Inside my Kawai CA63

Posted by: AndyT

Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 06:41 AM

I had someone around to have a look at one of my keys. Whilst the cover was off I took a couple of pictures of the innards:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/IMG_5810.jpg

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/IMG_5811.jpg

Cheery bye,

(note - sorry about the large file sizes (~2.7Mb).

Andy T
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 06:46 AM

Cool. Nothing like a bit of digital piano porn to spice up the forum.
Did they find out what was wrong with your key?
Posted by: CSA4EVER

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 07:28 AM

Holy Cow!!!

I'm due any day now for delivery of my CA-93, don't tell me they haven't worked the bugs out of Kawai's new RM3 action!?!!?!!?!!??!!?!?
Posted by: AndyT

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 07:59 AM

Its a long story.

One of the keys was making a clicking noise, so a blokey came and fixed it. He added some grease to the grey square on the bottom of the clicky key, so it now doesn't click. This is when the pictures were taken. After he left I noticed that the key is now slightly lower than the rest of the keys (it may always have been). Maybe about half the thickness of the pretend ivory. I am yet to get them to come out and fix that.
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 08:15 AM

I had a similar problem with 2 keys. They didn't have the same repetition speed than the other keys. It was due to some grease on the teflon part of both of the affected keys.
Posted by: sucroid

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 08:15 AM

Hmm. Kawai CA63 has key and firmware problems. Roland HP-307 has ringing sound. And I can't stand Yamaha's GH action. I guess I'll have to save up some bucks for an AvantGrand.
Posted by: Yuri Pavlov

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 09:26 AM

Any acoustic piano have difference in key's repetition - it is a normal (but I don't know what difference is a normal).... It is mechanic...
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 09:46 AM

Those problems are normal I guess! Now everything works fine!
Posted by: sieg66

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 09:51 AM

Avantgrand is not perfect too, if you reach the escapment point and then press firmly you won't get anysound, on the contrary of a true piano.

For the level of the key, it's just small paper circles in the central pin that have been moved in my opinion when fixing the key. It's a very simple operation to had a new one and level it.

What I see in your pics is that the grey/black square à the end of the key lever is digged, as I explained sometimes ago. I don't know what you call "clicking", but I noticed that the key can be harder to start to depress because of this.
Posted by: AndyT

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 10:32 AM

Originally Posted By: sieg66

What I see in your pics is that the grey/black square à the end of the key lever is digged, as I explained sometimes ago. I don't know what you call "clicking", but I noticed that the key can be harder to start to depress because of this.


I didn't notice any difference in having to press the key harder. The key was originally making a click noise on the return of the key. That is fixed now. We compared the key to another one that wasn't clicking, and as far we we could tell there wasn't a difference..
Posted by: sucroid

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 10:45 AM

Originally Posted By: sieg66
Avantgrand is not perfect too, if you reach the escapment point and then press firmly you won't get anysound, on the contrary of a true piano.


I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that it can't do what the Roland PHA III can?
Posted by: TADutchman

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 11:03 AM

Originally Posted By: kawaian
Those problems are normal I guess! Now everything works fine!


Good to hear that Kawai service is doing a great job, also in this respect. Makes me feel relaxed, having ordered a CA93 smirk
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 11:48 AM

Welcome to pianoworld, Arjan!

Where did you order your CA93? Did you order it after having played one or sight unseen?
Please update the prices paid thread on this forum.

If you live in Holland you might not get the same kind of responsive service in case of problems as in England or Germany since Holland is dependent on the German distributor. Units may have to be returned to Germany for service leaving you without an instrument for a while.
Posted by: sieg66

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 11:48 AM

Originally Posted By: polygon
I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that it can't do what the Roland PHA III can?

No it can't, I have tested on N2 and was surprised. I have tested PHA 3 and it can effectively do it.
Posted by: sucroid

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 11:59 AM

Originally Posted By: sieg66
Originally Posted By: polygon
I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that it can't do what the Roland PHA III can?

No it can't, I have tested on N2 and was surprised. I have tested PHA 3 and it can effectively do it.


That's extremely disappointing for a piano that costs over $10K. I hope Roland puts PHA III on the rest of their DPs in time for the next NAMM show.
Posted by: CSA4EVER

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 12:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Arjan
Originally Posted By: kawaian
Those problems are normal I guess! Now everything works fine!


Good to hear that Kawai service is doing a great job, also in this respect. Makes me feel relaxed, having ordered a CA93 smirk



Hope you enjoy your purchase with NO MORE PROBLEMS!!!!
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 12:14 PM

Yeah. It is a tradition to welcome newbies on most of the forums on pianoworld, although the digital forum is the least congenial in this respect because the unofficial hostess doesn't post here much, so the rest of us have to take up the slack. Sorry we missed you before.

Welcome to pianoworld, CSA4EVER!
Posted by: CSA4EVER

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 12:22 PM

Thanks theJourney,


hehehehe I knew you would be reading!!!!! You are too kind!
Posted by: CSA4EVER

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 12:30 PM

My Best Friend has a Kawai CP-170 and had the "CLICKING" problem with the keys he strikes most. Had a Kawai Tech come out and perform what I expect to be the same service as AndyT although the action on the CP-170 is AWA Pro I think. However, this occurred after having played for a few hours a day for about 5 years. If my CA-93 is to have the same "CLICKING" problem I sure hope it's 5 or more years down the road. For anyone who hasn't experienced this with their DP...It can be EXTREMELY annoying as I heard this on my friends' CP-170 before he had it fixed! Keeping my fingers crossed on the durability of the RM3 Action!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: StevieG

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 12:50 PM

While we're on the subject of newbies...

I just got my Kawai CA63 a few days ago, and so far haven't had any problems - thankfully! It's my first DP, and I have to say it's a revelation - I'm so happy with it. I'm used to accoustic uprights but wanted to play at night, and the CA63 does the job nicely.

Most new uprights need a bit of work on key return, regulation so I'm not surprised the CA63's wooden keys might need some too - I certainly think it's worth the effort.

Thanks for the pics inside, Andy - hope all your issues are resolved.

Cheers
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 01:20 PM

Awright then.

Welcome to pianoworld, StevieG!

And, a big Thank You for updating the prices paid thread, too.

If you or others considered the Yamaha or Roland or Casio before choosing to buy what is now becoming the very popular choice of the Kawai CA63, it would be great if you could share your experiences here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1363086/The
Posted by: TADutchman

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 03:18 PM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Welcome to pianoworld, Arjan!

Where did you order your CA93? Did you order it after having played one or sight unseen?
Please update the prices paid thread on this forum.


Thanks a lot!

From Apeldoorn, it is only a 20 minute drive to Van Oldeniel in Deventer. Over there I went back and forth between the CA111 and the CA63, enthusiastically concluding that the CA93 seems to combine the best of both worlds. The combination of action and sound is just great on the CA63 up to moderate volumes! For higher volumes and for getting a real experience, I definitely prefer the soundboard system of the CA93/CA111. (by the way, I know audio DSP very well and have played most software piano's before, but nothing comes close, except for the avantime maybe)

Actually, based on the technical specifications (or should I say marketing material), I originally wanted to buy a Roland HP 307, but I was very disappointed after testdriving it for about one and a half hour. The speaker system is not balanced properly; it does have a heavy bass, but the higher frequencies sound extremely harsh and digital (yes, I've read topics on this forum about this). After going through all the settings myself, trying to get it right, I asked for the guy at Oostendorp Wezep to assist, but the result was still quite unsatisfactory to my ears. The samples are way too clean to be realistic. For reference, I then tried several Yamaha DP's including the CLP 380, but in the end I only found the CVP 409 just acceptable for quality (not for price, way too expensive).
Posted by: Nachtschatten

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/29/10 04:52 PM

Hi Arjan,

slightly OT, sorry: I saw you were at the Oostendorp shop in Wezep. Any chance to play + test their 'Digital Classic' line? I found their sound with speakers really good (even with the inferior DP's they put into them), see my dedicated thread (now quite buried as not updated for some time). Over headphones it's a different story. I ended up ordering a custom-made solution with the Roland RD-700GX incl. the SuperNatural piano upgrade. I'll also update my other thread shortly + provide some insights once I have received it. Only negative was the price tag... Unfortunately I haven't been able to test Kawai longer.
Cheers
Posted by: TADutchman

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/30/10 02:58 AM

Hi Nachtschatten,

Good question :-)
Yes, they were friendly enough to let me try their Digital Classic line too. They look nice, but I was put-off by the mediocre plastic keyboard and the sound generation technology, taken from 'old' Yamaha or Roland stuff. They deliver two options for the speaker system, including a 6-speaker set-up (if I remember correctly). The most expensive speaker option sounds quite good, but not as refined as the Kawai Soundboard + 6-speaker system (as I experienced later on). I told Oostendorp that the Digital Classic line would be interesting for me only when they could build in a better (read: wooden) keyboard and a PC for running a software piano. Although they said that in principle this would be possible and wanted to inform me about better keyboard options after doing some research, I never got any response (at least so far)...
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/30/10 04:16 AM

Did you actually compare the CA111 and the CA93 side by side?
Posted by: TADutchman

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/30/10 04:59 AM

Don't need to: Given the bigger feature-set of the CA93, the substantial improvements in sample-quality, keyboard feel & action (and slight improvements to the speaker system) that would be a terrible experience for the CA111 sleep

I'm suspecting that the CA111 will not be listed in the 2011 Kawai catalogue anymore, but I don't work at Kawai (yet) wink
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/30/10 05:09 AM

The question I have is if there really is a noticeable difference between the CA63 and the CA93. The stores I have enquired by telephone do not / will not stock the CA93 and were even trying to talk me out of it calling it "a bad value" which I found kind of strange for a store trying to maximize sales... They indicated they would only special order it for people but would not provide auditioning in store.

