Yamaha CP1 versus CP5

Posted by: Wojtek Kowalewski

Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/15/10 01:34 PM

I am looking for a stage style piano for my wife.

I've narrowed down the search to a Yamaha CP1 and CP5

My wife used to play the piano when she was younger, but gave it up. Now I think it would be nice for her to get back into playing.

My background in playing is limited. What I'm looking for is for my wife to have the sound and feel of a piano, without actually buying an acoustic model

Other than price, and the foot petals, I can't see why the price difference between the 2 models.

Can someone with experience and know how let me know what the difference is? and if going with a CP5 over a CP1 affect the sound and feel?

Thanks

Wojtek
Posted by: FogVilleLad

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/15/10 02:44 PM

With acoustic pianos, the keys are weighted so that the touch is a little heavier in the bass register. With Yamaha's DP's, this difference in touch is called "graded hammer". Neither the CP1 nor the CP5 have a graded hammer action. (I think that this is because these DP's, which are intended to be used by musicians when they are performing on stage, offer so many electric pianos.) You might want to look at the CP50, instead. That one does have a graded hammer action. Please note that it does not have speakers.

Women sometimes prefer a "home" piano - pedals built into their cabinets. You might want to ask your wife which type she would prefer. Home-style DP's do look more like the acoustic pianos that your wife played when she was learning. This style will also include speakers.





Posted by: Wojtek Kowalewski

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/15/10 04:14 PM

Thank you so much

I was not aware the CP1 and CP5 lacked the hammer motion.

I will definitely rethink the plan. In some ways this is a surprise gift for my wife, So I'm trying to keep her out of the loop for now and surrounding myself with people of expertise.
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/15/10 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Wojtek Kowalewski
In some ways this is a surprise gift for my wife, So I'm trying to keep her out of the loop for now and surrounding myself with people of expertise.

This is tricky. It would be better to find a way to still give her the gift as a surprise but let her choose the DP. That's not really a contradiction if you're inventive. Part of the pleasure of the gift can also then be the choosing. The reason is the touch and sound can be very subjective or personal. Also the looks.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/15/10 04:28 PM

Graded hammer action just means that some of the keys are even lighter than others, but all the keys are still lighter than an acoustic grand. This is advertising hype. Some folks will buy Brand A because it has graded hammers while Brand B does not.

If the choice is between the CP1 and the CP5, the CP5 gives you much more bang for the buck. After I closely looked at the differences between the two, it took me no time to make a decision.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/15/10 05:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Wojtek Kowalewski
I was not aware the CP1 and CP5 lacked the hammer motion.

They have a hammer action, it just isn't graded (heavier on the low end, lighter on the high end).

Originally Posted By: Wojtek Kowalewski
In some ways this is a surprise gift for my wife, So I'm trying to keep her out of the loop for now and surrounding myself with people of expertise.

Dude, you're scaring me. smile
Posted by: ChrisA

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/15/10 06:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Wojtek Kowalewski

I was not aware the CP1 and CP5 lacked the hammer motion.


Not true. The CP1/5 have weighted hammer key action. But all the weights are the same. Other Yamaha DP key actions have graded weights with larger weights in the bass section.

If you like the CP1/5 then take another look at the Roland RD700GX with the new SN upgrade. It's very comparable. The real difference is if you like the key action in the RD700. I think it is slightly better than Yamaha's but at this level it's just opinion as neither is "better". I'm curious how you were able to eliminate the RD700.

You really have to try each piano. When you do it's obvous the CP1/5 have hammer action keys.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/15/10 08:08 PM

Wojtek, I do not wish to discourage you from purchasing either the CP1/CP5 (I'm sure they are terrific instruments, although I have yet to play either one myself), however unless your wife is a gigging musician who is particularly fond of playing electric piano sounds, I do not believe that these models - or indeed most other stage pianos for that matter - are ideally suited to her needs.

If you are searching for a digital piano with the touch and sound of an acoustic, I would recommend one of the following 'console' instrument ranges:

- Yamaha Clavinova (CLP-3xx series)
- Kawai CA or CN series
- Roland HP series
- Casio AP series

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted by: FogVilleLad

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 04:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Wojtek Kowalewski
Thank you so much

I was not aware the CP1 and CP5 lacked the hammer motion.

They do have weighted actions, but the weights are not "graded". Other makes also have graded hammer actions, but they use different names for them.

Originally Posted By: Wojtek Kowalewski
I will definitely rethink the plan. In some ways this is a surprise gift for my wife, So I'm trying to keep her out of the loop for now and surrounding myself with people of expertise.
On the acoustic forum, we'd probably suggest just buying her a trinket in the shape of a piano. Then, when she unwraps it, tell her it's just a symbol for the piano that you want to buy her - after she decides which one she wants. Then you two can enjoy auditioning pianos together.

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
I would recommend one of the following 'console' instrument ranges:

- Yamaha Clavinova (CLP-3xx series)
- Kawai CA or CN series
- Roland HP series
- Casio AP series

Wojtek, "Console" is another name for "home".

I think that Casio still gets their actions from Fatar. In the past, Fatar actions did not have a good reputation for either durability or quality control. If you can afford a Yamaha, Roland, or Kawai, IMO they're a better gift.



Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 04:54 AM

Originally Posted By: FogVilleLad
On the acoustic forum, we'd probably suggest just buying her a trinket in the shape of a piano. Then, when she unwraps it, tell her it's just a symbol for the piano that you want to buy her - after she decides which one she wants. Then you two can enjoy auditioning pianos together.


Spoken like a true romantic - that's a lovely suggestion!

Originally Posted By: FogVilleLad
I think that Casio still gets their actions from Fatar.


Really? This is the first time I have heard such an assumption. However many visitors to this forum also believe that Korg utilise Fatar keyboard actions, despite their Japanese website stating that they are in fact built at a facility in Kyoto.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 06:50 AM

James, I too have seen specific reference to the Korg actions being made in Japan on Korg's slightly higher range pianos...maybe they are Fatar actions delivered to Japan in component form and assembled there...but I somehow doubt that. What I do notice however on the SV I saw and another Korg piano were uneven gaps between the keys...really created a negative impression.

I remember my Korg SG-Pro-X stage piano had a decent action but it was a Yamaha AE (Action Effect)...weighted, non-graded but very pleasant as I recall.

Anyway, OP said he was looking for a "stage style piano" for his wife. The Yamaha CP series are good looking instruments, as is the Kawai MP. The Roland FP-7 is a decent looking bit of kit in my opinion too. As others have said the non-graded action might be the deal-breaker on the CP-1 or 5.

Cheers,

Steve
Posted by: Wojtek Kowalewski

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 08:12 AM

Thank you all for your help.

It will make the decision a lot more comfortable knowing experienced people are here helping me out.

I think it would be best for her to test the pianos out, without her knowing its for her. I think I will ask a friend of mine to pretend he's looking for a piano and have my wife help him decide which one to get. I've done many surprises for my wife in the past, but this one is the trickiest.

I will keep you all updated.

Wojtek
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 08:18 AM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
OP said he was looking for a "stage style piano" for his wife.


My apologies, I somehow managed to completely overlook that point.

In that case I would recommend the following (in no particular order):

- Roland RD-700GX or RD-300
- Kawai MP5 or MP8
- Yamaha CP33, CP50, or CP300

Alternatively, if the OP does not believe the stage functionality (i.e. ability to serve as a MIDI master keyboard, layering sounds together with zones etc.) of the above instruments is truly necessary, I would suggest the following portable models:

- Yamaha P150
- Kawai ES6
- Roland FP7

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 08:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Wojtek Kowalewski


I think it would be best for her to test the pianos out, without her knowing its for her. I think I will ask a friend of mine to pretend he's looking for a piano and have my wife help him decide which one to get. I've done many surprises for my wife in the past, but this one is the trickiest.


That's so cool! Best of luck!

Lawrence
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 09:46 AM

+1

Great idea!

James
x
Posted by: FogVilleLad

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 02:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Wojtek Kowalewski
I think it would be best for her to test the pianos out, without her knowing its for her. I think I will ask a friend of mine to pretend he's looking for a piano and have my wife help him decide which one to get. I've done many surprises for my wife in the past, but this one is the trickiest.
Lovely idea.

When your wife is auditioning DP's, it'd be a good idea to make sure that all settings are the factory default settings. People sometimes fiddle with these settings - touch settings, for example - but don't reset them to the default. You might want to ask, or have your friend ask, the reps how to reset everything to their defaults.

Also, it can be tricky to separate touch from tone. For example a loud acoustic piano can seem to have light touch. With DP's you can focus on touch by "playing" the keys with the power off.

Please pay attention to the DP's that your wife seems to want to audition. Console/home style DP's usually have a higher WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor).

We love piano search stories.



Posted by: 27Jan

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 02:37 PM

As one who has shopped and purchased a digital piano recently, I can attest to the fact that a, the Yamaha CP1 and CP 5 do not have a graded hammer action and b, It is of very little consequence that they don't. Having played and owned a variety of small grand pianos I've noticed that some have actions that (although heavier at the low end) can seem easier to play in the lower registers. This tends to negate the positive functionality of a graded action. Additionally many acoustic grands even those in environmentally friendly places have actions that can be somewhat inconsistent regarding touch. A side from the fact that it does, I don't believe any pianist or piano player really notices that the higher you go up on the keyboard the lighter it gets and the lower you go the heavier it gets. After playing and comparing the Roland Rd 700 Gx and Yamaha Cp 5, I purchased the Yamaha. Both are very good for their intended purpose. However, the CP 5 offers the player a greater level of expressive capability and the action (a negative for some) is very consistent. Just as no two acoustic pianos have the same feel, no digital plays/feels like an acoustic piano. The CP 5 imho offers a much better compromise.

Mason Hamlin A
Yamaha CP 5
Posted by: Jeff Clef

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 03:07 PM

"I think it would be best for her to test the pianos out, without her knowing its for her. I think I will ask a friend of mine to pretend he's looking for a piano and have my wife help him decide which one to get. I've done many surprises for my wife in the past, but this one is the trickiest."

You are a bold man, Wojtek. A great surprise for her--- but since a piano is so personal, maybe you should reveal the real purpose to her right at the end of the shopping trip. She might pick a piano she thinks is right for the friend, but not her.

You might try something like... when she makes a choice for the 'friend,' take from your pocket one of those stick-on gift bows and put it on the piano, and give her the greeting card (Happy Birthday, or whatever it is), with your congratulations and a personal message. And a hug and kiss.

