Any tips for this score?

Posted by: JoelW

Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 03:12 AM

I just finished this score. I'm sure I will make some edits as time goes on but for now I'd appreciate any advice. Comments, criticisms, tips?

Thanks.

(deleted and revised)

(revised version) Thanks Nikolas!

PS: I'm aware of the giant empty space at the bottom. MuseScore just won't let me fix it for some reason. I've tried adjusting the measure width so that it evens out, and it does even out until I reopen the score to find that it has gone back to its original spacing. Oh well.
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 03:38 AM

Here we go...

1. You NEED to show every beat (or at least the 1st and 3rd beat, if the music is simple enough) in EVERY bar. Your very first bar defies this rule (which is actually VERY important) and this makes counting VERY difficult, for a single bar.

Make your C (2nd beat) into a quarter, tied with an 8th and DISconnect the beam after the 32nd C (leaving the 4 last notes on their own beat).

Do the same for every other bar this is an issue.

2. A tie from a half note, over a 16th rest to the next 16th note doesn't make much sense. If it was a string score, or a wind score it would actually make sense (keep the same bow/breathing), but not for the piano. Since you have a rest you can't do a legato anymore. Period!(this applies to bars 2,3,4, etc)

3. bars 13 and 14 need the layers cleaned up in the upper staff: You need to make the first beam go up, rather than down, so as to separate it from the half note bellow.

4. bar 38 as it shows has 6 beats instead of 4. Put the rests back in (underneath the half notes) and turn the quarter not stems downwards rather than up.

5. Last bar needs a fermata in both staves, not just the higher one!

6. Bar 33 needs the clef change AFTER that low F. It's a pity to have 3 ledger lines when you're already in the bass clef I think!

7. The terms "playful" and "Calm and expressive" are tempo markings? If so, make them in the same manner like "Lively" (in the beginning, with bold lettering and a larger font). If they are expression markings they should be in the middle of the two staves and probably in Italics.

8. Do you actually play the whole work with only 1 bar with the sustain pedal? when you put pedal information the pianist will assume that it applies for the whole work, so no pedal signs means no pedal (if there's at least one pedal in). If you want more pedalling either notate it, or take out that one, and allow the pianists do what they do best: Mess up the pedalling! grin

9. I get a constant feeling that I'd like more legato slurs... Take for example bar 5. This is textbook example of slurs in every beam... why did you leave it out?

One suggestion I'd have would be to take the two staves more apart, leaving more space between them two. This way, you'd have more space to place the dynamics correctly, plus probably one or two systems would have to be moved to another page, thus filling in the third page!

I hope this doesn't across as harsh. I'm just in a hurry and can't word it in a better way I'm afraid. I know you know I mean well, so all is well! ^_^
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 04:23 AM

Nikolas, thanks for this reply.

Quote:
DISconnect the beam after the 32nd C (leaving the 4 last notes on their own beat).


I can't seem do that on MuseScore without changing the value of 32nd C to a 64th. That is to say, I don't know how to split the beam. I'm pretty familiar with how MuseScore works. I'm not sure it's possible. I hope I'm wrong though. Can anyone help with this?
Quote:

A tie from a half note, over a 16th rest to the next 16th note doesn't make much sense. If it was a string score, or a wind score it would actually make sense (keep the same bow/breathing), but not for the piano. Since you have a rest you can't do a legato anymore. Period!(this applies to bars 2,3,4, etc)


Ahh, I see. I need to be replacing the rests with 16ths and tie them. I never would have realized this. Thanks!

Quote:
bars 13 and 14 need the layers cleaned up in the upper staff: You need to make the first beam go up, rather than down, so as to separate it from the half note bellow.


I'm confused.

Quote:
bar 38 as it shows has 6 beats instead of 4. Put the rests back in (underneath the half notes) and turn the quarter not stems downwards rather than up.


But I need the left hand to hold out until the next bar, and if I put a rest under the second half note in the treble then I won't be able to put a tie. (?)

Quote:

I get a constant feeling that I'd like more legato slurs... Take for example bar 5. This is textbook example of slurs in every beam... why did you leave it out?


The thing is, when I think "slur" I'm thinking about the strict, textbook definition. Holding down a note for the given distance of the slur. I feel like I'm doing that as much as I can. When YOU place slurs, how are you deciding where to place them?