I doubt that I would want to buy the CA63 since they apparently have dumbed-down the brand new RM3 action to not include escapement (which is quickly becoming a market standard for top of the line cabinet digital pianos) and which I want since I use the dp to practice and study for playing on a grand. Since I play 80% of the time with headphones, I can't see myself spending an extra 1000 euros on the combination of escapement and a so-called soundboard speaker system that in my case would be idle most of the time...

Really looking forward to your feedback after you have played it and owned it a while. So far, the owners of the CA63 are quite happy.
Posted by: AndyT

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/30/10 05:26 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
So far, the owners of the CA63 are quite happy.


Indeed I am smile. Personally, I have only ever messed around on uprights and do not like the escapement feel. I am glad that the CA63 does not have escapement.

I have played on a CA111 and it may have been that it wasn't set up correctly, but I found that the speaker placement was quite poor. I didn't feel that the sound was directed towards the player. When I had a go on a CA93, I found that the it did not have this problem.

Andy T
Posted by: TADutchman

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/30/10 05:30 AM

Oh, I see. Actually, when I visited Van Oldeniel in Deventer, he was quite willing to order a CA93 (I could select the cabinet finish for a demo model CA93) if I was serious about either buying a CA63 or CA93 or CA111...
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/30/10 05:45 AM

Originally Posted By: sieg66

For the level of the key, it's just small paper circles in the central pin that have been moved in my opinion when fixing the key. It's a very simple operation to had a new one and level it.


Yes. Say, the adjustment error is about 0,5mm that might be half the thickness of the white keytops, then a 0,25mm thick paper washer would be necessary for compensation.

Originally Posted By: sieg66

What I see in your pics is that the grey/black square à the end of the key lever is digged, as I explained sometimes ago. I don't know what you call "clicking", but I noticed that the key can be harder to start to depress because of this.


This is normal. All keys have it. It is not digged, but impressed. The grey square is a smooth pillow, covered with a thin layer of teflon.

I do such stuff myself. Dont need to call a technician for this...
It is rather simple.

Peter
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/30/10 07:39 AM

It sure sounds like the Kawai keyboards tend to be a bit fussy often requiring service visits even right away new out of box or during the first year or later requiring " regulation ". Guess that is the price to pay of trying to more closely emulate a realistic pivot point and hammer throw and using lots of wood.

The Yamaha keys have been reported to get sluggish and need replacement after many years of use.

On the other hand one rarely hears any complaints about the Roland keys other than some quality control problems with the fake ivory coating on the 207s.

Something to bear in mind for those of us who don't have any servicing dealers anywhere close.
Posted by: AndyT

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/30/10 09:14 AM

It seems to me that Kawai just needs some better quality control. If someone had just played every key on my CA63 they would have noticed that one of the keys was slightly out of whack.

Andy T
Posted by: Volusiano

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/30/10 11:27 AM

Originally Posted By: sieg66
Avantgrand is not perfect too, if you reach the escapment point and then press firmly you won't get anysound, on the contrary of a true piano.

Not sure what you're talking about here. The Avant-Grand definitely has double escapement. I have an N3 and when I let the key back up about half-way and press down again, I always get a sound. But if you don't let the key back up far enough to the half way point where the jack's tip get under the knuckle enough to force the hammer shank back up again(see this link and click on the red "action in motion" link to see the animation), the hammer is not going to be able to travel up to make the strike.

If you want to describe in details exactly what you did to test, I can try it out on my N3 and let you know the result. The N2 has the same action so it should behave the same.
Posted by: Volusiano

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/30/10 11:31 AM

Originally Posted By: polygon
Originally Posted By: sieg66
Originally Posted By: polygon
I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that it can't do what the Roland PHA III can?

No it can't, I have tested on N2 and was surprised. I have tested PHA 3 and it can effectively do it.


That's extremely disappointing for a piano that costs over $10K. I hope Roland puts PHA III on the rest of their DPs in time for the next NAMM show.


If you guys are talking about double escapement action here, the Avant-Grand has it and can do it. I'm not sure why Sieg66 can't reproduce it on the N2 he tested. I can get it to work on my N3 just fine. The N2 has the same action. Maybe he didn't raise the key back up high enough. You don't need to raise it a lot, but you need to raise it back a little bit, just like an acoustic key.
Posted by: sieg66

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/30/10 06:11 PM

Hi,

I just say that when you depress the key till the hard point without passing it, and then push firmly enough you get a sound in every accoustic, but I wasn't able to reproduce this with the avantgrand.
Posted by: Volusiano

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/30/10 08:56 PM

Originally Posted By: sieg66
Hi,
I just say that when you depress the key till the hard point without passing it, and then push firmly enough you get a sound in every accoustic, but I wasn't able to reproduce this with the avantgrand.

Hi Sieg66, I assume that by "the hard point" you mean about the half way point when you start pushing down slowly on the key until you feel resistance, right?

When you pushed down from this point, did you push fast enough? If you pushed too slowly (even if firmly), the hammer shank will be raised too slowly and gravity will have time to pull it back down to the back check before the hammer has a chance to strike the string. If you pushed down quickly enough, the hammer shank will be raised fast enough that the hammer will strike the string before being pulled back down by gravity.

When I tested my N3, I did get a sound from the half way point if I pressed the key quickly enough from there. But if I pressed the key too slowly, I don't get a sound (like what you reported). I think this is the desired behavior.

If other acoustic keyboards you've tried make a sound even when you pressed down slowly from the half way point, I'd say that their action is probably too sensitive. A sound is only desired if there's a purposeful "strike" (with quick enough action). But it's not desired if you just slowly bump on a key by accident (maybe while still having a finger on it for sustain).
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 03:39 AM

My understanding of the AvantGrand is that its action can be regulated as an acoustic piano action (although not to the same extent). It would be interesting to get feedback from anyone who has adjusted the touch of their AvantGrand.

OT: Horowitz's Steinway with its modified touch was in Holland recently at the Steinway Center so people feel how he preferred his pianos to be prepared.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 04:24 AM

Originally Posted By: AndyT
It seems to me that Kawai just needs some better quality control. If someone had just played every key on my CA63 they would have noticed that one of the keys was slightly out of whack.

Andy T


That is not possible with traditional methods.
How much time can a workers man spend with a piano? If he spends 30 minutes then he can check 16 pianos at one day. And if I did it, after the 8th piano I would start to get tired and make mistakes....
And you would need a motivated specialist or a piano enthusiast for that and there is more to check... Where can you get such reliable people if you do mass production in indonesia and elsewhere?

I like the action and the touch of Kawai pianos, but I think they could make parts like the pivot hole and other from high impact synthetics, ad justable by screws and glue those parts into the wood and then adjust them with screws, not paper washers. I believe, it is not required for a digital to do everything in the traditional way.

How much time did they need to develop the new action, and it is basically not a new development but it is the same principle with a better adjustment. A talented piano tecnician can develop this within some weeks. What did they do all the past years? ;-) There is somthing new required with escapement touch and 3 sensor technology.

I believe, innovation and technology is not their strongest point ;-)

Peter
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 04:43 AM

One could argue that Kawai may be too small of a company to be attempting to do what they are attempting to do.
Posted by: AndyT

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 05:05 AM

Originally Posted By: hpeterh

That is not possible with traditional methods.
How much time can a workers man spend with a piano? If he spends 30 minutes then he can check 16 pianos at one day.


I would say a quick visual check to see if the keys are all lined up + playing all the keys just once to see if it feels and sounds correct (possibly without the sound switched on). I don't think that would take longer than 1 minute.

Andy
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 05:55 AM

Originally Posted By: AndyT
Originally Posted By: hpeterh

That is not possible with traditional methods.
How much time can a workers man spend with a piano? If he spends 30 minutes then he can check 16 pianos at one day.


I would say a quick visual check to see if the keys are all lined up + playing all the keys just once to see if it feels and sounds correct (possibly without the sound switched on). I don't think that would take longer than 1 minute.

Andy


Perhaps hptech is extrapolating his or her reasoning from German trade union rules. grin "Sorry, it is not my job to make sure our digital pianos meet specs. I just work here!"
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 06:51 AM

Now I think, the problems, that are spoken about, are rather subtle problems.
A key makes a slight noise, another might be a little bit tight and so on. It is natural material and to some degree such problems are normal. Possibly these problems are not good reproducible and might be subject to clima and temperature.

I never heard about Kawai keyboards with really bad defects. If there are problems, they are always subtle.

If you have a person that must check it and if this person is not a piano player how does he/she know an precise good/bad criteria. He/she will not know it without measuring.
And you will need a quiet and clean working environment for this. This can be expensive in a mass production factory.

I still remember how difficult it was to check the keyboard when I was in the piano store ;-)

And this will take longer than one minute, if each key is as carefully checked as the customer will do it. That will cost a lot of money.

