Hola all you students of Dave Frank’s Joy of Improvisation (JOI)
One of you recently suggested starting up a thread where we could post recordings of our tunes inspired by JOI. In addition, there are helpful questions that you have posted over the last month and excellent responses which are currently scattered across a few threads. This thread will be a central joint for JOI-related tunes and questions.
This thread is intended to complement and not replace the existing Adult Beginners Forum "Jazz Study Group AL, ATTYA" threads, and will be particularly useful for those JOI students who do not have their own web-sites. Even if you have your own web-site/blog, you can alert us to new recordings via this thread.
So get your recordings ready and hopefully this thread can start filling up with your JOI recordings and questions !
now this is some inspiration. Good to know I'm not the only one who isn't the greatest singer :-P Will come with something and post latest after the weekend. Do you use any software to do you sheets?
I really like it Knotty especially your rhythm in the two Gmin6 bars of Section A. And you really highlight the D7 sound. What software do you use to write out your song ?
I forgot which one I used then, probably finale. I did not like it. Now I use Rosegarden and it's a snap. It also looks better.
Feel free to use paper. What I do, I record 1 phrase at a time. When I have them all, I transcribe myself back on the sheet. Pencil and paper should be just fine.
I haven't done any compositions, but here is my transcription (played in midi with a trumpet patch) of Louis Armstrong's Potato Head Blues, last chorus.
I feel that I have made some kind of breakthrough here, because I am now transcribing other soloists (like Miles Davis and Benny Carter) and working their solos into my playing. This is something I have never done before. Lotsa work, but it really is fun!
Here's mine. I keep the chords and rhythm of Leaf Line so that I only have to think about the melody (it's my first ever jazz composition). A builder slams the door in the last measure. BOO. Criticisms and comments welcome !
That was nice, you got the point of the exercise. Don't worry about the Left Hand, you only want to worry about the melody for now. Maybe later on,you can worry about the LH in another exercise. For now, you are good. If you have some time to kill and want to run through some Bach, that will keep your LH in shape in the meantime
As for your line, a couple of notes: - I love the title - If you could somehow show the sheet, that would help. Don't worry about the LH again, and pencil is fine, but if you can show, that will help a lot see the patterns. - I liked how you use the triplet once, that's good. - The playing itself, try to focus on counting 4s. You are counting in 2 right now. So when you play your 8th note line, count 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4 etc... and put a slight accent on the one. That will sound completely different. - See if you can mix phrases lengths. Some longer lines of 4 bars or more. - Let your lines be made of either a flow of 8th, or just space. In other words, on that first phrase, finish of cleanly instead of the quarter note then 2 eights. It's ok to do that, but for now, I would focus on nice long flow of 8ths.
If you post the sheet and I can listen at the same time, I might be able to tell more.
You can move on to chapter 2 from there, or do another, it's up to you.
How's playing the tunes?
your singing sounds really good btw, how's singing the tune?
Knotty Thank you for taking the time to post your detailed comments. I know you’re really busy managing and playing in Knotty by Nature, if you need a vocalist for your band, just let me know ha.
You know I didn’t even realize I was counting in 2s. I thought I was counting in 4s, I think I had set the metronome on 92 or 96 bpm. Maybe I’m unconsciously counting in 2s because when I practise my scales I have the metronome on the backbeats 2 and 4. Can you suggest me something to listen to so that I know what you mean and can readjust to counting in 4s ?
I will try to scan you my penciled score.
Could you please give me examples of ending cleanly ? Do you mean ending with a whole note or a half note ?
I’m on Lesson 3. Is the 3/4 time of A Froggy Day based on Someday My Prince Will Come ?
Counting in 4s. That means you think 4 8th notes at a time, and slightly accent the 1st. Right now, I hear accents every 2 notes. Thinking in 4s will not only make you swing, but it will help you build much more melodic line. It's surprisingly difficult to do. This will come out when you start improvising. Good examples of musicians who play nice long lines of 8th notes are Keith Jarrett or Clifford Brown. If you listen to Dave's recording, he plays a lot of long smooth line. When you pay attention, you can group the notes in 4s. It should be fairly easy to demonstrate on a simple scale the difference between accenting every other note versus every 4, maybe I try to post some if that's helpful.
By clean finish, I mean ending on an 8th note, then taking a rest. Versus ending on an 8th note, and filling the space with a few more notes. For example your first phrase, you finish with 1 quarter, then 2 eights. For now, I would focus on nice clean 8th note lines. Everything else you do will just be weaving in and out of that. Triplets here and there are ok, quarter note lines are ok too, but you want a strong 8th note foundation.
I think it was Knotty who commented in some thread that when you slow down solos to learn them, it is sometimes amazing what you find. Case in point: I'm working on Take the A Train, so I sang along with one of Ella Fitzgerald's recordings and tried to learn her two scat-singing solos. (This is way out of sequence in JOI - it is actually listed in Volume 2.) I guess I assumed that scat lines would not be complex, compared to instrumental lines, but look at this:
Looks suspiciously like a hemiola to me - sung in scat style at 200 BPM - really! Whodathunkit?
And BTW, the whole recording is a masterpiece, to my ears!
Counting in 4s. That means you think 4 8th notes at a time, and slightly accent the 1st. Right now, I hear accents every 2 notes. Thinking in 4s will not only make you swing, but it will help you build much more melodic line. It's surprisingly difficult to do. This will come out when you start improvising.
hmmm I still dont really get what it means to count in 4s please someone help
Knotty I'm with saiman, I'm still finding it difficult to differentiate counting in 4s and counting in 2s. It would be REALLY helpful if you could let us know with an example, if you find the time. I'm up to singing Got No Blues. It's nice that the banjo player got a brief go at soloing. I'm good at Hanons and the Blues tunes but I've spent a long time perfecting the rhythm of A Froggy Day. I think I might have cracked it today.
I play a scales putting the accent every other note, then every 4. It's a little overdone, but that should demonstrate.
Then I play a simple phrase feeling in 2s, which is what I'm trying to get away from. Then a similar line feeling in 4s, which is what I'm trying to get to.
interesting, that's also the first one I did, Ella's A TRain. Not sure it's the same. The lines are complex, but easier to transcribe than instruments I think.
Knotty I've listened to your examples a few times, thank you very much. I'm going to try to apply counting in 4s to my Hanons. So for Jazz Hanon 1, do I accent the Bb and the F in the first measure ?
btw I couldn't scan with my printer so I'm going to a friend's house today to scan my Leafy Tones.
I've just played the Hanons accenting every 4th note rather than every 2nd note. You're so right, it really helped the swing.
For the tunes, did you accent one in every 8 eighth-notes ? Is the rule like "Accent any of the eighth-notes you want, as long as you then accent that same beat in every measure" ?
now that I see, I look at it a little differently.
The first thing is that I like how you mix short and long phrases. you have some nice long line in B and C. You do a few other things - You play tones in uncommon places. For example, your first line ends on the 9th, which is ok, if that's what you're trying to do, but 3 and 7 will provide less tension. Same on that Ebmaj7, ending on the #4 is ok, but tense. Experiment with those, but realize that 1 and 5 are very solid places to end, 3 and 7 next. Likewise, in B, when you start by playing the 4th on Cm7 on beat 1, that's uncommon. PLaying chord tones will make it sound more stable. Again, a matter a choice and taste. If you can hear all those things, that's great. If not, be sure to hear the chord tones first. - You use a good mix of scales vs arpeggios, that's nice. Though, when you lay out a G-7 argeggio over A-7b5, that is again uncommon. You just want to be aware of it. - The last thing I see is large leaps. The 2nd line of the B section. Leaps are ok, but they give a scattered effect. So if you use them a lot, it's break the feel of flow. You want your lines to visually look like Mountains and Hills, rather than cliffs. Guys like Eric Dolphy use lots of leaps. In fact, I think Dave is doing a master class on Dolphy next week, we'll see what he has to say about it.
I wish I could take credit for the long and the short phrases but I used Dave’s rhythm. In my next composition over Leaf Line, I’m going to do my own phrasing.
Tones in uncommon places Some were intended e.g. the first phrase ending on 9 was to produce an “elevated” effect (per the Frank Zappa masterclass !). But a lot of my ending tones were accidental e.g. ending with the Lydian on the Ebmaj7 produced a happy effect, but as you correctly pointed out, it’s too tense.
I didn’t think about the type of note with which I started on Beat 1. From now on, as well as looking at the way I end, I will make sure that I’m aware of how I start the first beat.
Arpeggios/scales which don’t match the chord You’re right, the Gmin arpeggios over Amin7 look weird. I used it because: - firstly the whole line was in Gmin, hence I could use the Bb, and - secondly, the next measure was in D7, hence I could anticipate it with the F#.
Shape of phrases Wow, I hadn’t thought of subjecting a tune to a topographical assessment. I’d like to aim for your “mountains and hills” landscape next time. When I look at your Yves’ Tune (btw I really like that title), it’s much smoother than mine.
I’m really looking forward to the Eric Dolphy masterclass.
Hey Simon Cool one ! Don't you love how everyone on JOI sings/hums. Yours was melodic and easy to sing along to. I really liked your long phrase of eighth notes at the end of Section A. It had a nice feel. Thanks for posting.
Thank you so much for commenting. I am sure knotty will find lots of room for improvement but its a start. I liked yours too. It sounded great. How did you manage to notate your score so well. I am struggeling to write music. Almost like a chore to me
Simon Thank you for the compliment about my tune. I don't know why you think you can't improvise. Having a melodic sense is the beginning of improv and yours sounded melodic enough to my ears. Did you write out the notes for your right hand melody ? I forgot whether you said you have a classical background or can read music ?
I kind of did write out the notes but my handwriting is aweful. I also never know whether the connecting lines between the 8th notes need to be underneath or above the notes.
I can read music but I am still quite slow at it. Played a little bit of classical music when I was a child. I then stopped for almost a decade. Now I play chords in church and obviouisly try to learn jazz with Joy of Improv
Regarding the Improv, Dave Frank has given me the confidence that I can also learn how to do it. The problem is mainly that my teacher just gives me these hard things to do that are above my ability. Singing and composing melodies without getting caught up with the left hand is what i want to focus on now
Your teacher sounds like my former jazz teacher. A great performer but a hopeless teacher. These guys just make you feel bad. The more they show you how good they are, the worse you feel. As you said, they just expect you to work it all out yourself.
I remember on about my third lesson, he gave me a long series of really hard chords with #5 everywhere and said “Improvise.” I tried to do an Art Tatum and he said “You are so far away from where you need to be ” ! Now I think it’s so funny and I keep on laughing about my sad lessons but he made me really stressed at the time.
Luckily he changed my lesson time and it clashed with my tennis. Why are you persevering with your teacher ? Aren't you wasting your money on him ? Anyway I'm really pleased you're persevering with this fun game called jazz improv.
I love the JOI approach. One learns good tunes which really helps improve one's sense of melody.
Don't worry about the connecting lines being up or down. But get the note values right e.g. quarter note, or 8th note. Then we will know what you mean.
that would be helpful if you could post that page. If you don't write music very well, then this will teach you. In the meantime, you'll learn how to read. Basic note reading is essential. And it's not that hard. You might want to spend a few hours studying this if you don't understand quarter vs eight notes.
That said, I think you get the gist of it. I notice lines of varying lengths, which is good. You can try even longer lines, but you have a nice mix there. Also you start your lines alternating between 1, 1& and 2. That's a good mix too, you can experiment with all those beats.
Again, if you post the sheet, it will be easier to watch while I listen. It will stick in my head longer that way.
Both of you obviously got the point of the exercise, so that's great. After you've done about 20 of those, you will see improvisation in a completely new way. For one, you will have encountered a variety of progression, and you would have already beaten them once.
About teachers Saiman, one thing you'd notice if you took a lesson with Dave, is what when he plays something for you, it's something that you CAN play. Today. Not in 5 years. It's how he wants you to play today. If you want to be dazzled, get a CD. If you want to understand the concept you need to work on next week, listen to him play at the lesson. Dave has taught at Berklee for over 15 years. I'm pretty sure he's seen all sorts of young musicians. That's the kind of experience you want, The guy who teaches at universities.
yes of course! After you finished one composition, you can move on to the next. I used to do typically one every other week, whatever speed works for you is good. Evidently you're also doing the Hanons, tunes, chords and singing with solo, so that should keep you fairly busy. Also, you don't have to do all the exercises from the same lesson at the same time. Sometimes, I like to keep a Hanons an extra week, or stay on it for just one week. That's ok. That's all good. For info, I think I only started the compositions after I was on lesson 10 or so. I started improv when I got to lesson 25 or so.
After you finish a few compositions, we can start some simple improv and see. I'm afraid it might become very difficult for me to provide useful feedback at that point, because we'll all be at the same level. But I'm sure we can get something out if it.
haha dont worry knotty, I dont think I will overtake you anytime soon. I listend to some of the stuff on your blog. Its awesome.
I will keep working through the pieces on a quicker pace but additionally do a composition on all the previous pieces. I dont specifically stick to the solos from the list, as I dont have youtube at work but I listen to a lot of stuff like Ella and try to sing with her.
Hi everyone; I'm quite excited to be starting out with JOI. I received my book last week and it is exactly what I've been looking for. Thanks, Dave! I've been been working hard on lesson one and have a couple of questions: 1) Is the Hanon to be practiced with both hands together or just the right hand. I've been practicing hands together because that's what I'm used to doing (in classical). 2) In the discussion of singing the master solos, reference is made to looping the solos on a cassette. Given that cassettes have become virtually obsolete, I'm wondering what methods others have used to loop these solos. Thanks for your time. Tony Wells
Knotty Thanks for sharing your composition for Lesson 2. I've been getting good ideas from your compositions. Did you purposely set out trying to create the Blues feel ? What jazz standard are the chords from the Lesson 2 jazz tune based on ? It's really nice that you've been encouraging Simon and myself from remote parts of the world. It's really difficult to get GREAT jazz teaching here.
The video was kool for illustrating playing in 4s and the importance of melodic tunes. Thank you !
Tony It's excellent and exciting that you will be exploring JOI with us.
That's cool Knotty. I looked up the words. They're really cute.
Knotty and Saiman I've done a chord analysis of the Joy of C the jazz tune from Lesson 2 that I will compose over. Would either of you mind glancing through it to check I'm on the right track ? Thanks !
Knotty, that’s just brilliant. I’m nowhere near the stage of being able to see patterns as clearly as you. Is this what you mean ? I’ve interpreted your suggestions in blue (please refer to the link below)
I hope you're not waiting on me to go ahead with this, I've been very busy with work and the band.
Looks like you're doing pretty well on analysis. No need to over analyse. Some keys to get started are : - Listen to the original melody. If you can, play it with the LH at the same time. This usually helps me hear why a particular chord works over a particular melody. That's like REALLY listening and paying attention. - Play the arpeggio over each chord. This will also get your ear ready. - Play some scales. This can be a bit more tricky, because you need to choose a scale. As a rule, see if the scale works with the melody
Hey Knots I've just read your great post on the Adult Beginners Forum. It sounds like awesome ear training. When I sing along to the Louis Armstrong Hot 5 or Hot 7 for JOI, it always amazes me how each band member has the skill to listen so intuitively to what the others are playing.
Hi everyone This is my second composition. It's called Longing for the Leaves. I use Dave Frank’s chord voicings but my own rhythm. I’m always keen to improve so your comments and criticism are welcome as usual. The score will follow tomorrow. I don’t have a scanner and will need to go to a friend’s place.
I found this one much better than the previous. You have nice lines of varying lengths. That's good. The A section in particular in neat. The brigde is a little more choppy. In general, you want to try to give shapes to your lines that are more like mountains rather than zigzag. Though sometimes it's ok, especially if you repeat a pattern. But in general, for the melody, keep one direction for -say- a measure, then switch direction again.
Again, I thought this one was much better than the first. Do you feel like you are internalizing these changes a little bit more?
Hi Knotty Your comments are very much appreciated. Are there certain rules that you bear in mind when you compose bridges ? I know that your tunes have a nice shape. How do you keep the direction without being linear ? (I remember reading in the Adults Beginners Forum that Jazzwee told someone not to use too many consecutive/linear notes).
Thank you for your Bad Apple composition. I like your melody, it’s easy to sing along to, and I think your title is very funny. Did you find that you had less rhythmic options in a ¾ time signature ?
Re internalizing, I was pleasantly surprised at how naturally Section A and the last half of Section B came to me. However I reworked the first half of Section B about 25 times before I thought the melody was acceptable. It’s because it was in Ab7 which to my ears sounds like a very happy key, in all its modes. But I didn’t want to make it sound too happy because I thought it should sound a bit chilled like a lullaby. Do you consciously try to make phrases sound sad or happy ?
You know, it was a long time ago when I composed that, and I don't particularly remember the process. I remember struggling on Just Friends, but not particularly this one.
About linear: At this point, I would not try to overthink too much. Just create nice melodies. Some guidelines will be to use a good amount of arpeggios Vs scales or chromatism. So with a couple arpeggios in a row, you can easily run up 2 octaves, which is a nice big spread. Then come right down with chromatism. Beeing a be-bop fan myself, something like F A C E G Gb F E Eb on a Fmaj7 to Fm7 appeals to me. I just love those lines, so I try to shoot for stuff like that. This really lays out the harmony, which makes it easy for people to listen, yet, it has a lot of interest. Obviously, Bird, Sonny Stitt, Coltrane, Bud or Barry Harris are monster of this style, and I love them all.
I have stopped these composition (I think I went to 30 or so) and I'm now doing mostly improv, but the way I tackled them was to record constantly short phrases. Then when sometimes I heard something I liked, I would rewind and listen. Too often, I would hear something great, then lose it. Recording the process helped a lot. Whatever works for you. I used chords and scales as guidelines, but mostly, what I heard. Sometimes it came out odd, not really authentic, but that's part of the fun. I would start by playing the chords several times before singing a melody. Sometimes I would go back to a recording of someone to dig for ideas.
At first, it took me easily 10 hours. Towards the end, it was closer to a couple.
Before you konw it, when you're done with 20 compositions, you'll find it much easier to improvise on random tunes.
Hi Knotty Thanks for your helpful and practical suggestions. I like the sound of the chromaticism in your compositions (have you sent any to your famous uncle ?!) I just tried your bebop example and it sounded really cool. So if the chord is a major sounding chord, is it generally okay to use the minor scale over it ? Re recording snippets, did you play by ear on the piano the phrases that you learnt from trumpeters, sax players, clarinetists etc ?
>> So if the chord is a major sounding chord, is it generally okay to use the minor scale over it ?
I'm not so sure what you mean. The thing with chromaticism is that just about anything works. There are some fairly easy way to do it, for example, just playing a 1/2 step above or below, and landing on a chord tone on a strong beat. That works really good. In general, you can do anything you want, but when you can go smoothly from arpeggio to scale to chromatic and yet maintain the harmony, it sounds pretty good.
I realize my example above is hard to follow, plus it's just something I came up with yesterday, nothing amazing. Yet ... Start on beat 1 with just 8th notes. You are outlying a Fmaj7, then going down chromatically to the 7th of F-7 on beat 1. That's an example of a line that works really nice to me. I used that on Solar yesterday.
Experiment with stuff, that's the point of the compositions. I wouldn't try to think too much.
>> Re recording snippets, did you play by ear on the piano the phrases that you learnt from trumpeters, sax players, clarinetists etc ? If I'm stuck, I might go to a recording and see what so and so did. That will give me a good idea of what to use. I remember getting stuck on Just friends. Fortunately, I have some great recordings, in particular Benny Carter with Oscar Peterson. It's a fairly simple tune, but with a couple of sharp turns. It's a lot of fun. Also on Yardbird suite, I was a bit stuck, I ended up borrowing one of Bird's riff from a different tune. Be-bop tunes are actually easier in a sense because the harmony is so complex that you don't really need to come up with anything special with the melody, it almost always sounds good. Take All the things you are, you can just play 1/4 notes all days using nothing but chord tones and still sound good. The same thing on So What won't get you far.
You’ve answered my question really well, thank you Knotty. By major sounding, I meant maj 7 or dominant 7. As you said, chromaticism works well for just about anything.
You have to put in the effort but JOI is worth it. I’m not into shortcuts. I’m encouraged because I know you’re about to finish the course, knowing that someone else is persevering and now is reaping the benefits of the hard work. Didn’t some famous jazzer come up with “Discipline is the price of freedom “ ?
You're right, I'm about finished with the course. Over a year and a half already. That's interesting. But I can tell you Dave still has plenty in store for me.
You're right, I'm about finished with the course. Over a year and a half already. That's interesting. But I can tell you Dave still has plenty in store for me.
Knotty,
I'm just starting the course myself (on guitar, not piano - I gotta focus on one instrument for the time being - doing both jazz guitar and taking up jazz piano from scratch is just to much for me). I'm on Lesson 2, about to move onto Lesson 3. I'd like to ask you what you think of the course overall, now that you've completed it. Did you do both book 1 and book 2?. How do you feel the course benefited you as a musician, esp. in terms of being able to improvise? Any other comments (good or bad) on the course?
Knotty I forgot to tell you that I’ve been practising hard to play in 4s. When I do my Hanons, I accent the first of every four notes, and almost ghost the other ones.
Could you please help me with a couple of other questions ?
1. How do I approach the accenting when the phrase doesn’t start on Beat 1 ?
2. For songs in ¾ time, do I accent the first of every six notes for eighth-notes ?
I've been studying with Dave for a year and a half now, so I'm probably getting as much from the course as I can. I have to say, Dave is not just a fantastic performer, he's also an amazing teacher. I've enjoyed it a lot. I never got bored. I never asked myself once "what should I practice today?", there's always plenty to do.
It took about 8 months or so into lessons before we started improvising. It's not like I didn't improvise before, but with Dave, I did it with a plan. We took it slow, focusing on what's important: Creating beautiful melodies and feeling in 4s. That's the bottom line. We started improvising on simple progressions, a few measures at a time, then simple tunes. At first, very slowly.
I'm starting to be much more confident playing more tunes, with more ease, and at faster tempos. Meaning I can play long 8 bars lines of 8th lines that make sense to me, much faster than before. I feel more in control.
I think it's great that C_A started this thread, and I'm happy to share my experience.
I would not know how to teach you guitar at all, I would not know whether the hanons made sense or not. I remember once Dave telling me not to try them on Sax. I can see why I don't know about the guitar. I imagine the voicings would also be completely different.
I'm on lesson 50, getting to the end of book 2. I started working on Bill Evans arrangements, and we will start arranging our own tunes pretty soon (a couple months maybe). The hanons will be replaced by tunes and licks from the Omnibook.
>> I forgot to tell you that I’ve been practising hard to play in 4s. When I do my Hanons, I accent the first of every four notes, >> and almost ghost the other ones. The feeling in 4 has 2 purposes 1. Slightly, as in slightly, accent the 1st. That's where the swing will come from. 2. It will help you think longer lines. By thinking in blocks of 4. That's not to say you can't do something else, you can play in 2s or in 3s all you want. But the basic feel is in 4s.
>> 1. How do I approach the accenting when the phrase doesn’t start on Beat 1 ? I don't overthink that stuff. If you just focus on blocks of 4 notes, I'm pretty sure the accent will fall on the right beat. In this case, I'd consider the notes before the strong beat some kind of pick up.
>> 2. For songs in ¾ time, do I accent the first of every six notes for eighth-notes ? Good question. I never asked myself. To me the accent just falls on 1. I'm working on My Fav. Things now, I'll try to remember to ask that next time.
The feeling in 4 is something that I think will come once you practice it for a while. I think I'm getting pretty good with it, so now I don't really focus on this anymore. One thing at a time ...
Practice your feeling in 4 by improvising on a short vamp. D-7 G7 Cmaj7 Cmaj7 Do 4 bars, then stop At 72 bpm. Improvise a line. Take a break, do another. Think 4 notes at a time.
You could also practice it on the tunes from the book. And of course, you should feel it when you sing with the masters.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions. When you say you're studying with Dave, are you taking actual lessons with him, or just working out of the book (or both)? I fear if you're actually working with him one on one regularly, that your experience may differ substantially from mine, which is of course just out of the book. But that said, I'm putting faith in the process, and just working through the lessons.
I'm also taking things a step further in some respects: rather than using the included CD for accompanying material, I'm recording myself comping the chords to the two weekly tunes, and then playing over top of that. The chord voicings are not always possible on the guitar, so I'm being a bit more liberal there - depending on the situation, I may opt to play just the top three notes to get a rootless voicing (which is pretty hip anyway), or just fall back on a stock drop-2 voicing that I already know (a good example of this is the prevalence of the m6 chords in the songs - those are very tough, if not downright impossible, to play as is on the guitar, but the drop-2 versions are quite accessible and sound just as good).
I'm also writing down my master solo transcriptions in addition to learning how to sing over them, and then learning how to play the solos on my instrument from my transcription. I've got the first two Louis Armstrong transcriptions ("Struttin' With Some BBQ" and "The Last Time") on google-docs if anyone wants to take a look at them:
As for the Hanon exercises, they are not always easy on the guitar, but I'm doing them anyway, in all 12 keys. It certainly is good for my fingers.
I have another question. I've seen previous posts in this thread where people are talking about making their own compositions and arrangements. Is that part of the course? I'm not seeing it anywhere in the books.
yes, I have a one on one every other Sunday. We follow the course, but we do some things slightly differently.
For example, we don't practice the lines in 12 keys. Not that you shouldn't, but he doesn't really emphasize it.
And then, there's everything else. We do composition early on. That's a great exercise prior to improvising. I've described it in the previous pages, if you want to check it out. Also we do improvisations, for that, there's a path too. And we do arrangements. We have a path for that too. Obviously, this would be very different on guitar ...
Knotty, what's your take on Skype lessons? Do you think they would be as effective as seeing him in person? I've been going through the lines in all 12 keys and it seems to take forever.
In some respects, guitarists have it easy when learning things in different keys compared to pianists - most of the chords, scales, arpeggios, and anything else that is pattern-based can be moved around the fretboard verbatim and instantly be in another key. As long as it doesn't include that pesky B string, of course. :-) Then the shapes/patterns change. So BPF, I feel your pain.
On the other hand, piano has advantages over guitar in a lot of ways. too. Guitarists as a group shriek and run away in horror when they encounter keys with more than one flat. Show them a bass clef and watch as their eyes glaze over. And because most notes in one octave can be played in up to 5 different places on the guitar, it makes picking a particular voicing a real thinking exercise.
Choose your poison, I guess. :-)
Anyway, I'll be spending most of the summer cranking through the Book 1 exercises (or at least as many as I can get through - I estimate I will finish 1-10 by the beginning of the fall semester). I'm glad to hear others have had success in working through this method.
The skype lesson format works perfect for me. It's very convenient. If I lived in NY, I would take in person, but I don't think it matters that much.
The limitation is playing together at the same time. You can't really do that. But what we do often is he'll play a line to set the feel of what I'm supposed to do, then I will take the next line. Dave is really good at putting himself at your level. When he shows something, he doesn't bury it under all sorts of embellishments that you could only dream of playing. That makes it easy to understand.
Hi Knotty Thanks for the amazing Coltrane modal interpretation. I especially like the way the modes lead back to the original My Favorite Things melody in 4:35 and 9:20. Would you say that Brad Mehldau is tonal ?
FatJeff Thank you for uploading the transcriptions for the Louis Armstrong songs. I slow the Armstrong songs down on Transcribe but because I’m new to jazz, I can now check all my phrasing back to the transcriptions you’ve provided. I hope you’re having as much fun singing them as I am.
Re compositions, it was the general fun and positive vibe of the JOI course and the analysis of artists’ songs on Dave Frank’s masterclasses which inspired me to do them.
Bluespianofan Because I don’t do the JOI line, I find the length of each practice session very manageable.
Sorry, guys--I meant to say that just the JOI Solo pattern (not the JOI line) is taking me awhile to get through. At 88 bpm it still takes me a couple of minutes on each key to play it smoothly (because my chord changes aren't fast or smooth) I'm still on Lesson 1!
Hi Bluespianofan I am VERY sorry. I didn't have my book in front of me at my computer. I meant the JOI Solo Pattern the first exercise of each lesson. You only have to worry about it when you have time.
You can move onto the next lesson if you are spending more than two and a half weeks per lesson, because one of the components of each lesson is to keep on revising previous tunes.
Are you finding that it is the JOI Solo Pattern that keeps you from moving onto Lesson 2 ?
Also for Lesson 3 I slowed down the jazz tune from 96 bpm to 80 bpm so that I could move on. For Lesson 4 I slowed down the jazz tune from 80 bpm to 76 bpm so that I could move on.
Don't worry about perfection. As Dave said, it is the learning process which is important.
Sorry, guys--I meant to say that just the JOI Solo pattern (not the JOI line) is taking me awhile to get through. At 88 bpm it still takes me a couple of minutes on each key to play it smoothly (because my chord changes aren't fast or smooth) I'm still on Lesson 1!
Hmm, no wonder I am breezing through it - I am just playing the solo line by itself, not the chords (kind of hard to do both at the same time on the guitar). I didn't think about that aspect for pianists! I do get exposure to those chords though, since the pattern is taken out of the last tune in the lesson.
I think it's great that you could transcribe to different keys at 88 bpm for Lesson 1.
Do you transcribe on paper, or in your head as you go through the keys? For me I wrote out the chords and the solo pattern in each key since I read music fairly well. Should I be trying to do them without writing them down?
It's fine to write out everything. What you're doing sounds awesome if you have the time. Sorry about how I inaccurately used the word transcribe. I meant tranposing the Solo Pattern in each key. I don't do Exercise 1. I learn the Hanons, the chord voicings and the Blues tune quickly but take a while with the jazz tune. With my spare time I do Hanons with my left hand. From now on, I will use my spare time to do what you do with the Solo Pattern.
When I play the Hanons, I don't write out anything. But again, it's fine to write if your learning method is visual. Is your background classical ?
Yes, it's classical (damn). I don't need to write out the Hanons either, and I do them equally left and right hand, around 150 bpm. The swinging is coming along well, I think. And the tunes are going pretty well. I'm just going to spend a couple of more days and really try to nail Exercise 1 in all the keys, then some good time on the last Exercise (I just got Transcribe! set up on my Mac) before moving on to Lesson 2. Thanks for all the input!
Well it sounds like you're having lots of fun which is the main thing. It's such an enjoyable course isn't it ? After the first lesson, I also found my swing was coming along well, thanks to the combination of Hanons and continuous relistening to the way Dave played the tunes on the CD. Hanons in both hands at 150bpm is amazing. Congrats.
About Hanons, the purpose is to find a challenge tempo, whatever it is, and everynow and then, raise it a click. So for example, if you're playing @152bpm and starting to feel comfortable, bump it to 160bpm.
When you get to about 160, make the metronome click on 2 & 4.
Depending on the exercise, I play them between 160 and 220.
This is something I do every morning for 10 minutes or so.
BPF, I think it's fine to write down the transposition for the solo pattern, but that will take you too much time. Ideally, you can sing the pattern, then switch it in another key without writing it down. Remember, you want to sing just about everything you play.
Yes, that is how I've been doing the Hanons by bumping the speed up as I get faster. It will be interesting to try them on 2 & 4. The solo pattern transposition will be hard for me without writing it down, but I realize that the best way for me to learn is the way you are saying. Unfortunately singing and not using written music are my big weaknesses! Thanks for the tips.
I would imagine singing lines and transposing to be difficult for somebody with a classical background, but then again, reading and technique are usually weaknesses for those not classically trained.
Singing the hanons, singing the JOI tunes, and singing along with solos will really help you in that regards. When you sing the tunes, you can do like Jeff, record the left hand alone, and sing the tune along in the car (or wherever). Or of course at the piano. When you sing, you don't have to sing well, but you should make an effort to sing the right pitches (versus mumbling). Another thing to take slowly. Switching octaves is normal when your voice can't reach.
Hello Knots Re the Hanons, did you make the metronome click on 2 and 4 so as to concentrate on the backbeat ? After what tempo did you stop swinging and start playing straight ?
>> Re the Hanons, did you make the metronome click on 2 and 4 so as to concentrate on the backbeat ? after 180 or so, it becomes hard to follow the metronome. Playing with the metronome on 2 & 4 is much more relaxed.
>> After what tempo did you stop swinging and start playing straight ? I'm not so sure the 2 are opposite. I'm not into ratio and such, but I think as the tempo goes up, I play more straight. I would hope to keep swinging, though.
Wow, you must have hot chops Knotty to play the Hanons at 220bpm ! Do you still sing at this speed ?! I’m on 108bpm for Lesson 5. I started at 92bpm for Lesson 1.
>> play the Hanons at 220bpm ! Do you still sing at this speed ?! probably more like humming. I stay on one key until I get to 160bpm for almost all exercises. Then I swtich to the next key, until I'm at 160, and so on. Then I play them in a row, and I bump up the speed a little.
I stay on each hanon for 2 weeks, so I have time to do that.
Ok Knotty, I've made a note in my book to switch my metronome to 2 and 4 when I reach 160 bpm for the Hanons. So are you still accenting the same beats as before (the only difference is that you put the metronome to 80 )?
>> Thanks for clarifying Knotty. I think I will over-accentuate beats for now, until the counting in 4s gets ingrained into my muscle memory. I think that's exactly what you don't want to do. You're going to end up putting the accent every other 8th note and that won't sound good. Keep it simple with the Hanons for now. I think it's ok if you play all straight. When you start improvising is when you'll worry about counting in 4s.
yes, I think that will help you. It's difficult if the metronome is very slow, but I think it's good for you.
Also, note that you're getting second hand advice here. My point is that I've never been told to emphasize this beat or that beat, or play any note on any particular beat either. Therefore, I think these things just work themselves out by using other rules.
Hi Knotty Thanks very much for getting back to me. Is it like accenting every six notes when the measure is in eighth notes ? How is My Favorite Things going for you and is your band Knotty by Nature still meeting up ? I will post my third composition soon. Every time I look at it I change it, not necessarily for the better....I've gone through three long pencils !
The band still meets almost every week. Some tunes are really good to blow on, like Solar and There will never be another you. We have enough material to play for almost 2 hours now. That's really cool.
On the compositions, you don't have to go back and erase, you can also write more than one chorus. Obviously, the more you think about it, the more you get out of it. It's like tearing the tune apart. It won't teach you to play fast, but it will teach you to become more melodic, and play longer lines.
That's excellent that you have so much in your jazz vocab to play for two hours. I'm singing/ trying to transcribe Armstrong's Right To Sing the Blues and Lester Young's Foolin' Myself. I so love those tunes.
When you say "write more than one chorus", does this mean writing two Theme As ?
Hi This is the music and the sheet for my third composition. It's hard to hear me singing on my recording but I AM doing it ! As usual I value your comments and criticisms.
I bet this one was quite a challenge. You did a nice job. A few things for now. Try to outline the harmony. That's quite a challenge to outline the harmony of a tune while providing interest, but actually, on a tune with interesting changes like this, sticking to chord tones on downbeats is probably a good idea.
1st bar is good, while the 2nd bar kind of loses me. The 3rd bar is hip, but the 4th outline 5, b3 and b9.
A good exercise to let your ears hear the harmony is to play nothing but arpeggios for 10 minutes or so. 1-3-5-7.
I'll listen a bit more later, maybe I can give a bit more feedback.
Knotty You're right, I found Themes A and B were hard whilst Theme C came naturally to me. The reason I took longer than usual was that when I checked back to your composition, some of my notes/scales sounded similar to yours in a few measures, and I didn't want to plagiarise. It's because I listened to your composition several times and some of your nice phrases must have been in my subconscious. Anyway I ended up revising whole phrases.
I also need to work on my swing for 3/4 time. It feels less natural to me than swinging in 4/4 time.
I will try hard in my fourth composition to let the harmony ring through. I know you said before not to worry too much about the rules but I will only stick to chord tones on beats 1 2 3 and 4 in my next exercise. What about when the chord is altered e.g. G7b9 - this changes the character of the chord completely from happy to spooky - shouldn't the b9 be emphasised in the arpeggio ?
>> I know you said before not to worry too much about the rules but I will only stick to chord tones on beats 1 2 3 and 4 in my next exercise. It's not a hard rule, but it will help a lot. It's good to realize when you are not doing it. Chromatism are perfectly fine, and that's one way to break the rule.
>> What about when the chord is altered e.g. G7b9 - this changes the character of the chord completely from happy to spooky - shouldn't the b9 be emphasised in the arpeggio ? You can experiment with 2 arpeggios. 1 3 5 7 and 3 5 7 9 If you are practicing 1 3 5 7, then no, the 9th does not matter. 1 3 5 7 is easy to practice because usually, you will not be wrong which notes it is. 9th are not always as easy. 9th also sometimes don't work great, for example on a Bb7b5.
hey Knotty, I thought your composition was really kool, I liked everything about it - your melody, the natural swing with which you played it, and also the rhythm section.
I'm up to Lesson 8 for everything - singing, Hanons, chord voicings and tunes. Like you, I'm finding that I'm learning the tunes more quickly the more lessons I do. I tend to be a few lessons ahead of the changes I'm composing over.
I can't believe that I started JOI at the end of March this year and I'm already composing. Hanging out with you and Dave Frank is good for me !
Knotty Do you mean Lesson 15 for playing or composing ? I’m looking forward to it but also slightly scared, I think it takes courage to improvise! By then my jazz vocab will have increased and I can be more confident.
I mean playing. Don't worry, you'll start slowly. You do it a way where you feel in control from the beginning. The compositions and tunes are helping you getting ready for that.
on Hanons and tune, I'm on lesson 52 For composition, I'm doing Days and Wine which is lesson 32. For improv, I'm doing Summertime this week. For singing with solos, I just started Clifford Brown on All the things. I'm still doing a couple of weeks of 2 handed (drop 2) voicings.
drop 2 are really easy. You play any 4 or 5 note voicing for a chord, and you drop the 2nd from the top an octave lower. That's it.
So for example C-7 Eb G Bb D becomes Bb G Bb D
Or Bb D Eb G becomes Eb Bb D G
or C Eb G Bb becomes G C Eb Bb
Sometimes, you can also use drop 3 chords, or just really open chords that function well within the context of a progression, but aren't so clear by themselves. For example C# F# B E works as an Emaj7
If you pick up a book of Bill Evans arrangements, you will notice that, for the most part, it's a lot of drop 2 chords. They are hard to see at first, and then you kind of get it.
Got it ! So I keep the top note when I do the drop 2. Great examples Knots. The 2nd example sounds particularly beautiful and the 3rd example sounds very open indeed.
When you said that C# F# B E functions well as an E maj 7 I’m confused because there is no G# the (major) 3 ?
Knotty, re the stacked fourths, I really like your 1st example C# F# A E, it is such a cool way to play E sus, I just tried it and it sounds really nice. For your 2nd example D# A C F# why is it C and not C# ? Doesn’t the C create an F# dim sound ?
Yeah, I like your ii V I IV sequences. In the heat of the moment when you're improvising over many modulations, do you find that it helps you more than thinking in terms of the primary key ?
Over the next few days I'm going to think of scales and run them through with you.
I found your suggested exercise of listing the scales very helpful. I don’t want to take up too much of your time but I want to let you know that I’ve completed the exercise.
Great Knotty. Thanks for simplifying this for me. Your G harm min and F harm minor sound particularly cool for Section C. Do you think the A harm minor (with the raised G) at the beginning of Section C sounds a bit weird over Bb maj7 chord ?
No that won't work over Bbmaj7. Over the Bbmaj7, the Bbmaj will work. it's just a 2 5 1 here. Also the harmonic minor works great on a minor 2 5 1 which resolved on a minor 6 chord. If you play a minor 7th, it doesn't work that great. So it's up to you. The older fakebooks have -7 chords, while the more recent ones will have more -6 chords.
Just awesome Knotty. You are one confident and competent dude. Very cool soloing and comping. I thought your swing, sense of rhythm and choice of scales were wonderful. I enjoyed it a lot.
Very interesting. I just tried it. The harmonic minor scale sounded hip when I converted the min 7 chord to a min 6 chord. Is the min 6 a more modern "invention"/sound ?
Thanks for the compliments. Playing with folks live is just a different experience. It's a lot of fun. Everybody thinks the other guy plays better. This is not a good example of feeling in 4s. I think about it, then lose it, then get it back... But Solar is a great jamming tune.
Re: -6 The -6 has a 6 and a major 7 in it. So it has minor 3rd and major 7th. You usually play the 6 instead of the 7, but both go. This shows in the scale too. Arpeggios go 1 m3 5 M7 9
I just listened to your Solar recording. I don't know what to say because "awesome" and "fantastic" have already been used, and other words I can think of sound too bland. How about this: !#%$#%^#$%$^%& awesome and $^%**&%^&#$%^ fantastic! Your hard work is really paying off!
It's the first time we record, and we just set up the mics the quick and dirty way and decided to record our practice session. We have like 10 more, some better than others, I have not listened to bounced them yet.