--

I'm also confused as to when to have the stems facing up or down.
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 04:34 AM

bars 13 and 14 have something that looks like a half note, but the beam is confusing everything. You need to set apart the two voices in the same staff: If you turn the stem of the half note downward and the beam upward, it should be very clear.

You seem to be confused with using more than 1 voices in the same staff: When you have more than one voices in the same staff (look at Bach fugues, for example) you are forced to find a way to separate the different voices somehow. This is done by using what is generally called "layers". You make the voices look different by making the one voice stems and beams ALWAYS look down and the other ALWAYS look up. in the case of bar 38 if you look at it as you've got it notated it's 6 beats, not four. what you mean is that you play the first note, and keeping it down, then you play the second note. You lift both and repeat the process once more and are done. but you need to show that the quarter note is played on the 2nd beat and not the 3rd (as it is shown right now).

Finally, the definition of the legato slur is NOT to hold the note for the duration of the slur! The definition of the slur is to play them 'legato'. In the case of strings with a single bow, in the case of the flutes a single blow, in the case of the piano, you keep the note pressed until the next one comes (not until the slur is done)...

hope this helps...
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 05:04 AM

Now I understand. Thank you!!

Quick question -- slurs CAN be used to directly sustain a single note, right?
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 05:09 AM

Originally Posted By: JoelW
Quick question -- slurs CAN be used to directly sustain a single note, right?
now it's my turn to not understand fully...

A note has the duration it shows. A quarter is a quarter and lasts 1 beat (if the beat is a quarter), etc...

The only ways to extend the duration of a single note is to either add a fermata above it or add a tie (and not a slur) that leads nowhere, to show that you need to allow the note to vibrate (otherwise notated l.v. (let vibrate). And you could add a tenuto sign (the - ) above the notehead (or bellow, if it's looking downwards, but this doesn't really extend the duration, or doesn't do it 'exactly right', if you understand what I mean...
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 05:19 AM

See measure 13 in the score. The first note needs to be held the whole measure.
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 05:45 AM

m. 13 has 5 notes... which one do you mean?
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 05:53 AM

Agh, I meant measure 12. Sorry!

The first note in measure 12 needs to somehow last the whole measure. Do I change the note value to a whole note and then flip the stem UP?
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 05:58 AM

It's difficult to notate it. Because the first 3 beats are BELLOW the first note and the last chord is ABOVE, so flipping the steams wouldn't be ideal.

I think that if you added a small tie on the A (which would end BEFORE the second note in the right hand) and a l.v. you would be fine...
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 06:25 AM

I feel like I have learned a lot.

So...

Here's my second attempt. Any better?

EDIT: Slightly revised
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 06:29 AM

MUCH better...

There are still some slurs that need flipping, etc, but otherwise it's fine I think...

in bars 9, 11, 13 and 14 you could flip the stem of the half note. It would look TONS better...

And on bar 33 the F in the right hand is what? A whole note with a stem?

But other than that it looks very much improved! Well done!

(and yes, you got a serious notating lesson here I think... wink But you're worth it! ;))
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 06:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Nikolas
MUCH better...

There are still some slurs that need flipping, etc, but otherwise it's fine I think...

in bars 9, 11, 13 and 14 you could flip the stem of the half note. It would look TONS better...

And on bar 33 the F in the right hand is what? A whole note with a stem?

But other than that it looks very much improved! Well done!

(and yes, you got a serious notating lesson here I think... wink But you're worth it! ;))


Thanks very much!

About those four bars... are you asking that I flip the half notes DOWN while the melody above the half notes stays flipped UP? If that is indeed what you're asking, I cannot do that on MuseScore. I have tried so hard haha. I've even looked it up online and I can't find anything about it.

Quote:
And on bar 33 the F in the right hand is what? A whole note with a stem?


Well, you said something about half notes previously. Something along the lines of the bar having 6 counts instead of 4, and that I should switch the stems. Something about voices? (still not sure about all of that)

In hindsight it seems stupid that I left a stem on the whole note but I had the impression that it wouldn't work well. I don't know.
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 10:34 AM

Originally Posted By: JoelW
Thanks very much!

About those four bars... are you asking that I flip the half notes DOWN while the melody above the half notes stays flipped UP? If that is indeed what you're asking, I cannot do that on MuseScore. I have tried so hard haha. I've even looked it up online and I can't find anything about it.
Yes.

