdfs.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 05:14 PM

as i interpreted jazzwee's chords it's as it's written.
nothing wrong with having the fourth in instead of the fifth. it just adds another colour.
:-)

same thing with the other chords.

in fact putting a D# together with a D-natural makes for a wicked sound!

remember this all interpretations of a basic chord symbol. depending on the setting, tempo, etc I would choose one or the other voicing.
that's one of the reasons that i love about jazz - and not to ramble on it too much . . . once upon a time this was valid in playing, for instance; barock music.
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 05:55 PM

Thanks Chris, I understand, what you are saying. However, I was relating it to the theory in Part 2 & the suggested composition of the different chords.

When playing the rootless voicings with the occasional root in the left hand, is it correct to play with no pedal, when playing the root & then the chord?

What is the recommended way of playing say 2 measures,(e.g. Am7, D7). Would you play first with root on 1 (quarter note), the rootless chord over 2 to 4 (dotted halfnote) & then simply the next rootless chord over the second measure from 1 to 4 (semibreve) or would you play shorter note with additional stabs on the offbeat? Finally would the notes be played for their full lengths and would any be accented?

Thanks.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 06:05 PM

Aha, you are correct in that they are different.
I interpreted that Part 3 is a suggestion of another voicing (we pianists sure like our voicings!) :-)

As for playing with a pedal or not, it depends on the piano, what sound I want to create, the tempo I'm playing at and my mood for the day.
My tip is to experiment consciously. And listen really hard.
In my early jazz years I used to pedal all the time until one lesson at Newcastle College with a great jazz piano teacher he asked me "why?". A really good question which woke me up to the fact of what sound do I want to create, not just bang away at the keyboard.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 06:11 PM

Kanga, Many thanks for spotting the typos. You got it all correct so that's extremely good. I made the corrections up top.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 06:19 PM

Keystring, regarding the chords, in Jazz, there's an issue of

A. Chord Spelling
B. Chord Voicing

You are absolutely correct that you SPELL 'Am7' as 'A C E G'.

However, there's the issue of 'Voicing' the chord, how to distribute the chords between the two hands, and what extensions to add to generate color to the harmony. So in Autumn Leaves, we are teaching first to 'Voice' a chord using only two notes, the root and the 7th of the chord (which is A and G in Am7). This is then voiced lower on the keyboard, so the entire interval is below middle C. This is the foundation of the BASS voicing of Jazz solo piano.

Later in the lessons, we add more notes in the bottom and then more notes on the RH to arrive at a full voicing. By teaching in this manner, we are enabling you guys and gals to play any tune given a 'Leadsheet'.

In Jazz, tunes are published in a book such as the REAL BOOK series, available at any bookstore, and it's chock full of leadsheets for any tune. Given the exact lessons we've done here and lots of practice, you could play a shell/simplified version of any tune. Then as you analyze it, you enhance it with a fuller sound. But that comes later.

The techniques taught here are no different than what would be played by a professional jazz musician when trying out a tune for the first time. I use these techniques every day.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 06:22 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by chrisbell:

in fact putting a D# together with a D-natural makes for a wicked sound!
[/b]
This is so funny. I realize this is just a typo, but in SOME WAYS it is not! I actually voice the D7 in Autumn Leaves with no root and a D# \:D But let's not go there. This was not my intent at this stage.

When we get to an advanced level, there's some pretty exciting sounds with substitutions like this.

Chris, sorry for messing you up but please make the corrections if you used by unintended voicings. Thanks man!
Posted by: keystring

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 06:24 PM

Hm, it sounds a bit like harmony minus the middle, only in real time. Thanks, I'm more oriented now.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 06:29 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
Hm, it sounds a bit like harmony minus the middle, only in real time. Thanks, I'm more oriented now. [/b]
The middle is filled in the RH, as you will find out later. Voicings allow you to use the full range of registers of the piano as well as add extensions.

In the advanced level of voicing Am7, it is voiced two handed as
Left Hand: A, G, Right Hand: C, E, B.

Or Rootless Left Hand only, as
C E G B.

Now these are advanced lessons (Lesson 6 and 7). Since you're familiar with classical theory, notice that the Am7 when voiced in Jazz LOOKS EXACTLY LIKE A 'C MAJOR 7'! These are the discoveries one will make in the study of Jazz and will expose one to a fuller understanding of Harmony.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 06:43 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Kanga, Many thanks for spotting the typos. You got it all correct so that's extremely good. I made the corrections up top. [/b]
Ah so much for interpretation, it just shows that knowing to much is to much sometimes. \:\)
I've corrected the pdf.

But I still like the D# together with a D-natural.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 06:46 PM

 Quote:
Now these are advanced lessons (Lesson 6 and 7). Since you're familiar with classical theory, notice that the Am7 when voiced in Jazz LOOKS EXACTLY LIKE A 'C MAJOR 7'! These are the discoveries one will make in the study of Jazz and will expose one to a fuller understanding of Harmony.
Don't get me started on that subject! \:D
Posted by: keystring

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 06:59 PM

THanks, Jazzwee and Chrisbell, I have enough to go on now.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 06:59 PM

Ignore[/b]

 Quote:
Originally posted by chrisbell:
 Quote:
Now these are advanced lessons (Lesson 6 and 7). Since you're familiar with classical theory, notice that the Am7 when voiced in Jazz LOOKS EXACTLY LIKE A 'C MAJOR 7'! These are the discoveries one will make in the study of Jazz and will expose one to a fuller understanding of Harmony.
Don't get me started on that subject! \:D [/b]
Chris, hard to hold back isn't it? \:D Now you know how I feel... ;\)

But I guess we'll just have to have everyone make their self discoveries at their own pace. In some ways, maybe the rootless voicings are premature but the questions are leading in that direction so might as well get it out of the way.

On another thread in a PW forum, we were criticized for teaching nothing but playing triads in the key of C \:D . Some rootless voicings should get that misconception straightened out.

Actually for AL, I voice my D7 on the LH as 'D#, A, D'. The crunchy way \:D That should give them something to think about. That's my triad...(for those so inclined, it's an F7).
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/20/08 11:22 PM

More on Modern Stride, Rootless Voicings[/b]

One thing I forgot to add about playing modern stride with rootless voicings, often you would pedal the bass note and jump to the voicing just like in the old stride (but remember that bass roots in modern stride is much more irregular).

There's a stylistic choice to also play the bass note very briefly and lightly with no pedal.

In solo piano, you can mix up rootless voicings (with or without stride), together with any of the voicings we have discussed previously, including Walking Bass. But rootless voicings are pretty much the standard fare when in a combo.

The voicings discussed here could be 90% of what a new jazzer would utilize. One more voicing that has not been discussed are BLOCK CHORDS. And we will discuss that at a later time.

Now if you listen to the Jazz Masters, what you hear may still not be explained by the voicings for the chords as discussed here.

This goes into a more complex subject and that is SUBSTITUTIONS. In jazz, if one fully understands Harmony, it opens up a whole world of choices when playing a tune. This can be done one the fly, or one could arrange a tune in advance to sound different and this is the process of REHARMONIZATION.

This means that instead of playing AL with the standard ii-V-I chords, maybe we'll play a completely different chord progression while still playing the same melody. And this is the colorful jazz sound that one hears and is more intense than even the voicings discussed here would suggest.

We will discuss some of these harmonic concepts a little at a time, picking on various topics. In the meantime, let these voicing concepts sink in. Think of the big picture of everything that has been discussed and feel free to ask questions.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/21/08 03:34 AM

This is my FIRST post in the Piano World Forum (in the 19th page of a long thread LOL!!!!)

Though I am new here but a few of you know me very well already in this piano journey.

In the past week, this thread of Autumn Leaves caught my eyes and I have been following through it with GREAT INTEREST.

First, I want to give a HEARTY THANKS especially to Jazzwee and Chrisbell for the time they had taken to share themselves with us and putting such a great amount of time to teach us step-by-step. We are truly very GRATEFUL for your interest and patience in taking our hands to help us each step of the way to success.

My GOAL: to want to be able to DO spontaneous solo improvisation in the moment.

I realize that this thread is leading to my goal and that the lessons given to us by Jazzwee is a method/approach not only applying to Autumn Leaves but to other songs as well --- Yaaay!!!

So here I am starting from SCRATCH back to Lesson 1 on p. 1 and not to skip the lessons so that I don't miss anything on the way.

Please come in and give me comments. All comments are welcome so feel free to tell me whether I am on the right track.

Lesson One[/b]

http://www.box.net/shared/kgl0a1oe84

This lesson is very instructive for me because I can learn to hear the chord progression of the song without concentrating so much on the melody line.

Also to be mindful of the 3rd in the melody line for soloing improvisation is what I want to do.

Lesson Two (but wrong swing)[/b]

http://www.box.net/shared/sfzzllh0co

I always thought the swing is done like that.

But it is an eye opener to me when Jazzwee says to do it: legato on that 1st off beat and staccato on the quarter beat.

Not too late......to make correction so that I can change my habit before it sets in wrongly.

So I did the following REAL swing according to Jazzwee suggestion.

Lesson Two Real Swing[/b]

http://www.box.net/shared/azg6dduqs4

Let me know:
1. is the legato is held too long for the first off beat?
2. is the staccato for the quarter beat right?
3. do I have the Charleston Rhythm on the LH?


Rosa \:\)

Oh....a bonus....the following recording I did without any preparation but in the moment. I thought it would be interesting to hear what I really sound like in my present style when I play Autumn Leaves and it should be interesting to find out what I eventually can do with this song after these lessons.

Rosa's Style:

http://www.box.net/shared/zbmxktco4c
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/21/08 01:01 PM

Hi Rosa! Rosa has been communicating with me privately before so I already commented on her intitial works. I'm glad you figured out how to post.

 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
Let me know:
1. is the legato is held too long for the first off beat?
2. is the staccato for the quarter beat right?
3. do I have the Charleston Rhythm on the LH?
[/b]
To answer your questions,

#1 - No it is fine. Accent it though.
#2 - Quarter beat is detached but not staccato. The official term would be Marcato. So almost full value but with just a noticeable pull up at the end. Maybe a 32th rest. Listen to the way I play it at the beginning of the thread. It can be subtle and a little hard to learn so you need to concentrate on listening to it.

#3 Your LH is not yet a Charleston Beat. A Charleston has an off tempo feel because one of the sounds occur at the '2+' of the measure.

So typically it is at Beat 1 and at Beat 2+. The length of each chord stab can vary. Chris Bell has it long, I played it with short stabs.

Count it out so you can see where it lands. Now remember too that the melody does not start on beat 1.


Rosa you apparently already have classical piano skills so you will that the hardest transition to jazz is actually rhythmic. Listen to the various recordings carefully and see if you can pick out what we are talking about.

In a one-to-one teacher to student live interaction, we could interact on the swing feel several times in a lesson, but due to the nature of internet forums, this is the hardest thing to teach. So the solution is to rely on a lot of listening.

I find that advance in Jazz comes from building the ability to discern what you are listening to. At this stage in my learning, I am able to discern swing ratios and accents. This is harder for someone beginning. But you will get there.

We did put a lot of material on swing discussions. I would listen to all that and then see if you understand what some of the discussions relate to.

You're a very hard worker Rosa so you'll develop pretty quickly!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/21/08 01:12 PM

Rosa, one thing I noticed on your beautiful, ballad rendition that you can work on, is that your melody is not starting off in the same place.

In AL, using your version of the melody, in the first four bars of the tune, the melody should start at 2+ each time, with the whole note landing exactly on beat 1. You did it correctly on the first two bars so just apply that same counting to all of them. Lots of rhythmic thinking to do here.

Hopefully you know what I mean when I say 2+. If not, let me know and I will explain it again.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/21/08 06:32 PM

Jazzwee, the lesson 6 link (2+3 voicing) in the index is landing in the wrong spot. Should be:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/32/5653/15.html#000368
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/21/08 06:35 PM

thanks Deeluk. Done. That index is getting to be of critical importance now. Hard to remember where everything is.
Posted by: KeyboardJungle

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/21/08 08:34 PM

So, I have spent the last three days grinding your 2+3 voicings through the circle of fifths. Enlightment! This is absolutely amazing!

I dug out the only Jamey Aebersold book that I have ever bought, and I can keep up with the changes in the A section of "The Nearness of You"! Even figured out how to fit in a diminished chord. Here's my advice to anybody that hasn't done so - find some kind of track that goes through the circle of fifths with ii-V7-I progressions and practice all 12. It will be well worth the time. I spent about 20 hours at it this weekend, but you may learn faster.

I have a track on a CD that came with a jazz book that cycles through arpeggios using ii-V-I, so I practice filline in the chord progressions as a background to it. It takes the monotony out of the practicing and prevents you from cheating on the tempo.

Thanks again for the forum! I have made more progress since the forum started than I have made in the last two years!

Gotta run - have to finish section B tonight.
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/21/08 10:35 PM

kbj, to clarify, so were you just going around the circle and playing ii,V,I's like this:

C - Dm7,G7,CM7
G - Am7,D7,GM7
D - Em7,A7,DM7
etc.

And for voicings you were doing 1/7 on the LH a 3 on the RH?

Sorry, but this thread has gotten so big I can't find which were the 2+3 voicings.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 12:30 AM

bluekeys, we have been indexing everything on Page 1. So 2+3 voicings are Lesson 6.

It's an advanced level comping voicing and sounds great. By the time you get to 'Lesson 7 - Rootless Voicings', you will be in another world again.

There's more to this my friends, but these are the foundations.

Just so everyone's expectation is clear, I think 2+3 voicings are doable in a short time frame as KeyboardJungle has proven.

Rootless voicings are probably twice as difficult because there are two sets (A & B Voicings). Initially I would just sit there and memorize each possibility and not really analyze it much.

However, I'd like to say here that as you advance in your journey (which could be years), it is my experience that the INTERVALS themselves become automatic. This means that it should take very little brain time to identify a voicing based, for example on a '3, 5, 7, 9' of a Minor 7 chord.

This is means daily practice of recognizing scales and chord tones. There's really no shortcut to getting to an advanced level. It's hard work. But motivated adults are particularly good at getting this accomplished, probably more so than younger people.

All we're doing in Autumn Leaves is introducing the ideas. Just because we're doing a ii-V-I in G doesn't mean you do it only in G. Yes as a beginner you do, but always try to up the ante for your own development.

KeyboardJungle has done exactly what is needed and by taking this to 12 keys, he has accomplished a hell of a lot.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 12:55 AM

\:\) Jazzwee your feedback is very valuable and much appreciated. Thanks.

Yes, I understand what "2+" is. It's one thing to know it in your head but another to actually be letting that rhythm ring out at the right time. (I "thought" I was doing the 2nd hit on the + of the 2+ but apparently not quite.)

I'll be listening to those midi and recordings to get the feel......once I get the feel of it, the counting should come along.

The off beat accent and the swings are different from what I have been used to playing. Once this rhythm thing get going.....and mastered.....everything should flow.

This should be a lot of fun to 'mess' around with.

Rosa
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 01:44 AM

Rosa, try recording the Charleston by itself once you get the hang of it. You know the 1920's Charleston right? This is the same thing except slowed down. Does your keyboard have a rhythm or metronome? It's pretty hard to do Charleston without a time reference for counting.
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 01:53 AM

 Quote:

bluekeys, we have been indexing everything on Page 1. So 2+3 voicings are Lesson 6.
I may be missing something, but those voicings seem to be varied somewhat to reduce RH movement and provide voice leading for AL. For purposes of an initial drill to gain familiarity with ii,V,I progressions, couldn't I use something a little more straight-forward, like the 3/b3-5-9 RH patterns in this pdf Chris put together? (transposed to the other 11 keys as well, of course).

http://www.directionsinmusic.com/jazz_ex/AL_1-7_3-5-9.pdf

Please let me know if you think that would be a mistake for some reason. Thanks!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 02:35 AM

bluekeys, the 2+3 voicing is specifically a comping lesson and has a more rich harmony because of the presence of 9ths and 13ths.

It in fact starts out with 3/5/9 RH on the ii chord but if you don't move your RH, suddenly the voicing becomes richer with the 3/5/9 turning into 7/9/13 on the V chord. The LH is doing 1/7 and switching to 1/3 on the ii/V.

So this is important to learn as it introduces you to some pretty snazzy jazz harmonies, but all you did was NOT MOVE THE RIGHT HAND.

This is an excellent comping practice for ii-V-I.

Of course you can also just do a fixed 1/7 on the LH and a constant 3/5/9 on the RH as in Chris's example. That's a good starting point as the finger intervals are the same.

But real jazz playing relies a lot on voice leading which keeps motions down. Lesson 6 is more advanced. Lesson 7 is even more advanced. So that's where you eventually need to get to. Travel at your own pace. Start at whatever you're comfortable with first.

Those who have tried the 2+3 Voicings I gave here can vouch for the fact that they sound really good for a basic voicing. Very jazzy. As I mentioned before, this did not come from any book. Given that this was meant to be applied to AL and interspersed with melody, it is easier to play than a pure 1/7,3/5/9 at all times because there's more motions in that. Harder to play a melody that way.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 05:20 AM

Slightliy off-topice from AL but not from playing jazz. here's good interview with Keith Jarrett about his standard trio and their cd live at montreux.
it\'s here (playback magazine)
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 08:04 AM

jazzwee, Your index on page 1 is very helpful. I do have a quick question. How many lessons are there? Lesson 5 is missing from the list.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 09:44 AM

Here comes my version of Charleston beat

http://www.box.net/shared/xykscqvmso

If it is, am I able to keep it steady throughout?
If not, what am I doing?

Rosa
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 10:55 AM

Gang,

Just stumbled across another professional version from Patricia Barber. It's available for download for free. Check it out.

http://www.patriciabarber.com/mp3/pb-autumnleaves-05.mp3
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 11:32 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
jazzwee, Your index on page 1 is very helpful. I do have a quick question. How many lessons are there? Lesson 5 is missing from the list. [/b]
Hi Barb, Lesson 5 is Walking Bass. Looks like I accidentally erased it. It's back now.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 11:37 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
Here comes my version of Charleston beat

http://www.box.net/shared/xykscqvmso

If it is, am I able to keep it steady throughout?
If not, what am I doing?

Rosa [/b]
Good job Rosa! You're doing it right. Now I would do this with a metronome so you have a solid Rock steady tempo on the LH. You'll have to turn your LH into a metronome. This is a long term process. It's like juggling to keep the LH steady while having a counterpoint melody on the RH with a slightly different Rhythm. The RH does not play Charleston.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 01:38 PM

Good. At least I am on the right track and can move on.

I don't have a metronome but I suppose I can use this one online to get the steady rock tempo to train my LH.

http://www.metronomeonline.com/
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 02:38 PM

Good work Rosa2007, glad to hear that you're working on the exercise!
Suggestion; try and hold the RH note (for 2 bars) whilst the LH plays the comp.
And I concur on Jazzwee's suggestion about getting a metronome, it's definitely worthwhile for improving your playing. (well actually for all of us . . )
:-)
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 03:25 PM

Lesson 8 - Scale Exercise 1 [/b]

So . . here's a little scale exercise to aid you in your working on those solos.
Do it straight, do it with swing. RH at first, then put LH together.
pdf midi
The midi is there for you to hear it, but don't imitate it! It's stiff as a lot of midi gets \:\)
Enjoy!

The exercise is to show how a little knowledge goes far. It's built on the root-scale: G major (or a sort of E minor, let's not get into discussions on the different minors scales, that's a whole other level . . ) and using only (well, just about) those notes. g a b c d e f# g
For those of you who'll look closely at the scales will discover what notes I use to base each scale run on.

You can of course play the RH 1 octave up, vary between high and low, play 16ths (that'll be 2 octaves then), play triplets, play 1 bar 8th notes, 1 bar 16ths, 1 bar nothing, etc etc. Create your own variations. Heck play 2 bars my exercise, and then play 2 bars of whatever you come up with!
So I challenge you all to do this! \:D

Don't forget to post your files!
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 05:51 PM

Cool, Chris. Thanks for that. My improv needs some spice. Sticking to the Gmaj scale has been a bit repetitive. I've tried vertical vs. horizontal, pentatonic, blues. This adds another little dimension.

So, analyzing the exercise a bit.... In bar 19 we have Em7 - A7. If we consider this a ii-V in D, we can see that the scale in fact matches the key of D (F# and C#). Similarly, in bar 20, we have Dm7 - G7, a ii-V in C. Hence the naturals. What I don't understand is the D# in bars 7 and 11 over Em7. Is this coming from "outside"? Or is it just a part of a repeating motif?

One more question: bar 22. Not quite sure how to understand this one. Obviously, the scale is derived from the key of A. But how do we get there? B7 - Em7, almost a ii-V in A? Something in F# minor?
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 06:13 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
So, analyzing the exercise a bit....
oh no! don't analyze! \:D sorry, couldn't resist it)

 Quote:
In bar 19 we have Em7 - A7. If we consider this a ii-V in D, we can see that the scale in fact matches the key of D (F# and C#).
Yep, and D is the dominant to G. (but what comes next is not D but a Dm. Which is a nice little shift. But it doesn't stop there . .
The C# is put there also as a nice halftone slide up to d and then the f (which is then the b3 of Dm)

 Quote:
Similarly, in bar 20, we have Dm7 - G7, a ii-V in C. Hence the naturals.
yes it could be considered a II-V in C.
But G7 could also be a tritone substitue for C#7 which then leads us back to the next chord F#m7b5.
Tritone substitution will come soon. \:\)

 Quote:
What I don't understand is the D# in bars 7 and 11 over Em7. Is this coming from "outside"? Or is it just a part of a repeating motif?
Good question. I put a D# in for several reasons, first I like the sound of it I like the cromatic movement upward, it creates tension, it's not meant to be held (then it would clash to much with a D natural in the LH), but as a passing tone. Also, if you play the notes: D# E G you get a blues touch to it (in fact nearly every bar in this exercise can be used over another bar; "what does he mean?!??" I'll be brief; the bars that you play over Em7 can also be played over CMaj7, don't believe me? try and you'll see. I'll get into the theory of that later), also a D# lead up towards an E (and I'm studying Chopin just now, and this is something that he did a lot; also, if you study some of either Keith Jarrett or Bill Evans, you'll find this in there too.)

 Quote:
One more question: bar 22. Not quite sure how to understand this one. Obviously, the scale is derived from the key of A. But how do we get there? B7 - Em7, almost a ii-V in A? Something in F# minor?
sorry but no. the scale up (i believe you mean the b c# d#) is in the key of Em. If you look in the melody of AL, the first bar of B7b9 has those notes. (which actually makes the B7b9 wrong, should be B9). AL is in the key of E minor. It is built on the both ascending and descending melodic minor scale. These shifts between these 2 scales is what makes AL into a fantastic piece of music; a marvelous composition. Remember that is a French composition, and a chanson to boot, the song reeks of classical harmony. Kosma himself was a highly trained pianist and composer from Hungary. He studied with Bartok and Eisler. So we are treading on a finely tuned work of music.
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/22/08 11:07 PM

There is so much information, it will take weeks to digest all.

I received Jazz Keyboard Harmony by P.DeGreg, it's a very interesting book and there is a lot of stuff to practice.

Serge
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/23/08 12:30 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Serge88:
There is so much information, it will take weeks to digest all.

Serge [/b]
Weeks? Don't worry. There's months of stuff here so far. So don't feel pressured to do it to the last lesson. It's impossible unless you already know the earlier stuff. We try to generate new information only as we see how some of you are doing. If we sense that someone is tackling the latest lessons then we'll make a new lesson.

Chris put a focus on Solos so we can light a fire in that direction.

When there's a practice lull (because the last lesson is too difficult), we'll drop a little bit of theory on the side.