Here's what I liked in this one: Your phrasing is good. The length of the phrases is good, the amount of space is right, you start them on a variety of beats and use the right quantity of 1/8 vs 1/4 notes. This is a really important element that you're getting right here. Playing and singing the joi lines probably helped you along that path. So you have the main ingredient of a good solo down.
Now this isn't a particularly easy tune to solo on, but don't you feel like if you could improvise that way, you'd be pretty satisfied with yourself. I think these compositions represent the best you can hope for when you improv. Well, it's probably not that simple, but you get the idea.
You choice of scale is good too. F harm minor going to Eb blues is good. I see the typo last note of 1st measure (B natural). That's a nice touch in terms of approaching tones. I also like how you placed some tensions here and there. For example playing the 5 on the G-7b5 but quickly resolving to b5 worked well for me.
Gotta take off, will add a few more comments in a bit.
I see a recurrent printing error now. When you put an accidental before a note (sharp or flat), the accidental keep applying until the end of the measure.
In the B section, you choose to take a lot more liberty with how you end your phrases. You end either on the 6 or, on the Maj7 in a half dim chord. This is particularly tense.
Now some things you might want to try: * more arpeggios. I mean 1 3 5 7 and occasionally 3 5 7 9. Going up, or down. Most of your composition is scalar, which is ok, but if you squeeze in a couple arpeggios, it will outline the harmony real nice and you'll also cover a lot more range. Yes, it is difficult to sing. * Start on up beats once in a while. * Try a little more repetition. You can do that by either repeating a short passage, or by moving that passing up and down in the same key or a different key. You can repeat and then expand. You can also use a motif.
Also, throughout the composition, you are using a device that I don't particularly care for. 1st 3 notes of the 1st measure. 1st 3 notes of B section. 1st 3 notes, 3rd measure of B, or 1st 3 notes 7th measure of B. Do you see it? I would try to avoid this. This works ok played really fast, kind of to blur a note. But as 1/8th, I don't really like it.
Finally, one of the thing you will need to get out of is this feeling in 2s that you play in. You need to constantly remind yourself to play blocks of 4 notes, and only accent one note out of 4. This will be the greatest challenge when you start on improvisation. Until you get this straightened out in improvisation, I would hold off on adding anything else such as rhythmic LH, up tempos or complex scales.
This is your best composition so far, you're getting a good hang of it. When you are ready to do some improv, we should start on that.
Hello Knotty I leave in a couple of hours, I timed it so that I could finish this composition and study your detailed comments !! Once again, you have been most helpful. Yes all the singing must have filtered into my subconscious and helped me develop the varied phrasing. For my 5th composition I will try to start on upbeats as well, as well as working on repetition.
Section B was my least favourite section. I agree that ending on the maj 7 for the Gmin7b5 phrase sounded a bit weird.
So my weaknesses are scalar movement and counting in 2s. Did you practise your Hanons in a particular way to help you count in 4s ?
When I come back in a month, I will revise Lesson 13 and then go onto Lesson 14. I know that you said that at Lesson 15 I should be ready for improvising. Should I hold off improvising until I get the counting in 4s right ? How long did it take you to have counting in 4s ingrained ?
What is the jazz standard for Lesson 5 ? The JOI jazz song is Sweet and Low.
>> So my weaknesses are scalar movement no, scalar is great, you just want to add some chords here and there. If anything, your strength is scalar movement
>> counting in 2s yeah, but don't sweat it. I never bothered with it until I really started to improvise. All in good time.
>> Did you practise your Hanons in a particular way to help you count in 4s I don't think so.
>> Should I hold off improvising until I get the counting in 4s right ? No, you will see how painless improvising will be. That's when you'll want to really nail the counting in 4s. You hold off on other things such as LH rhythms, speed, complicated scales, reharm, you name it.
>>What is the jazz standard for Lesson 5 ? The JOI jazz song is Sweet and Low. Sugar.
Hi Knotty I hope you’re well. I’m back in Australia now and can’t wait to get back into JOI. During the next few days I will do the chord analysis of Sugar/ Sweet and Low for you to check. Did you do a composition for this ? Can I please confirm that when you say counting in 4s, you mean every four notes as opposed to every four beats ? So for a measure in 4/4 time, I put the accent on beats 1 and the 3 ?
>> Can I please confirm that when you say counting in 4s, you mean every four notes as opposed to every four beats ? So for a measure in 4/4 time, I put the accent on beats 1 and the 3 ?
Yes, you count your notes in blocks of 4. You slightly accent the 1st note. Counting in 4s is not just about accents, it's about creating longer, more melodic lines.
If you take any jazz recording, and I mean just about any, where someone plays 8ths, unless he is doing something specific to get some kind of effect, you will hear this feeling in 4. Let me try to extract a few examples for you.
When you start improvising, you will keep something dead simple until you've completely taken care of this. When playing from sheet or memorized, for me at least, it's a bit more difficult, so you don't necessarily need to worry too much, but start paying attention to this when you listen to records.
If you have transcribe, slow down a lot and see if you can hear blocks of 4. It doesn't always start with a block of 4, or ends with one. But in the middle of the line, that's what you have.
> I put the accent on beats 1 and the 3 Don't worry about counting the beats so much. Just counts blocks of 4 notes. When we do improv, this will be more obvious.
Hi Knotty Thanks very much for your composition and the mp3s you created for me to slow down to 25% with Transcribe - in particular for Keith Jarrett and Bill Evans, I could then hear the blocks of 4 notes.
I had an excellent time in San Francisco and England. One of my highlights was the Jacky Terrasson trio at Yoshi’s San Francisco. The evening had everything I could want - Jacky could swing, play ballads, standards and own compositions, use his left hand, use all registers of the piano.
looks great. Not familiar with the notation ii+ what does it mean? Anyway yes, a- then d-, with just minor 2-5s.
Harmonic minor scales will work great. As far as arpeggios, on the 1 minor, you can use 1 3b 5 M7. So for example A C E G#. Blues scales will work great also
This such a great tune to compose a solo on. have fun
Hello Knots Thanks for confirming I’m on the right track and for the harmonic minor example. For ii+ I just meant that it wasn’t simply a straightforward min7 chord, that it had a color added to it such as b5.
What are you working on and how is your band going ?
Working on Donna Lee, the head and the changes in a couple of keys. I started the very early arrangement also. And writing an arrangement on Unforgettable.
Band is doing ok, it's been hard with the vacation and all, but we're having fun.
Hey Geoff You’re most welcome and it’s good you’ve joined the forum. I’m really looking forward to composing over the changes to Sugar. Do you have a recording device ? If so, it would be great to hear your jamming. I like Stanley Turrentine’s improv here.
Knotty The songs you’re working on sound complex. I’m nowhere near your standard. This weekend I will look through the Bill Evans arrangement book and try to find something easier than Very Early
Geoff This shows the timing of the chord changes for Sugar/ Dave Frank’s Sweet and Low. You will probably find this more useful for jamming. Have a kool time.
>> The songs you’re working on sound complex. Not really. Donna Lee sounds scary, but it's the changes to Indiana. The head is tricky, but that part is just memorizing.
The very early arrangement is very playable at any level. It's just how much time you want to spend on it. I think 4 hours and you'll be able to play it slow (say 60 bpm). Another 3 hours and you'll be going 100 or so.
I think the first one I played was Letter to Evan or Periscope. All of these are easy. I am not good at playing from sheet. Someone with decent reading skills would sight read them easy.
your box link above is incorrect. To share, you have to right click the link , choose share and "get link to file" A simple URL copy paste does not work.
in these arrangements, it's worth spending a bit of time trying to understand why they work. While these are easy to play, they are harmonically very advanced. In letter to Evan, check out the 3rd and 4th line and see how he moves from G to C to F. You'll want to reuse some of these tricks, whichever bits you understand, in your own arrangements later on.
Knotty Your rendition is so very beautiful, thank you for sharing. I'm going to start learning it this week. Nowadays when you play ballads, do you prefer to work with the metronome/ play rubato/ both ?
>> Nowadays when you play ballads, do you prefer to work with the metronome/ play rubato/ both ? I learn with the metronome. Or else, it takes forever. I learn the tune in strict time, and then once I got it, I turn the metronome off and play freely. Dave told me that playing solo piano is compared to reading a poem. So that's how I try to think of it now, tell a story as if reading a poem, rather than singing a song or reading a book.
I so love that analogy. Amongst other things, does it imply that when one plays a ballad, one is free to phrase in whatever way that one feels is appropriate at the time ?
I'm not really sure what it means. But if you watch someone recite a poem: fast, stop, breath, strong, soft, that's the idea. Playing solo, you get to play with time a lot. It makes it really had to transcribe, because some parts are in strict time, while some part just drag, and some runs just don't quite fit. But it works.
great album to check out: Monty Alexander @ Maybeck
I’m glad you've introduced me to Monty Alexander. I’ve now finished listening to a sampler of his Maybeck album, yes there are a lot of ballads and he plays them as if reading poetry. I’ve put the album on my wishlist, in the meantime I will buy the ballad Estate.
Nice thread. Generally The first chorus of a tune, whether rubato or a ballad, can be delivered like a poem. After that chorus, you should stay in time often until the end. However, anything is possible! If it sounds good, it's good!
hehe Knots, it’s been getting kind of expensive knowing you !! I’ve just ordered Dave McKenna @ Maybeck on Amazon. But it will take me EVEN longer than usual to receive it, I’ve shipped it to an English address as Amazon won’t ship it here.
Hey Dave Thanks for taking the time to help us out. By chorus do you mean Theme A ? In Letter to Evan is this the 1st 16 measures which ends on the dominant G7 ? I’m really happy that your next masterclass is on Bill Evans solo.
Chorus means the entire tune, through the entire changes. It's typically 32 measures. Usually you'd play the melody once (1st chorus), then play solo for a chorus or two, and them you might play one last chorus with the melody. During the solo, typically you play in time, either left hand chords, or walking bass, stride etc...
What you refer to theme A is usually called A section. Often, jazz standards have an A section and a B section, going AABA, the B section being the bridge. AABA would be one chorus.
In the bill evans book you got, I believe they always only write down one chorus, so it's really up to you what you want to do after you've played that.
This is going really great for you. I like how you use similar rhythms between lines. Also, you are not afraid to play with various sounds. Like Dave was saying in the Bill Evans class, anything can happen at any time, but do watch for those approaching notes on downbeats. For example, 1st measure, Eb on the A-6 is because you are creating a bluesy line, but tense. Particularly on the 1st beat, it will hide the underlying harmony. You could also try this as a crush note to give a bluesy flavor. In this case, I think it works, but try the 4th (D) instead, or the 5(E) to see how it sounds and what you like best.
In bar 5, on the A-6 again, I would probably replace that C# with something else, unless you wanted to play an A7 instead of A-, therefore changing the harmony. Playing notes 1/2 step above a chord tone, on the downbeat is going to clash. So use carefully.
Likewise in bar 7, we have the E7 on beat 3, but play a D#, a major 7.
Somehow I like the last measure, despite ending on a C# on top of the A-.
You're starting your lines on offbeats, which is most common in Jazz, so that's great. You can try mixing it up once in a while. Your use of ascending and descending lines I think is also getting better. Triplets like you did in the last measure work very nicely. In fact, I'm working on Confirmation right now, and Bird uses this device every single line.
Hi Knotty I want to say thanks for your comments on all my compositions. Your detailed feedback has helped me to improve quickly. I found this one easier to compose largely because you had recommended that I use repetition and arpeggios. Who can I listen to for awesome ascending and descending arpeggios ?
Yes the repeated motif in the A section sounded tense; as you pointed out “playing notes half a step above a chord tone on the downbeat is going to clash”. What is a crush note in jazz ?
Am I starting to count in 4s ?
I’m on Lesson 15, the JOI jazz tune is Fowl Play. Is this based on Byrd like by Freddie Hubbard ?
Did you do a composition on Lesson 6 All of Me ?
I’m really looking forward to hearing your Confirmation by Bird.
>> Who can I listen to for awesome ascending and descending arpeggios ? All of the singing along tunes listed in the book are going to be a great source of solos. I think the idea is to provide a good amount of continuity. I remember some of your first lines where a little bit scattered, but this is getting better now.
>> What is a crush note in jazz ? A grace note. Very bluesy. A minor pentatonic, you play the Eb before the E. But you just slide the finger, making it dirty.
>> Am I starting to count in 4s ? yes. When you start improvising, this will get even easier. You will see, it's a simplified way to instantly swing.
>> I’m on Lesson 15, the JOI jazz tune is Fowl Play. Is this based on Byrd like by Freddie Hubbard ? Yardbird Suite, by Charlie Parker. Great tune!
>> I’m really looking forward to hearing your Confirmation by Bird. I'm not sure I'll record it. I learned Donna Lee in 2 keys and didn't really feel like recording.
Let me know when you're ready to start improvising!
Hi Knotty Thanks for your Composition 6 and I love the funny title.
I've just listened to Yardbird Suite on you-tube, it sounds real fun.
On improvising, I think I will start in the New Year. By then I will have increased my jazz vocab and I will have done a couple more compositions. Do you agree ?
Hi Knotty left me with a hard act to follow when he recorded Letter to Evan. This is the first Bill Evans song I’ve played. It’s special because not only did he compose the music but the lyrics as well. This is Andy LaVerne’s arrangement, I’ve only made a couple of additions - after Dave's masterclass, I couldn't wait to throw in the "large budding flower"s in the LH at the end of the B section.
Very nicely played!! I really liked that large budding flower. What a great place to put it, really well done.
I have no criticism whatsoever. Keep playing it once in a while if you can, and each time, it will get a bit better. Depending on how much you like it, you can add even more effects.
Maybe this: watch the sustain pedal, in parts, it was a bit heavy.
About the chord analysis. I'm not really into that kind of thing because too me, it's a bit subjective. I would personally say that the tune modulates a lot more than you write, but if for you, it stays in the key, then so be it.
Probably more important are the preferred scales, chords and extensions.
>>Thanks for your guidance Knotty. >>I’m on Lesson 16 Hanons at 120 bpm and singing Charlie Christian.
sounds great. Try to gradually increase the tempo on those hanons. Once in a while, increase by a notch (124, then 128, etc...). Assuming you are playing 120 quarter notes. When you get to Bird and anthropoly, even slowing down to 60% will be a solid 200bpm, and it won't be scales no more . Although, very similar to the hanons you're doing now.
>>Hi Knots, what do you think about my attempt at determining scales ?
I never got so detailed about it. This is what I would do, very simple:
Cmaj for 2 bars Amaj for 2 bars A lydian dom for 1 bar D harm minor for 3 A harm minor for 4 G maj for 2 C maj for 2
Then repeat until the last 2 lines Fmaj for 1 F harm minor for 1 D for 1 C for 4
This is the simplistic approach I take on every new tune. No need to make things complicated. Later for that. For now, it's much better to focus on solid solos that make a lot of sense. Take the time to really dig in the sound of each chord and scale tone.
So right Knotty, it’s great you’ve simplified it for me so that I can focus on being more idea oriented. Thanks for introducing me to the Lydian dom scale, the A Lydian dom you suggested sounds good, D# G A C# works well.
yeah, it's simply a very consant scale over a dom chord. Works great when a V is by itself, or seems out of place. In a 2-5, just stick to the major scale, since it's simpler, but at least on the 5, there's always tons you can do. Like I said, later for that.
Apologies Knotty. For some reason I missed your previous post. I only do the Hanons single handed. I’m not very good at LH Hanons. Did you do them double handed ?
As you’ve suggested, I should be increasing beyond 120bpm by now, firstly because I’m on Lesson 16 and secondly because I started at the end of March at 92bpm. Although I reached 120bpm by Lesson 8, I haven’t increased my Hanon speed for 2 main reasons:
1. I’m learning the tunes quite quickly and always want to move onto the next lesson.
2. I usually find Ab maj and E maj the most difficult. They become almost impossible for my left hand.
Sunday I plan to nail 120 bpm and I promise to go onto 124 bpm on Monday !
Cus, that sounds great. Be sure to keep an even feel on the triplets, that's the tricky part. Bump it up a little bit at a time whenever you feel comfortable. The point of this is to get speed and develop technique. It sounded great, your swing is very good. RH only is fine, it really is the most important. Someone who has a lot of time might do them both handed, or separate, so you could play RH at one challenge tempo and LH at another. I would try to spend time each day on those. I usually do it first thing in the morning, to get it out of the way. If you can spend 10 minutes on it, that's good. If you have more practice time, then do it twice a day. Also, you don't have to move through the hanons at the same pace as the tunes. It's all up to you, they get harder.
Hi Knotty Thanks very much for confirming I’m on the right track. When you said to keep an even feel on triplets, do you mean that none of the notes within the triplet should be accented at all when a triplet is amongst 8th notes ?
I mean they should be played evenly spaced. It's typical to speed them up. As things get faster, it's common to rush a bit. With triplets particularly. Simply keeping in mind to keep them even will help you.
OK I’ll be attentive to my spacing when I play a triplet. So: a) Only the 8th note should swing whereas the triplet should not swing ? b) You’re fine with me accenting the first note of the triplet ?
Hi Knotty Three weeks ago I recorded Hanons for you from Lesson 16 @ 120 bpm. Here is Lesson 17 @ 132 bpm. I chose Ab maj and E maj to record as these are the most difficult keys for me. What do you think of my attempt ? Sorry about the shockingly loud 1st note on the E maj one; I’m still learning how to consistently control my Zoom Q3 recorder.
Hey ! You are a hard taskmaster but thanks a lot for keeping an eye on my progress. So you like my triplets now ? I’ve tried to keep them even, especially for the descending triplets which I’ve tended to rush.
I can’t wait to start Lesson 18 tomorrow.
My piano is a Yamaha upright, I’ve opened the lid to create a more grand piano sound. It is an Eterna piano, my piano tuner thinks that my particular Eterna sounds even better than the Yamahas made in Japan. He said mine was most likely made in Indonesia in 1995 the same serial number corresponds to year 1971 in Yamaha pianos. It is now over 6 months since he’s tuned it and it’s retained its tuning despite the great weather fluctuations here.
I’ve decided not to get a grand piano. Even with a muffler it will still be too loud for my two very quiet neighbours. If my neighbours were noisy, I would definitely get a grand over 160cm.
How is your piano search going ?
I use the Zoom Q3 that came out earlier in the year. Its audio is much better than the video which I haven’t even tried. In the US one of the retailers already has the new Zoom Q3 HD out. I think the video for this HD version is better but still not awesome.
Playing with bands twice a week. I will soon know all jazz musicians in the DC area . Recording studio owner coming out to tape us on Monday. Lots happening.
hello. Im back at the JOI joint. I want to work on my second composition now. The one from Lullaby of the leaves. my one issue though is that i cant write music. it just takes me hours to write it down and i don't want this to hold me back from composing. what do you guys suggest i do?
Welcome back Simon. I had a lot of fun doing the composition for Lesson 2 Lullaby of the Leaves, I wasn’t too cerebral back then lol. You did a great job with your composition for Lesson 1. I’m surprised that you remembered what to play without writing it down ? If you can’t read music, it’s fine to write down A C E G etc when you are composing. And continue to record for us to listen to, whether you can read music or not.
When you are rocking up to a gig, you might get sheets put in front of you of songs you are not familiar with – in that case it will be helpful for you to sight-read the right hand. I’m thinking that you could spend 10 min a day with some fun software which will teach and test your RH reading.
thanks custard that's some good encouragement i will try notate it with some software. this will make the writing much easier. Its good to be back. Wish I didnt take such a long break
If you really don't want to write, you can just record yourself every time you find something you like. This will probably also take a while, but that's the idea of the composition, take time to find the perfect line, then listen, change it, listen, change it until you're really happy with it.
That said, I have found that the best way to learn how to read music is to write it. so spending a bit of time on it might pay off. But like many, I had lessons as a little kid so I already had the baggage. The difficult part about reading music btw, isn't ABCD, but the rhythms. At least to me. They can be tricky to write. When you write arrangements, voices are very hard to write, I just gave up on tricky rhythms and voices myself... Most people write them wrong anyway.
Hey Saiman As Knotty said: 1. Don’t make it a pain. You have to enjoy the process. So don’t worry about the software. 2. Change is the luxury that composition offers. You would not believe how many times I’ve changed my A section for Lesson 6 All of Me.
hehe Knots, I TOLD you that you were a hard taskmaster ! I’m up to Section C for Never Let Me Go. As soon as I have it ready, I will post for your comment. I think I’m spread out kinda thin but at least I have a lot of variety. I’m trying to get my rhythm for A Time for Love right. I’ve finished Lesson 6 All of Me composition but am still not happy with Section A, that’s why I haven’t posted it yet. I’ve finished Lesson 18 for dim chords, blues tune, jazz tune but am still only on 120bpm for Hanons. For tunes, should I go onto Lesson 19 or keep on revising the old tunes ?
I think I forgot to ask - how did your gig on Thurs night go ?
>> I’m up to Section C for Never Let Me Go. As soon as I have it ready, I will post for your comment. That's neat. It's pretty difficult, isn't it? I just finished one for Everything I love. Maybe I should share..
>> should I go onto Lesson 19 or keep on revising the old tunes ? dont feel like you have to know all the tunes from the book by heart. But it's good to sing them when you can. Maybe in the car or away from the piano. You really wo'nt have time to play them all. So I would move on.
For the hanons, I'm hoping you can get to 160+. Just a little bit at a time.
>> I think I forgot to ask - how did your gig on Thurs night go ? Really well, thanks. The guitarist canceled last minute. But who needs a guitarist? We had fun, good food, good wine. A trip to DC once in a while is always nice. Good time. I have videos but it has kids dancing in the foreground, so I don't think I should post to the public. Anyway, it's the same as usual, but with a lot of background chatter
>> I just listened to Someday My Prince Will Come and really enjoyed it. It sounded real fun to do. When is the album coming out ?! Those from my signature? It's the Friday band. That's from last week's. Recorded with a zoom. Quality is ok, you can even hear the piano. The other recording still isn't mixed.
oh but I have something else ... something special. I'll post that in the piano bar.
Yeah Knotty, Never Let Me Go is a difficult one – I use Dinah Washington’s rhythm and Bill Evans’ changes. Dinah’s changes didn’t seem jazzy enough (there were not enough ii V Is) and Bill’s rhythm was too difficult for me.
Re Hanons, thanks for the 160 goal. The Hanon in Lesson 18 has been the hardest for me, I’m kind of struggling at 120. I’d like to commit to you that I can master 160 by Easter next year.
Re Lesson 19, I think the chord progressions will be perfect timing for my goal to begin improvising in the New Year. I look forward to starting Lesson 19 tunes today.
Thanks for posting the awesome vid on the piano forum, it was a real treat, you must have some terrific gigs in your household !
Very nice intro Knotty, thanks for recording. I especially like the movement in your left hand, the change in dynamics throughout, and the RH use of the lower and middle registers.
Re outros, do you have any rules that you follow ? Like when I want to finish after the 1st chorus ?
To answer your question on being intimidated to improvise. You shouldn't. It's going to be much easier than you think, and you won't have to worry about any theory, other than very basic.
Knotty I’m changing my mindset and kind of looking forward to starting improv. Per your advice, I’m going to start off slow. Maybe 76 bpm. I can do swung eighths really well starting on downbeats. At the moment I’m trying to train myself to internalise starting phrases on upbeats.
We're going to improvise over a simple sequence, which is 1 measure of D-7 1 measure of G7 2 measures of Cmaj7
if possible, write a line or 2 over this simple 4 measure progression. Set your met to 72bpm.
Play your composed line, then improvise one. Then stop. Take a quick break. And do this again. When you feel good about this, you can go straight to improv. Re-playing your line will help you improvise better.
Then start improvising twice over that sequence.
Use only swing 8th, and rests. A triplet or 2 is ok, but mostly stick to 8th.
Take a break each time.
Transpose this exercise into the following 6 keys C - F - G - Bb - Eb - Ab
Spend 5 mins per key, per day, if you can.
I don't know if you've noticed, but JOI always has a lot of various exercises for you to do each day. So you should still be arranging tunes, playing the joi tunes, singing with solos and your hanons. Since that's a lot, you can take a break from the composition and consider the short phrases to be compositions.
If you have let's say 1 hour per day, I'd spend 30 mins on this improv exercise, and a good 10 on hanons (we want to get that speed). Spend the rest on composition. Hopefully you can sing with solos away from the piano.
We're going to spend some time on these 6 keys, then the next 6. After that, we'll do it again but in minor progressions. Then we'll pick other simple progressions. And finally we'll blow on tunes. By that time, you will have all the tools you need.
Here are a couple of concepts you can play with. When you choose one concept, do it intentionally, and work on only one concept at a time. You don't have to do all concepts in all keys, but try to experiment with all.
1. Play ascending lines. 2. descending lines 3. combination of 1 and 2. 4. play short lines (less than 2 measures) 5. long lines (more than 2, and up to 8) 6. short and long rests 7. some chromatic notes 8. Try some call and response 9. Try some imitation. Repeat yourself, repeat a rhythm, or move a pattern up and down.
As far as what notes to play, you be the judge, but sticking to just C major is fine. For the LH, work out voicings, learn them well and stick to them. Play it light, whole notes on beat 1. Don't introduce rhythms yet. If you find your LH doesn't play perfectly on beat 1, spend a little time teaching the LH alone. You can use the progressions from book 2 as examples of voicings.
If you play 1 hour a day, I'd say to do this for 2 weeks. If you spend more time on JOI, we can move on slightly faster, but a week seems like a good minimum to digest all this.
Knots, thank you for this clear outline. I will start today. I'm only confused about one thing. When you said "you can take a break from the composition and consider the short phrases to be compositions" do you mean to make Lesson 6 All of Me my last composition ? because in the next paragraph, you said "Spend the rest on composition" ?
sorry I meant to spend the rest on arrangements. Depends how much time you got. You can continue composition, but you can also consider than composing a short line on the progression is a composition.
I get it Knotty, that’s a great practice program. I will record Lesson 6 composition for you today for your comment and then after Christmas will concentrate on short lines over the progression.
Saiman, Look into Digital Performer. It "hears" everything and spits out notation. I can transcribe slash chord charts, but I'm like you. When I compose, my fingers & ear become the notes. I repeat what I like a few times, remember the chords and eventually get around to notating it... or my SO does-- LOL he's great at it!
There's a lot of good stuff in there. - you're not afraid to stretch the line long this time. The more you do that, the better it gets. - You use a lot of chromatic approaches that worked well - you often land chord tones on 1 and 3, which obviously works well. - at the same time, you're not afraid to play with extension. - You have a really good amount of arpeggios.
This is a great composition. It's not easy to play, but if you lay out a rhythm section in the back and sing along to it much faster, you might find that it sounds real good. The reason it's not easy to play is because it's not easy to hear. The use of 9th, 13th and the like make it more difficult to hear again the changes.
Hi Knotty Your kind words and constructive feedback are much appreciated. I knew you wanted me to do a long 4 measure phrase so I took literally ages to do the A section. B section came to me real naturally as it was short phrases, and C section came to me fairly naturally as well.
I’ve been working real hard on not sounding linear. I've been listening to a lot of Benny Carter who plays nice intervals, and I've been studying Dave's intervals.
Ever since you told me to use repetition, I find that my compositions have sounded more coherent almost like a mini story. The challenge for me when I start improv is to remember what I’ve just played.
I’m thinking of getting an Apple laptop, hopefully then I can use a rhythm section in the back.
I’m interested in your comment that this one wasn’t easy to play. Is that because of Dave’s nice complex altered voicings or is it from my composed melody ? Because I did soooooo many takes that I have wrecked up the on/off switch of my new Zoom so the switch is now permanently depressed.
To me at least, solos that stick to chord tones are much easier to hear, and therefore to play.
When the solo goes out and uses either larger intervals, or lands on extensions, it's less easy to hear, and less easy to play.
But then one of the goals of the composition is to stretch your limit. This stuff probably wouldn't come naturally yet, even if you played slow. But parts of it will. The same if you sing and start playing masters solos. You will not copy, but imitate. You will start understanding better how repetition and extensions, for example, work.
Anyway, why do you need an Apple laptop to get a rhythm section? If you want a particular track, let me know.
Hi Knotty At the moment I have a desktop in my study. I’m not good at transcribing but want to get better. Maybe it will help me to have a laptop right by my piano.
In the improv program you gave me, you wanted me to start tunes in a couple of months. I thought that Apple iLife comes with Garage Band.
Even if I do get the Apple laptop, I will ask you for the backing track for the tune I will be working on. I’m sure the rhythm backing I receive from you will be far superior to the one I create from mucking around with Garage Band. Thanks for your offer !
And I'll tell you what else, I'm starting to be careful with BiaB. Use it wisely because I think in many cases, it makes you lazy to swing. I mean don't rely on the rhythm section too much. Take a lot of time to play solo and develop your own sense of time against the good old metronome.
Very interesting. So are you saying that reliance on a rhythm section hinders you from developing your own time feel ? Btw are software drum beats generated to the exactness of a metronome ?
>> Very interesting. So are you saying that reliance on a rhythm section hinders you from developing your own time feel ? I think it's good to practice both. But yes, you want to develop your own sense of time. A metronome is a great drummer.
>> Btw are software drum beats generated to the exactness of a metronome ? They should be. Sometimes though, some software will have issues playing back, and they may delay. If you use Garage Band or Logic, it will tell you and stop playing. I had a software metronome that just could not keep time.
The track I gave you, different story, they're real people. They speed up or slow down sometimes. Some tracks more than others. But again, so does Herbie Hancock with Tony Williams, so that's ok.
>> Btw are software drum beats generated to the exactness of a metronome ? They should be. Sometimes though, some software will have issues playing back, and they may delay. If you use Garage Band or Logic, it will tell you and stop playing. I had a software metronome that just could not keep time.
when you play mp3 or other audio, you'll never have any issue because there's always a separate processor for that on it's own clock. It will never lose time, even if everything else fails.
When you play from other software, such as midi, or audio where there's real time processing (like in Logic or, to a lesser extent, garabe band), your laptop may not always be able to do what it needs to do in time to render and play it. In that case, it will just stop and tell you " reconfigure me, I'm not fast enough).
Anyway, you shouldn't have to worry about that. I've never had an issue with BandInABox. I don't know about the iphone app.
Hi Knotty I’m happy that I can now record again so that at least you can see that I’ve been trying ! One month ago I recorded for you Lesson 17 Hanons at 132 bpm, now here is Lesson 18 Hanons at 138 bpm. I've recorded 2 takes for you, I don’t think either is perfect but I’m interested in your comments.
You played these real well. The key to these is to be able to relax. I have a feeling you start tensing up and as you progress, the relaxed swing feels starts slipping. This is close to a challenge tempo for you, but I bet you can move it up a notch or 2 still. 120 is probably a good comfy tempo. So start there, and slowly move to 126, then 132, 138, 144. Then back down slowly to 120.
>> how do I stay relaxed ? I really wouldn't know. I would say focus on staying super relaxed while playing slow, and that will help you when playing fast. You could ask that question on the regular piano forum.
>> Should I go onto Lesson 19 Hanons or still improve on Lesson 18 ? It's up to you, you can move on if you'd like. They're only gonna get harder.
that's cool on the jazz thread. Also ask on the regular forum. Catch some kind of classical freak who knows a lot about that stuff. They might provide valuable information that an amateur may not.
I am now lowering my wrist so it's parallel to the keys. This is just one of my changes in technique over the past few days and has been very helpful in achieving the fast tempos consistently.
That's it! That was a really long line. In this particular case, I'd prefer a shorter line, but for the purpose of the exercise, super long lines will force you to stretch. So it's good. Experiment with shorter ones also. Feeling in blocks of 4 notes will help you conceive longer lines. Think of the next 4 notes before you play them. This is a great sample. What you'd want to do is take a 10 second break and then do it again.
Do this for a few minutes, then switch keys. Are you doing this in all 6 keys ?
Tomorrow I'll try to tape a quick sample to give you an idea of the feel in 4.
Btw, did you know the zoom could record straight to mp3?
I checked out that thread. A video would be helpful! But I'm glad it's helping you.
btw, the original hanons are 16th notes, so when people say 108 (which I believe is the target tempo in the original book), they mean 216 if you played 8ths.
That's it! That was a really long line. In this particular case, I'd prefer a shorter line, but for the purpose of the exercise, super long lines will force you to stretch. So it's good. Experiment with shorter ones also. Feeling in blocks of 4 notes will help you conceive longer lines. Think of the next 4 notes before you play them. This is a great sample. What you'd want to do is take a 10 second break and then do it again.
Do this for a few minutes, then switch keys. Are you doing this in all 6 keys ?
Tomorrow I'll try to tape a quick sample to give you an idea of the feel in 4.
Btw, did you know the zoom could record straight to mp3?
Hi Knotty Thanks for your encouragement. Did it sound like I was counting in 8s ? It sounded like that to me. I'm only up to C for long lines. But for all the preceding exercises you gave me (ascending, descending, asc & desc, short lines) I did them in the 6 keys. Tomorrow I will work on F but make the long line a bit shorter.
btw, the original hanons are 16th notes, so when people say 108 (which I believe is the target tempo in the original book), they mean 216 if you played 8ths.
In my old Hanon book from 1940 (I got it from my grandmother) it says start at 72 and work your way up until 120!
>> In my old Hanon book from 1940 (I got it from my grandmother) it says start at 72 and work your way up until 120!
I think mine is 64 to 108 or so. Either way, that gets pretty fast. Also, it tells you to lift your fingers really high, but I don't think any teacher would suggest that approach today.
>> How do I get the zoom recording straight to mp3 ? Mine (H4) has an MP3 button right on the front. Depending on your model, I'm not sure, but it should be possible.
If you did the exercise in 6 keys, then why not move to the remaining 6 and stay there for a couple weeks.
>> Also, it tells you to lift your fingers really high, but I don't think any teacher would suggest that approach today.
Actually, my instructor insists on high finger lifts, and to play staccato so that there is a very quick finger stab/stick, then a high lift. (Also, after several cycles of that, to play legato a few times as a cood down).
Hey guys, I just started back up with my JOI. and the first 2 songs the autumn leaves variation, etc.
just curious, as i go through these, what am i trying to take from them, other than just learning how to play them?
they are cool lines, using cool jazz chords, but what contextually should i be thinking about to take with me into my playing other songs, from these JOI tunes?
>> How do I get the zoom recording straight to mp3 ? Mine (H4) has an MP3 button right on the front. Depending on your model, I'm not sure, but it should be possible.
I don't think I've got this MP3 button on my Zoom Q3. Often my Zoom seems "shocked" at the first chord/note, so I play some chords at the beginning for the purpose of deleting in Audacity. I then normalise in Audacity. My Audacity version exports to WMA format and I can't get it to export as MP3. Apologies for my WMA files taking a while to download.
Hey Charlie Thanks for your question. I am sure Knotty can answer you in more detail. What types of songs are you wanting to apply JOI tunes to ? Will you be composing/improvising blues and/or jazz ?
It's great you want to study JOI. It's been very rewarding for me and I believe JOI can be learnt in 2 ways.
1. Osmosis: Just by singing Dave's tunes with LH chords and then without the chords, his melodic lines will infiltrate into your way of thinking. And make sure you are singing along to the masters everyday for 15 min.
2. Deliberate study: For example, look at how Dave uses direct and indirect imitation, how he uses intervals, how he uses approach notes.
thank you for the response. i will be using it for standards, such as performing songs like: Autumn Leaves, Out of Nowhere, All the things you are, Stella, Green Dolphin Street, etc.
i was just curious about how to approach the book without personal lesson work with an instructor. so i would pretty much be working on it on my own, since i can't afford lessons at this point.
what do you mean by direct and indirect imitation?
Yeah Charlie, I agree that it's best to have a great jazz teacher to work through the book with you. But in the absence of this teacher, post your questions and recordings on this thread and we will try to help.
An example of direct imitation in Lesson 1 can be found in Leaf Line C section. See how the Fmin7 measure is exactly 1 tone lower than the preceding Gmin6 section AND is exactly the same rhythm ?
An example of indirect imitation can be found in the A section. See how the 2nd phrase which begins on the Bb maj measure, mostly copies the 1st phrase in terms of idea ?
Imitation is part of what makes a song appealing and cohesive.
For a masterclass example of Bill Evans' awesome use of imitation, I recommend Dave Frank's Bill Evans you-tube series which analyses A Time for Love. Watch the whole thing but if you are short of time, concentrate on Part 6 General Arrangement Concepts.
Hello This is my first harmonisation ever ! I've chosen the beautiful ballad Never Let Me Go and will post my sheet in a couple of days as my scanner is not working.
I can't remember why we picked that tune now, but that's a very tune.
You've really played in a particular style, almost baroque, and that's quite pleasant. I like how you have those LH lines and then resolve to 1/2 notes.
Now, I must say something critical or else I'm not getting paid. One thing you want to make sure of, is that the melody comes out. This is particularly true in the 1st few measures. I might suggest a couple things * if you keep the same arrangement, you can simply play the melody notes louder, and the embellishments softer. * Or, you can play out of tempo, and take a pause between the melody, and then the embellishment line. * if yo wanted to change up the arrangement, you might want to move the embellishments or the melody so they are in different range. You're then effectively playing 3 layers. You bass, tenor and alto, for example.
I hope you had fun with this, it really came out great. You can spend some time refining it, learning how to play it (because after all, this is your arrangement, so use it), or move on to another tune. Did we say 'When I fall in Love' ?
Now, I must say something critical or else I'm not getting paid.
[/quote] Thanks so much for taking the time out to help me and for your interesting comments. I thought that if I listened to your "Everything I love" arrangement and Dave's masterclass on Bill Evans enough times, then something might rub off onto me
I chose Never Let Me Go as you gave me a choice of 4 lush ballads and that one was the only one I knew.
I didn't realise my style was Baroque but before I started JOI, I was studying Bach's Well Tempered Clavier. Do you mean that I used single note countermelodies ?
So I will remember to distinguish between the countermelody and the main melody from now on.
As you said, arrangements are like creating sculptures. I went through 6 pencils and 2 erasers but I did enjoy creating the arrangement and I learnt a lot in the process.
I look forward to learning "When I fall in love". Which vocal and instrumental versions should I listen to for learning it ?
hi knotty and custard. I finally finished my second composition after a long break from the piano. This time I really want to stay focused. I called it sleepy leaf
I tried to do a recording yesterday but it didnt come out right so Im posting the pdf for now.
This is a great composition. I played it real quick before leaving for work. Here are a few thoughts. First off, you really got a good handle on those minor 2-5s. That's great. I particularly like bar 3-4-5. Very nice sounds with wide intervals followed by small ones. That's basically the spirit.
It's also good how you vary your entrances, mostly on 1&, but sometimes on 1 or 4&. Those are the most common entry points.
You have a good balance of note duration, whole, mostly 8th, some 1/4 and a few triplets. That ration seems pretty good to me.
Here are a couple of suggestions for your next one. - Db7. The line on Db7 didn't really work for me. You really went out there. Starting with C natural on beat 1 is uncommon. Because that's the major 7 over what should be a minor 7. Anytime you play a note a 1/2 step above a chord tone, especially on beat 1 or 3, you're essentially getting away from the chord. Simply changing to a Cb will do the trick. The rest rest up to beat 3 is also out, but ok. Then on beat 3, you play an Fb, which is the minor 3rd. A simple F would work better here. You can think of this Db7 as if it were a G7, and that might help you a bit. It will still sound tense if you lay a G7, but the basic chord tones will be the same. There are tons of ways to create tension, via scales, chord, extensions or neighboring tones for example. - Length. You can experiment with longer lines. This will force you to think for longer than a chord or 2. The challenge being to connect the chords. Long lines a generally 3 bars or longer, but they can stretch to 8 bars or even more. Just now I am transcribing Bloomdido, which is a Charlie Parker Blues, and his second chorus is one single line of 8th notes. 12 measures. - Range. You basically kept it to an octave range. That's great if you're a singer, but as pianists, we have room. Especially with those arpeggios, you can easily stretch a few octaves. You can use range a way to create tension also.
what was long about creating the sheet? Is it the interface that's hard to use, or that you're not so great with reading music. If it's the former, it's gotten better for me over the years. It's not so bad anymore. If it's a lot, I connect to the midi controller and then it's much faster. If it's the latter, then good, you'll learn a lot from it.
Very nice job! Do learn how to play it, memorize it, possibly sing it. This is your music, you want to know it!
thank you so much knotty. this is such useful advice. Do you think i can move on to the next composition.
Well it basically took me long to compose since I am not really hearing good lines as yet. Oftentimes I only had a couple minutes in a day and then when you go back to the composition after quite some time you are not feeling the previous line anymore.
Then I also took quite some time to get used to the interface of the program.
It's normal that the composition takes a long time. It's a good thing. One thing I do, I sometimes just let the recording device run while I noodle with some lines. Sometimes, something good comes out. I then go back and save just that portion. I usually only write on paper once the whole thing is composed.
Go ahead and move on to the next. They will get more and more challenging. Harmonically, you will see odd chord changes, and that's what's challenging.
But this is really really good for your ear. You're really taking the time to listen and understand how the chord moves.