I think that musescore would have such a tool, but check with them. Unfortunately I know nothing about musescore... frown

Quote:
Well, you said something about half notes previously. Something along the lines of the bar having 6 counts instead of 4, and that I should switch the stems. Something about voices? (still not sure about all of that)
Think of it this way: If you had a SIGNLE human, would (s)he be able to sing the bar as you want it? To hold the note and sing the second one and so on? No!

So you need 2 voices. These are the two layers I'm talking about. The first one will sing the half notes, and the second voice will sign rest - quarter - rest -quarter.

Quote:
In hindsight it seems stupid that I left a stem on the whole note but I had the impression that it wouldn't work well. I don't know.
Yes, it doesn't work well, your intention was right! LOL!

It just looks plain weird right now...

But in any case your score had a huge improvement...

I'll see if I find time to make a sort of a tutorial about making tidy scores and stuff, but it might take time...
Posted by: PianoStudent88

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 10:45 AM

Originally Posted By: JoelW
About those four bars... are you asking that I flip the half notes DOWN while the melody above the half notes stays flipped UP? If that is indeed what you're asking, I cannot do that on MuseScore. I have tried so hard haha. I've even looked it up online and I can't find anything about it.

There's an ability to separate voices in MuseScore which I think would allow you to do this. (I think MuseScore calls them voices, not layers.)
Posted by: Charles Peck

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 03:51 PM

The improvements look a lot better. I didn't look to see if Nikolas mentioned this, but performance style text like calm and expressive or playful would typically go above the upper staff as opposed to in between the two staves.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 04:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Charles Peck
The improvements look a lot better. I didn't look to see if Nikolas mentioned this, but performance style text like calm and expressive or playful would typically go above the upper staff as opposed to in between the two staves.


Originally Posted By: Nikolas

If they are expression markings they should be in the middle of the two staves and probably in Italics.
Posted by: Charles Peck

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 04:39 PM

I did a bit of digging and it seems there are examples of both. Though Nikolas's suggestion seems to be more common. I did engraving for some time though and it still looks a bit strange to my eyes. But there are many examples of it, so I am sure it is fine.

Just for clarification. Dynamics always go in between staves, unless they are specific to one of the lines. Tempo text and alterations always go above the top staff.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 04:49 PM

Thanks Charles. You said you did fine both examples, would that mean that text markings like "Calm and expressive" CAN go above the two staves? This would be best in my case, because it looks ugly when they're bunched up against the dynamic markings.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 04:52 PM

Nikolas, I finally discovered how to separate voices.

How do those bars look now?

http://pdfuploader.com/uppdfs/781/Miniature_no__2_in_D-flat_major.pdf
Posted by: IstvánE

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 07:05 PM

Your page numbers are off, please fix that atrocity.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 07:22 PM

Originally Posted By: gizzards
Your page numbers are off, please fix that atrocity.


I didn't touch them. How are they off? They look fine to me.
Posted by: Charles Peck

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 07:52 PM

I've been thinking about it and realized that the way you have it now is a little conflicting with standard practice, which is why it looks odd to me. You can correct it in one of two ways.

If you intend it as a stylistic indication of a whole section, then it should go above the staff, bold, with a capitalized first letter, and not italicized. Same as you would with a tempo alteration.

If you intend it as a more micro structure comment, then keep it as is and just un-capitalize the first letter. What goes in between the staves more commonly are lines like dolce or espressivo. These kinds of descriptions are italicized and most frequently all lowercase.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 08:07 PM

Ah, I see. Thanks.
Posted by: Charles Peck

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 08:45 PM

A few more nitty gritty things on your score.

The ties kind of look like slurs. May be the program, but they have too much arch.

The right hand line starting in beat 4 of measure 12 through to measure 13 should be written 8va.

The slur in the left hand in measure 12 should be above the notes.

Measure 11, you slurred to a rest. Just go to the note before it.

Measure 20 - break the beam between beat 1 and 2 in the right hand.

Measure 25 right hand - staccato and legato give mixed signals, not sure what you're intending.

Measure 33 - you can't really right a breve in a 4/4 time signature. It needs to be tied with the other line on a different layer.

Hope that helps, I'm out of time now though. Good luck.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 10:02 PM

I tried to address the points you made.

http://pdfuploader.com/uppdfs/781/Miniature_no__2_in_D-flat_major.pdf

I don't understand what you mean by the ties and slurs looking the same though. Does it really matter what the curvature is? That's not a technicality, is it?
Posted by: Schubertslieder

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 11:09 PM

I am more used to seeing commonly used musical terminologies on scores than English.