So far, the lessons have remained sequenced roughly in the order that I would have liked to have learned it.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/23/08 01:57 AM

Serge, there is no need to be too overwhelmed by the information. We can just take it at our pace one step at a time and that's why I am starting at lesson 1 and not skip any lessons along the way.

I am not following any books so I have only this thread to depend on.

And the neat thing about this thread is that the info is streamlined to help us focus on the real issues and also some of this stuff are not taught in books, so better than that you cannot get elsewhere.

In fact I've got 30+ jazz books but I don't know how to make good use of them, even though some have CD audios.

The problem I find is that those of us who don't have a live teacher, we just practise things in close closet and never know whether we are doing it correctly.

 Quote:
So I challenge you all to do this!

Don't forget to post your files!
I sure will once I get a hang of it in decent presentation.

Sure good to know there are people ahead of us who are willing to point us the way, what we are doing right and what we are doing wrong. Thank you you both.

Rosa

...yes metronome is on my shopping list.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/24/08 02:42 AM

Lesson 9 - 'Playing in the Pocket'[/b]

Early on in the discussion of swing, we discussed Eighth note playing and accenting. Clearly a certain precision is required if one is to exactly know how to distribute time between each note in a pair of eighth notes, or supply an accent.

That precision cannot be arrived at without a solid foundation of time, or in jazz lingo, we say "Playing in the Pocket". Playing a Charleston Rhythm, and especially playing a line on the RH and then contrasting against a LH with a different rhythmic feel is a challenge.

So part of learning about jazz is to develop this solid time. Thus jazz practice needs to be a combination of playing solo piano, and the other part is to play with a rhythm section. There have been several rhythm backing tracks provided above.

Solid time needs to be developed for each hand. Believe or not good rhythm is a technique. And to me the advanced understanding of this is getting a 'Groove'. This is understanding time to its full potential. And that it is to understand placement of a line could be right on the beat, behind the beat, or in front of the beat and understanding the effect of this. It gives the tune a life that goes beyond the mechanics of playing an exact rhythm.

There is definitely an exactness to this but the jazz masters understand this to a greater level as their placement of a note within the context of the exact time generates emotions of tension and release. Listen closely to jazz music and you will sense that there's more to it than mechanics.

So having good solid time is important. How is this developed?

Here's some techniques that are often mentioned:

How to Develop Good Time[/b]

1. Play against a metronome that clicks on beat 2 & 4. This gives one a good swing training and helps in understanding the Charleston rhythm.

2. Time has to be internalized so your body starts to recognize an internal clock. I've tried this method and it appears to have helped me. When driving a car or sitting quietly somewhere, I had earphones connected to an electronic metronome, and I tapped a pulse (at various tempos), until my time improved.

3. When using the metronome, first starting off tapping on every click, then have a click only on 2 & 4. This gives you a chance to adjust your tempo feel in those empty moments of no click but you have to tap. Expand this to click only once per measure. And suddenly cut the volume of the metronome, and keep tapping. Restore the metronome back and see if you're still in time. This is hard at first.

4. Getting good time is about learning to "SUBDIVIDE". This is why you do 2 & 4. You learn to subdivide the time between every other beat. The more detailed your subdivision the easier to keep time. For example, having an empty space for an entire measure in 4/4, it is hard to keep time. But if you are counting 8th note pulses in your head, it is easier.

5. Don't count eighth note pulses as
1 & 2 & 3 & 4
because the words for these numbers are not even when said verbally. So use some sort of word repeated word pattern, like:

Ta-Ki-Ta-Ki-Ta-Ki-Ta-Ki

6. One of the problems of developing good rhythm is to even know that you're playing out of tempo. A beginner cannot hear slight time issues. YOU HAVE TO TRAIN YOURSELF TO HEAR YOUR TIME ERRORS. Once you hear the mistakes in your time, you will have improved. This is a never ending process BTW, because the better you get, even minute time problems are more obvious to you. So training with a metronome or rhythm section is a continuous process.

7. Record yourself. This way you will learn to hear your rhythm issues. Again you need to hear the errors, after which you will have improved.

8. It takes time to internalize solid time. But if you start practicing now, you will notice improvement in a couple of months. By a year's time, you will notice great development.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/24/08 12:23 PM

OK Chris, I have taken you up on your challenge. And what a challenge it is! I won't tell you how many hours I've worked to get the speed up to a turtle pace of 60 (You play it at 120).

Here it is with Band in the Box drums:

http://www.box.net/shared/dowsvhps88

Before I spend more hours in working up the speed, I would appreciate your feedback. Be as cruel as you want....I'm in here for the long haul... or at least until I sound like Keith Jarrett ;-)

ps jazzwee - lesson 9 came at a great time for me -- thank you!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/24/08 12:45 PM

Very good Barb! But you're the Swingin' Barb and you forgot to swing \:D

Anyway, I'm just looking for the opportunity to remind everyone about swing eight again. Just remember, you're playing eighth notes here (sounds like quarter notes at this tempo) but this means you have to swing the eights. Accent every upbeat. Very legato. BTW, the slower one plays, the more exaggerated the swing.

This is very good and practical scale practice. Make sure you analyze what notes are being played on each chord.

Keep at it Barb. Great work!
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/24/08 01:02 PM

Right, jazzwee. The swing was definitely absent. I spent lots of time just working on getting that left hand into the correct groove.

So, forward march with this. Do you recommend I still keep even eighth notes, but now accent the 'and' (those upbeats)?

If you have some free time (yeah, right), it would be nice to hear you play this at a slow speed with that cool swing of yours.

Barb
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/24/08 01:16 PM

Ahh sounding like KJ . . . not a bad inspiration.

I agree with Jazzwee, swing swing swing.

Barb, it's great that you're doing the exercise and you've got it's basics. Now, do it again, this time swing the RH

This time play the first chord (the chord on the 1) a little shorter and lighter, put the emphasis on the second chord (the 2-and). It's great that you are using drums as your metronome (btw; it's not me playing at 120, it's the computer generated from my notation app) but I feel that the sounds and the beat you are using is a tad bit heavy. If you have something like "Jazzkit" then use it. Maybe a nice cymbal going . . .
Also, beware so that you're not rushing the beat, try and "hang" back.

Keep up the good work!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/24/08 01:19 PM

Barb, my own tendency is to play straight once I get near 150bpm (unless I'm trying to sound like Bill Evans or Wynton Kelly). But I was taught to always accent.

Many teachers teach an exaggerated swing at the beginning and then as the player matures, more personal preference sets in. But I think, in general that most swing is not exaggerated as the term 'corny' is used. So here, I try not to emphasize the swing ratio as much as the accent.

Barb, I'm 'recording impaired' right now so I'm trying to get a new digital for that purpose. I have too many kids running around and it is almost impossible to find a quiet moment to record with lots of background noise!
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/24/08 01:30 PM

Thank you Chris and Jazzwee. Your feedback is very much appreciated!

Barb
Posted by: rintincop

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/24/08 02:58 PM

.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/24/08 04:38 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rintincop:
Doesn't your "straight" at 150 bpm mean something nearer to straight rather than totally "straight"? [/b]
Absolutely rintincop. In fact, it doesn't even mean I could keep the same swing feel throughout. I'd probably shift back and forth on swing ratios as this not machine like. But, at that BPM, I will have the "tendency" to head towards the straighter end of things. No other reason than that's how I was taught.

All this as you know is a matter of taste. So please feel free to decide how you want to apply it based on emulating someone you like. Just don't forget the accent part.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/24/08 07:38 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:

5. Don't count eighth note pulses as
1 & 2 & 3 & 4
because the words for these numbers are not even when said verbally. So use some sort of word repeated word pattern, like:

Ta-Ki-Ta-Ki-Ta-Ki-Ta-Ki
[/b]
Jazzwee - Regarding Lesson 9 above, I tried saying the 1 & 2 & versus the Ta-Ki-Ta-Ki. When I count 1 & 2 &, it appears to be even. When I say Ta-Ki-Ta-Ki, the Ta is longer than the Ki. Very strange, indeed
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/24/08 08:05 PM

Not strange Barb, yes Ta and Ki are not even. But heck, it swings! \:D

Use any combination of words that will achieve the purpose and you're very smart in understanding that some syllables have a longer sound and some have a shorter sound.

I learned Ta-Ki from some Rhythmic CD lesson, I bought once. Since you're not really saying it out loud, it would be best that it not be a complex word ;\)

But on saying 1 & 2 & 3 & 4, let me just say that in the middle of a solo, you're not going to be able to say any words to yourself since it is more of a pulse you're looking for. It's hard to think about saying actual words when you're busy doing something else.

Also, it seems to be that TOOOOO sounds longer than WUN.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/25/08 09:24 AM

Nice going Barb.

http://www.box.net/shared/ym0vg6xc8w

:rolleyes: I tried to 'swing' mine but it sounds kinda funny cuz I tried to accent the 2+ and 4+ also.

I only did A section to make sure I am on the right track before continuing.

Q: When we hit that 2nd beat of LH Charleston, is it supposed to come down slightly after the swing of the 2+ of the RH or do they come down together at the same time?

Rosa
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/25/08 12:05 PM

Hi Rosa, you need to accent EVERY +. Not just 2+ and 4+. So it's every other beat.

Again the reason we do this is because this scale exercise is made up of 8th notes. Handling of Eighth notes (swing) is the biggest difference between jazz styling and classical.

If you can do it, it's better to practice this faster because it's hard to swing playing at 60bpm. Shoot for over 100bpm.

Don't over exaggerate the oompah-oompah so much. That's what we've been referring to as the swing ratio where one note is longer than the other (the downbeat being longer than the upbeat). As in discussions earlier, you will learn what a good ratio is of upbeat and downbeat based on your own preference later. But concentrate mostly on the accent.

This is a technique issue BTW. It is hard to develop the control to make notes swing consistently to the point of being automatic. There might even be arm strain for some because of overpushing on those accents.

Please feel free to practice RH only. Or LH can do Whole Notes. It's pretty hard to think of Charleston on the LH and Swing on the RH initially. Perfect each one inpendently first.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/25/08 12:36 PM

Here we are again - Day 2 --- many more hours of practice have been put in. It's a bit faster (at 80), plus I have added that swing. My mind kept saying to accent the offbeat and to lighten up that left hand beat 1. Funny how the mind can be thinking all of these things, but the finished product doesn't always sound as it should.

http://www.box.net/shared/qb6btmaskk

As always, feedback is most welcome.

Hey Rosa - thanks for posting. I'm glad you are tackling this project. I no longer feel so alone!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/25/08 12:53 PM

Not bad Barb! Not bad at all! You deserve the name Swingin' Barb.

So just shoot for a tempo over 100bpm. You have to get to the point where 150bpm is an 'average tempo'. Don't rush to get there since technique has to be built. As I mentioned before, as you play faster, the swing becomes less but the accent continues and then at 200bpm, there's no longer accenting as it starts to sound like 16th's.

A good medium tempo for Autumn Leaves is somewhere around 120bpm.

Keep practicing this you don't have to think about your swing. BTW listen to Bill Evans swing and it's just what you're doing but at a tempo of 150-180bpm.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/25/08 01:19 PM

Thank you, jazzweee. Funny you should mention Bill Evans. I do listen to him a lot. I've been thinking of him as I play this little scale exercise. The scale passage over the harmony reminds me of something he would play.I guess that is what has kept me glued to this exercise.

Yes, I'll be working up the speed on this exercise. Then I will tackle Autumn Leaves with RH swing and this LH comping rhythm. For some reason, it is easier for me to get the technique down with an exercise such as this one, as opposed to jumping into AL. But, I WILL get there!

BTW, this past summer my husband and I attended the Jamey Aebersold week long workshop. One of the piano instructors there had taken lessons with Bill Evans.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/25/08 01:37 PM

Barb, both you and your husband are doing piano jazz? In any case, having the hubby join you makes this a more fun experience.

The instructors at Aebersold are a Who's Who list so I'm sure they were all good.

BTW some of the stuff on this thread is meant to be practiced simultaneously. Like Swing is really something practiced continuously and for the longer term, regardless of what the tune is.

Another are the Walking Bass, 2+3 voicings, Rootless voicings. And not necessarily practiced over Autumn Leaves. Walking Bass for example, is easier to practice over a Blues progression.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/25/08 01:53 PM

Jazzwee - Those piano instructors at Aebersold were a bit mind blowing. During one of the master classes, you would think it was Bill Evans himself playing "My Romance"

My hubby is a jazz vibist. We plan on playing "out" together. I'm in the process of playing catch up with him. So glad this thread is here for me! \:D
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/25/08 02:03 PM

No doubt Barb. Names like David Baker, or Hal Galper are nothing to sneeze at. With a hubby to catch up with that must be very motivating!
Posted by: rintincop

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/25/08 03:24 PM

.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/25/08 05:49 PM

rintincop - Thank you so much for passing this on to us. It is an amazing station. I've bookmarked the page and have it playing now. Deciding what to listen to at dinner will be easy... we'll just turn up the volume on our computer speakers - what fun!
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/26/08 08:18 AM

OK...a new day, another attempt.

Jazzwee, you are right that it is easier to do it at a faster tempo to get that swing feel.

The first one here is just RH swing scale with LH holding the whole measure:

http://www.box.net/shared/hh03b4a888

Right swing?

While concentrating on the longer beat of the first 8th note, it is hard to accent the "+" of every other beat.


Next is RH scales with LH Charleston:
http://www.box.net/shared/hrh1lyiecs

Is Charleston rhythm steady enough?

Rosa
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/26/08 11:29 AM

Rosa, you've got it licked!

You've been working hard! Now the rest will come over time and you need to shoot for rock solid time. That's all technique.

As you can see, even when someone already has good piano technique, building jazz rhythmic technique/swing is completely different.

Just so you understand the difference, I would play this myself with less focus on the first note being longer. Mine would be more even. But this is personal choice. Listen to some of the earlier swing discussion and videos and you will have a better sense of what was discussed because you now know the basics. I would actually tap the rhythm of their swing as you're watching videos/listening and you will discover what the masters are actually doing.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/26/08 01:27 PM

That was great, Rosa! Keep up the good work.

Now, an unanswered question that you, Rosa asked above. Here it is:

Q: When we hit that 2nd beat of LH Charleston, is it supposed to come down slightly after the swing of the 2+ of the RH or do they come down together at the same time?

I guess either jazzwee or Chris can answer it.

I am still fighting with getting that left hand to come down a fraction after the right hand comes down at the 2+. Am I making things harder than it should be? It would be easier if I struck LH and RH at the same time. It does sound better, tho, when I play it a bit after the right hand.
Posted by: rintincop

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/26/08 03:28 PM

.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/26/08 03:46 PM

Thanks, rintincop - Would you be so kind as to post your rendition of the scale? (Lesson 8)

I learn quickly by listening. I would love to hear it at 100 bpm or 120 if that works better for you. ;\)
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/26/08 07:14 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Hi Rosa, you need to accent EVERY +. Not just 2+ and 4+. So it's every other beat.

[/b]
Now I'm confused,

if I play 8th notes, 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +, the 1 2 3 4 is a little longer and softer and the + is shorter with an accent. Right ??

Serge
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/26/08 08:32 PM

Serge, that's correct but in Rosa's earlier recording she swung only some of the notes.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/26/08 08:38 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
That was great, Rosa! Keep up the good work.

Now, an unanswered question that you, Rosa asked above. Here it is:

Q: When we hit that 2nd beat of LH Charleston, is it supposed to come down slightly after the swing of the 2+ of the RH or do they come down together at the same time?

I guess either jazzwee or Chris can answer it.

I am still fighting with getting that left hand to come down a fraction after the right hand comes down at the 2+. Am I making things harder than it should be? It would be easier if I struck LH and RH at the same time. It does sound better, tho, when I play it a bit after the right hand. [/b]
Ritincop gave a beautiful explanation. I will just add to it. In principle, the LH is the equivalent of the Rhythm section and its main function is to set the groove. Thus, the LH must be steady and exacting.

The RH plays in synch with this groove but it doesn't mean they play exactly at the same time. They play in a way that emphasizes the groove. In more advanced playing, the LH could drag the beat significantly and then get back on the beat. There's a Tension and Release effect with this.

But to do this, the LH and RH, or RH and Rhythm section must be solid as a rock first. Then later you can make all these time variations. Just note though that for dragging or getting ahead of the beat on the RH to sound good, it needs to go back to the beat often as it is tense to leave the beat.
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/26/08 10:27 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Serge, that's correct but in Rosa's earlier recording she swung only some of the notes. [/b]
OK thanks,

Serge
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/26/08 11:48 PM

BTW Rosa and Barb, it's pretty hard to do Charleston on LH and Melody on the RH. The usual style is to stab the LH chords at the right moments, like 1 and 2+ but only when the RH is quiet. So if you listen to the way I did it at the beginning, I did not always play the LH.

The point to the Charleston exercise is that chords swing by timing the stabbing to the appropriate beat (1 and 2+ in this case). If you listen to pros comp on their LH while playing on the RH, you'll see some that have extremely short stabs on the LH, similar to what I was doing. Or Brad Mehldau's style which is unneven lengths of chords depending on holes in the RH playing. Or sometimes Bill Evans will just play a whole note. So there's no fixed way but the general approach is to have the LH balance the RH in some manner that's musically appropriate.

So this exercise doesn't mean that you will play a steady Charleston beat on the LH at all times. Learn to leave a hole here and there when there's a busy RH part.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/27/08 07:09 AM

jazzwee - The LIGHT has turned on for me. The reason I wasn't attempting the AL melody with LH comping was because after seeing Lesson 8, I thought Charleston was to be played with the AL melody. I tried it and said WHOA. That is nasty! So, for the past few days, I've been trying to get the left hand Charleston down with the scale exercise ... with hopes that it would then transfer to the AL melody.

Stabbing chords at the right moments - of course! \:D

Thank you for your post.

AL here I come! (I'll still be practicing Lesson 8 to build up some speed.)
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/27/08 07:42 AM

\:\) Actually I find this kind of discussion & interaction and also handing in our midi assignments very helpful to our learning and progress.

If others are following this thread, do join in the fun because the more, the merrier.

I am not going to beat an ol' horse to death (ie. lesson 8)....LOL.... but to do this alongside with Autumn Leaves.

Barb, where are you in AL? I've done Lesson 1 & 2 and will start Lesson 3.

Please lead the way.
I am a better follower...hee hee.

Rosa
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/27/08 09:08 AM

Hi again - Here is my first try at AL with a left hand accompaniment of stabbing chords. Ok, so I delayed breakfast this morning until I started to get the swing of things ;\)

http://www.box.net/shared/kse3kt8g00

Rosa - I'm glad you're here with me. I have read through all of the lessons. I have some background in rootless voicings. Now that I have finally jumped into the AL melody, I will back track and spend time on each of the assignments for each lesson.

Like you, I joined up late in the game. I was too anxious to get my feet wet so I dove into lesson 8 thinking that was where I needed to begin.

So all - feedback please .... LH, RH ... where do I go from here on this tune?

Barb
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/27/08 12:47 PM

Wow, that was really swingin' Barb! Congratulations!

You're doing the RH correctly. The LH stabbing was also nice and comfortable. Just remember that you need to hit the 2+ on the stabs instead of on the beat. I know that's hard to think about and that's why you ingrain the Charleston practice. The 2+ will make the LH swing.

Other than that, you really got it. Your RH melody quarter notes were detached and the melody was played in a bouncy swing style.

I think you are ready for some soloing.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/27/08 01:03 PM

Thank you for the feedback, jazzwee. In my posted example, I used the LH form from the scale exercise in Lesson 8 (1-7, 1-3).

I'll assume I'm to use the same LH form when I experiment with soloing.

Onward I go ... such fun!
Posted by: rintincop

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/27/08 02:00 PM

.
Posted by: rintincop

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/27/08 02:08 PM

.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/27/08 02:22 PM

Thank you, rintincop. Would you believe I had to relisten to my playing to see what you were saying. In other words, I was totally unaware of a left hand pattern as I was playing it. I was just stabbing away, hoping it would make sense.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/28/08 01:55 AM

Combo Version of Melody[/b]

Here's my combo version of the Autumn Leaves melody. Rootless voicings on the LH. Listen to the syncopation on the comping which comes from Charleston timing. Played at 150bpm. Note that LH does not constantly comp and I fill in when the RH is quiet (at least that's the plan).

http://www.box.net/shared/bvpru4jk0w

I will see about getting the MIDI of this file posted tomorrow. The MIDI has 3 choruses of AL for soloing (with just bass and drums). Then you can slow down the MIDI for your desired tempo.

I made this on my brand new Yamaha Motif XS6. I'm just figuring the keyboard out.

Note that the melody is simplified compared to the sheet music version. Very common in playing AL.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/28/08 03:34 AM

On the LH syncopation, rather than thinking separately of the Charleston of the LH against the melody of the RH, I would suggest a tapping exercise where you count

 Code:
Beats | 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +| 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |
RH    | 1   2   3   4  | 1   2   3   4   |
LH    | 1     +        | 1     +         |
where + means the + of the 2. Feel that syncopation on the LH. When playing the chord, you can play the chord on '1' and '2+' short or long depending on the space you want to fill.

At full value the chords played on beat 1, or + of the 2 is a dotted Quarter. But the choice of the length of the chord when comping is fully a personal choice or based on emulating someone's particular style.

You can practice this exercise without a keyboard. Do it while in the car so you get the beat ingrained in your system.

When I was playing it, in hindsight I frequently ended up with 3 chord stabs each time which is actually + of 2, 1, then + of 2 again. That's because that's the empty space I was filling.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/28/08 09:25 AM

jazzwee, great stuff you are posting here. Congrats on your new family member ( the keyboard ).

I have a question regarding soloing. Would it be OK if I start out with the left hand just playing whole notes while my right hand searches frantically for the notes ... PLUS, trying to play those notes with a bouncy swing rhythm. This makes more sense than trying to put the 2 together at first. What is your take on this re: first attempts at soloing?

You've probably guessed by now that I tried those 2 hands together - it was NOT pretty!
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/28/08 11:08 AM

I was about to say, what's a rootless voicing? What's with teasing us with a technique we have not even learned yet? Then I went back to the index. Somehow, I completely missed that lesson. More catching up....

Congrats on the new board. I got an XS8 a couple of months ago too. Pretty sweet boards. Gotta love that performance mode. So many (more) things to learn tho. Hopefully, you've already discovered http://www.motifator.com.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/28/08 12:35 PM

Barb, playing Whole notes on the LH is totally kosher. Better yet is just play to the combo and DO NOT USE YOUR LEFT HAND.

Just like anything else, this has to be practiced separately. It's ok if it takes you a year to join the LH with the RH. This didn't come to me automatically either. But my point here is to practice so that eventually the LH will go on autopilot. Lots of technique to develop here.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/28/08 12:38 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:

Congrats on the new board. I got an XS8 a couple of months ago too. Pretty sweet boards. Gotta love that performance mode. So many (more) things to learn tho. Hopefully, you've already discovered http://www.motifator.com. [/b]
Thanks Deeluk, I had an S90 and S90ES before so I was already going to Motifator (though not lately). Do you know I specifically bought a workstation so I can post here? (this thread is getting expensive \:D )
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/28/08 01:06 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:

Congrats on the new board. I got an XS8 a couple of months ago too. Pretty sweet boards. Gotta love that performance mode. So many (more) things to learn tho. Hopefully, you've already discovered http://www.motifator.com. [/b]
Thanks Deeluk, I had an S90 and S90ES before so I was already going to Motifator (though not lately). Do you know I specifically bought a workstation so I can post here? (this thread is getting expensive \:D ) [/b]
Wow. I won't tell anyone if you don't. Have fun!
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/28/08 01:54 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Better yet is just play to the combo and DO NOT USE YOUR LEFT HAND.[/b]
Beautiful words and a sigh of relief \:D
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/28/08 03:35 PM

Hi Everyone: Iv'e mostly been a lurker in PW and just post occasionally, so hope it's OK if I join this thread. This Charleston rhythm and Jazz are both pretty new to me but I'm trying to learn and follow along.