And, lets assume, that takes a Minute: Would you trust a person, that tests 8x60=480 keyboards a day at the assembly line? Such a person must be ill silly and unreliable, otherwise he/she couldnt do the job ;-)


So the only method for improvement is to use more precise material (synthetics) at the critical points.
Posted by: AndyT

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 06:57 AM

I disagree. I think a very quick inspection would stop 90% of the cases. I am not a piano player, and I instantly knew that the key was dodgy, within about a minute of sitting down to play.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 07:00 AM

Interesting also that Kawai has moved to ABS and other space age materials in its wooden pianos -- and has taken a lot of flack for having done so -- yet for its digital pianos where plastics abound it has decided to go the wood route. Weird.

From the point of view of consumers getting help with problems, sometimes the only thing worse than a "subtle" problem is an intermittent problem....
Posted by: dewster

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 08:30 AM

Originally Posted By: AndyT
I disagree. I think a very quick inspection would stop 90% of the cases. I am not a piano player, and I instantly knew that the key was dodgy, within about a minute of sitting down to play.

It would be my luck to end up owning one of those 10% cases that manages to sneak through the QC inspection.

I don't want wood anywhere near my DP - manufacturers never met a corner they wouldn't and didn't cut in every possible way imaginable.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 09:21 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Weird.


KAWAI acoustic pianos do indeed contain action parts manufactured from composite materials (ABS and ABS Carbon), however the keyboard itself is still made from wood.

Not so weird really, when you think about it.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 09:49 AM

Whatever you think about a wooden action, I really love it and would prefer it over any plastic key action, at least the ones I tried so far (and that's pretty much all of the brand key actions). I love the long wooden keys that add so much realism to the playing experience. I also had the opportunity to see my keyboard open, and I was really impressed about what I have seen. It's very easy to fix any problems with the key action, everything is easy to reach, and seems very reliable.
Posted by: sieg66

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 02:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Volusiano
Hi Sieg66, I assume that by "the hard point" you mean about the half way point when you start pushing down slowly on the key until you feel resistance, right?

When I tested my N3, I did get a sound from the half way point if I pressed the key quickly enough from there. But if I pressed the key too slowly, I don't get a sound (like what you reported). I think this is the desired behavior.

Thanks for these informations, I will try again when I'll return to the piano shop, soon, because when I tried the N2 with headphone I wasn't able to get a sound doing the way you explain.
Posted by: Andree

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 04:13 PM

The KAWAI CA93/63 is the king of DP:s!
Posted by: Nachtschatten

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 06:06 PM

Here's a Roland promotional video, already a bit older, talking about quality control:

http://www.roland.com/video/page.cfm?vid=19200468&page=4

Even if you take away the promo blabla, it looks as if they go to some lengths to ensure durability. However, no indication is given what tests are done on the regular production units - I guess they don't let them be played millions of times...

Probably Kawai (and Yamaha) have something similar. However, I was surprised when I saw one of the first announcements of the HP3xx series last autumn, it contained some numbers of expected sales. It was just a couple of thousand units per year - not exactly products selling like fresh bread...

Really, it would be great to have someone like Kawai James for the other companies around here to answer some of these questions. There was someone from Yamaha around here who posted a couple of times, but then disappeared again (wasn't it Yamaha Moose?).

Cheers
Posted by: ChrisA

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 03/31/10 06:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Nachtschatten
...I saw one of the first announcements of the HP3xx series last autumn, it contained some numbers of expected sales. It was just a couple of thousand units per year - not exactly products selling like fresh bread......


That just shows you the size of the piano market. How'd you like to be selling acoustic pianos? Not exactly a line at the checkout register. The Roland HP and Yamaha CLP series are designed specifically to be sold be low-volume dealers one unit at a time. Given their price I'd expect sales to be slow.

On the other hand the Roland RD700GX, Yamaha YDP and so on are sold on-line and at the huge mega-music stores where you do in fact sometimes find a line at the register.

The consumer market is very price sensitive and I'd guess most buyers would not even think to walk into any place other than the big stores or look on-line. When I was shopping for a DP I did not even see on Roland HP or one Yamaha Clavinova on display in any of ther places I went, would not even know where to look for one. Of course the numbers are low.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/01/10 02:14 AM

I agree. Of course the numbers are low, even for the low end models the numbers are low compared to other mainstream consumer products.

Who the hell plays the piano these days, anyway?

Could each of us find 5 people in among our friends, family and acquaintances who would be both interested in and able to make the same purchase we are (considering)?
Posted by: surething

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/01/10 02:45 AM

True. Part of the issue here, is probably, a not well founded perception that one can only learn piano at ones childhood. Which is not the case. One can only become a virtuoso, if one starts very early in one's life. If people realised, they can have a spiritual adventure with music also later in their lives - the market would definitely grow by some 30%. However, one obstacle is still there, bad taste for bad compositions, badly reproduced, by bad equipment. So called unvoluntary bad musical 'education' which kills musical sensitivity and imagination. Also, unnecessary sentimentalism of mainstream radio shack 'compositions' accompanied with emotional exhibitionism. You do not really need a good instrument to make a bad music. Do you? Bottleneck. Cheers.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/01/10 03:10 AM

Don't forget that although leisure time has increased dramatically during the past century, it has been filled up with lots of passive activities such as TV watching rather than social and active pursuits at the same time that universal music education in many Western countries has been decimated.

Also, the idea of delayed gratification and having to invest time and discipline into an art or craft has been replaced with instant relief and bright and shiny entertainment. And, the expectation from widespread recordings that only impossibly perfect renditions pieced together and processed in a studio are worthy to listen to.

Music today is almost exclusively something people listen to passively that is produced by a class of "experts", on your ipod or other individual devices, not make yourself actively together with social company.

Combine that with illusory phenomenon such as guitar hero computer games and even the relative to piano popular guitar is under threat as a seroius pursuit. Kids declare victory that they can play the guitar by pressing some colored buttons on their Wii.

Having said that, I am amazed at the number of adult piano students that I come across in Amsterdam. The 35+ crowd is really figuring out that it is possible to learn to play the piano to quite a high standard as an adult if you have 1-2 hours a day and the desire. On my street alone there are two adult beginners and at least a dozen households that all have adults at home playing the piano regularly. The growth for many piano teachers is coming from adult students.
Posted by: jmmec

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/01/10 09:48 AM

Well said!

At the other extreme, take a look at this video (and his other videos); he plays an RD 700GX. I think these are good example of creative, and wide ranging, musical capabilities. I'm impressed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olQB9QqCqAU
Posted by: TADutchman

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/02/10 07:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Andree
The KAWAI CA93/63 is the king of DP:s!


Taking also value for money into the equation, I tend to agree (at least currently). cool
Posted by: Andree

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/02/10 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By: TADutchman
Originally Posted By: Andree
The KAWAI CA93/63 is the king of DP:s!


Taking also value for money into the equation, I tend to agree (at least currently). cool


The KAWAI CA93/63 is the king of DP:s = Good value for money smile
Posted by: sucroid

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/03/10 12:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Andree
Originally Posted By: TADutchman
Originally Posted By: Andree
The KAWAI CA93/63 is the king of DP:s!


Taking also value for money into the equation, I tend to agree (at least currently). cool


The KAWAI CA93/63 is the king of DP:s = Good value for money smile


Even though I really like the Kawai action, I think Roland HP-307 has better bang for the buck.
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/03/10 05:04 PM

Mabe for you... For me it's 70-80% Keyboard action and feel, 20-30% Sound (which is also replaceable). The HP-307 is much more expensive. I can buy a brand new more than suitable laptop including a great software piano (e.g. Alicias Keys) for the additional money you have to pay for HP-307 compared to CA63.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/03/10 05:11 PM

Kawai CA-63 street price: euro 2025

HP-307 street price: euro 2499

Not having to use a laptop with loose wires and a software piano to use your expensive, integrated console piano in your own living room: priceless.

And this is ignoring the apples and oranges comparison where the HP-307 offers many, many more voices, a real piano designer functionality, a three track recorder instead of two and, significantly, especially considering your weighting of 70-80% for the keyboard: the top of the line keyboard from Roland including escapement.

To get even close to that keyboard functionality with Kawai, you would need to spend in excess of euro 3000 and still come up short...
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/03/10 05:31 PM

Please, theJourney, don't talk about keyboards you haven't played yet yourself, it's a little bit too much looking to just specs.

I have played both keyboards, and I like the Kawai keyboard action much better. You can argue about this, but the long wooden keys are really making a difference in realism, and I don't care about the escapement action which is pretty much meaningless to me. And, although not a must-have, I prefer wood over the Rolands plastic.

The situation regarding sound is a little bit more open, but still I like the sound signature of the CA-63 better than the HP-307, although the effects and technical details are undoubtly better on HP-307. And I don't say I NEED a laptop for m CA-63, I can live very well with the sound of the digital piano, it sounds very convincing and is very playable. It's only that you COULD replace the sound in the future for both models, so you don't necessarily need the absolute perfect sound for the DP.

The other things like 3-track compared to 2-track (what a joke), real piano designer functionality (who needs that) and all the additional voices all are just peanuts compared to a realistic playable keyboard action.

And still, I think it's a matter of taste: For both the keyboard action and the sound signature. Your conclusion about the increased price of KAWAI if it would have the same functionality as Roland is pure speculation and nothing we can really discuss about.