Playful-- giocoso or scherzo
Calm -- calmo
Expressive -- espressivo

Best
Posted by: Schubertslieder

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 11:17 PM

On measure 33, on the treble clef the quarter note "F" being tied to the whole note on the next measure, I think that quarter note F should be a whole note still tied to the next measure with a quarter rest on top.

A quarter note can not carry the 4 counts in that measure, then tied to the whole note on the next measure.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 11:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Schubertslieder
On measure 33, on the treble clef the quarter note "F" being tied to the whole note on the next measure, I think that quarter note F should be a whole note still tied to the next measure with a quarter rest on top.

A quarter note can not carry the 4 counts in that measure, then tied to the whole note on the next measure.


But shouldn't each of the four beats be made very clear for counting purposes? I could add a stem and flip them to distinguish the voices but that just looks odd. A whole note with a stem! I think the quarter tied over works.
Posted by: Schubertslieder

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 11:29 PM

Quarter note is one count, in this case carrying 4 counts tied to the next measure.
I think it needs a quarter rest on the downbeat of measure 33. This will allow for the F to have whole note on the bottom tied to the next measure.
Posted by: Schubertslieder

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 11:32 PM

I also wondered on measure 37, if adding ritardando was a possibility.
That would signal the ending even stronger than the pp already in place on measure 38.
Posted by: Schubertslieder

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 11:37 PM

On measure 5, left hand accompaniment will be holding the notes while right hand will need to repeat those notes.
I wondered if adding staccatos on the left hand was a possibility.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/16/13 11:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Schubertslieder
On measure 5, left hand accompaniment will be holding the notes while right hand will need to repeat those notes.
I wondered if adding staccatos on the left hand was a possibility.


I was hoping this would imply use of pedal. If this doesn't work well, what could I do to signal pedal without placing pedal? Nikolas had stated that if you place pedal once, you had better place pedal very specifically in the score. I'd much rather give the option of willful pedaling. But like I said, this measure must be pedaled. Thoughts?
Posted by: Schubertslieder

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 12:14 AM

I would much rather see a ritardando on measure 5 and a fermata on measure 6 as that measure seem to come to a cadence.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 12:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Schubertslieder
I would much rather see a ritardando on measure 5 and a fermata on measure 6 as that measure seem to come to a cadence.


There is no cadence on measure 6. Also, adding a rit. to measure 5 is definitely NOT what I had in mind.

I do, however, like your comment about the rit. on measure 38, easing into measure 39.

Could you answer my question about pedaling in measure 5?

Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 01:51 AM

Joel,

In general pianists (of a certain level and above) will pedal away at will. When you have held notes that are IMPOSSIBLE to be held with your fingers down, then it's very obvious that the sustain pedal will be used in 95% of the times. The remaining 5% will be held with the sostenuto pedal, but this will probably need special instructions, since it's not too frequently met.

But your very first bar is again wrong! There's a quarter note rest missing from bellow the very first half note! Otherwise it's easy to assume it's the same voice/layer, and thus the measure would have 5 beats... :-/
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 02:38 AM

I don't understand. There IS a quarter note rest below the half note.
Posted by: Polyphonist

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 02:40 AM

Indeed there is NOT.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 02:49 AM

Confused.
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 02:49 AM

In the SAME staff, not the one bellow! wink
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 03:42 AM

So, like this?

http://s7.postimg.org/3tcs9i18r/sdfsdfsdfsdfsdf.png

Why should a rest come before the quarter? (voice 2) MuseScore wants to add rests on every note after the quarter in voice 2. I can simply delete them because they clump up with the notes in voice one, but why is MuseScore placing them and do I need them?
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 03:48 AM

Like this, yes.

The idea is that if you had 2 staves, you would be adding the correct rests... Now you don't have 2 staves, but one, but you still've got two voices to deal with. Thus the rests ARE needed (especially BEFORE the note). AFTER the note you could get away and not add them, but it depends on the occasion...
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 03:54 AM

But the half-note is voice ONE, and the quarter is voice two. After the quarter and its tie, voice two is OVER in that measure. What is the purpose of voice two's quarter rest on beat one, and why can I get away with not notating the following rests in voice two? smile
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 04:50 AM

Because voice ONE and voice TWO are not completely visible, even with the different direction of the stems... You NEED the rest there...
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 08:46 AM

Well, I went a redid the entire score. Something just wasn't right about the last one. I feel like this one is better. If anyone wants to take ANOTHER look at this darn score, it wold be appreciated. (sorry!) smile


Oh, and I went ahead and gave it a [silly] name... grin

http://pdfuploader.com/uppdfs/781/The_Little_Blue_Brush.pdf
Posted by: PianoStudent88

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 10:02 AM

Measure 38, inner voices in the right hand have only 3 beats.
Posted by: Charles Peck

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 06:01 PM

In Measure 25 and 29, you have a big jump and an accent in beat 1. I don't see how this could still be in the same long slur you have written in.