I decided to come out of hiding and ask for help on whether I have the right idea or what I am doing wrong so I can practice correctly.

I just played this with no "frills" and pretty slow....can't do anymore at this time but am hopeing for feedback on what I need to do to be on the right track.

http://www.box.net/shared/g6cv1ltcsc

Everyone else is playing so well and so nice of Jazzwee and the others to be teaching this.

My thanks to all!

Alene
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/28/08 03:47 PM

Combo Backing Track With Melody - MIDI[/b]

MIDI File

http://www.box.net/shared/rjyes19okg
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/28/08 04:12 PM

Alene, Welcome! Your melody and LH shells sound great so you're on the right track. I'm very happy you've joined us.

Now progress to the next stage by working on the rhythm. At the beginning level just play the chords on the top of the measure (beat 1 as whole notes and make sure your melody lands in the right part of the measure. Look at the sheet music again. Your goal is to get the melody and chords synchronized. You can play this slowly, that doesn't matter.

For example, you'll need to time the 1st chord Am7 as in this illustration (think of the melody with the words):

 Code:
|  1   2   3    4    | 1   2   3   4  | 1
|      The Fal- ling | Leaves         | 
                       ^                ^
                       |                |
                      Am7               D7
Good luck!
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/28/08 07:12 PM

Here we go again. Here is my first solo attempt on AL.

http://www.box.net/shared/1n735zlusw

I did what you suggested jazzwee - RH only!

Feedback please.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/28/08 10:08 PM

Barb, that's good. Note choices fit the chords and there were spaces there. Now we need to slow you down a little. Put longer notes in (quarter notes and half notes). And put even more space. This gives you time to think of the melody in your head.

On the swing of eighth notes, make it less sing-songy (i.e. make the eights straighter) and don't forget to accent.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/28/08 10:15 PM

Lesson 10 - Beginning Solo Tips - Use Long Notes and Space[/b]

When I first did a solo for a teacher, the first thing I did (as probably all of us do), is play TOO MANY notes. And then it sounds a litle bit like a scale.

So the early advice I got was to first start off your development by using a lot of long notes (Quarter notes, Half notes), and just think of melodies.

Here's a short solo snippet where I had to concentrate on using long notes. To best do long notes, don't do AL too slow, otherwise, you will want to fill it in with too many ideas. As it goes faster, you really have no opportunity to cram too much stuff in there. This was played at 140bpm.

EXAMPLE 1:
http://www.box.net/shared/ziqj2zaww0

EXAMPLE 2: (EVEN SIMPLER)
http://www.box.net/shared/vegkoc4gk4
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/29/08 12:40 AM

I was just getting back to the rootless voicing lesson. Are those played 2 handed similar to the 2+3 style we learned? Or are these intended solely for the LH with the RH continuing the melody? Do rootless voicings work as comping chords or do you stick with the 2+3?
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/29/08 01:13 AM

For comping you can use Rootless LH only, or 2+3, and later Rootless BLOCK chords which is two handed.

But when you're soloing in a combo, you play LH only of course since your RH is busy. You can see me doing that on the recordings. Those are all live so you can see all the warts too \:D .
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/29/08 09:30 AM

Thank you jazzwee. You are a great leader and have given me lots to work on. Your solo example is just what I needed. I want to be able to play like that.

My natural tendency is to play with that triplet feel as opposed to straighter, but accented on the +, eighth notes.

ACTION TAKEN:
This morning I've been playing RH only with Lesson 8. I set the metronome to 260 so that it is clicking on the eighth notes. I put a lot of accent on the offbeats...probably overstressed it to get the point across to my fingers.
Next, I set the metronome to 130 to click on quarter notes. No problem there, Next, I set the metronome to 65 to click on 2 and 4. Big problem there. I'll stick with quarter note clicking a while longer.

jazzwee - I noticed in your Lesson 10 example that you covered 2 octaves. I'm just staying in one octave for now. My ears are not developed enough to jump around and know what it will sound like. This is where Band in a Box ear training will be most helpful.

Question re: Band in a Box. Do you recommend using their solo generation option for ideas?

If there are any lurkers out there tackling this solo business, PLEASE join in the fun and post. We need to share ideas.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/29/08 11:29 AM

This is Lesson 3A style with the LH shell voicing.

http://www.box.net/shared/sezcnebcw0

Is the RH swinging as it should, ie. marcato on those 2 quarter notes? I tried to play legato and then detached for the next 2 notes.

Jazzwee, many thanks for your continuing feedback & guidance.

Rosa \:\)

Al, how nice to see you here! Welcome to the party.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/29/08 12:19 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Thank you jazzwee. You are a great leader and have given me lots to work on. Your solo example is just what I needed. I want to be able to play like that.
[/b]
Just make sure you don't forget Barb that I'm just a student too so take my advice (and my playing) with some grain of salt. Rely on listening to the masters for your own verification. My interpretation is not the only possible one.

I thought about the solo I posted and I think I can simplify that even further. You need to start with the fewest possible notes so you get the tones in your head. I will see about adding a second example of Long Notes.

BTW this process is something I experienced myself as a student. Once I started with slowing down in note selection, it was a very quick step to play faster lines. Your brain has to adapt to the changess first.

Remember what I said in a much earlier lesson, initially target 3rds as the basis for your long notes. This will keep you in synch with the changes.


 Quote:

jazzwee - I noticed in your Lesson 10 example that you covered 2 octaves. I'm just staying in one octave for now. My ears are not developed enough to jump around and know what it will sound like. This is where Band in a Box ear training will be most helpful.

Question re: Band in a Box. Do you recommend using their solo generation option for ideas?
[/b]
It's easier to sound like you picked the correct tones when you do stepwise movements. So staying within an octave is quite fine.

No I don't recommend using BIAB solo generation. In the end it's going to have to come from your own mind. So it's good you have the guts to do it because it's the outside feedback that will teach you (from me and others).

To others following this thread and not posting a solo, a lot of the learning in jazz is from making the mistakes, sounding awful, having lots of timing problems, picking the wrong notes. But often you're not going to see this on your own. The outside feedback is really helpful.

Barb, in a short time you will notice rapid development so keep at it.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/29/08 12:49 PM

Is it just me? Box.net seems to always be down.
Posted by: Johan B

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/29/08 01:21 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Is it just me? Box.net seems to always be down. [/b]
Box.net? No problem........tuesday 29 jan 19.20h local time (Europe)

JB
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/29/08 01:40 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Just make sure you don't forget Barb that I'm just a student too so take my advice (and my playing) with some grain of salt. Rely on listening to the masters for your own verification. My interpretation is not the only possible one.[/b]
OK - jazzwee, you're a student, BUT, you are also leading the way. So, do you accept the term "mentor"? You are mentoring all of us 'jazzer wannabees' from utter darkness into the light.

Yes, I listen to the masters. It's one thing to know how you WANT to sound.. but, it's another thing to know what steps to take to get that sound. So, great mentor that you are --- you are providing those steps. Thank you!


Box.net is fine for me here in NC around 1:38 pm. In fact, each of the times I have posted, I never had a problem with it. Maybe you need to move to NC ;\)
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/29/08 02:46 PM

Thanks, Jazzwee for your comments. I will continue to work on it.

This is fun to learn how to do but lots of work before I learn and got a late start on this thread so lots of catching up to do.

Hi Rosa....happy to be joining you and Barb and everyone else that is doing this...
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/29/08 06:23 PM

MIDI of AL Combo Backing Track was modified. Prior version was missing voice/bank changes.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/29/08 06:32 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
This is Lesson 3A style with the LH shell voicing.

http://www.box.net/shared/sezcnebcw0

Is the RH swinging as it should, ie. marcato on those 2 quarter notes? I tried to play legato and then detached for the next 2 notes.
Rosa \:\)

Al, how nice to see you here! Welcome to the party. [/b]
Rosa, the melody is in pretty good shape. Sometimes you make the quarter notes too short but that's just occasionally as you are more aware of it it will be consistent.

Now the left hand is not on 4/4 for some reason. I would play with a metronome because the LH is on a waltz rhythm (3/4). Although I stab the chords 3 times on many occasions, note that I land still on one of two landmarks of the measure, Beat 1 or + of the 2. Now this is a little hard to master so start off with just whole notes on the LH (following a metronome). Once you're successful with that, then you can go back to Charleston. We just have to make sure you don't lose your count. Especially at this early stage, the counting is critical. By the time you get to the advanced level, you will have to know upbeats and downbeats by instinct since some advanced ideas come in related these.

Don't forget Lesson 9 (Playing in the Pocket). Hopefully everyone is getting started on that. That could take a couple of months to show solid improvement so it's important to start that early.

You're working hard Rosa and you're paying attention so you'll see solid improvement shortly.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/29/08 06:35 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Alene:

This is fun to learn how to do but lots of work before I learn and got a late start on this thread so lots of catching up to do.
[/b]
Don't worry Alene, most are still on the early Lessons. Barb has had jazz lessons before so she has a little edge over many.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 12:24 AM

 Quote:
Now the left hand is not on 4/4 for some reason. I would play with a metronome because the LH is on a waltz rhythm (3/4).
This is an eye-opener indeed!!!!

I thought I was playing 4/4 times. LOL!!!!

How did I manage to do 3/4 on LH and 4/4 on RH .

Thanks for pointing this out to me. I would have not known at all.

I will go back and just hit on the first beat for a whole measure and see what happens.

Rosa \:\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 01:40 AM

That's the spirit Rosa!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 01:49 AM

Everyone, please note that I added a second solo to Lesson 10. It's even more simplified. The idea here is to learn to solo just using very few notes first.

Pay attention specifically to the phrasing because there are some cliche phrasings that's part of the jazz vocabulary and you'll notice it not just in the way the notes are phrased (as discussed in the lesson on Phrasing), but also endings. For example, listen for repeated eighth notes and how they're specifically handled.

This stuff is simplified and I'm not using any fancy scales or dissonant harmonies. It's just simple melodies and if you just listen deep in yourself you can come up with it. Then the next step is to phrase it like jazz.

In the end, when you really know how to play, you will find that a lot of phrases are the same simple stuff but just played four times as fast. This is the meat and potatoes so to speak. Then from here one deviates harmonically and then you start breaking rules.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 01:52 AM

BTW - Thanks to Deeluk for fixing my MIDI file (backing track). There's so many people involved in this thread and everyone's helping to make everything a professional record.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 01:59 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
OK - jazzwee, you're a student, BUT, you are also leading the way. So, do you accept the term "mentor"? You are mentoring all of us 'jazzer wannabees' from utter darkness into the light.
[/b]
Barb, I think the fact that I'm a student of Jazz (as an Adult Beginner), is the perfect example of what can be accomplished. Just remember that I started Piano and Jazz only a little over 3 years ago. So, if I can do it, why can't all of you?

So I accept the job of a role model so all of you know this is something possible from adults. However, I will not lie to you, just like anything else, it takes a lot of work (and a good teacher).
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 02:26 AM

I've been following along eager to participate. I finally got set up to record (MIDI for now) and got an account at box.

Rosa2007 and Swingin'Barb your stuff is sounding great!

I started with 1/7, 1/3 in the LH and the melody in the RH. I tried really hard to stay pure this first time but I have to admit little variations and riffs naturally want to sneak in. But I really wanted to practice the LH as a rock solid rhythm that jazzwe refers to.

Anyway here it is:

http://www.box.net/shared/byagc3hgkg

It's late and I must sleep!
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 02:42 AM

Jazzwee, you only started playing piano 3 years ago? I can't believe it. Well if I can get that good within 3 years and be so jazz knowledgeable & playable I will be so happy!


Stagerson, welcome to the Learning party. This is LOTS of fun doing it together. We learn best learning from one another.

Rosa \:\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 02:48 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by stegerson:
I've been following along eager to participate. I finally got set up to record (MIDI for now) and got an account at box.

Rosa2007 and Swingin'Barb your stuff is sounding great!

I started with 1/7, 1/3 in the LH and the melody in the RH. I tried really hard to stay pure this first time but I have to admit little variations and riffs naturally want to sneak in. But I really wanted to practice the LH as a rock solid rhythm that jazzwe refers to.

Anyway here it is:

http://www.box.net/shared/byagc3hgkg

It's late and I must sleep! [/b]
Hi Stegerson, welcome! As far as the melody goes, I've said this many times so I'm sure you'll reread this over and over. Look at the Note Phrasing Link on Page 1. Quarter Notes are played detached (non-legato).

On your LH, notice that when you stab the chord on the LH, the 3rd chord stab is off time. So read up on the Charleston discussions. I would first start with playing whole notes on the LH and ease into Charleston.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 09:44 AM

Glad to see others joining the fun here. Welcome all!!

jazzwee, your latest solo version is so very helpful. I played it over and over until I could sing the 'A' section. I transcribed it, played it into Band in a Box, printed it out and notated the accents. Got my fingers copying what you had done.
Played this over and over and over.....

Next step - try my own solo once again... 'A' section only this time. Have I gotten rid of that Mickey Mouse triplet feel that I had in my first solo attempt?


http://www.box.net/shared/jdojnsuwwo

As far as my playing goes, it's funny that I hear what I WANT to hear, and not necessarily what I am actually doing. That's why I post a lot. I need to know how I REALLY sound.

ps - stegerson - I had to laugh with your comment
"It's late and I must sleep!"

You can forget sleep - jazzwee has created a monster here. I fell into this bottomless pit and life seems to have changed. This stuff takes lots of time ... but time worth spent.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 11:06 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
BTW - Thanks to Deeluk for fixing my MIDI file (backing track). There's so many people involved in this thread and everyone's helping to make everything a professional record. [/b]
No problem. Glad I could help. At least I'm doing something useful on this thread. I have every intention of posting my latest noodling attempts. I've got a decent backing track and I've been practicing with RH only improv. I'm having some technical difficulties at the moment converting the recording to something listenable. If worse comes to worse, I'll just post a MIDI file....

Anyway, keep up the good work everyone. Barb, your stuff is sounding great. Thanks so much for sharing. I thought the phrasing on your latest attempt sounded much better. We'll see what our mentors think. BTW, I hear 'ya on the metronome thing. Ticking on 2 and 4 really throws me for a loop too.
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 11:27 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:

As far as my playing goes, it's funny that I hear what I WANT to hear, and not necessarily what I am actually doing. That's why I post a lot. I need to know how I REALLY sound.

ps - stegerson - I had to laugh with your comment
"It's late and I must sleep!"

You can forget sleep - jazzwee has created a monster here. I fell into this bottomless pit and life seems to have changed. This stuff takes lots of time ... but time worth spent. [/b]
SB,

SO true about what you think you played vs what you actually did! Now that I'm wired in, I look forward to the critiques.

Yes, sleep. I get off work at 10:30 so the BEST time to play, without kids, is from 11 pm to ??.
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 11:40 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Hi Stegerson, welcome! As far as the melody goes, I've said this many times so I'm sure you'll reread this over and over. Look at the Note Phrasing Link on Page 1. Quarter Notes are played detached (non-legato).

On your LH, notice that when you stab the chord on the LH, the 3rd chord stab is off time. So read up on the Charleston discussions. I would first start with playing whole notes on the LH and ease into Charleston. [/QB]
Jazzwee,

I know exactly what you mean with the RH, I'll work on it.

In my mind, I was doing a 1 and a +2 with my LH. I'll read some more.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 12:10 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by stegerson:


from jazzwee: On your LH, notice that when you stab the chord on the LH, the 3rd chord stab is off time.

In my mind, I was doing a 1 and a +2 with my LH. I'll read some more. [/b]
stegerson - I think that 3rd chord stab jazzwee is referring to is really beat 1 of the next measure. That stab may be off just a hair....barely noticeable by us jazzer wannabees. ;\)

Of course, I may be way off base here. We'll just wait for our mentor to come on board.

Barb
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 12:35 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
As far as my playing goes, it's funny that I hear what I WANT to hear, and not necessarily what I am actually doing. That's why I post a lot. I need to know how I REALLY sound.
[/b]
That sounded a lot better, Barb.

As you develop, you will begin to hear better. Even now, listen to the phrasing I made. There's some subtlety there that I automatically do. Some notes are held longer than you think. There are little pauses, accents and such that are part of the swing feel. At the moment, you probably can't here tham. When you start hearing the little things, it will show up in your playing.

This is the same thing with time. As your ears notice when you're out of time (even a little), then your time improves.

A pro listening to my playing will have a lot to criticize too as I'm not yet hearing what they can hear.

So as a teacher makes you aware of what to listen to, that makes you improve. This is why it's helpful to post, regardless of how badly you think you're playing, because, you've got to learn to hear.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 12:46 PM

Tips on Creating a Solo[/b]

If you listen to my solos, you need to understand that it is completely improvised, warts and all. I have no idea what I'm going to play until I play it. That's taken in one pass.

It comes from hearing the melody in your head and not coming from fingers finding familiar patterns. It is harder to hear large intervallic jumps in one's head. So as an early exercise in this, stay close. Move stepwise, or no more than a 3rd first. Then attempt to memorize the sound of a perfect fifth. Lots of jazz movements of a perfect fifth going DOWN. Intervallic jumps of a full octave is pretty easy, and then move stepwise from there to recover yourself.

Here's another trick. Starting on a chord tone, move a half step away (up or down) then come back. Always come back. This anchors you back to the chord tone.

At the beginning stages, if you're going to make intervallic jumps, do it as arpeggios of the chord. This is always safe and Bill Evans did a lot of arpeggios.

Finally, anchor your moves to the 3rd of the chords. Remember the 3rd's exercise? You should have memorized those thirds in AL now. This will keep you in synch with the changes (which is really important).

All this is just to train the ear. And then hopefully you self generate your own melodies and the rules are set aside.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 01:07 PM

Today I did the most fantastic thing and got myself a new toy -- METRONOME.

It was so educational.....I thought it would be so easy to just get one and tick tock tick tock...

Well, there were so many to choose.
Of course I didn't get a traditional one.

I got one that had a human voice that would count out loud for me PLUS even some crazy looking rhythm patterns to fool around. Oh this should be interesting and not boring.

Jazzwee is going to have a shock to hear that I have been playing piano for 20+ years for my church and never owned a metronome. You probably wonder where I learned my piano -- in the no man's land of the greatest school -- DIY method (Do It Yourself). LOL!!! So my music world never had to count.

I recorded the following Autumn Leaves with LH shell voicing and only whole measure hitting.

http://www.box.net/shared/9ic88f5gcc

Keeping my fingers crossed that I am on the right track......ready for Charleston?

Rosa

The new mentra: It is late and I must sleep.
Off to bed.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/30/08 01:30 PM

OK Rosa, just a slight adjustment. The way you're playing the melody is slightly off on the first note. Start the 1st note an eight later. Your 3rd note is longer than the second note. They should be the same.

So the first melody 8th note should land on + of 2. Those who play the 1st note as a quarter note will start at beat 2 instead so changing the notes require moving the melody in the measure.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/31/08 01:21 AM

Jazzwee, your feedback is very helpful.

I understand what you are saying. Today I did it again but I turned off the human voice counting in the metronome so less interference to my feeling through the groove of the RH swing.

See if this is better:

http://www.box.net/shared/zog6zay804

So that everyone knows, the recording is Lesson 3A LH shell voicing with LH whole measure.

Rosa
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/31/08 01:49 AM

That sounds pretty good Rosa!

Now this is an 'advanced' feedback. To improve on this, don't rush the melody so much. Lay back a little. There's a term for how you're playing in jazz, it's called 'pushing' the beat. I'm giving you advanced feedback because you've done the basics successfully so we want to give it more liveliness. So the idea is to drag the RH a little from the LH. This is very slight, it's like making the RH a little lazy \:D .

This advice is for everyone by the way, not just you. If you took the exact MIDI of my version of the melody, you will find I don't play it to the exact proportions of the measure.

This is something done in jazz OR in Classical Music! (I was just watching an instructional video in classical and it was talking about the same stuff, including accenting). So music is universal it appears.

I don't know how to explain this, you'll just have to listen closely to the way I play the melody to see if you detect a little dragging.

In most straight ahead jazz playing, pushing the beat is uncommon. Typically dragging the beat is stylistically appropriate. Ritincop referred to this earlier and as he says the delay is in milliseconds. As my playing got more relaxed, it just happened naturally. You develop the ability to stretch things a little.

This isn't going to come easy but keep it in the back of your head that a jazz groove is a relaxed thing. Imagine the piano player having a conversation as he plows through some nice lines in a very easy going manner.

Think of some singer that drags their melody a little.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/31/08 02:44 AM

Jazzwee, your post is very interesting. I like 'advanced' feedback.

I am not sure which midi file you are referring to because so far I've only been listening to your mp3 -- AL simple swing melody -- to hear how you do the legato and the marcato.

Can you point me to which specific midi you are referring to?

Rosa
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/31/08 02:59 AM

Rosa, it's the Melody backing track MP3 on page 22 I believe. Before Lesson 10. I also posted it on Page 1 as AL Combo.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/31/08 03:01 AM

I just had to repost this again (since it is buried so far back). THIS IS WHY WE'RE DOING THIS THREAD. To get to 1% of this.

Keith Jarrett - Autumn Leaves (once again)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io1o1Hwpo8Y

Just listening to this again leaves me in awe. I don't think he repeated a melodic idea once.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/31/08 07:11 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
To improve on this, don't rush the melody so much. Lay back a little.
This is very slight, it's like making the RH a little lazy \:D .

Think of some singer that drags their melody a little. [/b]
Anyone out there remember Perry Como or Dean Martin -- or are you all just too young?

ROSA - good job! When you mentioned that you had a talking metronome, I wondered if that would be a distraction for you. Glad it's working out now. \:\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/31/08 11:26 AM

Barb, I doubt if any of us on this thread is too young \:D
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/31/08 12:25 PM

Good morning all,

Another day, another try.

jazzwee, I loaded all of your solo tips into my brain. As I was playing this, I incorporated as much as I could remember as I was speeding along at mm = 140.

http://www.box.net/shared/gwhm6lgg0s

I printed out the solo to see what I had played. I played a couple of 3rd jumps, 5th jumps, I went 1/2 step and back to the chord tone. I also tried to repeat an eighth note at an Em7 phrase ending (halfway into the piece.)

Looking at the Band in a Box printout, I see dotted half notes. I wish I held them down - they sound like eighth notes. Do you agree - it sounds too choppy?

Anyway, there is a lot to remember at one time.

I do feel an "after the fact" printout is most helpful at this point. What is your take on seeing the solo in print?

Thanking you in advance for much appreciated feedback.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/31/08 12:37 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Good morning all,
[/b]
Good grief - you can tell I lose track of time when I'm doing this stuff. I should have said "Good Afternoon" - it's 12:38 pm now in NC
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/31/08 12:56 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
I just had to repost this again (since it is buried so far back). THIS IS WHY WE'RE DOING THIS THREAD. To get to 1% of this.

Keith Jarrett - Autumn Leaves (once again)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io1o1Hwpo8Y

Just listening to this again leaves me in awe. I don't think he repeated a melodic idea once. [/b]
I'm awake!

Anyway, I finally found time to listen to this.
Outstanding! I had goosebumps at least half the time. I love the way Keith tries to stand a few times. Sometimes when I have an exciting idea or I am doing something very satisfying, I feel a real urge to move!

I hope to submit more AL pieces on vampire time tonight.

-Ted
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/31/08 01:34 PM

Barb that's pretty good! I'll listen more carefully later to elevate you to the next level but you are really improvising there.

(sometimes work gets in the way ;\) )
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/31/08 05:03 PM

I concur, you're all showing improvements, wow!