Even then, she may want to think it over some more before she makes a final choice. You know, looking up specs on the websites, etc. But she'll be delighted, for sure.

Champagne at home, of course.
Posted by: ChrisA

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 03:27 PM

Originally Posted By: FogVilleLad
..
Console/home style DP's usually have a higher WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor).



That is true. One guy who posted here a while said the only feature his wife cared about was that the piano absolutely had to have a sliding key cover.

Some people like the home type pianos because they resemble a more traditional looking acoustic piano but others hate them because "resemble" means "fake" and they don't like the fake wood plastic laminate finish. But some are very well done and others look like cheap Ikea furniture. There is also a grey area between the home and stage piano. I think My Yamaha P155 (when bolted onto the LP140 stand) falls into this grey zone. I'd call my P155 a "portable home practice piano"

The best thing you could do is make the rounds of the local music stores, headphones in hand and try out some of these pianos.

Spend time listining to the pianos, your ear will continue to improve the more you listen. All of them sound god at first but after some weeks you will learn to hear the differences between Kawai and Roland and the others, In fact I'd say if you can't describe the difference in sound, you are not yet ready to buy.
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 06:03 PM

Originally Posted By: 27Jan
As one who has shopped and purchased a digital piano recently, I can attest to the fact that a, the Yamaha CP1 and CP 5 do not have a graded hammer action and b, It is of very little consequence that they don't.


I absolutely disagree with this. If you are wanting to do AP work, the graded action does in fact make a significant difference.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 06:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: 27Jan
As one who has shopped and purchased a digital piano recently, I can attest to the fact that a, the Yamaha CP1 and CP 5 do not have a graded hammer action and b, It is of very little consequence that they don't.


I absolutely disagree with this. If you are wanting to do AP work, the graded action does in fact make a significant difference.


If you want to really be serious about playing an acoustic piano action, then get an acoustic piano; graded hammers or not, all digital pianos have actions that are much lighter than any acoustic grand piano action.

A graded hammer action just means than some of the keys are even lighter than others.

Posted by: snazzyplayer

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 06:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne


all digital pianos have actions that are much lighter than any acoustic grand piano action.




There you go again, Dave, making sweeping statements.

"All" digital piano actions are not lighter than "any" acoustic grand actions.

I have played several digitals that had heavier actions than grand pianos.

Snazzy
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 07:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne

If you want to really be serious about playing an acoustic piano action, then get an acoustic piano; graded hammers or not, all digital pianos have actions that are much lighter than any acoustic grand piano action.


You might say "many" but it's not valid to say "all".

I recently played a grand where the action was MUCH lighter than my RD-700GX, for example. I'll note the builder of the piano next time I'm at the store.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne


all digital pianos have actions that are much lighter than any acoustic grand piano action.




There you go again, Dave, making sweeping statements.

"All" digital piano actions are not lighter than "any" acoustic grand actions.

I have played several digitals that had heavier actions than grand pianos.

Snazzy


I have never played a digital piano that made me sweat. I have played many acoustic grands that made me work for my money.

You tell me which digital pianos were heavy and perhaps someone here with more time on their hands can apply weights to the keys to see just what is needed to depress that heavy digital key.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 07:22 PM

The perceived 'weight' of both digital and acoustic piano keyboard actions can vary from brand to brand, and sometimes across series' of models within the same brand.

Furthermore, acoustic piano keyboard actions (and even some digital piano keyboard actions) can be regulated to adjust the perceived 'weight' of the key stroke to feel lighter or heavier depending on the player's preference.

Finally, keyboard 'weight' can be measured in both static and dynamic terms - it is arguably too simplistic to simply state that keyboard A is heavier than keyboard B.

By the way, how did this thread about a chap wishing to buy a piano for the love of his life descend into yet another argument about the merits of acoustic vs digital keyboard actions?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: 27Jan
As one who has shopped and purchased a digital piano recently, I can attest to the fact that a, the Yamaha CP1 and CP 5 do not have a graded hammer action and b, It is of very little consequence that they don't.


I absolutely disagree with this. If you are wanting to do AP work, the graded action does in fact make a significant difference.


By the way, how did this thread about a chap wishing to buy a piano for the love of his life descend into yet another argument about the merits of acoustic vs digital keyboard actions?

See above ... smile
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 07:32 PM

Yes, that was a somewhat rhetorical question...

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: snazzyplayer

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 10:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne



I have never played a digital piano that made me sweat. I have played many acoustic grands that made me work for my money.



That's more of an indication your antiperspirant is working. wink

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne


I have played many acoustic grands that made me work for my money.




Must have just been your poor luck to run into such a string of poorly maintained or improperly regulated instruments. wink

Snazzy
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 11:04 PM

Good grief. This is the digital piano forum, is it not? And digital pianos include, well, ACOUSTIC PIANO sounds, last time I checked.

By AP I meant Acoustic Piano on the CP1 / CP5. I don't agree that the lack of graded action on the CP1 / CP5 is not important. It apparently is fine for electric pianos. I wasn't referring to the action on acoustic pianos, but the acoustic piano patches on the CP1 / CP5. I thought that this thread was about the CP1 / CP5 and so that was what I was commenting on. I bought the CP1 for only AP use, and ended up returning it. I do not recommend the action in it. It is lacking for several reasons, ONE of which is the lack of graded, which I will repeat IS INDEED very important.