Hi Simon I've just played your composition too and like Knotty, I think it's great. As usual, Knotty's advice is brilliant, I have nothing more to add.
For A section, it sounded cool when you ended the first phrase on E which is the 6th of G7.
I agree with Knotty that the progressions become increasingly challenging. Using repetition might help you. For example, the 1st phrase of your B section sounded nice and bluesey. When you come to the C section, you can alter this phrase slightly either melodically or rhythmically or both.
Finally, I wish to encourage you to persevere with JOI. It's worth the effort. Development-wise for your 2nd composition, you are up to where I was with my 5th composition. Well done !
Hi everyone!! I have to admit that I have been lurking for quite some time. I've had Dave's JOI Book One on my shelf for about a year now wanting to delve into it. I've now had about a year and a half of lessons and think I might give it a shot! The negative in this whole situation is that due to financial reasons, I am unable to continue my lessons. I have not seen much in the forum regarding fingerings for the lessons in the JOI series and know Dave mentions in the book how important proper fingering is.
Having said all that, do you folks use any hard/fast rules or do you figure out a fingering that is comfortable for your hand? I'm well aware of all of the scale fingerings, etc. Just don't want to develop bad habits..
Welcome back Ron I spend time on my fingerings for Dave's tunes to make sure I am using all my fingers. Lots of people twist their wrists awkwardly because they tend to use fingers 1, 2 and 3 most of the time - these are our strongest fingers and therefore we are most comfortable with these fingers. However you should also ensure you use fingers 4 and 5.
I've noticed since doing Dave's Hanons that my 4th finger has become a lot stronger.
welcome to the gang. This method is dynamite. But you kinda have to stick to it for a while. Take a look at the earlier posts along this thread. If some doesn't make sense, go ahead and ask. The Joi foundation book can easily keep you busy an hour a day. As you start piling more challenges, you'll really get a lot to do.
Re improv, tomorrow I will finish the last key for descending lines. I've been doing as you suggested - composing a short line 1st, so that my improv comes out better and less random. The day after tomorrow I will begin your exercise - arps up, scales down etc.
I'm on Lesson 19 Hanons @ 144 bpm.
I'm on Lesson 21 tunes.
Tomorrow I will record the transcription of Bill Evan's A Time for Love.
Hello This is my recording of the transcription of Bill Evans' solo A Time for Love, a beautiful ballad written by Webster and Mandel. I would really appreciate help on how to do an outro. I wanted to end after the 1st chorus so I just played some chords. Thanks.
>>>This is my recording of the transcription of Bill Evans' solo A Time for Love, a beautiful ballad written by Webster and Mandel.
Wow, this is really well played! It's very impressive. It's great that you have the technique to execute that kind of arrangement. And now I see where you took some of the ideas for 'Never let me go'.
Hi Knotty Thanks so much for your kind comments. I wanted to do a bit of justice to such a great piece so I spent 15 min a day on it for nearly 3 months. Yes, you are right, the LH ideas for my Never Let Me Go arrangement were inspired by Bill especially the Baroque-like countermelody, upwards movement, downwards movement, and wave movement.
Thanks for the cool idea of playing along to the original, I will try this today and let you know how I go. So you recommend I go more rubato. Like you, I try and get it right with the metronome initially. But I should try and get away from it subsequently ?
I'm good at reading up to 3 accidentals. So luckily this piece was in D major. But once I get to E major and Ab major, things suddenly deteriorate quickly !
>> Like you, I try and get it right with the metronome initially. But I should try and get away from it subsequently ?
I think that's a good approach. It's really hard, at least for me, to learn anything without a metronome. The metronome ensures you're playing slow so you can pick up the speed later.
But now that you have this really cool arrangement under your fingers, which seem very true to the original, then why not try and push it farther, and copy the rest of what Bill does. It's a different exercise I guess.
>> I'm good at reading up to 3 accidentals. So luckily this piece was in D major. But once I get to E major and Ab major, things suddenly deteriorate quickly ! I know what you mean. I'm trying to improve my reading a bit, and I'm not really sure what the best approach is. Sight reading isn't really the goal, the goal, for me, would be to play a jazz transcription in as little time as required.
In any event, you're very disciplined and that's a great thing. Doesn't it feel good when you can play something like that? Keep playing it once in a while, it will only get better.
>> But now that you have this really cool arrangement under your fingers, which seem very true to the original, then why not try and push it farther, and copy the rest of what Bill does. It's a different exercise I guess.
>> Doesn't it feel good when you can play something like that? Keep playing it once in a while, it will only get better.
Do you mean I should learn more choruses of A Time for Love ? Or should I move onto another song of Bill's ?
Yeah it does feel good, as Dave said in his masterclass this song is the holy grail of solo piano.
I heard that Pres was chosen to replace Coleman Hawkins when Coleman suddenly had to pull out, because the 2 other tenor sax guys in contention couldn't read.
Apparently Pres' dad didn't want him just muckin' around imitating, he forced Pres to learn how to read.
I don't know if we're going to record Minuet 3. The next recital in in June. Who knows where we'll be by then... But #3 might be it. We have some Handel next also. Are you familiar with Suzuki ?
>> I've just made my first ever submission on the recital thread ! I hope it worked. Congrats. You'll have the best one there. Or else they don't know what they're talking about Since that post of yours, I've decided to get better at reading. That and I got a Bud powell book, and it would really help! So I'm gonna spend a few months practicing 15 minutes a day.
>> Suzuki Yeah, that's it. The teacher plays, the student plays back. It's really a surprising method. We had a sub teacher once, and he wanted to teach my son a new piece. He played, and my son played right back at him. I could tell he was a bit surprised and said: "He learns everything like this?"
The drawback is that kids tend to resist reading, and the more you delay, the more they tend to resist it. This can be bad for joining school bands, quartets, or whatever. So we're doing some sight reading also. I'm getting better at the bass clef
And thanks for your comment on my Youtube channel. Enjoy Perhaps, it's a great tune and one of the easiest of Bird's solo. Billie's Bounce is among the easier ones, too. Let me know if you can't find the original.
Knots In a past post, I think you suggested that I should always be learning a Bill Evans song, besides doing my own arrangements. Is there a particular Bill Evans song which you recommend I should try next ?
Bill: Re: Person I Knew, Very Early or Peri's Scope.
I think 10y old is too old for suzuki, but 4 seems like the perfect age. Check with a Suzuki certified teacher. Also, I have never seen suzuki on piano, so I don't know.
Thanks, I've now listened to a few versions on you-tube. Your Re: Person I Knew and Peri's Scope were great and I liked how you knew the progressions so well that you didn't need the sheet. I've chosen Very Early because it will challenge me to swing in 3/4. But the swing does not come from 8ths, so how do you create it ?
Suzuki sounds excellent for the 4 year old. His parents are not at all musical and have no idea whether to start him on classical or jazz. So Suzuki may offer him the best of both worlds - control of the piano from classical techniques (hopefully), and ear training for jazz. Thanks for reminding me of the Suzuki method, I've posted a question in the Piano Teachers forum.
My personal opinion. If the parents are not musical, coaching a 4 year old through music is hard work. Really hard work. And once a child gives up music, then most likely never go back to it. So it's a tough decision. Note that Suzuki is also a method that is often adapted for the western world, because it can be pretty intense. The idea being that the child is prevented from playing the instrument and it will create a crave. The best option for your parent friends, is to learn the same instrument, at the same time, and find a time for them to play together. The worst is for the parent to say "Go practice", then sit and watch tv.
Maybe I should post that in your other thread, if I can find it...
Very Early is a tune that Bill wrote as a teenager. The idea was to push the harmonic possibilities. That tune is really screwed up, but somehow, it sounds awesome. Like Suzuki, do a lot of listening of the original.
Hi Knotty I forgot to ask you whether you ever did a recording for Very Early. Yes the song kinda has a crazy sound with all those modulations.
I didn't realise Suzuki was such an intense methodology. Now I'm thinking it's not for the 4 year old boy who would much rather play/surf, plus his parents show no interest in taking up an instrument.
The 10 year old girl is undisciplined and also has non-musical parents.
I've found joi in my life, and now found this, which seems to be the appropriate thread.
I recognise some regulars here from the AL thread, but I'll introduce myself anyway. I had about 10 years of piano lessons as a kid - classical, but with a bit of keyboard harmony. Then didn't play at all for many years. Came back to piano (while learning guitar) about two years ago, and have been dabbling with a couple of things, without any teacher, any clear direction or commitment or ability to practice. But still feel I'm making progress and I'm happy with this.
In joi I've started work on the first lesson which I downloaded. Looking forward to doing some jazzing!
Cool that you're doing Joi. It's the best method around. Scan through the long thread, we discuss a few exercises. Not everything we do in Joi is actually in the book. Like the compositions, the arrangements, playing existing arrangements. So the thread is useful.
Hi 10 Welcome to this kool club. JOI is also a lot about attitude. You are certainly starting off right. You are throwing yourself into the singing and taking risks.
Hey Knots I've just listened to All Blues in your signature. I really liked your solo particularly with your behind the beat playing which was very appropriate for this laid back song. And your modulation sounded great too. You guys must have had a lot of fun jamming to this. When is your next gig ? At times I thought your drummer was a bit loud especially at the beginning, but maybe it was just the mic placement.
Thanks! It's tough getting the zoom to pick up a decent mix. The drummer is actually pretty quiet. It can get louder when he solos, but he's very attentive to what you play. He's really fun to play with.
I don't know when the next gig is... Gotta work on that.
The first is more an observation really. The Hanon is mostly a question of jumping that 3rd. Moving step by step is easy but the third can catch me out, depending on the key. I can descend fine (ascending 3rd) but the descending 3rd (while ascending) can be tricky. Are we supposed to work out a good fingering for this (=writing it out in all keys), or just do the fingering on the fly? I find myself doing weird fingerings, not necessarily bad, but probably not totally ergonomic because I am thinking on my feet. Or my fingers.
Now for the solo pattern which I'm supposed to play in all the 12 keys hanging off of my chain. Did you write this out or transpose mentally? I'm minded to write it out as I have fancy software which will help with transposing. And wouldn't it be easier to give it a key signature? It's fine as it is, but I can just imagine it full of double sharps and flats, and it is going to be a nightmare. How did others approach this, and is any guidance given in the book? (Mine is on order).
with regards to the Hanon you are not meant to work out a fingerings like with scales but you shift the hand in the same positon up or down. That means for example that your thumb or pinky often play two keys in a row.
Dave says that you dont need to do the solo pattern. I tried to do it at one stage and with the left hand chords it really takes FOREVER. The method works just as well without doing it.
with regards to the Hanon you are not meant to work out a fingerings like with scales but you shift the hand in the same positon up or down. That means for example that your thumb or pinky often play two keys in a row.
OK, I get that my thumb slides from Bb to B or A. I never need to do that with any other finger - because there are other options. I wouldn't normally go D to E with a single finger - should I try? Should I go B up to Bb with a thumb?
But I think the main thing is that I'm supposed to work it out while playing, which is the point with improvising, right?
Quote:
Dave says that you dont need to do the solo pattern. I tried to do it at one stage and with the left hand chords it really takes FOREVER. The method works just as well without doing it.
??? He says to do it, then not? So he doesn't follow this up in further lessons? OK, I've done major 2-5-1, but not minor ones, so this isn't desperately easy. I won't complain.
Fingering is very important, even in jazz. Maybe what you meant to say was that sometimes, it's awkward, which it is.
Here, you just gotta do 12345321 - 12345321 etc... And yes, that's hard.
Anytime you need to, playing anything, feel free to mark down fingering, especially if you're a good reader. For the tunes for example, if it ever seems hard, you can work out the fingers ahead of time.
I never did the solo patterns either. I'm guessing over the years, Dave found it too difficult for average students. It's all about how much time you got. I'd say if you got time for a key or 2, it can't hurt!
Fingering is very important, even in jazz. Maybe what you meant to say was that sometimes, it's awkward, which it is.
Here, you just gotta do 12345321 - 12345321 etc... And yes, that's hard.
OK, now I'm really confused. Do the fingering like that in every key? Even when I can easily do thumb-unders and finger-overs for a smooth legato? So I'm supposed to life my thumb between bars?
just to add a bit to my previous answer, I tried the 1st pattern in a few keys and I was able to transpose mostly on the spot. That said, I could use a little practice still.
2 issues come to mind when you do that. 1. how well you can sing the line. If you can sing it well, it's not that tough to play in any key 2. Voicings. How well do you know minor 2-5-1 in 12 keys. That depends on your level. Presumably, someone on lesson 1 would not know a minor 2-5-1 in Gb (I don't think I've ever come across this particular one in any tune), so it would take a while to do. Writing down the voicings would help then.
In the book, Dave says to write it down. With paper, it probably doesn't take that long. And I'm guessing writing them down will force you to think.
Knotty is right, the solo pattern proved to be alot of work, and is intended for players who feel the need to play in all keys, for example pianists who do alot of playing with singers, etc.. Some people have done it and enjoyed it, but it's not necessary.
The hanons use the same fingering for each degree, which is unusual compared with the finger under-over usual fingerings. The idea here is to get comfortable using your thumbs on the black keys, and to strengthen your hand(s) equally. In the case of hanon #1, you would lift the thumbs on the way up and move to the next degree, and do the same with the 5th finger on the way down.
Hey 10 Are you still up at midnight doing your Hanon ? It turns out that the fingering which Knotty found best for Hanon Lesson #1 ascending 12345321 - 12345321 also was the optimum one for me. For descending I used 54321345 54321345.
It's fine to pre-plan your fingering. Here with the Hanon you are not improvising, you are merely developing the technical skills to enable you to execute improv.
Legato. Which gets more difficult with subsequent Hanons.
Not at all, I'm up to midnight procrastinating. Actually I've been wrestling to get my software to transpose that solo line. Neater jobs have been done before. I can't play once the kids are in bed. Just molto pianissimo.
Meanwhile, you are sitting at the computer in the middle of a summer's day?
Not at all, I'm up to midnight procrastinating. Actually I've been wrestling to get my software to transpose that solo line. Neater jobs have been done before. I can't play once the kids are in bed. Just molto pianissimo.
Meanwhile, you are sitting at the computer in the middle of a summer's day?
haha surfing injury !
btw it's so awesome you have ordered your JOI books. To wait till May for your birthday would have been unbearable IMO As Knotty said, singing another Louis would be good before going onto Prez. I really liked Louis' I Gotta Right To Sing the Blues.
Thanks Dave for the clarification. The fingering turns it into a completely different exercise. In some ways much easier. But I've never asked my fingers to do that sideways jump, so that is a little new.
Hey, custard, it would need to be a surfing injury!
I hope it's ok if I interject a thought. Ten, you seem to have a pretty good musical background and you play very well. I just want to suggest that you reconsider entering the hanons in a note editor and printing out transpositions. Instead try and do it at the keyboard. This, IMO, will help train the brain (and the inner ear Dave talks about) and the hand. It will help you learn the scales. Dave (in the book) also encourages us to explore. For example, if the hanon is relatively easy for you by going up a scale degree at a time, then try it in fifths, or thirds or some other interval. There's lots of ways you can do these. tf
Hi 10 I'm thinking that sideways jump in the Hanons will help improvisers achieve increasing tempos.
Hey time I've been thinking about what you said. I had a go at the JOI Solo Pattern once and only did about 2 keys because it took me so long. But I learnt a lot through the process, especially in recognising interval distance. So I agree that if one transposes through a note editor, one will miss out on some good ear training.
Knotty It took me a long time to learn the Charlie Christian songs so I bought the Omnibook for the Charlie Parker songs. But I don't cheat, at least I don't think I'm cheating. I don't look at the notes in the Omnibook unless I'm really stuck and then I just glance at them. I'm still learning the Bird song from audio and not by looking. Is that OK ? Thanks for recommending the Bud book to me after Lesson 52.
Hi time! I didn't transpose the hanon in my software, I just do that like scales at the keyboard.
I did, however, cheat with the JOI solo line. (The trick with this was to start with it in two flats - my software went mad on the accidentals). I played the JOI line in a couple of keys, and I still need to think about the chords and voicings. But basically I don't think I could do this at sight, and, from the sound of it, the exercise is difficult enough that most here have skipped it.
Hi TLT. I've long wanted to join this thread, but it seems to be mostly about singing (I don't; my range is barely a fifth) and writing out melodies on paper ("notes on paper" is exactly what I'm trying to get away from). But I've been thinking about you putting the Solo Pattern in a note editor and transposing (glad to hear you're not doing that with the hanons) Would you be interested in doing the Solo Patterns with me (let's analyze them etc) and transpose them without a note editor? The first one is just a minor II-V-I and (as emphasized in the AL thread), the II starts on the 3rd of the chord. And the V starts on the 7th which emphasizes the dominant sound/function. And the melody ends on the 3rd of the I chord. It looks like there's a lot of good stuff to learn in these little patterns. I'm sure Dave had a good reason to put these JOI Solo Patterns in his book(s). I'm thinking the exercise really isn't about transposing per se but about learning how the music is put together - how it's structured. This should make transposing much easier. What do you think? tf
Just a couple of comments on what you wrote: >> It seems to be mostly about singing (I don't; my range is barely a fifth) The singing is about being sure that you hear what you think you hear. It isn't about range or beautiful singing. But if you range is really a fifth, I can see how you'd be at a disadvantage because there are essentially some notes you cannot sing. For example, maybe you cannot sing an A. no matter what.
>> and writing out melodies on paper ("notes on paper" is exactly what I'm trying to get away from). I think you're confusing 2 things in this statement. Reading sheet music and composing. There's nothing wrong with either, but the method is not about reading sheet music. Composing can be used as a way to expand your improvising potential. In other words, you improvise on slow motion. Arranging is something else altogether.
Another method for example is Sudnow. With that method, which I must say, I have not followed, I believe you follow recipes for playing any tune from a fakebook. It's great, but in my view, JOI is on a totally different level.
About transposing, I was at a recital some time ago. A girl was gonna sing a ballad, and the accompanist, whose a friend, starts with a nice intro, in a key that they had planned in advance. The girl was very nervous, and sure enough, despite the intro, started singing in a different key. The pianist had a smile, and just switched keys. It's one of those things you just have to practice for ...
Knotty, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I agree that composing melodies and writing them out can be very useful. But is this thread based on going through all 52 lessons before doing any improvisation? (Where's the Joy? ) To me it seems like each lesson, starting with lesson one can be used for actual improv. When I first saw this thread that's actually what I thought it was going to be. Singing and composing - fine, but why not also improvise on each lesson? You're right, I don't get it.
Re transposing: yes a very important skill, but I think it's one that's learned at the keyboard.
I also realize it's pretty dumb of me to be discussing this with you - you're taking lessons with the author!
I've enjoyed lurking here - I will leave you to it.
Hi Time I think I forgot to say welcome to this JOI thread. It's great that you're prepared to invest so much time on the technical exercises. I don't know if you're doing the JOI tunes but personally I've found that I learn the tunes quicker if I sing them. Dave's tunes cover a huge range, Dave uses very melodic arps, Billie Holiday would definitely have a lot of trouble singing the JOI tunes. If your range is 5 notes, I think it should be fine to sing a few notes in one octave and then jump to another octave for the other notes. This has been the hardest thing for me - when I can't reach a note, to transpose it by an octave, but it's also been very good training for me.
Hi Knotty What a cool story about your friend's comping and transposing skills.
Hey 10 You are funny as usual. Yes, it was a surfing injury.
Hi Time Apologies. I missed your last post. Improv to me is in-the-moment composition. I can now compose over major ii V I sequences very quickly and I think they sound cool. Even though I don't think my improvs sound cool, I couldn't have done any improv if I hadn't developed the compositional skills. Just my personal experience. I felt I had the confidence to start improv after 6 compositions.
"But is this thread based on going through all 52 lessons before doing any improvisation?"
Not at all, it is important that a teacher understands how this method works. The point is that most students lack the foundation to improvising with confidence. That is the technical skillset and the ability to hear melodic lines and understand how the Masters " speak". The method doesnt say you are not allow to improvise before you have completed 52 lessions. In fact after a certain number of compositions Dave will ask you to start improvising over simple progressions and build you up to more complex stuff.
It is a bit of a paradox that you ask where the Joy is... but on the other hand you are over eager to work out one solo pattern in all keys? I think the reason why Dave often advises to leave it out is that you can move quicker through the lessons and focus on the MUSIC
In my optionion composing and improvising are almost identical. The difference is that one takes more time and revision for the composition
Singing and composing - fine, but why not also improvise on each lesson? You're right, I don't get it.
Hey time I really like Saiman's clear answer. Knotty, Saiman and I have been improvising on each lesson. That is why we did compositions over the jazz tune for the early lessons. As Saiman said, composing is improvising.
Thank you all very much much for your interest, hard work and great questions. I'm enjoying getting to know you all..well, Knotty is a bit of a a pain but everyone else here seems like nice people. Hehe:)
The art of improvisation combines various aspects of skilled musicianship. There is the intellectual/theoretical aspect, the technical aspect, the rhythmic aspect, the ear aspect, and the ability to coordinate these aspects aspect. The JOI lessons have been very useful to develop the initial foundation. In actual practice, usually I have my victims go up through number 12 (not including the solo pattern unless one is highly interested in learning to play immediately in all keys). After completing lesson 12, (although we usually continue with the following lessons), we embark on a phase of composition for an equal period of time as the foundation (often 3-4 months). The compositional phase is great to allow folks to put into practice the technical and intuitive aspects of improv grasped during the foundation phase in a way that allows for thoughtful reflection.
In the complete schemata of the process, after a few months of composition, we new start the jazz improv stage, which begins improvising over the basic jazz chord progressions that you will encounter when you're at the next, final level which is improvising over the tunes. The great news is that improvising over tunes and otherwise is a natural human ability, after *having gone through* the first few steps.
The books cover the first level. At any time during your foundation practice you are encouraged to improvise and create anything that the foundation level inspires you to do.It's just that I've found that there is a certain sequential learning curve (foundation, composition, improv over progressions, improv over tunes)to this process, that when followed for a while, leads to success in %100 of the folks that try it.
There's only so much that can be taught using books, as the real pot at the end of the rainbow here is the discovery of the infinite flow of music within you, which I guarantee that you can all discover (and it is a treasure that you will enjoy endlessly). When my wife and I open our new jazz/yoga center in a few weeks, I'll have more freedom to record some master classes that will focus on the levels beyond the foundation. Some of the folks here have been through those levels and are capable of guiding you through them if you're interested. Any questions you have you can ask me and I'll be happy to help as well. Many of the online master classes address these higher levels as well..
>> well, Knotty is a bit of a a pain but everyone else here seems like nice people. Hehe:) don't you know, this forum is where you get to be a wise ass, and unlike real life, you don't get punched back?
Tf,
>>But is this thread based on going through all 52 lessons before doing any improvisation? (Where's the Joy? smile ) Who said anything about waiting 52 lessons? If that's what this thread is "based on", point the author to the post where he suggests this, so he or she can edit it.
>>I also realize it's pretty dumb of me to be discussing this with you - you're taking lessons with the author! cool. Yeah, can you believe it? now even the author's talking about it. What does he know?
Hey, sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way tf. Keep lurking, interact, whatever. If I think you're an idiot, you will know, because I will simply ignore your posts. Your questions are great, I felt I just needed to correct a few of your stated facts.
Time flies, I can't say I'm keen to transpose that line on site. I do have a few little pentatonic ditties that I play in all keys, to force myself to think by key, and it is good practice. But it is the work of months, not weeks. Knotty's story about the pianist transposing on the fly is wonderful, but I think it's a skill I can live without. Besides, that's what capos are for.
Having not read the book (just the online first lesson) I think I can authoritatively comment on the method. What attracts me is that, by all accounts, it is what a teacher would have me do. There are the voicings, the technical exercises, the progressions. There is also the focussed listening. Some would have me transcribe, I'm happy to scat sing or buzz. But every jazzer I have met has agreed this is an important part of the process. So for me, I've come across something that promises to progress me systematically in all these areas, working in parallel.
I generally noodle around and I plan to continue. Just because the book doesn't tell me to noodle, doesn't mean I'm going to stop. Just like, I play scales whether the book tells me to or not.
I have lots of material to help improvising - couple of Tim Richards books, some ABRSM jazz books. But this seems more like a method book. And much as I groan at method books, they have their uses. The idea being that if in January you can play page 10, then in February you would be able to progress to page 11. One criticism I have of the Tim Richards books is how quickly the skills level jumps. One minute, he's explaining a major triad. Two pages later, he gives you a grade 7 piece.
(I get guitar stuff like that too. Book full of really quite advanced stuff. Page 1: how to tune your guitar. Well duh!)
Back on topic. Anyway, I'm happy to give the JOI lessons a shot, taking them in the spirit provided by this thread.
So I have another contribution. Knotty said playing Struttin slower would be harder, so I gave it a go. Knotty, you're not wrong. I play it twice here, once at 100, once at 80. You'll hear I really struggle at 80.
>> So I have another contribution. Knotty said playing Struttin slower would be harder, so I gave it a go. Knotty, you're not wrong. I play it twice here, once at 100, once at 80. You'll hear I really struggle at 80.
I think you're doing this pretty well actually. You're playing with nothing to back you up but a metronome, and that's hard. Anytime you lower down the tempo, the subdivisions become farther away, and therefore, it's more difficult to get right. Kinda like going from a Cello to a Bass. It's hard finding those subdivisions. In this case, I think you just need to take a break before lowering to 80. I thought you were still kinda feeling the 100 beat, and so you rushed it a bit. Should be an easy fix.
When you play things slower, it's also more difficult because you're expected to play things better. If you sing a line at 200, who's gonna notice a B instead of a Bb. At 80, we'll hear it. You'll hear it. In other words, you don't want to cheat yourself. But that part, you really nailed.
Overall, I wouldn't sweat it too much, and I'd move on to the next tune. Do it slowly, but don't make it painful
I love the idea of the cornet mouthpiece, I have to say!
Let me say that I would like to try this approach. I have nothing to lose but time - oh wait!
What interested me about JOI was it's progressive approach, one that seems to make sense. To paraphrase Ten, the course does not start with string tuning and then jump to playing in Carnegie Hall with Wynton Marsalis.
Thank you Custard for the welcome.
If allowed to take part in the thread I will be the control group, the disadvantaged non-singing control group.
We all come to this with different backgrounds and skill levels. I want to spend some time on transposing the JOI solo patterns because playing in C is a crutch for me and I want to get beyond it. (Even though my DP has an e-capo).
My goal is to record and post often. For me it's a way of staying engaged - otherwise I'll just fade away into oblivion. No one has to listen.
I'm fairly new on the forum. When I first started posting on the AL thread it seemed to me everyone left. I've been on break from the thread for a couple of months and now people are coming back. It's a great thread. (And I hope you all don't head for the exits. )
>> I'm fairly new on the forum. When I first started posting on the AL thread it seemed to me everyone left People are so busy playing music sometimes, they forget it's all about posting in the forum what they think they know. oh wait...
Hi ten That is really admirable. Rhythm is always the hardest thing for me in learning the masters. You've really illustrated well just how hard it is to go slow. Sounds like you've really internalised Struttin' at the faster tempos. Do you think of Struttin' when you go to bed or wake up ?!
If allowed to take part in the thread I will be the control group, the disadvantaged non-singing control group.
Hang on, what do we do to get allowed to join the group? Did I miss something? Letter of recommendation of good character? Walk on hot coals? Sacrifice a goat?
If I am allowed to join the group I would like to travel the and promote world peace.
Just replying to a few more things. Thanks for the comments on Struttin'. I think knotty's right - time to move on. Yes I've had struttin coming out of my ears.
There's a funny story here. Last weekend I went on a trip and spent a good few hours with my mp3 player, so I had it all loaded up. Then I played and played and played with it until it finally deleted itself. Damn! So I came home and found I had no copy of struttin on my hard disk. Dammer! So then I went onto Amazon and got myself another copy, only this time, not the right one. At least, not the same recording. Damndest! So, when I was preparing for recording again, this time slow, the only recording I had to remind myself (there's a phrase I keep forgetting) was my first recording doing on the mouth piece. So I went back and listened, and I have to say, it's quite recognisable.
Time, I think recordings are a great way to go. Submitting gives yourself a deadline, it helps you stay motivated if you'r working without a teacher. I don't know any jazzer who thinks it's possible to learn jazz without the aural training, and that means singing. It doesn't need to be good (I mean good voice quality) and it doesn't need to be accurate in terms of pitch. It seems to be more about the phrasing and placing the phrase on the beats. I've actually been quite happy with the mouthpiece idea - which won't work for everyone, I know. But it did get me thinking. Kazoo. Really, I'm serious.
In fact, I'm so serious, I'll put up a prize for the first of our number to post a recording of a jazz solo, played on kazoo. Who's up for it?
Oh, knotty, I wept with laughter! The grace notes were priceless!
Here's your prize:
Can't wait for bird.
No, I really mean I can't wait. Almost midnight, and I need to sleep. Thanks for the lullaby and I'll - well - I'll need to get a kazoo when I next visit the kazoo-shop.
time, I think recordings are a great way to go. ...it helps you stay motivated.
Yes ten. If I don't record and upload I know I'll lose interest.
Quote:
(singing)seems to be more about the phrasing and placing the phrase on the beats.
The kazoo is a heck of an idea. I'll check it out. Loved your kazoo solo Knotty.
I've been working on JOI Solo Pattern #1 in a half dozen minor keys. Today though I never got past G minor. There's so much that can be done with it. I tried something different here. Sorry, it's not jazz. I notated it so you can follow along with the recording.
That sounded great. That line from the book is amazingly melodic, you really put a new spin to it. I thought it was really cool. Instead of the long whole notes, why not try to write your own lines? Similar to what Dave wrote. You could make it an exercise to transpose Dave's line in as many keys as you can eat, but in each key, write your own line in the middle, a different one each time.
I've been working on JOI Solo Pattern #1 in a half dozen minor keys. Today though I never got past G minor. There's so much that can be done with it. I tried something different here. Sorry, it's not jazz. I notated it so you can follow along with the recording.
Hi Knotty It's been about 7 weeks since I posted Lesson 18 Hanon @ 138 bpm, so I thought it's time for some feedback. Here I do Lesson 19 Hanon @ 144 bpm.
Lesson 19! What lesson is everyone else on? I'll be on #1 for some time. Cus, it sounds like it would be difficult to keep those triplets as even as you did. What fingering did you use?
Knotty and Time Thanks ! Yes those triplets ascending were really difficult to control.
Knotty I'm pleased that you said my Lesson 18 Hanon sounded tense coz it forced me to re-examine my technique. One of the biggest and most helpful changes I made was buying an adjustable piano chair. Before I was sitting too high, now with my adjustable one, I'm sitting on the lowest setting so that my wrist is parallel to the keys.
Should I move onto Lesson 20 Hanon ?
Time For Lesson 19 fingering I used: Ascending 345 432 3135 Descending 321 234 3531
Don't forget I started JOI at the end of March last year. I know that you have been exploring the LH melodic possibilities of the harmony in Lesson 1 in a very deep way.
This is what I have been doing for my improv practice in each key.
1. Famliarisation with the tonality per your exercise 1357 arps up, scales down 2357 arps up, scales down etc.
I have one more key to go.
Yes I've found a few of the keys quite unfamiliar.
2. Quick composition. This has been really easy for me and they have sounded cool. I like them.
3. Improv. I sound like a true beginner and my improvs don't sound like my compositions ! I have to admit that I don't really like my improvs at this stage.
Did you experience this gap between 2 and 3 when you started improv ?
>>I sound like a true beginner and my improvs don't sound like my compositions ! I have to admit that I don't really like my improvs at this stage. >> Did you experience this gap between 2 and 3 when you started improv ?
Hey Cus,
It's pretty normal that your improv don't sound like your compositions to you. They probably sound more like it than you want to admit. In other words, you and I will have different styles, and those differences will appear in both composition and improv. But basically, if you spend 10 minutes composing 2 measures, it's normal that it comes out better than when you simply improvise on the same 2 measures. And I think that's true at any level. Maybe you're experimenting with a new sound, new scales, whatever you can think of. If you sit and think, it will come out good, then applying it in real-time is a different beast.
It's also possible you're being too hard with yourself, and that in fact, you sound just fine.
It's possible you are trying to do too much.
It's possible there's one single thing that's limiting you. Maybe the LH is holding you back, or maybe something else.
Either way, it would be good to check every so often on the progress. The hanons have come a really long way since a few months back. Within about a year, you'll probably be able to improvise on just about any tune you decide to spend time on.
Hi everyone, So my book arrived today - hurray! First impression (not having read it all) is that the devil is very much in the detail. We are very much being told *how* to approach this material, and it's quite different from what I was doing - for example, playing the chord notes one by one, singing them, let it ring, say the chord name aloud, etc, etc. Singing hanons? Well, I hadn't thought of that one.
Hey custard, why weren't you singing?
There is absolutely no pretence that this is a quick journey.
But what really struck me is the attention to *attitude*, and especially the relationship with the inner critic. I honestly do believe that all these details are important, and that ignoring any of them would lead to not such great progress. It is helpful to have all these things spelled out in black and white.
yes, I'd move to 20. Unless you want to torture yourself some more
lolol Knotty, I will leave the painful type of self-torture to Time Flies. I moved onto 20 today, it's by far the most difficult of the Hanons. You get tortured but in a fun kind of way.
Hey 10 That is exciting news about your JOI book arriving today. You are right about attitude, I always tend to criticise myself and I should be training myself to stop doing it.
ha I was singing the Hanons at 108 bpm, but then I found it a bit difficult to hear whether my triplets were even at 112 bpm and above. I believe Knots sang/hummed even at 200 bpm.
Knotty Should I start singing the Hanons again ? Thanks for your encouragement about my progress. You are so right about me trying out a new sound for improv. Since I've started singing Bird, I've really liked his sound. And I also love Sonny Rollins' sound. Maybe I am trying to be something that I'm not.
Hey 10 That is exciting news about your JOI book arriving today. You are right about attitude, I always tend to criticise myself and I should be training myself to stop doing it.
Maybe we need a critic critic? I just went back and read Randy Halberstadt's section about the censor in the brain (Metaphors for the musician). And I just realised, and wanted to share here, that I have been doing some nice, musical noodling lately. Not improvising that anyone would pay to listen to, and not even consistent. I get one bit the way I wanted it to go, the next bit flops out of control. But actually, even the out of control is more recoverable than it used to be. Slightly.
But, just in the spirit of noticing what the critic is saying, today mine actually smiled a couple of times.
I'll get down to some JOI tomorrow. I don't have my own studio - piano is in the living room, so all this singing hanons is going to have to wait for some peace.
Here's my composition on Leaf Line, Part A. (Part B looks much more difficult). I spent much of the day on this. I started improvising, then finally recording, and saying "ugh - that's awful". So I just started on a measure (or even a piece of a measure) at a time until it started to sound good (well, better). (Less is more). At one point I had to put it in Transcribe and mark out the beats (I'm lousy at counting beats in my head while playing) to see what was going on. And notating it was a challenge.
Here's my composition on Leaf Line, Part A. (Part B looks much more difficult). I spent much of the day on this. I started improvising, then finally recording, and saying "ugh - that's awful". So I just started on a measure (or even a piece of a measure) at a time until it started to sound good (well, better). (Less is more). At one point I had to put it in Transcribe and mark out the beats (I'm lousy at counting beats in my head while playing) to see what was going on. And notating it was a challenge.
Hey Time This is awesome ! Great sense of swing in your RH enhanced by the syncopation of your LH. Nice even triplets. Nice complete melodic lines of varied length. I'm really looking forward to your Part B. You are really excavating Lesson 1. Congrats.
Here's my composition on Leaf Line, Part A. (Part B looks much more difficult). I spent much of the day on this. I started improvising, then finally recording, and saying "ugh - that's awful". So I just started on a measure (or even a piece of a measure) at a time until it started to sound good (well, better). (Less is more). At one point I had to put it in Transcribe and mark out the beats (I'm lousy at counting beats in my head while playing) to see what was going on. And notating it was a challenge.
1. Famliarisation with the tonality per your exercise 1357 arps up, scales down 2357 arps up, scales down etc.
Custard, can I ask more specifically what you do here? Is is just one octave? I used to do a similar exercise, but not quite the same, I just want to compare.
>> Should I start singing the Hanons again? you're supposed to. As it got faster, I stopped. I found it too exhausting. I don't remember singing that fast.
>> And I also love Sonny Rollins' sound. Maybe I am trying to be something that I'm not. It's always dangerous comparing yourself to others, I think.
1. Famliarisation with the tonality per your exercise 1357 arps up, scales down 2357 arps up, scales down etc.
Custard, can I ask more specifically what you do here? Is is just one octave? I used to do a similar exercise, but not quite the same, I just want to compare.
Hi 10 Here is what Knotty said when he gave me the Familiarisation with Tonality exercise.
"For your purpose, if you're working on digesting the sound of d-7 | G7 | C | C, then I would recommend simply thinking key of Cmaj, because that's the tonality, and the 1357 and 3579 arpeggios. You work on this until you're sick of it basically. Switch from one to the other, exhaust the possibilities. Scale up, followed by Arp down, then chromatic down, then scale down, then arp up, etc... you get the idea. There's very little theory involved, but you're digesting the most important sounds in this cadence."
I've recorded for you 2 versions of what I've done today on C# major 3579. Ideally your arpeggios will span more than just one octave.
I change directions for every chord change - is this what you had in mind, Knotty ?
I need to work on melodic variety (starting on different notes) and also rhythm (I tend to come in too late on the 4+ for my 2nd phrase).
>> Here's my 8 measure ii V I improv in Eb maj. >> http://www.box.net/shared/0r6uo1pqc0 Cus, I'm glad you posted this sample. A couple of things are going on here, I think. All of those things you can fix. * your tempo is really slow. Bump it up to 72 and it might feel a bit easier. 72 to 92 is kind of this sweet spot where it's slow enough that you can keep up, but fast enough that you can still feel the time. * Stick to simpler scales and scales and arpeggios. You start your line on Eb then F# on beat 2. The F# over F-7 is going to sound tense, especially at the time you play it. Fix it by playing an F or G. Over the 251 in Eb, you can simply play the Eb major scale. The most important thing is not fancy notes, but the next bullet. * You're placing your accents in the wrong place, and that's probably what's giving you the feeling you get. It's easy to fix, but it takes time to absorb. Play shorter lines, but in blocks of 4. For now, you can start your lines on beat 1, and count in your head 1234. One number per note played. Alternatively, say "Slice of Pizza". If you simply play arps 1 - 3 - 5 - 7, then it's kind of easy because it's a block of 4 already. I'm going to try and post a sample of the same 25 for you.
Your composition sounded great. I really like that long triplet line towards the end. It really worked. It's also cool that you used repetition. And you're doing cool stuff with the left hand, which it nice. This exercise will stretch your mind and force you to think and analyze tunes.
>> Custard, can I ask more specifically what you do here? Is is just one octave? I used to do a similar exercise, but not quite the same, I just want to compare.
Ten, in Metaphors, Randy describes an approach to learning tunes. This approach is quite similar to Joi. Note that Randy gives tons of great advice spread across chapters. Practice Arps 1 3 5 7 over and over until you can't take it anymore. This will help you hear the most important sounds. It's about ear training. Then practice 3 5 7 9 The scales are also very important. Randy recommends composing a sample solo, which is what Cus and Tf are doing here. That's time consuming, but really great. Randy also recommends writing a bass line, that's terrific too. and if you got the guts for it, sing the tenor and alto part, and 3rd and 7ths. Note, singing 3rd and 7th is gonna be rough. As in, really rough.
great advice for Amelia, Christophe, you nailed it!
This little watering hole in the midst of the vast universe is the best kind of thing that the internet has to offer, true common minds interacting and enjoying each other's company. Space-age positive humanity, it's even better than real life!
Cus, Here's a sample where I play simple lines in Eb. The first one is really short, sort of a call / response thing. 2 blocks of 4, starting on beat 1. You can even do less. Then I mix it up a little bit. But basically, I don't really pay attention to the notes, I just stick to the scales and chords. Between each little line, take a good amount of time to think about what great stuff you're gonna come up with next. You can either make it a decision to say "Next I start on beat 1 (or whatever)", and I think that's great as a practice tool. Then you just let go and stuff just naturally happen.
Hey Knotty I just wanna say thanks firstly for your time in working out what was happening in my improv and secondly for doing your very nice improv for me. I thought your improv sounded great, I've studied it a few times today and I'm going to study it many more times during the next couple of weeks so that I can internalise it.
What do you think of this attempt here ? I've gone back to basics: I come in on Beat 1 for all phrases, and I've stuck within the scale. It's at 76 bpm.
I'm really glad you're on this thread, I so appreciate the feedback from you and Dave. If you don't mind, I will be posting more often from now on, instead of waiting for 6 weeks thinking "I don't like my improv".
If you listen back to lesson 1, the solo pattern is a good example to listen to. Try to copy the swing feel.
In your latest sample, you got the accents good, but you switched back to a straight style. Remember all those hanons we swang? Shoot for that style. Listen to the tracks from lesson 1 for a good idea.
