rodeo LH

Posted by: Dfrankjazz

rodeo LH - 10/14/13 06:35 PM

introduced here at 30:10

http://youtu.be/3CGOSToQWv0

DF
Posted by: rintincop

Re: rodeo LH - 10/14/13 07:04 PM

Who came up with the nickname "rodeo"?
Posted by: Dfrankjazz

Re: rodeo LH - 10/14/13 07:32 PM

yawrs trullie

DF
Posted by: Michael Martinez

Re: rodeo LH - 10/14/13 07:32 PM

Hey, again I'm going to be a critic here. I skimmed through the first 25 minutes of this, and I saw nothing at all on how to develop improvised lines, I only saw some demonstrations of what chord voicings to use in the LH. But this is incongruous, because what you teach in this video is substantially simpler than what you actually do in the video, particularly with the right hand ... So, a bit confused as to who the target audience is supposed to be? The title says "Advanced Jazz" lesson. Okay, the playing is advanced, but the lesson is fairly simple, so ...?

I think what you should actually do, is break down the right hand, the improvised lines and show people how to construct those lines. I believe you'll find a substantially bigger, and more appreciative, audience if you do. Just my two cents. Keep on rockin'.
Posted by: Dfrankjazz

Re: rodeo LH - 10/14/13 07:57 PM

Listen, *deleted* I don't want to hear your opinions of my *deleted* that you skim through the first few minutes of. At least have to decency to watch the whole *deleted* thing before you unload.

The ablilty to add these types of stylistic elements to one's playing can only be done by advanced players, hence the advanced rating. This particular video is not about teaching the RH line, I do that in part on my Ustream Charlie Parker master class, TOWARDS THE END.

Dave Frank
Posted by: Roger Ransom

Re: rodeo LH - 10/15/13 08:35 AM

DFrank - Nice guy. If you post something on a public forum, you can, and probably will, get all kinds of comments.

If you're not able to deal with that, don't post.

Your comments are not appropriate here by the way.
Posted by: dire tonic

Re: rodeo LH - 10/15/13 09:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Roger Ransom
If you post something on a public forum, you can, and probably will, get all kinds of comments.

If you're not able to deal with that, don't post.


Choosing the right to reply doesn't imply over-sensitivity.

Quote:

Your comments are not appropriate here by the way.


- they perhaps don't fit forum guidelines but I found them to be 100% appropriate.
Posted by: 36251

Re: rodeo LH - 10/15/13 09:54 AM

If I knew how to post a Smilie face eating popcorn, which infers I am enjoying where this tread is going, i would post it now. smile
Posted by: Michael Martinez

Re: rodeo LH - 10/15/13 01:08 PM

Quote:

This particular video is not about teaching the RH line, I do that in part on my Ustream Charlie Parker master class, TOWARDS THE END.

Dave Frank


Is this the only place you teach the RH line, or are there other videos or materials where you do this?

Honestly, after having watched a few of your videos, my opinion is that you are long on playing, but short on teaching. You've already demonstrated you can play, yeah? Everyone knows that, they can hear it. But playing and teaching are two different things.

So many guys think that they've been gigging for a long time so they know how to instruct others. But, almost nobody knows how to teach jazz. That's a fact. What I'd really like to see you do, is break down your right hand improvised lines into the elements that make it up. That truly would be worthwhile. Are you up for that challenge?

By the way, I don't mind the profanity. But I was hoping for a back-and-forth discussion rather than an obvious dismissal of my comments. Oh well.

I'll check out your Ustream Charlie Parker master class, and I will comment honestly about it. If it does what you say, I'll be sure to talk about it. But if it doesn't, I won't sugar coat my comments.
Posted by: rintincop

Re: rodeo LH - 10/15/13 02:13 PM

Posted by: 36251

Re: rodeo LH - 10/15/13 02:54 PM

Originally Posted By: rintincop
+1
This is getting good. I've had many great teachers but it appears most teachers sometimes hold back some of the most important elements. For example, I learned from many places about the importance of using guide tones lines. OK, maybe I'm stupid but it wasn't until I bought Bert Ligon, connecting chords with linear harmony that the whole idea made sense and gave me a way to create an order in my head of how to choose a 3rd or a 7th, etc.