For soloing, I have some pointers. First; the piano. Yes I know it's very obvious, it's the instrument of our choice. But it also a finger instrument. and as we pianists tend to go, we forget to breathe when doing a solo. And by not breathing we play to many notes, all over the place (I know I tend to).
Exercise: (it's easier to "get it" if you have a BIAB or a metronome playing a beat/bassline) Start the song, don't play anything, close your eyes and hear/follow the song; resist the urge to play.

Now (with the metronome/BIAB playing, start your solo. But, do it when you exhale. So, take a deep breath, and play your solo whilst exhaling. When you have to inhale, don't play. So inhale and then exhale=play solo. (all the time your metronome/BIAB is just chugging along). Do this exercise several times.
The idea is to start to listen not only to the notes you are playing but to your breathing.
The exercise could transform to breath in 1 bar, breath out 1 bar. Or 2 bars. All depending on tempi.

and remember, Jazz is a living art, it's a true American art form.

“beware the prevailing view of “jazz” as some kind of history lesson that you have to sit through because it’s good for you… Understand that it is a living art from whose most esteemed practitioners are constantly evolving and engaging with the world around them.” - Vijay Iyer
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 01/31/08 09:56 PM

\:\) I've been taking your advice and trying it again, and again, and again, LOL! Am I getting close yet? On the 2nd time thru I tried to put in the chord (sometimes) on the + of 2, otherwise I just played on the first beat, I hope!

Turning on that recording button can sure cause a lot of nerves and mistakes that you don't always make. \:o

Appreciate any comments on what I need to do.
Edit: oops, forgot to include the link!

http://www.box.net/shared/6es9owp8o8


Thanks!
Alene
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 12:24 AM

OK, here's my improv attempt. This one was from a few days ago. I intended to post this as an MP3, but I'm still having tech difficulties. Stuck with MIDI which loses a bit in translation. Unfortunately, it doesn't improve my playing whatsoever. Anyway here it is:

http://www.box.net/shared/o651edd8ow

Since I recorded this, I've really been focusing on jazzwee's solo attempts and am trying to incorporate those ideas into my playing. Somewhat at least. In this post, my phrasing is horrible. I tend to put the accent on the downbeats instead of up. I've been working on this a lot and it is getting better. I really have to concentrate on it tho. Not natural at all. Plus, I seem to play the same thing over and over.

I'll post more attempts soon. I'm falling way behind Barb in the posted recording category. Great job Barb! You're sounding great! Quite an improvement in a really short time.

Back to practicing...
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:38 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by stegerson:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
I just had to repost this again (since it is buried so far back). THIS IS WHY WE'RE DOING THIS THREAD. To get to 1% of this.

Keith Jarrett - Autumn Leaves (once again)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io1o1Hwpo8Y

Just listening to this again leaves me in awe. I don't think he repeated a melodic idea once. [/b]
I'm awake!

Anyway, I finally found time to listen to this.
Outstanding! I had goosebumps at least half the time. I love the way Keith tries to stand a few times. Sometimes when I have an exciting idea or I am doing something very satisfying, I feel a real urge to move!
-Ted [/b]
Ted, I have high hopes for you with your good taste in music \:D Waiting on those postings...
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:45 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:

Another day, another try.

jazzwee, I loaded all of your solo tips into my brain. As I was playing this, I incorporated as much as I could remember as I was speeding along at mm = 140.

http://www.box.net/shared/gwhm6lgg0s
[/b]
OK Barb, let's get to working on getting you to the next level. One thing that will improve your sound is to play those whole and half notes LOOOOOOOONG. Don't cut them short. The nice sounds comes from the contrast of long notes against short notes.

So to review:

1. Eight Notes - Legato, Swung, Accented.
2. Quarter Notes - Detached, not completely legato.
3. Half Notes/Whole Notes - Long and full value. Let 'er ring...

That's on the phrasing side.

Generally you picked notes that matched the chord. Now try this new exercise of picking ONLY chord tones. By chord tones I mean 1,3,5,7. Again slow it down first (i.e long notes). And add neighboring tones but focus on the chord tones. Then let's see what happens to your sound.

I'm not going to give you too much but get this right, and you'll have come a long way.

This is just an initial step. There's a lot to go here.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:50 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Alene:
\:\) I've been taking your advice and trying it again, and again, and again, LOL! Am I getting close yet? On the 2nd time thru I tried to put in the chord (sometimes) on the + of 2, otherwise I just played on the first beat, I hope!

Turning on that recording button can sure cause a lot of nerves and mistakes that you don't always make. \:o That's some solid improvement there. Now just a minor minor phrasing point, just play those quarter notes short. Again not too short but definitely not connected/legato. That'll give that part of the melody some bounce.

I know I've repeated this a million times already but this is one of the tasks in jazz is to learn the phrasing.

Timing was fantastic. Nothing to criticize there.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:58 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
OK, here's my improv attempt. This one was from a few days ago. I intended to post this as an MP3, but I'm still having tech difficulties. Stuck with MIDI which loses a bit in translation. Unfortunately, it doesn't improve my playing whatsoever. Anyway here it is:

http://www.box.net/shared/o651edd8ow

Since I recorded this, I've really been focusing on jazzwee's solo attempts and am trying to incorporate those ideas into my playing. Somewhat at least. In this post, my phrasing is horrible. I tend to put the accent on the downbeats instead of up. I've been working on this a lot and it is getting better. I really have to concentrate on it tho. Not natural at all. Plus, I seem to play the same thing over and over.

I'll post more attempts soon. I'm falling way behind Barb in the posted recording category. Great job Barb! You're sounding great! Quite an improvement in a really short time.

Back to practicing... [/b]
Very good Deeluk! Now you may not think that but in it's simplicity you picked the right tones. It's heavily focused on thirds. So automatically you can't go wrong. Now from here venture out further with stepwise movements close to the same notes you picked (in the scale), up or down. Again stepwise only so you don't feel lost.

On the phrasing, you can cut the sing-songy lines. Meaning you're eighths are too short. It's sounding like a sixteenth + a quarter, or sixteenth + a half note. Play your eights longer. I said early on to not focus on swinging as much as the accents. This is why, because, everyone, including Barb originally, will tend to exaggerate it. Swing is light and relaxed.

If you listen to my solo, again, I was swinging but I'm not exaggerating (and I was not playing it 'straight').

You're going to develop from this very quickly.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 02:02 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by chrisbell:
Exercise: (it's easier to "get it" if you have a BIAB or a metronome playing a beat/bassline) Start the song, don't play anything, close your eyes and hear/follow the song; resist the urge to play.

Now (with the metronome/BIAB playing, start your solo. But, do it when you exhale. So, take a deep breath, and play your solo whilst exhaling. When you have to inhale, don't play. So inhale and then exhale=play solo. (all the time your metronome/BIAB is just chugging along). Do this exercise several times.
[/b]
Excellent advice Chris My teacher had me do this too as the operative word was TOO MANY NOTES \:D

So hopefully, even I improved with my solo examples since I DID NOT play too many notes.

Doing these lessons remind me of what I went through with my teachers. And it gets imprinted in my head more.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 03:11 AM

Now that I can swing rightly with my RH, I tried to do the Charleston on my LH. I did a few recordings and listening to them, I was surprised to find that I was sometimes doing the Charleston beat on the 2nd beat or on the 3rd and not steady on the + of the 2.

So I decided not to do the melody tone and just play the guide tones of the RH and concentrate on the LH.

I recorded a few times and found that my Charleston beat was not steady at all.

This recording is the 10th time and I wonder if I am able to get the LH groove.

http://www.box.net/shared/8r6hsiko4k

Rosa \:\)

YES BARB....you are leading the way for sure. I need binoculars to see you ....I want to eventually do solo improvisation too. But I want to get the basics down and firm before rushing on.

Deeluk....good to see you submitting your recordings. This is GREAT FUN to hear one another

Al...you are doing GREAT too.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 03:38 AM

Actually you almost have it right Rosa. Delay the second stab a little more. Just make it a little lazier. Your beat is sometimes almost at 2+, then occasionally it goes back to 2 but leaning more towards the 2+. If you stab shells on the RH on the even beat 1 and 2, then you should have a noticeable delay in the LH on 2+. Try it by tapping as I described earlier. I just want you to emphasize that delay more and you're there.

Now listen up everyone -- It is not necessary to master either swing or Charleston to improvise[/b]. In the end they get combined but you can improvise just even at ballad speed and straight notes. Or whole notes on the LH.

This is independent practice. I really recommend just whole notes on the LH or NO LH (use the Midi files for comping). Practice improvising with RH only.

Preferrably not too slow (140-150bpm), to force you to pick long notes first. It is actually harder to improvise on a ballad since you have more notes to fill.

So Rosa, try it out. I think you're ready.
Posted by: lizzy's dad

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 04:10 AM

jazzwee,

I get it! Man, do I get it.

I know, it's probably hard for you to believe, but I had never heard of Jarrett. I came across a reference to him in another post, which had links to some of his videos on YouTube.

He is amazing. A-MAZING!

Man, I wish I was good enough to hop on to this thread and tag along. You know I'll be looking for this thread in about a year.

Thank you for this gift.

Practice, practice, practice...

l's dad
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 04:44 AM

I am so THRILLED about your response Jazzwee.

Thank you for being so prompt. So all these things can go alongside.

I REALLY REALLY WANT to get on to improvising.

I will do both at the same time.

Rosa

Welcome Lizzy dad......post something for us to listen. \:\)
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 06:07 AM

jazzwee, can you phone my piano teacher and please explain to him exactly when Mozart rewrote the Dmin Fantasy to sound suspiciously like Autumn Leaves... I have to say though, he took it very well, although I suspect he'll keep teaching the original...

\:\)
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 11:04 AM

Hi Fellow Classmates and Mentors,

Chord tones - this has been a trip. An extremely enjoyable 3 hour trip.

You may ask - well, why did it take so long? The reasons:

I printed out each solo - Sometimes I wasn't hitting chord tones. I kept wanting to play a D natural for that B7 (ouch).

Next, I was hitting those chord tones, but I was not happy about how I was playing my quarter notes - they were too legato.

jazzwee - Here it is. Thank you again for your help.

http://www.box.net/shared/d99tkpuwwo


Chris - I tried that breathing exercise last night - I got light headed from all that oxygen on my inhales. PLUS, I noticed that at the exhale, I kept starting with descending passages - too funny!

Alene and Rosa - fantastic progress!

deeluk - thank you sooo much for diving into this solo business. It gets easier the more you do it.

TED - WAKE UP!

lizzy's dad - I'm looking forward to you joining this party.

LaValse - come on and post (PLEASE)
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 11:21 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
I just had to repost this again (since it is buried so far back). THIS IS WHY WE'RE DOING THIS THREAD. To get to 1% of this.

Keith Jarrett - Autumn Leaves (once again)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io1o1Hwpo8Y

Just listening to this again leaves me in awe. I don't think he repeated a melodic idea once. [/b]
Yes absolutely fantastic! For me, maybe 0.01%. And that will be a stretch.

What are those chord runs he's doing around 0:50 I think? Are those block chords? I don't want to get ahead of our lessons here, just wondering what I'm hearing.

I love how he has the lead sheets (presumably?) sitting inside the piano. Like he really needs them ;\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 12:52 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by LaValse:
jazzwee, can you phone my piano teacher and please explain to him exactly when Mozart rewrote the Dmin Fantasy to sound suspiciously like Autumn Leaves... I have to say though, he took it very well, although I suspect he'll keep teaching the original...

\:\) [/b]
Hey man, I'm a dummy with regards to Classical...but I could think of a lot of tunes that follow the Circle of fifths like AL. This is one of the reasons I suggested this tune. It's a building block to so many compositions.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 12:56 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by lizzy's dad:
jazzwee,

I get it! Man, do I get it.

I know, it's probably hard for you to believe, but I had never heard of Jarrett. I came across a reference to him in another post, which had links to some of his videos on YouTube.

He is amazing. A-MAZING!

Man, I wish I was good enough to hop on to this thread and tag along. You know I'll be looking for this thread in about a year.

Thank you for this gift.

Practice, practice, practice...

l's dad [/b]
OF COURSE your're good enough! I learned AL as my first piece of music. I didn't even know a single chord at the time. My first teacher just wrote out the notes like I did here.

After 1 year, you should be able to play rings around AL. ;\)
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 12:57 PM

Thank you Jazzwee...you are a fantastic teacher to listen to all these and take the time to tell us each what we need to do to improve. I certainly appreciate it and this is SO much fun! What a fun place to be!

Everyone is doing so well and so much fun to listen and hear the progress.

Barb, thanks for the comments, and you are leading the way, girl! You are making great progress.

Deeluk, you are also doing good with the soloing. This is very encouraging for me to hear the progress both of you are making.

Rosa and I are trying to get to that point too...Rosa you sounded good!

Hope more join in and Jazzwee your help is terrific! :3hearts:
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:08 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Chord tones - this has been a trip. An extremely enjoyable 3 hour trip.
http://www.box.net/shared/d99tkpuwwo

(PLEASE) [/b]
Wow! That's some major improvement there! That's pretty amazing. All in a few days. Excellent work

I now hereby give you this award
STUDENT OF THE WEEK[/b]

Nothing like a few chord tones to shape up a solo.

Now let me add some new things for you as you develop this further.

1. See that you land on these chord tones on the downbeat. And you can play anything else on the upbeat (extension chord tones or half step neighbors).

2. When you develop a melody, stick to it and expand on it on the next line. It sounds great when it is connected. As you can see here, it isn't the number of notes that make a good solo. It's making it memorable.

3. I want to teach you something new in your phrasing to make it like jazz vocabulary. In your solo, you will find yourself ending a lot with Short-Long notes. I believe Eighth+Half. Sounds good. Now in jazz, it's common to also use Long-Short. Like Quarter+Eighth. Then you chop off the eighth with a rest so it ends abrubtly.

4. In general when ending a line with an eighth (whether a stream of eighths of just one by itself), the eighth is chopped off with a rest. So lift your finger from the key. This will jazz up the feel of your lines.

It's so exciting to see how quickly you are developing here (which I forecasted). Reminds me of myself when I started.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:20 PM

Phrasing/Swing Lesson[/b]

This is easy. All you have to do is listen to this same video again.

Keith Jarrett - Autumn Leaves
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io1o1Hwpo8Y

I just want to see if you can pick out a few things.

1. Listen to the way he plays the eighth notes. There's no exaggerated swing. Listen to the accent. Sometimes he does it more. Usually it's very light.

2. Look at phrase endings. Lines ending with eighths or quarters. If he ends with an eighth it is cut short, if he ends with quarter (and longer) notes it is played long. This applies to endings only.

3. Listen to ending combinations. Long-Short, or Short-Long.

4. See him drag his lines slightly from the main pulse of the rhythm section.

5. Listen to the breathing (meaning space). Now Jarrett is an underwater diver. He can go longer without breathing that normal mortals).

6. Listen to the shape of the lines. How he keeps changing the direction (up or down).

Now this is pretty fast playing so I don't mean for any of you to emulate that. It's just convenient to point out phrasing here since this video is already posted.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:26 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by lizzy's dad:

Man, I wish I was good enough to hop on to this thread and tag along.
l's dad [/b]
The only thing you need to hop on this thread is motivation. Sounds like you already have it, l's dad. So, listen to jazzwee and hop on board. \:D
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:28 PM

Jazz Homework[/b]

Since you are all Adult Beginners, I can assume you can spend a few bucks on some music (especially you Deeluk with your fancy Motif XS8 \:D ).

I found a unique version of Autumn Leaves while listening to the local jazz radio one day.

Album: Somethin' Else
Leader: Cannonball Adderly
Miles Davis
Hank Jones
Sam Jones
Art Blakey
at the Blue Note

(I got mine from Itunes).

Barb, you'd be able to transcribe this. All the lines are just simple. The whole thing is along the lines of Miles Davis style. Very laid back. As far as I'm concerned (and the DJ of the jazz station), this version is just amazing. You'd learn so much transcribing this. Pretty easy too. Even last night I just tapped out what they were playing on the piano. The solo lines are so long and slow that you'd have no problems at all.

This is something that beginners can tackle. No don't start transcribing Jarrett in the video. \:D
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:31 PM

Well, I've been practicing.

When I listen to this, I'm a tad late on some of the &2 LH. Also, I think I'm crossing too close to staccato instead of non-legato in the melody.

http://www.box.net/shared/h21ltm94ok

I think I understand what to do, it really does take practice to get it right!
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:33 PM

jazzwee - Thank you for such quick and thorough feedback.

I now hereby give YOU this award
MENTOR OF THE WEEK[/b]

This next step may take a while to incorporate all of your suggestions into my playing.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:34 PM

Ted (stegerson), this is easy to fix. Now tap the pulse (i.e. 1234). You'll clearly see where your LH is landing. You're doing 1, 2, 1+. Melody is great and just make it non-stacatto like you say. You're in great shape here. Good job!
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:35 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Jazz Homework[/b]

Since you are all Adult Beginners, I can assume you can spend a few bucks on some music (especially you Deeluk with your fancy Motif XS8 \:D ).
[/b]
Hey, my kids don't need to go to college do they?

I'm a CD buying kind of guy. $7.97 for a remastered version over at amazon. http://tinyurl.com/2lx2f3 My order will be placed momentarily.... Need to get some other new CDs anyway.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:39 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
]Hey, my kids don't need to go to college do they?

I'm a CD buying kind of guy. $7.97 for a remastered version over at amazon. http://tinyurl.com/2lx2f3 My order will be placed momentarily.... Need to get some other new CDs anyway. [/b]
Yeah, tell them to get off their butts and get a job to help Dad out (so he can buy some more keyboard gear). \:D
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:41 PM

For the last hour I was reading the recent posts and listening to the recordings on 'solo'. I thought it will be months before I can start soloing so I never bothered reading the recent posts and just stuck to the beginning pages.

Tonight, everytime I was about to turn off my computer, another post appears -- did you guys notice that this thread has been jumping.

I am now a bit caught up because I want to do SOLO.

But it's almost 3AM....I am losing sleep staying in this thread.....

But I want to tell EVERYONE here especially JAZZWEE how INSPIRING you have been to me and to everyone else here. You are really the BEST in your coaching to each one of us step by step.

You are really paying attention to help each one progress to the next level and I can really HEAR each improvement in recent Barb's recordings because of your close coaching.

WAY to Go Barb.

And also thanks to all those who are posting your recordings. I listen to each one to learn from your recordings and the feedback given by our mentors are superb!!!!

THIS IS SUCH A GREAT CLASS. I AM SO INSPIRED.

Rosa \:\)

But 'it is late, I must sleep now.'

I don't usually stay up in these late hours....but while it is tucking in my heart, I must say the above to all of you.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:47 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
1. See that you land on these chord tones on the downbeat. And you can play anything else on the upbeat (extension chord tones or half step neighbors).
[/b]
jazzwee - When you say "downbeat" - Do you mean the strong beat of each measure as in beats 1 & 3, whereas the upbeats are beats 2 & 4 (along with the ANDs of course.)


OR
Do you mean to land on the chord tone for EACH beat - 1,2,3,4? And play anything else on the AND of each beat?

I hope you can follow my confused mind here
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:49 PM

Also I am upset & find it incomprehensible why there are others using their time to criticize this thread.

What's wrong with them?

Rosa
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:49 PM

Also I am upset & find it incomprehensible why there are others using their time to criticize this thread.

What's wrong with them?

Rosa
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 01:57 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
1. See that you land on these chord tones on the downbeat. And you can play anything else on the upbeat (extension chord tones or half step neighbors).
[/b]
jazzwee - When you say "downbeat" - Do you mean the strong beat of each measure as in beats 1 & 3, whereas the upbeats are beats 2 & 4 (along with the ANDs of course.)


OR
Do you mean to land on the chord tone for EACH beat - 1,2,3,4? And play anything else on the AND of each beat?

I hope you can follow my confused mind here [/b]
2nd One is correct. 1,2,3,4 are downbeats. Upbeats (offbeats) are the &'s.

This one is difficult to do Barb, but you are ready for it.

Once you learn to put the chord tone on the pulse, you can go off like Jarrett with half steps and still get back in line. It does take awhile to build this.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 02:02 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
Also I am upset & find it incomprehensible why there are others using their time to criticize this thread.

What's wrong with them?

Rosa [/b]
As far as I know, we've only gotten criticism from one 'chappie'. So forget about them. What's important is that we have fun learning (even without the sheet music).
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 02:30 PM

Don't waste your time on other threads, Rosa. We're using lead sheets here (melody and chord symbols). That's all any jazz improviser uses.

Possibly others are just jealous ;\)
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 03:34 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
Hey, my kids don't need to go to college do they?

I'm a CD buying kind of guy. $7.97 for a remastered version over at amazon. http://tinyurl.com/2lx2f3 My order will be placed momentarily.... Need to get some other new CDs anyway. [/b]
Yeah, tell them to get off their butts and get a job to help Dad out (so he can buy some more keyboard gear). \:D [/b]
You know, what I should have said is, looks who's talking. Mr. 1917 rebuilt Hamburg Steinway. -AND- a Motif XS6. Shessh! I'm over here banging away on my rickety old Wurlitzer spinet. My XS8 is my Steinway \:\(

I do have my eye on an Access Virus TI next ;\) Don't tell my wife. Or my kids... I think they call it "G.A.S.".
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 03:36 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
Also I am upset & find it incomprehensible why there are others using their time to criticize this thread.

What's wrong with them?

Rosa [/b]
As far as I know, we've only gotten criticism from one 'chappie'. So forget about them. What's important is that we have fun learning (even without the sheet music). [/b]
What? Who? Where? Let me at 'em.... Why I 'otta... Grrrr... This thread really is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Criticism? No way.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 04:48 PM

Yep Deeluk, I'm very familiar with GAS. I was at the store intending to buy a cheap PSR and walked out with an XS6. But I have an excuse. I needed a workstation to demonstrate some stuff on AL \:D
Posted by: bluekeys

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 05:17 PM

Hi guys,
I've been playing hookey for a while, since I decided to concentrate on my classical stuff this year and wait until my chops are a little stronger before veering off into popular styles.

Even so I still spend a few minutes a day on jazz and blues, so today I recorded a new AL. No big whup. Just another shot at the elusive swing rhythm. There's a few wrong notes and missed beats, but this was the best (or least bad anyway) of today's attempts.

http://www.box.net/shared/ll3qtm4u8g

Hats off to you dedicated jazzers. I'll stop by now and then to see how you're doing. LOL!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 05:25 PM

Nice RH Bluekeys! You certainly got that licked.

Regarding Classical vs. Pop, I never studied Classical (at least not with a teacher). The chops issue is the same in either style, as I discovered when playing classical.

Perhaps what we can contribute here is improvisation. Just look at everyone's excitement once they actually started to improvise. It's a bug let me tell you. Some people will just be driven by it.

So if the bug hits you, we're here...
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 06:00 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:

I found a unique version of Autumn Leaves while listening to the local jazz radio one day.

Album: Somethin' Else
Leader: Cannonball Adderly
Miles Davis
[/b]
I did a YouTube search. I believe this is it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-3x-dSHKew
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 06:10 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
 Quote:
Originally posted by LaValse:
jazzwee, can you phone my piano teacher and please explain to him exactly when Mozart rewrote the Dmin Fantasy to sound suspiciously like Autumn Leaves... [/b]
Hey man, I'm a dummy with regards to Classical...but I could think of a lot of tunes that follow the Circle of fifths like AL. This is one of the reasons I suggested this tune. It's a building block to so many compositions. [/b]
The circle of fifths was first described by Johann David Heinichen, in his 1728 treatise Der Generalbass in der Composition.
Not sure if it was in the autumn though . . . :p
Sorry couldn't resist that one!
Yeah, the circle has been around for quite some time, it's an extremely important discovery, Mozart got it from his studies of course, he like so many others at his time learned it by studying the masters; like Bach. (Mozart was a huge fan of Bach).
I'll post 16 bars from a rondo by Mozart tomorrow, it's incredible, sounds like song Michel Legrand wrote, or an improv by KJ.