The notes in this example were just fine. You don't need to go wild. In many cases, the chord changes will provide enough change that you don't really need to do much to make a tune sound good. In the midst of the action, simple lines will sound good. Michel Petrucciani plays this solo on one of his tunes, and for a whole entire chorus, he plays only one note. It's really crazy. And the public goes wild.
Custard - I also found with the hanons, as soon as I sing, my speed is limited - very limited. I think I'll only take that so far.
I think I get the general idea with the arpeggios. Tim Richards has a couple similar exercises to this - only I'll do it with R, 3, 5, 7.
As for composing, what I've written before has been musically very simple - nursery rhyme stuff. I just now read the chapter from Metaphors.
Have to tell this story. Early this evening I was organising dinner and drafting a contract for a client (meeting this evening). My son comes down and announces it's time for him to write a song. Well, I didn't see that one coming. He'd seen a youtube clip that told him how to write a song. OK, I said, tell me.
First, you find a chord progression. Then you play that over and over till a tune comes into your head. Then you play the tune over and over and write words about whatever feelings come into your head.
Well, who was I to argue with that? So he starts with Am C G and of course he needs me to write the rhythm down before he forgets it, then he needs me to *play* the vamp while he comes up with a tune (not too good at singing while playing). When I came home from the meeting I got the full death metal performance. It really was a very sweet moment.
So, I'll get composing. Some time when I'm not making dinner or writing a contract or writing out someone else's song.
Hey 10 What a cute story about your son's expectations of you. So now you have the added external motivation from your son, as well as your internal motivation to create. It's great that Time is now a convert to composition.
As you can see I'm having a lot of trouble improvising but at least I've started the long journey. Without composition, I wouldn't even have known where to start.
Beginning with 1357 is fine, it's hard enough. I've been doing Knotty's exercise for Eb maj, I'm trying to do it at 80bpm today and it's a challenge.
If you listen back to lesson 1, the solo pattern is a good example to listen to. Try to copy the swing feel.
In your latest sample, you got the accents good, but you switched back to a straight style. Remember all those hanons we swang? Shoot for that style. Listen to the tracks from lesson 1 for a good idea.
The notes in this example were just fine. You don't need to go wild. In many cases, the chord changes will provide enough change that you don't really need to do much to make a tune sound good. In the midst of the action, simple lines will sound good. Michel Petrucciani plays this solo on one of his tunes, and for a whole entire chorus, he plays only one note. It's really crazy. And the public goes wild.
OOOoops Knotty, I listened back to my recording, you are right, I forgot to swing ! My excuse is that I was concentrating so hard on counting in 4s to get the accents right ! Back to Lesson 1 for me. I've put the JOI Solo Pattern in Transcribe.
For accenting, I remember you said not to worry about the beats. So I will accent the first note even when the line starts on Beat 2. Then my next accent will be on the beginning note of the next measure.
>> For accenting, I remember you said not to worry about the beats. >> So I will accent the first note even when the line starts on Beat 2. Then my next accent will be on the >> beginning note of the next measure. I'm not sure I follow the math.
But yes, you don't need to count beats and such. Just count in 4s. You have all the pieces, you just need to connect them together. It will take a while to really get that feeling. When you do, it's gonna feel right. When you start getting it consistently, speeding up is really not that big a deal.
I did arps up and down - wasn't quite sure what scale to play!
While I was at it, I recorded another noodly thing I do as part of scale practice: http://www.box.net/shared/q9v6ahefar I switch from E blues to E major blues. Mostly I just do a scale up and down, but sometimes I branch out a little.
>>Here's an arpeggio over ii-V-I: >>http://www.box.net/shared/mukdik9kuf
Start playing these things with the metronome. It doesn't have to be fast.
>> Also, recordings from JOI lesson 1: You're really good at singing the right pitches. Maybe your trumpet training, but you get that right.
One thing I'm not sure about, is the articulation. I never paid too much attention to mine, and I don't remember if the book mentions anything about that.
Dave, if you're listening: Ten is singing using pa-Dam pa-Dam pa-Dam. Anything else particular you might recommend ? I know you like the slice of Pizza, but TLT is from England, you see?
Dave, if you're listening: Ten is singing using pa-Dam pa-Dam pa-Dam. Anything else particular you might recommend ? I know you like the slice of Pizza, but TLT is from England, you see?
Correction: I'm from Scotland, which is a different (superior) country to England. However, I like a slice of pizza as much as the next New-Yorker.
I can do tiddly-pom, or obla-di, obla-da if Dave prefers. When I'm next in New York I'll buy him a slice of pizza.
Knotty: Thanks for listening, and the comments. I will try with a metronome.
TLT, that is impressive. There are some difficult intervals in that tune. OT for Ten: I have a neighbor from Scotland (he used to play the pipes too). One day I sent him a utoob link of an orchestra, with pipes, playing a beautiful Scottish tune. So he comes over & I ask him how he liked it? He said, "The orchestra was English". I said, "Yes!". He said, "You don't understand, the orchestra was English!". So I learned the facts of life that day.
Hey Knots I just wanted you to know that I'm still working on my swing for my improv. My theory is that my head is so full of stuff happening that, by the start of Phrase 3 of any sequence, I forget the fundamental thing which is to swing. This is at 84 bpm. Anyway I'm pleased you sent me back to Lesson 1.
Nice going custard! It's amazing how helpful these recordings are to keep us all going.
Random question: Does anyone else find these hanons are much much harder in swing? I've never before felt that my swing or my speed are held up by issues of technique - now I do. I suppose that's the point?
Permission to go off-topic:
Originally Posted By: time flies
OT for Ten: I have a neighbor from Scotland (he used to play the pipes too). One day I sent him a utoob link of an orchestra, with pipes, playing a beautiful Scottish tune. So he comes over & I ask him how he liked it? He said, "The orchestra was English". I said, "Yes!". He said, "You don't understand, the orchestra was English!". So I learned the facts of life that day.
Tradition has it, that when God was making Scotland, he intricately carved the rocky crags, smoothed the rolling hills of the borders, spent ages getting the mountains and the valleys just right. He laboured over the pearly white beaches of the Western Isles and even crafted a special sunset just for Arran. And then the angel Gabriel said unto him: Oh Lord, is it right to devote all this beauty to just one small, insignificant nation? Is it fair for the other nations to dedicate all your finest efforts in this one place?
And God scratched his chin and said: Gabriel, you may be right. But wait till you see who I'm giving them for neighbours...
did it feel better? This was 100 times better. Now keep focusing on this for every improv you do.
how many 2 5 keys have you done? The idea is that you'd want to spend equal amount on each 24 keys. 2-3 weeks per key sounds reasonable.
Thanks Knotty for reviewing. Yes it felt MUCH better and more natural. I kept on listening to Dave on Lesson 1 and you playing your Eb maj improv. This was my last key in major, I will do it again for you today at 88bpm and make sure I swing even after 2 phrases. Tomorrow should I go onto minor or further internalise major ?
Nice going custard! It's amazing how helpful these recordings are to keep us all going.
Random question: Does anyone else find these hanons are much much harder in swing? I've never before felt that my swing or my speed are held up by issues of technique - now I do. I suppose that's the point?
Thanks 10. I now know to submit recordings more often so that I don't keep on practising bad habits.
I only think of the Hanons in swing and can't imagine playing them straight. But maybe it's because I'm on Lesson 20 Hanons. Yes the point of the Hanons is to develop swing, speed, fingers 4 & 5, and endurance.
>> Tomorrow should I go onto minor or further internalise major ? Get with the minor key. Equally important to the major keys. Find nice chord voicings, you can find some in the books. The basic scale is the harmonic minor. The 1 will be a minor with the 6 in it. The 7th, if played, will be major, but can be omitted. So for the arp, you can experiment with 1 m3 5 6, or 1 m3 5 7
The 5 will have a flat 9 in it. so for arps, you can do 1357 and 3 5 7 b9
Thanks Knots especially for the examples as I haven't created a minor progression before. Can't wait to start on minor if you think this major one is OK.
Thanks 10. I now know to submit recordings more often so that I don't keep on practising bad habits.
I only think of the Hanons in swing and can't imagine playing them straight. But maybe it's because I'm on Lesson 20 Hanons. Yes the point of the Hanons is to develop swing, speed, fingers 4 & 5, and endurance.
When I listen to Bill Evans I think 'I can't do that'. When I listen to a recording here I think 'That sounds nice. What are they doing? Oh, I can do that!'
>> So are my counting-in-4 accents wrong for Phrases 1 and 3 ? Cus, you on the right track. Keep focusing on that feeling in 4 for each improv you do. It keeps the music flowing.
Here's my leaf line composition (both part A & B). Part A did not change. Part B required many revisions - this is version 11.2! I enjoyed doing this and learned a lot. And I also learned I have to record to really listen. I don't yet have the ability to really hear myself while I'm playing. The notes per hour (NPH) was very low. If this piece was a car I couldn't afford to drive it.
Time, I'm not qualified to critique - but I just think it sounds great! I like the phrasing - it grabbed me and kept me interested.
I'm thinking maybe it's time for me to move onto lesson 2. I think I could spend a year on lesson 1. And doing these arpeggios over the ii-V-I's is a major undertaking. (Knotty, I've found the metronome grinds me to a halt and makes it not enjoyable. I'm just going to stick with it and allow myself the hesitations for now). Plus I've decided I really ought to do minor ones too.
I've found listening to Louis Armstrong is really inspiring. His vibrato is incredible - you could drive a bus through it. He is so careful that his phrases are never exactly matched or symetrical.
I also want to share this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brqxEdwsTQs I came across it while reading through Mark Levine's book, as he uses this for some examples. At the end there is the most fantastic example of circular breathing I have ever seen. I just timed him. He keeps it going for one minute 20 seconds! Just unbelievable. In the same shot there's another saxophonist who looks bored as anything. Ne - I hear this all the time.
Here's my leaf line composition (both part A & B). Part A did not change. Part B required many revisions - this is version 11.2! I enjoyed doing this and learned a lot. And I also learned I have to record to really listen. I don't yet have the ability to really hear myself while I'm playing. The note per hours (NPH) was very low. If this piece was a car I couldn't afford to drive it.
How amazing was this, Time Flies ! Congratulations. I really enjoyed it. I'm so pleased you love composing and found the time-consuming revision process rewarding. As Knotty said, it is GOOD to have multiple revisions. Composing is such a good way to drip-feed great stuff into your subconscious.
Re recording, I'm surprised at what I find out about my own playing. For example, I thought I was swinging until Knotty said I wasn't. Then I checked back to my recording which clearly showed that I had stopped swinging by Phrase 3.
I'm thinking maybe it's time for me to move onto lesson 2. I think I could spend a year on lesson 1. And doing these arpeggios over the ii-V-I's is a major undertaking. (Knotty, I've found the metronome grinds me to a halt and makes it not enjoyable. I'm just going to stick with it and allow myself the hesitations for now). Plus I've decided I really ought to do minor ones too.
I've found listening to Louis Armstrong is really inspiring. His vibrato is incredible - you could drive a bus through it. He is so careful that his phrases are never exactly matched or symetrical.
I also want to share this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brqxEdwsTQs I came across it while reading through Mark Levine's book, as he uses this for some examples. At the end there is the most fantastic example of circular breathing I have ever seen. I just timed him. He keeps it going for one minute 20 seconds! Just unbelievable. In the same shot there's another saxophonist who looks bored as anything. Ne - I hear this all the time.
Hi 10 I think you've spent a couple of weeks now on Lesson 1, I spent one and a half weeks on it. And when you are doing Lesson 2, you should also be revising your Lesson 1 tunes. As well, you will return to Lesson 1 when you do your 1st composition. How did you go with Exercise 3 voicings ?
I agree that one could spend a whole year on Lesson 1 to explore its beautiful melodies and voicings.
Re metronome, I think a lot of classical people such as ourselves will initially resist it, but over time, it will become your best friend.
Thanks for the incredible vid, I didn't know the sax player before, I can't imagine how long he spent practising that technique.
That's a great composition. You have a natural talent, that's for sure. Are you going through the entire method, or just a few elements?
Cus, >> Then I checked back to my recording which clearly showed that I had stopped swinging by Phrase 3. You will get this concept slowly. I'm still trying to get it. Each time you get it, the music flows. Simply focusing and reminding yourself will get you a long way. Listening to the samples before you play will help, too.
Tlt, Knotty, I've found the metronome grinds me to a halt and makes it not enjoyable. I'm just going to stick with it and allow myself the hesitations for now. Perhaps a drum beat would help then. It's really critical to get a good sense of time. The metronome is really a great friend, a dumb drummer, but one that keeps the beat. I'm surprised by Cus' comment on classically trained musicians not using the metronome. I"m not sure I understand. The single most important part of jazz is rhythm, and your ability to play notes at the right time depends on you being able to develop an internal pulse. This should not block you. Give in to the metronome slowly...
I'm surprised by Cus' comment on classically trained musicians not using the metronome. I"m not sure I understand. The single most important part of jazz is rhythm, and your ability to play notes at the right time depends on you being able to develop an internal pulse. This should not block you. Give in to the metronome slowly...
Sorry for being unclear. It was just a generalisation about amateur classical musicians from you-tube and my own experience. When some of the purely classical amateur dudes play something demanding such as Bach, it's clear they have not practised with a metronome. Also when I was learning classical, I hardly ever turned on my metronome, whereas now I use it regularly for jazz. In fact I was extremely uncomfortable with using the metronome when I first started JOI. Now I love using it for my JOI tunes, as you say, it is my drummer.
I meant that the rhythmic element in the practice of a jazzer, whether from a classical background or not, seems to play a more prominent role.
>> Tomorrow should I go onto minor or further internalise major ? Get with the minor key. Equally important to the major keys. Find nice chord voicings, you can find some in the books. The basic scale is the harmonic minor. The 1 will be a minor with the 6 in it. The 7th, if played, will be major, but can be omitted. So for the arp, you can experiment with 1 m3 5 6, or 1 m3 5 7
The 5 will have a flat 9 in it. so for arps, you can do 1357 and 3 5 7 b9
Guess what Knotty ?! It's me again, could I please check this with you as I'm not familiar with a ii V i minor progression. I'm going to work on A min first.
What do you think of this progression ? B min 7: F# G B D (5 6 R b3) for 1 measure E7: F Ab B D (the dim chord b9 3 5 b7) for 1 measure A min 6: F# A C E (6 R b3 5) for 2 measures
Do you think the A min 6 sounds unresolved ?
When you gave me arps I could practise for each measure, do you want me to take a more local approach ? Because I remember that you said you think more globally when you improvise, like the whole progression is A min ?
Sorry, I think it might have been me who was unclear about metronomes. Metronomes are my friends, in fact, I bought a new mechanical one the other day that has a little dinger of a bell for the first beat of the bar, and you can set it to 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 beats in the bar, or just straight clicks. I also use a live recording of a drummer at different speeds, which gives a more musical effect.
But the other day I started noodling around arpeggios over a ii-V-I progression, and knotty's comment (with which I won't argue) is that I should do it to a metronome. However, for me, it's been important to allow myself to noodle. The whole point being that I break the challenge of improvising into smaller chunks and work on them separately before expecting myself to be able to do it. So I do have several drills around ii-V-I's that I do to a metronome - but freely doing arpeggios up and down, well that will have to wait till I am comfortable doing it in all keys first. (Normally takes a couple of weeks).
Custard - it's interesting what you say about recordings. Randy Halberstadt talks a lot about listening to yourself as you play - but I think it's easier said than done. Recording's the next best thing! (Maybe actually a teacher is next best).
What do you think of this progression ? B min 7: F# G B D (5 6 R b3) for 1 measure E7: F Ab B D (the dim chord b9 3 5 b7) for 1 measure A min 6: F# A C E (6 R b3 5) for 2 measures
The B is a -7b5. The 5 is flat, so you gotta have an F natural in there. Also, extensions don't work all that great on these chords, so keep it simple. F A B D. or D F A B Your E7 is good, only one voice is moving from the B- The A-6 is good too.
>>When you gave me arps I could practise for each measure, do you want me to take a more local approach ? >>Because I remember that you said you think more globally when you improvise, like the whole progression >>is A min ? There's a time for practicing stuff mechanically, and a time for letting go. Exercises is where you can get mechanical with chords and arps. When you solo, hopefully, you've absorbed a fair amount of sounds, and you will naturally let them come out.
Composing is such a good way to drip-feed great stuff into your subconscious.
Nicely stated, Cus.
Quote:
Are you going through the entire method, or just a few elements?
Knotty, my intention is to go through the entire method. I recently downloaded Armstrong's "Struttin...". I'm going to try a monotone scat to at least pick up the rhythm and phrasing as TLT suggested.
Re listening to yourself and metronomes: Once I got this tune up to the tempo I wanted, I recorded and decided to run the metronome (with first beat emphasis) along with the recording. I discovered one measure had five beats! That's how bad a listener I am.
I recorded and decided to run the metronome (with first beat emphasis) along with the recording. I discovered one measure had five beats! That's how bad a listener I am.
Just goes to show, when you're concentrating on one thing, other things fly out the window. Like those experiments where they show a group of people passing a ball between them and ask observers to count how many times the ball is passed. While it runs, a guy in a bee suit joins the group, waves, and leaves. Once it's over, none of the observers noticed the guy in the bee suit.
Yeah Ten, it's really hard to do more than one thing at the same time. For me, my current challenge for improv is to swing and count in 4s at the same time.
I did the Exercise 3 voicings until I reached Lesson 19 when I started working on the major ii V I progressions.
What do you think of this progression ? B min 7: F# G B D (5 6 R b3) for 1 measure E7: F Ab B D (the dim chord b9 3 5 b7) for 1 measure A min 6: F# A C E (6 R b3 5) for 2 measures
The B is a -7b5. The 5 is flat, so you gotta have an F natural in there.
>>When you gave me arps I could practise for each measure, do you want me to take a more local approach ? >>Because I remember that you said you think more globally when you improvise, like the whole progression >>is A min ? There's a time for practicing stuff mechanically, and a time for letting go. Exercises is where you can get mechanical with chords and arps. When you solo, hopefully, you've absorbed a fair amount of sounds, and you will naturally let them come out.
++
Hi Knots Thanks for your great answer. What is the theory behind the ii needing a b5 ?
Because when I looked through Dave's progression in Lesson 19 Exercise 3 Gmin6 C7 Fm6 Dave's G min 6 is A Bb D (2 b3 5).
Hi Knots Thanks for your great answer. What is the theory behind the ii needing a b5 ?
Hi custard,
The way I see it, I imagine the ii of the minor key is the vii of the relative key - so it's going to be a diminished triad. So, if it was ii of A minor, then that would be vii of C major (B, D, F). Hence flattened 5th.
Mmm, thanks 10, that's a nice way to think about it. Your example illustrates it well. But I'm still intrigued as to why ii of a min key =vii of the relative major.
Cus, think about the key signatures. In A minor there are no sharps or flats. Building a II chord in 3rds we get B-D-F-A (where F is the flat 5). The relative major of A minor is C. That same chord, B-D-F-A is VII in C.
In C minor there are 3 flats: Bb, Eb and Ab. Building a II chord in C minor we get D-F-Ab-C (where Ab is the flat 5). We flat the A because of the key sig. That chord, D-F-Ab-C is also VII in C's relative major Eb.
When doing dominants (the V chord) think harmonic minor scale where the 7th degree of the scale is raised; that's how you get G-B(natural)-D-F. The harmonic minor in C: C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-B natural(the 7th in the scale)
Building a II chord in 3rds we get B-D-F-A (where F is the flat 5).
tf
Thank you Time. You've made it a whole lot clearer for me. Yeah, thinking of the min in terms of building 3rds on the 2nd degree, I get the DFAB that you and Knotty suggested. I will use this voicing since I understand it.
But I'm still intrigued as to why ii of a min key =vii of the relative major.
Hi custard, Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I just want to be sure that you're OK with relative majors and minors. The clue is in the key signature, as tf says. But let me make it more basic.
If you play the white notes of the piano from C to the next C you get the C major scale. If you start on the 6th note (A) and play from A to A you get the A natural minor scale (if we can for a moments, forget about sharpened 7ths and the like).
So C major and A minor are relatives. If I'm in A minor and I' playing chord i (A minor) then I could equally well see myself as being in C major and playing chord vi. And quite a few tunes do haver between the relative major and minor, to the point you stop caring which you are actually in.
I tend to think in majors more easily (simpler, and I learned them first), so I often view the minor key as being in it's relative major. I try not to think of them as separate keys.
Maybe not everyone thinks like this. But for me, C minor isn't really its own thing - its just a different shade of Eb major. So the switch from C major to C minor is really a switch from C major to Eb major.
Thanks for your help Ten. I hadn't ever tried to learn majors-relative minors. So you are thinking of them a bit like modes, that's interesting, and would make the learning easier I think.
For the purposes of the A minor ii V I sequence, then you would think of the B min 7 F A B D as 4 6 7 9 of C major. The 4 seems weird to me.
To me I think of the F A B D as b5 b7 R b3 of B min.
Thanks for your help Ten. I hadn't ever tried to learn majors-relative minors. So you are thinking of them a bit like modes, that's interesting, and would make the learning easier I think.
For the purposes of the A minor ii V I sequence, then you would think of the B min 7 F A B D as 4 6 7 9 of C major. The 4 seems weird to me.
To me I think of the F A B D as b5 b7 R b3 of B min.
Scales, relative majors and minors are essential knowledge. I think you will get confused delving too much into minors without being sure how they relate to majors. Personally I do this by playing scales. As a kid I did major and harmonic minor, now I do natural minor too as it helps build the theory into my fingers.
Yes, these are basically ionian and aeolian modes, but I don't like using terms that are more complex than they need to be.
Hi 10 Thanks, that was my last post for the night ! Even though this concept is relatively new to me, I am becoming cool with it. So for the A min, I can kinda think of it like C maj 7 #5.
And I've found that doing arrangements of standards has really helped. As you say, it's sometimes hard to tell whether a song is major or minor as they are so related. After doing Never Let Me Go, I will never forget that G min is the relative of Bb major.
Custard - Glad that was helpful. Just another little key to help unlock theory and make it make sense. If you know the scales, then being aware of their relations will only help.
I've done a recording of The Last Time: http://www.box.net/shared/ghcmbo6b8y You will hear metronome (I set it fairly slow), myself on solo kazoo and my son on rhythm zakoo. There is an expletive at the end, as he realises I've been recording. All comments appreciated, and I'll let him see them. I think he finds the whole thing quite fun!
I do just try to chip away at the material. Today I was making awful heavy weather of the hanon (lesson 2). The I tried doing it with my eyes closed, and found it much easier. It was like I had to really focus on the pattern to get my fingers there - and the input from my eyes was just confusing me. So I'm visualising the pattern, but not seeing it.
Since then I've tried a few drills and patterns with eyes closed - and I'm quite amazed what I can do, just relying on feel. I'm not trying hard. I also feel that closing my eyes makes my ears work harder.
Encore ! I am still smiling, this is fantastic, I love your phrasing and your duo sounds like a zoo. Sounds like you are having so much fun with the singing. Congrats !
Yes with the Hanons I also find them easier with my eyes closed, as you say, it makes your ears work harder.
you might be surprised how much of this stuff you guys will be internalizing while singing those lines. I'd still do 1 or 2 Louis if you got the energy for it. Louis's nice because it really swings, but the lines are easier than later musicians.
I'm hoping some of this will rub off on him. At his age, he absorbs ideas so easily. I don't know if it's a coincidence that he's had a spree of song-writing while I'm studying jazz. That was two songs in the space of a week - admittedly he didn't finish the second song. But his musical ideas are real, and there are genuinely his. It's really humbling to watch him.
As for me, I've been spending more time with my eyes closed at the piano.
It's a strange thing, that I think the point of JOI is not to actually play piano (at least not yet, not for me). The work that's going on is mostly aural. Singing this, singing that. The piano is quite incidental, so far. Except maybe for the hanons, and they don't really count.
If I could I would do it on guitar too, but my knowledge just isn't up to it.
It struck me how very strange it is to be practising something, but without actually trying to get it to sound as good, or as musical, as possible. For it to sound good, I would need to not sing. Me opening my mouth makes it not sound so good. But that is the exercise.
Some of this stuff is not easy to sing. I don't know what kind of range Dave thinks is normal, but I certainly don't have it! But in listening to myself I realise, even when I go quite badly off key, I correct myself.
I also did some recordings of ii-V-I + arps + metronome, but they are pretty rough. I will post tomorrow if I'm brave enough. If I don't post, you'll know I chickened out.
Hey 10 That's a cool idea to record yourself doing the JOI tunes. Wow, you're good at singing exactly one octave lower. You're doing great. And even with no LH chords, you're good at keeping in tune. The songs get harder to sing IMO.
In the blues one, it seemed your accents and swing were good when you weren't singing. I know I must sound like a hypocrite commenting on your accents and swing because these are my problem areas at the moment !
I'll check it out tomorrow. Post whatever you feel comfortable posting. Improvising on a simple 2-5-1 is a great way to get started. Writing a few compositions first will really help you. It makes you internalize progressions. It's really odd, but it works.
Hi 10 Please accept my apologies. I just looked back at my post and realised it didn't make sense. I meant that your swing feel and accents were great but even better when you didn't have to worry about playing at the same time.
I think I'm the opposite. My rhythm is liable to go wrong when I'm singing just the LH chords or a capella - but I didn't realise this until today. I only started recording myself playing the JOI tunes today, having been inspired by your post.
You've made me take the singing more seriously. I've been doing the singing but not recording. I think the singing exercise, besides helping us internalise the great JOI tunes, really exposes where our weaknesses are, which for me is rhythm.
I will post my Lesson 23 blues singing with the melody. But I deleted my LH chords and a capella versions when I played them back and noticed something wrong with the rhythm. Now it's too late for the neighbours to re-record.
Your recordings are great. I can tell you I've never been able to play or sing those as well as you just did. Of the 2, I prefer the first, and I think it's because of the metronome on 2 and 4. Good idea to do that. It really made you swing hard.
You can move through the tunes faster than the hanons if you'd like. Seems like the tunes come easy for you.
Lesson 23! Tough tune! You sang it really well. No need to push the metronome, play it where it's comfortable. Ten just set a new standard by first playing & singing, then singing with LH chords, and finally singing a capella. Be sure to do that, even if you don't record.
How's everyone doing? Jazzin? I also did some recordings of ii-V-I + arps + metronome, but they are pretty rough. I will post tomorrow if I'm brave enough. If I don't post, you'll know I chickened out.
When you get to lesson 5 or 6 on the tunes, you should start doing compositions like Cus has been doing. That will totally set you free on the improv. I think Dave usually has students improvise when they get to lesson 12 or 15. Around there. By then, you've composed over a few tunes. The process of composing a solo is unbelievable because all you have to do is write it as if it was improvised, but you're given all the time you want. Yet, it's very difficult. The thought process is what helped me get free. It's really amazing. It's like digging for buried treasure inside your head.
Hi 10 Please accept my apologies. I just looked back at my post and realised it didn't make sense. I meant that your swing feel and accents were great but even better when you didn't have to worry about playing at the same time.
Not at all. It was an interesting observation. I swing the piano harder when I'm not singing. This doesn't bother me at all, because if I ever (and I can't see why I would - Elton John watch out) sing and play piano at the same time, I certainly won't be duplicating voice and RH.
Basically I sat down to play and realised after a few bars I'd forgotten to sing, so I just kept going.
As for the swing, custard, all I can say is I had to work really hard on that.
Thankyou both for your kind comments.
I will post more later. Now I have a 30 minute slot where I can play piano.
Custard, that tune doesn't sound easy at all. You do a good job of it. I only noticed one spot where the rhythm went. At the end of the day, if this was easy, we wouldn't be doing it...
Thanks for all the compliments on the singing! It makes me realise I actually did a lot of singing as a kid. I never really thought about it before, but I am fairly good at holding my tune. I always sang mezzo or alto, so I had to be able to hold the harmony.
In fact, at risk of going off topic... For out music class (I think this was 4th year of high school, so we were all music-specialists) we sang old English madrigals, in 3 part counterpoint. We loved this so much we would ask to use a room over lunch, and begged the teachers to let us have the madrigal books.
I'm not sure the teachers ever understood why. The first song in the book was called 'Where the bee sucks, there suck I'. The front cover was a photograph of an ancient manuscript of this song. It was written out in old English characters so all the s's looked like f's. And I'm afraid, when we were 15, that was about the funniest thing we had ever seen.
I had done some dreadful recordings of arpeggios over ii-V-I's with the metronome. Basically I was not in control, though I could stumble by without the metronome, by allowing myself hesitation. Well, today was the key of G, and guess what? I can do it! Clearly some keys are more familiar to my fingers than others.
Ten I agree with Knotty that you're learning the tunes very quickly. For me, I take 3 times as long to learn the jazz tune as the blues one. You've got the voice, the co-ordination and rhythmic feel to play and sing at the same time IMO.
Knots Thanks for reviewing Lesson 23 Blues. Yes Ten has set a new standard for doing the singing so accurately. I usually sing with the melody accurately, and less accurately with LH chords and a capella. But now Ten has encouraged me to get all my intervals and rhythm right when I sing with LH chords and a capella.
Custard, that tune doesn't sound easy at all. You do a good job of it. I only noticed one spot where the rhythm went. At the end of the day, if this was easy, we wouldn't be doing it...
Thanks for all the compliments on the singing! It makes me realise I actually did a lot of singing as a kid. I never really thought about it before, but I am fairly good at holding my tune. I always sang mezzo or alto, so I had to be able to hold the harmony.
In fact, at risk of going off topic... For out music class (I think this was 4th year of high school, so we were all music-specialists) we sang old English madrigals, in 3 part counterpoint. We loved this so much we would ask to use a room over lunch, and begged the teachers to let us have the madrigal books.
I'm not sure the teachers ever understood why. The first song in the book was called 'Where the bee sucks, there suck I'. The front cover was a photograph of an ancient manuscript of this song. It was written out in old English characters so all the s's looked like f's. And I'm afraid, when we were 15, that was about the funniest thing we had ever seen.
I had done some dreadful recordings of arpeggios over ii-V-I's with the metronome. Basically I was not in control, though I could stumble by without the metronome, by allowing myself hesitation. Well, today was the key of G, and guess what? I can do it! Clearly some keys are more familiar to my fingers than others.
Custard, that tune doesn't sound easy at all. You do a good job of it. I only noticed one spot where the rhythm went. At the end of the day, if this was easy, we wouldn't be doing it...
Thanks for all the compliments on the singing! It makes me realise I actually did a lot of singing as a kid. I never really thought about it before, but I am fairly good at holding my tune. I always sang mezzo or alto, so I had to be able to hold the harmony.
In fact, at risk of going off topic... For out music class (I think this was 4th year of high school, so we were all music-specialists) we sang old English madrigals, in 3 part counterpoint. We loved this so much we would ask to use a room over lunch, and begged the teachers to let us have the madrigal books.
I'm not sure the teachers ever understood why. The first song in the book was called 'Where the bee sucks, there suck I'. The front cover was a photograph of an ancient manuscript of this song. It was written out in old English characters so all the s's looked like f's. And I'm afraid, when we were 15, that was about the funniest thing we had ever seen.
I had done some dreadful recordings of arpeggios over ii-V-I's with the metronome. Basically I was not in control, though I could stumble by without the metronome, by allowing myself hesitation. Well, today was the key of G, and guess what? I can do it! Clearly some keys are more familiar to my fingers than others.
Hi It's been one and a half weeks since I posted an improv so I'd really like your feedback. It's my first ever minor 6 progression. I do ii V i of A min 6 @ 84 bpm.
Good Amelia. Your jazz feel is perfect, your phrases are complete and the rests between them feel natural. You might have wanted to end the last phrase on an A instead of a Ab, that would have made that phrase sound more nailed, although I kinda liked the unresolved feeling that ending on the Ab gave too..
If you do 6 keys of these progressions for improv, that's enough. Usually C F G Bb Eb Ab for the major progressions, and C D F G A Bb of the minor ones. The progressions you did so far involved using one scale only. The next one to do would be a combination prog of 2m7 5dom 7 1Maj7 going to 2m7b5 5Dom7 1m6 of the relative minor:
Dm7/G7/CMaj7/CMaj7/ Bm7b5/E7/Am6/Am6, do this for awhile in C F G Bb Eb Ab, 2-3 keys/week..
improv with the C Maj scale for the first 4 measures and the A harmonic minor for the second 4 measures. This will teach you how to switch scales while maintaining the flow-phrase-breathe concept of creating melodic lines. It's like slalom skiing as opposed to downhill skiing. This is the basic concept of improvising over tunes - changing scales while continuing the flowing and phrasing of the melodies.
You are learning to improvise. I am proud of you:)
Hi It's been one and a half weeks since I posted an improv so I'd really like your feedback. It's my first ever minor 6 progression. I do ii V i of A min 6 @ 84 bpm.
Good Amelia. Your jazz feel is perfect, your phrases are complete and the rests between them feel natural. You might have wanted to end the last phrase on an A instead of a Ab, that would have made that phrase sound more nailed, although I kinda liked the unresolved feeling that ending on the Ab gave too..
If you do 6 keys of these progressions for improv, that's enough. Usually C F G Bb Eb Ab for the major progressions, and C D F G A Bb of the minor ones. The progressions you did so far involved using one scale only. The next one to do would be a combination prog of 2m7 5dom 7 1Maj7 going to 2m7b5 5Dom7 1m6 of the relative minor:
Dm7/G7/CMaj7/CMaj7/ Bm7b5/E7/Am6/Am6, do this for awhile in C F G Bb Eb Ab, 2-3 keys/week..
improv with the C Maj scale for the first 4 measures and the A harmonic minor for the second 4 measures. This will teach you how to switch scales while maintaining the flow-phrase-breathe concept of creating melodic lines. It's like slalom skiing as opposed to downhill skiing. This is the basic concept of improvising over tunes - changing scales while continuing the flowing and phrasing of the melodies.
You are learning to improvise. I am proud of you:)
Dave Frank
Hi Dave Thanks so much for your encouragement, feedback and your clear advice on the next steps. I look forward to creating more slalom skiing-like lines. Yes concentrating on your suggested keys makes the task seem less daunting.
I feel I am living proof that your methodology works. I came off a very low base. I only listened to Keith Jarrett when I started JOI, I couldn't find a teacher here in Sydney who could do your swing, I didn't know what blues was, and I didn't know where to start for playing jazz songs.
I can't believe that I've achieved this in less than a year of JOI.
Thanks for making your JOI methodology and your hot masterclasses so accessible to everyone.
Thanks Knotty for guiding me through JOI. Thanks Ten for learning along with me. Yes I love the cool sound of minor and find that it is more forgiving/accommodating than major.
I'm nursing a head cold today and stuck on the JOI CD while I went to bed. Maybe it's that the tunes seem more impressive when I've not already butchered them, or maybe things really do pick up at lesson 3? Nothing against what I've learned so far, but the material from 3 on sounds like something you might play to impress, rather than 'a study in a book'. Anyway, I enjoyed having Dave serenade me, and then when the CD finished I woke up.
I also decided it's time to start lesson 3.
I started writing something over the bassline of leaf line, but I'm nowhere near happy with it.
Also, bird's bounce in lesson 12: shouldn't that one be credited to Charlie Parker and Benny Harris?
wow I am really amazed by your progress since you started with Joy. Great motivation for myself. You you keep up this pace you'll be a monster on the keys soon
I am currently working through the foundation with Dave that why I have been a bit quiet here. Cant wait until I start improvising too.
Now, I do have this vague notion that I'm in Bb, so G is chord vi, so I'm kind of expecting a Gmin7, but hey, I've learned not to be too rigid about these things. But this 'G7' also has an Eb (min 6th) and an Ab (b9th).
????
Any offers? Don't worry, you can tell me. If it's too complex I'll just put it down to experience. No doubt it's a tofu substitution or I've modulated into another galaxy or something.
you analysis is correct. The original song is in Bb which has a Gminor. However what you have often in Jazz and Gospel music is that the minor chord will be turned into a dominant chord so that there is a stronger pull towards the minor that follows thereafter -> which in this case is the Cmin7. In most songs when there are 2 minord chords in a progression, the first one can be made a dominant.
Now regarding the G7:
The actual chord is a G7b9b13 or G7b9#5 once again a very common chord in Jazz. The reason why people usually just notate it as G7 is that there are very few rules regarding dominant chords. In fact, people say that you can throw in any possible extension under the sun when using a dominant chord. So people just write G7 and leave it to the player to add the extension they prefer. Black gospel musucians for example often use the G7#9#5 when going to the Cmin chord.
Thanks saiman. And I suppose if I take the analogy of the minor ii-V-i then the V has a minor 6th and either flattened or sharpened 9th anyway. Got it.
However what you have often in Jazz and Gospel music is that the minor chord will be turned into a dominant chord so that there is a stronger pull towards the minor that follows thereafter -> which in this case is the Cmin7. In most songs when there are 2 minord chords in a progression, the first one can be made a dominant.
That's interesting, I didn't know that, but it makes a lot of sense. Does that mean that for my A min 6 ii V i progression, that I can treat the Bmin7b5 as a dominant chord ?
Hi Simon Thanks very much for your kind words. I thought your first two compositions were great and I'm looking forward to hearing your 3rd one. I know that you will improve at an even quicker rate than mine.
Hey Ten Sounds like your brain is working hot, good to know you're recovering from your head cold.
Thanks. Still having trouble breathing, but I did some music today, and I've fallen in love with Froggy Day. I drift in and out of fogginess.
As for your question - I'm not sure. I think it's more the E7 that's dominant, but I wouldn't like to say that the B half dim couldn't be something else, because there seems to be so many possibilities on the table.
While practicing today I really felt I'm getting the benefit of these hanons, especially for my RH. I feel like I can thump it good and strong when I want to, and not lose rhythm or legato, also that awkward clusters just don't feel as awkward.
However, when I'm doing the hanons my LH feels like a wet rag I carry around with me.
Hi 10 That's wonderful you're feeling more comfortable with the Hanons. I found that as I got faster, it became more difficult to play the notes deep.
Hey Knotty You and your band are good at this type of bossa feel. It must have felt cool to introduce and end the song. How did you get the Stan Getz shirt ? And playing all those instruments must keep you busy during band practice
You're right cus, I was having way too much fun borrowing everybody else's instruments. I'm going to start posting more on youtube, hopefully, I'll get more pics that people are ok with me posting.
lol I loved your movie. For When I Fall in Love, I've done Sections A and B. Some days I don't have the opportunity to even practise improvising, so I unfortunately don't get onto arranging. It's a pity, I like arranging and I really like the song, I find it is so melodic and has so many whole notes that it lends itself to arranging even more easily than Never Let Me Go.
Knotty - wonderful recording! The group sounds really together. I'm with custard on the shirt. Great photographs, too. You guys do any live gigs?
I feel a little better about the LH on the hanons. Still worth sticking at it. I mostly do them together, sometimes LH only in the hope of waking it up.
>>OMG I've just realised what leaf line is. blush blush blush I actually thought you were joking earlier...
>> So - what's Joy of C and Froggy Day then? If I remember well, lesson 2 is Lullaby of the Leaves which was a Tristano favorite. But also beautiful and simple changes.
Froggy day. I'll let you brain work a little longer. What tunes in 3 do you know? I have to say, the title is quite clever :-)
>> You guys do any live gigs? There's mixed feelings about that. I'm trying to get some. Most guys don't want to do them for free, and I don't blame them, unless it's somewhat high profile. Trying to get some but it seems pretty scarce. We did one a few months back at the IMF, but we got this because someone belonged to the IMF, and blah blah blah. Unless you belong to some local golf, boat, tennis club, it's not super easy to find places to play.
Froggy day. I'll let you brain work a little longer. What tunes in 3 do you know? I have to say, the title is quite clever :-)
Clever title, eh? Well, it's unlikely to be brain work. As a friend once said to me, you don't know what you don't know. I certainly don't know any tunes, but the hanon's starting to sound awful familiar.
I have a real problem of getting to know the standards, and it is partly that there's just so much out there. So people say "listen" and I do - but I can listen for hours and nothing goes in. Unless I play it. If I play it too, it goes in. So I've made a rule - if I play something, I listen to it too. Then at least I will know that tune. And I have picked up a few things this way. I also try to make a point of listening to things that are mentioned a lot in the Levine and Halberstadt books I have, but again I find if I don't play it, it's fairly pointless.
The other problem I have is that jazz assumes you know the tune, and therefore doesn't just play it. Sometimes I really need to dig and search to find just the plain simple tune.
Good luck to your band, with gigs. I can see the point about wanting to play for money (in other words, be valued). On the other hand, sometimes a goal - any goal - is useful.
>>So people say "listen" and I do - but I can listen for hours and nothing goes in. Unless I play it. If I play it too, it goes in. So I've made a rule - if I play something, I listen to it too. Then at least I will know that tune. And I have picked up a few things this way. I also try to make a point of listening to things that are mentioned a lot in the Levine and Halberstadt books I have, but again I find if I don't play it, it's fairly pointless.