I'm not here to add to two experienced educators, but I feel like I could be a much different player if I could of had better teachers when I was a young boy.

I'd say I learned more in last 3 years using some books, but mostly bits from different YouTube videos.
Posted by: Randy Klein

Re: rodeo LH - 10/15/13 03:37 PM

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with Michael Martinez' critique of Dave Frank's teaching. Dave Frank is not only a great player, but one of the finest teachers of this style of piano improvisation. It is true that the videos start from the point of a performance video, but why not? Musicians learn through imitation. Why not imitate one of the best. Dave has a monster LH. Look at it. Watch how his hand movements are meticulously placed. Notice how connected physically he is. You can see that his brain is connected to his LH. This is part of the learning in this lesson. Just because a lesson isn't specifically spoon fed, doesn't mean it isn't taught.

Lastly, everyone learns at their own pace and in their own way. I suggest that you watch the video to the end. Take notes. Practice. Then after you have done so, you will have the right to make comments about a lesson from a well informed and dedicated teacher of piano. Practice then speak!
Posted by: Info2011

Re: rodeo LH - 10/15/13 04:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Randy Klein
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with Michael Martinez' critique of Dave Frank's teaching. Dave Frank is not only a great player, but one of the finest teachers of this style of piano improvisation.


+1

I get a lot out of Dave's videos tutorial-wise. And it's also just good to see how it's all done.
Posted by: RonL

Re: rodeo LH - 10/15/13 06:05 PM

The left comping video is my favorite of the Frank series. I have seen it twice. I like the way it presents the different concepts.
Posted by: 36251

Re: rodeo LH - 10/15/13 11:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Info2011
Originally Posted By: Randy Klein
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with Michael Martinez' critique of Dave Frank's teaching. Dave Frank is not only a great player, but one of the finest teachers of this style of piano improvisation.


+1

I get a lot out of Dave's videos tutorial-wise. And it's also just good to see how it's all done.

I think MM was critiquing the wrong video. I think he thought the video was called "15 ways to improve your improvised lines.

Maybe Dave's video should of been called "15 left hand concepts for solo piano," but like any video from an accomplished player such as Dave, we must be grateful that they're sharing their knowledge at all.
Posted by: Farmerjones

Re: rodeo LH - 10/16/13 11:36 AM

73,497 hits to date plus all positives, speaks for itself.
Posted by: Michael Martinez

Re: rodeo LH - 10/16/13 01:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Randy Klein
It is true that the videos start from the point of a performance video, but why not? Musicians learn through imitation.

Well, then why even watch a video? Just pick up some albums and rewind them over and over at slow speed.
If you feel that you have learned to improvise from listening to his videos, then I would be curious to hear the result. Can you record a short video?
Quote:

Then after you have done so, you will have the right to make comments about a lesson from a well informed and dedicated teacher of piano.

My assessment is of his videos (from an instructional standpoint) is right on the mark as it stands.
Originally Posted By: 36251
I've had many great teachers but it appears most teachers sometimes hold back some of the most important elements.

Yes. They do this for two reasons:
1. so their paying students will keep coming back
2. because they don't want to reveal "secrets" that took them years to develop. Another way to put this is that the trick itself may be simple and readily explained, but nobody explained it to them, so why should they bother explaining it to anybody else.
Quote:

I'm not here to add to two experienced educators, but I feel like I could be a much different player if I could of had better teachers when I was a young boy.

Amen. Your experience is not isolated, unfortunately.
Originally Posted By: 36251

like any video from an accomplished player such as Dave, we must be grateful that they're sharing their knowledge at all.

Wow. I completely disagree. If the teaching isn't good, then there's no point. Have you actually learned anything from those videos? If so, I would like to hear it. And I mean hear it, as in: you record yourself improvising on concepts you've learned.
Originally Posted By: Farmerjones
73,497 hits to date plus all positives, speaks for itself.