The slur between 11 and 12 - You have a slur that is landing and beginning on the same note, which would technically just be a continuous slur. This is written occasionally in piano scores, but it is technically incorrect and unclear to the performer.

There is some inconsistency in your slurring between 16 and 17 and the slurring between 21 and 22. I would probably decide where you want it to start. Also, why are measures 19 and 20 not slurred, but 21 and 22 are. They seem like similar music. If you really want them to be different then mark 19 and 20 more staccato. Also note that the octave jumps into beat three of measure 23 will be difficult to actually perform legato.

Measure 12 still has the staccato/legato confusion.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 07:11 PM

Quote:
In Measure 25 and 29, you have a big jump and an accent in beat 1. I don't see how this could still be in the same long slur you have written in.


How is it a problem? I've written a legato slur over the WHOLE phrase (except the staccatos) to signify a connected FEEL of the phrase, whether or not the pianist is using legato fingering or spurts of sustain.
Quote:

The slur between 11 and 12 - You have a slur that is landing and beginning on the same note, which would technically just be a continuous slur. This is written occasionally in piano scores, but it is technically incorrect and unclear to the performer.


That second "slur" is a tie.

Quote:
There is some inconsistency in your slurring between 16 and 17 and the slurring between 21 and 22. I would probably decide where you want it to start. Also, why are measures 19 and 20 not slurred, but 21 and 22 are. They seem like similar music. If you really want them to be different then mark 19 and 20 more staccato.


I see. I was going to add the staccatos but I wanted the pianist to have more freedom.

Quote:
Also note that the octave jumps into beat three of measure 23 will be difficult to actually perform legato.


Again, the slur is indicating a connected feel. Is this technically incorrect? Does the slur STRICTLY mean legato fingering?
Quote:

Measure 12 still has the staccato/legato confusion.


Again I say, it's a tie! smile Is there a better way I should notate that?
Posted by: PianoStudent88

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 08:27 PM

Measure 12: you can't tie an eighth note on beat one to a note on beat 3. If you mean for the A to be held continuously for the first three beats of the measure, you have to show a half note A on beat one (and tied to the quarter note on beat three).

For example, change the beat one eighth note A to a half note, and show an eighth rest underneath it on beat one for the inner voices before they start with CE on the & of 1.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 08:39 PM

Why can't I tie an 8th note over??
Posted by: PianoStudent88

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 08:46 PM

Because a tie indicates a note held for the combined value of the tied note values, taking place during the durations occupied by the tied notes, without replaying the note after the initial strike. If your tie is meant to tie the two As and not have the second A be restruck, then logically that means: play A for an eighth note. Then be silent for 3 eighth notes (I'm ignoring the other voices). Then play A again for a quarter note. It makes no sense.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 10:47 PM

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Because a tie indicates a note held for the combined value of the tied note values, taking place during the durations occupied by the tied notes, without replaying the note after the initial strike. If your tie is meant to tie the two As and not have the second A be restruck, then logically that means: play A for an eighth note. Then be silent for 3 eighth notes (I'm ignoring the other voices). Then play A again for a quarter note. It makes no sense.


Hmm, so the value of the first A must reach the second A for the tie to work? In other words, it must be so that if a tie were absent, the only difference would be a restrike? I see now. Thanks for clearing that up. I will probably just use a 'let vibrate'.
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 11:56 PM

Joel: You should feel VERY lucky that various people have 'taken care of you' all round the clock! wink It's great to see this thread reach page 6-7 with so many replies and no harsh tone ever! (and with so much understanding from your part, no insulting from anyone and plenty of 'thanks').

now, to your general issue. I'll put some bullet points, WITHOUT looking at the score this time.

1. In piano music you get 2 staves. The most frequent way to use these two staves is left hand: the lower staff, right hand: the higher staff. BUT there are exceptions. Some times more staves are needed (for ultra complicated music, or music that jumps around constantly), or you have both hands in a single staff, to avoid changing clefs constantly.