It's not pointless, and stuff does go in. Listening to jazz all the time is really important. But singing along to solos is like listening power 10.
Lullaby of the leaves is the title of lesson 2. Someday my prince will come is lesson 3.
I just spent some time with youtube, amazon, and my fakebook, making sense of this.
Originally Posted By: knotty
It's not pointless, and stuff does go in. Listening to jazz all the time is really important. But singing along to solos is like listening power 10.
Listening by itself is not totally pointless - but I have been disappointed in how little I pick up from just listening. I hear - I forget. I do - I learn.
So I've had various projects - listen to lots of Miles Davis. Or listen to lots of Art Tatum. But most of the time I could be listening to whale song, for all the sense it makes.
But if I make a real and concentrated effort, as with singing along to Louis, then I see a big benefit. So if I'm doing these 26 solos, and they are all standards, then that'll be another 26 standards I know, by the end of the book. Plus the solos, of course.
Well I had the house to myself for over an hour today so I did some recordings. I post here in the spirit of sharing, and while I'm always happy for feedback, I don't want anyone to feel like they *must* comment, or comment on everything.
Last night I learned some jazz chords on guitar, and here I try them out on Someday my prince will come (reading chords off Froggy day): http://www.box.net/shared/l648vlemiz Needless to say I have a long way to go on guitar.
Then I thought it would be good to do the same on piano - just LH chords as written, and sing the standard melody. I didn't find this as utterly easy as it sounds - makes me realise where I don't know the tune all that well. http://www.box.net/shared/4cdmhk1lbr http://www.box.net/shared/oajzqlr86z
But I feel it's probably quite a good exercise, and I think I'll do it for all the lessons.
Thanks for the nice words. Yes, I think trading back and forth between piano and guitar was a nice change, and worked out great. I'll check out your stuff later today.
Saiman, I owe it all to Dave Frank. You'll be doing your own stuff real soon.
Your recordings sounded really great. You really nailed those tunes. Nice tempo too. Those last ones where you sing the melody and play the chords are going to really help you remembering the voicings. You'll go back to them without even thinking about it.
Do a few more lessons and then let's start on the compositions. Looks like you'll enjoy a nice challenge!
Those last ones where you sing the melody and play the chords are going to really help you remembering the voicings. You'll go back to them without even thinking about it.
I really depend on the written-out music, though. I'm not reading the chord names.
A few posts mention the Standards behind some of the JOI tunes, but is there a complete listing of them (other than in Dave Frank's mind)?
1 JOI p33 at the top says "beginning improv students will also greatly benefit by playing and singing the original melodies to standard tunes", which is only possible with the JOI left hand accompanyment, if one knows the standard tunes behind the chords.
Can anybody help here? This should be of general interest, and not just my personal question.
Well, I am new to this and am just in Lesson 3, so how about the first half of 1 JOI for the beginners' benefit? That will keep us going for a while, but I am sure that there are some working in the last half of 1 JOI and some working in 2 JOI as well.
Got it. Thanks for the encouragement. I'll keep going with the chords, piano and guitar.
I would also find it helpful to know the standards behind the JOI tunes. I'm sure the idea is that we work it out, but I think in my case my time can be more fruitfully spent doing something else. Like practising.
Autumn Leaves Lullaby of the leaves Someday my prince Here's that rainy day Sugar All of me Topsy Getting Sentimental Beautiful Love Just Friends Angel Eyes How High the Moon There's no greater love.
As a kid, I used to listen to a lot of Ella. I knew whatever solos I had on records by heart. For a long time, I thought Ornithology was just Ella's creation. Until I heard Bird play it. How high the moon and Mack the knife were a big favorite ... I must have been no older than 8, and I still know those solos note for note. I couldn't understand a word of the lyrics, later I understood she was making a lot of it up. Good memories
Thank you very much Knotty for the names of the secret standards behind 1 JOI 1-13! By the way, I learned about JOI indirectly from you, when you favorited one of Dave Frank's YouTube videos and I then looked at his site; that was a wonderful discovery for me. So thank you very much for that, too.
Hi 2 Shlow Welcome to this thread and I hope you will have a cool time hanging out with us. Similarly, I got onto JOI when everyone was complimenting Knotty, at the same time lots of people in the Non Classical forum were getting JOI, so I didn't want to miss out.
Hi Ten Well done on A Froggy Day. This was a difficult song and much harder than the Lesson 1 and 2 songs. Although it is primarily in Bb maj, you will have noticed the modulations into C min and Eb maj. And the syncopation was not easy but you handled it well. You are playing at a fast tempo for Lesson 3. Did you feel relaxed doing it ? Or did you find that you could swing even better at a slightly slower tempo ?
I agree with Knotty that it doesn't matter if you are reading the notes in the chords. Your brain will still absorb the sounds fine. A chord exists in the context of a progression, and you will internalise the nice ii V I voicings in the JOI tunes.
>> By the way, I learned about JOI indirectly from you, when you favorited one of Dave Frank's YouTube videos
How about that?!
Welcome to the thread! If you'd had the patience to read through the thread, you probably know that the idea is to do a few lessons, up a 5 or so, before digging into other things.
Hi Ten Well done on A Froggy Day. This was a difficult song and much harder than the Lesson 1 and 2 songs. Although it is primarily in Bb maj, you will have noticed the modulations into C min and Eb maj. And the syncopation was not easy but you handled it well. You are playing at a fast tempo for Lesson 3. Did you feel relaxed doing it ? Or did you find that you could swing even better at a slightly slower tempo ?
I agree with Knotty that it doesn't matter if you are reading the notes in the chords. Your brain will still absorb the sounds fine. A chord exists in the context of a progression, and you will internalise the nice ii V I voicings in the JOI tunes.
Thanks custard, I just found froggy day much more enjoyable than anything so far. I mean I really fell in love with it, while listening to the CD. Not sure about the tempo, I think I probably play it according to how I feel at the time. I'll try slower perhaps and see if the swing is any different. I don't find the syncopation difficult.
I'll just keep going with voicings. What I notice is I'm not totally aware of what chord I'm playing on piano. Compared to guitar where the mental process is: "F7. OK, where's F? Not that F, use the other F. OK, found F. Now, F what?" ... and by the time I've got there I'm totally sure about what I'm playing.
>> If you'd had the patience to read through the thread, you probably know that the idea is to do a few lessons, up a 5 or so, before digging into other things.
I have not carefully read the whole thread, but just skimmed most of it and have now gone back to the start to read it all; in any event, I honestly do not know what you mean by "digging into other things" here. As I understand it, I am trying to just do what the text of JOI says to do as I understand it, and have some questions on details that are not clear to me from it.
Another question is that I see that there are a few (not many!) typos in the text, such as such as the 3rd line on page 23 of 1 JOI, which has a b6 instead of a 5th like the parallel passages. Is there an official "errata sheet" somewhere?
>> have some questions on details that are not clear to me from it. Ask away.
>>Another question is that I see that there are a few (not many!) typos in the text, such as such as the 3rd line on page 23 of 1 JOI, which has a b6 instead of a 5th like the parallel passages. Is there an official "errata sheet" somewhere? I found one or two in the books, but overall it seemed very accurate.
>> I honestly do not know what you mean by "digging into other things" here The lessons in JOI give you all you need to start feeling good about improv. By the time you've played and sung all the tunes from lesson 1 to 12, you can start other exercises not described in the books, such as composition and improvisation.
I've told myself that I will try and index this thread so it's easier to navigate for all. I haven't had much time to get to it.
>>I'll just keep going with voicings. What I notice is I'm not totally aware of what chord I'm playing on piano. Compared to guitar where the mental process is: "F7. OK, where's F? Not that F, use the other F. OK, found F. Now, F what?"
Ten, playing chords is very much about shapes to me. Also about sounds. So simply doing the voicings exercises as described in the book will help. Playing a variety of voicings along to the tunes will help you also.
It's really when you break things down to simple concepts that they register. That's why playing the tunes will help you with the composition, and composition will help you a lot with improv. A couple more weeks I think before compositions.
Ten How about writing the chord structure underneath the voicing ? So for the G7 you mentioned earlier, you could write 3 #5 7 b9. Or as Knotty said, chords are a lot about shapes and altered shapes. You could write down an alternative name for the chord, one that you might find easier for identifying the pattern. The G7 above can be heard as Fmin7 b5.
Hi 2 shlow You mentioned an error in the JOI Solo Pattern. If you are short of time, you can go straight onto Exercise 2 Jazz Hanon, bypassing the JOI Solo Pattern.
I'm on Lesson 24 and like Knotty, I think I've only come across one error.
I certainly agree that there are not lots of errors, but I noticed not just the b6 instead of 5 at page 23 of 1 JOI, but also a consistent error in the third voicings in Lessons 40, 41, and 42 where the 1 3 11 7 9 voicings are actually 1 3 5 7 9. While these errors are easy to spot at my beginner's level, I fear there may be errors I cannot see, especially in the Blues and Tunes, for which there is no objective standard. If others see few errors, too, I guess I should just not worry, though.
I still think it would be good for Dave Frank to put an errata list on his site.
In Lesson 1, unlike the others I have seen, the Blues is in Bb and the JOI Line seems to be in G minor, the relative minor of Bb. Is this oddity on purpose, or is Leaf Line in some sense to be seen as in Bb? (As I recall, the preface says that the Blues and Tunes in each lesson are in the same key.)
I also note that in Lesson 1 Leaf Line ends all 4 8 bar sections on the 5th of Gm, which is like some European folk music as used by Bartok. Is that at all common in jazz? I am used to songs ending on the tonic or 9th.
Hi 2Shlow and welcome to the JOI joint. I think the important point is to focus on playing the music and training your ear. I also used to overanalyze everything with my "classical" mindset but it didnt help me to become a better jazz player.
There are many success stories of people having been through this method and there are definitely "objectives standards" when it comes to jazz theory. I wouldnt spend to much time trying to find minor typing errors.
The Jazz tune immitates the chord changes of the famous standard Autumn Leaves. The origianl tune switches from Bb mayor to tis relative minor which explains wjhy the line is in Gmin. I guess the reason is the choice of the composer.
custard and knotty: I think what I'll do is write out my own lead sheets for these standards - no music, just words and chords. I'll type big, then pencil in the voicings, and try playing from that. I'm not overly worried about not instantly being able to come up with all voicings I want - but I do see working through this book as an opportunity to get all sorts of things done - getting to know the common standards, reading chords quickly on piano and guitar. So I'd rather do it as I go along.
2Shlow - Autumn Leaves is commonly played in Emin/G and Gmin/Bb. Also Bb is frequenly used in jazz, presumably for the horn's benefit. So there is no particular reason why Autumn Leaves shouldn't be found here in Gmin, though, like you, I'm more familiar with Emin.
With my proof-reader's hat on, I've also noticed some little mistakes in the book, though nothing I couldn't instantly work out. I'm happy to give Dave some feedback if there's to be a reprint/2nd edition.
>>While these errors are easy to spot at my beginner's level, I fear there may be errors I cannot see, especially in the Blues and Tunes, for which there is no objective standard. Honestly, I think it doesn't matter. You're right, the error on lesson 40 is obvious. I seem to remember an error in one of the tunes, too. But it doesn't matter. It's just not a big deal. What you're trying to get out of the tunes is to train your ear for how improvised jazz lines may sound like. If you look back in this thread, I've posted my own compositions for several of the tunes. They would be valid, other than not being as good as Dave's. Dave could come up with a new compositions on the spot. So see those tunes are samples. If you think a line would sound better another way, then that is your own preference, and that will come out sooner or later. Look at the phrasing, how lines respond to each other, etc...
Autumn Leaves, I like to play in Bb myself, but the realbook has is in G, so it's probably why it's often played in that key. In records, it's mostly in Bb.
Thank you to those who have responded to my questions. A further question:
In the sing with masters' solos exercise I find that a typical 3 minute recording has so much material to memorize that I am (at least at this stage of my studies) not really up to remembering the whole thing to sing along by heart (I tend to mix up rifs in different choruses). Perhaps the idea is that we take a chorus or two to learn as a mantra instead of a whole song recording (some recordings are LONG, such as 9:25 for So What on Kind of Blue!)? So meantime, I use Transcribe! to break the songs up into 1-chorus mp3s for study. Am I on the right track in that?
In the sing with masters' solos exercise I find that a typical 3 minute recording has so much material to memorize that I am (at least at this stage of my studies) not really up to remembering the whole thing to sing along by heart (I tend to mix up rifs in different choruses). Perhaps the idea is that we take a chorus or two to learn as a mantra instead of a whole song recording (some recordings are LONG, such as 9:25 for So What on Kind of Blue!)? So meantime, I use Transcribe! to break the songs up into 1-chorus mp3s for study. Am I on the right track in that?
Hi 2Shlow,
I did exactly as you suggested. So far, I found a 16-bar stretch or so, and concentrated on that. The last one, I took a longer stretch but didn't test myself with memorizing it clean, I just sang along with Transcribe.
Now I'm on Skid dat de dat. And I don't know what to do! Any suggestions?
I am a beginner myself and in Lesson 3, but I did already break up that 3:07 min song from Lesson 4 into 4 mp3 chunks: 0:44; 0:42; 0:43; and 0:50 to the end. Of course I cannot say if that worked for me yet, as I have not gotten to it. My hunch is that it may be better to work with whole choruses, and not shorter sections, but I could be wrong about that.
I hope we both can get feedback and advice from the more advanced people in the forum.
Hi. When singing with the master solos, you don't sing with the whole tune: only the solo from the master:)That will cut it way back. With some Lester young solos or Charlie Parker solos that are longer, it's fine to concentrate on one chorus at a time. So for the Louie solos, for example, you can sing the melody at the beginning if you like, but then only Louie's trumpet solo(s).
The banjo solos are a bit difficult to sing with...but you can't do it without smiling:)
I'm looking forward to sharing the recent Dick Hyman and upcoming Lennie Tristano master classes with you guys..
Thank you for your comments and suggestions, Dave!
I am sure that all are looking forward to your latest master classes. And speaking of the master classes, I found both yesterday and today I could not get the "Eric Dolphy master class with Dave Frank 6/4/10 06/04/10 05:12PM" at
to play (just a black rectangle in the middle of the screen with no button to click on to play it, and I tried in both FireFox and IE8. Has it been taken down, or is there some other problem?
Strange, as I just tried it again and no go. Maybe they are blocking to Israel? Some YouTube videos are not available here.
[later]
I just retried again and found that not only NONE of your videos plays from here, but other people's videos do not play either. I guess it may be another new ban on service to Israel.
I am happy you are using YouTube now, Dave! I did get to see the other 4 master classes on Upstream.TV; just missed Eric Dolphy. :-(
question: where do you guys get the louis armstrong tracks from? I am struggeling to get that here in south africa
Fortunaely, you can find them at YouTube, use FireFox and DownloadHelper to save the flv file for video (naturally a 1929 version has just photos, not a real video), play them directly in VLC or jetAudio Players, or generate mp3 from the flv file with the free video to audio converter from http://dvdvideosoft.com/ and then use Transcribe! to listen in any key at any speed you like. Many YouTube videos can also be downloaded as mp4, which can be watched and played with directly in Transcribe!
lololol so it's taken you no time to work out that Dave is the biggest joke artist ! When you are next overseas, check out the Eric Dolphy one for a laugh. The bird noises are pretty hilarious.
lololol so it's taken you no time to work out that Dave is the biggest joke artist ! When you are next overseas, check out the Eric Dolphy one for a laugh. The bird noises are pretty hilarious.
Thanks for the suggestion, but to tell the truth, I have not been outside Israel in over 28 years, and I hope I never go abroad again. There is no better place to be that I know of (Israel's bad press is not true!).
I really like Dave Frank's style of teaching in JOI, which seeks to greatly enrich the student's toolbox even from the very start. For example, I noted with pleasure that JOI actually uses root position and second inversion left-hand voicings instead of ignoring them as most books do (indeed why not use all the voicings that are possible and tasteful?).
Why is it that most jazz books seem to ignore those left-hand voicings that are not built up from either the 3rd or 7th at the bottom?
It was surprising to find 4th inversions, which JOI also uses, as at 1 JOI page 77 in the second to the last line, where the voicings have a b9th on the bottom followed by the 9th. Has anybody discovered any 5th or 6th inversions in JOI?
Another point is that Dave is not afraid of jumping around a bit, whereas others seem to be obsessed with minimal left-hand movement. For example, in Lesson 2's The Joy of C (in C minor, of course) in the 4th and 8th lines there are jumps from c down to g and then up to d flat, when smooth movement from c to b to d flat would be expected for minimal movement.
The question is why do other teachers/books teach against such "needless" movement that actually sounds good? Perhaps only Dave Frank himself knows.
Thank you very much for such an in-depth analysis of a book series I dashed off in an afternoon. (Not haha.) Sometimes something that is a cool new discovery (like rootless voicings) becomes a "new rule" after awhile. I like to tell folks that the ear is the final decision-maker when it come to music. We have inherited a huge legacy of music theory, piano/jazz theory, etc., we can use it all:)
It's great to study lots of possibilities (like the chord lists)and then make personal choices as to what you want to hear based on how the sounds strike you. This is how you develop your own sound/style, which is the point of playing jazz.
This recalls the famous review of one of Mahler's symphony:"Mahler's music is alot better than it sounds".
Most books have to be interesting to read for people that will not play them. For example, the Levine book is great to read. Metaphor for the musicians is a favorite of mine, and a great book to read also.
But reading the book simply won't teach you how to play. It's mostly theory. You're left with tons of tips on how to use exotic scales, but how often are you taught the slow process of learning how to play?
I'm not sure Dave still has slots for students, or if you know that he teaches via Skype, but the idea is that if you study with a great teacher, be it Dave or another, you probably won't be skipping the foundation. That's what the joi is about. Learning the foundation you need to be able to later play anything. Dave will teach you Bill Evans stylings if that's what you like, McKenna, or Bud Powell, or McCoy. But regardless, the foundation's gotta be there. That involves good technique and solid time and flow.
As for inversions, I've never really looked at them like that. To me, chords can be arranged in just about any way. It's one of those interesting things because you learn some, and then if you stick to them long enough they become part of your tool box. Chords don't always have to fall under the inversion thing either, for example: E A D G works good as a Cmaj7 voicing. In places, he'll use very rich voicing, like F G A C E for an Fmaj7. Sometimes, that really sounds great.
If you play the same thing the same way for too long, it will get boring. At the same time, the listener likes the hear the same thing multiple time. So you gotta find a right balance.
Notice how Dave mostly puts the chords as 'block', meaning they fall on beat 1 or 3 and last 2 or 4 measures? I think this is a way to focus on one thing at a time.
It's good to hear you're enjoying the method. I've been enjoying it a great deal, too.
Thank you very much for such an in-depth analysis of a book series I dashed off in an afternoon. (Not haha.)
DF
If you just let the juices flow one afternoon, then that was surely after decades of preparations, and like your improvs, it came off well. Some of the best writing is not necessarily done in a slow painful way but in a fast joyful way, especially in music.
Whether done in 4 years or an afternoon, it is certainly fine music, while still approachable by us beginners.
But I think I found another small mistake in Lesson 3's "A Froggy Day", which is notated in the final chord with an f in the left hand, but it is not actually sounded on the recording where there is a pure all 4ths chord with an f in the right hand only (held over from the previous bar).
I'm interested in how the book got written. Dave, I imagine it came straight out of teaching, is that right? Couldn't find the book you wanted for students?
Originally Posted By: 2Shlow
But I think I found another small mistake in Lesson 3's "A Froggy Day", which is notated in the final chord with an f in the left hand, but it is not actually sounded on the recording where there is a pure all 4ths chord with an f in the right hand only (held over from the previous bar).
Personally I was a bit more perplexed by the B natural in this chord.
that B natural in Foggy Day is a zinger of a typo, incredible!
The books came out of the opportunity to travel all over the marble, and seeing what aspiring improvisers needed, which for the most part, was a coherent, step-by-step approach to act as a bridge between the typical classical training and improv. The other popular jazz piano books were great, but I thought a more limited, but complete series of lessons geared to developing certain foundation skills would be useful.
I was friends in Boston with my co-author John Amaral, who had a relationship with Hal Leonard, and John who asked me if I'd like to develop the book concept. 4 years and 40 lbs. later it was done. The books put in writing the method of teaching I had been doing for a long time, some of which (specifically the chord lists and singing master solos) included some of the material Lennie gave me.
Interesting to know the history. There is always in element of trust. As a learner, I don't expect results to be immediate. So I need to bring some patience to the equation.
Originally Posted By: davefrank
thumbs, maybe you should write an arrangement of " I fall in love too easily"
I have a question about skid dat de dat. I've been listening to this as and when, and have just sat down with Transcribe and was about to find a section and learn it. I'm trying to work out the structure of the thing. Seems to be divided into mostly 6 bar sections - two bars of solo, then 4 of ensemble. I've not come across this before - is it common, or is it just it's own thing?
Hi everyone For the last 2 weeks of my improv practice, I've been working on switching scales. What do you think of my attempt at C maj for 4 measures then A min for the next 4 measures ? It's at 84 bpm.
Thanks very much Dave for your feedback. You must be real looking forward to the grand opening of your new yoga-jazz place this weekend. Can't wait for your masterclass on Lennie Tristano.
Hi everyone For the last 2 weeks of my improv practice, I've been working on switching scales. What do you think of my attempt at C maj for 4 measures then A min for the next 4 measures ? It's at 84 bpm.
He has his own fake book ('Vanilla book') which is simpler and clearer than anything I've seen. In fact it's a lot like what I've been making myself. He also has lists of standards that modulate in certain ways, and a whole load of backing tracks.
That's very nice of you Ten ! I look forward to your treatment of Skid da de Dat. The song reminds me of a fun procession, I think the ensemble sounds wonderful.
That was a nice line you posted. You're getting a hang of it.
Where are you on everything? Lesson #, compositions, improv, etc...
Thanks Knots !
Improv Yesterday I did my improv practice with the B min7 b5/ E7/ A min6/ A min6 progression and it sounded much better. Today I will spend some more time working on this progression. Tomorrow I will go onto the F maj/ D min progressions.
Singing I've learnt 10 phrases of Bird's Perhaps. I'm enjoying it a lot.
Hanon I'm being severely challenged by Lesson 20 @ 144 bpm. The next recording I do for you will be at 152 bpm.
JOI Tunes Blues @ 88 bpm. The jazz tune Sky Line @ 76 bpm. I really like Dave's tune, do you remember the standard it's from ?
Bill Evans' composition I play Very Early Very Badly.
Arrangement For When I Fall in Love, I've done 3 sections now (A1, B, A2) and have C to go.
Extremely exciting news I have just booked my ticket for the Sonny Rollins 80th birthday concert !!!!! I am in row M 10 metres from the front.
I wish I was as dedicated as you are. 152 for these tough hanons is getting pretty fast, that's great. Sky Line is based on Blue Skies.
I'm happy that you'll get to see Sonny Rollins, I know he's your favorite. You're gonna have a blast.
Ten, The vanilla changes look good. My uncle used to make his own just like that. He'd be transcribing tunes all the time, even while laying on the beach. That was awesome.
In the first 3 lessons dominant 7th chords built up from the root are 3 voice chords, but the surrounding chords are usually 4 voice chords. Is there some special reason for this?
In lesson 3's A Froggy Day (Someday My Prince) the first line has the EbM7 voiced 7135, which fits smoothly between D7 voiced 137 and G7 voiced 3b67b9, but in the 5th line the EbM7 is voiced higher 1357, which makes for an awkward jump down to the G7 voiced 3b67b9 again. Why is the EbM7 not voiced the second time as in the first? I prefer the easier to play version, of course. :-D
I assume that you have some musical reason, but I do not hear it.
2Shlow, Sorry for cross posting, that's a good question, I'll look forward to the answer.
I wanted to say that the Solar video posted earlier got us a gig next week in a nearby embassy (they're all next to each other) for some sort of yearly event. That should be fun. Embassies ALWAYS have the best appetizers
Yellow Floridian shirt, or red Hawaian shirt? What will it be?
we're just going for variety, the musical axiom is that anything done too long the same way gets way gets boring. Dom7 chords are voiced with 3 notes often because the 3 and b7 are sufficient to establish the basic dom sound, and with 1 tension added it often is cool.
Sometimes a bit of a jump in the LH thumb creates a stronger sound..
I wanted to say that the Solar video posted earlier got us a gig next week in a nearby embassy (they're all next to each other) for some sort of yearly event. That should be fun. Embassies ALWAYS have the best appetizers
That's really exciting! I hope you enjoy it. And the appetizers.
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Yellow Floridian shirt, or red Hawaian shirt? What will it be?
Red. Either will suit your colouring. Red will make you appear more confident.
Congrats Knotty. The Solar vid was pro. So where do you get your shirt collection from ? I will need to wear my sunnies to watch you and Sonny Rollins. I would wear a color that represents the country of the Embassy. So a yellow shirt if it's Australia.
Sometimes a bit of a jump in the LH thumb creates a stronger sound..
That's interesting Dave. I agree and will try out in my improv practice today to highlight the shift in tonality between C maj and A min. Previously I was trying to create minimal movement in the LH thumb.
when you're improvising it is best to keep the minimal thumb movement thing happening, although you can do whatever you want to sometimes:)
Unknown to more than half the population, in the US and Singapore moving the thumb between chords more than one full step is punishable by 30 seconds in jail and the suspension of your bocci license.
hahahhh Dave, thanks for the warning. Tomorrow during my improv practice, I will go back to the minimal thumb movement, I don't wanna spend any time in jail
Unknown to more than half the population, in the US and Singapore moving the thumb between chords more than one full step is punishable by 30 seconds in jail and the suspension of your bocci license.
DF
What's the sentence for wantonly ending on a dominant chord? (I'm referring to Precipitation).
Did anyone else find Here's that rainy day a difficult tune to absorb? I'm nearly done with Precipitation, and will record soon. But I'd like to sing the standard along to the chords. I've been listening to the song for two weeks. That's normally enough. Have I just lost it?
As an aside, I've also been trying to learn Poisoning pigeons, and that's also stumping me.
Thank you very much Dave, Knotty and Ten. I love improvising even though it's the hardest thing about my practice every day. I spent 2.5 weeks on C maj/A min and am extremely comfortable with it now. I'm prepared to spend this long per each of the six maj/rel min. Can't wait to start on F maj/ D min today. Thanks for your help and support.
I had another go at Rainy Day. I can sing along with the recording I have. I can sing without the recording. What I can't do is transpose it into a different key, which is what's in the book.
I'll record lesson 4 and move on. Spent enough time on this one.
that solo singing sounded great Laura! some of those Louie rhythms are hard to nail exactly, he was a slippery player, but you did really well:)keep puttin your feeling into it!
Yeah Ten, that was wonderful. You're good at handling the Louis rhythms. Skid da de Dat was a fun song and it sounded like you had a fun time with it. What's the next song ?
Watch your d-6. You can simply use D F A B, or once in a while, move it higher to FABE. The E- sounds good with an A instead of the G also. You can try moving the A7 up once in a while to G Bb C# F, or G Bb C# E, or even both.
Try a few variety of inversions. For G-7, try this: A Bb D F, to C7 A Bb D E, or G Bb D E. Fmaj rooted is fine sometimes F A C E, or pop some color with F G A C E, or remove the F.
Anyway, pick one you like and stick to it for a while so you don't have to think about the LH too much. Just some options, all in the book.
Thanks for the comments on Skid scat. I admit I did a lot of work on this one. I associate the rhythm I hear with the running image on Transcribe of the different solos. Without that, I don't think I'd be able to do it. Having said that, I'm not sure Louis would be able to replicate things accurately either. He seems to make a principle of doing it different every time. He just finds lots of ways to make it different.
Originally Posted By: davefrank
I'm not sure what you mean about transposing Rainy Day into 12 keys, only need to do that with hanons and chord voicings..
No fear!
I mean I can't hold the tune in my head. Strange for me as I don't have perfect pitch. You know when you're about to sing 'For he's a jolly good...' and someone else starts a fraction before you, in a key different from what you were going to sing, so you just join in their key? That's what I can't do with this song. It's not a big deal. I've just been using these songs for practising guitar chords, and I'd quite like to feel I've got it down. It's just marginally more fun than the exercises in the guitar book.
Hanon 4 I found really tricky at first. I've not been practising as in the book, with a distinct sustain and challenge tempo. What I do is start slow, probably under 100, then with each key I move the metronome up a notch. It is a literal notch, as it's a mechanical one. I go as far as I can, or till I get fed up, or till someone in the house complains. Today I got to the point it fell apart HT, and I could only do hands separate. That was at 176.
Custard: next is cornet chop suey. I don't know it, nor Sugar (lesson 5). Jazz number is small.
Just researching Sugar before doing lesson 5 (Sweet and Low). I'm finding several Sugars. Can someone let me know which corresponds to lesson 5? Thanks. Also, if anyone can recommend an artist who sings just the simple song, I'd be really grateful.
Personally I don't know of a vocal version that does justice to Turrentine's composition. Maybe you could do one for us when you get up to Composition 5
Re Hanons, are you doing them with your LH and hands together ?
Watch your d-6. You can simply use D F A B, or once in a while, move it higher to FABE. The E- sounds good with an A instead of the G also. You can try moving the A7 up once in a while to G Bb C# F, or G Bb C# E, or even both.
Try a few variety of inversions. For G-7, try this: A Bb D F, to C7 A Bb D E, or G Bb D E. Fmaj rooted is fine sometimes F A C E, or pop some color with F G A C E, or remove the F.
Anyway, pick one you like and stick to it for a while so you don't have to think about the LH too much. Just some options, all in the book.
Hi Knotty and Dave Many thanks for your prompt and very helpful feedback. I hope you like this one better ?
Cus, Sounds great. Keep to this exact pattern and fingering for the whole time you're digesting the improv in that key. By the end of the week, that particular progression / voicing will be yours.
Some news: more gigs lining up. Just played a gig at a restaurant in DC last Wednesday. Piano + guitar. Challenging for someone not used to playing bass lines, but the owner didn't kick us out (it did look pretty mean though ) Next week, 2 lined up already, one in another bar on Wed., and the embassy gig on Thursday. Got me some pretty business cards, setting up a web site now, I'm gonna keep the momentum going if I can.
Precipitation sounded terrific. You're locking in nice to that met on 2 & 4. The 1/4 triplets sounded really good. Check out the triplet patter in bar 7 or so. From what I recall, Dave wrote it down one way, but played it another. Play it how he plays it rather than how it's written. It's more idiomatic that way. I see this notation also everywhere in the omnibook. So long as you know how to make it sound, I think the notation is fine, but do listen to the track.
Otherwise, it's really really good, better than I've ever played it, anyway
Re: Hanon. 176 HT, again, is really really good. Again, faster than I've ever played it. You can play that speed in all keys? Seems like JOI is unleashing a great deal of technique and knowledge that you've accumulated over the years. In a few months, when you start improvising, you will see all those pieces come together beautifully. Good stuff..
Thanks cus, that's helpful. Now I know it has nothing to do with Sugar (Sugar, I call my baby sugar) in my fakebook, nor Sugar foot stomp, nor is it the Sugar by Pinkard.
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Personally I don't know of a vocal version that does justice to Turrentine's composition. Maybe you could do one for us when you get up to Composition 5
Indeed. Or I could just do my own vocal rendition. Maybe I'll take it to Xfactor?
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Re Hanons, are you doing them with your LH and hands together ?
Yes, I figure doing HT saves me time. I'm not pushing my LH.
Knotty - It's great you're getting gigs. There can be no higher compliment. It's probably got a lot to do with word of mouth - getting yourselves on the circuit. No doubt a website will be helpful.
Thanks for the encouragement Knotty. Thanks for pointing out that rhythmic thing. He plays them quaver-semi-semi instead of triplets. Noted.
I'm looking forward to being unleashed!
I can't honestly say if I can do that Hanon in all keys at that tempo, haven't tried. I just play whatever key comes next (according to the pattern of the day) and keep going a bit faster. Tbh, I try not to think too much about the speed. I'm concentrating more on the key. It helps having a mechanical metronome, so I'm not really aware what speed it is till I check. But I have to really focus on what key I'm in. It's become a bit like a meditative state, tbh.
So tell me, what is this omnibook? I do have a birthday coming up, so I'll get to put in requests. So far I'm hankering after Bert Ligon's book on linear harmony - have been for a long time. I think there's enough in JOI to keep me going for a good year or so.
The omnibook is a collection of Charlie Parker transcribed solos. It's great for learning the vocabulary, and for technique, too.
OK. It can wait. Forgive me, Charlie.
Now, I have a question on minor chord voicings. I was surprised in lesson 4 that Cmin is voiced B natural, C, Eb and G (7135). I thought it was just a typo and was supposed to be a Bb. But then, lesson 5, Emin has a D# in it. Lesson 6 also has the minor major. Page 31, however, voices minor chords with a minor 7th.
So now I am confused.
In the tunes, the minor chords have been of the normal variety, as far as I could see.
>> OK. It can wait. Forgive me, Charlie. I started that book after lesson 52. As a replacement for the hanon. So you have time. The Joi it self should really keep you busy with few other books. At some point, you could get a simple Bill Evans book, something that fits your level. To play beautiful arrangements and prepare for that exercise. But again, probably something you would start towards the end of volume 2. I'm not exactly sure when Dave had me arrange tunes.
The Cm has multiple functions. When it's the 2 in a 2 5 I, the 7 would be minor. When it's the minor i of a minor 2 V 5, then a modern way to play it is as a C-6. The C-6 has a 6 in it, but also a major 7. The chord before that would be a G7, which also has a B natural.
Often in books, you'll either see C-7 or C-6 for the same tune. When you see C-7, ask yourself what role it plays. In "There will never be another you", which is in book 1, you have d-7b5 G7 C-7. You should replace that and play C-6 instead, using a harmonic minor scale rather than whatever you might have thought.
For now, just get used to it, notice it. When you start the improv (lesson 15 or so), you ll start applying this stuff.
The Cm has multiple functions. When it's the 2 in a 2 5 I, the 7 would be minor. When it's the minor i of a minor 2 V 5, then a modern way to play it is as a C-6. The C-6 has a 6 in it, but also a major 7. The chord before that would be a G7, which also has a B natural.
In "There will never be another you", which is in book 1, you have d-7b5 G7 C-7. You should replace that and play C-6 instead, using a harmonic minor scale rather than whatever you might have thought.
For now, just get used to it, notice it. When you start the improv (lesson 15 or so), you ll start applying this stuff.
Hi Knots Your whole explanation was so cool that I wrote it out, as my printer doesn't work at the moment. Yesterday during my improv practice, when I was exploring nice arps to use, I found that the D min blues Ab C F G was a nice alternative to the D harm min.
I wanted to say that we went to play a very nice and elegant crowd last night at the embassy. The audience was very receptive, we got complimented throughout the nights, got requests, were asked for business cards and encores, and were told that more events in these upscale locations would be taking place, and the right people got our info. It was a lot of fun. The acoustic was pretty difficult in a circular room with huge ceilings, french doors all around and loud conversations, but we all managed to hear ourselves pretty well.
So there, about 2 years ago Dave said to me "you gonna be a monster". Now I know what he meant. I'm unstoppable ;-)
You deserve it Knots. All your effort is paying off. And you know so many songs that you were able to handle the requests. What a nice room, and they provided you with a grand. All the drinks and food on the piano in the noisy room reminds me of the Count Basie segment on the Ken Burns DVD.
I'm working on lesson 5 now: sweet and low, from Sugar. As I didn't know the tune, and I don't have any printed version, can someone listen to this please? I've taken the tune as I hear it and put it over the chords from lesson 5. There is just one bar where I left out the chord as I didn't think it worked.
I am really excited because I've booked some guitar lessons with this wonderful man who just happens to live close. I had been banging my head off a brick wall with something, posted on a jazz guitar forum, and was referred to some youtube lessons, which were really helpful. From the man's accent, I thought he could be local. Turns out he is. So I'm going to take lessons! Maybe one day I'll be able to play it!
Seems like you got it. Check out this version, which has to be more or less the original: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk5Zv6aW1Lg There's a 16th triplet going on. It's also written as such in the real book.
Which Tatum version of Tenderly is it that we listened to last Sunday? I've been digging around and each one he plays is totally different. I've never heard anyone play the same tune over and over again with such variety...
Hi Ten AL is perfect for your voice. That's great about your guitar lessons. You will love singing out Charlie Christian's chord shapes.
I admit, I hadn't heard of him. I have much to learn...
I managed to scrape some time to record. I find it valuable to record and 'complete' a lesson, but some of this is quite excruciating to listen to, so please, no one is to feel obliged!
Hanon 5. http://www.box.net/shared/mvjol9ovoh I thought it would be interesting to listen to what I do at different speeds. I deleted random bits to make it marginally less boring to listen to. If anyone wants the full 1o minutes, just shout! I start off at about 100 and finish up at about 180, but there's hardly any swing there.
One thing I noticed, going through this pretty much as directed in the book, is that the further I go, the less keen I am so sing while playing. I don't mind singing afterward, as an exercise. But when I feel like my playing is worth listening to, I don't want to spoil it with my voice.
How's everyone else doing?
Happy passover everyone! Hoping the Angel of Death passes right over!
>> I realised I kept pushing the metronome That's good, that's what you gotta do. Keep pushing it a click once in a while. That's how you push the limit.
>> When I play, I want a drummer. Get a drumset. Drummers follow
Hey Knotty I just played Art Tatum's Tenderly on you-tube as I didn't know it. It sounds very very difficult. What are you working on ?
Hi Ten The first time I had heard of Charlie Christian was on the Ken Burns DVD. One of the most enjoyable and helpful things about the solos that you are singing in JOI, is that these solos take you through the different jazz eras.
>> Hey Knotty I just played Art Tatum's Tenderly on you-tube as I didn't know it. It sounds very very difficult. What are you working on ?
Well, I was working on an arrangement of Tenderly. And then I heard Tatum play it. It's difficult in every possible level. Maybe I can steal of reharm or two...
Actually, there is one upstairs. It belongs to my son. But the piano is in the living room. It's not impossible to lug the drums downstairs, but it's a hassle, and would take a lot of arranging. I would still need a drummer. Maybe I'll look for one when I have something decent by way of improvising to contribute. I can't ask a drummer to get excited about a mere 12 bars.
My husband already has to accept that he shares the living room with a piano, 4 guitars 2 amps and a music stand. I think a drumset would about send him over the edge.
Completing 5 lessons out of 26 feels like a bit of a milestone. I thought rather than plough on with lesson 6 I'd take a week to revisit the previous ones. Maybe write something for Autumn leaves. Not to mention the guitar practice.
Custard, that looks like an interesting documentary. I might put it on my DVD rental list.
Unless you can provide a solid bass lines, drummers struggle without a bass player. My drum set is downstairs and I move it in the living room twice a week. It takes a few minutes. Also depending on the set, the cymbals, the player and the piano, it may totally overpower the piano, perhaps you're already using towels and such.
So I'd say wait until you're comfortable soloing on a few easy tunes, then get both bass and drums at the same time. Maybe a guitarist, they can provide a lot of support if they play well enough.
About the joi lessons, I would move on to lesson 6. However, when you have time, you should play or sing the earlier tunes. Wait until lesson 13 or so before you start the composition on autumn leaves. It will pay off better that way. At the pace you're moving at, it's about a couple of months.
Hey Ten That's great that you're thinking about having a band. How's your birthday list ? "Jazz. A Film by Ken Burns" would be nice to add to your list. I doubt you can rent the 10 part series. I watched it last year and I plan to watch it again this year. It's narrated by Wynton Marsalis which is great but obviously has Wynton's biases. Too much time on Dave Brubeck, as talented and lovely as Dave Brubeck is. And no time on Bill Evans except for a passing comment.
About the joi lessons, I would move on to lesson 6. However, when you have time, you should play or sing the earlier tunes. Wait until lesson 13 or so before you start the composition on autumn leaves. It will pay off better that way. At the pace you're moving at, it's about a couple of months.
I believe that's when Dave thinks people are ready to move on to that step. I think that's more or less when I started. After a dozen or so tunes, you start compositions, after a dozen compositions, you start improv. After that, you start arranging. That's more or less the road ahead.
Hey Ten That's great that you're thinking about having a band. How's your birthday list ? "Jazz. A Film by Ken Burns" would be nice to add to your list. I doubt you can rent the 10 part series. I watched it last year and I plan to watch it again this year. It's narrated by Wynton Marsalis which is great but obviously has Wynton's biases. Too much time on Dave Brubeck, as talented and lovely as Dave Brubeck is. And no time on Bill Evans except for a passing comment.
Hi Custard,
I just added it to the rental list. They will come one at a time, we've done this before. The reviews say it focusses just on the bebop era - and Dave Brubeck. Fine, I'll finish knowing more than I did before.
For my birthday I'm getting guitar lessons and I'm asking for connecting linear harmony by Bert Ligon - this has been on my list for ages. Any more and I'll need to remortgage the house.
