G7+5(b9) chord

Posted by: Tango

G7+5(b9) chord - 08/07/10 05:13 PM

Hello All,Could someone please tell me what notes make up the chord G7+5(b9)?
I looked online and could not find it.What does the (+) mean?Thank you.
Posted by: Steve Nixon

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 08/07/10 05:37 PM

This is also known as a G7alt. chord. Here are the notes that are in there there.




G B D F Ab Eb


Here's a basic voicing for it.

RH: F Ab B Eb

L.H: G
Posted by: Inlanding

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 08/07/10 06:08 PM

The + sign then the number means augmented. The b sign and the number means flatted.
Posted by: Exalted Wombat

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 08/07/10 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Steve Nixon
This is also known as a G7alt. chord. Here are the notes that are in there there.

G B D F Ab Eb


You sure about that? :-) The +5 would be D#, and there wouldn't be a Dnat as well. Though "alt" can mean just about anything, it typically means a chord with both a b5 and #5.

G7+(b9) would have sufficed. "+" always refers to the 5th, unless stated otherwise.
Posted by: Elssa

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 08/08/10 12:00 AM

+5 or #5 = augmented chord.

"Augmented Chord Profile
An augmented chord can be thought of as a major triad with an augmented (raised) fifth degree or 5. Augmented chords are classed as dissonant and unstable, which means they are wanting to resolve, but not necessarily to the root. A strange thing about augmented chords is that the triad can be inverted, but it will always produce the same chord. For instance: C augmented chord is made up of the notes C-E-G#, but the same notes belong to the chords E+ and G#+, which means they are enharmonic to one another."


http://guitar.ricmedia.com/Lessons/Augmented-chord/

Posted by: R0B

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 08/08/10 12:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Elssa
+5 or #5 = augmented chord.

"Augmented Chord Profile
For instance: C augmented chord is made up of the notes C-E-G, but the same notes belong to the chords E+ and G+, which means they are enharmonic to one another."


I think this should read:
C augmented chord is made up of the notes C-E-G#, but the same notes belong to the chords E+ and G#+, which means they are enharmonic to one another
Posted by: Elssa

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 08/08/10 12:26 AM

Yes, what I copied didn't show/copy everything for some strange reason. I was in the process of fixing it. smile

http://guitar.ricmedia.com/Lessons/Augmented-chord/

Posted by: R0B

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 08/08/10 12:53 AM

My apologies, Elssa :-)

It seems the website you quoted is using non-standard fonts for the # symbol.

Anyway, back to the OP's question,
the scale degrees for the chord are 1,3 #5, b7, b9.

Rob
Posted by: Elssa

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 08/08/10 01:03 AM

Thanks for catching that, Rob. Yes, crazy fonts there, I guess. smile


Augmented Chords:
http://jazz.suite101.com/article.cfm/augmented_chords



The Augmented Scale:
Also called the whole tone scale, the augmented scale consists of nothing but whole tones




Posted by: AJF

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 08/08/10 01:17 AM

In 'modern' jazz players DO quite often play a natural 5 as well as a raised 5 on a 7+5 chord. It kind of like thinking of the +5 as a b13. These extensions and alterations, when indicated as a chord symbol, are not generally regarded as THE chord but more a suggested colour pallete for the harmony and most advanced players use those chord symbols only as a guideline how to construct the basic colour of the harmony.
When you see G7alt for instance, the notes you're going to voice in the chord are derived from the altered scale (7th mode of melodic minor). So really, just about any combination of notes from that scale will constitute G7alt. Traditionally you'll want at the very least a root, third and seventh with some sort of altered nine and a b13. One of Herbie Hancock's common 'fully stacked' altered dominant voicings would look like: LH- 7,#9,3,b13 RH- b9,#11,1.
Eg. G7 would be (from bottom to top) F, A#,B,Eb-Ab,C#,G. That's the whole altered scale redistributed between the hands. There are a lot of voicing possibilities when you think of harmony this way--the redistribution of notes in a scale.
Posted by: Steve Nixon

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 08/08/10 08:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Originally Posted By: Steve Nixon
This is also known as a G7alt. chord. Here are the notes that are in there there.

G B D F Ab Eb


You sure about that? :-) The +5 would be D#, and there wouldn't be a Dnat as well. Though "alt" can mean just about anything, it typically means a chord with both a b5 and #5.

G7+(b9) would have sufficed. "+" always refers to the 5th, unless stated otherwise.


Yes, I'm sure about that. Remember I'm not thinking of + as a "5th" I'm thinking of it as a "b13". Also, some players will use the natural 5 and the b13 at the same time. What's stated in the chord scale theory books is often times not what is really played. I have lots of transcriptions of Bill Evans playing the 5th and b13 at the same time. It's a particularly interesting color. You probably don't want to use it all the time but I kind of dig it in certain instances.
You are correct though that the altered scale would not have a natural 5th in there. The voicing I stated in my original post. I didn't put a 5th in that one. I could have though smile It's just taste I suppose.
There are the rules and then there is just sounds we like smile
Posted by: Steve Nixon

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 08/08/10 08:28 AM

Originally Posted By: AJF
In 'modern' jazz players DO quite often play a natural 5 as well as a raised 5 on a 7+5 chord. It kind of like thinking of the +5 as a b13. These extensions and alterations, when indicated as a chord symbol, are not generally regarded as THE chord but more a suggested colour pallete for the harmony and most advanced players use those chord symbols only as a guideline how to construct the basic colour of the harmony.


Right! smile
Posted by: AJF

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 08/08/10 10:12 PM

However, if we want to be 'by the book' a G7+5 b9 DOES not include a D natural. Although the #5 and b13 are enharmonically the same note they DO function differently. If you include a natural 5 and a b13 in a voicing it implies the Mixolydian b6 or 5th mode of the Harmonic minor scale. Whereas indicating a #5 indicates NO natural 5 therefore indicating the Altered scale or Whole tone scale (depending on which 9th you want to outline)
Posted by: beeboss

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 08/09/10 06:47 AM

Originally Posted By: AJF
If you include a natural 5 and a b13 in a voicing it implies the Mixolydian b6 or 5th mode of the Harmonic minor scale.


Or maybe the 3rd mode of the harmonic major, that is a sound I particularly like.
Posted by: AJF

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 08/09/10 03:32 PM

Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: AJF
If you include a natural 5 and a b13 in a voicing it implies the Mixolydian b6 or 5th mode of the Harmonic minor scale.


Or maybe the 3rd mode of the harmonic major, that is a sound I particularly like.


Definately. I really like that one too. Thanks for the reminder:)
Posted by: keyboardplaying1

Re: G7+5(b9) chord - 09/21/10 02:50 PM

You could play the upper structure for this chord:

Right Hand: G sharp minor triad
Left Hand: B and F (the tritone of G7)

should give you a nice unique sound