Actually, no. It doesn't. I would bet 99.99% of those "positives" are solely reactions to the quality of the performance, not the learning process.

You guys need to separate your awe of the performance from what you are able to learn and take away from the videos. I'm not critiquing his performance, I'm critiquing his instructional ability. The main characteristic of his videos, is his RH improvised lines. This is what gives his performances their jazz sound. And this is the thing that he does not teach. Instead, he gives some simplistic hints and tips on rhythm and basslines.
I would challenge anybody on this forum who believes they have learned something substantial or important from these videos, to demonstrate it with their own youtube vid.
Posted by: Farmerjones

Re: rodeo LH - 10/16/13 01:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Michael Martinez

Actually, no. It doesn't. I would bet 99.99% of those "positives" are solely reactions to the quality of the performance, not the learning process.


Actually, yes.
You're "betting" not actually reading the comments. Many actually learned from the video. Advanced aspects can be taught by example.

Everybody and their dog, teaches piano over the internet. Sometimes I feel like im actually the only one that does not. But one thing I do know is perception. When one coffee company started to knock another coffee company's product in their advertising campaign, they found sales of coffee went down for both companies. I personally, don't let my opinion pick my pocket.
Posted by: Michael Martinez

Re: rodeo LH - 10/16/13 01:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Farmerjones
Many actually learned from the video.

I would like to hear this demonstrated.
Quote:

Advanced aspects can be taught by example.

He doesn't teach advanced stuff. If he actually taught what he plays, then this would be a different conversation.
Quote:

Everybody and their dog, teaches piano over the internet.

And, most of them teach it very poorly.
Quote:

When one coffee company started to knock another coffee company's product in their advertising campaign, they found sales of coffee went down for both companies. I personally, don't let my opinion pick my pocket.

Not exactly sure what you're saying. Are you suggesting that one's opinions should not be expressed?
Posted by: dire tonic

Re: rodeo LH - 10/16/13 02:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Michael Martinez

I would challenge anybody on this forum who believes they have learned something substantial or important from these videos, to demonstrate it with their own youtube vid.


Then for the sake of balance let’s issue the same challenge to anyone who happens to have watched your recent videos. Let any one of them upload something to YT showing how they’re coping with your ‘method’.

While we’re at it, how about you showing what you can do with the standard ‘There will never be another you’. You purport to be an educator so it’s fair to ask what sort of results one can expect from your method; it goes without saying, you would be its finest exemplar, the proof of the pudding.
Posted by: Info2011

Re: rodeo LH - 10/16/13 02:46 PM

Michael -

Clearly, you're passionate about the teaching aspect of jazz, so I'm sure you have a good sense of how to teach this stuff yourself.

Would love it if you could post some video tutorial(s). I feel I've benefited so far from things like Dave's and 7notemode's tutorials, but there's no doubt that I can use all the help I can get.

Thx.
Posted by: knotty

Re: rodeo LH - 10/16/13 02:48 PM

The bass line video is one of the most useful jazz piano lesson on the web.
To say that Dave is a great player is an understatement, so say that he is weak as a teacher is ignorance, jealousy or both. Dave is one of the best teachers you'll ever run into. I've had many.

I've worked off of the bass line video and the 15 elements for hours. I can play a bass line on just about any tune. If someone asked me "Can you show me how to play a bass line". I'd say yes, go watch DF video and get grinding. There's simply no way I would lay it better.
Show me a video with solo piano techniques split the way that the 15 elements are described.

I was at Aebersold this year and many knew DF or knew of him. Dan Hearle commented how he's run into so many of his students and that they were great. Dan's a super nice guy btw.
If you happen to walk along the streets of NY alongside DF, you will run into people that stop and say, "Hey you're the guy from the youtube video. I love your stuff man".