Unless you can provide a solid bass lines, drummers struggle without a bass player. My drum set is downstairs and I move it in the living room twice a week. It takes a few minutes. Also depending on the set, the cymbals, the player and the piano, it may totally overpower the piano, perhaps you're already using towels and such.
So I'd say wait until you're comfortable soloing on a few easy tunes, then get both bass and drums at the same time. Maybe a guitarist, they can provide a lot of support if they play well enough.
That's interesting. I'm certainly not ready for the trio. But for the future, if there's to be a bassist we could probably squeeze him in the kitchen and communicate by webcam. And if the drums are louder than the piano, then I'll need to rent a hotel room for my husband for a few hours. Still, it'll be worth it. There are quite a few embassies in Edinburgh...
>> That's interesting. I'm certainly not ready for the trio. But for the future, if there's to be a bassist we could probably squeeze him in the kitchen and communicate by webcam. And if the drums are louder than the piano, then I'll need to rent a hotel room for my husband for a few hours. Still, it'll be worth it. There are quite a few embassies in Edinburgh...
Haha
>> You got any more gigs booked? one in a couple of weeks. Won't be quite as exciting, but we'll see. I want more embassies !
Thanks Ten ! I am getting through these progressions quicker. I spent nearly 3 weeks on the C maj_A min one, and less than 2 weeks on this F maj_D min one.
That's really good! How many keys have you done of the minor progressions? It's a good idea to do all 12, but you don't have to spend 3 weeks on each. Whatever you like, I guess. These little 2-5 are going to come in many many tunes, but some keys much less than others.
Also, record a few more measures, maybe go through the progression 3 times or so ...
The improv is perfect.
>>Knotty - I suppose they can't all be embassies! Bring your own ferrero roche... You know that commercial? Feels like a long time ago! Well, there are many around here, I just need to get them, and then we could be very busy ...
great improv. I liked the feel,the LH chords, and the chromatics in the RH line. Ye be swingin sister.
IMHO, you can do 6 keys of this before moving to the next one, and spend one week most on each key. You can tackle 2 keys/week easy if you like:) Cool to move along!
DF
PS -you can also go just as fast as you want to y'know remember - don't B flat, B sharp, and always B natural
Thanks Ten ! I am getting through these progressions quicker. I spent nearly 3 weeks on the C maj_A min one, and less than 2 weeks on this F maj_D min one.
mmm. I'm getting the urge to get through the lessons quicker.
Hi Knotty and Dave Thank you so much for your help and continuing encouragement. I've only learnt 2 minor keys: A min and D min, and I can't wait to get onto the Bb maj_G min progression. I'm feeling I should go slow and deep on the Bb maj_G min one (like one and a half weeks) given it is so common in tunes. But yes I know I do spend a long time on things, and I should hurry up so that I can get onto tunes.
great improv. I liked the feel,the LH chords, and the chromatics in the RH line. Ye be swingin sister.
IMHO, you can do 6 keys of this before moving to the next one, and spend one week most on each key. You can tackle 2 keys/week easy if you like:) Cool to move along!
DF
PS -you can also go just as fast as you want to y'know remember - don't B flat, B sharp, and always B natural
Hi Dave
Yeah, it felt good doing the chromatic. Like you said in your Charlie Parker masterclass, chromatics provide a further level of granularity. And studying your JOI tunes at your 120 bpm and then slowing down in Transcribe to approximate my 84 bpm speed, have really helped my feel.
I put in the Bb as I used the D harm min. Do you prefer that I use another scale ?
the doc doesn't show for some reason, but I didn't mean to change the b5 of the a-. That should stay an Eb. So go back to the original voicing you had on A-b5. Eb G A C. That was good.
I meant just for the G-. In the original word doc, you had printed Eb. At least, that's how I read the doc.
Sorry Knotty, it must seem like my questions never end.
So are you OK with the arp not matching the scale ? For example, for the G min 6 chord where the arp might be E min7 b5 (E G Bb D), the arp uses an E nat. However the G harm min has an Eb.
I guess you could. The M7 sounds a lot more tense than the 6 to me. Using both the M7 and the 6 is even more tense. But it still sounds good to me. When you run the arpeggios for practicing, the point is to really take in the changes, and going over 1 3 5 7 is very useful.
I'm working on lesson 5 now: sweet and low, from Sugar. As I didn't know the tune, and I don't have any printed version, can someone listen to this please? I've taken the tune as I hear it and put it over the chords from lesson 5. There is just one bar where I left out the chord as I didn't think it worked.
I guess you could. The M7 sounds a lot more tense than the 6 to me. Using both the M7 and the 6 is even more tense. But it still sounds good to me. When you run the arpeggios for practicing, the point is to really take in the changes, and going over 1 3 5 7 is very useful.
Thanks Knotty. I will play around with more voicings tomorrow, maybe spread out the maj 7 and the 6, so the chord sounds less tense.
I have a question about Louis Armstrong. I understand he had a right to sing the blues. I understand he had a right to feel low down. But what on earth made him think he could hang around down by the river? That was just a step too far.
Edit: OK, now a serious question. I've moved on to lesson 7. Can someone please help me make sense of dominants. I don't need absolute rules that are always followed. Just some kind of sense.
I understand b9 is often the V of the minor. Apart from that I get terribly confused.
>> That was just a step too far. Yeah, a little too far out
>>Edit: OK, now a serious question. I've moved on to lesson 7. Can someone please help me make sense of dominants. I don't need absolute rules that are always followed. Just some kind of sense. I understand b9 is often the V of the minor. Apart from that I get terribly confused.
Not voicings so much as the alterations. Sharpened 9th, flattened 9th. Ditto for 13th.
I completely get that a dominant chord often has the 13th instead of the 5th. That makes perfect sense to me. What I'm looking for is some way to understand why and where the 9th and/or 13th are altered.
The other thing that confuses me - though I try not to let it - is that the b13 is sometimes called a #5. Unless there's some subtle difference, I just see them as two different names for the same thing - or should I pay closer attention?
I'm not sure I understand the question. In a minor ii-V-I, the 9 of the V is often flat. The natural 9 would not sound very good. But the thing is you can really alter those chords a lot. Much depends on where your melody is going. So you'll see leadsheets with +5 or #9, or #11, that's usually because the melody note is there. Take Someday my Prince. It has G7+, that's because the #5, an Eb, is the melody. Getting into stuff too advanced for me, when you alter chords with tri-tone subs, it lends itself to using nice diminished scales and patterns. For example, over a G7alt chord, you could look into G7 dim, or Ab melodic minor(1/2 step above) or D melodic minor (5th).
The other thing is that dominant 7th substitute nicely for other dominant 7th a tritone away. So having Eb7 D7 to Db7 can be seen as Eb7 D7 G7. If you were to play the descending root, then G7 would have an altered 13 in it. Move this to a b9, you got yourself a nice altered G7, which would lead nicely to a C-6, for example.
I'm glad you're not asking for rules, because I don't really know what they are. But there's a bit of magic happening when you get to make certain tones move from one to another. Watch the Bill Evans masterclass and see how Bill would treat simple progression and add lots of colors and movement. It's really interesting.
That's the beauty of solo piano, you can really move to weird places, and somehow make it work.
Check out some Art Tatum if you got it. It's totally out of this world. The stuff he uses is really out there. Very advanced and whacked out re-harm. I don't get it...
I'm starting lesson 7 which has the dominant voicings. There is no theory, no explanation - just play then and absorb, transpose. This is fine and good. But... But as I play them I like to think to myself, 'this is such-and-such-a chord, I might use it in this situation'. And there are just so many alterations, it seems like a bit of a jungle.
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In a minor ii-V-I, the 9 of the V is often flat. The natural 9 would not sound very good.
Yes. Also the 13 is often flat, as this is the 3rd of the key I'm in, and for a minor key that's flat. Or I suppose it might be written b9#5, but I'm not sure I've ever seen this.
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But the thing is you can really alter those chords a lot. Much depends on where your melody is going. So you'll see leadsheets with +5 or #9, or #11, that's usually because the melody note is there. Take Someday my Prince. It has G7+, that's because the #5, an Eb, is the melody.
Makes sense. I don't have Someday My Prince written out, but I see what you're saying.
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Getting into stuff too advanced for me, when you alter chords with tri-tone subs, it lends itself to using nice diminished scales and patterns. For example, over a G7alt chord, you could look into G7 dim, or Ab melodic minor(1/2 step above) or D melodic minor (5th).
Yes, too advanced for me too. When you say G7alt, do you mean a specific alteration, or just anything?
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The other thing is that dominant 7th substitute nicely for other dominant 7th a tritone away. So having Eb7 D7 to Db7 can be seen as Eb7 D7 G7. If you were to play the descending root, then G7 would have an altered 13 in it. Move this to a b9, you got yourself a nice altered G7, which would lead nicely to a C-6, for example.
Sorry, I don't get all of this. So supposing I play: Eb7: Eb G Bb Db Then D7: D F# A C Then a mystery chord: Db F Ab B Then my mystery chord is EITHER: a rootless G7 with a flattened 5th and a flattened 9th OR: a tritone sub for that G7 (aka a Db7). Just depends on how I want to see it.
So if I see b5b9 then it's probably a tritone sub?
Am I close?
'fraid I don't get there being a 13th in that G7.
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I'm glad you're not asking for rules, because I don't really know what they are. But there's a bit of magic happening when you get to make certain tones move from one to another. Watch the Bill Evans masterclass and see how Bill would treat simple progression and add lots of colors and movement. It's really interesting.
Yes, will get back to the masterclasses. I find they require a bit more time-at-a-stretch than I can normally manage.
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That's the beauty of solo piano, you can really move to weird places, and somehow make it work.
Check out some Art Tatum if you got it. It's totally out of this world. The stuff he uses is really out there. Very advanced and whacked out re-harm. I don't get it...
I do have some Art T. But as always listening alone doesn't really help. It all comes too fast.
>> Then a mystery chord: Db F Ab B that's a plain vanilla Db7
That's a also a G7 with a raised 5 and a b9. That's what I call G7alt. When you start altering 9 and 13, I might call that alt.
>> I'm starting lesson 7 which has the dominant voicings. There is no theory, no explanation - just play then and absorb, transpose. This is fine and good. But... But as I play them I like to think to myself, 'this is such-and-such-a chord, I might use it in this situation'. And there are just so many alterations, it seems like a bit of a jungle
I think the idea is to not master these voicings at all, but rather listen to each individual tones, and get used to the fact that many voicings work, especially on a dom 7. There are many rules for applying voicings. One is you want them to match the melody that you are playing. When you are playing a natural 9, the b9 on the LH doesn't work great, for example. Also, not all dom 7 is part of a major ii-5-I. For example in the blues. On the blues, #9 work great, because your blues scale's got the minor 3rd. Finally, you pick voicings that work and move nice together.
For now, no need to go deep into trying to understand it all, because it's a life long journey. Also, you don't have to do all exercises at the same pace. You may stay on Hanon for 2 weeks, but move 1 voicing lesson per week. That way, you'll finish the voicings quicker and you'll be ready to arrange. Once you start arranging, you kind of just spend a long time picking chords and playing with texture.
As you do the voicings, say the full chord name out loud. Play it with eyes open, then eyes closed, and visualize it on the keyboard. It's a sound and shape kinda thing.
>> I do have some Art T. But as always listening alone doesn't really help. It all comes too fast. When you start arranging, spend some time alone trying to find nice chord and playing with all sorts of alterations. Then take a break and put Tatum on. Your ears will be more open to the kind of wildness that's going on.
It's kind of like if you practice block chords a la garland, then you listen to Garland. It makes a lot more sense, and you actually hear the tension better, because you just played it.
As you do the voicings, say the full chord name out loud. Play it with eyes open, then eyes closed, and visualize it on the keyboard. It's a sound and shape kinda thing.
Yeah, I get it. And I do it, don't get me wrong. I just can't entirely silence that part of my brain that says 'what tf am I doing?'
Thanks for your answers, it was just the kind of thing I was looking for.
There are many rules for applying voicings. One is you want them to match the melody that you are playing.
Hi Knotty That's interesting, I've been listening to Art Tatum these last few days and thinking "Is his melody driving some of the voicing ?" When I'm learning to improvise, isn't my chord driving the melody ?
When you learn to improvise, you want to keep it simple. Rhythm and time is the most important thing. You can play your whole life, do nothing but play a major scale, and still be very good. If you play with great phrasing and rhythm.
So the approach that we choose is to give a simple scale that you can rely on, one that works against the particular progression you're working on.
I was listening to Barry Harris, who's a really funny educator (and one of the best jazz pianist ever). Particularly opinionated. Anyway he was talking about a dude who said something like "I've done every thing in the major scale, I need more". And Barry saying "He's a fool".
So I'm answering 10s question to the best of my ability, but it's more advanced concepts that we shouldn't really try to apply on the spot quite yet. That said, when you know you're going to practice improvising with a particular scale, choose a nice chord progression that works, and stick to it.
Hi Knotty I've been trying to improvise cool melodies as well as on rhythm and phrasing. Maybe I will now just concentrate on rhythm and phrasing. I've done all the major ii V I s. I've done 2 combination progressions (C maj/A min and F maj/ D min) . Right now I'm learning the tonality for Bb maj/G min doing your scales up, arps down etc exercises.
Unfortunately my right index finger is really sore from tennis, I'm seeing my coach on Friday to find out why. Yesterday I played through the pain but I think I really need to rest it.
>> I do have some Art T. But as always listening alone doesn't really help. It all comes too fast. It does come fast. I was thinking about it as I'm watching the new Dave Frank masterclass with Dick Hyman. Dave talked about the Swiss watch metaphor. What you're seeing is what you're supposed to be seeing, and that's a beautiful final product. In order to understand it deeper, you'd have to turn it around, and probably open it up.
But what if you just listened to Tatum, and then picked a 2 second passage, and try to dissect that. Just 2 seconds. Working on 2 seconds of Tatum, and I don't mean from a technical standpoint, would probably keep you busy for a week and you'd only scratch the surface.
However, that's a great way to steal ideas. Just take something tiny and try to get why it works. Could be a chord movement, or a device, a simple pattern. But I think the key is keeping it small. Noone can understand all of Tatum in a few simple listening. The guy was a genius and spent his entire life perfecting the art. Each time to start grasping 2 seconds of music, you hear the rest a little bit more clearly.
Later, I'll try and post 2 or 3 seconds of Tatum playing tenderly. And maybe we can make some sense out of it.
I only listened to 1/2 the masterclass this morning. I had to debate between practice and listening, so I did 1/2 and 1/2, but Dick said something along the line of having an ear for being able to pick up from recordings, and that not everyone had it, but he did. I remember Bill Evans saying something similar, that some people just had a facility for hearing things, but that he did not. And that to a certain extent, it forced him to work really hard at developing his style. Obviously he succeeded.
technically, I think this is totally doable. However, I would never come up with that stuff. But how great it works. Let's see if we can make sense of it:
and before you get me, I know, it's longer than 2 or 3 secs, it's more like 8, but you can just take the 1st or 2nd half if you want. I wanted to give a tiny bit of context. The tune is tenderly, and he's playing it in D.
Hi Knotty Thanks for selecting such a beautiful extract from Tenderly. I've chosen the RH melodic lines and tried to make some sense of it. I'm not a very good transcriber especially when it comes to: 1. interpreting rhythm or rubato 2. working out the notes in a chord.
Hey Cus, that looks really good to me. This stuff is really hard to write on paper, i dont' do it, mostly because I can't. Here's how I'd go about it.
On the first section, I hear these few points: - The melody is played very clearly, and correctly. Just with a few secs of the clip, you know it's tenderly. - He comes in on the first note with what sounds like a 2 hand - 3 notes slur to land on the D, and let it ring nice. That re-inforces the melody. - After the note is played, he lands the chord, which seems more or less like a plain Gb-7 - He does a little bit of movement to create interest, something fairly simple, going down the scale. - He surprises us by not landing on the b7 like we'd expect but going back up to the major 7, which creates major tension - He does not resolve that major 7, but moves on
This extract is from a Capitol Records recording, in case you are interested. The whole thing is pure genius.
Just so you know, I can do more than just hard rock...
Edit: I just downloaded the clip and put it into transcribe. May get a chance to look at it tomorrow. At first listening I have no idea of beats or bars, and can't see where the tune fits, but will try to get some notes down anyway. I'll do this before looking at custard's score.
Hey Cus, that looks really good to me. This stuff is really hard to write on paper, i dont' do it, mostly because I can't. Here's how I'd go about it.
On the first section, I hear these few points: - The melody is played very clearly, and correctly. Just with a few secs of the clip, you know it's tenderly. - He comes in on the first note with what sounds like a 2 hand - 3 notes slur to land on the D, and let it ring nice. That re-inforces the melody. - After the note is played, he lands the chord, which seems more or less like a plain Gb-7 - He does a little bit of movement to create interest, something fairly simple, going down the scale. - He surprises us by not landing on the b7 like we'd expect but going back up to the major 7, which creates major tension - He does not resolve that major 7, but moves on
This extract is from a Capitol Records recording, in case you are interested. The whole thing is pure genius.
Hey Knots Your ear is very discerning. Thanks for articulating your insights so clearly. It's amazing how the great Art could use such a simple device as a descending unaltered major scale so effectively, and in just the right place. Yes, Art highlighting that maj 7 certainly created a very interesting sound. As Dave said in the Frank Zappa masterclass, ending a phrase on the 7 could create a poignant, spiritual sound. The unresolved quality was really cool.
I think I forgot to mention that it was a very challenging but encouraging exercise for me. I had stopped transcribing at the beginning of this year as the Charlie Christian ones were taking me too much time, since I wasn't very good at it. But I feel I have improved a lot.
And I learnt so much from just a few seconds of Art.
I loved the section in the masterclass with Dick Hyman where he says "With Art, take what you can. Marvel at the rest of it".
For tenderly I've not yet looked at what other people came up with, I want to try it a little myself first.
Anyway, all comments welcome!
For transcribing - I've found actually *writing it ou*t is a really laborious process. A lot is working out rhythms, and sometimes I just can't be bothered. What I have learned from JOI is that (this is my opinion) 90% of the learning comes from listening and imitating. This in itself is time-consuming. But the writing is even more time consuming, and I'm not convinced that the extra learning gained from writing it out is worthwhile. Possibly the time would be better spent on another tune, or on hanons. Just my ha'penny worth.
>> For transcribing - I've found actually *writing it ou*t is a really laborious process. A lot is working out rhythms, and sometimes I just can't be bothered. What I have learned from JOI is that (this is my opinion) 90% of the learning comes from listening and imitating. This in itself is time-consuming. But the writing is even more time consuming, and I'm not convinced that the extra learning gained from writing it out is worthwhile. Possibly the time would be better spent on another tune, or on hanons. Just my ha'penny worth.
>> I had stopped transcribing at the beginning of this year as the Charlie Christian ones were taking me too much time, since I wasn't very good at it.
I also enjoyed Charlie Christian less than the others. But when you jump to Charlie Parker, I think you'll enjoy those a lot. Start with Now's the time or Moose the mooche maybe. Those are really good.
Singing Bird is one of my favorite parts of the day. I really liked Moose the Mooche, and have almost finished learning Perhaps. I think I loved Perhaps even more than Moose. On the weekend I look forward to moving onto Now's The Time, thanks for the suggestion.
Wow, you have been very productive. As Knotty said, Lesson 6 was perfect. I never played Lesson 6 anywhere as well or as fast as you.
Thanks for the thumbs up guys! I am finding the tunes get easier to learn fairly efficiently. Whether I'm getting used to the phrasing or the voicings, I don't know. I am aiming at 120, that seems to be quite a standard speed.
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For Tenderly, I really like your two slurs. What was the main thing you learnt from these few seconds of Art ?
I was asking myself the very same thing. So far, not a single darned thing. I can make no sense of the rhythm or the harmony. Was planning on having another look at it tonight.
What did you learn from it?
Edit: re dominant voicings. The voicing 3 7 #9 is the same as 7 3 13. As in Turvy line 3 bar 2 where G7 C7#9 could also be called G7 F#7.
I was asking myself the very same thing. So far, not a single darned thing. I can make no sense of the rhythm or the harmony. Was planning on having another look at it tonight.
What did you learn from it?
haha I love your honesty. I always find the rhythm the most difficult part to transcribe especially for solos played rubato.
I learnt a lot from it. The main thing I learnt was to include more scales in my improv. Before this exercise, I was afraid of using unaltered scales in my improvs in case I sounded boring. If Art Tatum can make the simplest D major descending scale sound good, then I should use scales more often in my improv.
The extract Knotty gave us has been stuck in my head for a couple of days now.
Having learnt so much from it, I decided to transcribe the next few seconds. Here's my attempt at transcribing it.
>> I was asking myself the very same thing. So far, not a single darned thing. I can make no sense of the rhythm or the harmony. Was planning on having another look at it tonight.
10, I wouldn't sweat it too much. It's also nowhere in the joi method to try and make sense of a sample of music such as the one I posted, so I really wouldn't force it.
Once you finish all the voicing lessons (which can be pretty fast), you can start arranging. That's a very difficult and interesting exercise. I use those sample as a way to guide me through the arranging. I also don't try to write things down on paper.
Perhaps once you start thinking in terms of arrangements, you will find value in this exercise.
>> . I think I loved Perhaps even more than Moose. Perhaps was one of my favorite tunes also. Can you believe it "just" a blues?
Bird's solo in Perhaps was so clever. Do you remember how it was in three 12-bars ? One of the reasons why it took me so long to learn was that I would sometimes accidentally sing the melody of A1 during A2 or A3.
Nice job on the Tatum bit. I liked that part because it's not very complicated, but it really caught my ear.
Thanks for reviewing Knotty. Now that my finger is feeling better I will spend the practice time getting back to improv. But if one day I have another injury, I would love you to give me another transcription exercise.
I can do everything now with that finger except RH Hanons.
>> Do you remember how it was in three 12-bars ? One of the reasons why it took me so long to learn was that I would sometimes accidentally sing the melody of A1 during A2 or A3.
Cus - glad to hear your finger is better. Take it easy.
re Topsy. I'm doing Turvy (lesson 7). Been trying to get my head around Topsy, which I didn't know before. The clearest recording I could get was Django Reinhardt. This is the head (sax solo) from that recording, freely done over the chords as written by Dave.
Just want to make sure I've got more or less the right tune.
re Tenderly. Now I've not been sweating, just hadn't had the time. I had another look at it this afternoon. This is what I've managed to work out with the help of Transcribe (not yet looked at analysis here from cus and knotty).
Once you finish all the voicing lessons (which can be pretty fast), you can start arranging. That's a very difficult and interesting exercise.
It would be the easiest thing in the world to take an hour and go through all the voicings in the book. I know the theory, mostly. But I think the learning does need to happen slow, because it is learning by absorbing, and by repetition. So my aim is to do a lesson in a week, and to stick to whole lessons rather than going ahead in a particular area. This gives me the incentive to deal with the whole package. I think I can keep up with a lesson a week.
The dominant voicings I'm on just now I find more confusing than any other, so I especially don't want to rush these. They remind me of Greek nouns. The minor 7ths may be another story.
I thought I would use the CD metronome as a backing, only I found it really offputting and started making loads of mistakes I don't normally make. So the recordings aren't perfect. Could practice these more, but feel like moving on.
Hi Ten The blues one sounded pretty perfect to me. The rhythm in the jazz one was almost perfect. You're learning the songs very quickly if you are spending one week per lesson.
That is great that you are learning the original standard. I'm sorry I don't know Topsy at all. I only learnt the original standards when I was composing and my last composition was for Lesson 6.
When I reached Lesson 19, I needed to break up the lessons and move on. The Hanons become more difficult and Bird is quite complex to sing.
Hi cus, when I get to lesson 19, I might do the same. I imagine the composition and improvisation also takes a lot of time. What is your rate of progress just now, roughly, for the different things?
Lesson 7 is perfect, as usual. Once in a while, it would be nice to sing the melodies from previous lessons.
>> It would be the easiest thing in the world to take an hour and go through all the voicings in the book. I know the theory, mostly. You'd want to find a happy medium between 52 weeks and 1 hour Arranging is where everything really happens. It's the ultimate exercise. It's where you put everything you've learned into music. But I guess 52 weeks isn't that bad :-)
I'm like Cus, parts of the lessons are harder than others. The hanons in particular get very tricky. And going fast in all keys took time. So often, I'd spend 2 weeks or less on the tunes and 3 weeks or more on the hanons. It's kind of up to you. I never did Left Hand Hanon. It's up to you to decide. If I did, it would be even slower.
I'm like Cus, parts of the lessons are harder than others. The hanons in particular get very tricky. And going fast in all keys took time. So often, I'd spend 2 weeks or less on the tunes and 3 weeks or more on the hanons. It's kind of up to you. I never did Left Hand Hanon. It's up to you to decide. If I did, it would be even slower.
The hanon of lesson 7 was easy, also the Lester young solo was the easiest assigned so far. I thought. I'm sure it all gets harder. To an extent, it's a question of how good you want to get at it. You spend as long as you want, the longer you spend the better you get. You can practice a hanon to 150. You can practice it to 120. Either way, just by doing it, you get better than you were before.
I've been watching the Ken Burns DVD. Fascinating stuff. I can see why people criticise it, but still, it's very interesting to hear, and a lot more palatable way to take in history than my usual wiki-surfing.
Hi Ten I'm pleased you like the DVD. For me it was a great way to learn about American history as well as the main players in jazz history. It was amazing that New Orleans was once the epitome of freedom yet almost overnight swung to the other end of the spectrum. And didn't Jelly Roll Morton have serious ego problems, I was laughing so hard.
Hi cus, when I get to lesson 19, I might do the same. I imagine the composition and improvisation also takes a lot of time. What is your rate of progress just now, roughly, for the different things?
I'm up to Lesson 20 for Hanons and singing, and Lesson 26 for tunes.
Hanons: I started Lesson 20 on 1 March and am still struggling @ 152. I do 15 min/day. As Knotty said, some keys are harder than others. Predominantly white keys and black keys are easy. For me, half white and half black keys are the most difficult - my E major always sucks
Good news: finger is totally cool now and I can practise the Hanons again.
Singing: ~ 10 min a day. I've spent more than 80 days learning Perhaps. I don't mind because it's a cool tune. I'm also learning a lot about the bebop vocab such as chromatics, encircling target notes.
That Lester Young one you just learnt, Foolin' Myself, was a favourite of mine.
JOI tunes: Blues tunes Easy ones ~ half a week. Hard ones ~ 3 weeks.
Jazz tunes ~ 3 weeks.
Improv ~ 45 min a day. I spend more than 2 weeks per progression. Don't take me as a guide, I came from an almost non-existent jazz base. I can see the day when you and Saiman overtake me
Own composition None except for the purposes of improv. For each progression I do: ascending lines descending lines ascending & descending lines
Bill Evans' composition I like to work on this about once a week. I'm learning Very Early.
Arrangement Again I like to work on this about once a week. I've done When I Fall in Love and am learning to play it @ 54 bpm.
Sorry to bust in on your conversation, but I just ran into this thread and was wondering if this book would be a good buy for me? I can read music, but am a new piano player that has little technique. I play in my church, just basic triad chords with root and fifth in the LH, but am interested in Jazz. Does this book go over technique at all? Would you recommend this book to me being that I am a beginner on the piano.
I actually played Alto sax for 8 years in Middle school and High school so I can read treble clef very well, but I can also get through the bass clef, albeit with some slower pace. Yeah, I'm interested in learning jazz piano and will eventually want to use improv while playing.
That's cool, no need to read bass clef for jazz IMO. Yes, I do recommend JOI. It's best to study JOI with a competent jazz teacher. Knotty and Saiman on this thread skype with Dave Frank the author. Or if you know a great jazz teacher in your area, your teacher should love the JOI course too as it is extremely systematic and comprehensive. Ten Left Thumbs and I are learning through this thread.
Sorry to bust in on your conversation, but I just ran into this thread and was wondering if this book would be a good buy for me? I can read music, but am a new piano player that has little technique. I play in my church, just basic triad chords with root and fifth in the LH, but am interested in Jazz. Does this book go over technique at all? Would you recommend this book to me being that I am a beginner on the piano.
To be honest, I think you're going to find it really hard at your level of playing to engage with the book as it was intended. I don't know if this is written down somewhere, but imo, you need to be at least an intermediate player to follow it. It's not utterly essential to read bass clef for jazz (as you may just read the chords in lead sheet format) but in this book, you need to learn the voicings which are written in bass clef, as well as playing the tunes which are written in both clefs. The tunes are not easy, technically and rhythmically, and a lot of hand independence is assumed. Plus, you need to know all 12 keys for the technical exercises.
Sorry to be offputting.
You might like to post in the Adult Beginners Forum for beginners learning jazz, as there are materials available. Keep playing at church, as you will find what you are doing is ultimately very helpful for jazz playing.
Ten We must be learning the voicings a different way. The clever thing about the JOI book is that it is written for both classical-background people, and jazz-background people. I learn the voicings by the numerical formula.
I also learn the chords in the tunes by numerical formula.
Joi is a method much more than it is a book. I started Joi after quite a bit of experience on piano already, so I don't know how a beginner would do.
I don't think you need much theory, but being able to find your notes and basic triads seems like a big plus. You don't need to read music that much at all, I never did. I just deciphered the sheets, and learned the tunes via the tracks that come on the CD.
Beginners tend to come to the piano wanting to learn everything at once. If that's your case, then you will find the JOI too slow. You'll need to "mature" in a way. But if you already have the patience and maturity, then JOI will be a great method.
Dave Frank is sometimes on this thread, perhaps he can tell us.
I also learn the chords in the tunes by numerical formula.
That's interesting, but in the tunes, the numerical formula is not written down, so I can only imagine you go through and work it out (by reading bass clef), or perhaps you voice them freely?
In the forward, Dave recommends the book for anyone with 1-2 years musical experience. The OP might well benefit by using it for jazz sax playing! But my honest opinion (and this is just my opinion) is that someone who describes themselves as a beginning player with very little technique will benefit more by learning piano generally, and coming back to this book in a few years. These are not easy beginners tunes.
I am, of course, happy to be proven wrong, and if that happens then I'll change my opinion!
I think you are probably right, perhaps our buddy can look at lesson 1 and then decide..he may benefit more from the breakthrough to improv video which is geared to teach players of all levels blues improv..
BTW, did a wild Grateful Dead master class the other night, if if came out well I will share it..
I'm up to Lesson 20 for Hanons and singing, and Lesson 26 for tunes.
Hanons: I started Lesson 20 on 1 March and am still struggling @ 152. I do 15 min/day. As Knotty said, some keys are harder than others. Predominantly white keys and black keys are easy. For me, half white and half black keys are the most difficult - my E major always sucks
Good news: finger is totally cool now and I can practise the Hanons again.
Singing: ~ 10 min a day. I've spent more than 80 days learning Perhaps. I don't mind because it's a cool tune. I'm also learning a lot about the bebop vocab such as chromatics, encircling target notes.
That Lester Young one you just learnt, Foolin' Myself, was a favourite of mine.
JOI tunes: Blues tunes Easy ones ~ half a week. Hard ones ~ 3 weeks.
Jazz tunes ~ 3 weeks.
Improv ~ 45 min a day. I spend more than 2 weeks per progression. Don't take me as a guide, I came from an almost non-existent jazz base. I can see the day when you and Saiman overtake me
Own composition None except for the purposes of improv. For each progression I do: ascending lines descending lines ascending & descending lines
Bill Evans' composition I like to work on this about once a week. I'm learning Very Early.
Arrangement Again I like to work on this about once a week. I've done When I Fall in Love and am learning to play it @ 54 bpm.
Hi custard, It's actually really useful to see a breakdown like this. I see (as I expected) that after a while, the book work pales into insignificance compared to the arranging, improvising, composition, and - what do you do with Bill Evans? analyse it, or learn to play? Some of his transcriptions look brutal.
Speaking of brutality, I just had a look at hanon 20. Tricky. Still, are not fed up with it by now? 152 sounds quite respectable to me. I mean, they are triplets.
Still, do watch your finger and go easy with it just now.
I don't mind E. I have more trouble with G. My favourite keys for the hanons are B, C# and F# - all blacks. Next favourite is C. G is my worst - lulls me into a false sense of security then throws an F# at me when I least expect it.
I'm a real opportunist for the scat singing. I find whatever time I can (which might be an hour once a week) and do what I can. Sometimes when I'm chauffeuring the kids, sometimes late at night I can't play, but I can get away with singing quietly.
Just started 'Gettin contrapuntal' which is fab - if not very contrapuntal.
I went and scanned the first lesson from the link that you posted and to me honest I believe I can get through it okay, I certainly sight read it no problem on sax, but piano is a different beast. I know all the scales major, minor and chromatic because of how long I played the sax. I just have to convert to piano and do those blasted thumb tucks when appropriate. I am somewhat comfortable in the 12 major scales on piano just need to work on the minors.
I do a lot of arpeggios when I play on stage in church so I can find my way around the board decently enough. I am a beginner at the piano when compared to how long I've been playing sax, but I am familiar with music and the basic theory behind it.
In short, I believe this could be a good method for me. If you all have enjoyed and benefited from it perhaps I would to.
remember, no need to do the solo pattern exercise, and feel free to break work on the hanons and voicings into digestible bits:) the real test is whether the tunes feel comfortable to you..
Looks like the transcribing part is going to be a long process for me. I still have around a month or so before I can start, haven't got a piano of my own to practice on just yet at the house. I've been going to the local college here and playing on some in a music room, but it's only during hours so no night playing.
You can start the scat singing without a piano, that's a good start in the right spirit! I never bothered writing the solos out, I just scat sang them. Your sax experience will help you here, because you'll be tuned into melody lines.
I can't imagine if I'd ever played sax, I'd be able to go through this book without dusting it off...
Hi KHen That's great you've already looked at Lesson 1. As Ten said, there's no need to transcribe. Just immerse yourself in Struttin'. The objective is for the master's solo to be infused into you.
but in the tunes, the numerical formula is not written down, so I can only imagine you go through and work it out (by reading bass clef), or perhaps you voice them freely?
Hi Ten This is my approach. Let's look at Lesson 7 Topsy (Turvy), Section C, last chord. The chord is called G7 b9 (b13).
1. It is a dominant chord so will contain a 3,b7 (B, F). 2. And the extensions are b9 and b6. (Ab, Eb).
3. How does this chord fit into the song? Besides it being the V passing chord, you can think of it as F min 7 b5. This fits into the F blues feel of the song.
But you are right, I also look at Dave's notes as it is pretty difficult to make a better voicing than the one he's chosen.
what do you do with Bill Evans? analyse it, or learn to play? Some of his transcriptions look brutal.
I predominantly use Andy LaVerne's simplified arrangements. I wouldn't have been able to learn Very Early just from the Real Book.
Yes I do analyse Bill Evans. A lot of it is about shapes. And I try work out the key centres.
The only transcription I did was A Time for Love Chorus 1. Yup it was brutal as it was extremely profound. Fortunately Dave Frank did the analysis for us in his Bill Evans masterclass.
Speaking of brutality, I just had a look at hanon 20. Tricky. Still, are not fed up with it by now? 152 sounds quite respectable to me. I mean, they are triplets.
Still, do watch your finger and go easy with it just now.
I don't mind E. I have more trouble with G. My favourite keys for the hanons are B, C# and F# - all blacks. Next favourite is C. G is my worst - lulls me into a false sense of security then throws an F# at me when I least expect it.
Well I used to be over-emotional about my practice. A practice session was either kool "I can't believe I did 3 keys today" or pathetic "4th finger didn't work today". But I'm trying to be more mature about practice now and just do it. Chris Bell in ABF Advanced posted an excellent Dave Liebman article about taking the emotion out of our practice.
Yes G maj is the most difficult one for me of the "easy" ones.
It is always so valuable to know what different approaches there might be - different from the one I see as 'obvious.' I am only working toward working out chords like you do, right now I see the music as a 'training wheels'.
The example you give is a good one. The same chord (F, Ab, B, Eb) is notated elsewhere in that tune as just simple G7 (e.g. bar 2). Only in that one place does it get its full title of G7b9(b13), to distinguish it from the G9(13) just before it. So if I wasn't reading the music, I wouldn't know that.
Of course, there's no point getting too hung up about a particular way of voicing things. On guitar I don't worry about which is the Dmin6 and which is the Dmin7 - I just play the one I know how to play and it doesn't sound too bad. Flattened 9ths and sharpened 9ths can go take a hike.
I imagine if Dave had got out of bed the other side, these voicings would have been different anyway.
But they do sound cool.
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Hi Ten This is my approach. Let's look at Lesson 7 Topsy (Turvy), Section C, last chord. The chord is called G7 b9 (b13).
1. It is a dominant chord so will contain a 3,b7 (B, F). 2. And the extensions are b9 and b6. (Ab, Eb).
3. How does this chord fit into the song? Besides it being the V passing chord, you can think of it as F min 7 b5. This fits into the F blues feel of the song.
But you are right, I also look at Dave's notes as it is pretty difficult to make a better voicing than the one he's chosen.
Okay, Just printed out the first lesson and will give it a go later on today, I'll let you know how it goes. Was wondering if I should get another book to complement JOI maybe..
Joi is enough. You will not be able to do 2 methods at once. This one should take you all your practice time.
If you really want to get another book, I would get theory books. Mark Levine's Jazz Piano is a great reference book, well written, with tons of great pictures, and overall good stuff.
Metaphors for the musicians is another book I really like.
But Joi will cover all the practice you need, and I don't think you should also start practicing from those books, even those that I recommend. Reading them can't hurt, and at least, you'll have a solid understanding of chords and scales.
One thing you might want to consider, if that is of interest to you, is Sight Reading. I happen to think that sight reading is worth a lot. You can find great methods that will take 15 mins a day and will increase your sight reading abilities.
I have heard wonderful things about both books. If I have dropped sufficient hints and earned sufficient brownie points, then I'll be getting the linear harmony one soon. Birthday present. If/when you get it I'll be glad to share experiences with you as we go. If money and space weren't issues, I'd get both, but I have this thing about gaining some benefit from one things before proceeding to the next.
As for whether JOI is sufficiently sufficient, that's really for you to decide. I was doing other things before I started, so I keep doing them.
Another really handy thing is a fake book of some sort.
Edit: Just read knotty's post above - we posted at the same time! Knotty, you may well be right, I'll wait and find out. Khen - you can be guaranteed a wide range of opinion here!
Well I used to be over-emotional about my practice. A practice session was either kool "I can't believe I did 3 keys today" or pathetic "4th finger didn't work today". But I'm trying to be more mature about practice now and just do it. Chris Bell in ABF Advanced posted an excellent Dave Liebman article about taking the emotion out of our practice.
Very interesting point. I suppose, at some point, somewhere along the way, I learned how to practice. Taking emotion out of it - it's an interesting way of putting it. There is a certain detachment, and no frustration or anger if I can't do it. I think of it a bit like, if a student can't do something, do I get upset? Course not, we just break it down. So why should I get upset if the same happens to me?
I have learned so much from teaching.
Maybe it's time I changed my sig.
I'd be interested in the link to the article, if you can still find it. I managed to miss that thread.
I didn't realize the books I linked were methods as well. I thought they were more theory based books to compliment JOI, not replace it. I think your right that I should stick with one method and if JOI is sufficient enough then I won't need the others.
I agree that Sight reading is important. Which 15 minute methods did you have in mind? It's hard to sight read for me on piano because I have to look down to see which keys my fingers are on and back up to start reading again. I can't just straight read off the page like I can on my Sax.
A lot of it may be just getting very very familiar with the key layout of the piano and knowing where the note is without having to look down and see where to put your fingers.
Yeah, reading for piano is tough. Like anything else, I think you want to take it in a manner that makes sense, so you can slowly add to your abilities. Moving the hand, playing sharps, reading rhythms, reading both staffs. All those things are hard.
I bought 2 series. One is called Four Star. I started that one at level 3. They can be found in many local music store, in particular music and arts. So take a look and see for yourself what you level is. Level 1 is very simple. Level 3 is still simple, but surprisingly tricky, so pay attention and choose carefully. It's a great series.
I also got one called 'Improve your sight reading.' From the same local store. About as good. Slightly different, but good too.
Of the 2, I'd pick 4 stars, but there are tons of those methods. They should encourage reading pieces that are no longer than 4 or so measures. You typically do one a day.
A lot of it may be just getting very very familiar with the key layout of the piano and knowing where the note is without having to look down and see where to put your fingers.
Everyone gets that. It just gets better with time. It's got to do with your sense of orientation - your sense of where your hands are in relation to the next note. It just gets better the more you do it.
Well I used to be over-emotional about my practice. A practice session was either kool "I can't believe I did 3 keys today" or pathetic "4th finger didn't work today". But I'm trying to be more mature about practice now and just do it. Chris Bell in ABF Advanced posted an excellent Dave Liebman article about taking the emotion out of our practice.
Very interesting point. I suppose, at some point, somewhere along the way, I learned how to practice. Taking emotion out of it - it's an interesting way of putting it. There is a certain detachment, and no frustration or anger if I can't do it. I think of it a bit like, if a student can't do something, do I get upset? Course not, we just break it down. So why should I get upset if the same happens to me?
