Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question

Posted by: jawhitti

Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/13/13 12:16 AM

I just got the JOI books last week and got to spend time with them today. They are certainly humbling - while the theory in volume one is all familiar stuff even the first jazz Hanon exercise was tricky.

I do have a question about how they are intended to be practiced. There's a note on page 28 that says "maintain the same fingering at each scale degree, in all keys, ascending and descending, even if it feels awkward". I would play the first measure of the first exercise in Bb as 2123 4212, then 1234 5321 for the second measure. Is the point of the note in the text that I should use the same fingering any time I'm playing from the same root note regardless of key? if I transpose the exercise to F or Db I should be playing the figure as 2123 4212 every time Bb is the root even though some of the notes will be different in the different keys? I guess that would make sense, but I'm certainly not convinced I am using the best fingerings, I'm tempted to practice holding the root and root finger constant and playing through all the variations at that degree. The note sounds to me like "if you are playing the sixth degree the fingering should always be the same" which doesn't seem right - I would never finger Bb the same as A or C.

How are you all approaching the fingerings?

Incidentally, I think I like the book. I start lessons again in a week or two and am going to try to convince my instructor to work through it with me. I also have gotten a lot out of Phil DeGreg's book "Jazz Keyboard Harmony". It's got a bit more theory and a different set of exercises more geared to getting common chord changes under your hands. It's been helpful to me and I think it meshes very nicely with JOI. Adding Levine to the mix gives you almost everything you could want, I think, though I find Levine to be almost cryptic sometimes.
Posted by: davefrank

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/13/13 12:37 AM

anyone?

DF
Posted by: jawhitti

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/13/13 12:56 AM

Originally Posted By: davefrank
anyone?

DF


Dave if you know anyone that can divine the author's intent that would be great!
Posted by: davefrank

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/13/13 04:03 AM

the fingering remains the same for each degree. In the first hanon, for example, it's 12345321 12345321 et al, descending 54321345 54321345..it's a bit awkward at first, then you get used to it and it is very freeing in terms of using the thumbs creatively and breaking classical fingering habits.

DF
Posted by: jawhitti

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/13/13 09:41 AM

But... but...All that painstaking work learning to get comfortable with classical fingering. I think I'm gonna throw up.

Thanks Dave. I will try it out. I can see why this would make sense for improv so you don't get caught out with 5 on Ab wanting to play Bb as your next note. My classical teacher will be horrified wink
Posted by: davefrank

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/13/13 09:47 AM

keep the jazz and classical worlds separate in your brain, classical training is fine for classical but limiting for jazz. Maybe go to your next classical lesson , walk in smokin a doobie with a hip pair of shades, go directly to the piano and put your thumb on Gb and say to your teacher "Que pasa, pops?"

DF
Posted by: jawhitti

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/13/13 10:13 AM

LOL. My teacher is pretty young (mid 30s) and a wonderful musician and instructor with a PhD performance degree from UT Austin. Very much the "repressed music major" type though. I think he already hates that he has to deal with a dirty plebe like me. Calling him "Pops" might push him over the edge...
Posted by: landorrano

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/13/13 11:16 AM

Hey Daddy-o!

If I am not mistaken, regular, square Hanon is executed that way too, slapping the same fingering down on all degrees.

O' rooty? Gotta split!
Posted by: davefrank

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/13/13 01:05 PM

yeah, but it's only in C bubbie..
Posted by: landorrano

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/13/13 01:53 PM

"C bubbie"?
Posted by: davefrank

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/13/13 02:52 PM

A yiddish sailor
Posted by: ten left thumbs

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/13/13 03:02 PM

jawhitti - nothing will prepare your fingers for classical better than Dave's hanons. After that, classical fingering seems sooooo tame.
Posted by: landorrano

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/13/13 04:04 PM

Originally Posted By: davefrank
A yiddish sailor


And an old one at that.
Posted by: landorrano

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/14/13 08:24 AM

Good afternoon. This is certainly beside the point, still I believe that square Hanon was meant to be played in all keys and using the same fingering. In any case, it is used that way by some. As one fellow I know says, if it's just to be played as written, then what's the point!