Michael, let it slide man. Do your own bass line video, or whatever video. Let people love it and move on. You're not gonna get much love around here bashing. There's plenty of business for everyone. So just be cool.
Posted by: knotty

Re: rodeo LH - 10/16/13 02:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Info2011
Michael -

Clearly, you're passionate about the teaching aspect of jazz, so I'm sure you have a good sense of how to teach this stuff yourself.

Would love it if you could post some video tutorial(s). I feel I've benefited so far from things like Dave's and 7notemode's tutorials, but there's no doubt that I can use all the help I can get.

Thx.


7notemode (tom) is another super nice dude who hangs around here sometimes. An awesome pianist who makes wonderful videos. I often recommend his videos alongside Dave's.

Those 2 should give me a cut on the crazy dough they're making via youtube...
Posted by: 36251

Re: rodeo LH - 10/16/13 03:29 PM

Originally Posted By: knotty
Originally Posted By: Info2011
Michael -

Clearly, you're passionate about the teaching aspect of jazz, so I'm sure you have a good sense of how to teach this stuff yourself.

Would love it if you could post some video tutorial(s). I feel I've benefited so far from things like Dave's and 7notemode's tutorials, but there's no doubt that I can use all the help I can get.

Thx.


7notemode (tom) is another super nice dude who hangs around here sometimes. An awesome pianist who makes wonderful videos. I often recommend his videos alongside Dave's.

Those 2 should give me a cut on the crazy dough they're making via youtube...
both are great players but videos are not the "nuts and bolts" videos I really learn from. Not that I shouldn't transcribe them but I choose to transcribe the historical greats like Sonny Clark, Herbie, Red Garland, Tommy Flanagan, Barry Harris, etc.

I appreciate anyone who has figured it out to share their skill in any way.
Posted by: Michael Martinez

Re: rodeo LH - 10/16/13 03:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Info2011
Michael -
Would love it if you could post some video tutorial(s).

Certainly. The only video I've done so far teaching how to improvise on a particular tune, is not jazz, it's the Aha tune Take on Me: Take on Me

I welcome you (and others) to watch it, and upload your improvisations based on it. Unlike Mr. Frank's videos, I don't beat around the bush with nonsense like "Let the Spirit Guide you to the right notes." I laughed my @ss off when I heard that.

Originally Posted By: dire tonic

While we’re at it, how about you showing what you can do with the standard ‘There will never be another you’.


Certainly. I will do.

Likewise, how many of you guys are actually going to improvise something for us and post it here? Or are you all talk, and no action?
Posted by: Michael Martinez

Re: rodeo LH - 10/16/13 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: knotty
The bass line video is one of the most useful jazz piano lesson on the web.


I don't think I've seen this one. I'll check it out.

Quote:
Michael, let it slide man. Do your own bass line video, or whatever video. Let people love it and move on.


That's cool, man. I appreciate that

Quote:

You're not gonna get much love around here bashing.

Mmmmm, don't mistake criticism for bashing.
Quote:

There's plenty of business for everyone.

Teaching music is a labor of love for me. It's not my livelihood.
Posted by: Rollin shoulders

Re: rodeo LH - 10/16/13 10:50 PM

Michael Martinez- I see exactly where you're coming from. For the last few months I've pointed out the "forum spamming" Dave Frank does on this site.
(Oh look! An improvisation video! How cool!... Oh wait. It's Dave Frank again.)

Is he a highly respected player? It seems so.
Can he play piano? Sure.
Is there anything you can do about it? Simply put: No.

I've read your comments throughout this whole thread, and I completely agree with what you're saying.
Sadly, because we don't have 1,000+ posts on here, we don't have respective opinions like some others, so we eventually are unheard.

This is actually why I've stopped visiting the forums as much as I'd like to... It all comes down to post count.
... And then you have these guys like Dave Frank making up random names to techniques that are basically very similar to others (Rodeo = Alberti Bass much? maybe with one exception?... I rest my case.)