I have learned so much from teaching.
Maybe it's time I changed my sig.
I'd be interested in the link to the article, if you can still find it. I managed to miss that thread.
Hi Ten Here is the article that Chris Bell posted.
I have a question about the CD. As I understand it, I should be able to hear the RH only, or the LH only for the tunes by adjusting the balance? I'm asking because I don't have a CD player where I can adjust balance, but have been trying on the computer. So far, I've managed to get it to play out of either the R or the L speakers, but it always plays the same thing. I just want to be sure I'm not expecting too much.
Edit: Got it to work. Trick is, you need to use VLC media player.
Okay I got to fool around with the first lesson for about 20 minutes the other day. I spent most my time with the Hanon. I did end up trying the JOI solo part. When trying the solo are you supposed to hit the chord in your left and and play off the sheets with your right, because all I saw for the solo was treble clef.? If so I've got to figure out what some of these chords are, like Dm7 and others. Is it a Dm triad only with the 7th so notes D,F,A then the 7th or am I completely off?
Awesome, I remember how cool it was when I hit my first note of JOI. I would spend my time on Exercise 3. Voicings rather than Ex 1. JOI solo pattern.
The JOI solo pattern is always a line in the jazz tune. So if you look at Leaf Line, it is the first line of the B section. You play the LH chords as written in the jazz tune (in conjunction with your RH).
The chord is called D7 which is D dominant 7. The formula is 1 3 (5) b7. So it's D F# (A) C. It's not a D minor chord, the D minor chord is 1 b3 (5) b7, so D F (A) C.
BTW, here is one of the major differences between your church chords and jazz chords. In your church music, it's mainly triads, using your example of D min, it's 1 b3 5. As you said it's D F A. But in jazz it's usually 4 notes which means you need to add either a 7 or a flat 7 (depending on whether it's a major, dominant or minor chord). For D min7 the formula is 1 b3 5 b7. So to your church triad, you need to add b7 which is C.
The formula/construction of these chords is not easy for the beginner. Are you looking to skype with Dave or find a good jazz teacher ?
A good theory book will help here. Theory is the one thing that books are good at. Levine's book will teach you all you need to know about chords, shells, modes, upper structures, rootless voicings, etc.
I would read the levine book, play the example as given, not try to master any of it, and then all this stuff about 7 and 13 will be obvious to you.
Thank you for that. Yeah in church I'm very used to just doing a right handed triad and left hand root fifth and octave, but now it sounds like I'll have to play the triad with the 7th in the LH and do the melodic runs in my right. It will take some getting used to. Doesn't help that I only have 30 mins of practice a day. And unfortunately I cannot afford a teacher so I'll be flying solo and trying to teach myself with the help of you and a book to guide me.
K, if you have 30 min/day to practice, I suggest 10 min on the jazzhanons in 6 keys or so, 5 min on the voicings in 2-3 keys, and 15 min on the blues tune for now..
Thanks Dave for laying out a nice schedule for me. Since I only have the first lesson printed out is it possible to get the audio for the Autumn blues or leaf line so I know how the timing goes and what a swinging time is supposed to sound like.
Thank you for that. Yeah in church I'm very used to just doing a right handed triad and left hand root fifth and octave, but now it sounds like I'll have to play the triad with the 7th in the LH and do the melodic runs in my right. It will take some getting used to. Doesn't help that I only have 30 mins of practice a day. And unfortunately I cannot afford a teacher so I'll be flying solo and trying to teach myself with the help of you and a book to guide me.
I'll look at the jazz theory book by Levine.
You're welcome K. On Dave's website is also a nice example of him playing a particular tune with the swing, to contrast with playing straight.
Quick update. Getting busy, playing tonight at a restaurant and tomorrow night at a hotel! Dave's gonna be like: "Hey, how come you don't practice anymore!"
Update: Finally got the Linear Harmony book (Ligon). I think I can get a lot out of this book. Presents some stuff about theory in a way I hadn't seen before, and found quite helpful. In no way does it come across as a 'method' book similar to JOI. He's quite happy to present you with something on a single page that could easily take 6 months to master. Next page, same in all minor keys. KHen - I think you're better off leaving this one just now. If you have the Levine for theory, great, and perhaps a general sight reading book as knotty suggested. But if you can manage to stick with JOI, then the great thing with it is it progresses at a realistic pace. Ligon assumes you know all voicings, for example.
Dave: I just wanted to thank you for writing something that is do-able for small-fingered people. I don't know if this was deliberate or not. So far, I've not been asked to fudge a 9th or a 10th. Some of the major 7ths are tricky, but I can stretch to them.
Also I just want to check this is a simple mistake. Lesson 8, p 54, the E7 at the end of the line should be D F# G# C# (7 9 3 13).
I have a sore throat and so excused myself scat singing for just now. This one I whistled. My whistling of chromatic notes was never that great, so the next one I just played straight. Getting contrapuntal over you:
I'm finding that writing these out is getting easier, also I memorize the voicings much quicker. Or, I can say, right I'm not going to do it that way, I'm going to do it this way, and still get the chord in on time. At least sometimes I manage it.
How's everyone getting on? Knotty, have you recovered from your gigs?
The blues and tune were awesome, as usual. As far as the original melody, I think you might want to learn it from a youtube video or something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-ReTatgS3M
With transcribe, you can download these and transpose to a good key. You'll get a much better feel on it.
>>Knotty, have you recovered from your gigs? I'm up! Went really well. Funny story, turns out the one yesterday was organized for a cancer foundation. And the person that funded the evening is a multiple grammy award winner (whose name I did not pick up). Though not a jazz musician. Towards the end of the last set, he said "hang on, I'll be right back". Came back with an Alto sax and said "let's play a ballad". Someone had just request misty so I said "Misty?". He's like, alright. I don't know the melody but let's improvise. None of us had no idea what the heck he was playing, but sounded like a long turn-around throughout, so somehow we kept up with it. halfway through: "Can you double it up?". Before you know it, we're playing an insane tempo and he's just going up and down the horn like crazy... Anyway, that was fun!
None of us had no idea what the heck he was playing, but sounded like a long turn-around throughout, so somehow we kept up with it. halfway through: "Can you double it up?". Before you know it, we're playing an insane tempo and he's just going up and down the horn like crazy...
He funded the event? That's called 'tempo correctus perfectissimo' knotty!
Thanks for the comments. The melody was that good was it? I'd been listening to Tommy Doresy play Getting Sentimental, but I must admit I found it a challenge to pin the tune down.
>> He funded the event? That's called 'tempo correctus perfectissimo' knotty! I think he was one of the main contributors for this cause. The only name that was announced that night (other than ours).
Hey Ten You are getting into these JOI tunes in a massive way. Your swing is really cool and I liked your grace notes on the jazz one. BTW I must be one of the few people in the world who can't whistle.
Hey Knots That's hilarious about the confident non-jazz dude who improvised a jazz standard. It sounded like a very fun night.
Thanks for commenting custard. I feel like I'm on a roll with the lessons and just want to keep going, get them under my belt asap. Get on with the improvising which is what I'm in this for.
I did put those grace notes in at the very end, only once I was happy with the shape of the tune.
Finger's been feeling great thanks Ten. So I've been back to Hanons and improvising. I'm looking forward to listening to your submission on the May recital.
Here's one thing I'm hearing. I'm hearing you play in groups, but accenting the last note of the group. So it's a bit displaced to me. Play groups of 4s, but accent the 1st.
I tried mixing short (1 measure), and long lines, up to 8 bars.
What I'd do with Dave is record him play a few bars. Back home, you play it once, then play once, play it, then you play. It naturally slowly sinks in that way.
DF: You didn't know I was recording you were you?? (it's in my sock)
I stopped by the ABF thread to check out your Black Orpheus. Sounded great. I'm unable to keep up with the pace of the thread, but I wanted to stop by and see what you were up to.
I have a slightly different take on the accents from knotty. (Knotty - maybe we are saying the same thing, but I'm not sure what you mean about the 4 notes, so this is just a different approach, in case it is helpful).
If I have a bar of 4/4 with 8 quavers and I'm counting 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +, then to make it swing, I give all the notes on the + a bit of an accent. This was really hard for me to learn - sounds easy, but it wasn't. I didn't get it at all till I realised I had to go soft on all the notes on the beats.
In your improv, where you are accenting, nine times out of ten, it is on the beat. That's why it's not swinging yet, though the the notes and the rhythm are good. You do give a few offbeat accents, which sound jazzy.
Next thing I learned is that being totally predictable (about accenting offbeats) is boring. So every now and then I hit something HARD. Sometimes it's on beat, and sometimes it's not. (Hey, sometimes it's not even on the piano.)
If you want to practice this, maybe one bar of a nice, easy hanon? Over and over and over. Make the longs soft, and the shorts HARD.
>> I'm not sure what you mean about the 4 notes You think and feel in groups of 4. This achieves multiple goals, one of which is to swing.
I never personally understood the concept of putting accents on particular beats. But if you accent every other note, it will have this bouncy feel to it, it will sound less coherent and won't flow as nice. It's all about letting it flow.
However, think of 4 notes, like a C-7 arpeggio. Play it, accent the first note. You see, very often what is played is in groups of 4. Like that arpeggio. You want to put the accent on the first of those 4s, and keep that feeling in 4 going throughout. The accent is light.
I think we're probably saying the same thing in different ways. If you play 4 quavers, then it is very likely that the first will be on an offbeat anyway. Sometimes will, sometimes won't.
You certainly can't put a heavy accent on every other note, that will sound awful.
I stopped by the ABF thread to check out your Black Orpheus. Sounded great. I'm unable to keep up with the pace of the thread, but I wanted to stop by and see what you were up to.
++
Thankyou knotty for saying. Your own contribution was awesome!
I was happy with what I was doing with Black Orpheus, and it just so happened, I was happy enough with a particular approach at the right time to submit. I had spent ages doing comping on that tune: LH bass note and RH chords + rhythm. But I don't have a soloist! Then I did LH bass and RH melody, and managed to get enough chords into the RH for it to flow.
Now I can comp and whistle (and keep good time), but perhaps it's as well I didn't submit that for the recital!
>> If you play 4 quavers, then it is very likely that the first will be on an offbeat anyway Terms are often confusing. What do you call offbeat?
When you say this: >>I'm counting 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +, then to make it swing, I give all the notes on the + a bit of an accent I understood it as accent every 2 notes.
But yeah, otherwise, they are probably different ways to look at the same thing.
However, if you feel in 4, your lines will flow much better. They will be longer and more coherent also.
>>Now I can comp and whistle (and keep good time), but perhaps it's as well I didn't submit that for the recital! smile you totally should. Have you checked out Toots Thielemans? He still plays, what a great guy!
Thanks. I just downloaded Bill Evans and will listen for a few days. I was looking for the Frank Sinatra type of thing - sing the tune, the whole tune and nothing but the tune, so help me.
I tried mixing short (1 measure), and long lines, up to 8 bars.
What I'd do with Dave is record him play a few bars. Back home, you play it once, then play once, play it, then you play. It naturally slowly sinks in that way.
DF: You didn't know I was recording you were you?? (it's in my sock)
Hey Knots I really appreciate you taking time out to critique me then play your cool improv. I've played yours several times and your flow sounds wonderful, it's got a completely different feel to my displaced feel. In particular, as you mentioned, when I start on the 1+, the last note of my 4-note group is over accented. I'm going to study yours a lot over the next couple of weeks and will no doubt come back with more questions. Thanks so much ! cus
you're totally on the right track. Don't necessarily sit 2 more weeks on this, but maybe spend a few days playing with the feeling in 4 feeling. Then move on to another key.
not sure what you mean by "relying on the RH melody".
What you're doing in your sample is right. I can hear your blocks of 4s, it's a natural thing to do, maybe you're not even thinking about it. But force yourself to slightly accent the first of the 4.
I hope my sample demonstrated this. Obviously, you get what you pay for
>> I've done A min, D min and G min. You might want to move through the key a little faster. There are still a few progressions besides 2-5-1 to go through.
So since I printed off those sheets like a week and half ago things have gone rather slow progress wise. I still fuddle up on the hanons and I sight read very slowly because I have to look down to see the keys. Other than that I'm starting to slowly get into the swing feel of things, but it will take some time. I may be on lesson one for a month or so more before I can move on.
Hi K For the Hanons, will it help if you thought of "number patterns" rather than the note ? So 1234 5321 for ascending and 5432 1345 ? Just keep on applying this same number pattern for whichever key you're in.
For the tunes, are you concentrating on the blues ?
That is great that you are starting to feel the swing. Even I am still working really hard at it and I start Book 2 tunes today.
KHen - Glad to hear you're still at it! If you're using JOI for learning how to play piano from music (which does entail not looking at your hands the whole time) then I honestly think progress is going to be slow no matter what.
Previously with my accenting, I was relying on my LH chord. I really need to practise counting in 4s by relying on the RH melody. Do you agree ?
Hi Knotty I know you're really busy with your band so please reply after things calm down for you.
I was thinking about Dave's Grateful Dead masterclass. He said that there are 2 layers of rhythm. a) LH pulse 1 2 3 4. b) Superimposed 8th note groove. This is my RH.
Previously I was relying on a) for my accenting. However for my accenting, I should be relying on the 8th note flow rather than where the whole note pulse is.
Sounds good to me. I've never been too much into theory. I'm more of a "listen and copy" type. But yeah, I don't think I pay attention to the LH for the accents. Just the fact that you try to build your lines in blocks of 4 8th notes, and the 1st one has a slight accent.
I'm getting impatient to improvise. I know, I know, the voicings. Certainly the ones in the tunes are feeling familiar. As for going through them lesson by lesson, I do the exercise, but I'm never sure what is going in. I've also been doing ii-V-I's as in Ligon's book, and that is beginning to penetrate.
It's been recommended to wait until lesson 13 to start improv. But it's not really that, you start with composition. And after you've done a few, maybe 6? Then we'll do what Cus is doing now.
I think it took me about a year of Joi before starting improvising on tunes. But things move really fast after that. Seems like you're going througt pretty fast. '
As for lesson 9. You clearly got it. However, I find you didn't swing quite as hard as usual. Could you record it again without the backing tracks?
Interesting. I didn't do anything deliberate, but I have been wondering if I've been swinging too hard. Maybe it's subconscious? Will record with metro tomorrow. I've been trying to get myself used to the drummer.
So what's the actual assignment with composition then?
>> So what's the actual assignment with composition then? Really simple. You see those tunes DF wrote in the book. Now you do it. Use mostly 8th notes. Wait a couple more weeks. If you dig through the thread, I described it in detail. I still need to work on organizing this thread ...
>> I've been trying to get myself used to the drummer. I'm not a super big fan of the box drummers, I have to say. I think it will restrict you. I prefer Aerbersold, and each track feels different so you can pick. But don't feel like you need a drummer.
re composition, I had a look at the first few pages of the thread. I have dome similar things with a line here and there. I may dig them out and make a start if I have time in the coming week. I think I also see where you're coming from with the 4's. What confused me was you say 'counting in 4's' - for me, this isn't counting, it's just playing 4 quavers. Counting is something different.
The drummer is a CD, not a box. Live recording of a drummer at different speeds, and I've been using track 120. Just makes a change from the metronome. I do the hanons every day with the metronome and sometimes that's enough, if not for me, then for the others in the house.
Custard - I had another look at hanon 20. That is certainly a finger-twister designed to test rhythmic accuracy, and I'm not sorry that there are another 10 lessons between me and it! I did listen to the recording and I think you're brave to try it at such speed. I wonder if it might help to think more of 'landing' on the quavers on beats 2 and 4, perhaps trying to swing less. Perhaps even trying not to swing at all (by which I mean play the quavers evenly) until you feel more stable at whatever speed you are playing at. Just a thought. I haven't yet done it at that speed.
Wow Ten, your JOI tunes are great. Especially the jazz one. I liked the accuracy of your rhythm and of your change to the lower octave during your singing of Phrase 1.
Custard - I had another look at hanon 20. That is certainly a finger-twister designed to test rhythmic accuracy, and I'm not sorry that there are another 10 lessons between me and it! I did listen to the recording and I think you're brave to try it at such speed. I wonder if it might help to think more of 'landing' on the quavers on beats 2 and 4, perhaps trying to swing less. Perhaps even trying not to swing at all (by which I mean play the quavers evenly) until you feel more stable at whatever speed you are playing at. Just a thought. I haven't yet done it at that speed.
Thank you Ten. I'm going to forget the 152 bpm and go back to 132 bpm which is still a challenge tempo for me. Initially I will use the met on every beat. Then I will use the met for beats 1 and 3 to see if I can sound more relaxed. So do I put my met to 66 bpm ? You're so used to using the met for beats 2 and 4. I haven't even tried beats 1 and 3 so I anticipate it's going to take a while for me to get used to that new feeling.
That is wonderful how you are progressing so quickly through JOI. Maybe we will end up working on Lesson 20 Hanons together
This one's really hard. You just gotta take it at a good speed and keep the triplets even.
Thanks for your feedback Knotty. The way I see the Hanons is like a surfie training for more and more difficult sets. When I first played this one at 120 bpm on 1 March, I knew this one was special. At the moment it's conquering me but I'm not gonna let it.
Then I will use the met for beats 1 and 3 to see if I can sound more relaxed. So do I put my met to 66 bpm ?
Hi custard,
I did work hard (in pre-JOI days) to use the metronome on beats 2 and 4, but that's nothing to do with what I meant about 'landing' on 2 and 4 in hanon 20. I'm not sure putting the metronome to half speed is going to make much difference, though you're welcome to try.
What I mean it this. Beat 1 is a triplet. The challenge is to get into triplet feel quickly. For me, how I do it is I focus on 'landing' on the first part of beat 2 at just the right moment. I'm saying this because I felt you were rushing the first of the triplets - probably to get them in on time because you're feeling pressured for speed. You have more time than you think.
I started at 112 and finished at 144. It is not perfect. I found the notes on '2 and' and '4 and' were very much afterthoughts. I have no hope of accenting these offbeats just now - too damned difficult at speed.
Really, custard, it's triplets from here on in. Why not just move on to the next one? Maybe it'll be easier with the triplets on a different beat?
Hi Ten That's interesting. I knew I had a tendency to rush the 2nd triplet. I just listened back to my post and you're right, the 1st triplet is rushed too Yes, I listen to Dave all the time. Does Transcribe have a speed up function too ?
Ten, Cus and other JOI followers. Wanna do a test? If it works for the 3 of us, then we should be able to add more. Australia isn't known for super fast internet, but we can try.
10 AM is cool if it's cool for Cus, we could do a Sat morn NYC, Monday morn NYC works better for me generally.. Don't know how many can talk at once on skype
how do you get more than one person on the screen at the same time, now if someone calls while I'm on, I have to put call 1 on hold..a skype upgrade to the latest?
I started at 112 and finished at 144. It is not perfect. I found the notes on '2 and' and '4 and' were very much afterthoughts. I have no hope of accenting these offbeats just now - too damned difficult at speed.
Really, custard, it's triplets from here on in. Why not just move on to the next one? Maybe it'll be easier with the triplets on a different beat?
Hi Ten I appreciate you doing this. It's awesome how well you picked this up. I noticed that you weren't accenting. I was trying to accent to simulate counting in 4s. But I won't do this anymore. I glanced at Lesson 21 Hanons and it's just as difficult since the triplets are positioned in the middle of the 8ths.
Hi Knotty The Command-0 works great thanks. I sped up the lesson to 112% to get the 136 bpm speed (hope my math is correct).
not good, we need to have everybody playin..try and think of another time, maybe late East Coast?
DF
Anytime Dave. I will close up all my windows. I will try to have a practice go at balancing my Apple notebook in-built camera so that my hands can be seen.
Hi Dave Cool I received your You-tube bulletin fine. Yeah, it looks like it's just you on the Skype screen but you can still hear us. Have fun deciphering the Scottish and Australian accents !
Hi Ten I appreciate you doing this. It's awesome how well you picked this up. I noticed that you weren't accenting. I was trying to accent to simulate counting in 4s. But I won't do this anymore. I glanced at Lesson 21 Hanons and it's just as difficult since the triplets are positioned in the middle of the 8ths.
Hi Knotty The Command-0 works great thanks. I sped up the lesson to 112% to get the 136 bpm speed (hope my math is correct).
custard - I often wake up singing the jazz tune, the blues tune, the solo, etc, I was practicing the day before. This morning I woke up singing hanon 20.
I noticed all the hanons have triplets from lesson 10 onward. Why don't you go back a little, record a hanon you did previously? It's all in switching in and out of triplet mode quickly.
I'm not sure counting in 4s will help. My understanding was that that is an idea to increase confidence in sticking runs of quavers together while improvising, not to help rhythmic accuracy.
Knotty - good to know about the speed up function, I hadn't noticed that.
To all - I'm up for skyping. Just not sure about times.
I think when there's already a call in progress. Add to conference appears. I'm pretty sure we won't have video for 4 people though.
I can live with that. With 4 of us, we'll also need to be careful when speaking, not to speak over each other. Skype has a slight delay and you can end up with lots of sorry, what was that? you go ahead, no you go ahead, etc. I would tentatively suggest that Dave lead and we'll follow.
You need to enable our skype addresses, and we yours. I put my skype name in a PM to you. Did you receive it? Little flashing letter thing at the top of the screen where it says 'my stuff'?
Hi Dave, Knotty, 10 Yeah, that was totally crazily awesome. I wonder if it was one of the world's first group video conferencing Skype lessons ? This new version of Skype is so cool. I learnt so much from this video conference, especially when Dave explained the JOI process to 10 and taught me step by step about the technical and creative elements of improv. And trading 4s between Dave and Knotty was such a fun way to end the lesson. Thank you so much for your time and encouragement.
Hi joisters, that was one incredible way to brighten up a weekend! Thanks to custard for hosting the video conferencing, to Dave for your time and skills! It was cool to hear you all play.
I need some proper practice time to get lesson 10 in the bag. I really want to get on with this.
Hi Ten Despite your protestation, I thought you played the JOI Lesson 10 tune perfectly. You really have the feeling. And I enjoyed meeting your cool son, he was grooving to the trading in fours improv between Dave and Knotty.
Custard, you are too kind. I suppose I played pretty much the right notes, but there is a big difference between managing this, and feeling like I'm inside the notes and can do whatever I want with them, expression-wise. I recorded this today:
I've also been trying to do this on guitar. This is my first ever joi guitar recording, leaves plenty room for improvement! Listen only if you have the patience, it's slow.
It was maybe two months ago I started playing guitar without armbands (tab). Brings new meaning to the words 'getting the notes right'. I also need to work on how to record, because the chords (from the CD) are barely audible.
Let us know when you want to do it again. If we can't video conference then we can always do sound only. It was wonderful to see your faces and I know Daniel got a lot out of experiencing live music.
We should be able to video conference. I'm thinking of paying the yearly subscription, I believe only one person in the group needs the video conference moderator status.
In typical Dave style, he is sharing his skill set for free. Here is the audio file version of our memorable Skype video conference session for you to benefit from.
Hi custard, thanks for recording. If you don't mind taking out the subscription, then that'll be great, and we make this a semi-regular thing. I'd look forward to that.
This is a great composition. You made good use of repetition. Short and long lines. I thought it worked really good. You played it well also, I know it's difficult to play one's own composition, I could never get that right!
There are tons of things to experiment with. For the most part, you can let your ear be the guide and not really worry about rules, but you can also choose to experiment with 1 or 2 new concepts each time. For example, starting on different beats. I think you start mostly on 1 and 2. It's typical to start on 4&, or 1&. Experiment with different beats. Also where you end. It's common on end on 1, but you can experiment with other beats also. The last note is the most important.
I don't know how you came up with this so fast. It would always take me 2 weeks!!
Hello JOI friends. I'm sorry to say I've been ill and had surgery. This is my first time back since mid March and I'm trying to catch up with all the neat stuff. I read the postings up to early April - I'll take a few days to get caught up. I'm probably several weeks away from having any fun on the piano, but it is good to be back. Back in March someone posted Lullaby of Leaves by LT. It sounds like Lennie has studied with Dave Frank. Also Knotty posted a Chet Baker tune. Knotty, your easy-going swing reminds my of Chet Baker a lot - much admired. Bye for now.
Hi TF I'm really sorry too. I was wondering what happened to you coz you kinda vanished overnight after you did the great Lesson 1 composition. Welcome back !
Time Flies - sorry to hear you've had a hard time. Like the others, I did wonder what had happened to you. All the best for a speedy recovery!
Thanks for listening to the decomposition, and also for the comments! I probably spent more time practising it than I did writing, especially as I didn't write the chords out properly. I figure it's a good exercise to read the LH chords without notes. Might spend a little more time getting comfortable with it, then, what would you suggest? Another leafy one or move on to #2?
The next lesson (Angel eyes) raises the bar another notch, so that will also take some time.
The more of those compositions you do, the easier improvising will be. Since you seem to be really fast at them, you can always do another and see what happens. But moving on is fine too. At the end of each composition, we try to find an new area for you to experiment with.
You can choose to re-use Dave's chosen voicings for this. this is an opportunity to practice them. By the time you start improv, many will be second nature.
I suppose I played pretty much the right notes, but there is a big difference between managing this, and feeling like I'm inside the notes and can do whatever I want with them, expression-wise. I recorded this today:
You've nailed it. Nice blues. For the jazz one, your singing with the LH chords captured well the modulation between the G key centre in A section and the D min 7 feeling in B section.
Hey 10 Are you sure Decomposition was your first one ?! I agree with Knotty, it's really great. You really applied the Skype masterclass principles well. I liked your melodic lines especially in A section. Like Time Flies, you seem to be a natural at it, and I'm sure you're going to love composing.
Yeah, it's unbelievable how you did this so quickly. I took much longer than Knotty to compose each one.
This is what Sonny Rollins said yesterday at the age of 80 "I practise my instrument every day. I'm writing music. I always want to do better. But I just feel that there's no time now not to do better. I have to do better".
Wow! This is the first time I've actually heard an international jazz workshop. It is so great to hear everyone's voices and to hear everyone having so much fun working on their jazz. Congratulations on such a successful session!
Hi Glen, nice of you to stop by! Thank you for your kind words.
Custard, I must come clean. In school we did counterpoint and harmony alla Bach. We were quite thoroughly versed in phrase shapes. I found myself being aware of the old 'rules' while I was writing. It was a long time ago, but somehow it comes back to me. This was lots easier than writing a line of Bach. I realise that the JOI method is more about absorbing the genre than following rules or theory. But I did find it helpful to think about the shapes and intervals, and that really is down to my old school teachers, bless them.
I really wasn't aware of key changes, but I must go back and look into that.
I just wanted to share one other thing. My family have been exposed to a lot of what I play. I practice as much as I can when the kids are in school, but sometimes it's just not possible. I think what I've been playing has rubbed off on my son. Now that we're not preparing for his exam, the teacher today asked him to improvise. He played so well. I know every mother is proud, but really he played much better than before. The teacher had planned (I think) to say something about phrasing. But all he could say is, 'right, you've got it. Nice phrases, landing on a chord note'. Of course it is possible that the discipline of preparing for the exam made him sharpen up, and now it's over, he's moved on a notch. But I really think it may be down to JOI and me - sometimes I'm playing and he just starts singing. It's an interesting time.
Hi 10 Yeah, I'm sure it's rubbed off onto him. This was the son who provided the rhythm section for your Louis Armstrong singing ? He's got a great sense of pulse. Maybe when he is a bit older, he would like to use JOI for guitar, as you have kinda been inspired to do ?
Hi Glen Thanks ! Yes it sure was international and a lot of fun.
I'm really happy I found this study group! I've been trying to catch up with the 30 pages in this thread so far so sorry if I ask question covered so far.
I'm wondering how far to go with singing along with the recommened solos.Do you practice it tell you can sing flawlessly with the recording or just get the jest of it? Should you be able to sing the solo without the recording?
I'm a pretty good reader so I find that I can learn the written lesson pretty quickly but it takes me quite awile to learn to sing the recomened solos. Should I move on to the next lesson even though I don't have complete mastery of singing the solo?
Also, I somehow lost CD that comes with the book. Would anyone be so kind as to burn me a copy or send me a mp3?
Hi Monty and welcome! Don't worry about repeating what's already in the thread.
I'm going to let others answer your questions. All I would say is that singing along to the solos seems to be a really important part of the process, though it's quite time consuming at first. The more you do it, the easier it'll get.
Thanks Knotty, I actually went through the whole book years ago, but I never did any of the singing of the solos. I could read all the etudes at 120, the jazz Hanons, and patterns in all keys. But I never worked on the singing of the recommended solos. My excuse was I couldn’t find the CDs… Now it’s so much easier with iTunes.
Anyways, I want to go through the whole book 1 again. This time I’ll sing all recommended solos for sure.
Also I’m considering of not referring to the written notation. Just learn (re-learn) all the patterns, jazz Hanon, and etudes by ear. My reading is pretty good but my aural aren’t that great. That's why I really need the CD!
Monty, do you have Transcribe? I couldn't do without it, for singing the solos. I probably spend about a total of two hours on each one, though some of that is just looping while washing dishes, and some is dedicated time learning bar by bar. I might do 8 bars or 16. Sometimes I do it to the level of playing without the original, and sometimes I just sing with the original.
At first it did truly seem like an overwhelming task. I really needed to take it bar by bar, often repeating that bar many times before I've got it. But taking it slow like this I've been amazed what I can do, without trying really hard, or it being really difficult. It's just time-consuming.
I do record (sometimes) in order to encourage others to see it is do-able and fun. I'm glad this encouraged you. I try to think as little about my voice-timbre as possible!
As you say, mp3 downloads make it all much easier.
Hi Monty Welcome and thanks for joining us. That's awesome that you're going to revisit JOI. Singing the solos is one of my favourite parts of the day. Since you don't seem to be a beginner as if you've gone through JOI once, I like Knotty's advice to try and sing each solo as correctly as you can. I work out what is a manageable phrase and mark it up in Transcribe.
Most of the phrases from Lester are wonderful. Every now and then he goes off in a little spin, seemingly unaware of the rhythm going on around him. Those bits are difficult.
I've been keeping up with my goal of a lesson a week, but this week I won't be able to. I have family over at the weekend, so I don't imagine there will be much time for playing. Also this lesson seems to lift the bar a little higher. I suppose they all do, but this one I notice.
Thanks Ten and Knotty. I only have to wait another 9.5 hours till Sonny. He says he has been composing more than ever. So there will be new songs which I don't know. I know I will get my money's worth.
Ten Loved the blues swing in your Taxi War Dance. This wasn't an easy one for me. You did great.
Hi Knotty I've been trying hard to keep my triplets even for Hanon Lesson 20. As you know, this is really hard for me. I've been meaning to ask you what is the theory behind keeping them even for these Hanon exercises ? I've developed a swing feeling on a lot of my triplets from listening to Dave play the JOI blues and swing tunes. Thanks ! cus
>> I've been meaning to ask you what is the theory behind keeping them even for these Hanon exercises ? What do you mean theory?
you should play those straight. Meaning you divide the beat in 3. you could set the metronome on triple speed to get the feel, but I don't think you need to.
Thanks for the welcome back. I won't be posting for awhile, but I am reading and listening.
I recently found out there's a pro musician in my senior community. He a bluesman - guitar and drums - but has played with Paul Jackson Sr (the bassist with Herbie Hancock and The Head Hunters) back in the 80's as well as Stan Kenton's drummer and Charlie Parker's string bassist, Ted Wald. We're both temporarily a bit out of sorts but we're exchanging email. I was telling him about Dave Frank and his method. My new friend said: "Dave Frank is right!"
I think I know what you mean. I believe it is incorrectly written on the sheet. It's often the case with triplets. Prob should be written as 1/8 + 2/16. If you point me to a specific example, I might be able to tell you for sure.
But yes, in the Hanon, play them straight. Same for 16th. Straight.
I mean sometimes Dave plays his triplets straight and sometimes he swings them hard in his JOI tunes.
Like, in jazz, sometimes triplets are played straight and sometimes they are swung.
I am not sure what you are sayng here, but I have noticed that some of the written triplets in JOI are played on the CD about equally and some are played so that the 2nd of the 3 comes when you would expect a swing eighth, and then the 3rd is half an eighth note after that second one. It is as if it were written as a quarter note followed by two sixteenth notes with a triplet mark over the 3 notes. For example, the triplet in The Joy of C 6th line last bar first beat.
Is that the thing you are referring to as as triplets swung hard?
Probably my greatest weakness as a player is my ear. I'm thinking about learning all the etudes and jazz Hanons in the JOI by ear. I'll probaly just refer to the written music to get the chord changes for the etudes.
I figure between singing all the recomend solos and learning the hanons and etudes by ear, maybe aural skills will improve.
Yes Monty you should sing everything to develop what Dave calls "the inner ear". Especially for each JOI blues and jazz tune, sing while playing both hands, then sing with LH chords, then sing a capella.
And if you sing the Master solos, you will find yourself singing them throughout the day.
Hi Knotty Thanks for asking about Sonny, I've just come back. Sonny has never played better.
1. Patanjali - one of his most recent compositions. This was my favourite of the 8 songs. Typical of Sonny, the head is simple and he refered to it numerous times during the solo. He was in such a good mood that he even referenced a nursery rhyme in his solo. I lost count of how many bars he held the last note. Maybe 12 or more ?
Your band would love the strong rhythm of this fun song.
When he started on this uptempo song, I knew he would play killer all night.
2. Blue Gardenia - the Nat King Cole ballad. Three of the eight songs were ballads. He's lost none of his poignancy from his Way Out West days.
3. An uptempo composition I didn't know. He was so into it that at the end he was playing his sax with one hand, and conducting himself with the other.
After this song, I knew he would not allow himself nor his quintet nor his audience a break.
4. Global Warming - a great Calypso composition. Your band would like this composition too.
5. Serenade - a ballad folk song
6. A ballad I didn't know
7. An uptempo one I didn't know.
8. St Thomas
And then the Australian national anthem !
Sonny's sound was full of energy but never shriekish nor aggressive. Some of his arps in his uptempo solos were so amazingly out yet beautiful, they always came in at just the right place.
He played for 2 hours straight.
You should have been there.
The quintet included electric bass, drums, percussion and electric guitar.
Hi Knotty Thanks for your kind offer to listen through these examples of swung triplets.
1. Lesson 2 The Joy of C: the triplet in 6th line last bar first beat. (Yup 2shlow, I remember this one now ! btw what lesson are you up to ? )
2. Lesson 27 Apple Scraps : B section 2nd bar in E min7
3. Lesson 27: B section 5th bar in D min7
I am only in Lesson 4, where there are two more examples of this "special triplet", in the middle of the 2nd and 6th lines of Precipitation. By the way, because my piano technique is so limited, I am proceeding very slowly (about 4 weeks to a lesson, so far, which is not according to Dave's advice). But I am used to being a slow starter, and so in the end I am confident that I will be able to play and improvise nicely with JOI's help; my slow hands will catch up to my ears, if I just do not give up.
In the matter of these so-called swing triplets, the ear is far more important in the matter of timing of jazz than the written notes, so we should first always play what is on the CDs and not what is written in the book; later we can take liberty with the tunes, if we like. This is truly obvious, but it needs to be repeated, lest we forget it. I listen to the CDs and midis endlessly, and find more and more fine details that I at first missed. The notes in the book are a reliable guide to WHICH keys to press, but not WHEN to press them or HOW LONG to press them.
>> 1. Lesson 2 The Joy of C: the triplet in 6th line last bar first beat. It's not notated correctly. I would write 1/8th, followed by a 16th triplet starting with a rest.
But it's much easier to read as an 8th triplet. So to some extent, you could call it correct. If you were transcribing Parker for example, you might choose to write it like that so it's easier to read later. You'd probably remember the rhythm.
Hopefully that answers the other 2 also. If not, let me know, I'll check.
Play the trips in the hanon straight. Same if you improvise with a 8th triplet line. Play straight. But the 16th triplet effect is very nice and idiomatic. Bird uses it all over the place. On a horn, it's really easy to do because one can trill with exactly 1/2 the effort as on a piano. One note up, one note down, while the piano only produces sound when you press down.
Custard - wonderful description, sounds like you had a ball!
2 Shlow - great to have you on board! I wouldn't worry about doing things 'slowly'. In my experience, anything to stick at, you get eventually. These tunes do present a fair few technical challenges.
Shamed to admit I rarely listen to the CD. My CD player is so ancient it won't let me skip tracks (at least nor reliably), so I would need to listen to the preamble every time. I do have the tracks on my computer. Perhaps I find it a little tiresome to listen right through the track, including the hanon, to get to the bit I want. The lesson I'm on now (eyes have it, lesson 11) is the first I've felt I really needed to put in Transcribe and do it as suggested in the book. It has several triplets, some of which are even and some are played quaver-semi-semi. So for this I did need the recording, but mostly I do get them from the book.
Shamed to admit I rarely listen to the CD. My CD player is so ancient it won't let me skip tracks (at least nor reliably), so I would need to listen to the preamble every time. I do have the tracks on my computer. Perhaps I find it a little tiresome to listen right through the track, including the hanon, to get to the bit I want. The lesson I'm on now (eyes have it, lesson 11) is the first I've felt I really needed to put in Transcribe and do it as suggested in the book. It has several triplets, some of which are even and some are played quaver-semi-semi. So for this I did need the recording, but mostly I do get them from the book.
Note that once you have ripped the CD to your computer, as you have already done, you can load individual tracks in Transcribe! and mark sections to save as individual files with the "Export split sound file" function (you can thus just leave in the Blues and the Song as two files and cut the rest)! Transcribe! is one of my favorite programs that does so much more than just help one transcribe. The saved files are .wav (at least on my Windows machine), but you can convert them to .mp3 as I do to save space.
>> 1. Lesson 2 The Joy of C: the triplet in 6th line last bar first beat. It's not notated correctly. I would write 1/8th, followed by a 16th triplet starting with a rest.
But it's much easier to read as an 8th triplet. So to some extent, you could call it correct. If you were transcribing Parker for example, you might choose to write it like that so it's easier to read later. You'd probably remember the rhythm.
Hopefully that answers the other 2 also. If not, let me know, I'll check.
Play the trips in the hanon straight. Same if you improvise with a 8th triplet line. Play straight. But the 16th triplet effect is very nice and idiomatic. Bird uses it all over the place. On a horn, it's really easy to do because one can trill with exactly 1/2 the effort as on a piano. One note up, one note down, while the piano only produces sound when you press down.
Thanks Knotty for listening to the example. I love those Bird triplets. When I look at the you-tube videos of you doing Bird, I still don't know how you manage to get your fingers around those Bird triplets.
Hi 2 shlow Yes I remember when Ten was singing Precipitation, she highlighted those kinds of "triplets". I admire your perseverance. It's good to have for a systematic and comprehensive methodology such as JOI.
Thanks Ten ! It's great that Sonny is always so fresh. I didn't expect to hear Tenor Madness songs. Composing constantly is a great discipline IMO, it must keep him inspired.
Hi knotty, funny, I was about to ask every one else that!
It has been a while since I posted. The truth is I have been terribly busy family-wise and music-wise but not done an awful lot of JOI. I knew this was going to happen and had abandoned all hope of getting lesson 11 done in a week. I have however kept going whenever I could and today made a couple of recordings. Here is lesson 11 blues: http://www.box.net/shared/amgvr4xixi
Hopefully it's fairly accurate to Dave's playing. I've tried to copy as accurately as I can. Only in the last bar of the third last line, I stacattoed both hands, while I meant to hold the LH chord down. Dang!
I really like this jazz tune. Hope they're all this good from here on in.
At the weekend I had over my uncle and aunt from Canada I hadn't seen since I was 7. My brother niece also came over (my brother was always the pianist in the family). All day I had been itching to play the piano, but I just felt it was too anti-social. So we're all in the living room and my brother says to me, Laura, how's your scales? I replied I hadn't been doing scales much, but some exercises for jazz. Well, lets hear them, everyone says. You really don't want this, I replied, they're not that nice to listen to (no offence, Dave). Well, they forced me. And they got what they wanted. All 12 keys. Metronome, singing, the works. Started out HT at 100, and ended up RH only at about 170. After just a couple, my husband begged for mercy. I put the practice pedal on, and carried on.
It was honestly a bit of a conversation-stopper.
How's everyone else doing? Absorbing lessons from the master-class?
Hi Knotty Yeah I know I've been quiet. I've been working hard at improv from the Skype masterclass.
1. Trying to get the LH chords into muscle memory.
2. I'm slowly getting the hang of the LH disciplined pulse - RH creative flow co ordination. Dave's suggestion to pre-record the LH chords for the initial stages was really helpful.
My sentences have tended to sound predictable and symmetrical.
So I'm trying to mix it up more by inserting commas. When Dave referred to "sticking in the lance" in your Skype Section 3, did he mean commas or full stops ? Sometimes when I play with different sentence shapes, this mucks up my LH pulse which means I haven't internalised it quite yet.
don't worry so much cus. Keep the LH chords on the beat, flow the RH and sometimes do longer and sometimes shorter phrases, don't worry if it's not so interesting now. Just go through this level fast and get to playing on the tunes.