The CoF is really really important to study and learn.
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 06:37 PM

Solo tip:
Something that jazz soloists use is patterns. Patterns are mixed in with scales, arpeggios, licks, etc.
Practicing patterns is a good aid for soloing, but it can make a solo fall on it's feet if used to much.

A pattern could be something like this:

and applied to AL:

another way to use this pattern in creating one's own exercises:


This pattern is known as 1-2-3-1
(as always, swing the eight notes):
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 06:52 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:

I found a unique version of Autumn Leaves while listening to the local jazz radio one day.

Album: Somethin' Else
Leader: Cannonball Adderly
Miles Davis
[/b]
I did a YouTube search. I believe this is it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-3x-dSHKew [/b]
Yep. That's the right one

Pretty easy to transcribe, right Barb?
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 06:56 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Ted (stegerson), this is easy to fix. Now tap the pulse (i.e. 1234). You'll clearly see where your LH is landing. You're doing 1, 2, 1+. Melody is great and just make it non-stacatto like you say. You're in great shape here. Good job! [/b]
If I look at my playing in general, I'm a bit sloppy about holding notes to full value or placing them exactly where they need to be.

Just for clarification, are most of my LH stabs on target with only a few missteps? I just am making sure I'm not completely wacked on hearing the &2 upbeat!

Here's another quote, "it is no trivial feat becoming your own metronome!"
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 07:10 PM

stegerson, your LH was consistent so your time was good. But it's just in the wrong spot. So like I said tap or even count aloud while you do it. Just listen to your recording while counting aloud and the positioning will be obvious to you. So from Beat 1, Beat 2, to Beat 1+ is not correct. Correct way is 1, 2+, repeat...

As far as hold notes, etc., that's phrasing and this does not come automatically. It's like a new language. It only comes from regular practice and listening so you hear lines that way. So I wouldn't worry about that side. I thought your RH was very good.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/01/08 07:29 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Pretty easy to transcribe, right Barb? [/b]
You gave me a hefty assignment, jazzwee. Transcribing will have to stay on the back burner for a while.

What I like doing, before I transcribe anything, is to listen until I can sing the part. So, I'll be doing a lot of listening when I'm not working on all those solo tips. \:D
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/02/08 12:23 AM

Barb and others, I just want to add something that hasn't been said. So far, I've just told you to solo using the G Major Scale, Chord Tones, and neighbors, which is a very simplified concept.

Later on we will discuss in much more detail what scales can actually be played for each chord. This can be much more complex and I'm afraid offers a multitude more of note choices. As you can see you can come up with good solos using the simple concepts I've discussed.

When playing more complex Jazz tunes like Stella by Starlight, All the Things That You Are, Dolphin Dance, Invitation, Giant Steps and so on, simply addressing soloing as chord tones isn't going to work too well. The reason for this is the constant modulation of key. In many tunes, you're only in a key for one bar. In this case, the theory helps one visualize the scale choices to generate some structure to the solo.

Fortunately, AL is simple enough that it can be be played with one scale. The Blues is also simple enough but beyond this a lot of knowledge of scales will be necessary.

But that's for later...

One just can't noodle jazz and you're learning the basic thought processes to creating good solos...
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/02/08 07:29 AM

As promised. 4 bars of Mozart. No notes have been added. The phrasing is all Mozart's. This is from a rondo composed (I would say improvised) 1786. Check out the melody notes, just as Jazzwee has described to you earlier. (I've added the chord analysis). It's in the key of Fm (Ab).


Also; check out the pattern M uses: 1-3-2-1 and how it connects to the ninth of the chord.

Ok. Here's in the key of Em (AL):
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/02/08 08:41 AM

Chris - Very cool indeed That was definitely an eye opener. Sounds great over Autumn Leaves. Thank you for sharing.
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/02/08 01:13 PM

Let's try this:

http://www.box.net/shared/f5ys0fack4

I finally input the song by hand into Anvil so I could hear it the pattern very clearly.

Even if this isn't 100%, I plan on trying some of the other lessons this weekend for diversity sake.

I really appreciate this thread!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/02/08 01:59 PM

You're getting close Stegerson but it's actually not bad even the way it is. RH is PERFECT. So no issues there.

This is how you see what you're doing. Starting counting 1234 on the word 'Leaves'. And then listen to where your chord comping lands.

I hear it at 1 and 3. Sometimes at 1 and almost 3+, but this variation could just be because we don't have a metronome going. This comping style is fine but the 2+ gives it that off time swing. You don't have the 1+ issue from before now so you're almost perfect with this.

You need to tap your fingers as I laid out in an earlier post to clearly see where the LH has to be offset from 2.

Here's another approach I'm going to invent for you right now.

Say: Chick[/b]-Chick-A[/b]-Chick-Chick, (repeat). While you're doing this tap an even 1234 with your RH.

Kind of like the sound of the Drum Hi-Hat. Hit the chord on the bolded word. You can't do this in isolation. It's the relationship with the RH that embeds it into your memory and is also a hand independence thing.

Ted, you can practice this simultaneously while going into other lessons. No need to just work on this. And you're really close here.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/02/08 02:35 PM

Ted - Let me pass on a little practice trick I did for that LH rhythm.

Set the metronome to 120, or slower (I think I set it to 80 when I first started). The clicks will be for eighth notes. So, there would be 8 clicks per measure - 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & .

The LH will strike on click 1 and 4. Of course, you will be playing twice as slow as what you are doing now, but, at least the left hand will get used to striking at the correct moment.

Then, keep increasing that metronome speed and gradually set it for quarter notes. If your eighth note speed was 120, then set the quarter notes for 60. If all goes well, inch it up to your normal speed of 120.

Hope this doesn't sound too confusing. This is the approach I took.
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/02/08 03:36 PM

\:\) Hi gang: This is my first attempt at a solo improv so looking for some more guidance before I keep practicing in the wrong way maybe.

I used the rhythm section but played the shells in my left hand and improvised with the right. I'm not sure this is what I'm supposed to be doing so can use all the help I can get. :rolleyes:

http://www.box.net/shared/brahk1hs80
Thanks!
Alene
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/02/08 06:14 PM

Good for you Alene - Welcome to solo land. I have not yet added the left hand when I improvise. Right hand by itself is challenging enough. You are definitely brave to try it hands together.

Keep up the good work \:\)

ps I'm sure jazzwee will give you a bunch of great tips.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/02/08 06:25 PM

OK, finally back in business generating MP3s. Here's the track I've been using to practice RH only improv. It's a smorgasbord of practice sessions. This one has 2+3 chords on a tonewheel organ in the background with my improv over the top. I intend to add some rootless practice comping in there as well. Anyway, my latest improv attempt trying to incorporate more of the ideas here.

http://www.box.net/shared/oaxda5lsk8
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 12:49 AM

Alene, very nice! Another true improvisation! Good job!

OK how do we improve this? First is it possible to record the LH comping and rhythm so you're just doing your right hand? That would be better. When soloing, especially early on, the LH isn't necessary. Usually you have to be advanced to actually solo with the LH going.

When you record next time, see if you lower the volume of the Rhythm section so the melody on the RH sticks out.

Now you forgot to accent your offbeat eight notes so the swing disappeared. I know, you're busy concentrating on the notes \:D but try to maintain those accents.

Then give it another try. This time with full attention to the RH.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 12:55 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
OK, finally back in business generating MP3s. Here's the track I've been using to practice RH only improv. It's a smorgasbord of practice sessions. This one has 2+3 chords on a tonewheel organ in the background with my improv over the top. I intend to add some rootless practice comping in there as well. Anyway, my latest improv attempt trying to incorporate more of the ideas here.

http://www.box.net/shared/oaxda5lsk8 [/b]
It's really exciting when you guys improve 100% with every attempt. It's amazing. At this pace, you'll see major development in short time.

I see you're getting more confident here Deeluk. You are all hanging together here development wise.

So now it's time to attempt what Barb did which is to shift to using Chord Tones. 1,3,5,7 of each chord. Use only those for now.

Next don't forget to accent the eighth note offbeat.

Another thing that I want you to try, is do not start your phrase on beat 1 of each chord. Try doing it on the beat before (beat 4 or beat 4+), referred to as a pickup note. This is important advice because the phrases will feel boxy if started always on the first beat. Occasionally it's fine but repeatedly, it will sound boring.

Good job Deeluk. Gotta put that expensive synth/workstation to use \:D
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 01:16 AM

\:\) Thanks Jazzwee and Barb for your comments and now I know what to work on.

Everyone is doing fantastic and just hope I can learn this too. \:\)
Alene
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 01:32 AM

Alene, what sort of setup are you using? If you have a keyboard with a built-in sequencer, you can put your LH comping on one track, then play it back and solo over it. I loop a 32-bar track for AL and just practice over and over. And over and over. And over... \:\)

Or, just take the combo MIDI file jazzwee posted a while back and load that into your sequencer. Mute the piano track and play your stuff over that. Let us know and we'll help you figure something out.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 10:50 AM

jazzwee - This has been a challenge. It has taken hours and hours this weekend to finally land on those correct tones on the offbeats. In fact, I have one error in this one - and I'll let you catch it ;\)

http://www.box.net/shared/ohnv5y1skg

It was hard trying to get some swing into it as I was so worried about those upbeat tones. I tried to accent the eighths, detach the quarters and release those eighth notes a few times for that staccato phrase ending. Lots to think about at 140 bpm.

Even though I made that one offbeat error, it is an improvement for me --- I had been making 5 - 8 errors in my other tries.

This has been tough. What do you suggest for improvements?
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 11:19 AM

Well....look what happened. I was just away for one day....and a few pages down already and 3 great solos handed in.

Good job Deeluk, Alene and Barb!
You are all sounding GREAT.

OK...Here is my first attempt of a solo:


http://www.box.net/shared/ik9tp0fk88

Unfortunately I don't have all these fancy rhythm background music you have, so mine is very clean -- straight RH solo \:D .


Rosa \:\)
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 11:19 AM

Barb, that sounded pretty good to me! I missed the error. I liked how you played through the quick 2 chords/measure change. I always fumble around with that one.

I was struggling with this last night too. I was asking myself constantly, "Were those eighths or quarters? Which ones were on the up and which ones were down? Did I even hit chord tones?". If I just played simple 2 or 3 note phrases, I could get it right sometimes. But man, it was tough. More practice....
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 11:21 AM

 Quote:


Even though I made that one offbeat error, it is an improvement for me --- I had been making 5 - 8 errors in my other tries.

Barb -- you only have ONE error?

Mine is full of errors.

Oh well...that's part of the FUN -- hide all my errors.

Rosa :p
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 11:56 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
 Quote:


Even though I made that one offbeat error, it is an improvement for me --- I had been making 5 - 8 errors in my other tries.

Barb -- you only have ONE error?

Mine is full of errors.

Oh well...that's part of the FUN -- hide all my errors.

Rosa :p [/b]
Rosa, great job! You're ahead of the game playing the LH and RH together in your solo. When I try that, everything falls apart. So, don't discount your achievement here!
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 12:44 PM

\:\) Hi: Deeluk, I have a Roland KR-5 digital piano and I know you can do different tracks and stuff but I haven't a clue (guess maybe I should read the book?) as to how to do it. I have a floppy drive but can only record into it and don't know how I could record the left hand and rhythm and then record over the top of that.

The same with using Jazzwee's combo, how would I download it and still be able to record? It's probably simple but something I've never done so sounds complicated.LOL! Sort of like playing Jazz style and improvising....Whew, this is hard!

I'll read the book and try to figure it out but all help is appreciated. Thanks Deeluk.

Rosa and Barb....Those were terrific recordings! You both sounded great. Everyone seems to be learning so much.
Alene
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 12:55 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
I was struggling with this last night too. I was asking myself constantly, "Were those eighths or quarters? Which ones were on the up and which ones were down? Did I even hit chord tones?". [/b]
Deeluk, Rosa, Alene, Ted --- It helps to print out your solo. That is the only way to see where things are going wrong.

When I said that I hit a wrong note, I saw it in the printout. I was on an Em7 chord and hit a d# on the downbeat.

I highly recommend the software program called Band in a Box. (the cheap version for $129 is all you need). I hit the print button for each solo and I can see what I played. I feel that the rhythm part of things is made easier with the bass and drum set going.

Rosa - Great first solo! I haven't even tried both hands with improv stuff.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 01:10 PM

Barb, I did notice that you stiffened up on that last solo, which is to be expected due to the new intellectual challenge. Yes I do know where you missed the chord tones. It's great that you stepped up to the plate on this. Later today I will give you some tips on how to think this through. But it is a very important exercise because eventually you STOP thinking about chord tones and your ear will just select them naturally.

Even Jarrett's complex solo was clearly anchored to chord tones on downbeats. Not all jazz solos are based on this approach but this is the "ear training" I speak of.

Anyway, I'll write up a lesson about this later today.

In the meantime (if you're practicing, do solos using ONLY chord tones), same instruction I gave to Deeluk.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 01:11 PM

P.S. to ALL:

RE - Band in a Box. My techie husband just told me:

To record into Band in a Box with your digital, you will need a midi cable and a midi interface to your computer.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 01:13 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:

OK...Here is my first attempt of a solo:


http://www.box.net/shared/ik9tp0fk88

Unfortunately I don't have all these fancy rhythm background music you have, so mine is very clean -- straight RH solo \:D .

Rosa \:\) [/b]
Excellent work Rosa! I see you're being imaginative by coming up with some actual melodies/patterns. Good coordination with LH/RH.

I'll give you some tips later on moving to the next level but this is a very good
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 06:12 PM

Lesson 11 Solos - Chord Tones on Downbeats[/b]

Chord Tones are very important on solos because these tones outline the chord changes. In a book by Hal Galper, he describes a good bebop solo as one where you can tell what the changes are even when there's no rhythm section. When I say chord tones here, I'm referring to the main chord tones and not the extensions (1, 3, 5, 7 of the chord not including 9, 11, 13 and their alterations).

In order to emphasize the changes, the chord tones are placed on the downbeats (beats 1, 2, 3, 4). Other tones are played on the '&' of each beat. I think the most important one is a chord tone on beat 1.

But here's the rub. Not all jazz is played using using these major chord tones on downbeats and in part it is a stylistic choice often based on the melody of the tune or style of Jazz. Certainly, this style is characteristic of bebop but is less used on tunes with slow solos using very long notes (ala Miles Davis), or tunes based on a melody that's based on extensions (the Tune Invititation comes to mind). So this is a building block and a starting point but is not the end-all.

In order to deviate stylistically, I was taught to first start with the rules. Once you have mastered the rules, then you can feel free to break them. So to make my initial forays into improvisation less random, I was taught to start playing Chord Tones on downbeats.

This is developmentally very important because it trains the ear to create lines that are in synch with the changes. It also makes naturally melodic lines.


Where to Start - Use Only Chord Tones/Arpeggios[/b]

The easiest way to implement chord tones on downbeats is to first solo using ONLY chord tones. Again I mean the 1, 3, 5, 7 of the chords. You arpeggiate the chords as eighth notes. You can create patterns using chord tones.

Bill Evans used a lot of chord arpeggios and chord patterns, even on his version of Autumn Leaves.

Here are some example patterns (all are eighth notes and in a single octave, and the numbers below are the position of the chord tone - 1,3,5,7).

3 1 3 5 7 5 3
5 1 3 5 7 5 3
3 3 1 5 7 7 5
and so on.

The point is that it doesn't always have to sound like an arpeggio and repeated notes are cool.

Stepwise Moves[/b]

Now let's expand this a bit. We will now approach movements by a WHOLE STEP.

Did you realize so far that any ODD numbered move of steps within an octave always keeps you in a chord tone if you start on a chord tone?

Simple case: Go from A, to B back to A. 3 notes but you don't lose your place when synching with chord tones. Or go from A, to B, to C, to B, to A. I went up and down and I'm back to the same chord tone. This only works when moving a step in the scale (no skips).

A more complex example, let's say you're playing Am7, the first chord. Am7 is A C E G (1, 3, 5, 7). Think of starting on any of these notes, but only move within the range of these notes for now A to G.

Now let's start at A and create an 8 note line for the whole measure. This goes from A to E then goes back down.
A[/b] B C[/b] D E[/b] D C[/b] B

I bolded the chord tones. I ended up with B on the upbeat and I'm still in synch. Since the next chord is D7, I will have to start a new chord tone again. D7 is D F# A C (1,3,5,7).

D[/b] E D[/b] E F#[/b] E D[/b] C

The next chord is G7 which is G B D F. So a sample line could be

B[/b] C D[/b] C B[/b] A G[/b] A

The point of this exercise is to show that that you can move stepwise up or down and you will be in synch with downbeats. (However, later you will discover that this doesn't work when you cross an octave, for which there's a solution).


Half Step Moves[/b]

Same concept as above. You can plan out your moves to neighboring tones to always land on a chord tone.

For example:
A[/b] G# A[/b] A# A[/b]
D[/b] C# D[/b] D# D[/b]

In 5 moves, I'm back to a chord tone and in synch with the beat.

Don't these ornaments look familiar? Used a lot in classical music. Did one in Chopin recently.

Or
D[/b] C# E[/b] F F#[/b]

Here E is an extension and not a major chord tone but it doesn't matter when you're moving chromatically and landing on a chord tone. In other words, I don't necessarily implement this to some strict rule rather than more of a guideline. (And neither do the masters).


Bebop Scale[/b]

The above examples showed lines relating only to a single chord at a time. In real playing, the phrases cross chords and in Bebop playing, the lines go up and down. Since playing multiple chords often require crossing octaves, someone discovered that you do not always stay in synch with stepwise moves because a typical scale is not symmetrical.

So someone invented a BEBOP SCALE. In order to with a chord tone on the downbeat, you need a scale with 8 notes (an even number). In Autumn Leaves, the scale is G which has 7 notes (G, A , B , C, D , E, F#). A smart guy decided to an extra note to the scale to create an even eight note scale. The Bebop scale will add the extra note as a b6 (in this case D#). So a Bebop scale version of G Major scale would be (Extra passing note is bolded).

G A B C D D#[/b]E F#

Now if you go up and down using an ODD number of steps, you will land on a chord tone on a downbeat, assuming you start on a chord tone.


Putting it All Together[/b]


So here's a simplified soloing approach to creating eighth note based lines.

1. Use the Bebop Scale. When using the Bebop scale, move stepwise.

2. Use Arpeggios and chord patterns. This gives you skips in 3rds.

3. Then apply some half step (neighbor tone) moves using examples laid out above for ornamentation. This gives you the half step moves.

4. Move in Perfect Fifths or Octaves. Something we discussed in an earlier lesson.

Combine all these for variety.

You'll be surprised how 'bebopy' you'll sound with all of these together.


Don't Start Your line on the Downbeat[/b]


To avoid having boxy sounding lines, target your preferred starting chord tone but start playing your line on a 'pickup' (i.e. an eighth note ahead), by using a non-chord tone or approach tone a half step away on the UPBEAT.

Start your lines on any '&' of a beat using a non-chord tone so that the next note IS a chord tone. This is not a hard and fast rule but if you listen to the masters, they will seldom start lines always on beat 1 as all beginners in Jazz will play.


Caution! Take a Breath![/b]

The problem with teaching this approach is that you could theoretically make continuous lines with no stopping of eighth note solos, like what you expect from Bebop.

But realize that actual Jazz lines are SHORT. You need to take a breath as Chris and I have been emphasizing since the beginning.

Slow down. Repeat notes. Repeat ideas. Give space. More notes doesn't equal to a good solo.

Maybe start your solo with some rests. Resist the urge to put a note in on the very first beat.


Don't Forget to Swing[/b]

Remember that the core of jazz is the swing in Eighth notes so this is the time to put that accent on the '&'s of the beat to bring that syncopation in. No need to exaggerate the swing, just focus on very legato sound with accents.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 06:17 PM

Barb, Rosa, Deeluk and Alene,

Using the above lesson as a guide, start first with applying Chord Arpeggios, and chord tone patterns to your solos. Get comfortable with that first. Meaning, I'm not expecting everyone to apply the entire lesson in a single attempt.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 07:03 PM

jazzwee - I had to laugh when I read your:

Caution! Take a Breath!

By the time I got to that point, I needed a breath. Lots of great stuff you have there. WOW! I'll be busy for a while - but starting on chord tones as you say.

One question comes to mind. At this point, do we play solely eighth notes for our lines? No quarter notes, dotted quarters, half notes. In other words, no syncopation? The way I understand it, we play only eighth notes and accent each &

You are one fantastic mentor!!!!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 07:52 PM

Barb, in the early exercise, we started out with long tones. This is to get the confidence that one can create nice simple solos with long tones.

This is now about the heart and soul of jazz which is eighth notes. A typical jazz line is probably 75% eighth notes (sometimes it's even 90% - depends on who's playing).

This is where the swing feel is felt the most. And this is where that fast feel of jazz bebop comes from. Sixteenth notes are seldom used in jazz. Smaller notes are very rare in Straight Ahead.

Jazz is played fast by increasing the tempo. You're still playing 8th notes but at 300bpm they sound like ultra fast 16th notes (if you can even play that fast).

To get you to relax a bit and not get too stressed about eighth notes, feel free to mix it in with quarter notes.

When practicing 8th note lines, you can slow down the tempo of AL. Somewhere around 110-120bpm is good for slow eighth lines where the changes aren't coming at you so fast.

The ability to react quickly to chord changes is something that takes time to develop and you build it tune by tune. Many fast Bebop tunes will change chords every two measures. Or a tune like Donna Lee that's played upwards of 180bpm.

I'm just saying this to make you aware of where all of this is leading. You need not worry about high speed playing for awhile. It's not necessary right now. But you can see why some of these thought processes need to be automated.

No one ever said Jazz was simple right \:D
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 08:09 PM

The concept of Chord Tones on downbeats is discussed fully in this PDF book by Hal Galper called "FORWARD MOTION". You can buy it Online for $16.97 apparently (I remember buying this for $25 before \:\( ). It's good reading and you'll hear it frequently recommended on Jazz sites.

http://www.forwardmotionpdf.com/

This same concept is discussed by a lot of Jazz educators like David Baker, Barry Harris, Shelly Berg and is referenced in many other jazz books.

BTW - you might also get a number of jazz musicians who do not believe in this approach. Suffice it to say that this is the codification of the Bebop approach. If one wishes not to sound like Bebop then I supposes one has no reason to follow this.

For me personally, I've learned to apply it and also learned when to take an alternate approach but I think it was important for me to understand this first.
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/03/08 11:56 PM

Wow, these instructions are just so helpful and makes trying to learn this so much more fun. Jazzwee, we do thank you for all your time and effort you are putting into this. :3hearts:

You do have a knack for explaining and making it clear what to do (even if I have a hard time doing it, LOL)....you make a great ...want to say teacher...but I'll go with MENTOR like Barb did.

Thanks again!
Alene
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/04/08 12:02 AM

Yeah, Jazzwee, we all owe you one huge....something. I had a big response written up to this, but realized, I'm a little drunk. The Super Bowl, you know. What you're doing for us here, I cannot thank you enough. I'm going to dive into your suggestions in earnest tomorrow when I can play again.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/04/08 12:36 AM

Sometimes I wonder if I can be understood guys. I'm explaining completely differently from how I learned this.

I'm parcelling it out in slow motion so we don't discuss too many issues that may not be relevant in one's early development (like scales and modes).

So in a way this is an experiment. Please let me know if something is unclear as it is difficult to get this right the first try.