Hopefully that at least makes my position clear - especially to James and Dave!
Posted by: snazzyplayer

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/16/10 11:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Yes, that was a somewhat rhetorical question...

Cheers,
James
x


Yes it was James, and it was the first time I've ever seen you ask one. wink

Snazzy
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/17/10 04:00 AM

Fully accept we have gone off topic...but need to have my say!

What Dave is saying is absolute rubbish. ALL DPs have lighter actions than ALL APs...just nonsense. As Snazzy says, it's just a sweeping statement, a generalisation. For what it's worth I did use some small kitchen scale weights a while ago. The heavier bass notes on a Clavinova with GH3 action were something in the region of 80g. What surprised me is that the keys on my V-Piano at the time were maybe 60g ish. This difference was reflected across the keyboard. However, I perceived the V-Piano to have a slightly weightier action so the precise weight alone does not tell the whole story.

Steve
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/17/10 04:37 AM

Interesting, I look at the profiles of the good folks here and can learn no substantive information about their actual playing ability or history.

Nonsense I say, just nonsense. smile
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/17/10 04:59 AM

Quote:
My background in playing is limited. What I'm looking for is for my wife to have the sound and feel of a piano, without actually buying an acoustic model.


Have you ruled out the Yamaha AvantGrand N2? Your wife would have a real grand piano action in a very nice upright piano case. The added advantage is the grand piano action, since no digital keyboard action will replace the feel of a real acoustic grand piano action - graded hammers or not. wink


Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/17/10 06:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne


Have you ruled out the Yamaha AvantGrand N2? Your wife would have a real grand piano action in a very nice upright piano case. The added advantage is the grand piano action, since no digital keyboard action will replace the feel of a real acoustic grand piano action - graded hammers or not. wink




Nice photo, but realize that you'll likely need to have the lid raised to get the best sound, which certainly impacts the aesthetics. The photo at the official website (avant-grand.com) shows the N2 with the lid raised.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/17/10 06:36 AM

Quote:
Nice photo, but realize that you'll likely need to have the lid raised to get the best sound, which certainly impacts the aesthetics. The photo at the official website (avant-grand.com) shows the N2 with the lid raised.


Sigh, yes, much like an acoustic piano, the lid can be opened for a more richer sound.
Posted by: snazzyplayer

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/17/10 08:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music



Nice photo, but realize that you'll likely need to have the lid raised to get the best sound, which certainly impacts the aesthetics. The photo at the official website (avant-grand.com) shows the N2 with the lid raised.


Actually, Lawrence, I think the Avant Grand N2 is pretty homely with the lid raised, or closed.

It's like my my old mother-in-law...unbalanced. wink

Leaving the lid closed also negatively affects the sound...it is meant to be left open.

A no-win situation, no matter how you look at it.

Of course, this is purely my own opinion, my friend.

Snazzy
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/17/10 08:24 AM

Quote:
Leaving the lid closed also negatively affects the sound...it is meant to be left open.


So, you've played it and can report back back on the sound with the lid open and closed?
Posted by: snazzyplayer

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/17/10 08:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Quote:
Leaving the lid closed also negatively affects the sound...it is meant to be left open.


So, you've played it and can report back back on the sound with the lid open and closed?


(Sigh)What a silly question, Dave. smirk

Of course I have played it...how else would I know?

I've also owned an N3 for several months, which I have since sold.

I'm not quite sure I'd hang my hat on any opinions you might have about the N2, Dave; considering your last blanket statement that all digital pianos have a lighter action than any acoustic grand pianos, I'm now inclined to view your reviews with the proverbial grain of salt.

Snazzy
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/17/10 09:07 AM

I'm now inclined to view your reviews with the proverbial grain of salt.

Most folks from ... Earth might agree with you. laugh
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/17/10 09:15 AM

It's strange that the Yamaha designers seemed to go out of their way to make the N3 look like a typical baby grand, whereas with the N2 they did not opt to make it look like a typical upright (or vertical). Trying for a so-called modern look, I guess. I would use another term to describe the look!

As Chef Ramsay would say "disappointing".
Posted by: Wojtek Kowalewski

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/17/10 10:03 AM

Thanks a lot for all your help.

I think you are all right that it might be a good idea to let her know before a final purchase decision is made.

I actually did not even think of bringing headphones with me, always relying on pianos to be plugged into amps. That was a good idea that I would never come up with (that's why I ask all the silly questions.)

IKEA, if it does look like Ikea furniture, it would mean it would match 80% of my furniture, which happens to be Ikea.


And to clarify the decision to go electric vs acoustic:

Size (small house)
Portability (my wife's family is very musical, sometimes they get together and it turns into a singing event, something I can only appreciate but not necessarily take part in smile
Price, I think a really good quality acoustic is more expensive than really good electric.

My wife likes to play on piano/keyboards every time we visit someone who has one. The only thing she always commented on was the plastic hollow feel of an inexpensive keyboard. So I am thinking that as long as that feel is not there and it feel more like a piano (not necessarily exact), she will enjoy it.

My wife's is budget savvy, price is 70% of the decision for her. Me on the other hand, only the best will do for her. So most of the time we have to find a middle ground.

Wojtek
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/17/10 10:04 AM

I expect the N1 will be more reminiscent of an upright design.

(purely conjecture, of course...)

James
x
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/17/10 10:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
I expect the N1 will be more reminiscent of an upright design.

(purely conjecture, of course...)