BTW, I don't know where you get your street prices from, but the real street price of CA-63 is about 2.080, of Roland HP-307 about 2.650 which is a real difference of 570 Euro.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/03/10 07:37 PM

kawaian, I expect the HP-307's Piano Designer functionality will appeal to the growing number of people that enjoy tweaking the tonal character of their piano's sound. This flexibility is perhaps something that could be improved in KAWAI's Virtual Technician in future.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/04/10 02:54 AM

Originally Posted By: kawaian
Please, theJourney, don't talk about keyboards you haven't played yet yourself, it's a little bit too much looking to just specs.

I have played a CA63 keyboard twice now.
No one has a CA93 to play and I have not yet been able to play all the models side by side, but I have played the CA63.

Originally Posted By: kawaian

I have played both keyboards, and I like the Kawai keyboard action much better. You can argue about this, but the long wooden keys are really making a difference in realism, and I don't care about the escapement action which is pretty much meaningless to me. And, although not a must-have, I prefer wood over the Rolands plastic.

You do realize the irony of saying that a realistic feature of replicating a grand piano action (escapement) is meaningless while saying that trying to emulate with plastic resins an obsolete, anachronistic, outlawed, animal-endangering substance (ivory) covering a material that is subject to high manufacturing variances and is sensitive to environmental changes (wooden keys) in an instrument (digital piano) that is traditionally built using plastic parts is making a difference in realism, don't you?
Originally Posted By: kawaian

The situation regarding sound is a little bit more open, but still I like the sound signature of the CA-63 better than the HP-307,

Sound signature or tone is very much a matter of personal preference. However, the very short sustain, meager string resonance, static sampling and very low effective polyphony offered by the Kawai might be considered deficient on objective terms as well. Not to mention the small number of alternative sounds on offer to give your ear a break or have some fun in between practice.
Originally Posted By: kawaian

although the effects and technical details are undoubtly better on HP-307.

Here we are in agreement.
Originally Posted By: kawaian

And I don't say I NEED a laptop for m CA-63, I can live very well with the sound of the digital piano, it sounds very convincing and is very playable. It's only that you COULD replace the sound in the future for both models, so you don't necessarily need the absolute perfect sound for the DP.

Of course you COULD replace the sound in future for the Roland too ..... yet you mentioned it in the context of the Kawai sound versus that from Roland. 'nuff said.
Originally Posted By: kawaian

The other things like 3-track compared to 2-track (what a joke), real piano designer functionality (who needs that) and all the additional voices all are just peanuts compared to a realistic playable keyboard action.

Certainly you do realize that your rather narrow needs may not be the same as other consumers who have other or more needs?

Have you played the PHA-III keyboard from Roland to compare it to the RM3 from Kawai? Are you really saying that you think that the plastic keyboards from Roland (and the very, very many plastic keyboards sold on Kawai's best selling models) are unplayable?

Originally Posted By: kawaian

And still, I think it's a matter of taste: For both the keyboard action and the sound signature. Your conclusion about the increased price of KAWAI if it would have the same functionality as Roland is pure speculation and nothing we can really discuss about.

Although no store I have come across seems willing to actually stock and take risk on a CA93, it is certainly not speculation that to enjoy a Kawai dp with a competitive keyboard with escapement one must pay over 3000 euros (see prices paid thread) while still having much less sounds and technological capabilities compared to the Roland.
Originally Posted By: kawaian

BTW, I don't know where you get your street prices from, but the real street price of CA-63 is about 2.080, of Roland HP-307 about 2.650 which is a real difference of 570 Euro.

I have firm quotes for both instruments from bonafide dealers including delivery and in the case of the Roland a pair of headphones. I expect that there will be further downward pressure on prices for those that can wait another year before buying.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/04/10 06:07 AM

theJourney, I'm glad to hear that you've finally been able to play-test a CA63. May I ask if your dealer visit incurred an expensive train ticket or required driving a long distance?

Perhaps you would also like to share your thoughts about the new 'RM3 Grand' action and 'UPHI' sound technology - how do the instrument's touch and tone compare to the competing Roland HP-305, in your opinion?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: sucroid

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/04/10 07:21 AM

Roland should have put PHA III or virtual technician (or both :)) on HP-305. If I have to choose between HP-305 and CA-63, I think I'll take the latter.
Posted by: sieg66

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/04/10 07:37 AM

Well, I don't understand how someone can prefer pha 3 over kawai wooden keyboard... I tried hp307, and it's the same feeling as pha 2, and I still prefer awa pro 2 over it (and awa pro 1 is even more like a real piano, the problem is just that it's sluggish, or slow). I haven't tried rm3 yet, but if it's like awa pro 1 without beeing sluggish, it should be very nice.

I don't know which accoustic piano pha 3 is supposed to emulate, but the kawai wooden keyboards feel far more natural. But it surely depends wich AP we are talking about. For example steinway and old pleyel piano are soft and very controlable, whereas yamaha's have a harder touch.
Posted by: sucroid

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/04/10 08:26 AM

Originally Posted By: sieg66
Well, I don't understand how someone can prefer pha 3 over kawai wooden keyboard... I tried hp307, and it's the same feeling as pha 2, and I still prefer awa pro 2 over it (and awa pro 1 is even more like a real piano, the problem is just that it's sluggish, or slow). I haven't tried rm3 yet, but if it's like awa pro 1 without beeing sluggish, it should be very nice.

I don't know which accoustic piano pha 3 is supposed to emulate, but the kawai wooden keyboards feel far more natural. But it surely depends wich AP we are talking about. For example steinway and old pleyel piano are soft and very controlable, whereas yamaha's have a harder touch.


I think there is general agreement that Kawai action feels better than PHA II/III. I have expressed elsewhere on this forum that the Roland keys felt fake to me in the sense that I have never played any AP that felt like a Roland. However, if one is looking for double escapement, then there aren't that many choices. Yamaha NW/GH3, PHA-III, Casio. (Does CA 93 have double escapement?) And in my opinion, in terms of combined features per $, Roland HP-307 is currently the one that seems best to me. When I was at a Roland+Kawai dealer 2 months ago, I told the salesman how I wished there were a DP that combines the best of Roland and that of Kawai. The AvantGrand seems to be the answer but it is way out of my budget.

I think next year is going to be interesting (maybe that's my wishful thinking.)
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/04/10 08:40 AM

polygon, which Casio product features an escapement/let-off simulation?
Also, are you sure about NW/GH3 too?

Hmmm...perhaps we are thinking about different things?
Are you perhaps referring to triple sensor vs. dual sensor?
By escapement/let-off I am referring to the notch/click sensation felt when playing keys very gently.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: Andree

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/04/10 09:22 AM

When talking keyboard actions I have seen some who complain about the lack of triple sensors in Kawai's keyboards. For me it's unnecessary to have triple sensors when you have developed a perfect and natural action already. How many sensors do you think there are in an acoustic piano? Multi sensor technology is a perfect method to use for compensation to unreal movements in non-fundamental mechanics.

theJourney, I would like to tell you that changing the reverb setting will give you a very long and beautiful sustain. "Hall 1" is incredible and much more natural than corresponding setting in the Roland for example.
Posted by: CSA4EVER

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/04/10 10:19 AM

Gentlemen, gentlemen Please!LOL The dealer that sold me my CA-93 was also a Kawai+Roland Dealer. So, I had the pleasure of also playing the Roland HP-307. Without "choosing sides" theJourney has made the best points in that the broader spectrum of people looking to buy a DP would probably tend to lean towards the 307 due to the fact that it does actually have more bells and whistles. The ability to tweak the tonal sound of each piano setting on the 307 is very nice as well. Like theJourney, I also don't agree that the 3 track recorder over the 2 track is mere "peanuts". The 307 almost came home with me due to this as I sometimes like to lay down 3 tracks instead of two. When it's all said and done though, I chose the Kawai because of the more accoustic like feel. Sounds like theJourney would choose the Roland. I respect his opinion. In his words......"'nuff said"
Posted by: sucroid

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/04/10 11:01 AM

Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
polygon, which Casio product features an escapement/let-off simulation?
Also, are you sure about NW/GH3 too?

Hmmm...perhaps we are thinking about different things?
Are you perhaps referring to triple sensor vs. dual sensor?
By escapement/let-off I am referring to the notch/click sensation felt when playing keys very gently.

Cheers,
James
x


Sorry for causing confusion. For me, that the third sensor allows quick repetition with keys half-depressed is what I'm think is an important feature. Certainly, having the third sensor without the actual notch/click (i.e. escapement feel) is not entirely realistic. However, having the escapement feel without that third sensor is just weird on keys that are supposed to mimic grand piano action.

I think both the HP-307 and CA-63 leave some room for improvement and it seems to me that Yamaha Roland, Kawai realize what kind of competition they are up against when each of them has excellence in different aspects of improving the DP.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/04/10 11:40 AM

Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
theJourney, I'm glad to hear that you've finally been able to play-test a CA63. May I ask if your dealer visit incurred an expensive train ticket or required driving a long distance?

Perhaps you would also like to share your thoughts about the new 'RM3 Grand' action and 'UPHI' sound technology - how do the instrument's touch and tone compare to the competing Roland HP-305, in your opinion?

Cheers,
James
x


It turned into a 3 hour return car trip by driving outside of rush hour with a short morning session, a nice lunch and then an afternoon session. The store only stocked Kawai digitals.