I'm preparing for a performance at Iridium on the 26th, I'm trying to get this outside composed piece into my fingers, I'm so slow at it! Wish I could get stuff into my fingers faster, bought a video and book about memorization, maybe that will help:)I'm old already...
Over the over the same weird piece week after week, a little progress only day to day. My wife is lucky she's in Israel at the moment. The guy upstairs has been on the ledge above 52nd st. since last Thursday!
hahahhh Dave, so you actually have neighbours I had thought that you and your wife had the whole block to yourselves in 52nd St so that you could do the burners all night !
Thanks for your encouragement. I'm actually kinda glad you have troubles too, so that you can relate to how hard I'm trying
The Iridium concert sounds very interesting, you are very ambitious to learn the piece by the 26th - not to put the pressure on, but it will be a sell-out !
10, Sounds really good. I had somehow forgotten that one. Very nice.
Cus, Can't wait to hear the result of all the hard work.
As for me, we played last week a repeat of what we did a month of so back. Got something for the PGA coming next week. The PGA is a 5 min walk from the house, but the gig is in a restaurant close by. 2 weeks after that, we have a thing at an audio trade show. It's been hard finding a solid group. Especially a good horn for some reason.
Other than that, I'm struggling on an arrangement of Smile. 30 minutes noodling, nothing I like, repeat the next day. Very slow progress. At some point, I just gotta write it down and end it. I can't hear reharm well enough yet, so it's hard to find the sound I want. Then of course I'll have to learn it ...
Playing the blues, still. That's fun. Basslines, slowly but surely. Learning to sight read, also slowly. Cherokee, faster and faster. It's actually getting insanely fast. Playing Bird's Yardbird suite solo. One of the easiest, but sounds really good. I'm almost ready to record that one.
Oh and I'm preparing because my son's got his recital coming up next week also, and guess who's the accompanist?
>> That is awesome, I had no idea the US Open would be so close to your house. Yeah, in fact, they're putting no parking signs everywhere. It gets crazy.
>> Is your son going to play Handel ? No, Hunter's Chorus, C.M con Weber. I'll record a duet for you.
Cus, The improv sounded great. I thought you incorporated the 3 concepts very well. Nice deep breath after a nice long flowing lines. Followed by short repetition. That was really good.
What tempo was that? You can bump it up a few clicks so long as it stays comfortable.
Thanks very much Knotty for your feedback. Now my improvs are starting to tell a story; before they were kind of like exercises. I love improv even though my brain gets tired afterwards.
It was 63 bpm. I haven't tried a faster temp while trying to incorporate the 3 concepts. I think I will try the new Eb maj - C min progression at 66 bpm.
What did you think of my counting in 4s ?
I'm so looking forward to your son's duet, I imagine he's even more confident now
Hi 10 I agree with Knots. You did wonderful, they weren't easy tunes. The tunes continue to get better and better. Book 2 tunes in particular really test your skills.
I wasn't sure if I should start a new thread for this or post it here. I ended up deciding that this might be the best place for it. It may be a little late, but if anyone lives within driving distance of Rochester NY and wants to catch a bunch of live jazz, sometime between now and next Sunday is the time to visit.
The Rochester International Jazz Festival started last night and runs through next weekend. Here's the artist lineup and all the places they're playing
One mistake in a bad place, but really the RH part there is tricky. I could do it a hundred times and make a mistake each time in a different place. Think it's time to move on. I'm hoping I'll get some time to do a composition this week. I did have a look at lullaby of the leaves changes last week, but nothing worthwhile came to me. It was all too forced so I had to leave it.
Hey 10 Don't worry, the mistake was real minor. You are definitely ready to move on. Well done. I can hear your C min 6 tonality real well in A sections. Yup, C min 6 is my new progression (combined with Eb maj 7).
Hi Lefty Chev You guys really know how to run jazz fests. I would love to attend tomorrow 6pm to see the Jim Hall quartet. Regretfully I have the same problem as 10. When Jim Hall played with Sonny Rollins, their interplays were awesomely melodic and entertaining.
Now I hate to inflict this on you nice peopl, but I wrote something for the changes of lesson 2 (Joy of C). It sounds weird. I'm so close I really can't hear whether there's anything there good or not. Would appreciate a second opinion. I won't be offended if knotty or Dave say, start again, this time put it in the right key. Really, I won't. I just think I've been listening to too much Miles Davis.
Hi 10 Another day, another composition ! I liked your Eb min 7 section for its melody and the 8th note feel. To my ears, it seemed that chromatics were driving your A section. Although your chromatics were nice, I would incorporate them either within a phrase or at the end of a phrase.
At the beginning I would concentrate on: 1. Mainly using 8th notes, this should help it flow. You could also use triplets for variety. 2. Making sure there is enough movement. You can use more arps/ leaps. Your Eb min 7 section began with the cool octave jump. In other places, you could start the phrase with an arp/leap, then descend with a scale which sticks to the tonality for now.
Very kewl. These will really challenge you in new ways. At least it did for me.
I agree with Cus, I would focus at first on using mostly 8th notes. 1/4 notes tend to break the flow.
As far as notes, there are really no rules of scales or anything like that on this exercise, you can let your ear be the guide. I will say that in general you want to try to find a good match of small and large interval. Here, you have almost only small intervals, so time to play with larger ones. By larger, I mean a 3rd or more. Typically you want to incorporate more arpeggios. You can never overuse those.
This is a very short tune with a lot of repeats, so a pretty easy one to write composed solos on. Phrasing is really important. The basic idea is to use a long flow of 8th notes, followed by a nice long rest. You can experiment with this on the 8 measure A section. For example, 4 measures with only 8th notes, one or 2 measures of rest, then a short phrase. Things like that.
And only now I'm reading Cus' comment and I realize she's saying the same thing. If you want to do a second one and use some of those comments, I think it would be a good use of your time.
Thankyou both for your comments. I'll have another go at that one.
Edit: Here goes again. I'm happier with this one. I decided from what I did yesterday, I was basically happy with the B section and not happy with the A section. So I've kept B and rewritten A according to what you both said.
The phrases with crotchets I wrote yesterday have stayed with me today, and I now think they would be fine for a song, just not fine for soloing in the idiom we're aiming for here.
Nice revision 10. In particular I liked 1. Your choice of simple and effective arps 2. Where you started phrases on the upbeat especially using the altered dominant
Personally I enjoy the revision process in composition which is where I learn the most.
Hi custard, definitely the learning starts here! Glad you liked it. I should probably practice it up. It is good practice for reading the chords without notes (only because I'm too lazy to write them). I used an altered dominant? Ah, do you mean a flattened 9th somewhere in an arp? I remember that a couple of times.
I like this one. You have a nice mix of scales and arpeggios. More 8th notes, longer phrases, repetition, some chromatic approaches. Very nice.
Keep using this recipe for the next tune. You might want to learn to play it a little better. Because that way, it's going to sink in more. It's really your own music, and very much what your improv will sound like later.
You can experiment with even longer 8th note lines. Also you can experiment with starting your lines before the first beat, which is common. Try starting on 4& or 3& sometimes.
All good points knotty. I suppose the work is involved in the process of going from 'here's a phrase I'm not all that happy with' to 'here's a phrase I like.' It's easy when there's time.
Hi custard, definitely the learning starts here! Glad you liked it. I should probably practice it up. It is good practice for reading the chords without notes (only because I'm too lazy to write them). I used an altered dominant? Ah, do you mean a flattened 9th somewhere in an arp? I remember that a couple of times.
Sorry for being totally unclear, I actually meant for the D min7 b5 bar, you emphasised the b5 which sounded good.
Yes I agree that the b9 sounds excellent over a dominant. It is very Sonny Rollins-esque.
Hi everyone I just did the math. Correct me if I am wrong but this thread has been going for 14 months. The average no. of reads is therefore 255 per day. This is hot.
Thanks to Dave for his awesome methodology, to Knotty for his detailed and clear guidance, and to Ten for being such a motivated student.
I did some recordings today. I still don't feel like I have a real handle on lesson 12, so I'll give them a few days before moving on. But for what they're worth:
I also worked a little on sleepy leaves. I'm especially glad that I can play this from LH chords, not notes. It seems to come quite automatically, probably more from memory than from actually knowing the chords.
I was just thinking the other day, how strong my fingers feel while playing, and I do put this down to the jazz hanons. The difference I notice is not so much in how I sound, but how I feel when I play. As I wrote in the thread started about technique, it's a physical pleasure now to play. I don't remember having that before from piano.
I know this is off-topic, but I need to play So what at this guitar party (aka recital) organised by my teacher on Wednesday evening. I am so looking forward to this being over. I could easily live without listening to Miles Davis ever again.
How's everyone? Knotty, you learning tunes? Custard, how's C min? Not two flat I hope.
Hi 10 Great postings. All very enjoyable. You can move onto Lesson 13 which I did not find easy. That was great that you played your composition so well. It would sound even more cool with a rhythm section IMO. But time to move on to Lesson 3 composition which again I did not find easy. You're racing through the lessons. Awesome work.
The only modal Miles Davis song I know is All Blues because Knotty played it. I really like it. And I love Miles Davis tonal improvs. I listen to them as he is often a soloist in the Bird tunes which I'm singing.
hehe, Scottish humour at its best ! I do like the sound of the C harm min scale.
I had very good intentions at the start of the week. I was going to compose over Lesson 7 Topsy in C min.
But regretfully I've not actually done any improv the last few days as I've had to arrange an unexpected overseas trip. When I get back in a few weeks time, I'm going to get my piano tuned. I'm looking forward to starting Lesson 29 tunes. Still on Lesson 20 Hanons.
Thanks guys! I had a real sense of pride doing sleepy leaves. I did sound an awful lot better once I played it decently.
If lesson 13 is also difficult, then I will spend more time here with 12. I have so many things I need to be doing, including guitar, and some classical piano, and really want to pay some attention to the Ligon book too.
My plan is to do a composition every fortnight.
I'm really working on keeping an open mind with Miles Davis.
Hanons - at lesson 12, yesterday I did up to 160 HT and 184 RH only. I think it was lesson 12, I had really struggled to keep hands together, and was tempted to drop the left. My hands were doing this strange symmetry thing around fingers 3 and 4 and getting confused. I'm glad I stuck at it, and now I'm back to normal (normal means there's 10-20 bpm difference between top speed HT and RH). I does just feel so good when I do it!
Apologies Ten for misleading you about Lesson 13. I just looked back at my stuff and in fact I was away for 3 weeks last year. In fact Lesson 13 was NOT difficult. You should be able to kinda race through it.
As a matter of interest, why do you love doing Hanons with both hands ? In the skype masterclass, we were told that the point of the Hanons is to do the RH at massive speed.
Apologies Ten for misleading you about Lesson 13. I just looked back at my stuff and in fact I was away for 3 weeks last year. In fact Lesson 13 was NOT difficult. You should be able to kinda race through it.
okey doke.
Quote:
As a matter of interest, why do you love doing Hanons with both hands ? In the skype masterclass, we were told that the point of the Hanons is to do the RH at massive speed.
For 10 minutes every day I sit and exercise my right hand. In that time, what am I to do with my left? Sit and pick my nose? Just feels like a waste of time for it not to play.
Yeah, I see what you mean. with the triplets, that would be really wild. Well, you could set your met on 180 for the RH and a second met on 120 for the LH.
Lesson 12 for RH and lesson 2 for LH? Db in RH against C in LH?
Now we're getting silly.
A shade more seriously, I realise how much these hanons are responsible for drilling the major scales into my fingers. Majors, but not minors. That leaves me with the slightly unsettled feeling that the minor scales will never be as secure. I suppose I could just compensate by playing a few scales. Anyone done these hanons in minor?
... For 10 minutes every day I sit and exercise my right hand. In that time, what am I to do with my left? Sit and pick my nose? Just feels like a waste of time for it not to play.
This is a tradeoff I have been struggling with, too. For a long time, I have wanted to improve my left hand technique, but I was not sure how to begin. After I had worked through the Hanons in JOI Book 1, I was so impressed with the results that I concluded this might help my LH too, so I stopped and started all over again using both hands. The downside of course is that RH is now playing much slower.
What I like about the JOI Hanons is that they seem to train your fingers to think freely and be more open to new ideas; my thumb no longer has a big hangup about playing black notes, it feels free to go and hit whatever note is crying out to be played, and give it a good whack. Also, they are more like jazz phrases, with triplets and sixteenths thrown in, than the original Hanons. I suppose they drill in the modes of the major scale, too, or at least the bottom five notes. Personally I feel that I have beat that dead horse quite a bit already; still, some refreshing can't hurt.
1. Confidence to shift the whole hand when playing tunes. No more of the thumb under. This is liberating.
2. Even without practising the LH, my LH is significantly faster than before I started JOI. This is because the 2nd half of the Hanon is a mirror image which subconsciously trains the brain.
1. Confidence to shift the whole hand when playing tunes. No more of the thumb under. This is liberating.
Really? I do a lot of thumb under. If I can't, I can't, and I do some lateral movement now - that wasn't previously in my vocab. But thumb under is still smoother.
Hi 10 I would have thought that thumb under would be smoother too. But try the lateral hand shift, you will be very surprised. It's a great technique for Book 2 when the tunes get harder.
Hi 10 I would have thought that thumb under would be smoother too. But try the lateral hand shift, you will be very surprised. It's a great technique for Book 2 when the tunes get harder.
Good point about these exercises facilitating lateral hand movement. I’ve noticed that and I’ve wondered about the relationship to thumb-over fingering.
WRT the comment about minor scales, I think they are covered, since the natural minors are modes of majors, and since all minors are the same if you only do the first five notes. However, that does bring up the fact that these exercises focus only on the bottom five notes, which leaves out some of the interesting and useful possibilities, e.g., the upper parts of bebop scales or harmonic minors, or even the modes of the major scales. I’ve also thought about playing these patterns over pentatonics, but that might involve some uncomfortable stretching, I’m not sure. They might work better over whole tone or diminished scales since they are not so spread out; I’m not sure how useful that would be.
For now, I have plenty to do. My plan du jour is to separate RH and LH and play them at their individual max speeds.
However, that does bring up the fact that these exercises focus only on the bottom five notes,
Not really, since you do notes root-5, then 2-6, followed by 3-7, 4-R, 5-2, 6-3, 7-4 and finish with R-5, before going back down. So it does cover the whole scale, but in steps.
I was thinking again of doing them also in minors. I know, in theory, the minor scale is just a mode of the major. But there's more to it than that. The raised 7th is a cognitive step beyond what I can think about when I'm playing - I need to make it automatic. It really is a mental thing rather than a physical. So when I'm doing C major, I'm thinking 'C major'. I'm not thinking 'A minor starting in a weird place'. And I probably do need to have harmonic and melodic minors at my finger tips equally as well as majors, which means I need to dedicate more time to minors, not less.
btw, I survived the guitar party yesterday. Will be glad to take a break from So What.
I'm very interested to see this method. I'm not exactly a beginner jazz student, but I do teach. And I, as of yet, not come across a true method (such as Faber or Alfred) for jazz that I truly like.
Do you truly like Faber and Alfred? I've not seen them, but so far I've not seen any method book for anything that I truly like. They can be useful, though, provided no-one expects them to do everything. They can only facilitate.
Jazz is doubly difficult, I think, to prescribe activities that will lead to the learner being able to play jazz.
From what I can gather, JOI seems to work mostly on the principle of absorption. Bit like immersion for language learning.
Yeah, I like Faber and Alfred. No, I don't expect them to do everything. (I should hope not, anyway, then I'd be out of a job!) You're absolutely correct, they are there to facilitate. But the teacher must be good enough to recognize what needs more work, other strategies to learning, etc.
But even THAT I haven't found in the jazz idiom. Half the books I see start in the first chapter saying "learn all the scales in all keys starting on all scale degrees". Well, thanks. LOL. THAT'S not overwhelming at all...
Half the books I see start in the first chapter saying "learn all the scales in all keys starting on all scale degrees". Well, thanks. LOL. THAT'S not overwhelming at all...
On another topic, I'm going mad with shoe shine boy (Lester Young). Not quite half way into his solo there seem to be a couple bars with 5 beats. I've been on this for two weeks, and avoided that bit. Just now I pinned him down as best I could and I still get some wayward beats. Can someone please listen and tell me if I'm right?
Hey, I'm thinking somebody oughtta talk to the moderators about banning you, based on the NO BLATANT ADVERTISING rule. Seriously, yer makin' Dave's teaching methods look awfully good.
Just kidding (about the banning part). That was terrific, an inspiration!
Thanks, there's something very special about Bird that hasn't happened yet for me with anyone else. Each time you take a new solo and you start really digging into it, it feels like the best solo ever played. And then each single line seems like exactly what was to be played at the moment.
This is one of the easier ones to play, tempo wise, around 200 is where Bird plays mostly 8th notes and you can kind of keep up. Anything in the 120-180 and it's mostly 16th. Then stuff in the upper 200 is just really fast. Dave would say "It's a mother!!"
Hi TF, glad to have you back. I remember Lullaby of the leaves working fairly well over the chords of #2. Just the timing was a bit tricky in the bridge section.
Edit: I just made a recording of chords (from the book) and voice. Tune is way out of range so my singing is terrible.
>> I've started playing again. I'm working on Lesson #2 (book one - is there really a book 3?). there's no book 3 . This is a transcription of Charlie Parker. You can find them in a book called Omnibook or work them out yourself.
>> I'm curious about "The Joy of C". I read somewhere in the thread it's based on "Lullaby of the Leaves", but the bridge seems totally different. How is it totally different?
I'm not familiar with Lullaby of the Leaves at all, so I was curious. In the version I have bars 3 and 4 (of the bridge) are C major rather than C minor, then the next four bars are a repeat before going back to part A. I'm thinking bars 5-8 are a reharmonization. I think LT plays major there (in bar 3 and 4) also, but my ear's not that great. Here's another example: Lullaby of the Leaves Anyway, I'm basing my composition on The Joy of C.
Do you recommend Omnibook at this early stage (lesson 2 of book 1)? If so, do you recommend a particular one to start with?
The voicing of the day in Lesson 2 is E+7. Here is an II-V-I improv in E. I'm sticking to chord tones and the E major scale and heavy on the quarter notes. This is a first take. It's very tempting to try and polish it but that would kind of defeat the purpose. This way I hope to hear improvement as I work my way through the book.
You might be right. I think I remember DF saying something about major vs minor on that tune.
I don't recommend omnibook yet. I started after completing the hanons in book 2. Best is to sing with solos for now.
You actually don't need the book at all. But if you're a good reader, you'll learn Bird solos much faster with the book. I just started Clifford Brown, and it's completely insane. I really don't know how he got those ideas.
For the improv, best is to stick to the method for now. I'm not a big fan of the whole chord tone, downbeat, quarter note and all that. You'd typically start improv on 2-5-1 around lesson 20 or 25 I think. At around lesson 13 or 15, it's good to start on the composition. By the time you start improv, you have all the tools you need to make very quick progress, rather than focusing on concepts that don't really matter. If you do like 10 is doing, you can really move through the lessons quite quickly. You have to be patient with this method, but it pays out faster than other methods, and it pays big.
Singing with solos is critical. The earlier the better. Voicings, you can go through them fast. Like one lesson a week, or even slightly faster. When you are done with those, you can start arranging your own tunes. Playing and singing the tunes is critical. Hanons are critical.
That should keep you busy at least an hour a day for now. If you have more time than that, perhaps we can find something else to keep you busy.
I'm not familiar with Lullaby of the Leaves at all, so I was curious. In the version I have bars 3 and 4 (of the bridge) are C major rather than C minor, then the next four bars are a repeat before going back to part A. I'm thinking bars 5-8 are a reharmonization. I think LT plays major there (in bar 3 and 4) also, but my ear's not that great. Here's another example: Lullaby of the Leaves Anyway, I'm basing my composition on The Joy of C.
Hi time flies. Most of these standards are completely new to me when I do them in the book. There is a point in the bridge where your youtube clip is major and I go minor, based on Dave's book. I think there are these changes in anyone's rendition of a standard, and JOI is no exception.
Quote:
Here is an II-V-I improv in E. I'm sticking to chord tones and the E major scale and heavy on the quarter notes. This is a first take. It's very tempting to try and polish it but that would kind of defeat the purpose. This way I hope to hear improvement as I work my way through the book.
You clearly have a lot of skill at the outset. It will be good for you to compare this with what you can do after going through the book. As knotty said, patience is the key. The plan is you complete about the first 13 lessons before starting composing. That takes time. Then a certain amount of composing before improvising. (I'm trying not to think about that just now).
It seems to be important to do the lessons as stated, that is with singing the tune lines while playing, also the hanons, and singing the jazz solos with the masters. I decided from the outset that if I wanted to improvise, I would improvise, but I now call it 'noodling' or 'messing around' and I don't think of it as part of my JOI work.
Update: I've officially given up on Shoe Shine boy. Lester's sense of timing has got the better of me. I may come back to this one, so far I just did 8 bars. Moving on to lesson 13, and excited to do some Charlie Christian!
I discovered by accident a new way to improvise. Here's what you need to do: - Get narked off with life, and wait till you're catching a cold. - Sit at the piano and sight-read something fast with lots of accidentals. (Totally blue, lesson 13 is ideal). - Play loud and fast. Don't worry about hitting the right notes. Just hit something. If it sounds bad, hit it another few times so it sounds like you meant it.
I got excellent results, and am considering my own publication based on this method.
I also had my cornet reconditioned. I'm unbelievably badly out of shape. Hoping it won't take too long to get a reasonable range.
I will tow the line, stick to the program (and unlearn the little I know that I learned elsewhere). But I've almost finished a composition for lesson 2 and would like to complete it. I have no rep except what I can sightread and I'm having a lot of fun with these compositions. My purpose is to write something I can actually play for someone. But, after lesson 2 I won't do it anymore. Now back to lesson two.
Ten, Gyro may already have rights to that method How many instruments to you play? I liked your guitar comping on AL - nice chords.
Nice going time flies! Glad to see you posting your progress here. I will point out what knotty pointed out to me. in Joy of C, bar 24 there is what is printed as a triplet. You play it evenly as a triplet. However, in the CD, Dave plays this as eighth + sixteenth + sixteenth. It's a little jauntier. This carries on through the book, some triplets are played as triplets and some aren't.
Do you also sing along? (Even if you don't record it).
How are the hanons going? I can't tell you the difference these have made to my fingers. It took some time to get used to all the different shapes in the different keys.
I learned piano and cornet as a child. Cornet had the advantage of playing in bands/orchestras/ensembles. As a student I played recorder in a ceilidh band. I don't think recorder can count really because it's so darn easy. Over the last few years I have taken up guitar. I would like to feel competent on guitar. My plan for this year had been to learn to play the bodhran I got for Christmas, but I figure I put my family through enough as it is. If I could play bodhran then I could do one of those Mike Oldfield videos, playing all the different instruments overdubbed.
That sounded really good. Be sure so sing with the tunes. With LH accompaniment at first. Then without. If you don't want to record yourself singing, that's fine but just be sure to do it.
Then, as long as you know the tunes and can sing them, you can move through them faster than you move through the hanons. Once in a while, it's good to go back to an old lesson and just sing the tune.
Is everyone playing the hanons in all keys? I've been leaving out keys with five or more accidentals. A mistake?
I find them the easiest, after C. I would suggest you do them all. Don't put on pressure to do all at the same speed, though. I think the idea is when you come to improvise, you don't need to think about what key you're in.
Finally got the book (yay!). Making my way through. There's a lot more reading at the beginning than I thought there would be. LOL. Hopefully I'll finish the essay portion and move on to the lessons soon enough (today/tomorrow).
Help! I've got this melody running through my head and I can't get rid of it. It's the last thing I hear before going to sleep and the first thing I hear when I wake up and its with me all day. Sure, it's a nice tune but I'm going crazy! tune
Ten, you're probably right about that. I'm trying to expand my vocal range. If I can get it up to an octave I'll be able to sing through these without resorting to whistling, humming, buzzing, mono scat and who knows what. I'm learning "The Last Time" now. I'm still not ready to move on to lesson 3 yet.
I don't think it really matters how bad the scatting, whistling, etc is. I do know how annoying it is to get those hanons in your head and not be able to get them out. My husband said to me yesterday, please don't play those funny scale things. I really don't think I can take it just now. I do try to play them when everyone's out, but sometimes there is just no time. Away tomorrow for a week with no piano, no guitar. I've been promised clean Atlantic air. Maybe blow the cobwebs away.
Hmmm...this might be a good time to post some singing. The fewest number of people would be injured.
Another musician moved into my community, a tenor sax player. I've invited him over. (I don't know if he'll come though). His favorite sax player is Coleman Hawkins and his favorite tune is Body & Soul. Has your jazz ensemble played Body & Soul? My fakebook version is in Db with the bridge in D. Does that mean a tenor sax player would play in B and C?
>>Hmmm...this might be a good time to post some singing. The fewest number of people would be injured. I'm sure it'll be better than me. Somewhere in this thread, I posted Charlie Parker on kazoo ...
>> Has your jazz ensemble played Body & Soul? We have, but it's a very difficult tune. Coleman Hawkins is great.
>>My fakebook version is in Db with the bridge in D I think that's the common key it's played in.
>> Does that mean a tenor sax player would play in B and C? Tenors are usually in Bb, so it would be Eb and E. Clarinets are the same. Altos are usually in Eb while flutes are normally in C. I say usually because there are some rare exceptions.
I just discovered Google+ This is a mix of facebook, skype and twitter. The main difference with facebook is that you can create circles, and share things only with certain circles.
The main difference with Skype is that you can do "Hangouts" which is essentially video conferencing. You can start a hangout when you play, and anyone on-line can decide to join your hangout and just watch you play.
I'm thinking of doing "hangouts" of us playing on jam evenings. So anyone in my music circle can come check us out.
Far out!! Way, way out. It's the future man!! (where's the smiley face smoking a joint?)
Therefore, I would like to create a JOI circle on google+ At this point, I'm not sure how easy it is to join because google's got it on some kind of invite system. But this thing is really promising!!
Again, adding people to the JOI circle will NOT give access to your private photos, work life, or any other crazy stuff you're into!! NOT like facebook.
You will need an account on google before you can join, probably a gmail address. I'm not sure.
Half the books I see start in the first chapter saying "learn all the scales in all keys starting on all scale degrees". Well, thanks. LOL. THAT'S not overwhelming at all...
Yikes! That's what I feel like I'm doing daily with Frank's JazzHanon exercises. I'm not overwhelmed.... yet. But I do have some questions:
I tend to "decode - memorize - noodle" when I play with the Blues and Jazz tunes in JOI. Is that cool? Are we supposed to memorize all 52 tunes in Volume one? Or should I develop some sight reading skills?
Hi Norm Welcome to JOI and this joint. I agree with Knotty, no need to memorise the JOI tunes; as you sing/ internalise them, they will be infused into you.
I included you in a post, which should send you an invite. It doesn't always work. Maybe Scot can send you one too, and increase the chance.
Welcome back, wherever you are
Thank you Knots. I think I'm back in Sydney now. I checked all my inboxes and don't seem to have received your invite. Scot - could you please send me the invite too ? Thanks.
I tried again. You'll probably just end up receiving all the invites at once. And even then, sometimes it tells you that you can't join. I hope they open it up fast ...
Thank you Knotty and Scot. I've received both your invites but I got this message from google + "Already invited? We've temporarily exceeded our capacity. Please try again soon." I will try again tonight.
On another note, the music store I work for has been trying to get volume II of JOI for the past three weeks or so and Hal Leonard has been telling them they are out of stock. If Dave stops by (or if someone is in contact with him), it might be something to look in to.
hehe, I blame Knotty for publicising google+ on this popular thread. Still can't get in tonight. Anyway I've put down ALL my email addresses on the waiting list.
Hi Dave Don't know about Hal Leonard but here is my feedback on your Amazon US supplier for your albums. I always have to wait 3-4 weeks for my albums from Amazon US to physically arrive, however for your albums I only have to wait just over a week. This is amazing for delivery to Australia.
The main difference with Skype is that you can do "Hangouts" which is essentially video conferencing. You can start a hangout when you play, and anyone on-line can decide to join your hangout and just watch you play.
I'm thinking of doing "hangouts" of us playing on jam evenings. So anyone in my music circle can come check us out.
Can 2 people play at once ? Like if you and Dave were to do a duet.
Also do you know how many people can participate in a hang-out ? Does the person who created the hang-out notify the others in his circle ?
>> Can 2 people play at once ? Like if you and Dave were to do a duet. I assume yes, but I don't know how the lag is. If you wanna give it a shot, we can.
>> Also do you know how many people can participate in a hang-out ? Apparently, 10.
>> Does the person who created the hang-out notify the others in his circle ? Yes, you can notify circle you like.
Dave, thanks for the Master Class on Oscar Peterson. This was my first. Very clear presentation which helps me understand Oscar's playing better. I especially liked the Target Notes on the dim scale and 3rds on altered and dim scales. I am going to start LH practice on the Hanons and scales. Nice singing by the way. Also very cool performance on the first video.
Thanks for the encouragement. I'm greatly enjoying Dave's video lessons/master classes (Liberace! is next), and I'm almost ready to move on to lesson two of JOI. The phrases are starting to flow, and I look forward to building more elaborate sentences with them -- It's a bit like Berlitz. The process of infusion and internalization sounds a bit surgical, though. It won't hurt, will it?
Knotty - which fakebook does your group use? I have the Hal leonard Ultimate Jazz fakebook but I don't really like it and I need to buy a Bb edn. I noticed in the photos of your band, the music was printed out nicer - with line breaks in logical places, etc.
>> Can 2 people play at once ? Like if you and Dave were to do a duet. I assume yes, but I don't know how the lag is. If you wanna give it a shot, we can.
Great idea Knots. I know you do a great improv over Scrapple from the Apple. We can try this song - I can use Dave's chord voicings and tune, while you solo.
Hey Scot Are you still around ? I don't know what level you're at but you're welcome to try with Knots, and I'll just sit out during the hang-out.
Hey 10 I've disappeared from your circle. Please add me.
Hey 10 I've disappeared from your circle. Please add me.
Goodness! I had no idea I had a circle. I'm afraid I don't know how to add someone. Listen, I think I need to start from scratch and read the posts from while I was away. Carefully this time.
Edit: First thing, do we each need to have circles with each other in them, or can just one of us have a JOI circle and invite the others?
Second thing: a hangout is not the same as a circle. Not quite sure how they relate.
I am available on Sunday to try a get-together, not Saturday. Anyone else got time on Sunday?
Hey Scot Are you still around ? I don't know what level you're at but you're welcome to try with Knots, and I'll just sit out during the hang-out.
Still here. knotty and I jammed a little over the weekend. Just a few choruses over a blues, but he can probably give an estimation of my level. I'd say intermediate to advanced-intermediate.
As far as real books, I have the Sher volumes. Then I also have the OLD real books that used to be just passed around. They're, like, the worst ever for accuracy, but the best ever for tune/standard/repertoire inclusion.
>>Is that this one? >>http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/06340...;pf_rd_i=468294 That's the version in Bb. For piano, get the one in C.
Circles are something that everyone has, but noone shares. If Laura adds me to a circle, then I will see the posts that you share with that circle. If I add you to a circle, you will see the post that I share with that circle. It's not like friends where it goes both ways.
I created a JOI circle and added the folks from here.
I also have family circles, acquaintance, etc... You can have people in all the circles you want.
OK. Please someone check my geography and calculations.
9am for knotty (New York) will be 11pm for custard (Sydney) and 2pm for me (UK summertime). Scot, are you in the same zone as knotty? Time flies, I think that's 4pm for you - I don't know if you're working or able to join us. If Sunday doesn't suit, we can do a different day on a different occasion. Norman - your profile says 'PA' but I have no idea where that is. Wanna join?
Have I missed anyone? As ever, we can PM in case anyone wants to give an email, but not post it publicly to the world.
Dave, you are very welcome to join us, but we totally understand if you have more exciting things to do on a Sunday morning.
It would be exciting if we really can play together.
Hey Scot Are you still around ? I don't know what level you're at but you're welcome to try with Knots, and I'll just sit out during the hang-out.
Still here. knotty and I jammed a little over the weekend. Just a few choruses over a blues, but he can probably give an estimation of my level. I'd say intermediate to advanced-intermediate.
Cool ! Can't wait to hear you and Knots jam. But I think I should go 1st as I haven't jammed before. A hangout session should get better and better IMO rather than go downhill.
>>>>However, I am trying to get away from playing tunes I have not memorized. >>That could end up being a bit limiting. I don't really think so. I think we forget to memorize tunes, and that's why we don't. The most complex tune shouldn't take more than a day or 2 to memorize, if you actually work on memorizing it.
>>>>However, I am trying to get away from playing tunes I have not memorized. >>That could end up being a bit limiting. I don't really think so. I think we forget to memorize tunes, and that's why we don't. The most complex tune shouldn't take more than a day or 2 to memorize, if you actually work on memorizing it.
Interesting. I have never worked on memorizing. When I played classically I memorized without trying and ended up relying on muscle memory. Sight-reading skills were appalling. That's one reason I try now to keep moving on to the next thing. But it does mean I rely on the music...
One thing I noticed, taking a break and coming back to it, is that I can sometimes play the LH chords without notes. When I compose, I just write in the chords. There are a very few I need to go back and learn, most I just play. I haven't made any effort to memorize these.
>> But I think I should go 1st as I haven't jammed before. A hangout session should get better and better IMO rather than go downhill. You're funny! So is that what we're going to try and do? Jam?
10, I think the big difference between memorizing classical and chord changes is the difficulty. How difficult is it to learn the changes to Autumn Leaves, the Blues, What is this thing called love, and even All the things you are? It doesn't take that much. It's very little information. Autumn leaves is 251 in Bb, followed by 251 in G-. Remember how many times each come (or just sing the melody in your head), and you've got it memorized. You don't need any book for that. Even difficult ones like Giant Steps. If you need the book for it, you're better off not playing it, don't you think?
That said, just knowing the changes doesn't mean you've internalized them. That takes a little bit more time.
>> But I think I should go 1st as I haven't jammed before. A hangout session should get better and better IMO rather than go downhill. You're funny! So is that what we're going to try and do? Jam?
Whatever you wish Knotty. Thanks for adding everyone to your JOI circle and for hosting it. A friend who composes House music said inevitably there will be a time lag, I think he said a few milliseconds. We can test whether you can live with it when jamming. Otherwise you and Scot can trade 4s or solo.
Your Clifford Brown is impressive. I've just started singing Fats Navarro, I love it. I noticed my next master is Clifford Brown and I'm really looking forward to it.
An attempt at some Clifford Brown. Gotta keep myself busy ...
That's impressive knotty! You're his shadow. A while ago I wouldn't have realised how much time it takes to do that. Now, to really keep yourself busy, you could do another recording at 70% speed.
I've been doing some shadowing on guitar, as well as the JOI sing-along. It is very, very time-consuming.
10, I think the big difference between memorizing classical and chord changes is the difficulty. How difficult is it to learn the changes to Autumn Leaves, the Blues, What is this thing called love, and even All the things you are? It doesn't take that much. It's very little information. Autumn leaves is 251 in Bb, followed by 251 in G-. Remember how many times each come (or just sing the melody in your head), and you've got it memorized. You don't need any book for that. Even difficult ones like Giant Steps. If you need the book for it, you're better off not playing it, don't you think?
Interesting perspective. Memorizing classical took no time at all. Learning to play it, was another story. Memorizing jazz - maybe I'll try and see how close I already am.
>> Interesting perspective. Memorizing classical took no time at all. Learning to play it, was another story. Memorizing jazz - maybe I'll try and see how close I already am. Take a simple tune you're learning, and make it a point to memorize the chord changes. I bet it won't take you more than 5 minutes. If you recall it every week for 3 or 4 weeks, I think you will never forget it again.
>> Now, to really keep yourself busy, you could do another recording at 70% speed. For playing, 70% is actually much easier, that's where I start and I slowly move it up to 100%. Played at about 90%, I'm a lot closer to him. But at 70%, you can really hear all the nuances he plays much more clearly. He will often lay back on a couple notes. There's a lot more to this little exercise than meets the eye. But strictly from a technique / speed point of view, it's a good exercise. The jumps are not easy and some fingering is very tricky. It's as if this wasn't written for piano!!
Yup, and I really like your you-tube version of Lady Bird. I did a composition for the Eb maj 7 - C min 6 progression, and I noticed it changed my style. I think it's different from Bird's style, do you think so ?
But I think I should go 1st as I haven't jammed before. A hangout session should get better and better IMO rather than go downhill.
duh! I just suddenly realised what this means! I'm not sure we will be able to jam if the geographical distance is great. Give it a go, custard. I'm willing if someone tells me what to do.
Knotty, I just listened to the new music you put up. It is so impressive. I haven't heard your ensemble in quite a while. It sounds like a different group - and you seem to have moved up to a whole new level. I hope you leave those up on box net for awhile. I especially like What Is This, Softly, and So What, and really nice dynamics on So What.
I won't be able to join the group Sunday. I haven't been able to get on google+ - maybe there's an age limit .
Jazz pianist Alan Broadbent is moving from LA to NY. I mention it because, according to the LA Times, Alan is a Berklee graduate and student of Lenny Tristano - maybe Dave knows him.
I've started lesson 3 and am also working on Body & Soul. I want to be able to play along with my new neighbor. He plays a very good tenor sax. I'm going to try and comp and maybe do a simple solo.
Yeah I liked them all too. Wasn't Softly terrific ? You don't hear this pre-bop style much these days. I can just imagine Knots in one of those funny old blue suits in a swing era band.
You can download all these songs from boxnet.
Knots And I really liked your up-tempo bop version of Solar. So What sounded like you had a lot of fun with modal. The question is "What can't you do ? "
Time Flies I'm sorry you can't hangout with us. It's going to be so much fun. Do you not have a gmail address or is google+ temporarily full ? Did you do a Composition 2 ? I enjoyed your Composition 1 a lot.
Thanks for introducing me to Alan Broadbent. This dude has some great chops especially when he did the classical stuff towards the end.
I'm not sure I'll be able to make the jam this morning. Band practice this afternoon requires me packing up the keyboard and reviewing some of the tunes this morning.
you need a gmail account to get access to google+. Should be real fast.. (as in less than 25 minutes)
>>Jazz pianist Alan Broadbent is moving from LA to NY. I mention it because, according to the LA Times, Alan is a Berklee graduate and student of Lenny Tristano - maybe Dave knows him. Alan is one of the best jazz pianists out there. He's also a monster of theory, arrangement, harmony and teaching. If you have a chance to get a lesson from him, I would do it. He used to publish in PianoToday and his stuff was really well laid out.
Thanks for the complements on my tunes. I appreciate it. All I hear is the mistakes, so I'm happy to hear someone liked it
Hey ! How hot was the g+ session. I was particularly impressed with the visual quality, and that there were no echoes.
Knots Thanks for looking into this awesome technology and for guiding us through JOI. I can't wait to nail the Eb maj - C min progression. I love how you just surprised us by pulling out the walking bass from your bag of tricks when you were doing the improv.
Norm Please accept my apologies for missing out on your JOI tunes due to my problems with installing the plug-in. I'm really pleased you've chosen JOI as your methodology. Stick with it and you can't go wrong.
Laura I still can't get over how quickly you do those compositions. You will start catching up with me for the improv.
Very cool stuff indeed. Cus, you've improved a lot since the Skype session. Your lines were perfect.
Laura, I echo Cus' comment. You are really fast. All this classical background is paying off big time for you.
Norm, You had that blues really nailed. Slow down the tune and learn it measure by measure. I was never able to play any of those tunes at 120 and they took me a while to memorize also.
I thought G+ was much better than Skype. No hic-up at all, and very decent lag. And all for free! Google does it again.
It's amazing how communications have developed that now we can have free hi-tech transcontinental jam sessions! Still as a beginner, I'm grateful for and humbled by the fact that I received much more than I was able to dish out.
Knotty Thanks for the feedback and instruction. You gave your all and performed beautifully. And now I must remember the words of:
Aesop: Slow and Steady wins the race.... Simon: Slow down, you move too fast.. Two-Ton-Baker-da-Music-Maker: Baby I'm built for comfort, I ain't built for speed...
So I'll drink plenty of fluids, get my rest, and set the metronome to 50.
Laura Thanks for the advice on fingering the JazzHanons. A little while back I was practicing Andantino, one of Stravinsky's five finger pieces -- so I suppose the JazzHanon fingering will be a little like that. As in Yoga, you surrender to the pose to gain length, strength and flexibility. And as noted, what's comfortable isn't always healthy, and what's healthy isn't always what's comfortable (with apologies to Two-Ton-Baker).
Cus Thanks for your encouragement and dedication. What you've done in a year and a half, I'd be happy to do in five. As we say, It's the journey, not the destination. My fa
please someone help
That was just a step too far.