James
x


Maybe wishfull thinking on my part, but I hope you're right.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/17/10 11:10 AM

Well, either that or a semi-portable stage piano with a real acoustic GP action - ideal for Pianoteq/Ivory fans.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: Dave Ferris

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/18/10 02:41 AM


cool
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/18/10 03:41 AM

Interesting point but there should be no need to mess around with the pre-amp stuff or indeed any of the other EP orientated parameters to get an AP patch to sound right. Other than AP related things like resonance settings, hammer hardness etc the APs should sound best when the other stuff is completely bypassed...there's got to be something wrong with the APs to start with if they don't in my opinion.

Steve
Posted by: dewster

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/18/10 09:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Without doing extensive editing, the CP5 sounded far inferior to the one on the CP-1. Maybe it's something to do with the extra preamp stage in the CP-1. Also If you look at the block comparison chart on the Yamaha CP page, it shows the CP-1 has having 2 S6 samples while the CP5 only one.

As I understand it, the CP-1 has two S6 patches, but only one S6 sample set. The difference between the patches is 2 or 3 band EQ *yawn*.

If the S6 sample set on the CP-5 is truly inferior then Yamaha is playing with fire.
Posted by: Dave Ferris

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 06/18/10 11:04 AM

cool
Posted by: weyered

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 07/15/10 04:01 PM

After all this talk about how heavy or light the action is (graded vs not graded, etc) I think EssBrace has the answer. He talks about finding that using simple kitchen weights that one DP needs 80g to press a key, and another takes 60g. Has anyone actually taken weights and tested say C-2-octaves-below-middle-C, middle C, and C-2-octaves-above-middle-C, and do this on some huge accoustic grands, and on several DPs?? Seems like at that point a reader could say "Oh - The CP-1 has a way lighter touch than the Roland RD-700SX", or "The CP-50 has a lot more weighting below middle C than the Calvinova", or even make some rash generalization like "All DPs have lighter actions than all accoustic pianos" (sorry, couldn't resist opening that can of worms again...)
Posted by: Auggiedoggy

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 07/15/10 05:10 PM

I don't see any advantage of going with the CP-33 when you have the CP-50, which has a few extra pianos plus improved polyphony of 128 compared to 64 for the CP-33. They weigh about the same but I believe his wife will be playing it at home. Obviously the CP-33 will be cheaper being an older model (2006). The CP-300, a real tank, has a lot of sounds I would never use but his wife might have other requirements. It does have a pair of nice speakers on board which most stage pianos do not have.
Posted by: abomic

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/17/10 11:23 AM

Compilations Tuto - Yamaha CP5 almost everything .... but in French
http://www.audiokeys.net/forum/showthread.php?23766-CP5-Yamaha-Tout-savoir-Compil-de-liens-utiles

Summary of links:
- Videos quality
- Testing and analysis comparisons
- High resolution photos
- Fly-Transport Case
- Tips and Tricks Programming
- Survey for transmission to Yamaha for improvement
- Establishment of a community of users CP5
- Editing Software Mac / PC for editing / Swap, copy, bank performance

Compilations Tuto - Yamaha CP5 almost everything...
Posted by: Brooks Reid

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/18/10 06:53 PM

I purchased a Yamaha CP50 and now I have the CP5. For me the extra money was well worth it. The sound of the Grand Piano is the same but the CP50 does not have all the other sounds the CP5 has. The wooden keys of the CP5 are a joy to play and really connect with the sounds. The ability to split plus layer with 4 PARTS is a must for me and my live gig.
Posted by: Aidan

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/19/10 03:28 AM

I made a fairly rough and ready short demo of CP5 sounds yesterday which I already posted on the Keyboard magazine forum but may prove helpful to people here.

The voices in the order you hear them are:

CF Grand
S6 Grand
RockBright
S6 Calm
CF+DX EP
71Rd Trem
71Rd Driven
73Rd Phaser

Apologies for the slight occasional distortion - the inputs on my audio interface were just set a little too hot, I think.

Here's the audio

Like others here, I was very sceptical of the CP1 and 5 when I heard Yamaha had gone with an ungraded action. But the moment I played the board, I forgot all about those qualms. The only negative thing I can find to say so far about my CP5 is that the interface is pretty inpenetrable to start with.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/19/10 04:22 AM

I don't know if I reported this issue here, but I've found yet another issue with the CP5.

If you create a Performance (User Bank) that uses a PreDrum (built in backing tracks) in AutoSync mode, the backing track starts playing when you access that Performance but you don't hear it. You have to fractionally move the Track volume control first. This is not an issue in the PreSet bank, just the User (and I'm assuming the EXT bank as well).
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/19/10 08:02 AM

Probably just a bug that slipped past the development team.

Report it to Yamaha directly and wait for them to fix it with a software update.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/19/10 08:05 AM

Aiden, thanks for uploading. Very nice playing. I enjoyed the demos very much. I like the APs. They sound very very clean. Not very much character but as I expect from Yamaha, very clear and balanced throughout the range. It might be the reverb or whatever that is just a bit too pristine but there's a sort of coldness to it all to my ears. This is an observation, not meant to be criticism at all. It certainly sounds like the action is allowing you to control lower velocities very well...I take it there's no correction going on?

The CF/DX sound is horrific...that sleazy, cheesy late 80s/90s sound. I half expected a cringe-worthy sax solo to break out during that one. Just my opinion!