I played a CA63, a CN22, an ES6, a CL25 a CA18 and an MP8II all with my Sennheiser HD600s.

The salespeople didn't know anything about the CA63. They did have one of those glass boxes with an RM3 and another with a AWA PRO II so you could compare the two. The salesman warned me however, that the RM3 on display was only valid for the CA93 which he did not stock and did not consider good value as he steered me towards a CA111.

I thought that all the instruments were quite playable; I generally prefer and enjoy Kawai actions. There were two others in the store who had been looking at Roland who also preferred the Kawai. The touch of the CA63 was more to my liking as it is heavier than that on the CA18 but the CN22 was also quite playable (I play a Kawai RX-2 at home with the old action).

I thought that the action was much quieter than the Roland and that the Kawai felt more like playing on a real instrument. The Roland HP-307 feels somehow like the whole thing is giving way and resonating noisily as if it is made with cardboard boxes and duct tape whereas the Kawai was more solid. I also really enjoyed playing the MP8II and can understand why it would be popular. I wonder if we will be seeing a replacement from Kawai soon.

If I were to follow Kawaian's advice and buy a Kawai now to connect to a software piano, I would probably choose a discounted CA18 instead, although I don't know if it has the connectivity capabilities.

I spent the most time on the CA63. I was initially not impressed with the piano sound on CA63. The sustain was particularly short and lifeless. I also found the dynamics unnatural and much less controllable as on the Roland. The HP-305 has the super natural piano sound which I think is better executed than the UPHI technology (while having the older PHA-II keyboard). The longer I played on the CA63 the more I liked the fact that it didn't get that fat, overprocessed, cheesy sound that can sometimes come out of the Roland. It sounded more European than the Roland. I fooled around with the touch settings and tried to have it take my touch and was able to get better control of dynamics and articulation. I think that the CA63 is quite a nice instrument that would benefit from additional improvements in its sound engine and including the fully featured RM3 keyboard. I am still looking forward to the opportunity to play a Kawai CA93, a Roland HP307 and a Yamaha CLP 380 and AvantGrand N2 on the same visit so that I can update this thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1363086/The
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/04/10 04:31 PM

Thank you theJourney for sharing your impressions!

It could be almost my own impression of the instruments, but using other words.

Two comments:

Unfortunately taking CA18 as a software piano doesn't work because this very basic DP does not have MIDI connectivity.

Regarding the keyboard action of CA93: I guess you won't be very impressed by the CA93 keyboard action because while it has the escapement feature it does not have a 3-point sensor so that there is no improvement in repetition. So for me it's more like a "fake" escapement improvement over the CA63 which is in my view not worth the money. The one thing that might be worth the additional bucks is the wooden resonance speaker system which will improve the loudspeaker sound of the CA93. For those who are mainly using headphones this could also be neglectible.

It's a pity that you could not compare the KAWAIs directly with the Roland action and sound, I think this would have been very helpful.

It also helped me to compare the KAWAI keyboard action directly with several acoustic pianos (Yamaha, Schimmel, KAWAI, N3) which I played in the same piano store, which strengthened my impression of the CA-Action to be very realistic and near to many of the acoustic pianos.

Posted by: TADutchman

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/05/10 03:25 AM

Originally Posted By: kawaian
The one thing that might be worth the additional bucks is the wooden resonance speaker system which will improve the loudspeaker sound of the CA93.

The CA93 also features 4 top mid-range (+ 2 front tweeter) loudspeakers for a more acoustic surround-feeling and 20 additional samples, including a Honky Tonk, 3 New Age Piano's, 2 E.P.'s, Chamber Strings and Pizzicato...
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/05/10 03:41 AM

theJourney,

Thank you for sharing your experiences of your visit to the KAWAI dealer - by all accounts, it sounds like you had quite a pleasant day.

Just to clarify one thing:

Originally Posted By: theJourney
They did have one of those glass boxes with an RM3 and another with a AWA PRO II so you could compare the two.


Did the 'RM3 Grand' action sample have the explanation board attached?

Originally Posted By: theJourney
The salesman warned me however, that the RM3 on display was only valid for the CA93...


This is incorrect. The 'RM3 Grand' sample consists of three keys. The left-white and centre-black key feature let-off simulation, while the right-white key does not. Thus the action sample is valid for both the CA93 and CA63 (with and without let-off, respectively). This point should be clear from the sticker attached to the perspex cover.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/05/10 03:55 AM

Nothing was clear about the RM3 action from this visit.
The salespeople clearly were not educated, trained, informed to do their job properly.

One gets the impression that retail stores such as this one only survive by "being there" and serving those customers who are as unprepared or less informed than they are.

In this case the store:
- did not stock other brands to provide a useful auditioning and shopping experience;
- was not familiar with the features of the instrument and could not advise me and in fact misled me;
- did not have training on the new instrument or the point of sale merchandising aids;
- was mentioning an inflated MSRP that was incongruous with the advertized MRSP of other channels;
- was asking a higher "discounted" price than the MRSP of channels with immediate delivery;
- did not stock the instruments and indicated that there could be as long as a several week wait;
- would charge extra for delivery and setup;

So, for me, the only added value they provided was actually having made one model of the new dps available for auditioning. However, I would be crazy to give them as much as 450 euros for this privilege since I still have to find a store with usable auditioning facilities and after auditioning one can choose to purchase online for immediate delivery at a competitive price.
Posted by: TADutchman

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/05/10 05:43 AM

Maybe I missed something, but which store did you go to? Was it in/near Amsterdam? I'm surprised that they still exist anyway, given that everything you are telling is true they cannot be real experts for any DP brand (so we're not talking about flaming, right?). Luckily, my personal experience with a Kawai store is quite different from yours...
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/05/10 06:12 AM

van Urk, Rotterdam
The only store I found in the Randstad stocking the Kawais.

BTW, it's none of my business, but you were not even able to audition the CA93 at your dealer because they did not have one and do not stock it. So, the question is: what in the world is the added value of the dealer you bought from?

After all, you now have to wait weeks and weeks to take delivery and are paying a relatively high price.

Instead, you could be enjoying your digital piano right now and with the 400 euros you saved you could have gone to a Michelin starred restaurant for a luxury meal to celebrate.

http://www.thomann.de/nl/kawai_ca_93_r_set.htm
Posted by: TADutchman

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/05/10 08:12 AM

Any careful reader would know the difference between a good package deal and a bare delivery from abroad with mediocre components. I actually used this exact link to negotiate with Van Oldeniel on quality of service and price for quality components, so the hint is a litte late (and I don't like rosewood) wink
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/05/10 08:32 AM

Good deal, hmmm. Are you sure you are Dutchman? wink

After all, piano benches are a low value item and are always delivered for free with pianos anyway.

A Sennheiser 595 is only worth about 100 euros more than the phones that come from thomann.

So, you are still short about 300 euros... You would have just have to have ordered a less expensive bottle of wine with that dinner....

Oh and the Satin Black has been available for immediate delivery these last weeks, too. You could be playing on it now instead of talking about it here.

Do you also have the right from van Oldeniel to return your CA93 for full a refund within 30 days if, after finally having the opportunity to actually play one, you decide you don't like it?
Posted by: TADutchman

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/05/10 05:12 PM

After having had a few glasses of wine, I find your reply with some miscalculations and apparantly not knowing about small % differences in general electronics prices between The Netherlands and Germany quite amusing. Let's all move to Germany for the best price & service, Kawai Europe is located there anyway grin Good night sleep
Posted by: pb71

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/06/10 06:12 AM

Originally Posted By: polygon

I think there is general agreement that Kawai action feels better than PHA II/III.


I completely disagree.

If anyone is reading this forum with a view to buying a digital piano please do not take statements like this on face value. Play them yourself.
Posted by: sucroid

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/06/10 06:38 AM

Originally Posted By: pb71
Originally Posted By: polygon

I think there is general agreement that Kawai action feels better than PHA II/III.


I completely disagree.

If anyone is reading this forum with a view to buying a digital piano please do not take statements like this on face value. Play them yourself.


Are you disagreeing that a few Roland owners and some other Kawai owners on this forum have found the Kawai action to feel better or are you disagreeing based on your personal preference? So far I have seen more people favoring the Kawai action than the Roland action on this forum. From this I gathered that the Kawai action is liked more generally. That of course does not exclude the possibility that there exist individuals that hate the Kawai action and love the Roland action. But you are right in saying that one needs to play both before deciding what to buy. I don't think anyone will dispute that.
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/06/10 08:16 AM

Well, I guess there is not such a thing as a "general agreement" on such subjective matters like keyboard action.

I would dare to say that the majority of piano players might prefer the KAWAI action, but again this might be completely different from player to player, based on their specific experience and instruments they played in the past. There are even players that prefer unweighted keyboard action, although quite rare. Some with no acoustic piano experience might also prefer a specific action that is only possible with digital pianos (e.g. not graded, whatever).

So yes, what is definitely general agreement is that you need to play a broad variety of different DP brands in order to build an opinion on your own preference and then buy what you like most and what is in your budget (which is not always the same).

I for myself like the KAWAI action a lot and prefer it definitely over Roland PHA III action.
Posted by: pb71

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/06/10 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By: polygon
Are you disagreeing that a few Roland owners and some other Kawai owners on this forum have found the Kawai action to feel better or are you disagreeing based on your personal preference?