In a discussion on the internet on a old jazz site called JustJazz.com, it was argued there that theories of scales/modes can be explained via the simple explanation of chord tones and neighbors. I don't necessarily agree with this but I have to admit that with this explanation, one can come up with some good jazz lines, so why complicate it for now?

Maybe later, we'll meet up with traditional explanation (in modern times at least). But we'll see how this goes first.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/04/08 12:42 AM

One other thing. I would bet strongly that the idea of chord tones on downbeats would be found in Classical music to a very strong degree. This must be a standard music theory concept (just never articulated before).

Any classical experts there to provide input? It is often said that the only real difference between Jazz and Classical is really the rhythm and articulation (swing/syncopation).
Posted by: tm3

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/04/08 10:06 AM

a fascinating thread! thanks to everyone, especially jazzwee, for putting this together.

i'm late to the party, and after reading the entire thread i feel kind of overwhelmed. jazzwee, what is your prescription for attacking this, i.e. first learn AL with 1/7 shells, then start on soloing, or instead go to 1/7 and 1/3 then learn the rhythm, then soloing, etc.? it will seem more manageable taken in steps.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/04/08 10:50 AM

Jazzwee and AL Gang,


 Quote:

Sometimes I wonder if I can be understood guys. I'm explaining completely differently from how I learned this
We understand you perfectly. The best teachers are those who are able to sift through their learning and bring out the GEM. And that's what you are doing.

While I know the 1357 of chord tones and the downbeats and the step wise and half step movement, I am not aware of the different ways of doing the arps with the repeated notes. They do sound good w/o taking too much brain power.

Jazzwee, before I download the pdf version, I have the jazz improvisation for keybaord players (complete edition) by Dan Haerle -- do you recommend following this one?

Also have you seen this free jazzlesson on bebop improvisation.

http://www.jazzpianoonline.com/improvisationtheconcept.html

Rosa \:\)
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/04/08 11:57 AM

Jazzwee - RE: Lesson 11.

After having fun with Chord Tones this morning, I went on to stepwise moves.

That B7b9 is drivng me crazy
I keep wanting to play C# rather than C. That C# has been ingrained into my fingers for a B7 and it is rebelling big time.

So - should I:
1. put the metronome to a very, very slow speed and make my fingers play that C natural
OR
2. Play the C#

Hey tm3 - welcome to the party! \:D
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/04/08 12:14 PM

Here is my recording back to Lesson 3 Style B with RH swing and LH Charleston (Hopefully getting closer)

http://www.box.net/shared/a00c6pzr4w


Rosa \:\)

Welcome TM3. No need to feel overwhelmed. I was a late comer too. Just reading the thread is overwhelming but once you follow from one lesson to another and hand in your midis, I found it so EZ to pick up. Before I knew it, I was onto solo. But I am still doing those early lessons alongside, like lesson 3 now.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/04/08 12:15 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by tm3:
a fascinating thread! thanks to everyone, especially jazzwee, for putting this together.

i'm late to the party, and after reading the entire thread i feel kind of overwhelmed. jazzwee, what is your prescription for attacking this, i.e. first learn AL with 1/7 shells, then start on soloing, or instead go to 1/7 and 1/3 then learn the rhythm, then soloing, etc.? it will seem more manageable taken in steps. [/b]
Take it slow TM3. You're not that far behind. Most everyone started only a month ago. Lesson 1 is the place to start.

But soloing can begin immediately after. The rhythm is harder to figure out if it is new so you can always just add it in slowly. Nothing wrong with soloing without rhythm first.

Good luck tm3.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/04/08 12:19 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
Jazzwee and AL Gang,


 Quote:

Sometimes I wonder if I can be understood guys. I'm explaining completely differently from how I learned this
We understand you perfectly. The best teachers are those who are able to sift through their learning and bring out the GEM. And that's what you are doing.

While I know the 1357 of chord tones and the downbeats and the step wise and half step movement, I am not aware of the different ways of doing the arps with the repeated notes. They do sound good w/o taking too much brain power.

Jazzwee, before I download the pdf version, I have the jazz improvisation for keybaord players (complete edition) by Dan Haerle -- do you recommend following this one?

Also have you seen this free jazzlesson on bebop improvisation.

http://www.jazzpianoonline.com/improvisationtheconcept.html

Rosa \:\) [/b]
Forward Motion is a very specific explanation and is very unique. It can work with other books. It is not really beginner's level but I think everyone here can handle it.

For so little money it's excellent information.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/04/08 12:31 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Jazzwee - RE: Lesson 11.

After having fun with Chord Tones this morning, I went on to stepwise moves.

That B7b9 is drivng me crazy
I keep wanting to play C# rather than C. That C# has been ingrained into my fingers for a B7 and it is rebelling big time.

So - should I:
1. put the metronome to a very, very slow speed and make my fingers play that C natural
OR
2. Play the C#

Hey tm3 - welcome to the party! \:D [/b]
Hi Barb, AL aside why is there a C# in your B7b9? How do you actually voice a B7b9?

B7b9 is actually the same as a Cdim. So the notes are C Eb Gb A. So 7b9 chords = Dim chord a half step up.

A B7 doesn't have a C# either unless your specific memorized voicing uses it. That may be the issue is you're using memorized voicings. Something that would break as you use shells or 2+2 voicings discussed earlier.

It took awhile but now I'm able to see the intervals immediately and no longer rely on memorized voicings. And it came from using alternate voicings.

I haven't really discussed this yet but the scale for B7b9 is:

Half-Whole Diminished
B C D D# F F# G# A

For F#m7b5 it is:

Diminished Whole Tone
F# G# A B C D E
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/04/08 12:35 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
Here is my recording back to Lesson 3 Style B with RH swing and LH Charleston (Hopefully getting closer)

http://www.box.net/shared/a00c6pzr4w


Rosa \:\)

[/b]
You may need to slow it down with a metronome like Barb said earlier. You're playing 1, 2, 2.

Gotta count 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & when doing this ;\)

Good luck!
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/04/08 12:46 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
AL aside why is there a C# in your B7b9? [/QB]
The problem stemmed from doing lots of dominant scale practice for several months last year. I would fly through that B7 scale with my C#.

OKAY - slow that metronome and put in that b9.

Thank you for that great explanation regarding those diminished scales. \:\)
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/04/08 11:40 PM

Apparently, I was counting 1 2 3 4 for my RH swing but that doesn't work too well for the LH because for LH I need to count 1+2+...etc. Now I know where the problem is.

Jazzwee for lesson 3A&3B, you said that for solo we will use the 3B style more. When will I find occasion to use the 3A style then?

I am interested in playing the cocktail style and you said we could arpeggiate the 3 notes slowly on the LH. (1, 7, 10 or 1, 5, 10). I can do 1 5 10 as the fingering is easier. Is it better to arpeggiate 1 7 10 to get the 7 in the LH?

What will be the rhythm of that LH arpeggiating?

Rosa \:\)

I've downloaded the pdf book. It is very interesting & good exposure to build up our skill. It also has audio sounds to go with it.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 12:33 AM

Rosa, LH Arpeggiation in a solo piano style would be all on the downbeats and would be played Rubato. Whether to use 1 7 10 or 1 5 10 is up to your reach and also which note you're playing. Apparently you have long fingers as I can only do limited tenths (white notes only). So this is not something I do often.

If Ritincop is reading this perhaps he can give a better answer.

3A is 1/7-1/3 fingering for ii-V which is used in a later lesson on Comping (Lesson 9?). I you're playing a solo on the RH or doing arpeggiations, then the LH, would just stick to 1/7's as in 3B, because 3A needs help of the RH.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 01:26 AM

OK. I went back to the beginning pages and ploughed through the posts and could not find the answers to the following 2 questions:

1. To do the 1/7 and 1/3 shell on LH, is there a strict rule that 1/7 has to be the minor chord and the 1/3 shell has to be the V7 chord? Or we just feel our way through what is comfortable when we make the changes?

2. I remember reading somewhere Jazzwee talks about cocktail improvisation with an easy RH shape using 3 5 9 easily but I can't find what that handshape is.

Rosa
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 01:47 AM

1/7 to 1/3 is specifically a voice leading approach for ii-V chord progressions using Shell voicings. So is it a strict rule? No since there are alternatives but it is a popular motion using shells because it has less hand motion than a strict 1/7 at all times.

Solo piano using the 2+3 voicings (which are 2 on LH and 3 on RH), is where you'll find reference to 3 5 9 on the RH. These are comping chords. However they can be mixed in with solo piano.

In the Lesson on Rootless voicings, that is also used in Solo piano style by hitting a bass note, then the rootless voicing higher up (modern stride version).

Lately when I play solo piano, let's say of AL, I would mix the following styles within one tune:

1. Shell 1/7's, with the melody and soloing
2. Rootless Voicings with occasional bass (typically once every two measures on AL).
3. In between melody notes, I'd also do 2+3

The only style I personally don't do much anymore is walking bass in solo piano.

I don't do this much but as another approach over what's been mentioned, you could play the melody using 1 5 8 on the RH for each note. Ritincop is an expert on this sound and is used a lot Red Garland.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 02:00 AM

Let me expand on what I do when I play shell voicings for solo piano (i.e. what I'm referring to as #1 above.

I don't actually just play 1/7 on the LH and my RH has more than the melody or solo line.

I will make the LH play 1/5/7 or 1/3/7 (and you can mix 1/10 here too but due to strain, I don't use it a lot). So I have a fairly full sound on the LH. I might mix in arpeggiation or just straight chord playing of the shells.

On the RH, I want to make sure the 3rd is always voiced so it is often on the fingers 1 and 2 of my RH. If 3rd is already voiced and I have an extra finger I will typically play the 9th too, particularly with minor chords (so b3 and 9 on my 1st two fingers). I do a lot of this with the tune My Romance. Very jazzy effect because of the dissonant interval.

If I'm doing a line on the RH, you can sometimes squeeze in the extra chord tones during a quiet moment in the melody or solo for effect. So if I have not been playing the 3rd, I'd insert it in between. Often I will also withhold the inner voices on the LH and play only the root and the top note and then syncopate the middle voices in the middle. Hard to explain but it makes the tune sound like it's in 2/4 instead of 4/4 with the middle voices going in later in the measure.

This is not a lesson description so it is not well thought out but this is a little summary of the stuff I've learned to do.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 02:06 AM

Thanks jazzwee for your explanation. Telling me your thought process is as good as those well-thought out lessons. \:\) My direction is very clear now. I have not gone to rootless voicings yet but I want to try out cocktail improvisation because that is something I want to master.

Rosa
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 02:16 AM

Rosa, jazz improvisation in solo piano isn't really "cocktail" piano especially with all these sophisticated jazz voicings. Let's refer to it as jazz ballad playing. ;\) I play like this all the time and I love it because when you slow down the tempo, you can really work on sixteenth note runs. Something that doesn't get much play in medium swing.

As an exercise, we should all play solos in ballad tempo, with Rubato time to see if you get different ideas when you slow it down. Doing ballads well is actually quite challenging, which is why it is fun to do.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 03:42 AM

Can you guys believe that someone just blasted the rating on our thread and my own rating?

Did we bash anyone on this thread? Did we attack anyone? Or is it someone who just doesn't like jazz? Speak up whoever you are!

What a weasely thing to do. Here's a thread without a word of disagreement from anyone, it's purpose completely to help people and some childish person rates it down to make a point.

THERE'S NO POINT IF YOU DON'T SPEAK UP.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 06:42 AM

I am in complete shock here, jazzwee. I have been a member of ABF for 2 years and until this thread came about, I had posted a total of 14 times. Since I joined up with this thread a few weeks ago, my post count has jumped to 61, I am that excited.

This thread is THE BEST THING going on in ABF. You are doing a remarkable service for all of us who have always wanted to learn jazz, but never knew how to begin.

I agree, it was some childish person. And I thought this was a forum for adults.

BTW, How is a thread rated? I assumed it was strictly by the amount of daily traffic.

Jazzwee, you are the greatest!


 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
some childish person rates it down to make a point. [/b]
Posted by: chrisbell

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 07:28 AM

at the bottom of this page to the left you'll find a "Rate it!" drop-down menu.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 07:57 AM

Thanks Chris.

To All - check out this KJ video:

http://www.pcplanets.com/videoyoutube-Keith-b-Jarrett-b-.KiWchoEo2Vw.shtml

I grinned ear to ear as I watched it - my heart started beating faster. Jarrett at his best. Such fun to watch and listen to. \:D
Posted by: tm3

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 08:53 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Let me expand on what I do when I play shell voicings for solo piano (i.e. what I'm referring to as #1 above.

I don't actually just play 1/7 on the LH and my RH has more than the melody or solo line.

I will make the LH play 1/5/7 or 1/3/7 (and you can mix 1/10 here too but due to strain, I don't use it a lot). So I have a fairly full sound on the LH. I might mix in arpeggiation or just straight chord playing of the shells.

On the RH, I want to make sure the 3rd is always voiced so it is often on the fingers 1 and 2 of my RH. If 3rd is already voiced and I have an extra finger I will typically play the 9th too, particularly with minor chords (so b3 and 9 on my 1st two fingers). I do a lot of this with the tune My Romance. Very jazzy effect because of the dissonant interval.

If I'm doing a line on the RH, you can sometimes squeeze in the extra chord tones during a quiet moment in the melody or solo for effect. So if I have not been playing the 3rd, I'd insert it in between. Often I will also withhold the inner voices on the LH and play only the root and the top note and then syncopate the middle voices in the middle. Hard to explain but it makes the tune sound like it's in 2/4 instead of 4/4 with the middle voices going in later in the measure.

This is not a lesson description so it is not well thought out but this is a little summary of the stuff I've learned to do. [/b]
i'd love to listen to some examples of these different approaches. do you have any on line?
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 10:06 AM

jazzwee - it's time for a reality check here. I have just recorded my charleston LH along with the AL melody. I know that one of these days (months, years!!!), I will need to add my LH while I solo.

On that note, am I on time with my LH? If so, I will continue to practice at 140 bpm. If I'm not on that solid as a rock time, I'll practice slowly once again.

I can’t yet put in any swingy type RH notes when I do this LH charleston. The best I could do was try to detach the RH quarter notes.

I'm not quite sure how I need to progress with my LH. I am assuming that the goal here is to get the charleston LH on auto pilot.

So, if I am on a solid LH time, should I now:

1. try to add some more swingy notes in the RH (deviate a bit from the written melody) while keeping a charleston LH going?

Or

2. just keep on doing charleston with the simple written RH.

http://www.box.net/shared/252k8xu04w
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 10:58 AM

Jeez, I'm over here toiling away trying to get my chord tones to land on downbeats and people are bashing our thread and our tireless leader. As my 8 year old daughter would say "What-evs". Best not to even dignify this stuff. Jazzwee, you get from me too.

I've been working on the tips from lesson 11. It has been really tough. I made a few attempts at recording something last night, but they were too horrendous. Whenever I hit the record button, my playing always seems to rachet down a notch. I think I'm getting close. Maybe another night of practice.

Barb, your rhythm sounded pretty solid to me. Sounded to me like your &'s were falling really late in the beat which I think is what you want. Nice work.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 11:13 AM

Thanks, deeluk. I'll have to wait for our rhythm expert, tho, to get the final word as to whether I'm rock solid.

Re: recording. I used to hate it with a passion. I decided to cure my recording phobia by recording often. I recorded all the time until it just didn't bother me any more.

Lesson 11 - yes, quite challenging. I'm looking forward to you posting something.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 12:15 PM

Someone rated me and this thread a 1. So obviously someone was unhappy with this thread. As you know, a thread was already started criticizing us because we don't use sheet music. I have no idea if the 'little child' that rated us is in the same camp or not but if someone out there is unhappy with what were doing here, then SPEAK UP LIKE AN ADULT.

I can tell you guys that the Jazz pros/teachers that have been visiting this thread has only good things to say. So I truly doubt any jazzer would do this. Maybe it's another dummy who's telling us that Keith Jarrett needs to improvise with sheet music.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 12:25 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
jazzwee - it's time for a reality check here. I have just recorded my charleston LH along with the AL melody.

http://www.box.net/shared/252k8xu04w [/b]
That is SO GOOD Barb! It's pretty rock solid to me. Amazing job.

For improvement now, I will now suggest to 'leave' that rock solid time and give it more of a groove. To do this, learn to relax the RH and drag it just ever so slightly behind the beat. Don't alter the LH. It's perfect. This is very advanced now. I wonder if you can even hear me do it on the combo melody. You'd have to listen carefully to detect it but after a while it is more of a relaxed feel.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 12:38 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
Whenever I hit the record button, my playing always seems to rachet down a notch. [/b]
You and me both \:D So the solution is always to master it at a higher level. It seems that we need that reserve to counteract the self-consciousness. To perform at 100%, you need to know the subject matter at 150%.

Just so you know Deeluk, this isn't easy to do. I don't know what makes you think you can do this in a couple of days \:D

Let me make a suggestion to make it easier. Don't worry about it so much but record to see HOW MANY times you land on a chord tone. Meaning ignore the few times that it didn't work out. Can you at least land on a chord on beat 1? You were doing that already on your first try because you were landing on the 3rd.

So from there use only one technique at a time (like stepwise movements, which is the easiest).

The hardest to synch are chord arpeggios unless you arrive at some pattern in advance (not a bad idea at first) so you hear how it sounds like. Work out a few different patterns.

Be patient.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 12:51 PM

Thank you, jazzwee. I'll breath easy now.

I do detect that relaxed feel when you play. That's what I am after here. I love that sound and have noticed it while listening to the pros.

So, I'll play Charleston in my LH and try to play the RH as if I just had a few stiff drinks ;\)

Quick question on Lesson 11. Chord tones with long notes was not a problem for me. Doing it as mostly eighth notes for lesson 11, I notice that I sometimes anticipate the next measure and I play a note on the & of 4 that is a chord tone for the next measure, but, it is not a chord tone for the current measure.

Example:

First measure is Am7. I may play the D on the & of 4 (next measure is a D7.)

So, is this allowed in the first assignment of lesson 11 having to do with using Chord tones only?
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 01:12 PM

Barb, typically when using the Bebop scale you play going up and down. When you reverse direction over the extra tone in the Bebop scale, that's when the synching happens.

The other approach that I practiced a lot myself is to repeat a note or execute a pattern that will synch me up a note. Here's a couple of examples (I'm not at a piano so hopefully it will be correct):


Example 1:
(Stepwise movements unless otherwise indicated...)

Am7

C B C D E D C (skip) E

D7
D C D E F# G A (skip) F#

GMaj7
G...


Example 2:

(Repeated Note Example)
Am7

C B C D E D C C

D7
D C D E F# G A A

GMaj7
G...


You see the problem I encountered when I initially did this was that my fingers automatically moved and it really wasn't connected to the tones I was hearing so this was a mechanical way to synch.

But after a year or so of practicing this, what happened is that I began to select notes based on their tone, and my fingers were just following. I was so glad when it happened because for moment there I doubted if I was musical. And for whatever reason, these moves that I practiced are no longer necessary. I think the tone bridging (to get to a target tone) based on working this out logically eliminated at least the effect of fingers getting in the way.

I was not taught this BTW, this stuff I just developed on my own.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 01:14 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
Whenever I hit the record button, my playing always seems to rachet down a notch. [/b]
Just so you know Deeluk, this isn't easy to do. I don't know what makes you think you can do this in a couple of days \:D
[/b]
Well, I didn't mean I'd master it in a few days. Just that I hope to get something that I could bring myself to post here.
 Quote:

The hardest to synch are chord arpeggios unless you arrive at some pattern in advance (not a bad idea at first) so you hear how it sounds like. Work out a few different patterns.
[/b]
Yup. I started doing this. I wondered if by doing so, I was "cheating". Plus, it gets very repetitive playing the same lick over and over. So, after I rapped myself across the knuckles, I started trying to vary my patterns. For instance, I'll think OK, start with an eighth note run and then do a half-eighth stab on the next chord. Then a chord arp. Another chord arp... etc. Then, the next time through, I'd start with quarter note chord tones, then a run, a long note, etc.

I seem to be stuck in a pattern. I can hear every other chord change. So, I have to pray the note I end on works for the "next" chord. For instance, I play something over Am and end on A. Luckily that works for the D7 coming next. Then I play over the Gmaj but I don't "hear" the Cmaj. The Fm7b5 is loud and clear, but the B7b9 isn't. The Em is easy to pick out. So, I've been trying to work on this as well. I'll play a few times through just arp'ing each chord.
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 01:16 PM

I'm not up to soloing but I recorded Autumn leaves with a swing feel(I tried) and variation.

I just bought a mixer so here's AL with piano and sound module.

http://www.box.net/shared/pq6si2y0oo

I also practice 2-5-1 voicing in all keys with exercice from Keyboard Harmony book.

Serge
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 01:19 PM

Deeluk, I think I spotted your problem. Don't look at just the one chord, look at each ii-V-I formation as a group since they typically follow the same scale.

What you have to practice to avoid is starting your lines at Beat 1 of each chord. Start off with starting on the & of 4. This forces you to think in a less boxed in way. Don't look at the chords boxing you in. In other words, work out the connection patterns from chord to chord (see my answer to Barb for examples).

It's a bit like sightreading ahead I suppose (although this one you can do with your eyes closed).
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 01:26 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Serge88:
I'm not up to soloing but I recorded Autumn leaves with a swing feel(I tried) and variation.

I just bought a mixer so here's AL with piano and sound module.

http://www.box.net/shared/pq6si2y0oo

I also practice 2-5-1 voicing in all keys with exercice from Keyboard Harmony book.

Serge [/b]
Nice job Serge (nice piano sound too!).

I personally think you're ready for soloing. You're the first person here to actually improvise but you just pulled back. Listen to everyone on their first solo and then listen again to the latest solos and you can see the improvement just from working it out.

Keep posting your progress Serge! You're sounding great.

You could work on the Charleston LH next (RH sounds perfect).
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 01:26 PM

Gee Whiz, what's not to like about this thread? I can't imagine why anyone would down rate it. This is just the best information we are getting and a fun group to be with. Why would anyone care anyway, if they didn't want to do it they could just not participate??? and also Deeluk for trying to help me with my recording problems. What's not to like in this thread???
Alene
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 01:37 PM

\:\) Hi Serge: That sounded great ...doesn't sound like you have any problems to me
Alene
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 01:41 PM

Thank you, Alene. All of you inspire me to keep plugging away. I love the group effort here-- Hugs to you all :3hearts:

I agree with you - those who don't like jazz can just stay away.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 01:53 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Serge88:
I'm not up to soloing [/b]
Oh yes you are, Serge. I just listened to you.

Your left hand can take a vacation. Play just the right hand and let your cool back up group do the rest. \:D You need to dive in and try it. Total fun, I say.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 02:24 PM

Serge, nice work. I like your backing track. It's so much fun practicing with a "band". I think I need to fire my bass player though... I say you should try out the RH only soloing too. You were adding quite a bit of embellishment there. Solo is just a small step away from that.

Alene, have you had any luck with your sequencer? PM me if you need any more help (not that I helped all that much). I think it's a great tool that'll let you ease into improv with just the RH.
Posted by: stegerson

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 03:15 PM

I can't believe someone would be so against the concepts here. At worst, it's just fun to noddle with. At best, it allows us to peer into, how did Chris put it, "a pure American art form" while learning some theory and technique along the way.

It's absolutely harmless and in no way was it ever stated or implied that it should replace reading music.

My only regret is that I can't seem to free up enough time lately to participate more!
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 04:38 PM

Hi,

I've not posted for awhile, so need to catch up. It's amazing, how the subject has mushroomed. I have postings still to read!

Jazzwee, this success is mainly down to your tireless effort in taking us by the reins, explaining succinctly the methods required & in a favourable order, that I personally have not found in books. You also have a pleasant & effective way of dealing with our musical offerings, which is pertinent & extremely helpful. However, that may now change, as I am rendering my poor attempt at a part solo & part melody, the latter with rootless voicings;

http://www.box.net/shared/n6ronjn4o4

It is only done over the first 16 bars. I can recognise there is a lot wrong with it (simply looking at a midi file afterwards portrays timing errors), but I await your more expert conclusions & suggestions.