The Rhodes sound nice...cleaner and meatier than my RD-700GX...I find the SN EPs a let-down on the RD (especially the Rhodes patches, that all sound so samey to me with I think a limited dynamic range) but I can't be bothered to endlessly tweak so they can probably give much more than I ever hear.

As has been said many times, the CP5 is clearly the nicest point in the new range. It'll be interesting to assess it against the upcoming new Kawai.

Cheers,

Steve
Posted by: dewster

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/19/10 09:00 AM

Yes, thank you Aiden, you play very well!

The CFIII mids sound slightly synthetic and decay somewhat too quickly - the DP variant I suppose of Woody Allen's joke "The food here is terrible. And such small portions." Though the lower and higher notes sound pretty good in your demo.
Posted by: Aidan

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/19/10 09:09 AM

Cheers Steve. I think you could probably say that the RD700GX (which I also have - now due to stay in the studio, set up) is more characterful than the Yamaha, but I do think the CP5 has a slightly more consistent sound. Plus the Rhodes blow away the RD's. Wurli, it's a draw - neither as good as the Korg SV-1 or Nords.

However, I think it's a win overall for the Roland on any extra sounds, i.e. non-piano. The blurb for the CP range on the Yamaha site kind of implies that the extra sounds are equivalent of those in the Motif XS. As a Motif XS rack owner, I can tell you they're very definitely not. The Roland's clavs have more cut and variety. It also has the more intuitive interface.

Dave, I've now set up several performances in my user banks which use key-on to start the drums and I'm not experiencing the problem you've come across. Maybe an OS fix now being shipped with newer models which you need to grab from somewhere?
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/19/10 12:46 PM

Aidan, since you did not have the same issue as I regarding the AutoSync \ PreDrum starting in the User Bank, I went back and looked at all the parameters in the Song setting.

I overlooked something. It does in fact work as it should.

I've also sent Yamaha a message about this apologizing for taking up their time with a non existent issue.
Posted by: NikkiPiano

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/19/10 05:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Aidan

CF Grand


Nice playing. I'm wracking my brain trying to name the tune played with the CF Grand. I think it's a Celtic or Scottish folk song?
Posted by: Aidan

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/19/10 05:15 PM

Wild Theme from the film Local Hero by Mark Knopfler smile
Posted by: NikkiPiano

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/19/10 05:51 PM

Thanks a million. I've probably listened to this hundreds of times without realising what it was. I love the piano rendition of it.
Posted by: Brooks Reid

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/19/10 06:50 PM

Purchased a Gator GK 88 soft case for my CP5 today. It fits better than I expected. The specs for the GL 88 seemed like it would be too large to fit snugly but it does. In addition it has nice big velcro straps that secure the keyboard.

Bought a Yamaha FC7 Expression pedal to control the layered sound on top of piano and it works perfectly.

Finally found out how to EQ individual instruments. Go to Mod Effects and then EQ 501. Scroll right and you have all the parameters including "Q" for 5 band parametric.

I have both the CP 500 and CP5 here in my studio now making a decision which I am going to keep. I did not want to spend the extra cash on the CP5 but it's winning me over.
Posted by: Aidan

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/20/10 05:28 AM

The thing I like about the CP5 is that although it's the same weight as my RD700GX, it feels easier to haul around because the squarer nature of the case affords easier grip. Also, the RD's weight seems excessively distributed towards the back of the instrument, whereas the CP5's feels more evenly distributed.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/20/10 05:59 AM

It's the length of the RD I don't like too much due to the placement of that lame combined pitch-bend/mod control. The proportions of the thing are slightly wrong due to the excessive length, otherwise I find the RD a decent looking thing...I like the wedge profile....it's one stage piano where the term "slab" is not only unpleasant but inaccurate!

Steve
Posted by: Peakly

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/21/10 02:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Aidan
I made a fairly rough and ready short demo of CP5 sounds yesterday which I already posted on the Keyboard magazine forum but may prove helpful to people here.


Nice demo.

The APs sound like run of the mill digital piano sounds. To me, digital pianos never sound good recorded alone. They're so finite, so boxed in, like sound inside of a fence or in a cage. A real piano has an endlessness to the sound that is hard to describe, but makes all the difference. A digital piano, like the ones in this demo, are fine for recording or playing live with a band. By themselves, they sound small to me.

I remember those "Rhodes" sounds from when I head a CP5 here for three weeks. Whatever is a word that comes to mind.

Hey Aidan, ever since you made that joke about the CP33 EP sounding like doorbells, I feel like running to see who's at the door every time I hear it! Maybe they actually sampled a doorbell for the EP sound. At least it's a pretty nice doorbell - I wouldn't mind having one by my front door!

Mychal
Posted by: Aidan

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/21/10 06:54 AM

Mychal, I don't think there's any pianist who would take a DP over an acoustic grand if given the choice. However, most of us are limited by space and budget, so I'm happy with the CP5. As I said in a previous post, the CP5 may sound a little bland compared with the Roland, for example, but on my first gig with it yesterday, it sounded really great and very even in a live setting.
Posted by: Peakly

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/21/10 11:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Aidan
Mychal, I don't think there's any pianist who would take a DP over an acoustic grand if given the choice.