Hi there,

I'm disagreeing based on my own personal preference, and the specific comparison between the pianos and a acoustic grand piano.

I have no idea whether it is true or not that the majority of people on this forum who have tried both pianos say they prefer the Kawai. Even so, my opinion is so extreme on this that it wouldn't matter if I was in a minority of 1%, I would still believe my own fingers / arms / feet / ears.

Originally Posted By: polygon
That of course does not exclude the possibility that there exist individuals that hate the Kawai action and love the Roland action.

Clearly I match that profile! I'm aware that I have the viewpoint of someone who plays classical piano on acoustic grand pianos and requires a digital that offers the best approximation of the acoustic touch and sound. Perhaps not everyone wants the same, and even if they do want the same and prefer the CA93 that's up to them.

I'm just trying to urge people (particularly novices) not to assume the Kawai's action is 'better' because of the received wisdom of a forum. As we all agree, they should try them both if they have the chance.
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/06/10 10:10 AM

Well, pb71, I think we all agree that keyboard action is mainly a personal taste issue. But your arguments are more like "I'm a classical piano player and therefore like the real acoustic grand piano action, and I'm very extreme in this opinion" and this is something I really have problems with. The rationale: It seems like you don't consider other people's opinions, and that's always not the best way to go...

Could you provide us some more details on why you prefer the Roland action, maybe that would help.
Posted by: pb71

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/06/10 11:36 AM

Originally Posted By: kawaian
Well, pb71, I think we all agree that keyboard action is mainly a personal taste issue. But your arguments are more like "I'm a classical piano player and therefore like the real acoustic grand piano action, and I'm very extreme in this opinion" and this is something I really have problems with. The rationale: It seems like you don't consider other people's opinions, and that's always not the best way to go...

Where have I failed to consider other peoples' opinions? Perhaps you missed or misread the part where I said (bold highlight added for clarity):

Originally Posted By: pb71
I'm aware that I have the viewpoint of someone who plays classical piano on acoustic grand pianos and requires a digital that offers the best approximation of the acoustic touch and sound. Perhaps not everyone wants the same, and even if they do want the same and prefer the CA93 that's up to them.

I think that's fairly clear. Nothing I have written on this is imposing my own specific requirements on people, just expressing my own opinions. You (and probably many others) clearly take a different but equally-strong view to mine. That's fine. In contrast your opinion causes me absolutely no problems whatsoever.

Of course it all comes down to personal preference, and while that is obvious I have been careful to state it explicitly in any case. If I am strong in my own opinion it does not logically follow that I don't consider other people's opinions or requirements. I'm sure the CA93 is more suited to other peoples' purposes, and that's great. I'm genuinely pleased for them / you.

Originally Posted By: kawaian
Could you provide us some more details on why you prefer the Roland action, maybe that would help.

Help what? I posted a detailed comparison a few weeks back, a post to which you in fact replied. To refresh your memory here is a link, with the name of the link chosen as considerately as I can:
My comparison of the Roland and Kawai keyboard actions based solely on my individual requirements

Good luck with your Kawai and all the best with it.
Posted by: madshi

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/07/10 02:59 AM

@pb71, I think kawaian's problem with your posts is that they read a little bit like this:

> People prefering the Kawai action are obviously not
> looking for an action which is similar to a real
> acoustic grand piano action.

You didn't explicitly say that, but your posts sound like that. So the question is: Is that really your point of view? Because if it is, you are dismissing the opinion of other people who think that the Kawai action is nearer to a real acoustic grand compared to a Roland action.

I think most people are looking for an action which is near to an acoustic grand piano. You seem to think that you're extreme in that case, but I rather think that most people share your want. The point, however, is that people have different opinions about which action is nearer to an acoustic grand piano. Some people say Kawai, other people say Roland.
Posted by: pb71

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/07/10 05:13 AM

Originally Posted By: madshi
@pb71, I think kawaian's problem with your posts is that they read a little bit like this:

> People prefering the Kawai action are obviously not
> looking for an action which is similar to a real
> acoustic grand piano action.

You didn't explicitly say that, but your posts sound like that. So the question is: Is that really your point of view? Because if it is, you are dismissing the opinion of other people who think that the Kawai action is nearer to a real acoustic grand compared to a Roland action.


Different people base their opinions on different things. My opinion based on the demonstrable differences I noticed between the action of the Kawai and a grand piano (repetition etc), with these differences being less evident on a Roland.

Presumably others have played them both and thought "the Kawai is better because of XYZ". I cannot speculate what "XYZ" is, but only (constantly) spell out the specifics of why I came to my own opinion in case it is of use to anyone else who wants the same.

I'm not intending to dismiss anyone's point of view, just explaining my own.

Originally Posted By: madshi
...
The point, however, is that people have different opinions about which action is nearer to an acoustic grand piano. Some people say Kawai, other people say Roland.


If some people say Kawai is nearer, then they have formed that opinion for other reasons than me, and that is fine. The Roland certainly isn't perfect.

I mitigated my views with my requirements not to "dismiss the opinions of others" rather to put them into context. This was primarily to assist potential buyers and warn them not to take statements on a forum at face value without trying pianos themselves.

Apologies if I've upset any Kawai owners, my intention was to contribute useful information to potential digital piano owners.

I'm quitting this thread now, as I'm sure you're all tired of reading what I'm increasingly tired of having to repeat. Enjoy whatever piano you have and all the best to you.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/07/10 06:58 AM

Originally Posted By: madshi

I think most people are looking for an action which is near to an acoustic grand piano. You seem to think that you're extreme in that case, but I rather think that most people share your want. The point, however, is that people have different opinions about which action is nearer to an acoustic grand piano. Some people say Kawai, other people say Roland.


I would think most average people (like me ;-) dont have real experience with a real grandpiano and dont know exactly how it feels.

Just some rethoric questions: ;-)


From Theory an acoustic piano feels different when the damper is depressed.
Could it be true that Roland feels like a grand without having the damper depressed and Kawai feels like a grand where the damper is depressed ?
What is better and more natural? ;-)

I personally believe, because a digital has several disadvantages compared to an acoustic, it should at least be allowed to have the small advantage that it doesnt need a mechanical damper, and so it should always feel as light as an acoustic that has the damper depressed.
;-)

I have not much experience with Roland, because their action is noisy I avoided them.
But in comparison to Yamaha it should be noted, that the Kawai mechanism can reach the same repetition rate without 3rd Sensor, because the hammer can move independently from the key, proposed, that it is properly adjusted.
So far I found, the RM3 really allows for repetition without releasing the key fully. It does -so far I know- not allow repetition without intermediate damping. But who does really do that? I do not. Does classical literature request this playing technique? Had Beethoven's, Bach's or Schumann's pianos such a mechanism? I believe in most actual playing situations the difference is not audible. And if the release time is increased -eg. by pressing the pedal partially- the effect should be very much the same.

There is another point: Fast repetition, but with low volume.
That is another thing that should be possible. So far I know, Yamaha needs the 3rd sensor for this. With the kawai mechanism this /should/ be possible without 3rd sensor. Ok I would prefer to really try it rather tham making theorys about it, but the opportunities where I can really try and compare it are very rare.


So I think the practical applications for a repetition mechanism are rare on an acoustic and because a digital repeats faster by design, it would not necessarily need 3 sensors. However, I also cannot see, why it should need a repetition lever simulation like at the CA93.


Of course it would be ideal, if Kawai woul not measure the hammer speed using two sensors, but if they would measure the true hammer impact. This would give optimal repetition. However there are additional questions to solve: How would you play organ or violin or cembalo, using such a keyboard?


Peter




Posted by: wower

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/07/10 05:33 PM

Is the CA63/93's action based on the movements of the acoustic Millennium III Action? Does anyone know if Kawai was trying to mimic or copy the touch of the Millennium III Action when designing the RM3 Grand action? Seems logical the Millennium III Action was their target and that is an action I quite liked so far at the stores. Sadly CA63/93 are a bit thin on the ground here in Canada at the moment to try as a demo on the floor.
Posted by: Technocube

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/09/10 06:05 PM

Complete newbie to the digital piano world. I am used to playing a grand and need a silent digital (ie headphoned) for evening practise. Not bothered about the sound since I do have an acoustic - it's all about the action. Which models of digital pianos use an actual hammer action using a gravity return hammer? I know the Kawai CA93/63 do, as do the Yamaha AvantGrand. Are there any other makes? Do Roland do one (does the HP307 use an actual gravity return hammer?). Thanks very much.
Posted by: Andree

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/10/10 06:59 AM

Technocube, I would say that every action, available in premium digital pianos, uses gravity to return the hammer. The difference lies in the construction of these actions, here we can see that different manufacturers use different solutions. Mainly one can say that Roland and Yamaha share the same principle, a weight lifted below the key when pressing it down. KAWAI has chosen another technique, a hammer that is thrown away from the key. If you want a good action you should go for KAWAI, Yamaha and Roland have a lot to work on if you ask me.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/10/10 03:44 PM

Sometimes such blind praise actually undermines an instrument in the eyes of intelligent observers. All three have great actions and you will not find any consensus beyond that. It's fine to have a preference but to dismiss the efforts of the other two makers is rather crass.