So I'll be the 1% here and fully support your opinion Michael. You did validly prove your point by quoting others.
I'm just glad I'm not the only one here who thinks Dave Frank's Posts are essentially self promotion and egotistical!
Posted by: Michael Martinez

Re: rodeo LH - 10/17/13 02:01 PM

Rolling shoulders -

I know there's a lot of people who feel the same way, but who are too timid to say anything. They feel like they don't have the right to critique someone who is an experienced performer. But the fact is, you have every right to criticize their teaching if you aren't learning anything from them. Dave Frank's videos do smack more of showcasing his talents rather than helping people learn to play jazz.

Posted by: RodScod.com

Re: rodeo LH - 10/17/13 05:55 PM

I've seen some of the DF videos and frankly (get it), have learned much from them. I'll be sure and check out the mentioned videos in this thread.

Anyone can criticize and most fools do!!
Posted by: 36251

Re: rodeo LH - 10/17/13 07:30 PM

I keep thinking that if a video is free then it's up to us to decide if we want to watch it. It can be called anything and do nothing to advance whatever it's about. Once we decide to watch it, maybe the whole thing, maybe just 10 seconds then we critiquing it. The only real thing then to do is either like it, in which case you might tell people about it OR think it s*cks and just move on to next one. There's no reason to let anyone know if you hate it unless you know person and want to [censored] on him. I guess there's also the chance you think it's stupid or funny and you want to become a comedian and share it with a cute one-liner.

Now if someone is trying to sell a DVD and promotes a video to advertise then I think it's important that people review it and be truthful.

I do wish that people selling their wares would do it in a specific place. I'm not a fan of reading a thread and finding out it's an info-mercial.

I think both main parties made mistakes in this. DF could of explained the technique without the link. I understand it made it easy, but it can be implied, by some, as promotion. The explanation approach, IMO, would of promoted, but in a more subtle way. MM didn't have to bring it in the gutter, but I do agree with some of points he made.

This thread also brings to light the risk that heavy weights can get themselves into by exposing their identity.
Posted by: RonL

Re: rodeo LH - 10/17/13 07:35 PM

I don't get all the Frank Hate - I am sure Dave will cheerfully refund your money - oh wait the videos are free.

Check out the end of his Charlie Parker video: there is a great summary of the jazz elements and an analysis the Koko solo - it is one of the best summaries of the things that make up the language: scales, chromatics, chord tones, approach tones, arpeggios. It's right at the end of the video. Highly recommended.

As a wise man once said about the Barry Harris video:

Any video by anyone on any subject is a "your mileage may vary kind of thing."

Amen and may the spirit continue to guide us to the right notes.
Posted by: Michael Martinez

Re: rodeo LH - 10/18/13 04:11 PM

A lot of hot talk in this thread, but what it comes down to is there's only two people who have recorded themselves playing for everyone to hear: myself and the OP.
Posted by: dire tonic

Re: rodeo LH - 10/19/13 06:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Michael Martinez
A lot of hot talk in this thread, but what it comes down to is there's only two people who have recorded themselves playing for everyone to hear: myself and the OP.


You’re confused and generating most of the heat.

Dfrank did what he routinely does, posting a video for public consumption so that viewers can take from it what they will. You piped up protesting that he was “short on teaching”. By implication, one can only assume that you claim yourself to be strong in the area that you accuse Dfrank of being weak, namely teaching. The proof of your teaching skills would surely be that one of your willing students shows us what he can do using your methods to learn to improvise. It is for them, your willing students (please don't count me amongst them!), to pipe up at this point so as to demonstrate just how effective your methods are.
Posted by: rintincop

Re: rodeo LH - 10/19/13 08:19 PM


Here's Michael Martinez playing "Misty":

http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/Original%20Music/me/Misty.mp3

I rate this performance as mediocre.
The timing is not very good and the style reminds of a mundane pop pianist at a department store. The playing doesn't present a jazz rhythmic or jazz harmonic sensibility.
Posted by: dire tonic

Re: rodeo LH - 10/20/13 03:38 AM

Originally Posted By: rintincop

Here's Michael Martinez playing "Misty":

http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/Original%20Music/me/Misty.mp3

I rate this performance as mediocre.
The timing is not very good and the style reminds of a mundane pop pianist at a department store. The playing doesn't present a jazz rhythmic or jazz harmonic sensibility.