I'm probably more sensitive to it right now, because I just finished recording an album using a digital piano instead of an acoustic. There were technical reasons why I had to do it, and the DP I used did a great job fitting in with the rest of the band. But during mixing I've noticed I'm missing that "infinite" impossible to describe quality that a good acoustic brings to the table. The depth and width and, well, all the nice things that you already know about.

You have a very nice pianistic touch on your recordings, and you play really well. But even with your sensitive touch, it can't bridge that gap. A DP just has a more limited sound, which in comparison to a well recorded acoustic sounds constrained to me.


Quote:
on my first gig with it yesterday, it sounded really great and very even in a live setting.


Cool, and that's the bottom line, finding a keyboard that you can count on to play well, sounds good, and is reliable. I'm glad it's working out for you!

Mychal
Posted by: Dave Ferris

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/22/10 12:13 AM

.
Posted by: Brooks Reid

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 08/22/10 02:58 PM

I used my Yamaha CP5 on the gig for the first time last night. Very pleased and although I really wanted to fault it so I could return it, I'm having a hard time finding a reason to take it back. The only thing I really miss is the ability to have a MIDI drum set that reads STANDARD MIDI files. The Yamaha tech told me this is not possible.
Has anyone been able to load a STANDARD MIDI drum song into the CP5/50?

Also now that I have found the INTERNAL MOD EF (not the master EQ knobs on top right) 5 band parametric EQ for the piano (or any sound) I have been able to really tweek the piano for my live gig. I can cut all the low mid mud and bring up the sparkle on the high to cut though the mix.

The Hammond sounds are really nice. In the ROTARY MOD EF you have a lot of controls for the Leslie settings but I have not got into it yet. I did notice that when you change speeds, it speeds up or slows down correctly.
You can control speed of the horn/rotor, mix, mic angle, etc.
Has anyone else played with the Leslie settings? Have you been able to switch the speed on and off with foot pedal?
Posted by: pgrcheckit

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 09/17/10 01:40 PM

I did a side by side comparison of the Yamaha CP1 and the CP5. Played both instruments today at the shop Feedback Rotterdam in the Netherlands.

About the key action

The graded hammer action is a system that Yamaha used up till now for some of their stage piano's, the CP50 still has this graded hammer system system. The CP1 and CP5 are equipped with new improved key action, called "true wood", real wooden keys covered with synthetic ivory top layer. In my opinion the action of these true wood keys is indeed better than the "old" graded hammer action, although the way action feels on a keyboard is also influenced on the the way the sound reacts to your touch.

Sound quality

If you play both instrumentss, you cannot come to another conclusion than that the CP1 totally outclasses the CP5. The CP1 truely is the flagship of the series. I was actually a bit disappointed by the sound quality of the CP5, it can not even compeed with my own Yamaha P-250 (the flagship from it's own era).
The CP1 sounds are open, with a lot of presence which I'm sure will cut through your band mix with ease, the e-piano's are very realistic, the CP5 really cannot stand in the shadow of it's big brother. Reading the specs on the internet you would think that the CP5 has some of the sounds of the CP1, but listening to it, I conclude that this is not the case. The prize difference is there for a reason.
If you are looking for a Yamaha stage piano in the prize range of the CP5, you are adviced to also look at the CP300.
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 09/18/10 12:21 PM

CP1 to CP5 isn't much of a issue. The CP1 only has one more modulation block which can be tweaked. The CP5 has many of the same patches as the CP1 and the cut through just as well.
I happen to have them both and really only notice the difference on certain EP patches.
Posted by: octurn

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 09/18/10 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: pgrcheckit
I did a side by side comparison of the Yamaha CP1 and the CP5. Played both instruments today at the shop Feedback Rotterdam in the Netherlands.


Sound quality

If you play both instrumentss, you cannot come to another conclusion than that the CP1 totally outclasses the CP5. The CP1 truely is the flagship of the series. I was actually a bit disappointed by the sound quality of the CP5, it can not even compeed with my own Yamaha P-250 (the flagship from it's own era).
The CP1 sounds are open, with a lot of presence which I'm sure will cut through your band mix with ease, the e-piano's are very realistic, the CP5 really cannot stand in the shadow of it's big brother. Reading the specs on the internet you would think that the CP5 has some of the sounds of the CP1, but listening to it, I conclude that this is not the case. The prize difference is there for a reason.
If you are looking for a Yamaha stage piano in the prize range of the CP5, you are adviced to also look at the CP300.


And you used the same headphone? Or were sure the same speakers were connected to both DP's?

And you were sure nobody had been messing with any of the settings of the models? By changing some of the many parameters you can really mess up the original sound.
When I tried the CP5 I noticed many weird settings on the showroom model, but when I asked the salesman, they couldn't help me out, since they didn't know how anything was done. Apparently some customers had been pressing buttons randomly...
Once I found out how to do a factory reset I was able to test the CP5 more thoroughly.

After all, I didn't hear the difference between CP1 and CP5 like you did...
Posted by: dewster

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 09/18/10 08:16 PM

octurn, you raise valid points.

And no dig at you, but this kind of squabbling is a direct product of only trusting one's ears - it's purely subjective. A CP5 DPBSD MP3 would likely settle this once and for all. I for one am very interested as to whether there are fundamental differences between the CP1/5/50 basic CF sample sets.
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 09/18/10 09:00 PM

Originally Posted By: octurn

When I tried the CP5 I noticed many weird settings on the showroom model, but when I asked the salesman, they couldn't help me out, since they didn't know how anything was done. Apparently some customers had been pressing buttons randomly...
Once I found out how to do a factory reset I was able to test the CP5 more thoroughly.