Steve
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/10/10 05:06 PM

Well, EssBrace, let's be logical: I don't think that praise like that undermines an instrument in the eyes of intelligent observers. Otherwise they would not be intelligent, because why should an intelligent observer be influenced by a "blind praise", as you phrase it? If that would be the case they would no longer be intelligent...
Posted by: Andree

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/10/10 06:16 PM

EssBrace, if it's crass or not to give advice for a potential buyer, when he or she requests it, doesn't concern me. However I hope that I have helped Technocube in his decision, and it's not a secret that I recommend KAWAI before the other brands on the market. I had a Roland before I got the KAWAI and I have played on Yamaha's for a very long time, I would therefore say that my opinion is quite rooted.

kawaian, I agree with you, good comment
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/10/10 06:30 PM

My point is that if the instrument appeals so strongly, to the exclusion of anything else, to someone so unable to see value or quality in anything else, then the instrument has less appeal to any intelligent, well informed buyer. I would rather buy a piano that has been intelligently critiqued, where its weaker areas are identified and acknowledged, than one that has been indiscriminately praised. More specifically Andree's recommendation of it, so absolute and unquestioning, undermines the instrument in my opinion.

I don't really want to make this about Andree or the Kawai. My point is a general one and it is that any emphatic and unqualified praise about any DP is unconvincing to an intelligent observer. Because all DPs have significant flaws and to fail to recognise that does the instrument no favours.

Steve
Posted by: snazzyplayer

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/10/10 06:53 PM

That's why I was never tempted to have my user name include the name of a manufacturer.

It sort of says right up front, that the company totally owns me, whereas, by buying their product, I would only own a teensy tiny itsy bitsy piece of the company.

Kind of makes me wonder about any recommendations by such a person, who is so willingly owned by a manufacturer. wink

It's almost as bad as signatures that make religious statements.

I don't usually have any problem with over-zealous supporters...like a friend of mine used to say about digital pianos, "We all know what sound we want to hear coming out of our speakers."

It's a personal choice, but at least recognize that your own choice isn't the "only choice"...it's just "your choice."

Snazzy
Posted by: Andree

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/10/10 07:08 PM

EssBrace, with all respect I have to disagree with you and I can't understand your way of thinking.

Before I say something more I would like to highlight an important aspect. When reading your critic it seems that you believe I have written something which is "right" in relation to other opinions. However I think you have missed the last sentence in the post you are criticizing. Read it again and focus on the last three words "If you want a good action you should go for KAWAI, Yamaha and Roland have a lot to work on if you ask me".

As I said before I have played other DP:s before I fell in love with the KAWAI. If you had read my other posts about KAWAI you would also have seen another part of this with a lot of critiques given too. What you have read in this thread is just the conclusion after handling also the negative parts of KAWAI, a conclusion with the following content: KAWAI (CA93/63) is the most affordable digital piano on the market with the best quality and keyboard action available IF YOU ASK ME.

If you not agree with me you are welcome to share your love of both Roland and Yamaha.
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/11/10 03:08 AM

Interesting, Snazzy, that you're making this comment, since you're known to be a Yamaha, err, fanboy might me not quite right, but at least a very strong supporter, only that you don't have it in your name. I see nothing wrong with that. My name only states what brand of DP I own (I don't have several of them), and of course I bought it for a reason. You should also know all my other posts since you are a regular reader of this forum, so you should know that I have detected and made public a lot of flaws of the CA63, so I hope you don't accuse me of being an uncritical fan of KAWAI...
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/11/10 04:48 AM

Well, you've hit the nail on the head there...you are a CRITICAL fan of the Kawai product, which in my opinion makes you more credible. I am personally in a position at the moment (not completely by choice - long story) where I own exclusively Roland gear. To pick up Snazzy's point, I had included a signature stating what I owned (ie, all Roland) and it made me appear to the casual observer less independent and some sort of Roland freak - which I'm not. So I now have no signature. I am very well aware of the flaws in the Roland product line.

Andree, I meant no offence I just get completely turned off by such devotion to a product when we all know the product is far from perfect. In the case of Kawai it would appear they released a piano with serious issues with cracking noises and have had to play catch-up by releasing some sort of OS update. Now whilst the Kawai key action has attracted lots of praise (rightly so no doubt), it was a very amateurish thing to do to release a product so flawed. I can't get my head round why they did not pick up on the problem and it makes you wonder what else is wrong with it. I've owned a Kawai MP9000 and am not biased against the company at all.

Steve
Posted by: snazzyplayer

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/11/10 05:09 AM

Mr. Kawaian...I'm not a fanboy of Yamaha, so let's get that out of the way, right now....however, they do make the finest digital pianos at present, in my opinion, followed immediately, and sometimes neck and neck, by Roland.

I don't dislike Kawai...I even had a Kawai synth (a K-series module/rack) up until a few days ago (sold because of an upcoming move)...I play/have played all kinds of brands of pianos/synthesizers and I tend to use whatever manufacturer's product works best in a given situation, as well as what appeals to my ears and sense of touch.

Kawai make reasonably good digital pianos, and it's nice that you like the product so much, that you include it in your user name.

A company would have to give me a digital piano or compensate me in some other way before I would endorse/advertise the product by having it appear in every post I made on a public forum.

That's where we differ I suppose.

And, I do take a poster's recommendations about a product with a grain of salt when I see a company's name/and/or keyboard model number/name in their username...but that's just a personal thing with me.

Snazzy
Posted by: TADutchman

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/11/10 05:50 AM

I agree that Yamaha currently makes by far the most expensive (huge marketing overhead) and also some of the best Digital Piano's (take for instance the AvantGrand or CVP509). When taking a limited customer budget of a few thousand euro's / dollars into account, KAWAI and Roland are currently doing a much better job i.m.h.o. By the way, I have also owned Yamaha & Technics keyboard gear to my satisfaction.
Posted by: Andree

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/11/10 07:14 AM

EssBrace, on the other hand we have a lot of people on this forum only criticizing some products without mentioning something positive. Perhaps it's then good to have some people who mention also the good things to compensate for these critics?

Regarding the crackling noise I also think it is quite strange they didn't fix this before the release. However I'm also very glad to say that they actually confessed their mistake and solved the problem. In my opinion this actually increases my thoughts about KAWAI, very good customer service.
Posted by: snazzyplayer

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/11/10 09:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Andree


However I'm also very glad to say that they actually confessed their mistake and solved the problem. In my opinion this actually increases my thoughts about KAWAI, very good customer service.


No doubt that Kawai has great customer service...and, all companies, even the "big three" like Yamaha, Roland, and Korg, have introduced products at one time or another, that had "issues" that were solved by either software, or hardware upgrades and fixes.

Many times, when these companies, attempt to keep costs down and prices competitive (and to make bigger profits, no doubt}, use either third party labor for assembly (as in another country), or use parts made from another supplier, quality control can have slip-ups at the beginning of production, or even after some time.

also consider that no company wants bad publicity, and with the advent of Piano World and other great Internet forums, and, the net itself, the buyer/user/prospective buyer is very well informed about a product's performance, any bugs or glitches, and even an instrument's durability and longevity.

Bravo to Kawai for their problem solving and service, although I suspect it was as much to avoid bad publicity, as it was to appease the irate or disappointed customers.

Par for the course.

Like wise with competition between these corporations...we the customer can only benefit as each digital piano manufacturer tries to better the other with sound, features, looks, and, of course, price.

Snazzy
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/11/10 09:22 AM

Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
even the "big three" like Yamaha, Roland, and Korg


Korg is not part of the big three, in terms of sales it's Yamaha, Roland and Kawai (at least I read that several times...). I think even Casio is ahead of Korg.
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/11/10 09:24 AM

Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
Mr. Kawaian...I'm not a fanboy of Yamaha, so let's get that out of the way, right now....however, they do make the finest digital pianos at present, in my opinion, followed immediately, and sometimes neck and neck, by Roland.


That's just your personal opinion... You don't distinguish between different models, do you? What about value for money? Interesting...

"I'm not a fanboy of xyz, but they are the best..."
Posted by: snazzyplayer

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/11/10 11:30 AM

Originally Posted By: kawaian
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
even the "big three" like Yamaha, Roland, and Korg


Korg is not part of the big three, in terms of sales it's Yamaha, Roland and Kawai (at least I read that several times...). I think even Casio is ahead of Korg.


Probably my impression of the big three, is in regards to what I see being played by professionals, amatuers, and what is being used in music schools.

Most people have the impression that Casio built a keyboard, put it on sale, and then found out how it sounded.

More recently, Kawai built a digital piano, put it on sale, and then found out how it sounded.

Now, for even those who have blind devotion to a particular instrument/manufacture, the above comparison shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

The Yamaha Avant Grand N3 is regarded by many pros, amateurs, and even music teachers, as the best digital piano being produced today. The CP-1 is another winner.

Roland's V-Piano, and HP-307 are also considered exceptional instruments, and Korg's SV-1 continues to be praised highly.

The only mention I read about Kawai, is on this forum...most other keyboard related forums, rarely even acknowledge them, let alone review them.

Perhaps we can slip them in fourth place, and Casio in fifth, if it will make you Kawai fanboys happy. grin The Casio fans won't mind, as they are just happy to be included. wink

Snazzy
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/11/10 11:58 AM

I'm sorry but it's not your part to define such a list... Have you ever played one of the new CA models? I would not dare to provide a judgement without having played an instrument.