It reminds me of the adage-

those who can, do;
those who can't, teach;
those who can't teach, teach others to teach.

(or, that last line, "..., teach gym" - Woody Allen)

If the English prof is filling in for the absent Chemistry prof, he need only be a page ahead of his pupils, so there's no reason why MM shouldn't be able to help those with less knowledge than himself but maybe the title 'educator' is a bit of a stretch.
Posted by: Michael Martinez

Re: rodeo LH - 10/20/13 09:45 AM

Originally Posted By: rintincop

Here's Michael Martinez playing "Misty":
...
I rate this performance as mediocre.


If this is medicore, I imagine your own playing is rookie.

You guys are goofy. You talk about music like you know it, but I bet there's not one of you who can improvise or play by ear competently.
Posted by: rintincop

Re: rodeo LH - 10/20/13 11:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Michael Martinez
Originally Posted By: rintincop

Here's Michael Martinez playing "Misty":
...
I rate this performance as mediocre.


If this is medicore, I imagine your own playing is rookie.

You guys are goofy. You talk about music like you know it, but I bet there's not one of you who can improvise or play by ear competently.


Oh, right.
Posted by: ChrisDeVito

Re: rodeo LH - 10/20/13 01:44 PM

While I enjoyed listening to Michael's rendition of "Misty", I also understand why he sought jazz improvisation advice from Dave Frank's master classes. As someone already mentioned, Dave's Charlie Parker master-class is an excellent resource for right hand improvisation. In addition, Dave shares much more advice in his 20 or so other online jazz piano master classes. Perhaps one should study at least a few of these classes before criticizing the scope of Dave's knowledge sharing. I am not aware of any other series of master classes that can compare in terms of the shear magnitude of Dave Frank's online knowledge sharing efforts. I myself have studied at least a dozen of Dave's classes, and am now in my fifth year of private jazz piano lessons with him. In my 20+ years of formal/private training, I have never met a more dedicated educator (in any field). IMO, Dave Frank is the "Bill Evans" of online jazz piano education. I would love to hear from one of Michael's students. Thanks, Chris
Posted by: The Wind

Re: rodeo LH - 10/20/13 02:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Michael Martinez
[quote=rintincop]


If this is medicore, I imagine your own playing is rookie.

You guys are goofy. You talk about music like you know it, but I bet there's not one of you who can improvise or play by ear competently.


Don't be so quick to speak. Come to the Jazz advanced thread and listen to some of the players. I would post the links to my videos but I prefer to remain anonymous.

I seem to recall Michael that you were quite dismissive of Keith Jarrett as a "jazz" player. Perhaps your ears aren't attuned to recognizing his greatness.

For all the talk you write about on your website about harmony, counterpoint and jazz I heard none of that on any of your song clips. http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/Original%20Music/index.html

Frankly, do you even play jazz? I heard no sense of timing, syncopation, harmonic depth.... You were using root position block chords on Arthur's Theme. your Misty was.... no altered dominant voicings, all plain vanilla. weird trills added in the melody for no reason. I mean if you are going for the cocktail lounge gig it might pass. Have you even played in a proper jazz band before?

Sad to say I learned nothing reading your site, except cheap shills to buy your "jazz" books.
Posted by: The Wind

Re: rodeo LH - 10/20/13 02:14 PM

Man I sure learned "alot" on your Ear training 101 video!!

Posted by: The Wind

Re: rodeo LH - 10/20/13 02:23 PM

Gotta say, I'm not impressed one bit by your training videos. You talk too much, have too many "uh.. ummm..." play on some cheap keyboard which has horrible sound. the camera angle is "uh" very strange to look at, you hide your face.