I NEVER understand why store personnel never seem to know even basic things about the gear they are selling - like a factory reset.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 09/18/10 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
I NEVER understand why store personnel never seem to know even basic things about the gear they are selling - like a factory reset.

Here in the US it's basically a minimum wage job. And with zero pay there are rightly zero expectations.
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 09/19/10 12:36 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster
A CP5 DPBSD MP3 would likely settle this once and for all.


There is a good reason why you don't have one too, its a DAW only job. The CP5 seems to have very strange issues playing SMF's.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 09/19/10 10:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
The CP5 seems to have very strange issues playing SMF's.

Dr, could you elaborate? I'm curious as to what these issues are.
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 09/19/10 12:08 PM

Well you do a SMF for it in your DAW take care to voice it correctly...put it on a USB stick ... tell it to play it and ....wrong voice...it will play it fine when connected directly. I don't know its a odd one and I couldn't be bothered fu<king around with it. Can't be the file because it plays when connected.
Posted by: octurn

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 09/20/10 04:52 AM

I'm by no means an expert, but I discovered if playing a loaded MIDI file, the CP5 doesn't use a voice, but uses the active preset. So if your preset is a split bass + layered piano+strings he will by default use that setup for playing the MIDI file.

Basically, you can't just select a voice in a CP5, you have to select presets and then assign voices in to the different parts in these presets.

At least that's how I think it works.

But there has to be a way around this for playing a MIDI file, or not?
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 09/20/10 05:13 AM

I don't know I tried and gave up I'm sure there is a way around it but I couldn't be bothered screwing around with it.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 09/20/10 06:18 AM

Originally Posted By: octurn
I'm by no means an expert, but I discovered if playing a loaded MIDI file, the CP5 doesn't use a voice, but uses the active preset. So if your preset is a split bass + layered piano+strings he will by default use that setup for playing the MIDI file.

Basically, you can't just select a voice in a CP5, you have to select presets and then assign voices in to the different parts in these presets.

At least that's how I think it works.

But there has to be a way around this for playing a MIDI file, or not?


Though I haven't done it, I would suspect you create a preset, a User Preset or USB Preset, using that midi file as the 'voice' for that preset.
Posted by: rha

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 09/21/10 11:46 AM

Thanks for all the good info on this series from Yamaha. I can't seem to figure out if the CP50 allows for layering at least two sounds/voices. I'd prefer to get the CP50 due to weight considerations but if it doesn't have the ability to layer, that would be a deal killer.

Anyone know?
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 09/21/10 03:14 PM

Originally Posted By: rha
Thanks for all the good info on this series from Yamaha. I can't seem to figure out if the CP50 allows for layering at least two sounds/voices. I'd prefer to get the CP50 due to weight considerations but if it doesn't have the ability to layer, that would be a deal killer.

Anyone know?



From the CP5\CP50 owner's manual (easily found by Googling 'yamaha cp5 manual', click on first hit, and then clicking on Resources) ...

page 7: Principal Features of the CP5 & CP50

Extremely simple overlaying and division of keyboard zones

Using your stage piano’s layering and splitting functions, you can easily layer the various parts that make up each
Performance or assign them to specific left-hand and right-hand zones.
Posted by: Ovidiu M

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 10/27/10 01:13 PM

Hello guys! I've read the entire topic and so far i fail to understand if CP1 really worth ~1700 euro over CP5. I dont know about the topic initiator, but what i'm particulary interested in is that if CP1's piano samples are superior to those in CP5. Because if they are identical and given also the identical keyboards, than for me the almost double price tag is just for marketing purposes of the flagship model...
So how about those piano samples?
Posted by: Hideki Matsui

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 10/27/10 02:06 PM

I have the CP1 and can tell you that the acoustic piano sounds seem identical to the CP5 to my ears. The EPs are a completely different story and well worth the additional price tag if you use EPs. If APs are your primary concern, I would say not worth the price difference.

Originally Posted By: Ovidiu M
Hello guys! I've read the entire topic and so far i fail to understand if CP1 really worth ~1700 euro over CP5. I dont know about the topic initiator, but what i'm particulary interested in is that if CP1's piano samples are superior to those in CP5. Because if they are identical and given also the identical keyboards, than for me the almost double price tag is just for marketing purposes of the flagship model...
So how about those piano samples?
Posted by: Hideki Matsui

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 10/27/10 02:07 PM

That was a great soundtrack. I remember loving it when it came out... geez was that over 20 years ago. Knopfler has always been one of my favorites.


Originally Posted By: Aidan
Wild Theme from the film Local Hero by Mark Knopfler smile
Posted by: octurn

Re: Yamaha CP1 versus CP5 - 10/28/10 04:15 PM

After some more avant-gardist pieces, more specifically DPBSD as composed by Dewster, I've also recorded a more classical piece on my CP5: Medtner: Tales Op. 26 no 1: Allegretto Frescamente.

Maybe this one gives you a more pleasant listen about the AP sound on the CP 5. I've changed two things here on the preset voice: turned off the master compressor (which I always do, still have to find where I can put this as a default setup when the piano is turned on. Secondly I've set the hammer hardness to hard1, which I like more than the normal hardness.