2. The piano is a polyphonic instrument, which means that you may be called to play chords (you know how to notate these), but also more independent melodic lines. If there are two if them, you're fine to using the two staves provided. But if there are more, or if the left hand (for example) is occupied doing something else then you are forced to use 2 melodic lines in a single staff.

3. This is where you are still not getting it I think. You need to think of each voice/layer as a new staff and fill it in accordingly. Just because they are in the same staff and the rhythm may seem obvious to you, it doesn't work this way! There will be cases that you won't have to be too analytical with your rests, but for now just do it like I describe it.

4. Ties and slurs are two different things.
Ties: Are slurs that connect sequential notes of different value, to a single note of their added value (duration). They MUST be in the same pitch and next to each other. You can't jump a rest with a tie or anything like that.
Slurs: Are performance instructions about playing a passage in 'legato' mode (so in the piano with each key playing right before the key playing before is lifted... something... somehow...).
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/17/13 11:59 PM

Finally.

Your problems could be solved if you were to rethink your composition and 'orchestration' a little.

Your held notes (that seem to create such a hassle to you) are not necessary to be there actually. Ok, I do understand that you'd like the A held for the whole bar, but really, with the pedalling of the bar, the result will most likely be the same (or close to that). Same goes for chords, etc...

Of course it's an opportunity to learn more stuff, and this thread has been wonderful I think, but none the less it's worth reconsidering what you're doing and why.

Your music is not polyphonic in nature (like a Bach work), so your need for inner voicing, multiple voices/layers/etc is not crucial I think.
Posted by: Charles Peck

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 12:27 AM

With regards to the way you are notating slurs over some of the big jumps, I think you are probably using it quite loosely and more as a phrase mark.

I just don't see how a pianist will possibly make the jump in measure 25 and 29 and play the accent, while maintaining any sense of legato. They are however capable of performing it as part of one phrase if that is how you intend it. But I don't think you really need to notate that, it seems clear to me. The constant 16ths and the continuous pattern in the left hand let the performer know that you are working in one phrase still.

So I would suggest either writing in the term legato (lowercase, italicized, and in between the staves) or indentify where the player will actually be able to play legato style fingering and mark slurs accordingly.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 12:38 AM

Yes, feel very blessed to be getting all of this education from everyone here. Thank you all very much.

-

Quote:
Your held notes (that seem to create such a hassle to you) are not necessary to be there actually. Ok, I do understand that you'd like the A held for the whole bar, but really, with the pedalling of the bar, the result will most likely be the same (or close to that). Same goes for chords, etc...


Nikolas, usually this would work except for that the right hand needs to be holding down the A AND playing staccato chords with fingers 1 and 2. So I DO need to notate that it MUST be held down somehow. I now think "l.v." works best, or perhaps adding another voice.

-

This whole process has actually been quite overwhelming, in both good and bad ways. It's a lot to take in and I'm realizing just how many rules there are that I don't know. That's the stressful part. I sort of know what I'm doing but not fully. The most I can do (for now) is to try to take in as much advice from everyone here. I AM trying and I'm not going to give up. My ultimate goal with this piece is to perfect the score, record myself playing, and then post the recording in the Pianist's Corner with the score available.

Anyway...

About multiple voices and their rests, where do I notate the rests of voice-2 if voice-1 is cluttering the rest of the measure? Below everything?
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 01:25 AM

... Bellow...

Joel, If I had more time in my hands I'd try to notate a few bars for you, but right now I'm completely overwhelmed and can't do *ahem*... frown That's why I keep replying in text rather than a score, which would illustrate everything in the best possible way...

Yes, if you have you move the rest further down, to avoid clashing with the other voice...
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 02:53 AM

I'm revising it again. I just finished page 1. Are there any technical errors this page now?
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 03:25 AM

No glaring errors that I can see!

You are still missing any kind of legato slurs (I would assume you'd like the phrases to be played in legato mode...), but there's nothing wrong with that really...

VERY WELL DONE!

And now my rant to OTHER members (who actually have not participated here): If only these other members here would check out this thread and see how these forums work, this would be a better place... Oh well...
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 03:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Nikolas
No glaring errors that I can see!

You are still missing any kind of legato slurs (I would assume you'd like the phrases to be played in legato mode...), but there's nothing wrong with that really...

VERY WELL DONE!