Hmm, now compare that to Dave Franks' videos. Not so easy is it.
Posted by: The Wind

Re: rodeo LH - 10/20/13 02:27 PM

Is this how you play the "blues"? LOL

Posted by: The Wind

Re: rodeo LH - 10/20/13 02:41 PM

Here's a bet, can anyone sit through this entire video without shutting it off and can actually say they "learned" how to play a bass line?



Surely it doesn't take 33 minutes to explain a B minor pentatonic scale? You show no practical application of the scale, there is NO bass line, no rhythm or groove established.

Michael, I say this in the nicest way possible. You are NOT a music educator. I have many engineer friends and they all have that similar analytical mindset. Could be great for engineering, but when translated to teaching music...I would rather watch paint dry than have to sit through that mess.
Posted by: BB Player

Re: rodeo LH - 10/20/13 06:09 PM

How about if we leave the personal insults and ad hominem attacks at the door? If you find Dave's or Michael's posted videos useful - great! If you think they're a waste of time then let me suggest you not waste your time watching any more of them. If you're aware of others either created by you or by someone else that are more instructive then by all means post them but there's no need to insult either those who post videos or those who find them valuable.
Posted by: Michael Martinez

Re: rodeo LH - 10/20/13 06:10 PM

Originally Posted By: ChrisDeVito
While I enjoyed listening to Michael's rendition of "Misty", I also understand why he sought jazz improvisation advice from Dave Frank's master classes.


Wrong. I didn't (and don't) seek improvisation advice from DF's class. I reviewed his videos to critique their instructional value. I do this as part of recommending to students which materials are worth studying.

Originally Posted By: The Wind

Don't be so quick to speak. Come to the Jazz advanced thread and listen to some of the players.


I'm not talking about "some" of the players in other places. I'm talking specifically about the people who have spoken out on this thread. Like yourself, for example.

Originally Posted By: The Wind


For all the talk you write about on your website about harmony, counterpoint and jazz I heard none of that on any of your song clips.

Frankly, do you even play jazz?


Yes I do, over many years of playing I've done rock, reggae, jazz, pop and indie gigs - bars, lounges, hotels, out on the street. What about you?

Quote:

I heard no sense of timing, syncopation, harmonic depth.... You were using root position block chords on Arthur's Theme. your Misty was.... no altered dominant voicings, all plain vanilla.


Let me ask you a question. If you choose to harmonize something in a specific way, what does this say? For example, if I choose to harmonize the opening bar of Misty as Gm Gm Gm, instead of Gm >Gmaj >Dmaj/Emaj7, or some other "standard" way that you learn from your classes at Berklee, what are you going to say about that? Your comment about root chords shows that you simply follow what you are told instead of thinking for yourself.

If I sit down at the piano and I want to play a standard using root, 3rd and 5th chords in the LH instead of Bill Evans type voicings or quartals or whatever else, well then that's what I'm going to do. If I choose to do the piece with runs and embellishments, or if I choose to play the changes or make bebop lines, or if I choose to do it playing one single note throughout 8 bars, okay. The point is not how you play or whether you conform to preconception, the point is that you understand enough about music, and you have practiced enough of the right things, so that you know how to make your OWN music.

By the way, that recording was probably made, like 15 years ago and I don't remember where or under what circumstance. I have uploaded almost nothing of what I have done over the years in terms of recordings of any kind. This stuff is all scattered around in boxes, packed up, I don't even know where some of it is. I barely put this website together a few months ago when I finished writing my books.

Between my full time contract gig in computers, a half-time job in computers, a wife, music commitments, hanging out with drinking buddies, a mistress, and working out at the gym, I barely have time to do anything else. I wish I had all the time in the world. I wish I could devote 10 hours a day to creating lots of video lessons, taking someone all the way from the foundations up to playing jazz and reharmonizing tunes. I wish I could had hours to sit down and convert my cassettes and CDs to mp3. I wish I had more time for composing.

Quote:

Sad to say I learned nothing reading your site, except cheap shills to buy your "jazz" books.