This is my first attempt to solo, so I do not know, if I am approaching it correctly. Next time, I may try & put the notes down on paper first, as it is difficult to play on the fly. Even if I find an interesting pattern, I find it difficult to remember. I also confess to a number of attempts to record this one. I experience the same problems already asserted by others.

I find the soloing difficult, although I understand the theory somewhat. I wish, I could sing phrases on the fly, but I have poor pitch, so I have not really tried to sing during my lifetime. Well, perhaps, very rarely in the bath, if no one was around! Anyways, no one said it would be easy. And that's why it's so fun.

The progress of others is moving in leaps & bounds, which is very encouraging. Keep up the good work everyone & ignore the lone voice of dissent.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 05:27 PM

Kanga, glad to see you're back and posting your recordings. What really helped me when I started out with this solo stuff were the tips in Lesson 10 on playing long notes and focusing on the 3rd. Don't try and squeeze too much into each bar. Listening to the examples in Lesson 10 several times, and even transcribing bits of them, really seemed to help too. Keep it up and don't be a stranger...
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 06:26 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Kangamangusuk:
However, that may now change, as I am rendering my poor attempt at a part solo & part melody, the latter with rootless voicings;

http://www.box.net/shared/n6ronjn4o4

It is only done over the first 16 bars. I can recognise there is a lot wrong with it (simply looking at a midi file afterwards portrays timing errors), but I await your more expert conclusions & suggestions.

This is my first attempt to solo, so I do not know, if I am approaching it correctly. Next time, I may try & put the notes down on paper first, as it is difficult to play on the fly. Even if I find an interesting pattern, I find it difficult to remember. I also confess to a number of attempts to record this one. I experience the same problems already asserted by others.

I find the soloing difficult, although I understand the theory somewhat. I wish, I could sing phrases on the fly, but I have poor pitch, so I have not really tried to sing during my lifetime. Well, perhaps, very rarely in the bath, if no one was around! Anyways, no one said it would be easy. And that's why it's so fun.
[/b]
That is VERY NICE Kangamangsuk! You're saying this is a first try? Did you here those melodies you were creating?

All you have to do is get rid of the LH. Use the AL combo MIDI and just play the RH and you're already sounding great.

Removing the LH will improve your rhythm concentration. RH wasn't bad at all actually (time wise).

You're using a different approach here which sounds very musical and succesful for you and that is to create melodies. I would go with that and just keep coming up with variations. It's an alternative approach to the Lesson structure but accomplishes it with a different mindset.

Now as you come up with these lines, listen to the solo examples I gave as well as the other versions of AL by the masters, and pay particular attention to adding the jazz cliche endings. Double eighths, Quarter+short eight, eight+quarter, etc. Those give it a semblance of a jazz vocabulary. If you listen to a lot of jazz lines you'll recognize them and they all swing.

Great job! And thanks for the support.
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 07:51 PM

\:\) Hi Kanga and all : I just listened and you sounded good to me....everyone sounds good to me! I'm new at this and struggling too and turning on the recorder doesn't help, LOL!

Thanks to Deeluk's help I have figured out how to do the playing over Jazzwee's combo, at least I think I have. Great bunch of helpful people here.

I need to go back and go thru all the pages on this thread as I was late starting and also need some practice time....I will post a midi later to see if I have the record on top thing figured out.

Alene
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 08:13 PM

Hey Alene, your first try was amazing too.

But it's not 'Jazzwee's combo \:D . You make it sound like I had a drummer and a bass player on hand \:D . Just call them Mr. Left Hand and Mr. Right Hand...(and the help of Yamaha).
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/05/08 08:47 PM

\:\) Well, Mr. "Whoever it was" has more smarts than I do so I'm still impressed, LOL! And, thanks for the compliment....the encouragement really helps.

Alene
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 12:36 AM

Alene, if you upgrade to a fancy new DP (I just bought this Yamaha Motif XS6), you can do what I did.

I comped the actual full chords in root position on the LH and the Motif took care of creating a very nice bass line and drum track which I then recorded.

Then I took out the chord comping and did a live comping of the melody and LH with rootless voicings. So all the piano parts was 100% live. And this didn't take long. So now I can call up the AL combo anytime I want \:D .

I can easily do this to any tune I'm working on. Since jazz combos are hard to come by in one's living room, this truly was fantastic.

I know how to make a bass line but the bass line on the AL combo was better than I could have ever done by hand.

So that's who Mr. "Whoever it was" is \:D
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 01:10 AM

Jazzwee & this thread + + + + +


Rosa :3hearts:

Well....this is the thread that got me involved in PW.

My first posting is in this thread.

I am so INSPIRED by this thread that I have not had time to post anywhere at all and all my posts have only been here. Shows how much this thread had pulled my heart.

I have never HAD SO MUCH fun IMPROVISING. Gosh, imagine Keith Jarret improvising with music sheets?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 01:15 AM

OK, here's where I'm at with chord tone and eighth note lines:
http://www.box.net/shared/wkuq9tag4o

I can't seem to hit the & of 4 to start my lines. I think I did hit either the & of 1 or & of 2 a couple of times. So at least 3% of my solo didn't start on the 1. \:\( Ah well, lots of work to do here...

That Yamaha guy is in my band too. He's pretty good. I did have a talk with my bass player though and I'm going to give him one more chance. He played some non b5 F#m and some Emaj7 instead of Em7 in my backing track. Think I need to hit those in root position like you did JW so he won't get confused ;\)
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 01:15 AM

Also, whoever these people are who are trying criticize this thread to stop it, I just want you to know that you had DRAWN so much more people in here since yesterday.

More people are involved as a result and this is a good thing in my book.

Rosa \:\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 01:19 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
That Yamaha guy is in my band too. He's pretty good. I did have a talk with my bass player though and I'm going to give him one more chance. He played some non b5 F#m and some Emaj7 instead of Em7 in my backing track. Think I need to hit those in root position like you did JW so he won't get confused ;\) [/b]
Yeah that Yamaha guy doesn't know how to do rootless. Not a jazzer. \:D So you have to play rooted first, THEN erase your comping so Mr. Yamaha doesn't get lost.

Have you tried those other chord recognition settings? Mr. Yamaha might be more succesful with that. \:D
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 01:30 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
That Yamaha guy is in my band too. He's pretty good. I did have a talk with my bass player though and I'm going to give him one more chance. He played some non b5 F#m and some Emaj7 instead of Em7 in my backing track. Think I need to hit those in root position like you did JW so he won't get confused ;\) [/b]
Yeah that Yamaha guy doesn't know how to do rootless. Not a jazzer. \:D So you have to play rooted first, THEN erase your comping so Mr. Yamaha doesn't get lost.

Have you tried those other chord recognition settings? Mr. Yamaha might be more succesful with that. \:D [/b]
I have tried them, just not on my AL practice track yet. It is a bit tedious and time consuming finding the arps you like. I quickly selected arps for the drums and bass on this track. Turns out the bass arp is one of those "ES" ones. From what I've read, the "XS" arps (they have _XS appended to the arp name) have intelligent chord recognition. For now, I just went in and corrected the few misplaced notes. I think it somehow subliminally sunk into my head that the bass track was wrong. It took a week or so, but I finally realized it. Maybe my ear is getting better...
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 01:30 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
OK, here's where I'm at with chord tone and eighth note lines:
http://www.box.net/shared/wkuq9tag4o

[/b]
Wow Deeluk! Major improvement there! Sounded great especially at the beginning.

One thing I'd especially like to point out is that the lines are actually swinging. The phrasing sounds jazzy. The swing is natural sounding.

The rest is confidence building so you can maintain it.

Amazing improvement in such a short time.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 01:32 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
Also, whoever these people are who are trying criticize this thread to stop it, I just want you to know that you had DRAWN so much more people in here since yesterday.

More people are involved as a result and this is a good thing in my book.

Rosa \:\) [/b]
Rosa, thanks for making me feel better ;\)
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 01:41 AM

AL Gang, I'm just amazed at the changes in the solos. From the hesitant moves on the first recordings to the confident playing now. Whatever we're doing here must be right!

Some of the words I've used to evaluate you are the same words I received from my own teachers and by golly, I'm impressed that it works \:D
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 06:31 AM

deeluk - That was a GREAT job with those eighth note lines. You've inspired us all! Keep up the good work
Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 07:37 AM

Wow, I'm so far behind (lesson 6) - work is in meltdown - Sailwave is in meltdown - the wife wants DIY done - and I want to solo... \:\)
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 08:05 AM

Jazzwee - Here is my latest attempt at Lesson 11 downbeat eighth notes. I'm holding off on doing those step wise moves. So, you will only hear an occasional non chord tone on the + of 4.

http://www.box.net/shared/0azp275kww

If I need to work more on this exercise, please let me know. If I'm OK with the swing feel, I'll go on to the "step wise moves" where I'll be concentrating on learning some patterns as you have already suggested.

Deeluk - I listened to your latest solo over and over this morning at breakfast (the never ending solo). It was inspiration to give it another try this morning.

Kanga - Please post again soon. You do have a natural ability for soloing.

LaValse - Those voicings in Lesson 6 and 7 will take a while to learn. That is more of a long term project. Why don't you spend a bit of time with the scale in Lesson 8. I pretended I was Bill Evans when I did that one. After that, you are ready to solo.

TO ALL - We need to post so we can prod each other along this exciting path that jazzwee has laid out for us.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 10:13 AM

\:\) I just got caught up listening to the recordings.

Serge.....can hardly wait to hear your first solo. Even "I" can do it, so you can for sure.

Kanga....you sound very musical and melodious to me.

Deeluk....wow, you improve in fast speed. You are way ahead and sound so professional to me. You've inspired me to get going with those 8th notes.

Barb....as always, very smooth and pleasant to listen to.

Keep up the good work guys.

Rosa \:\)
Posted by: westarm

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 10:58 AM

thanks all for uploading your work.....i'm unable to yet, but want y'all to know that it is inspirational and though i'm working at a bit slower pace, i feel right at home and part of the group.

anyone who wants to learn this type of piano playing will be in 7th heaven when they find this thread....we all know it gets Ten Stars.
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 11:52 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:

I personally think you're ready for soloing.
[/b]
Yes you're right, I have to put effort in that.

Serge
Posted by: Serge88

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 11:56 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Serge88:
I'm not up to soloing [/b]
Oh yes you are, Serge. I just listened to you.

Your left hand can take a vacation. Play just the right hand and let your cool back up group do the rest. \:D You need to dive in and try it. Total fun, I say. [/b]
Yes, and with Band in a Box I have the whole orchestra backing me up .

Serge
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 12:03 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Serge88:
Yes, and with Band in a Box I have the whole orchestra backing me up [/b]
You got that right, Serge. Band in a Box keeps me glued to the piano. I even practice those 2-5-1 chord progressions with my GROUP! \:D

Have you tried any of the ear training stuff? That too is fun.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 12:54 PM

Everyone, thank you so much for the kind words. I have to be honest though. I didn't really feel good about that recording before I posted it last night. I was determined to get something posted. I recorded that on the 2nd take, I think, and copied it over. I know I was pretty relaxed when I played that. I wasn't trying to force the swing feel like I think I have in the past. There were a couple of phrases in there that I stumbled across and "thought about ahead of time". Especially the chord tones on the 1st Gmaj.

Jazzwee, thank you especially. Your encouragement really helps. I certainly didn't expect my playing to be called "jazzy" or "swinging" at this point. I have been working really hard on this and I guess it's starting to pay off. I know I still have loads of stuff to learn.

Barb, nice work there. I'd say go for the eighth lines. I took the patterns jazzwee laid out, practiced maybe one of them for a bit and the result is what I posted.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 01:18 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Jazzwee - Here is my latest attempt at Lesson 11 downbeat eighth notes. I'm holding off on doing those step wise moves. So, you will only hear an occasional non chord tone on the + of 4.

http://www.box.net/shared/0azp275kww

[/b]
My goodness, when will this amazement stop. That was AWESOME Great melodies and note selection. There were some memorable lines in there.

See how successful everyone is with a few guidelines? This should be encouraging to everyone that creating a solo and making your own music is within everyone's reach with a little hard work.

To break new ground here Barb, focus on two things:

1. Add space. No need to play so many notes. They're beautiful notes. But it will sound even better with less. I noticed Deeluk had a natural balance of space that was perfect.

2. If you can successfully build the swing feel here these solos will sound professional even with your current note selection which is absolutely great.

First I would deemphasize the extreme swing ratio and straighten out those eights more and focus on the offbeat accents.

Deeluk managed to straighten out his eights and sounds like Keith Jarrett \:D . Deeluk, add some more offbeat accent to yours though for a stronger swing but the timing of the eight notes sound great.

This is fine tuning stuff. Can you believe how far everyone has gone in a few weeks? AWESOME.
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 01:20 PM

\:\) Wow, that was so nice getting to listen to Deeluk and Barb's recordings this morning. You both are doing so well and everyone else too. Mr. Yamaha doesn't get the credit for that....it's Jazzwee all the way, LOL!

Jazzwee, my DP is only two years old so can't trade it in...but I think it does all those things if I was just smart enough to figure it out and took the time to do it. Deeluk helped me tho so I now can play over a recording and then record it. Now if I just had someone to play my right hand for me.

Yesterday I went back thru the thread and listened to a lot of the recordings and everyone was really playing so well....so congratulations to everyone that posted earlier too. Please come back and inspire us some more!

Alene
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 02:09 PM

Great tips, jazzwee. Thank you.

Why is it that we are all hard of hearing when it comes to analyzing our own playing?

Deeluk didn't think he played well. My goodness - I thought he sounded like Keith Jarrett also.
Hey deeluk - jazzwee mentioned you and Jarrett in the same sentence. You better print that out and frame it.

We wouldn't be progressing at all, jazzwee, if it were not for your professional guidance. You say you're not a pro - Well, you're on your way to being an extremely competent jazz teacher .... just think of the big bucks you'll be getting someday if you get into this type of teaching as a side occupation. \:D
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 02:36 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
.... just think of the big bucks you'll be getting someday if you get into this type of teaching as a side occupation. \:D [/b]
Thank you Barb.

Right now it's my big bucks that's going to my teacher (MOST expensive in town) \:D I'm spreading the knowledge around for free
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 02:46 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Great tips, jazzwee. Thank you.

Why is it that we are all hard of hearing when it comes to analyzing our own playing?
[/b]
BTW this is such an important point. If you remember in the Lesson on Playing in the Pocket, I said that if you can hear yourself being off time, you're improving.

I find this true even in my own development. As I hear problems in my own playing, it usually indicates that I'm about to improve. It's when I think that I sound cool that I'm actually in a rut.

Sometimes, I go to my teacher and the only thing I get is criticism, meaning I have no new things to work on so just keep working on the same issue. And that time is spent just making me aware of some issue, let's say I'm always screwing up a particular measure. Then when I figure this out, other things unrelated seem to get better too.

This is why it is important to post our solos because we learn to hear what others hear and then we move on to the next level. I think this is also improved when we listen to Jazz.

I remember when I first started when listening to Bill Evans that it just seemed impossible to transcribe; like it was going too fast. Nowadays, I could play the notes on the piano after just hearing it. This ear development I think is what is important to developing skill in Jazz and seems to come naturally after awhile.

So keep posting your music and it's in our failings that we improve. Nothing to be ashamed about, especially for those who have not yet posted.
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 04:34 PM

Jazzwee, I hope, I have not mislead you or anyone else by saying this was my first solo attempt, meaning I heard the sound & phrasing in my head on the fly. That would be far from the truth! In actual fact, I spent quite some time in putting the short stretch together, but It was done by noodling around on the piano, trying to follow the rules set out by you of using the 3rd chord tone. I then tried to think rests, all 4 chord tones, eighth notes, G scale etc. for variation & interest.

Do I like the result myself? Not sure! However, I broke the ice & ventured into soloing & that is the real positive from this for me. Despite all the good advice & knowing that the 3rd chord tone was the first key step to contemplate, it took me a while to feel confident of producing something, that was not totally horrendous.

Purely, as an aid, next time, I shall jot down ideas on a staff, to avoid forgetting what I had just played & liked. It may also help any sense of positioning in a measure(s). I hope it's not frowned upon, as it may assist temporarily. We'll see!

I am not sure, why you think I was using a different approach, unless you are referring to my not basically using long horn type notes solely. I tried to make the solo more interesting by more variation, as I was not too happy by my long note efforts at 120bpm. I do not wish to go off at any tangents, as I am enjoying the course set fair by you in this wonderful thread.

My LH was sometimes out of synch., but I do prefer to do something with it, when practicing, even if it is simply hitting the 1st beat of the bar, as in the soloing. It helps to time my RH. In the melody, I also tried to use the rootless voicings, especially with the melody part & I think some of these were timed OK.

Thanks for phrase ending tips. They will be most useful.

Deeluk, thanks for your encouragement & tip. I think, my solo rendition was, perhaps, too busy & I should use less notes. I certainly liked your solo & it sounded like good swing to me too. You should join Barb & change your ID to "Swinging Deeluk"!

I listen to everyone's submissions, as I am sure you all do, but purposefully I only previously played any solos once, as I did not wish to inadvertently plagiarise or be influenced too much, until I produced my first individual effort. I can now comfortably analyse & glean further ideas from your fine attempts.

Alene, thanks for your kind remarks too & good luck with your own journey in AL.

Sorry for the lengthy posting. And Jazzwee & all other contributors, thanks again.

Kanga
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 04:36 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Great tips, jazzwee. Thank you.

Why is it that we are all hard of hearing when it comes to analyzing our own playing?

Deeluk didn't think he played well. My goodness - I thought he sounded like Keith Jarrett also.
Hey deeluk - jazzwee mentioned you and Jarrett in the same sentence. You better print that out and frame it.
[/b]
You know, I think I will print it out and frame it. I'll probably never hear that said about my playing again.

I think I was so focused on hearing all of the changes, which I still cannot do. And trying to come in on the & of 4, which I still cannot do. And accenting the upbeats, which I still cannot do. Maybe that's why I was being so critical of myself. When I listen to that recording now, without trying to hear all of those things, I guess I do hear some decent lines in there.

Thanks gang! This really helps!
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 04:57 PM

Just caught up reading the latest posts!

Swinging Barb & Rosa, thanks for your kind remarks.

Barb, you have a fine & an appropriate name. You're also so prolific. with your submissions. Good on 'yer.

LaValse, I understand your problem. My wife wants to go on holiday & cannot understand, I have no time available!

Kanga
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 05:02 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Great tips, jazzwee. Thank you.

Why is it that we are all hard of hearing when it comes to analyzing our own playing?
[/b]
BTW this is such an important point. If you remember in the Lesson on Playing in the Pocket, I said that if you can hear yourself being off time, you're improving.

...

This is why it is important to post our solos because we learn to hear what others hear and then we move on to the next level. I think this is also improved when we listen to Jazz.
[/b]
I'd like to just echo this. Take my example. What I was hearing was obviously very different from others' opinion. Had I never posted my recording, I never would have known. If you are holding back posting something because you don't think it's good enough, don't. You may be being overly critical of yourself. And you might miss out on the feedback of what you're actually doing very well. So, post away!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/06/08 06:29 PM

Kangamangsuk, I misunderstood the non-real time development of your lines. If done in real time, I thought you had a good ear for developing instant melodies (which everyone will develop after awhile).

Certainly some jazzers have been know to precompose their lines. And it is a good exercise to do during practice.

But the goal of course is to see how can react in real time. True Jazz is real time improvising. We can precompose short patterns for example, or copy them (riffs, licks), and presumably when you have several thousand of this in your head you can execute them. This is the alternate style of improvising that some people do.

I will not suggest here that the way I've laid out is the only way as there are successful players who do the riff approach (Oscar Peterson as an example).

I've been unsuccesful with the riff/lick approach myself. If I'm lucky maybe I can remember to use them 1% of the time. But this varies from person to person. Some people will say that the style I'm describing here, which is more of an intellectual way to improvise (understanding the harmony, intervals, chord tones, downbeats). My teacher refers to it as MATH \:D .

Because I've learned the riff/lick approach from a prior teacher, at least I have some experience with it to be of some help for those that prefer this approach.

The difficulty with riffs/licks is that when you encounter some complex new progression you'd be lost so in general, we need to master multiple approaches, though we may favor a particular approach.

Anyway, attempt to do stuff in real time (using preconcieved ideas if you wish).
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/07/08 12:24 PM

Hi Gang,

I've been fighting this morning re: strong upbeat accents, and getting more space in my solo. After a bunch of takes, I still wasn't happy with the way I was accenting. So, I spent some time just singing with my group - no playing involved. I just sang away, not worrying about the notes, just concentrating on the accents.

So jazzwee, did I get rid of the Mickey Mouse swing on this one? I was definitely counting as I played to try to accent the "and". It is hard to get rid of that triplet sound. Please let me know if I am a bit closer to a good upbeat accent.

It's also very hard to play fewer notes. Looking at my printout, I see a bunch of rests - so that's encouraging. I even made myself not play on a couple of measures.

Here it is - worts and all....

http://www.box.net/shared/qhfuve7ksk
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/07/08 12:48 PM

That sounds much more natural Barb and certainly are successful with the rests

Here's some tips:

1. Make each phrase like a sentence. Too short and it sounds too choppy. It should be similar to the way we talk. Occasional short phrases is ok but vary the length more.

2. If you end on an eighth note, cut the eight note short. In other words decide if you're going to play it long (quarter note or more) and let it ring, or if it's an eighth put a rest after. This enhances the swing feel.

3. Work on getting some arpeggios in there for variety (not necessarily in a particular order, e.g. it could be 3 1 3 5 3). To bring in a variety of intervals.

4. You may want to practice just eighth notes like a scale so you're comfortable with just the accents (not overswinging). To exaggerate the accent for practice purposes, soften[/b] the downbeat notes even more so there's more contrast. Play it fairly even if you can just so we can practice reducing that overswung ratio.

You did do it less sing-songy but this exercise is just to develop your ability to go in either direction (straight/hard swing) at will. Even the hardest swingers (Wynton Kelly) will go in both directions in one tune.

It might be a good idea to record just scale practice of eighth notes with offbeat accents just to work out this single issue.

Hope this helps ;\)
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/07/08 01:32 PM

Great analogy Jazzee - to make each phrase like a sentence. It's kind of like me carrying on a conversation with the harmony.

Funny that when I try to iron out new problems, I take a step backwards with the old ones - like not cutting those eighth notes short at the end of a phrase. I think our progress will be much like - here's a step forward, here's a half step backwards. ;\)

Question Re - straight vs hard swing. I have read about those ratios between the first eighth and second eighth note. I assume that when you speak of "straight" swing, you are referring to EVEN 8ths with the "and" strongly accented.

So, is HARD swing a triplet feel with the second eighth accented? If so, that is the easy stuff for me.

I'm glad you mentioned Wynton Kelly. Before starting your thread, I had been generating solos with Band in a Box using the Wynton Kelly style. I memorized 8 of those 16 measure solos. It was based on the Autumn Leaves chord progression, but in the key of Bb. I felt very comfortable playing along with that triplet feel. But, I do prefer the sound of the even, but accented eighths.

As always, your feedback is so very helpful - Thank you.
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/07/08 02:36 PM

\:\) Hi Gang: Barb, I just listened to your solo and enjoyed it. I know exactly what you mean about taking a step backward. I feel the same way.

I tried to just play the right hand but that doesn't work for me....because I keep getting lost. Seems I need the left hand in the chord to know where I am in the song so, for now, I gave up on that and just tried playing the chord on the first beat and then soloing in the right hand using just chord tones and repeated notes.