And would you please stop me calling a KAWAI fanboy. I think I made it clear I'm not. I'm just allergic against people that promote their own DP favorites without respecting others opinions. And this is something you really like to do, to satirize people that have another opinion. See your last paragraph in your last post, and countless other examples throughout this forum.

I'm sure you have a funny answer also to this post, but anyway...
Posted by: snazzyplayer

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/11/10 12:36 PM

Originally Posted By: kawaian
I'm sorry but it's not your part to define such a list... Have you ever played one of the new CA models? I would not dare to provide a judgement without having played an instrument.

And would you please stop me calling a KAWAI fanboy. I think I made it clear I'm not. I'm just allergic against people that promote their own DP favorites without respecting others opinions.


I'm afraid it is my part to define such a list...you just don't just don't have to agree with it, and I really don't care if you do or not...I'd say it is highly likely that it is accurate, and it works for me and many others.

You rarely, if ever, see a Kawai digital piano on stage...or a Casio...most pros use Yamaha, Korg, and Roland.

I'll be glad to stop calling you a fanboy...I don't like the name much either, but you gotta admit, having Kawai as part of your user name sure makes you look like a fan...sort of like those people who wear the names of sports teams on their jackets and sweatshirts...some even have player's names and numbers...you would certainly not be far off in calling such a person a fan, or at least acknowledge they are studying hard to be one. wink

Snazzy
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/11/10 12:51 PM

Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer

I'm afraid it is my part to define such a list...you just don't just don't have to agree with it, and I really don't care if you do or not...I'd say it is highly likely that it is accurate, and it works for me and many others.

You rarely, if ever, see a Kawai digital piano on stage...or a Casio...most pros use Yamaha, Korg, and Roland.


And the visibility of stage pianos (rather than also home DPs) makes them the big three?

There are many others rankings that have a completely other picture, with more rationale behind it than you (maybe you have more, but you didn't provide it to us).

Im not necessarily have the same opinion (what the heck is Classenti), but here's another ranking which at least for me seems more reasonable:

http://www.ukpianos.co.uk/digital-pianos-which-brand-should-i-buy.html

BTW Korg is on 7th rank... It has no real name in DPs, for sure in workstations (I owned the legendary Korg M1 22 years ago, and paid a fortune for it, but was very happy for many years!).

Anyway, these rankings are highly subjective, but many people agree that the "big three" are Yamaha, Roland and KAWAI.
Posted by: snazzyplayer

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/11/10 01:35 PM

I had a Korg PS3200 analog synthesizer, which I just sold, that was ahead of it's time, and it was produced in the 1978, and I've also played the M1, Wavestation, and the later T-series as well as the Triton, etc....they make great professional equipment.

They make fine arranger keyboards as well. Pianos?

I'm not so fussy on the current crop of Korg pianos...recently they started using Fatar keyboards, in place of the Yamaha's used just after the latter bailed them out, and I don't like Fatar having experienced issues with them with the Kurzweil's we had in the studio.

The Kawai has certainly come along way from the old P-series and MR-series in the 90's, although they were fine instruments, the latter having wooden keys if I remember correctly...there was a store in Newfoundland Canada that carried them, and my next trip to the Canadian maritimes will include another visit to that province, and I'll get to spend some quality time on the new ones. There are very few stores that carry them.

I just had a quick go on one at the local store...some guy had brought one in to get fixed...it had wooden keys, and I believe it was a CA model...not sure how old, but it looked a newer one....sounded and felt pretty good.

I can see why you'd like them.

Snazzy
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/11/10 05:14 PM

Well said, Snazzy!
Posted by: Technocube

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/12/10 03:19 AM

Thanks for all your help in answer to my question. I still haven't made my final choice but will do in a couple of days after weighing up budget and features (action /sound). After trying out a few instruments from all 3 manufacturers at the weekend (CLP380 CA93 and HP307) my thoughts are that, apart from the AvantGrand N3 (outside my budget), none are close to the sound/feel of a real acoustic so it seems best to go for the cheapest acceptable option for night-time practise and put the money saved toward my 'detached' house (and some earplugs for the rest of the family :-)
Posted by: Andree

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/12/10 11:36 AM

Technocube, if you feel that none of these pianos are close to an acoustic keyboard action, then I would recommend you to look into some other aspects. A major problem that has often been discussed here is the keyboard noise, created by playing. I had a Roland FP7 before and this was one of the reasons to why I sold it. Today I have a KAWAI CA63 and, without saying it's the best piano on the market, I have to say that I can't notice any keyboard noise at all, nothing disturbing anyway. You can look at this thread, which describes the problem

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...330.html#UNREAD

I can also say that this problem might seem to be very overrated, but it's not. If you have a keyboard that creates this noise you will be very tired of it after a while. In my case it resulted in a sale

Good Luck!
Posted by: TADutchman

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/12/10 03:46 PM

Technocube, as most sales guys seem unable to fully understand the technicalities of the KAWAI CA93, I doubt that the one you tested has been set-up properly (wall placement, equalizer settings, etc.).
Posted by: Pinipon

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 05/12/10 07:31 PM

Originally Posted By: AndyT

(..) The key was originally making a click noise on the return of the key. (...)


I have the same problem in one of the keys and I have a "metal" click noise when I press the sustain pedal
I have my CA63 only since 1 week.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 05/12/10 08:03 PM

Pinpon, please contact the dealer from where the instrument was purchased, requesting that these issues be fixed.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 05/12/10 08:35 PM

My CA63 was also not perfect at the beginning, but a KAWAI technician got it fixed quickly. That was in February, everything perfect since then.
Posted by: computerpro3

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 05/13/10 09:59 AM

FWIW, I'm a conservatory trained classical pianist and I just purchased a Kawai CA51 as an apartment practice instrument for times I can't get to the Steinways at school (couldn't afford the CA63). I think even the AWA Pro II action in the CA51 is much more realistic feeling than any of the Rolands that I tried. I wish it had escapement, but the real wooden keys and the sense of mass that it has allow me to control the repetition perfectly as it has a more consistent rebound feel and speed than lighter plastic keys.

The Roland action is very good and very playable; don't get me wrong. It's just not very realistic feeling in my opinion.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 05/13/10 10:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Andree
Technocube, I would say that every action, available in premium digital pianos, uses gravity to return the hammer. The difference lies in the construction of these actions, here we can see that different manufacturers use different solutions. Mainly one can say that Roland and Yamaha share the same principle, a weight lifted below the key when pressing it down. KAWAI has chosen another technique, a hammer that is thrown away from the key. If you want a good action you should go for KAWAI, Yamaha and Roland have a lot to work on if you ask me.


I believe, it doesnt matter much, if the hammer is above, behind or below the keys.
That doesnt influence the ballistic behaviour.

Once I repaired a Yamaha keyboard with GHE (or was it GHD ?) action and of course this is solely basing on mass inertia and gravity.

But there is one difference to the Kawai:
The yamaha keyboard has the hammer connected to the key with a joint. That means, hammer and key cannot move independently.
If the hammer moves up, the key goes down.

The kawai wooden keyboard is different:
The key has more mass and if you apply a slight stroke to the key, the hammer will "fly" away from the key. There no joint that connects them firmly.

This is -for me- an important difference.
Of course also the hardness or softness of the keybottom and the noise are important. I prefer the Kawai touch. Of course other might differ. It also depends on playing style and habits, if this difference is important.

I dont know, if Yamaha's GH3 works the same way as the GHE/GHD, but I believe it.
Posted by: Pinipon

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 05/13/10 01:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Pinpon, please contact the dealer from where the instrument was purchased, requesting that these issues be fixed.

Kind regards,
James
x


The dealer will come next Monday to my home to see the problem.
I will keep you informed about it.
Posted by: mucci

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 05/13/10 06:34 PM

Originally Posted By: hpeterh

But there is one difference to the Kawai:
The yamaha keyboard has the hammer connected to the key with a joint. That means, hammer and key cannot move independently.
If the hammer moves up, the key goes down.

The kawai wooden keyboard is different:
The key has more mass and if you apply a slight stroke to the key, the hammer will "fly" away from the key. There no joint that connects them firmly.

This is -for me- an important difference.
Of course also the hardness or softness of the keybottom and the noise are important. I prefer the Kawai touch. Of course other might differ. It also depends on playing style and habits, if this difference is important.


hpeterh, you are referring to an extremely important point here. This is exactly the difference which introduces a very different aaction to the keyboard compared to Roland and Yamaha. For me it's this, along with the extra long keys itself (not so much the wooden keys which is nice but not a must have), that make the difference and leads to this very realistic feeling and the expressiveness of the KAWAI keyboard that I love. There are definitely specific playing styles which I can only perform with the KAWAI keys. For example I love to just slightly touch the keys without a lot of force pressing them completely down, but then the keys can just so easily be pressed down because the hammer is already moving forward independently of the key itself. And you also realize the specific feeling when the hammer is moving back so that you again feel the resistance. I could never achieve this with a Roland or Yamaha keyboard. It greatly supports my ability to e.g. play pp with rapid repetition. It's realistic feedback.
Posted by: Gi Dy

Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 - 04/07/14 05:13 AM

Hey AndyT!

Can you post a pic where you can give the measurements?
Such as the distance of the pivot point from the key surface

Nice looking DP you got there!