Guy, let me tell you something. I took six months off work last year to write those books. Why do you think I did that? To make money from them? Give me a break. Any money I make from selling music books, or from doing anything in music for that matter, is pennies compared to what I make doing system engineering work here in the Valley. So then, why do you think I wrote them? I wrote them to share my experience with and understanding of music to people who want to learn. I wrote them because there's so much crappy music instruction out there, that it's ridiculous. People think there's some "mystical secret" to playing jazz. There's not. You just need to be taught the right way.

Originally Posted By: The Wind

Michael, I say this in the nicest way possible. You are NOT a music educator.


Spare me the patronizing "niceness." Until you prove you know how to play, your comments mean nothing. Your excuse is that you wish to remain anonymous. We all know what that really means: you can't play for sht, right?

The more people blab without showing what they're made of, the less credible they become.

We are still back at square one. Of everyone who has splattered their comments on this thread, only two people have demonstrated their musicianship: myself and DF.
Posted by: The Wind

Re: rodeo LH - 10/20/13 06:33 PM

*Personal attack deleted*

Following up a warning about personal attacks with a personal attack has earned this poster a two week vacation. Anyone else care to join him or shall we restrict our discussion to instructional videos and lay off the personal attacks?
Posted by: rintincop

Re: rodeo LH - 10/21/13 02:06 PM

Those 2 videos are slow paced and talk about basic music theory concepts from first year theory.
Posted by: Michael Martinez

Re: rodeo LH - 10/22/13 07:30 PM

Originally Posted By: rintincop
Those 2 videos are slow paced and talk about basic music theory concepts from first year theory.


That's why they are in the "Getting Started" section for beginning students. It would be nice, when you guys are critiquing my videos, if you would pay attention to the context.
And, I dont' mind criticism at all, as long as it's constructive and benefits everyone.
Posted by: Rollin shoulders

Re: rodeo LH - 10/23/13 12:12 PM

This is a forum where ideas are meant to be spread, and discussed. Not to ridicule others.

Dave Frank posts informational videos, some of us don't enjoy the way he teaches.
Dave Frank self promotes because he makes money off of views on his youtube videos.

I'm starting to think he posts stupid things on these forums, causes controversy (annoying people), as a way to help his view count.
Kind of like pop stars who do something absolutely ridiculous on TV so consumers watch and talk about it...
Except, on a way lower level because this is a piano forum.

If I get banned or kicked from the forums (like my last account) I honestly don't care. Everyone is so thick on these forums. Go play piano or something
Posted by: Rollin shoulders

Re: rodeo LH - 10/23/13 12:14 PM

The Wind - Your attitude is foolish. If you think you're so much better at teaching, why don't you post a tutorial video.

I hate these forums
Posted by: KlinkKlonk

Re: rodeo LH - 10/23/13 01:01 PM

whats' wrong with self promotion? it's not like anyone ever learned to play watching videos anyway
"post a vid" is the new "come at me bro!"; fit for video games or whatever, not for playing the piano!
piano is about love, guts, it's a REAL thing

one positive thing about franks vids is that he's not knocking down on other teaching methods, there are lots of vids with where some renowned player dismisses: "dont play with a metronome", "dont use chord scale theory" "use chordscale theory" etc

and even if you dont pick up something from a perceptual or technical point of view, his videos always transmit inspiration, and transpiration, at least for me.
Posted by: Michael Martinez

Re: rodeo LH - 10/23/13 05:04 PM

Originally Posted By: KlinkKlonk

"post a vid" is the new "come at me bro!"; fit for video games or whatever, not for playing the piano!
piano is about love, guts, it's a REAL thing


I'll give two thumbs up on this.

Quote:

one positive thing about franks vids is that he's not knocking down on other teaching methods,


I'll give a thumbs up here too
Posted by: spider

Re: rodeo LH - 01/08/14 05:19 PM

Just a lurker mostly who is trying to learn. I like the arguing. At least it gets the discussion going, is often entertaining and usually results IMO in some learning beyond the Original Post. Oh well perhaps this will be like most forums where they ban contributors constantly and no discussion takes place.