I know this doesn't sound jazzy and I'm beginning to doubt whether I can ever be a Jazz player, LOL!

Like Barb said, when I try to concentrate on just playing something off the top of my head then I can't think of accenting. I'm really not happy with this but maybe by posting it will help to find out everything I'm doing wrong (which is a lot). :rolleyes:

http://www.box.net/shared/bgf4vzzks4

Alene
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/07/08 04:21 PM

Barb, yes, hard swing is triplet feel or a 2:1 ratio. This ratio is very extreme by the way. Most jazz is a ratio less than this that's why the triplet feel is not an accurate representation.

When you play straight eights with strong accents, the line will have a delayed feel to it. Because in the end what it means is lengthening the accented note and it has a different swing effect.

Straight eights without accents will sound like classical music.

I don't think that when I say straight that I ever play 1:1. It's just closer to it. Maybe straighter eights is 1.2:1 or something like that. No one really swings evenly so don't take this ratios as mathematically correct.

I have a sample solo by Wynton Kelly that I can analyze and it has both straigher and hard swing in the one tune. I could examine how close he gets to 2:1 when he does the hard swing. Wynton can swing the hardest (although he will mix it with straight for effect). Bill Evans swings pretty hard too on fast tunes. No swing on slow.

Wynton has strong upbeat accents BTW.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/07/08 04:28 PM

Hi Alene, notes are good! Soften the Left hand (a lot) and just play whole notes on beat 1. BUT LAY OFF THE PEDAL \:D \:D

I did the pedal too on my early jazz lessons and one of my teachers banned me from ever using the pedals again.

It's ok to play whole notes on the LH chords. Bill Evans did this a lot. So I would practice Charleston as a separate thing but it's very advanced to do it while soloing. Quite hard to do actually so don't feel bad about it.

Another way of doing it is to lay your LH on the chords for guidance but don't actually press down. Because you really need to focus on the RH.

The other thing that you need to add to your lines is space. Like I said to Barb, say a sentence then take a breath. You'll see your lines improve just from the extra thinking time.

Good luck and great job!
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/07/08 04:48 PM

Nice job Barb and Alene. Barb, I'm struggling mightily with accenting the upbeats too. Whenever I try too hard, it really sounds like I'm trying too hard. Just not natural at all. I've played the scale exercise in Lesson 8 countless times trying to work on this. Doing it while trying to improvise a line still seems out of reach to me. But I keep trying.

Alene, glad to hear your stuff. If you need that LH to help you find your way, I say play it. As JW suggested, just play whole notes over there. Or just hover with your fingers over the chords you would be playing otherwise. I think it was in the Jarrett video that I saw him doing this as well. For me, trying to add the LH while soloing just causes everything to fall apart. It's taken me a long time to just be able to hear the chord changes and not get lost in the progression while trying to solo. And I still do a lot of the time. But I think it is slowly getting better.

I had the same feeling as you two last night while I was practicing. Felt like I had taken a step backwards from the day before. My lines felt very repetitive and non-jazzy. I kept hesitating and tripping over myself. There are good solo days and bad solo days...
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/07/08 04:56 PM

Just to make you all feel good, I just came back from a jazz lesson and I was messing up so badly that I have to retrench again. I'm not disappointed because I've learned that it's when we accept our failings that we get better.

It's frustrating as heck but improvements only come in chunks.

So just like my own playing requires re-practicing some basics, pick the area that is the toughest problem for you. Only one. Don't try to solve everything. Set other issues aside and then just work on that for a few days. Then shift to the next problem. Isolate to small issues first. The smaller the issue the easier to solve.

For example, if you have problem accenting a stream of 8 eighth notes, you can work on using 4 eighth notes?
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/07/08 07:16 PM

Jazzwee -Thank you for sharing your jazz lesson with us. You're right - misery loves company \:D

Alene - Good going! Keep posting. It's fun listening to everyone's progress.

Deeluk - I'm tackling the accent issue calmly. Retrench is a great way to put it. I've got my Band in a Box group all set for scales. I've been practicing those scales with all eighth notes and offbeat accents.

The problem I've encountered while improvising is that there is that little issue of what notes to play. Hard to keep track of where the upbeat is while playing lines with dotted rhythms. Well, I want my fingers to go on autopilot with the correct swing feel, since that is the sound I am after. So, scales it is!

jazzwee - I'm also working on Charleston LH with a Dean Martin style RH.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/07/08 07:23 PM

Maybe like me Barb, we're all trying to do too much all at once. I think if we improve one single aspect of whatever it is we're working on it would be more achievable.

I was trying to something far too advanced myself and I fell flat on my face. \:o
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/07/08 07:35 PM

\:\) Jazzwee, I hope we haven't messed you up on your own playing....trying to teach us must be a hard job, LOL! Thank you for the instructions on what I need to do....you are exactly right! I had been playing without the pedal and then when I turned on the recorder...all that went out the window along with my brain. I seem to be able to concentrate on only one thing so the pedal got right back in there and I wasn't even aware that it did. Also, you're right on the left hand being too loud so sure will work on that. I think the accents are so hard to do and so my left hand decided to do them . This is going to take a lot of practice so I will be busy, but now I know what to work on again so Thanks so much for the help. \:\)

Deeluk: Thanks for the encouragement and kind words. It is nice to know that we all seem to have the same problems. The suggestion of just putting my left hand over the keys, seems like a real good plan and I am going to try that out too. I may never be able to play Jazz correctly, but I'm having a lot of fun trying!

Alene \:D
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/07/08 07:42 PM

\:\) Thanks Barb, and I will keep hanging in here and posting....after I get some more practicing done. I'm also still practicing the Charleston rhythm with some of my other songs and with AL.

Jazzwee is right when he said to focus on one thing....right now I guess I need to just focus a lot on getting the chord notes and 8th notes (or less of each and breathe) and then I will worry about the accents....whew! Funny how the fingers seem to have a mind of their own and don't seem to pay attention to what I'm telling them. LOL!

Alene
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/07/08 08:13 PM

Alene your story is so funny! \:D

But we're all struggling together here. Just working on different tunes...
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 12:29 AM

In the Pianist Non-Classical Forum, jazzer Disciple posts this link about Lennie Tristano.

Listen specifically to the second link because it shows the style of accenting with relying on the triplet feel.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/37/1259.html
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 01:56 AM

Hi Gang,

As you all noticed, I had not posted any recordings for the last 2 days. It's not that I had not been at the piano and I made a few recordings. But it did not pass my custom here to go out \:\( .... so I hope to do better today, esp when everyone has done so WELL with so much IMPROVEMENT.

Alene....your sounds are developing quite well. I like what I am hearing from you. It's the rhythm and the accents that give those jazzy feel & I dont have that yet in my fingers too.

Barb....yes for sure, I can hear those accent beats. Now I know what makes a tune jazzy.

Deeluk....I am still so impressed with your recent solo that I kept listening to it again. Is it possible for you to post a midi file so I can see what you did. You sounded so smooth and relaxed, and a part of you.

Jazzwee...good to know that we are all in the same boat as we move on to the next level. Sometimes we are like 3 steps forward and 2 steps back, but at least we are always moving a step forward. \:D

Rosa \:\)
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 02:03 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:

Deeluk....I am still so impressed with your recent solo that I kept listening to it again. Is it possible for you to post a midi file so I can see what you did. You sounded so smooth and relaxed, and a part of you.
[/b]
Absolutely. I'm flattered. I still don't feel like I deserve it. Gimme a bit. I might not get it done tonight, but I'll try. I had some caffeine not too long ago...
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 02:54 AM

OK, a MIDI of my solo from a couple of days ago:

http://www.box.net/shared/143ear7s4w

I'm off to practice for a little bit. Then "I must sleep".
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 03:17 AM

Look at all the hard work guys. That's why everyone keeps improving so much
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 04:18 AM

Thanks Deeluk for doing the midi before you went to sleep.

Before I be too critical on myself, I better hand in something to see what I am doing right and what I am doing wrong.

http://www.box.net/shared/8gy2wrlcsc

Here I mainly added the 8th notes and tried to catch the + of the 4 to start my melodic lines. Not always successful though. As a result in the middle, I lost my rhythm, but I caught back to the metronome beat at the end to try to end the song decently :rolleyes: .


Rosa
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 07:16 AM

Hey Rosa - Welcome back to solo land. I enjoyed listening to your latest. Keep up the good work and post often!
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 09:50 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
In the Pianist Non-Classical Forum, jazzer Disciple posts this link about Lennie Tristano.

Listen specifically to the second link because it shows the style of accenting with relying on the triplet feel.
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/37/1259.html [/b]
So, you're telling me I need to spend another $0.99 on this thread? Sheesh. Most expensive thread I've ever participated in. Maybe we should all keep track of our expenses. Then, when we all become touring jazz pros, we can write them off.

 Code:
deeluk's expenses:
  Somethin' Else   $7.97
  East 32nd        $0.99
  Total:           $8.96

jazzwee's expenses:
  Yamaha Motif XS6 - $2199


Posted by: LaValse

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 09:51 AM

You forgot to add his hourly rate... \:\)
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 10:07 AM

Hi Everyone - One of our family phrases is -- "DESPERATE TIMES CALLS FOR DESPERATE MEASURES".

I've been glued to the piano this morning tackling my "even eighths, accent the upbeat" problem. I took out a bebop tune that I had been working on for a year. I've been doing it all wrong as far as accents go.

The tune is Donna Lee by Charlie Parker. I played the first 14 measures over and over ..... It's supposed to be played faster than the speed of light. I worked up my speed this morning from the snail's pace of 80 bpm to the turtle pace of 110 bmp.

jazzwee - Am I on the right path for those upbeat accents? If I am, I will start practicing my LH charleston with this. I hope it doesn't distress you too much this morning listening to Donna played at such an excruciatingly slow pace. Since it's a midi file, you can speed it up to a nice bebop tempo. ;\)

http://www.box.net/shared/zypv0w54ww

ps - I know I mentioned in a previous post yesterday that I would be doing scales to tackle the problem. Well, Donna Lee is just too much fun to resist.
Posted by: Kangamangusuk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 11:36 AM

Hi everyone,

This is just to keep in touch & let you know, I have not gone to ground.

Many of you are progressing very fast & it's sure good to see & hear. I am still struggling with the creativity of soloing... so used to seeing the notes in front of me previously...., but I am still hear trying to make progress. When I have something new to post, I shall do so.

Kanga
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 11:47 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
Thanks Deeluk for doing the midi before you went to sleep.

Before I be too critical on myself, I better hand in something to see what I am doing right and what I am doing wrong.

http://www.box.net/shared/8gy2wrlcsc

Here I mainly added the 8th notes and tried to catch the + of the 4 to start my melodic lines. Not always successful though. As a result in the middle, I lost my rhythm, but I caught back to the metronome beat at the end to try to end the song decently :rolleyes: .


Rosa [/b]
This is good to post this Rosa. This shows how you're practicing. I see you're finding the chord tones most of the time. All you need here is confidence.

In practice these continuous lines are good. In actual playing it should be easier because the phrases are short (it has space) so you have to just have an eye on each chord tone. It sounds like you're getting there though.

Now try to cut down on the triplet feel sing-songy swing. That's what I want to make sure every is practicing. It doesn't really require a lot of notes to sound jazzy but a few notes with the right kind of articulation and it's already convincing.

Keep it up Rosa!

There was dude on the internet that posted hours and hours of jazz practice, with mistakes and all. It was actually quite helpful to listen to especially since it was MIDI just like this.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 11:54 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Hi Everyone - One of our family phrases is -- "DESPERATE TIMES CALLS FOR DESPERATE MEASURES".

I've been glued to the piano this morning tackling my "even eighths, accent the upbeat" problem. I took out a bebop tune that I had been working on for a year. I've been doing it all wrong as far as accents go.

The tune is Donna Lee by Charlie Parker. I played the first 14 measures over and over ..... It's supposed to be played faster than the speed of light. I worked up my speed this morning from the snail's pace of 80 bpm to the turtle pace of 110 bmp.

jazzwee - Am I on the right path for those upbeat accents? If I am, I will start practicing my LH charleston with this. I hope it doesn't distress you too much this morning listening to Donna played at such an excruciatingly slow pace. Since it's a midi file, you can speed it up to a nice bebop tempo. ;\)

http://www.box.net/shared/zypv0w54ww

ps - I know I mentioned in a previous post yesterday that I would be doing scales to tackle the problem. Well, Donna Lee is just too much fun to resist. [/b]
That's perfect! That's not triplet anymore. Now when I play Donna Lee usually it's close to 200bpm, actually I'm comfortable at 180bpm (hard to solo at 200bpm), it has to be played completely straight, just like sixteenth notes.

Do we need to start a Donna Lee study group? \:D That would just blow everyone away (including me).

As long as we don't have to play it this fast...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=62ohKUU03pc

BTW this is pure Bebop which means chord tones on downbeats and this guy is doing it at what 300bpm? So at this speed it's all bebop scales.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 11:59 AM

deeluk, this time I'll save you 99 cents. You don't have to buy the Tristano thing, just listen to the swing in that sample. Tristano is the master of accents.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 12:02 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Kangamangusuk:
Hi everyone,

This is just to keep in touch & let you know, I have not gone to ground.

Many of you are progressing very fast & it's sure good to see & hear. I am still struggling with the creativity of soloing... so used to seeing the notes in front of me previously...., but I am still hear trying to make progress. When I have something new to post, I shall do so.

Kanga [/b]
Kanga, like in the early example, start off with long tones first. That makes it easy to think about. No need to rush into long lines (although you can fit some memorized lines in there too).
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 12:04 PM

Jazzwee - Thank you. I'll tackle all of Miss Donna in that fashion and add the Charleston to it.

That youtube guy was amazing. Yes, Yes, I want to do that \:D (be still my heart).
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 12:22 PM

How far are you with Donna Lee, Barb? Can you do chords on the LH while playing the melody in the RH?

BTW some of the fingering in Donna Lee is really difficult. It wasn't really intended to be played on a piano. I use Donna Lee as the technique builder tune. I suffer from a little pain between RH fingers 1 and 3 from overstretching and I think it's from Donna Lee...
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 12:31 PM

Jazzwee - I've been playing root, b7 in the LH. But, I didn't know about the Charleston beat so I just played on 1 and an occasional jab on another beat - nothing scientific.

I worked out the fingering last year, so that's not a problem for me. It may not be the best fingering, but it works for now. Hopefully, it will work as I get faster.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 12:37 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
deeluk, this time I'll save you 99 cents. You don't have to buy the Tristano thing, just listen to the swing in that sample. Tristano is the master of accents. [/b]
Ooops, didn't even realize you could preview it. My bad. Thx.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 12:40 PM

On Barb's request, here's an example of me playing straight eight swing bebop style.

http://www.myspace.com/jazzwee

This is something I recorded in 2006 I think. I don't think I have a copy of this anymore. This was when I had played piano/jazz for close to 2 years.

Anyway it's played pretty straight with just offbeat accents(accenting '&s'). This was specifically an exercise I did to learn to play in this manner.
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 01:24 PM

GANG - Listen closely, over and over, to jazzwee's myspace link. His example helped me out BIG TIME with Donna Lee.

Thank you, jazzwee
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 07:45 PM

\:\) Gosh, you girls are doing great. Barb, your accents were clear and I could hear them....wish I could do them, LOL!

Rosa.....good work and keeping that left hand going at the same time. I'm impressed!

These accents are really hard for me to do...spent too many years accenting 1 and 3, I think.

Jazzwee's playing is so great and only after 3 years??? Where did I go wrong...I sure can't do that after many years.

Oh, oh, back to the practicing for me!

Alene
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 08:56 PM

Alene - For those accents - here's a tip. Set your metronome to beat on eighth notes. In 4/4 time, you will have 8 clicks to the measure - 1&2&3&4&. Accent each "and" right on the click. That's how I did it. I started very slowly - I almost fell asleep between clicks

Then, of course, you play the game of increasing the metronome speed little by little - so your fingers don't even notice it.

This exercise works great with the Lesson 8 scale.
Posted by: Babs_

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 09:15 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
On Barb's request, here's an example of me playing straight eight swing bebop style.

http://www.myspace.com/jazzwee

This is something I recorded in 2006 I think. I don't think I have a copy of this anymore. This was when I had played piano/jazz for close to 2 years.

Anyway it's played pretty straight with just offbeat accents(accenting '&s'). This was specifically an exercise I did to learn to play in this manner. [/b]
I pop in from time to time to listen you guys and you all just blow me away! Your thread about the stars and all was really a trip! \:D Jazzee I listened to your my space page and I was really impressed! Loved it! \:\)

I love jazz, I would really like to learn some jazz piano. I just recently received the book "Exploring Jazz Piano" by Tim Richards. It's Volume 1. Has anybody here ever used this book? I've also have his Blues book and it is truly outstanding.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 10:37 PM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Babs1:
I pop in from time to time to listen you guys and you all just blow me away! Your thread about the stars and all was really a trip! \:D Jazzee I listened to your my space page and I was really impressed! Loved it! \:\)

I love jazz, I would really like to learn some jazz piano. I just recently received the book "Exploring Jazz Piano" by Tim Richards. It's Volume 1. Has anybody here ever used this book? I've also have his Blues book and it is truly outstanding. [/b]
I have both of those books as well. I've been trying to work through IBP for the past year or so. I've gotten through most of chs 1 and 2 and some of 3 and 4. I decided that EJP was a bit over my head and tried to focus on IBP first. I've done some of the material in ch 1. And, of course, now I've looked at the material there on Autumn Leaves.

I feel like I've made more progress here in a month than I did on my own with the books in about a year. It is really helpful getting the feedback and working through everything with others. And here we have jazzwee to keep us all on the right track. It's easy to convince yourself that you've got it down when you're on your own. They are really great books though. I plan on working through them for quite some time to come. There are several other folks on the board working through IBP as well. I see you've discovered the IBP thread already.

You should join us!
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 10:59 PM

Babs, thanks for stopping by! I don't have that book unfortunately so don't know anything about it. I probably have a majority of the jazz books but probably more of the advanced ones.

We could probably even branch out to a Jazz Blues study group. Simpler chords but the points are the same.

I was going to rate you a 5 but you disabled your rating \:D
Posted by: Alene

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/08/08 11:57 PM

\:\) Thanks Barb for the tips. That was what I was doing today after listening to your recording...had the metronome to count out loud the "ands" and REALLY REALLY SLOW was accenting the "ands" and yes, I was slow enough to be sleeping too and finally gave it up.....but if that's how you did it and made it work too, then I will keep it up. You guys may not hear anything from me for a while and then you'll know I really fell asleep or else I still can't do it...either way I'll be missing.LOL!

What is nice with Jazzwee's teaching is he gives us several things we can vary our practice on....either the Charleston Rhythm, the scales for accenting, and other things. Sign of a good teacher, I think!
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/09/08 01:04 AM

More solo practice for me tonight:

http://www.box.net/shared/kn9rv78cgk

Still working on accents, rhythm and variation.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/09/08 01:24 AM

Hey Gang, I sure like coming into here everyday. There is always something new here and something exciting to learn. Just think if we keep this up everyday and do a bit of noodling at the piano, we should grow rapidly. We don't have to wait for a week for those live teachers piano lessons though I don't mind if there is a good one here that I can go to. I hope Jazzwee doesn't get tired of listening to our practise sessions but sure is good to get feedback to know what we are doing right or wrong and what needs to focus. Thanks a bundle to JW and all.

Rosa \:\)
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/09/08 02:04 AM

Deeluk, great solo again. Wow, I hear confidence built in.

Rosa \:\)

(I don't dare to ask for the midi for 'you must sleep').
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/09/08 03:05 AM

deeluk, nice note choices! Try to put more eighth note chunks in there as your project. It really sounds good when I hear a series of eighths. I can see the great progress there. It's really coming together.

It may be time for another lesson and that's to expand your note choices using Chord/Scales. It might help when noodling as there are more notes available than what's in the G major scale or G major bebop scale.
Posted by: jazzwee

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/09/08 03:13 AM

Chromatic Ideas for Lines[/b]

In the meantime, what I'd like hear everyone try is to put some occasional chromatic notes.

For example, if you're at F#m7b5, you could play a series of eighth notes chromatically as
(Going up)
F# G G# A
F# G G# A A# B C
G# A A# B C
etc.
(Going down)
A G# G F# E
C B A G# A


My point here is that a chromatic sequence of eighth notes will keep you also in a chord tone.

Here's another example. On the Em.
D# E F# G F# E
This little lick has a couple of chromatics in it.

Another one. If you know what chord tone you want to start at on Beat 1, then on the & prior, start with a chromatic approach note.

Let's say that on Am7 you want to play C as the first note on Beat 1, then you could approach it from C# on the &, so you play it as C# C in sequence. Starting on the & before it is called a pickup note.

Doing some chromatics gives you more choices for an eighth note sequence and is characteristic of Bebop.
Posted by: rosa2007

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/09/08 03:37 AM

Jazzwee, need a bit of clarification here.

Say for F#m7b5, if I play a series of eighth notes chromatically:

F# G G# A
F# G G# A A# B C
G# A A# B C

I presume that F# begins with the 1st beat, so if I want to start the melody line on the '+' of the 4, do I start with: F F# G G# A.

And for the Em lick that you noted:

D# E F# G F# E

Do I start that D# on the 1st beat or + of the 4?
IT seems to sound good on the 1st beat but then it is not a chord tone on the beat then?

Rosa
Posted by: Babs_

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/09/08 08:14 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Babs, thanks for stopping by! I don't have that book unfortunately so don't know anything about it. I probably have a majority of the jazz books but probably more of the advanced ones.

We could probably even branch out to a Jazz Blues study group. Simpler chords but the points are the same.

I was going to rate you a 5 but you disabled your rating \:D [/b]
Ahhhh..........jazz blues study group? I like that combination.

Deeluk, thanks for the offer, but I am not sure I could keep up with you all. Although, I am just getting around to learning various chords and it's not too hard since I have a few other books to go by. ;\)

Gee thanks Jazzwee.....but I disabled my rating.....I was afraid once it was discovered that I like classical, new age, blues and jazz that I would be considered "weird" and be given a 1. \:D
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/09/08 08:20 AM

Jazzwee - I do have a question on your example for the F#m7b5 chord.

F# G G# A -- I'm assuming it is OK now to play the 9th (G#) on a downbeat. (previously, you wanted only 1,3,5,7 on downbeats.)


F# G G# A A# B C -- on this one, I'm seeing A# on beat 3. This is OK to do now?

G# A A# B C -- If I start G# as an upbeat approach note, I land on B at beat 2. If I start G# as beat 1, then A# is on beat 2.

(Going down)
A G# G F# E -- G is on beat 2

I'm anxious to get started using chromatics, but I won't start until I hear from you. ;\)
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/09/08 08:23 AM

deeluk - I heard those upbeat accents. Nice progress there
Posted by: Swingin' Barb

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/09/08 09:05 AM

 Quote:
Originally posted by Babs1:
I was afraid once it was discovered that I like classical, new age, blues and jazz that I would be considered "weird" and be given a 1. \:D [/b]
Sorry to tell you Babs, but since you've already posted here, you are now officially considered "weird". You might as well join us. \:D There is really no race to keep up with anyone. We are all plodding along on our own pace.
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/09/08 10:40 AM

Guess I did totally forget about the chromatic ideas you gave us a while back. I will definitely work that into my practice. I've been feeling very repetitive lately. This will spice things up for sure. I'll try more eighth runs too. I did try to make one of the runs span 2 octaves in my last post. I think I may have even ended up close to the right spot when I stopped to breathe. I need to work more on downward runs as those don't seem to come out as smooth as upward for some reason. This is so much fun!
Posted by: deeluk

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. - 02/09/08 10:45 AM

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