Thanks!

I didn't incorporate any legato slurs because I have a lot of specific pedal markings and everything outside of the pedal markings really doesn't NEED to be played legato, though I'm sure people naturally will. Whether they decide to connect the notes or have a more detached sound, it doesn't matter as long as they obey the pedal markings. That's important. smile


Quote:
And now my rant to OTHER members (who actually have not participated here): If only these other members here would check out this thread and see how these forums work, this would be a better place... Oh well...

What do you mean?
Posted by: Nikolas

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 03:47 AM

Those who took part in another thread will know what I'm talking about... It's NOT about you, rest assured (plus I like you and you know that! ^_^)
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 04:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Those who took part in another thread will know what I'm talking about... It's NOT about you, rest assured (plus I like you and you know that! ^_^)


Pun intended? Just kidding. lol

Is it that thread that LoPresti started a while back?
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 05:50 AM

I believe it's complete. Unless there are any technical errors in pages 2 and 3, I think it's finished until future notice.

http://pdfuploader.com/uppdfs/781/The_Little_Blue_Brush.pdf

Comments?
Posted by: Schubertslieder

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 08:32 AM

Measure 33 right hand, a leap of two octaves + third, sticks out a bit. If a vocalist, which I am only using as an example in this piano piece, was to sing this 17th leap, wouldn't it be a bit uncomfortable?
Wouldn't a pianist feel similar discomfort playing this huge leap of 17th?
Posted by: PianoStudent88

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 09:10 AM

The RH inner voices in measure 38 still only have three beats. If you mean the sound to be continuous, then the quarter note chord on beat two needs to be a half note.

I mentioned this before but you didn't respond. Did you see my earlier comment?

I see you've changed measure 12 to use a half note A on beat 1. Excellent: that makes the measure and your intent for it very easy to read. It's much clearer than a "let vibrate" would have been.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 09:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Schubertslieder
Measure 33 right hand, a leap of two octaves + third, sticks out a bit. If a vocalist, which I am only using as an example in this piano piece, was to sing this 17th leap, wouldn't it be a bit uncomfortable?
Wouldn't a pianist feel similar discomfort playing this huge leap of 17th?


Haha... go to your piano and try it at around 108bpm. It's very easy, trust me.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 10:02 AM

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
The RH inner voices in measure 38 still only have three beats. If you mean the sound to be continuous, then the quarter note chord on beat two needs to be a half note.

I mentioned this before but you didn't respond. Did you see my earlier comment?


I didn't see your comment, my bad. I don't know what to do about measure 38. I can't put a rest in between beat 3 of voice 2 to give it 4 beats because if I did it would mess up the ties, no?




And silly me-- I went and played this piece at my piano today for the first time since I started working on this score and it is definitely NOT the last revision I will be making. Sorry. lol
Posted by: Schubertslieder

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 10:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Nikolas
It's NOT about you, rest assured (plus I like you and you know that! ^_^)

I too like Joel, but I still think his leaps are fairly huge, gigantic to be honest.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 10:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Schubertslieder
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
It's NOT about you, rest assured (plus I like you and you know that! ^_^)

I too like Joel, but I still think his leaps are fairly huge, gigantic to be honest.


It is what it is, and it can't be changed. smile

If you simply cannot make the jump (which you should be able to with a little practice), simply take the Bb with your left hand, making an octave. Your right hand will have more time.

Posted by: PianoStudent88

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 10:51 AM

Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
The RH inner voices in measure 38 still only have three beats. If you mean the sound to be continuous, then the quarter note chord on beat two needs to be a half note.

I mentioned this before but you didn't respond. Did you see my earlier comment?


I didn't see your comment, my bad. I don't know what to do about measure 38. I can't put a rest in between beat 3 of voice 2 to give it 4 beats because if I did it would mess up the ties, no?

This goes back to our earlier discussion of ties. You restated the rules about ties correctly, previously: to have a tie the notes have to be contiguous.

If you have a rest on beat 3, that means you don't want the notes to be played again on beat 4. It would be, in the inner voices: beat 1, silence. Beat 2, play. Beat 3, silence. Beat 4, play.

If you don't want the notes to be played again but rather held all the way through, then you need to make the note on beat 2 to be a half note, so it will be held through beat 3 and be able to be tied to beat 4.
Posted by: JoelW

Re: Any tips for this score? - 05/18/13 04:53 PM

Ahh, I see. Thanks!