I hadn't realized that the swinging jazz Hanon that is mentioned is Dave's work.
Posted by: RonL

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/15/13 01:21 PM

Ah Jazz Hanons - how many enjoyable hours have I spent on them. Fingering stays the same no matter what.

I am now on my second time through them all, once a day I do one in two hands at 120 - 130 BPM then right hand alone at challenge tempo - and it depends on the Hanon if I can get to 200 BPM.

It's funny you mention the DeGreg book - I have been working through that book for the past year - every day I take one of the turn arounds or voicing examples and work it through all the keys. It is one of the best voicing books out there IMHO.
Posted by: Cudo

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/15/13 01:30 PM

Originally Posted By: landorrano
still I believe that square Hanon was meant to be played in all keys and using the same fingering.

That´s true. The fingering over rides the black and white keys.
But Hanon feels only square when you play it square.
Be inventive! Music lives on repetition and sequenzing.

I did the Hanon allways in a musical context like here -->

www.cisum.info/Hanon_by_Armin_Keil.wma

on a IMA7 V7/II IIm7 V//I turnaround.
Posted by: kiedysktos.

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/19/13 07:44 AM

Generally, Hanon and regular fingering both are played by classical pianists, because both are great tools, but they are for different targets. I doubt Hanon considered those exercises for non-classical playing, since it was published in 1873. You can't easily play sequence moving stepwise in your improvisation and use classical fingering, also you can't play fast ascending scale through a few octaves without using classical fingerings.

In jazz, Hanon fingerings (or lack of it smile ) is essential, one of my favourite jazz piano teachers, which is a genius player, said: "if you always play this note with the same finger, then you always sound the same. I can tell what you will play next". If you don't understand this statement too literally, he really has his point.

I play Hanon every day in all keys, I play mostly first 20 exercises, and that was enough for me for last 3 or 4 years. I don't have enough time to play everything, so usually I play one of variations:

1) a couple of exercises through all keys
2) first exercise in C, C# and F, second in F#, G, G# and so on through all exercises

But rhythmically I also play one of variations:
1) equal 8ths, metronome 4x slower (usually 22-25)
2) swing eights, metronome once a two bars, or 2&4, or just 2, or just 4
3) equal eights, but with accents on 1&3 or 2&4 or every fifth note (last one is more demanding so tempo is slower, like 20 or even 18, but at 18 it may be better to play 36 instead).

Especially accents every fifth note is very demanding, and you shouldn't overdo forcing only those 5th accents, because it requires slower tempo and may make your fingers stronger, but affect speed and fluency of playing. So alternating exercises is best way.

What I plan is playing Hanon on pentatonics, which I heard is good. Also in melodic scales, I also wonder if it's possible to play it in diminished and whole-tone scale.


EDIT: Here is a link to first 20 execrises with my additions (short, original Hanon comments which exercise is for what)
Posted by: Randy C.

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/19/13 11:00 AM

Originally Posted By: davefrank
the fingering remains the same for each degree. In the first hanon, for example, it's 12345321 12345321 et al, descending 54321345 54321345..it's a bit awkward at first, then you get used to it and it is very freeing in terms of using the thumbs creatively and breaking classical fingering habits.

DF


And you use the same fingering for every key?
Posted by: davefrank

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/19/13 12:01 PM

si senor
Posted by: offnote

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/19/13 04:38 PM

I didn't know Hanon was a jazzer...
Posted by: jawhitti

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/19/13 05:53 PM

Just to remind anyone in this thread who may be getting the wrong idea. "JazzHanon" refers to the series of exercises by that name contained in Dave Frank's "Joy of Improv" books. It's a clever name but the exercises are completely unrelated to the "classic" Hanon exercises. except in spirit.
Posted by: kiedysktos.

Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question - 01/19/13 06:19 PM

Originally Posted By: jawhitti
Just to remind anyone in this thread who may be getting the wrong idea. "JazzHanon" refers to the series of exercises by that name contained in Dave Frank's "Joy of Improv" books. It's a clever name but the exercises are completely unrelated to the "classic" Hanon exercises. except in spirit.


OK, sorry! smile